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Originally Posted by Legedi
I'm curious what the numbers are behind what makes a 20/41 build better than a 31/31 (or 30/31) 2H fury build. From what I see it comes down between a weapon spec (using axe right now, and +5% crit seems very good with flurry) and 5% damage, or +10% AP and +250 AP. Or does that +3% hit also help? I forget how much a 2Her needs against bosses.
Where is someone good with excel when you need them?  |
Edited onPatch 2.1.0.6692
The breaking point for where 10% AP/Rampage is better than 5% more damage from a weapon spec/2H spec is in the 2300-2400 range. On the lower end of that if your weapon DPS is on the lower end or you have a faster 2H.
But it also seems everyone forgets about +4 weapon skill, not huge, but still some DPS.
Personally, when I'm DPS I'm always 33/28 with imp TC and Demo so that I'm adding more to the raid than just my personal DPS. That and Rampage is a PIA to keep up without axe spec.
When I solo I like to cast Battle Shout after I get Flurry, just to see how long I can keep Flurry up. 40s is common, but my longest is 105s. In a raid scenario with more rage, it's damn well near 100%.
But it also seems everyone forgets about +4 weapon skill, not huge, but still some DPS.
Personally, when I'm DPS I'm always 33/28 with imp TC and Demo so that I'm adding more to the raid than just my personal DPS. That and Rampage is a PIA to keep up without axe spec.
When I solo I like to cast Battle Shout after I get Flurry, just to see how long I can keep Flurry up. 40s is common, but my longest is 105s. In a raid scenario with more rage, it's damn well near 100%.
Last edited by Grayson Carlyle : 05/29/07 at 6:33 PM. Reason: Clarifying
But if you get a glancing blow on your normal attack (white damage), you won't be able to generate enough rage for the next slam/WW/BT/HS.
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Originally Posted by Gronx
I've been wondering about exactly that problem, the heroic strike threat vs damage issue, that we even now, as dual wield dps warriors, runs into.
So, what can we, with the way the warrior mechanics currently works, do? Right now i'm playing around with 2-hand fury, which actually seems to have alot of potential, and before you go "dual wield or MS" on me like the typical 2 hand arms warrior. What i'm currently playing around with is basically to try to apply the basics of how hunters dps' to a warrior mechanics, centered around the use of improved slam. Improved slam is one awesome skill, not AP normalised, and when timed perfectly, you get a full non normalised attack, affected by impale, capable of proc'ing windfury (with a 2hander), for 0.5 seconds of lost auto attack time, if you apply it directly after a white attack. Applying a slam after each auto attack is the basics of what i try to do currently, then apply a special afterwards, and wait those 0.3 seconds for the next white attack. This also gives you an allmost 99% flurry uptime, as you basically have 2 special attacks for each white attack, all of those capable of proc'ing flurry, which means that the calculation for flurry would start to say 100% - the chance that i haven't landed a crit the last 8 attacks. assuming a 100% flurry uptime, this gives the 2 hand fury warrior, with a speed 3.7 weapon, an attack cycle looking like:  Auto - Slam - BT - Auto - Slam - WW - Auto - Slam - BT - Auto - Slam .... 0.0 0.5 1.5 3.46 3.96 4.96 6.92 7.42 7.92 9.88 10.38 ... A sidenote here, is that this build benefits greatly from an additional haste effect, a dragonspine trophy proc for example, would put the auto attack timer at 2.38, which with the 0.5 sec slam cast time, would give you a close to optimal 3 second cycle, with auto - slam - special - ready for next auto attack. Lets try to look at the differences between 2 hand fury and dual wield fury again: Dual wield gets: Roughly 20% more white damage (was what playing around with the spreadsheet gave me) A higher and more steady rage income (which is close to a non issue, as our ragegain in a raid enviroment is high) the ability to apply a weapon buff to your offhand Two hand fury gets: A higher flurry uptime Benefits more from windfury, as the build will be landing roughly as many mainhand + special attacks as the dual wield fury build, while proc'ing a big fat 2 hander hit, instead of a one hander attack. A pure damage to threat ratio, without HS adding additional threat. The bonus from 3/5 two hander specialisation, which you can get without missing any important PvE dps talents A higher percentage of damage comming from specials, thus making impale a better dps talent. No low offhand crit's canceling one's deep wound effect, thus making deep wound actually tick for ok ammounts relatively often. In a lagfree enviroment, this seems like two hand fury is more than capable of doing equal damage to a dual wield fury build, but if you take lag and human errors into equation, it becomes way more even. I've just started to play around with two hand fury, but it seems viable, i'm still cancelling some of my auto attacks due to making mistakes with slam and such, and still i'm close to the level of dps i had while dualwielding before. Aside from all this, it's also fun, at least to me, to try out something new, and this actually demands more from the warrior than just spamming skills, it requires some ammount of timing and adapting to haste proc's and such, thus making it more fun to play, at least for me. I sadly cannot find a dps spreadsheet taking these things into account, and since Excel hates me, the one i worked on myself, seems to have been corrupted, yay. But, if any of you could run this theory through a spreadsheet, it would be nice to see, even though i probably will be proved wrong in saying that 2 hand fury have as much a potential for dps as dual wield, without as much threat. |
Well, I guess it's good to know I'm not delusional about seeing a problem with future scaling. As to all the people discussing 2h fury vs 33/28 (Blood Frenzy). I'd personally do what one of the other warriors in here said, take Improved Thunderclap, Improved Demoralizing Shout and Blood Frenzy. Just so I don't feel like so much dead weight when my dps isn't spectacular.
Edited onPatch 2.1.0.6729
Here are two WWS parses you guys might find interesting:
Pre-patch: http://www.lossendil.com/wws/?report=alywu6fm5djhm
Post-patch: http://www.lossendil.com/wws/?report=hz1dxhnlbxy5q
Look at the Gruul attempts or kills otherwise you'll get their DPS while tanking trash/etc :P
Yatcher is DW Fury with the T2 BS axe, and Bigdumbcow is MS with imp. Slam with a Gorehowl. I think both had the same buffs each time, though I can't be sure.
Pre-patch: http://www.lossendil.com/wws/?report=alywu6fm5djhm
Post-patch: http://www.lossendil.com/wws/?report=hz1dxhnlbxy5q
Look at the Gruul attempts or kills otherwise you'll get their DPS while tanking trash/etc :P
Yatcher is DW Fury with the T2 BS axe, and Bigdumbcow is MS with imp. Slam with a Gorehowl. I think both had the same buffs each time, though I can't be sure.
Last edited by panny : 05/30/07 at 4:48 AM. Reason: Clarifying
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Originally Posted by panny
Here are two WWS parses you guys might find interesting:
Pre-patch: http://www.lossendil.com/wws/?report=alywu6fm5djhm Post-patch: http://www.lossendil.com/wws/?report=hz1dxhnlbxy5q Look at the Gruul attempts or kills otherwise you'll get their DPS while tanking trash/etc :P Yatcher is Fury with the T2 BS axe, and Bigdumbcow is MS with imp. slam with a Gorehowl. I think both had the same buffs each time, though I can't be sure. |
I see Heroic Strike, and Cleave, but not Slam >_>
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Originally Posted by Emeraude
Why isn't Yatcher using slam? Like at all?
I see Heroic Strike, and Cleave, but not Slam >_> |
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Originally Posted by Randor
Is he pvp-specced with imp intercept vs imp slam?
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2-hand Fury kinda kills my innerchild in PvP, it worked in WoW Classic with smaller HP pools and smaller heals, in BC healing is so powerful and HP pools are too high, you need MS, errrr, but that's a discussion for another thread obviously.
Looking at talent builds, I wonder how 27-34 would compare with 20-41. Even with Flurry and +haste, Rampage isn't too attractive for me with a 2hander. Basically it would be imp Zerker vs weapon spec and Sweeping Strikes.
2h MS = PvP DW Fury = PvE .... plain and simple! Yes both form can get a handle on it, but fury with a 2h seems to be a waste. My raid spec DW AP was 3800+ and with a 2h'er it was about 2700ish. The constant hits and barrages of maneuvres were fun to do.
I may be wrong with this, maybe not. Please extrapolate on this one, as i fear a 2h MS warrior doesnt have a place right now other than pvp.
aI am curious on experiences and sheets or redundant stats and mathematics is not too appealing. Concrete proof
I may be wrong with this, maybe not. Please extrapolate on this one, as i fear a 2h MS warrior doesnt have a place right now other than pvp.
aI am curious on experiences and sheets or redundant stats and mathematics is not too appealing. Concrete proof
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Originally Posted by Emeraude
Why isn't Yatcher using slam? Like at all?
I see Heroic Strike, and Cleave, but not Slam >_> |
Yatcher is DW Fury with Black Planar Edge and (I think) Vindicator's Brand. BDC is MS with imp. Slam.
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Originally Posted by Domoniac
2h MS = PvP DW Fury = PvE .... plain and simple!
I may be wrong with this, maybe not. Please extrapolate on this one, as i fear a 2h MS warrior doesnt have a place right now other than pvp. |
Anyways, a properly geared DW Fury warrior with enough crit for perma-flurry, enough attack power to make bloodthirsts do any damage AND enough hit to avoid strings of misses will likely do more damage on a single target mob.
But on mutiple mobs/packs, or a target that bleeds a MS or 2hand Fury warrior will shine. Also, Blood Frenzy helps the entire party on bleedable mobs. Ask a feral druid or a rogue if they'd rather be grouped with a MS warrior with Blood Frenzy or a DW Fury one.
Also, I find that a 2hand warrior will likely be more inclined to offer other benefits for a raid, demo shout, PH, imp thunderclap then a DWer focusing on maximizing their DPS cycles, but your mileage may vary on that.
And you say that you enjoyed DW; well, many people enjoy swinging a big ole weapon around. And the damage can be done with a imp Slam build. With Flurry, Mongoose procs and whatnot, I can swing my Mooncleaver around at around 2.4 seconds, crit steadily with almost 40% crit rate self-buffed and still hit slams and MSes in the 2k neighborhood with 1990 attack power (atm) self-buffed. Throw in pots, consumables and raid buffs, and it only gets better.
But rather than saying take a 2hand-wielding warrior over a DWer, I think a great melee group can consist of both (and 2 cheers for Commanding AND Battle shouts for a melee group. Get a MSers, a shammy, a feral druid, a rogue and either another rogue or a DW fury warrior and you have a potent melee group.
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Originally Posted by Domoniac
2h MS = PvP DW Fury = PvE .... plain and simple! Yes both form can get a handle on it, but fury with a 2h seems to be a waste.
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What's your Fury build? is Rampage viable with a 2hander? Slam spam to max it?
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Originally Posted by Domoniac
2h MS = PvP DW Fury = PvE .... plain and simple! Yes both form can get a handle on it, but fury with a 2h seems to be a waste. My raid spec DW AP was 3800+ and with a 2h'er it was about 2700ish. The constant hits and barrages of maneuvres were fun to do.
I may be wrong with this, maybe not. Please extrapolate on this one, as i fear a 2h MS warrior doesnt have a place right now other than pvp. aI am curious on experiences and sheets or redundant stats and mathematics is not too appealing. Concrete proof |
The issue brought up here, was specificly the issue with HS being the only good ragedump past BT/WW at cooldowns, and HS adding extra aggro (cleave adds a bit as well), the solution to that might just be two hand fury, which you are writing off as a silly spec.
A thing to keep in mind is, dps scales way better than threat building, so might as well prepare to keep the damage/aggro as high as possible, as it probably will be an issue in the future, even with salvation on.
Edited onPatch 2.1.0.6729
| It irritates me to death everytime I see a post from someone who says that 2-handers for a Warrior are nothing more then play things for PvP and aren't true DPS. My guild has a tradition of having many 2-hand Fury Warriors, they top damage meters, they are infinately easier to gear up and keep competitive with the rest of the raid with the right skill/experience. I myself am keeping that tradition alive and well. Does DW come out ahead? Perhaps. Does 2-hand put up close or similar numbers with a Fury build? Absolutely. |
Another thing that annoys me about 2h builds is on trash clearing when something is about to die (or just whenever actually) and it moves right before your last slam lands. It happens a lot, and it's especially bad on any boss encounter that doesn't allow you to just stay in a fixed position the majority of the time. Slam is what makes any 2h build good (and of course Windfury), and if you are whiffing Slams and having an excess of rage at all times, you may as well just go DW and dump rage through HS. I do very good with my current 2h setup, but I also get very annoyed with it while using it. I never got "annoyed" while DW other than the times where I wouldn't crit for 8 seconds and have to build Rampage back up from zero.
Last edited by Graul : 05/30/07 at 12:04 PM.
Fair enough, it was just what I had on when I hit 70 had one of those 93.x dps 2h'ers and it was slow as hell in questing, and in instances it was hard to maximize its impact because of Blizzard's design to almost eliminate melee. Rogues everywhere were the most frustrated. Alot has changed since then, and as everyone learned the instances you could make it viable to be melee heavy and get it done.
It is deffinitely the build and the player that will make either form of the warrior effective. And I had changed back to protection just before the 2.1 patch as our raid needed it and I was getting annoyed by the dps plate gear available. Pretty much any of the decent gear is raid and heroic only. Which in essence really as a whole screwed the dps warrior over to some degree. Which is probably why I have seen so many in the pvp/arena to get something decent for their damage outputs. There were some good dps quest items however which were nice, but few and far between. Natasha's choker, chestplate of A'dal come to mind.
And on a last note, ya druids, and priests can do very good dps. Even holy priests with smiting can do fairly average dps which surprised me. Not groundbreaking or leader of the group, but more than I would have given them credit for.
It is deffinitely the build and the player that will make either form of the warrior effective. And I had changed back to protection just before the 2.1 patch as our raid needed it and I was getting annoyed by the dps plate gear available. Pretty much any of the decent gear is raid and heroic only. Which in essence really as a whole screwed the dps warrior over to some degree. Which is probably why I have seen so many in the pvp/arena to get something decent for their damage outputs. There were some good dps quest items however which were nice, but few and far between. Natasha's choker, chestplate of A'dal come to mind.
And on a last note, ya druids, and priests can do very good dps. Even holy priests with smiting can do fairly average dps which surprised me. Not groundbreaking or leader of the group, but more than I would have given them credit for.
I think this is all based on having Windfury...which is both a valid point, and completely invalid at the same time; like basing your dps off having a feral druid in your group.
I personally have no issues with threat with salvation on. Sure I COULD have Blessing of Might, just like casters COULD have wisdom, but thats what you gotta do to keep your threat down.
As for 2h/1h....back in the day on select fights I could keep ahead of the fury warriors when we all had full BWL loot and I had Ashkandi, but fury had more consistant dps. Its tough to say which is better PvE, but I'd definately lean towards DW fury. When I replaced my Lunar Crescent with The Planar Edge and a 53dps green offhand, my raid boss dps immediately went up. Then the gladiator off-hand put me on top of the charts.
Its tough to judge warriors sometimes, though...there is another fury in my guild with almost equal stats, but WAY behind in dps. Its tough to say if they maintained their buffs, used the right abilities, etc.
I personally have no issues with threat with salvation on. Sure I COULD have Blessing of Might, just like casters COULD have wisdom, but thats what you gotta do to keep your threat down.
As for 2h/1h....back in the day on select fights I could keep ahead of the fury warriors when we all had full BWL loot and I had Ashkandi, but fury had more consistant dps. Its tough to say which is better PvE, but I'd definately lean towards DW fury. When I replaced my Lunar Crescent with The Planar Edge and a 53dps green offhand, my raid boss dps immediately went up. Then the gladiator off-hand put me on top of the charts.
Its tough to judge warriors sometimes, though...there is another fury in my guild with almost equal stats, but WAY behind in dps. Its tough to say if they maintained their buffs, used the right abilities, etc.
| I think this is all based on having Windfury...which is both a valid point, and completely invalid at the same time |
2h builds are underperformers without WF, or rather, they don't do anywhere near as well as without it compared to DW, that does work better with WF as well, but is pretty good without it too.
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Originally Posted by Graul
Not from the perspective of someone that has been raiding as Horde since release
2h builds are underperformers without WF, or rather, they don't do anywhere near as well as without it compared to DW, that does work better with WF as well, but is pretty good without it too. |
But thats the thing, my friend plays horde and I'll ask him if he got windfury on the last raid, and 7/10 times he says no, that the shaman just dropped agility or spell damage.
I'll have to pull out my 2h next kara run, see how I do, but I'm guessing without the spec for it, it'll be a wash at best.
I top out meters without Windfury, with a Shaman I can compete with the Rogues, without a Shaman I'm directly behind the Rogues and in front of the casters. It's almost always Rogues->Me->Rest of the Raid.
Generalizations like "i top out meters" don't make sense. Every fight is different, every guild is different...without raw numbers (preferably a WWS or at least a screenshot of your SWS) it's meaningless. We've had MS Warriors come in 3rd on Karathress and that's about it in terms of big DPS Warrior numbers. Maybe Karazhan, especially on full clears...but please back things up with numbers.
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Originally Posted by Ghando
Generalizations like "i top out meters" don't make sense. Every fight is different, every guild is different...without raw numbers (preferably a WWS or at least a screenshot of your SWS) it's meaningless. We've had MS Warriors come in 3rd on Karathress and that's about it in terms of big DPS Warrior numbers. Maybe Karazhan, especially on full clears...but please back things up with numbers.
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Originally Posted by Salted
Often its a relative statement. "Better than the rogues" or "better than when I was fury" don't need quantifiers as they are purely anecdotal statements based on the personal experiece in a fight or in our guild.
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However, I do agree with some of what has been said here. Using a 2hander is decent damage but at high levels of progression, will fall short of top 5 IMO. (assuming you have competitive dps that is restricted by your tanks abilitiy to hold aggro, instead of your dps's ability to output damage)
Looking at kill shots of somewhat "unfarmed" content, I have yet to see a 2h wielding warrior do enough damage to thorougly warrant his raid spot for the sole purpose of dps. This is not to say that 2h wielding warriors are useless in a raid environment because they are useful OT's and sources of debuffs (imp demo, bf, ms) while doing meaningful dps in a situation that might warrant it (hydoss aoe, tidewalker murlocks, solarian adds).
But in all truth, I do not find my raid spot deserved unless I'm ATLEAST in top 5 damage done consistantly on a non-gimic fight because of personal beliefs in terms of filling my "dps role." And I feel that being DW Fury is the only way to achieve this damage on a consistant basis. And, my feelings are confirmed when I look at kill-shots where dwing warriors are doing competitive damage that is putting them in a top5 spot.
A lot of the proof I needed to warrant going fury was found on this board or on random world first SS's on WoR's. People who seemed to be using DW fury to its full effectiveness that I could see from such screenshots were Modrack of Juggernaut, Alexandra of Exanimus (i think?) and Prophet of Curse.
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Originally Posted by Crazypie
But in all truth, I do not find my raid spot deserved unless I'm ATLEAST in top 5 damage done consistantly on a non-gimic fight because of personal beliefs in terms of filling my "dps role." And I feel that being DW Fury is the only way to achieve this damage on a consistant basis. And, my feelings are confirmed when I look at kill-shots where dwing warriors are doing competitive damage that is putting them in a top5 spot. . |
So perhaps looking at raw DPS is the only effective way of measuring the validity of 2h specs and any ranking within a Raid is meaningless.
I've been waiting on the Prince to drop Decapitator for me. I've got his dagger for my OH, but he's been fussy about giving up any axes. In the mean time, I've been 31/30 with Axe of the Gronn Lords and I've been regularly noting my DPS on Gruul and other bosses where I can go all out DPS. Once I get my Prince Decapitator, I'll respec to DW again and then should be able to accurately determine which is more effective in my Raid at our stage of progression and gearing.
For me to report that I was second on our last Gruul kill is meaningless. it doesn't say how skillful I am or if I'm using my abilities to their best advantage. But since it could be assumed I'd not get any better or any smarter by changing specs, looking at the raw DPS change when I respec may have something to say about the relative merit of each spec in my Raid.
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Originally Posted by Legedi
I'm curious what the numbers are behind what makes a 20/41 build better than a 31/31 (or 30/31) 2H fury build. From what I see it comes down between a weapon spec (using axe right now, and +5% crit seems very good with flurry) and 5% damage, or +10% AP and +250 AP. Or does that +3% hit also help? I forget how much a 2Her needs against bosses.
Where is someone good with excel when you need them? |
Edited onPatch 2.1.0.6692
The breaking point for where 10% AP/Rampage is better than 5% more damage from a weapon spec/2H spec is in the 2300-2400 range. On the lower end of that if your weapon DPS is on the lower end or you have a faster 2H.
But it also seems everyone forgets about +4 weapon skill, not huge, but still some DPS.
Personally, when I'm DPS I'm always 33/28 with imp TC and Demo so that I'm adding more to the raid than just my personal DPS. That and Rampage is a PIA to keep up without axe spec.
When I solo I like to cast Battle Shout after I get Flurry, just to see how long I can keep Flurry up. 40s is common, but my longest is 105s. In a raid scenario with more rage, it's damn well near 100%.
But it also seems everyone forgets about +4 weapon skill, not huge, but still some DPS.
Personally, when I'm DPS I'm always 33/28 with imp TC and Demo so that I'm adding more to the raid than just my personal DPS. That and Rampage is a PIA to keep up without axe spec.
When I solo I like to cast Battle Shout after I get Flurry, just to see how long I can keep Flurry up. 40s is common, but my longest is 105s. In a raid scenario with more rage, it's damn well near 100%.
Last edited by Grayson Carlyle : 05/29/07 at 6:33 PM. Reason: Clarifying
But if you get a glancing blow on your normal attack (white damage), you won't be able to generate enough rage for the next slam/WW/BT/HS.
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Originally Posted by Gronx
I've been wondering about exactly that problem, the heroic strike threat vs damage issue, that we even now, as dual wield dps warriors, runs into.
So, what can we, with the way the warrior mechanics currently works, do? Right now i'm playing around with 2-hand fury, which actually seems to have alot of potential, and before you go "dual wield or MS" on me like the typical 2 hand arms warrior. What i'm currently playing around with is basically to try to apply the basics of how hunters dps' to a warrior mechanics, centered around the use of improved slam. Improved slam is one awesome skill, not AP normalised, and when timed perfectly, you get a full non normalised attack, affected by impale, capable of proc'ing windfury (with a 2hander), for 0.5 seconds of lost auto attack time, if you apply it directly after a white attack. Applying a slam after each auto attack is the basics of what i try to do currently, then apply a special afterwards, and wait those 0.3 seconds for the next white attack. This also gives you an allmost 99% flurry uptime, as you basically have 2 special attacks for each white attack, all of those capable of proc'ing flurry, which means that the calculation for flurry would start to say 100% - the chance that i haven't landed a crit the last 8 attacks. assuming a 100% flurry uptime, this gives the 2 hand fury warrior, with a speed 3.7 weapon, an attack cycle looking like: Auto - Slam - BT - Auto - Slam - WW - Auto - Slam - BT - Auto - Slam .... 0.0 0.5 1.5 3.46 3.96 4.96 6.92 7.42 7.92 9.88 10.38 ... A sidenote here, is that this build benefits greatly from an additional haste effect, a dragonspine trophy proc for example, would put the auto attack timer at 2.38, which with the 0.5 sec slam cast time, would give you a close to optimal 3 second cycle, with auto - slam - special - ready for next auto attack. Lets try to look at the differences between 2 hand fury and dual wield fury again: Dual wield gets: Roughly 20% more white damage (was what playing around with the spreadsheet gave me) A higher and more steady rage income (which is close to a non issue, as our ragegain in a raid enviroment is high) the ability to apply a weapon buff to your offhand Two hand fury gets: A higher flurry uptime Benefits more from windfury, as the build will be landing roughly as many mainhand + special attacks as the dual wield fury build, while proc'ing a big fat 2 hander hit, instead of a one hander attack. A pure damage to threat ratio, without HS adding additional threat. The bonus from 3/5 two hander specialisation, which you can get without missing any important PvE dps talents A higher percentage of damage comming from specials, thus making impale a better dps talent. No low offhand crit's canceling one's deep wound effect, thus making deep wound actually tick for ok ammounts relatively often. In a lagfree enviroment, this seems like two hand fury is more than capable of doing equal damage to a dual wield fury build, but if you take lag and human errors into equation, it becomes way more even. I've just started to play around with two hand fury, but it seems viable, i'm still cancelling some of my auto attacks due to making mistakes with slam and such, and still i'm close to the level of dps i had while dualwielding before. Aside from all this, it's also fun, at least to me, to try out something new, and this actually demands more from the warrior than just spamming skills, it requires some ammount of timing and adapting to haste proc's and such, thus making it more fun to play, at least for me. I sadly cannot find a dps spreadsheet taking these things into account, and since Excel hates me, the one i worked on myself, seems to have been corrupted, yay. But, if any of you could run this theory through a spreadsheet, it would be nice to see, even though i probably will be proved wrong in saying that 2 hand fury have as much a potential for dps as dual wield, without as much threat. |
Well, I guess it's good to know I'm not delusional about seeing a problem with future scaling. As to all the people discussing 2h fury vs 33/28 (Blood Frenzy). I'd personally do what one of the other warriors in here said, take Improved Thunderclap, Improved Demoralizing Shout and Blood Frenzy. Just so I don't feel like so much dead weight when my dps isn't spectacular.
Edited onPatch 2.1.0.6729
Here are two WWS parses you guys might find interesting:
Pre-patch: http://www.lossendil.com/wws/?report=alywu6fm5djhm
Post-patch: http://www.lossendil.com/wws/?report=hz1dxhnlbxy5q
Look at the Gruul attempts or kills otherwise you'll get their DPS while tanking trash/etc :P
Yatcher is DW Fury with the T2 BS axe, and Bigdumbcow is MS with imp. Slam with a Gorehowl. I think both had the same buffs each time, though I can't be sure.
Pre-patch: http://www.lossendil.com/wws/?report=alywu6fm5djhm
Post-patch: http://www.lossendil.com/wws/?report=hz1dxhnlbxy5q
Look at the Gruul attempts or kills otherwise you'll get their DPS while tanking trash/etc :P
Yatcher is DW Fury with the T2 BS axe, and Bigdumbcow is MS with imp. Slam with a Gorehowl. I think both had the same buffs each time, though I can't be sure.
Last edited by panny : 05/30/07 at 4:48 AM. Reason: Clarifying
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Originally Posted by panny
Here are two WWS parses you guys might find interesting:
Pre-patch: http://www.lossendil.com/wws/?report=alywu6fm5djhm Post-patch: http://www.lossendil.com/wws/?report=hz1dxhnlbxy5q Look at the Gruul attempts or kills otherwise you'll get their DPS while tanking trash/etc :P Yatcher is Fury with the T2 BS axe, and Bigdumbcow is MS with imp. slam with a Gorehowl. I think both had the same buffs each time, though I can't be sure. |
I see Heroic Strike, and Cleave, but not Slam >_>
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Originally Posted by Emeraude
Why isn't Yatcher using slam? Like at all?
I see Heroic Strike, and Cleave, but not Slam >_> |
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Originally Posted by Randor
Is he pvp-specced with imp intercept vs imp slam?
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2-hand Fury kinda kills my innerchild in PvP, it worked in WoW Classic with smaller HP pools and smaller heals, in BC healing is so powerful and HP pools are too high, you need MS, errrr, but that's a discussion for another thread obviously.
Looking at talent builds, I wonder how 27-34 would compare with 20-41. Even with Flurry and +haste, Rampage isn't too attractive for me with a 2hander. Basically it would be imp Zerker vs weapon spec and Sweeping Strikes.
2h MS = PvP DW Fury = PvE .... plain and simple! Yes both form can get a handle on it, but fury with a 2h seems to be a waste. My raid spec DW AP was 3800+ and with a 2h'er it was about 2700ish. The constant hits and barrages of maneuvres were fun to do.
I may be wrong with this, maybe not. Please extrapolate on this one, as i fear a 2h MS warrior doesnt have a place right now other than pvp.
aI am curious on experiences and sheets or redundant stats and mathematics is not too appealing. Concrete proof
I may be wrong with this, maybe not. Please extrapolate on this one, as i fear a 2h MS warrior doesnt have a place right now other than pvp.
aI am curious on experiences and sheets or redundant stats and mathematics is not too appealing. Concrete proof
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Originally Posted by Emeraude
Why isn't Yatcher using slam? Like at all?
I see Heroic Strike, and Cleave, but not Slam >_> |
Yatcher is DW Fury with Black Planar Edge and (I think) Vindicator's Brand. BDC is MS with imp. Slam.
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Originally Posted by Domoniac
2h MS = PvP DW Fury = PvE .... plain and simple!
I may be wrong with this, maybe not. Please extrapolate on this one, as i fear a 2h MS warrior doesnt have a place right now other than pvp. |
Anyways, a properly geared DW Fury warrior with enough crit for perma-flurry, enough attack power to make bloodthirsts do any damage AND enough hit to avoid strings of misses will likely do more damage on a single target mob.
But on mutiple mobs/packs, or a target that bleeds a MS or 2hand Fury warrior will shine. Also, Blood Frenzy helps the entire party on bleedable mobs. Ask a feral druid or a rogue if they'd rather be grouped with a MS warrior with Blood Frenzy or a DW Fury one.
Also, I find that a 2hand warrior will likely be more inclined to offer other benefits for a raid, demo shout, PH, imp thunderclap then a DWer focusing on maximizing their DPS cycles, but your mileage may vary on that.
And you say that you enjoyed DW; well, many people enjoy swinging a big ole weapon around. And the damage can be done with a imp Slam build. With Flurry, Mongoose procs and whatnot, I can swing my Mooncleaver around at around 2.4 seconds, crit steadily with almost 40% crit rate self-buffed and still hit slams and MSes in the 2k neighborhood with 1990 attack power (atm) self-buffed. Throw in pots, consumables and raid buffs, and it only gets better.
But rather than saying take a 2hand-wielding warrior over a DWer, I think a great melee group can consist of both (and 2 cheers for Commanding AND Battle shouts for a melee group. Get a MSers, a shammy, a feral druid, a rogue and either another rogue or a DW fury warrior and you have a potent melee group.
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Originally Posted by Domoniac
2h MS = PvP DW Fury = PvE .... plain and simple! Yes both form can get a handle on it, but fury with a 2h seems to be a waste.
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What's your Fury build? is Rampage viable with a 2hander? Slam spam to max it?
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Originally Posted by Domoniac
2h MS = PvP DW Fury = PvE .... plain and simple! Yes both form can get a handle on it, but fury with a 2h seems to be a waste. My raid spec DW AP was 3800+ and with a 2h'er it was about 2700ish. The constant hits and barrages of maneuvres were fun to do.
I may be wrong with this, maybe not. Please extrapolate on this one, as i fear a 2h MS warrior doesnt have a place right now other than pvp. aI am curious on experiences and sheets or redundant stats and mathematics is not too appealing. Concrete proof |
The issue brought up here, was specificly the issue with HS being the only good ragedump past BT/WW at cooldowns, and HS adding extra aggro (cleave adds a bit as well), the solution to that might just be two hand fury, which you are writing off as a silly spec.
A thing to keep in mind is, dps scales way better than threat building, so might as well prepare to keep the damage/aggro as high as possible, as it probably will be an issue in the future, even with salvation on.
Edited onPatch 2.1.0.6729
| It irritates me to death everytime I see a post from someone who says that 2-handers for a Warrior are nothing more then play things for PvP and aren't true DPS. My guild has a tradition of having many 2-hand Fury Warriors, they top damage meters, they are infinately easier to gear up and keep competitive with the rest of the raid with the right skill/experience. I myself am keeping that tradition alive and well. Does DW come out ahead? Perhaps. Does 2-hand put up close or similar numbers with a Fury build? Absolutely. |
Another thing that annoys me about 2h builds is on trash clearing when something is about to die (or just whenever actually) and it moves right before your last slam lands. It happens a lot, and it's especially bad on any boss encounter that doesn't allow you to just stay in a fixed position the majority of the time. Slam is what makes any 2h build good (and of course Windfury), and if you are whiffing Slams and having an excess of rage at all times, you may as well just go DW and dump rage through HS. I do very good with my current 2h setup, but I also get very annoyed with it while using it. I never got "annoyed" while DW other than the times where I wouldn't crit for 8 seconds and have to build Rampage back up from zero.
Last edited by Graul : 05/30/07 at 12:04 PM.
Fair enough, it was just what I had on when I hit 70 had one of those 93.x dps 2h'ers and it was slow as hell in questing, and in instances it was hard to maximize its impact because of Blizzard's design to almost eliminate melee. Rogues everywhere were the most frustrated. Alot has changed since then, and as everyone learned the instances you could make it viable to be melee heavy and get it done.
It is deffinitely the build and the player that will make either form of the warrior effective. And I had changed back to protection just before the 2.1 patch as our raid needed it and I was getting annoyed by the dps plate gear available. Pretty much any of the decent gear is raid and heroic only. Which in essence really as a whole screwed the dps warrior over to some degree. Which is probably why I have seen so many in the pvp/arena to get something decent for their damage outputs. There were some good dps quest items however which were nice, but few and far between. Natasha's choker, chestplate of A'dal come to mind.
And on a last note, ya druids, and priests can do very good dps. Even holy priests with smiting can do fairly average dps which surprised me. Not groundbreaking or leader of the group, but more than I would have given them credit for.
It is deffinitely the build and the player that will make either form of the warrior effective. And I had changed back to protection just before the 2.1 patch as our raid needed it and I was getting annoyed by the dps plate gear available. Pretty much any of the decent gear is raid and heroic only. Which in essence really as a whole screwed the dps warrior over to some degree. Which is probably why I have seen so many in the pvp/arena to get something decent for their damage outputs. There were some good dps quest items however which were nice, but few and far between. Natasha's choker, chestplate of A'dal come to mind.
And on a last note, ya druids, and priests can do very good dps. Even holy priests with smiting can do fairly average dps which surprised me. Not groundbreaking or leader of the group, but more than I would have given them credit for.
I think this is all based on having Windfury...which is both a valid point, and completely invalid at the same time; like basing your dps off having a feral druid in your group.
I personally have no issues with threat with salvation on. Sure I COULD have Blessing of Might, just like casters COULD have wisdom, but thats what you gotta do to keep your threat down.
As for 2h/1h....back in the day on select fights I could keep ahead of the fury warriors when we all had full BWL loot and I had Ashkandi, but fury had more consistant dps. Its tough to say which is better PvE, but I'd definately lean towards DW fury. When I replaced my Lunar Crescent with The Planar Edge and a 53dps green offhand, my raid boss dps immediately went up. Then the gladiator off-hand put me on top of the charts.
Its tough to judge warriors sometimes, though...there is another fury in my guild with almost equal stats, but WAY behind in dps. Its tough to say if they maintained their buffs, used the right abilities, etc.
I personally have no issues with threat with salvation on. Sure I COULD have Blessing of Might, just like casters COULD have wisdom, but thats what you gotta do to keep your threat down.
As for 2h/1h....back in the day on select fights I could keep ahead of the fury warriors when we all had full BWL loot and I had Ashkandi, but fury had more consistant dps. Its tough to say which is better PvE, but I'd definately lean towards DW fury. When I replaced my Lunar Crescent with The Planar Edge and a 53dps green offhand, my raid boss dps immediately went up. Then the gladiator off-hand put me on top of the charts.
Its tough to judge warriors sometimes, though...there is another fury in my guild with almost equal stats, but WAY behind in dps. Its tough to say if they maintained their buffs, used the right abilities, etc.
| I think this is all based on having Windfury...which is both a valid point, and completely invalid at the same time |
2h builds are underperformers without WF, or rather, they don't do anywhere near as well as without it compared to DW, that does work better with WF as well, but is pretty good without it too.
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Originally Posted by Graul
Not from the perspective of someone that has been raiding as Horde since release
2h builds are underperformers without WF, or rather, they don't do anywhere near as well as without it compared to DW, that does work better with WF as well, but is pretty good without it too. |
But thats the thing, my friend plays horde and I'll ask him if he got windfury on the last raid, and 7/10 times he says no, that the shaman just dropped agility or spell damage.
I'll have to pull out my 2h next kara run, see how I do, but I'm guessing without the spec for it, it'll be a wash at best.
I top out meters without Windfury, with a Shaman I can compete with the Rogues, without a Shaman I'm directly behind the Rogues and in front of the casters. It's almost always Rogues->Me->Rest of the Raid.
Generalizations like "i top out meters" don't make sense. Every fight is different, every guild is different...without raw numbers (preferably a WWS or at least a screenshot of your SWS) it's meaningless. We've had MS Warriors come in 3rd on Karathress and that's about it in terms of big DPS Warrior numbers. Maybe Karazhan, especially on full clears...but please back things up with numbers.
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Originally Posted by Ghando
Generalizations like "i top out meters" don't make sense. Every fight is different, every guild is different...without raw numbers (preferably a WWS or at least a screenshot of your SWS) it's meaningless. We've had MS Warriors come in 3rd on Karathress and that's about it in terms of big DPS Warrior numbers. Maybe Karazhan, especially on full clears...but please back things up with numbers.
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Originally Posted by Salted
Often its a relative statement. "Better than the rogues" or "better than when I was fury" don't need quantifiers as they are purely anecdotal statements based on the personal experiece in a fight or in our guild.
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However, I do agree with some of what has been said here. Using a 2hander is decent damage but at high levels of progression, will fall short of top 5 IMO. (assuming you have competitive dps that is restricted by your tanks abilitiy to hold aggro, instead of your dps's ability to output damage)
Looking at kill shots of somewhat "unfarmed" content, I have yet to see a 2h wielding warrior do enough damage to thorougly warrant his raid spot for the sole purpose of dps. This is not to say that 2h wielding warriors are useless in a raid environment because they are useful OT's and sources of debuffs (imp demo, bf, ms) while doing meaningful dps in a situation that might warrant it (hydoss aoe, tidewalker murlocks, solarian adds).
But in all truth, I do not find my raid spot deserved unless I'm ATLEAST in top 5 damage done consistantly on a non-gimic fight because of personal beliefs in terms of filling my "dps role." And I feel that being DW Fury is the only way to achieve this damage on a consistant basis. And, my feelings are confirmed when I look at kill-shots where dwing warriors are doing competitive damage that is putting them in a top5 spot.
A lot of the proof I needed to warrant going fury was found on this board or on random world first SS's on WoR's. People who seemed to be using DW fury to its full effectiveness that I could see from such screenshots were Modrack of Juggernaut, Alexandra of Exanimus (i think?) and Prophet of Curse.
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Originally Posted by Crazypie
But in all truth, I do not find my raid spot deserved unless I'm ATLEAST in top 5 damage done consistantly on a non-gimic fight because of personal beliefs in terms of filling my "dps role." And I feel that being DW Fury is the only way to achieve this damage on a consistant basis. And, my feelings are confirmed when I look at kill-shots where dwing warriors are doing competitive damage that is putting them in a top5 spot. . |
So perhaps looking at raw DPS is the only effective way of measuring the validity of 2h specs and any ranking within a Raid is meaningless.
I've been waiting on the Prince to drop Decapitator for me. I've got his dagger for my OH, but he's been fussy about giving up any axes. In the mean time, I've been 31/30 with Axe of the Gronn Lords and I've been regularly noting my DPS on Gruul and other bosses where I can go all out DPS. Once I get my Prince Decapitator, I'll respec to DW again and then should be able to accurately determine which is more effective in my Raid at our stage of progression and gearing.
For me to report that I was second on our last Gruul kill is meaningless. it doesn't say how skillful I am or if I'm using my abilities to their best advantage. But since it could be assumed I'd not get any better or any smarter by changing specs, looking at the raw DPS change when I respec may have something to say about the relative merit of each spec in my Raid.
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Originally Posted by Salted
On alliance we just got shaman, and its horrible when they drop the spell dmg totem instead of WF.
But thats the thing, my friend plays horde and I'll ask him if he got windfury on the last raid, and 7/10 times he says no, that the shaman just dropped agility or spell damage. I'll have to pull out my 2h next kara run, see how I do, but I'm guessing without the spec for it, it'll be a wash at best. |
A Feral tank will obviously always want agi, not only does it provide a huge dodge buff, but threat generation goes stratospheric with the extra crits.
Correct me if Im wrong but I am not mistaken doesn't +haste rating lower your rage generation at some point, and the T6 instances got lots of gear with haste rating.
That means more white DPS and less yellow DPS, which is good if I've understood you correctly?
That means more white DPS and less yellow DPS, which is good if I've understood you correctly?
I have two answers to the OP's question.
In regards to the "future" of DPS Warriors, I'm quite certain there will always be a case for them in a raid group. Sure, if your guild is really trying to min-max then Feral Druid B or Protection Paladin C might be a better choice - but for those who don't go to such extremes the DPS warrior will always have a place as a tank up until the point you reach the boss encounter and you want him to DPS.
The builds we have, while having some lacklustre talents - do include some very useful group buffs: Blood Frenzy, Imp. Shouts, TC, Demo etc.. which will likely justify the case of having a DPS warrior in the raid. I won't expound on those further as it's a discussion which has been thoroughly canvassed before.
In regards to the DPS warrior's personal DPS:
This is largely limited by your tank. I read lots of threads, especially on Blizzard forums, asking for us to have a threat wipe or reduction. It's my feeling that we will _never_ get this as it largely distinguishes us from the Rogues. (As an aside, I prefer the "Berserker" aspect of Warrior DPS, than the safety of Rogue damage, so to say).
With BoS, you would have to be pulling out a massive amount of DPS to top a skilled tank - I think the number quoted earlier was around 1700+ DPS?
Since I'm quite confident that you are not near this cap, then reducing your rage by using Heroic Strike is a viable solution to managing your rage gen/skill use.
I personally don't see a problem for DPS warriors now - I do however see a potential issue for tanks if our threat doesn't scale up with the DPS gains made by the raid as a whole - but that's beyond the scope of your question.
There are always going to be "gimmick" fights with aggro reductions on the tank, and so forth which limit the DPS Warrior.
Do you have any postable stats of your TPS in comparison with your tank and your damage output to look at?
In regards to the "future" of DPS Warriors, I'm quite certain there will always be a case for them in a raid group. Sure, if your guild is really trying to min-max then Feral Druid B or Protection Paladin C might be a better choice - but for those who don't go to such extremes the DPS warrior will always have a place as a tank up until the point you reach the boss encounter and you want him to DPS.
The builds we have, while having some lacklustre talents - do include some very useful group buffs: Blood Frenzy, Imp. Shouts, TC, Demo etc.. which will likely justify the case of having a DPS warrior in the raid. I won't expound on those further as it's a discussion which has been thoroughly canvassed before.
In regards to the DPS warrior's personal DPS:
This is largely limited by your tank. I read lots of threads, especially on Blizzard forums, asking for us to have a threat wipe or reduction. It's my feeling that we will _never_ get this as it largely distinguishes us from the Rogues. (As an aside, I prefer the "Berserker" aspect of Warrior DPS, than the safety of Rogue damage, so to say).
With BoS, you would have to be pulling out a massive amount of DPS to top a skilled tank - I think the number quoted earlier was around 1700+ DPS?
Since I'm quite confident that you are not near this cap, then reducing your rage by using Heroic Strike is a viable solution to managing your rage gen/skill use.
I personally don't see a problem for DPS warriors now - I do however see a potential issue for tanks if our threat doesn't scale up with the DPS gains made by the raid as a whole - but that's beyond the scope of your question.
There are always going to be "gimmick" fights with aggro reductions on the tank, and so forth which limit the DPS Warrior.
Do you have any postable stats of your TPS in comparison with your tank and your damage output to look at?
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Originally Posted by Tzan
How is ranking in your top 5 an effective measure of performance? Not saying it's the case, but what if you ran with a bunch of ninnies? Being in the top 5 would be meaningless. What if you were running with a bunch of gods? Then being 7th could mean you were getting the absolute maximum DPS possible. Do DPS dealers who rank below 5th on your Raid not deserve their slots? By setting 5th as the magic number, clearly there are going to be a number of undeserving players attending.
So perhaps looking at raw DPS is the only effective way of measuring the validity of 2h specs and any ranking within a Raid is meaningless. |
3.5million hp
3.5*(1-.8)=595k-700k
(595k-700k)/60sec = 9916 - 11666dps/14dps classes= 708 - 833 dps
we have 7 healers, 2 hybrid tanks, and 2 MT's for that fight so 14DPS
700+ dps average on our dps is pretty indicative that our dps doesn't suck, and we're currently working on Leo so we're obviously not a bad guild.
Being top 5 damage done of a guild that can consistently push 700+dps average pretty much guarantees that when a raid is forming, you will selected over somebody who consistently places lower then you. It also means that you become an asset to the guild in terms of dps, that simply isn't a replaceable spot holder, especially considering warriors aren't exactly the biggest source of utility.
It's cool if you believe 2h warriors are viable, but to me atleast, viable doesn't mean much when you strive for being an irreplaceable asset to your guild's dps.
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Originally Posted by Voxx
As for Piercing Howl counting as a daze effect for Heroic Strike added damage, I'm fairly sure it counts as the daze. Bosses that are immune to the slow effect still get the debuff that says "Dazed." I've also noticed that when I was tanking and someone was keeping Piercing Howl up, my tps was in general 30-50 higher than without (this was at Gruul, so rage wasn't a limiting factor). However that could be just a "feeling" and not really hard evidence.
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I used to have PH for that exact reason, adding damage and therefore threat to HS (both when I'm MT'ing and OT'ing) but after 2.1 I noticed that mobs I had previously used PH on, from Kara through to Magtheridon, pretty much everything now came up as "immune" to both the slow and the daze.
So I respecced out of it.
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Originally Posted by Crazypie
It's cool if you believe 2h warriors are viable, but to me atleast, viable doesn't mean much when you strive for being an irreplaceable asset to your guild's dps.
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Is there raw data that shows an optimally geared MS/Flurry Warrior will deliver less DPS than an optimally geared DW Fury Warrior? I've looked at the Warrior spreadsheet and it's possible that such a comparison is there yet beyond my limited ability to effectively use that tool.
I certainly believe DPS Warriors are viable and effective in Raid environments. The fact that there can be a debate regarding the effectiveness of two significantly differing specs supports the idea that there are enough Raids using DPS Warriors that there must be some benefit to including them in Raid rosters.
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Originally Posted by Tzan
I certainly meant no disrespect to your Guild. I was simply trying to raise the issue that ranking within a certain group is dependent on the group and thus is difficult to use as some type of benchmark of performance.
Is there raw data that shows an optimally geared MS/Flurry Warrior will deliver less DPS than an optimally geared DW Fury Warrior? I've looked at the Warrior spreadsheet and it's possible that such a comparison is there yet beyond my limited ability to effectively use that tool. I certainly believe DPS Warriors are viable and effective in Raid environments. The fact that there can be a debate regarding the effectiveness of two significantly differing specs supports the idea that there are enough Raids using DPS Warriors that there must be some benefit to including them in Raid rosters. |
I have seen numerous screenshots of said fury warriors. Just recently, prophet from curse was 2nd on the dmeter in their Hyjal kill shot which is solid proof of fury warrior validity. I have yet to see such screenshots on meaningful content. A screenshot where a warrior is buffed up the wazoo and whailing on gruul that's been farmed for months isn't really useful in terms of gauging a warrior's damage potential. Anybody can do relatively good damage on farmed content when people do not feel the need to push the limits of their potential.
I think a major misconception people have here is the arms vs. fury argument, which is stale, in my view.
If anything, having an Arms and Fury warrior in a raid party seems to have an synergistic result.
Can Arms do as much dps as Fury over time? Usually not, but Arms brings things to the table (and to the raid) than Fury doesn't.
It's not always about who can sit higher on the damage meters if a build is bringing something worthwhile to a raid and holding their own when it does come to damage. And 2hand fury and MS/deathwish (both with imp Slam) can hold their own, these days.
It doesn't mean one is "better" than the other, it just means there's more options and flavors to go around.
If anything, having an Arms and Fury warrior in a raid party seems to have an synergistic result.
Can Arms do as much dps as Fury over time? Usually not, but Arms brings things to the table (and to the raid) than Fury doesn't.
It's not always about who can sit higher on the damage meters if a build is bringing something worthwhile to a raid and holding their own when it does come to damage. And 2hand fury and MS/deathwish (both with imp Slam) can hold their own, these days.
It doesn't mean one is "better" than the other, it just means there's more options and flavors to go around.
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Originally Posted by Crazypie
That's the problem. I have yet to see an MS warrior or a 2h fury warrior pull off significant dps in a raid setting consistently. The only time a ms warrior shines is if there is a gimmick to a fight requiring quick spurts of aoe like on hydross. However, fury warriors pull off amazing damage whether it be single target, or aoe situations since they have cleave almost taped down with the excess of rage available.
I have seen numerous screenshots of said fury warriors. Just recently, prophet from curse was 2nd on the dmeter in their Hyjal kill shot which is solid proof of fury warrior validity. I have yet to see such screenshots on meaningful content. A screenshot where a warrior is buffed up the wazoo and whailing on gruul that's been farmed for months isn't really useful in terms of gauging a warrior's damage potential. Anybody can do relatively good damage on farmed content when people do not feel the need to push the limits of their potential. |
No opinion either way on the conclusions (never played a warrior past level 20), just wanted to clear that up.
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Originally Posted by panny
If this is in reference to my WWSs, the last Gruul kill was the first post-patch, we had lost our best healer, had people in completely new to the fight (and 25 mans in general), etcetc. It took about six tries to kill him so people were definitely not slacking.
No opinion either way on the conclusions (never played a warrior past level 20), just wanted to clear that up. |
@ OP: You've said our limiting factor in damage output is being able to make our rage worth more damage per point. You're already doing this with any gear upgrade... In my experience the factor which most limits damage is threat. I get grouped with a shaman and druid for windfury and 5% crit, which keep me near 100 rage at all times. Raid buffed I sit at 2500 ap (without BS/Rampage up) and 37% crit. I can keep up with any DPSer for good amount of time till I have to auto attack to let the tank build up threat (this is not going all out either). Alternatively I can DPS till I pull aggro and die to wipe my threat completely.
There will always be room for one or two DPS warriors in raids and there will be things we're amazing for, like Vashj stage 2 (on elementals). Personally though, gear has taken me to a point where I can no longer DPS merrily the whole fight, I reach the threat ceiling too fast. I'm not trying to brag - I really think once a warrior gets very good gear their threat production is too high. It doesn't look like things will change much in the future unless: a) [my] tanks can start generating a lot more threat b) warriors get a threat reduction/transfer ability/talent or a buff to the passive threat reduction of berserker stance. Has anyone tried Prism of Inner Calm? Is -54 threat from all crits enough to lengthen our DPS time?
There will always be room for one or two DPS warriors in raids and there will be things we're amazing for, like Vashj stage 2 (on elementals). Personally though, gear has taken me to a point where I can no longer DPS merrily the whole fight, I reach the threat ceiling too fast. I'm not trying to brag - I really think once a warrior gets very good gear their threat production is too high. It doesn't look like things will change much in the future unless: a) [my] tanks can start generating a lot more threat b) warriors get a threat reduction/transfer ability/talent or a buff to the passive threat reduction of berserker stance. Has anyone tried Prism of Inner Calm? Is -54 threat from all crits enough to lengthen our DPS time?
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Originally Posted by Tauftamir
With BoS, you would have to be pulling out a massive amount of DPS to top a skilled tank - I think the number quoted earlier was around 1700+ DPS?
Since I'm quite confident that you are not near this cap, then reducing your rage by using Heroic Strike is a viable solution to managing your rage gen/skill use. |
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Originally Posted by squiffy
I used to have PH for that exact reason, adding damage and therefore threat to HS (both when I'm MT'ing and OT'ing) but after 2.1 I noticed that mobs I had previously used PH on, from Kara through to Magtheridon, pretty much everything now came up as "immune" to both the slow and the daze.
So I respecced out of it. |
I'm too going to spec out of it. Such a shame
Bimmy: I agree with what you said, it feels like our base TPS just escalates, meanwhile the tanks just gets more avoidance and less TPS. I sure hope the Prism of Inner Calm will sort this, but It'd be stupid if you needed a certain trinket in order to play a class to it full potential.
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Originally Posted by ikillyouheal
Bimmy: I agree with what you said, it feels like our base TPS just escalates, meanwhile the tanks just gets more avoidance and less TPS. I sure hope the Prism of Inner Calm will sort this, but It'd be stupid if you needed a certain trinket in order to play a class to it full potential.
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Prism of Inner Calm
Binds when picked up
Unique
Trinket
Requires Level 70
Equip: Reduces the threat from your harmful critical strikes.
Equip: <Crit Threat Reduction Spell>
Melee Crits = -54 threat
Spell crits = -216 threat
Assuming you use a 2.6 1hander in your mh, and a gladiator weapon in your offhand, you'll have:
2.6/1.3 = 2 second attack speed flurried
1.5/1.3 = 1.15 second attack speed flurried
60/2 + 60/1.15 = 82 swings white
60/6 = 10 Bloodthirsts
60/10 = 6 Whirlwinds
(82+10+6)=98 swings per minute * 1.2 (windfury) = 117.6 swings per minute
assume a 40% crit rate (very hard to achieve)
117.6 * .4 = 47.04 crits * -54 = 2540 threat per minute reduced / 60 = -42 TPS
Things to consider: I did not include miss rate, dodge penalties, or glancing blows which would just hurt the prism even more so in terms of viability. It's funny that a trinket with item level 128 would be less efficient then a drop from Fankriss which has its on use @ 50% less threat even at 70.
I really hope it gets buffed.
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Originally Posted by ikillyouheal
I sure hope the Prism of Inner Calm will sort this, but It'd be stupid if you needed a certain trinket in order to play a class to it full potential.
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DPS classes with aggro control should have an advantage on hand: rogues, hunters, even locks and mages (shatter and invisibility)
And I'm not saying this out of spite. At the end of vanilla WoW I was one of the DPS warriors (fury specced, with ALL the good gear up to 4HM), so I know how it is to be threat capped.
It still does have its use though. Namely most of the zerg encounters (think NEF, Fankriss) or bosses without aggro caps (C'Thun). And I'm pretty sure equivalent use will be found in BC (have pulled Vashj only once last week, serious attempts to follow the coming days).
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Originally Posted by Crazypie
Things to consider: I did not include miss rate, dodge penalties, or glancing blows which would just hurt the prism even more so in terms of viability.
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Dodges/parries/misses and glances do not "eat into" your crits.
UNLESS you are crit capped.
So the TPS reduction would not be lessened.
I agree though that it is lackluster for melees.
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Originally Posted by suicuique
I disagree.
Dodges/parries/misses and glances do not "eat into" your crits. UNLESS you are crit capped. So the TPS reduction would not be lessened. I agree though that it is lackluster for melees. |
Pretend I have a certain amount of hit, say +10 with talents. I swing 100 times and I get 40 crits because my crit rate is 40%. Now pretend I hit 95 times because I drop 5 hit from gear. Does that mean I will be at 38 crits or will my crit stay at 40 crits? I honestly haven't looked into the hit table in a long time and I probably am overlooking something.
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Originally Posted by Crazypie
I'm pretty shady on the attack table so please correct me if i'm wrong.
Pretend I have a certain amount of hit, say +10 with talents. I swing 100 times and I get 40 crits because my crit rate is 40%. Now pretend I hit 95 times because I drop 5 hit from gear. Does that mean I will be at 38 crits or will my crit stay at 40 crits? |
Crit is a portion of ALL swings (including misses/dodges/parries). Not a portion of connecting swings.
misses/parries/dodges/blocks/glances first eat into your "normal" hits.
Considering that glancing chance was reduced to something like 20%. And assuming low +10% hit on DW fury warriors, we'd have (at worst):
15%miss, 6% dodge, 6%parry, 6% block, 20% glance
when attacking from the front.
This worst case would still leave you with a 47% crit chance before being "crit capped" (read: crit being eaten way).
Attacking from the back (which should be the norm) and having more +hit (pre BC I was really comfortable at +15% hit levels) would further increase the crit cap.
I'm not understanding how all you guys are having agro issues. Are you not getting salvation?
- Our MT generates around 750-850 TPS usually.
- Fury/battle stance is 20% less threat
- Salv is 30% less threat
If i'm not mistaken, they multiply to a 56% agro reduction. So if the tank is doing 800 TPS you would have to pull 1400+ DPS to catch up to him. (Obviously that's if you aren't laying down heroic strikes as a rage dump though) I don't see how any warrior can sustain 1400 dps. Most of the WWS and damage meters i have seen show warriors being from 900-1100 dps, depending on the fight.
The only other thing i wanted to throw in, is with the way that paladin buffs work it's rare/impossible to get a 15 minute salv, as it would be on the MT too. So I end up with a 5 min salv usually, and have issues with it running out when we get to deathwish/recklessness/execute range.
Just from personal experience, the only time i ever have to consider threat is if i don't have salvation, or it's a twitchy agro fight with agro reduction or something.
Any other thoughts on this?
- Our MT generates around 750-850 TPS usually.
- Fury/battle stance is 20% less threat
- Salv is 30% less threat
If i'm not mistaken, they multiply to a 56% agro reduction. So if the tank is doing 800 TPS you would have to pull 1400+ DPS to catch up to him. (Obviously that's if you aren't laying down heroic strikes as a rage dump though) I don't see how any warrior can sustain 1400 dps. Most of the WWS and damage meters i have seen show warriors being from 900-1100 dps, depending on the fight.
The only other thing i wanted to throw in, is with the way that paladin buffs work it's rare/impossible to get a 15 minute salv, as it would be on the MT too. So I end up with a 5 min salv usually, and have issues with it running out when we get to deathwish/recklessness/execute range.
Just from personal experience, the only time i ever have to consider threat is if i don't have salvation, or it's a twitchy agro fight with agro reduction or something.
Any other thoughts on this?
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Originally Posted by Calgar
The only other thing i wanted to throw in, is with the way that paladin buffs work it's rare/impossible to get a 15 minute salv, as it would be on the MT too.
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Originally Posted by suicuique
Let the tanks click it off.
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Originally Posted by Calgar
The only other thing i wanted to throw in, is with the way that paladin buffs work it's rare/impossible to get a 15 minute salv, as it would be on the MT too. So I end up with a 5 min salv usually, and have issues with it running out when we get to deathwish/recklessness/execute range.
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Have the Paladin that is doing Light or BoSanc on the warriors make macros for each DPS Warrior that needs induvidual Salv, and they can recast midfight without skipping a beat.
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Originally Posted by suicuique
I've observed the same. Most of the mobs which piercing howl had an effect on, are now labeled as "immune".
I'm too going to spec out of it. Such a shame |
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Originally Posted by Calgar
If i'm not mistaken, they multiply to a 56% agro reduction. So if the tank is doing 800 TPS you would have to pull 1400+ DPS to catch up to him. (Obviously that's if you aren't laying down heroic strikes as a rage dump though)
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Originally Posted by Calgar
So if the tank is doing 800 TPS you would have to pull 1400+ DPS to catch up to him. (Obviously that's if you aren't laying down heroic strikes as a rage dump though) I don't see how any warrior can sustain 1400 dps. Most of the WWS and damage meters i have seen show warriors being from 900-1100 dps, depending on the fight.
... Any other thoughts on this? |
Assuming full raid buffs, mongoose and flurry both up (2.82 attack speed for Lionheart), crits only on special attacks (I'm using lower end numbers from what I usually crit on specials and a constant 1100 non crit for auto attacks), and ignoring lag with the global cooldown this is what I get.
0s: 1100 auto, 2800 BT (6s cd)
1.5s: 2600 WW (8s cd)
2.82s: 1100 auto
3.0-3.5s: Slam cast; 2700
4.5-5.0s: Slam cast; 2700, swing timer is reset at 4.5s (or does it reset when slam finishes casting?)
6s: 2800 BT
7.32s: 1100 auto
9.5s: 2600 WW
10.14s: 1100 auto
11-11.5s: Slam cast; 2700
12s: BT is back up
At this point cooldowns get further apart so you might spam slam for a bit, but you can see what the cycle idea is.
This is 23,300 damage over 12 seconds, or 1941 DPS. Sure I have specials critting 100% of the time and the crit rate overall is 60 odd percent, but I excluded windfury procs so don't fault me :P
Perhaps it's wrong that warriors can do this much damage and threat should be our limiter, but even DRUIDS a hybrid have cower and I've never seen a cat in danger of pulling aggro.
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Originally Posted by Salted
On alliance we just got shaman, and its horrible when they drop the spell dmg totem instead of WF.
But thats the thing, my friend plays horde and I'll ask him if he got windfury on the last raid, and 7/10 times he says no, that the shaman just dropped agility or spell damage. I'll have to pull out my 2h next kara run, see how I do, but I'm guessing without the spec for it, it'll be a wash at best. |
A Feral tank will obviously always want agi, not only does it provide a huge dodge buff, but threat generation goes stratospheric with the extra crits.
Correct me if Im wrong but I am not mistaken doesn't +haste rating lower your rage generation at some point, and the T6 instances got lots of gear with haste rating.
That means more white DPS and less yellow DPS, which is good if I've understood you correctly?
That means more white DPS and less yellow DPS, which is good if I've understood you correctly?
I have two answers to the OP's question.
In regards to the "future" of DPS Warriors, I'm quite certain there will always be a case for them in a raid group. Sure, if your guild is really trying to min-max then Feral Druid B or Protection Paladin C might be a better choice - but for those who don't go to such extremes the DPS warrior will always have a place as a tank up until the point you reach the boss encounter and you want him to DPS.
The builds we have, while having some lacklustre talents - do include some very useful group buffs: Blood Frenzy, Imp. Shouts, TC, Demo etc.. which will likely justify the case of having a DPS warrior in the raid. I won't expound on those further as it's a discussion which has been thoroughly canvassed before.
In regards to the DPS warrior's personal DPS:
This is largely limited by your tank. I read lots of threads, especially on Blizzard forums, asking for us to have a threat wipe or reduction. It's my feeling that we will _never_ get this as it largely distinguishes us from the Rogues. (As an aside, I prefer the "Berserker" aspect of Warrior DPS, than the safety of Rogue damage, so to say).
With BoS, you would have to be pulling out a massive amount of DPS to top a skilled tank - I think the number quoted earlier was around 1700+ DPS?
Since I'm quite confident that you are not near this cap, then reducing your rage by using Heroic Strike is a viable solution to managing your rage gen/skill use.
I personally don't see a problem for DPS warriors now - I do however see a potential issue for tanks if our threat doesn't scale up with the DPS gains made by the raid as a whole - but that's beyond the scope of your question.
There are always going to be "gimmick" fights with aggro reductions on the tank, and so forth which limit the DPS Warrior.
Do you have any postable stats of your TPS in comparison with your tank and your damage output to look at?
In regards to the "future" of DPS Warriors, I'm quite certain there will always be a case for them in a raid group. Sure, if your guild is really trying to min-max then Feral Druid B or Protection Paladin C might be a better choice - but for those who don't go to such extremes the DPS warrior will always have a place as a tank up until the point you reach the boss encounter and you want him to DPS.
The builds we have, while having some lacklustre talents - do include some very useful group buffs: Blood Frenzy, Imp. Shouts, TC, Demo etc.. which will likely justify the case of having a DPS warrior in the raid. I won't expound on those further as it's a discussion which has been thoroughly canvassed before.
In regards to the DPS warrior's personal DPS:
This is largely limited by your tank. I read lots of threads, especially on Blizzard forums, asking for us to have a threat wipe or reduction. It's my feeling that we will _never_ get this as it largely distinguishes us from the Rogues. (As an aside, I prefer the "Berserker" aspect of Warrior DPS, than the safety of Rogue damage, so to say).
With BoS, you would have to be pulling out a massive amount of DPS to top a skilled tank - I think the number quoted earlier was around 1700+ DPS?
Since I'm quite confident that you are not near this cap, then reducing your rage by using Heroic Strike is a viable solution to managing your rage gen/skill use.
I personally don't see a problem for DPS warriors now - I do however see a potential issue for tanks if our threat doesn't scale up with the DPS gains made by the raid as a whole - but that's beyond the scope of your question.
There are always going to be "gimmick" fights with aggro reductions on the tank, and so forth which limit the DPS Warrior.
Do you have any postable stats of your TPS in comparison with your tank and your damage output to look at?
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Originally Posted by Tzan
How is ranking in your top 5 an effective measure of performance? Not saying it's the case, but what if you ran with a bunch of ninnies? Being in the top 5 would be meaningless. What if you were running with a bunch of gods? Then being 7th could mean you were getting the absolute maximum DPS possible. Do DPS dealers who rank below 5th on your Raid not deserve their slots? By setting 5th as the magic number, clearly there are going to be a number of undeserving players attending.
So perhaps looking at raw DPS is the only effective way of measuring the validity of 2h specs and any ranking within a Raid is meaningless. |
3.5million hp
3.5*(1-.8)=595k-700k
(595k-700k)/60sec = 9916 - 11666dps/14dps classes= 708 - 833 dps
we have 7 healers, 2 hybrid tanks, and 2 MT's for that fight so 14DPS
700+ dps average on our dps is pretty indicative that our dps doesn't suck, and we're currently working on Leo so we're obviously not a bad guild.
Being top 5 damage done of a guild that can consistently push 700+dps average pretty much guarantees that when a raid is forming, you will selected over somebody who consistently places lower then you. It also means that you become an asset to the guild in terms of dps, that simply isn't a replaceable spot holder, especially considering warriors aren't exactly the biggest source of utility.
It's cool if you believe 2h warriors are viable, but to me atleast, viable doesn't mean much when you strive for being an irreplaceable asset to your guild's dps.
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Originally Posted by Voxx
As for Piercing Howl counting as a daze effect for Heroic Strike added damage, I'm fairly sure it counts as the daze. Bosses that are immune to the slow effect still get the debuff that says "Dazed." I've also noticed that when I was tanking and someone was keeping Piercing Howl up, my tps was in general 30-50 higher than without (this was at Gruul, so rage wasn't a limiting factor). However that could be just a "feeling" and not really hard evidence.
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I used to have PH for that exact reason, adding damage and therefore threat to HS (both when I'm MT'ing and OT'ing) but after 2.1 I noticed that mobs I had previously used PH on, from Kara through to Magtheridon, pretty much everything now came up as "immune" to both the slow and the daze.
So I respecced out of it.
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Originally Posted by Crazypie
It's cool if you believe 2h warriors are viable, but to me atleast, viable doesn't mean much when you strive for being an irreplaceable asset to your guild's dps.
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Is there raw data that shows an optimally geared MS/Flurry Warrior will deliver less DPS than an optimally geared DW Fury Warrior? I've looked at the Warrior spreadsheet and it's possible that such a comparison is there yet beyond my limited ability to effectively use that tool.
I certainly believe DPS Warriors are viable and effective in Raid environments. The fact that there can be a debate regarding the effectiveness of two significantly differing specs supports the idea that there are enough Raids using DPS Warriors that there must be some benefit to including them in Raid rosters.
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Originally Posted by Tzan
I certainly meant no disrespect to your Guild. I was simply trying to raise the issue that ranking within a certain group is dependent on the group and thus is difficult to use as some type of benchmark of performance.
Is there raw data that shows an optimally geared MS/Flurry Warrior will deliver less DPS than an optimally geared DW Fury Warrior? I've looked at the Warrior spreadsheet and it's possible that such a comparison is there yet beyond my limited ability to effectively use that tool. I certainly believe DPS Warriors are viable and effective in Raid environments. The fact that there can be a debate regarding the effectiveness of two significantly differing specs supports the idea that there are enough Raids using DPS Warriors that there must be some benefit to including them in Raid rosters. |
I have seen numerous screenshots of said fury warriors. Just recently, prophet from curse was 2nd on the dmeter in their Hyjal kill shot which is solid proof of fury warrior validity. I have yet to see such screenshots on meaningful content. A screenshot where a warrior is buffed up the wazoo and whailing on gruul that's been farmed for months isn't really useful in terms of gauging a warrior's damage potential. Anybody can do relatively good damage on farmed content when people do not feel the need to push the limits of their potential.
I think a major misconception people have here is the arms vs. fury argument, which is stale, in my view.
If anything, having an Arms and Fury warrior in a raid party seems to have an synergistic result.
Can Arms do as much dps as Fury over time? Usually not, but Arms brings things to the table (and to the raid) than Fury doesn't.
It's not always about who can sit higher on the damage meters if a build is bringing something worthwhile to a raid and holding their own when it does come to damage. And 2hand fury and MS/deathwish (both with imp Slam) can hold their own, these days.
It doesn't mean one is "better" than the other, it just means there's more options and flavors to go around.
If anything, having an Arms and Fury warrior in a raid party seems to have an synergistic result.
Can Arms do as much dps as Fury over time? Usually not, but Arms brings things to the table (and to the raid) than Fury doesn't.
It's not always about who can sit higher on the damage meters if a build is bringing something worthwhile to a raid and holding their own when it does come to damage. And 2hand fury and MS/deathwish (both with imp Slam) can hold their own, these days.
It doesn't mean one is "better" than the other, it just means there's more options and flavors to go around.
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Originally Posted by Crazypie
That's the problem. I have yet to see an MS warrior or a 2h fury warrior pull off significant dps in a raid setting consistently. The only time a ms warrior shines is if there is a gimmick to a fight requiring quick spurts of aoe like on hydross. However, fury warriors pull off amazing damage whether it be single target, or aoe situations since they have cleave almost taped down with the excess of rage available.
I have seen numerous screenshots of said fury warriors. Just recently, prophet from curse was 2nd on the dmeter in their Hyjal kill shot which is solid proof of fury warrior validity. I have yet to see such screenshots on meaningful content. A screenshot where a warrior is buffed up the wazoo and whailing on gruul that's been farmed for months isn't really useful in terms of gauging a warrior's damage potential. Anybody can do relatively good damage on farmed content when people do not feel the need to push the limits of their potential. |
No opinion either way on the conclusions (never played a warrior past level 20), just wanted to clear that up.
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Originally Posted by panny
If this is in reference to my WWSs, the last Gruul kill was the first post-patch, we had lost our best healer, had people in completely new to the fight (and 25 mans in general), etcetc. It took about six tries to kill him so people were definitely not slacking.
No opinion either way on the conclusions (never played a warrior past level 20), just wanted to clear that up. |
@ OP: You've said our limiting factor in damage output is being able to make our rage worth more damage per point. You're already doing this with any gear upgrade... In my experience the factor which most limits damage is threat. I get grouped with a shaman and druid for windfury and 5% crit, which keep me near 100 rage at all times. Raid buffed I sit at 2500 ap (without BS/Rampage up) and 37% crit. I can keep up with any DPSer for good amount of time till I have to auto attack to let the tank build up threat (this is not going all out either). Alternatively I can DPS till I pull aggro and die to wipe my threat completely.
There will always be room for one or two DPS warriors in raids and there will be things we're amazing for, like Vashj stage 2 (on elementals). Personally though, gear has taken me to a point where I can no longer DPS merrily the whole fight, I reach the threat ceiling too fast. I'm not trying to brag - I really think once a warrior gets very good gear their threat production is too high. It doesn't look like things will change much in the future unless: a) [my] tanks can start generating a lot more threat b) warriors get a threat reduction/transfer ability/talent or a buff to the passive threat reduction of berserker stance. Has anyone tried Prism of Inner Calm? Is -54 threat from all crits enough to lengthen our DPS time?
There will always be room for one or two DPS warriors in raids and there will be things we're amazing for, like Vashj stage 2 (on elementals). Personally though, gear has taken me to a point where I can no longer DPS merrily the whole fight, I reach the threat ceiling too fast. I'm not trying to brag - I really think once a warrior gets very good gear their threat production is too high. It doesn't look like things will change much in the future unless: a) [my] tanks can start generating a lot more threat b) warriors get a threat reduction/transfer ability/talent or a buff to the passive threat reduction of berserker stance. Has anyone tried Prism of Inner Calm? Is -54 threat from all crits enough to lengthen our DPS time?
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Originally Posted by Tauftamir
With BoS, you would have to be pulling out a massive amount of DPS to top a skilled tank - I think the number quoted earlier was around 1700+ DPS?
Since I'm quite confident that you are not near this cap, then reducing your rage by using Heroic Strike is a viable solution to managing your rage gen/skill use. |
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Originally Posted by squiffy
I used to have PH for that exact reason, adding damage and therefore threat to HS (both when I'm MT'ing and OT'ing) but after 2.1 I noticed that mobs I had previously used PH on, from Kara through to Magtheridon, pretty much everything now came up as "immune" to both the slow and the daze.
So I respecced out of it. |
I'm too going to spec out of it. Such a shame
Bimmy: I agree with what you said, it feels like our base TPS just escalates, meanwhile the tanks just gets more avoidance and less TPS. I sure hope the Prism of Inner Calm will sort this, but It'd be stupid if you needed a certain trinket in order to play a class to it full potential.
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Originally Posted by ikillyouheal
Bimmy: I agree with what you said, it feels like our base TPS just escalates, meanwhile the tanks just gets more avoidance and less TPS. I sure hope the Prism of Inner Calm will sort this, but It'd be stupid if you needed a certain trinket in order to play a class to it full potential.
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Prism of Inner Calm
Binds when picked up
Unique
Trinket
Requires Level 70
Equip: Reduces the threat from your harmful critical strikes.
Equip: <Crit Threat Reduction Spell>
Melee Crits = -54 threat
Spell crits = -216 threat
Assuming you use a 2.6 1hander in your mh, and a gladiator weapon in your offhand, you'll have:
2.6/1.3 = 2 second attack speed flurried
1.5/1.3 = 1.15 second attack speed flurried
60/2 + 60/1.15 = 82 swings white
60/6 = 10 Bloodthirsts
60/10 = 6 Whirlwinds
(82+10+6)=98 swings per minute * 1.2 (windfury) = 117.6 swings per minute
assume a 40% crit rate (very hard to achieve)
117.6 * .4 = 47.04 crits * -54 = 2540 threat per minute reduced / 60 = -42 TPS
Things to consider: I did not include miss rate, dodge penalties, or glancing blows which would just hurt the prism even more so in terms of viability. It's funny that a trinket with item level 128 would be less efficient then a drop from Fankriss which has its on use @ 50% less threat even at 70.
I really hope it gets buffed.
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Originally Posted by ikillyouheal
I sure hope the Prism of Inner Calm will sort this, but It'd be stupid if you needed a certain trinket in order to play a class to it full potential.
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DPS classes with aggro control should have an advantage on hand: rogues, hunters, even locks and mages (shatter and invisibility)
And I'm not saying this out of spite. At the end of vanilla WoW I was one of the DPS warriors (fury specced, with ALL the good gear up to 4HM), so I know how it is to be threat capped.
It still does have its use though. Namely most of the zerg encounters (think NEF, Fankriss) or bosses without aggro caps (C'Thun). And I'm pretty sure equivalent use will be found in BC (have pulled Vashj only once last week, serious attempts to follow the coming days).
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Originally Posted by Crazypie
Things to consider: I did not include miss rate, dodge penalties, or glancing blows which would just hurt the prism even more so in terms of viability.
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Dodges/parries/misses and glances do not "eat into" your crits.
UNLESS you are crit capped.
So the TPS reduction would not be lessened.
I agree though that it is lackluster for melees.
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Originally Posted by suicuique
I disagree.
Dodges/parries/misses and glances do not "eat into" your crits. UNLESS you are crit capped. So the TPS reduction would not be lessened. I agree though that it is lackluster for melees. |
Pretend I have a certain amount of hit, say +10 with talents. I swing 100 times and I get 40 crits because my crit rate is 40%. Now pretend I hit 95 times because I drop 5 hit from gear. Does that mean I will be at 38 crits or will my crit stay at 40 crits? I honestly haven't looked into the hit table in a long time and I probably am overlooking something.
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Originally Posted by Crazypie
I'm pretty shady on the attack table so please correct me if i'm wrong.
Pretend I have a certain amount of hit, say +10 with talents. I swing 100 times and I get 40 crits because my crit rate is 40%. Now pretend I hit 95 times because I drop 5 hit from gear. Does that mean I will be at 38 crits or will my crit stay at 40 crits? |
Crit is a portion of ALL swings (including misses/dodges/parries). Not a portion of connecting swings.
misses/parries/dodges/blocks/glances first eat into your "normal" hits.
Considering that glancing chance was reduced to something like 20%. And assuming low +10% hit on DW fury warriors, we'd have (at worst):
15%miss, 6% dodge, 6%parry, 6% block, 20% glance
when attacking from the front.
This worst case would still leave you with a 47% crit chance before being "crit capped" (read: crit being eaten way).
Attacking from the back (which should be the norm) and having more +hit (pre BC I was really comfortable at +15% hit levels) would further increase the crit cap.
I'm not understanding how all you guys are having agro issues. Are you not getting salvation?
- Our MT generates around 750-850 TPS usually.
- Fury/battle stance is 20% less threat
- Salv is 30% less threat
If i'm not mistaken, they multiply to a 56% agro reduction. So if the tank is doing 800 TPS you would have to pull 1400+ DPS to catch up to him. (Obviously that's if you aren't laying down heroic strikes as a rage dump though) I don't see how any warrior can sustain 1400 dps. Most of the WWS and damage meters i have seen show warriors being from 900-1100 dps, depending on the fight.
The only other thing i wanted to throw in, is with the way that paladin buffs work it's rare/impossible to get a 15 minute salv, as it would be on the MT too. So I end up with a 5 min salv usually, and have issues with it running out when we get to deathwish/recklessness/execute range.
Just from personal experience, the only time i ever have to consider threat is if i don't have salvation, or it's a twitchy agro fight with agro reduction or something.
Any other thoughts on this?
- Our MT generates around 750-850 TPS usually.
- Fury/battle stance is 20% less threat
- Salv is 30% less threat
If i'm not mistaken, they multiply to a 56% agro reduction. So if the tank is doing 800 TPS you would have to pull 1400+ DPS to catch up to him. (Obviously that's if you aren't laying down heroic strikes as a rage dump though) I don't see how any warrior can sustain 1400 dps. Most of the WWS and damage meters i have seen show warriors being from 900-1100 dps, depending on the fight.
The only other thing i wanted to throw in, is with the way that paladin buffs work it's rare/impossible to get a 15 minute salv, as it would be on the MT too. So I end up with a 5 min salv usually, and have issues with it running out when we get to deathwish/recklessness/execute range.
Just from personal experience, the only time i ever have to consider threat is if i don't have salvation, or it's a twitchy agro fight with agro reduction or something.
Any other thoughts on this?
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Originally Posted by Calgar
The only other thing i wanted to throw in, is with the way that paladin buffs work it's rare/impossible to get a 15 minute salv, as it would be on the MT too.
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Originally Posted by suicuique
Let the tanks click it off.
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Originally Posted by Calgar
The only other thing i wanted to throw in, is with the way that paladin buffs work it's rare/impossible to get a 15 minute salv, as it would be on the MT too. So I end up with a 5 min salv usually, and have issues with it running out when we get to deathwish/recklessness/execute range.
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Have the Paladin that is doing Light or BoSanc on the warriors make macros for each DPS Warrior that needs induvidual Salv, and they can recast midfight without skipping a beat.
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Originally Posted by suicuique
I've observed the same. Most of the mobs which piercing howl had an effect on, are now labeled as "immune".
I'm too going to spec out of it. Such a shame |
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Originally Posted by Calgar
If i'm not mistaken, they multiply to a 56% agro reduction. So if the tank is doing 800 TPS you would have to pull 1400+ DPS to catch up to him. (Obviously that's if you aren't laying down heroic strikes as a rage dump though)
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Originally Posted by Calgar
So if the tank is doing 800 TPS you would have to pull 1400+ DPS to catch up to him. (Obviously that's if you aren't laying down heroic strikes as a rage dump though) I don't see how any warrior can sustain 1400 dps. Most of the WWS and damage meters i have seen show warriors being from 900-1100 dps, depending on the fight.
... Any other thoughts on this? |
Assuming full raid buffs, mongoose and flurry both up (2.82 attack speed for Lionheart), crits only on special attacks (I'm using lower end numbers from what I usually crit on specials and a constant 1100 non crit for auto attacks), and ignoring lag with the global cooldown this is what I get.
0s: 1100 auto, 2800 BT (6s cd)
1.5s: 2600 WW (8s cd)
2.82s: 1100 auto
3.0-3.5s: Slam cast; 2700
4.5-5.0s: Slam cast; 2700, swing timer is reset at 4.5s (or does it reset when slam finishes casting?)
6s: 2800 BT
7.32s: 1100 auto
9.5s: 2600 WW
10.14s: 1100 auto
11-11.5s: Slam cast; 2700
12s: BT is back up
At this point cooldowns get further apart so you might spam slam for a bit, but you can see what the cycle idea is.
This is 23,300 damage over 12 seconds, or 1941 DPS. Sure I have specials critting 100% of the time and the crit rate overall is 60 odd percent, but I excluded windfury procs so don't fault me :P
Perhaps it's wrong that warriors can do this much damage and threat should be our limiter, but even DRUIDS a hybrid have cower and I've never seen a cat in danger of pulling aggro.
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Originally Posted by Crazypie
That's the problem. I have yet to see an MS warrior or a 2h fury warrior pull off significant dps in a raid setting consistently. The only time a ms warrior shines is if there is a gimmick to a fight requiring quick spurts of aoe like on hydross. However, fury warriors pull off amazing damage whether it be single target, or aoe situations since they have cleave almost taped down with the excess of rage available.
I have seen numerous screenshots of said fury warriors. Just recently, prophet from curse was 2nd on the dmeter in their Hyjal kill shot which is solid proof of fury warrior validity. I have yet to see such screenshots on meaningful content. A screenshot where a warrior is buffed up the wazoo and whailing on gruul that's been farmed for months isn't really useful in terms of gauging a warrior's damage potential. Anybody can do relatively good damage on farmed content when people do not feel the need to push the limits of their potential. |
Edited onPatch 2.1.0.6729
|
Originally Posted by bimmy
Perhaps it's wrong that warriors can do this much damage and threat should be our limiter, but even DRUIDS a hybrid have cower and I've never seen a cat in danger of pulling aggro.
|
That's REALLY theorycrafted, whether it's correct or not. Looking through all the WWS and personal damage meters, the only time you see long term 1000+ dps is on occasions where we can cleave/whirlwind multiple mobs....like Illhoof or Hydross.
You also aren't factoring glances, and no offense, but 1100 auto-attack seems rather high. I don't know if you are theory crafting them without armor or something. I use a gorehowl for my AoE work, and even with 3000 AP buffed you are only looking at a top end of 1200ish pre-armor. So more likely around 1000 auto attacks.
In Theory, we can push thousands of threat per second, but it rarely works out like that. If flurry drops, chain glances, or dodges can leave you rage starved all of a sudden and really kill your DPS in a hurry.
I think a lot of us have biased opinions on what we have personally experienced. Eg. i rarely make top 5 dps, where as Graul is usally top 3. Is that because of gear difference? Skill difference between him and I? Or because the rest of my raids DPS is better then his?
Last edited by Calgar : 06/01/07 at 12:51 PM.
I'm taking the 1100 number from my experience raid buffed hitting fully sundered mobs :o
|
Originally Posted by bimmy
I'm taking the 1100 number from my experience raid buffed hitting fully sundered mobs :o
|
|
Originally Posted by Graul
I've been running around as 31/30 after the patch to grind arena for a better of hand, and I respec so much that I never have any gold, so I've just been raiding with this build. I also am never lower than third, usually second and on some fights first. The only time I am never in the top three, barring death is on something like Tidewalker, where all of the melee remain on him while Warlocks and Mages take care of the murlocs. I don't particularly enjoy raiding with this build for many reasons, and cannot wait to spec back to my regular DW build, but just because you have not seen anyone do extremely well with a 2h build does not mean it doesn't happen.
|
| I think a lot of us have biased opinions on what we have personally experienced. Eg. i rarely make top 5 dps, where as Graul is usally top 3. Is that because of gear difference? Skill difference between him and I? Or because the rest of my raids DPS is better then his? |
Posting a SS of your DPS before 20% would be helpful to give an estimated sustained amount DPS I suppose. Damage divided by seconds and such? Mention whatever damage buffs you have, and use WoW Webstats, etc.
Edited onPatch 2.1.0.6729
|
Originally Posted by Emeraude
Posting a SS of your DPS before 20% would be helpful to give an estimated sustained amount DPS I suppose. Damage divided by seconds and such? Mention whatever damage buffs you have, and use WoW Webstats, etc.
|
It's loosely similar to what Lav has here: http://www.lossendil.com/wws/?report...&s=1832,2573&m
Buffs I had were Might, Kings, LoTP, SoE, WF and 20 str from food. I also died once during a quake that bounced me into a cleave. Amaterassu also died, or else he would have been much higher. Mag might be a horrible fight to use as an example, but it's currently the only "evidence" I have of anything. Obviously some classes were at a disadvantage here due to being on cube duty, but Guildbank is almost always number one on every fight, and since this is a Warrior DPS thread, I don't see how comparing myself to him is irrelevant when talking about a DPS Warrior's use/damage in raids.
What fights do you think are "more fair" to all classes in general that would be worth using?
| But in all truth, I do not find my raid spot deserved unless I'm ATLEAST in top 5 damage done consistantly on a non-gimic fight because of personal beliefs in terms of filling my "dps role." |
| And how much dps or damage done exactly is "never lower than third?" Using placement on a damage meter without providing insight on your guild's overall dps isn't too useful. |
Last edited by Graul : 06/02/07 at 4:58 AM.
What exactly is the point of using Magtheridon as a gauge for DPS? You realize that people are constantly switching out for cube duty, pretty much ruining the fight's potential as a dps benchmark. You also don't consider how warlocks have to constantly watch for infernal drops, and the effect of target switching on SP's and Rogues which greatly lower their damage.
Edited onPatch 2.1.0.6729
|
Originally Posted by Crazypie
You also don't consider how warlocks have to constantly watch for infernal drops, and the effect of target switching on SP's and Rogues which greatly lower their damage.
|
Last edited by Graul : 06/02/07 at 12:40 PM.
|
Originally Posted by Crazypie
Couldn't have said it better myself. It also depends a lot on your strats. I can say for 100% though, if you're top 3 in the Lurker Below, your guild's range is not so good.
|
|
Originally Posted by Graul
Yes I did, please read a persons post fully before replying. And I'm sorry, how exactly do Rogues have to switch targets more than I do? You seem to want to be turning this thread into "2h DPS is not competetive, only DW can do anything" because you just don't want to believe it for whatever reason.
|
I don't understand why you'd post such a poorly balanced encounter at all to use as proof of your cause. It does nothing at all but act as clutter.
And Lurker below is definitely a ranged fight after the patch. Melee are the only ones that get hit by whirl, and they're also threat capped. Ranged on the other hand have no worries at all in terms of threat, and the water does trivial damage meaning they lose maybe 5 seconds per a spout while melee are constantly worried about their hp/dying. Also, your MT can occasionally be knocked out of melee range (depends on your tanks positioning) meaning a mistake by your MT is a melee dps's death.
Shadow Priests especially are free to wreak havok on this boss because of their ability to go all out. A shadow priest with 1000+ shadow damage, raid buffed to the extreme is literally an aggro producing factory (1300+ TPS easily) that rips chunk out of lurker.
|
Originally Posted by Voxx
Basically my question is: what do you see as a future for dps warriors, considering our once limiting factor (rage generation) has all but been removed, and our new limiting factor is putting our rage to more damage per rage point?
Is there really a future at all for dps warriors considering the difficulty in increasing damage per rage we can do? |
I think it's follow the lines of pre-xpac, DPS warriors doing whatever they can to maximize dps while minimizing agro as much as possible. I had Subtlety on a cape during the final days of pre-xpac and others I knew had the agro-reducing trinket from AQ40.
Do any of you use
Timelapse Shard
Binds when picked up
Unique
Trinket
+27 Stamina
Requires Level 70
Requires Keepers of Time - Exalted
Equip: Improves your resilience rating by 24 (0.6%).
Use: Reduces your threat to enemy targets within 30 yards, making them less likely to attack you.
Cooldown: 2 min
Item Level 105
Vendor value: 19 Gold 75 Silver 28 Copper
Vendor cost: 79 Gold 1 Silver 12 Copper
Source: Vendor
or any of the many other similar items including the Sporeggar Cloak
Timelapse Shard is supposed to be -901 threat to all targets in 30 yards (if the random posters on Thottbot are to be believed). About -7.5 threat per second if used each time it cools down
It also has the incidental effect of removing some of your dps since you're using a slot for this not something more offensive.
Even though it's a very small contribution if threat is your limiter rather than damage I don't see why people don't mention using it
Timelapse Shard
Binds when picked up
Unique
Trinket
+27 Stamina
Requires Level 70
Requires Keepers of Time - Exalted
Equip: Improves your resilience rating by 24 (0.6%).
Use: Reduces your threat to enemy targets within 30 yards, making them less likely to attack you.
Cooldown: 2 min
Item Level 105
Vendor value: 19 Gold 75 Silver 28 Copper
Vendor cost: 79 Gold 1 Silver 12 Copper
Source: Vendor
or any of the many other similar items including the Sporeggar Cloak
Timelapse Shard is supposed to be -901 threat to all targets in 30 yards (if the random posters on Thottbot are to be believed). About -7.5 threat per second if used each time it cools down
It also has the incidental effect of removing some of your dps since you're using a slot for this not something more offensive.
Even though it's a very small contribution if threat is your limiter rather than damage I don't see why people don't mention using it
|
Originally Posted by Randor
From the OP, which the topic has seemed to stray from quite a bit (myself partially to blame).
I think it's follow the lines of pre-xpac, DPS warriors doing whatever they can to maximize dps while minimizing agro as much as possible. I had Subtlety on a cape during the final days of pre-xpac and others I knew had the agro-reducing trinket from AQ40. |
Edited onPatch 2.1.0.6729
| I have yet to see a fight where a warrior who is using a 2hander, can significantly hold his weight |
| I don't understand why you'd post such a poorly balanced encounter at all to use as proof of your cause |
Last edited by Graul : 06/03/07 at 4:04 PM.
|
Originally Posted by ikillyouheal
I still think Subtlety increases my DPS alot more than 12agi does. I hardly use my Fetish of the Sandreaver but I'd like to get my hands on a Prism of Inner Calm due to the passive threat reduction.
|
|
Originally Posted by Graul
And I'm telling you a Warrior can be competetive with a 2h, because I've been doing it since the patch. I'm done debating it with you though. It's something you have never tried personally, or if you have, were not very efficient at it, so you are going to keep saying it doesn't exist.
Seriously, read what someone wrote before replying with the same rhetoric over and over again. You sound like a broken record. |
I'm fairly sure that I will have a stormherald in the next few days. I can spec into 2handed fury or MS but i'm almost positive my dps will be lackluster simply because 2handers are outpaced by other dps classes due to class mechanics.
Next time you decide to post a screenshot, actually put in the dps and a WWS breakdown along with it so people can actually see how you stack up to other guild's dps. A case of you outgearing the hell out of your guild proves nothing in terms of viability.
When my guild does gruul, our top mage/lock/sp all do 1000+dps. They are all on the brink of pulling aggro no matter how hard they try to keep their threat down. How does that compare to your guild?
Not to say that gruul or mag are bad/good for testing, but then what IS a good way benchmark?
|
Originally Posted by Machinator
Not to say that gruul or mag are bad/good for testing, but then what IS a good way benchmark?
|
|
Originally Posted by Crazypie
It's impossible to do full dps as melee on Gruul w/o a Fetish. I'd go splat every time.
|
Ebonroc or Venoxis for testing DPS on 73 mobs.
(In reply to Machinator)
(In reply to Machinator)
|
Originally Posted by Zaroua
Ebonroc or Venoxis for testing DPS on 73 mobs.
(In reply to Machinator) |
|
Originally Posted by Crazypie
Probably Solarian, Morogrim or Kazzak. It really depends on your strats. It's important to find a fight where you are not completely threat capped ...
|
Reason: periodic knock downs of the tank and the need to watch your mitigation (shield block) because you should not neglect his possible burst damage.
|
Originally Posted by suicuique
You are threat capped at Morogrim. At least thtas my impression as the tank.
Reason: periodic knock downs of the tank and the need to watch your mitigation (shield block) because you should not neglect his possible burst damage. |
But on another note, when I'm dpsing gruul, I can easily outpace our druid who can only do about 700TPS. It's just how fury warriors work.
|
Originally Posted by Crazypie
But on another note, when I'm dpsing gruul, I can easily outpace our druid who can only do about 700TPS. It's just how fury warriors work.
|
|
Originally Posted by Crazypie
That's the problem. I have yet to see an MS warrior or a 2h fury warrior pull off significant dps in a raid setting consistently. The only time a ms warrior shines is if there is a gimmick to a fight requiring quick spurts of aoe like on hydross. However, fury warriors pull off amazing damage whether it be single target, or aoe situations since they have cleave almost taped down with the excess of rage available.
I have seen numerous screenshots of said fury warriors. Just recently, prophet from curse was 2nd on the dmeter in their Hyjal kill shot which is solid proof of fury warrior validity. I have yet to see such screenshots on meaningful content. A screenshot where a warrior is buffed up the wazoo and whailing on gruul that's been farmed for months isn't really useful in terms of gauging a warrior's damage potential. Anybody can do relatively good damage on farmed content when people do not feel the need to push the limits of their potential. |
Edited onPatch 2.1.0.6729
|
Originally Posted by bimmy
Perhaps it's wrong that warriors can do this much damage and threat should be our limiter, but even DRUIDS a hybrid have cower and I've never seen a cat in danger of pulling aggro.
|
That's REALLY theorycrafted, whether it's correct or not. Looking through all the WWS and personal damage meters, the only time you see long term 1000+ dps is on occasions where we can cleave/whirlwind multiple mobs....like Illhoof or Hydross.
You also aren't factoring glances, and no offense, but 1100 auto-attack seems rather high. I don't know if you are theory crafting them without armor or something. I use a gorehowl for my AoE work, and even with 3000 AP buffed you are only looking at a top end of 1200ish pre-armor. So more likely around 1000 auto attacks.
In Theory, we can push thousands of threat per second, but it rarely works out like that. If flurry drops, chain glances, or dodges can leave you rage starved all of a sudden and really kill your DPS in a hurry.
I think a lot of us have biased opinions on what we have personally experienced. Eg. i rarely make top 5 dps, where as Graul is usally top 3. Is that because of gear difference? Skill difference between him and I? Or because the rest of my raids DPS is better then his?
Last edited by Calgar : 06/01/07 at 12:51 PM.
I'm taking the 1100 number from my experience raid buffed hitting fully sundered mobs :o
|
Originally Posted by bimmy
I'm taking the 1100 number from my experience raid buffed hitting fully sundered mobs :o
|
|
Originally Posted by Graul
I've been running around as 31/30 after the patch to grind arena for a better of hand, and I respec so much that I never have any gold, so I've just been raiding with this build. I also am never lower than third, usually second and on some fights first. The only time I am never in the top three, barring death is on something like Tidewalker, where all of the melee remain on him while Warlocks and Mages take care of the murlocs. I don't particularly enjoy raiding with this build for many reasons, and cannot wait to spec back to my regular DW build, but just because you have not seen anyone do extremely well with a 2h build does not mean it doesn't happen.
|
| I think a lot of us have biased opinions on what we have personally experienced. Eg. i rarely make top 5 dps, where as Graul is usally top 3. Is that because of gear difference? Skill difference between him and I? Or because the rest of my raids DPS is better then his? |
Posting a SS of your DPS before 20% would be helpful to give an estimated sustained amount DPS I suppose. Damage divided by seconds and such? Mention whatever damage buffs you have, and use WoW Webstats, etc.
Edited onPatch 2.1.0.6729
|
Originally Posted by Emeraude
Posting a SS of your DPS before 20% would be helpful to give an estimated sustained amount DPS I suppose. Damage divided by seconds and such? Mention whatever damage buffs you have, and use WoW Webstats, etc.
|
It's loosely similar to what Lav has here: http://www.lossendil.com/wws/?report...&s=1832,2573&m
Buffs I had were Might, Kings, LoTP, SoE, WF and 20 str from food. I also died once during a quake that bounced me into a cleave. Amaterassu also died, or else he would have been much higher. Mag might be a horrible fight to use as an example, but it's currently the only "evidence" I have of anything. Obviously some classes were at a disadvantage here due to being on cube duty, but Guildbank is almost always number one on every fight, and since this is a Warrior DPS thread, I don't see how comparing myself to him is irrelevant when talking about a DPS Warrior's use/damage in raids.
What fights do you think are "more fair" to all classes in general that would be worth using?
| But in all truth, I do not find my raid spot deserved unless I'm ATLEAST in top 5 damage done consistantly on a non-gimic fight because of personal beliefs in terms of filling my "dps role." |
| And how much dps or damage done exactly is "never lower than third?" Using placement on a damage meter without providing insight on your guild's overall dps isn't too useful. |
Last edited by Graul : 06/02/07 at 4:58 AM.
What exactly is the point of using Magtheridon as a gauge for DPS? You realize that people are constantly switching out for cube duty, pretty much ruining the fight's potential as a dps benchmark. You also don't consider how warlocks have to constantly watch for infernal drops, and the effect of target switching on SP's and Rogues which greatly lower their damage.
Edited onPatch 2.1.0.6729
|
Originally Posted by Crazypie
You also don't consider how warlocks have to constantly watch for infernal drops, and the effect of target switching on SP's and Rogues which greatly lower their damage.
|
Last edited by Graul : 06/02/07 at 12:40 PM.
|
Originally Posted by Crazypie
Couldn't have said it better myself. It also depends a lot on your strats. I can say for 100% though, if you're top 3 in the Lurker Below, your guild's range is not so good.
|
|
Originally Posted by Graul
Yes I did, please read a persons post fully before replying. And I'm sorry, how exactly do Rogues have to switch targets more than I do? You seem to want to be turning this thread into "2h DPS is not competetive, only DW can do anything" because you just don't want to believe it for whatever reason.
|
I don't understand why you'd post such a poorly balanced encounter at all to use as proof of your cause. It does nothing at all but act as clutter.
And Lurker below is definitely a ranged fight after the patch. Melee are the only ones that get hit by whirl, and they're also threat capped. Ranged on the other hand have no worries at all in terms of threat, and the water does trivial damage meaning they lose maybe 5 seconds per a spout while melee are constantly worried about their hp/dying. Also, your MT can occasionally be knocked out of melee range (depends on your tanks positioning) meaning a mistake by your MT is a melee dps's death.
Shadow Priests especially are free to wreak havok on this boss because of their ability to go all out. A shadow priest with 1000+ shadow damage, raid buffed to the extreme is literally an aggro producing factory (1300+ TPS easily) that rips chunk out of lurker.
|
Originally Posted by Voxx
Basically my question is: what do you see as a future for dps warriors, considering our once limiting factor (rage generation) has all but been removed, and our new limiting factor is putting our rage to more damage per rage point?
Is there really a future at all for dps warriors considering the difficulty in increasing damage per rage we can do? |
I think it's follow the lines of pre-xpac, DPS warriors doing whatever they can to maximize dps while minimizing agro as much as possible. I had Subtlety on a cape during the final days of pre-xpac and others I knew had the agro-reducing trinket from AQ40.
Do any of you use
Timelapse Shard
Binds when picked up
Unique
Trinket
+27 Stamina
Requires Level 70
Requires Keepers of Time - Exalted
Equip: Improves your resilience rating by 24 (0.6%).
Use: Reduces your threat to enemy targets within 30 yards, making them less likely to attack you.
Cooldown: 2 min
Item Level 105
Vendor value: 19 Gold 75 Silver 28 Copper
Vendor cost: 79 Gold 1 Silver 12 Copper
Source: Vendor
or any of the many other similar items including the Sporeggar Cloak
Timelapse Shard is supposed to be -901 threat to all targets in 30 yards (if the random posters on Thottbot are to be believed). About -7.5 threat per second if used each time it cools down
It also has the incidental effect of removing some of your dps since you're using a slot for this not something more offensive.
Even though it's a very small contribution if threat is your limiter rather than damage I don't see why people don't mention using it
Timelapse Shard
Binds when picked up
Unique
Trinket
+27 Stamina
Requires Level 70
Requires Keepers of Time - Exalted
Equip: Improves your resilience rating by 24 (0.6%).
Use: Reduces your threat to enemy targets within 30 yards, making them less likely to attack you.
Cooldown: 2 min
Item Level 105
Vendor value: 19 Gold 75 Silver 28 Copper
Vendor cost: 79 Gold 1 Silver 12 Copper
Source: Vendor
or any of the many other similar items including the Sporeggar Cloak
Timelapse Shard is supposed to be -901 threat to all targets in 30 yards (if the random posters on Thottbot are to be believed). About -7.5 threat per second if used each time it cools down
It also has the incidental effect of removing some of your dps since you're using a slot for this not something more offensive.
Even though it's a very small contribution if threat is your limiter rather than damage I don't see why people don't mention using it
|
Originally Posted by Randor
From the OP, which the topic has seemed to stray from quite a bit (myself partially to blame).
I think it's follow the lines of pre-xpac, DPS warriors doing whatever they can to maximize dps while minimizing agro as much as possible. I had Subtlety on a cape during the final days of pre-xpac and others I knew had the agro-reducing trinket from AQ40. |
Edited onPatch 2.1.0.6729
| I have yet to see a fight where a warrior who is using a 2hander, can significantly hold his weight |
| I don't understand why you'd post such a poorly balanced encounter at all to use as proof of your cause |
Last edited by Graul : 06/03/07 at 4:04 PM.
|
Originally Posted by ikillyouheal
I still think Subtlety increases my DPS alot more than 12agi does. I hardly use my Fetish of the Sandreaver but I'd like to get my hands on a Prism of Inner Calm due to the passive threat reduction.
|
|
Originally Posted by Graul
And I'm telling you a Warrior can be competetive with a 2h, because I've been doing it since the patch. I'm done debating it with you though. It's something you have never tried personally, or if you have, were not very efficient at it, so you are going to keep saying it doesn't exist.
Seriously, read what someone wrote before replying with the same rhetoric over and over again. You sound like a broken record. |
I'm fairly sure that I will have a stormherald in the next few days. I can spec into 2handed fury or MS but i'm almost positive my dps will be lackluster simply because 2handers are outpaced by other dps classes due to class mechanics.
Next time you decide to post a screenshot, actually put in the dps and a WWS breakdown along with it so people can actually see how you stack up to other guild's dps. A case of you outgearing the hell out of your guild proves nothing in terms of viability.
When my guild does gruul, our top mage/lock/sp all do 1000+dps. They are all on the brink of pulling aggro no matter how hard they try to keep their threat down. How does that compare to your guild?
Not to say that gruul or mag are bad/good for testing, but then what IS a good way benchmark?
|
Originally Posted by Machinator
Not to say that gruul or mag are bad/good for testing, but then what IS a good way benchmark?
|
|
Originally Posted by Crazypie
It's impossible to do full dps as melee on Gruul w/o a Fetish. I'd go splat every time.
|
Ebonroc or Venoxis for testing DPS on 73 mobs.
(In reply to Machinator)
(In reply to Machinator)
|
Originally Posted by Zaroua
Ebonroc or Venoxis for testing DPS on 73 mobs.
(In reply to Machinator) |
|
Originally Posted by Crazypie
Probably Solarian, Morogrim or Kazzak. It really depends on your strats. It's important to find a fight where you are not completely threat capped ...
|
Reason: periodic knock downs of the tank and the need to watch your mitigation (shield block) because you should not neglect his possible burst damage.
|
Originally Posted by suicuique
You are threat capped at Morogrim. At least thtas my impression as the tank.
Reason: periodic knock downs of the tank and the need to watch your mitigation (shield block) because you should not neglect his possible burst damage. |
But on another note, when I'm dpsing gruul, I can easily outpace our druid who can only do about 700TPS. It's just how fury warriors work.
|
Originally Posted by Crazypie
But on another note, when I'm dpsing gruul, I can easily outpace our druid who can only do about 700TPS. It's just how fury warriors work.
|
Edited onPatch 2.1.1
DW info
Pre TBC I have always been a MS or off-tank MS spec and back in BWL and AQ days was consistently in the top 3 of raid dps. With the coming of TBC’s smaller raids and lack of WF totems I decided to try out the MS fury 2 hand spec because MS was just falling short of the dps I was used to. It really performed for arena but was still a little low PVE wise without a shammie. Recently I decided to try a deep DW fury build with 15 in prot for tanking heroics (seems really hard these days to get a heroic as a full dps build) My first raid with the DW build I place about 5 to 6 in raid dps and after reading this post I think one of my major problems was using HS WW BT as a main skill set instead of BT WW with HS or Cleave as my rage dump. Though I can say with Salv I had no problems spamming HS the entire fight. Here is a link to our first Gruul kill (yes we are not a ground breaking guild lol) and my first DW run.
http://www.lossendil.com/wws/?report=umvls55anhtkg
I was hoping you guys could give me a little insight into the fury skill cycles and maybe some gear pointers
The gear currently in my Armory profile is my MS gear. My DW gear puts me at 200 to hit around 2200 ap with BS and about 25.5 to crit. Any help would be appreciated.
http://www.lossendil.com/wws/?report=umvls55anhtkg
I was hoping you guys could give me a little insight into the fury skill cycles and maybe some gear pointers
The gear currently in my Armory profile is my MS gear. My DW gear puts me at 200 to hit around 2200 ap with BS and about 25.5 to crit. Any help would be appreciated.
Last edited by Barmbul : 06/05/07 at 6:00 PM. Reason: fixed link
|
Originally Posted by Tzan
That's not just how Fury Warriors work. It's damn easy to hit the threat cap if you are spamming Heroic Strike. But with Blessing of Salvation and using less aggro intensive attacks you shouldn't be in such danger.
|
Warrior
Battle Shout +60 (rank 7)
Cleave1 +130 (rank 6)
Demoralizing Shout +43 (rank 5)
Devastate1 +101 (all ranks)
Hamstring1 +181 (rank 4)
Heroic Strike1 +196 (rank 10)
Notice the large amounts of threat that are associated with both attacks? The only reason people get the impression that cleave is a safe rage dump is because it costs more rage, meaning they can spam it less. However, cleave is nothing more than a giant load of inefficiency (especially untalented).
Maybe that is why you have aggro issues without a Fettish and other Warriors do not and are still topping the charts.
Could I ask about something that completely puzzles me.
I see posts talking about achieving a certain rank on the damage meter, being top 5 or whatever and I can't understand at all why players think that way. If you can do X and come 3rd on the meter or you can do 90% of X while simultaneously buffing 8 other dpsers' damage by 4% and that will get you 8th on the meter surely the latter is preferable.
It's as if Shamans refused to drop Windfury totems for the melee group because a) they get higher personal dps if they use the mana to do a Shock instead and b) if the Warriors and Rogues perform worse the Shaman is likely to end up higher on the damage meter.
Is this something that some raiding dps warriors value themselves (ie you care more about beating the next guy on the meter than beating the boss) or is this something people feel is pushed upon us (ie people think you're rubbish if you come 8th while boosting everyone else)?
I can see Blood Frenzy may be weak in Kara because so much will be Bleed immune. I can see if another dps warrior has it then it's redundant for more warriors to take it too. But if you are the only dps warrior then surely Blood Frenzy is the default talent that must be taken then the rest of the spec built from there.
I see posts talking about achieving a certain rank on the damage meter, being top 5 or whatever and I can't understand at all why players think that way. If you can do X and come 3rd on the meter or you can do 90% of X while simultaneously buffing 8 other dpsers' damage by 4% and that will get you 8th on the meter surely the latter is preferable.
It's as if Shamans refused to drop Windfury totems for the melee group because a) they get higher personal dps if they use the mana to do a Shock instead and b) if the Warriors and Rogues perform worse the Shaman is likely to end up higher on the damage meter.
Is this something that some raiding dps warriors value themselves (ie you care more about beating the next guy on the meter than beating the boss) or is this something people feel is pushed upon us (ie people think you're rubbish if you come 8th while boosting everyone else)?
I can see Blood Frenzy may be weak in Kara because so much will be Bleed immune. I can see if another dps warrior has it then it's redundant for more warriors to take it too. But if you are the only dps warrior then surely Blood Frenzy is the default talent that must be taken then the rest of the spec built from there.
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Originally Posted by Graul
Maybe that is why you have aggro issues without a Fettish and other Warriors do not and are still topping the charts.
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I'd still really like to see a breakdown of your damage done from your entire guild. Something doesn't add up if you're consistently #1 damage done as a 2hander using warrior.
In my spare time, I'm always browsing through Nihilum and DnT forums and their MS wars with Blood Frenzy are never on top. I'm pretty sure, everybody in those two guilds actually know how to play their class to its fullest potential.
How much time is left on Hydross's enrage timer when you down him on average?
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Originally Posted by Crazypie
In my spare time, I'm always browsing through Nihilum and DnT forums and their MS wars with Blood Frenzy are never on top. I'm pretty sure, everybody in those two guilds actually know how to play their class to its fullest potential.
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If you're pulling aggro from your tank you're either a terrible DPSer or your tank is terrible (siding with this, if your casters can't break 1k dps because they're threat limited something is wrong).
You also need to stop being so confrontational, you're coming off as a know-it-all who doesn't actually know it all.
Edited onPatch 2.1.1
I think the fact that top guilds such as DnT and Nihlium have Arms warriors and have them in raids speaks volumes about that tree and its viability in a raid setting. They may not top the meters in most fights but I betcha a dozen Netherwing eggs that they bring other abilities to the raid.
So, we've covered that Arms warriors can contribute to a raid albeit in a different manner than a DW Fury raider.
The fact remains that agro is our biggest problem, be it from a 2hander popping big numbers and big chunks of agro or a DWer who spams Heroic Strikes to keep them near the top of the damage meters.
Personally, I wish zerker stance offered an extra agro reduction to go along with the 10% damage. Imagine an extra -10% threat in Zerker. That to me would be much greater than the paltry 3% crit increase currently offered.
But until that happens, it seems it's the DPS warriors' job to walk that fine line between doing top-notch damage and generating a fatal case of agro-itis.
So, we've covered that Arms warriors can contribute to a raid albeit in a different manner than a DW Fury raider.
The fact remains that agro is our biggest problem, be it from a 2hander popping big numbers and big chunks of agro or a DWer who spams Heroic Strikes to keep them near the top of the damage meters.
Personally, I wish zerker stance offered an extra agro reduction to go along with the 10% damage. Imagine an extra -10% threat in Zerker. That to me would be much greater than the paltry 3% crit increase currently offered.
But until that happens, it seems it's the DPS warriors' job to walk that fine line between doing top-notch damage and generating a fatal case of agro-itis.
Last edited by Randor : 06/06/07 at 9:23 AM. Reason: to clarify an idea.
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Originally Posted by Randor
I think the fact that top guilds such as DnT and Nihlium have Arms warriors and have them in raids speaks volumes about that tree and its viability in a raid setting. They may not top the meters in most fights but I betcha a dozen Netherwing eggs that they bring other abilities to the raid.
So, we've covered that Arms warriors can contribute to a raid albeit in a different manner than a DW Fury raider. The fact remains that agro is our biggest problem, be it from a 2hander popping big numbers and big chunks of agro or a DWer who spams Heroic Strikes to keep them near the top of the damage meters. Personally, I wish zerker stance offered an innate agro reduction to go along with the 10% damage. Imagine -10% threat in Zerker. That to me would be much greater than the paltry 3% crit increase currently offered. But until that happens, it seems it's the DPS warriors' job to walk that fine line between doing top-notch damage and generating a fatal case of agro-itis. |
There is an innate 20% threat reduction in battle and berserker stance.
http://www.thottbot.com/s7381
Edited onPatch 2.1.1
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Originally Posted by Hoonboof
Blood Frenzy warriors are buffers/debuffers, they raise raid DPS enough to justify their lacklustre personal performance. Playing your class to its full potential isn't just topping the damage meters if you're a warrior.
If you're pulling aggro from your tank you're either a terrible DPSer or your tank is terrible (siding with this, if your casters can't break 1k dps because they're threat limited something is wrong). You also need to stop being so confrontational, you're coming off as a know-it-all who doesn't actually know it all. |
However, there are quite a few experienced and geared dw fury warriors who are dishing out incredible amounts of damage, even at the cutting edge stage of progression. I will even post a few:
http://www.curse-guild.org/azgalor.jpg
http://www.curse-guild.org/kael2.jpg
http://www.curse-guild.org/akama.jpg
When a raid leader is selecting participants, honestly, who would be chosen? A fury warrior like prophet, capable of running with some of the best dps'ers in the world or an MS warrior who lies in the middle to low end of damage done providing only blood frenzy which does not account for the damage he is not outputing. It's fine if your guild allows you to stay ms/2hfury incase you like to pvp or something of the sort, but saying it stands up to the dps of a fury warrior just isn't true.
Browsing through Nihilum's forum, I bumped into this topic:
http://www.nihilum.eu/forum/raids-cl...er-second.html
It shows their MS warrior Landolph on a Morogrim clear. Being MS, his damage is not as high as most of the other DPS, and his blood frenzy is not enough to make up for the damage lost from being MS instead of fury. However, that's not to say he doesn't deserve his raid spot, because he's an important part of the raid being a tank and putting out decent damage. But again, he's acting the role of an offtank instead of as the role of dps. Coincidentally, Landolph is now DW Fury.
Last edited by Crazypie : 06/06/07 at 9:14 AM.
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Originally Posted by raiod
I think you should have checked thottbot or wowhead before writing this post.
There is an innate 20% threat reduction in battle and berserker stance. http://www.thottbot.com/s7381 |
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Originally Posted by Randor
You mean you wouldn't want an extra 10% reduction of what is already there?
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Originally Posted by Crazypie
The whole point of this thread is to discuss the viability of dps warriors. If you're not doing considerable damage, what is the point of bringing a dps warrior?
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Originally Posted by Crazypie
When a raid leader is selecting participants, honestly, who would be chosen?
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Anyway, it seems that you're unwilling to see that point of view so I guess it may be pointless to try and explain it to you.
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Originally Posted by Randor
If you can do solid damage and bring something else to the table, why not bring one?
By that argument, why not take another rogue over a DW fury warrior? If anything, a raid leader (I would hope) would choose who offers the most of what is needed, be it pure damage-dealing or other benefits such as imp thunderclap, Blood Frenzy, Demo shout, PH, etc. Anyway, it seems that you're unwilling to see that point of view so I guess it may be pointless to try and explain it to you. |
A DW Fury warrior is useful because he does very sustainable, high dps while being able to put on tanking gear, just like an MS/2h Fury warrior when needed. Also, he has nearly the exact same debuffs available to him while doing more damage. Hence, Landolph is now DW fury.
One last note is, what happens if you are not in an optimal group? Say your shamans are all sick and can't raid. The loss of wf to dw fury warriors is no where near as bad as the loss of wf to arms warriors.
Crazypie's point (to me anyways) is the following;
DW fury > arms DPS....i don't think that you can really dispute that fact
Graul argues that the margin is small enough in his experience, with no evidence to back that up, other then "I'm usually top 3" that blood frenzy will more then make up his viability to the raid.
Crazypie is more on the side of, "We don't have any hard numbers, so it's difficult to prove. If you are brought to DPS, then you better squeeze ever single point of damage possible out of your character."
It's an argument of hybrid vs plate rogue. Almost like comparing an enhancement shaman to a rogue/mage...their DPS isn't going to be nearly as good, but their buffs make up for that lack.
Personally (And sorry once again for not providing any hard numbers here) I think arms spec suffers from the "Big numbers Syndrome", where people are convinced they are doing more DPS because they see bigger number when they hit stuff. It's similar to the destruction vs affliction discussion of warlocks.
At any rate, this thread has convinced me to at least give an arms/fury spec a try one weekend in KZ, or on our next gruul kill....just to see what it feels like.
DW fury > arms DPS....i don't think that you can really dispute that fact
Graul argues that the margin is small enough in his experience, with no evidence to back that up, other then "I'm usually top 3" that blood frenzy will more then make up his viability to the raid.
Crazypie is more on the side of, "We don't have any hard numbers, so it's difficult to prove. If you are brought to DPS, then you better squeeze ever single point of damage possible out of your character."
It's an argument of hybrid vs plate rogue. Almost like comparing an enhancement shaman to a rogue/mage...their DPS isn't going to be nearly as good, but their buffs make up for that lack.
Personally (And sorry once again for not providing any hard numbers here) I think arms spec suffers from the "Big numbers Syndrome", where people are convinced they are doing more DPS because they see bigger number when they hit stuff. It's similar to the destruction vs affliction discussion of warlocks.
At any rate, this thread has convinced me to at least give an arms/fury spec a try one weekend in KZ, or on our next gruul kill....just to see what it feels like.
Good discussion. I wouldn't ever question dw fury > MS. In my case I am part time raid leader/dkp nazi/yell at the screwups/offtank so my raid spot is never really questioned. Like anyone else though I like to do a good job in whatever roll I am playing. A 2h imp slam build is capable of decent dps.
For me at this point my gear and pvp dictate my spec and as long as I can manage I will stay this way. I am working on updated fury gear and look forward to giving that a whirl tbc style when I get there. WTB prism of inner calm
For me at this point my gear and pvp dictate my spec and as long as I can manage I will stay this way. I am working on updated fury gear and look forward to giving that a whirl tbc style when I get there. WTB prism of inner calm
If 50% of raid damage is physical, blood frenzy is a 2% increase to raid DPS. By my calculation, if a DW fury warrior can do over 1.32 times the damage of an arms warrior, then it's better to have that DW fury warrior.
However, another benefit is that it translates to around 5% of extra threat for your MT, which is always nice.
However, another benefit is that it translates to around 5% of extra threat for your MT, which is always nice.
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Originally Posted by nfw
If 50% of raid damage is physical, blood frenzy is a 2% increase to raid DPS. By my calculation, if a DW fury warrior can do over 1.32 times the damage of an arms warrior, then it's better to have that DW fury warrior.
However, another benefit is that it translates to around 5% of extra threat for your MT, which is always nice. |
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Crazypie's point (to me anyways) is the following; DW fury > arms DPS....i don't think that you can really dispute that fact Graul argues that the margin is small enough in his experience, with no evidence to back that up, other then "I'm usually top 3" that blood frenzy will more then make up his viability to the raid. Crazypie is more on the side of, "We don't have any hard numbers, so it's difficult to prove. If you are brought to DPS, then you better squeeze ever single point of damage possible out of your character." It's an argument of hybrid vs plate rogue. Almost like comparing an enhancement shaman to a rogue/mage...their DPS isn't going to be nearly as good, but their buffs make up for that lack. Personally (And sorry once again for not providing any hard numbers here) I think arms spec suffers from the "Big numbers Syndrome", where people are convinced they are doing more DPS because they see bigger number when they hit stuff. It's similar to the destruction vs affliction discussion of warlocks. At any rate, this thread has convinced me to at least give an arms/fury spec a try one weekend in KZ, or on our next gruul kill....just to see what it feels like. |
Edited onPatch 2.1.1
Double post
Last edited by Graul : 06/06/07 at 4:29 PM.
Crazypie, can you post some ss/wws of your dps on raid bosses? I am sure all the Arms warrior reading this thread wants to see what kind of damage you can do.
Edited onPatch 2.1.1
| DW fury > arms DPS....i don't think that you can really dispute that fact |
Also, people need to stop assuming that a 2h build is going to be an "Arms" build, when if you are going to actually try to do adequate damage you are going to at least have 5/5 Flurry. 31/30, 17/44 or 20/41 are the kinds of 2h builds you would use on a raid if you had to use a 2h and were there to DPS, not just as a supplemental DPSer while debuffing.
| I'm always browsing through Nihilum and DnT forums and their MS wars with Blood Frenzy are never on top |
| Graul argues that the margin is small enough in his experience, with no evidence to back that up, other then "I'm usually top 3" that blood frenzy will more then make up his viability to the raid. |
| I think arms spec suffers from the "Big numbers Syndrome", where people are convinced they are doing more DPS because they see bigger number when they hit stuff |
| How much time is left on Hydross's enrage timer when you down him on average? |
Last edited by Graul : 06/06/07 at 4:36 PM.
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Originally Posted by Nen
Crazypie, can you post some ss/wws of your dps on raid bosses? I am sure all the Arms warrior reading this thread wants to see what kind of damage you can do.
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Does anyone have experience going with a hybrid Fury/Prot build? With a 0/31/30 build you lose some pretty hefty DPS talents like Precision, Imp Berserker Stance, Rampage, Impale, and Imp Overpower, but you are able to get 1H spec out of it to balance the loss somewhat. Although the extremely static nature of threat generation without Shield Slam and Devastate is extremely distasteful to me, there's no question that you're gaining some substantial tanking advantage over a 20/41/0 build or something of that nature, and presumbably bringing a little more to the raid as a result.
0/31/30 looks like an off tank build. If you are going that route, you may as well just go 5/43/13 or something similar to that. You gain Toughness and Defiance at the cost of Impale. A minor DPS loss for a decent tanking gain. Some people can't live without Last Stand, even as an off tank, so you could fiddle with points to get that as well if you really needed it. I was 5/43/13 until we stopped doing Karazhan and there was never any issues with being the second tank.
This isn't WWS, but it's good enough to compare my 2h SWstats shot on page 4. This was tonight's Magtheridon with my current gear and build (DW), same buffs and he died about 30 seconds faster this time around.
This was our first Karathress kill from last night. We beat the enrage by one second with a couple of deaths/battle rezes:
Rogues were losing a lot of combo points for a while when having to switch to the spitfire totem.
This was our first Karathress kill from last night. We beat the enrage by one second with a couple of deaths/battle rezes:
Rogues were losing a lot of combo points for a while when having to switch to the spitfire totem.
Graul, from the limited information provided, it seems that the damage of a 31/30 is pretty similar to a DW 17/44. I would assume the difference in dps due to T3 1hander vs gorehowl/mooncleaver?
I find on most fights I am capped by threat not damage, how much do you have to hold back as a 17/44? Or do you chain spam HS?
I find on most fights I am capped by threat not damage, how much do you have to hold back as a 17/44? Or do you chain spam HS?
Edited onPatch 2.1.1
DW info
Pre TBC I have always been a MS or off-tank MS spec and back in BWL and AQ days was consistently in the top 3 of raid dps. With the coming of TBC’s smaller raids and lack of WF totems I decided to try out the MS fury 2 hand spec because MS was just falling short of the dps I was used to. It really performed for arena but was still a little low PVE wise without a shammie. Recently I decided to try a deep DW fury build with 15 in prot for tanking heroics (seems really hard these days to get a heroic as a full dps build) My first raid with the DW build I place about 5 to 6 in raid dps and after reading this post I think one of my major problems was using HS WW BT as a main skill set instead of BT WW with HS or Cleave as my rage dump. Though I can say with Salv I had no problems spamming HS the entire fight. Here is a link to our first Gruul kill (yes we are not a ground breaking guild lol) and my first DW run.
http://www.lossendil.com/wws/?report=umvls55anhtkg
I was hoping you guys could give me a little insight into the fury skill cycles and maybe some gear pointers
The gear currently in my Armory profile is my MS gear. My DW gear puts me at 200 to hit around 2200 ap with BS and about 25.5 to crit. Any help would be appreciated.
http://www.lossendil.com/wws/?report=umvls55anhtkg
I was hoping you guys could give me a little insight into the fury skill cycles and maybe some gear pointers
The gear currently in my Armory profile is my MS gear. My DW gear puts me at 200 to hit around 2200 ap with BS and about 25.5 to crit. Any help would be appreciated.
Last edited by Barmbul : 06/05/07 at 6:00 PM. Reason: fixed link
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Originally Posted by Tzan
That's not just how Fury Warriors work. It's damn easy to hit the threat cap if you are spamming Heroic Strike. But with Blessing of Salvation and using less aggro intensive attacks you shouldn't be in such danger.
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Warrior
Battle Shout +60 (rank 7)
Cleave1 +130 (rank 6)
Demoralizing Shout +43 (rank 5)
Devastate1 +101 (all ranks)
Hamstring1 +181 (rank 4)
Heroic Strike1 +196 (rank 10)
Notice the large amounts of threat that are associated with both attacks? The only reason people get the impression that cleave is a safe rage dump is because it costs more rage, meaning they can spam it less. However, cleave is nothing more than a giant load of inefficiency (especially untalented).
Maybe that is why you have aggro issues without a Fettish and other Warriors do not and are still topping the charts.
Could I ask about something that completely puzzles me.
I see posts talking about achieving a certain rank on the damage meter, being top 5 or whatever and I can't understand at all why players think that way. If you can do X and come 3rd on the meter or you can do 90% of X while simultaneously buffing 8 other dpsers' damage by 4% and that will get you 8th on the meter surely the latter is preferable.
It's as if Shamans refused to drop Windfury totems for the melee group because a) they get higher personal dps if they use the mana to do a Shock instead and b) if the Warriors and Rogues perform worse the Shaman is likely to end up higher on the damage meter.
Is this something that some raiding dps warriors value themselves (ie you care more about beating the next guy on the meter than beating the boss) or is this something people feel is pushed upon us (ie people think you're rubbish if you come 8th while boosting everyone else)?
I can see Blood Frenzy may be weak in Kara because so much will be Bleed immune. I can see if another dps warrior has it then it's redundant for more warriors to take it too. But if you are the only dps warrior then surely Blood Frenzy is the default talent that must be taken then the rest of the spec built from there.
I see posts talking about achieving a certain rank on the damage meter, being top 5 or whatever and I can't understand at all why players think that way. If you can do X and come 3rd on the meter or you can do 90% of X while simultaneously buffing 8 other dpsers' damage by 4% and that will get you 8th on the meter surely the latter is preferable.
It's as if Shamans refused to drop Windfury totems for the melee group because a) they get higher personal dps if they use the mana to do a Shock instead and b) if the Warriors and Rogues perform worse the Shaman is likely to end up higher on the damage meter.
Is this something that some raiding dps warriors value themselves (ie you care more about beating the next guy on the meter than beating the boss) or is this something people feel is pushed upon us (ie people think you're rubbish if you come 8th while boosting everyone else)?
I can see Blood Frenzy may be weak in Kara because so much will be Bleed immune. I can see if another dps warrior has it then it's redundant for more warriors to take it too. But if you are the only dps warrior then surely Blood Frenzy is the default talent that must be taken then the rest of the spec built from there.
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Originally Posted by Graul
Maybe that is why you have aggro issues without a Fettish and other Warriors do not and are still topping the charts.
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I'd still really like to see a breakdown of your damage done from your entire guild. Something doesn't add up if you're consistently #1 damage done as a 2hander using warrior.
In my spare time, I'm always browsing through Nihilum and DnT forums and their MS wars with Blood Frenzy are never on top. I'm pretty sure, everybody in those two guilds actually know how to play their class to its fullest potential.
How much time is left on Hydross's enrage timer when you down him on average?
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Originally Posted by Crazypie
In my spare time, I'm always browsing through Nihilum and DnT forums and their MS wars with Blood Frenzy are never on top. I'm pretty sure, everybody in those two guilds actually know how to play their class to its fullest potential.
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If you're pulling aggro from your tank you're either a terrible DPSer or your tank is terrible (siding with this, if your casters can't break 1k dps because they're threat limited something is wrong).
You also need to stop being so confrontational, you're coming off as a know-it-all who doesn't actually know it all.
Edited onPatch 2.1.1
I think the fact that top guilds such as DnT and Nihlium have Arms warriors and have them in raids speaks volumes about that tree and its viability in a raid setting. They may not top the meters in most fights but I betcha a dozen Netherwing eggs that they bring other abilities to the raid.
So, we've covered that Arms warriors can contribute to a raid albeit in a different manner than a DW Fury raider.
The fact remains that agro is our biggest problem, be it from a 2hander popping big numbers and big chunks of agro or a DWer who spams Heroic Strikes to keep them near the top of the damage meters.
Personally, I wish zerker stance offered an extra agro reduction to go along with the 10% damage. Imagine an extra -10% threat in Zerker. That to me would be much greater than the paltry 3% crit increase currently offered.
But until that happens, it seems it's the DPS warriors' job to walk that fine line between doing top-notch damage and generating a fatal case of agro-itis.
So, we've covered that Arms warriors can contribute to a raid albeit in a different manner than a DW Fury raider.
The fact remains that agro is our biggest problem, be it from a 2hander popping big numbers and big chunks of agro or a DWer who spams Heroic Strikes to keep them near the top of the damage meters.
Personally, I wish zerker stance offered an extra agro reduction to go along with the 10% damage. Imagine an extra -10% threat in Zerker. That to me would be much greater than the paltry 3% crit increase currently offered.
But until that happens, it seems it's the DPS warriors' job to walk that fine line between doing top-notch damage and generating a fatal case of agro-itis.
Last edited by Randor : 06/06/07 at 9:23 AM. Reason: to clarify an idea.
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Originally Posted by Randor
I think the fact that top guilds such as DnT and Nihlium have Arms warriors and have them in raids speaks volumes about that tree and its viability in a raid setting. They may not top the meters in most fights but I betcha a dozen Netherwing eggs that they bring other abilities to the raid.
So, we've covered that Arms warriors can contribute to a raid albeit in a different manner than a DW Fury raider. The fact remains that agro is our biggest problem, be it from a 2hander popping big numbers and big chunks of agro or a DWer who spams Heroic Strikes to keep them near the top of the damage meters. Personally, I wish zerker stance offered an innate agro reduction to go along with the 10% damage. Imagine -10% threat in Zerker. That to me would be much greater than the paltry 3% crit increase currently offered. But until that happens, it seems it's the DPS warriors' job to walk that fine line between doing top-notch damage and generating a fatal case of agro-itis. |
There is an innate 20% threat reduction in battle and berserker stance.
http://www.thottbot.com/s7381
Edited onPatch 2.1.1
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Originally Posted by Hoonboof
Blood Frenzy warriors are buffers/debuffers, they raise raid DPS enough to justify their lacklustre personal performance. Playing your class to its full potential isn't just topping the damage meters if you're a warrior.
If you're pulling aggro from your tank you're either a terrible DPSer or your tank is terrible (siding with this, if your casters can't break 1k dps because they're threat limited something is wrong). You also need to stop being so confrontational, you're coming off as a know-it-all who doesn't actually know it all. |
However, there are quite a few experienced and geared dw fury warriors who are dishing out incredible amounts of damage, even at the cutting edge stage of progression. I will even post a few:
http://www.curse-guild.org/azgalor.jpg
http://www.curse-guild.org/kael2.jpg
http://www.curse-guild.org/akama.jpg
When a raid leader is selecting participants, honestly, who would be chosen? A fury warrior like prophet, capable of running with some of the best dps'ers in the world or an MS warrior who lies in the middle to low end of damage done providing only blood frenzy which does not account for the damage he is not outputing. It's fine if your guild allows you to stay ms/2hfury incase you like to pvp or something of the sort, but saying it stands up to the dps of a fury warrior just isn't true.
Browsing through Nihilum's forum, I bumped into this topic:
http://www.nihilum.eu/forum/raids-cl...er-second.html
It shows their MS warrior Landolph on a Morogrim clear. Being MS, his damage is not as high as most of the other DPS, and his blood frenzy is not enough to make up for the damage lost from being MS instead of fury. However, that's not to say he doesn't deserve his raid spot, because he's an important part of the raid being a tank and putting out decent damage. But again, he's acting the role of an offtank instead of as the role of dps. Coincidentally, Landolph is now DW Fury.
Last edited by Crazypie : 06/06/07 at 9:14 AM.
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Originally Posted by raiod
I think you should have checked thottbot or wowhead before writing this post.
There is an innate 20% threat reduction in battle and berserker stance. http://www.thottbot.com/s7381 |
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Originally Posted by Randor
You mean you wouldn't want an extra 10% reduction of what is already there?
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Originally Posted by Crazypie
The whole point of this thread is to discuss the viability of dps warriors. If you're not doing considerable damage, what is the point of bringing a dps warrior?
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Originally Posted by Crazypie
When a raid leader is selecting participants, honestly, who would be chosen?
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Anyway, it seems that you're unwilling to see that point of view so I guess it may be pointless to try and explain it to you.
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Originally Posted by Randor
If you can do solid damage and bring something else to the table, why not bring one?
By that argument, why not take another rogue over a DW fury warrior? If anything, a raid leader (I would hope) would choose who offers the most of what is needed, be it pure damage-dealing or other benefits such as imp thunderclap, Blood Frenzy, Demo shout, PH, etc. Anyway, it seems that you're unwilling to see that point of view so I guess it may be pointless to try and explain it to you. |
A DW Fury warrior is useful because he does very sustainable, high dps while being able to put on tanking gear, just like an MS/2h Fury warrior when needed. Also, he has nearly the exact same debuffs available to him while doing more damage. Hence, Landolph is now DW fury.
One last note is, what happens if you are not in an optimal group? Say your shamans are all sick and can't raid. The loss of wf to dw fury warriors is no where near as bad as the loss of wf to arms warriors.
Crazypie's point (to me anyways) is the following;
DW fury > arms DPS....i don't think that you can really dispute that fact
Graul argues that the margin is small enough in his experience, with no evidence to back that up, other then "I'm usually top 3" that blood frenzy will more then make up his viability to the raid.
Crazypie is more on the side of, "We don't have any hard numbers, so it's difficult to prove. If you are brought to DPS, then you better squeeze ever single point of damage possible out of your character."
It's an argument of hybrid vs plate rogue. Almost like comparing an enhancement shaman to a rogue/mage...their DPS isn't going to be nearly as good, but their buffs make up for that lack.
Personally (And sorry once again for not providing any hard numbers here) I think arms spec suffers from the "Big numbers Syndrome", where people are convinced they are doing more DPS because they see bigger number when they hit stuff. It's similar to the destruction vs affliction discussion of warlocks.
At any rate, this thread has convinced me to at least give an arms/fury spec a try one weekend in KZ, or on our next gruul kill....just to see what it feels like.
DW fury > arms DPS....i don't think that you can really dispute that fact
Graul argues that the margin is small enough in his experience, with no evidence to back that up, other then "I'm usually top 3" that blood frenzy will more then make up his viability to the raid.
Crazypie is more on the side of, "We don't have any hard numbers, so it's difficult to prove. If you are brought to DPS, then you better squeeze ever single point of damage possible out of your character."
It's an argument of hybrid vs plate rogue. Almost like comparing an enhancement shaman to a rogue/mage...their DPS isn't going to be nearly as good, but their buffs make up for that lack.
Personally (And sorry once again for not providing any hard numbers here) I think arms spec suffers from the "Big numbers Syndrome", where people are convinced they are doing more DPS because they see bigger number when they hit stuff. It's similar to the destruction vs affliction discussion of warlocks.
At any rate, this thread has convinced me to at least give an arms/fury spec a try one weekend in KZ, or on our next gruul kill....just to see what it feels like.
Good discussion. I wouldn't ever question dw fury > MS. In my case I am part time raid leader/dkp nazi/yell at the screwups/offtank so my raid spot is never really questioned. Like anyone else though I like to do a good job in whatever roll I am playing. A 2h imp slam build is capable of decent dps.
For me at this point my gear and pvp dictate my spec and as long as I can manage I will stay this way. I am working on updated fury gear and look forward to giving that a whirl tbc style when I get there. WTB prism of inner calm
For me at this point my gear and pvp dictate my spec and as long as I can manage I will stay this way. I am working on updated fury gear and look forward to giving that a whirl tbc style when I get there. WTB prism of inner calm
If 50% of raid damage is physical, blood frenzy is a 2% increase to raid DPS. By my calculation, if a DW fury warrior can do over 1.32 times the damage of an arms warrior, then it's better to have that DW fury warrior.
However, another benefit is that it translates to around 5% of extra threat for your MT, which is always nice.
However, another benefit is that it translates to around 5% of extra threat for your MT, which is always nice.
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Originally Posted by nfw
If 50% of raid damage is physical, blood frenzy is a 2% increase to raid DPS. By my calculation, if a DW fury warrior can do over 1.32 times the damage of an arms warrior, then it's better to have that DW fury warrior.
However, another benefit is that it translates to around 5% of extra threat for your MT, which is always nice. |
|
Crazypie's point (to me anyways) is the following; DW fury > arms DPS....i don't think that you can really dispute that fact Graul argues that the margin is small enough in his experience, with no evidence to back that up, other then "I'm usually top 3" that blood frenzy will more then make up his viability to the raid. Crazypie is more on the side of, "We don't have any hard numbers, so it's difficult to prove. If you are brought to DPS, then you better squeeze ever single point of damage possible out of your character." It's an argument of hybrid vs plate rogue. Almost like comparing an enhancement shaman to a rogue/mage...their DPS isn't going to be nearly as good, but their buffs make up for that lack. Personally (And sorry once again for not providing any hard numbers here) I think arms spec suffers from the "Big numbers Syndrome", where people are convinced they are doing more DPS because they see bigger number when they hit stuff. It's similar to the destruction vs affliction discussion of warlocks. At any rate, this thread has convinced me to at least give an arms/fury spec a try one weekend in KZ, or on our next gruul kill....just to see what it feels like. |
Edited onPatch 2.1.1
Double post
Last edited by Graul : 06/06/07 at 4:29 PM.
Crazypie, can you post some ss/wws of your dps on raid bosses? I am sure all the Arms warrior reading this thread wants to see what kind of damage you can do.
Edited onPatch 2.1.1
| DW fury > arms DPS....i don't think that you can really dispute that fact |
Also, people need to stop assuming that a 2h build is going to be an "Arms" build, when if you are going to actually try to do adequate damage you are going to at least have 5/5 Flurry. 31/30, 17/44 or 20/41 are the kinds of 2h builds you would use on a raid if you had to use a 2h and were there to DPS, not just as a supplemental DPSer while debuffing.
| I'm always browsing through Nihilum and DnT forums and their MS wars with Blood Frenzy are never on top |
| Graul argues that the margin is small enough in his experience, with no evidence to back that up, other then "I'm usually top 3" that blood frenzy will more then make up his viability to the raid. |
| I think arms spec suffers from the "Big numbers Syndrome", where people are convinced they are doing more DPS because they see bigger number when they hit stuff |
| How much time is left on Hydross's enrage timer when you down him on average? |
Last edited by Graul : 06/06/07 at 4:36 PM.
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Originally Posted by Nen
Crazypie, can you post some ss/wws of your dps on raid bosses? I am sure all the Arms warrior reading this thread wants to see what kind of damage you can do.
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Does anyone have experience going with a hybrid Fury/Prot build? With a 0/31/30 build you lose some pretty hefty DPS talents like Precision, Imp Berserker Stance, Rampage, Impale, and Imp Overpower, but you are able to get 1H spec out of it to balance the loss somewhat. Although the extremely static nature of threat generation without Shield Slam and Devastate is extremely distasteful to me, there's no question that you're gaining some substantial tanking advantage over a 20/41/0 build or something of that nature, and presumbably bringing a little more to the raid as a result.
0/31/30 looks like an off tank build. If you are going that route, you may as well just go 5/43/13 or something similar to that. You gain Toughness and Defiance at the cost of Impale. A minor DPS loss for a decent tanking gain. Some people can't live without Last Stand, even as an off tank, so you could fiddle with points to get that as well if you really needed it. I was 5/43/13 until we stopped doing Karazhan and there was never any issues with being the second tank.
This isn't WWS, but it's good enough to compare my 2h SWstats shot on page 4. This was tonight's Magtheridon with my current gear and build (DW), same buffs and he died about 30 seconds faster this time around.
This was our first Karathress kill from last night. We beat the enrage by one second with a couple of deaths/battle rezes:
Rogues were losing a lot of combo points for a while when having to switch to the spitfire totem.
This was our first Karathress kill from last night. We beat the enrage by one second with a couple of deaths/battle rezes:
Rogues were losing a lot of combo points for a while when having to switch to the spitfire totem.
Graul, from the limited information provided, it seems that the damage of a 31/30 is pretty similar to a DW 17/44. I would assume the difference in dps due to T3 1hander vs gorehowl/mooncleaver?
I find on most fights I am capped by threat not damage, how much do you have to hold back as a 17/44? Or do you chain spam HS?
I find on most fights I am capped by threat not damage, how much do you have to hold back as a 17/44? Or do you chain spam HS?
Were you on cube rotations for mag? From the previous screen shot it looks like you were up over 130+ dps from the 2 handed build of the previous week (The numbers are a little cut off, but it looks like it was 8XX dps, and this week's was 1036). Which is an improvement of at least 15% dps, but only an improvement of 5% actual damage...so your raid stepped it up a fair bit as well.
And no comment on the Karaththress fight....i have no experience with it.
Judging from the DPS listed at the top of SWStats you are right up there in terms of warrior DPS.
And no comment on the Karaththress fight....i have no experience with it.
Judging from the DPS listed at the top of SWStats you are right up there in terms of warrior DPS.
Edited onPatch 2.1.1
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Originally Posted by Graul
0/31/30 looks like an off tank build. If you are going that route, you may as well just go 5/43/13 or something similar to that. You gain Toughness and Defiance at the cost of Impale. A minor DPS loss for a decent tanking gain. Some people can't live without Last Stand, even as an off tank, so you could fiddle with points to get that as well if you really needed it. I was 5/43/13 until we stopped doing Karazhan and there was never any issues with being the second tank.
|
My current has a bit more emphasise on actual damage: 2/44/13
http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=LbZVVzVgxoVuVo0Ezoh
This is an easy swap for Deflection: 4/42/13
http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=LmZVVzVxxoVuVo0Ezoh
(Could drop P.Howl for 1 more point in Deflection if you really want it maxxed.
Basicly the differance in mine and Grauls is that I would assume he generally only tanked Karazhan. I am still Hybrid because I am usually confuddled into tanking Magtheridon adds, Hydross adds, etc. As he says above Toughness is great, in my opinion Shield Specalization is just a superiour talent to spend points on to open up Improved Shield Block. For a meager 2 extra points you can throw in Last Stand and Improved Shield Block which greatly increase your tanking viability.
If your going to be tanking a decent bit, I would suggest going with my above route, if only occasionally (or for say Karazhan) you should be fine with only 13 in Protection.
Last edited by Surion : 06/08/07 at 1:14 PM. Reason: Clarifying from Apate's response
| in my opinion Shield Specalization is just a superiour talent |
|
Originally Posted by Nen
Graul, from the limited information provided, it seems that the damage of a 31/30 is pretty similar to a DW 17/44. I would assume the difference in dps due to T3 1hander vs gorehowl/mooncleaver?
I find on most fights I am capped by threat not damage, how much do you have to hold back as a 17/44? Or do you chain spam HS? |
As full 17/44/0 I will stay neck and neck with him every fight.
However our melee group as of late has been running heavy, we finally got an Enhancement Shaman who isn't worthless, and always have a Feral Druid and we all have very good gear for our content (No bosses in SSC down yet, everything else on farm for months due to guild issues).
If you keep up HS constantly you will become threat capped quick, no real way around it; especially if you are running WF. Just make sure you have Salv and watch KTM.
Something like Gruul there is no way I can go all out keeping my trinket and DeathWish on cooldown spamming HS. Magtheridon assuming I am not tanking, the tank can usually get a good enough leadup. Lately when I am running raids, I have been dropping an extra Prot Warrior in the MT's group for BattleShout or a Resto Shaman for his own Windfury to help threat generation, we have some pretty big aggro-whores aside from just myself!
Edited onPatch 2.1.1
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Originally Posted by Apate
Why? Because of the rage generation?
|
I could live without Last Stand, I couldn't live without Improved Shield Block if I am going to tank any raid content!
Though as a Hybrid tank you most likely arn't rolling in the Prot Gear; so you could argue that the extra 5% block is better than the increase in Armor, I haven't done the math and am not very keen to!
Last edited by Surion : 06/08/07 at 1:12 PM. Reason: Clarification
Edited onPatch 2.1.1
| I find on most fights I am capped by threat not damage, how much do you have to hold back as a 17/44? Or do you chain spam HS? |
| I would assume the difference in dps due to T3 1hander vs gorehowl/mooncleaver? |
| Were you on cube rotations for mag? From the previous screen shot it looks like you were up over 130+ dps from the 2 handed build of the previous week (The numbers are a little cut off, but it looks like it was 8XX dps, and this week's was 1036). Which is an improvement of at least 15% dps, but only an improvement of 5% actual damage...so your raid stepped it up a fair bit as well. |
Last edited by Graul : 06/08/07 at 5:43 PM.
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Originally Posted by Nezralix
Does anyone have experience going with a hybrid Fury/Prot build? With a 0/31/30 build you lose some pretty hefty DPS talents like Precision, Imp Berserker Stance, Rampage, Impale, and Imp Overpower, but you are able to get 1H spec out of it to balance the loss somewhat. Although the extremely static nature of threat generation without Shield Slam and Devastate is extremely distasteful to me, there's no question that you're gaining some substantial tanking advantage over a 20/41/0 build or something of that nature, and presumbably bringing a little more to the raid as a result.
|
As your raid dps grows, the you can see the wall coming with TPS, as progression grows, you can see the wall coming with mitigation...with all that said, it was a lot of fun, and it has a stunning amount of utility.|
Originally Posted by Nezralix
Does anyone have experience going with a hybrid Fury/Prot build? With a 0/31/30 build you lose some pretty hefty DPS talents like Precision, Imp Berserker Stance, Rampage, Impale, and Imp Overpower, but you are able to get 1H spec out of it to balance the loss somewhat. Although the extremely static nature of threat generation without Shield Slam and Devastate is extremely distasteful to me, there's no question that you're gaining some substantial tanking advantage over a 20/41/0 build or something of that nature, and presumbably bringing a little more to the raid as a result.
|
As your raid dps grows, the you can see the wall coming with TPS, as progression grows, you can see the wall coming with mitigation...with all that said, it was a lot of fun, and it has a stunning amount of utility.|
Originally Posted by Nezralix
Does anyone have experience going with a hybrid Fury/Prot build? With a 0/31/30 build you lose some pretty hefty DPS talents like Precision, Imp Berserker Stance, Rampage, Impale, and Imp Overpower, but you are able to get 1H spec out of it to balance the loss somewhat. Although the extremely static nature of threat generation without Shield Slam and Devastate is extremely distasteful to me, there's no question that you're gaining some substantial tanking advantage over a 20/41/0 build or something of that nature, and presumbably bringing a little more to the raid as a result.
|
As your raid dps grows, the you can see the wall coming with TPS, as progression grows, you can see the wall coming with mitigation...with all that said, it was a lot of fun, and it has a stunning amount of utility.Deja vu x 3.
Deja vu x 3.
Deja vu x ... you get the idea.
Deja vu x 3.
Deja vu x ... you get the idea.
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Originally Posted by Surion
I could live without Last Stand, I couldn't live without Improved Shield Block if I am going to tank any raid content!
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Originally Posted by Amorpheus
Why? I don't remember being crushed by anything that required me in the "extra tank" role. Nothing aside from the bosses themselves is high enough.
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There's other stuff (channelers at mag), tidalvess, etc at various tiers. I think his point is that if you are spending a few points in prot presuming that you'll be tanking something meaningful, the extra block on shield block is worth more to him than the extra ac on toughness, particularly since you'll generally be more susceptible to spiking death than a full prot would be.
Obviously full prot takes both, I think his case is for the 14 or so points in prot builds, he'd rather have imp shield block than toughness, which is arguable. Depends on if you value the extra spike protection more than the reduced overall damage as an off-tank. Personally I like blue.
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Originally Posted by dawgg
Deathwing (of dps warrior spreadsheet fame) proposed this 0/31/30 pre-tbc as a build that could approach 95% dps of full fury/arms because of the 1h spec boost. I ran this way for a few months. My anecdotal observations are that, assuming you are well geared for both roles, you can deliver top quartile dps, and an itemrack change later, tank just about anything pre-ssc. People tend to think you are prot by your mob control; it's pretty funny when they go look at the armory
As your raid dps grows, the you can see the wall coming with TPS, as progression grows, you can see the wall coming with mitigation...with all that said, it was a lot of fun, and it has a stunning amount of utility. |
Not sure of any "protection" build without 5/5 in Parry and even 3/3 in Imp TC these days.
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Originally Posted by Randor
Not sure of any "protection" build without 5/5 in Parry and even 3/3 in Imp TC these days.
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And that being said, still waiting on my guild's enhancement shaman to return from vacation
. No windfury + UR + SoE means no reason to even put up WWS's. Should be back Monday.| And that being said, still waiting on my guild's enhancement shaman to return from vacation . No windfury + UR + SoE means no reason to even put up WWS's. Should be back Monday. |
Anyways, back on topic.
| On a fight like Tidewalker, I have to step out about halfway through the fight for a few Murloc packs if I want to do anything other than just stand there with attack off. On any other fight it's fine as long as BoS is kept up, and I only HS a boss (adds don't really matter nearly as much since they die so fast) if I am really far behind the tank in threat and the fight still has a ways to go. I also only ever HS as a rage dump and never ever as a primary source of damage. |
I don't know if your threat meters are out of whack because you are whirl-winding multiple adds and it's not set to master target, or if you never have BoS, or your MT stinks....i don't get it. I never get anywhere near the MT in threat unless he's getting stunned/knocked back or there is a de-agro component to the fight.
BoS + innate berserk stance threat generation is 56% of normal (if im not mistaken). If your MT can maintain 900 TPS, you should need to maintain something like 2000+ dps in order to pull agro. Even factoring in heavy HS usage and an optimal 1100 average DPS, it shouldn't be possible.
Generally speaking, if the MT has had 10 seconds alone with the mob, i don't ever have to look at the threat meters.
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Originally Posted by Calgar
I don't get it...it's almost mathematically impossible to pull threat off of a good main-tank if you have blessing of salvation.
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He puts an attack speed debuff on your MT that increases the time between his attacks by 400% (Tidal Wave) which makes it hard for him to sustain something like 900 TPS over the whole fight.
It's quite easy to pull aggro under these circumstances, even with BoS.
Fair enough. I'm not familiar with any SSC fights other then the strats i have read online and first hand experience with Lurker.
Our guild has downed Mag once and has 2-3 nights worth of attempts on Lurker.
Our guild has downed Mag once and has 2-3 nights worth of attempts on Lurker.
what sort of dps do you guys think would be possible with the best gear out atm? threat nonwithstanding
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Originally Posted by nubb3y
what sort of dps do you guys think would be possible with the best gear out atm? threat nonwithstanding
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In regards to morogrim, you're tank is probably pretty good if he can keep up 700 TPS w/ a windfury totem. Our main tank blocks for about 600 so his Shield Slam really helps out his threat gen even though Tidal Wave destroys his white damage/heroic striking. It also helps that morogrim hits RIDICULOUSLY hard meaning rage is not the problem at all.
1500 is reasonable in a stacked scenario.
- Full T6 level DPS gear with dual 100 dps weapons (If not the legendary sword off of illidan himself).
-Enhancement shaman; totems/UR
- Hunter; TS Aura, improved mark
- Druid ; Ilotp, FF on the mob
- Ret paladin in group; Sanct aura (2% more damage?), and imp crusader on the mob
- FULL buffs; flask or 2 elixirs, mark, fort, BS, rampage, food buff, world buffs, sharpening stone on off-hand, might, kings, salv
- Fully debuffed mob; sunder, FF, CoR, blood frenzy.
- Completely Immobile boss, able to attack from behind....preferably low armor to start off with.
That's single target of course....when we can get 2+ mobs close together cleave/whirlwind will raise that a bit.
- Full T6 level DPS gear with dual 100 dps weapons (If not the legendary sword off of illidan himself).
-Enhancement shaman; totems/UR
- Hunter; TS Aura, improved mark
- Druid ; Ilotp, FF on the mob
- Ret paladin in group; Sanct aura (2% more damage?), and imp crusader on the mob
- FULL buffs; flask or 2 elixirs, mark, fort, BS, rampage, food buff, world buffs, sharpening stone on off-hand, might, kings, salv
- Fully debuffed mob; sunder, FF, CoR, blood frenzy.
- Completely Immobile boss, able to attack from behind....preferably low armor to start off with.
That's single target of course....when we can get 2+ mobs close together cleave/whirlwind will raise that a bit.
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Originally Posted by Calgar
I don't get it...it's almost mathematically impossible to pull threat off of a good main-tank if you have blessing of salvation.
I don't know if your threat meters are out of whack because you are whirl-winding multiple adds and it's not set to master target, or if you never have BoS, or your MT stinks....i don't get it. I never get anywhere near the MT in threat unless he's getting stunned/knocked back or there is a de-agro component to the fight. BoS + innate berserk stance threat generation is 56% of normal (if im not mistaken). If your MT can maintain 900 TPS, you should need to maintain something like 2000+ dps in order to pull agro. Even factoring in heavy HS usage and an optimal 1100 average DPS, it shouldn't be possible. Generally speaking, if the MT has had 10 seconds alone with the mob, i don't ever have to look at the threat meters. |
I think it's interesting that max DPS in a stacked scenario is only 1500 when back pre-expansion a warrior put out 1550 DPS on patchwerk. Now a few things have changed. The two biggest ones are nerfs to pots/world buffs and rage generation. This warrior had ever pot and world buff there was. And along with the best warrior DPS gear in the game his rage bar was practically full all the time.
| Well I do, and I am constantly catching up. Our MT only seems to be able to do 550 TPS tops on this fight and refuses to grab devastate. |
Your DPS meter from Magtheridon of 1036 DPS for example. Lets go to the extreme of spamming HS the whole time and flurry up the whole time for max possible threat generation.
1036 DPS *0.56 (berserk stance + salvation threat reduction) = ~580 TPS
Heroic strike every 2.025 seconds at +196 threat per use, *.56 = 54.02 TPS
= 634 TPS.
Well, that's why you have an issue with your tank only doing 550 TPS on tidewalker, you are likely above that mark be a fair margin.
Any prot warrior worth ANYTHING should be able to destroy 640 TPS by at LEAST 20% on any standard fight. Combined with the fact that a fair portion of your damage comes late in the fight with a recklessness/deathwish/trinket/execute spam makes it even LESS likely you will pull agro early, barring some manner of 100% proc rate on WF for 20 seconds or something of course.
Is there something obvious I'm overlooking here? Is the threat bonus from berserk stance gone post-expansion? Doesn't stack with BoS like i think it does? KTM WAAAAY off?
On a side note Graul, any chance you used to play a Warlock on the Warsong server a ways back? i knew someone with your name, and i heard he re-rolled warrior elsewhere.
I remember pushing out 950~dps(Over the whole fight) on Patchwerk with only raidbuffs/minor consumables back in the days. To be honest it's the threat holding me back now, I'm not enjoying the role of a DPS warrior when I'm constantly capped by the threat on most encounters.
I'm pretty decked out from SSC/TK apart from weapons, and the position I'm in is _NOT FUN_(Sorry for caps, but I had to do it).
I'm pretty decked out from SSC/TK apart from weapons, and the position I'm in is _NOT FUN_(Sorry for caps, but I had to do it).
Were you on cube rotations for mag? From the previous screen shot it looks like you were up over 130+ dps from the 2 handed build of the previous week (The numbers are a little cut off, but it looks like it was 8XX dps, and this week's was 1036). Which is an improvement of at least 15% dps, but only an improvement of 5% actual damage...so your raid stepped it up a fair bit as well.
And no comment on the Karaththress fight....i have no experience with it.
Judging from the DPS listed at the top of SWStats you are right up there in terms of warrior DPS.
And no comment on the Karaththress fight....i have no experience with it.
Judging from the DPS listed at the top of SWStats you are right up there in terms of warrior DPS.
Edited onPatch 2.1.1
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Originally Posted by Graul
0/31/30 looks like an off tank build. If you are going that route, you may as well just go 5/43/13 or something similar to that. You gain Toughness and Defiance at the cost of Impale. A minor DPS loss for a decent tanking gain. Some people can't live without Last Stand, even as an off tank, so you could fiddle with points to get that as well if you really needed it. I was 5/43/13 until we stopped doing Karazhan and there was never any issues with being the second tank.
|
My current has a bit more emphasise on actual damage: 2/44/13
http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=LbZVVzVgxoVuVo0Ezoh
This is an easy swap for Deflection: 4/42/13
http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=LmZVVzVxxoVuVo0Ezoh
(Could drop P.Howl for 1 more point in Deflection if you really want it maxxed.
Basicly the differance in mine and Grauls is that I would assume he generally only tanked Karazhan. I am still Hybrid because I am usually confuddled into tanking Magtheridon adds, Hydross adds, etc. As he says above Toughness is great, in my opinion Shield Specalization is just a superiour talent to spend points on to open up Improved Shield Block. For a meager 2 extra points you can throw in Last Stand and Improved Shield Block which greatly increase your tanking viability.
If your going to be tanking a decent bit, I would suggest going with my above route, if only occasionally (or for say Karazhan) you should be fine with only 13 in Protection.
Last edited by Surion : 06/08/07 at 1:14 PM. Reason: Clarifying from Apate's response
| in my opinion Shield Specalization is just a superiour talent |
|
Originally Posted by Nen
Graul, from the limited information provided, it seems that the damage of a 31/30 is pretty similar to a DW 17/44. I would assume the difference in dps due to T3 1hander vs gorehowl/mooncleaver?
I find on most fights I am capped by threat not damage, how much do you have to hold back as a 17/44? Or do you chain spam HS? |
As full 17/44/0 I will stay neck and neck with him every fight.
However our melee group as of late has been running heavy, we finally got an Enhancement Shaman who isn't worthless, and always have a Feral Druid and we all have very good gear for our content (No bosses in SSC down yet, everything else on farm for months due to guild issues).
If you keep up HS constantly you will become threat capped quick, no real way around it; especially if you are running WF. Just make sure you have Salv and watch KTM.
Something like Gruul there is no way I can go all out keeping my trinket and DeathWish on cooldown spamming HS. Magtheridon assuming I am not tanking, the tank can usually get a good enough leadup. Lately when I am running raids, I have been dropping an extra Prot Warrior in the MT's group for BattleShout or a Resto Shaman for his own Windfury to help threat generation, we have some pretty big aggro-whores aside from just myself!
Edited onPatch 2.1.1
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Originally Posted by Apate
Why? Because of the rage generation?
|
I could live without Last Stand, I couldn't live without Improved Shield Block if I am going to tank any raid content!
Though as a Hybrid tank you most likely arn't rolling in the Prot Gear; so you could argue that the extra 5% block is better than the increase in Armor, I haven't done the math and am not very keen to!
Last edited by Surion : 06/08/07 at 1:12 PM. Reason: Clarification
Edited onPatch 2.1.1
| I find on most fights I am capped by threat not damage, how much do you have to hold back as a 17/44? Or do you chain spam HS? |
| I would assume the difference in dps due to T3 1hander vs gorehowl/mooncleaver? |
| Were you on cube rotations for mag? From the previous screen shot it looks like you were up over 130+ dps from the 2 handed build of the previous week (The numbers are a little cut off, but it looks like it was 8XX dps, and this week's was 1036). Which is an improvement of at least 15% dps, but only an improvement of 5% actual damage...so your raid stepped it up a fair bit as well. |
Last edited by Graul : 06/08/07 at 5:43 PM.
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Originally Posted by Nezralix
Does anyone have experience going with a hybrid Fury/Prot build? With a 0/31/30 build you lose some pretty hefty DPS talents like Precision, Imp Berserker Stance, Rampage, Impale, and Imp Overpower, but you are able to get 1H spec out of it to balance the loss somewhat. Although the extremely static nature of threat generation without Shield Slam and Devastate is extremely distasteful to me, there's no question that you're gaining some substantial tanking advantage over a 20/41/0 build or something of that nature, and presumbably bringing a little more to the raid as a result.
|
As your raid dps grows, the you can see the wall coming with TPS, as progression grows, you can see the wall coming with mitigation...with all that said, it was a lot of fun, and it has a stunning amount of utility.|
Originally Posted by Nezralix
Does anyone have experience going with a hybrid Fury/Prot build? With a 0/31/30 build you lose some pretty hefty DPS talents like Precision, Imp Berserker Stance, Rampage, Impale, and Imp Overpower, but you are able to get 1H spec out of it to balance the loss somewhat. Although the extremely static nature of threat generation without Shield Slam and Devastate is extremely distasteful to me, there's no question that you're gaining some substantial tanking advantage over a 20/41/0 build or something of that nature, and presumbably bringing a little more to the raid as a result.
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As your raid dps grows, the you can see the wall coming with TPS, as progression grows, you can see the wall coming with mitigation...with all that said, it was a lot of fun, and it has a stunning amount of utility.|
Originally Posted by Nezralix
Does anyone have experience going with a hybrid Fury/Prot build? With a 0/31/30 build you lose some pretty hefty DPS talents like Precision, Imp Berserker Stance, Rampage, Impale, and Imp Overpower, but you are able to get 1H spec out of it to balance the loss somewhat. Although the extremely static nature of threat generation without Shield Slam and Devastate is extremely distasteful to me, there's no question that you're gaining some substantial tanking advantage over a 20/41/0 build or something of that nature, and presumbably bringing a little more to the raid as a result.
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As your raid dps grows, the you can see the wall coming with TPS, as progression grows, you can see the wall coming with mitigation...with all that said, it was a lot of fun, and it has a stunning amount of utility.Deja vu x 3.
Deja vu x 3.
Deja vu x ... you get the idea.
Deja vu x 3.
Deja vu x ... you get the idea.
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Originally Posted by Surion
I could live without Last Stand, I couldn't live without Improved Shield Block if I am going to tank any raid content!
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Originally Posted by Amorpheus
Why? I don't remember being crushed by anything that required me in the "extra tank" role. Nothing aside from the bosses themselves is high enough.
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There's other stuff (channelers at mag), tidalvess, etc at various tiers. I think his point is that if you are spending a few points in prot presuming that you'll be tanking something meaningful, the extra block on shield block is worth more to him than the extra ac on toughness, particularly since you'll generally be more susceptible to spiking death than a full prot would be.
Obviously full prot takes both, I think his case is for the 14 or so points in prot builds, he'd rather have imp shield block than toughness, which is arguable. Depends on if you value the extra spike protection more than the reduced overall damage as an off-tank. Personally I like blue.
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Originally Posted by dawgg
Deathwing (of dps warrior spreadsheet fame) proposed this 0/31/30 pre-tbc as a build that could approach 95% dps of full fury/arms because of the 1h spec boost. I ran this way for a few months. My anecdotal observations are that, assuming you are well geared for both roles, you can deliver top quartile dps, and an itemrack change later, tank just about anything pre-ssc. People tend to think you are prot by your mob control; it's pretty funny when they go look at the armory
As your raid dps grows, the you can see the wall coming with TPS, as progression grows, you can see the wall coming with mitigation...with all that said, it was a lot of fun, and it has a stunning amount of utility. |
Not sure of any "protection" build without 5/5 in Parry and even 3/3 in Imp TC these days.
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Originally Posted by Randor
Not sure of any "protection" build without 5/5 in Parry and even 3/3 in Imp TC these days.
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And that being said, still waiting on my guild's enhancement shaman to return from vacation
. No windfury + UR + SoE means no reason to even put up WWS's. Should be back Monday.| And that being said, still waiting on my guild's enhancement shaman to return from vacation . No windfury + UR + SoE means no reason to even put up WWS's. Should be back Monday. |
Anyways, back on topic.
| On a fight like Tidewalker, I have to step out about halfway through the fight for a few Murloc packs if I want to do anything other than just stand there with attack off. On any other fight it's fine as long as BoS is kept up, and I only HS a boss (adds don't really matter nearly as much since they die so fast) if I am really far behind the tank in threat and the fight still has a ways to go. I also only ever HS as a rage dump and never ever as a primary source of damage. |
I don't know if your threat meters are out of whack because you are whirl-winding multiple adds and it's not set to master target, or if you never have BoS, or your MT stinks....i don't get it. I never get anywhere near the MT in threat unless he's getting stunned/knocked back or there is a de-agro component to the fight.
BoS + innate berserk stance threat generation is 56% of normal (if im not mistaken). If your MT can maintain 900 TPS, you should need to maintain something like 2000+ dps in order to pull agro. Even factoring in heavy HS usage and an optimal 1100 average DPS, it shouldn't be possible.
Generally speaking, if the MT has had 10 seconds alone with the mob, i don't ever have to look at the threat meters.
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Originally Posted by Calgar
I don't get it...it's almost mathematically impossible to pull threat off of a good main-tank if you have blessing of salvation.
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He puts an attack speed debuff on your MT that increases the time between his attacks by 400% (Tidal Wave) which makes it hard for him to sustain something like 900 TPS over the whole fight.
It's quite easy to pull aggro under these circumstances, even with BoS.
Fair enough. I'm not familiar with any SSC fights other then the strats i have read online and first hand experience with Lurker.
Our guild has downed Mag once and has 2-3 nights worth of attempts on Lurker.
Our guild has downed Mag once and has 2-3 nights worth of attempts on Lurker.
what sort of dps do you guys think would be possible with the best gear out atm? threat nonwithstanding
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Originally Posted by nubb3y
what sort of dps do you guys think would be possible with the best gear out atm? threat nonwithstanding
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In regards to morogrim, you're tank is probably pretty good if he can keep up 700 TPS w/ a windfury totem. Our main tank blocks for about 600 so his Shield Slam really helps out his threat gen even though Tidal Wave destroys his white damage/heroic striking. It also helps that morogrim hits RIDICULOUSLY hard meaning rage is not the problem at all.
1500 is reasonable in a stacked scenario.
- Full T6 level DPS gear with dual 100 dps weapons (If not the legendary sword off of illidan himself).
-Enhancement shaman; totems/UR
- Hunter; TS Aura, improved mark
- Druid ; Ilotp, FF on the mob
- Ret paladin in group; Sanct aura (2% more damage?), and imp crusader on the mob
- FULL buffs; flask or 2 elixirs, mark, fort, BS, rampage, food buff, world buffs, sharpening stone on off-hand, might, kings, salv
- Fully debuffed mob; sunder, FF, CoR, blood frenzy.
- Completely Immobile boss, able to attack from behind....preferably low armor to start off with.
That's single target of course....when we can get 2+ mobs close together cleave/whirlwind will raise that a bit.
- Full T6 level DPS gear with dual 100 dps weapons (If not the legendary sword off of illidan himself).
-Enhancement shaman; totems/UR
- Hunter; TS Aura, improved mark
- Druid ; Ilotp, FF on the mob
- Ret paladin in group; Sanct aura (2% more damage?), and imp crusader on the mob
- FULL buffs; flask or 2 elixirs, mark, fort, BS, rampage, food buff, world buffs, sharpening stone on off-hand, might, kings, salv
- Fully debuffed mob; sunder, FF, CoR, blood frenzy.
- Completely Immobile boss, able to attack from behind....preferably low armor to start off with.
That's single target of course....when we can get 2+ mobs close together cleave/whirlwind will raise that a bit.
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Originally Posted by Calgar
I don't get it...it's almost mathematically impossible to pull threat off of a good main-tank if you have blessing of salvation.
I don't know if your threat meters are out of whack because you are whirl-winding multiple adds and it's not set to master target, or if you never have BoS, or your MT stinks....i don't get it. I never get anywhere near the MT in threat unless he's getting stunned/knocked back or there is a de-agro component to the fight. BoS + innate berserk stance threat generation is 56% of normal (if im not mistaken). If your MT can maintain 900 TPS, you should need to maintain something like 2000+ dps in order to pull agro. Even factoring in heavy HS usage and an optimal 1100 average DPS, it shouldn't be possible. Generally speaking, if the MT has had 10 seconds alone with the mob, i don't ever have to look at the threat meters. |
I think it's interesting that max DPS in a stacked scenario is only 1500 when back pre-expansion a warrior put out 1550 DPS on patchwerk. Now a few things have changed. The two biggest ones are nerfs to pots/world buffs and rage generation. This warrior had ever pot and world buff there was. And along with the best warrior DPS gear in the game his rage bar was practically full all the time.
| Well I do, and I am constantly catching up. Our MT only seems to be able to do 550 TPS tops on this fight and refuses to grab devastate. |
Your DPS meter from Magtheridon of 1036 DPS for example. Lets go to the extreme of spamming HS the whole time and flurry up the whole time for max possible threat generation.
1036 DPS *0.56 (berserk stance + salvation threat reduction) = ~580 TPS
Heroic strike every 2.025 seconds at +196 threat per use, *.56 = 54.02 TPS
= 634 TPS.
Well, that's why you have an issue with your tank only doing 550 TPS on tidewalker, you are likely above that mark be a fair margin.
Any prot warrior worth ANYTHING should be able to destroy 640 TPS by at LEAST 20% on any standard fight. Combined with the fact that a fair portion of your damage comes late in the fight with a recklessness/deathwish/trinket/execute spam makes it even LESS likely you will pull agro early, barring some manner of 100% proc rate on WF for 20 seconds or something of course.
Is there something obvious I'm overlooking here? Is the threat bonus from berserk stance gone post-expansion? Doesn't stack with BoS like i think it does? KTM WAAAAY off?
On a side note Graul, any chance you used to play a Warlock on the Warsong server a ways back? i knew someone with your name, and i heard he re-rolled warrior elsewhere.
I remember pushing out 950~dps(Over the whole fight) on Patchwerk with only raidbuffs/minor consumables back in the days. To be honest it's the threat holding me back now, I'm not enjoying the role of a DPS warrior when I'm constantly capped by the threat on most encounters.
I'm pretty decked out from SSC/TK apart from weapons, and the position I'm in is _NOT FUN_(Sorry for caps, but I had to do it).
I'm pretty decked out from SSC/TK apart from weapons, and the position I'm in is _NOT FUN_(Sorry for caps, but I had to do it).
| On a side note Graul, any chance you used to play a Warlock on the Warsong server a ways back? i knew someone with your name, and i heard he re-rolled warrior elsewhere. |
Edited onPatch 2.1.1
I haven't been Prot for awhile now, but the last time I clocked my threat I was doing like 900 TPS on the Black Stalker in non-Heroic Underbog in full tanking gear, and that was without Windfury. Granted, that was a fairly low-armor situation on a lower level mob, but I can't imagine that it's so much worse in high rage situations against level 73 targets. I've never tanked a raid boss, but all this talk about Prot warriors not being able to put out 500 TPS makes me want to.
EDIT: Numerically, a warrior with a 1.6 speed 85 DPS weapon, with 1000 attack power, 400 total shield block value, 10% crit, no Windfury, 30% monster mitigation, a 15% chance to not hit (via parry/dodge/miss), and a near optimal threat rotation (i.e. two devastates -> revenge -> Shield Slam) and 2 Heroic Strikes every 6 seconds (not that unreasonable) is 934 TPS. That does not take into account glancing blows, but otherwise it's fairly accurate. That's 1670 DPS worth of threat (assuming a DPS warrior with salvation) under basically unbuffed conditions.
EDIT: Numerically, a warrior with a 1.6 speed 85 DPS weapon, with 1000 attack power, 400 total shield block value, 10% crit, no Windfury, 30% monster mitigation, a 15% chance to not hit (via parry/dodge/miss), and a near optimal threat rotation (i.e. two devastates -> revenge -> Shield Slam) and 2 Heroic Strikes every 6 seconds (not that unreasonable) is 934 TPS. That does not take into account glancing blows, but otherwise it's fairly accurate. That's 1670 DPS worth of threat (assuming a DPS warrior with salvation) under basically unbuffed conditions.
Last edited by Nezralix : 06/11/07 at 6:40 PM.
900 tps is difficult ot sustain on a raid boss especially if you are clapping. I'de say safer number is somewhere just shy of 800 depending on the boss ie: attack speed debuffs armor and the like. This of course scales with gear rather better than it used to so we aren't having quite the problem with threat we were late in pre-bc.
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Originally Posted by Okijin
900 tps is difficult ot sustain on a raid boss especially if you are clapping. I'de say safer number is somewhere just shy of 800 depending on the boss ie: attack speed debuffs armor and the like. This of course scales with gear rather better than it used to so we aren't having quite the problem with threat we were late in pre-bc.
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If you can, it's much better to have an offtank or dps war applying demo/tclap for you as it removes a bit of stress from your MT while keeping his threat cycle untouched.
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Originally Posted by Graul
This isn't WWS, but it's good enough to compare my 2h SWstats shot on page 4. This was tonight's Magtheridon with my current gear and build (DW), same buffs and he died about 30 seconds faster this time around.
 This was our first Karathress kill from last night. We beat the enrage by one second with a couple of deaths/battle rezes:  Rogues were losing a lot of combo points for a while when having to switch to the spitfire totem. |
With some good epics the DPS gets very good (again). I have similar stuff like Graul and end up somewhere between the Rogues mostly too.
@Animosityftw: Group setups? Heroism rotations?
Maybe it's because our maintank is a dodgefreak, but I'm constantly a slave under my TPS, he only does 400-550tps on most fights.
Maybe it's because our maintank is a dodgefreak, but I'm constantly a slave under my TPS, he only does 400-550tps on most fights.
MT on raid encounters with 400-500 TPS??
Man that is tooooooooo low.
Man that is tooooooooo low.
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Originally Posted by ikillyouheal
@Animosityftw: Group setups? Heroism rotations?
Maybe it's because our maintank is a dodgefreak, but I'm constantly a slave under my TPS, he only does 400-550tps on most fights. |
The Mag kill I had a feral druid and a shaman who used Heroism on the adds so we could burn then down faster. Yarrik, without threat you think you can pull 1k DPS? If so, I'm surely missing something seeing as our stats are close.Edited onPatch 2.1.1
I know that I can put out _VERY_ good DPS when I'm not threatcapped, sadly, most of the time I am. Have not really got to test it, neither have I found a good benchmarking fight for it.
::Edit:: Closest I can come is Karathress, Since I'm only threatcapped on the first two of the 'adds', pulled off a 1350 dps on it. Got like 1500~dps on Solarian, but she has very low armor.
::Edit:: Closest I can come is Karathress, Since I'm only threatcapped on the first two of the 'adds', pulled off a 1350 dps on it. Got like 1500~dps on Solarian, but she has very low armor.
Last edited by ikillyouheal : 06/12/07 at 3:58 PM.
I went and did some threat tests on Morgroron, a melee-oriented elite demon in Legion Hold. I was able to put out 675 threat per second over the duration of the fight, and he hit me for about 375 per swing in tanking gear. So yeah, a Protection warrior putting out 500 threat per second on a raid boss seems to be totally ridiculous.
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Originally Posted by Nezralix
I went and did some threat tests on Morgroron, a melee-oriented elite demon in Legion Hold. I was able to put out 675 threat per second over the duration of the fight, and he hit me for about 375 per swing in tanking gear. So yeah, a Protection warrior putting out 500 threat per second on a raid boss seems to be totally ridiculous.
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Erm, 800 TPS is 'reasonable' for a MT... 500 TPS is going to cause EVERY dpser significant threat issues, not just your DPS warriors. How on earth do you manage with that?
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Originally Posted by Rand
You have to consider how much more a MT's attacks get dodged / parried (not to mention higher miss chance) because they're attacking mobs 4-5 levels higher than "Morgroron". Yes, 500 TPS is still unacceptable in my eyes, but to improve on that they need to mix in some +hit and maybe some block value. If they're starved for rage and not in danger of dying, they should switch in some more threat-oriented gear.
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The 500 TPS was in reference to the Tidewalker fight and the fact that tidal wave increases your swing time by 400%. So far less threat from white damage and heroic strike.
Any tank in Gruul+ scenario will be 800 or more TPS.
BTW, this is more then slightly off-topic.
Back on topic....I'm finding problems as a warrior where i actually get the opportunity to actually DPS now. KZ have to off-tank half the bosses and a large portion of the trash, have to tank one of the council for maulgar (priest, so i wear DPS gear), Gruul i can DPS but i have AWEFUL luck on him and constantly die (2 deaths last night on him at 66 and 88%, killed him on second try). For mag, i have to tank the 4th channeler, so i wear mostly tanking gear...tank trash in SSC. Will probably have to off-tank hydross adds.....WTB another prot warrior.
Any tank in Gruul+ scenario will be 800 or more TPS.
BTW, this is more then slightly off-topic.
Back on topic....I'm finding problems as a warrior where i actually get the opportunity to actually DPS now. KZ have to off-tank half the bosses and a large portion of the trash, have to tank one of the council for maulgar (priest, so i wear DPS gear), Gruul i can DPS but i have AWEFUL luck on him and constantly die (2 deaths last night on him at 66 and 88%, killed him on second try). For mag, i have to tank the 4th channeler, so i wear mostly tanking gear...tank trash in SSC. Will probably have to off-tank hydross adds.....WTB another prot warrior.
http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/th...sid=1&pageNo=1
Has some interesting points, believe it or now. I especially like the comments from Schmity (sp?) of D&T.
Has some interesting points, believe it or now. I especially like the comments from Schmity (sp?) of D&T.
As a shaman I could not go to a raid with a MT that can only generate 550tps.
As an officer I would gkick him for being shit.
I'm not sure how far you guys have progressed, but anything with an enrage timer must be near impossible with that sort of tps.
As an officer I would gkick him for being shit.
I'm not sure how far you guys have progressed, but anything with an enrage timer must be near impossible with that sort of tps.
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Originally Posted by Stigmata
As a shaman I could not go to a raid with a MT that can only generate 550tps.
As an officer I would gkick him for being shit. I'm not sure how far you guys have progressed, but anything with an enrage timer must be near impossible with that sort of tps. |
::Edit:: Link to armory. http://armory.wow-europe.com/#charac...enjuros&n=Undu
Notice that that is 30% dodge, 17% parry and 7% extra chance not to get hit. I think we've wiped quite a few times because he went out of rage and wasnt able to keep shield block up.
::Edit2:: Note that he's not even wearing his Moroes trinket with dodge on.
Edited onPatch 2.1.1
Too much dodge, too much shield block rating, not enough health. 450-550 TPS is totally unacceptable for where your raid progress is.
Last edited by Phoenix : 06/13/07 at 1:04 PM.
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Originally Posted by Phoenix
Too much dodge, too much shield block rating, not enough health. 450-550 TPS is totally unacceptable for where your raid progress is.
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Originally Posted by Trezan
First off, I agree with you, particularly if the tank is having threat issues. However, if he were to get about 8 percent more block, dodge, parry, and miss combined, he would be uncrushable without shield block, which could give him more threat on the basis of having one extra GCD to spare. So perhaps it would be good, but its still hard to argue that the amount of stamina he's losing isn't a significant downside.
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Shield Block does not trigger a GCD.
I'm a firm believer of the 1 roll system in regards to crushings, blocks, dodge, etc. Its how pally tanks are able to be uncrushable. If this were not the case they would not be.
Yeah I definitely messed that up with the GCD. However not having to focus on the shield block every 5 seconds certainly would be nice. (Pally tanks have to deal with Holy Shield being on the GCD as well as it being 10 seconds in length with a 10 second CD... it makes for a real annoyance if there is lag.)
I'm still trying to adjust to the changes in tanking style (I had a feral druid pre xpac, changed to a prot pally when I rerolled, but finally decided I'd just go ahead and be a prot warrior as it was inevitable. Even so I rarely have less that at least 650 TPS when tanking any boss, and I'm still not amazingly geared yet, so definitely need your tank to step up, in my opinion.
Yeah I definitely messed that up with the GCD. However not having to focus on the shield block every 5 seconds certainly would be nice. (Pally tanks have to deal with Holy Shield being on the GCD as well as it being 10 seconds in length with a 10 second CD... it makes for a real annoyance if there is lag.)
I'm still trying to adjust to the changes in tanking style (I had a feral druid pre xpac, changed to a prot pally when I rerolled, but finally decided I'd just go ahead and be a prot warrior as it was inevitable.
Even so I rarely have less that at least 650 TPS when tanking any boss, and I'm still not amazingly geared yet, so definitely need your tank to step up, in my opinion.I was a believer of that aswell, before I tanked some mobs with fury spec, having 91% block with Shield Block on, 10% parry and 15% dodge, and I got crushed.
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Originally Posted by ikillyouheal
I was a believer of that aswell, before I tanked some mobs with fury spec, having 91% block with Shield Block on, 10% parry and 15% dodge, and I got crushed.
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I guess what you say might be true, I'm not 100% sure about all tanking mechanics, since I've been a DPS-warrior since I rerolled warrior 'bout a year ago.
| On a side note Graul, any chance you used to play a Warlock on the Warsong server a ways back? i knew someone with your name, and i heard he re-rolled warrior elsewhere. |
Edited onPatch 2.1.1
I haven't been Prot for awhile now, but the last time I clocked my threat I was doing like 900 TPS on the Black Stalker in non-Heroic Underbog in full tanking gear, and that was without Windfury. Granted, that was a fairly low-armor situation on a lower level mob, but I can't imagine that it's so much worse in high rage situations against level 73 targets. I've never tanked a raid boss, but all this talk about Prot warriors not being able to put out 500 TPS makes me want to.
EDIT: Numerically, a warrior with a 1.6 speed 85 DPS weapon, with 1000 attack power, 400 total shield block value, 10% crit, no Windfury, 30% monster mitigation, a 15% chance to not hit (via parry/dodge/miss), and a near optimal threat rotation (i.e. two devastates -> revenge -> Shield Slam) and 2 Heroic Strikes every 6 seconds (not that unreasonable) is 934 TPS. That does not take into account glancing blows, but otherwise it's fairly accurate. That's 1670 DPS worth of threat (assuming a DPS warrior with salvation) under basically unbuffed conditions.
EDIT: Numerically, a warrior with a 1.6 speed 85 DPS weapon, with 1000 attack power, 400 total shield block value, 10% crit, no Windfury, 30% monster mitigation, a 15% chance to not hit (via parry/dodge/miss), and a near optimal threat rotation (i.e. two devastates -> revenge -> Shield Slam) and 2 Heroic Strikes every 6 seconds (not that unreasonable) is 934 TPS. That does not take into account glancing blows, but otherwise it's fairly accurate. That's 1670 DPS worth of threat (assuming a DPS warrior with salvation) under basically unbuffed conditions.
Last edited by Nezralix : 06/11/07 at 6:40 PM.
900 tps is difficult ot sustain on a raid boss especially if you are clapping. I'de say safer number is somewhere just shy of 800 depending on the boss ie: attack speed debuffs armor and the like. This of course scales with gear rather better than it used to so we aren't having quite the problem with threat we were late in pre-bc.
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Originally Posted by Okijin
900 tps is difficult ot sustain on a raid boss especially if you are clapping. I'de say safer number is somewhere just shy of 800 depending on the boss ie: attack speed debuffs armor and the like. This of course scales with gear rather better than it used to so we aren't having quite the problem with threat we were late in pre-bc.
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If you can, it's much better to have an offtank or dps war applying demo/tclap for you as it removes a bit of stress from your MT while keeping his threat cycle untouched.
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Originally Posted by Graul
This isn't WWS, but it's good enough to compare my 2h SWstats shot on page 4. This was tonight's Magtheridon with my current gear and build (DW), same buffs and he died about 30 seconds faster this time around.
This was our first Karathress kill from last night. We beat the enrage by one second with a couple of deaths/battle rezes: Rogues were losing a lot of combo points for a while when having to switch to the spitfire totem. |
With some good epics the DPS gets very good (again). I have similar stuff like Graul and end up somewhere between the Rogues mostly too.
@Animosityftw: Group setups? Heroism rotations?
Maybe it's because our maintank is a dodgefreak, but I'm constantly a slave under my TPS, he only does 400-550tps on most fights.
Maybe it's because our maintank is a dodgefreak, but I'm constantly a slave under my TPS, he only does 400-550tps on most fights.
MT on raid encounters with 400-500 TPS??
Man that is tooooooooo low.
Man that is tooooooooo low.
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Originally Posted by ikillyouheal
@Animosityftw: Group setups? Heroism rotations?
Maybe it's because our maintank is a dodgefreak, but I'm constantly a slave under my TPS, he only does 400-550tps on most fights. |
The Mag kill I had a feral druid and a shaman who used Heroism on the adds so we could burn then down faster. Yarrik, without threat you think you can pull 1k DPS? If so, I'm surely missing something seeing as our stats are close.Edited onPatch 2.1.1
I know that I can put out _VERY_ good DPS when I'm not threatcapped, sadly, most of the time I am. Have not really got to test it, neither have I found a good benchmarking fight for it.
::Edit:: Closest I can come is Karathress, Since I'm only threatcapped on the first two of the 'adds', pulled off a 1350 dps on it. Got like 1500~dps on Solarian, but she has very low armor.
::Edit:: Closest I can come is Karathress, Since I'm only threatcapped on the first two of the 'adds', pulled off a 1350 dps on it. Got like 1500~dps on Solarian, but she has very low armor.
Last edited by ikillyouheal : 06/12/07 at 3:58 PM.
I went and did some threat tests on Morgroron, a melee-oriented elite demon in Legion Hold. I was able to put out 675 threat per second over the duration of the fight, and he hit me for about 375 per swing in tanking gear. So yeah, a Protection warrior putting out 500 threat per second on a raid boss seems to be totally ridiculous.
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Originally Posted by Nezralix
I went and did some threat tests on Morgroron, a melee-oriented elite demon in Legion Hold. I was able to put out 675 threat per second over the duration of the fight, and he hit me for about 375 per swing in tanking gear. So yeah, a Protection warrior putting out 500 threat per second on a raid boss seems to be totally ridiculous.
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Erm, 800 TPS is 'reasonable' for a MT... 500 TPS is going to cause EVERY dpser significant threat issues, not just your DPS warriors. How on earth do you manage with that?
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Originally Posted by Rand
You have to consider how much more a MT's attacks get dodged / parried (not to mention higher miss chance) because they're attacking mobs 4-5 levels higher than "Morgroron". Yes, 500 TPS is still unacceptable in my eyes, but to improve on that they need to mix in some +hit and maybe some block value. If they're starved for rage and not in danger of dying, they should switch in some more threat-oriented gear.
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The 500 TPS was in reference to the Tidewalker fight and the fact that tidal wave increases your swing time by 400%. So far less threat from white damage and heroic strike.
Any tank in Gruul+ scenario will be 800 or more TPS.
BTW, this is more then slightly off-topic.
Back on topic....I'm finding problems as a warrior where i actually get the opportunity to actually DPS now. KZ have to off-tank half the bosses and a large portion of the trash, have to tank one of the council for maulgar (priest, so i wear DPS gear), Gruul i can DPS but i have AWEFUL luck on him and constantly die (2 deaths last night on him at 66 and 88%, killed him on second try). For mag, i have to tank the 4th channeler, so i wear mostly tanking gear...tank trash in SSC. Will probably have to off-tank hydross adds.....WTB another prot warrior.
Any tank in Gruul+ scenario will be 800 or more TPS.
BTW, this is more then slightly off-topic.
Back on topic....I'm finding problems as a warrior where i actually get the opportunity to actually DPS now. KZ have to off-tank half the bosses and a large portion of the trash, have to tank one of the council for maulgar (priest, so i wear DPS gear), Gruul i can DPS but i have AWEFUL luck on him and constantly die (2 deaths last night on him at 66 and 88%, killed him on second try). For mag, i have to tank the 4th channeler, so i wear mostly tanking gear...tank trash in SSC. Will probably have to off-tank hydross adds.....WTB another prot warrior.
http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/th...sid=1&pageNo=1
Has some interesting points, believe it or now. I especially like the comments from Schmity (sp?) of D&T.
Has some interesting points, believe it or now. I especially like the comments from Schmity (sp?) of D&T.
As a shaman I could not go to a raid with a MT that can only generate 550tps.
As an officer I would gkick him for being shit.
I'm not sure how far you guys have progressed, but anything with an enrage timer must be near impossible with that sort of tps.
As an officer I would gkick him for being shit.
I'm not sure how far you guys have progressed, but anything with an enrage timer must be near impossible with that sort of tps.
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Originally Posted by Stigmata
As a shaman I could not go to a raid with a MT that can only generate 550tps.
As an officer I would gkick him for being shit. I'm not sure how far you guys have progressed, but anything with an enrage timer must be near impossible with that sort of tps. |
::Edit:: Link to armory. http://armory.wow-europe.com/#charac...enjuros&n=Undu
Notice that that is 30% dodge, 17% parry and 7% extra chance not to get hit. I think we've wiped quite a few times because he went out of rage and wasnt able to keep shield block up.
::Edit2:: Note that he's not even wearing his Moroes trinket with dodge on.
Edited onPatch 2.1.1
Too much dodge, too much shield block rating, not enough health. 450-550 TPS is totally unacceptable for where your raid progress is.
Last edited by Phoenix : 06/13/07 at 1:04 PM.
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Originally Posted by Phoenix
Too much dodge, too much shield block rating, not enough health. 450-550 TPS is totally unacceptable for where your raid progress is.
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Originally Posted by Trezan
First off, I agree with you, particularly if the tank is having threat issues. However, if he were to get about 8 percent more block, dodge, parry, and miss combined, he would be uncrushable without shield block, which could give him more threat on the basis of having one extra GCD to spare. So perhaps it would be good, but its still hard to argue that the amount of stamina he's losing isn't a significant downside.
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Shield Block does not trigger a GCD.
I'm a firm believer of the 1 roll system in regards to crushings, blocks, dodge, etc. Its how pally tanks are able to be uncrushable. If this were not the case they would not be.
Yeah I definitely messed that up with the GCD. However not having to focus on the shield block every 5 seconds certainly would be nice. (Pally tanks have to deal with Holy Shield being on the GCD as well as it being 10 seconds in length with a 10 second CD... it makes for a real annoyance if there is lag.)
I'm still trying to adjust to the changes in tanking style (I had a feral druid pre xpac, changed to a prot pally when I rerolled, but finally decided I'd just go ahead and be a prot warrior as it was inevitable. Even so I rarely have less that at least 650 TPS when tanking any boss, and I'm still not amazingly geared yet, so definitely need your tank to step up, in my opinion.
Yeah I definitely messed that up with the GCD. However not having to focus on the shield block every 5 seconds certainly would be nice. (Pally tanks have to deal with Holy Shield being on the GCD as well as it being 10 seconds in length with a 10 second CD... it makes for a real annoyance if there is lag.)
I'm still trying to adjust to the changes in tanking style (I had a feral druid pre xpac, changed to a prot pally when I rerolled, but finally decided I'd just go ahead and be a prot warrior as it was inevitable.
Even so I rarely have less that at least 650 TPS when tanking any boss, and I'm still not amazingly geared yet, so definitely need your tank to step up, in my opinion.I was a believer of that aswell, before I tanked some mobs with fury spec, having 91% block with Shield Block on, 10% parry and 15% dodge, and I got crushed.
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Originally Posted by ikillyouheal
I was a believer of that aswell, before I tanked some mobs with fury spec, having 91% block with Shield Block on, 10% parry and 15% dodge, and I got crushed.
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I guess what you say might be true, I'm not 100% sure about all tanking mechanics, since I've been a DPS-warrior since I rerolled warrior 'bout a year ago.
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Originally Posted by ikillyouheal
@Animosityftw: Group setups? Heroism rotations?
Maybe it's because our maintank is a dodgefreak, but I'm constantly a slave under my TPS, he only does 400-550tps on most fights. |
I've told him, but he's my classmaster AND guildmaster. 
Edited onPatch 2.1.1
| Has some interesting points, believe it or now. I especially like the comments from Schmity (sp?) of D&T. |
| Before you go toting around the word scrub, I would suggest you take a second look at my guild's progression, progression I have been a part of as an MS warrior. Being MS was not a choice I made because I didn't want to spec out of my PvP spec, it was a suggestion made by a guildmate the realizes 4% damage for physical damage classes far outweighs my damage increase from being fury. Not only does the talent increase the damage from rogues, hunters, and feral druids, but it also increases tank threat, maybe not exactly by 4%, but definatly something close. This increase in threat allows all the dps in the raid to push a little harder. |
Last edited by Graul : 06/13/07 at 3:11 PM.
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Originally Posted by Graul
Seeing as though it's DnT, they no doubt have some very high DPS players, but it would take an extreme amount of physical DPS before BF made up the difference between Arms (ie 2h build without Flurry) and DW Fury. And that's if Rend or Deep Wounds was up 100% of the time.
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Has anyone taken parsed WWS data, removed 4% of the physical damage done and added it on to the damage of an Arms warrior for comparison? I'm betting it's more than you give it credit for.
Well, if you've got 8 physical DPS classes, and you assume they do on average 30% more damage than you, then you're basically getting an increase of 0.04*1.3*8 = 41.6% effective increase in "your" DPS. So unless you can do 42% more damage as a Fury warrior, then you're a net benefit with Arms.
Now, if they do less than that amount of damage compared to you, then you get less overall benefit (relatively speaking), but of course, the marginal benefit from going Fury is being reduced also, so it should basically even out.
And it pretty much crosses the line into asshole-ishness if a raid leader chooses to exclude somebody over something like a 5% cumulative difference in your individual damage.
Now, if they do less than that amount of damage compared to you, then you get less overall benefit (relatively speaking), but of course, the marginal benefit from going Fury is being reduced also, so it should basically even out.
And it pretty much crosses the line into asshole-ishness if a raid leader chooses to exclude somebody over something like a 5% cumulative difference in your individual damage.
| but it would take an extreme amount of physical DPS before BF made up the difference between Arms (ie 2h build without Flurry) and DW Fury. And that's if Rend or Deep Wounds was up 100% of the time. |
How much of a difference in DPS is there between say, 33/28, and 17/44? Assuming optimal specs/gear and positioning on a single-target fight? I personally don't think there would be more then a 20% difference in their damage.
Big loses;
Flurry, 10% attack speed
MS vs BT; After a certain amount of AP, BT is better. This value should be attainable in a raid buffed situation...unless you have a T3 blacksmithing weapons or other 125+ dps 2 hander.
10% AP off from the imp berserk stance talent.
So blood frenzy would have to make up 20% of a fury warrior's damage (give or take) to be better for the raid over all. So if you run with 5+ melee of the fury warrior's caliber, or better, or if you run with more then that, then bloody frenzy would likely come out better off.
For example, we ran 3 hunters, 3 rogues, 2 feral druids and 3 warriors on magthridon last night. Now, the warriors (myself included) did crap dps, with none in the top 10. 1 feral tanked magtheridon, and the other was on cubes and has bad DPS gear. But all told that's 11 people getting benefit from the buff. That HAS to make up the difference between lack-luster arms and good fury right there.
I'd imagine it's also EXCELLENT for a feral druid's agro compared to a prot warrior. A larger portion of their threat comes from white damage.
Anyone else have any thoughts?
I can't open WWS parses and look at actual combat logs to calculate because they tell me that's a "poor use" of my time at work. I like where this theorycrafting is going but can anyone show a couple examples of fights with actual numbers and recalculate so we have some hard data? If no one else can I'll probably do it when I get home tonight but it will probably be a while.
I'll use graul's damage meters and raid composition, just because they are here.
Magtheridon
Graul; 644k damage, second on the meters. 7 that benefit from BF (8 if that shaman is enhancement...also assuming the druids are feral and not boomkin. Also, this doesn't include any people cut off the bottom of the meter, like a MT warrior if there was one)
3,183,000 physical damage done.
4% of that value is; 127,320 damage
127,320 is 19.77% of Graul's damage, which he maintained at 1036 DPS.
Theoretical break even point is 831 or great DPS with the 33/28 spec.
---------
Now, for the other fight. Karathress;
Graul did 574k damage @ 968 dps, second on the meters. 7 that benefit from BF (8, again, assuming the shaman is enhancement)
2,292,000 physical damage done.
4% is 91,680 damage
91,680 is ~16% of Graul's damage
Theoretical break even point here is 813 DPS with the BF build.
Interesting anyways.
Magtheridon
Graul; 644k damage, second on the meters. 7 that benefit from BF (8 if that shaman is enhancement...also assuming the druids are feral and not boomkin. Also, this doesn't include any people cut off the bottom of the meter, like a MT warrior if there was one)
3,183,000 physical damage done.
4% of that value is; 127,320 damage
127,320 is 19.77% of Graul's damage, which he maintained at 1036 DPS.
Theoretical break even point is 831 or great DPS with the 33/28 spec.
---------
Now, for the other fight. Karathress;
Graul did 574k damage @ 968 dps, second on the meters. 7 that benefit from BF (8, again, assuming the shaman is enhancement)
2,292,000 physical damage done.
4% is 91,680 damage
91,680 is ~16% of Graul's damage
Theoretical break even point here is 813 DPS with the BF build.
Interesting anyways.
Not to highjack this thread, but I've stumbled across a 2hfury dps warrior with a rather interesting setup.
http://armory.worldofwarcraft.com/#c...rgath&n=George
Mind you he does have everything popped before logging out, but I'm sure this is evidence that the theorycrafted 2h-fury dps build is indeed viable.
My question would be, in terms of Blacksmithing, which weapon would be better suited for PvE dps, Sword (Lionheart Series), Axe (Lunar/Moon/Bloodmoon)?
http://armory.worldofwarcraft.com/#c...rgath&n=George
Mind you he does have everything popped before logging out, but I'm sure this is evidence that the theorycrafted 2h-fury dps build is indeed viable.
My question would be, in terms of Blacksmithing, which weapon would be better suited for PvE dps, Sword (Lionheart Series), Axe (Lunar/Moon/Bloodmoon)?
Edited onPatch 2.1.1
EJ's Vashj kill on sunday, heres the physical dps from the WWS thread
Tehax is MS spec, and has 35 in arms. Total physical dps done was 3,830,210
Would he have done 153,208 more damage as Fury?
3 Skru war 457,697 913 4 Cryingrogue rog 441,291 1026 5 Kurapica hnt 434,955 823 6 Backsa rog 409,218 965 7 Snowcrasher hnt 374,053 748 9 Tehax war 371,731 795 12 Gonktarget hnt 328,843 708 13 Shabadu sha 318,194 711 15 Wodin rog 310,087 731 17 Umph drd 275,859 599 18 Paches war 108,282 246
Would he have done 153,208 more damage as Fury?
Last edited by Asmik : 06/13/07 at 4:32 PM. Reason: Formatting code... I fail.
Edited onPatch 2.1.1
| Mind you he does have everything popped before logging out, but I'm sure this is evidence that the theorycrafted 2h-fury dps build is indeed viable. |
It's impressive...but doesn't prove anything.
| Would he have done 153,208 more damage as Fury? |
Edit; Lets think about this for a minute. He'd need to improve his DPS by almost 41%
Assume a 2hander fury build as the "DPS" equivalent, as i dont know what his DW gear is like.
1. Your number assumes 100% BF uptime on what the physical DPS is targetting...isn't phase 2 split DPS? So some uptime is lost there.
2. Flurry = close to 25% more white damage, which is 50% of his overall damage (give or take). ~12.5% more damage.
3. Imp berserk stance = 10% more AP
4. Rampage = 275 more AP
5. Imp slam = big DPS increase.
6. Imp execute would be an increase in DPS too.
7. He'd lose an additional 5% crit and 5% overall damage as well.
It would be close i think, with arms likely being favored.
Last edited by Calgar : 06/13/07 at 4:57 PM. Reason: ZOMG spelling and math corrections
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Originally Posted by Calgar
Assume a 2hander fury build as the "DPS" equivalent, as i dont know what his DW gear is like. 1. Your number assumes 100% BF uptime on what the physical DPS is targetting...isn't phase 2 split DPS? So some uptime is lost there. 2. Flurry = close to 25% more white damage, which is 50% of his overall damage (give or take). ~12.5% more damage. 3. Imp berserk stance = 10% more AP 4. Rampage = 275 more AP 5. Imp slam = big DPS increase. 6. Imp execute would be an increase in DPS too. 7. He'd lose an additional 5% crit and 5% overall damage as well. It would be close i think, with arms likely being favored. |
I believe the two hand miss rate is around 8.6% vs a 73 mob, with 3/3 in the precision talent you would only need 5.6% to reduce miss rates greatly, allowing yourself to concentrate more on critical and attack power gear.
Just wanted to rehijack my thread here in regard to someone talking about threat capping your dps. I'm willing to bet 8/10 "dw fury" warriors dps using Cleave since it's "more threat efficient" than Heroic Strike. Got some news for y'all:
Cleave = +70 damage (untalented) and +130 threat
Heroic Strike = +176 damage and +196 threat
Assuming a boss's armor reduction at 20% we get:
Cleave = 56 + 130 = 186 threat, * 0.8 (zerker/battle stance) = 148.8 threat
Heroic Strike = 140.8 + 196 = 336.8 threat * 0.8 = 269.44 threat
Take a look at the damage to threat ratio here...
Cleave = 56 / 148.8 = 0.376
Heroic Strike = 140.8 / 269.44 = 0.523
Holy... so the majority of fury warriors running around out there spamming Cleave instead of Heroic Strike since it's "safer" are actually further threat capping themselves.
Even fully talented:
Cleave = ( 154 * 0.8 + 130 ) * 0.8 = 202.56
123 / 202.56 = 0.608 damage per threat.
So for three talent points (read: 3) you get a whopping 1 more damage for 13 threat going from Heroic Strike to Cleave. Total waste imo.
Cleave = +70 damage (untalented) and +130 threat
Heroic Strike = +176 damage and +196 threat
Assuming a boss's armor reduction at 20% we get:
Cleave = 56 + 130 = 186 threat, * 0.8 (zerker/battle stance) = 148.8 threat
Heroic Strike = 140.8 + 196 = 336.8 threat * 0.8 = 269.44 threat
Take a look at the damage to threat ratio here...
Cleave = 56 / 148.8 = 0.376
Heroic Strike = 140.8 / 269.44 = 0.523
Holy... so the majority of fury warriors running around out there spamming Cleave instead of Heroic Strike since it's "safer" are actually further threat capping themselves.
Even fully talented:
Cleave = ( 154 * 0.8 + 130 ) * 0.8 = 202.56
123 / 202.56 = 0.608 damage per threat.
So for three talent points (read: 3) you get a whopping 1 more damage for 13 threat going from Heroic Strike to Cleave. Total waste imo.
Edited onPatch 2.1.1
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Originally Posted by Asmik
EJ's Vashj kill on sunday, heres the physical dps from the WWS thread
3 Skru war 457,697 913 4 Cryingrogue rog 441,291 1026 5 Kurapica hnt 434,955 823 6 Backsa rog 409,218 965 7 Snowcrasher hnt 374,053 748 9 Tehax war 371,731 795 12 Gonktarget hnt 328,843 708 13 Shabadu sha 318,194 711 15 Wodin rog 310,087 731 17 Umph drd 275,859 599 18 Paches war 108,282 246 Would he have done 153,208 more damage as Fury? |
If you're unlucky this can easily lose you 100k dmg or so total, and the rest may or may not be gear/skill/spec-differences.
And to add something to discuss - armor penetration? I picked the neck from BT trash up and replaced my heroic badge one. I'm pretty sure I made the right choice of taking this over supremus neck too, but how does armor penetration compare to haste with dualwield?
Last edited by svagftw : 06/13/07 at 7:44 PM.
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Originally Posted by Asmik
EJ's Vashj kill on sunday, heres the physical dps from the WWS thread
Tehax is MS spec, and has 35 in arms. Total physical dps done was 3,830,210 Would he have done 153,208 more damage as Fury? |
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Originally Posted by Voxx
Holy... so the majority of fury warriors running around out there spamming Cleave instead of Heroic Strike since it's "safer" are actually further threat capping themselves. |
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Originally Posted by LodeRunner
All I know is that I live through Void Reaver if I cleave, and that's pretty much the most aggro sensitive fight I deal with these days. Void Reaver is an espcially dangerous warrior fight because there is a limitless supply of rage gleaned from well-timed Berserker Rage usage.
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Of course you'll do more damage with HS spam; it does more for less! We've been switching over to the Omen threat meter as of late and I don't know if that handles Void Reaver's thread reduction properly yet so I'm just basically playing it safe on that fight. When I know those meters are accurate I'll try to tune what I do to be at an appropriate threat level for the encounter.
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Originally Posted by LodeRunner
Of course you'll do more damage with HS spam; it does more for less! We've been switching over to the Omen threat meter as of late and I don't know if that handles Void Reaver's thread reduction properly yet so I'm just basically playing it safe on that fight. When I know those meters are accurate I'll try to tune what I do to be at an appropriate threat level for the encounter.
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I think it's a psychological thing too. I can't look at a full rage bar. Must spend.
I'm honestly not sure how anyone can truly "Heroic Strike Spam" and put out consistently high DPS unless they are using a pretty fast main hand. I am using a 2.7 speed main hander, and the only time I ever use HS is in conjunction with spamstring when both BT and WW are on cooldown, Rampage has a while to go and I have excessive rage. I have yet to be in a situation where my rage bar is full enough to simply hit HS every attack or every other attack. Sometimes near the end of a fight when I switch out my main hand for executes and the mob is not quite at 20% yet I can liberally HS, but usually not during the course of a fight. I also will continue to prioritize hamstring over HS if it is ever an issue of rage. I do not believe that the threat of hamstring is as high as someone stated, but I could be completely wrong. It's just that adding in hamstrings ups the proc rate of Flurry, Windfury, Rampage and Trinkets. HS does not.
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Originally Posted by Phoenix
Too much dodge, too much shield block rating, not enough health. 450-550 TPS is totally unacceptable for where your raid progress is.
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I can use heroic strike mostly on every swing, 2.7 mh 2.6 oh. I raid alot without windfury since we bring 5 melee and group setup is shammy druid rogue rogue warr to get the most out of the group buffs, me and the other warrior take turns in being in the 'dps' group. But even with windfury I think heroic strike is much much better than spamstringing.
Edited onPatch 2.1.1
Where exactly are you getting this rage to Heroic on "most" swings, especially without Windfury? I have tried both using Heroic exclusively without hamstring and vise versa and using nothiung but Heroic cripples my DPS.
Last edited by Graul : 06/14/07 at 8:40 AM.
Edited onPatch 2.1.1
I'm curious as to what specs 2H raiding warriors are using to produce these kinds of results?
I've been testing out 31/30 (MS/flurry/impslam) and It seems like I'm mostly rage-starved the majority of the time, even when I'm in a group with a feral druid & resto shaman. We also usually have a survival hunter and another warrior with Blood Frenzy. Even then, the kind of damage I'm putting out isn't nearly what I've come to expect from a warrior. To get an ideal of my dilemna: I'm usually dead last on damage meters for the majority of boss fights I get to DPS on.
My rotation is WW/MS whenever they're up, and slam for rage dumps after white attacks. Like I said though, I'm usually rage-starved, so spamming slam is out of the question.
My gear is pretty good, ~1700 AP, bloodmoon, max hit, 39.5% crit before raid/party/self buffs.
Our raid DPS isn't horrible by any means (we killed Leo last night with 4 minutes to spare), so I've began to think maybe I've hit my limit as far as damage is concerned. Any ideas to what my failure point might be? I'd post some damage meters, but I've been so embarassed by them that I don't even bother to screenshot them.
I've been testing out 31/30 (MS/flurry/impslam) and It seems like I'm mostly rage-starved the majority of the time, even when I'm in a group with a feral druid & resto shaman. We also usually have a survival hunter and another warrior with Blood Frenzy. Even then, the kind of damage I'm putting out isn't nearly what I've come to expect from a warrior. To get an ideal of my dilemna: I'm usually dead last on damage meters for the majority of boss fights I get to DPS on.
My rotation is WW/MS whenever they're up, and slam for rage dumps after white attacks. Like I said though, I'm usually rage-starved, so spamming slam is out of the question.
My gear is pretty good, ~1700 AP, bloodmoon, max hit, 39.5% crit before raid/party/self buffs.
Our raid DPS isn't horrible by any means (we killed Leo last night with 4 minutes to spare), so I've began to think maybe I've hit my limit as far as damage is concerned. Any ideas to what my failure point might be? I'd post some damage meters, but I've been so embarassed by them that I don't even bother to screenshot them.
Last edited by Gokey : 06/14/07 at 9:59 AM.
Edited onPatch 2.1.1
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Originally Posted by LodeRunner
Heh. That actually may not be the best guide to use there since Tehax is often switching specs so you can never really be sure what he was at that time. If you're gonna parse our stuff I suggest looking for fights involving Chocula.
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Last edited by Asmik : 06/14/07 at 10:37 AM. Reason: grammar
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Originally Posted by ikillyouheal
@Animosityftw: Group setups? Heroism rotations?
Maybe it's because our maintank is a dodgefreak, but I'm constantly a slave under my TPS, he only does 400-550tps on most fights. |
I've told him, but he's my classmaster AND guildmaster.
Edited onPatch 2.1.1
| Has some interesting points, believe it or now. I especially like the comments from Schmity (sp?) of D&T. |
| Before you go toting around the word scrub, I would suggest you take a second look at my guild's progression, progression I have been a part of as an MS warrior. Being MS was not a choice I made because I didn't want to spec out of my PvP spec, it was a suggestion made by a guildmate the realizes 4% damage for physical damage classes far outweighs my damage increase from being fury. Not only does the talent increase the damage from rogues, hunters, and feral druids, but it also increases tank threat, maybe not exactly by 4%, but definatly something close. This increase in threat allows all the dps in the raid to push a little harder. |
Last edited by Graul : 06/13/07 at 3:11 PM.
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Originally Posted by Graul
Seeing as though it's DnT, they no doubt have some very high DPS players, but it would take an extreme amount of physical DPS before BF made up the difference between Arms (ie 2h build without Flurry) and DW Fury. And that's if Rend or Deep Wounds was up 100% of the time.
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Has anyone taken parsed WWS data, removed 4% of the physical damage done and added it on to the damage of an Arms warrior for comparison? I'm betting it's more than you give it credit for.
Well, if you've got 8 physical DPS classes, and you assume they do on average 30% more damage than you, then you're basically getting an increase of 0.04*1.3*8 = 41.6% effective increase in "your" DPS. So unless you can do 42% more damage as a Fury warrior, then you're a net benefit with Arms.
Now, if they do less than that amount of damage compared to you, then you get less overall benefit (relatively speaking), but of course, the marginal benefit from going Fury is being reduced also, so it should basically even out.
And it pretty much crosses the line into asshole-ishness if a raid leader chooses to exclude somebody over something like a 5% cumulative difference in your individual damage.
Now, if they do less than that amount of damage compared to you, then you get less overall benefit (relatively speaking), but of course, the marginal benefit from going Fury is being reduced also, so it should basically even out.
And it pretty much crosses the line into asshole-ishness if a raid leader chooses to exclude somebody over something like a 5% cumulative difference in your individual damage.
| but it would take an extreme amount of physical DPS before BF made up the difference between Arms (ie 2h build without Flurry) and DW Fury. And that's if Rend or Deep Wounds was up 100% of the time. |
How much of a difference in DPS is there between say, 33/28, and 17/44? Assuming optimal specs/gear and positioning on a single-target fight? I personally don't think there would be more then a 20% difference in their damage.
Big loses;
Flurry, 10% attack speed
MS vs BT; After a certain amount of AP, BT is better. This value should be attainable in a raid buffed situation...unless you have a T3 blacksmithing weapons or other 125+ dps 2 hander.
10% AP off from the imp berserk stance talent.
So blood frenzy would have to make up 20% of a fury warrior's damage (give or take) to be better for the raid over all. So if you run with 5+ melee of the fury warrior's caliber, or better, or if you run with more then that, then bloody frenzy would likely come out better off.
For example, we ran 3 hunters, 3 rogues, 2 feral druids and 3 warriors on magthridon last night. Now, the warriors (myself included) did crap dps, with none in the top 10. 1 feral tanked magtheridon, and the other was on cubes and has bad DPS gear. But all told that's 11 people getting benefit from the buff. That HAS to make up the difference between lack-luster arms and good fury right there.
I'd imagine it's also EXCELLENT for a feral druid's agro compared to a prot warrior. A larger portion of their threat comes from white damage.
Anyone else have any thoughts?
I can't open WWS parses and look at actual combat logs to calculate because they tell me that's a "poor use" of my time at work. I like where this theorycrafting is going but can anyone show a couple examples of fights with actual numbers and recalculate so we have some hard data? If no one else can I'll probably do it when I get home tonight but it will probably be a while.
I'll use graul's damage meters and raid composition, just because they are here.
Magtheridon
Graul; 644k damage, second on the meters. 7 that benefit from BF (8 if that shaman is enhancement...also assuming the druids are feral and not boomkin. Also, this doesn't include any people cut off the bottom of the meter, like a MT warrior if there was one)
3,183,000 physical damage done.
4% of that value is; 127,320 damage
127,320 is 19.77% of Graul's damage, which he maintained at 1036 DPS.
Theoretical break even point is 831 or great DPS with the 33/28 spec.
---------
Now, for the other fight. Karathress;
Graul did 574k damage @ 968 dps, second on the meters. 7 that benefit from BF (8, again, assuming the shaman is enhancement)
2,292,000 physical damage done.
4% is 91,680 damage
91,680 is ~16% of Graul's damage
Theoretical break even point here is 813 DPS with the BF build.
Interesting anyways.
Magtheridon
Graul; 644k damage, second on the meters. 7 that benefit from BF (8 if that shaman is enhancement...also assuming the druids are feral and not boomkin. Also, this doesn't include any people cut off the bottom of the meter, like a MT warrior if there was one)
3,183,000 physical damage done.
4% of that value is; 127,320 damage
127,320 is 19.77% of Graul's damage, which he maintained at 1036 DPS.
Theoretical break even point is 831 or great DPS with the 33/28 spec.
---------
Now, for the other fight. Karathress;
Graul did 574k damage @ 968 dps, second on the meters. 7 that benefit from BF (8, again, assuming the shaman is enhancement)
2,292,000 physical damage done.
4% is 91,680 damage
91,680 is ~16% of Graul's damage
Theoretical break even point here is 813 DPS with the BF build.
Interesting anyways.
Not to highjack this thread, but I've stumbled across a 2hfury dps warrior with a rather interesting setup.
http://armory.worldofwarcraft.com/#c...rgath&n=George
Mind you he does have everything popped before logging out, but I'm sure this is evidence that the theorycrafted 2h-fury dps build is indeed viable.
My question would be, in terms of Blacksmithing, which weapon would be better suited for PvE dps, Sword (Lionheart Series), Axe (Lunar/Moon/Bloodmoon)?
http://armory.worldofwarcraft.com/#c...rgath&n=George
Mind you he does have everything popped before logging out, but I'm sure this is evidence that the theorycrafted 2h-fury dps build is indeed viable.
My question would be, in terms of Blacksmithing, which weapon would be better suited for PvE dps, Sword (Lionheart Series), Axe (Lunar/Moon/Bloodmoon)?
Edited onPatch 2.1.1
EJ's Vashj kill on sunday, heres the physical dps from the WWS thread
Tehax is MS spec, and has 35 in arms. Total physical dps done was 3,830,210
Would he have done 153,208 more damage as Fury?
3 Skru war 457,697 913 4 Cryingrogue rog 441,291 1026 5 Kurapica hnt 434,955 823 6 Backsa rog 409,218 965 7 Snowcrasher hnt 374,053 748 9 Tehax war 371,731 795 12 Gonktarget hnt 328,843 708 13 Shabadu sha 318,194 711 15 Wodin rog 310,087 731 17 Umph drd 275,859 599 18 Paches war 108,282 246
Would he have done 153,208 more damage as Fury?
Last edited by Asmik : 06/13/07 at 4:32 PM. Reason: Formatting code... I fail.
Edited onPatch 2.1.1
| Mind you he does have everything popped before logging out, but I'm sure this is evidence that the theorycrafted 2h-fury dps build is indeed viable. |
It's impressive...but doesn't prove anything.
| Would he have done 153,208 more damage as Fury? |
Edit; Lets think about this for a minute. He'd need to improve his DPS by almost 41%
Assume a 2hander fury build as the "DPS" equivalent, as i dont know what his DW gear is like.
1. Your number assumes 100% BF uptime on what the physical DPS is targetting...isn't phase 2 split DPS? So some uptime is lost there.
2. Flurry = close to 25% more white damage, which is 50% of his overall damage (give or take). ~12.5% more damage.
3. Imp berserk stance = 10% more AP
4. Rampage = 275 more AP
5. Imp slam = big DPS increase.
6. Imp execute would be an increase in DPS too.
7. He'd lose an additional 5% crit and 5% overall damage as well.
It would be close i think, with arms likely being favored.
Last edited by Calgar : 06/13/07 at 4:57 PM. Reason: ZOMG spelling and math corrections
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Originally Posted by Calgar
Assume a 2hander fury build as the "DPS" equivalent, as i dont know what his DW gear is like. 1. Your number assumes 100% BF uptime on what the physical DPS is targetting...isn't phase 2 split DPS? So some uptime is lost there. 2. Flurry = close to 25% more white damage, which is 50% of his overall damage (give or take). ~12.5% more damage. 3. Imp berserk stance = 10% more AP 4. Rampage = 275 more AP 5. Imp slam = big DPS increase. 6. Imp execute would be an increase in DPS too. 7. He'd lose an additional 5% crit and 5% overall damage as well. It would be close i think, with arms likely being favored. |
I believe the two hand miss rate is around 8.6% vs a 73 mob, with 3/3 in the precision talent you would only need 5.6% to reduce miss rates greatly, allowing yourself to concentrate more on critical and attack power gear.
Just wanted to rehijack my thread here in regard to someone talking about threat capping your dps. I'm willing to bet 8/10 "dw fury" warriors dps using Cleave since it's "more threat efficient" than Heroic Strike. Got some news for y'all:
Cleave = +70 damage (untalented) and +130 threat
Heroic Strike = +176 damage and +196 threat
Assuming a boss's armor reduction at 20% we get:
Cleave = 56 + 130 = 186 threat, * 0.8 (zerker/battle stance) = 148.8 threat
Heroic Strike = 140.8 + 196 = 336.8 threat * 0.8 = 269.44 threat
Take a look at the damage to threat ratio here...
Cleave = 56 / 148.8 = 0.376
Heroic Strike = 140.8 / 269.44 = 0.523
Holy... so the majority of fury warriors running around out there spamming Cleave instead of Heroic Strike since it's "safer" are actually further threat capping themselves.
Even fully talented:
Cleave = ( 154 * 0.8 + 130 ) * 0.8 = 202.56
123 / 202.56 = 0.608 damage per threat.
So for three talent points (read: 3) you get a whopping 1 more damage for 13 threat going from Heroic Strike to Cleave. Total waste imo.
Cleave = +70 damage (untalented) and +130 threat
Heroic Strike = +176 damage and +196 threat
Assuming a boss's armor reduction at 20% we get:
Cleave = 56 + 130 = 186 threat, * 0.8 (zerker/battle stance) = 148.8 threat
Heroic Strike = 140.8 + 196 = 336.8 threat * 0.8 = 269.44 threat
Take a look at the damage to threat ratio here...
Cleave = 56 / 148.8 = 0.376
Heroic Strike = 140.8 / 269.44 = 0.523
Holy... so the majority of fury warriors running around out there spamming Cleave instead of Heroic Strike since it's "safer" are actually further threat capping themselves.
Even fully talented:
Cleave = ( 154 * 0.8 + 130 ) * 0.8 = 202.56
123 / 202.56 = 0.608 damage per threat.
So for three talent points (read: 3) you get a whopping 1 more damage for 13 threat going from Heroic Strike to Cleave. Total waste imo.
Edited onPatch 2.1.1
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Originally Posted by Asmik
EJ's Vashj kill on sunday, heres the physical dps from the WWS thread
3 Skru war 457,697 913 4 Cryingrogue rog 441,291 1026 5 Kurapica hnt 434,955 823 6 Backsa rog 409,218 965 7 Snowcrasher hnt 374,053 748 9 Tehax war 371,731 795 12 Gonktarget hnt 328,843 708 13 Shabadu sha 318,194 711 15 Wodin rog 310,087 731 17 Umph drd 275,859 599 18 Paches war 108,282 246 Would he have done 153,208 more damage as Fury? |
If you're unlucky this can easily lose you 100k dmg or so total, and the rest may or may not be gear/skill/spec-differences.
And to add something to discuss - armor penetration? I picked the neck from BT trash up and replaced my heroic badge one. I'm pretty sure I made the right choice of taking this over supremus neck too, but how does armor penetration compare to haste with dualwield?
Last edited by svagftw : 06/13/07 at 7:44 PM.
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Originally Posted by Asmik
EJ's Vashj kill on sunday, heres the physical dps from the WWS thread
Tehax is MS spec, and has 35 in arms. Total physical dps done was 3,830,210 Would he have done 153,208 more damage as Fury? |
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Originally Posted by Voxx
Holy... so the majority of fury warriors running around out there spamming Cleave instead of Heroic Strike since it's "safer" are actually further threat capping themselves. |
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Originally Posted by LodeRunner
All I know is that I live through Void Reaver if I cleave, and that's pretty much the most aggro sensitive fight I deal with these days. Void Reaver is an espcially dangerous warrior fight because there is a limitless supply of rage gleaned from well-timed Berserker Rage usage.
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Of course you'll do more damage with HS spam; it does more for less! We've been switching over to the Omen threat meter as of late and I don't know if that handles Void Reaver's thread reduction properly yet so I'm just basically playing it safe on that fight. When I know those meters are accurate I'll try to tune what I do to be at an appropriate threat level for the encounter.
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Originally Posted by LodeRunner
Of course you'll do more damage with HS spam; it does more for less! We've been switching over to the Omen threat meter as of late and I don't know if that handles Void Reaver's thread reduction properly yet so I'm just basically playing it safe on that fight. When I know those meters are accurate I'll try to tune what I do to be at an appropriate threat level for the encounter.
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I think it's a psychological thing too. I can't look at a full rage bar. Must spend.
I'm honestly not sure how anyone can truly "Heroic Strike Spam" and put out consistently high DPS unless they are using a pretty fast main hand. I am using a 2.7 speed main hander, and the only time I ever use HS is in conjunction with spamstring when both BT and WW are on cooldown, Rampage has a while to go and I have excessive rage. I have yet to be in a situation where my rage bar is full enough to simply hit HS every attack or every other attack. Sometimes near the end of a fight when I switch out my main hand for executes and the mob is not quite at 20% yet I can liberally HS, but usually not during the course of a fight. I also will continue to prioritize hamstring over HS if it is ever an issue of rage. I do not believe that the threat of hamstring is as high as someone stated, but I could be completely wrong. It's just that adding in hamstrings ups the proc rate of Flurry, Windfury, Rampage and Trinkets. HS does not.
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Originally Posted by Phoenix
Too much dodge, too much shield block rating, not enough health. 450-550 TPS is totally unacceptable for where your raid progress is.
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I can use heroic strike mostly on every swing, 2.7 mh 2.6 oh. I raid alot without windfury since we bring 5 melee and group setup is shammy druid rogue rogue warr to get the most out of the group buffs, me and the other warrior take turns in being in the 'dps' group. But even with windfury I think heroic strike is much much better than spamstringing.
Edited onPatch 2.1.1
Where exactly are you getting this rage to Heroic on "most" swings, especially without Windfury? I have tried both using Heroic exclusively without hamstring and vise versa and using nothiung but Heroic cripples my DPS.
Last edited by Graul : 06/14/07 at 8:40 AM.
Edited onPatch 2.1.1
I'm curious as to what specs 2H raiding warriors are using to produce these kinds of results?
I've been testing out 31/30 (MS/flurry/impslam) and It seems like I'm mostly rage-starved the majority of the time, even when I'm in a group with a feral druid & resto shaman. We also usually have a survival hunter and another warrior with Blood Frenzy. Even then, the kind of damage I'm putting out isn't nearly what I've come to expect from a warrior. To get an ideal of my dilemna: I'm usually dead last on damage meters for the majority of boss fights I get to DPS on.
My rotation is WW/MS whenever they're up, and slam for rage dumps after white attacks. Like I said though, I'm usually rage-starved, so spamming slam is out of the question.
My gear is pretty good, ~1700 AP, bloodmoon, max hit, 39.5% crit before raid/party/self buffs.
Our raid DPS isn't horrible by any means (we killed Leo last night with 4 minutes to spare), so I've began to think maybe I've hit my limit as far as damage is concerned. Any ideas to what my failure point might be? I'd post some damage meters, but I've been so embarassed by them that I don't even bother to screenshot them.
I've been testing out 31/30 (MS/flurry/impslam) and It seems like I'm mostly rage-starved the majority of the time, even when I'm in a group with a feral druid & resto shaman. We also usually have a survival hunter and another warrior with Blood Frenzy. Even then, the kind of damage I'm putting out isn't nearly what I've come to expect from a warrior. To get an ideal of my dilemna: I'm usually dead last on damage meters for the majority of boss fights I get to DPS on.
My rotation is WW/MS whenever they're up, and slam for rage dumps after white attacks. Like I said though, I'm usually rage-starved, so spamming slam is out of the question.
My gear is pretty good, ~1700 AP, bloodmoon, max hit, 39.5% crit before raid/party/self buffs.
Our raid DPS isn't horrible by any means (we killed Leo last night with 4 minutes to spare), so I've began to think maybe I've hit my limit as far as damage is concerned. Any ideas to what my failure point might be? I'd post some damage meters, but I've been so embarassed by them that I don't even bother to screenshot them.
Last edited by Gokey : 06/14/07 at 9:59 AM.
Edited onPatch 2.1.1
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Originally Posted by LodeRunner
Heh. That actually may not be the best guide to use there since Tehax is often switching specs so you can never really be sure what he was at that time. If you're gonna parse our stuff I suggest looking for fights involving Chocula.
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Last edited by Asmik : 06/14/07 at 10:37 AM. Reason: grammar
Gokey, for a 31/30 use a WW/MS rotation and HS for rage dump. You should average out at around 900+dps with a resto shaman and druid. I usually hit 800-900ish dps with just the resto shaman.
You may want to try regem or swap gear for more AP, try 33% and 2k ap. As long as you can achieve near 100% flurry, I would stack AP.
With 2hand flurry builds that have wf, I wouldn’t bother with slam. Most folks that use slam are non flurry builds or lack wf groups. If you want 1k+dps you need consumables or go dw...heh
You may want to try regem or swap gear for more AP, try 33% and 2k ap. As long as you can achieve near 100% flurry, I would stack AP.
With 2hand flurry builds that have wf, I wouldn’t bother with slam. Most folks that use slam are non flurry builds or lack wf groups. If you want 1k+dps you need consumables or go dw...heh
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Originally Posted by svagftw
I can use heroic strike mostly on every swing, 2.7 mh 2.6 oh. I raid alot without windfury since we bring 5 melee and group setup is shammy druid rogue rogue warr to get the most out of the group buffs, me and the other warrior take turns in being in the 'dps' group. But even with windfury I think heroic strike is much much better than spamstringing.
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Spamstring > heroic strike in terms of damage AND rage/damage to threat ratio.
Standard rotation should be BT/WW on cool-down, spamstring when you have a free global cool-down, while keeping rampage/BS up. Using heroic strike when you have 50+ rage (so you have some rage for when BT/WW come off of cool-down).
I'm not even going to both with the math of why hamstring > heroic strike in terms of damage....let alone threat, since it's so glaringly obvious.
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My rotation is WW/MS whenever they're up, and slam for rage dumps after white attacks. Like I said though, I'm usually rage-starved, so spamming slam is out of the question. My gear is pretty good, ~1700 AP, bloodmoon, max hit, 39.5% crit before raid/party/self buffs. Our raid DPS isn't horrible by any means (we killed Leo last night with 4 minutes to spare), so I've began to think maybe I've hit my limit as far as damage is concerned. Any ideas to what my failure point might be? I'd post some damage meters, but I've been so embarassed by them that I don't even bother to screenshot them. |
That's where i'm at ATM. I was always exceptionally well gear with heroic/crafted gear, and now that the rogues and casters are getting some drops, I'm starting to fall behind.
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And to add something to discuss - armor penetration? I picked the neck from BT trash up and replaced my heroic badge one. I'm pretty sure I made the right choice of taking this over supremus neck too, but how does armor penetration compare to haste with dualwield? |
(All math is rough, and mostly theorycrafted, since i don't, and WON'T have any haste gear to work with for a long time.)
1% haste = 1% more white damage and 1% more rage, 1% more heroic strikes....Yellow damage is largely unaffected.
From various parses and damage meters of my own, white damage = ~50% of our damage overall.
In terms of mean DPS increase, point for point i think it's just about dead equal to crit rating. That is assuming that haste doesn't screw with the rage formula, normalization speeds for weapons, chance to proc items or anything else stupid like that.
Now, for -armor stat...i got nothing. From what i understand, armor mitigation is a linear increase when looked at from the side of how much damage is let through (I'm explaining this poorly, and can't figure out how best to describe it), so it SHOULD be possible to reverse engineer a formula for the effectiveness of the -armor stat.
A quick search has yielded no useful formula for armor reduction...ill have to play with my gear this evening and try to figure something out.
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Originally Posted by Calgar
1% haste = 1% more white damage and 1% more rage, 1% more heroic strikes....Yellow damage is largely unaffected.
From various parses and damage meters of my own, white damage = ~50% of our damage overall. |
I always get 50-51% white dmg.
It was wrong of me to use the word "think", sorry. What I meant was that from my experiences of using heroic strike as only ragedump versus using hamstring I find heroic strike superior, and I do great dps. The other warrior I raid with also doesn't use hamstring, and always does awesome dps. Anecdotal evidence maybe, but I'll try to get some WWS up sometime this week.
I am currently dps'ing as a arms warrior in raids and im curious why more people dont use slam as part of the rotation?
I rarely if ever use heroic strike as a arms warrior as it starves me of rage, My normal rotation would be to use mortal strike, whirlwind and then slam.
Has anyone else used slam much in raids and comment on it?
I rarely if ever use heroic strike as a arms warrior as it starves me of rage, My normal rotation would be to use mortal strike, whirlwind and then slam.
Has anyone else used slam much in raids and comment on it?
i'm arms as well at the moment, 31/30, and i use slam a lot as well, with my current weapon, bloodmoon, it usually does about 1k-1,5k damage, with crits of up to 2k. usually do a rotation of mortal strike , whirlwind, slam, and heroic strike when i have too much rage.
Recently respecced to imp slam as i just had too much rage going to waste with mortal strike and whirlwind on cooldown. Which boosted my dps quite a bit without making my threat significantly higher. I tend to avoid using Heroic Strike too much due to threat issues. Now i just have convince the raid shammies to use WF in stead of the silly GoA, but so far i'm outnumbered by feral druids and rogues...
Recently respecced to imp slam as i just had too much rage going to waste with mortal strike and whirlwind on cooldown. Which boosted my dps quite a bit without making my threat significantly higher. I tend to avoid using Heroic Strike too much due to threat issues. Now i just have convince the raid shammies to use WF in stead of the silly GoA, but so far i'm outnumbered by feral druids and rogues...
I certainly find it much better to use than heroic strike and the damage can be very good, I've had 3.3k slam crits on Lady Vashj just recently and thats nothing to laugh at for a 15 rage ability.
I don't know if this help anyone, but here's our most recent Lurker kill:
Check out my Armory Profile for my spec/gear.
The group Makeup was:
Ret Pally
Resto Shammy
Feral Druid
Rogue
Me.
Check out my Armory Profile for my spec/gear.
The group Makeup was:
Ret Pally
Resto Shammy
Feral Druid
Rogue
Me.
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Originally Posted by Paa
I am currently dps'ing as a arms warrior in raids and im curious why more people dont use slam as part of the rotation?
I rarely if ever use heroic strike as a arms warrior as it starves me of rage, My normal rotation would be to use mortal strike, whirlwind and then slam. Has anyone else used slam much in raids and comment on it? |
Windfury totem makes or breaks your sustained dps imo.
Bal man....you have to learn to duck whirl...you got hit 22 times. That's 65,000 damage your healers shouldn't have needed to heal. If you are using it as a free rage generation tactic, i'd hope you have lurker on super farm mode to be doing something like that.
As for lurker in general, he's a good fight for warrior DPS because of being able to whirlwind/cleave the adds (not that you used cleave). I was top DPS on our learning attempts last night every time i didn't die early.
Significantly higher slam damage then expected....but thinking about it, it seems about right.
As for lurker in general, he's a good fight for warrior DPS because of being able to whirlwind/cleave the adds (not that you used cleave). I was top DPS on our learning attempts last night every time i didn't die early.
Significantly higher slam damage then expected....but thinking about it, it seems about right.
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Originally Posted by Calgar
Bal man....you have to learn to duck whirl...you got hit 22 times. That's 65,000 damage your healers shouldn't have needed to heal. If you are using it as a free rage generation tactic, i'd hope you have lurker on super farm mode to be doing something like that.
As for lurker in general, he's a good fight for warrior DPS because of being able to whirlwind/cleave the adds (not that you used cleave). I was top DPS on our learning attempts last night every time i didn't die early. Significantly higher slam damage then expected....but thinking about it, it seems about right. |
And if you look at the healing part of the meter, the resto shaman in my group alone healed almost all the damage from all the whirls I took. We've got no problem with Lurker.
Hrm, I'm pretty sure our melee eat just about every whirl. We were never told to even try to avoid it, and our healers never complained. We actually try to stand as close as possible so it doesn't knock us all the way to the water, just from the inner edge to the outer edge of the platform. /shrug
How far away do you have to go to avoid it? I'm pretty sure I've been knocked into the water standing nearly on the outer edge of the platform, unless that was someone's geyser happening conveniently at the same time.
How far away do you have to go to avoid it? I'm pretty sure I've been knocked into the water standing nearly on the outer edge of the platform, unless that was someone's geyser happening conveniently at the same time.
One thing is that everyone keeps saying "physical" damage, when talking about Blood Frenzy - the talent says "melee damage", so I think Hunters are left out on that one.
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Originally Posted by dr_AllCOM3
Haste doesn't increase rage gain, I think. Just more UW procs.
I always get 50-51% white dmg. |
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Originally Posted by Shaker
One thing is that everyone keeps saying "physical" damage, when talking about Blood Frenzy - the talent says "melee damage", so I think Hunters are left out on that one.
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| The talent says increases physical damage by 4% and hunters shots are mostly considered physical i believe. |
My bad i guess. Hunter's probably shouldn't be affected then.
Ingame in the talent tree it says Physical damage
Taken from wowhead:
Blood Frenzy Rank 2
Your Rend and Deep Wounds abilities also increase all physical damage caused to that target by 4%.
Taken from wowhead:
Blood Frenzy Rank 2
Your Rend and Deep Wounds abilities also increase all physical damage caused to that target by 4%.
Heh this always eventually comes up in Warrior threads. =o
http://www.thottbot.com/s30070 the +damage mod applied is to physical.
http://www.thottbot.com/s30070 the +damage mod applied is to physical.
Thanks Emeraude. Good news for Hunters, then!
Edited onPatch 2.1.1
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Originally Posted by Nen
Gokey, for a 31/30 use a WW/MS rotation and HS for rage dump. You should average out at around 900+dps with a resto shaman and druid. I usually hit 800-900ish dps with just the resto shaman.
You may want to try regem or swap gear for more AP, try 33% and 2k ap. As long as you can achieve near 100% flurry, I would stack AP. With 2hand flurry builds that have wf, I wouldn’t bother with slam. Most folks that use slam are non flurry builds or lack wf groups. If you want 1k+dps you need consumables or go dw...heh |
Last edited by Graul : 06/14/07 at 6:27 PM.
Edited onPatch 2.1.1
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Originally Posted by Nen
Gokey, for a 31/30 use a WW/MS rotation and HS for rage dump. You should average out at around 900+dps with a resto shaman and druid. I usually hit 800-900ish dps with just the resto shaman.
You may want to try regem or swap gear for more AP, try 33% and 2k ap. As long as you can achieve near 100% flurry, I would stack AP. |
I'm gonna re-gem some things for more AP and see if it changes anything
Also, Wasn't it theorycrafted some where that critical strikes are capped at a certain % versus level 73+ mobs because of glancing blows? I'm currently running close to 48% raid buffed crit, so that may be where some of the fault is. (I didn't do it on purpose, my PvE build doubles as my PvP build, so I have a lot of crit because of the Axe)
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Originally Posted by Bal
I don't know if this help anyone, but here's our most recent Lurker kill:
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Last edited by Gokey : 06/14/07 at 8:38 PM.
Just a screenshot of vashj damagemeters to show how random that fight can be.
It's a very bad fight to measure dps on, especially melee
It's a very bad fight to measure dps on, especially melee
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Originally Posted by Gokey
My gear seems to be a bit better than yours and you're putting out a lot more damage... I'm doing something wrong. |
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Originally Posted by Bal
You are undervaluing Slam and Overvaluing HS/WW
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Are you spamming slam nonstop with breaks for WW/MS?
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Originally Posted by Bal
You are undervaluing Slam and Overvaluing HS/WW
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Gokey, for a 31/30 use a WW/MS rotation and HS for rage dump. You should average out at around 900+dps with a resto shaman and druid. I usually hit 800-900ish dps with just the resto shaman.
You may want to try regem or swap gear for more AP, try 33% and 2k ap. As long as you can achieve near 100% flurry, I would stack AP.
With 2hand flurry builds that have wf, I wouldn’t bother with slam. Most folks that use slam are non flurry builds or lack wf groups. If you want 1k+dps you need consumables or go dw...heh
You may want to try regem or swap gear for more AP, try 33% and 2k ap. As long as you can achieve near 100% flurry, I would stack AP.
With 2hand flurry builds that have wf, I wouldn’t bother with slam. Most folks that use slam are non flurry builds or lack wf groups. If you want 1k+dps you need consumables or go dw...heh
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Originally Posted by svagftw
I can use heroic strike mostly on every swing, 2.7 mh 2.6 oh. I raid alot without windfury since we bring 5 melee and group setup is shammy druid rogue rogue warr to get the most out of the group buffs, me and the other warrior take turns in being in the 'dps' group. But even with windfury I think heroic strike is much much better than spamstringing.
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Spamstring > heroic strike in terms of damage AND rage/damage to threat ratio.
Standard rotation should be BT/WW on cool-down, spamstring when you have a free global cool-down, while keeping rampage/BS up. Using heroic strike when you have 50+ rage (so you have some rage for when BT/WW come off of cool-down).
I'm not even going to both with the math of why hamstring > heroic strike in terms of damage....let alone threat, since it's so glaringly obvious.
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My rotation is WW/MS whenever they're up, and slam for rage dumps after white attacks. Like I said though, I'm usually rage-starved, so spamming slam is out of the question. My gear is pretty good, ~1700 AP, bloodmoon, max hit, 39.5% crit before raid/party/self buffs. Our raid DPS isn't horrible by any means (we killed Leo last night with 4 minutes to spare), so I've began to think maybe I've hit my limit as far as damage is concerned. Any ideas to what my failure point might be? I'd post some damage meters, but I've been so embarassed by them that I don't even bother to screenshot them. |
That's where i'm at ATM. I was always exceptionally well gear with heroic/crafted gear, and now that the rogues and casters are getting some drops, I'm starting to fall behind.
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And to add something to discuss - armor penetration? I picked the neck from BT trash up and replaced my heroic badge one. I'm pretty sure I made the right choice of taking this over supremus neck too, but how does armor penetration compare to haste with dualwield? |
(All math is rough, and mostly theorycrafted, since i don't, and WON'T have any haste gear to work with for a long time.)
1% haste = 1% more white damage and 1% more rage, 1% more heroic strikes....Yellow damage is largely unaffected.
From various parses and damage meters of my own, white damage = ~50% of our damage overall.
In terms of mean DPS increase, point for point i think it's just about dead equal to crit rating. That is assuming that haste doesn't screw with the rage formula, normalization speeds for weapons, chance to proc items or anything else stupid like that.
Now, for -armor stat...i got nothing. From what i understand, armor mitigation is a linear increase when looked at from the side of how much damage is let through (I'm explaining this poorly, and can't figure out how best to describe it), so it SHOULD be possible to reverse engineer a formula for the effectiveness of the -armor stat.
A quick search has yielded no useful formula for armor reduction...ill have to play with my gear this evening and try to figure something out.
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Originally Posted by Calgar
1% haste = 1% more white damage and 1% more rage, 1% more heroic strikes....Yellow damage is largely unaffected.
From various parses and damage meters of my own, white damage = ~50% of our damage overall. |
I always get 50-51% white dmg.
It was wrong of me to use the word "think", sorry. What I meant was that from my experiences of using heroic strike as only ragedump versus using hamstring I find heroic strike superior, and I do great dps. The other warrior I raid with also doesn't use hamstring, and always does awesome dps. Anecdotal evidence maybe, but I'll try to get some WWS up sometime this week.
I am currently dps'ing as a arms warrior in raids and im curious why more people dont use slam as part of the rotation?
I rarely if ever use heroic strike as a arms warrior as it starves me of rage, My normal rotation would be to use mortal strike, whirlwind and then slam.
Has anyone else used slam much in raids and comment on it?
I rarely if ever use heroic strike as a arms warrior as it starves me of rage, My normal rotation would be to use mortal strike, whirlwind and then slam.
Has anyone else used slam much in raids and comment on it?
i'm arms as well at the moment, 31/30, and i use slam a lot as well, with my current weapon, bloodmoon, it usually does about 1k-1,5k damage, with crits of up to 2k. usually do a rotation of mortal strike , whirlwind, slam, and heroic strike when i have too much rage.
Recently respecced to imp slam as i just had too much rage going to waste with mortal strike and whirlwind on cooldown. Which boosted my dps quite a bit without making my threat significantly higher. I tend to avoid using Heroic Strike too much due to threat issues. Now i just have convince the raid shammies to use WF in stead of the silly GoA, but so far i'm outnumbered by feral druids and rogues...
Recently respecced to imp slam as i just had too much rage going to waste with mortal strike and whirlwind on cooldown. Which boosted my dps quite a bit without making my threat significantly higher. I tend to avoid using Heroic Strike too much due to threat issues. Now i just have convince the raid shammies to use WF in stead of the silly GoA, but so far i'm outnumbered by feral druids and rogues...
I certainly find it much better to use than heroic strike and the damage can be very good, I've had 3.3k slam crits on Lady Vashj just recently and thats nothing to laugh at for a 15 rage ability.
I don't know if this help anyone, but here's our most recent Lurker kill:
Check out my Armory Profile for my spec/gear.
The group Makeup was:
Ret Pally
Resto Shammy
Feral Druid
Rogue
Me.
Check out my Armory Profile for my spec/gear.
The group Makeup was:
Ret Pally
Resto Shammy
Feral Druid
Rogue
Me.
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Originally Posted by Paa
I am currently dps'ing as a arms warrior in raids and im curious why more people dont use slam as part of the rotation?
I rarely if ever use heroic strike as a arms warrior as it starves me of rage, My normal rotation would be to use mortal strike, whirlwind and then slam. Has anyone else used slam much in raids and comment on it? |
Windfury totem makes or breaks your sustained dps imo.
Bal man....you have to learn to duck whirl...you got hit 22 times. That's 65,000 damage your healers shouldn't have needed to heal. If you are using it as a free rage generation tactic, i'd hope you have lurker on super farm mode to be doing something like that.
As for lurker in general, he's a good fight for warrior DPS because of being able to whirlwind/cleave the adds (not that you used cleave). I was top DPS on our learning attempts last night every time i didn't die early.
Significantly higher slam damage then expected....but thinking about it, it seems about right.
As for lurker in general, he's a good fight for warrior DPS because of being able to whirlwind/cleave the adds (not that you used cleave). I was top DPS on our learning attempts last night every time i didn't die early.
Significantly higher slam damage then expected....but thinking about it, it seems about right.
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Originally Posted by Calgar
Bal man....you have to learn to duck whirl...you got hit 22 times. That's 65,000 damage your healers shouldn't have needed to heal. If you are using it as a free rage generation tactic, i'd hope you have lurker on super farm mode to be doing something like that.
As for lurker in general, he's a good fight for warrior DPS because of being able to whirlwind/cleave the adds (not that you used cleave). I was top DPS on our learning attempts last night every time i didn't die early. Significantly higher slam damage then expected....but thinking about it, it seems about right. |
And if you look at the healing part of the meter, the resto shaman in my group alone healed almost all the damage from all the whirls I took. We've got no problem with Lurker.
Hrm, I'm pretty sure our melee eat just about every whirl. We were never told to even try to avoid it, and our healers never complained. We actually try to stand as close as possible so it doesn't knock us all the way to the water, just from the inner edge to the outer edge of the platform. /shrug
How far away do you have to go to avoid it? I'm pretty sure I've been knocked into the water standing nearly on the outer edge of the platform, unless that was someone's geyser happening conveniently at the same time.
How far away do you have to go to avoid it? I'm pretty sure I've been knocked into the water standing nearly on the outer edge of the platform, unless that was someone's geyser happening conveniently at the same time.
One thing is that everyone keeps saying "physical" damage, when talking about Blood Frenzy - the talent says "melee damage", so I think Hunters are left out on that one.
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Originally Posted by dr_AllCOM3
Haste doesn't increase rage gain, I think. Just more UW procs.
I always get 50-51% white dmg. |
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Originally Posted by Shaker
One thing is that everyone keeps saying "physical" damage, when talking about Blood Frenzy - the talent says "melee damage", so I think Hunters are left out on that one.
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| The talent says increases physical damage by 4% and hunters shots are mostly considered physical i believe. |
My bad i guess. Hunter's probably shouldn't be affected then.
Ingame in the talent tree it says Physical damage
Taken from wowhead:
Blood Frenzy Rank 2
Your Rend and Deep Wounds abilities also increase all physical damage caused to that target by 4%.
Taken from wowhead:
Blood Frenzy Rank 2
Your Rend and Deep Wounds abilities also increase all physical damage caused to that target by 4%.
Heh this always eventually comes up in Warrior threads. =o
http://www.thottbot.com/s30070 the +damage mod applied is to physical.
http://www.thottbot.com/s30070 the +damage mod applied is to physical.
Thanks Emeraude. Good news for Hunters, then!
Edited onPatch 2.1.1
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Originally Posted by Nen
Gokey, for a 31/30 use a WW/MS rotation and HS for rage dump. You should average out at around 900+dps with a resto shaman and druid. I usually hit 800-900ish dps with just the resto shaman.
You may want to try regem or swap gear for more AP, try 33% and 2k ap. As long as you can achieve near 100% flurry, I would stack AP. With 2hand flurry builds that have wf, I wouldn’t bother with slam. Most folks that use slam are non flurry builds or lack wf groups. If you want 1k+dps you need consumables or go dw...heh |
Last edited by Graul : 06/14/07 at 6:27 PM.
Edited onPatch 2.1.1
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Originally Posted by Nen
Gokey, for a 31/30 use a WW/MS rotation and HS for rage dump. You should average out at around 900+dps with a resto shaman and druid. I usually hit 800-900ish dps with just the resto shaman.
You may want to try regem or swap gear for more AP, try 33% and 2k ap. As long as you can achieve near 100% flurry, I would stack AP. |
I'm gonna re-gem some things for more AP and see if it changes anything
Also, Wasn't it theorycrafted some where that critical strikes are capped at a certain % versus level 73+ mobs because of glancing blows? I'm currently running close to 48% raid buffed crit, so that may be where some of the fault is. (I didn't do it on purpose, my PvE build doubles as my PvP build, so I have a lot of crit because of the Axe)
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Originally Posted by Bal
I don't know if this help anyone, but here's our most recent Lurker kill:
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Last edited by Gokey : 06/14/07 at 8:38 PM.
Just a screenshot of vashj damagemeters to show how random that fight can be.
It's a very bad fight to measure dps on, especially melee
It's a very bad fight to measure dps on, especially melee
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Originally Posted by Gokey
My gear seems to be a bit better than yours and you're putting out a lot more damage... I'm doing something wrong. |
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Originally Posted by Bal
You are undervaluing Slam and Overvaluing HS/WW
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Are you spamming slam nonstop with breaks for WW/MS?
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Originally Posted by Bal
You are undervaluing Slam and Overvaluing HS/WW
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Originally Posted by Bal
You are undervaluing Slam and Overvaluing HS/WW
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Hamstring is never better than WW except in situations where WW would break CC. And Slam for a 2h is more rage efficient damage than either MS or WW depending on AP level and the top end damage and speed of the weapon. Even though it may be more efficient, you wouldn't want to try and Slam twice before your next auto unless you have an extremely slow weapon and also either do not have Flurry or are just perfect at timing even when Flurry procs.
Really? I mean the dmg on WW with a 1h is nothing to write home about and hamstring is less than half the rage even if you don't have any of the pvp items which reduce it, so more hits to proc WF or mongoose etc. I assume the rest of your post isn't addressed to me even though it's not seperated since it's about 2h.
I have been very interested in this thread and have been 31/30 since i hit 70. I have loved it, its great for pvp, and for PVE with slam it seemed to deal a decent amount of damage. So I grabbed a few healers and went out to one of grull's sons. It was the son near the Blades Edge Arena. I choose him because he didnt stun but would hit me hard enough to have plenty of rage.
During both attempts I was buffed with Windfurry, Blessing of Might, Kings, 20 strength food, Improved BS and mark of the wild.
I used the same abilities with both fights to try and keep the data as close as possible. Below are the results i got
Mortal strike build 31/30
http://www.lossendil.com/wws/?report=1swaptqbb2xwc&a=4
Fury build 20/41 I already had enough plus hit, and I put 3 points into 2h specialization.
http://www.lossendil.com/wws/?report=ogtfp2ju6xsfm&a=2
So just from a purely same situation same abilities except for Rampage and the cooldown on whirlwind my overall DPS went up by 120! to me thats insane.
I have Tier 4 dps gear, with some arena gear, a gorehowl, not super great gear but a fair amount of good epics.
From these results its apparent to me that a 2h fury build is far superior to mortal strike 31/30. This also a standpoint for pure PVE dps.
On a side not i also picked up improved thunderclap and improved demo shout because I feel as a dps warrior its partially my job to help the raid and tanks with debuffs.
I also understand this is not a perfect environment, and these values are pretty rough, like in the MS output there was a pally thing going on... but I still have a hard time believing 120 dps difference was not just a fluke.
During both attempts I was buffed with Windfurry, Blessing of Might, Kings, 20 strength food, Improved BS and mark of the wild.
I used the same abilities with both fights to try and keep the data as close as possible. Below are the results i got
Mortal strike build 31/30
http://www.lossendil.com/wws/?report=1swaptqbb2xwc&a=4
Fury build 20/41 I already had enough plus hit, and I put 3 points into 2h specialization.
http://www.lossendil.com/wws/?report=ogtfp2ju6xsfm&a=2
So just from a purely same situation same abilities except for Rampage and the cooldown on whirlwind my overall DPS went up by 120! to me thats insane.
I have Tier 4 dps gear, with some arena gear, a gorehowl, not super great gear but a fair amount of good epics.
From these results its apparent to me that a 2h fury build is far superior to mortal strike 31/30. This also a standpoint for pure PVE dps.
On a side not i also picked up improved thunderclap and improved demo shout because I feel as a dps warrior its partially my job to help the raid and tanks with debuffs.
I also understand this is not a perfect environment, and these values are pretty rough, like in the MS output there was a pally thing going on... but I still have a hard time believing 120 dps difference was not just a fluke.
Sample size. On the Fury test you had about 40% of your Slams and Bloodthirsts crit, on the Arms test you had about 25% of your Mortal Strikes and Slams crit. On the Fury test you gained Enrage 8 times, on the Arms test 5 times. Etc. You're going to need about 20 minutes of sampling for the random elements to start smoothening out, which either means boring your healers to tears or doing a week or so of raid testing with your builds. 120 dps of difference is well within the range of a fluke for 3 minutes worth of fighting.
Edited onPatch 2.1.1
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Originally Posted by Darkrenown
Really? I mean the dmg on WW with a 1h is nothing to write home about and hamstring is less than half the rage even if you don't have any of the pvp items which reduce it, so more hits to proc WF or mongoose etc. I assume the rest of your post isn't addressed to me even though it's not seperated since it's about 2h.
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Hamstring is 63 damage for 10 rage, or 6.3 damage per rage.
Whirlwind with let's say a Gladiator's cleaver (1h Arena weapon) and 2000 AP (very low AP) would be 580 damage on average for 25 rage, or 23 damage per rage. Double, triple, quadruple the damage and efficiency where applicable.
| Sample size. On the Fury test you had about 40% of your Slams and Bloodthirsts crit, on the Arms test you had about 25% of your Mortal Strikes and Slams crit |
Last edited by Graul : 06/15/07 at 8:44 AM.
Well, after a couple of weeks of getting my ass handed to me on the damage meters, things are starting to look up for me.
I was top DPS on lurker until i pulled agro at 15% and got squished (and still got 4th). And with the....INSANELY good arena season 2 weapons, i should be seeing a BIG dps boost when i replace my fel-edged battle axe with a 97.5 dps off-hand axe. An improvement of 27 stamina and a staggering 14dps on the off-hand alone.
Looks like arena is the place to get fury weapons if you don't have SSC and The Eye on farm now.
I was top DPS on lurker until i pulled agro at 15% and got squished (and still got 4th). And with the....INSANELY good arena season 2 weapons, i should be seeing a BIG dps boost when i replace my fel-edged battle axe with a 97.5 dps off-hand axe. An improvement of 27 stamina and a staggering 14dps on the off-hand alone.
Looks like arena is the place to get fury weapons if you don't have SSC and The Eye on farm now.
I have been following this thread for some time because I have been interested in the 2H fury.
Yesterday I specd 20/41/0 to give it a try. I ran a combat logger so I could look at my combat after our Gruul kill. I found a lot of peaks and valleys with my DPS and not because of moving on the shatter. but I am happy with the crits and hard hits I do get.
My question to those that are running 2H Fury is whats your attack sequence look like? I would like a more level DPS output and I really did not have a sequence last night.
Yesterday I specd 20/41/0 to give it a try. I ran a combat logger so I could look at my combat after our Gruul kill. I found a lot of peaks and valleys with my DPS and not because of moving on the shatter. but I am happy with the crits and hard hits I do get.
My question to those that are running 2H Fury is whats your attack sequence look like? I would like a more level DPS output and I really did not have a sequence last night.
Question for those advocating a MS/WW Slam rotation for a 31/30/0. What is your dps on average? If possible give a specific fight, and please include group composition. (Lurker seems popular, I float around 900-950 on him with a resto shaman)
I am a HS (heroic strike) spammer and have tried imp slam in the past and received the similar results for more work, willing to give it another go if imp slam out shines HS by that much...
I am a HS (heroic strike) spammer and have tried imp slam in the past and received the similar results for more work, willing to give it another go if imp slam out shines HS by that much...
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Originally Posted by Graul
Go fight the servants in the blasted lands for about 20 - 30 minutes with each spec. Your DPS is obviously going to be inflated due to the level difference, but it should at least show disparity between builds.
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Also +hit gear has very low effect on those, since they are 20 levels lower
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Originally Posted by Nen
Question for those advocating a MS/WW Slam rotation for a 31/30/0. What is your dps on average? If possible give a specific fight, and please include group composition. (Lurker seems popular, I float around 900-950 on him with a resto shaman)
I am a HS (heroic strike) spammer and have tried imp slam in the past and received the similar results for more work, willing to give it another go if imp slam out shines HS by that much... |
Awww, where'd crazypie go? Looks like he bailed after the WWS showed 2h+blood frenzy > Fury.
assuming you bring say, 8 melee dps (we bring 3 war (1 being me, MT), 1 feral, 2-3 rogues, 2-3 hunters)
Our rogues do 1200+ DPS on single target non moving fights.
The rest usually around 1k or a little below
Our MS war hovers from 800-1000 DPS on single target, increases w/ multi target
To be extremely generous with the Average, lets take 950 DPS as melee dps average.
4% of 950 is 38.
38x8 = 304 DPS gained from blood frenzy
DPS war's 900dps(generous once again) + 304 blood frenzy = 1204 effective raid dps
That doesn't include the extra damage from the tank, or the extra threat he gets, (even 2% threat gained is 20 TPS, which is very nice) Based on my usual 1k+ TPS on most boss fights.
Mortal strike can also be useful on a few rare occasions.
I highly highly highly doubt any fury warrior is pulling 1200+ DPS consistently on boss fights.
Show me WWS to prove me wrong, but Crazypie you really came off as a $*#@ in this thread, and I really think you have no idea what you're talkin' about.
"1500 DPS EASILY" ... show us WWS of even over 1200 single target as Fury.
assuming you bring say, 8 melee dps (we bring 3 war (1 being me, MT), 1 feral, 2-3 rogues, 2-3 hunters)
Our rogues do 1200+ DPS on single target non moving fights.
The rest usually around 1k or a little below
Our MS war hovers from 800-1000 DPS on single target, increases w/ multi target
To be extremely generous with the Average, lets take 950 DPS as melee dps average.
4% of 950 is 38.
38x8 = 304 DPS gained from blood frenzy
DPS war's 900dps(generous once again) + 304 blood frenzy = 1204 effective raid dps
That doesn't include the extra damage from the tank, or the extra threat he gets, (even 2% threat gained is 20 TPS, which is very nice) Based on my usual 1k+ TPS on most boss fights.
Mortal strike can also be useful on a few rare occasions.
I highly highly highly doubt any fury warrior is pulling 1200+ DPS consistently on boss fights.
Show me WWS to prove me wrong, but Crazypie you really came off as a $*#@ in this thread, and I really think you have no idea what you're talkin' about.
"1500 DPS EASILY" ... show us WWS of even over 1200 single target as Fury.
Is it still wise to hamstring while bt and ww are on cooldown if you do not have a shaman in your group, or would it be better to use heroic strike or cleave in this situation? I can see hamstring as a cheap way to get flurry procs but the damage would be mediocre without having windfury to go along with it.
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Originally Posted by jugg
Is it still wise to hamstring while bt and ww are on cooldown if you do not have a shaman in your group, or would it be better to use heroic strike or cleave in this situation? I can see hamstring as a cheap way to get flurry procs but the damage would be mediocre without having windfury to go along with it.
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2H -> Slam
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Originally Posted by jugg
Is it still wise to hamstring while bt and ww are on cooldown if you do not have a shaman in your group, or would it be better to use heroic strike or cleave in this situation? I can see hamstring as a cheap way to get flurry procs but the damage would be mediocre without having windfury to go along with it.
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Originally Posted by Apate
Have you tried the Spreadsheet? there is a field that tells you which rage dump is optimal given gear, buffs, and spec., especially for dual-wielding. Actually...why are you posting that question in this thread, anyway?
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Bal, took another look, I can't seem to locate your dps on that fight, just over all damage, as lurker can go on forever, no idea what your dps is…I can assume that it was a 8-10minute kill since there is 5minutes left on your kings. 1038dps (9minute kill) with a ret pld/fdruid/restoshaman
I did notice that you got in 27 executes? Not sure if I am reading that right…I am looking at my last lurker kill and I only had 13 with 2 misses. Are you swapping to 1handers? or a swapping to a faster 2hander for the last 20%?
I did notice that you got in 27 executes? Not sure if I am reading that right…I am looking at my last lurker kill and I only had 13 with 2 misses. Are you swapping to 1handers? or a swapping to a faster 2hander for the last 20%?
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Originally Posted by Bal
DW -> Cleave
2H -> Slam |
You can, in any combat you care about your dps this much, spam heroics as far as it goes. Heroic strike has always been a great rage dump; if it's not gruul with a fury warrior offtank, leotheras, hydross, whatever-aggro-reset-boss, you can always spam heroics with little to no pain. Actually, at this level where we assume optimum conditions, people should be playing perfectly; so you might ask for a soulstone too, and not worry at all about aggro.
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Originally Posted by Plea
This thread exists cause the answer to that question isnt that simple.
You can, in any combat you care about your dps this much, spam heroics as far as it goes. Heroic strike has always been a great rage dump; if it's not gruul with a fury warrior offtank, leotheras, hydross, whatever-aggro-reset-boss, you can always spam heroics with little to no pain. Actually, at this level where we assume optimum conditions, people should be playing perfectly; so you might ask for a soulstone too, and not worry at all about aggro. |
talented, Slam adds 140 damage with a .5 second cast time for 15 rage.
talented, Cleave adds 82 damage to your Next Melee attack and attacks an additional target for 20 rage.
talented, Heroic Strike adds 208 damage to your Next Melee attack and CAUSES A HIGH AMOUNT OF THREAT for 12 rage.
Now if you go nuts spamming Heroic Strike and ensure the whole time you're below the main tank... then suddenly get a big crit string and your aggro jumps, you're losing out on much more DPS by BEING DEAD then spending a little more rage and staying low on threat.
I find I get a lot more DPS by being alive and not sucking up B-Rezes and staying fully buffed the whole fight while PACING myself and DPSing RESPONSIBLY.
Yes, we all want to top the damage meter, but much like a balance between hit - crit - AP, you need to balance rage - damage - threat.
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Originally Posted by Bal
But the answer IS that simple
talented, Slam adds 140 damage with a .5 second cast time for 15 rage. talented, Cleave adds 82 damage to your Next Melee attack and attacks an additional target for 20 rage. talented, Heroic Strike adds 208 damage to your Next Melee attack and CAUSES A HIGH AMOUNT OF THREAT for 12 rage. Now if you go nuts spamming Heroic Strike and ensure the whole time you're below the main tank... then suddenly get a big crit string and your aggro jumps, you're losing out on much more DPS by BEING DEAD then spending a little more rage and staying low on threat. I find I get a lot more DPS by being alive and not sucking up B-Rezes and staying fully buffed the whole fight while PACING myself and DPSing RESPONSIBLY. Yes, we all want to top the damage meter, but much like a balance between hit - crit - AP, you need to balance rage - damage - threat. |
Thats all right and true, but its situational and not a good reason to use cleave. Use it if you need to scale back; but by no means consider it a replacement for HS, your only limiting yourself there.
Watch KTM; if you need to trade out heroic for cleave to reduce your aggro go for it, but cleave should not be replacing HS entirely in your cycle, infact if you are getting that close to the tank you should prob hold back a bit all together.
Any dps worth their salt should be able to judge their threat levels vs the tank and know if they will be pulling aggro in a few hits or not. A "huge crit string" is not an acceptable excuse for pulling aggro. You shouldn't sit 2k threat below the MT the whole time, your just inviting disaster along.
Edit: Also would like to point out that not many fury warriors would spec for Imp Cleave, although it is a great talent for Arms/Fury.
Edited onPatch 2.1.1
Experience is the big factor with threat IMO. If you know it's virtually impossible to pull threat (like prince for example) then you can HS to your heart's content. If it's a touchy fight like tidewalker (we killed lurker last night for the first time, and got some tries on this guy) then you might want to lay off of the high agro abilities in favor of a more moderated dps ability like cleave, slam or hamstring.
On a side note: I know a lot of warriors and rogues are blacksmiths. How many of you plan on switching to armorsmith for the breastplate and just getting arena weapons? The weapons are very similar to T3 crafted stuff, and the breastplate is a nice upgrade over my doomplate chest ATM. This also allows me to pass on the T4/T5 chest and save DKP for the rings/neck/trinket i want (Silly rogues trying to steal my gear!).
On a side note: I know a lot of warriors and rogues are blacksmiths. How many of you plan on switching to armorsmith for the breastplate and just getting arena weapons? The weapons are very similar to T3 crafted stuff, and the breastplate is a nice upgrade over my doomplate chest ATM. This also allows me to pass on the T4/T5 chest and save DKP for the rings/neck/trinket i want (Silly rogues trying to steal my gear!).
Last edited by Calgar : 06/15/07 at 3:00 PM.
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Originally Posted by Surion
Thats all right and true, but its situational and not a good reason to use cleave. Use it if you need to scale back; but by no means consider it a replacement for HS, your only limiting yourself there.
Watch KTM; if you need to trade out heroic for cleave to reduce your aggro go for it, but cleave should not be replacing HS entirely in your cycle, infact if you are getting that close to the tank you should prob hold back a bit all together. Any dps worth their salt should be able to judge their threat levels vs the tank and know if they will be pulling aggro in a few hits or not. A "huge crit string" is not an acceptable excuse for pulling aggro. You shouldn't sit 2k threat below the MT the whole time, your just inviting disaster along. Edit: Also would like to point out that not many fury warriors would spec for Imp Cleave, although it is a great talent for Arms/Fury. |
Why not just use an ability that doesnt generate extra threat so that you can use it more often and end out ABOVE the damage output you would if you used HS and had to hold back once climbing the threat meter?
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Originally Posted by Plea
This thread exists cause the answer to that question isnt that simple.
You can, in any combat you care about your dps this much, spam heroics as far as it goes. Heroic strike has always been a great rage dump; if it's not gruul with a fury warrior offtank, leotheras, hydross, whatever-aggro-reset-boss, you can always spam heroics with little to no pain. Actually, at this level where we assume optimum conditions, people should be playing perfectly; so you might ask for a soulstone too, and not worry at all about aggro. |
HS does 208 damage for 15 rage + losing all the rage on your next swing. Call it a 25 rage cost for 8 DPR.
Slam does 140 + DPS * (Weapon Speed - .5 - latency) damage, which is about 900 (low estimate). It costs 15 rage + losing (.5 + latency)/weapon speed of your next swing, call it 17 rage total for 53 DPR.
So, a Slam is about 6 times as good. Without counting the fact that it lets you proc Flurry, any trinkets you happen to have, Winfury and so on an additional time, which is going to add even more damage.
I guess the basic misconception leading to anyone ever hitting HS when wielding a 2h is that the resulting number is big. And hey, if the number is big, that means the dps must be ... or not. The important thing to remember is that just because the combat log says "[You] Heroic Strike [Foo] 1000" doesn't mean you actually did 1000 damage from hitting HS. You'd have done 800 of that damage on an autoswing anyhoo, now you did 200 damage more at the cost of not getting any rage from that hit. Yay. HS is crap for 2h. Don't touch it. You should even start spamming Slam before using HS, and Slamspam is horrible DPR compared to using Slam in a timed manner.
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Originally Posted by Bal
And slowing down your DPS does nothing but set you back a couple notches in total.
Why not just use an ability that doesnt generate extra threat so that you can use it more often and end out ABOVE the damage output you would if you used HS and had to hold back once climbing the threat meter? |
The only fight I really have this kind of problem with where I need to stop my cycle is Gruul. I would assume Leotheras would have problems but we have no fought him yet. Obviously Morogrim would provide problems, luckly there are other targets available however.
But fights like Magtheridon, even Hydross' quick transitions, I haven't had the problem staying near top dps with HS going. Your hunter(s, we only ever take one-two tops) should keep MD'ing the tank, you should have Salv, unless your putting out over 1k tps consistantly with salvation running, you shouldn't have a problem, but again I would suppose that is based off of your tank.
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Originally Posted by Bal
You are undervaluing Slam and Overvaluing HS/WW
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Hamstring is never better than WW except in situations where WW would break CC. And Slam for a 2h is more rage efficient damage than either MS or WW depending on AP level and the top end damage and speed of the weapon. Even though it may be more efficient, you wouldn't want to try and Slam twice before your next auto unless you have an extremely slow weapon and also either do not have Flurry or are just perfect at timing even when Flurry procs.
Really? I mean the dmg on WW with a 1h is nothing to write home about and hamstring is less than half the rage even if you don't have any of the pvp items which reduce it, so more hits to proc WF or mongoose etc. I assume the rest of your post isn't addressed to me even though it's not seperated since it's about 2h.
I have been very interested in this thread and have been 31/30 since i hit 70. I have loved it, its great for pvp, and for PVE with slam it seemed to deal a decent amount of damage. So I grabbed a few healers and went out to one of grull's sons. It was the son near the Blades Edge Arena. I choose him because he didnt stun but would hit me hard enough to have plenty of rage.
During both attempts I was buffed with Windfurry, Blessing of Might, Kings, 20 strength food, Improved BS and mark of the wild.
I used the same abilities with both fights to try and keep the data as close as possible. Below are the results i got
Mortal strike build 31/30
http://www.lossendil.com/wws/?report=1swaptqbb2xwc&a=4
Fury build 20/41 I already had enough plus hit, and I put 3 points into 2h specialization.
http://www.lossendil.com/wws/?report=ogtfp2ju6xsfm&a=2
So just from a purely same situation same abilities except for Rampage and the cooldown on whirlwind my overall DPS went up by 120! to me thats insane.
I have Tier 4 dps gear, with some arena gear, a gorehowl, not super great gear but a fair amount of good epics.
From these results its apparent to me that a 2h fury build is far superior to mortal strike 31/30. This also a standpoint for pure PVE dps.
On a side not i also picked up improved thunderclap and improved demo shout because I feel as a dps warrior its partially my job to help the raid and tanks with debuffs.
I also understand this is not a perfect environment, and these values are pretty rough, like in the MS output there was a pally thing going on... but I still have a hard time believing 120 dps difference was not just a fluke.
During both attempts I was buffed with Windfurry, Blessing of Might, Kings, 20 strength food, Improved BS and mark of the wild.
I used the same abilities with both fights to try and keep the data as close as possible. Below are the results i got
Mortal strike build 31/30
http://www.lossendil.com/wws/?report=1swaptqbb2xwc&a=4
Fury build 20/41 I already had enough plus hit, and I put 3 points into 2h specialization.
http://www.lossendil.com/wws/?report=ogtfp2ju6xsfm&a=2
So just from a purely same situation same abilities except for Rampage and the cooldown on whirlwind my overall DPS went up by 120! to me thats insane.
I have Tier 4 dps gear, with some arena gear, a gorehowl, not super great gear but a fair amount of good epics.
From these results its apparent to me that a 2h fury build is far superior to mortal strike 31/30. This also a standpoint for pure PVE dps.
On a side not i also picked up improved thunderclap and improved demo shout because I feel as a dps warrior its partially my job to help the raid and tanks with debuffs.
I also understand this is not a perfect environment, and these values are pretty rough, like in the MS output there was a pally thing going on... but I still have a hard time believing 120 dps difference was not just a fluke.
Sample size. On the Fury test you had about 40% of your Slams and Bloodthirsts crit, on the Arms test you had about 25% of your Mortal Strikes and Slams crit. On the Fury test you gained Enrage 8 times, on the Arms test 5 times. Etc. You're going to need about 20 minutes of sampling for the random elements to start smoothening out, which either means boring your healers to tears or doing a week or so of raid testing with your builds. 120 dps of difference is well within the range of a fluke for 3 minutes worth of fighting.
Edited onPatch 2.1.1
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Originally Posted by Darkrenown
Really? I mean the dmg on WW with a 1h is nothing to write home about and hamstring is less than half the rage even if you don't have any of the pvp items which reduce it, so more hits to proc WF or mongoose etc. I assume the rest of your post isn't addressed to me even though it's not seperated since it's about 2h.
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Hamstring is 63 damage for 10 rage, or 6.3 damage per rage.
Whirlwind with let's say a Gladiator's cleaver (1h Arena weapon) and 2000 AP (very low AP) would be 580 damage on average for 25 rage, or 23 damage per rage. Double, triple, quadruple the damage and efficiency where applicable.
| Sample size. On the Fury test you had about 40% of your Slams and Bloodthirsts crit, on the Arms test you had about 25% of your Mortal Strikes and Slams crit |
Last edited by Graul : 06/15/07 at 8:44 AM.
Well, after a couple of weeks of getting my ass handed to me on the damage meters, things are starting to look up for me.
I was top DPS on lurker until i pulled agro at 15% and got squished (and still got 4th). And with the....INSANELY good arena season 2 weapons, i should be seeing a BIG dps boost when i replace my fel-edged battle axe with a 97.5 dps off-hand axe. An improvement of 27 stamina and a staggering 14dps on the off-hand alone.
Looks like arena is the place to get fury weapons if you don't have SSC and The Eye on farm now.
I was top DPS on lurker until i pulled agro at 15% and got squished (and still got 4th). And with the....INSANELY good arena season 2 weapons, i should be seeing a BIG dps boost when i replace my fel-edged battle axe with a 97.5 dps off-hand axe. An improvement of 27 stamina and a staggering 14dps on the off-hand alone.
Looks like arena is the place to get fury weapons if you don't have SSC and The Eye on farm now.
I have been following this thread for some time because I have been interested in the 2H fury.
Yesterday I specd 20/41/0 to give it a try. I ran a combat logger so I could look at my combat after our Gruul kill. I found a lot of peaks and valleys with my DPS and not because of moving on the shatter. but I am happy with the crits and hard hits I do get.
My question to those that are running 2H Fury is whats your attack sequence look like? I would like a more level DPS output and I really did not have a sequence last night.
Yesterday I specd 20/41/0 to give it a try. I ran a combat logger so I could look at my combat after our Gruul kill. I found a lot of peaks and valleys with my DPS and not because of moving on the shatter. but I am happy with the crits and hard hits I do get.
My question to those that are running 2H Fury is whats your attack sequence look like? I would like a more level DPS output and I really did not have a sequence last night.
Question for those advocating a MS/WW Slam rotation for a 31/30/0. What is your dps on average? If possible give a specific fight, and please include group composition. (Lurker seems popular, I float around 900-950 on him with a resto shaman)
I am a HS (heroic strike) spammer and have tried imp slam in the past and received the similar results for more work, willing to give it another go if imp slam out shines HS by that much...
I am a HS (heroic strike) spammer and have tried imp slam in the past and received the similar results for more work, willing to give it another go if imp slam out shines HS by that much...
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Originally Posted by Graul
Go fight the servants in the blasted lands for about 20 - 30 minutes with each spec. Your DPS is obviously going to be inflated due to the level difference, but it should at least show disparity between builds.
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Also +hit gear has very low effect on those, since they are 20 levels lower
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Originally Posted by Nen
Question for those advocating a MS/WW Slam rotation for a 31/30/0. What is your dps on average? If possible give a specific fight, and please include group composition. (Lurker seems popular, I float around 900-950 on him with a resto shaman)
I am a HS (heroic strike) spammer and have tried imp slam in the past and received the similar results for more work, willing to give it another go if imp slam out shines HS by that much... |
Awww, where'd crazypie go? Looks like he bailed after the WWS showed 2h+blood frenzy > Fury.
assuming you bring say, 8 melee dps (we bring 3 war (1 being me, MT), 1 feral, 2-3 rogues, 2-3 hunters)
Our rogues do 1200+ DPS on single target non moving fights.
The rest usually around 1k or a little below
Our MS war hovers from 800-1000 DPS on single target, increases w/ multi target
To be extremely generous with the Average, lets take 950 DPS as melee dps average.
4% of 950 is 38.
38x8 = 304 DPS gained from blood frenzy
DPS war's 900dps(generous once again) + 304 blood frenzy = 1204 effective raid dps
That doesn't include the extra damage from the tank, or the extra threat he gets, (even 2% threat gained is 20 TPS, which is very nice) Based on my usual 1k+ TPS on most boss fights.
Mortal strike can also be useful on a few rare occasions.
I highly highly highly doubt any fury warrior is pulling 1200+ DPS consistently on boss fights.
Show me WWS to prove me wrong, but Crazypie you really came off as a $*#@ in this thread, and I really think you have no idea what you're talkin' about.
"1500 DPS EASILY" ... show us WWS of even over 1200 single target as Fury.
assuming you bring say, 8 melee dps (we bring 3 war (1 being me, MT), 1 feral, 2-3 rogues, 2-3 hunters)
Our rogues do 1200+ DPS on single target non moving fights.
The rest usually around 1k or a little below
Our MS war hovers from 800-1000 DPS on single target, increases w/ multi target
To be extremely generous with the Average, lets take 950 DPS as melee dps average.
4% of 950 is 38.
38x8 = 304 DPS gained from blood frenzy
DPS war's 900dps(generous once again) + 304 blood frenzy = 1204 effective raid dps
That doesn't include the extra damage from the tank, or the extra threat he gets, (even 2% threat gained is 20 TPS, which is very nice) Based on my usual 1k+ TPS on most boss fights.
Mortal strike can also be useful on a few rare occasions.
I highly highly highly doubt any fury warrior is pulling 1200+ DPS consistently on boss fights.
Show me WWS to prove me wrong, but Crazypie you really came off as a $*#@ in this thread, and I really think you have no idea what you're talkin' about.
"1500 DPS EASILY" ... show us WWS of even over 1200 single target as Fury.
Is it still wise to hamstring while bt and ww are on cooldown if you do not have a shaman in your group, or would it be better to use heroic strike or cleave in this situation? I can see hamstring as a cheap way to get flurry procs but the damage would be mediocre without having windfury to go along with it.
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Originally Posted by jugg
Is it still wise to hamstring while bt and ww are on cooldown if you do not have a shaman in your group, or would it be better to use heroic strike or cleave in this situation? I can see hamstring as a cheap way to get flurry procs but the damage would be mediocre without having windfury to go along with it.
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2H -> Slam
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Originally Posted by jugg
Is it still wise to hamstring while bt and ww are on cooldown if you do not have a shaman in your group, or would it be better to use heroic strike or cleave in this situation? I can see hamstring as a cheap way to get flurry procs but the damage would be mediocre without having windfury to go along with it.
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Originally Posted by Apate
Have you tried the Spreadsheet? there is a field that tells you which rage dump is optimal given gear, buffs, and spec., especially for dual-wielding. Actually...why are you posting that question in this thread, anyway?
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Bal, took another look, I can't seem to locate your dps on that fight, just over all damage, as lurker can go on forever, no idea what your dps is…I can assume that it was a 8-10minute kill since there is 5minutes left on your kings. 1038dps (9minute kill) with a ret pld/fdruid/restoshaman
I did notice that you got in 27 executes? Not sure if I am reading that right…I am looking at my last lurker kill and I only had 13 with 2 misses. Are you swapping to 1handers? or a swapping to a faster 2hander for the last 20%?
I did notice that you got in 27 executes? Not sure if I am reading that right…I am looking at my last lurker kill and I only had 13 with 2 misses. Are you swapping to 1handers? or a swapping to a faster 2hander for the last 20%?
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Originally Posted by Bal
DW -> Cleave
2H -> Slam |
You can, in any combat you care about your dps this much, spam heroics as far as it goes. Heroic strike has always been a great rage dump; if it's not gruul with a fury warrior offtank, leotheras, hydross, whatever-aggro-reset-boss, you can always spam heroics with little to no pain. Actually, at this level where we assume optimum conditions, people should be playing perfectly; so you might ask for a soulstone too, and not worry at all about aggro.
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Originally Posted by Plea
This thread exists cause the answer to that question isnt that simple.
You can, in any combat you care about your dps this much, spam heroics as far as it goes. Heroic strike has always been a great rage dump; if it's not gruul with a fury warrior offtank, leotheras, hydross, whatever-aggro-reset-boss, you can always spam heroics with little to no pain. Actually, at this level where we assume optimum conditions, people should be playing perfectly; so you might ask for a soulstone too, and not worry at all about aggro. |
talented, Slam adds 140 damage with a .5 second cast time for 15 rage.
talented, Cleave adds 82 damage to your Next Melee attack and attacks an additional target for 20 rage.
talented, Heroic Strike adds 208 damage to your Next Melee attack and CAUSES A HIGH AMOUNT OF THREAT for 12 rage.
Now if you go nuts spamming Heroic Strike and ensure the whole time you're below the main tank... then suddenly get a big crit string and your aggro jumps, you're losing out on much more DPS by BEING DEAD then spending a little more rage and staying low on threat.
I find I get a lot more DPS by being alive and not sucking up B-Rezes and staying fully buffed the whole fight while PACING myself and DPSing RESPONSIBLY.
Yes, we all want to top the damage meter, but much like a balance between hit - crit - AP, you need to balance rage - damage - threat.
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Originally Posted by Bal
But the answer IS that simple
talented, Slam adds 140 damage with a .5 second cast time for 15 rage. talented, Cleave adds 82 damage to your Next Melee attack and attacks an additional target for 20 rage. talented, Heroic Strike adds 208 damage to your Next Melee attack and CAUSES A HIGH AMOUNT OF THREAT for 12 rage. Now if you go nuts spamming Heroic Strike and ensure the whole time you're below the main tank... then suddenly get a big crit string and your aggro jumps, you're losing out on much more DPS by BEING DEAD then spending a little more rage and staying low on threat. I find I get a lot more DPS by being alive and not sucking up B-Rezes and staying fully buffed the whole fight while PACING myself and DPSing RESPONSIBLY. Yes, we all want to top the damage meter, but much like a balance between hit - crit - AP, you need to balance rage - damage - threat. |
Thats all right and true, but its situational and not a good reason to use cleave. Use it if you need to scale back; but by no means consider it a replacement for HS, your only limiting yourself there.
Watch KTM; if you need to trade out heroic for cleave to reduce your aggro go for it, but cleave should not be replacing HS entirely in your cycle, infact if you are getting that close to the tank you should prob hold back a bit all together.
Any dps worth their salt should be able to judge their threat levels vs the tank and know if they will be pulling aggro in a few hits or not. A "huge crit string" is not an acceptable excuse for pulling aggro. You shouldn't sit 2k threat below the MT the whole time, your just inviting disaster along.
Edit: Also would like to point out that not many fury warriors would spec for Imp Cleave, although it is a great talent for Arms/Fury.
Edited onPatch 2.1.1
Experience is the big factor with threat IMO. If you know it's virtually impossible to pull threat (like prince for example) then you can HS to your heart's content. If it's a touchy fight like tidewalker (we killed lurker last night for the first time, and got some tries on this guy) then you might want to lay off of the high agro abilities in favor of a more moderated dps ability like cleave, slam or hamstring.
On a side note: I know a lot of warriors and rogues are blacksmiths. How many of you plan on switching to armorsmith for the breastplate and just getting arena weapons? The weapons are very similar to T3 crafted stuff, and the breastplate is a nice upgrade over my doomplate chest ATM. This also allows me to pass on the T4/T5 chest and save DKP for the rings/neck/trinket i want (Silly rogues trying to steal my gear!).
On a side note: I know a lot of warriors and rogues are blacksmiths. How many of you plan on switching to armorsmith for the breastplate and just getting arena weapons? The weapons are very similar to T3 crafted stuff, and the breastplate is a nice upgrade over my doomplate chest ATM. This also allows me to pass on the T4/T5 chest and save DKP for the rings/neck/trinket i want (Silly rogues trying to steal my gear!).
Last edited by Calgar : 06/15/07 at 3:00 PM.
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Originally Posted by Surion
Thats all right and true, but its situational and not a good reason to use cleave. Use it if you need to scale back; but by no means consider it a replacement for HS, your only limiting yourself there.
Watch KTM; if you need to trade out heroic for cleave to reduce your aggro go for it, but cleave should not be replacing HS entirely in your cycle, infact if you are getting that close to the tank you should prob hold back a bit all together. Any dps worth their salt should be able to judge their threat levels vs the tank and know if they will be pulling aggro in a few hits or not. A "huge crit string" is not an acceptable excuse for pulling aggro. You shouldn't sit 2k threat below the MT the whole time, your just inviting disaster along. Edit: Also would like to point out that not many fury warriors would spec for Imp Cleave, although it is a great talent for Arms/Fury. |
Why not just use an ability that doesnt generate extra threat so that you can use it more often and end out ABOVE the damage output you would if you used HS and had to hold back once climbing the threat meter?
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Originally Posted by Plea
This thread exists cause the answer to that question isnt that simple.
You can, in any combat you care about your dps this much, spam heroics as far as it goes. Heroic strike has always been a great rage dump; if it's not gruul with a fury warrior offtank, leotheras, hydross, whatever-aggro-reset-boss, you can always spam heroics with little to no pain. Actually, at this level where we assume optimum conditions, people should be playing perfectly; so you might ask for a soulstone too, and not worry at all about aggro. |
HS does 208 damage for 15 rage + losing all the rage on your next swing. Call it a 25 rage cost for 8 DPR.
Slam does 140 + DPS * (Weapon Speed - .5 - latency) damage, which is about 900 (low estimate). It costs 15 rage + losing (.5 + latency)/weapon speed of your next swing, call it 17 rage total for 53 DPR.
So, a Slam is about 6 times as good. Without counting the fact that it lets you proc Flurry, any trinkets you happen to have, Winfury and so on an additional time, which is going to add even more damage.
I guess the basic misconception leading to anyone ever hitting HS when wielding a 2h is that the resulting number is big. And hey, if the number is big, that means the dps must be ... or not. The important thing to remember is that just because the combat log says "[You] Heroic Strike [Foo] 1000" doesn't mean you actually did 1000 damage from hitting HS. You'd have done 800 of that damage on an autoswing anyhoo, now you did 200 damage more at the cost of not getting any rage from that hit. Yay. HS is crap for 2h. Don't touch it. You should even start spamming Slam before using HS, and Slamspam is horrible DPR compared to using Slam in a timed manner.
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Originally Posted by Bal
And slowing down your DPS does nothing but set you back a couple notches in total.
Why not just use an ability that doesnt generate extra threat so that you can use it more often and end out ABOVE the damage output you would if you used HS and had to hold back once climbing the threat meter? |
The only fight I really have this kind of problem with where I need to stop my cycle is Gruul. I would assume Leotheras would have problems but we have no fought him yet. Obviously Morogrim would provide problems, luckly there are other targets available however.
But fights like Magtheridon, even Hydross' quick transitions, I haven't had the problem staying near top dps with HS going. Your hunter(s, we only ever take one-two tops) should keep MD'ing the tank, you should have Salv, unless your putting out over 1k tps consistantly with salvation running, you shouldn't have a problem, but again I would suppose that is based off of your tank.
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Originally Posted by Surion
I would suppose it depends on the fight and your particular tanks amounts of threat.
The only fight I really have this kind of problem with where I need to stop my cycle is Gruul. I would assume Leotheras would have problems but we have no fought him yet. Obviously Morogrim would provide problems, luckly there are other targets available however. But fights like Magtheridon, even Hydross' quick transitions, I haven't had the problem staying near top dps with HS going. Your hunter(s, we only ever take one-two tops) should keep MD'ing the tank, you should have Salv, unless your putting out over 1k tps consistantly with salvation running, you shouldn't have a problem, but again I would suppose that is based off of your tank. |
Perhaps you just need to work on your ability rotation so that you can achieve maximum damage:rage without using abilities that are potentially dangerous?
Yes, your threat ceiling is set by your tank. But again, an unlucky set of crits could result in your threat spiking over that of the tank.
And a dead warrior does no DPS.
Edited onPatch 2.1.1
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Originally Posted by Bal
And slowing down your DPS does nothing but set you back a couple notches in total.
Why not just use an ability that doesnt generate extra threat so that you can use it more often and end out ABOVE the damage output you would if you used HS and had to hold back once climbing the threat meter? |
So, maths incoming, what you're really doing is choosing an ability with about 33% less innate threat, but at a talented 56% lower DPR (7.7 vs 17.33.., Cleave does 154 extra damage talented, not 82). If you add the rage loss on next swing to the rage cost the DPR will look a bit different depending on how hard you hit, but HS will always cost 8 less rage and do over 120 more damage.
Another interesting perspective though is that in a threat-sensitive fight what you really want to do, when you have rage for it, is to maximize your Damage per Threat, DPT. Here you only need to look at the additional damage each attack does since the base damage is the same anyway.
Cleave: 154 damage for 130 threat => 1.18 DPT
Heroic Strike: 208 damage for 196 threat => 1.06 DPT
So, while Cleave does 26% less damage per swing and that at 56% lower damage per rage, you do 11% more damage per threat. This means that in most situations HS is the clear winner between the two and even on threat-sensitive fights you can do very slightly more damage per rage while being much more inefficient.
Edit: Hamstring generates extra threat too, removed bad statement which assumed it didn't.
Last edited by Avin : 06/17/07 at 12:08 AM.
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Originally Posted by Avin
Cleave: 154 damage for 130 threat => 1.18 DPT
Heroic Strike: 208 damage for 196 threat => 1.06 DPT |
The EJ thread seems to be wrong, http://evilempireguild.org/guides/kenco2.php supports WoWWiki's data and was last updated yesterday. The important thing still is that Cleave has quite a bit of innate threat.
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Originally Posted by Gronx
I've been wondering about exactly that problem, the heroic strike threat vs damage issue, that we even now, as dual wield dps warriors, runs into.
[SKIP the wall of text] |
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Originally Posted by Bal
Like the damage meter I posted earlier says, I have no problem getting #1 DPS without using a single heroic strike. So if that's possible (which it more than obviously is) why would you even want to RISK the additional threat?
Perhaps you just need to work on your ability rotation so that you can achieve maximum damage:rage without using abilities that are potentially dangerous? Yes, your threat ceiling is set by your tank. But again, an unlucky set of crits could result in your threat spiking over that of the tank. And a dead warrior does no DPS. |
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Originally Posted by Bal
Like the damage meter I posted earlier says, I have no problem getting #1 DPS without using a single heroic strike.
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Originally Posted by Bal
Like the damage meter I posted earlier says, I have no problem getting #1 DPS without using a single heroic strike. So if that's possible (which it more than obviously is) why would you even want to RISK the additional threat?
Perhaps you just need to work on your ability rotation so that you can achieve maximum damage:rage without using abilities that are potentially dangerous? Yes, your threat ceiling is set by your tank. But again, an unlucky set of crits could result in your threat spiking over that of the tank. And a dead warrior does no DPS. |
When tanking multiple mobs cleave gives better tps than heroic strike, but I don't replace my heroic strike button with cleave when I tank more than one mob. I just hit my cleave button instead. Same goes for dps purposes; instead of totally replacing your heroic strike, better think of a more dynamic method. I guarantee that you will not lose your top dps spot.
If an unlucky crit string is so dangerous, then stay 2 crit strings behind the tank. In theory such condition exists I agree; however, I never died to an "unlucky string of crits". But I never faced an undead whose wotf is on cooldown either.
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Originally Posted by Dynalisia
I don't really understand why people keep bringing this up as an arguement. The first thing such a relative statement like this makes me think is that your guild's DPS are underperforming, not that you are elite. Am I wrong in thinking this, or how do you figure?
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Also, my total damage is up there. If that is less than what the top 5 in most guilds usually produce then yes, my guild's DPS is lacking.
@ Plea: Aggro is like a Hippopotamus. People love looking at it, but more people in Africa are killed each year by Hippos than by Alligators.
So you can say you aren't afraid of aggro, but if you don't respect it you'll get burned.
Err. He's a 2H warrior. Heroic Strike has absolutely no use for him. A HS is 208 damage for 15 rage + swing gain, which is 10 DPR if we're being excessively nice.
Spamming Slam without waiting for autoattacks between attacks, the crappiest way to spend rage in the game that's actually been used by anyone, will do DPS * (speed - 1.5 - latency), say 400 damage as we're being nasty here, for 15 rage + ( 1.5 + latency)/speed * swing gain, say 23 rage to again be nasty. Which means that even a horribly used Slam is still 17 DPR, and Slamspam is definitely enough rage out to spend anything you can possibly gain as a dps'er.
HS is a possible choice for DW in situations when they're limited by GC rather than rage or threat. For a 2h user Slam is a strictly better choice than HS in any fight that allows you to stand still for ½ a second at regular intervals, which effectively means HS is never at any point relevant. Toss it, it really makes no difference.
Spamming Slam without waiting for autoattacks between attacks, the crappiest way to spend rage in the game that's actually been used by anyone, will do DPS * (speed - 1.5 - latency), say 400 damage as we're being nasty here, for 15 rage + ( 1.5 + latency)/speed * swing gain, say 23 rage to again be nasty. Which means that even a horribly used Slam is still 17 DPR, and Slamspam is definitely enough rage out to spend anything you can possibly gain as a dps'er.
HS is a possible choice for DW in situations when they're limited by GC rather than rage or threat. For a 2h user Slam is a strictly better choice than HS in any fight that allows you to stand still for ½ a second at regular intervals, which effectively means HS is never at any point relevant. Toss it, it really makes no difference.
There are very few encounters where you can stay close enough to a tank on threat to be able to die from a few crits, I can't even think of one. It really only applies on encounters with adds, such as lurker (I usually switch add at 50% so I can go all out all the time) where tanks can't build enough threat in such a short time. Tell me, which encounters are you having problems with? I can't really think of one I can't go full out all the time on (after tank getting misdirected and hitting a shield slam in the beginning). I have never replaced heroic strike with cleave on a single target and I very rarely die from overaggro on a boss.
Here is a question that has probably already been answered elsewhere, but since we are talking about Heroic Strike and TPS/DPT I'll ask here. Now I am under the assumption that when you crit a HS, it's the total damage done x 200% (220%), but what about the innate threat portion of the ability, does it remain static and only the actual damage portion is doubled? It doesn't really matter that much for me right now, because unflasked and without trinket procs and such, I am rarely, if ever in a situation where rage is so free flowing that it I can just "Heroic Spam".
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Originally Posted by Xerophyte
Err. He's a 2H warrior. Heroic Strike has absolutely no use for him. A HS is 208 damage for 15 rage + swing gain, which is 10 DPR if we're being excessively nice.
Spamming Slam without waiting for autoattacks between attacks, the crappiest way to spend rage in the game that's actually been used by anyone, will do DPS * (speed - 1.5 - latency), say 400 damage as we're being nasty here, for 15 rage + ( 1.5 + latency)/speed * swing gain, say 23 rage to again be nasty. Which means that even a horribly used Slam is still 17 DPR, and Slamspam is definitely enough rage out to spend anything you can possibly gain as a dps'er. HS is a possible choice for DW in situations when they're limited by GC rather than rage or threat. For a 2h user Slam is a strictly better choice than HS in any fight that allows you to stand still for ½ a second at regular intervals, which effectively means HS is never at any point relevant. Toss it, it really makes no difference. |
Edited onPatch 2.1.1
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Originally Posted by svagftw
There are very few encounters where you can stay close enough to a tank on threat to be able to die from a few crits, I can't even think of one. It really only applies on encounters with adds, such as lurker (I usually switch add at 50% so I can go all out all the time) where tanks can't build enough threat in such a short time. Tell me, which encounters are you having problems with? I can't really think of one I can't go full out all the time on (after tank getting misdirected and hitting a shield slam in the beginning). I have never replaced heroic strike with cleave on a single target and I very rarely die from overaggro on a boss.
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As an addendum: on any fight where aggro is a potential concern to the extent where I feel that a large number of people would have to hold back due to limited TPS generated by tanks or whatever, I throw a shaman in the tanking group. There's effectively no way of pulling aggro off of that on Gruul or Void Reaver w/ a Heroism+Windfuried tanking group.
Last edited by Teez : 06/16/07 at 8:08 AM. Reason: small addition
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Originally Posted by ikillyouheal
@Animosityftw: Group setups? Heroism rotations?
Maybe it's because our maintank is a dodgefreak, but I'm constantly a slave under my TPS, he only does 400-550tps on most fights. |
Thought I'd reply to this again for warriors having a difficult time with DPS. After working hard to perfect my DPS cycles, I effectively jumped over 100 DPS this week. I posted before having only hit around 760 DPS on the Magtheridon encounter, but this week I was hovering at 900 DPS before execute range which I died(21%) due to an unlucky cleave. I easily could have broke 1000, and this is with 0 gear upgrades from the 760 night. What it came down to was perfecting the DPS cycles, while also paying less attention to the raid(I'm raidleader O.O). I didn't think working on cycles alone could upgrade damage by 20%, but it turns out I was wrong!
Remember that Magtheridon has vulnerable phases which skew the data a bit. As for the topic I feel warriors are somewhat where they should be. We do respectable DPS (I manage around 900-1000 DPS on most fight) but are limited by threat. This is justified by our ability to off-tank and group-buff.
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Originally Posted by woo-haa
Remember that Magtheridon has vulnerable phases which skew the data a bit. As for the topic I feel warriors are somewhat where they should be. We do respectable DPS (I manage around 900-1000 DPS on most fight) but are limited by threat. This is justified by our ability to off-tank and group-buff.
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Walking that fine line between effective dps and dead is key, in my opinion. And it'll be interesting to what spec people go for as Season2 rolls around and more plate gear drops from raid instances.
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Originally Posted by Animosityftw
Thought I'd reply to this again for warriors having a difficult time with DPS. After working hard to perfect my DPS cycles, I effectively jumped over 100 DPS this week. I posted before having only hit around 760 DPS on the Magtheridon encounter, but this week I was hovering at 900 DPS before execute range which I died(21%) due to an unlucky cleave. I easily could have broke 1000, and this is with 0 gear upgrades from the 760 night. What it came down to was perfecting the DPS cycles, while also paying less attention to the raid(I'm raidleader O.O). I didn't think working on cycles alone could upgrade damage by 20%, but it turns out I was wrong!
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My basic priority order goes something like this (please feel free to critique).
1/ Bloodthirst – For me this is #1 priority. I'll always try to make sure I have free rage and GCD for when the CD comes up on BT.
2/ Whirlwind – It may not be great dmg, but its still an instant (for flurry, mongoose procs) and does the dmg of a MH swing (but yellow!), with no extra threat/rage loss.
3/ Hamstring – If I have spare rage and GCD free ill consider hamstring. I only tend to use this when I have a shaman or flurry has dropped off, otherwise I skip hamstring.
4/ Heroic Strike – Unless threat is an issue, I just start spamming HS when i'm above 40ish rage.
With no TM at the moment I rarely overpower. The exception would be when I get a bad streak and I'm left with low rage and no flurry (usually I switch stance on OP if I get an OH & MH miss/dodge/parry and BT/WW are unavailable. Its I nice way to get flurry back up and running with 1/2 Overpower.
Rampage I tend to refresh slightly early (when it gets below <10 seconds and I have a GCD free). I try and avoid letting it drop off (or leaving it too late and having to use rampage instead of another instant that’s come off cooldown.
I choose to refresh BS every minute (on the off chance a rogue was out of range when I did the last one). So they would have to be out of range twice in a row for BS to drop off … its just too big of a dps upgrade to rogues to risk them loosing it.
Been a busy few weeks with Vashj attempts and working on Al'ar, but I've finally been able to get an enhancement shaman in a group on a random gruul kill. Raid was screwing around pretty hard and nobody was potted, and the casters had pretty crappy group synergy that night, but here's the WWS anyway:
http://lossendil.com/wws/?report=wwlevi5521fxs&s=54-381
While gazing at the KTM, the druid offtank was generating a good 750-800 TPS. I think I have a screenshot of it that I'll try to post later, but anyway either my salv ran out or I got into melee range too early after a ground slam and I ate a hateful around 60%ish? I got battle rez'd a bit later and just continued to do my normal thing. Overall, an average raid performance but we get things done.
I wish I could post a magtheridon kill but I click cube 3 which is a mile and a half away and I have to tank the 2nd add which makes the fight useless. I also tank priest add in Fathomlord and have to do assist with adds on Morogrim which really sucks :\.
Hopefully, I can get some more screenshots with a flask/food/stone on and an enhancement shaman in the raid eventually.
http://lossendil.com/wws/?report=wwlevi5521fxs&s=54-381
While gazing at the KTM, the druid offtank was generating a good 750-800 TPS. I think I have a screenshot of it that I'll try to post later, but anyway either my salv ran out or I got into melee range too early after a ground slam and I ate a hateful around 60%ish? I got battle rez'd a bit later and just continued to do my normal thing. Overall, an average raid performance but we get things done.
I wish I could post a magtheridon kill but I click cube 3 which is a mile and a half away and I have to tank the 2nd add which makes the fight useless. I also tank priest add in Fathomlord and have to do assist with adds on Morogrim which really sucks :\.
Hopefully, I can get some more screenshots with a flask/food/stone on and an enhancement shaman in the raid eventually.
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Originally Posted by woo-haa
Remember that Magtheridon has vulnerable phases which skew the data a bit. As for the topic I feel warriors are somewhat where they should be. We do respectable DPS (I manage around 900-1000 DPS on most fight) but are limited by threat. This is justified by our ability to off-tank and group-buff.
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Originally Posted by Tiburon11
I agree that our dps is fine. I just wish we had some sort of group support beyond battle or commanding shout that would make us more valuable in a raid than the one melee group position normally given to us.
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Originally Posted by Tiburon11
I just wish we had some sort of group support beyond battle or commanding shout that would make us more valuable in a raid than the one melee group position normally given to us.
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Edited onPatch 2.1.2
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Originally Posted by Protspec
Awww, where'd crazypie go? Looks like he bailed after the WWS showed 2h+blood frenzy > Fury.
assuming you bring say, 8 melee dps (we bring 3 war (1 being me, MT), 1 feral, 2-3 rogues, 2-3 hunters) Our rogues do 1200+ DPS on single target non moving fights. The rest usually around 1k or a little below Our MS war hovers from 800-1000 DPS on single target, increases w/ multi target To be extremely generous with the Average, lets take 950 DPS as melee dps average. 4% of 950 is 38. 38x8 = 304 DPS gained from blood frenzy DPS war's 900dps(generous once again) + 304 blood frenzy = 1204 effective raid dps That doesn't include the extra damage from the tank, or the extra threat he gets, (even 2% threat gained is 20 TPS, which is very nice) Based on my usual 1k+ TPS on most boss fights. Mortal strike can also be useful on a few rare occasions. I highly highly highly doubt any fury warrior is pulling 1200+ DPS consistently on boss fights. Show me WWS to prove me wrong, but Crazypie you really came off as a $*#@ in this thread, and I really think you have no idea what you're talkin' about. "1500 DPS EASILY" ... show us WWS of even over 1200 single target as Fury. |
I'm sorry if I can't plan my raids around this board to make sure you always have a WWS up for your entertainment, but go ahead and look at the WWS I posted.
You might think blood frenzy is nice and all but how often is there a situation where you can do nothing but continuously wail on a boss with all of your 8 physical dps continuously putting your debuff to use? And what if there is a raid situation where you have no windfury while using a 2hander? And what if you happen to not bring 8 physical dps? How will your damage stack up in that situation? I have atleast posted a thread on the nihilum forum where blood frenzy did not make up the difference in damage done, and it was on a fight where dps is consistent on the boss.
You can barely put blood frenzy to use on Lady Vashj in phase 2, some bosses are immune to bleed and Al'ar cannot be melee'd for half the fight. If Blood Frenzy was such a fantastic debuff, why wouldn't you see a larger amount of MS warriors in high end raiding?
On a different note, there was a useful post on the warrior forums pertaining to a gear list for dw fury warriors. The point allocation is a bit strange but it's still useful. Kind of rare to find useful stuff on the warrior board.
http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/th...11711211&sid=1
1 Crit Rating = 4.55 points
1 Agility = 3.125 points
1 Haste Rating = 6.465 points
1 Hit Rating = 3.91 points
1 Strength = 8 points
1 AP = 4 points
I have the feeling it's overrating hit and underrating crit but I have yet to read the explanation so I won't pass judgement yet.
Last edited by Crazypie : 06/19/07 at 4:31 PM.
Forgive me if this is covered elsewhere in this thread, but what's currently better for PvE with a 31/30 build- Sword Spec or Axe spec? The spreadsheet only really models DW, and I'm not really sure if 2.1 Sword spec's current incarnation is modeled either.
I realize they're changing it again in 2.1.2, but making it white damage again shouldn't make that big of a difference in the long run on their relative strength, should it?
I realize they're changing it again in 2.1.2, but making it white damage again shouldn't make that big of a difference in the long run on their relative strength, should it?
Edited onPatch 2.1.2
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Originally Posted by Chimp
Out of interest what did you change?
My basic priority order goes something like this (please feel free to critique). 1/ Bloodthirst – For me this is #1 priority. I'll always try to make sure I have free rage and GCD for when the CD comes up on BT. 2/ Whirlwind – It may not be great dmg, but its still an instant (for flurry, mongoose procs) and does the dmg of a MH swing (but yellow!), with no extra threat/rage loss. 3/ Hamstring – If I have spare rage and GCD free ill consider hamstring. I only tend to use this when I have a shaman or flurry has dropped off, otherwise I skip hamstring. 4/ Heroic Strike – Unless threat is an issue, I just start spamming HS when i'm above 40ish rage. With no TM at the moment I rarely overpower. The exception would be when I get a bad streak and I'm left with low rage and no flurry (usually I switch stance on OP if I get an OH & MH miss/dodge/parry and BT/WW are unavailable. Its I nice way to get flurry back up and running with 1/2 Overpower. Rampage I tend to refresh slightly early (when it gets below <10 seconds and I have a GCD free). I try and avoid letting it drop off (or leaving it too late and having to use rampage instead of another instant that’s come off cooldown. I choose to refresh BS every minute (on the off chance a rogue was out of range when I did the last one). So they would have to be out of range twice in a row for BS to drop off … its just too big of a dps upgrade to rogues to risk them loosing it. |
Last edited by Animosityftw : 06/19/07 at 5:03 PM. Reason: clarification
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Originally Posted by Surion
I would suppose it depends on the fight and your particular tanks amounts of threat.
The only fight I really have this kind of problem with where I need to stop my cycle is Gruul. I would assume Leotheras would have problems but we have no fought him yet. Obviously Morogrim would provide problems, luckly there are other targets available however. But fights like Magtheridon, even Hydross' quick transitions, I haven't had the problem staying near top dps with HS going. Your hunter(s, we only ever take one-two tops) should keep MD'ing the tank, you should have Salv, unless your putting out over 1k tps consistantly with salvation running, you shouldn't have a problem, but again I would suppose that is based off of your tank. |
Perhaps you just need to work on your ability rotation so that you can achieve maximum damage:rage without using abilities that are potentially dangerous?
Yes, your threat ceiling is set by your tank. But again, an unlucky set of crits could result in your threat spiking over that of the tank.
And a dead warrior does no DPS.
Edited onPatch 2.1.1
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Originally Posted by Bal
And slowing down your DPS does nothing but set you back a couple notches in total.
Why not just use an ability that doesnt generate extra threat so that you can use it more often and end out ABOVE the damage output you would if you used HS and had to hold back once climbing the threat meter? |
So, maths incoming, what you're really doing is choosing an ability with about 33% less innate threat, but at a talented 56% lower DPR (7.7 vs 17.33.., Cleave does 154 extra damage talented, not 82). If you add the rage loss on next swing to the rage cost the DPR will look a bit different depending on how hard you hit, but HS will always cost 8 less rage and do over 120 more damage.
Another interesting perspective though is that in a threat-sensitive fight what you really want to do, when you have rage for it, is to maximize your Damage per Threat, DPT. Here you only need to look at the additional damage each attack does since the base damage is the same anyway.
Cleave: 154 damage for 130 threat => 1.18 DPT
Heroic Strike: 208 damage for 196 threat => 1.06 DPT
So, while Cleave does 26% less damage per swing and that at 56% lower damage per rage, you do 11% more damage per threat. This means that in most situations HS is the clear winner between the two and even on threat-sensitive fights you can do very slightly more damage per rage while being much more inefficient.
Edit: Hamstring generates extra threat too, removed bad statement which assumed it didn't.
Last edited by Avin : 06/17/07 at 12:08 AM.
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Originally Posted by Avin
Cleave: 154 damage for 130 threat => 1.18 DPT
Heroic Strike: 208 damage for 196 threat => 1.06 DPT |
The EJ thread seems to be wrong, http://evilempireguild.org/guides/kenco2.php supports WoWWiki's data and was last updated yesterday. The important thing still is that Cleave has quite a bit of innate threat.
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Originally Posted by Gronx
I've been wondering about exactly that problem, the heroic strike threat vs damage issue, that we even now, as dual wield dps warriors, runs into.
[SKIP the wall of text] |
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Originally Posted by Bal
Like the damage meter I posted earlier says, I have no problem getting #1 DPS without using a single heroic strike. So if that's possible (which it more than obviously is) why would you even want to RISK the additional threat?
Perhaps you just need to work on your ability rotation so that you can achieve maximum damage:rage without using abilities that are potentially dangerous? Yes, your threat ceiling is set by your tank. But again, an unlucky set of crits could result in your threat spiking over that of the tank. And a dead warrior does no DPS. |
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Originally Posted by Bal
Like the damage meter I posted earlier says, I have no problem getting #1 DPS without using a single heroic strike.
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Originally Posted by Bal
Like the damage meter I posted earlier says, I have no problem getting #1 DPS without using a single heroic strike. So if that's possible (which it more than obviously is) why would you even want to RISK the additional threat?
Perhaps you just need to work on your ability rotation so that you can achieve maximum damage:rage without using abilities that are potentially dangerous? Yes, your threat ceiling is set by your tank. But again, an unlucky set of crits could result in your threat spiking over that of the tank. And a dead warrior does no DPS. |
When tanking multiple mobs cleave gives better tps than heroic strike, but I don't replace my heroic strike button with cleave when I tank more than one mob. I just hit my cleave button instead. Same goes for dps purposes; instead of totally replacing your heroic strike, better think of a more dynamic method. I guarantee that you will not lose your top dps spot.
If an unlucky crit string is so dangerous, then stay 2 crit strings behind the tank. In theory such condition exists I agree; however, I never died to an "unlucky string of crits". But I never faced an undead whose wotf is on cooldown either.
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Originally Posted by Dynalisia
I don't really understand why people keep bringing this up as an arguement. The first thing such a relative statement like this makes me think is that your guild's DPS are underperforming, not that you are elite. Am I wrong in thinking this, or how do you figure?
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Also, my total damage is up there. If that is less than what the top 5 in most guilds usually produce then yes, my guild's DPS is lacking.
@ Plea: Aggro is like a Hippopotamus. People love looking at it, but more people in Africa are killed each year by Hippos than by Alligators.
So you can say you aren't afraid of aggro, but if you don't respect it you'll get burned.
Err. He's a 2H warrior. Heroic Strike has absolutely no use for him. A HS is 208 damage for 15 rage + swing gain, which is 10 DPR if we're being excessively nice.
Spamming Slam without waiting for autoattacks between attacks, the crappiest way to spend rage in the game that's actually been used by anyone, will do DPS * (speed - 1.5 - latency), say 400 damage as we're being nasty here, for 15 rage + ( 1.5 + latency)/speed * swing gain, say 23 rage to again be nasty. Which means that even a horribly used Slam is still 17 DPR, and Slamspam is definitely enough rage out to spend anything you can possibly gain as a dps'er.
HS is a possible choice for DW in situations when they're limited by GC rather than rage or threat. For a 2h user Slam is a strictly better choice than HS in any fight that allows you to stand still for ½ a second at regular intervals, which effectively means HS is never at any point relevant. Toss it, it really makes no difference.
Spamming Slam without waiting for autoattacks between attacks, the crappiest way to spend rage in the game that's actually been used by anyone, will do DPS * (speed - 1.5 - latency), say 400 damage as we're being nasty here, for 15 rage + ( 1.5 + latency)/speed * swing gain, say 23 rage to again be nasty. Which means that even a horribly used Slam is still 17 DPR, and Slamspam is definitely enough rage out to spend anything you can possibly gain as a dps'er.
HS is a possible choice for DW in situations when they're limited by GC rather than rage or threat. For a 2h user Slam is a strictly better choice than HS in any fight that allows you to stand still for ½ a second at regular intervals, which effectively means HS is never at any point relevant. Toss it, it really makes no difference.
There are very few encounters where you can stay close enough to a tank on threat to be able to die from a few crits, I can't even think of one. It really only applies on encounters with adds, such as lurker (I usually switch add at 50% so I can go all out all the time) where tanks can't build enough threat in such a short time. Tell me, which encounters are you having problems with? I can't really think of one I can't go full out all the time on (after tank getting misdirected and hitting a shield slam in the beginning). I have never replaced heroic strike with cleave on a single target and I very rarely die from overaggro on a boss.
Here is a question that has probably already been answered elsewhere, but since we are talking about Heroic Strike and TPS/DPT I'll ask here. Now I am under the assumption that when you crit a HS, it's the total damage done x 200% (220%), but what about the innate threat portion of the ability, does it remain static and only the actual damage portion is doubled? It doesn't really matter that much for me right now, because unflasked and without trinket procs and such, I am rarely, if ever in a situation where rage is so free flowing that it I can just "Heroic Spam".
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Originally Posted by Xerophyte
Err. He's a 2H warrior. Heroic Strike has absolutely no use for him. A HS is 208 damage for 15 rage + swing gain, which is 10 DPR if we're being excessively nice.
Spamming Slam without waiting for autoattacks between attacks, the crappiest way to spend rage in the game that's actually been used by anyone, will do DPS * (speed - 1.5 - latency), say 400 damage as we're being nasty here, for 15 rage + ( 1.5 + latency)/speed * swing gain, say 23 rage to again be nasty. Which means that even a horribly used Slam is still 17 DPR, and Slamspam is definitely enough rage out to spend anything you can possibly gain as a dps'er. HS is a possible choice for DW in situations when they're limited by GC rather than rage or threat. For a 2h user Slam is a strictly better choice than HS in any fight that allows you to stand still for ½ a second at regular intervals, which effectively means HS is never at any point relevant. Toss it, it really makes no difference. |
Edited onPatch 2.1.1
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Originally Posted by svagftw
There are very few encounters where you can stay close enough to a tank on threat to be able to die from a few crits, I can't even think of one. It really only applies on encounters with adds, such as lurker (I usually switch add at 50% so I can go all out all the time) where tanks can't build enough threat in such a short time. Tell me, which encounters are you having problems with? I can't really think of one I can't go full out all the time on (after tank getting misdirected and hitting a shield slam in the beginning). I have never replaced heroic strike with cleave on a single target and I very rarely die from overaggro on a boss.
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As an addendum: on any fight where aggro is a potential concern to the extent where I feel that a large number of people would have to hold back due to limited TPS generated by tanks or whatever, I throw a shaman in the tanking group. There's effectively no way of pulling aggro off of that on Gruul or Void Reaver w/ a Heroism+Windfuried tanking group.
Last edited by Teez : 06/16/07 at 8:08 AM. Reason: small addition
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Originally Posted by ikillyouheal
@Animosityftw: Group setups? Heroism rotations?
Maybe it's because our maintank is a dodgefreak, but I'm constantly a slave under my TPS, he only does 400-550tps on most fights. |
Thought I'd reply to this again for warriors having a difficult time with DPS. After working hard to perfect my DPS cycles, I effectively jumped over 100 DPS this week. I posted before having only hit around 760 DPS on the Magtheridon encounter, but this week I was hovering at 900 DPS before execute range which I died(21%) due to an unlucky cleave. I easily could have broke 1000, and this is with 0 gear upgrades from the 760 night. What it came down to was perfecting the DPS cycles, while also paying less attention to the raid(I'm raidleader O.O). I didn't think working on cycles alone could upgrade damage by 20%, but it turns out I was wrong!
Remember that Magtheridon has vulnerable phases which skew the data a bit. As for the topic I feel warriors are somewhat where they should be. We do respectable DPS (I manage around 900-1000 DPS on most fight) but are limited by threat. This is justified by our ability to off-tank and group-buff.
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Originally Posted by woo-haa
Remember that Magtheridon has vulnerable phases which skew the data a bit. As for the topic I feel warriors are somewhat where they should be. We do respectable DPS (I manage around 900-1000 DPS on most fight) but are limited by threat. This is justified by our ability to off-tank and group-buff.
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Walking that fine line between effective dps and dead is key, in my opinion. And it'll be interesting to what spec people go for as Season2 rolls around and more plate gear drops from raid instances.
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Originally Posted by Animosityftw
Thought I'd reply to this again for warriors having a difficult time with DPS. After working hard to perfect my DPS cycles, I effectively jumped over 100 DPS this week. I posted before having only hit around 760 DPS on the Magtheridon encounter, but this week I was hovering at 900 DPS before execute range which I died(21%) due to an unlucky cleave. I easily could have broke 1000, and this is with 0 gear upgrades from the 760 night. What it came down to was perfecting the DPS cycles, while also paying less attention to the raid(I'm raidleader O.O). I didn't think working on cycles alone could upgrade damage by 20%, but it turns out I was wrong!
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My basic priority order goes something like this (please feel free to critique).
1/ Bloodthirst – For me this is #1 priority. I'll always try to make sure I have free rage and GCD for when the CD comes up on BT.
2/ Whirlwind – It may not be great dmg, but its still an instant (for flurry, mongoose procs) and does the dmg of a MH swing (but yellow!), with no extra threat/rage loss.
3/ Hamstring – If I have spare rage and GCD free ill consider hamstring. I only tend to use this when I have a shaman or flurry has dropped off, otherwise I skip hamstring.
4/ Heroic Strike – Unless threat is an issue, I just start spamming HS when i'm above 40ish rage.
With no TM at the moment I rarely overpower. The exception would be when I get a bad streak and I'm left with low rage and no flurry (usually I switch stance on OP if I get an OH & MH miss/dodge/parry and BT/WW are unavailable. Its I nice way to get flurry back up and running with 1/2 Overpower.
Rampage I tend to refresh slightly early (when it gets below <10 seconds and I have a GCD free). I try and avoid letting it drop off (or leaving it too late and having to use rampage instead of another instant that’s come off cooldown.
I choose to refresh BS every minute (on the off chance a rogue was out of range when I did the last one). So they would have to be out of range twice in a row for BS to drop off … its just too big of a dps upgrade to rogues to risk them loosing it.
Been a busy few weeks with Vashj attempts and working on Al'ar, but I've finally been able to get an enhancement shaman in a group on a random gruul kill. Raid was screwing around pretty hard and nobody was potted, and the casters had pretty crappy group synergy that night, but here's the WWS anyway:
http://lossendil.com/wws/?report=wwlevi5521fxs&s=54-381
While gazing at the KTM, the druid offtank was generating a good 750-800 TPS. I think I have a screenshot of it that I'll try to post later, but anyway either my salv ran out or I got into melee range too early after a ground slam and I ate a hateful around 60%ish? I got battle rez'd a bit later and just continued to do my normal thing. Overall, an average raid performance but we get things done.
I wish I could post a magtheridon kill but I click cube 3 which is a mile and a half away and I have to tank the 2nd add which makes the fight useless. I also tank priest add in Fathomlord and have to do assist with adds on Morogrim which really sucks :\.
Hopefully, I can get some more screenshots with a flask/food/stone on and an enhancement shaman in the raid eventually.
http://lossendil.com/wws/?report=wwlevi5521fxs&s=54-381
While gazing at the KTM, the druid offtank was generating a good 750-800 TPS. I think I have a screenshot of it that I'll try to post later, but anyway either my salv ran out or I got into melee range too early after a ground slam and I ate a hateful around 60%ish? I got battle rez'd a bit later and just continued to do my normal thing. Overall, an average raid performance but we get things done.
I wish I could post a magtheridon kill but I click cube 3 which is a mile and a half away and I have to tank the 2nd add which makes the fight useless. I also tank priest add in Fathomlord and have to do assist with adds on Morogrim which really sucks :\.
Hopefully, I can get some more screenshots with a flask/food/stone on and an enhancement shaman in the raid eventually.
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Originally Posted by woo-haa
Remember that Magtheridon has vulnerable phases which skew the data a bit. As for the topic I feel warriors are somewhat where they should be. We do respectable DPS (I manage around 900-1000 DPS on most fight) but are limited by threat. This is justified by our ability to off-tank and group-buff.
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Originally Posted by Tiburon11
I agree that our dps is fine. I just wish we had some sort of group support beyond battle or commanding shout that would make us more valuable in a raid than the one melee group position normally given to us.
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Originally Posted by Tiburon11
I just wish we had some sort of group support beyond battle or commanding shout that would make us more valuable in a raid than the one melee group position normally given to us.
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Edited onPatch 2.1.2
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Originally Posted by Protspec
Awww, where'd crazypie go? Looks like he bailed after the WWS showed 2h+blood frenzy > Fury.
assuming you bring say, 8 melee dps (we bring 3 war (1 being me, MT), 1 feral, 2-3 rogues, 2-3 hunters) Our rogues do 1200+ DPS on single target non moving fights. The rest usually around 1k or a little below Our MS war hovers from 800-1000 DPS on single target, increases w/ multi target To be extremely generous with the Average, lets take 950 DPS as melee dps average. 4% of 950 is 38. 38x8 = 304 DPS gained from blood frenzy DPS war's 900dps(generous once again) + 304 blood frenzy = 1204 effective raid dps That doesn't include the extra damage from the tank, or the extra threat he gets, (even 2% threat gained is 20 TPS, which is very nice) Based on my usual 1k+ TPS on most boss fights. Mortal strike can also be useful on a few rare occasions. I highly highly highly doubt any fury warrior is pulling 1200+ DPS consistently on boss fights. Show me WWS to prove me wrong, but Crazypie you really came off as a $*#@ in this thread, and I really think you have no idea what you're talkin' about. "1500 DPS EASILY" ... show us WWS of even over 1200 single target as Fury. |
I'm sorry if I can't plan my raids around this board to make sure you always have a WWS up for your entertainment, but go ahead and look at the WWS I posted.
You might think blood frenzy is nice and all but how often is there a situation where you can do nothing but continuously wail on a boss with all of your 8 physical dps continuously putting your debuff to use? And what if there is a raid situation where you have no windfury while using a 2hander? And what if you happen to not bring 8 physical dps? How will your damage stack up in that situation? I have atleast posted a thread on the nihilum forum where blood frenzy did not make up the difference in damage done, and it was on a fight where dps is consistent on the boss.
You can barely put blood frenzy to use on Lady Vashj in phase 2, some bosses are immune to bleed and Al'ar cannot be melee'd for half the fight. If Blood Frenzy was such a fantastic debuff, why wouldn't you see a larger amount of MS warriors in high end raiding?
On a different note, there was a useful post on the warrior forums pertaining to a gear list for dw fury warriors. The point allocation is a bit strange but it's still useful. Kind of rare to find useful stuff on the warrior board.
http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/th...11711211&sid=1
1 Crit Rating = 4.55 points
1 Agility = 3.125 points
1 Haste Rating = 6.465 points
1 Hit Rating = 3.91 points
1 Strength = 8 points
1 AP = 4 points
I have the feeling it's overrating hit and underrating crit but I have yet to read the explanation so I won't pass judgement yet.
Last edited by Crazypie : 06/19/07 at 4:31 PM.
Forgive me if this is covered elsewhere in this thread, but what's currently better for PvE with a 31/30 build- Sword Spec or Axe spec? The spreadsheet only really models DW, and I'm not really sure if 2.1 Sword spec's current incarnation is modeled either.
I realize they're changing it again in 2.1.2, but making it white damage again shouldn't make that big of a difference in the long run on their relative strength, should it?
I realize they're changing it again in 2.1.2, but making it white damage again shouldn't make that big of a difference in the long run on their relative strength, should it?
Edited onPatch 2.1.2
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Originally Posted by Chimp
Out of interest what did you change?
My basic priority order goes something like this (please feel free to critique). 1/ Bloodthirst – For me this is #1 priority. I'll always try to make sure I have free rage and GCD for when the CD comes up on BT. 2/ Whirlwind – It may not be great dmg, but its still an instant (for flurry, mongoose procs) and does the dmg of a MH swing (but yellow!), with no extra threat/rage loss. 3/ Hamstring – If I have spare rage and GCD free ill consider hamstring. I only tend to use this when I have a shaman or flurry has dropped off, otherwise I skip hamstring. 4/ Heroic Strike – Unless threat is an issue, I just start spamming HS when i'm above 40ish rage. With no TM at the moment I rarely overpower. The exception would be when I get a bad streak and I'm left with low rage and no flurry (usually I switch stance on OP if I get an OH & MH miss/dodge/parry and BT/WW are unavailable. Its I nice way to get flurry back up and running with 1/2 Overpower. Rampage I tend to refresh slightly early (when it gets below <10 seconds and I have a GCD free). I try and avoid letting it drop off (or leaving it too late and having to use rampage instead of another instant that’s come off cooldown. I choose to refresh BS every minute (on the off chance a rogue was out of range when I did the last one). So they would have to be out of range twice in a row for BS to drop off … its just too big of a dps upgrade to rogues to risk them loosing it. |
Last edited by Animosityftw : 06/19/07 at 5:03 PM. Reason: clarification
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Originally Posted by Crazypie
I'm sorry if I can't plan my raids around this board to make sure you always have a WWS up for your entertainment, but go ahead and look at the WWS I posted.
You might think blood frenzy is nice and all but how often is there a situation where you can do nothing but continuously wail on a boss with all of your 8 physical dps continuously putting your debuff to use? And what if there is a raid situation where you have no windfury while using a 2hander? And what if you happen to not bring 8 physical dps? How will your damage stack up in that situation? I have atleast posted a thread on the nihilum forum where blood frenzy did not make up the difference in damage done, and it was on a fight where dps is consistent on the boss. You can barely put blood frenzy to use on Lady Vashj in phase 2, some bosses are immune to bleed and Al'ar cannot be melee'd for half the fight. If Blood Frenzy was such a fantastic debuff, why wouldn't you see a larger amount of MS warriors in high end raiding? |
All anyone really said was, in a best case scenario, it could be viable build for a dps warrior. Noone did any math making claims past this point, and I don't really think many people would want too.
I'm glad you posted on some other forum, there are many wws parses available in a number of locations for your digest either way. I don't know what you are looking for, I think that we're not going to get a definitive answer, there just isn't one. Is fury viable raid dps? Usually. Is arms viable raid dps? Sometimes. Group buffs that both 'need' to excel are very similair, a dps warrior without WF is never as good as one with.
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Originally Posted by Crazypie
http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/th...11711211&sid=1 1 Crit Rating = 4.55 points 1 Agility = 3.125 points 1 Haste Rating = 6.465 points 1 Hit Rating = 3.91 points 1 Strength = 8 points 1 AP = 4 points I have the feeling it's overrating hit and underrating crit but I have yet to read the explanation so I won't pass judgement yet. |
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Originally Posted by Dralmoo
Forgive me if this is covered elsewhere in this thread, but what's currently better for PvE with a 31/30 build- Sword Spec or Axe spec? The spreadsheet only really models DW, and I'm not really sure if 2.1 Sword spec's current incarnation is modeled either.
I realize they're changing it again in 2.1.2, but making it white damage again shouldn't make that big of a difference in the long run on their relative strength, should it? |
I'd go axe regardless simply because it doesn't make the same gawd awful clacking noise swords do.
Edited onPatch 2.1.2
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Originally Posted by Asmik
I don't think anyone was making the wildly fantastic claims you're attributing to them.
All anyone really said was, in a best case scenario, it could be viable build for a dps warrior. Noone did any math making claims past this point, and I don't really think many people would want too. I'm glad you posted on some other forum, there are many wws parses available in a number of locations for your digest either way. I don't know what you are looking for, I think that we're not going to get a definitive answer, there just isn't one. Is fury viable raid dps? Usually. Is arms viable raid dps? Sometimes. Group buffs that both 'need' to excel are very similair, a dps warrior without WF is never as good as one with. |
In regards to the combat ratings system, the one created by Theesa is a lot different from the one on the Warrior DPS Spreadsheet. I'll put up the ratings in a bit, but the key differences in the two are the effects of raid buffs due to BoK, and the "opinion" of which is a stronger stat, hit rating or crit rating.
From just opening up the DPS War SS, you get the point layout:
Agil - .7
Str - 1
AP - .41
Hit - .59
Crit - .94
Now I'm not quite sure how to choose which is in fact, the stronger rating system. The one on the spreadsheet seems to make a bit more sense to me as it doesn't quite value hit as much as crit. However, it seems to value agil quite a bit as well which I don't necessarily agree with, but I can understand why it'd be like that because of BoK.
Last edited by Crazypie : 06/19/07 at 5:45 PM.
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Originally Posted by Crazypie
You might think blood frenzy is nice and all but how often is there a situation where you can do nothing but continuously wail on a boss with all of your 8 physical dps continuously putting your debuff to use? And what if there is a raid situation where you have no windfury while using a 2hander? And what if you happen to not bring 8 physical dps? How will your damage stack up in that situation? I have atleast posted a thread on the nihilum forum where blood frenzy did not make up the difference in damage done, and it was on a fight where dps is consistent on the boss. You can barely put blood frenzy to use on Lady Vashj in phase 2, some bosses are immune to bleed and Al'ar cannot be melee'd for half the fight. If Blood Frenzy was such a fantastic debuff, why wouldn't you see a larger amount of MS warriors in high end raiding? |
Yes elementals in ph2 of lady vashj don't take the bleeding debuff, but doesn't help the higher burst damage of a MS warrior to kill them faster?
Another example: if you have to OT as dps warrior a BF specced warriors still can provide a very valuable debuff for the raid (in addition to 5% more threat compared to a fury warrior).
I think this list could be extended endlessly in both directions, but the points is: we are theorycrafting here and in theory if your raid is hacking on a target dummy BF + arms spec dps equals approximately full fury warrior dps.
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Originally Posted by Crazypie
If Blood Frenzy was such a fantastic debuff, why wouldn't you see a larger amount of MS warriors in high end raiding?
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Originally Posted by Nezralix
Because (1) "DW IZ 4 PVE DPS!!!" is pretty much the most quoted line on the WoW warrior forums, (2) people always tend to underestimate raid-wide buffs/debuffs, and (3) a lot of people prefer to be the one making the most use of the buffs rather than giving them.
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In terms of raid wide buffing, I see a fair share of survival hunters and expose weakness is one of the strongest raid wide buffs in the game.
In terms of who likes to give and get buffs, I guess it's all relative to your experience. There are a ton of enhancement shamans on my server and aren't they pretty much the epitome of melee buffing? Maybe it could be the desire to dps as well, but nobody knows for sure.
Now in terms of the use of blood frenzy, how often does an MS warrior have the need to tank? And what mobs do an ms warrior tank that melee dps actually hit? Maybe Al'ar, and depending on your guild's tank choices Kael/Fathom, but one only tanks the add for a limited amount of time and I'd be surprised if the amount of dps gained from blood frenzy reached the tens of thousands.
Again, this is rather a pointless discussion, because one will always search for an exception. It is of my OPINION, that target switching, bleed immunity, and lack of a shaman will be the downfall of MS warrior viability. If you bring an MS war to your raid, more power to you. It won't make a significant difference.
| In fact, it'd be hard to actually find a warrior who has cleared SSC or even stepped foot in SSC, on the warrior board. |
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Originally Posted by Crazypie
It is of my OPINION, that target switching, bleed immunity, and lack of a shaman will be the downfall of MS warrior viability. If you bring an MS war to your raid, more power to you. It won't make a significant difference.
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Edited onPatch 2.1.2
http://www.lossendil.com/wws/?report...f3rma5&s=0-410
Fathom-Lord Karathress kill from tonight. Nearly sustained 1000 DPS as an Arms Warrior (pvp spec with imp slam). I could have easily broken 1100 DPS had I used Recklessness, and probably even more if I was pure PvE 2h spec. My gear also slacking (I only have 3 T5 quality items, the rest are gladiator loot or karazhan items).
Couple of things to note:
- I tanked the shaman from 20%->dead (druid tank died), had to use shield wall there.
- healing is a bit off due to combat log range issues (DPS isn't).
- Deeyouwhy had rez sickness and was the kick bitch on the priest.
- I was mostly slam spamming, but using MS and Whirlwind as rage-dumps.
- My group make-up was Rogue/Rogue/RestoShaman/FeralDrood
Conclusion: After struggling with arms DPS spec for weeks, I've found what truly makes the difference: WINDFURY. This was the difference between me doing 500 DPS, and nearly 1000. With the constant procs granting me extra rage, I'm able to spam slam and MS nearly constantly with rage droughts here and there.
I was also 4th on Leotheras, and 7th on Lurker (died at 20% though). Arms PvE DPS is very, very viable
.
Fathom-Lord Karathress kill from tonight. Nearly sustained 1000 DPS as an Arms Warrior (pvp spec with imp slam). I could have easily broken 1100 DPS had I used Recklessness, and probably even more if I was pure PvE 2h spec. My gear also slacking (I only have 3 T5 quality items, the rest are gladiator loot or karazhan items).
Couple of things to note:
- I tanked the shaman from 20%->dead (druid tank died), had to use shield wall there.
- healing is a bit off due to combat log range issues (DPS isn't).
- Deeyouwhy had rez sickness and was the kick bitch on the priest.
- I was mostly slam spamming, but using MS and Whirlwind as rage-dumps.
- My group make-up was Rogue/Rogue/RestoShaman/FeralDrood
Conclusion: After struggling with arms DPS spec for weeks, I've found what truly makes the difference: WINDFURY. This was the difference between me doing 500 DPS, and nearly 1000. With the constant procs granting me extra rage, I'm able to spam slam and MS nearly constantly with rage droughts here and there.
I was also 4th on Leotheras, and 7th on Lurker (died at 20% though). Arms PvE DPS is very, very viable
.Last edited by Gokey : 06/20/07 at 4:41 AM.
| I've found what truly makes the difference: WINDFURY |
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Originally Posted by Gokey
http://www.lossendil.com/wws/?report...f3rma5&s=0-410
Fathom-Lord Karathress kill from tonight. Nearly sustained 1000 DPS as an Arms Warrior (pvp spec with imp slam). I could have easily broken 1100 DPS had I used Recklessness, and probably even more if I was pure PvE 2h spec. My gear also slacking (I only have 3 T5 quality items, the rest are gladiator loot or karazhan items). Couple of things to note: - I tanked the shaman from 20%->dead (druid tank died), had to use shield wall there. - healing is a bit off due to combat log range issues (DPS isn't). - Deeyouwhy had rez sickness and was the kick bitch on the priest. - I was mostly slam spamming, but using MS and Whirlwind as rage-dumps. - My group make-up was Rogue/Rogue/RestoShaman/FeralDrood Conclusion: After struggling with arms DPS spec for weeks, I've found what truly makes the difference: WINDFURY. This was the difference between me doing 500 DPS, and nearly 1000. With the constant procs granting me extra rage, I'm able to spam slam and MS nearly constantly with rage droughts here and there. I was also 4th on Leotheras, and 7th on Lurker (died at 20% though). Arms PvE DPS is very, very viable . |
I have to say I'm really tempted to spec 2h fury though, but then I have no MS and I'll be useless at farming the new arena season gear.
Your average Slam would have to come out to ~1387 to match Imp Execute DPR, and that is if your Slam landed less than .5 seconds after your auto attack. Doesn't seem too hard to do if you are perfect at timing your Slams with any of the crafted weapons and 2950 or so AP. (Imp) Slam easily beats vanilla Execute. Slam is very powerful, and scales extremely well. The problem though is that you really want stationary targets. If your target moves at all, it can really hurt your DPS badly.
For a PURE PvE MS/Slam spec, should there be any variant to: http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=pV0xdAio0zzZVV0VMgoV ?
This assumes that someone else in the raid has Blood Frenzy.
This assumes that someone else in the raid has Blood Frenzy.
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Originally Posted by Graul
The problem though is that you really want stationary targets. If your target moves at all, it can really hurt your DPS badly.
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Originally Posted by Gokey
http://www.lossendil.com/wws/?report...f3rma5&s=0-410
Fathom-Lord Karathress kill from tonight. Nearly sustained 1000 DPS as an Arms Warrior (pvp spec with imp slam). I could have easily broken 1100 DPS had I used Recklessness, and probably even more if I was pure PvE 2h spec. My gear also slacking (I only have 3 T5 quality items, the rest are gladiator loot or karazhan items). Couple of things to note: - I tanked the shaman from 20%->dead (druid tank died), had to use shield wall there. - healing is a bit off due to combat log range issues (DPS isn't). - Deeyouwhy had rez sickness and was the kick bitch on the priest. - I was mostly slam spamming, but using MS and Whirlwind as rage-dumps. - My group make-up was Rogue/Rogue/RestoShaman/FeralDrood Conclusion: After struggling with arms DPS spec for weeks, I've found what truly makes the difference: WINDFURY. This was the difference between me doing 500 DPS, and nearly 1000. With the constant procs granting me extra rage, I'm able to spam slam and MS nearly constantly with rage droughts here and there. I was also 4th on Leotheras, and 7th on Lurker (died at 20% though). Arms PvE DPS is very, very viable . |
I don't know what your kill order is, but I recommend tanking the Shaman and Hunter adds closer together for Blade Flurry/Whirlwind/Multishot/etc.
(If you already do, shame on Elude for not taking advantage.)
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Originally Posted by dr_AllCOM3
You can always fall back to MS/WW spam. That's good DPS for moving targets as it comes in bursts.
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Is this possible?
Hey guys, ive been messing around with a spec that tries and abuses a warriors sword spec while dual weilding and i think ive come up with a decent one here.
http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/info/...00000000000000
Im just wondering what you guys think of it, and basically just curious if its worth it or if i should just go deeper fury for rampage/imp zerker stance.
Also if this spec is a good one, what would i need to build besides hit? im thinking crit more than AP just so flurry stays on and to get more damage from sword spec, but AP may be better more more damage per swing.
Currently im using Latros and edge of the cosmos, but im wondering if faster swords would be better for this build. im trying to buy a blinkstrike to MH but the only one i know of is quite out of my price range and i dont wanna buy something i wont use.
http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/info/...00000000000000
Im just wondering what you guys think of it, and basically just curious if its worth it or if i should just go deeper fury for rampage/imp zerker stance.
Also if this spec is a good one, what would i need to build besides hit? im thinking crit more than AP just so flurry stays on and to get more damage from sword spec, but AP may be better more more damage per swing.
Currently im using Latros and edge of the cosmos, but im wondering if faster swords would be better for this build. im trying to buy a blinkstrike to MH but the only one i know of is quite out of my price range and i dont wanna buy something i wont use.
for a 31/30 2h arms build, i think the 12agi, 3% increased crit damage meta gem followed by a lot of crit gems would be the way to go. makes it so that you don't have a yellow gem limit that 12crit meta requires so you actually gain more crit with that meta. the meta's second stat greatly benefits this route as well. and talent-wise, you gain a lot from crit, more dps than str imo (not tested yet though). flurry, deep wounds, impale, sweeping strike, and sword spec and wf (extra attacks criting is what i mean with these) all benefit from crit.
speaking of extra attacks, stacking crit theoretically raises your dps exponentially. say for example you have 20% crit with sword spec. sword spec's 5% chance to proc an extra attack has a 20% chance to crit when it procs, so sword spec actually gains you a whole 1% crit (5% * 20% = 1%) behind the scenes, thus increasing your total dps by approximately 1%. at 40% crit, you gain 2% crit. these are just examples and can get extremely beneficial when throwing WF and more crit in there.
fully raid geared and buffed, i think ~45% crit is obtainable by a 2h sword spec'd warrior. so sword spec and wf give you a 35% chance to gain an extra attack. 35%*45%=15.75% extra crit. also, since sword spec can proc off of WF attack and vise versa, depending on which one proc'd before, you keep chain multiplying the %'s. my math kinda stops after the first extra attack, but i'm sure you guys get the idea.
anyone wanna second-check my theorycrafting and math just to make sure? lol i don't want to pick the crit-central route and realize i've made a mistake. thx.
speaking of extra attacks, stacking crit theoretically raises your dps exponentially. say for example you have 20% crit with sword spec. sword spec's 5% chance to proc an extra attack has a 20% chance to crit when it procs, so sword spec actually gains you a whole 1% crit (5% * 20% = 1%) behind the scenes, thus increasing your total dps by approximately 1%. at 40% crit, you gain 2% crit. these are just examples and can get extremely beneficial when throwing WF and more crit in there.
fully raid geared and buffed, i think ~45% crit is obtainable by a 2h sword spec'd warrior. so sword spec and wf give you a 35% chance to gain an extra attack. 35%*45%=15.75% extra crit. also, since sword spec can proc off of WF attack and vise versa, depending on which one proc'd before, you keep chain multiplying the %'s. my math kinda stops after the first extra attack, but i'm sure you guys get the idea.
anyone wanna second-check my theorycrafting and math just to make sure? lol i don't want to pick the crit-central route and realize i've made a mistake. thx.
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Originally Posted by Trazhenko
I don't know what your kill order is, but I recommend tanking the Shaman and Hunter adds closer together for Blade Flurry/Whirlwind/Multishot/etc.
(If you already do, shame on Elude for not taking advantage.) |
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Originally Posted by Gokey
For a PURE PvE MS/Slam spec, should there be any variant to: http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=pV0xdAio0zzZVV0VMgoV ?
This assumes that someone else in the raid has Blood Frenzy. |
also in reply to the stat focus thing, this i my current gear setup for pve: http://armory.wow-europe.com/#charac...+Dawn&n=Laknor which means, without the flask approx 38,5% crit(zerker stance), and 1700 AP. Raidbuffed this translates into 45ish crit, with feral druid buff, and 2kish AP. Seeing as my crit is sort of ok right now i'm trying to get my AP over 1800 AP, at which point i think i'm fairly well balanced.
i do have a question though for those MS warriors using Blood Frenzy in their build. Do you think it's worth keeping the 3/5 flurry or spend those points in imp MS?
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Hi, new member here nice site been reading it for a while but wanted to make a post as the people here seem to know alot more than the general public on the wow site.
My question is this for a human fury warrior i want to purchase either a mace or sword to take advantage of the +5 weapon skill.
Next week I will have enough arena points to get my main hand weapon followed by my oh in a couple of weeks.
So the stats for the mace and sword are pretty similar been the top end damage is higher on the mace over the sword but the low end is adjusted so ineffect the mace has different low end damage.
So what I would like to know is there any dps advantage in pure pve situations only take one over the other?
(sword)
Merciless Gladiator's Slicer
Binds when picked up
One-HandSword
203-305 DmgSpeed 2.60
(97.7 damage per second)
+27 Stamina
Durability: 105 / 105
Requires Level 70
Equip: Improves hit rating by 10.
Equip: Improves critical strike rating by 19.
Equip: Improves your resilience rating by 12.
Equip: Increases attack power by 30.
Vs (Mace)
Merciless Gladiator's Pummeler
Binds when picked up
One-HandMace
177-330 DmgSpeed 2.60
(97.5 damage per second)
+27 Stamina
Durability: 105 / 105
Requires Level 70
Equip: Improves hit rating by 10.
Equip: Improves critical strike rating by 19.
Equip: Improves your resilience rating by 12.
Equip: Increases attack power by 30.
Hi, new member here nice site been reading it for a while but wanted to make a post as the people here seem to know alot more than the general public on the wow site.
My question is this for a human fury warrior i want to purchase either a mace or sword to take advantage of the +5 weapon skill.
Next week I will have enough arena points to get my main hand weapon followed by my oh in a couple of weeks.
So the stats for the mace and sword are pretty similar been the top end damage is higher on the mace over the sword but the low end is adjusted so ineffect the mace has different low end damage.
So what I would like to know is there any dps advantage in pure pve situations only take one over the other?
(sword)
Merciless Gladiator's Slicer
Binds when picked up
One-HandSword
203-305 DmgSpeed 2.60
(97.7 damage per second)
+27 Stamina
Durability: 105 / 105
Requires Level 70
Equip: Improves hit rating by 10.
Equip: Improves critical strike rating by 19.
Equip: Improves your resilience rating by 12.
Equip: Increases attack power by 30.
Vs (Mace)
Merciless Gladiator's Pummeler
Binds when picked up
One-HandMace
177-330 DmgSpeed 2.60
(97.5 damage per second)
+27 Stamina
Durability: 105 / 105
Requires Level 70
Equip: Improves hit rating by 10.
Equip: Improves critical strike rating by 19.
Equip: Improves your resilience rating by 12.
Equip: Increases attack power by 30.
The sword has .2 more dps at the same speed. Ergo, the sword does more damage on average and is preferable. Not by much, but still.
Generally top end and low end damage are not interesting values. Look at speed and dps, not the damage range.
Generally top end and low end damage are not interesting values. Look at speed and dps, not the damage range.
Edited onPatch 2.1.2
While we are on the subject of Arena weapons (I cannot get the spreadsheet to work with OppenOffice and no one has actually told me how to enable or disable feedback), how exactly is off hand damage calculated? Is it weapon + AP x 50% (62%) or Weapon + (AP x 50%/62%)? I want to get a better off hand than my current...if there really is a true upgrade through Arena weapons. I'm currently using:
Malchazeen
One-Hand Dagger
132 - 199 Damage Speed 1.80
(91.9 damage per second)
+16 Stamina
Equip: Improves hit rating by 15.
Equip: Increases attack power by 50.
The only option I would consider replacing it with would be:
Merciless Gladiator's Hacker
Off Hand Axe
102 - 191 Damage Speed 1.50
(97.7 damage per second)
+27 Stamina
Equip: Improves hit rating by 10.
Equip: Improves critical strike rating by 19.
Equip: Improves your resilience rating by 12.
Equip: Increases attack power by 30.
But I would most likely go with the 1.8 speed version. Is +5.8 physical DPS (then toss in the off hand penalty) actually going to see any real increase in damage? I'd also be gaining 0.86% crit while losing 22 AP and 0.33% hit. Then toss in the orc racial of +5 axe skill, which at this point, I have absolutely no idea what it does. Is it +0.04% hit/crit -dodge, -parry per point or +0.2% per point? Char sheet shows it adding 0.04% crit at least. Does it increase hit/crit even more vs lvl 73 mobs? It doesn't seem like anyone has it completely figured out yet.
I'm not against grinding Arena to get one of these at all, but I'd like to think I would be gaining a real upgrade other than just more hit points. Plus, I have this wierd aversion to ever lowering AP when possible. I also do not want to drop lower than 15% hit, but again, I do not know exactly how much +5 skill will contribute to that, and it doesn't seem to reflect in the hit rating value.
Malchazeen
One-Hand Dagger
132 - 199 Damage Speed 1.80
(91.9 damage per second)
+16 Stamina
Equip: Improves hit rating by 15.
Equip: Increases attack power by 50.
The only option I would consider replacing it with would be:
Merciless Gladiator's Hacker
Off Hand Axe
102 - 191 Damage Speed 1.50
(97.7 damage per second)
+27 Stamina
Equip: Improves hit rating by 10.
Equip: Improves critical strike rating by 19.
Equip: Improves your resilience rating by 12.
Equip: Increases attack power by 30.
But I would most likely go with the 1.8 speed version. Is +5.8 physical DPS (then toss in the off hand penalty) actually going to see any real increase in damage? I'd also be gaining 0.86% crit while losing 22 AP and 0.33% hit. Then toss in the orc racial of +5 axe skill, which at this point, I have absolutely no idea what it does. Is it +0.04% hit/crit -dodge, -parry per point or +0.2% per point? Char sheet shows it adding 0.04% crit at least. Does it increase hit/crit even more vs lvl 73 mobs? It doesn't seem like anyone has it completely figured out yet.
I'm not against grinding Arena to get one of these at all, but I'd like to think I would be gaining a real upgrade other than just more hit points. Plus, I have this wierd aversion to ever lowering AP when possible. I also do not want to drop lower than 15% hit, but again, I do not know exactly how much +5 skill will contribute to that, and it doesn't seem to reflect in the hit rating value.
Last edited by Graul : 06/22/07 at 4:12 AM.
Can't comment on the weapon skill thing, as i play undead, and from the current itemization and effect of +weapon skill...i just ignore it.
I was faced with a similar situation as you Graul. I decided to go with the Gladiator axe for a few reasons.
1. It IS higher dps, significantly more so then my old fel-edged battleaxe i had previously.
2. It's an axe....using daggers just feels wrong. Plus, i don't have to piss off any rogues over melch, when i could be pissing them off over the ring of lethality or trinket offa leo.
3. It looks hella cool, and the....vibrant green glow from +20 str doesn't show on it. Saving my sanity greatly. Walking around like a big green light bulb really bothered me.
Now, for you, would it be a big, or even noticeable upgrade? I'd wager it wouldn't make more then a half of a percent difference one way or another.
My current plan to is to have the main-hand and off-hand gladiator weapons, and switch from weaponsmith to armor, and get the T3 crafted breastplate. That's a much better setup for me then using the crafted T3 weapon and doomplate chest IMO. This has the added bonus of giving me something like 75-80 more stamina, so i can cheap out on stamina on all my other gear and stack straight AP/crit/hit.
On a similar topic. What are you all using as back pieces? I'm still using the cloak out of Shadow labs (Inciter's) I'm sad to say. I've been looking to get the drape of the dark reavers off of Aran, but he hasn't dropped it in over 3 months. The other thought i had was a vengeance wrap with a +8 str gem. It's something like 32 more ap and 10 more CR, but i give up 15 sta (which i dont mind) and 10 hit rating (which i do kinda mind)
I was faced with a similar situation as you Graul. I decided to go with the Gladiator axe for a few reasons.
1. It IS higher dps, significantly more so then my old fel-edged battleaxe i had previously.
2. It's an axe....using daggers just feels wrong. Plus, i don't have to piss off any rogues over melch, when i could be pissing them off over the ring of lethality or trinket offa leo.
3. It looks hella cool, and the....vibrant green glow from +20 str doesn't show on it. Saving my sanity greatly. Walking around like a big green light bulb really bothered me.
Now, for you, would it be a big, or even noticeable upgrade? I'd wager it wouldn't make more then a half of a percent difference one way or another.
My current plan to is to have the main-hand and off-hand gladiator weapons, and switch from weaponsmith to armor, and get the T3 crafted breastplate. That's a much better setup for me then using the crafted T3 weapon and doomplate chest IMO. This has the added bonus of giving me something like 75-80 more stamina, so i can cheap out on stamina on all my other gear and stack straight AP/crit/hit.
On a similar topic. What are you all using as back pieces? I'm still using the cloak out of Shadow labs (Inciter's) I'm sad to say. I've been looking to get the drape of the dark reavers off of Aran, but he hasn't dropped it in over 3 months. The other thought i had was a vengeance wrap with a +8 str gem. It's something like 32 more ap and 10 more CR, but i give up 15 sta (which i dont mind) and 10 hit rating (which i do kinda mind)
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Originally Posted by Crazypie
I'm sorry if I can't plan my raids around this board to make sure you always have a WWS up for your entertainment, but go ahead and look at the WWS I posted.
You might think blood frenzy is nice and all but how often is there a situation where you can do nothing but continuously wail on a boss with all of your 8 physical dps continuously putting your debuff to use? And what if there is a raid situation where you have no windfury while using a 2hander? And what if you happen to not bring 8 physical dps? How will your damage stack up in that situation? I have atleast posted a thread on the nihilum forum where blood frenzy did not make up the difference in damage done, and it was on a fight where dps is consistent on the boss. You can barely put blood frenzy to use on Lady Vashj in phase 2, some bosses are immune to bleed and Al'ar cannot be melee'd for half the fight. If Blood Frenzy was such a fantastic debuff, why wouldn't you see a larger amount of MS warriors in high end raiding? |
All anyone really said was, in a best case scenario, it could be viable build for a dps warrior. Noone did any math making claims past this point, and I don't really think many people would want too.
I'm glad you posted on some other forum, there are many wws parses available in a number of locations for your digest either way. I don't know what you are looking for, I think that we're not going to get a definitive answer, there just isn't one. Is fury viable raid dps? Usually. Is arms viable raid dps? Sometimes. Group buffs that both 'need' to excel are very similair, a dps warrior without WF is never as good as one with.
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Originally Posted by Crazypie
http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/th...11711211&sid=1 1 Crit Rating = 4.55 points 1 Agility = 3.125 points 1 Haste Rating = 6.465 points 1 Hit Rating = 3.91 points 1 Strength = 8 points 1 AP = 4 points I have the feeling it's overrating hit and underrating crit but I have yet to read the explanation so I won't pass judgement yet. |
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Originally Posted by Dralmoo
Forgive me if this is covered elsewhere in this thread, but what's currently better for PvE with a 31/30 build- Sword Spec or Axe spec? The spreadsheet only really models DW, and I'm not really sure if 2.1 Sword spec's current incarnation is modeled either.
I realize they're changing it again in 2.1.2, but making it white damage again shouldn't make that big of a difference in the long run on their relative strength, should it? |
I'd go axe regardless simply because it doesn't make the same gawd awful clacking noise swords do.
Edited onPatch 2.1.2
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Originally Posted by Asmik
I don't think anyone was making the wildly fantastic claims you're attributing to them.
All anyone really said was, in a best case scenario, it could be viable build for a dps warrior. Noone did any math making claims past this point, and I don't really think many people would want too. I'm glad you posted on some other forum, there are many wws parses available in a number of locations for your digest either way. I don't know what you are looking for, I think that we're not going to get a definitive answer, there just isn't one. Is fury viable raid dps? Usually. Is arms viable raid dps? Sometimes. Group buffs that both 'need' to excel are very similair, a dps warrior without WF is never as good as one with. |
In regards to the combat ratings system, the one created by Theesa is a lot different from the one on the Warrior DPS Spreadsheet. I'll put up the ratings in a bit, but the key differences in the two are the effects of raid buffs due to BoK, and the "opinion" of which is a stronger stat, hit rating or crit rating.
From just opening up the DPS War SS, you get the point layout:
Agil - .7
Str - 1
AP - .41
Hit - .59
Crit - .94
Now I'm not quite sure how to choose which is in fact, the stronger rating system. The one on the spreadsheet seems to make a bit more sense to me as it doesn't quite value hit as much as crit. However, it seems to value agil quite a bit as well which I don't necessarily agree with, but I can understand why it'd be like that because of BoK.
Last edited by Crazypie : 06/19/07 at 5:45 PM.
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Originally Posted by Crazypie
You might think blood frenzy is nice and all but how often is there a situation where you can do nothing but continuously wail on a boss with all of your 8 physical dps continuously putting your debuff to use? And what if there is a raid situation where you have no windfury while using a 2hander? And what if you happen to not bring 8 physical dps? How will your damage stack up in that situation? I have atleast posted a thread on the nihilum forum where blood frenzy did not make up the difference in damage done, and it was on a fight where dps is consistent on the boss. You can barely put blood frenzy to use on Lady Vashj in phase 2, some bosses are immune to bleed and Al'ar cannot be melee'd for half the fight. If Blood Frenzy was such a fantastic debuff, why wouldn't you see a larger amount of MS warriors in high end raiding? |
Yes elementals in ph2 of lady vashj don't take the bleeding debuff, but doesn't help the higher burst damage of a MS warrior to kill them faster?
Another example: if you have to OT as dps warrior a BF specced warriors still can provide a very valuable debuff for the raid (in addition to 5% more threat compared to a fury warrior).
I think this list could be extended endlessly in both directions, but the points is: we are theorycrafting here and in theory if your raid is hacking on a target dummy BF + arms spec dps equals approximately full fury warrior dps.
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Originally Posted by Crazypie
If Blood Frenzy was such a fantastic debuff, why wouldn't you see a larger amount of MS warriors in high end raiding?
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Originally Posted by Nezralix
Because (1) "DW IZ 4 PVE DPS!!!" is pretty much the most quoted line on the WoW warrior forums, (2) people always tend to underestimate raid-wide buffs/debuffs, and (3) a lot of people prefer to be the one making the most use of the buffs rather than giving them.
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In terms of raid wide buffing, I see a fair share of survival hunters and expose weakness is one of the strongest raid wide buffs in the game.
In terms of who likes to give and get buffs, I guess it's all relative to your experience. There are a ton of enhancement shamans on my server and aren't they pretty much the epitome of melee buffing? Maybe it could be the desire to dps as well, but nobody knows for sure.
Now in terms of the use of blood frenzy, how often does an MS warrior have the need to tank? And what mobs do an ms warrior tank that melee dps actually hit? Maybe Al'ar, and depending on your guild's tank choices Kael/Fathom, but one only tanks the add for a limited amount of time and I'd be surprised if the amount of dps gained from blood frenzy reached the tens of thousands.
Again, this is rather a pointless discussion, because one will always search for an exception. It is of my OPINION, that target switching, bleed immunity, and lack of a shaman will be the downfall of MS warrior viability. If you bring an MS war to your raid, more power to you. It won't make a significant difference.
| In fact, it'd be hard to actually find a warrior who has cleared SSC or even stepped foot in SSC, on the warrior board. |
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Originally Posted by Crazypie
It is of my OPINION, that target switching, bleed immunity, and lack of a shaman will be the downfall of MS warrior viability. If you bring an MS war to your raid, more power to you. It won't make a significant difference.
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Edited onPatch 2.1.2
http://www.lossendil.com/wws/?report...f3rma5&s=0-410
Fathom-Lord Karathress kill from tonight. Nearly sustained 1000 DPS as an Arms Warrior (pvp spec with imp slam). I could have easily broken 1100 DPS had I used Recklessness, and probably even more if I was pure PvE 2h spec. My gear also slacking (I only have 3 T5 quality items, the rest are gladiator loot or karazhan items).
Couple of things to note:
- I tanked the shaman from 20%->dead (druid tank died), had to use shield wall there.
- healing is a bit off due to combat log range issues (DPS isn't).
- Deeyouwhy had rez sickness and was the kick bitch on the priest.
- I was mostly slam spamming, but using MS and Whirlwind as rage-dumps.
- My group make-up was Rogue/Rogue/RestoShaman/FeralDrood
Conclusion: After struggling with arms DPS spec for weeks, I've found what truly makes the difference: WINDFURY. This was the difference between me doing 500 DPS, and nearly 1000. With the constant procs granting me extra rage, I'm able to spam slam and MS nearly constantly with rage droughts here and there.
I was also 4th on Leotheras, and 7th on Lurker (died at 20% though). Arms PvE DPS is very, very viable.
Fathom-Lord Karathress kill from tonight. Nearly sustained 1000 DPS as an Arms Warrior (pvp spec with imp slam). I could have easily broken 1100 DPS had I used Recklessness, and probably even more if I was pure PvE 2h spec. My gear also slacking (I only have 3 T5 quality items, the rest are gladiator loot or karazhan items).
Couple of things to note:
- I tanked the shaman from 20%->dead (druid tank died), had to use shield wall there.
- healing is a bit off due to combat log range issues (DPS isn't).
- Deeyouwhy had rez sickness and was the kick bitch on the priest.
- I was mostly slam spamming, but using MS and Whirlwind as rage-dumps.
- My group make-up was Rogue/Rogue/RestoShaman/FeralDrood
Conclusion: After struggling with arms DPS spec for weeks, I've found what truly makes the difference: WINDFURY. This was the difference between me doing 500 DPS, and nearly 1000. With the constant procs granting me extra rage, I'm able to spam slam and MS nearly constantly with rage droughts here and there.
I was also 4th on Leotheras, and 7th on Lurker (died at 20% though). Arms PvE DPS is very, very viable
.Last edited by Gokey : 06/20/07 at 4:41 AM.
| I've found what truly makes the difference: WINDFURY |
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Originally Posted by Gokey
http://www.lossendil.com/wws/?report...f3rma5&s=0-410
Fathom-Lord Karathress kill from tonight. Nearly sustained 1000 DPS as an Arms Warrior (pvp spec with imp slam). I could have easily broken 1100 DPS had I used Recklessness, and probably even more if I was pure PvE 2h spec. My gear also slacking (I only have 3 T5 quality items, the rest are gladiator loot or karazhan items). Couple of things to note: - I tanked the shaman from 20%->dead (druid tank died), had to use shield wall there. - healing is a bit off due to combat log range issues (DPS isn't). - Deeyouwhy had rez sickness and was the kick bitch on the priest. - I was mostly slam spamming, but using MS and Whirlwind as rage-dumps. - My group make-up was Rogue/Rogue/RestoShaman/FeralDrood Conclusion: After struggling with arms DPS spec for weeks, I've found what truly makes the difference: WINDFURY. This was the difference between me doing 500 DPS, and nearly 1000. With the constant procs granting me extra rage, I'm able to spam slam and MS nearly constantly with rage droughts here and there. I was also 4th on Leotheras, and 7th on Lurker (died at 20% though). Arms PvE DPS is very, very viable . |
I have to say I'm really tempted to spec 2h fury though, but then I have no MS and I'll be useless at farming the new arena season gear.
Your average Slam would have to come out to ~1387 to match Imp Execute DPR, and that is if your Slam landed less than .5 seconds after your auto attack. Doesn't seem too hard to do if you are perfect at timing your Slams with any of the crafted weapons and 2950 or so AP. (Imp) Slam easily beats vanilla Execute. Slam is very powerful, and scales extremely well. The problem though is that you really want stationary targets. If your target moves at all, it can really hurt your DPS badly.
For a PURE PvE MS/Slam spec, should there be any variant to: http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=pV0xdAio0zzZVV0VMgoV ?
This assumes that someone else in the raid has Blood Frenzy.
This assumes that someone else in the raid has Blood Frenzy.
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Originally Posted by Graul
The problem though is that you really want stationary targets. If your target moves at all, it can really hurt your DPS badly.
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Originally Posted by Gokey
http://www.lossendil.com/wws/?report...f3rma5&s=0-410
Fathom-Lord Karathress kill from tonight. Nearly sustained 1000 DPS as an Arms Warrior (pvp spec with imp slam). I could have easily broken 1100 DPS had I used Recklessness, and probably even more if I was pure PvE 2h spec. My gear also slacking (I only have 3 T5 quality items, the rest are gladiator loot or karazhan items). Couple of things to note: - I tanked the shaman from 20%->dead (druid tank died), had to use shield wall there. - healing is a bit off due to combat log range issues (DPS isn't). - Deeyouwhy had rez sickness and was the kick bitch on the priest. - I was mostly slam spamming, but using MS and Whirlwind as rage-dumps. - My group make-up was Rogue/Rogue/RestoShaman/FeralDrood Conclusion: After struggling with arms DPS spec for weeks, I've found what truly makes the difference: WINDFURY. This was the difference between me doing 500 DPS, and nearly 1000. With the constant procs granting me extra rage, I'm able to spam slam and MS nearly constantly with rage droughts here and there. I was also 4th on Leotheras, and 7th on Lurker (died at 20% though). Arms PvE DPS is very, very viable . |
I don't know what your kill order is, but I recommend tanking the Shaman and Hunter adds closer together for Blade Flurry/Whirlwind/Multishot/etc.
(If you already do, shame on Elude for not taking advantage.)
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Originally Posted by dr_AllCOM3
You can always fall back to MS/WW spam. That's good DPS for moving targets as it comes in bursts.
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Is this possible?
Hey guys, ive been messing around with a spec that tries and abuses a warriors sword spec while dual weilding and i think ive come up with a decent one here.
http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/info/...00000000000000
Im just wondering what you guys think of it, and basically just curious if its worth it or if i should just go deeper fury for rampage/imp zerker stance.
Also if this spec is a good one, what would i need to build besides hit? im thinking crit more than AP just so flurry stays on and to get more damage from sword spec, but AP may be better more more damage per swing.
Currently im using Latros and edge of the cosmos, but im wondering if faster swords would be better for this build. im trying to buy a blinkstrike to MH but the only one i know of is quite out of my price range and i dont wanna buy something i wont use.
http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/info/...00000000000000
Im just wondering what you guys think of it, and basically just curious if its worth it or if i should just go deeper fury for rampage/imp zerker stance.
Also if this spec is a good one, what would i need to build besides hit? im thinking crit more than AP just so flurry stays on and to get more damage from sword spec, but AP may be better more more damage per swing.
Currently im using Latros and edge of the cosmos, but im wondering if faster swords would be better for this build. im trying to buy a blinkstrike to MH but the only one i know of is quite out of my price range and i dont wanna buy something i wont use.
for a 31/30 2h arms build, i think the 12agi, 3% increased crit damage meta gem followed by a lot of crit gems would be the way to go. makes it so that you don't have a yellow gem limit that 12crit meta requires so you actually gain more crit with that meta. the meta's second stat greatly benefits this route as well. and talent-wise, you gain a lot from crit, more dps than str imo (not tested yet though). flurry, deep wounds, impale, sweeping strike, and sword spec and wf (extra attacks criting is what i mean with these) all benefit from crit.
speaking of extra attacks, stacking crit theoretically raises your dps exponentially. say for example you have 20% crit with sword spec. sword spec's 5% chance to proc an extra attack has a 20% chance to crit when it procs, so sword spec actually gains you a whole 1% crit (5% * 20% = 1%) behind the scenes, thus increasing your total dps by approximately 1%. at 40% crit, you gain 2% crit. these are just examples and can get extremely beneficial when throwing WF and more crit in there.
fully raid geared and buffed, i think ~45% crit is obtainable by a 2h sword spec'd warrior. so sword spec and wf give you a 35% chance to gain an extra attack. 35%*45%=15.75% extra crit. also, since sword spec can proc off of WF attack and vise versa, depending on which one proc'd before, you keep chain multiplying the %'s. my math kinda stops after the first extra attack, but i'm sure you guys get the idea.
anyone wanna second-check my theorycrafting and math just to make sure? lol i don't want to pick the crit-central route and realize i've made a mistake. thx.
speaking of extra attacks, stacking crit theoretically raises your dps exponentially. say for example you have 20% crit with sword spec. sword spec's 5% chance to proc an extra attack has a 20% chance to crit when it procs, so sword spec actually gains you a whole 1% crit (5% * 20% = 1%) behind the scenes, thus increasing your total dps by approximately 1%. at 40% crit, you gain 2% crit. these are just examples and can get extremely beneficial when throwing WF and more crit in there.
fully raid geared and buffed, i think ~45% crit is obtainable by a 2h sword spec'd warrior. so sword spec and wf give you a 35% chance to gain an extra attack. 35%*45%=15.75% extra crit. also, since sword spec can proc off of WF attack and vise versa, depending on which one proc'd before, you keep chain multiplying the %'s. my math kinda stops after the first extra attack, but i'm sure you guys get the idea.
anyone wanna second-check my theorycrafting and math just to make sure? lol i don't want to pick the crit-central route and realize i've made a mistake. thx.
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Originally Posted by Trazhenko
I don't know what your kill order is, but I recommend tanking the Shaman and Hunter adds closer together for Blade Flurry/Whirlwind/Multishot/etc.
(If you already do, shame on Elude for not taking advantage.) |
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Originally Posted by Gokey
For a PURE PvE MS/Slam spec, should there be any variant to: http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=pV0xdAio0zzZVV0VMgoV ?
This assumes that someone else in the raid has Blood Frenzy. |
also in reply to the stat focus thing, this i my current gear setup for pve: http://armory.wow-europe.com/#charac...+Dawn&n=Laknor which means, without the flask approx 38,5% crit(zerker stance), and 1700 AP. Raidbuffed this translates into 45ish crit, with feral druid buff, and 2kish AP. Seeing as my crit is sort of ok right now i'm trying to get my AP over 1800 AP, at which point i think i'm fairly well balanced.
i do have a question though for those MS warriors using Blood Frenzy in their build. Do you think it's worth keeping the 3/5 flurry or spend those points in imp MS?
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Hi, new member here nice site been reading it for a while but wanted to make a post as the people here seem to know alot more than the general public on the wow site.
My question is this for a human fury warrior i want to purchase either a mace or sword to take advantage of the +5 weapon skill.
Next week I will have enough arena points to get my main hand weapon followed by my oh in a couple of weeks.
So the stats for the mace and sword are pretty similar been the top end damage is higher on the mace over the sword but the low end is adjusted so ineffect the mace has different low end damage.
So what I would like to know is there any dps advantage in pure pve situations only take one over the other?
(sword)
Merciless Gladiator's Slicer
Binds when picked up
One-HandSword
203-305 DmgSpeed 2.60
(97.7 damage per second)
+27 Stamina
Durability: 105 / 105
Requires Level 70
Equip: Improves hit rating by 10.
Equip: Improves critical strike rating by 19.
Equip: Improves your resilience rating by 12.
Equip: Increases attack power by 30.
Vs (Mace)
Merciless Gladiator's Pummeler
Binds when picked up
One-HandMace
177-330 DmgSpeed 2.60
(97.5 damage per second)
+27 Stamina
Durability: 105 / 105
Requires Level 70
Equip: Improves hit rating by 10.
Equip: Improves critical strike rating by 19.
Equip: Improves your resilience rating by 12.
Equip: Increases attack power by 30.
Hi, new member here nice site been reading it for a while but wanted to make a post as the people here seem to know alot more than the general public on the wow site.
My question is this for a human fury warrior i want to purchase either a mace or sword to take advantage of the +5 weapon skill.
Next week I will have enough arena points to get my main hand weapon followed by my oh in a couple of weeks.
So the stats for the mace and sword are pretty similar been the top end damage is higher on the mace over the sword but the low end is adjusted so ineffect the mace has different low end damage.
So what I would like to know is there any dps advantage in pure pve situations only take one over the other?
(sword)
Merciless Gladiator's Slicer
Binds when picked up
One-HandSword
203-305 DmgSpeed 2.60
(97.7 damage per second)
+27 Stamina
Durability: 105 / 105
Requires Level 70
Equip: Improves hit rating by 10.
Equip: Improves critical strike rating by 19.
Equip: Improves your resilience rating by 12.
Equip: Increases attack power by 30.
Vs (Mace)
Merciless Gladiator's Pummeler
Binds when picked up
One-HandMace
177-330 DmgSpeed 2.60
(97.5 damage per second)
+27 Stamina
Durability: 105 / 105
Requires Level 70
Equip: Improves hit rating by 10.
Equip: Improves critical strike rating by 19.
Equip: Improves your resilience rating by 12.
Equip: Increases attack power by 30.
The sword has .2 more dps at the same speed. Ergo, the sword does more damage on average and is preferable. Not by much, but still.
Generally top end and low end damage are not interesting values. Look at speed and dps, not the damage range.
Generally top end and low end damage are not interesting values. Look at speed and dps, not the damage range.
Edited onPatch 2.1.2
While we are on the subject of Arena weapons (I cannot get the spreadsheet to work with OppenOffice and no one has actually told me how to enable or disable feedback), how exactly is off hand damage calculated? Is it weapon + AP x 50% (62%) or Weapon + (AP x 50%/62%)? I want to get a better off hand than my current...if there really is a true upgrade through Arena weapons. I'm currently using:
Malchazeen
One-Hand Dagger
132 - 199 Damage Speed 1.80
(91.9 damage per second)
+16 Stamina
Equip: Improves hit rating by 15.
Equip: Increases attack power by 50.
The only option I would consider replacing it with would be:
Merciless Gladiator's Hacker
Off Hand Axe
102 - 191 Damage Speed 1.50
(97.7 damage per second)
+27 Stamina
Equip: Improves hit rating by 10.
Equip: Improves critical strike rating by 19.
Equip: Improves your resilience rating by 12.
Equip: Increases attack power by 30.
But I would most likely go with the 1.8 speed version. Is +5.8 physical DPS (then toss in the off hand penalty) actually going to see any real increase in damage? I'd also be gaining 0.86% crit while losing 22 AP and 0.33% hit. Then toss in the orc racial of +5 axe skill, which at this point, I have absolutely no idea what it does. Is it +0.04% hit/crit -dodge, -parry per point or +0.2% per point? Char sheet shows it adding 0.04% crit at least. Does it increase hit/crit even more vs lvl 73 mobs? It doesn't seem like anyone has it completely figured out yet.
I'm not against grinding Arena to get one of these at all, but I'd like to think I would be gaining a real upgrade other than just more hit points. Plus, I have this wierd aversion to ever lowering AP when possible. I also do not want to drop lower than 15% hit, but again, I do not know exactly how much +5 skill will contribute to that, and it doesn't seem to reflect in the hit rating value.
Malchazeen
One-Hand Dagger
132 - 199 Damage Speed 1.80
(91.9 damage per second)
+16 Stamina
Equip: Improves hit rating by 15.
Equip: Increases attack power by 50.
The only option I would consider replacing it with would be:
Merciless Gladiator's Hacker
Off Hand Axe
102 - 191 Damage Speed 1.50
(97.7 damage per second)
+27 Stamina
Equip: Improves hit rating by 10.
Equip: Improves critical strike rating by 19.
Equip: Improves your resilience rating by 12.
Equip: Increases attack power by 30.
But I would most likely go with the 1.8 speed version. Is +5.8 physical DPS (then toss in the off hand penalty) actually going to see any real increase in damage? I'd also be gaining 0.86% crit while losing 22 AP and 0.33% hit. Then toss in the orc racial of +5 axe skill, which at this point, I have absolutely no idea what it does. Is it +0.04% hit/crit -dodge, -parry per point or +0.2% per point? Char sheet shows it adding 0.04% crit at least. Does it increase hit/crit even more vs lvl 73 mobs? It doesn't seem like anyone has it completely figured out yet.
I'm not against grinding Arena to get one of these at all, but I'd like to think I would be gaining a real upgrade other than just more hit points. Plus, I have this wierd aversion to ever lowering AP when possible. I also do not want to drop lower than 15% hit, but again, I do not know exactly how much +5 skill will contribute to that, and it doesn't seem to reflect in the hit rating value.
Last edited by Graul : 06/22/07 at 4:12 AM.
Can't comment on the weapon skill thing, as i play undead, and from the current itemization and effect of +weapon skill...i just ignore it.
I was faced with a similar situation as you Graul. I decided to go with the Gladiator axe for a few reasons.
1. It IS higher dps, significantly more so then my old fel-edged battleaxe i had previously.
2. It's an axe....using daggers just feels wrong. Plus, i don't have to piss off any rogues over melch, when i could be pissing them off over the ring of lethality or trinket offa leo.
3. It looks hella cool, and the....vibrant green glow from +20 str doesn't show on it. Saving my sanity greatly. Walking around like a big green light bulb really bothered me.
Now, for you, would it be a big, or even noticeable upgrade? I'd wager it wouldn't make more then a half of a percent difference one way or another.
My current plan to is to have the main-hand and off-hand gladiator weapons, and switch from weaponsmith to armor, and get the T3 crafted breastplate. That's a much better setup for me then using the crafted T3 weapon and doomplate chest IMO. This has the added bonus of giving me something like 75-80 more stamina, so i can cheap out on stamina on all my other gear and stack straight AP/crit/hit.
On a similar topic. What are you all using as back pieces? I'm still using the cloak out of Shadow labs (Inciter's) I'm sad to say. I've been looking to get the drape of the dark reavers off of Aran, but he hasn't dropped it in over 3 months. The other thought i had was a vengeance wrap with a +8 str gem. It's something like 32 more ap and 10 more CR, but i give up 15 sta (which i dont mind) and 10 hit rating (which i do kinda mind)
I was faced with a similar situation as you Graul. I decided to go with the Gladiator axe for a few reasons.
1. It IS higher dps, significantly more so then my old fel-edged battleaxe i had previously.
2. It's an axe....using daggers just feels wrong. Plus, i don't have to piss off any rogues over melch, when i could be pissing them off over the ring of lethality or trinket offa leo.
3. It looks hella cool, and the....vibrant green glow from +20 str doesn't show on it. Saving my sanity greatly. Walking around like a big green light bulb really bothered me.
Now, for you, would it be a big, or even noticeable upgrade? I'd wager it wouldn't make more then a half of a percent difference one way or another.
My current plan to is to have the main-hand and off-hand gladiator weapons, and switch from weaponsmith to armor, and get the T3 crafted breastplate. That's a much better setup for me then using the crafted T3 weapon and doomplate chest IMO. This has the added bonus of giving me something like 75-80 more stamina, so i can cheap out on stamina on all my other gear and stack straight AP/crit/hit.
On a similar topic. What are you all using as back pieces? I'm still using the cloak out of Shadow labs (Inciter's) I'm sad to say. I've been looking to get the drape of the dark reavers off of Aran, but he hasn't dropped it in over 3 months. The other thought i had was a vengeance wrap with a +8 str gem. It's something like 32 more ap and 10 more CR, but i give up 15 sta (which i dont mind) and 10 hit rating (which i do kinda mind)
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Originally Posted by Gokey
For a PURE PvE MS/Slam spec, should there be any variant to: http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=pV0xdAio0zzZVV0VMgoV ?
This assumes that someone else in the raid has Blood Frenzy. |
My current spec uses HS as a rage dump, but i'm hoping to get my hands on either the Kael'thas 2h or the Gladiator 2h and switch to sword spec shortly. When I do respec for 2h swords i'll be picking up Blood Frenzy (at the price of 2 points in Flurry) and shifting back to give Improved Slam a better try.
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Originally Posted by Laknor
i do have a question though for those MS warriors using Blood Frenzy in their build. Do you think it's worth keeping the 3/5 flurry or spend those points in imp MS?
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I'm currently 35/5/21, with Second Wind and Bloodfrenzy in the Arms tree, and on those mobs were I can apply the debuff successfully, I do definitely notice the difference in how fast the mobs die. Mind you, I've not been very deep in end-game content yet (still in Kara), so I cant really say about how it perfoms in a 25-man raid as opposed to 5-man and heroics.
But really it is a tradeoff - by taking the debuff instead of flurry, you're trading off some of your own DPS for a raid-wide buff. To take a purely sefish view, 3/5 in flurry would be better, but then if you're going for pure DPS, why not simply go for a full or part fury build instead?
But by all accounts, an MS warrior with Blood Frenzy and Imp TC/Imp DS (a.k.a. "the debuff bitch") who can off-tank if needed and produce respectable DPS if needed is a valuable part of a raid group.
On the other hand, if you already have another warrior who has Blood Frenzy, then I would say without hesitation to go for 3/5 flurry.
Edited onPatch 2.1.2
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Originally Posted by Charsi
I've found it counterproductive to stance dance to Overpower, especially without Tactical Mastery. Am I missing something?
My current spec uses HS as a rage dump, but i'm hoping to get my hands on either the Kael'thas 2h or the Gladiator 2h and switch to sword spec shortly. When I do that i'll be picking up Blood Frenzy (at the price of 2 points in Flurry) and shifting back to give Improved Slam a better try. |
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Originally Posted by Laknor
i do have a question though for those MS warriors using Blood Frenzy in their build. Do you think it's worth keeping the 3/5 flurry or spend those points in imp MS?
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Blood Frenzy is pretty okay and it helps me justify my raid spot to myself because I'm not great DPS unless it's a stationary fight, it's not like second wind would help me anywhere but arena anyway
Last edited by Hoonboof : 06/22/07 at 11:01 AM.
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Originally Posted by Charsi
I've found it counterproductive to stance dance to Overpower, especially without Tactical Mastery. Am I missing something?
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I don't think you are. I've often found myself falling into a PVP mindset when it becomes available thinking "aha! overpower with impale = automatic crit!"
Which means switching to Battle Stance, then Overpower then back to Beserk Stance (tossing in some GCDs there), with a resultant massive loss of rage.
All of which means your DPS goes down the toilet, especially if you were previously slamspamming away with a friendly WF totem nearby.
The more I think about it, the more I would argue that the overpower skill should come with a big warning saying "for use in battlegrounds only!". The problem is that many of us are so conditioned to see overpower as some sort of "automatic crit" when in fact, I really think it is a comparitively weak skill.
To work out your offhand damage its 50% of your weapon DPS + 50% of your added DPS from AP < thats without dual wield specialization. With dual wield specialization its 62.5% of your weapon DPS + 62.5% of your added DPS from AP.
Edited onPatch 2.1.2
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Originally Posted by Calgar
On a similar topic. What are you all using as back pieces? I'm still using the cloak out of Shadow labs (Inciter's) I'm sad to say. I've been looking to get the drape of the dark reavers off of Aran, but he hasn't dropped it in over 3 months. The other thought i had was a vengeance wrap with a +8 str gem. It's something like 32 more ap and 10 more CR, but i give up 15 sta (which i dont mind) and 10 hit rating (which i do kinda mind)
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I still use Cloak of the Inciter for PvP though; it's very very good.
Last edited by LodeRunner : 06/22/07 at 11:20 AM.
| On a similar topic. What are you all using as back pieces? I'm still using the cloak out of Shadow labs (Inciter's) I'm sad to say |
Ive got a crafted vengeance and cloak of inciter and moroes cloak, use either inciter or vengeance, moroes cape lies in the bank, un-used. Inciter for bosses due to ?? level, vengeance for anything else, as i rarely seem to miss even with 14% hit.
Gah, i wish armory would tell us what stance you are in when you log out.
Okay, so the cloak choices are the proverbial "Suckorz" until mid-black temple, which i am so far away from right now it isn't even remotely funny. Just going to have to make due.
Is anyone actively collecting either full T4 or T5 DPS suits? I have the T4 helm, and only got that as a filler to hold me over until i got the helm off of void reaver so i'm not still using the helm of second sight. The shoulders are inferior to Kazzak shoulder, gloves are worse then Gruul gloves. Pants are inferior to other leather gear, and while the chest is certainly nice, it's not something to drop a heap of DKP on IMO.
As for T5...i don't think i'm likely to get a single piece. The pants and gloves can be argued....but by and large the suit is not worth what it would cost me DKP wise.
Okay, so the cloak choices are the proverbial "Suckorz" until mid-black temple, which i am so far away from right now it isn't even remotely funny. Just going to have to make due.
Is anyone actively collecting either full T4 or T5 DPS suits? I have the T4 helm, and only got that as a filler to hold me over until i got the helm off of void reaver so i'm not still using the helm of second sight. The shoulders are inferior to Kazzak shoulder, gloves are worse then Gruul gloves. Pants are inferior to other leather gear, and while the chest is certainly nice, it's not something to drop a heap of DKP on IMO.
As for T5...i don't think i'm likely to get a single piece. The pants and gloves can be argued....but by and large the suit is not worth what it would cost me DKP wise.
Edited onPatch 2.1.2
| The shoulders are inferior to Kazzak |
Last edited by Graul : 06/22/07 at 1:36 PM.
Since my guild got a couple prot tanks and feral tanks, I felt that there was not that much need for me as prot (since the other tanks got better gear than me).
So lately I've been playing a bit around with the 2H Fury build (as I got stormherald, and mace spec isn't exactly great for pve). In my opinion it's not viable without Windfury, Bloodthirst is pretty weak and there is not much rage for Slam. I must say that found rampage hard to keep up in most cases aswell, but that might be my gear or the lack of windfury. The spec can put out massive numbers in some encounters or when you got windfury. But personally I would prefer going 31/30 with a sword/axe (sadly I only got Gorehowl aviable atm).
I'm just not sure if I should try to go DW, my dps gear is more 2H orientated, as my hitrating is very low ~100ish, but one thing I don't understand is when people list values of str/hit/crit/AP etc. then hit is valued very low and since my rogue was my previous main, I know that hit is extremely important for combat rogues. My question is, how much hit rating should I aim for before even thinking about going DW? And what gems is the way to go when your dualwielding?
Hope it's not answered already, been following this & other dps warrior threads alot lately, but still not sure about it.
So lately I've been playing a bit around with the 2H Fury build (as I got stormherald, and mace spec isn't exactly great for pve). In my opinion it's not viable without Windfury, Bloodthirst is pretty weak and there is not much rage for Slam. I must say that found rampage hard to keep up in most cases aswell, but that might be my gear or the lack of windfury. The spec can put out massive numbers in some encounters or when you got windfury. But personally I would prefer going 31/30 with a sword/axe (sadly I only got Gorehowl aviable atm).
I'm just not sure if I should try to go DW, my dps gear is more 2H orientated, as my hitrating is very low ~100ish, but one thing I don't understand is when people list values of str/hit/crit/AP etc. then hit is valued very low and since my rogue was my previous main, I know that hit is extremely important for combat rogues. My question is, how much hit rating should I aim for before even thinking about going DW? And what gems is the way to go when your dualwielding?
Hope it's not answered already, been following this & other dps warrior threads alot lately, but still not sure about it.
Edited onPatch 2.1.2
I have top DKP in my guild and could have gotten the T5 shoulders on our first VR kill last night, but i have trouble rationalizing taking a semi-decent upgrade for me verus a semi-decent upgrade for one of our druid or warrior tanks.
Of course a priest had to kick me in the balls and take it anyways. <cough>
At any rate, i've got so much DKP saved ATM, that i can pick and choose any 3 or 4 items i want, as well as getting all the DPS plate for virtually minimum bid.
@Graul, i agree on the shoulder issue, but i'm finding that as the gear gets higher and higher item level wise, it has more and more stamina. If things continue as they do, I'll break 10k Hp unbuffed in DPS gear before too long, so i'm not concerned about giving up a fair bit of stamina for a decent DPS increase.
Can that be our class motto or something? We were doing trash in TK last night and i somehow ended up in a mage/warlock/hunter group or something, and ended up 9th on DPS. My brother was #1 with his feral druid, and was constantly mocking me about how he was destroying me in DPS, and out-tanking me with the same spec. I said i was pretty much toast without a WF totem and we got into a big argument about how inflexible a dps warrior was if he needed a specific buff to be able to accomplish anything impressive. Anyways, the argument ended with me threatening to throw him out of the raid and me threatening to finish leveling my feral druid.
On a somewhat related note...i wonder if imp battleshout or Imp leader of the pack is better for a rogue's dps....this came up in our argument when i wanted to switch him into the hunter/mage group for me.
381 AP vs 5% crit and heals
According to my rough theory crafting, BS > LoTP when the rogue does less then 1000 DPS. Of course i'd get WAY more benefit from windfury then the druid would as well.
Of course a priest had to kick me in the balls and take it anyways. <cough>
At any rate, i've got so much DKP saved ATM, that i can pick and choose any 3 or 4 items i want, as well as getting all the DPS plate for virtually minimum bid.
@Graul, i agree on the shoulder issue, but i'm finding that as the gear gets higher and higher item level wise, it has more and more stamina. If things continue as they do, I'll break 10k Hp unbuffed in DPS gear before too long, so i'm not concerned about giving up a fair bit of stamina for a decent DPS increase.
| In my opinion it's not viable without Windfury |
On a somewhat related note...i wonder if imp battleshout or Imp leader of the pack is better for a rogue's dps....this came up in our argument when i wanted to switch him into the hunter/mage group for me.
381 AP vs 5% crit and heals
According to my rough theory crafting, BS > LoTP when the rogue does less then 1000 DPS. Of course i'd get WAY more benefit from windfury then the druid would as well.
Last edited by Calgar : 06/22/07 at 1:59 PM.
Edited onPatch 2.1.2
| how much hit rating should I aim for before even thinking about going DW |
| we got into a big argument about how inflexible a dps warrior was if he needed a specific buff to be able to accomplish anything impressive |
Last edited by Graul : 06/22/07 at 2:10 PM.
| Tell him to click off battle shout and to stay out of range of totems and auras. |
http://www.lossendil.com/wws/?report...a&s=9994-10603
Is the WWS is you are interested.
Edited onPatch 2.1.2
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Originally Posted by Charsi
I've found it counterproductive to stance dance to Overpower, especially without Tactical Mastery. Am I missing something?
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@ Calgar: When we're raiding with more than 1 dps warrior, I'll often shuffle extra rogues into group 1 (tank group). We often raid with 2 rogues, 4 warriors (3 of whom DPS), and 1 feral druid. So our groups usually look like this:
Group 1:
Prot Warrior
Tank/DPS Warrior/rogue
Shaman
Paladin
Rogue
Then group 3 (melee DPS group):
Feral Druid
DPS Warrior
DPS Warrior
Shaman (Enhancement)
Best Rogue <--
Your MT will lose Imp and the warriors and rogues that are normally deprived will gain a buttload of damage. Don't forget that tanks get a decent amount of TPS from windfury as well. Again, it depends on the encounter, but for most fights: this is optimal.
Besides, The amount of DPS a warrior gains from windfury is ENORMOUS. But, justifying this to your casters who are used to getting Wrath of Air will be no small feat. The only way to do this is to prove it. Show them your damage with Windfury, and then show them your damage without it. I believe someone did the math somewhere and even if you have a group with 3 casters, a shaman, and a dps warrior; it's better to drop windfury totem than wrath of air under all circumstances.
--
Another question: At what point does Bloodthirst outscale Mortal Strike with Bloodmoon?
Last edited by Gokey : 06/22/07 at 11:08 PM.
as far as dps in my guild goes im normally 2nd with a fully epiced rogue taking 1st.
I did a test the other day where i clicked off bs and reset meters on trash normally the rogue would beat me in dps with me in 2nd. He is always in my grp so he takes advantage of my 5/5 imp bs. Once the rogue lost bs i took over the lead to 1st in dps which is the 1st time i beat him. I myself was missing bs but I could out dps the rouge. I tried it 3 times with out bs and i would consistantly beat the rouge. Applied Bs and reset meter the rogue sure enough pulled away. So they are very dependent on BS
I did a test the other day where i clicked off bs and reset meters on trash normally the rogue would beat me in dps with me in 2nd. He is always in my grp so he takes advantage of my 5/5 imp bs. Once the rogue lost bs i took over the lead to 1st in dps which is the 1st time i beat him. I myself was missing bs but I could out dps the rouge. I tried it 3 times with out bs and i would consistantly beat the rouge. Applied Bs and reset meter the rogue sure enough pulled away. So they are very dependent on BS
As an update about TPS, our MT made a silly mistake and forgot to train his ranks of Shield Slam after PvP one weekend...so he was raiding near two weeks or so with the first rank. He does fine now and threat is never an issue as long as I have BoS up. He sits around 850 without WF but hovers closer to 1k with it. He also uses Devastate now. Now if only we could teach him how to consistently kill his inner demons 
Yarrick, you might want to make sure your tank has max ranks!
Yarrick, you might want to make sure your tank has max ranks!
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Originally Posted by Gokey
Another question: At what point does Bloodthirst outscale Mortal Strike with Bloodmoon?
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Bloodthirst does: AP * 0.45
Set as equal, solve for AP: AP = ( 469 + 210 ) / ( .45 - 3.3/14 ) = 3169
So, about 3200 AP. This is assuming no improved Mortal Strike, note.
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Originally Posted by Calgar
On a somewhat related note...i wonder if imp battleshout or Imp leader of the pack is better for a rogue's dps....this came up in our argument when i wanted to switch him into the hunter/mage group for me.
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Rogues are extremely buff dependant. We have very good tools for turning AP and crit into DPS, but the lowest unbuffed totals of the melee classes.
I would go so far as to say that if you have 3 rogues, a warrior, an enh shaman, and a feral druid, you are better off leaving the druid out of the buff party than the rogue. % crit is nice, but it's the weakest buff in the party, and giving it to 4 people is weaker than giving the 2 better buffs (BS/enh shaman) to the rogue.
Now, if the druid is skilled, and the rogue is mediocre, sure, buff the guy who knows how to play, but WF is down in that party, doing nothing for the druid, and it does as much for the rogue as all the other party buffs combined do for the druid.
For a Rogue, WF > BS >> LotP > TSA.
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Originally Posted by Calgar
On a somewhat related note...i wonder if imp battleshout or Imp leader of the pack is better for a rogue's dps....this came up in our argument when i wanted to switch him into the hunter/mage group for me.
381 AP vs 5% crit and heals According to my rough theory crafting, BS > LoTP when the rogue does less then 1000 DPS. Of course i'd get WAY more benefit from windfury then the druid would as well. |
I wouldn't mind snagging that trinket and use it to replace my bloodlust brooch, but solarian is a distant thought for me...we are 1/6 SSC and and 1/4 TK. Praying for either a tidewalker or hydross first kill tonight.
@Graul; LOL @ your tank...i knew something had to be up with your threat issues. Grats i guess?
I'm also somewhat surprised at the rogues saying BS >>>> ILotp. BS is 27 DPS (white damage wise) and even if you were to triple that to 75ish it would still barely out pace a 5% DPS increase and the healing. <shrug> i don't mind though, just an excuse to banish my brother to the "left-over" group of mages, hunters and warlocks
@Graul; LOL @ your tank...i knew something had to be up with your threat issues. Grats i guess?
I'm also somewhat surprised at the rogues saying BS >>>> ILotp. BS is 27 DPS (white damage wise) and even if you were to triple that to 75ish it would still barely out pace a 5% DPS increase and the healing. <shrug> i don't mind though, just an excuse to banish my brother to the "left-over" group of mages, hunters and warlocks
Sure, 381/14=27, but that's completely unhasted autoattack on 1 weapon. I dual-weild, I'm 0.5% from the hit cap vs. 73 mobs, Slice'n'dice is always up, I have a Dragonspine Trophy, Thundering Skyfire Diamond, Haste potions, then there's special attacks, and rupture damage (buffed by AP, gains nothing from crit) to consider.
It all adds up to BS giving me over 100 DPS, while LotP is giving me around 43.
5% crit is not going to be 5% more damage unless you have 0% crit beforehand and all your attacks are capable of critting, or if your crits are more than 200% damage (which my backstabs are, 224%, but they are only between 25 and 30% of my damage).
I'm sitting at 35ish crit after Mark/Kings/Agil Food/Agil pot. 5% more crit is only 3.7% more white damage and ~3.2% more backstab damage (backstab crit is really high already because of talents).
It all adds up to BS giving me over 100 DPS, while LotP is giving me around 43.
5% crit is not going to be 5% more damage unless you have 0% crit beforehand and all your attacks are capable of critting, or if your crits are more than 200% damage (which my backstabs are, 224%, but they are only between 25 and 30% of my damage).
I'm sitting at 35ish crit after Mark/Kings/Agil Food/Agil pot. 5% more crit is only 3.7% more white damage and ~3.2% more backstab damage (backstab crit is really high already because of talents).
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Originally Posted by Graul
Now if only we could teach him how to consistently kill his inner demons
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Originally Posted by Trazhenko
Our MT wears a mix of gear for a little more damage, uses a haste pot for the first one, and recklessness on the second if he's unlucky enough to get two.
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We've found that wearing some DPS gear makes the demons much easier while not hampering your tanking ability except perhaps in stage 2 when his dps in human form seems to go up. I think it is the same principle as wearing some of your best Epic resist gear pieces for certain fights, where the resist check you need to pass here is shitty DPS.
I've been toying with the 4% blood frenzy myself, wanted to try it in SSC and compare damage meters with it and without it and see what the break point is for % of the raids DPS as melee to really benefit from it.
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Originally Posted by Trazhenko
5% crit is not going to be 5% more damage unless you have 0% crit beforehand and all your attacks are capable of critting, or if your crits are more than 200% damage (which my backstabs are, 224%, but they are only between 25 and 30% of my damage).
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Originally Posted by Gokey
For a PURE PvE MS/Slam spec, should there be any variant to: http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=pV0xdAio0zzZVV0VMgoV ?
This assumes that someone else in the raid has Blood Frenzy. |
My current spec uses HS as a rage dump, but i'm hoping to get my hands on either the Kael'thas 2h or the Gladiator 2h and switch to sword spec shortly. When I do respec for 2h swords i'll be picking up Blood Frenzy (at the price of 2 points in Flurry) and shifting back to give Improved Slam a better try.
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Originally Posted by Laknor
i do have a question though for those MS warriors using Blood Frenzy in their build. Do you think it's worth keeping the 3/5 flurry or spend those points in imp MS?
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I'm currently 35/5/21, with Second Wind and Bloodfrenzy in the Arms tree, and on those mobs were I can apply the debuff successfully, I do definitely notice the difference in how fast the mobs die. Mind you, I've not been very deep in end-game content yet (still in Kara), so I cant really say about how it perfoms in a 25-man raid as opposed to 5-man and heroics.
But really it is a tradeoff - by taking the debuff instead of flurry, you're trading off some of your own DPS for a raid-wide buff. To take a purely sefish view, 3/5 in flurry would be better, but then if you're going for pure DPS, why not simply go for a full or part fury build instead?
But by all accounts, an MS warrior with Blood Frenzy and Imp TC/Imp DS (a.k.a. "the debuff bitch") who can off-tank if needed and produce respectable DPS if needed is a valuable part of a raid group.
On the other hand, if you already have another warrior who has Blood Frenzy, then I would say without hesitation to go for 3/5 flurry.
Edited onPatch 2.1.2
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Originally Posted by Charsi
I've found it counterproductive to stance dance to Overpower, especially without Tactical Mastery. Am I missing something?
My current spec uses HS as a rage dump, but i'm hoping to get my hands on either the Kael'thas 2h or the Gladiator 2h and switch to sword spec shortly. When I do that i'll be picking up Blood Frenzy (at the price of 2 points in Flurry) and shifting back to give Improved Slam a better try. |
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Originally Posted by Laknor
i do have a question though for those MS warriors using Blood Frenzy in their build. Do you think it's worth keeping the 3/5 flurry or spend those points in imp MS?
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Blood Frenzy is pretty okay and it helps me justify my raid spot to myself because I'm not great DPS unless it's a stationary fight, it's not like second wind would help me anywhere but arena anyway
Last edited by Hoonboof : 06/22/07 at 11:01 AM.
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Originally Posted by Charsi
I've found it counterproductive to stance dance to Overpower, especially without Tactical Mastery. Am I missing something?
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I don't think you are. I've often found myself falling into a PVP mindset when it becomes available thinking "aha! overpower with impale = automatic crit!"
Which means switching to Battle Stance, then Overpower then back to Beserk Stance (tossing in some GCDs there), with a resultant massive loss of rage.
All of which means your DPS goes down the toilet, especially if you were previously slamspamming away with a friendly WF totem nearby.
The more I think about it, the more I would argue that the overpower skill should come with a big warning saying "for use in battlegrounds only!". The problem is that many of us are so conditioned to see overpower as some sort of "automatic crit" when in fact, I really think it is a comparitively weak skill.
To work out your offhand damage its 50% of your weapon DPS + 50% of your added DPS from AP < thats without dual wield specialization. With dual wield specialization its 62.5% of your weapon DPS + 62.5% of your added DPS from AP.
Edited onPatch 2.1.2
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Originally Posted by Calgar
On a similar topic. What are you all using as back pieces? I'm still using the cloak out of Shadow labs (Inciter's) I'm sad to say. I've been looking to get the drape of the dark reavers off of Aran, but he hasn't dropped it in over 3 months. The other thought i had was a vengeance wrap with a +8 str gem. It's something like 32 more ap and 10 more CR, but i give up 15 sta (which i dont mind) and 10 hit rating (which i do kinda mind)
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I still use Cloak of the Inciter for PvP though; it's very very good.
Last edited by LodeRunner : 06/22/07 at 11:20 AM.
| On a similar topic. What are you all using as back pieces? I'm still using the cloak out of Shadow labs (Inciter's) I'm sad to say |
Ive got a crafted vengeance and cloak of inciter and moroes cloak, use either inciter or vengeance, moroes cape lies in the bank, un-used. Inciter for bosses due to ?? level, vengeance for anything else, as i rarely seem to miss even with 14% hit.
Gah, i wish armory would tell us what stance you are in when you log out.
Okay, so the cloak choices are the proverbial "Suckorz" until mid-black temple, which i am so far away from right now it isn't even remotely funny. Just going to have to make due.
Is anyone actively collecting either full T4 or T5 DPS suits? I have the T4 helm, and only got that as a filler to hold me over until i got the helm off of void reaver so i'm not still using the helm of second sight. The shoulders are inferior to Kazzak shoulder, gloves are worse then Gruul gloves. Pants are inferior to other leather gear, and while the chest is certainly nice, it's not something to drop a heap of DKP on IMO.
As for T5...i don't think i'm likely to get a single piece. The pants and gloves can be argued....but by and large the suit is not worth what it would cost me DKP wise.
Okay, so the cloak choices are the proverbial "Suckorz" until mid-black temple, which i am so far away from right now it isn't even remotely funny. Just going to have to make due.
Is anyone actively collecting either full T4 or T5 DPS suits? I have the T4 helm, and only got that as a filler to hold me over until i got the helm off of void reaver so i'm not still using the helm of second sight. The shoulders are inferior to Kazzak shoulder, gloves are worse then Gruul gloves. Pants are inferior to other leather gear, and while the chest is certainly nice, it's not something to drop a heap of DKP on IMO.
As for T5...i don't think i'm likely to get a single piece. The pants and gloves can be argued....but by and large the suit is not worth what it would cost me DKP wise.
Edited onPatch 2.1.2
| The shoulders are inferior to Kazzak |
Last edited by Graul : 06/22/07 at 1:36 PM.
Since my guild got a couple prot tanks and feral tanks, I felt that there was not that much need for me as prot (since the other tanks got better gear than me).
So lately I've been playing a bit around with the 2H Fury build (as I got stormherald, and mace spec isn't exactly great for pve). In my opinion it's not viable without Windfury, Bloodthirst is pretty weak and there is not much rage for Slam. I must say that found rampage hard to keep up in most cases aswell, but that might be my gear or the lack of windfury. The spec can put out massive numbers in some encounters or when you got windfury. But personally I would prefer going 31/30 with a sword/axe (sadly I only got Gorehowl aviable atm).
I'm just not sure if I should try to go DW, my dps gear is more 2H orientated, as my hitrating is very low ~100ish, but one thing I don't understand is when people list values of str/hit/crit/AP etc. then hit is valued very low and since my rogue was my previous main, I know that hit is extremely important for combat rogues. My question is, how much hit rating should I aim for before even thinking about going DW? And what gems is the way to go when your dualwielding?
Hope it's not answered already, been following this & other dps warrior threads alot lately, but still not sure about it.
So lately I've been playing a bit around with the 2H Fury build (as I got stormherald, and mace spec isn't exactly great for pve). In my opinion it's not viable without Windfury, Bloodthirst is pretty weak and there is not much rage for Slam. I must say that found rampage hard to keep up in most cases aswell, but that might be my gear or the lack of windfury. The spec can put out massive numbers in some encounters or when you got windfury. But personally I would prefer going 31/30 with a sword/axe (sadly I only got Gorehowl aviable atm).
I'm just not sure if I should try to go DW, my dps gear is more 2H orientated, as my hitrating is very low ~100ish, but one thing I don't understand is when people list values of str/hit/crit/AP etc. then hit is valued very low and since my rogue was my previous main, I know that hit is extremely important for combat rogues. My question is, how much hit rating should I aim for before even thinking about going DW? And what gems is the way to go when your dualwielding?
Hope it's not answered already, been following this & other dps warrior threads alot lately, but still not sure about it.
Edited onPatch 2.1.2
I have top DKP in my guild and could have gotten the T5 shoulders on our first VR kill last night, but i have trouble rationalizing taking a semi-decent upgrade for me verus a semi-decent upgrade for one of our druid or warrior tanks.
Of course a priest had to kick me in the balls and take it anyways. <cough>
At any rate, i've got so much DKP saved ATM, that i can pick and choose any 3 or 4 items i want, as well as getting all the DPS plate for virtually minimum bid.
@Graul, i agree on the shoulder issue, but i'm finding that as the gear gets higher and higher item level wise, it has more and more stamina. If things continue as they do, I'll break 10k Hp unbuffed in DPS gear before too long, so i'm not concerned about giving up a fair bit of stamina for a decent DPS increase.
Can that be our class motto or something? We were doing trash in TK last night and i somehow ended up in a mage/warlock/hunter group or something, and ended up 9th on DPS. My brother was #1 with his feral druid, and was constantly mocking me about how he was destroying me in DPS, and out-tanking me with the same spec. I said i was pretty much toast without a WF totem and we got into a big argument about how inflexible a dps warrior was if he needed a specific buff to be able to accomplish anything impressive. Anyways, the argument ended with me threatening to throw him out of the raid and me threatening to finish leveling my feral druid.
On a somewhat related note...i wonder if imp battleshout or Imp leader of the pack is better for a rogue's dps....this came up in our argument when i wanted to switch him into the hunter/mage group for me.
381 AP vs 5% crit and heals
According to my rough theory crafting, BS > LoTP when the rogue does less then 1000 DPS. Of course i'd get WAY more benefit from windfury then the druid would as well.
Of course a priest had to kick me in the balls and take it anyways. <cough>
At any rate, i've got so much DKP saved ATM, that i can pick and choose any 3 or 4 items i want, as well as getting all the DPS plate for virtually minimum bid.
@Graul, i agree on the shoulder issue, but i'm finding that as the gear gets higher and higher item level wise, it has more and more stamina. If things continue as they do, I'll break 10k Hp unbuffed in DPS gear before too long, so i'm not concerned about giving up a fair bit of stamina for a decent DPS increase.
| In my opinion it's not viable without Windfury |
On a somewhat related note...i wonder if imp battleshout or Imp leader of the pack is better for a rogue's dps....this came up in our argument when i wanted to switch him into the hunter/mage group for me.
381 AP vs 5% crit and heals
According to my rough theory crafting, BS > LoTP when the rogue does less then 1000 DPS. Of course i'd get WAY more benefit from windfury then the druid would as well.
Last edited by Calgar : 06/22/07 at 1:59 PM.
Edited onPatch 2.1.2
| how much hit rating should I aim for before even thinking about going DW |
| we got into a big argument about how inflexible a dps warrior was if he needed a specific buff to be able to accomplish anything impressive |
Last edited by Graul : 06/22/07 at 2:10 PM.
| Tell him to click off battle shout and to stay out of range of totems and auras. |
http://www.lossendil.com/wws/?report...a&s=9994-10603
Is the WWS is you are interested.
Edited onPatch 2.1.2
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Originally Posted by Charsi
I've found it counterproductive to stance dance to Overpower, especially without Tactical Mastery. Am I missing something?
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@ Calgar: When we're raiding with more than 1 dps warrior, I'll often shuffle extra rogues into group 1 (tank group). We often raid with 2 rogues, 4 warriors (3 of whom DPS), and 1 feral druid. So our groups usually look like this:
Group 1:
Prot Warrior
Tank/DPS Warrior/rogue
Shaman
Paladin
Rogue
Then group 3 (melee DPS group):
Feral Druid
DPS Warrior
DPS Warrior
Shaman (Enhancement)
Best Rogue <--
Your MT will lose Imp and the warriors and rogues that are normally deprived will gain a buttload of damage. Don't forget that tanks get a decent amount of TPS from windfury as well. Again, it depends on the encounter, but for most fights: this is optimal.
Besides, The amount of DPS a warrior gains from windfury is ENORMOUS. But, justifying this to your casters who are used to getting Wrath of Air will be no small feat. The only way to do this is to prove it. Show them your damage with Windfury, and then show them your damage without it. I believe someone did the math somewhere and even if you have a group with 3 casters, a shaman, and a dps warrior; it's better to drop windfury totem than wrath of air under all circumstances.
--
Another question: At what point does Bloodthirst outscale Mortal Strike with Bloodmoon?
Last edited by Gokey : 06/22/07 at 11:08 PM.
as far as dps in my guild goes im normally 2nd with a fully epiced rogue taking 1st.
I did a test the other day where i clicked off bs and reset meters on trash normally the rogue would beat me in dps with me in 2nd. He is always in my grp so he takes advantage of my 5/5 imp bs. Once the rogue lost bs i took over the lead to 1st in dps which is the 1st time i beat him. I myself was missing bs but I could out dps the rouge. I tried it 3 times with out bs and i would consistantly beat the rouge. Applied Bs and reset meter the rogue sure enough pulled away. So they are very dependent on BS
I did a test the other day where i clicked off bs and reset meters on trash normally the rogue would beat me in dps with me in 2nd. He is always in my grp so he takes advantage of my 5/5 imp bs. Once the rogue lost bs i took over the lead to 1st in dps which is the 1st time i beat him. I myself was missing bs but I could out dps the rouge. I tried it 3 times with out bs and i would consistantly beat the rouge. Applied Bs and reset meter the rogue sure enough pulled away. So they are very dependent on BS
As an update about TPS, our MT made a silly mistake and forgot to train his ranks of Shield Slam after PvP one weekend...so he was raiding near two weeks or so with the first rank. He does fine now and threat is never an issue as long as I have BoS up. He sits around 850 without WF but hovers closer to 1k with it. He also uses Devastate now. Now if only we could teach him how to consistently kill his inner demons
Yarrick, you might want to make sure your tank has max ranks!
Yarrick, you might want to make sure your tank has max ranks!
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Originally Posted by Gokey
Another question: At what point does Bloodthirst outscale Mortal Strike with Bloodmoon?
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Bloodthirst does: AP * 0.45
Set as equal, solve for AP: AP = ( 469 + 210 ) / ( .45 - 3.3/14 ) = 3169
So, about 3200 AP. This is assuming no improved Mortal Strike, note.
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Originally Posted by Calgar
On a somewhat related note...i wonder if imp battleshout or Imp leader of the pack is better for a rogue's dps....this came up in our argument when i wanted to switch him into the hunter/mage group for me.
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Rogues are extremely buff dependant. We have very good tools for turning AP and crit into DPS, but the lowest unbuffed totals of the melee classes.
I would go so far as to say that if you have 3 rogues, a warrior, an enh shaman, and a feral druid, you are better off leaving the druid out of the buff party than the rogue. % crit is nice, but it's the weakest buff in the party, and giving it to 4 people is weaker than giving the 2 better buffs (BS/enh shaman) to the rogue.
Now, if the druid is skilled, and the rogue is mediocre, sure, buff the guy who knows how to play, but WF is down in that party, doing nothing for the druid, and it does as much for the rogue as all the other party buffs combined do for the druid.
For a Rogue, WF > BS >> LotP > TSA.
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Originally Posted by Calgar
On a somewhat related note...i wonder if imp battleshout or Imp leader of the pack is better for a rogue's dps....this came up in our argument when i wanted to switch him into the hunter/mage group for me.
381 AP vs 5% crit and heals According to my rough theory crafting, BS > LoTP when the rogue does less then 1000 DPS. Of course i'd get WAY more benefit from windfury then the druid would as well. |
I wouldn't mind snagging that trinket and use it to replace my bloodlust brooch, but solarian is a distant thought for me...we are 1/6 SSC and and 1/4 TK. Praying for either a tidewalker or hydross first kill tonight.
@Graul; LOL @ your tank...i knew something had to be up with your threat issues. Grats i guess?
I'm also somewhat surprised at the rogues saying BS >>>> ILotp. BS is 27 DPS (white damage wise) and even if you were to triple that to 75ish it would still barely out pace a 5% DPS increase and the healing. <shrug> i don't mind though, just an excuse to banish my brother to the "left-over" group of mages, hunters and warlocks
@Graul; LOL @ your tank...i knew something had to be up with your threat issues. Grats i guess?
I'm also somewhat surprised at the rogues saying BS >>>> ILotp. BS is 27 DPS (white damage wise) and even if you were to triple that to 75ish it would still barely out pace a 5% DPS increase and the healing. <shrug> i don't mind though, just an excuse to banish my brother to the "left-over" group of mages, hunters and warlocks
Sure, 381/14=27, but that's completely unhasted autoattack on 1 weapon. I dual-weild, I'm 0.5% from the hit cap vs. 73 mobs, Slice'n'dice is always up, I have a Dragonspine Trophy, Thundering Skyfire Diamond, Haste potions, then there's special attacks, and rupture damage (buffed by AP, gains nothing from crit) to consider.
It all adds up to BS giving me over 100 DPS, while LotP is giving me around 43.
5% crit is not going to be 5% more damage unless you have 0% crit beforehand and all your attacks are capable of critting, or if your crits are more than 200% damage (which my backstabs are, 224%, but they are only between 25 and 30% of my damage).
I'm sitting at 35ish crit after Mark/Kings/Agil Food/Agil pot. 5% more crit is only 3.7% more white damage and ~3.2% more backstab damage (backstab crit is really high already because of talents).
It all adds up to BS giving me over 100 DPS, while LotP is giving me around 43.
5% crit is not going to be 5% more damage unless you have 0% crit beforehand and all your attacks are capable of critting, or if your crits are more than 200% damage (which my backstabs are, 224%, but they are only between 25 and 30% of my damage).
I'm sitting at 35ish crit after Mark/Kings/Agil Food/Agil pot. 5% more crit is only 3.7% more white damage and ~3.2% more backstab damage (backstab crit is really high already because of talents).
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Originally Posted by Graul
Now if only we could teach him how to consistently kill his inner demons
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Originally Posted by Trazhenko
Our MT wears a mix of gear for a little more damage, uses a haste pot for the first one, and recklessness on the second if he's unlucky enough to get two.
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We've found that wearing some DPS gear makes the demons much easier while not hampering your tanking ability except perhaps in stage 2 when his dps in human form seems to go up. I think it is the same principle as wearing some of your best Epic resist gear pieces for certain fights, where the resist check you need to pass here is shitty DPS.
I've been toying with the 4% blood frenzy myself, wanted to try it in SSC and compare damage meters with it and without it and see what the break point is for % of the raids DPS as melee to really benefit from it.
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Originally Posted by Trazhenko
5% crit is not going to be 5% more damage unless you have 0% crit beforehand and all your attacks are capable of critting, or if your crits are more than 200% damage (which my backstabs are, 224%, but they are only between 25 and 30% of my damage).
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Originally Posted by ikillyouheal
Wrong, going from 0% crit to 5% crit will give you the same DPS-upgrade as going from 30% crit to 35% crit, assuming that all your other stats stay the same.
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Yes, other things equal, if you do 100 DPS with 0 crit, and going from 0 to 5 crit gives you 5 DPS, then going from 30 to 35 should also give you 5 DPS, but 5 DPS is not 5% of the 130 you were doing when you had 30 crit, but it IS 5% of the 100 you were doing when you had 0 crit. See what I'm saying?
So I recently took the dive and decided to give this whole DW Fury thing a try.
I have my own personal windfury totem, and my DPS has gone up in comparison to 2-hand.
However I'm completely new to this, what type of rotation should I be using with DW?
With 2-hand it was simply a matter of slamming after white hits, and BT/WW when rage allowed.
With DW it seems like BT/WW, but what about after that? When do I use Heroic Strike? Etc.
(Fun side note, leveled 2-hand maces and 1-hand maces from 300->350 in 30 min in Blasted Lands, 235 intel gear ftw).
I have my own personal windfury totem, and my DPS has gone up in comparison to 2-hand.
However I'm completely new to this, what type of rotation should I be using with DW?
With 2-hand it was simply a matter of slamming after white hits, and BT/WW when rage allowed.
With DW it seems like BT/WW, but what about after that? When do I use Heroic Strike? Etc.
(Fun side note, leveled 2-hand maces and 1-hand maces from 300->350 in 30 min in Blasted Lands, 235 intel gear ftw).
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Originally Posted by Emeraude
So I recently took the dive and decided to give this whole DW Fury thing a try.
I have my own personal windfury totem, and my DPS has gone up in comparison to 2-hand. However I'm completely new to this, what type of rotation should I be using with DW? With 2-hand it was simply a matter of slamming after white hits, and BT/WW when rage allowed. With DW it seems like BT/WW, but what about after that? When do I use Heroic Strike? Etc. (Fun side note, leveled 2-hand maces and 1-hand maces from 300->350 in 30 min in Blasted Lands, 235 intel gear ftw). |
DPS Warrior Spreadsheet
Post #1260
I'm guessing you cant use any of these spreadsheets without having excel??
DW Fury really doesnt have a set "cycle" so much as a priority, but its the same idea as a 2h, your first priority is keeping BT or MS on CD, then WW if BT CD isn't up, toss in a rampage if both are on cooldown and its duration is <8 seconds or so, maybe less depending on how high your crit rate is. And any excess rage goes to HS (instead of slam as a rage dump with a 2H), or cleave is it is an especially threat sensitive fight or if youre really high on ktm (90%+ of MT). It's really tough for me to call it a "cycle" just due to variances in when you crit to how much rage you have, or a bad string of miss/dodge leaving your rage-starved, etc.
http://img204.imageshack.us/img204/5...7202801le6.jpg
Okay I'm definitely 100% sure Sword Spec can proc off itself as the link there shows although I'm not too sure if that was a treble proc or a double proc following a single proc within a second.
Okay I'm definitely 100% sure Sword Spec can proc off itself as the link there shows although I'm not too sure if that was a treble proc or a double proc following a single proc within a second.
Edited onPatch 2.1.2
read the title of the thread and was wondering, what stat will be the most important in terms of increasing your dps in the future? with the addition of static haste rating increases and static armor penetration increases, do str and crit lose their title as best dps stat for warriors?
i'm a MS/Slam dps warrior and i know that there will be times where my attack speed will be too fast to fit in a MS/WW/hamstring in between each slam (flurry + mongoose + bloodlust + haste rating), so i'm guessing that at that point, haste will diminish in value for me. for non-slam builds, haste rating is much beter as i believe it does not decrease slam's cast time and there's no diminishing point. what's haste rating's dps per stat budget at compared to other dps stats? also consider that the current rage formula is affected by weapon speed so haste rating doesn't seem as good as str or crit for rage generation.
as for armor penetration, it seems kinda weird that it's best against clothies like shade of aran. seems like using an armor penetration rating system would work much better, where you penetrate armor by % rather than by hard numbers. but anyhow, against an average boss with average armor, is armor penetration more dps per stat budget than other stats like str or crit?
and one last question, i read that crit is the most dps per stat budget but i also read that crit is .94 dps value whereas str has 1 dps value. which one is correct for what type of situation? as a warrior with 3% increased crit dmg meta gem, flurry, deep wounds, impale, sword spec, blessing of kings, and wf, would crit be better than str (no imp zerker stance)?
the spreadsheet doesn't support 2h dps so i figured this would be the best place to find
these answers.
Edit: i guess what i'm really asking for is if we can update the spreadsheet to include haste, armor penetration, new gems/gear, 2h builds, etc? is anyone working on this right now? how soon can we expect an updated one up here?
i'm a MS/Slam dps warrior and i know that there will be times where my attack speed will be too fast to fit in a MS/WW/hamstring in between each slam (flurry + mongoose + bloodlust + haste rating), so i'm guessing that at that point, haste will diminish in value for me. for non-slam builds, haste rating is much beter as i believe it does not decrease slam's cast time and there's no diminishing point. what's haste rating's dps per stat budget at compared to other dps stats? also consider that the current rage formula is affected by weapon speed so haste rating doesn't seem as good as str or crit for rage generation.
as for armor penetration, it seems kinda weird that it's best against clothies like shade of aran. seems like using an armor penetration rating system would work much better, where you penetrate armor by % rather than by hard numbers. but anyhow, against an average boss with average armor, is armor penetration more dps per stat budget than other stats like str or crit?
and one last question, i read that crit is the most dps per stat budget but i also read that crit is .94 dps value whereas str has 1 dps value. which one is correct for what type of situation? as a warrior with 3% increased crit dmg meta gem, flurry, deep wounds, impale, sword spec, blessing of kings, and wf, would crit be better than str (no imp zerker stance)?
the spreadsheet doesn't support 2h dps so i figured this would be the best place to find
these answers.
Edit: i guess what i'm really asking for is if we can update the spreadsheet to include haste, armor penetration, new gems/gear, 2h builds, etc? is anyone working on this right now? how soon can we expect an updated one up here?
Last edited by shadowscion : 06/27/07 at 5:48 AM.
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Originally Posted by Davia
And any excess rage goes to HS (instead of slam as a rage dump with a 2H), or cleave is it is an especially threat sensitive fight or if youre really high on ktm (90%+ of MT).
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SlamSpam or Slam>MS?
hey guys, first post here, so be gentle ^^
i'm a 2hand lover, been dw-fury for a week, didnt like it
my normal damage cycle is
whitehit > slam >(if eccess rage)> MS/WW
i was wondering if it would be more efficient to do 2 slams instead of a MS, as its 2 yellow hits with +140 dmg each, as opposed to 1 hit with +210 dmg and one white hit
as i think weaponspeed is very important in this, i'm using merciless glad's greatsword with no flurry or haste gear, and imp slam ofc
would the gains of +70 dmg, no glancing, impale bonus and having the white after the slam come sooner than the whithit after the slam>ms+white offset the damage lost from losing 1 white hit in rage?
i'm a 2hand lover, been dw-fury for a week, didnt like it
my normal damage cycle is
whitehit > slam >(if eccess rage)> MS/WW
i was wondering if it would be more efficient to do 2 slams instead of a MS, as its 2 yellow hits with +140 dmg each, as opposed to 1 hit with +210 dmg and one white hit
as i think weaponspeed is very important in this, i'm using merciless glad's greatsword with no flurry or haste gear, and imp slam ofc
would the gains of +70 dmg, no glancing, impale bonus and having the white after the slam come sooner than the whithit after the slam>ms+white offset the damage lost from losing 1 white hit in rage?
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Originally Posted by Frostshokk
I'm guessing you cant use any of these spreadsheets without having excel??
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Originally Posted by KYA1337
hey guys, first post here, so be gentle ^^
i'm a 2hand lover, been dw-fury for a week, didnt like it my normal damage cycle is whitehit > slam >(if eccess rage)> MS/WW i was wondering if it would be more efficient to do 2 slams instead of a MS, as its 2 yellow hits with +140 dmg each, as opposed to 1 hit with +210 dmg and one white hit as i think weaponspeed is very important in this, i'm using merciless glad's greatsword with no flurry or haste gear, and imp slam ofc would the gains of +70 dmg, no glancing, impale bonus and having the white after the slam come sooner than the whithit after the slam>ms+white offset the damage lost from losing 1 white hit in rage? |
I really have no "order" for my 2h dps. Rage is consistent per say, but you with a 2her you tend to go from 0-10 rage to full with WF and white hits. Keep ms and ww on cool down. Always try to work a slam in immediately after your white hits.
Another question I would like answered if possible. I dps as 33/28 a lot of the times in our raids. And I tend to be either number 2 or three on almost every fight that isn't an aoe heavy fight(Morogrim). I'm curious if other people see dps warriors beating casters. Or do my casters just suck that much. The usual group setup for the melee is dps warrior/rogue/rogue/rogue/shaman. the casters usually have a shaman and a spriest with them and I can still beat them almost every time on any fight but morogrim in all of ssc.
Also, I tried 2h fury for Voidreaver last night and liked it a lot 19/42/0 seems like a solid 2h fury build for any warrior. I would suggest other warriors try it out that like 2h more than dw for dps.
Another question I would like answered if possible. I dps as 33/28 a lot of the times in our raids. And I tend to be either number 2 or three on almost every fight that isn't an aoe heavy fight(Morogrim). I'm curious if other people see dps warriors beating casters. Or do my casters just suck that much. The usual group setup for the melee is dps warrior/rogue/rogue/rogue/shaman. the casters usually have a shaman and a spriest with them and I can still beat them almost every time on any fight but morogrim in all of ssc.
Also, I tried 2h fury for Voidreaver last night and liked it a lot 19/42/0 seems like a solid 2h fury build for any warrior. I would suggest other warriors try it out that like 2h more than dw for dps.
We have a dps warrior consistently beating casters as well he is a DWer but to answer your question it sounds like it is not completely out of the ordinary
DPS warriors can top damage meters, no question about it, but how efficiently do you do it? i was suprised yesterday to overaggro magtheridon after the tank had 1 min of aggro, i was just using my normal priority system and no WF either, yet was sustaining 1.1k DPS, however next try i was only at 950 yet nothing changed, wierd but true but i didnt overaggro at least. Reason i overaggroed was KTM wasnt reset as RL thought it wasnt possible to overaggro, neither did i, until then anyways ^ Anyways to answer your question who comes top depends on group compsistions player skill and how the boss works, im consistently top on some fights yet find it hard to get top 5 in others. But yes warrior DPS can surpass casters, and by quite alot some times.
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Originally Posted by Lalar
I really have no "order" for my 2h dps. Rage is consistent per say, but you with a 2her you tend to go from 0-10 rage to full with WF and white hits. Keep ms and ww on cool down. Always try to work a slam in immediately after your white hits.
Another question I would like answered if possible. I dps as 33/28 a lot of the times in our raids. And I tend to be either number 2 or three on almost every fight that isn't an aoe heavy fight(Morogrim). I'm curious if other people see dps warriors beating casters. Or do my casters just suck that much. The usual group setup for the melee is dps warrior/rogue/rogue/rogue/shaman. the casters usually have a shaman and a spriest with them and I can still beat them almost every time on any fight but morogrim in all of ssc. Also, I tried 2h fury for Voidreaver last night and liked it a lot 19/42/0 seems like a solid 2h fury build for any warrior. I would suggest other warriors try it out that like 2h more than dw for dps. |
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Originally Posted by Rishina
i was just using my normal priority system and no WF either, yet was sustaining 1.1k DPS, however next try i was only at 950 yet nothing changed, wierd but true but i didnt overaggro at least.
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i have no idea, like i said i got aggro and the next try i was back down to a more normal level of 950ish, before death at 27% from prison collapse + knockback into flames anyways. and no not 20% banish, i overaggroed at around 45% and im still not sure how the hell it happened. my crit percentage was unusually high about 48% registered on damage meters ( normally 40%ish) but thats it. i wasnt on clicking duty, just sustained DPS from 100% to 45% then overaggro and die, then tank got hit by cleave + normal attack and died 
. prioty i used was always keep rampage + BS up, BT> WW then hamstring in between. using cooldowns when availble exluding recky . Group setup was enhancement shammy + rogue + rogue + feral druid, so GoA was used If it happens again il try and figure out what i did, but i think it may have just been fluke. had WF today for basically the first time ever in SSC, i love it but aggro is then a problem sometimes.
. prioty i used was always keep rampage + BS up, BT> WW then hamstring in between. using cooldowns when availble exluding recky . Group setup was enhancement shammy + rogue + rogue + feral druid, so GoA was used If it happens again il try and figure out what i did, but i think it may have just been fluke. had WF today for basically the first time ever in SSC, i love it but aggro is then a problem sometimes.Edited onPatch 2.1.2
Just a screenshot to show how insane fury warriors can be when we're allowed to go all out on low armor targets. (Other warrior is ms/flurry at the moment due to arena qualifiers, maybe a nice comparision as he was in the same group as me and hit the same targets)
3 x heroism + Enhancement shaman + BM hunter = 2000 (sustained) dps over almost 4 minutes.
Never had so much fun in a long time.
3 x heroism + Enhancement shaman + BM hunter = 2000 (sustained) dps over almost 4 minutes.
Never had so much fun in a long time.
Last edited by svagftw : 06/27/07 at 9:34 PM.
Someone requested seeing a DW Fury warrior doing over 1200 DPS on a fight, just offering up a WWS to show that it is indeed possible. Personally I think Solarian is a favorable fight, I could never do anything close to this Kael without worrying over aggro, even with a Prism.
Overview of the fight.
http://www.lossendil.com/wws/?report=l4a4nhbapglas
My personal stats, 1412 DPS according to WWS.
http://www.lossendil.com/wws/?report=l4a4nhbapglas&a=4
I generally have similar results on Lurker and Karathress in specific. Fights like Rage Winterchill are also great opportunities to let it all hang out.
Overview of the fight.
http://www.lossendil.com/wws/?report=l4a4nhbapglas
My personal stats, 1412 DPS according to WWS.
http://www.lossendil.com/wws/?report=l4a4nhbapglas&a=4
I generally have similar results on Lurker and Karathress in specific. Fights like Rage Winterchill are also great opportunities to let it all hang out.
I think i found out why crit is preferred when fully buffed. when fully buffed, you gain flask of relentless assault, bom, bs, tsa, wf, bok... all of which boost your ap a lot. yet you gain very little crit (lotp, bok). you gain so much ap that it starts diminishing in value quickly and crit becomes more important. it's also a good solo stat because you will already have bs on yourself and you'll need more crit to make up for it.
for this reason, i'll be stacking crit gems with the increased crit dmg meta (while still getting socket bonus if needed). i also personally like seeing a lot of crits on my screen so this is kinda biased lol.
for this reason, i'll be stacking crit gems with the increased crit dmg meta (while still getting socket bonus if needed). i also personally like seeing a lot of crits on my screen so this is kinda biased lol.
| Group setup was enhancement shammy + rogue + rogue + feral druid, so GoA was used |
Edited onPatch 2.1.2
| Group setup was enhancement shammy + rogue + rogue + feral druid, so GoA was used |
The Wf totem for the 2 rogues and single warrior >>>> GoA for all 5. Shaman was probably just being greedy about his own DPS.
And holy crap at svagftw's gear.
Svag
That battle or berserk stance stats? If it's berserk, you don't have that much more AP/crit then me, and i have you beat in hit. If it's battle.....ZOMG?
The hidden stat here is haste...i think you have about 8% or so worth.
On a side note...here's our WWS report of VR from last night. Second kill for our guild.
Lost MT at 50%, and a second tank at 25%. All the rogues died at 50% or something, hence the wonky meter. Killed him with 5 seconds to spare before enrage.
I was fairly disappointed in the performance of the rest of the raid frankly.
Last edited by Calgar : 06/28/07 at 11:25 AM.
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Originally Posted by shadowscion
you gain so much ap that it starts diminishing in value quickly and crit becomes more important.
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I think he means to say, that after a certain point you get larger DPS increases from crit then AP. They are mutually beneficial stats obviously.
Going from 1500-1600 AP is a larger overall dps increase percent wise then going from 3100-3200. He would choose to stack a bunch of crit rating @ the 3100 mark instead of AP, as you likely get larger returns at that point.
Going from 1500-1600 AP is a larger overall dps increase percent wise then going from 3100-3200. He would choose to stack a bunch of crit rating @ the 3100 mark instead of AP, as you likely get larger returns at that point.
[quote=Calgar;404471]I think he means to say, that after a certain point you get larger DPS increases from crit then AP. They are mutually beneficial stats obviously./QUOTE]
And it depends on your build. With axe spec, I can hit mid-40s with crit so I prefer stacking attack power then.
And it depends on your build. With axe spec, I can hit mid-40s with crit so I prefer stacking attack power then.
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Originally Posted by ikillyouheal
Wrong, going from 0% crit to 5% crit will give you the same DPS-upgrade as going from 30% crit to 35% crit, assuming that all your other stats stay the same.
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Yes, other things equal, if you do 100 DPS with 0 crit, and going from 0 to 5 crit gives you 5 DPS, then going from 30 to 35 should also give you 5 DPS, but 5 DPS is not 5% of the 130 you were doing when you had 30 crit, but it IS 5% of the 100 you were doing when you had 0 crit. See what I'm saying?
So I recently took the dive and decided to give this whole DW Fury thing a try.
I have my own personal windfury totem, and my DPS has gone up in comparison to 2-hand.
However I'm completely new to this, what type of rotation should I be using with DW?
With 2-hand it was simply a matter of slamming after white hits, and BT/WW when rage allowed.
With DW it seems like BT/WW, but what about after that? When do I use Heroic Strike? Etc.
(Fun side note, leveled 2-hand maces and 1-hand maces from 300->350 in 30 min in Blasted Lands, 235 intel gear ftw).
I have my own personal windfury totem, and my DPS has gone up in comparison to 2-hand.
However I'm completely new to this, what type of rotation should I be using with DW?
With 2-hand it was simply a matter of slamming after white hits, and BT/WW when rage allowed.
With DW it seems like BT/WW, but what about after that? When do I use Heroic Strike? Etc.
(Fun side note, leveled 2-hand maces and 1-hand maces from 300->350 in 30 min in Blasted Lands, 235 intel gear ftw).
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Originally Posted by Emeraude
So I recently took the dive and decided to give this whole DW Fury thing a try.
I have my own personal windfury totem, and my DPS has gone up in comparison to 2-hand. However I'm completely new to this, what type of rotation should I be using with DW? With 2-hand it was simply a matter of slamming after white hits, and BT/WW when rage allowed. With DW it seems like BT/WW, but what about after that? When do I use Heroic Strike? Etc. (Fun side note, leveled 2-hand maces and 1-hand maces from 300->350 in 30 min in Blasted Lands, 235 intel gear ftw). |
DPS Warrior Spreadsheet
Post #1260
I'm guessing you cant use any of these spreadsheets without having excel??
DW Fury really doesnt have a set "cycle" so much as a priority, but its the same idea as a 2h, your first priority is keeping BT or MS on CD, then WW if BT CD isn't up, toss in a rampage if both are on cooldown and its duration is <8 seconds or so, maybe less depending on how high your crit rate is. And any excess rage goes to HS (instead of slam as a rage dump with a 2H), or cleave is it is an especially threat sensitive fight or if youre really high on ktm (90%+ of MT). It's really tough for me to call it a "cycle" just due to variances in when you crit to how much rage you have, or a bad string of miss/dodge leaving your rage-starved, etc.
http://img204.imageshack.us/img204/5...7202801le6.jpg
Okay I'm definitely 100% sure Sword Spec can proc off itself as the link there shows although I'm not too sure if that was a treble proc or a double proc following a single proc within a second.
Okay I'm definitely 100% sure Sword Spec can proc off itself as the link there shows although I'm not too sure if that was a treble proc or a double proc following a single proc within a second.
Edited onPatch 2.1.2
read the title of the thread and was wondering, what stat will be the most important in terms of increasing your dps in the future? with the addition of static haste rating increases and static armor penetration increases, do str and crit lose their title as best dps stat for warriors?
i'm a MS/Slam dps warrior and i know that there will be times where my attack speed will be too fast to fit in a MS/WW/hamstring in between each slam (flurry + mongoose + bloodlust + haste rating), so i'm guessing that at that point, haste will diminish in value for me. for non-slam builds, haste rating is much beter as i believe it does not decrease slam's cast time and there's no diminishing point. what's haste rating's dps per stat budget at compared to other dps stats? also consider that the current rage formula is affected by weapon speed so haste rating doesn't seem as good as str or crit for rage generation.
as for armor penetration, it seems kinda weird that it's best against clothies like shade of aran. seems like using an armor penetration rating system would work much better, where you penetrate armor by % rather than by hard numbers. but anyhow, against an average boss with average armor, is armor penetration more dps per stat budget than other stats like str or crit?
and one last question, i read that crit is the most dps per stat budget but i also read that crit is .94 dps value whereas str has 1 dps value. which one is correct for what type of situation? as a warrior with 3% increased crit dmg meta gem, flurry, deep wounds, impale, sword spec, blessing of kings, and wf, would crit be better than str (no imp zerker stance)?
the spreadsheet doesn't support 2h dps so i figured this would be the best place to find
these answers.
Edit: i guess what i'm really asking for is if we can update the spreadsheet to include haste, armor penetration, new gems/gear, 2h builds, etc? is anyone working on this right now? how soon can we expect an updated one up here?
i'm a MS/Slam dps warrior and i know that there will be times where my attack speed will be too fast to fit in a MS/WW/hamstring in between each slam (flurry + mongoose + bloodlust + haste rating), so i'm guessing that at that point, haste will diminish in value for me. for non-slam builds, haste rating is much beter as i believe it does not decrease slam's cast time and there's no diminishing point. what's haste rating's dps per stat budget at compared to other dps stats? also consider that the current rage formula is affected by weapon speed so haste rating doesn't seem as good as str or crit for rage generation.
as for armor penetration, it seems kinda weird that it's best against clothies like shade of aran. seems like using an armor penetration rating system would work much better, where you penetrate armor by % rather than by hard numbers. but anyhow, against an average boss with average armor, is armor penetration more dps per stat budget than other stats like str or crit?
and one last question, i read that crit is the most dps per stat budget but i also read that crit is .94 dps value whereas str has 1 dps value. which one is correct for what type of situation? as a warrior with 3% increased crit dmg meta gem, flurry, deep wounds, impale, sword spec, blessing of kings, and wf, would crit be better than str (no imp zerker stance)?
the spreadsheet doesn't support 2h dps so i figured this would be the best place to find
these answers.
Edit: i guess what i'm really asking for is if we can update the spreadsheet to include haste, armor penetration, new gems/gear, 2h builds, etc? is anyone working on this right now? how soon can we expect an updated one up here?
Last edited by shadowscion : 06/27/07 at 5:48 AM.
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Originally Posted by Davia
And any excess rage goes to HS (instead of slam as a rage dump with a 2H), or cleave is it is an especially threat sensitive fight or if youre really high on ktm (90%+ of MT).
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SlamSpam or Slam>MS?
hey guys, first post here, so be gentle ^^
i'm a 2hand lover, been dw-fury for a week, didnt like it
my normal damage cycle is
whitehit > slam >(if eccess rage)> MS/WW
i was wondering if it would be more efficient to do 2 slams instead of a MS, as its 2 yellow hits with +140 dmg each, as opposed to 1 hit with +210 dmg and one white hit
as i think weaponspeed is very important in this, i'm using merciless glad's greatsword with no flurry or haste gear, and imp slam ofc
would the gains of +70 dmg, no glancing, impale bonus and having the white after the slam come sooner than the whithit after the slam>ms+white offset the damage lost from losing 1 white hit in rage?
i'm a 2hand lover, been dw-fury for a week, didnt like it
my normal damage cycle is
whitehit > slam >(if eccess rage)> MS/WW
i was wondering if it would be more efficient to do 2 slams instead of a MS, as its 2 yellow hits with +140 dmg each, as opposed to 1 hit with +210 dmg and one white hit
as i think weaponspeed is very important in this, i'm using merciless glad's greatsword with no flurry or haste gear, and imp slam ofc
would the gains of +70 dmg, no glancing, impale bonus and having the white after the slam come sooner than the whithit after the slam>ms+white offset the damage lost from losing 1 white hit in rage?
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Originally Posted by Frostshokk
I'm guessing you cant use any of these spreadsheets without having excel??
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Originally Posted by KYA1337
hey guys, first post here, so be gentle ^^
i'm a 2hand lover, been dw-fury for a week, didnt like it my normal damage cycle is whitehit > slam >(if eccess rage)> MS/WW i was wondering if it would be more efficient to do 2 slams instead of a MS, as its 2 yellow hits with +140 dmg each, as opposed to 1 hit with +210 dmg and one white hit as i think weaponspeed is very important in this, i'm using merciless glad's greatsword with no flurry or haste gear, and imp slam ofc would the gains of +70 dmg, no glancing, impale bonus and having the white after the slam come sooner than the whithit after the slam>ms+white offset the damage lost from losing 1 white hit in rage? |
I really have no "order" for my 2h dps. Rage is consistent per say, but you with a 2her you tend to go from 0-10 rage to full with WF and white hits. Keep ms and ww on cool down. Always try to work a slam in immediately after your white hits.
Another question I would like answered if possible. I dps as 33/28 a lot of the times in our raids. And I tend to be either number 2 or three on almost every fight that isn't an aoe heavy fight(Morogrim). I'm curious if other people see dps warriors beating casters. Or do my casters just suck that much. The usual group setup for the melee is dps warrior/rogue/rogue/rogue/shaman. the casters usually have a shaman and a spriest with them and I can still beat them almost every time on any fight but morogrim in all of ssc.
Also, I tried 2h fury for Voidreaver last night and liked it a lot 19/42/0 seems like a solid 2h fury build for any warrior. I would suggest other warriors try it out that like 2h more than dw for dps.
Another question I would like answered if possible. I dps as 33/28 a lot of the times in our raids. And I tend to be either number 2 or three on almost every fight that isn't an aoe heavy fight(Morogrim). I'm curious if other people see dps warriors beating casters. Or do my casters just suck that much. The usual group setup for the melee is dps warrior/rogue/rogue/rogue/shaman. the casters usually have a shaman and a spriest with them and I can still beat them almost every time on any fight but morogrim in all of ssc.
Also, I tried 2h fury for Voidreaver last night and liked it a lot 19/42/0 seems like a solid 2h fury build for any warrior. I would suggest other warriors try it out that like 2h more than dw for dps.
We have a dps warrior consistently beating casters as well he is a DWer but to answer your question it sounds like it is not completely out of the ordinary
DPS warriors can top damage meters, no question about it, but how efficiently do you do it? i was suprised yesterday to overaggro magtheridon after the tank had 1 min of aggro, i was just using my normal priority system and no WF either, yet was sustaining 1.1k DPS, however next try i was only at 950 yet nothing changed, wierd but true but i didnt overaggro at least. Reason i overaggroed was KTM wasnt reset as RL thought it wasnt possible to overaggro, neither did i, until then anyways ^ Anyways to answer your question who comes top depends on group compsistions player skill and how the boss works, im consistently top on some fights yet find it hard to get top 5 in others. But yes warrior DPS can surpass casters, and by quite alot some times.
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Originally Posted by Lalar
I really have no "order" for my 2h dps. Rage is consistent per say, but you with a 2her you tend to go from 0-10 rage to full with WF and white hits. Keep ms and ww on cool down. Always try to work a slam in immediately after your white hits.
Another question I would like answered if possible. I dps as 33/28 a lot of the times in our raids. And I tend to be either number 2 or three on almost every fight that isn't an aoe heavy fight(Morogrim). I'm curious if other people see dps warriors beating casters. Or do my casters just suck that much. The usual group setup for the melee is dps warrior/rogue/rogue/rogue/shaman. the casters usually have a shaman and a spriest with them and I can still beat them almost every time on any fight but morogrim in all of ssc. Also, I tried 2h fury for Voidreaver last night and liked it a lot 19/42/0 seems like a solid 2h fury build for any warrior. I would suggest other warriors try it out that like 2h more than dw for dps. |
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Originally Posted by Rishina
i was just using my normal priority system and no WF either, yet was sustaining 1.1k DPS, however next try i was only at 950 yet nothing changed, wierd but true but i didnt overaggro at least.
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i have no idea, like i said i got aggro and the next try i was back down to a more normal level of 950ish, before death at 27% from prison collapse + knockback into flames anyways. and no not 20% banish, i overaggroed at around 45% and im still not sure how the hell it happened. my crit percentage was unusually high about 48% registered on damage meters ( normally 40%ish) but thats it. i wasnt on clicking duty, just sustained DPS from 100% to 45% then overaggro and die, then tank got hit by cleave + normal attack and died . prioty i used was always keep rampage + BS up, BT> WW then hamstring in between. using cooldowns when availble exluding recky . Group setup was enhancement shammy + rogue + rogue + feral druid, so GoA was used If it happens again il try and figure out what i did, but i think it may have just been fluke. had WF today for basically the first time ever in SSC, i love it but aggro is then a problem sometimes.
. prioty i used was always keep rampage + BS up, BT> WW then hamstring in between. using cooldowns when availble exluding recky . Group setup was enhancement shammy + rogue + rogue + feral druid, so GoA was used If it happens again il try and figure out what i did, but i think it may have just been fluke. had WF today for basically the first time ever in SSC, i love it but aggro is then a problem sometimes.Edited onPatch 2.1.2
Just a screenshot to show how insane fury warriors can be when we're allowed to go all out on low armor targets. (Other warrior is ms/flurry at the moment due to arena qualifiers, maybe a nice comparision as he was in the same group as me and hit the same targets)
3 x heroism + Enhancement shaman + BM hunter = 2000 (sustained) dps over almost 4 minutes.
Never had so much fun in a long time.
3 x heroism + Enhancement shaman + BM hunter = 2000 (sustained) dps over almost 4 minutes.
Never had so much fun in a long time.
Last edited by svagftw : 06/27/07 at 9:34 PM.
Someone requested seeing a DW Fury warrior doing over 1200 DPS on a fight, just offering up a WWS to show that it is indeed possible. Personally I think Solarian is a favorable fight, I could never do anything close to this Kael without worrying over aggro, even with a Prism.
Overview of the fight.
http://www.lossendil.com/wws/?report=l4a4nhbapglas
My personal stats, 1412 DPS according to WWS.
http://www.lossendil.com/wws/?report=l4a4nhbapglas&a=4
I generally have similar results on Lurker and Karathress in specific. Fights like Rage Winterchill are also great opportunities to let it all hang out.
Overview of the fight.
http://www.lossendil.com/wws/?report=l4a4nhbapglas
My personal stats, 1412 DPS according to WWS.
http://www.lossendil.com/wws/?report=l4a4nhbapglas&a=4
I generally have similar results on Lurker and Karathress in specific. Fights like Rage Winterchill are also great opportunities to let it all hang out.
I think i found out why crit is preferred when fully buffed. when fully buffed, you gain flask of relentless assault, bom, bs, tsa, wf, bok... all of which boost your ap a lot. yet you gain very little crit (lotp, bok). you gain so much ap that it starts diminishing in value quickly and crit becomes more important. it's also a good solo stat because you will already have bs on yourself and you'll need more crit to make up for it.
for this reason, i'll be stacking crit gems with the increased crit dmg meta (while still getting socket bonus if needed). i also personally like seeing a lot of crits on my screen so this is kinda biased lol.
for this reason, i'll be stacking crit gems with the increased crit dmg meta (while still getting socket bonus if needed). i also personally like seeing a lot of crits on my screen so this is kinda biased lol.
| Group setup was enhancement shammy + rogue + rogue + feral druid, so GoA was used |
Edited onPatch 2.1.2
| Group setup was enhancement shammy + rogue + rogue + feral druid, so GoA was used |
The Wf totem for the 2 rogues and single warrior >>>> GoA for all 5. Shaman was probably just being greedy about his own DPS.
And holy crap at svagftw's gear.
Svag
That battle or berserk stance stats? If it's berserk, you don't have that much more AP/crit then me, and i have you beat in hit. If it's battle.....ZOMG?
The hidden stat here is haste...i think you have about 8% or so worth.
On a side note...here's our WWS report of VR from last night. Second kill for our guild.
Lost MT at 50%, and a second tank at 25%. All the rogues died at 50% or something, hence the wonky meter. Killed him with 5 seconds to spare before enrage.
I was fairly disappointed in the performance of the rest of the raid frankly.
Last edited by Calgar : 06/28/07 at 11:25 AM.
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Originally Posted by shadowscion
you gain so much ap that it starts diminishing in value quickly and crit becomes more important.
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I think he means to say, that after a certain point you get larger DPS increases from crit then AP. They are mutually beneficial stats obviously.
Going from 1500-1600 AP is a larger overall dps increase percent wise then going from 3100-3200. He would choose to stack a bunch of crit rating @ the 3100 mark instead of AP, as you likely get larger returns at that point.
Going from 1500-1600 AP is a larger overall dps increase percent wise then going from 3100-3200. He would choose to stack a bunch of crit rating @ the 3100 mark instead of AP, as you likely get larger returns at that point.
[quote=Calgar;404471]I think he means to say, that after a certain point you get larger DPS increases from crit then AP. They are mutually beneficial stats obviously./QUOTE]
And it depends on your build. With axe spec, I can hit mid-40s with crit so I prefer stacking attack power then.
And it depends on your build. With axe spec, I can hit mid-40s with crit so I prefer stacking attack power then.
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Originally Posted by svagftw
3 x heroism ... almost 4 minutes.
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No, AP is AP.
From a pure percentage standpoint you have halved the overall AP increase in your latter example. Regardless, that AP will still add the same DPS increase it did from 15k to 16k.
Also I'm wondering with the latest crazes being over 2hand Imp Slam and Haste effects if we'll see the return of the Iron Counterweight any time soon.
From a pure percentage standpoint you have halved the overall AP increase in your latter example. Regardless, that AP will still add the same DPS increase it did from 15k to 16k.
Also I'm wondering with the latest crazes being over 2hand Imp Slam and Haste effects if we'll see the return of the Iron Counterweight any time soon.
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Originally Posted by LodeRunner
Also I'm wondering with the latest crazes being over 2hand Imp Slam and Haste effects if we'll see the return of the Iron Counterweight any time soon.
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Also, with imp Slam, you can have the best of both worlds, sort of. A slow, hard-hitting weapon as well as a bang-bang speedy move.
Edited onPatch 2.1.2
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Originally Posted by Calgar
And holy crap at svagftw's gear.
Svag That battle or berserk stance stats? If it's berserk, you don't have that much more AP/crit then me, and i have you beat in hit. If it's battle.....ZOMG? The hidden stat here is haste...i think you have about 8% or so worth. |
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Originally Posted by Trazhenko
Must be nice to have better than 50% uptime on bloodlust o_O.
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Last edited by svagftw : 06/28/07 at 12:01 PM.
Edited onPatch 2.1.2
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No, AP is AP. From a pure percentage standpoint you have halved the overall AP increase in your latter example. Regardless, that AP will still add the same DPS increase it did from 15k to 16k. Also I'm wondering with the latest crazes being over 2hand Imp Slam and Haste effects if we'll see the return of the Iron Counterweight any time soon. |
@SVAG We should try to model the effects of haste and -armor penetration, to see how they stack up to more crit/hit/AP.
Last edited by Calgar : 06/28/07 at 12:08 PM.
Edited onPatch 2.1.2
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Originally Posted by LodeRunner
No, AP is AP.
From a pure percentage standpoint you have halved the overall AP increase in your latter example. Regardless, that AP will still add the same DPS increase it did from 15k to 16k. Also I'm wondering with the latest crazes being over 2hand Imp Slam and Haste effects if we'll see the return of the Iron Counterweight any time soon. |
Last edited by Graul : 06/28/07 at 12:47 PM.
Edited onPatch 2.1.2
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Originally Posted by Calgar
@SVAG We should try to model the effects of haste and -armor penetration, to see how they stack up to more crit/hit/AP.
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1% haste = 1% more whitehits(+heroics), so if you hit 10000 times with 1% haste, you get 100 extra hits. Say 800 damage per hit on average, 80000 extra damage from white hits and heroics
1% hit = also 1% more white hits(but doesn't work on heroics, would give you less white swings and heroics in the same amount of time, this is very hard to model), 10000-(amount of heroics) hits with 1% hit, z extra hits, x damage per hit, y extra damage from just white hits
This is very, very basic math, but I really have no idea how to model it.
Help? ^^
[edit] What does the spreadsheet say about haste compared to hit? It doesn't work in openoffice *sigh*
Last edited by svagftw : 06/28/07 at 1:02 PM.
I don't think that haste is even in the spread sheet
Hit = more white damage (assuming not hit capped)
Haste = more white damage, and more heroics (assuming constant pounding of HS...personally i don't think anyone uses HS enough to actually benefit from this though)
As for -armor, i've heard it said that armor protection is a linear scale of protection up to the 75% cap, even though it takes more and more armor to gain 1% mitigation. I think this has to do with something in my following example.
going from 1-2% armor reduction is doubling your mitigation, true, but you are only going from 99 to 98% damage "let through", which is little more then a 1% increase in survivability. On the other hand, going from 74-75% is again, a 1% increase in mitigation, but you are going from 26-25% damage "let through" which is an increase of nearly 4%. It's that "let through" (Inverse armor mitigation?) that causes the armor formula to scale strangely as you get more and more armor.
Theoretically, we should be able to track down the armor formula (Link anyone? Search isn't helping me out here) and work out an equation for how effective -armor is, with variables for amount of -armor, and the mob's starting armor (Which is REALLY easy to calculate with bloodthirst, since it hits for a static amount)
Hit = more white damage (assuming not hit capped)
Haste = more white damage, and more heroics (assuming constant pounding of HS...personally i don't think anyone uses HS enough to actually benefit from this though)
As for -armor, i've heard it said that armor protection is a linear scale of protection up to the 75% cap, even though it takes more and more armor to gain 1% mitigation. I think this has to do with something in my following example.
going from 1-2% armor reduction is doubling your mitigation, true, but you are only going from 99 to 98% damage "let through", which is little more then a 1% increase in survivability. On the other hand, going from 74-75% is again, a 1% increase in mitigation, but you are going from 26-25% damage "let through" which is an increase of nearly 4%. It's that "let through" (Inverse armor mitigation?) that causes the armor formula to scale strangely as you get more and more armor.
Theoretically, we should be able to track down the armor formula (Link anyone? Search isn't helping me out here) and work out an equation for how effective -armor is, with variables for amount of -armor, and the mob's starting armor (Which is REALLY easy to calculate with bloodthirst, since it hits for a static amount)
Haste doesn't seem to be modeled correctly on the spreadsheet. It actually shows a drop in DPS replacing a Bloodlust Brooch with the Dragnonspine Trophy and also only shows Dragonstrike in it's basic form without any haste effects.
It doesn't make sense that the spreadsheet doesn't appreciate haste/-armor like it should.
Flurry(Haste) is the talent that kept Warriors competitive in Raid DPS for all of WoW Classic.
-armor trinkets were also always amazing as well for increasing DPS, and let's not get into the beginning of BC when every Rogue was running around with The Night Blade.
They're amazing stats.
Flurry(Haste) is the talent that kept Warriors competitive in Raid DPS for all of WoW Classic.
-armor trinkets were also always amazing as well for increasing DPS, and let's not get into the beginning of BC when every Rogue was running around with The Night Blade.
They're amazing stats.
Edited onPatch 2.1.2
I always say " maybe use WF here and there " but he just complains to the raid leader and tells me to stop telling him how to play his class. Only reason I had it today and yesterday was we had two enchancement shamans in the group. 14% of overall damage is very nice, most ive managed is about 13%. Such a great feeling though, and 2k DPS sustained.. jesus I cant wait till I get that level of gear ^.
Armor ignore is good, but I think haste may be better. Ive not yet got any armor ignore items ( used to have the night blade way back and it was fun PVPing against casters with - armor value :P ) but I dont know how well it would work in a raid setting, especially as its effect depends on the mobs armor and is there any way to determine a mobs / bosses armor value?
On another note, the effectiveness of dragonspine trophy is hard to calculate as the proc rate is 1.7 PPM from listed weapon speed, the proc rate is increased by flurry = instant attacks, so for example say you have a 2.7 and 2.0 speed wep, the proc rate is 1.7 with 60/2.7 + 60/2.0 attacks ( 60 seconds / by listed wep speed ), instants also increase this so say 10 BT in 60 seconds + WW ect, that also increases the proc rate. as does WF. Its one awesome trinket though thats for sure.
Armor ignore is good, but I think haste may be better. Ive not yet got any armor ignore items ( used to have the night blade way back and it was fun PVPing against casters with - armor value :P ) but I dont know how well it would work in a raid setting, especially as its effect depends on the mobs armor and is there any way to determine a mobs / bosses armor value?
On another note, the effectiveness of dragonspine trophy is hard to calculate as the proc rate is 1.7 PPM from listed weapon speed, the proc rate is increased by flurry = instant attacks, so for example say you have a 2.7 and 2.0 speed wep, the proc rate is 1.7 with 60/2.7 + 60/2.0 attacks ( 60 seconds / by listed wep speed ), instants also increase this so say 10 BT in 60 seconds + WW ect, that also increases the proc rate. as does WF. Its one awesome trinket though thats for sure.
Last edited by Rishina : 06/28/07 at 8:31 PM. Reason: Added text + correction of grammar.
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Originally Posted by Calgar
Theoretically, we should be able to track down the armor formula (Link anyone? Search isn't helping me out here) and work out an equation for how effective -armor is, with variables for amount of -armor, and the mob's starting armor (Which is REALLY easy to calculate with bloodthirst, since it hits for a static amount)
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According to http://www.wowwiki.com/Armor;
Levels 60+ DR% = Armor / (Armor+400+85*(Level+4.5*(Level-59)))
As an example, 5000 armor on a level 73 mob is 29.5% reduction
Void Reaver has 1500 armor after sunders + cor + ff.
According to the formula I posted he has 1500/(1500+400+85*(73+4.5*(73-59))) mitigation, or 11.1%.
With my neck as an example of armor mitigation, he has 1325 after the necks reduction of 175. 1325/(1325+400+85*(73+4.5*(73-59))) = 9.9% reduction
A hit of 1000 would without the neck be 889 damage. With the neck a hit of the same would be 901 instead. A 1.3% damage increase. Nothing huge. But lets see what happens on a low armor target.
High Astromancer Solarian has 200 armor after sunder + cor + ff. A 1.7% reduction. After my neck she's down to 0.2%. That's a 1000 hit reduced to 983 before neck and 998 after. 1.5% damage increase.
Conclusion? I don't know. Armor penetration is good, although maybe not very noticable on its own. Lets see what happens when we stack it.
Void Reaver again. 1500 armor. But this time we have 500 armor penetration from gear (not very hard to get if you're in BT). Before he has 11.1%, after he has 7.7%. A hit of 1000 reduced to 923. 3.8% damage increase.
I put this information together during raidtime so please tell me if I did anything wrong, but I checked it through and didn't see anything.
Thoughts?
From your data Svag It seems stacking haste is more beneficial.
It's about 1% haste = 10 haste rating, and 1% haste should provide roughly a 1% damage increase.
If you have the pillagers gauntlets (38) + belt of seething fury ( 38 ) + swiftsteel shoulders (35 ) + band of devastation ( 31 ) + swiftsteel bracers ( 27 ) and 2x swiftsteel bludgeon ( 2x 27 ) thats a net total of 223 haste rating, approx 20% haste.
That's like having a 20% flurry all the time. When combined with other +haste effects such as heroism, flurry ect. That's some insane damage. It also scales extremely well, as your DPS increases, the damage added by your haste also does.
Haste has the same effect all the time, whereas armor penetration as shown by your data, experiences a form of diminishing returns where the armor value of the target greatly effects the DPS gained from armor penetration.
Can anyone expand on that?
It's about 1% haste = 10 haste rating, and 1% haste should provide roughly a 1% damage increase.
If you have the pillagers gauntlets (38) + belt of seething fury ( 38 ) + swiftsteel shoulders (35 ) + band of devastation ( 31 ) + swiftsteel bracers ( 27 ) and 2x swiftsteel bludgeon ( 2x 27 ) thats a net total of 223 haste rating, approx 20% haste.
That's like having a 20% flurry all the time. When combined with other +haste effects such as heroism, flurry ect. That's some insane damage. It also scales extremely well, as your DPS increases, the damage added by your haste also does.
Haste has the same effect all the time, whereas armor penetration as shown by your data, experiences a form of diminishing returns where the armor value of the target greatly effects the DPS gained from armor penetration.
Can anyone expand on that?
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Originally Posted by Graul
Yes, AP is AP and will add the same increase in damage. The thing is though, that's all it does. After you reach the point where raid buffed your incoming rage is almost more than you can actually spend it without using a fast weapon and Heroic Strike on every swing, wouldn't adding 1% crit will have more of an impact than adding more AP? Crit and AP are obviously synergetic and scale with how each stat is independantly. If you can already do X DPS, how is adding +Y going to be more beneficial than adding +% after a point, especially when you consider abilities that rely on crits? And to the best of my knowledge, even raid buffed it's impossible to reach the crit cap now with current itemization.
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so i'm basically gearing myself with crit and buffing myself with ap, just to even it out.
Maybe I'm looking at this the wrong way, but it seems that, at least below the hit cap, 1% haste and 1% hit are roughly analogous in terms of the amount of contributed damage. haste should come out slightly ahead due to the way that multiple attack speed increasing affects multiply, and also the fact that it takes about 5 less points of rating for 1% haste than for 1% hit. Is there something I'm missing here other than the cheaper itemization for haste that makes it much better for DPS than other available stats?
I tend to run around the 55% mark for white/heroic strike damage. Our shaman has been MIA the last week or two, so I don't know how much more of my damage would be based off auto attack if I had windfury. Without WF though, 1% haste for me should work out to roughly .55% more damage? Probably a little more, since I can freely turn any excess rage into heroic strike, for an effectively lower main hand hit cap.
If the reduce armor wasn't so much more expensive itemization wise, I would much prefer it due to it effecting all damage equally, besides bleeds. However it looks like the choice is between 2-3% haste, or ~1% increased damage from armor reduction, if even that much, in most of the slots where there is a choice between the two.
I tend to run around the 55% mark for white/heroic strike damage. Our shaman has been MIA the last week or two, so I don't know how much more of my damage would be based off auto attack if I had windfury. Without WF though, 1% haste for me should work out to roughly .55% more damage? Probably a little more, since I can freely turn any excess rage into heroic strike, for an effectively lower main hand hit cap.
If the reduce armor wasn't so much more expensive itemization wise, I would much prefer it due to it effecting all damage equally, besides bleeds. However it looks like the choice is between 2-3% haste, or ~1% increased damage from armor reduction, if even that much, in most of the slots where there is a choice between the two.
Exactly right Katrael
As for the -armor discussion, if SVAG's numbers are correct (and i have no reason to believe they aren't, they seem to mesh with known values) then -armor isn't as great a stat as i'd hoped it would be.
I used Icon of unyielding courage for a fairly long time, and when you activated the -600 armor effect on it, it was a noticeable increase in damage of at least 8-10%. I remember examples of me using it on Aran, and landing 3300+ bloodthrists when i had 200-300 less AP then i do now.
As for the -armor discussion, if SVAG's numbers are correct (and i have no reason to believe they aren't, they seem to mesh with known values) then -armor isn't as great a stat as i'd hoped it would be.
I used Icon of unyielding courage for a fairly long time, and when you activated the -600 armor effect on it, it was a noticeable increase in damage of at least 8-10%. I remember examples of me using it on Aran, and landing 3300+ bloodthrists when i had 200-300 less AP then i do now.
Edited onPatch 2.1.2
Let's assume the extra haste doesn't give you any extra rage and lets also assume it affects 50% of your damage.
If I do 1000 dps with only autoswings and 0 haste, doing 60 auto swings per minute with an average of 1000 damage per hit (to build up some real fact here I'd need to check exact stats... anyone care parsing a log and calculating it?).
5% haste would give you 3 more swings per minute or another 3000 damage per minute, 50 dps. or a linear 5% increase of your white dps. If that would be 50% of my damage then 5% haste would be 2.5% overall damage increase (going from 2000 to 2050 dps). Very simple. The more attacks you do per minute the more extra swings you gain from haste, though. Combatlog parse of a full encounter aaaaaanyone?
However this also doesn't take into account extra rage generated so it's flawed, so overall damage gain is probably a little bit higher.
If he has exactly 600 armor (4.8% mitigation), and you reduce it to zero, a hit of 3000 would gain 144 damage from that trinket, 5.04% damage increase (which is A LOT from a trinket activate)
If I do 1000 dps with only autoswings and 0 haste, doing 60 auto swings per minute with an average of 1000 damage per hit (to build up some real fact here I'd need to check exact stats... anyone care parsing a log and calculating it?).
5% haste would give you 3 more swings per minute or another 3000 damage per minute, 50 dps. or a linear 5% increase of your white dps. If that would be 50% of my damage then 5% haste would be 2.5% overall damage increase (going from 2000 to 2050 dps). Very simple. The more attacks you do per minute the more extra swings you gain from haste, though. Combatlog parse of a full encounter aaaaaanyone?
However this also doesn't take into account extra rage generated so it's flawed, so overall damage gain is probably a little bit higher.
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Originally Posted by Calgar
I used Icon of unyielding courage for a fairly long time, and when you activated the -600 armor effect on it, it was a noticeable increase in damage of at least 8-10%.
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Last edited by svagftw : 06/29/07 at 10:44 AM.
Hi,
about armor reduction is Badge of the Swarmguard (from Sartura, reduce armor by 200, stack up 6 times for 30s, 3mn cooldown) still interesting at 70 ? I don't wear it since BC so I really dunno if the other trinkets I have are better in raid situation (Hourglass of the Unraveller and Abacus of Violent Odds).
Any advice ?
Thanks !
about armor reduction is Badge of the Swarmguard (from Sartura, reduce armor by 200, stack up 6 times for 30s, 3mn cooldown) still interesting at 70 ? I don't wear it since BC so I really dunno if the other trinkets I have are better in raid situation (Hourglass of the Unraveller and Abacus of Violent Odds).
Any advice ?
Thanks !
| I always say " maybe use WF here and there " but he just complains to the raid leader and tells me to stop telling him how to play his class. Only reason I had it today and yesterday was we had two enchancement shamans in the group. 14% of overall damage is very nice, most ive managed is about 13%. Such a great feeling though, and 2k DPS sustained.. jesus I cant wait till I get that level of gear ^. |
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Originally Posted by Ondskapt
Hi,
about armor reduction is Badge of the Swarmguard (from Sartura, reduce armor by 200, stack up 6 times for 30s, 3mn cooldown) still interesting at 70 ? I don't wear it since BC so I really dunno if the other trinkets I have are better in raid situation (Hourglass of the Unraveller and Abacus of Violent Odds). Any advice ? Thanks ! |
delete plz.
I've read a lot through this thread but there's one thing i have yet to really see answered, and that's the arguments as to what's the best dps spec for pve. I've generally thought that much like Classic WoW, dual wield fury still topped dps while 2h fury was made more viable. But I've recently been hearing about how great 31/30 for dps (and mabye even 33/18 to grab blood frenzy)
I'm really curious on some opinions on this. Is it as simple as do which ever you enjoy more and benefits more from your weapons/gear? Or is it more like one spec is better as gear scales?
I'm really curious on some opinions on this. Is it as simple as do which ever you enjoy more and benefits more from your weapons/gear? Or is it more like one spec is better as gear scales?
Im afraid people are still really in the testing and gearing phase of dps warriors, and other then just playing with the spreadsheet, its hard to give you exact answers on which build is better. I'm fairly certain, that just like in vanilla wow, fury will eventually outpace MS because of the double scaling of your gear with 2 weapons. However, atm, you are correct, most end game guild dps warriors that I have seen are specced 33/28 for imp slam build.
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Originally Posted by Colan
I've read a lot through this thread but there's one thing i have yet to really see answered, and that's the arguments as to what's the best dps spec for pve. I've generally thought that much like Classic WoW, dual wield fury still topped dps while 2h fury was made more viable. But I've recently been hearing about how great 31/30 for dps (and mabye even 33/18 to grab blood frenzy)
I'm really curious on some opinions on this. Is it as simple as do which ever you enjoy more and benefits more from your weapons/gear? Or is it more like one spec is better as gear scales? |
DW Fury destroys any MS or 2H Fury build. End of story. I've done 33/28 and done decent dmg, but as DW Fury I can top the charts on almost any fight.
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Originally Posted by svagftw
3 x heroism ... almost 4 minutes.
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No, AP is AP.
From a pure percentage standpoint you have halved the overall AP increase in your latter example. Regardless, that AP will still add the same DPS increase it did from 15k to 16k.
Also I'm wondering with the latest crazes being over 2hand Imp Slam and Haste effects if we'll see the return of the Iron Counterweight any time soon.
From a pure percentage standpoint you have halved the overall AP increase in your latter example. Regardless, that AP will still add the same DPS increase it did from 15k to 16k.
Also I'm wondering with the latest crazes being over 2hand Imp Slam and Haste effects if we'll see the return of the Iron Counterweight any time soon.
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Originally Posted by LodeRunner
Also I'm wondering with the latest crazes being over 2hand Imp Slam and Haste effects if we'll see the return of the Iron Counterweight any time soon.
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Also, with imp Slam, you can have the best of both worlds, sort of. A slow, hard-hitting weapon as well as a bang-bang speedy move.
Edited onPatch 2.1.2
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Originally Posted by Calgar
And holy crap at svagftw's gear.
Svag That battle or berserk stance stats? If it's berserk, you don't have that much more AP/crit then me, and i have you beat in hit. If it's battle.....ZOMG? The hidden stat here is haste...i think you have about 8% or so worth. |
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Originally Posted by Trazhenko
Must be nice to have better than 50% uptime on bloodlust o_O.
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Last edited by svagftw : 06/28/07 at 12:01 PM.
Edited onPatch 2.1.2
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No, AP is AP. From a pure percentage standpoint you have halved the overall AP increase in your latter example. Regardless, that AP will still add the same DPS increase it did from 15k to 16k. Also I'm wondering with the latest crazes being over 2hand Imp Slam and Haste effects if we'll see the return of the Iron Counterweight any time soon. |
@SVAG We should try to model the effects of haste and -armor penetration, to see how they stack up to more crit/hit/AP.
Last edited by Calgar : 06/28/07 at 12:08 PM.
Edited onPatch 2.1.2
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Originally Posted by LodeRunner
No, AP is AP.
From a pure percentage standpoint you have halved the overall AP increase in your latter example. Regardless, that AP will still add the same DPS increase it did from 15k to 16k. Also I'm wondering with the latest crazes being over 2hand Imp Slam and Haste effects if we'll see the return of the Iron Counterweight any time soon. |
Last edited by Graul : 06/28/07 at 12:47 PM.
Edited onPatch 2.1.2
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Originally Posted by Calgar
@SVAG We should try to model the effects of haste and -armor penetration, to see how they stack up to more crit/hit/AP.
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1% haste = 1% more whitehits(+heroics), so if you hit 10000 times with 1% haste, you get 100 extra hits. Say 800 damage per hit on average, 80000 extra damage from white hits and heroics
1% hit = also 1% more white hits(but doesn't work on heroics, would give you less white swings and heroics in the same amount of time, this is very hard to model), 10000-(amount of heroics) hits with 1% hit, z extra hits, x damage per hit, y extra damage from just white hits
This is very, very basic math, but I really have no idea how to model it.
Help? ^^
[edit] What does the spreadsheet say about haste compared to hit? It doesn't work in openoffice *sigh*
Last edited by svagftw : 06/28/07 at 1:02 PM.
I don't think that haste is even in the spread sheet
Hit = more white damage (assuming not hit capped)
Haste = more white damage, and more heroics (assuming constant pounding of HS...personally i don't think anyone uses HS enough to actually benefit from this though)
As for -armor, i've heard it said that armor protection is a linear scale of protection up to the 75% cap, even though it takes more and more armor to gain 1% mitigation. I think this has to do with something in my following example.
going from 1-2% armor reduction is doubling your mitigation, true, but you are only going from 99 to 98% damage "let through", which is little more then a 1% increase in survivability. On the other hand, going from 74-75% is again, a 1% increase in mitigation, but you are going from 26-25% damage "let through" which is an increase of nearly 4%. It's that "let through" (Inverse armor mitigation?) that causes the armor formula to scale strangely as you get more and more armor.
Theoretically, we should be able to track down the armor formula (Link anyone? Search isn't helping me out here) and work out an equation for how effective -armor is, with variables for amount of -armor, and the mob's starting armor (Which is REALLY easy to calculate with bloodthirst, since it hits for a static amount)
Hit = more white damage (assuming not hit capped)
Haste = more white damage, and more heroics (assuming constant pounding of HS...personally i don't think anyone uses HS enough to actually benefit from this though)
As for -armor, i've heard it said that armor protection is a linear scale of protection up to the 75% cap, even though it takes more and more armor to gain 1% mitigation. I think this has to do with something in my following example.
going from 1-2% armor reduction is doubling your mitigation, true, but you are only going from 99 to 98% damage "let through", which is little more then a 1% increase in survivability. On the other hand, going from 74-75% is again, a 1% increase in mitigation, but you are going from 26-25% damage "let through" which is an increase of nearly 4%. It's that "let through" (Inverse armor mitigation?) that causes the armor formula to scale strangely as you get more and more armor.
Theoretically, we should be able to track down the armor formula (Link anyone? Search isn't helping me out here) and work out an equation for how effective -armor is, with variables for amount of -armor, and the mob's starting armor (Which is REALLY easy to calculate with bloodthirst, since it hits for a static amount)
Haste doesn't seem to be modeled correctly on the spreadsheet. It actually shows a drop in DPS replacing a Bloodlust Brooch with the Dragnonspine Trophy and also only shows Dragonstrike in it's basic form without any haste effects.
It doesn't make sense that the spreadsheet doesn't appreciate haste/-armor like it should.
Flurry(Haste) is the talent that kept Warriors competitive in Raid DPS for all of WoW Classic.
-armor trinkets were also always amazing as well for increasing DPS, and let's not get into the beginning of BC when every Rogue was running around with The Night Blade.
They're amazing stats.
Flurry(Haste) is the talent that kept Warriors competitive in Raid DPS for all of WoW Classic.
-armor trinkets were also always amazing as well for increasing DPS, and let's not get into the beginning of BC when every Rogue was running around with The Night Blade.
They're amazing stats.
Edited onPatch 2.1.2
I always say " maybe use WF here and there " but he just complains to the raid leader and tells me to stop telling him how to play his class. Only reason I had it today and yesterday was we had two enchancement shamans in the group. 14% of overall damage is very nice, most ive managed is about 13%. Such a great feeling though, and 2k DPS sustained.. jesus I cant wait till I get that level of gear ^.
Armor ignore is good, but I think haste may be better. Ive not yet got any armor ignore items ( used to have the night blade way back and it was fun PVPing against casters with - armor value :P ) but I dont know how well it would work in a raid setting, especially as its effect depends on the mobs armor and is there any way to determine a mobs / bosses armor value?
On another note, the effectiveness of dragonspine trophy is hard to calculate as the proc rate is 1.7 PPM from listed weapon speed, the proc rate is increased by flurry = instant attacks, so for example say you have a 2.7 and 2.0 speed wep, the proc rate is 1.7 with 60/2.7 + 60/2.0 attacks ( 60 seconds / by listed wep speed ), instants also increase this so say 10 BT in 60 seconds + WW ect, that also increases the proc rate. as does WF. Its one awesome trinket though thats for sure.
Armor ignore is good, but I think haste may be better. Ive not yet got any armor ignore items ( used to have the night blade way back and it was fun PVPing against casters with - armor value :P ) but I dont know how well it would work in a raid setting, especially as its effect depends on the mobs armor and is there any way to determine a mobs / bosses armor value?
On another note, the effectiveness of dragonspine trophy is hard to calculate as the proc rate is 1.7 PPM from listed weapon speed, the proc rate is increased by flurry = instant attacks, so for example say you have a 2.7 and 2.0 speed wep, the proc rate is 1.7 with 60/2.7 + 60/2.0 attacks ( 60 seconds / by listed wep speed ), instants also increase this so say 10 BT in 60 seconds + WW ect, that also increases the proc rate. as does WF. Its one awesome trinket though thats for sure.
Last edited by Rishina : 06/28/07 at 8:31 PM. Reason: Added text + correction of grammar.
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Originally Posted by Calgar
Theoretically, we should be able to track down the armor formula (Link anyone? Search isn't helping me out here) and work out an equation for how effective -armor is, with variables for amount of -armor, and the mob's starting armor (Which is REALLY easy to calculate with bloodthirst, since it hits for a static amount)
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According to http://www.wowwiki.com/Armor;
Levels 60+ DR% = Armor / (Armor+400+85*(Level+4.5*(Level-59)))
As an example, 5000 armor on a level 73 mob is 29.5% reduction
Void Reaver has 1500 armor after sunders + cor + ff.
According to the formula I posted he has 1500/(1500+400+85*(73+4.5*(73-59))) mitigation, or 11.1%.
With my neck as an example of armor mitigation, he has 1325 after the necks reduction of 175. 1325/(1325+400+85*(73+4.5*(73-59))) = 9.9% reduction
A hit of 1000 would without the neck be 889 damage. With the neck a hit of the same would be 901 instead. A 1.3% damage increase. Nothing huge. But lets see what happens on a low armor target.
High Astromancer Solarian has 200 armor after sunder + cor + ff. A 1.7% reduction. After my neck she's down to 0.2%. That's a 1000 hit reduced to 983 before neck and 998 after. 1.5% damage increase.
Conclusion? I don't know. Armor penetration is good, although maybe not very noticable on its own. Lets see what happens when we stack it.
Void Reaver again. 1500 armor. But this time we have 500 armor penetration from gear (not very hard to get if you're in BT). Before he has 11.1%, after he has 7.7%. A hit of 1000 reduced to 923. 3.8% damage increase.
I put this information together during raidtime so please tell me if I did anything wrong, but I checked it through and didn't see anything.
Thoughts?
From your data Svag It seems stacking haste is more beneficial.
It's about 1% haste = 10 haste rating, and 1% haste should provide roughly a 1% damage increase.
If you have the pillagers gauntlets (38) + belt of seething fury ( 38 ) + swiftsteel shoulders (35 ) + band of devastation ( 31 ) + swiftsteel bracers ( 27 ) and 2x swiftsteel bludgeon ( 2x 27 ) thats a net total of 223 haste rating, approx 20% haste.
That's like having a 20% flurry all the time. When combined with other +haste effects such as heroism, flurry ect. That's some insane damage. It also scales extremely well, as your DPS increases, the damage added by your haste also does.
Haste has the same effect all the time, whereas armor penetration as shown by your data, experiences a form of diminishing returns where the armor value of the target greatly effects the DPS gained from armor penetration.
Can anyone expand on that?
It's about 1% haste = 10 haste rating, and 1% haste should provide roughly a 1% damage increase.
If you have the pillagers gauntlets (38) + belt of seething fury ( 38 ) + swiftsteel shoulders (35 ) + band of devastation ( 31 ) + swiftsteel bracers ( 27 ) and 2x swiftsteel bludgeon ( 2x 27 ) thats a net total of 223 haste rating, approx 20% haste.
That's like having a 20% flurry all the time. When combined with other +haste effects such as heroism, flurry ect. That's some insane damage. It also scales extremely well, as your DPS increases, the damage added by your haste also does.
Haste has the same effect all the time, whereas armor penetration as shown by your data, experiences a form of diminishing returns where the armor value of the target greatly effects the DPS gained from armor penetration.
Can anyone expand on that?
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Originally Posted by Graul
Yes, AP is AP and will add the same increase in damage. The thing is though, that's all it does. After you reach the point where raid buffed your incoming rage is almost more than you can actually spend it without using a fast weapon and Heroic Strike on every swing, wouldn't adding 1% crit will have more of an impact than adding more AP? Crit and AP are obviously synergetic and scale with how each stat is independantly. If you can already do X DPS, how is adding +Y going to be more beneficial than adding +% after a point, especially when you consider abilities that rely on crits? And to the best of my knowledge, even raid buffed it's impossible to reach the crit cap now with current itemization.
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so i'm basically gearing myself with crit and buffing myself with ap, just to even it out.
Maybe I'm looking at this the wrong way, but it seems that, at least below the hit cap, 1% haste and 1% hit are roughly analogous in terms of the amount of contributed damage. haste should come out slightly ahead due to the way that multiple attack speed increasing affects multiply, and also the fact that it takes about 5 less points of rating for 1% haste than for 1% hit. Is there something I'm missing here other than the cheaper itemization for haste that makes it much better for DPS than other available stats?
I tend to run around the 55% mark for white/heroic strike damage. Our shaman has been MIA the last week or two, so I don't know how much more of my damage would be based off auto attack if I had windfury. Without WF though, 1% haste for me should work out to roughly .55% more damage? Probably a little more, since I can freely turn any excess rage into heroic strike, for an effectively lower main hand hit cap.
If the reduce armor wasn't so much more expensive itemization wise, I would much prefer it due to it effecting all damage equally, besides bleeds. However it looks like the choice is between 2-3% haste, or ~1% increased damage from armor reduction, if even that much, in most of the slots where there is a choice between the two.
I tend to run around the 55% mark for white/heroic strike damage. Our shaman has been MIA the last week or two, so I don't know how much more of my damage would be based off auto attack if I had windfury. Without WF though, 1% haste for me should work out to roughly .55% more damage? Probably a little more, since I can freely turn any excess rage into heroic strike, for an effectively lower main hand hit cap.
If the reduce armor wasn't so much more expensive itemization wise, I would much prefer it due to it effecting all damage equally, besides bleeds. However it looks like the choice is between 2-3% haste, or ~1% increased damage from armor reduction, if even that much, in most of the slots where there is a choice between the two.
Exactly right Katrael
As for the -armor discussion, if SVAG's numbers are correct (and i have no reason to believe they aren't, they seem to mesh with known values) then -armor isn't as great a stat as i'd hoped it would be.
I used Icon of unyielding courage for a fairly long time, and when you activated the -600 armor effect on it, it was a noticeable increase in damage of at least 8-10%. I remember examples of me using it on Aran, and landing 3300+ bloodthrists when i had 200-300 less AP then i do now.
As for the -armor discussion, if SVAG's numbers are correct (and i have no reason to believe they aren't, they seem to mesh with known values) then -armor isn't as great a stat as i'd hoped it would be.
I used Icon of unyielding courage for a fairly long time, and when you activated the -600 armor effect on it, it was a noticeable increase in damage of at least 8-10%. I remember examples of me using it on Aran, and landing 3300+ bloodthrists when i had 200-300 less AP then i do now.
Edited onPatch 2.1.2
Let's assume the extra haste doesn't give you any extra rage and lets also assume it affects 50% of your damage.
If I do 1000 dps with only autoswings and 0 haste, doing 60 auto swings per minute with an average of 1000 damage per hit (to build up some real fact here I'd need to check exact stats... anyone care parsing a log and calculating it?).
5% haste would give you 3 more swings per minute or another 3000 damage per minute, 50 dps. or a linear 5% increase of your white dps. If that would be 50% of my damage then 5% haste would be 2.5% overall damage increase (going from 2000 to 2050 dps). Very simple. The more attacks you do per minute the more extra swings you gain from haste, though. Combatlog parse of a full encounter aaaaaanyone?
However this also doesn't take into account extra rage generated so it's flawed, so overall damage gain is probably a little bit higher.
If he has exactly 600 armor (4.8% mitigation), and you reduce it to zero, a hit of 3000 would gain 144 damage from that trinket, 5.04% damage increase (which is A LOT from a trinket activate)
If I do 1000 dps with only autoswings and 0 haste, doing 60 auto swings per minute with an average of 1000 damage per hit (to build up some real fact here I'd need to check exact stats... anyone care parsing a log and calculating it?).
5% haste would give you 3 more swings per minute or another 3000 damage per minute, 50 dps. or a linear 5% increase of your white dps. If that would be 50% of my damage then 5% haste would be 2.5% overall damage increase (going from 2000 to 2050 dps). Very simple. The more attacks you do per minute the more extra swings you gain from haste, though. Combatlog parse of a full encounter aaaaaanyone?
However this also doesn't take into account extra rage generated so it's flawed, so overall damage gain is probably a little bit higher.
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Originally Posted by Calgar
I used Icon of unyielding courage for a fairly long time, and when you activated the -600 armor effect on it, it was a noticeable increase in damage of at least 8-10%.
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Last edited by svagftw : 06/29/07 at 10:44 AM.
Hi,
about armor reduction is Badge of the Swarmguard (from Sartura, reduce armor by 200, stack up 6 times for 30s, 3mn cooldown) still interesting at 70 ? I don't wear it since BC so I really dunno if the other trinkets I have are better in raid situation (Hourglass of the Unraveller and Abacus of Violent Odds).
Any advice ?
Thanks !
about armor reduction is Badge of the Swarmguard (from Sartura, reduce armor by 200, stack up 6 times for 30s, 3mn cooldown) still interesting at 70 ? I don't wear it since BC so I really dunno if the other trinkets I have are better in raid situation (Hourglass of the Unraveller and Abacus of Violent Odds).
Any advice ?
Thanks !
| I always say " maybe use WF here and there " but he just complains to the raid leader and tells me to stop telling him how to play his class. Only reason I had it today and yesterday was we had two enchancement shamans in the group. 14% of overall damage is very nice, most ive managed is about 13%. Such a great feeling though, and 2k DPS sustained.. jesus I cant wait till I get that level of gear ^. |
|
Originally Posted by Ondskapt
Hi,
about armor reduction is Badge of the Swarmguard (from Sartura, reduce armor by 200, stack up 6 times for 30s, 3mn cooldown) still interesting at 70 ? I don't wear it since BC so I really dunno if the other trinkets I have are better in raid situation (Hourglass of the Unraveller and Abacus of Violent Odds). Any advice ? Thanks ! |
delete plz.
I've read a lot through this thread but there's one thing i have yet to really see answered, and that's the arguments as to what's the best dps spec for pve. I've generally thought that much like Classic WoW, dual wield fury still topped dps while 2h fury was made more viable. But I've recently been hearing about how great 31/30 for dps (and mabye even 33/18 to grab blood frenzy)
I'm really curious on some opinions on this. Is it as simple as do which ever you enjoy more and benefits more from your weapons/gear? Or is it more like one spec is better as gear scales?
I'm really curious on some opinions on this. Is it as simple as do which ever you enjoy more and benefits more from your weapons/gear? Or is it more like one spec is better as gear scales?
Im afraid people are still really in the testing and gearing phase of dps warriors, and other then just playing with the spreadsheet, its hard to give you exact answers on which build is better. I'm fairly certain, that just like in vanilla wow, fury will eventually outpace MS because of the double scaling of your gear with 2 weapons. However, atm, you are correct, most end game guild dps warriors that I have seen are specced 33/28 for imp slam build.
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Originally Posted by Colan
I've read a lot through this thread but there's one thing i have yet to really see answered, and that's the arguments as to what's the best dps spec for pve. I've generally thought that much like Classic WoW, dual wield fury still topped dps while 2h fury was made more viable. But I've recently been hearing about how great 31/30 for dps (and mabye even 33/18 to grab blood frenzy)
I'm really curious on some opinions on this. Is it as simple as do which ever you enjoy more and benefits more from your weapons/gear? Or is it more like one spec is better as gear scales? |
DW Fury destroys any MS or 2H Fury build. End of story. I've done 33/28 and done decent dmg, but as DW Fury I can top the charts on almost any fight.
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Originally Posted by Davia
DW Fury destroys any MS or 2H Fury build. End of story. I've done 33/28 and done decent dmg, but as DW Fury I can top the charts on almost any fight.
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|
Originally Posted by Davia
DW Fury destroys any MS or 2H Fury build. End of story. I've done 33/28 and done decent dmg, but as DW Fury I can top the charts on almost any fight.
|
I've always dps'd as DW fury.
I've been 1st Dps from chromaggus to Saphiron before TBC.
In 25 men raids I top dps while dwing my dual 97 dps weapons.
My problem is that I do too much threat. I've tryed fetish of the sand reaver, cleave instead of heroic strike, harmstring instead of cleave I still often grab aggro.
Last week I respec'd 33 / 28.
I can go all out, I top the dps meters and other melees get 4% more damage.
I've been 1st Dps from chromaggus to Saphiron before TBC.
In 25 men raids I top dps while dwing my dual 97 dps weapons.
My problem is that I do too much threat. I've tryed fetish of the sand reaver, cleave instead of heroic strike, harmstring instead of cleave I still often grab aggro.
Last week I respec'd 33 / 28.
I can go all out, I top the dps meters and other melees get 4% more damage.
You don't top dmg meters. It's impossible, pure DPS classes can always do more damage.
Edited onPatch 2.1.2
Arms is very good atm and i dont see it being out paced by fury by much if at all.
I'm currently arms spec with blood frenzy as we generally raid with 4 hunters 3 rogues 2 feral druids and 2 prot warriors and myself - Thats alot of physical dps.
My arms stats unbuffed:
1862 AP
38.18% crit
116 hit rating
My fury stats unbuffed:
1970
201 hit rating
33% crit
I was using gorehowl for arms and decapitator and malchazeen for fury.
Fury dps was ok but not much better than arms dps in raids and adding in blood frenzy put arms way ahead.
As a note im doing about 800dps as arms without a shaman of any kind.
I really think it depends on your raid setup if fury is worthwhile going, I personally found it underwhelming except for the 1800dps i pulled on Illhoof in a karazhan run this week.
So i would not say DW fury destroy's arms at all.
I'm currently arms spec with blood frenzy as we generally raid with 4 hunters 3 rogues 2 feral druids and 2 prot warriors and myself - Thats alot of physical dps.
My arms stats unbuffed:
1862 AP
38.18% crit
116 hit rating
My fury stats unbuffed:
1970
201 hit rating
33% crit
I was using gorehowl for arms and decapitator and malchazeen for fury.
Fury dps was ok but not much better than arms dps in raids and adding in blood frenzy put arms way ahead.
As a note im doing about 800dps as arms without a shaman of any kind.
I really think it depends on your raid setup if fury is worthwhile going, I personally found it underwhelming except for the 1800dps i pulled on Illhoof in a karazhan run this week.
So i would not say DW fury destroy's arms at all.
Last edited by Paa : 07/02/07 at 11:58 PM.
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Originally Posted by Ondskapt
Hi,
about armor reduction is Badge of the Swarmguard (from Sartura, reduce armor by 200, stack up 6 times for 30s, 3mn cooldown) still interesting at 70 ? I don't wear it since BC so I really dunno if the other trinkets I have are better in raid situation (Hourglass of the Unraveller and Abacus of Violent Odds). Any advice ? Thanks ! |
Rishina, tell your Shaman that there's no way that Flametongue/Poisons+GoA is more group dps than WF alone if you have a decent warrior in your group. This isn't even bringing Searing Totem into it.
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Originally Posted by Davia
DW Fury destroys any MS or 2H Fury build. End of story. I've done 33/28 and done decent dmg, but as DW Fury I can top the charts on almost any fight.
|
Inspired from Svag we brought one more tank to Akama this week (2nd kill) and I went in as fury. Indeed we had one wave of adds less than on the first kill and the Shade of Akama went down faster as well.
http://www.lossendil.com/wws/?report=avypoevyfzrwm
This dps meters are less tweaked, we had no BL rotation (in this attempt no BL at all, since it was on cooldown from a previous attempt), and no BM hunter. Still as a "hobby fury warrior" sustaining 1500 dps was well worth the change in tactics and incredible fun to play as well (you just have to love 4k bloodthirst crits on those squishy channelers). Still can't beat our rogues though =)
Concerning the spec discussion: 33/28 is just more situational in my opinion. A full fury warrior delivers his dps as soon as he starts to hit something, while a blood frenzy/MS warrior needs the whole raid to hit the same target as him to reach the same potential. Apparently on "split dps" fights like Lurker or Akama (or on bleed immune mobs like Supremus obviously) a fury warrior has more dps potential.
The new dps stats like haste and ignore armor will get very interesting for 2H builds in my opinion (2H fury as well as 33/28), since those builds need less hit gear and the trade off for taking the new stats will be less severe.
http://www.lossendil.com/wws/?report=avypoevyfzrwm
This dps meters are less tweaked, we had no BL rotation (in this attempt no BL at all, since it was on cooldown from a previous attempt), and no BM hunter. Still as a "hobby fury warrior" sustaining 1500 dps was well worth the change in tactics and incredible fun to play as well (you just have to love 4k bloodthirst crits on those squishy channelers). Still can't beat our rogues though =)
Concerning the spec discussion: 33/28 is just more situational in my opinion. A full fury warrior delivers his dps as soon as he starts to hit something, while a blood frenzy/MS warrior needs the whole raid to hit the same target as him to reach the same potential. Apparently on "split dps" fights like Lurker or Akama (or on bleed immune mobs like Supremus obviously) a fury warrior has more dps potential.
The new dps stats like haste and ignore armor will get very interesting for 2H builds in my opinion (2H fury as well as 33/28), since those builds need less hit gear and the trade off for taking the new stats will be less severe.
Edited onPatch 2.1.2
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Originally Posted by panny
I'm not a warrior, but I would love this trinket as Enhancement. Last time I checked, Badge of the Swarmguard doesn't share a trinket cooldown with other trinkets. Meaning you could pop it with your Abacus/Bloodlust Badge/whatever. Everyone knows that having AP/crit/-armor/haste buffs at the same time is beneficial as you get a mutliplying effect. If I can, I try to wait until I have dual Mongoose, Dragonstrike proc, and Hourglass proc before I activate Bloodlust and Bloodlust Badge. Having at least two trinkets for max on demand dps for damage windows and vulnerabilites could be very valuable for certain encounters.
Rishina, tell your Shaman that there's no way that Flametongue/Poisons+GoA is more group dps than WF alone if you have a decent warrior in your group. This isn't even bringing Searing Totem into it. |
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Originally Posted by D4vE
Inspired from Svag we brought one more tank to Akama this week (2nd kill) and I went in as fury. Indeed we had one wave of adds less than on the first kill and the Shade of Akama went down faster as well.
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Originally Posted by Paa
As a note im doing about 800dps as arms without a shaman of any kind.
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Originally Posted by D4vE
Concerning the spec discussion: 33/28 is just more situational in my opinion. A full fury warrior delivers his dps as soon as he starts to hit something, while a blood frenzy/MS warrior needs the whole raid to hit the same target as him to reach the same potential. Apparently on "split dps" fights like Lurker or Akama (or on bleed immune mobs like Supremus obviously) a fury warrior has more dps potential.
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| The new dps stats like haste and ignore armor will get very interesting for 2H builds in my opinion (2H fury as well as 33/28), since those builds need less hit gear and the trade off for taking the new stats will be less severe. |
Last edited by svagftw : 07/03/07 at 8:08 AM.
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Originally Posted by svagftw
Popping trinkets on cooldown is better than waiting a minute for the other one to refresh.
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Edited onPatch 2.1.2
As long as you know you will stay in melee for full duration, there's no reason not to pop trinkets and cooldowns. The exception being deathwish, which is worth waiting a minute popping if you're close to execute range.
And to add something new to discuss.. heroism timing!
We would just use heroism on melee group at the same time as casters, sometime in the middle of the fight, until one of our Naj'entus kills where enhancement shammy forgot to pop it midfight so we got it in execute range instead. We had 2 fury warriors in the group and the result was.. amazing, 100 rage executes every 1.5 seconds. Coupled with recklessness and deathwish we both did close to 4000 dps the last 20%.
Since then we always tell him to save it, you should do the same, tell your shammy to give it a shot, wait with heroism until execute range. I'm sure you'll like it.
And to add something new to discuss.. heroism timing!
We would just use heroism on melee group at the same time as casters, sometime in the middle of the fight, until one of our Naj'entus kills where enhancement shammy forgot to pop it midfight so we got it in execute range instead. We had 2 fury warriors in the group and the result was.. amazing, 100 rage executes every 1.5 seconds. Coupled with recklessness and deathwish we both did close to 4000 dps the last 20%.
Since then we always tell him to save it, you should do the same, tell your shammy to give it a shot, wait with heroism until execute range. I'm sure you'll like it.
Last edited by svagftw : 07/03/07 at 11:14 AM.
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Originally Posted by svagftw
Just out of my head..
1% haste = 1% more whitehits(+heroics), so if you hit 10000 times with 1% haste, you get 100 extra hits. Say 800 damage per hit on average, 80000 extra damage from white hits and heroics 1% hit = also 1% more white hits(but doesn't work on heroics, would give you less white swings and heroics in the same amount of time, this is very hard to model), 10000-(amount of heroics) hits with 1% hit, z extra hits, x damage per hit, y extra damage from just white hits This is very, very basic math, but I really have no idea how to model it. Help? ^^ [edit] What does the spreadsheet say about haste compared to hit? It doesn't work in openoffice *sigh* |
On the 1% haste thing. on 10000 hits your said you'd get 100 extra hits.
Wouldn't it be more proper to say that over the amount of time it takes you to do normal 10000 attacks with 1% haste you have 100 more attacks. Because you'd still have the normal amount of chance to miss.
Edited onPatch 2.1.2
Yeah, of course, sorry. That's what I meant obviously but I chose the wrong word, 100 extra swings would be more appropiate and it was really just a quick overview of how haste would work, you'd get parries and dodges on those swings as well. Thanks for pointing that out though.
That makes me think though, since hits you get from +hit can't miss/get parried/dodged (in the one roll theory) is haste really that much better? Other than the fact it's much cheaper on the itembudget.
[edit] Actually, hasted hits have the chance to be crits, +hitted hits don't. So I guess it's still better.
That makes me think though, since hits you get from +hit can't miss/get parried/dodged (in the one roll theory) is haste really that much better? Other than the fact it's much cheaper on the itembudget.
[edit] Actually, hasted hits have the chance to be crits, +hitted hits don't. So I guess it's still better.
Last edited by svagftw : 07/03/07 at 1:02 PM.
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Originally Posted by svagftw
Listen to the cow! I have yet to survive Supremus though.
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http://www.lossendil.com/wws/?report=bpiqwonn4rteg
And yes if you check healing and consumables taken compared to the rogues, it is pretty much a lottery =)
Damn cloak of shadows, or 15% more dmg taken in zerk stance+DW
I usually have more damage done than that on supremus, and I die on like 50%. That fight is just.. horrible 
Edited onPatch 2.1.2
I recently got a Cataclysm's Edge from Archimonde and decided to give 31/30 a go just to see how it would perform for me, I've been a Fury warrior for pretty much my entire raiding life and bluntly thought to myself that it would not even come close to my Fury DPS. How wrong was I, to be honest I'm quite sure I do more DPS as 31/30 than I did with 17/44 which I found extremely odd to say the least, I run with the standard melee group consisting of a Enhancement Shaman and a Feral Druid and man do I pump out the DPS.
I think a big part of it could be down to the incredible Windfury procs I receive from Cataclym's coupled with sword proc just makes the extra white damage supreme compared to my Talon of the Phoenix. I usually run with 13.13% haste and around -700 armor reduction and I can certainly say it makes up for the hit and crit I will lose.
Sorry I have no proof of what I say but as 31/30 I could come top 3 (rogues-_-) on pretty much any fight except supremus for obvious reasons! So in short I'm saying once you get a great 2h try out 31/30, you won't be disappointed because I sure as hell wasn't :P You can check my 31/30 stats and gear in Armory and my Fury stats are as followed:
(Zerker stance)
29% crit
2066 AP
14% hit
13.13% haste
Talon of the Phoenix MH
Swiftsteel Bludgeon OH
As fury I use the standard BT>WW(1 point imp WW)>Hamstring rotation and very rarely use heroic unless the MT is dishing out some serious threat as obviously I can catch up during execute range.
I'm most likely going to try Fury again once I get the mace from Supremus as I feel that my DPS style is heavily based on Windfury and that mace has an extremely high top end and 2.8 speed. So we will see, but for now in my opinion 31/30 > 17/44 _IF_ you have one of the top end 2 handers.
I think a big part of it could be down to the incredible Windfury procs I receive from Cataclym's coupled with sword proc just makes the extra white damage supreme compared to my Talon of the Phoenix. I usually run with 13.13% haste and around -700 armor reduction and I can certainly say it makes up for the hit and crit I will lose.
Sorry I have no proof of what I say but as 31/30 I could come top 3 (rogues-_-) on pretty much any fight except supremus for obvious reasons! So in short I'm saying once you get a great 2h try out 31/30, you won't be disappointed because I sure as hell wasn't :P You can check my 31/30 stats and gear in Armory and my Fury stats are as followed:
(Zerker stance)
29% crit
2066 AP
14% hit
13.13% haste
Talon of the Phoenix MH
Swiftsteel Bludgeon OH
As fury I use the standard BT>WW(1 point imp WW)>Hamstring rotation and very rarely use heroic unless the MT is dishing out some serious threat as obviously I can catch up during execute range.
I'm most likely going to try Fury again once I get the mace from Supremus as I feel that my DPS style is heavily based on Windfury and that mace has an extremely high top end and 2.8 speed. So we will see, but for now in my opinion 31/30 > 17/44 _IF_ you have one of the top end 2 handers.
Last edited by Jamm : 07/04/07 at 2:18 AM.
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Originally Posted by svagftw
Yeah, of course, sorry. That's what I meant obviously but I chose the wrong word, 100 extra swings would be more appropiate and it was really just a quick overview of how haste would work, you'd get parries and dodges on those swings as well. Thanks for pointing that out though.
That makes me think though, since hits you get from +hit can't miss/get parried/dodged (in the one roll theory) is haste really that much better? Other than the fact it's much cheaper on the itembudget. [edit] Actually, hasted hits have the chance to be crits, +hitted hits don't. So I guess it's still better. |
just wondering, does anyone use timelapse shard or shrouding potions at all?
Here's another question: What to do when you can probably find a cure for cancer quicker than you can convince the powers that be to give a shammy for windfury?
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Originally Posted by Randor
Here's another question: What to do when you can probably find a cure for cancer quicker than you can convince the powers that be to give a shammy for windfury?
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Mind you, if the powers that be are already refusing to give windfury to a warror then perhaps it is time you found new powers that be.
Edited onPatch 2.1.2
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Originally Posted by Jamm
As fury I use the standard BT>WW(1 point imp WW)>Hamstring rotation and very rarely use heroic unless the MT is dishing out some serious threat as obviously I can catch up during execute range.
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[edit] For example, on Anetheron last week the tank was for some reason not building enough threat. I was threatcapped from 100% to 0, 420k dmg done. The mortal strike warrior did 421k. But if you check the screenshot I posted earlier of Shade you'll see I did at least 500 dps more than him. But when he's fury specced he's usually a bit in front of me on meters.
Last edited by svagftw : 07/04/07 at 8:59 AM.
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Originally Posted by svagftw
If you don't use fury to it's full potential and you feel threat capped, of course you will do same dps as mortal strike. Also "top 3" doesn't say anything, you could be doing 1000 dps and be top 3 in some guilds. 1000 dps in Paci is barely top 10 on meters.
[edit] For example, on Anetheron last week the tank was for some reason not building enough threat. I was threatcapped from 100% to 0, 420k dmg done. The mortal strike warrior did 421k. But if you check the screenshot I posted earlier of Shade you'll see I did at least 500 dps more than him. But when he's fury specced he's usually a bit in front of me on meters. |
I have never used a shrouding potion or a timelapse shard and even if I did, they're only like 1k threat. Useless.
So what do you feel is the best way to manage threat? That is far and away the biggest issue I've been having is that I always feel like my threat is heavilly limiting what I'm capable of. When we do something like Solarian, where I don't think twice about threat, I clearly perform much better.
I just haven't found an effective way to manage it recently. Any suggestions?
I just haven't found an effective way to manage it recently. Any suggestions?
Give your tanks windfury and battle shout, tell them to stack +blockvalue gear. At least that's what we're doing different from most guilds.
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Originally Posted by Davia
DW Fury destroys any MS or 2H Fury build. End of story. I've done 33/28 and done decent dmg, but as DW Fury I can top the charts on almost any fight.
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Originally Posted by Davia
DW Fury destroys any MS or 2H Fury build. End of story. I've done 33/28 and done decent dmg, but as DW Fury I can top the charts on almost any fight.
|
I've always dps'd as DW fury.
I've been 1st Dps from chromaggus to Saphiron before TBC.
In 25 men raids I top dps while dwing my dual 97 dps weapons.
My problem is that I do too much threat. I've tryed fetish of the sand reaver, cleave instead of heroic strike, harmstring instead of cleave I still often grab aggro.
Last week I respec'd 33 / 28.
I can go all out, I top the dps meters and other melees get 4% more damage.
I've been 1st Dps from chromaggus to Saphiron before TBC.
In 25 men raids I top dps while dwing my dual 97 dps weapons.
My problem is that I do too much threat. I've tryed fetish of the sand reaver, cleave instead of heroic strike, harmstring instead of cleave I still often grab aggro.
Last week I respec'd 33 / 28.
I can go all out, I top the dps meters and other melees get 4% more damage.
You don't top dmg meters. It's impossible, pure DPS classes can always do more damage.
Edited onPatch 2.1.2
Arms is very good atm and i dont see it being out paced by fury by much if at all.
I'm currently arms spec with blood frenzy as we generally raid with 4 hunters 3 rogues 2 feral druids and 2 prot warriors and myself - Thats alot of physical dps.
My arms stats unbuffed:
1862 AP
38.18% crit
116 hit rating
My fury stats unbuffed:
1970
201 hit rating
33% crit
I was using gorehowl for arms and decapitator and malchazeen for fury.
Fury dps was ok but not much better than arms dps in raids and adding in blood frenzy put arms way ahead.
As a note im doing about 800dps as arms without a shaman of any kind.
I really think it depends on your raid setup if fury is worthwhile going, I personally found it underwhelming except for the 1800dps i pulled on Illhoof in a karazhan run this week.
So i would not say DW fury destroy's arms at all.
I'm currently arms spec with blood frenzy as we generally raid with 4 hunters 3 rogues 2 feral druids and 2 prot warriors and myself - Thats alot of physical dps.
My arms stats unbuffed:
1862 AP
38.18% crit
116 hit rating
My fury stats unbuffed:
1970
201 hit rating
33% crit
I was using gorehowl for arms and decapitator and malchazeen for fury.
Fury dps was ok but not much better than arms dps in raids and adding in blood frenzy put arms way ahead.
As a note im doing about 800dps as arms without a shaman of any kind.
I really think it depends on your raid setup if fury is worthwhile going, I personally found it underwhelming except for the 1800dps i pulled on Illhoof in a karazhan run this week.
So i would not say DW fury destroy's arms at all.
Last edited by Paa : 07/02/07 at 11:58 PM.
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Originally Posted by Ondskapt
Hi,
about armor reduction is Badge of the Swarmguard (from Sartura, reduce armor by 200, stack up 6 times for 30s, 3mn cooldown) still interesting at 70 ? I don't wear it since BC so I really dunno if the other trinkets I have are better in raid situation (Hourglass of the Unraveller and Abacus of Violent Odds). Any advice ? Thanks ! |
Rishina, tell your Shaman that there's no way that Flametongue/Poisons+GoA is more group dps than WF alone if you have a decent warrior in your group. This isn't even bringing Searing Totem into it.
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Originally Posted by Davia
DW Fury destroys any MS or 2H Fury build. End of story. I've done 33/28 and done decent dmg, but as DW Fury I can top the charts on almost any fight.
|
Inspired from Svag we brought one more tank to Akama this week (2nd kill) and I went in as fury. Indeed we had one wave of adds less than on the first kill and the Shade of Akama went down faster as well.
http://www.lossendil.com/wws/?report=avypoevyfzrwm
This dps meters are less tweaked, we had no BL rotation (in this attempt no BL at all, since it was on cooldown from a previous attempt), and no BM hunter. Still as a "hobby fury warrior" sustaining 1500 dps was well worth the change in tactics and incredible fun to play as well (you just have to love 4k bloodthirst crits on those squishy channelers). Still can't beat our rogues though =)
Concerning the spec discussion: 33/28 is just more situational in my opinion. A full fury warrior delivers his dps as soon as he starts to hit something, while a blood frenzy/MS warrior needs the whole raid to hit the same target as him to reach the same potential. Apparently on "split dps" fights like Lurker or Akama (or on bleed immune mobs like Supremus obviously) a fury warrior has more dps potential.
The new dps stats like haste and ignore armor will get very interesting for 2H builds in my opinion (2H fury as well as 33/28), since those builds need less hit gear and the trade off for taking the new stats will be less severe.
http://www.lossendil.com/wws/?report=avypoevyfzrwm
This dps meters are less tweaked, we had no BL rotation (in this attempt no BL at all, since it was on cooldown from a previous attempt), and no BM hunter. Still as a "hobby fury warrior" sustaining 1500 dps was well worth the change in tactics and incredible fun to play as well (you just have to love 4k bloodthirst crits on those squishy channelers). Still can't beat our rogues though =)
Concerning the spec discussion: 33/28 is just more situational in my opinion. A full fury warrior delivers his dps as soon as he starts to hit something, while a blood frenzy/MS warrior needs the whole raid to hit the same target as him to reach the same potential. Apparently on "split dps" fights like Lurker or Akama (or on bleed immune mobs like Supremus obviously) a fury warrior has more dps potential.
The new dps stats like haste and ignore armor will get very interesting for 2H builds in my opinion (2H fury as well as 33/28), since those builds need less hit gear and the trade off for taking the new stats will be less severe.
Edited onPatch 2.1.2
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Originally Posted by panny
I'm not a warrior, but I would love this trinket as Enhancement. Last time I checked, Badge of the Swarmguard doesn't share a trinket cooldown with other trinkets. Meaning you could pop it with your Abacus/Bloodlust Badge/whatever. Everyone knows that having AP/crit/-armor/haste buffs at the same time is beneficial as you get a mutliplying effect. If I can, I try to wait until I have dual Mongoose, Dragonstrike proc, and Hourglass proc before I activate Bloodlust and Bloodlust Badge. Having at least two trinkets for max on demand dps for damage windows and vulnerabilites could be very valuable for certain encounters.
Rishina, tell your Shaman that there's no way that Flametongue/Poisons+GoA is more group dps than WF alone if you have a decent warrior in your group. This isn't even bringing Searing Totem into it. |
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Originally Posted by D4vE
Inspired from Svag we brought one more tank to Akama this week (2nd kill) and I went in as fury. Indeed we had one wave of adds less than on the first kill and the Shade of Akama went down faster as well.
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Originally Posted by Paa
As a note im doing about 800dps as arms without a shaman of any kind.
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Originally Posted by D4vE
Concerning the spec discussion: 33/28 is just more situational in my opinion. A full fury warrior delivers his dps as soon as he starts to hit something, while a blood frenzy/MS warrior needs the whole raid to hit the same target as him to reach the same potential. Apparently on "split dps" fights like Lurker or Akama (or on bleed immune mobs like Supremus obviously) a fury warrior has more dps potential.
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| The new dps stats like haste and ignore armor will get very interesting for 2H builds in my opinion (2H fury as well as 33/28), since those builds need less hit gear and the trade off for taking the new stats will be less severe. |
Last edited by svagftw : 07/03/07 at 8:08 AM.
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Originally Posted by svagftw
Popping trinkets on cooldown is better than waiting a minute for the other one to refresh.
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Edited onPatch 2.1.2
As long as you know you will stay in melee for full duration, there's no reason not to pop trinkets and cooldowns. The exception being deathwish, which is worth waiting a minute popping if you're close to execute range.
And to add something new to discuss.. heroism timing!
We would just use heroism on melee group at the same time as casters, sometime in the middle of the fight, until one of our Naj'entus kills where enhancement shammy forgot to pop it midfight so we got it in execute range instead. We had 2 fury warriors in the group and the result was.. amazing, 100 rage executes every 1.5 seconds. Coupled with recklessness and deathwish we both did close to 4000 dps the last 20%.
Since then we always tell him to save it, you should do the same, tell your shammy to give it a shot, wait with heroism until execute range. I'm sure you'll like it.
And to add something new to discuss.. heroism timing!
We would just use heroism on melee group at the same time as casters, sometime in the middle of the fight, until one of our Naj'entus kills where enhancement shammy forgot to pop it midfight so we got it in execute range instead. We had 2 fury warriors in the group and the result was.. amazing, 100 rage executes every 1.5 seconds. Coupled with recklessness and deathwish we both did close to 4000 dps the last 20%.
Since then we always tell him to save it, you should do the same, tell your shammy to give it a shot, wait with heroism until execute range. I'm sure you'll like it.
Last edited by svagftw : 07/03/07 at 11:14 AM.
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Originally Posted by svagftw
Just out of my head..
1% haste = 1% more whitehits(+heroics), so if you hit 10000 times with 1% haste, you get 100 extra hits. Say 800 damage per hit on average, 80000 extra damage from white hits and heroics 1% hit = also 1% more white hits(but doesn't work on heroics, would give you less white swings and heroics in the same amount of time, this is very hard to model), 10000-(amount of heroics) hits with 1% hit, z extra hits, x damage per hit, y extra damage from just white hits This is very, very basic math, but I really have no idea how to model it. Help? ^^ [edit] What does the spreadsheet say about haste compared to hit? It doesn't work in openoffice *sigh* |
On the 1% haste thing. on 10000 hits your said you'd get 100 extra hits.
Wouldn't it be more proper to say that over the amount of time it takes you to do normal 10000 attacks with 1% haste you have 100 more attacks. Because you'd still have the normal amount of chance to miss.
Edited onPatch 2.1.2
Yeah, of course, sorry. That's what I meant obviously but I chose the wrong word, 100 extra swings would be more appropiate and it was really just a quick overview of how haste would work, you'd get parries and dodges on those swings as well. Thanks for pointing that out though.
That makes me think though, since hits you get from +hit can't miss/get parried/dodged (in the one roll theory) is haste really that much better? Other than the fact it's much cheaper on the itembudget.
[edit] Actually, hasted hits have the chance to be crits, +hitted hits don't. So I guess it's still better.
That makes me think though, since hits you get from +hit can't miss/get parried/dodged (in the one roll theory) is haste really that much better? Other than the fact it's much cheaper on the itembudget.
[edit] Actually, hasted hits have the chance to be crits, +hitted hits don't. So I guess it's still better.
Last edited by svagftw : 07/03/07 at 1:02 PM.
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Originally Posted by svagftw
Listen to the cow! I have yet to survive Supremus though.
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http://www.lossendil.com/wws/?report=bpiqwonn4rteg
And yes if you check healing and consumables taken compared to the rogues, it is pretty much a lottery =)
Damn cloak of shadows, or 15% more dmg taken in zerk stance+DW
I usually have more damage done than that on supremus, and I die on like 50%. That fight is just.. horrible
Edited onPatch 2.1.2
I recently got a Cataclysm's Edge from Archimonde and decided to give 31/30 a go just to see how it would perform for me, I've been a Fury warrior for pretty much my entire raiding life and bluntly thought to myself that it would not even come close to my Fury DPS. How wrong was I, to be honest I'm quite sure I do more DPS as 31/30 than I did with 17/44 which I found extremely odd to say the least, I run with the standard melee group consisting of a Enhancement Shaman and a Feral Druid and man do I pump out the DPS.
I think a big part of it could be down to the incredible Windfury procs I receive from Cataclym's coupled with sword proc just makes the extra white damage supreme compared to my Talon of the Phoenix. I usually run with 13.13% haste and around -700 armor reduction and I can certainly say it makes up for the hit and crit I will lose.
Sorry I have no proof of what I say but as 31/30 I could come top 3 (rogues-_-) on pretty much any fight except supremus for obvious reasons! So in short I'm saying once you get a great 2h try out 31/30, you won't be disappointed because I sure as hell wasn't :P You can check my 31/30 stats and gear in Armory and my Fury stats are as followed:
(Zerker stance)
29% crit
2066 AP
14% hit
13.13% haste
Talon of the Phoenix MH
Swiftsteel Bludgeon OH
As fury I use the standard BT>WW(1 point imp WW)>Hamstring rotation and very rarely use heroic unless the MT is dishing out some serious threat as obviously I can catch up during execute range.
I'm most likely going to try Fury again once I get the mace from Supremus as I feel that my DPS style is heavily based on Windfury and that mace has an extremely high top end and 2.8 speed. So we will see, but for now in my opinion 31/30 > 17/44 _IF_ you have one of the top end 2 handers.
I think a big part of it could be down to the incredible Windfury procs I receive from Cataclym's coupled with sword proc just makes the extra white damage supreme compared to my Talon of the Phoenix. I usually run with 13.13% haste and around -700 armor reduction and I can certainly say it makes up for the hit and crit I will lose.
Sorry I have no proof of what I say but as 31/30 I could come top 3 (rogues-_-) on pretty much any fight except supremus for obvious reasons! So in short I'm saying once you get a great 2h try out 31/30, you won't be disappointed because I sure as hell wasn't :P You can check my 31/30 stats and gear in Armory and my Fury stats are as followed:
(Zerker stance)
29% crit
2066 AP
14% hit
13.13% haste
Talon of the Phoenix MH
Swiftsteel Bludgeon OH
As fury I use the standard BT>WW(1 point imp WW)>Hamstring rotation and very rarely use heroic unless the MT is dishing out some serious threat as obviously I can catch up during execute range.
I'm most likely going to try Fury again once I get the mace from Supremus as I feel that my DPS style is heavily based on Windfury and that mace has an extremely high top end and 2.8 speed. So we will see, but for now in my opinion 31/30 > 17/44 _IF_ you have one of the top end 2 handers.
Last edited by Jamm : 07/04/07 at 2:18 AM.
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Originally Posted by svagftw
Yeah, of course, sorry. That's what I meant obviously but I chose the wrong word, 100 extra swings would be more appropiate and it was really just a quick overview of how haste would work, you'd get parries and dodges on those swings as well. Thanks for pointing that out though.
That makes me think though, since hits you get from +hit can't miss/get parried/dodged (in the one roll theory) is haste really that much better? Other than the fact it's much cheaper on the itembudget. [edit] Actually, hasted hits have the chance to be crits, +hitted hits don't. So I guess it's still better. |
just wondering, does anyone use timelapse shard or shrouding potions at all?
Here's another question: What to do when you can probably find a cure for cancer quicker than you can convince the powers that be to give a shammy for windfury?
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Originally Posted by Randor
Here's another question: What to do when you can probably find a cure for cancer quicker than you can convince the powers that be to give a shammy for windfury?
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Mind you, if the powers that be are already refusing to give windfury to a warror then perhaps it is time you found new powers that be.
Edited onPatch 2.1.2
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Originally Posted by Jamm
As fury I use the standard BT>WW(1 point imp WW)>Hamstring rotation and very rarely use heroic unless the MT is dishing out some serious threat as obviously I can catch up during execute range.
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[edit] For example, on Anetheron last week the tank was for some reason not building enough threat. I was threatcapped from 100% to 0, 420k dmg done. The mortal strike warrior did 421k. But if you check the screenshot I posted earlier of Shade you'll see I did at least 500 dps more than him. But when he's fury specced he's usually a bit in front of me on meters.
Last edited by svagftw : 07/04/07 at 8:59 AM.
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Originally Posted by svagftw
If you don't use fury to it's full potential and you feel threat capped, of course you will do same dps as mortal strike. Also "top 3" doesn't say anything, you could be doing 1000 dps and be top 3 in some guilds. 1000 dps in Paci is barely top 10 on meters.
[edit] For example, on Anetheron last week the tank was for some reason not building enough threat. I was threatcapped from 100% to 0, 420k dmg done. The mortal strike warrior did 421k. But if you check the screenshot I posted earlier of Shade you'll see I did at least 500 dps more than him. But when he's fury specced he's usually a bit in front of me on meters. |
I have never used a shrouding potion or a timelapse shard and even if I did, they're only like 1k threat. Useless.
So what do you feel is the best way to manage threat? That is far and away the biggest issue I've been having is that I always feel like my threat is heavilly limiting what I'm capable of. When we do something like Solarian, where I don't think twice about threat, I clearly perform much better.
I just haven't found an effective way to manage it recently. Any suggestions?
I just haven't found an effective way to manage it recently. Any suggestions?
Give your tanks windfury and battle shout, tell them to stack +blockvalue gear. At least that's what we're doing different from most guilds.
prot tps
I very rarely have to hold back to avoid pulling aggro. Everyone complaining about this issue should take a look at your tank for the answer. Our current mt very regularly pulls 1100-1200 tps on boss encounters, something i was also able to achieve pretty regularly as mt for illumination (mind you this is with mitigation/sta gear not high block threat gear). I am typically in the top 3 in dps on most fights while pulling #1 frequently when davia isnt there >.>
Watch the threat meter if your tank is not pulling 1100-1200 tps quite regularly (on boss encounters) then your mt might wanna toss on some more block or perhaps focus on effiecent threat gen as opposed to button mashing
. Oh and davia check out my sexah new weapons i got while you were out of town, your throne is in jeopordy!
Watch the threat meter if your tank is not pulling 1100-1200 tps quite regularly (on boss encounters) then your mt might wanna toss on some more block or perhaps focus on effiecent threat gen as opposed to button mashing
. Oh and davia check out my sexah new weapons i got while you were out of town, your throne is in jeopordy!Edited onPatch 2.1.2
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Originally Posted by svagftw
Give your tanks windfury and battle shout, tell them to stack +blockvalue gear. At least that's what we're doing different from most guilds.
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MTs get either battleshout or LotP aura, but in general, especially when survivability is the key, we tell our shamans to drop tranquil air totem for the first 30 secs of a fight. We tell dps warriors to take over at least 1 debuff duty (helping to fully sunder the mob in the start and usually keeping demoshout up), if there is no dedicated OT for that task.
| Our current mt very regularly pulls 1100-1200 tps on boss encounters, something i was also able to achieve pretty regularly as mt for illumination (mind you this is with mitigation/sta gear not high block threat gear). I am typically in the top 3 in dps on most fights while pulling #1 frequently when davia isnt there >.> |
The TPS spreadsheet gives you a good estimation (and even more important influence of gear changes) in a perfect world scenario (no movement, unlimited rage, etc. etc.)
[Warrior] Tanking TPS sheet.
Last edited by D4vE : 07/05/07 at 8:03 AM.
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Originally Posted by D4vE
I highly doubt those sustained 1100-1200 TPS with the gear you mentioned, unless you are sitting in the melee dps grp. Spikes on KTM do not indicate sustained TPS.
The TPS spreadsheet gives you a good estimation (and even more important influence of gear changes) in a perfect world scenario (no movement, unlimited rage, etc. etc.) [Warrior] Tanking TPS sheet. |
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Originally Posted by Hoonboof
I could easily sustain 1000-1200tps without windfury when I was main tanking for my guild. A shaman is far from wasted in the MT group, think about it is 4 casters getting WoA better than all your DPS being able to go balls out and not worry about a thing?
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Edited onPatch 2.1.2
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Originally Posted by Hoonboof
I could easily sustain 1000-1200tps without windfury when I was main tanking for my guild.
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Download the spread sheet, fill in your stats buffed and watch the result, and keep in mind it is a perfect world scenario.
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Originally Posted by Hoonboof
A shaman is far from wasted in the MT group, think about it is 4 casters getting WoA better than all your DPS being able to go balls out and not worry about a thing?
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In our guild top dps sustained numbers are around 1400, usually by rogues, nothing they can't handle with a well timed vanish. A fury warrior comes close to that and is the only class with that high dps output, who has no threat dump at all. So my original statement holds: is sacrificing 4x 70 dps (and mana regen etc.) in your caster group worth 1-2 hybrid dps classes not having to worry about the agro ceiling?
Last edited by D4vE : 07/05/07 at 9:00 AM.
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Originally Posted by D4vE
Again, there is no "sustained TPS meter", at least none that i know of. From where do you get those numbers?
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Originally Posted by D4vE
Download the spread sheet, fill in your stats buffed and watch the result, and keep in mind it is a perfect world scenario.
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Originally Posted by D4vE
Ok all your dps can go nuts with MT having windfury and sustaining 1100 TPS. How many of your DPS classes sustain 1700 DPS, especially when you ninja their support? =)
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Originally Posted by Hoonboof
I'd have never taken a shaman from a support group unless DPS was threat capped, and even then I'd take it from the casters and not the melee.
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The real point is: none of your DPS classes should be threat capped, but fury warriors and maybe shadowpriests, as long as they know when to use their threat reducing abilities.
Svag and/or the people saying their tanks can throw 1100+ TPS can you post a link to some WWS data? Preferably something in SSC or TK.
Thanks!
Thanks!
We have leftover melee dps in tank group benefiting from windfury too and if we bring 2 ferals they get lotp as well.
Like:
grp1 -> tank tank feral rogue shammy
grp2 -> warr warr feral rogue shammy
Like:
grp1 -> tank tank feral rogue shammy
grp2 -> warr warr feral rogue shammy
Interesting.
I thought blood pact and devotion aura were must have in the tank group.
I thought blood pact and devotion aura were must have in the tank group.
Only on encounters where the boss hits like two trucks and dps doesn't really matter, like Archimonde.
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Originally Posted by Hozz
Svag and/or the people saying their tanks can throw 1100+ TPS can you post a link to some WWS data? Preferably something in SSC or TK.
Thanks! |
I'm extremely interested in seeing some numbers too. WWS would be ideal so we can see a breakdown on skill usage, which might help folk raise their TPS accordingly.
I'll get one in our next raid, two offdays in a row now though ;_;
On another note, I decided to fraps Shade this week since I had a few requests for a movie. If you're interested Check it out
On another note, I decided to fraps Shade this week since I had a few requests for a movie. If you're interested Check it out
Very normal raidsetup, ie uninteresting.
Svag, there's a discussion going on in the public forum where a tank from DnT is claiming 1500-2000 TPS ( http://elitistjerks.com/showthread.p...264#post410264 ).
Is this anything close to what you've seen? I know our MT is probably doing 700-900 TPS, and I'll try to lock down a number on Morogrim tonight.
Is this anything close to what you've seen? I know our MT is probably doing 700-900 TPS, and I'll try to lock down a number on Morogrim tonight.
I don't doubt those numbers at all, during perfect conditions. I've seen our tank doing close to those numbers as well, but it's not very common and not even needed. 1300 is enough for everyone in the raid to go all out non stop.
We're only 1/4 TK and 4/6 SSC but I'm pretty sure our tank is only at 700-800 TPS...I'll try to nail down an "exact" number on Tidewalker tonight.
I've love to see the breakdown of your tank's attacks through WWS, and I think at least two others have expressed the same desire.
I've love to see the breakdown of your tank's attacks through WWS, and I think at least two others have expressed the same desire.
Edited onPatch 2.1.2
Yeah I will get a wws parse tomorrow, as well as a parse of my own damage so we have some meat on the bone for more haste vs armor penetration discussion.
[edit] Or if someone wouldn't mind installing Recount for a bossfight and screenshot detailed skill usage for us.
[edit] Or if someone wouldn't mind installing Recount for a bossfight and screenshot detailed skill usage for us.
Last edited by svagftw : 07/06/07 at 6:18 PM.
Svag - fyi you've got a forum post on the WoW forums under Warrior discussion dealing with your Shade video :P
That's their problem :P. Try to keep this thread on topic!
Since US raidtime starts now, can we get one of you guys to run recount for a boss where you had at least windfury and be sure to screenshot it for us?
Since US raidtime starts now, can we get one of you guys to run recount for a boss where you had at least windfury and be sure to screenshot it for us?
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Originally Posted by Jamm
I recently got a Cataclysm's Edge from Archimonde and decided to give 31/30 a go just to see how it would perform for me, I've been a Fury warrior for pretty much my entire raiding life and bluntly thought to myself that it would not even come close to my Fury DPS. How wrong was I, to be honest I'm quite sure I do more DPS as 31/30 than I did with 17/44 which I found extremely odd to say the least, I run with the standard melee group consisting of a Enhancement Shaman and a Feral Druid and man do I pump out the DPS.
I think a big part of it could be down to the incredible Windfury procs I receive from Cataclym's coupled with sword proc just makes the extra white damage supreme compared to my Talon of the Phoenix. I usually run with 13.13% haste and around -700 armor reduction and I can certainly say it makes up for the hit and crit I will lose. Sorry I have no proof of what I say but as 31/30 I could come top 3 (rogues-_-) on pretty much any fight except supremus for obvious reasons! So in short I'm saying once you get a great 2h try out 31/30, you won't be disappointed because I sure as hell wasn't :P You can check my 31/30 stats and gear in Armory and my Fury stats are as followed: (Zerker stance) 29% crit 2066 AP 14% hit 13.13% haste Talon of the Phoenix MH Swiftsteel Bludgeon OH As fury I use the standard BT>WW(1 point imp WW)>Hamstring rotation and very rarely use heroic unless the MT is dishing out some serious threat as obviously I can catch up during execute range. I'm most likely going to try Fury again once I get the mace from Supremus as I feel that my DPS style is heavily based on Windfury and that mace has an extremely high top end and 2.8 speed. So we will see, but for now in my opinion 31/30 > 17/44 _IF_ you have one of the top end 2 handers. |
I did pick up Soul Cleaver yesterday and gave 33-28 a shot today during our weekend SSC run. I had a lot of tanking to do and was never in a pure melee dps group, still I am quite sure i would have put out more dps in my former fury spec with The Decapitator/Hope Ender. Yes I adjusted my gear as good as possible to match the 2H spec and yes, i probably need a lot more experience handling it for optimized dps output =)
Two points I would like to put up for discussion:
- Is 31-30 worth it at all compared to 33-28? You gain 6% white damage and lose 4% dmg on your special attacks (on mobs, who can bleed of course). Even if you ignore the raid dps buff of blood frenzy, it is a close call in terms of personal dps in my opinion (I did not do any number crunching yet though).
- Is imp slam worth it? With WF I had amazing streaks of 10-15 slams in a row, fed only by my WF procs. After emptying my rage bar it just took 2-5 white attacks (depending on crits and WF procs) to fill up my rage bar and start the slam-spam again. Obviously you can heavily abuse slam if you get rage fed by damage, like e.g. at Naj'entus, but if WF alone can sustain a reasonable rage income, you could ignore +haste items completely and focus on -armor items only for 2H builds.
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Originally Posted by D4vE
I did pick up Soul Cleaver yesterday and gave 33-28 a shot today during our weekend SSC run. I had a lot of tanking to do and was never in a pure melee dps group, still I am quite sure i would have put out more dps in my former fury spec with The Decapitator/Hope Ender. Yes I adjusted my gear as good as possible to match the 2H spec and yes, i probably need a lot more experience handling it for optimized dps output =)
Two points I would like to put up for discussion: - Is 31-30 worth it at all compared to 33-28? You gain 6% white damage and lose 4% dmg on your special attacks (on mobs, who can bleed of course). Even if you ignore the raid dps buff of blood frenzy, it is a close call in terms of personal dps in my opinion (I did not do any number crunching yet though). - Is imp slam worth it? With WF I had amazing streaks of 10-15 slams in a row, fed only by my WF procs. After emptying my rage bar it just took 2-5 white attacks (depending on crits and WF procs) to fill up my rage bar and start the slam-spam again. Obviously you can heavily abuse slam if you get rage fed by damage, like e.g. at Naj'entus, but if WF alone can sustain a reasonable rage income, you could ignore +haste items completely and focus on -armor items only for 2H builds. |
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Originally Posted by Quixotic
Why would you use back to back slams? Imp slam is a really good talent because you can use a white hit -> slam -> special rotation and gain one second on your next white hit.
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Thats exactly the question. Even if you get the perfect rotation going and can weave in the slams, right after a white attack, when both MS and WW are on cooldown (keep world cooldowns in mind as well), isn't it better to simply white attack for full rage and then slam back to back, effectively reducing your weapon speed to world cooldown (plus gaining all other slam boni like non normalized AP calculation and no glancing blows) and keep slamming as long as WF feeds you with enough rage?
Keep in mind I just played around with my build and new toy today, but this was a question which immediately occurred to me after seeing the incredible dps output of back to back slamming.
Edit:
Ok, Grayson was faster, thanks for the clarification.
Keep in mind I just played around with my build and new toy today, but this was a question which immediately occurred to me after seeing the incredible dps output of back to back slamming.
Edit:
Ok, Grayson was faster, thanks for the clarification.
prot tps
I very rarely have to hold back to avoid pulling aggro. Everyone complaining about this issue should take a look at your tank for the answer. Our current mt very regularly pulls 1100-1200 tps on boss encounters, something i was also able to achieve pretty regularly as mt for illumination (mind you this is with mitigation/sta gear not high block threat gear). I am typically in the top 3 in dps on most fights while pulling #1 frequently when davia isnt there >.>
Watch the threat meter if your tank is not pulling 1100-1200 tps quite regularly (on boss encounters) then your mt might wanna toss on some more block or perhaps focus on effiecent threat gen as opposed to button mashing. Oh and davia check out my sexah new weapons i got while you were out of town, your throne is in jeopordy!
Watch the threat meter if your tank is not pulling 1100-1200 tps quite regularly (on boss encounters) then your mt might wanna toss on some more block or perhaps focus on effiecent threat gen as opposed to button mashing
. Oh and davia check out my sexah new weapons i got while you were out of town, your throne is in jeopordy!Edited onPatch 2.1.2
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Originally Posted by svagftw
Give your tanks windfury and battle shout, tell them to stack +blockvalue gear. At least that's what we're doing different from most guilds.
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MTs get either battleshout or LotP aura, but in general, especially when survivability is the key, we tell our shamans to drop tranquil air totem for the first 30 secs of a fight. We tell dps warriors to take over at least 1 debuff duty (helping to fully sunder the mob in the start and usually keeping demoshout up), if there is no dedicated OT for that task.
| Our current mt very regularly pulls 1100-1200 tps on boss encounters, something i was also able to achieve pretty regularly as mt for illumination (mind you this is with mitigation/sta gear not high block threat gear). I am typically in the top 3 in dps on most fights while pulling #1 frequently when davia isnt there >.> |
The TPS spreadsheet gives you a good estimation (and even more important influence of gear changes) in a perfect world scenario (no movement, unlimited rage, etc. etc.)
[Warrior] Tanking TPS sheet.
Last edited by D4vE : 07/05/07 at 8:03 AM.
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Originally Posted by D4vE
I highly doubt those sustained 1100-1200 TPS with the gear you mentioned, unless you are sitting in the melee dps grp. Spikes on KTM do not indicate sustained TPS.
The TPS spreadsheet gives you a good estimation (and even more important influence of gear changes) in a perfect world scenario (no movement, unlimited rage, etc. etc.) [Warrior] Tanking TPS sheet. |
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Originally Posted by Hoonboof
I could easily sustain 1000-1200tps without windfury when I was main tanking for my guild. A shaman is far from wasted in the MT group, think about it is 4 casters getting WoA better than all your DPS being able to go balls out and not worry about a thing?
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Edited onPatch 2.1.2
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Originally Posted by Hoonboof
I could easily sustain 1000-1200tps without windfury when I was main tanking for my guild.
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Download the spread sheet, fill in your stats buffed and watch the result, and keep in mind it is a perfect world scenario.
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Originally Posted by Hoonboof
A shaman is far from wasted in the MT group, think about it is 4 casters getting WoA better than all your DPS being able to go balls out and not worry about a thing?
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In our guild top dps sustained numbers are around 1400, usually by rogues, nothing they can't handle with a well timed vanish. A fury warrior comes close to that and is the only class with that high dps output, who has no threat dump at all. So my original statement holds: is sacrificing 4x 70 dps (and mana regen etc.) in your caster group worth 1-2 hybrid dps classes not having to worry about the agro ceiling?
Last edited by D4vE : 07/05/07 at 9:00 AM.
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Originally Posted by D4vE
Again, there is no "sustained TPS meter", at least none that i know of. From where do you get those numbers?
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Originally Posted by D4vE
Download the spread sheet, fill in your stats buffed and watch the result, and keep in mind it is a perfect world scenario.
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Originally Posted by D4vE
Ok all your dps can go nuts with MT having windfury and sustaining 1100 TPS. How many of your DPS classes sustain 1700 DPS, especially when you ninja their support? =)
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Originally Posted by Hoonboof
I'd have never taken a shaman from a support group unless DPS was threat capped, and even then I'd take it from the casters and not the melee.
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The real point is: none of your DPS classes should be threat capped, but fury warriors and maybe shadowpriests, as long as they know when to use their threat reducing abilities.
Svag and/or the people saying their tanks can throw 1100+ TPS can you post a link to some WWS data? Preferably something in SSC or TK.
Thanks!
Thanks!
We have leftover melee dps in tank group benefiting from windfury too and if we bring 2 ferals they get lotp as well.
Like:
grp1 -> tank tank feral rogue shammy
grp2 -> warr warr feral rogue shammy
Like:
grp1 -> tank tank feral rogue shammy
grp2 -> warr warr feral rogue shammy
Interesting.
I thought blood pact and devotion aura were must have in the tank group.
I thought blood pact and devotion aura were must have in the tank group.
Only on encounters where the boss hits like two trucks and dps doesn't really matter, like Archimonde.
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Originally Posted by Hozz
Svag and/or the people saying their tanks can throw 1100+ TPS can you post a link to some WWS data? Preferably something in SSC or TK.
Thanks! |
I'm extremely interested in seeing some numbers too. WWS would be ideal so we can see a breakdown on skill usage, which might help folk raise their TPS accordingly.
I'll get one in our next raid, two offdays in a row now though ;_;
On another note, I decided to fraps Shade this week since I had a few requests for a movie. If you're interested Check it out
On another note, I decided to fraps Shade this week since I had a few requests for a movie. If you're interested Check it out
Very normal raidsetup, ie uninteresting.
Svag, there's a discussion going on in the public forum where a tank from DnT is claiming 1500-2000 TPS ( http://elitistjerks.com/showthread.p...264#post410264 ).
Is this anything close to what you've seen? I know our MT is probably doing 700-900 TPS, and I'll try to lock down a number on Morogrim tonight.
Is this anything close to what you've seen? I know our MT is probably doing 700-900 TPS, and I'll try to lock down a number on Morogrim tonight.
I don't doubt those numbers at all, during perfect conditions. I've seen our tank doing close to those numbers as well, but it's not very common and not even needed. 1300 is enough for everyone in the raid to go all out non stop.
We're only 1/4 TK and 4/6 SSC but I'm pretty sure our tank is only at 700-800 TPS...I'll try to nail down an "exact" number on Tidewalker tonight.
I've love to see the breakdown of your tank's attacks through WWS, and I think at least two others have expressed the same desire.
I've love to see the breakdown of your tank's attacks through WWS, and I think at least two others have expressed the same desire.
Edited onPatch 2.1.2
Yeah I will get a wws parse tomorrow, as well as a parse of my own damage so we have some meat on the bone for more haste vs armor penetration discussion.
[edit] Or if someone wouldn't mind installing Recount for a bossfight and screenshot detailed skill usage for us.
[edit] Or if someone wouldn't mind installing Recount for a bossfight and screenshot detailed skill usage for us.
Last edited by svagftw : 07/06/07 at 6:18 PM.
Svag - fyi you've got a forum post on the WoW forums under Warrior discussion dealing with your Shade video :P
That's their problem :P. Try to keep this thread on topic!
Since US raidtime starts now, can we get one of you guys to run recount for a boss where you had at least windfury and be sure to screenshot it for us?
Since US raidtime starts now, can we get one of you guys to run recount for a boss where you had at least windfury and be sure to screenshot it for us?
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Originally Posted by Jamm
I recently got a Cataclysm's Edge from Archimonde and decided to give 31/30 a go just to see how it would perform for me, I've been a Fury warrior for pretty much my entire raiding life and bluntly thought to myself that it would not even come close to my Fury DPS. How wrong was I, to be honest I'm quite sure I do more DPS as 31/30 than I did with 17/44 which I found extremely odd to say the least, I run with the standard melee group consisting of a Enhancement Shaman and a Feral Druid and man do I pump out the DPS.
I think a big part of it could be down to the incredible Windfury procs I receive from Cataclym's coupled with sword proc just makes the extra white damage supreme compared to my Talon of the Phoenix. I usually run with 13.13% haste and around -700 armor reduction and I can certainly say it makes up for the hit and crit I will lose. Sorry I have no proof of what I say but as 31/30 I could come top 3 (rogues-_-) on pretty much any fight except supremus for obvious reasons! So in short I'm saying once you get a great 2h try out 31/30, you won't be disappointed because I sure as hell wasn't :P You can check my 31/30 stats and gear in Armory and my Fury stats are as followed: (Zerker stance) 29% crit 2066 AP 14% hit 13.13% haste Talon of the Phoenix MH Swiftsteel Bludgeon OH As fury I use the standard BT>WW(1 point imp WW)>Hamstring rotation and very rarely use heroic unless the MT is dishing out some serious threat as obviously I can catch up during execute range. I'm most likely going to try Fury again once I get the mace from Supremus as I feel that my DPS style is heavily based on Windfury and that mace has an extremely high top end and 2.8 speed. So we will see, but for now in my opinion 31/30 > 17/44 _IF_ you have one of the top end 2 handers. |
I did pick up Soul Cleaver yesterday and gave 33-28 a shot today during our weekend SSC run. I had a lot of tanking to do and was never in a pure melee dps group, still I am quite sure i would have put out more dps in my former fury spec with The Decapitator/Hope Ender. Yes I adjusted my gear as good as possible to match the 2H spec and yes, i probably need a lot more experience handling it for optimized dps output =)
Two points I would like to put up for discussion:
- Is 31-30 worth it at all compared to 33-28? You gain 6% white damage and lose 4% dmg on your special attacks (on mobs, who can bleed of course). Even if you ignore the raid dps buff of blood frenzy, it is a close call in terms of personal dps in my opinion (I did not do any number crunching yet though).
- Is imp slam worth it? With WF I had amazing streaks of 10-15 slams in a row, fed only by my WF procs. After emptying my rage bar it just took 2-5 white attacks (depending on crits and WF procs) to fill up my rage bar and start the slam-spam again. Obviously you can heavily abuse slam if you get rage fed by damage, like e.g. at Naj'entus, but if WF alone can sustain a reasonable rage income, you could ignore +haste items completely and focus on -armor items only for 2H builds.
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Originally Posted by D4vE
I did pick up Soul Cleaver yesterday and gave 33-28 a shot today during our weekend SSC run. I had a lot of tanking to do and was never in a pure melee dps group, still I am quite sure i would have put out more dps in my former fury spec with The Decapitator/Hope Ender. Yes I adjusted my gear as good as possible to match the 2H spec and yes, i probably need a lot more experience handling it for optimized dps output =)
Two points I would like to put up for discussion: - Is 31-30 worth it at all compared to 33-28? You gain 6% white damage and lose 4% dmg on your special attacks (on mobs, who can bleed of course). Even if you ignore the raid dps buff of blood frenzy, it is a close call in terms of personal dps in my opinion (I did not do any number crunching yet though). - Is imp slam worth it? With WF I had amazing streaks of 10-15 slams in a row, fed only by my WF procs. After emptying my rage bar it just took 2-5 white attacks (depending on crits and WF procs) to fill up my rage bar and start the slam-spam again. Obviously you can heavily abuse slam if you get rage fed by damage, like e.g. at Naj'entus, but if WF alone can sustain a reasonable rage income, you could ignore +haste items completely and focus on -armor items only for 2H builds. |
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Originally Posted by Quixotic
Why would you use back to back slams? Imp slam is a really good talent because you can use a white hit -> slam -> special rotation and gain one second on your next white hit.
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Thats exactly the question. Even if you get the perfect rotation going and can weave in the slams, right after a white attack, when both MS and WW are on cooldown (keep world cooldowns in mind as well), isn't it better to simply white attack for full rage and then slam back to back, effectively reducing your weapon speed to world cooldown (plus gaining all other slam boni like non normalized AP calculation and no glancing blows) and keep slamming as long as WF feeds you with enough rage?
Keep in mind I just played around with my build and new toy today, but this was a question which immediately occurred to me after seeing the incredible dps output of back to back slamming.
Edit:
Ok, Grayson was faster, thanks for the clarification.
Keep in mind I just played around with my build and new toy today, but this was a question which immediately occurred to me after seeing the incredible dps output of back to back slamming.
Edit:
Ok, Grayson was faster, thanks for the clarification.
Our only enhancement shaman respecced elemental today, so it leaves our guild with 3 resto and 1 elem shaman. Before we generally had 3 shaman per raid, WF and SoE for melee from enhance shaman, and Mana Tide + WoA for caster groups.
But now only caster groups are getting the shaman, leaving our melee (1 fury warrior and 2 sword rogues) with no WF. I've searched the forums for who gets the most gain from shaman totems, but I've found no math comparing WF and SoE vs. Mana tide and WoA, besides the warrior spreadsheets (and our raid leader will only take math). I need help convincing our raid leader to give melee one of the resto shaman.
Before this, I spent a few weeks convincing them that WF is better than GoA.
But now only caster groups are getting the shaman, leaving our melee (1 fury warrior and 2 sword rogues) with no WF. I've searched the forums for who gets the most gain from shaman totems, but I've found no math comparing WF and SoE vs. Mana tide and WoA, besides the warrior spreadsheets (and our raid leader will only take math). I need help convincing our raid leader to give melee one of the resto shaman.
Before this, I spent a few weeks convincing them that WF is better than GoA.
Using the stats of your average caster and show how +101 spelldamage, a (talentated) manaspring and manatide or a totem of wrath benefits them (+ eventually 1% hit from your dranaei aura). Then do the same for your melees. There are several dps spreadsheets for all relevant classes.
A restoration shaman in a melee group will allmost allways leave him without a shadowpriest, and that hurt his healpower a lot.
Depending on your raid composition and stacking of healing, caster or melees, you should decide it. A feral druid with lotp won't bring that huge benefit than an enhance shaman would, but on certain fights lotp is very strong and 5% crit is allways welcome (and better then nothing/only battle shout).
A restoration shaman in a melee group will allmost allways leave him without a shadowpriest, and that hurt his healpower a lot.
Depending on your raid composition and stacking of healing, caster or melees, you should decide it. A feral druid with lotp won't bring that huge benefit than an enhance shaman would, but on certain fights lotp is very strong and 5% crit is allways welcome (and better then nothing/only battle shout).
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Originally Posted by svagftw
Yeah I will get a wws parse tomorrow, as well as a parse of my own damage so we have some meat on the bone for more haste vs armor penetration discussion.
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Obviously you didn't get my point, the parses are for seeing exactly how much of the damage is affected by haste. Armor penetration affects all damage (Hits, crits, glancings white hits and specials) while haste only works on hite damage and heroics, what we've been trying to figure out if you followed this thread is which of the stats is better.
And people requested wws parse of our tanks abilities since I claimed he's doing 1.3k tps, of course I will give it to them.
Also,yes, I agree with all your points above. We usually don't get BM Hunter in group, nor soulstones on anything but farm fights ^^
And people requested wws parse of our tanks abilities since I claimed he's doing 1.3k tps, of course I will give it to them.
Also,yes, I agree with all your points above. We usually don't get BM Hunter in group, nor soulstones on anything but farm fights ^^
The reason shade of akama was tailored to Svags advantage was that the fight favours melee damage, and from what ive heard, pacifism's melee generally do more damage than casters. But it was nice to see. What i would be interested in was a comparison between equal itemisation amounts of haste rating and -armor. Such as 38 haste rating compared with 175 armor penetration.
Yes, me too. And to do that we need to know how much each of them increases your overall dps, I'll be back later tonight with some numbers we can work with.
Edited onPatch 2.1.2
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Originally Posted by svagftw
On another note, I decided to fraps Shade this week since I had a few requests for a movie. If you're interested Check it out
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Don't you remember the result of such fury-dps-videos in the past?
Although your dps is quite nice, I see flurry getting nerfed again next patch
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Originally Posted by Rishina
The reason shade of akama was tailored to Svags advantage was that the fight favours melee damage, and from what ive heard, pacifism's melee generally do more damage than casters. But it was nice to see. What i would be interested in was a comparison between equal itemisation amounts of haste rating and -armor. Such as 38 haste rating compared with 175 armor penetration.
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That question sounds like you're looking for a comparison between http://www.wowhead.com/?item=32278 and http://www.wowhead.com/?item=32608, right?
In this case, I think you should look at the other stats as well: Grips of Silent Justice also have up to 60 Strength without any enchants (only sockets + raw stats). That makes them much more desireable in my opinion. Luckily I possess both of them (the grips dropped from akama yesterday), so I'll try to compare them in practical use the next days.
Last edited by Shoxx : 07/07/07 at 10:15 AM.
No i wasnt referring to those items. I was just referring to the numbers. As the stats seem quite similar, apart from the sockets and the haste / armor penetration.
I have no idea which one is better myself, as i have neither of them. But haste seems to be quite a cheap stat, with a noticeable effect, the usefullness of -armor depends on the mob armor. Nonetheless it will be interesting to see what numbers you can get Svag.
I doubt flurry gets nerfed next patch. We do around the same damage as rogues ( we're competitive with them ) which is what blizzard intended. Granted some fights we do more, some they do more. It also depends alot on the skill of the player.
I have no idea which one is better myself, as i have neither of them. But haste seems to be quite a cheap stat, with a noticeable effect, the usefullness of -armor depends on the mob armor. Nonetheless it will be interesting to see what numbers you can get Svag.
I doubt flurry gets nerfed next patch. We do around the same damage as rogues ( we're competitive with them ) which is what blizzard intended. Granted some fights we do more, some they do more. It also depends alot on the skill of the player.
Just curious Svag, that was some pretty impressive dps in your video. What attack rotation do you use, its working well for you. Doesnt look like any normal boring sequence. Also how much ap and crit were you pushing during that timeframe.
101 spell damage for a mage is generally a little under 5% DPS increase, excactly how much depends on how geared he is. With my gear it's quite close to 5%. Mana spring/tide are nice but not that much of a DPS increase if you already have a shadow priest especially when the fight isn't exceptionally long, however if you're an arcane mage with 2/5 T5 every extra mana you get can be converted into some damage, but probably not enough to be even close to matching up the 8-10% DPS rogues are supposed to get from it and ~20% warriors are (rogue/warrior benefits based on other people's calculations not mine, mage DPS is based on my calculations though).
Edited onPatch 2.1.2
So I got what I needed during todays raid:
Total damage done: 371,405
60% of my damage was affected by haste.
The boss had 15.79% mitigation (Armor value is wrong, this is somewhere around 2k armor? Lets assume it is):
100% of damage is affected by armor penetration.
The comparision;
38 haste rating (3.61% haste) vs 175 armor penetration.
En extra 3.61% haste on 60% of my total damage (371405*0.6=222843) gives me 8044 extra damage (222843*1.0361).
An extra 175 armor penetration reducing 2000 armor to 1825 on 100% of my total damage gives according to the Armor formula (Armor / (Armor+400+85*(Level+4.5*(Level-59))))
Reducing mitigation from 14.3% to 13.2% means you deal (1-.132)/(1-.143)=1.0128 or 1.28% more DPS, not 0.8%. (Thanks galzohar for correcting me) 371405*1.0128=376159 damage, 4754 extra damage.
Clear victory for haste. But 175 armor penetration doesn't equal 38 haste in item budget (I think?). How much does armor penetration cost in comparision to haste?
Total damage done: 371,405
60% of my damage was affected by haste.
The boss had 15.79% mitigation (Armor value is wrong, this is somewhere around 2k armor? Lets assume it is):
100% of damage is affected by armor penetration.
The comparision;
38 haste rating (3.61% haste) vs 175 armor penetration.
En extra 3.61% haste on 60% of my total damage (371405*0.6=222843) gives me 8044 extra damage (222843*1.0361).
An extra 175 armor penetration reducing 2000 armor to 1825 on 100% of my total damage gives according to the Armor formula (Armor / (Armor+400+85*(Level+4.5*(Level-59))))
Reducing mitigation from 14.3% to 13.2% means you deal (1-.132)/(1-.143)=1.0128 or 1.28% more DPS, not 0.8%. (Thanks galzohar for correcting me) 371405*1.0128=376159 damage, 4754 extra damage.
Clear victory for haste. But 175 armor penetration doesn't equal 38 haste in item budget (I think?). How much does armor penetration cost in comparision to haste?
Last edited by svagftw : 07/07/07 at 10:30 PM. Reason: Incorrect math, thanks for help.
Im not sure if it does equal, but it would make sense if it did.
I was sort've comparing grips of silent justice and pillagers gauntlets as they have equal itemisation points ( lv 141 ) and the same kind of stats.
Nevertheless for -armor to equal haste rating it would need to cost alot less itemisation wise, 2.3x less then haste. I think that shows haste as the clear winner, but it would be interesting for 38 haste VS 175 armor penetration on a low armor boss, like solarian and see if the results are any different.
I was sort've comparing grips of silent justice and pillagers gauntlets as they have equal itemisation points ( lv 141 ) and the same kind of stats.
Nevertheless for -armor to equal haste rating it would need to cost alot less itemisation wise, 2.3x less then haste. I think that shows haste as the clear winner, but it would be interesting for 38 haste VS 175 armor penetration on a low armor boss, like solarian and see if the results are any different.
Reducing mitigation from 14.3% to 13.2% means you deal (1-.132)/(1-.143)=1.0128 or 1.28% more DPS, not 0.8%. Still less than 5k.
With a lower armor boss it would've been slightly more, but if you calculate you'll see the difference won't turn the tide in the comarison mentioned above.
It's easy to calculate on different armor levels as armor penetration damage increase is independant of what kinds of damage you were doing, as it's all physical and affected by armor (except rend maybe?).
With a lower armor boss it would've been slightly more, but if you calculate you'll see the difference won't turn the tide in the comarison mentioned above.
It's easy to calculate on different armor levels as armor penetration damage increase is independant of what kinds of damage you were doing, as it's all physical and affected by armor (except rend maybe?).
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Originally Posted by galzohar
Reducing mitigation from 14.3% to 13.2% means you deal (1-.132)/(1-.143)=1.0128 or 1.28% more DPS, not 0.8%. Still less than 5k.
With a lower armor boss it would've been slightly more, but if you calculate you'll see the difference won't turn the tide in the comarison mentioned above. It's easy to calculate on different armor levels as armor penetration damage increase is independant of what kinds of damage you were doing, as it's all physical and affected by armor (except rend maybe?). |
The 1200 TPS tank claims still itched me, so I patched a small Excel sheet together to analyze Teron Gorefiend fights from default, EJ and Four Kings listed on lossendil. Teron is as close to tank & spank as it gets in our state of progress, the tank has to have high TPS and should have plenty of rage.
I used the data in this thread in the EU forums for my calculations.
This are the assumptions and simplifications I made:
- Sunder armor is not listed in the WWS parses for some reason, so I just assumed every tank did 5 sunders and sticked to devastate after that.
- I ignored the threat gain from buffs/debuffs like commanding shout/demoralizing shout. They are hard to track in the WWS parses and their impact should be negligible.
- I calculated the passive healing threat in the best way possible for the tank. According to ingame tool tips I assumed healing threat is affected by defensive stance, but not by defiance. I did not split healing threat between Teron and the constructs (since they are "out of phase"), but to be honest it's very likely the healing threat is split in this fight, it was just much easier to calculate it in this way.
Anyways here are the results:
Frezy, default
Paches, EJ
Gordo, Four Kings
To be honest, these numbers seem to be very low, even for me. But on the other hand I double checked everything, so unless I got something fundamentally wrong, or missed something, 1200 TPS tanks are simply a myth, because I highly doubt a shaman will increase your TPS output by 50%.
Feel free to prove me wrong, I even wish you did =)
I used the data in this thread in the EU forums for my calculations.
This are the assumptions and simplifications I made:
- Sunder armor is not listed in the WWS parses for some reason, so I just assumed every tank did 5 sunders and sticked to devastate after that.
- I ignored the threat gain from buffs/debuffs like commanding shout/demoralizing shout. They are hard to track in the WWS parses and their impact should be negligible.
- I calculated the passive healing threat in the best way possible for the tank. According to ingame tool tips I assumed healing threat is affected by defensive stance, but not by defiance. I did not split healing threat between Teron and the constructs (since they are "out of phase"), but to be honest it's very likely the healing threat is split in this fight, it was just much easier to calculate it in this way.
Anyways here are the results:
Frezy, default
Paches, EJ
Gordo, Four Kings
To be honest, these numbers seem to be very low, even for me. But on the other hand I double checked everything, so unless I got something fundamentally wrong, or missed something, 1200 TPS tanks are simply a myth, because I highly doubt a shaman will increase your TPS output by 50%.
Feel free to prove me wrong, I even wish you did =)
Edited onPatch 2.1.2
I'll play around with that spreadsheet myself, lets see.
[edit]
Our tank
Those numbers seem a bit more realistic.
[edit]
Our tank
Those numbers seem a bit more realistic.
Last edited by svagftw : 07/08/07 at 8:48 AM.
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Originally Posted by svagftw
I'll play around with that spreadsheet myself, lets see.
[edit] Our tank Those numbers seem a bit more realistic. |
Devestates, Heroic Strikes, SS, raw dmg, healing which gives the tank agro and then you get a threat number, this you divide / time and then you have a REAL (not hypotetically) TPS over a fight!!
Well if you do less than the theorycrafted cycle, either you're short of rage, the fight doesn't allow attacking 100% of the time or your tank was simply slacking... So if a spreadsheet shows 1200 tps on a tank&spank unlimited rage fight there's no excuse to get less if the spreadsheet doesn't use bogus data (like not counting misses or stuff like that).
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Originally Posted by galzohar
Well if you do less than the theorycrafted cycle, either you're short of rage, the fight doesn't allow attacking 100% of the time or your tank was simply slacking... So if a spreadsheet shows 1200 tps on a tank&spank unlimited rage fight there's no excuse to get less if the spreadsheet doesn't use bogus data (like not counting misses or stuff like that).
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- 100% rage all the time
- tank does not Thunderclap (which can be ressisted)
- tank does not DemoShout (yet this task can be given to dps warriors)
- misses/dodges/parries
which is just plain and simple completly unrealistic!!!
And again there is no such tank&spank fight which would include all those above mentioned points. The very first second you dodge/parry or the mob misses you for a streak of attacks you are rage starved and this cycle is broken and every warrior will agree with me that the skill in TPS is bound to rage and cycleing the skills with the given rage you have.
So how can you get a real realistic TPS from tanks:
a) Choose a fight which you think is tank & spank
For the threat the skills are giving read:
b) http://forums.wow-europe.com/thread....94319875&sid=1
c) record a fight via WWS
d) Count the dmg / skills used / healing - threat of your MT
Then you get a threat number, divide this with the lenght of the fight and you have your real sustained TPS from the MT, and if Ghorms numbers are correct then this TPS spreadsheet is soo off from even comming close to realistic (~400TPS difference) that either:
1) numbers from b) are wrong
or
2) he completly miscalculated it, but i flew over it a bit and it seems correct.
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Originally Posted by galzohar
Well if you do less than the theorycrafted cycle, either you're short of rage, the fight doesn't allow attacking 100% of the time or your tank was simply slacking... So if a spreadsheet shows 1200 tps on a tank&spank unlimited rage fight there's no excuse to get less if the spreadsheet doesn't use bogus data (like not counting misses or stuff like that).
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If you read the thread of the TPS spreadsheet, the author even claims those values to be purely theoretically, which should give you an idea of possible TPS and, even more important, shows the impact of gear changes on your TPS.
If I find the time next week, I will try to verify, if healing agro is affected by defensive stance or not, already talked with one of our priests how to do it.
The real question is: are those numbers true? If yes, fury warriors (shadowpriests and ele/enh shamans) might be restricted by the agro ceiling soon. Those guys who claim their tanks are producing 1200 TPS, show those WWS parses, the calculations can even be done with pen and paper. Because either your tanks are doing something completely different than above posted 3 examples, or my calculations are simply wrong =)
1st if you're not taking misses/dodges into account, you really should. Dodges cannot be worked around (aside from weapon skill which you both aren't going to have and it doesn't really change much anyway), and very little tank gear has any hit rating on it. So you're probably going to be running with the full 5.6% dodge 8% miss (I think those are the numbers at least, worth verifying), cutting your 1200 TPS down to 1037.
Then if nobody keeps thunderclap/demo for you (as far as I noticed picking up TC for a dps warrior is easy but imp demo is not as easy, althogh possible if you really need it so you don't get threat capped ;p). Shouldn't be hard to add those to the rotation if applicible.
Shield block shouldn't have an effect on TPS beyond some extra rage requirement and the fact it's another thing to look at. It's not on the global cooldown so it shouldn't replace any normal moves you're using, just like heroic strike.
For mitigation I'm not sure how to really apply this as I don't actually own a warrior, but I suppose you can easily figure out how many attacks in a row you need to completely avoid to become rage starved (2? 1? 3?) and model it with the chance for such a streak to happen. For example if dodging/parrying 2 hits in a row means you don't have rage for the next 2 heroic strikes until you're hit again, and your total chance for being missed/dodge/parry is X, then (1-X)^2 of the time you'll lose 2 heroic strikes. This is just an example of course but you can easily adjust it in the model to reality.
My saying still stands that if reality doesn't match the theory, either you're doing something wrong in reality or your theory is wrong - but in both cases it's rarely something that cannot be fixed ;p
Then if nobody keeps thunderclap/demo for you (as far as I noticed picking up TC for a dps warrior is easy but imp demo is not as easy, althogh possible if you really need it so you don't get threat capped ;p). Shouldn't be hard to add those to the rotation if applicible.
Shield block shouldn't have an effect on TPS beyond some extra rage requirement and the fact it's another thing to look at. It's not on the global cooldown so it shouldn't replace any normal moves you're using, just like heroic strike.
For mitigation I'm not sure how to really apply this as I don't actually own a warrior, but I suppose you can easily figure out how many attacks in a row you need to completely avoid to become rage starved (2? 1? 3?) and model it with the chance for such a streak to happen. For example if dodging/parrying 2 hits in a row means you don't have rage for the next 2 heroic strikes until you're hit again, and your total chance for being missed/dodge/parry is X, then (1-X)^2 of the time you'll lose 2 heroic strikes. This is just an example of course but you can easily adjust it in the model to reality.
My saying still stands that if reality doesn't match the theory, either you're doing something wrong in reality or your theory is wrong - but in both cases it's rarely something that cannot be fixed ;p
How much TPS you can put out is very heavily correlated to how much damage reduction your mob has. The TPS spreadsheet defaults to 30%, which is at the high end for a generic raid-debuffed boss mob. It also doesn't account for threat from healing you do with Life Bloom, Prayer of Mending & Earth Shield (all of which, far as I know, get the full Defstance + Defiance bonus), damage done by Spell Reflect or rage gain from Bloodrage, Shield Specialisation and Unbridled Wrath.
The only significant effects there are the overestimation of damage reduction and ignoring of healing, still, it's sufficient to make the spreadsheet underestimate tps severely for certain fights.
As for the Gorefiend parses, my immediate guess would be that Gorefiend has pretty good damage reduction and/or his dps on the tank is insufficient to allow full ability spam. The players presented managed to hit, assuming your assumptions on Sunder use were correct:
Frezy: 2.97 seconds/instant, 3.03 seconds/hs
Paches: 2.09 seconds/instant, 3.81 seconds/hs
Gordo: 3.37 seconds/instant, 3.19 seconds/hs
Even accounting for miss, dodge, block & parry all were well below maximum ability spam. Presumably for good reasons, such as debuffs or lack of rage, but nevertheless. I suppose the obvious question is if anyone has seen a tank solidly maintain 1200ish TPS on that fight in particular? If it is a high-DR boss then 800-900 TPS is a very believable value for near-optimal play from a tank that can perform 1100-1200 TPS on a boss that is reduced to near 0 armour.
The only significant effects there are the overestimation of damage reduction and ignoring of healing, still, it's sufficient to make the spreadsheet underestimate tps severely for certain fights.
As for the Gorefiend parses, my immediate guess would be that Gorefiend has pretty good damage reduction and/or his dps on the tank is insufficient to allow full ability spam. The players presented managed to hit, assuming your assumptions on Sunder use were correct:
Frezy: 2.97 seconds/instant, 3.03 seconds/hs
Paches: 2.09 seconds/instant, 3.81 seconds/hs
Gordo: 3.37 seconds/instant, 3.19 seconds/hs
Even accounting for miss, dodge, block & parry all were well below maximum ability spam. Presumably for good reasons, such as debuffs or lack of rage, but nevertheless. I suppose the obvious question is if anyone has seen a tank solidly maintain 1200ish TPS on that fight in particular? If it is a high-DR boss then 800-900 TPS is a very believable value for near-optimal play from a tank that can perform 1100-1200 TPS on a boss that is reduced to near 0 armour.
Edited onPatch 2.1.3
Hi am sorry if this has been seen previously but figured id ask the question right away.
Am currently raid leading for a guild entering BT and even if the dps warrior spot is already granted am still trying to study which is best for the raid between fury and arms with BF.
Here are my non theorycrafted pros and cons.
Fury :
Pros : Higher DPS
Cons : Higher Threat.
Arms :
Pros : Increases the raid dps even in tank gear
Cons : Lower dps (how much lower is quite the question tho)
I'd like to know pretty much what guidelines are there between picking the two specs in term of general raid efficiency i guess the 2 important values in the equation are the tank threat if applicable and the physical dps of the raid (atm we tend to run caster heavy).
Am currently raid leading for a guild entering BT and even if the dps warrior spot is already granted am still trying to study which is best for the raid between fury and arms with BF.
Here are my non theorycrafted pros and cons.
Fury :
Pros : Higher DPS
Cons : Higher Threat.
Arms :
Pros : Increases the raid dps even in tank gear
Cons : Lower dps (how much lower is quite the question tho)
I'd like to know pretty much what guidelines are there between picking the two specs in term of general raid efficiency i guess the 2 important values in the equation are the tank threat if applicable and the physical dps of the raid (atm we tend to run caster heavy).
Last edited by Runemist : 07/10/07 at 8:35 AM.
Your rogues will stop crying when they will get 382 AP Battle shout.
*452 bshout, solarian trinket!
Without knowing your raid composition, saying "caster heavy" should lean you away from blood frenzy. There's always going to be a break point at which BF spec raid DPS is higher than the same warrior as fury minus his individual BF spec dps. You won't reach that break point with only a few melee.
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Originally Posted by Runemist
I'd like to know pretty much what guidelines are there between picking the two specs in term of general raid efficiency i guess the 2 important values in the equation are the tank threat if applicable and the physical dps of the raid (atm we tend to run caster heavy).
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Our only enhancement shaman respecced elemental today, so it leaves our guild with 3 resto and 1 elem shaman. Before we generally had 3 shaman per raid, WF and SoE for melee from enhance shaman, and Mana Tide + WoA for caster groups.
But now only caster groups are getting the shaman, leaving our melee (1 fury warrior and 2 sword rogues) with no WF. I've searched the forums for who gets the most gain from shaman totems, but I've found no math comparing WF and SoE vs. Mana tide and WoA, besides the warrior spreadsheets (and our raid leader will only take math). I need help convincing our raid leader to give melee one of the resto shaman.
Before this, I spent a few weeks convincing them that WF is better than GoA.
But now only caster groups are getting the shaman, leaving our melee (1 fury warrior and 2 sword rogues) with no WF. I've searched the forums for who gets the most gain from shaman totems, but I've found no math comparing WF and SoE vs. Mana tide and WoA, besides the warrior spreadsheets (and our raid leader will only take math). I need help convincing our raid leader to give melee one of the resto shaman.
Before this, I spent a few weeks convincing them that WF is better than GoA.
Using the stats of your average caster and show how +101 spelldamage, a (talentated) manaspring and manatide or a totem of wrath benefits them (+ eventually 1% hit from your dranaei aura). Then do the same for your melees. There are several dps spreadsheets for all relevant classes.
A restoration shaman in a melee group will allmost allways leave him without a shadowpriest, and that hurt his healpower a lot.
Depending on your raid composition and stacking of healing, caster or melees, you should decide it. A feral druid with lotp won't bring that huge benefit than an enhance shaman would, but on certain fights lotp is very strong and 5% crit is allways welcome (and better then nothing/only battle shout).
A restoration shaman in a melee group will allmost allways leave him without a shadowpriest, and that hurt his healpower a lot.
Depending on your raid composition and stacking of healing, caster or melees, you should decide it. A feral druid with lotp won't bring that huge benefit than an enhance shaman would, but on certain fights lotp is very strong and 5% crit is allways welcome (and better then nothing/only battle shout).
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Originally Posted by svagftw
Yeah I will get a wws parse tomorrow, as well as a parse of my own damage so we have some meat on the bone for more haste vs armor penetration discussion.
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Obviously you didn't get my point, the parses are for seeing exactly how much of the damage is affected by haste. Armor penetration affects all damage (Hits, crits, glancings white hits and specials) while haste only works on hite damage and heroics, what we've been trying to figure out if you followed this thread is which of the stats is better.
And people requested wws parse of our tanks abilities since I claimed he's doing 1.3k tps, of course I will give it to them.
Also,yes, I agree with all your points above. We usually don't get BM Hunter in group, nor soulstones on anything but farm fights ^^
And people requested wws parse of our tanks abilities since I claimed he's doing 1.3k tps, of course I will give it to them.
Also,yes, I agree with all your points above. We usually don't get BM Hunter in group, nor soulstones on anything but farm fights ^^
The reason shade of akama was tailored to Svags advantage was that the fight favours melee damage, and from what ive heard, pacifism's melee generally do more damage than casters. But it was nice to see. What i would be interested in was a comparison between equal itemisation amounts of haste rating and -armor. Such as 38 haste rating compared with 175 armor penetration.
Yes, me too. And to do that we need to know how much each of them increases your overall dps, I'll be back later tonight with some numbers we can work with.
Edited onPatch 2.1.2
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Originally Posted by svagftw
On another note, I decided to fraps Shade this week since I had a few requests for a movie. If you're interested Check it out
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Don't you remember the result of such fury-dps-videos in the past?
Although your dps is quite nice, I see flurry getting nerfed again next patch
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Originally Posted by Rishina
The reason shade of akama was tailored to Svags advantage was that the fight favours melee damage, and from what ive heard, pacifism's melee generally do more damage than casters. But it was nice to see. What i would be interested in was a comparison between equal itemisation amounts of haste rating and -armor. Such as 38 haste rating compared with 175 armor penetration.
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That question sounds like you're looking for a comparison between http://www.wowhead.com/?item=32278 and http://www.wowhead.com/?item=32608, right?
In this case, I think you should look at the other stats as well: Grips of Silent Justice also have up to 60 Strength without any enchants (only sockets + raw stats). That makes them much more desireable in my opinion. Luckily I possess both of them (the grips dropped from akama yesterday), so I'll try to compare them in practical use the next days.
Last edited by Shoxx : 07/07/07 at 10:15 AM.
No i wasnt referring to those items. I was just referring to the numbers. As the stats seem quite similar, apart from the sockets and the haste / armor penetration.
I have no idea which one is better myself, as i have neither of them. But haste seems to be quite a cheap stat, with a noticeable effect, the usefullness of -armor depends on the mob armor. Nonetheless it will be interesting to see what numbers you can get Svag.
I doubt flurry gets nerfed next patch. We do around the same damage as rogues ( we're competitive with them ) which is what blizzard intended. Granted some fights we do more, some they do more. It also depends alot on the skill of the player.
I have no idea which one is better myself, as i have neither of them. But haste seems to be quite a cheap stat, with a noticeable effect, the usefullness of -armor depends on the mob armor. Nonetheless it will be interesting to see what numbers you can get Svag.
I doubt flurry gets nerfed next patch. We do around the same damage as rogues ( we're competitive with them ) which is what blizzard intended. Granted some fights we do more, some they do more. It also depends alot on the skill of the player.
Just curious Svag, that was some pretty impressive dps in your video. What attack rotation do you use, its working well for you. Doesnt look like any normal boring sequence. Also how much ap and crit were you pushing during that timeframe.
101 spell damage for a mage is generally a little under 5% DPS increase, excactly how much depends on how geared he is. With my gear it's quite close to 5%. Mana spring/tide are nice but not that much of a DPS increase if you already have a shadow priest especially when the fight isn't exceptionally long, however if you're an arcane mage with 2/5 T5 every extra mana you get can be converted into some damage, but probably not enough to be even close to matching up the 8-10% DPS rogues are supposed to get from it and ~20% warriors are (rogue/warrior benefits based on other people's calculations not mine, mage DPS is based on my calculations though).
Edited onPatch 2.1.2
So I got what I needed during todays raid:
Total damage done: 371,405
60% of my damage was affected by haste.
The boss had 15.79% mitigation (Armor value is wrong, this is somewhere around 2k armor? Lets assume it is):
100% of damage is affected by armor penetration.
The comparision;
38 haste rating (3.61% haste) vs 175 armor penetration.
En extra 3.61% haste on 60% of my total damage (371405*0.6=222843) gives me 8044 extra damage (222843*1.0361).
An extra 175 armor penetration reducing 2000 armor to 1825 on 100% of my total damage gives according to the Armor formula (Armor / (Armor+400+85*(Level+4.5*(Level-59))))
Reducing mitigation from 14.3% to 13.2% means you deal (1-.132)/(1-.143)=1.0128 or 1.28% more DPS, not 0.8%. (Thanks galzohar for correcting me) 371405*1.0128=376159 damage, 4754 extra damage.
Clear victory for haste. But 175 armor penetration doesn't equal 38 haste in item budget (I think?). How much does armor penetration cost in comparision to haste?
Total damage done: 371,405
60% of my damage was affected by haste.
The boss had 15.79% mitigation (Armor value is wrong, this is somewhere around 2k armor? Lets assume it is):
100% of damage is affected by armor penetration.
The comparision;
38 haste rating (3.61% haste) vs 175 armor penetration.
En extra 3.61% haste on 60% of my total damage (371405*0.6=222843) gives me 8044 extra damage (222843*1.0361).
An extra 175 armor penetration reducing 2000 armor to 1825 on 100% of my total damage gives according to the Armor formula (Armor / (Armor+400+85*(Level+4.5*(Level-59))))
Reducing mitigation from 14.3% to 13.2% means you deal (1-.132)/(1-.143)=1.0128 or 1.28% more DPS, not 0.8%. (Thanks galzohar for correcting me) 371405*1.0128=376159 damage, 4754 extra damage.
Clear victory for haste. But 175 armor penetration doesn't equal 38 haste in item budget (I think?). How much does armor penetration cost in comparision to haste?
Last edited by svagftw : 07/07/07 at 10:30 PM. Reason: Incorrect math, thanks for help.
Im not sure if it does equal, but it would make sense if it did.
I was sort've comparing grips of silent justice and pillagers gauntlets as they have equal itemisation points ( lv 141 ) and the same kind of stats.
Nevertheless for -armor to equal haste rating it would need to cost alot less itemisation wise, 2.3x less then haste. I think that shows haste as the clear winner, but it would be interesting for 38 haste VS 175 armor penetration on a low armor boss, like solarian and see if the results are any different.
I was sort've comparing grips of silent justice and pillagers gauntlets as they have equal itemisation points ( lv 141 ) and the same kind of stats.
Nevertheless for -armor to equal haste rating it would need to cost alot less itemisation wise, 2.3x less then haste. I think that shows haste as the clear winner, but it would be interesting for 38 haste VS 175 armor penetration on a low armor boss, like solarian and see if the results are any different.
Reducing mitigation from 14.3% to 13.2% means you deal (1-.132)/(1-.143)=1.0128 or 1.28% more DPS, not 0.8%. Still less than 5k.
With a lower armor boss it would've been slightly more, but if you calculate you'll see the difference won't turn the tide in the comarison mentioned above.
It's easy to calculate on different armor levels as armor penetration damage increase is independant of what kinds of damage you were doing, as it's all physical and affected by armor (except rend maybe?).
With a lower armor boss it would've been slightly more, but if you calculate you'll see the difference won't turn the tide in the comarison mentioned above.
It's easy to calculate on different armor levels as armor penetration damage increase is independant of what kinds of damage you were doing, as it's all physical and affected by armor (except rend maybe?).
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Originally Posted by galzohar
Reducing mitigation from 14.3% to 13.2% means you deal (1-.132)/(1-.143)=1.0128 or 1.28% more DPS, not 0.8%. Still less than 5k.
With a lower armor boss it would've been slightly more, but if you calculate you'll see the difference won't turn the tide in the comarison mentioned above. It's easy to calculate on different armor levels as armor penetration damage increase is independant of what kinds of damage you were doing, as it's all physical and affected by armor (except rend maybe?). |
The 1200 TPS tank claims still itched me, so I patched a small Excel sheet together to analyze Teron Gorefiend fights from default, EJ and Four Kings listed on lossendil. Teron is as close to tank & spank as it gets in our state of progress, the tank has to have high TPS and should have plenty of rage.
I used the data in this thread in the EU forums for my calculations.
This are the assumptions and simplifications I made:
- Sunder armor is not listed in the WWS parses for some reason, so I just assumed every tank did 5 sunders and sticked to devastate after that.
- I ignored the threat gain from buffs/debuffs like commanding shout/demoralizing shout. They are hard to track in the WWS parses and their impact should be negligible.
- I calculated the passive healing threat in the best way possible for the tank. According to ingame tool tips I assumed healing threat is affected by defensive stance, but not by defiance. I did not split healing threat between Teron and the constructs (since they are "out of phase"), but to be honest it's very likely the healing threat is split in this fight, it was just much easier to calculate it in this way.
Anyways here are the results:
Frezy, default
Paches, EJ
Gordo, Four Kings
To be honest, these numbers seem to be very low, even for me. But on the other hand I double checked everything, so unless I got something fundamentally wrong, or missed something, 1200 TPS tanks are simply a myth, because I highly doubt a shaman will increase your TPS output by 50%.
Feel free to prove me wrong, I even wish you did =)
I used the data in this thread in the EU forums for my calculations.
This are the assumptions and simplifications I made:
- Sunder armor is not listed in the WWS parses for some reason, so I just assumed every tank did 5 sunders and sticked to devastate after that.
- I ignored the threat gain from buffs/debuffs like commanding shout/demoralizing shout. They are hard to track in the WWS parses and their impact should be negligible.
- I calculated the passive healing threat in the best way possible for the tank. According to ingame tool tips I assumed healing threat is affected by defensive stance, but not by defiance. I did not split healing threat between Teron and the constructs (since they are "out of phase"), but to be honest it's very likely the healing threat is split in this fight, it was just much easier to calculate it in this way.
Anyways here are the results:
Frezy, default
Paches, EJ
Gordo, Four Kings
To be honest, these numbers seem to be very low, even for me. But on the other hand I double checked everything, so unless I got something fundamentally wrong, or missed something, 1200 TPS tanks are simply a myth, because I highly doubt a shaman will increase your TPS output by 50%.
Feel free to prove me wrong, I even wish you did =)
Edited onPatch 2.1.2
I'll play around with that spreadsheet myself, lets see.
[edit]
Our tank
Those numbers seem a bit more realistic.
[edit]
Our tank
Those numbers seem a bit more realistic.
Last edited by svagftw : 07/08/07 at 8:48 AM.
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Originally Posted by svagftw
I'll play around with that spreadsheet myself, lets see.
[edit] Our tank Those numbers seem a bit more realistic. |
Devestates, Heroic Strikes, SS, raw dmg, healing which gives the tank agro and then you get a threat number, this you divide / time and then you have a REAL (not hypotetically) TPS over a fight!!
Well if you do less than the theorycrafted cycle, either you're short of rage, the fight doesn't allow attacking 100% of the time or your tank was simply slacking... So if a spreadsheet shows 1200 tps on a tank&spank unlimited rage fight there's no excuse to get less if the spreadsheet doesn't use bogus data (like not counting misses or stuff like that).
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Originally Posted by galzohar
Well if you do less than the theorycrafted cycle, either you're short of rage, the fight doesn't allow attacking 100% of the time or your tank was simply slacking... So if a spreadsheet shows 1200 tps on a tank&spank unlimited rage fight there's no excuse to get less if the spreadsheet doesn't use bogus data (like not counting misses or stuff like that).
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- 100% rage all the time
- tank does not Thunderclap (which can be ressisted)
- tank does not DemoShout (yet this task can be given to dps warriors)
- misses/dodges/parries
which is just plain and simple completly unrealistic!!!
And again there is no such tank&spank fight which would include all those above mentioned points. The very first second you dodge/parry or the mob misses you for a streak of attacks you are rage starved and this cycle is broken and every warrior will agree with me that the skill in TPS is bound to rage and cycleing the skills with the given rage you have.
So how can you get a real realistic TPS from tanks:
a) Choose a fight which you think is tank & spank
For the threat the skills are giving read:
b) http://forums.wow-europe.com/thread....94319875&sid=1
c) record a fight via WWS
d) Count the dmg / skills used / healing - threat of your MT
Then you get a threat number, divide this with the lenght of the fight and you have your real sustained TPS from the MT, and if Ghorms numbers are correct then this TPS spreadsheet is soo off from even comming close to realistic (~400TPS difference) that either:
1) numbers from b) are wrong
or
2) he completly miscalculated it, but i flew over it a bit and it seems correct.
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Originally Posted by galzohar
Well if you do less than the theorycrafted cycle, either you're short of rage, the fight doesn't allow attacking 100% of the time or your tank was simply slacking... So if a spreadsheet shows 1200 tps on a tank&spank unlimited rage fight there's no excuse to get less if the spreadsheet doesn't use bogus data (like not counting misses or stuff like that).
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If you read the thread of the TPS spreadsheet, the author even claims those values to be purely theoretically, which should give you an idea of possible TPS and, even more important, shows the impact of gear changes on your TPS.
If I find the time next week, I will try to verify, if healing agro is affected by defensive stance or not, already talked with one of our priests how to do it.
The real question is: are those numbers true? If yes, fury warriors (shadowpriests and ele/enh shamans) might be restricted by the agro ceiling soon. Those guys who claim their tanks are producing 1200 TPS, show those WWS parses, the calculations can even be done with pen and paper. Because either your tanks are doing something completely different than above posted 3 examples, or my calculations are simply wrong =)
1st if you're not taking misses/dodges into account, you really should. Dodges cannot be worked around (aside from weapon skill which you both aren't going to have and it doesn't really change much anyway), and very little tank gear has any hit rating on it. So you're probably going to be running with the full 5.6% dodge 8% miss (I think those are the numbers at least, worth verifying), cutting your 1200 TPS down to 1037.
Then if nobody keeps thunderclap/demo for you (as far as I noticed picking up TC for a dps warrior is easy but imp demo is not as easy, althogh possible if you really need it so you don't get threat capped ;p). Shouldn't be hard to add those to the rotation if applicible.
Shield block shouldn't have an effect on TPS beyond some extra rage requirement and the fact it's another thing to look at. It's not on the global cooldown so it shouldn't replace any normal moves you're using, just like heroic strike.
For mitigation I'm not sure how to really apply this as I don't actually own a warrior, but I suppose you can easily figure out how many attacks in a row you need to completely avoid to become rage starved (2? 1? 3?) and model it with the chance for such a streak to happen. For example if dodging/parrying 2 hits in a row means you don't have rage for the next 2 heroic strikes until you're hit again, and your total chance for being missed/dodge/parry is X, then (1-X)^2 of the time you'll lose 2 heroic strikes. This is just an example of course but you can easily adjust it in the model to reality.
My saying still stands that if reality doesn't match the theory, either you're doing something wrong in reality or your theory is wrong - but in both cases it's rarely something that cannot be fixed ;p
Then if nobody keeps thunderclap/demo for you (as far as I noticed picking up TC for a dps warrior is easy but imp demo is not as easy, althogh possible if you really need it so you don't get threat capped ;p). Shouldn't be hard to add those to the rotation if applicible.
Shield block shouldn't have an effect on TPS beyond some extra rage requirement and the fact it's another thing to look at. It's not on the global cooldown so it shouldn't replace any normal moves you're using, just like heroic strike.
For mitigation I'm not sure how to really apply this as I don't actually own a warrior, but I suppose you can easily figure out how many attacks in a row you need to completely avoid to become rage starved (2? 1? 3?) and model it with the chance for such a streak to happen. For example if dodging/parrying 2 hits in a row means you don't have rage for the next 2 heroic strikes until you're hit again, and your total chance for being missed/dodge/parry is X, then (1-X)^2 of the time you'll lose 2 heroic strikes. This is just an example of course but you can easily adjust it in the model to reality.
My saying still stands that if reality doesn't match the theory, either you're doing something wrong in reality or your theory is wrong - but in both cases it's rarely something that cannot be fixed ;p
How much TPS you can put out is very heavily correlated to how much damage reduction your mob has. The TPS spreadsheet defaults to 30%, which is at the high end for a generic raid-debuffed boss mob. It also doesn't account for threat from healing you do with Life Bloom, Prayer of Mending & Earth Shield (all of which, far as I know, get the full Defstance + Defiance bonus), damage done by Spell Reflect or rage gain from Bloodrage, Shield Specialisation and Unbridled Wrath.
The only significant effects there are the overestimation of damage reduction and ignoring of healing, still, it's sufficient to make the spreadsheet underestimate tps severely for certain fights.
As for the Gorefiend parses, my immediate guess would be that Gorefiend has pretty good damage reduction and/or his dps on the tank is insufficient to allow full ability spam. The players presented managed to hit, assuming your assumptions on Sunder use were correct:
Frezy: 2.97 seconds/instant, 3.03 seconds/hs
Paches: 2.09 seconds/instant, 3.81 seconds/hs
Gordo: 3.37 seconds/instant, 3.19 seconds/hs
Even accounting for miss, dodge, block & parry all were well below maximum ability spam. Presumably for good reasons, such as debuffs or lack of rage, but nevertheless. I suppose the obvious question is if anyone has seen a tank solidly maintain 1200ish TPS on that fight in particular? If it is a high-DR boss then 800-900 TPS is a very believable value for near-optimal play from a tank that can perform 1100-1200 TPS on a boss that is reduced to near 0 armour.
The only significant effects there are the overestimation of damage reduction and ignoring of healing, still, it's sufficient to make the spreadsheet underestimate tps severely for certain fights.
As for the Gorefiend parses, my immediate guess would be that Gorefiend has pretty good damage reduction and/or his dps on the tank is insufficient to allow full ability spam. The players presented managed to hit, assuming your assumptions on Sunder use were correct:
Frezy: 2.97 seconds/instant, 3.03 seconds/hs
Paches: 2.09 seconds/instant, 3.81 seconds/hs
Gordo: 3.37 seconds/instant, 3.19 seconds/hs
Even accounting for miss, dodge, block & parry all were well below maximum ability spam. Presumably for good reasons, such as debuffs or lack of rage, but nevertheless. I suppose the obvious question is if anyone has seen a tank solidly maintain 1200ish TPS on that fight in particular? If it is a high-DR boss then 800-900 TPS is a very believable value for near-optimal play from a tank that can perform 1100-1200 TPS on a boss that is reduced to near 0 armour.
Edited onPatch 2.1.3
Hi am sorry if this has been seen previously but figured id ask the question right away.
Am currently raid leading for a guild entering BT and even if the dps warrior spot is already granted am still trying to study which is best for the raid between fury and arms with BF.
Here are my non theorycrafted pros and cons.
Fury :
Pros : Higher DPS
Cons : Higher Threat.
Arms :
Pros : Increases the raid dps even in tank gear
Cons : Lower dps (how much lower is quite the question tho)
I'd like to know pretty much what guidelines are there between picking the two specs in term of general raid efficiency i guess the 2 important values in the equation are the tank threat if applicable and the physical dps of the raid (atm we tend to run caster heavy).
Am currently raid leading for a guild entering BT and even if the dps warrior spot is already granted am still trying to study which is best for the raid between fury and arms with BF.
Here are my non theorycrafted pros and cons.
Fury :
Pros : Higher DPS
Cons : Higher Threat.
Arms :
Pros : Increases the raid dps even in tank gear
Cons : Lower dps (how much lower is quite the question tho)
I'd like to know pretty much what guidelines are there between picking the two specs in term of general raid efficiency i guess the 2 important values in the equation are the tank threat if applicable and the physical dps of the raid (atm we tend to run caster heavy).
Last edited by Runemist : 07/10/07 at 8:35 AM.
Your rogues will stop crying when they will get 382 AP Battle shout.
*452 bshout, solarian trinket!
Without knowing your raid composition, saying "caster heavy" should lean you away from blood frenzy. There's always going to be a break point at which BF spec raid DPS is higher than the same warrior as fury minus his individual BF spec dps. You won't reach that break point with only a few melee.
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Originally Posted by Runemist
I'd like to know pretty much what guidelines are there between picking the two specs in term of general raid efficiency i guess the 2 important values in the equation are the tank threat if applicable and the physical dps of the raid (atm we tend to run caster heavy).
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Edited onPatch 2.1.3
Ok sorry, General raid build
G1 MT1 MT2 FeralDruid Paladin Aff Lock
G2 Priest1 Priest2 Pal Pal RestoDruid
G3 SP1 SP2 Mag Mag Mag
G4 Rsham SP3 Lock Lock Hunter
G5 DPSwar Rog Rog Rog Enhsham
Edit : I realise there is an easy answer, (ie BF becomes superior when 4% of raid physical dps is superior to your dps loss). But however i have a hard time finding out the diff between top arms warriors and top fury (saw some 2k dps vids on warrior favored fights so i guess on those fury >> BF)
Edit2 : Seems lot of the stuff is being discussed around page 9 for pure theory, just need the "practical" input in hyjal and BT from people who tested both there :p
G1 MT1 MT2 FeralDruid Paladin Aff Lock
G2 Priest1 Priest2 Pal Pal RestoDruid
G3 SP1 SP2 Mag Mag Mag
G4 Rsham SP3 Lock Lock Hunter
G5 DPSwar Rog Rog Rog Enhsham
Edit : I realise there is an easy answer, (ie BF becomes superior when 4% of raid physical dps is superior to your dps loss). But however i have a hard time finding out the diff between top arms warriors and top fury (saw some 2k dps vids on warrior favored fights so i guess on those fury >> BF)
Edit2 : Seems lot of the stuff is being discussed around page 9 for pure theory, just need the "practical" input in hyjal and BT from people who tested both there :p
Last edited by Runemist : 07/10/07 at 10:21 AM.
After reading all this, it does seem possible (especially with haste gear) for imp slam DPS to be high enough that when you add BF to certain raid makeups it becomes better than fury, but it's probably going to remain situational. For most warriors and the gear they have access to, and for most balanced (i.e. non-melee heavy) raids I feel safe saying that fury is superior.
Also, as was pointed out, the haste gear does not seem to favor 2h stats, since it tends to have +hit.
Also, as was pointed out, the haste gear does not seem to favor 2h stats, since it tends to have +hit.
Edited onPatch 2.1.3
In the fury vs arms debate....
I've been having a hell of a time justifying fury in the last week or 2. The players;
ME
HIM
Damage wise i'm coming out about 5-8% ahead of him on most fights....and his spec is somewhat retarded when it comes to PvE dps...no imp slam, no flurry.
He's got me beat by like 3400 hp, and is crit immune through resilience, so if he pulls agro he can usually survive it...unlike me.
Starting to wonder if there's even a point to fury, when i can just go MS and PvP well.
We are 2/6 SSC, 1/4 TK, with Mag down...I've got every piece of gear possible DPS wise except the boots off of Tidewalker, and helm off of VR, which haven't dropped. Getting the gladiator main-hand next week.
Edit; Came across a lot whinier then i wanted....had an annoying night in TK last night with 3 wipes on VR because healers couldn't keep the MT up...and having the other DPS warrior tank him for like a few % after i got 1 shotted for 19k crit. He continues to insist that he can tank with no problem in that gear, and frequently tanks heroics in it....he also is making no attempt to get "traditional" tanking gear in any way, shape or form.
I've been having a hell of a time justifying fury in the last week or 2. The players;
ME
HIM
Damage wise i'm coming out about 5-8% ahead of him on most fights....and his spec is somewhat retarded when it comes to PvE dps...no imp slam, no flurry.
He's got me beat by like 3400 hp, and is crit immune through resilience, so if he pulls agro he can usually survive it...unlike me.
Starting to wonder if there's even a point to fury, when i can just go MS and PvP well.
We are 2/6 SSC, 1/4 TK, with Mag down...I've got every piece of gear possible DPS wise except the boots off of Tidewalker, and helm off of VR, which haven't dropped. Getting the gladiator main-hand next week.
Edit; Came across a lot whinier then i wanted....had an annoying night in TK last night with 3 wipes on VR because healers couldn't keep the MT up...and having the other DPS warrior tank him for like a few % after i got 1 shotted for 19k crit. He continues to insist that he can tank with no problem in that gear, and frequently tanks heroics in it....he also is making no attempt to get "traditional" tanking gear in any way, shape or form.
Last edited by Calgar : 07/11/07 at 11:03 AM.
I am kind of in the same boat Calgar.
I recently switched to Fury from Prot. Our MT spot is well-covered and after being Prot for my entire PVE career I was just sick of being an offtank. I had been going Arms for 1 day a week to Arena, but decided on Fury because I thought it was the best PVE DPS build and frankly dual wield is a little more 'fun' than 2h, maybe just because it was new to me.
My gear was decent to start with, at least coming from Prot, but it was very PVP heavy stuff and still is to a certain extent. My Chest, Offhand, Legs, Shoulders, Feet and Ranged are all Arena rewards. Check my profile if you are curious, I know I still have a ways to go with gear but I am getting there. We have SSC cleared and are working on Kael'thas.
My DPS is ok. I can pretty much never beat our best Rogue. I can sometimes beat the other two, but it really depends on the fight. Generally I am behind at least one of them, but competitive with them. I did top the charts at our last Kazzak, and consistently finish top 3 at Magtheridon, but that was all Recklessness. I dont have an Arms Warrior to bench myself against lately, but I feel like Arms is probably the way to go for Blood Frenzy alone. I am sure my personal DPS would suffer some but the raid DPS would almost certainly overcome that gap.
I recently switched to Fury from Prot. Our MT spot is well-covered and after being Prot for my entire PVE career I was just sick of being an offtank. I had been going Arms for 1 day a week to Arena, but decided on Fury because I thought it was the best PVE DPS build and frankly dual wield is a little more 'fun' than 2h, maybe just because it was new to me.
My gear was decent to start with, at least coming from Prot, but it was very PVP heavy stuff and still is to a certain extent. My Chest, Offhand, Legs, Shoulders, Feet and Ranged are all Arena rewards. Check my profile if you are curious, I know I still have a ways to go with gear but I am getting there. We have SSC cleared and are working on Kael'thas.
My DPS is ok. I can pretty much never beat our best Rogue. I can sometimes beat the other two, but it really depends on the fight. Generally I am behind at least one of them, but competitive with them. I did top the charts at our last Kazzak, and consistently finish top 3 at Magtheridon, but that was all Recklessness. I dont have an Arms Warrior to bench myself against lately, but I feel like Arms is probably the way to go for Blood Frenzy alone. I am sure my personal DPS would suffer some but the raid DPS would almost certainly overcome that gap.
On Morogrim last night I got my weapon speeds down to 1.03/0.57 speed. The haste buffs I had were flurry, mongoose proc, heroism, dragonstrike proc, and a haste potion. My weapons are Dragonstrike (2.7 spd) and Merciless Gladitor's Quickblade (1.5 spd). My guild is 5/6 bosses down in SSC. Also 1/4 bosses down in TK. So I have no haste gear. I was wondering what is the fastest some of you BT/Hyjal geared warriors can get their weapons to.
Also I was wondering is it possible to make a macro to pop deathwish, haste potion, and my trinket(also maybe recklessness) all at the same time so it only uses one GCD.
Also I was wondering is it possible to make a macro to pop deathwish, haste potion, and my trinket(also maybe recklessness) all at the same time so it only uses one GCD.
Edited onPatch 2.1.3
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Originally Posted by warriorninja
it possible to make a macro to pop deathwish, haste potion, and my trinket(also maybe recklessness) all at the same time so it only uses one GCD.
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Last edited by vyedma : 07/11/07 at 2:02 PM.
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Originally Posted by vyedma
The best you can do is make a macro that you have to press for each GCD that you need to use. Ie: once for deathwish, potion, and recklessness. Trinkets don't pop the GCD so you can link your trinket and 1 other thing at the same time. Otherwise you have to either push the same button multiple times, and mulitple buttons once.
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@Calgar, Hozz
Depending on your raid-setup having Blood Frenzy can be a viable adition.
To be viable the rest raid has to have 25 times as much physical DPS as you are losing personally.
So if you lose, say, 100 DPS personally, your raid needs to have 2500 physical DPS total(Rogues, Hunters, Enh. Shaman, Feral Druids, Ret. Palas(not all DPS physical), other Fury Warriors and your MTs) for the respec to be viable.
As there is no spreadsheet for 2-hand, you have to be going by your own observations of course.
Additional advantages are:
# less threat for you
# more threat for the MT(s)
# PvP viability
Disadvantages are:
# less ego boost
# no effect on bleed immune bosses
Depending on your raid-setup having Blood Frenzy can be a viable adition.
To be viable the rest raid has to have 25 times as much physical DPS as you are losing personally.
So if you lose, say, 100 DPS personally, your raid needs to have 2500 physical DPS total(Rogues, Hunters, Enh. Shaman, Feral Druids, Ret. Palas(not all DPS physical), other Fury Warriors and your MTs) for the respec to be viable.
As there is no spreadsheet for 2-hand, you have to be going by your own observations of course.
Additional advantages are:
# less threat for you
# more threat for the MT(s)
# PvP viability
Disadvantages are:
# less ego boost
# no effect on bleed immune bosses
I've been dpsing as a 2h in my raids and there are definitely aggro problems with 2h as well. I usually can pull aggro pretty much 60% into the battle if i felt like but i usually tend try to law low if i get a string of monster crits. I've been noticeing spikeing wf procs and crits which isn't all to bad but do mass damage in a short amt of time causing some aggro spikes. I'm gonna admit that being on top of damage meters is pretty hard for me to obtain but I still do about the same percent as everyone else in encounters that is melee friendly. My gear is still kind of lacking in some areas but still gonna be trying to be viable in raids.
So, I've been looking thru this thread, fairly quickly admittedly, and at other threads, and I still have a question:
Does anyone reliably know how much rage is generated per damage done?
I've been doing some math and the rage from my average swing (Deep thunder, about 1900 self buffed AP, average hit on a mob being roughly 550-700 damage after armor). In game i get about 15 rage a swing. According to the WowWiki formula i should be getting 24-28. I know not to rely on wowwiki, but I'd like to know if anyone has actually figured out a way to calculate your rage gen based on damage. I've been trying to write a warrior dps simulator, mainly because I'm bored at work, and I know my gen rage is wrong.
Does anyone reliably know how much rage is generated per damage done?
I've been doing some math and the rage from my average swing (Deep thunder, about 1900 self buffed AP, average hit on a mob being roughly 550-700 damage after armor). In game i get about 15 rage a swing. According to the WowWiki formula i should be getting 24-28. I know not to rely on wowwiki, but I'd like to know if anyone has actually figured out a way to calculate your rage gen based on damage. I've been trying to write a warrior dps simulator, mainly because I'm bored at work, and I know my gen rage is wrong.
Edited onPatch 2.1.3
WWS of our Shade kill from tonight: Shade WWS (Click Here)
I'm 31/30 Arms PvP spec. I did almost as good as svag.. and I only use 1 weapon! :P
I'm 31/30 Arms PvP spec. I did almost as good as svag.. and I only use 1 weapon! :P
Last edited by Gokey : 07/13/07 at 1:18 AM.
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Originally Posted by MirithD
So, I've been looking thru this thread, fairly quickly admittedly, and at other threads, and I still have a question:
Does anyone reliably know how much rage is generated per damage done? I've been doing some math and the rage from my average swing (Deep thunder, about 1900 self buffed AP, average hit on a mob being roughly 550-700 damage after armor). In game i get about 15 rage a swing. According to the WowWiki formula i should be getting 24-28. I know not to rely on wowwiki, but I'd like to know if anyone has actually figured out a way to calculate your rage gen based on damage. I've been trying to write a warrior dps simulator, mainly because I'm bored at work, and I know my gen rage is wrong. |
Edited onPatch 2.1.3
I'm just going to pretend this post never happened and you're going to pretend you never saw it.
Last edited by Hoonboof : 07/13/07 at 6:56 AM. Reason: being a dumbass
Akama, not Aran.
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Originally Posted by anticide
Akama, not Aran.
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Hi everyone;
I have a question about 2 items comparaison.
Fel-Steel Warhelm against Furious Gizmatic Goggles
it's approximatively (i don't care about stamina) 13 hit rating + 2 crit rating againt 6 streng + Thundering Skyfire Diamond
OR 13 hit rating + 2 crit rating againt 6 streng + 24ap
my stats (approx) : 1700ap (zerg) 150 HR 31% crit (zerg)
Instinctively I would say that the googles are better.
what would you do ? I'm sorry to bother you with that but i can't use the spreadsheet since i don't have excel (nor oppen office)
I have a question about 2 items comparaison.
Fel-Steel Warhelm against Furious Gizmatic Goggles
it's approximatively (i don't care about stamina) 13 hit rating + 2 crit rating againt 6 streng + Thundering Skyfire Diamond
OR 13 hit rating + 2 crit rating againt 6 streng + 24ap
my stats (approx) : 1700ap (zerg) 150 HR 31% crit (zerg)
Instinctively I would say that the googles are better.
what would you do ? I'm sorry to bother you with that but i can't use the spreadsheet since i don't have excel (nor oppen office)
I've been reading this thread for a long time, I hate to ask a question without large logs, but I don't have links to our WWS atm. I'm hoping that I'm just missing some blatant hole of logic in the following.
My GF plays our teams fury warrior. Her and I spend a lot of time working through theorycraft to find the best gear for her. She had been wielding:
MH: Fel edged Battle axe.
OH: Malkazeen
Both weapons have decent dps, good stats and both with mongoose(I know there are arguments here that she should have potency on at least one of those. I disagree, but thats not what I'm meaning to talk about here).
Recently she picked up the offhand merciless gladiator sword. Strapped mongoose on it and has been raiding switching either the axe or malkazeen into the MH.
However, since she picked up the sword she has seen a significant drop in her general dps, and in her WF procs specifically. Is this probably just a string of bad luck? Or is there something in the stats or speed of the weapons that I'm missing here?
We want to work more in raids to test it, but she feels bad about bringing down the teams dps on new content this weekend. We put everything into the spreadsheet, but it doesnt seem to be working atm, at least the one we dl'd which seemed like the latest version.
The Armory
My GF plays our teams fury warrior. Her and I spend a lot of time working through theorycraft to find the best gear for her. She had been wielding:
MH: Fel edged Battle axe.
OH: Malkazeen
Both weapons have decent dps, good stats and both with mongoose(I know there are arguments here that she should have potency on at least one of those. I disagree, but thats not what I'm meaning to talk about here).
Recently she picked up the offhand merciless gladiator sword. Strapped mongoose on it and has been raiding switching either the axe or malkazeen into the MH.
However, since she picked up the sword she has seen a significant drop in her general dps, and in her WF procs specifically. Is this probably just a string of bad luck? Or is there something in the stats or speed of the weapons that I'm missing here?
We want to work more in raids to test it, but she feels bad about bringing down the teams dps on new content this weekend. We put everything into the spreadsheet, but it doesnt seem to be working atm, at least the one we dl'd which seemed like the latest version.
The Armory
Edited onPatch 2.1.3
Depends....dual wield or 2-hander....If you are dual wield, then you need that extra hit if you are only at 150.
For a 2 hander go for the other stats IMO.
EDIT: @ Lambach, she needs a slow main-hand IMO. Whirlwind and hamstring spam to proc WF makes up a large portion of our DPS. If she was using mal main-hand, i'd expect her to lose ~45 damage per whirlwind (~5 dps worth) and an equal amount of DPS on each spamstring proc.
She should have saved up for the Gladiator main-hand and off-handed mal IMO
Edit2: just checked her armory....her AP is abysmal for fury, especially connsidering the caliber of her gear. I'd suggest dropping 20 hit rating for as much str/AP you can get.
-Putting potency on the off-hand.
-I'd suggest the choker of vile intent badge reward neck. Minor loss in hit for a HUGE gain in AP, stamina AND crit.
-Switch the helm gem to str/crit, agility isn't a great stat for warriors in general and she's not hurting for hit.
-The meta i don't particularly like...more a fan of 12agi/3% crit damage myself.
-15 str on the gloves 1% more white damage with haste, or 30 more AP affecting both yellow AND white damage...also makes WF hits bigger.
-Get rid of bladefist's breadth for either a bloodlust brooch or hourglass IMO.
For a 2 hander go for the other stats IMO.
EDIT: @ Lambach, she needs a slow main-hand IMO. Whirlwind and hamstring spam to proc WF makes up a large portion of our DPS. If she was using mal main-hand, i'd expect her to lose ~45 damage per whirlwind (~5 dps worth) and an equal amount of DPS on each spamstring proc.
She should have saved up for the Gladiator main-hand and off-handed mal IMO
Edit2: just checked her armory....her AP is abysmal for fury, especially connsidering the caliber of her gear. I'd suggest dropping 20 hit rating for as much str/AP you can get.
-Putting potency on the off-hand.
-I'd suggest the choker of vile intent badge reward neck. Minor loss in hit for a HUGE gain in AP, stamina AND crit.
-Switch the helm gem to str/crit, agility isn't a great stat for warriors in general and she's not hurting for hit.
-The meta i don't particularly like...more a fan of 12agi/3% crit damage myself.
-15 str on the gloves 1% more white damage with haste, or 30 more AP affecting both yellow AND white damage...also makes WF hits bigger.
-Get rid of bladefist's breadth for either a bloodlust brooch or hourglass IMO.
Last edited by Calgar : 07/13/07 at 11:45 AM.
How is Legacy for a 2H Arms warrior? I picked it up to replace Crystalforged and am biding my time till I can pick up a Gladiator Mace for PvP
Edited onPatch 2.1.3
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Originally Posted by Machinator
I believe the wowwiki formula to be accurate, as it is taken from a blue post and I dont remember any rage mechanic changes since that post. When I use that formula it comes out pretty close to in-game observation. Also check your math, when I use your numbers you should be getting close to 15 rage per swing with Deep Thunder hitting for 700.
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Ok, I see one of my mistakes, thank you, but the part i'm confused about is: Should it be (dam/conversion)*(7.5+(Speed*Factor))/2 or ((7.5*dam/conversion)+(Speed*factor))/2 or ((dam/(conv*7.5))+(speed*factor))/2?
Last edited by MirithD : 07/13/07 at 1:37 PM.
Ok, I see one of my mistakes, thank you, but the part i'm confused about is: Should it be (dam/conversion)*(7.5+(Speed*Factor)/2 or ((7.5*dam/conversion)+(Speed*factor))/2 or ((dam/(conv*7.5))+(speed*factor))/2?[/quote]
The idea is that the rage from damage you do is averaged with a constant based on weapon speed. So
( ((Damage/Conversion)*7.5) + (Speed*Factor) ) /2 = Rage
So with your example of Deep Thunder at 3.8 speed hitting for 700.
( ((700/274.7)*7.5) + (3.8*3.5) ) /2 = ~16.2 Rage
The idea is that the rage from damage you do is averaged with a constant based on weapon speed. So
( ((Damage/Conversion)*7.5) + (Speed*Factor) ) /2 = Rage
So with your example of Deep Thunder at 3.8 speed hitting for 700.
( ((700/274.7)*7.5) + (3.8*3.5) ) /2 = ~16.2 Rage
Yea the fight is tailored more for a 2h to WW / cleave adds but your rogues did very little damage from BF and you did most of your damage from WW and cleave which means you werent hitting the same targets.
The damage lilgokey did is great but its not a fair comparison to svags unless we can see a video. I say this because im only interested in the comparisons from fury to arms dps, you can do more dps through your aoe abilities but im guessing your dps went down greatly once it was back to single targets.
The damage lilgokey did is great but its not a fair comparison to svags unless we can see a video. I say this because im only interested in the comparisons from fury to arms dps, you can do more dps through your aoe abilities but im guessing your dps went down greatly once it was back to single targets.
Edited onPatch 2.1.3
There are too many factors to consider when trying to compare two handed AE to DW. By default two handed weapons do more damage than a one hander, but AP tends to equalize it somewhat. You also have to factor in the amount of Cleaves you can do with either weapon within a specific amount of time, whether or not you have enough rage to continually use them on every new weapon swing, Flurry, Windfury, Sweeping Strikes, etc. What happens when all of the multiple target opportunities are gone and it's back to single target?
Last edited by Graul : 07/13/07 at 5:17 PM.
Edited onPatch 2.1.3
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Originally Posted by Malarkus
Yea the fight is tailored more for a 2h to WW / cleave adds but your rogues did very little damage from BF and you did most of your damage from WW and cleave which means you werent hitting the same targets.
The damage lilgokey did is great but its not a fair comparison to svags unless we can see a video. I say this because im only interested in the comparisons from fury to arms dps, you can do more dps through your aoe abilities but im guessing your dps went down greatly once it was back to single targets. |
I wasn't trying to imply that Arms is better than Fury. I believe that Fury is superior in most aspects. The one area Arms is going to exceed Fury's capability is multi-target DPS. I suspect that if I can better improve my target selection and get a bunch of debuff bitches; I can easily sustain 3000 DPS, and burst to around 4000. Sadly, this is going to be limited to this fight alone, but it's fun nonetheless!
Also, I can't really run FRAPS because my computer is really old (I won it at a tournament in 2003). I'm lucky to sustain 20 FPS on most raid encounters. Killing my FPS probably would kill my DPS as well.
Last edited by Gokey : 07/15/07 at 1:41 AM.
Straight forward as of now, what is the best for raid dps 31/30 or a DW fury build??
Recently my guild got into a heated debate and I'm hoping you guys can help us out.
Thanks for your time.
Recently my guild got into a heated debate and I'm hoping you guys can help us out.
Thanks for your time.
Edited onPatch 2.1.3
Ok sorry, General raid build
G1 MT1 MT2 FeralDruid Paladin Aff Lock
G2 Priest1 Priest2 Pal Pal RestoDruid
G3 SP1 SP2 Mag Mag Mag
G4 Rsham SP3 Lock Lock Hunter
G5 DPSwar Rog Rog Rog Enhsham
Edit : I realise there is an easy answer, (ie BF becomes superior when 4% of raid physical dps is superior to your dps loss). But however i have a hard time finding out the diff between top arms warriors and top fury (saw some 2k dps vids on warrior favored fights so i guess on those fury >> BF)
Edit2 : Seems lot of the stuff is being discussed around page 9 for pure theory, just need the "practical" input in hyjal and BT from people who tested both there :p
G1 MT1 MT2 FeralDruid Paladin Aff Lock
G2 Priest1 Priest2 Pal Pal RestoDruid
G3 SP1 SP2 Mag Mag Mag
G4 Rsham SP3 Lock Lock Hunter
G5 DPSwar Rog Rog Rog Enhsham
Edit : I realise there is an easy answer, (ie BF becomes superior when 4% of raid physical dps is superior to your dps loss). But however i have a hard time finding out the diff between top arms warriors and top fury (saw some 2k dps vids on warrior favored fights so i guess on those fury >> BF)
Edit2 : Seems lot of the stuff is being discussed around page 9 for pure theory, just need the "practical" input in hyjal and BT from people who tested both there :p
Last edited by Runemist : 07/10/07 at 10:21 AM.
After reading all this, it does seem possible (especially with haste gear) for imp slam DPS to be high enough that when you add BF to certain raid makeups it becomes better than fury, but it's probably going to remain situational. For most warriors and the gear they have access to, and for most balanced (i.e. non-melee heavy) raids I feel safe saying that fury is superior.
Also, as was pointed out, the haste gear does not seem to favor 2h stats, since it tends to have +hit.
Also, as was pointed out, the haste gear does not seem to favor 2h stats, since it tends to have +hit.
Edited onPatch 2.1.3
In the fury vs arms debate....
I've been having a hell of a time justifying fury in the last week or 2. The players;
ME
HIM
Damage wise i'm coming out about 5-8% ahead of him on most fights....and his spec is somewhat retarded when it comes to PvE dps...no imp slam, no flurry.
He's got me beat by like 3400 hp, and is crit immune through resilience, so if he pulls agro he can usually survive it...unlike me.
Starting to wonder if there's even a point to fury, when i can just go MS and PvP well.
We are 2/6 SSC, 1/4 TK, with Mag down...I've got every piece of gear possible DPS wise except the boots off of Tidewalker, and helm off of VR, which haven't dropped. Getting the gladiator main-hand next week.
Edit; Came across a lot whinier then i wanted....had an annoying night in TK last night with 3 wipes on VR because healers couldn't keep the MT up...and having the other DPS warrior tank him for like a few % after i got 1 shotted for 19k crit. He continues to insist that he can tank with no problem in that gear, and frequently tanks heroics in it....he also is making no attempt to get "traditional" tanking gear in any way, shape or form.
I've been having a hell of a time justifying fury in the last week or 2. The players;
ME
HIM
Damage wise i'm coming out about 5-8% ahead of him on most fights....and his spec is somewhat retarded when it comes to PvE dps...no imp slam, no flurry.
He's got me beat by like 3400 hp, and is crit immune through resilience, so if he pulls agro he can usually survive it...unlike me.
Starting to wonder if there's even a point to fury, when i can just go MS and PvP well.
We are 2/6 SSC, 1/4 TK, with Mag down...I've got every piece of gear possible DPS wise except the boots off of Tidewalker, and helm off of VR, which haven't dropped. Getting the gladiator main-hand next week.
Edit; Came across a lot whinier then i wanted....had an annoying night in TK last night with 3 wipes on VR because healers couldn't keep the MT up...and having the other DPS warrior tank him for like a few % after i got 1 shotted for 19k crit. He continues to insist that he can tank with no problem in that gear, and frequently tanks heroics in it....he also is making no attempt to get "traditional" tanking gear in any way, shape or form.
Last edited by Calgar : 07/11/07 at 11:03 AM.
I am kind of in the same boat Calgar.
I recently switched to Fury from Prot. Our MT spot is well-covered and after being Prot for my entire PVE career I was just sick of being an offtank. I had been going Arms for 1 day a week to Arena, but decided on Fury because I thought it was the best PVE DPS build and frankly dual wield is a little more 'fun' than 2h, maybe just because it was new to me.
My gear was decent to start with, at least coming from Prot, but it was very PVP heavy stuff and still is to a certain extent. My Chest, Offhand, Legs, Shoulders, Feet and Ranged are all Arena rewards. Check my profile if you are curious, I know I still have a ways to go with gear but I am getting there. We have SSC cleared and are working on Kael'thas.
My DPS is ok. I can pretty much never beat our best Rogue. I can sometimes beat the other two, but it really depends on the fight. Generally I am behind at least one of them, but competitive with them. I did top the charts at our last Kazzak, and consistently finish top 3 at Magtheridon, but that was all Recklessness. I dont have an Arms Warrior to bench myself against lately, but I feel like Arms is probably the way to go for Blood Frenzy alone. I am sure my personal DPS would suffer some but the raid DPS would almost certainly overcome that gap.
I recently switched to Fury from Prot. Our MT spot is well-covered and after being Prot for my entire PVE career I was just sick of being an offtank. I had been going Arms for 1 day a week to Arena, but decided on Fury because I thought it was the best PVE DPS build and frankly dual wield is a little more 'fun' than 2h, maybe just because it was new to me.
My gear was decent to start with, at least coming from Prot, but it was very PVP heavy stuff and still is to a certain extent. My Chest, Offhand, Legs, Shoulders, Feet and Ranged are all Arena rewards. Check my profile if you are curious, I know I still have a ways to go with gear but I am getting there. We have SSC cleared and are working on Kael'thas.
My DPS is ok. I can pretty much never beat our best Rogue. I can sometimes beat the other two, but it really depends on the fight. Generally I am behind at least one of them, but competitive with them. I did top the charts at our last Kazzak, and consistently finish top 3 at Magtheridon, but that was all Recklessness. I dont have an Arms Warrior to bench myself against lately, but I feel like Arms is probably the way to go for Blood Frenzy alone. I am sure my personal DPS would suffer some but the raid DPS would almost certainly overcome that gap.
On Morogrim last night I got my weapon speeds down to 1.03/0.57 speed. The haste buffs I had were flurry, mongoose proc, heroism, dragonstrike proc, and a haste potion. My weapons are Dragonstrike (2.7 spd) and Merciless Gladitor's Quickblade (1.5 spd). My guild is 5/6 bosses down in SSC. Also 1/4 bosses down in TK. So I have no haste gear. I was wondering what is the fastest some of you BT/Hyjal geared warriors can get their weapons to.
Also I was wondering is it possible to make a macro to pop deathwish, haste potion, and my trinket(also maybe recklessness) all at the same time so it only uses one GCD.
Also I was wondering is it possible to make a macro to pop deathwish, haste potion, and my trinket(also maybe recklessness) all at the same time so it only uses one GCD.
Edited onPatch 2.1.3
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Originally Posted by warriorninja
it possible to make a macro to pop deathwish, haste potion, and my trinket(also maybe recklessness) all at the same time so it only uses one GCD.
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Last edited by vyedma : 07/11/07 at 2:02 PM.
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Originally Posted by vyedma
The best you can do is make a macro that you have to press for each GCD that you need to use. Ie: once for deathwish, potion, and recklessness. Trinkets don't pop the GCD so you can link your trinket and 1 other thing at the same time. Otherwise you have to either push the same button multiple times, and mulitple buttons once.
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@Calgar, Hozz
Depending on your raid-setup having Blood Frenzy can be a viable adition.
To be viable the rest raid has to have 25 times as much physical DPS as you are losing personally.
So if you lose, say, 100 DPS personally, your raid needs to have 2500 physical DPS total(Rogues, Hunters, Enh. Shaman, Feral Druids, Ret. Palas(not all DPS physical), other Fury Warriors and your MTs) for the respec to be viable.
As there is no spreadsheet for 2-hand, you have to be going by your own observations of course.
Additional advantages are:
# less threat for you
# more threat for the MT(s)
# PvP viability
Disadvantages are:
# less ego boost
# no effect on bleed immune bosses
Depending on your raid-setup having Blood Frenzy can be a viable adition.
To be viable the rest raid has to have 25 times as much physical DPS as you are losing personally.
So if you lose, say, 100 DPS personally, your raid needs to have 2500 physical DPS total(Rogues, Hunters, Enh. Shaman, Feral Druids, Ret. Palas(not all DPS physical), other Fury Warriors and your MTs) for the respec to be viable.
As there is no spreadsheet for 2-hand, you have to be going by your own observations of course.
Additional advantages are:
# less threat for you
# more threat for the MT(s)
# PvP viability
Disadvantages are:
# less ego boost
# no effect on bleed immune bosses
I've been dpsing as a 2h in my raids and there are definitely aggro problems with 2h as well. I usually can pull aggro pretty much 60% into the battle if i felt like but i usually tend try to law low if i get a string of monster crits. I've been noticeing spikeing wf procs and crits which isn't all to bad but do mass damage in a short amt of time causing some aggro spikes. I'm gonna admit that being on top of damage meters is pretty hard for me to obtain but I still do about the same percent as everyone else in encounters that is melee friendly. My gear is still kind of lacking in some areas but still gonna be trying to be viable in raids.
So, I've been looking thru this thread, fairly quickly admittedly, and at other threads, and I still have a question:
Does anyone reliably know how much rage is generated per damage done?
I've been doing some math and the rage from my average swing (Deep thunder, about 1900 self buffed AP, average hit on a mob being roughly 550-700 damage after armor). In game i get about 15 rage a swing. According to the WowWiki formula i should be getting 24-28. I know not to rely on wowwiki, but I'd like to know if anyone has actually figured out a way to calculate your rage gen based on damage. I've been trying to write a warrior dps simulator, mainly because I'm bored at work, and I know my gen rage is wrong.
Does anyone reliably know how much rage is generated per damage done?
I've been doing some math and the rage from my average swing (Deep thunder, about 1900 self buffed AP, average hit on a mob being roughly 550-700 damage after armor). In game i get about 15 rage a swing. According to the WowWiki formula i should be getting 24-28. I know not to rely on wowwiki, but I'd like to know if anyone has actually figured out a way to calculate your rage gen based on damage. I've been trying to write a warrior dps simulator, mainly because I'm bored at work, and I know my gen rage is wrong.
Edited onPatch 2.1.3
WWS of our Shade kill from tonight: Shade WWS (Click Here)
I'm 31/30 Arms PvP spec. I did almost as good as svag.. and I only use 1 weapon! :P
I'm 31/30 Arms PvP spec. I did almost as good as svag.. and I only use 1 weapon! :P
Last edited by Gokey : 07/13/07 at 1:18 AM.
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Originally Posted by MirithD
So, I've been looking thru this thread, fairly quickly admittedly, and at other threads, and I still have a question:
Does anyone reliably know how much rage is generated per damage done? I've been doing some math and the rage from my average swing (Deep thunder, about 1900 self buffed AP, average hit on a mob being roughly 550-700 damage after armor). In game i get about 15 rage a swing. According to the WowWiki formula i should be getting 24-28. I know not to rely on wowwiki, but I'd like to know if anyone has actually figured out a way to calculate your rage gen based on damage. I've been trying to write a warrior dps simulator, mainly because I'm bored at work, and I know my gen rage is wrong. |
Edited onPatch 2.1.3
I'm just going to pretend this post never happened and you're going to pretend you never saw it.
Last edited by Hoonboof : 07/13/07 at 6:56 AM. Reason: being a dumbass
Akama, not Aran.
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Originally Posted by anticide
Akama, not Aran.
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Hi everyone;
I have a question about 2 items comparaison.
Fel-Steel Warhelm against Furious Gizmatic Goggles
it's approximatively (i don't care about stamina) 13 hit rating + 2 crit rating againt 6 streng + Thundering Skyfire Diamond
OR 13 hit rating + 2 crit rating againt 6 streng + 24ap
my stats (approx) : 1700ap (zerg) 150 HR 31% crit (zerg)
Instinctively I would say that the googles are better.
what would you do ? I'm sorry to bother you with that but i can't use the spreadsheet since i don't have excel (nor oppen office)
I have a question about 2 items comparaison.
Fel-Steel Warhelm against Furious Gizmatic Goggles
it's approximatively (i don't care about stamina) 13 hit rating + 2 crit rating againt 6 streng + Thundering Skyfire Diamond
OR 13 hit rating + 2 crit rating againt 6 streng + 24ap
my stats (approx) : 1700ap (zerg) 150 HR 31% crit (zerg)
Instinctively I would say that the googles are better.
what would you do ? I'm sorry to bother you with that but i can't use the spreadsheet since i don't have excel (nor oppen office)
I've been reading this thread for a long time, I hate to ask a question without large logs, but I don't have links to our WWS atm. I'm hoping that I'm just missing some blatant hole of logic in the following.
My GF plays our teams fury warrior. Her and I spend a lot of time working through theorycraft to find the best gear for her. She had been wielding:
MH: Fel edged Battle axe.
OH: Malkazeen
Both weapons have decent dps, good stats and both with mongoose(I know there are arguments here that she should have potency on at least one of those. I disagree, but thats not what I'm meaning to talk about here).
Recently she picked up the offhand merciless gladiator sword. Strapped mongoose on it and has been raiding switching either the axe or malkazeen into the MH.
However, since she picked up the sword she has seen a significant drop in her general dps, and in her WF procs specifically. Is this probably just a string of bad luck? Or is there something in the stats or speed of the weapons that I'm missing here?
We want to work more in raids to test it, but she feels bad about bringing down the teams dps on new content this weekend. We put everything into the spreadsheet, but it doesnt seem to be working atm, at least the one we dl'd which seemed like the latest version.
The Armory
My GF plays our teams fury warrior. Her and I spend a lot of time working through theorycraft to find the best gear for her. She had been wielding:
MH: Fel edged Battle axe.
OH: Malkazeen
Both weapons have decent dps, good stats and both with mongoose(I know there are arguments here that she should have potency on at least one of those. I disagree, but thats not what I'm meaning to talk about here).
Recently she picked up the offhand merciless gladiator sword. Strapped mongoose on it and has been raiding switching either the axe or malkazeen into the MH.
However, since she picked up the sword she has seen a significant drop in her general dps, and in her WF procs specifically. Is this probably just a string of bad luck? Or is there something in the stats or speed of the weapons that I'm missing here?
We want to work more in raids to test it, but she feels bad about bringing down the teams dps on new content this weekend. We put everything into the spreadsheet, but it doesnt seem to be working atm, at least the one we dl'd which seemed like the latest version.
The Armory
Edited onPatch 2.1.3
Depends....dual wield or 2-hander....If you are dual wield, then you need that extra hit if you are only at 150.
For a 2 hander go for the other stats IMO.
EDIT: @ Lambach, she needs a slow main-hand IMO. Whirlwind and hamstring spam to proc WF makes up a large portion of our DPS. If she was using mal main-hand, i'd expect her to lose ~45 damage per whirlwind (~5 dps worth) and an equal amount of DPS on each spamstring proc.
She should have saved up for the Gladiator main-hand and off-handed mal IMO
Edit2: just checked her armory....her AP is abysmal for fury, especially connsidering the caliber of her gear. I'd suggest dropping 20 hit rating for as much str/AP you can get.
-Putting potency on the off-hand.
-I'd suggest the choker of vile intent badge reward neck. Minor loss in hit for a HUGE gain in AP, stamina AND crit.
-Switch the helm gem to str/crit, agility isn't a great stat for warriors in general and she's not hurting for hit.
-The meta i don't particularly like...more a fan of 12agi/3% crit damage myself.
-15 str on the gloves 1% more white damage with haste, or 30 more AP affecting both yellow AND white damage...also makes WF hits bigger.
-Get rid of bladefist's breadth for either a bloodlust brooch or hourglass IMO.
For a 2 hander go for the other stats IMO.
EDIT: @ Lambach, she needs a slow main-hand IMO. Whirlwind and hamstring spam to proc WF makes up a large portion of our DPS. If she was using mal main-hand, i'd expect her to lose ~45 damage per whirlwind (~5 dps worth) and an equal amount of DPS on each spamstring proc.
She should have saved up for the Gladiator main-hand and off-handed mal IMO
Edit2: just checked her armory....her AP is abysmal for fury, especially connsidering the caliber of her gear. I'd suggest dropping 20 hit rating for as much str/AP you can get.
-Putting potency on the off-hand.
-I'd suggest the choker of vile intent badge reward neck. Minor loss in hit for a HUGE gain in AP, stamina AND crit.
-Switch the helm gem to str/crit, agility isn't a great stat for warriors in general and she's not hurting for hit.
-The meta i don't particularly like...more a fan of 12agi/3% crit damage myself.
-15 str on the gloves 1% more white damage with haste, or 30 more AP affecting both yellow AND white damage...also makes WF hits bigger.
-Get rid of bladefist's breadth for either a bloodlust brooch or hourglass IMO.
Last edited by Calgar : 07/13/07 at 11:45 AM.
How is Legacy for a 2H Arms warrior? I picked it up to replace Crystalforged and am biding my time till I can pick up a Gladiator Mace for PvP
Edited onPatch 2.1.3
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Originally Posted by Machinator
I believe the wowwiki formula to be accurate, as it is taken from a blue post and I dont remember any rage mechanic changes since that post. When I use that formula it comes out pretty close to in-game observation. Also check your math, when I use your numbers you should be getting close to 15 rage per swing with Deep Thunder hitting for 700.
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Ok, I see one of my mistakes, thank you, but the part i'm confused about is: Should it be (dam/conversion)*(7.5+(Speed*Factor))/2 or ((7.5*dam/conversion)+(Speed*factor))/2 or ((dam/(conv*7.5))+(speed*factor))/2?
Last edited by MirithD : 07/13/07 at 1:37 PM.
Ok, I see one of my mistakes, thank you, but the part i'm confused about is: Should it be (dam/conversion)*(7.5+(Speed*Factor)/2 or ((7.5*dam/conversion)+(Speed*factor))/2 or ((dam/(conv*7.5))+(speed*factor))/2?[/quote]
The idea is that the rage from damage you do is averaged with a constant based on weapon speed. So
( ((Damage/Conversion)*7.5) + (Speed*Factor) ) /2 = Rage
So with your example of Deep Thunder at 3.8 speed hitting for 700.
( ((700/274.7)*7.5) + (3.8*3.5) ) /2 = ~16.2 Rage
The idea is that the rage from damage you do is averaged with a constant based on weapon speed. So
( ((Damage/Conversion)*7.5) + (Speed*Factor) ) /2 = Rage
So with your example of Deep Thunder at 3.8 speed hitting for 700.
( ((700/274.7)*7.5) + (3.8*3.5) ) /2 = ~16.2 Rage
Yea the fight is tailored more for a 2h to WW / cleave adds but your rogues did very little damage from BF and you did most of your damage from WW and cleave which means you werent hitting the same targets.
The damage lilgokey did is great but its not a fair comparison to svags unless we can see a video. I say this because im only interested in the comparisons from fury to arms dps, you can do more dps through your aoe abilities but im guessing your dps went down greatly once it was back to single targets.
The damage lilgokey did is great but its not a fair comparison to svags unless we can see a video. I say this because im only interested in the comparisons from fury to arms dps, you can do more dps through your aoe abilities but im guessing your dps went down greatly once it was back to single targets.
Edited onPatch 2.1.3
There are too many factors to consider when trying to compare two handed AE to DW. By default two handed weapons do more damage than a one hander, but AP tends to equalize it somewhat. You also have to factor in the amount of Cleaves you can do with either weapon within a specific amount of time, whether or not you have enough rage to continually use them on every new weapon swing, Flurry, Windfury, Sweeping Strikes, etc. What happens when all of the multiple target opportunities are gone and it's back to single target?
Last edited by Graul : 07/13/07 at 5:17 PM.
Edited onPatch 2.1.3
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Originally Posted by Malarkus
Yea the fight is tailored more for a 2h to WW / cleave adds but your rogues did very little damage from BF and you did most of your damage from WW and cleave which means you werent hitting the same targets.
The damage lilgokey did is great but its not a fair comparison to svags unless we can see a video. I say this because im only interested in the comparisons from fury to arms dps, you can do more dps through your aoe abilities but im guessing your dps went down greatly once it was back to single targets. |
I wasn't trying to imply that Arms is better than Fury. I believe that Fury is superior in most aspects. The one area Arms is going to exceed Fury's capability is multi-target DPS. I suspect that if I can better improve my target selection and get a bunch of debuff bitches; I can easily sustain 3000 DPS, and burst to around 4000. Sadly, this is going to be limited to this fight alone, but it's fun nonetheless!
Also, I can't really run FRAPS because my computer is really old (I won it at a tournament in 2003). I'm lucky to sustain 20 FPS on most raid encounters. Killing my FPS probably would kill my DPS as well.
Last edited by Gokey : 07/15/07 at 1:41 AM.
Straight forward as of now, what is the best for raid dps 31/30 or a DW fury build??
Recently my guild got into a heated debate and I'm hoping you guys can help us out.
Thanks for your time.
Recently my guild got into a heated debate and I'm hoping you guys can help us out.
Thanks for your time.
Edited onPatch 2.1.3
Given your current hit/crit levels, you would be better off as 31/30. Of course you would want a Karazhan or Arena level two hander first. 31/30 is fine, and does "good" raid DPS, but requires Windfury. DW is simply better but requires a setup that generally takes longer to get. If you want to go DW, then you need to acquire the gear. In the meantime just use whatever spec and weapons will provide the most raid DPS.
There are also many people that argue grabbing Blood Frenzy will yield "higher raid DPS" *in comparision to a similarly geared Dual Wield build*, yet that requires a raid that has an abnormally high amount of physical damage dealers that are all doing abnormally high DPS. There are also other factors involved such as who is the one using Demo Shout and Thunder Clap.
*edited for clarity.
There are also many people that argue grabbing Blood Frenzy will yield "higher raid DPS" *in comparision to a similarly geared Dual Wield build*, yet that requires a raid that has an abnormally high amount of physical damage dealers that are all doing abnormally high DPS. There are also other factors involved such as who is the one using Demo Shout and Thunder Clap.
*edited for clarity.
Last edited by Graul : 07/15/07 at 2:58 AM.
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Originally Posted by Graul
There are also many people that argue grabbing Blood Frenzy will yield "higher raid DPS", yet that requires a raid that has an abnormally high amount of physical damage dealers that are all doing abnormally high DPS.
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Let's make up a fake raid against a fake boss with only 5 melee DPSers in it. The fight doesn't matter, only the damage output. I've made up some fake final DPS standings to illustrate my point. The below raid comp would be considered bringing a "small" amount of melee DPS. Most raids run with 1 enhancement shaman, 2-3 rogues, 2-3 warriors (who may or may not be DPSing), 1-2 hunters, a tank on the target, and a Feral Druid. That's 11 people that will be benefiting from Blood Frenzy the entire time in a "normal" raid comp. For the sake of the arguement, I'll only consider 5.
Damage Done as 31/30
Warrior: 300,000
Rogue1: 295,000
Rogue2: 280,000
Hunter1: 250,000 (including pet)
Hunter2: 250,000 (including pet)
Total melee damage done: 1,375,000
Now, If that warrior respecs, he's going to lose 10% attack speed, which in turn is going to cut down on his white damage by about 10%. Let's throw out a random number here and say that 50% of that warrior's DPS is white damage, or 150,000. He's going to lose 15,000 dmg on the above fight by re-speccing to 33/28. In turn, he's going to gain an additional 4% damage on all his attacks, and another 4% on all of his yellow attacks that make up the other 50% of his total damage done.
White Damage: 150,000 - 15,000 + 6000 = 141,000
Yellow Damage: 150,000 + 6000 = 156,000
Damage Done on same fight under same circumstances, but as 33/28
Warrior: 297,000
Rogue1: 306,800 (295k * .04)
Rogue2: 291,200
Hunter1: 260,000
Hunter2: 260,000
Total melee damage done: 1,415,000
Theoretical Arms DPS Warrior loses 3,000 damage. Theoretical raid gains 40,000. Mind explaining to me why Blood Frenzy requires "an abnormally high amount of physical damage dealers" to see any benefits?
Looking at these numbers, you'd only need 1 more physical DPS to see an increase in raid DPS by dropping points in Flurry and putting them in Blood Frenzy.
Edited onPatch 2.1.3
I was comparing DW to 33/28, not 33/28 to 31/30. That supposed 40k damage that is "gained" from Blood Frenzy would have been "gained" most likely by a solitary DW Warrior just the same without the requirement of every other physical damage dealer being alive and pumping out continual damage as well as making sure dots are up 100% of the time. I don't doubt that a BF build would outperform 31/30 when all of the requirements are met. I do not however believe it is "better" than a DW build until a) you are threat capped badly and b) your raids combined physical damage dealers will gain significantly more damage through the debuff than what you lost.
And if 33/28 is so much better than 31/30 for raid DPS, why are you 31/30 right now? Is that just your prefered PvP spec?
And if 33/28 is so much better than 31/30 for raid DPS, why are you 31/30 right now? Is that just your prefered PvP spec?
Last edited by Graul : 07/15/07 at 3:12 AM.
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Originally Posted by Graul
33/28 is so much better than 31/30 for raid DPS, why are you 31/30 right now? Is that just your prefered PvP spec?
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Edited onPatch 2.1.3
I don't know of any reason why Imp Slam wouldn't be in a two handed spec. Unless someone really hates using it or would simply rather have Imp Intercept for PvP purposes. But then since this is about raiding, I would guess they take more than one Warrior to DPS with on raids. I really don't understand the point of trying to champion one spec, while posting WWS as another (without the spec in question). It's contradictory.
Last edited by Graul : 07/15/07 at 6:52 AM.
Edited onPatch 2.1.3
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Originally Posted by Randor
Could be that he has an imp Slam build and some other warrior in his guild has the 33-28 spec.
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Originally Posted by Graul
And if 33/28 is so much better than 31/30 for raid DPS, why are you 31/30 right now? Is that just your preferred PvP spec?
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We raid with a large amount of warriors, so we've always had someone with Blood Frenzy in our raids. I've never bothered to pick it up because of that. Also, because I play 2 different characters for our raids, I cannot be relied upon to have it. Instead, I have Imp Demo Shout. A fair compromise, in my opinion.
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Originally Posted by Graul
I really don't understand the point of trying to champion one spec, while posting WWS as another (without the spec in question). It's contradictory.
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Just because I posted a WWS of me chain-cleaving 4 adds away from everyone else does not discredit the fact that it's better. Would I have done more "raid damage" with Blood Frenzy on my current target and the rogues assisting me? Absolutely.
My post was simply directed at having Blood Frenzy versus NOT having Blood Frenzy. Obviously, I have the luxury of not needing to spec it. Does that mean I should spec it to further prove my point? No. What's the point of having 2 Blood Frenzy's in the raid?
Furthermore, Read what you said:
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Originally Posted by Graul
Given your current hit/crit levels, you would be better off as 31/30. 31/30 is fine, and does "good" raid DPS, but requires Windfury. ... In the meantime just use whatever spec and weapons will provide the most raid DPS. There are also many people that argue grabbing Blood Frenzy will yield "higher raid DPS", yet that requires a raid that has an abnormally high amount of physical damage dealers that are all doing abnormally high DPS.
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Originally Posted by Graul
That supposed 40k damage that is "gained" from Blood Frenzy would have been "gained" most likely by a solitary DW Warrior just the same without the requirement of every other physical damage dealer being alive and pumping out continual damage as well as making sure dots are up 100% of the time.
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Things to keep in mind:
- Arms can also sustain very high amounts of single target DPS, close to that of Fury.
- The above estimation of gain was assumed using only 5 physical DPS. Most raids bring 10. A "normal" raid will gain ~80,000 dmg from Blood Frenzy.
Last edited by Gokey : 07/15/07 at 2:39 PM.
Edited onPatch 2.1.3
| You said Blood Frenzy was bad |
| It doesn't make any sense that you would tell him he's better off as one spec, but then turn around and tell him to spec something else. Obviously, with his lack of Fury gear, he's going to provide most to his raids as 33/28. Apparently, I'm not the only one contradicting myself. |
| I presented information to back up my claim, where's yours? |
Last edited by Graul : 07/15/07 at 5:22 PM.
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Originally Posted by Graul
You presented napkin math that doesn't really support in game numbers. You also take many assumptions for granted. BF was also not up at all on the Shade fight you submitted. Since it's "clearly superior" because your two minute math "proved it", I guess that means you will be respeccing each time you do not have another Warrior there to apply it now?
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You're right though, it is napkin math. But, I could have easily plugged REAL numbers in it. If you can't see that it makes perfect sense even with "fake" numbers, then I guess I can't persuade you further.
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Originally Posted by Graul
I don't know of any reason why Imp Slam wouldn't be in a two handed spec.
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Originally Posted by Obould
Well, SwordSpec so when MS/WW on cooldown Hamstring and ragedump with HeroicStrike!!
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Swing/Slam, MS, Swing/Slam, WW, Swing/Slam, MS, Swing/Slam, HS
There is no rotation that can do more damage than that as a 2H warrior, even if your MS is being used every 8s instead of 6. The closer you can bring your weapon to 2.5s swing with haste, the better it gets. This rotation also allows you a LOT of time to get pummels off on fights where it's required.
If you can pull that rotation off perfectly with a 1400 [actual] average white hit damage with a base 3.7s weapon (14s cycle), flurried with windfury (14 attacks that do weapon damage), you're doing at least 1260 single target dps including glancing and dodges. That doesn't include impale, deep wounds, heroic strike, hamstring damage or the bonus damage from MS and slam. If Svag can crit for 3k with his main hand, any 2H in his gear should easily have 1400 average white hit damage.
Svag's not critting for 3k with his MH weapon as fury spec, Unless were talking about a specific boss encounter like akama which increases physical dps (Pointless to include).
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Originally Posted by Obould
Well, SwordSpec so when MS/WW on cooldown Hamstring and ragedump with HeroicStrike!!
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Originally Posted by Randor
Are you using Heroic strike in raids? Any problems with agro or rage generation? I much prefer to use imp Slam over HS in raid. Seems like more bang for the buck as well less threat, especially after a nice crit string.
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Anyway, i am totally new to 2H (used to be fury but picked up the Cytalyst yesterday) so i am about to try that out, i will focus on MS/WW , if those two skills on CD, Hamstring + HS as rage dump and report what i find out.
Heroic Strike is a terrible rage dump for an MS Warrior unless you've somehow got another source of rage and you can't spend it fast enough.
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Originally Posted by Hoonboof
Heroic Strike is a terrible rage dump for an MS Warrior unless you've somehow got another source of rage and you can't spend it fast enough.
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Originally Posted by Grayson Carlyle
Swing/Slam, MS, Swing/Slam, WW, Swing/Slam, MS, Swing/Slam, HS
There is no rotation that can do more damage than that as a 2H warrior, even if your MS is being used every 8s instead of 6. |
Even after downloading quartz swing timer, perfecting this rotation is next to impossible for me. Quartz is not 100% accurate and even 1 messed up slam can cost you a lot of dps. Also keep in mind that you have to be off world cooldown, at the moment where the swing happens, so you can cast your slam immediately, which often is not the case.
That being said, I did sustain 1100-1200 dps, depending on boss last week (with trying to fiddle in slams). If you add another 40 dps from every other 1k dps physical damage dealer, 33-28 with the right gear is well worth the raidspot at the moment.
With sword spec and WF using your "free" world cooldowns on harmstings and HS as rage dump simply excludes any lost dps from messed up slams, and every 4th harmsting resulting in an extra attack should be pretty decent dps.
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Originally Posted by Hoonboof
Heroic Strike is a terrible rage dump for an MS Warrior unless you've somehow got another source of rage and you can't spend it fast enough.
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Originally Posted by Obould
TBH i am not a full time dps warrior, we rotate quite often in our guild, we are 4 warriors and its required from everyone to fullfill every aspect of the game (thus also having fun seeing big numbers).
Anyway, i am totally new to 2H (used to be fury but picked up the Cytalyst yesterday) so i am about to try that out, i will focus on MS/WW , if those two skills on CD, Hamstring + HS as rage dump and report what i find out. |
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Originally Posted by Repeek
Obould, check out this spec ( World of Warcraft Europe -> Talents ) for a 33/28 build. I think you'll gain more dps from Imp Slam vs. 2/3 Imp Cleave as well as 2/2 Weapon Mastery. I just recently switched from 17/44 to 31/30 after crafting Stormherald but will probably use that 33/28 build depending on our raid makeup this week.
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I'd suggest something like this. Adding Anger Management to compensate for only 3 points in Unbridled Wrath but gaining a little more versatility with a few points in Imp Demo.
Piercing Howl is optional here, and the point could go into filling Commanding Presence or getting some more out of Flurry.
Good call on the Imp HS, guess I was still in the 17/44 mindset. However I think the points in Imp Charge is wasted because I have yet to ever use charge on a PvE encounter (without risking getting 1 shotted).
I'm wondering if a macro can be made that allows you to mash the Slam button, but it will not activate until an auto attack lands before it. There are similar macros for Hunters with Steady Shot. It's more "efficient" if you can land the Slam right after the white hit, not 0.5 - 1 second later but it's nearly impossible to ALWAYS land every Slam perfectly, especially on fights where you have to move around a lot. And Slam is the best damage for the rage because it's not normalized. Heroic Strike is really awful in comparison for a two hander.
Edited onPatch 2.1.3
That would be interesting indeed, on the other hand who wants to have hunter easy mode? =)
On a more serious note, what really would improve the situation a lot, is a really accurate swing timer. The best I have found so far is quartz, but as stated above it's not 100% relieable as well.
The best results I get by ignoring the swing timer completely and watching the animations of my alter ego. If i press slam at the very same moment my character strikes out, the slam more or less hits a split second after the white attack. Dunno if this is lag or whatever, but it worked for me. Unfortunately this does not work too well if you stand bunched up with the other melee on the back of a boss.
On a more serious note, what really would improve the situation a lot, is a really accurate swing timer. The best I have found so far is quartz, but as stated above it's not 100% relieable as well.
The best results I get by ignoring the swing timer completely and watching the animations of my alter ego. If i press slam at the very same moment my character strikes out, the slam more or less hits a split second after the white attack. Dunno if this is lag or whatever, but it worked for me. Unfortunately this does not work too well if you stand bunched up with the other melee on the back of a boss.
Last edited by D4vE : 07/17/07 at 8:48 AM.
I just posted this on the official warriors forums. I guess I've been up for entirely too long but I have no idea why the f I didn't come here. Anyways, I took my alt/new main into her first 25 man raid today and was looking to gain some knowledge about the different rotations used. This character is geared/spec'd for PvP so I know I'm not going to be a chart topping powerhouse, but I'd like to make sure I'm doing everything I can to help maximize myself to the raid.
I know on my old main, a hunter, shot rotations were key to having good dps. Seeing a hunter just mash his shots and then comparing his dps to a hunter with a tight rotation was like night and day. Naturally I figure it's there's a most efficient way to mash my keys on this character as well.
One friend suggested a MS, auto attack, slam, slam rotation which I was getting the hang of. Another suggested that MS/WW were on priority. Also, I had windfury so the option of working in hamstring into the rotation came up as well.
I'm not really in a position to be taking a lot of DPS gear (fury or arms biased) as I've mainly been trying to pick up tanking gear. I have some sick love for tanking, but I have to be able to gear up some more which means I'll be stuck doing DPS for a while.
In PvP I just bind the right hand side of my keyboard to a MS/hamstring macro and the left hand side to a WW/hamstring macro and beat on the keyboard it does pretty well. I figure there's a cleaner way to DPS in raid settings though.
Here's an armory link The Armory
I know on my old main, a hunter, shot rotations were key to having good dps. Seeing a hunter just mash his shots and then comparing his dps to a hunter with a tight rotation was like night and day. Naturally I figure it's there's a most efficient way to mash my keys on this character as well.
One friend suggested a MS, auto attack, slam, slam rotation which I was getting the hang of. Another suggested that MS/WW were on priority. Also, I had windfury so the option of working in hamstring into the rotation came up as well.
I'm not really in a position to be taking a lot of DPS gear (fury or arms biased) as I've mainly been trying to pick up tanking gear. I have some sick love for tanking, but I have to be able to gear up some more which means I'll be stuck doing DPS for a while.
In PvP I just bind the right hand side of my keyboard to a MS/hamstring macro and the left hand side to a WW/hamstring macro and beat on the keyboard it does pretty well. I figure there's a cleaner way to DPS in raid settings though.
Here's an armory link The Armory
Fury Warriors: Does DnT Have Any? - Death & Taxes - Forum
Has some interesting comments (amid some dribble) about the spec and dps rotations. And while it takes some time, you can find a good number of valuable tips in this thread.
One suggestion is to get rid of the Alliance trinket, not many times will it be needed for a raid. Secondly, you're specced for PvP so you could better allocate your talents for a raid environment.
Has some interesting comments (amid some dribble) about the spec and dps rotations. And while it takes some time, you can find a good number of valuable tips in this thread.
One suggestion is to get rid of the Alliance trinket, not many times will it be needed for a raid. Secondly, you're specced for PvP so you could better allocate your talents for a raid environment.
Edited onPatch 2.1.3
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Originally Posted by Gokey
That statement is completely false, and I'll show you why:
Damage Done on same fight under same circumstances, but as 33/28 Warrior: 297,000 Rogue1: 306,800 (295k * .04) Rogue2: 291,200 Hunter1: 260,000 Hunter2: 260,000 Total melee damage done: 1,415,000 Theoretical Arms DPS Warrior loses 3,000 damage. Theoretical raid gains 40,000. Mind explaining to me why Blood Frenzy requires "an abnormally high amount of physical damage dealers" to see any benefits? Looking at these numbers, you'd only need 1 more physical DPS to see an increase in raid DPS by dropping points in Flurry and putting them in Blood Frenzy. |
However, he's worried his rage generation will go down a lot because of having 2 points less in "Flurry".
It is really that bad, or is he just worried for no reason? The damage increase for all the melee in the raid should more than make up for the small ~60 dps that he loses for himself.
I can't really theorycraft it, since the Warrior DPS spreadsheet seems to be focused on Dual wielding.
Last edited by Zurgat : 07/17/07 at 11:07 AM.
Edited onPatch 2.1.3
@Randor, Yeah, it looks almost like none of the top guilds take a dedicated "Fury dual wield" warrior, they all take 2H warriors for their DPS. Any loss in personal DPS will be made up by Frenzy across the raid. It also solves the problem of Fury's insane agro generation because of using HS as a rage dump by spreading that damage across 5-8 other people.
Not to mention 33/28 is significantly more PvP viable then 17/44.
Edit: @Zurgat, 2 points in flurry = 10% less white damage...which makes up ~50% of our damage...so 5% less damage over all. That is made up by doing 4% more damage from Frenzy to almost balance out perfectly. If there is ever a single other physical DPS in the raid, you will see a DPS improvement from 31/30 to 33/28.
True, his rage generation will be hit, but we are talking something like 6% less rage generation here. That about the difference from going to a T2 to a T3 BS weapon rage generation wise. With windfury rage generation usually isn't a problem anyways.
Not to mention 33/28 is significantly more PvP viable then 17/44.
Edit: @Zurgat, 2 points in flurry = 10% less white damage...which makes up ~50% of our damage...so 5% less damage over all. That is made up by doing 4% more damage from Frenzy to almost balance out perfectly. If there is ever a single other physical DPS in the raid, you will see a DPS improvement from 31/30 to 33/28.
True, his rage generation will be hit, but we are talking something like 6% less rage generation here. That about the difference from going to a T2 to a T3 BS weapon rage generation wise. With windfury rage generation usually isn't a problem anyways.
Last edited by Calgar : 07/17/07 at 11:24 AM.
Edited onPatch 2.1.3
Given your current hit/crit levels, you would be better off as 31/30. Of course you would want a Karazhan or Arena level two hander first. 31/30 is fine, and does "good" raid DPS, but requires Windfury. DW is simply better but requires a setup that generally takes longer to get. If you want to go DW, then you need to acquire the gear. In the meantime just use whatever spec and weapons will provide the most raid DPS.
There are also many people that argue grabbing Blood Frenzy will yield "higher raid DPS" *in comparision to a similarly geared Dual Wield build*, yet that requires a raid that has an abnormally high amount of physical damage dealers that are all doing abnormally high DPS. There are also other factors involved such as who is the one using Demo Shout and Thunder Clap.
*edited for clarity.
There are also many people that argue grabbing Blood Frenzy will yield "higher raid DPS" *in comparision to a similarly geared Dual Wield build*, yet that requires a raid that has an abnormally high amount of physical damage dealers that are all doing abnormally high DPS. There are also other factors involved such as who is the one using Demo Shout and Thunder Clap.
*edited for clarity.
Last edited by Graul : 07/15/07 at 2:58 AM.
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Originally Posted by Graul
There are also many people that argue grabbing Blood Frenzy will yield "higher raid DPS", yet that requires a raid that has an abnormally high amount of physical damage dealers that are all doing abnormally high DPS.
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Let's make up a fake raid against a fake boss with only 5 melee DPSers in it. The fight doesn't matter, only the damage output. I've made up some fake final DPS standings to illustrate my point. The below raid comp would be considered bringing a "small" amount of melee DPS. Most raids run with 1 enhancement shaman, 2-3 rogues, 2-3 warriors (who may or may not be DPSing), 1-2 hunters, a tank on the target, and a Feral Druid. That's 11 people that will be benefiting from Blood Frenzy the entire time in a "normal" raid comp. For the sake of the arguement, I'll only consider 5.
Damage Done as 31/30
Warrior: 300,000
Rogue1: 295,000
Rogue2: 280,000
Hunter1: 250,000 (including pet)
Hunter2: 250,000 (including pet)
Total melee damage done: 1,375,000
Now, If that warrior respecs, he's going to lose 10% attack speed, which in turn is going to cut down on his white damage by about 10%. Let's throw out a random number here and say that 50% of that warrior's DPS is white damage, or 150,000. He's going to lose 15,000 dmg on the above fight by re-speccing to 33/28. In turn, he's going to gain an additional 4% damage on all his attacks, and another 4% on all of his yellow attacks that make up the other 50% of his total damage done.
White Damage: 150,000 - 15,000 + 6000 = 141,000
Yellow Damage: 150,000 + 6000 = 156,000
Damage Done on same fight under same circumstances, but as 33/28
Warrior: 297,000
Rogue1: 306,800 (295k * .04)
Rogue2: 291,200
Hunter1: 260,000
Hunter2: 260,000
Total melee damage done: 1,415,000
Theoretical Arms DPS Warrior loses 3,000 damage. Theoretical raid gains 40,000. Mind explaining to me why Blood Frenzy requires "an abnormally high amount of physical damage dealers" to see any benefits?
Looking at these numbers, you'd only need 1 more physical DPS to see an increase in raid DPS by dropping points in Flurry and putting them in Blood Frenzy.
Edited onPatch 2.1.3
I was comparing DW to 33/28, not 33/28 to 31/30. That supposed 40k damage that is "gained" from Blood Frenzy would have been "gained" most likely by a solitary DW Warrior just the same without the requirement of every other physical damage dealer being alive and pumping out continual damage as well as making sure dots are up 100% of the time. I don't doubt that a BF build would outperform 31/30 when all of the requirements are met. I do not however believe it is "better" than a DW build until a) you are threat capped badly and b) your raids combined physical damage dealers will gain significantly more damage through the debuff than what you lost.
And if 33/28 is so much better than 31/30 for raid DPS, why are you 31/30 right now? Is that just your prefered PvP spec?
And if 33/28 is so much better than 31/30 for raid DPS, why are you 31/30 right now? Is that just your prefered PvP spec?
Last edited by Graul : 07/15/07 at 3:12 AM.
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Originally Posted by Graul
33/28 is so much better than 31/30 for raid DPS, why are you 31/30 right now? Is that just your prefered PvP spec?
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Edited onPatch 2.1.3
I don't know of any reason why Imp Slam wouldn't be in a two handed spec. Unless someone really hates using it or would simply rather have Imp Intercept for PvP purposes. But then since this is about raiding, I would guess they take more than one Warrior to DPS with on raids. I really don't understand the point of trying to champion one spec, while posting WWS as another (without the spec in question). It's contradictory.
Last edited by Graul : 07/15/07 at 6:52 AM.
Edited onPatch 2.1.3
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Originally Posted by Randor
Could be that he has an imp Slam build and some other warrior in his guild has the 33-28 spec.
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Originally Posted by Graul
And if 33/28 is so much better than 31/30 for raid DPS, why are you 31/30 right now? Is that just your preferred PvP spec?
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We raid with a large amount of warriors, so we've always had someone with Blood Frenzy in our raids. I've never bothered to pick it up because of that. Also, because I play 2 different characters for our raids, I cannot be relied upon to have it. Instead, I have Imp Demo Shout. A fair compromise, in my opinion.
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Originally Posted by Graul
I really don't understand the point of trying to champion one spec, while posting WWS as another (without the spec in question). It's contradictory.
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Just because I posted a WWS of me chain-cleaving 4 adds away from everyone else does not discredit the fact that it's better. Would I have done more "raid damage" with Blood Frenzy on my current target and the rogues assisting me? Absolutely.
My post was simply directed at having Blood Frenzy versus NOT having Blood Frenzy. Obviously, I have the luxury of not needing to spec it. Does that mean I should spec it to further prove my point? No. What's the point of having 2 Blood Frenzy's in the raid?
Furthermore, Read what you said:
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Originally Posted by Graul
Given your current hit/crit levels, you would be better off as 31/30. 31/30 is fine, and does "good" raid DPS, but requires Windfury. ... In the meantime just use whatever spec and weapons will provide the most raid DPS. There are also many people that argue grabbing Blood Frenzy will yield "higher raid DPS", yet that requires a raid that has an abnormally high amount of physical damage dealers that are all doing abnormally high DPS.
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Originally Posted by Graul
That supposed 40k damage that is "gained" from Blood Frenzy would have been "gained" most likely by a solitary DW Warrior just the same without the requirement of every other physical damage dealer being alive and pumping out continual damage as well as making sure dots are up 100% of the time.
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Things to keep in mind:
- Arms can also sustain very high amounts of single target DPS, close to that of Fury.
- The above estimation of gain was assumed using only 5 physical DPS. Most raids bring 10. A "normal" raid will gain ~80,000 dmg from Blood Frenzy.
Last edited by Gokey : 07/15/07 at 2:39 PM.
Edited onPatch 2.1.3
| You said Blood Frenzy was bad |
| It doesn't make any sense that you would tell him he's better off as one spec, but then turn around and tell him to spec something else. Obviously, with his lack of Fury gear, he's going to provide most to his raids as 33/28. Apparently, I'm not the only one contradicting myself. |
| I presented information to back up my claim, where's yours? |
Last edited by Graul : 07/15/07 at 5:22 PM.
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Originally Posted by Graul
You presented napkin math that doesn't really support in game numbers. You also take many assumptions for granted. BF was also not up at all on the Shade fight you submitted. Since it's "clearly superior" because your two minute math "proved it", I guess that means you will be respeccing each time you do not have another Warrior there to apply it now?
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You're right though, it is napkin math. But, I could have easily plugged REAL numbers in it. If you can't see that it makes perfect sense even with "fake" numbers, then I guess I can't persuade you further.
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Originally Posted by Graul
I don't know of any reason why Imp Slam wouldn't be in a two handed spec.
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Originally Posted by Obould
Well, SwordSpec so when MS/WW on cooldown Hamstring and ragedump with HeroicStrike!!
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Swing/Slam, MS, Swing/Slam, WW, Swing/Slam, MS, Swing/Slam, HS
There is no rotation that can do more damage than that as a 2H warrior, even if your MS is being used every 8s instead of 6. The closer you can bring your weapon to 2.5s swing with haste, the better it gets. This rotation also allows you a LOT of time to get pummels off on fights where it's required.
If you can pull that rotation off perfectly with a 1400 [actual] average white hit damage with a base 3.7s weapon (14s cycle), flurried with windfury (14 attacks that do weapon damage), you're doing at least 1260 single target dps including glancing and dodges. That doesn't include impale, deep wounds, heroic strike, hamstring damage or the bonus damage from MS and slam. If Svag can crit for 3k with his main hand, any 2H in his gear should easily have 1400 average white hit damage.
Svag's not critting for 3k with his MH weapon as fury spec, Unless were talking about a specific boss encounter like akama which increases physical dps (Pointless to include).
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Originally Posted by Obould
Well, SwordSpec so when MS/WW on cooldown Hamstring and ragedump with HeroicStrike!!
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Originally Posted by Randor
Are you using Heroic strike in raids? Any problems with agro or rage generation? I much prefer to use imp Slam over HS in raid. Seems like more bang for the buck as well less threat, especially after a nice crit string.
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Anyway, i am totally new to 2H (used to be fury but picked up the Cytalyst yesterday) so i am about to try that out, i will focus on MS/WW , if those two skills on CD, Hamstring + HS as rage dump and report what i find out.
Heroic Strike is a terrible rage dump for an MS Warrior unless you've somehow got another source of rage and you can't spend it fast enough.
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Originally Posted by Hoonboof
Heroic Strike is a terrible rage dump for an MS Warrior unless you've somehow got another source of rage and you can't spend it fast enough.
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Originally Posted by Grayson Carlyle
Swing/Slam, MS, Swing/Slam, WW, Swing/Slam, MS, Swing/Slam, HS
There is no rotation that can do more damage than that as a 2H warrior, even if your MS is being used every 8s instead of 6. |
Even after downloading quartz swing timer, perfecting this rotation is next to impossible for me. Quartz is not 100% accurate and even 1 messed up slam can cost you a lot of dps. Also keep in mind that you have to be off world cooldown, at the moment where the swing happens, so you can cast your slam immediately, which often is not the case.
That being said, I did sustain 1100-1200 dps, depending on boss last week (with trying to fiddle in slams). If you add another 40 dps from every other 1k dps physical damage dealer, 33-28 with the right gear is well worth the raidspot at the moment.
With sword spec and WF using your "free" world cooldowns on harmstings and HS as rage dump simply excludes any lost dps from messed up slams, and every 4th harmsting resulting in an extra attack should be pretty decent dps.
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Originally Posted by Hoonboof
Heroic Strike is a terrible rage dump for an MS Warrior unless you've somehow got another source of rage and you can't spend it fast enough.
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Originally Posted by Obould
TBH i am not a full time dps warrior, we rotate quite often in our guild, we are 4 warriors and its required from everyone to fullfill every aspect of the game (thus also having fun seeing big numbers).
Anyway, i am totally new to 2H (used to be fury but picked up the Cytalyst yesterday) so i am about to try that out, i will focus on MS/WW , if those two skills on CD, Hamstring + HS as rage dump and report what i find out. |
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Originally Posted by Repeek
Obould, check out this spec ( World of Warcraft Europe -> Talents ) for a 33/28 build. I think you'll gain more dps from Imp Slam vs. 2/3 Imp Cleave as well as 2/2 Weapon Mastery. I just recently switched from 17/44 to 31/30 after crafting Stormherald but will probably use that 33/28 build depending on our raid makeup this week.
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I'd suggest something like this. Adding Anger Management to compensate for only 3 points in Unbridled Wrath but gaining a little more versatility with a few points in Imp Demo.
Piercing Howl is optional here, and the point could go into filling Commanding Presence or getting some more out of Flurry.
Good call on the Imp HS, guess I was still in the 17/44 mindset. However I think the points in Imp Charge is wasted because I have yet to ever use charge on a PvE encounter (without risking getting 1 shotted).
I'm wondering if a macro can be made that allows you to mash the Slam button, but it will not activate until an auto attack lands before it. There are similar macros for Hunters with Steady Shot. It's more "efficient" if you can land the Slam right after the white hit, not 0.5 - 1 second later but it's nearly impossible to ALWAYS land every Slam perfectly, especially on fights where you have to move around a lot. And Slam is the best damage for the rage because it's not normalized. Heroic Strike is really awful in comparison for a two hander.
Edited onPatch 2.1.3
That would be interesting indeed, on the other hand who wants to have hunter easy mode? =)
On a more serious note, what really would improve the situation a lot, is a really accurate swing timer. The best I have found so far is quartz, but as stated above it's not 100% relieable as well.
The best results I get by ignoring the swing timer completely and watching the animations of my alter ego. If i press slam at the very same moment my character strikes out, the slam more or less hits a split second after the white attack. Dunno if this is lag or whatever, but it worked for me. Unfortunately this does not work too well if you stand bunched up with the other melee on the back of a boss.
On a more serious note, what really would improve the situation a lot, is a really accurate swing timer. The best I have found so far is quartz, but as stated above it's not 100% relieable as well.
The best results I get by ignoring the swing timer completely and watching the animations of my alter ego. If i press slam at the very same moment my character strikes out, the slam more or less hits a split second after the white attack. Dunno if this is lag or whatever, but it worked for me. Unfortunately this does not work too well if you stand bunched up with the other melee on the back of a boss.
Last edited by D4vE : 07/17/07 at 8:48 AM.
I just posted this on the official warriors forums. I guess I've been up for entirely too long but I have no idea why the f I didn't come here. Anyways, I took my alt/new main into her first 25 man raid today and was looking to gain some knowledge about the different rotations used. This character is geared/spec'd for PvP so I know I'm not going to be a chart topping powerhouse, but I'd like to make sure I'm doing everything I can to help maximize myself to the raid.
I know on my old main, a hunter, shot rotations were key to having good dps. Seeing a hunter just mash his shots and then comparing his dps to a hunter with a tight rotation was like night and day. Naturally I figure it's there's a most efficient way to mash my keys on this character as well.
One friend suggested a MS, auto attack, slam, slam rotation which I was getting the hang of. Another suggested that MS/WW were on priority. Also, I had windfury so the option of working in hamstring into the rotation came up as well.
I'm not really in a position to be taking a lot of DPS gear (fury or arms biased) as I've mainly been trying to pick up tanking gear. I have some sick love for tanking, but I have to be able to gear up some more which means I'll be stuck doing DPS for a while.
In PvP I just bind the right hand side of my keyboard to a MS/hamstring macro and the left hand side to a WW/hamstring macro and beat on the keyboard it does pretty well. I figure there's a cleaner way to DPS in raid settings though.
Here's an armory link The Armory
I know on my old main, a hunter, shot rotations were key to having good dps. Seeing a hunter just mash his shots and then comparing his dps to a hunter with a tight rotation was like night and day. Naturally I figure it's there's a most efficient way to mash my keys on this character as well.
One friend suggested a MS, auto attack, slam, slam rotation which I was getting the hang of. Another suggested that MS/WW were on priority. Also, I had windfury so the option of working in hamstring into the rotation came up as well.
I'm not really in a position to be taking a lot of DPS gear (fury or arms biased) as I've mainly been trying to pick up tanking gear. I have some sick love for tanking, but I have to be able to gear up some more which means I'll be stuck doing DPS for a while.
In PvP I just bind the right hand side of my keyboard to a MS/hamstring macro and the left hand side to a WW/hamstring macro and beat on the keyboard it does pretty well. I figure there's a cleaner way to DPS in raid settings though.
Here's an armory link The Armory
Fury Warriors: Does DnT Have Any? - Death & Taxes - Forum
Has some interesting comments (amid some dribble) about the spec and dps rotations. And while it takes some time, you can find a good number of valuable tips in this thread.
One suggestion is to get rid of the Alliance trinket, not many times will it be needed for a raid. Secondly, you're specced for PvP so you could better allocate your talents for a raid environment.
Has some interesting comments (amid some dribble) about the spec and dps rotations. And while it takes some time, you can find a good number of valuable tips in this thread.
One suggestion is to get rid of the Alliance trinket, not many times will it be needed for a raid. Secondly, you're specced for PvP so you could better allocate your talents for a raid environment.
Edited onPatch 2.1.3
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Originally Posted by Gokey
That statement is completely false, and I'll show you why:
Damage Done on same fight under same circumstances, but as 33/28 Warrior: 297,000 Rogue1: 306,800 (295k * .04) Rogue2: 291,200 Hunter1: 260,000 Hunter2: 260,000 Total melee damage done: 1,415,000 Theoretical Arms DPS Warrior loses 3,000 damage. Theoretical raid gains 40,000. Mind explaining to me why Blood Frenzy requires "an abnormally high amount of physical damage dealers" to see any benefits? Looking at these numbers, you'd only need 1 more physical DPS to see an increase in raid DPS by dropping points in Flurry and putting them in Blood Frenzy. |
However, he's worried his rage generation will go down a lot because of having 2 points less in "Flurry".
It is really that bad, or is he just worried for no reason? The damage increase for all the melee in the raid should more than make up for the small ~60 dps that he loses for himself.
I can't really theorycraft it, since the Warrior DPS spreadsheet seems to be focused on Dual wielding.
Last edited by Zurgat : 07/17/07 at 11:07 AM.
Edited onPatch 2.1.3
@Randor, Yeah, it looks almost like none of the top guilds take a dedicated "Fury dual wield" warrior, they all take 2H warriors for their DPS. Any loss in personal DPS will be made up by Frenzy across the raid. It also solves the problem of Fury's insane agro generation because of using HS as a rage dump by spreading that damage across 5-8 other people.
Not to mention 33/28 is significantly more PvP viable then 17/44.
Edit: @Zurgat, 2 points in flurry = 10% less white damage...which makes up ~50% of our damage...so 5% less damage over all. That is made up by doing 4% more damage from Frenzy to almost balance out perfectly. If there is ever a single other physical DPS in the raid, you will see a DPS improvement from 31/30 to 33/28.
True, his rage generation will be hit, but we are talking something like 6% less rage generation here. That about the difference from going to a T2 to a T3 BS weapon rage generation wise. With windfury rage generation usually isn't a problem anyways.
Not to mention 33/28 is significantly more PvP viable then 17/44.
Edit: @Zurgat, 2 points in flurry = 10% less white damage...which makes up ~50% of our damage...so 5% less damage over all. That is made up by doing 4% more damage from Frenzy to almost balance out perfectly. If there is ever a single other physical DPS in the raid, you will see a DPS improvement from 31/30 to 33/28.
True, his rage generation will be hit, but we are talking something like 6% less rage generation here. That about the difference from going to a T2 to a T3 BS weapon rage generation wise. With windfury rage generation usually isn't a problem anyways.
Last edited by Calgar : 07/17/07 at 11:24 AM.
Edited onPatch 2.1.3
|
Originally Posted by Calgar
@Randor, Yeah, it looks almost like none of the top guilds take a dedicated "Fury dual wield" warrior, they all take 2H warriors for their DPS. Any loss in personal DPS will be made up by Frenzy across the raid. It also solves the problem of Fury's insane agro generation because of using HS as a rage dump by spreading that damage across 5-8 other people.
|
This is the misinformation that spreads like wildfire, so everyone just assumes that since "DnT" doesn't take a Fury Warrior that BF is superior. Schmity even posted in the official forums that "I tried out Fury for one night and it's garbage". An opinion like that is not evidence of anything.
Both Curse and Aurora use Fury Warriors, and I'd consider both of them "top guilds". Look at how many guilds don't bring a single Enhancement Shaman...ever.
BF is no doubt good, but to just outright claim it's "always" superior is baseless. It depends mostly on how much physical damage your raids deal as well as how much of a problem you have with threat.
Last edited by Graul : 07/17/07 at 5:11 PM.
You'd think that after many pages without a clear conclusion, people could agree that it's mostly a preference and setup thing. Aside from Mortal Strike for PvP, there is no clear benefit one has over the other when you look at raid performance. Personally I prefer 33/28 because it's far less "bleeding edge" for threat generation, and also more straightforward to gear. I've always loved DW Fury, but shortly before the new arena season started I specced 33/28 mostly to farm myself some new 1-handers to raid with. The irony! Long story short, it's grown on me and I'll be sticking to it for a while to come.
By the way, about Slam rotation... when I have excess rage and MS/WW on cooldown, I tend to slamspam a bit until a cooldown gets ready or my rage below about 50. I keep hearing back to back slams are bad, but I generally hit for about as much as I do DPS with Slam alone, noncrit, every second. Considering crits, and WF/Sword procs, that doesn't strike me as bad in any way. Rage generation may suffer somewhat if I get unlucky afterwards, but misses are out of the picture, dodge lets me Overpower, and otherwise I'll at least get enough to Slam again. MS will generally be on cooldown then, anyway. Careless slam spam bad, cautious slam spam good?
By the way, about Slam rotation... when I have excess rage and MS/WW on cooldown, I tend to slamspam a bit until a cooldown gets ready or my rage below about 50. I keep hearing back to back slams are bad, but I generally hit for about as much as I do DPS with Slam alone, noncrit, every second. Considering crits, and WF/Sword procs, that doesn't strike me as bad in any way. Rage generation may suffer somewhat if I get unlucky afterwards, but misses are out of the picture, dodge lets me Overpower, and otherwise I'll at least get enough to Slam again. MS will generally be on cooldown then, anyway. Careless slam spam bad, cautious slam spam good?
Been researching some for my warrior and came across this thread. Hoping to get a concise answer to some Fury/DPS questions. I was DW Fury all before the expansion and had top-notch gear, spec'd prot to help the guild through its initial raiding forays in BC (my tanking gear is Kara-Gruul level) and am stepping back into the DPS. However, I have not been part of the DPS game for a while and it looks like some of the rules of the game have changed, especially regarding builds.
You can checkout my armory profile here: The Armory
My short-term plan is to farm the Hourglass of the Unraveller, craft the Tier 1 mace and upgrade it to Tier 2, get the cobrahide for the legs, and enchant both weapons with Mongoose, probably keeping the Emerald Ripper in the OH. I also have a Gorehowl in the bank.
Given that information, what DPS build would give the raid the best dps/benefit. We don't currently have a raiding Arms warrior. I'd love to stick with DW, but if MS with Gorehowl is the way to go short term, I'm okay with it. I've also heard our rogues talking about haste like its the best thing since sliced bread and looking at the Swiftsteel craftables and trinkets etc. it does seem like an awesome stat.
Thanks.
You can checkout my armory profile here: The Armory
My short-term plan is to farm the Hourglass of the Unraveller, craft the Tier 1 mace and upgrade it to Tier 2, get the cobrahide for the legs, and enchant both weapons with Mongoose, probably keeping the Emerald Ripper in the OH. I also have a Gorehowl in the bank.
Given that information, what DPS build would give the raid the best dps/benefit. We don't currently have a raiding Arms warrior. I'd love to stick with DW, but if MS with Gorehowl is the way to go short term, I'm okay with it. I've also heard our rogues talking about haste like its the best thing since sliced bread and looking at the Swiftsteel craftables and trinkets etc. it does seem like an awesome stat.
Thanks.
the way i see it, BT/Hyjal loot seem to suit DW fury builds better because of haste. with flurry, you are already pushing the ideal attack speed cap for slam rotations. with bloodlust, drums, and mongoose, haste seems almost worthless.
not only is haste the issue with MS builds, it's the abundant amount of str/ap in highend that favor BT builds more than MS (Cataclysm's Edge, Legguards of Endless Rage, etc). crit isn't seen as much because haste seem to replace it in endgame gear. crit is one of the, if not, best stats for MS warriors.
if we go the haste route with MS builds, we'd have to change the rotation by removing either MS/WW/HS or Slam from the cycle. removing slam takes away what ms warriors gained from tbc and removing ms/ww/hs will mostly be effective if you slam spam and still manage to get attack swings inbetween the GCDs. that would happen at about 1.0 speed i think, which will probably not be possible with current itemization unless you throw in the once in a while buffs (bloodlust, trophy, drums, etc)
i guess the fate of the dps warriors will lie on how itemization goes after BT/Hyjal. speaking of itemization, the threat-reducing trinket from vashj got a stealth buff and reduces a lot more threat from crits, almost making crits feel like normal attacks for the most part. that can help out the threat issues fury warriors have in threat capped encounters.
i know that you can always pick up other pieces instead of haste gear as MS but that puts a lot of restrictions on your itemization and will restrict your total dps as well. current itemization favors fury warriors so i'm sticking with it for now.
not only is haste the issue with MS builds, it's the abundant amount of str/ap in highend that favor BT builds more than MS (Cataclysm's Edge, Legguards of Endless Rage, etc). crit isn't seen as much because haste seem to replace it in endgame gear. crit is one of the, if not, best stats for MS warriors.
if we go the haste route with MS builds, we'd have to change the rotation by removing either MS/WW/HS or Slam from the cycle. removing slam takes away what ms warriors gained from tbc and removing ms/ww/hs will mostly be effective if you slam spam and still manage to get attack swings inbetween the GCDs. that would happen at about 1.0 speed i think, which will probably not be possible with current itemization unless you throw in the once in a while buffs (bloodlust, trophy, drums, etc)
i guess the fate of the dps warriors will lie on how itemization goes after BT/Hyjal. speaking of itemization, the threat-reducing trinket from vashj got a stealth buff and reduces a lot more threat from crits, almost making crits feel like normal attacks for the most part. that can help out the threat issues fury warriors have in threat capped encounters.
i know that you can always pick up other pieces instead of haste gear as MS but that puts a lot of restrictions on your itemization and will restrict your total dps as well. current itemization favors fury warriors so i'm sticking with it for now.
|
Originally Posted by Calgar
Edit: @Zurgat, 2 points in flurry = 10% less white damage...which makes up ~50% of our damage...so 5% less damage over all. That is made up by doing 4% more damage from Frenzy to almost balance out perfectly. If there is ever a single other physical DPS in the raid, you will see a DPS improvement from 31/30 to 33/28.
True, his rage generation will be hit, but we are talking something like 6% less rage generation here. That about the difference from going to a T2 to a T3 BS weapon rage generation wise. With windfury rage generation usually isn't a problem anyways. |
The reduced rage will also lower his damage a bit then, but still compared to the overall raid bonus it should be very marginal.
Flurry gives extra hits = extra rage.
But, the extra damage from 'Blood Frenzy' should also produce extra rage, correct?
The only exception would be fights where the boss is immune to bleed. (Void Reaver)
|
Originally Posted by Zurgat
But, the extra damage from 'Blood Frenzy' should also produce extra rage, correct?
|
not that we're blessed with it all the time... but doesn't wf take most of the rage generation issues away? i've played both DW fury and MS/Slam and with wf, the only other thing i can spend the rage on is heroic strike (which has it's limits).
Hello,
I'm wondering if anyone is using Rod of the Sun King and whats the ppm? I don't know if I should go for this(proc) or something with stats(al'ar MH fist..). Oh...and we are on kael ATM, so no BT stuff etc avalible.
Any ideas?
I'm wondering if anyone is using Rod of the Sun King and whats the ppm? I don't know if I should go for this(proc) or something with stats(al'ar MH fist..). Oh...and we are on kael ATM, so no BT stuff etc avalible.
Any ideas?
I heard the PPM on the rod is like 6 PPM or something crazy like that.
I picked up my season 2 arena main-hand axe last night and got it mongoosed up. I think the best weapons around pre-kael and Hyjal/BT are the arena S2 weapons sadly.....PvP for PvE gear...booooo.
Managed third on Gruul, 8th on VR (Stupid fight...threat capped and got squished @ 18%), and first on lurker last night.
I picked up my season 2 arena main-hand axe last night and got it mongoosed up. I think the best weapons around pre-kael and Hyjal/BT are the arena S2 weapons sadly.....PvP for PvE gear...booooo.
Managed third on Gruul, 8th on VR (Stupid fight...threat capped and got squished @ 18%), and first on lurker last night.
|
Originally Posted by Amorpheus
I've always loved DW Fury, but shortly before the new arena season started I specced 33/28 mostly to farm myself some new 1-handers to raid with. The irony! Long story short, it's grown on me and I'll be sticking to it for a while to come.
|
|
Originally Posted by shadowscion
not only is haste the issue with MS builds, it's the abundant amount of str/ap in highend that favor BT builds more than MS
|
|
Originally Posted by Aced
Hello,
I'm wondering if anyone is using Rod of the Sun King and whats the ppm? I don't know if I should go for this(proc) or something with stats(al'ar MH fist..). Oh...and we are on kael ATM, so no BT stuff etc avalible. Any ideas? |
Floe - WWS
9 times over 6:12. Doesn't really seem like the proc does much at all.
Can anyone give me some quick numbers on melee crit cap?
I searched the forums and skimmed the last 10 pages of this thread but couldn't find it.
I searched the forums and skimmed the last 10 pages of this thread but couldn't find it.
|
Originally Posted by Gifpaste
|
I'm still checking the numbers from that raid vs a 31-30 build I tried last night. First impressions were that it did indeed hit harder but with the loss of Axe spec, I did feel the crit loss (37.1% in zerker unbuffed with Axe spec). Damage-wise, it was probably pretty close in the long run.
I think with about 30% battle stance crit and 2k attack power (before shout) and you can start to see a clear increase in white hits and Slams in a fury build. Will post some numbers once I finish going through the parses.
If anyone has any number-crunching done, it would be interesting to see their take compared with my first take on it.
|
Originally Posted by Gifpaste
|
Fury has always benefited more from raid buffs than MS, but again, that's independent of gear progression.
|
Originally Posted by Caligula
Can anyone give me some quick numbers on melee crit cap?
I searched the forums and skimmed the last 10 pages of this thread but couldn't find it. |
Assuming you have 0% +hit ...
...25% Glancing
..5,6% Dodge
..0,0% Block
..0,0% Parry
27,6% Miss (8,6% base + 19% dw "penalty")
-------------
41,8% combined hit + crit
This is in fact also your crit cap, since +crit "overwrites" your normal hits. This means, that every point to crit after you reached the 41,8% in this example is useless, because it is simply kicked off the hit-table.
Now if you add +hit to your setup, you will see an increase in the critcap (1% +hit increases your critcap by 1%). Assuming you reach the base +hit (8,6%) wether you go for 2h or dw your critcap is over 50%. This is mostly enough for the standard warrior out there.
I need to find a trinket upgrade.
Im using Bladesfist Breadth and if you can believe this..Drake Fang
What's the best trinket to go for?
Im using Bladesfist Breadth and if you can believe this..Drake Fang
What's the best trinket to go for?
|
Originally Posted by arzenal
I need to find a trinket upgrade.
Im using Bladesfist Breadth and if you can believe this..Drake Fang What's the best trinket to go for? |
|
Originally Posted by arzenal
I need to find a trinket upgrade.
Im using Bladesfist Breadth and if you can believe this..Drake Fang What's the best trinket to go for? |
|
Originally Posted by Apate
Wouldn't wowhead or even the armory provide a solution to your question?
|
I'd say do some BMs and get an hourglass.
Speaking of trinkets, I currently have Bladefist + hourglass and I'm wondering if I should swap hourglass for bloodlust brooch. The AP is really nice, but my crit % is only 26% in zerker so I'm not sure if it's be a good idea.
Speaking of trinkets, I currently have Bladefist + hourglass and I'm wondering if I should swap hourglass for bloodlust brooch. The AP is really nice, but my crit % is only 26% in zerker so I'm not sure if it's be a good idea.
I use Bloodlust and DFT still. DFT is flat out amazing considering it came out of BWL...I actually still use Styleen's when I tank too. Crazy.
I want to eventually get DST and Solarian's Sapphire. Gruul sucks though and we have awful luck.
I want to eventually get DST and Solarian's Sapphire. Gruul sucks though and we have awful luck.
|
Originally Posted by arzenal
not really. Experienced DPS warriors offer better advice than a list of trinkets. Im sorry was there a better place to ask this question?
|
Seen other warriors running around with "Romulo's Poison Vial" for its decent hitrating value, which is also a pretty nice trinket.
Since most of the mentioned trinkets are Raid-Drops, they are not really farmable. If you have no access to such instances, you may try a combination of the hourglass and some standard +hit or +crit trinkets with an "Increase AP by XXX on use"-effect trinkets.
|
Originally Posted by arzenal
not really. Experienced DPS warriors offer better advice than a list of trinkets. Im sorry was there a better place to ask this question?
|
Call me crazy, but I think that posting in proper threads benefits the forum in the long run, as people come back and use features such as "search this topic" or searching post titles; then redundancy is avoided.
Then again, were searching an objective, you might have tacked your question on to DPS Warrior Theorycraft for trinkets wanted
I think the best combo pre-hyjal/BT is Dragonspine and Tsunami (or hourglass). Excellent balance of crit, hit, AP and haste IMO.
I'm currently using hourglass and bloodlust, but from the math i've seen DST DESTROYS all other trinkets in comparison. We had a tsunami drop on our first ever leo kill...we use a silent bid system and i bid what at the time a guild record high bid...only to see a rogue go all in and snag it offa me with an even larger bid. So in revenge, when he pulls agro offa me when tanking, i don't taunt it back until he is well and truly dead...hehe.
This is from a dual wield fury perspective though.
I'm currently using hourglass and bloodlust, but from the math i've seen DST DESTROYS all other trinkets in comparison. We had a tsunami drop on our first ever leo kill...we use a silent bid system and i bid what at the time a guild record high bid...only to see a rogue go all in and snag it offa me with an even larger bid. So in revenge, when he pulls agro offa me when tanking, i don't taunt it back until he is well and truly dead...hehe.
This is from a dual wield fury perspective though.
Edited onPatch 2.1.3
|
Originally Posted by Calgar
@Randor, Yeah, it looks almost like none of the top guilds take a dedicated "Fury dual wield" warrior, they all take 2H warriors for their DPS. Any loss in personal DPS will be made up by Frenzy across the raid. It also solves the problem of Fury's insane agro generation because of using HS as a rage dump by spreading that damage across 5-8 other people.
|
This is the misinformation that spreads like wildfire, so everyone just assumes that since "DnT" doesn't take a Fury Warrior that BF is superior. Schmity even posted in the official forums that "I tried out Fury for one night and it's garbage". An opinion like that is not evidence of anything.
Both Curse and Aurora use Fury Warriors, and I'd consider both of them "top guilds". Look at how many guilds don't bring a single Enhancement Shaman...ever.
BF is no doubt good, but to just outright claim it's "always" superior is baseless. It depends mostly on how much physical damage your raids deal as well as how much of a problem you have with threat.
Last edited by Graul : 07/17/07 at 5:11 PM.
You'd think that after many pages without a clear conclusion, people could agree that it's mostly a preference and setup thing. Aside from Mortal Strike for PvP, there is no clear benefit one has over the other when you look at raid performance. Personally I prefer 33/28 because it's far less "bleeding edge" for threat generation, and also more straightforward to gear. I've always loved DW Fury, but shortly before the new arena season started I specced 33/28 mostly to farm myself some new 1-handers to raid with. The irony! Long story short, it's grown on me and I'll be sticking to it for a while to come.
By the way, about Slam rotation... when I have excess rage and MS/WW on cooldown, I tend to slamspam a bit until a cooldown gets ready or my rage below about 50. I keep hearing back to back slams are bad, but I generally hit for about as much as I do DPS with Slam alone, noncrit, every second. Considering crits, and WF/Sword procs, that doesn't strike me as bad in any way. Rage generation may suffer somewhat if I get unlucky afterwards, but misses are out of the picture, dodge lets me Overpower, and otherwise I'll at least get enough to Slam again. MS will generally be on cooldown then, anyway. Careless slam spam bad, cautious slam spam good?
By the way, about Slam rotation... when I have excess rage and MS/WW on cooldown, I tend to slamspam a bit until a cooldown gets ready or my rage below about 50. I keep hearing back to back slams are bad, but I generally hit for about as much as I do DPS with Slam alone, noncrit, every second. Considering crits, and WF/Sword procs, that doesn't strike me as bad in any way. Rage generation may suffer somewhat if I get unlucky afterwards, but misses are out of the picture, dodge lets me Overpower, and otherwise I'll at least get enough to Slam again. MS will generally be on cooldown then, anyway. Careless slam spam bad, cautious slam spam good?
Been researching some for my warrior and came across this thread. Hoping to get a concise answer to some Fury/DPS questions. I was DW Fury all before the expansion and had top-notch gear, spec'd prot to help the guild through its initial raiding forays in BC (my tanking gear is Kara-Gruul level) and am stepping back into the DPS. However, I have not been part of the DPS game for a while and it looks like some of the rules of the game have changed, especially regarding builds.
You can checkout my armory profile here: The Armory
My short-term plan is to farm the Hourglass of the Unraveller, craft the Tier 1 mace and upgrade it to Tier 2, get the cobrahide for the legs, and enchant both weapons with Mongoose, probably keeping the Emerald Ripper in the OH. I also have a Gorehowl in the bank.
Given that information, what DPS build would give the raid the best dps/benefit. We don't currently have a raiding Arms warrior. I'd love to stick with DW, but if MS with Gorehowl is the way to go short term, I'm okay with it. I've also heard our rogues talking about haste like its the best thing since sliced bread and looking at the Swiftsteel craftables and trinkets etc. it does seem like an awesome stat.
Thanks.
You can checkout my armory profile here: The Armory
My short-term plan is to farm the Hourglass of the Unraveller, craft the Tier 1 mace and upgrade it to Tier 2, get the cobrahide for the legs, and enchant both weapons with Mongoose, probably keeping the Emerald Ripper in the OH. I also have a Gorehowl in the bank.
Given that information, what DPS build would give the raid the best dps/benefit. We don't currently have a raiding Arms warrior. I'd love to stick with DW, but if MS with Gorehowl is the way to go short term, I'm okay with it. I've also heard our rogues talking about haste like its the best thing since sliced bread and looking at the Swiftsteel craftables and trinkets etc. it does seem like an awesome stat.
Thanks.
the way i see it, BT/Hyjal loot seem to suit DW fury builds better because of haste. with flurry, you are already pushing the ideal attack speed cap for slam rotations. with bloodlust, drums, and mongoose, haste seems almost worthless.
not only is haste the issue with MS builds, it's the abundant amount of str/ap in highend that favor BT builds more than MS (Cataclysm's Edge, Legguards of Endless Rage, etc). crit isn't seen as much because haste seem to replace it in endgame gear. crit is one of the, if not, best stats for MS warriors.
if we go the haste route with MS builds, we'd have to change the rotation by removing either MS/WW/HS or Slam from the cycle. removing slam takes away what ms warriors gained from tbc and removing ms/ww/hs will mostly be effective if you slam spam and still manage to get attack swings inbetween the GCDs. that would happen at about 1.0 speed i think, which will probably not be possible with current itemization unless you throw in the once in a while buffs (bloodlust, trophy, drums, etc)
i guess the fate of the dps warriors will lie on how itemization goes after BT/Hyjal. speaking of itemization, the threat-reducing trinket from vashj got a stealth buff and reduces a lot more threat from crits, almost making crits feel like normal attacks for the most part. that can help out the threat issues fury warriors have in threat capped encounters.
i know that you can always pick up other pieces instead of haste gear as MS but that puts a lot of restrictions on your itemization and will restrict your total dps as well. current itemization favors fury warriors so i'm sticking with it for now.
not only is haste the issue with MS builds, it's the abundant amount of str/ap in highend that favor BT builds more than MS (Cataclysm's Edge, Legguards of Endless Rage, etc). crit isn't seen as much because haste seem to replace it in endgame gear. crit is one of the, if not, best stats for MS warriors.
if we go the haste route with MS builds, we'd have to change the rotation by removing either MS/WW/HS or Slam from the cycle. removing slam takes away what ms warriors gained from tbc and removing ms/ww/hs will mostly be effective if you slam spam and still manage to get attack swings inbetween the GCDs. that would happen at about 1.0 speed i think, which will probably not be possible with current itemization unless you throw in the once in a while buffs (bloodlust, trophy, drums, etc)
i guess the fate of the dps warriors will lie on how itemization goes after BT/Hyjal. speaking of itemization, the threat-reducing trinket from vashj got a stealth buff and reduces a lot more threat from crits, almost making crits feel like normal attacks for the most part. that can help out the threat issues fury warriors have in threat capped encounters.
i know that you can always pick up other pieces instead of haste gear as MS but that puts a lot of restrictions on your itemization and will restrict your total dps as well. current itemization favors fury warriors so i'm sticking with it for now.
|
Originally Posted by Calgar
Edit: @Zurgat, 2 points in flurry = 10% less white damage...which makes up ~50% of our damage...so 5% less damage over all. That is made up by doing 4% more damage from Frenzy to almost balance out perfectly. If there is ever a single other physical DPS in the raid, you will see a DPS improvement from 31/30 to 33/28.
True, his rage generation will be hit, but we are talking something like 6% less rage generation here. That about the difference from going to a T2 to a T3 BS weapon rage generation wise. With windfury rage generation usually isn't a problem anyways. |
The reduced rage will also lower his damage a bit then, but still compared to the overall raid bonus it should be very marginal.
Flurry gives extra hits = extra rage.
But, the extra damage from 'Blood Frenzy' should also produce extra rage, correct?
The only exception would be fights where the boss is immune to bleed. (Void Reaver)
|
Originally Posted by Zurgat
But, the extra damage from 'Blood Frenzy' should also produce extra rage, correct?
|
not that we're blessed with it all the time... but doesn't wf take most of the rage generation issues away? i've played both DW fury and MS/Slam and with wf, the only other thing i can spend the rage on is heroic strike (which has it's limits).
Hello,
I'm wondering if anyone is using Rod of the Sun King and whats the ppm? I don't know if I should go for this(proc) or something with stats(al'ar MH fist..). Oh...and we are on kael ATM, so no BT stuff etc avalible.
Any ideas?
I'm wondering if anyone is using Rod of the Sun King and whats the ppm? I don't know if I should go for this(proc) or something with stats(al'ar MH fist..). Oh...and we are on kael ATM, so no BT stuff etc avalible.
Any ideas?
I heard the PPM on the rod is like 6 PPM or something crazy like that.
I picked up my season 2 arena main-hand axe last night and got it mongoosed up. I think the best weapons around pre-kael and Hyjal/BT are the arena S2 weapons sadly.....PvP for PvE gear...booooo.
Managed third on Gruul, 8th on VR (Stupid fight...threat capped and got squished @ 18%), and first on lurker last night.
I picked up my season 2 arena main-hand axe last night and got it mongoosed up. I think the best weapons around pre-kael and Hyjal/BT are the arena S2 weapons sadly.....PvP for PvE gear...booooo.
Managed third on Gruul, 8th on VR (Stupid fight...threat capped and got squished @ 18%), and first on lurker last night.
|
Originally Posted by Amorpheus
I've always loved DW Fury, but shortly before the new arena season started I specced 33/28 mostly to farm myself some new 1-handers to raid with. The irony! Long story short, it's grown on me and I'll be sticking to it for a while to come.
|
|
Originally Posted by shadowscion
not only is haste the issue with MS builds, it's the abundant amount of str/ap in highend that favor BT builds more than MS
|
|
Originally Posted by Aced
Hello,
I'm wondering if anyone is using Rod of the Sun King and whats the ppm? I don't know if I should go for this(proc) or something with stats(al'ar MH fist..). Oh...and we are on kael ATM, so no BT stuff etc avalible. Any ideas? |
Floe - WWS
9 times over 6:12. Doesn't really seem like the proc does much at all.
Can anyone give me some quick numbers on melee crit cap?
I searched the forums and skimmed the last 10 pages of this thread but couldn't find it.
I searched the forums and skimmed the last 10 pages of this thread but couldn't find it.
|
Originally Posted by Gifpaste
|
I'm still checking the numbers from that raid vs a 31-30 build I tried last night. First impressions were that it did indeed hit harder but with the loss of Axe spec, I did feel the crit loss (37.1% in zerker unbuffed with Axe spec). Damage-wise, it was probably pretty close in the long run.
I think with about 30% battle stance crit and 2k attack power (before shout) and you can start to see a clear increase in white hits and Slams in a fury build. Will post some numbers once I finish going through the parses.
If anyone has any number-crunching done, it would be interesting to see their take compared with my first take on it.
|
Originally Posted by Gifpaste
|
Fury has always benefited more from raid buffs than MS, but again, that's independent of gear progression.
|
Originally Posted by Caligula
Can anyone give me some quick numbers on melee crit cap?
I searched the forums and skimmed the last 10 pages of this thread but couldn't find it. |
Assuming you have 0% +hit ...
...25% Glancing
..5,6% Dodge
..0,0% Block
..0,0% Parry
27,6% Miss (8,6% base + 19% dw "penalty")
-------------
41,8% combined hit + crit
This is in fact also your crit cap, since +crit "overwrites" your normal hits. This means, that every point to crit after you reached the 41,8% in this example is useless, because it is simply kicked off the hit-table.
Now if you add +hit to your setup, you will see an increase in the critcap (1% +hit increases your critcap by 1%). Assuming you reach the base +hit (8,6%) wether you go for 2h or dw your critcap is over 50%. This is mostly enough for the standard warrior out there.
I need to find a trinket upgrade.
Im using Bladesfist Breadth and if you can believe this..Drake Fang
What's the best trinket to go for?
Im using Bladesfist Breadth and if you can believe this..Drake Fang
What's the best trinket to go for?
|
Originally Posted by arzenal
I need to find a trinket upgrade.
Im using Bladesfist Breadth and if you can believe this..Drake Fang What's the best trinket to go for? |
|
Originally Posted by arzenal
I need to find a trinket upgrade.
Im using Bladesfist Breadth and if you can believe this..Drake Fang What's the best trinket to go for? |
|
Originally Posted by Apate
Wouldn't wowhead or even the armory provide a solution to your question?
|
I'd say do some BMs and get an hourglass.
Speaking of trinkets, I currently have Bladefist + hourglass and I'm wondering if I should swap hourglass for bloodlust brooch. The AP is really nice, but my crit % is only 26% in zerker so I'm not sure if it's be a good idea.
Speaking of trinkets, I currently have Bladefist + hourglass and I'm wondering if I should swap hourglass for bloodlust brooch. The AP is really nice, but my crit % is only 26% in zerker so I'm not sure if it's be a good idea.
I use Bloodlust and DFT still. DFT is flat out amazing considering it came out of BWL...I actually still use Styleen's when I tank too. Crazy.
I want to eventually get DST and Solarian's Sapphire. Gruul sucks though and we have awful luck.
I want to eventually get DST and Solarian's Sapphire. Gruul sucks though and we have awful luck.
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Originally Posted by arzenal
not really. Experienced DPS warriors offer better advice than a list of trinkets. Im sorry was there a better place to ask this question?
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Seen other warriors running around with "Romulo's Poison Vial" for its decent hitrating value, which is also a pretty nice trinket.
Since most of the mentioned trinkets are Raid-Drops, they are not really farmable. If you have no access to such instances, you may try a combination of the hourglass and some standard +hit or +crit trinkets with an "Increase AP by XXX on use"-effect trinkets.
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Originally Posted by arzenal
not really. Experienced DPS warriors offer better advice than a list of trinkets. Im sorry was there a better place to ask this question?
|
Call me crazy, but I think that posting in proper threads benefits the forum in the long run, as people come back and use features such as "search this topic" or searching post titles; then redundancy is avoided.
Then again, were searching an objective, you might have tacked your question on to DPS Warrior Theorycraft for trinkets wanted
I think the best combo pre-hyjal/BT is Dragonspine and Tsunami (or hourglass). Excellent balance of crit, hit, AP and haste IMO.
I'm currently using hourglass and bloodlust, but from the math i've seen DST DESTROYS all other trinkets in comparison. We had a tsunami drop on our first ever leo kill...we use a silent bid system and i bid what at the time a guild record high bid...only to see a rogue go all in and snag it offa me with an even larger bid. So in revenge, when he pulls agro offa me when tanking, i don't taunt it back until he is well and truly dead...hehe.
This is from a dual wield fury perspective though.
I'm currently using hourglass and bloodlust, but from the math i've seen DST DESTROYS all other trinkets in comparison. We had a tsunami drop on our first ever leo kill...we use a silent bid system and i bid what at the time a guild record high bid...only to see a rogue go all in and snag it offa me with an even larger bid. So in revenge, when he pulls agro offa me when tanking, i don't taunt it back until he is well and truly dead...hehe.
This is from a dual wield fury perspective though.
|
Originally Posted by Marn
This is pretty easy. Let's take a combat table for a dw fury warrior attacking a boss from behind as an example:
Assuming you have 0% +hit ... ...25% Glancing ..5,6% Dodge ..0,0% Block ..0,0% Parry 27,6% Miss (8,6% base + 19% dw "penalty") ------------- 41,8% combined hit + crit This is in fact also your crit cap, since +crit "overwrites" your normal hits. This means, that every point to crit after you reached the 41,8% in this example is useless, because it is simply kicked off the hit-table. Now if you add +hit to your setup, you will see an increase in the critcap (1% +hit increases your critcap by 1%). Assuming you reach the base +hit (8,6%) wether you go for 2h or dw your critcap is over 50%. This is mostly enough for the standard warrior out there. |
So in revenge, when he pulls agro offa me when tanking, i don't taunt it back until he is well and truly dead...hehe.
This is from a dual wield fury perspective though.[/quote]
Thats is gold ROFL
This is from a dual wield fury perspective though.[/quote]
Thats is gold ROFL
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Originally Posted by ckaparos
So in revenge, when he pulls agro offa me when tanking, i don't taunt it back until he is well and truly dead...hehe.
This is from a dual wield fury perspective though. |
Same issue with those nasty mages, who refuse to resheep a cc'ed mob, that "accidently" ran into my whirlwind range *sigh*
Just wanted to share my experiences from the last few days in relation to haste gear. I bought the swiftsteel shoulders plan and 2 hearts of darkness from the top guild on the server (there goes another 3k gold to em, making over 6k total....at least im financing their raiding, heh).
I was using the crumby leather shoulders from the chess event upto this point, and i have to say that the difference is STAGGERING. I managed something like fourth on DPS on the SSC trash last night just playing around in battle stance, not really working on my rotation at all. The 40+ ap, and 3% haste has made a noticeable difference in my DPS, and i can't wait to squeeze in some more haste gear when we start getting into BT....i imagine it will be INSANE for our DPS scaling.
If we are able to work haste into the rest of our gear without sacrificing too much hit, AP or Crit, it will make fury....interesting later on.
I was using the crumby leather shoulders from the chess event upto this point, and i have to say that the difference is STAGGERING. I managed something like fourth on DPS on the SSC trash last night just playing around in battle stance, not really working on my rotation at all. The 40+ ap, and 3% haste has made a noticeable difference in my DPS, and i can't wait to squeeze in some more haste gear when we start getting into BT....i imagine it will be INSANE for our DPS scaling.
If we are able to work haste into the rest of our gear without sacrificing too much hit, AP or Crit, it will make fury....interesting later on.
Edited onPatch 2.1.3
Im a believer in haste now. Even tho I dont have any static haste yet, just using haste potion+T3 crafted mace+abacus with heroism is simply GODLY.
Heres a screenshot I got from some trash clears, note the top recount window showing 4500 dps burst for a few seconds :O
2.7spd weapon attacking at .87 is sooo sweet!
Heres a screenshot I got from some trash clears, note the top recount window showing 4500 dps burst for a few seconds :O
2.7spd weapon attacking at .87 is sooo sweet!
Last edited by madrussian : 07/25/07 at 3:55 AM.
I dont think performance during trash clears is the best "proof" of how effective haste is. I dont have a single piece of haste gear, but I'm easily top 5 on trash with 33/28.
I do agree that haste is great for warriors, but a better grasp on the effectiveness would probably be to do 2 phrases on those unkillable mobs in blasted lands, one with haste gear and one with out.
I do agree that haste is great for warriors, but a better grasp on the effectiveness would probably be to do 2 phrases on those unkillable mobs in blasted lands, one with haste gear and one with out.
Short haste buffs aren't necessarily a major factor in overall DPS, but it's *huge* for burst damage situations, which come up pretty frequently. Enrages, multi-stage encounters, vulnerably phases, etc.
So looking up for some advice from someone whos switched from DW to arms hybrid, how much dps can I expect to lose based on my gear? My main focus has been crit all along, but my worries are the item budgets of my gear having spent too much on +hit(rings), and I have the T3 BS mainhand; my 2h would be gorehowl.
Its tough to know what type of gearset people have in mind when discussing the theorycraft.
The Armory
Its tough to know what type of gearset people have in mind when discussing the theorycraft.
The Armory
|
Originally Posted by Salted
So looking up for some advice from someone whos switched from DW to arms hybrid, how much dps can I expect to lose based on my gear? My main focus has been crit all along, but my worries are the item budgets of my gear having spent too much on +hit(rings), and I have the T3 BS mainhand; my 2h would be gorehowl.
Its tough to know what type of gearset people have in mind when discussing the theorycraft. The Armory |
At request of my fellow officer and raid leader I switched over from DW to 2 Handed for constant blood frenzy, I was using Dragonstrike and Glad OH was aiming for Swiftsteel OH, had to adapt my gear quite a lot and decided to aim for haste gear. I got my sword and gloves last night as they finally dropped and this is what i'm using atm:
The Armory
Before last night though I had the gruul gloves and Torch of the Damned with mace spec (which is obviously not ideal in pve) but here are some of the WWS of our Hyjal clear last night:
Winterchill (got a lot of D+D): Wow Web Stats
Anetheron: Wow Web Stats
Kazrogal: Wow Web Stats
Azgalor (lots of fire+silence = dead warrior): Wow Web Stats
Archimonde: Wow Web Stats
As you can see in the stand still and spank fights I was about 200 dps behind our top DW warrior Boomkat and I think I can pull some of that back with sword spec now, Gorefiend tonite will be a nice test
The Armory
Before last night though I had the gruul gloves and Torch of the Damned with mace spec (which is obviously not ideal in pve) but here are some of the WWS of our Hyjal clear last night:
Winterchill (got a lot of D+D): Wow Web Stats
Anetheron: Wow Web Stats
Kazrogal: Wow Web Stats
Azgalor (lots of fire+silence = dead warrior): Wow Web Stats
Archimonde: Wow Web Stats
As you can see in the stand still and spank fights I was about 200 dps behind our top DW warrior Boomkat and I think I can pull some of that back with sword spec now, Gorefiend tonite will be a nice test
|
Originally Posted by Cannings
At request of my fellow officer and raid leader I switched over from DW to 2 Handed for constant blood frenzy, I was using Dragonstrike and Glad OH was aiming for Swiftsteel OH, had to adapt my gear quite a lot and decided to aim for haste gear. I got my sword and gloves last night as they finally dropped and this is what i'm using atm:
The Armory Before last night though I had the gruul gloves and Torch of the Damned with mace spec (which is obviously not ideal in pve) but here are some of the WWS of our Hyjal clear last night: Winterchill (got a lot of D+D): Wow Web Stats Anetheron: Wow Web Stats Kazrogal: Wow Web Stats Azgalor (lots of fire+silence = dead warrior): Wow Web Stats Archimonde: Wow Web Stats As you can see in the stand still and spank fights I was about 200 dps behind our top DW warrior Boomkat and I think I can pull some of that back with sword spec now, Gorefiend tonite will be a nice test |
I also noticed my dps is kinda "streaky", especially on short fights like gorefiend.
Gorefiend: Wow Web Stats this is our latest gorefiend kill. 1150 dps + ~350 dps from BF are quite ok numbers. A few attempts before, when we wiped below 10% I sustained 1300 dps though. With a slow hard hitting 2H in a short fight the numbers can indeed differ a lot.
re: 2H BF vs. DW Fury
The DPS warriors in my guild are experimenting with 2H DPS also this week. They're reporting that they are much less threat-capped because they do not have to rage dump with Heroic Strike as much with a 2H build, and thus can do about as much damage as a DW Fury build, if not more. And the BF debuff is just the icing on the cake.
Anyone else having this experience? That DW Fury is just too threat capped in most situations?
The DPS warriors in my guild are experimenting with 2H DPS also this week. They're reporting that they are much less threat-capped because they do not have to rage dump with Heroic Strike as much with a 2H build, and thus can do about as much damage as a DW Fury build, if not more. And the BF debuff is just the icing on the cake.
Anyone else having this experience? That DW Fury is just too threat capped in most situations?
Edited onPatch 2.1.3
DW Fury (1534 DPS), Anetheron, perfectly threat capped (pulled aggro at moment of death) : Loading...
The 2H MS warrior (33/27) is usually closer. Example: Najentus: Wow Web Stats
Teron Gorefiend kill, good example where I was close to threat capped: Wow Web Stats
If the MS warrior gets in the enhancement shaman group with me, he is usually pretty close in damage. His blood frenzy definitely brings his total raid contribution above mine. I usually sit in the enhancement/rogue group because I have Solarian's Sapphire - Items - World of Warcraft
The 2H MS warrior (33/27) is usually closer. Example: Najentus: Wow Web Stats
Teron Gorefiend kill, good example where I was close to threat capped: Wow Web Stats
If the MS warrior gets in the enhancement shaman group with me, he is usually pretty close in damage. His blood frenzy definitely brings his total raid contribution above mine. I usually sit in the enhancement/rogue group because I have Solarian's Sapphire - Items - World of Warcraft
Last edited by Natural : 07/27/07 at 4:01 PM.
Question: Why is it assumed that you need to rage dump with HS? In my 17/44 I spec imp. cleave.
Edited onPatch 2.1.3
Err quick question.
Off-hand Windfury procs, mean you get an extra attack from your Main-hand correct?
If you have something like a Sharpening Stone on your off-hand, does that mean your off-hand can no longer proc Windfury?
Off-hand Windfury procs, mean you get an extra attack from your Main-hand correct?
If you have something like a Sharpening Stone on your off-hand, does that mean your off-hand can no longer proc Windfury?
Last edited by Emeraude : 07/26/07 at 9:33 PM.
So I did my first KZ raid this evening as DPS. I've tanked up to curator fine in the past but since I'm focusing on PvP a bit more they've put me down as DPSing warrior for the guild. I need to keep my build for PvP so I'm 32/25/3 mace spec (not a huge help to my dps anyway) So I found myself on par with a hunter and an arcane mage (not fire, he was using missles and blast) who werent doing that great in the dpsing departs. Which means I wasnt either.
A lot of my gear is PvP now such as Vet stuff and High Warlord gear so as a DPS 2h Warrior what do I need to keep up half-decent DPS?
So what am I looking for gear-wise and stat-wise for dpsing with a 2hander? (I do have imp. slam which i was using after my normal swing).
A lot of my gear is PvP now such as Vet stuff and High Warlord gear so as a DPS 2h Warrior what do I need to keep up half-decent DPS?
So what am I looking for gear-wise and stat-wise for dpsing with a 2hander? (I do have imp. slam which i was using after my normal swing).
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Originally Posted by Emeraude
Err quick question.
Off-hand Windfury procs, mean you get an extra attack from your Main-hand correct? If you have something like a Sharpening Stone on your off-hand, does that mean your off-hand can no longer proc Windfury? |
|
Originally Posted by Edoc
So I did my first KZ raid this evening as DPS. I've tanked up to curator fine in the past but since I'm focusing on PvP a bit more they've put me down as DPSing warrior for the guild. I need to keep my build for PvP so I'm 32/25/3 mace spec (not a huge help to my dps anyway) So I found myself on par with a hunter and an arcane mage (not fire, he was using missles and blast) who werent doing that great in the dpsing departs. Which means I wasnt either.
A lot of my gear is PvP now such as Vet stuff and High Warlord gear so as a DPS 2h Warrior what do I need to keep up half-decent DPS? So what am I looking for gear-wise and stat-wise for dpsing with a 2hander? (I do have imp. slam which i was using after my normal swing). |
Statwise in general, for 2h I tend to prefer a more crit heavy gear set than with fury, but that's sort of a feeling, no numbers to back it up. But get to hit cap! Even if you have to swap in a piece or two of leather or mail, hit rating is by far the most efficient way to improve your DPS until 8.6% or there abouts. Especially if your not running flurry, but even with it.
Edited onPatch 2.1.3
I'm just not sure how to really maximize my DPS. I've downloaded the warrior spreadsheet and tested a few things out and improved my DPS, but i still seem to be far behind some of you other guys. I can't really push past 700-900 DPS (depending on the fight), and if I'm lacking lotp/WF, I drop down more. I don't think I'm optimizing my rage usage, but i use a BT/WW cycle with hamstrings in between and heroic strike as a rage dump (or cleave when theres multiple mobs/adds). My gear, compared to the rogues, is not that great considering i've spent most of my dkp on tanking items and just recently respecced fury by request of one of our officers.
Am I choosing the wrong stats? Here is my armory: The Armory
Anyone have any advice about how to more effectively DPS? Should I stack more AP and crit? Should I focus on major agil pots, or flasks of RA? I use the str food and sharpening stones. What kind of DPS should i be doing with this kind of gear?
also, anyone notice BT crit rate being significantly lower than other attacks? my white crit rate was above 30% the other night, but BT crit rate was like 21%. That just seems ridiculously low.
Am I choosing the wrong stats? Here is my armory: The Armory
Anyone have any advice about how to more effectively DPS? Should I stack more AP and crit? Should I focus on major agil pots, or flasks of RA? I use the str food and sharpening stones. What kind of DPS should i be doing with this kind of gear?
also, anyone notice BT crit rate being significantly lower than other attacks? my white crit rate was above 30% the other night, but BT crit rate was like 21%. That just seems ridiculously low.
Last edited by Bsiddiq : 07/27/07 at 3:21 AM.
With glancing blows reduced by 15%, I would like to know who in God's name is hitting the crit cap, so why is this topic even coming up? I suppose maybe someone is thinking to themselves how their overpower just isn't efficient....
btw, I just thought I'd report back how switching to 33/28 went...
On Gruul today, with Windfury, I was between 1100 and 1400 dps, which is an increase from 17/44 for me. Not to mention the 4% from blood frenzy for the raid. I also did that much dps without pulling aggro, something I couldn't do spamming HS for max dps.
Without windfury...600-800 dps.
Seriously, WF makes this build work.
On Gruul today, with Windfury, I was between 1100 and 1400 dps, which is an increase from 17/44 for me. Not to mention the 4% from blood frenzy for the raid. I also did that much dps without pulling aggro, something I couldn't do spamming HS for max dps.
Without windfury...600-800 dps.
Seriously, WF makes this build work.
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Originally Posted by Salted
Question: Why is it assumed that you need to rage dump with HS? In my 17/44 I spec imp. cleave.
|
[Warrior] Future of a DPS Warrior
Also, my comments above comparing 2H MS/BF and DW Fury assume that the DPS warrior is in a shaman group.
I dunno if this has been mentioned yet. I've checked the past 6 previous pages, but Prism of Inner Calm recently got buffed.
The old trinket reduced threat by 54 per critical strike, the new threat reduction is 150 per critical strike.
Prism of Inner Calm - Items - World of Warcraft
Crit Threat Reduction Melee - Spells - World of Warcraft
Threat Reduction - Spells - World of Warcraft
The old trinket reduced threat by 54 per critical strike, the new threat reduction is 150 per critical strike.
Prism of Inner Calm - Items - World of Warcraft
Crit Threat Reduction Melee - Spells - World of Warcraft
Threat Reduction - Spells - World of Warcraft
|
Originally Posted by Emeraude
Err quick question.
Off-hand Windfury procs, mean you get an extra attack from your Main-hand correct? If you have something like a Sharpening Stone on your off-hand, does that mean your off-hand can no longer proc Windfury? |
@Natural, How in the HELL did you do 1500 DPS on Anetheron?!? Our gear is very very similar, but you are doing close to double my damage somehow.
Were you buffed like mad? food/flask/sharpening stone/3 pally buffs/enhancement shaman?
Does anetheron have extremely low armor?
Is there something you are able to cleave/WW the crap out of? (doesn't look like it from the logs)
Were you buffed like mad? food/flask/sharpening stone/3 pally buffs/enhancement shaman?
Does anetheron have extremely low armor?
Is there something you are able to cleave/WW the crap out of? (doesn't look like it from the logs)
|
Originally Posted by Marn
This is pretty easy. Let's take a combat table for a dw fury warrior attacking a boss from behind as an example:
Assuming you have 0% +hit ... ...25% Glancing ..5,6% Dodge ..0,0% Block ..0,0% Parry 27,6% Miss (8,6% base + 19% dw "penalty") ------------- 41,8% combined hit + crit This is in fact also your crit cap, since +crit "overwrites" your normal hits. This means, that every point to crit after you reached the 41,8% in this example is useless, because it is simply kicked off the hit-table. Now if you add +hit to your setup, you will see an increase in the critcap (1% +hit increases your critcap by 1%). Assuming you reach the base +hit (8,6%) wether you go for 2h or dw your critcap is over 50%. This is mostly enough for the standard warrior out there. |
So in revenge, when he pulls agro offa me when tanking, i don't taunt it back until he is well and truly dead...hehe.
This is from a dual wield fury perspective though.[/quote]
Thats is gold ROFL
This is from a dual wield fury perspective though.[/quote]
Thats is gold ROFL
|
Originally Posted by ckaparos
So in revenge, when he pulls agro offa me when tanking, i don't taunt it back until he is well and truly dead...hehe.
This is from a dual wield fury perspective though. |
Same issue with those nasty mages, who refuse to resheep a cc'ed mob, that "accidently" ran into my whirlwind range *sigh*
Just wanted to share my experiences from the last few days in relation to haste gear. I bought the swiftsteel shoulders plan and 2 hearts of darkness from the top guild on the server (there goes another 3k gold to em, making over 6k total....at least im financing their raiding, heh).
I was using the crumby leather shoulders from the chess event upto this point, and i have to say that the difference is STAGGERING. I managed something like fourth on DPS on the SSC trash last night just playing around in battle stance, not really working on my rotation at all. The 40+ ap, and 3% haste has made a noticeable difference in my DPS, and i can't wait to squeeze in some more haste gear when we start getting into BT....i imagine it will be INSANE for our DPS scaling.
If we are able to work haste into the rest of our gear without sacrificing too much hit, AP or Crit, it will make fury....interesting later on.
I was using the crumby leather shoulders from the chess event upto this point, and i have to say that the difference is STAGGERING. I managed something like fourth on DPS on the SSC trash last night just playing around in battle stance, not really working on my rotation at all. The 40+ ap, and 3% haste has made a noticeable difference in my DPS, and i can't wait to squeeze in some more haste gear when we start getting into BT....i imagine it will be INSANE for our DPS scaling.
If we are able to work haste into the rest of our gear without sacrificing too much hit, AP or Crit, it will make fury....interesting later on.
Edited onPatch 2.1.3
Im a believer in haste now. Even tho I dont have any static haste yet, just using haste potion+T3 crafted mace+abacus with heroism is simply GODLY.
Heres a screenshot I got from some trash clears, note the top recount window showing 4500 dps burst for a few seconds :O
2.7spd weapon attacking at .87 is sooo sweet!
Heres a screenshot I got from some trash clears, note the top recount window showing 4500 dps burst for a few seconds :O
2.7spd weapon attacking at .87 is sooo sweet!
Last edited by madrussian : 07/25/07 at 3:55 AM.
I dont think performance during trash clears is the best "proof" of how effective haste is. I dont have a single piece of haste gear, but I'm easily top 5 on trash with 33/28.
I do agree that haste is great for warriors, but a better grasp on the effectiveness would probably be to do 2 phrases on those unkillable mobs in blasted lands, one with haste gear and one with out.
I do agree that haste is great for warriors, but a better grasp on the effectiveness would probably be to do 2 phrases on those unkillable mobs in blasted lands, one with haste gear and one with out.
Short haste buffs aren't necessarily a major factor in overall DPS, but it's *huge* for burst damage situations, which come up pretty frequently. Enrages, multi-stage encounters, vulnerably phases, etc.
So looking up for some advice from someone whos switched from DW to arms hybrid, how much dps can I expect to lose based on my gear? My main focus has been crit all along, but my worries are the item budgets of my gear having spent too much on +hit(rings), and I have the T3 BS mainhand; my 2h would be gorehowl.
Its tough to know what type of gearset people have in mind when discussing the theorycraft.
The Armory
Its tough to know what type of gearset people have in mind when discussing the theorycraft.
The Armory
|
Originally Posted by Salted
So looking up for some advice from someone whos switched from DW to arms hybrid, how much dps can I expect to lose based on my gear? My main focus has been crit all along, but my worries are the item budgets of my gear having spent too much on +hit(rings), and I have the T3 BS mainhand; my 2h would be gorehowl.
Its tough to know what type of gearset people have in mind when discussing the theorycraft. The Armory |
At request of my fellow officer and raid leader I switched over from DW to 2 Handed for constant blood frenzy, I was using Dragonstrike and Glad OH was aiming for Swiftsteel OH, had to adapt my gear quite a lot and decided to aim for haste gear. I got my sword and gloves last night as they finally dropped and this is what i'm using atm:
The Armory
Before last night though I had the gruul gloves and Torch of the Damned with mace spec (which is obviously not ideal in pve) but here are some of the WWS of our Hyjal clear last night:
Winterchill (got a lot of D+D): Wow Web Stats
Anetheron: Wow Web Stats
Kazrogal: Wow Web Stats
Azgalor (lots of fire+silence = dead warrior): Wow Web Stats
Archimonde: Wow Web Stats
As you can see in the stand still and spank fights I was about 200 dps behind our top DW warrior Boomkat and I think I can pull some of that back with sword spec now, Gorefiend tonite will be a nice test
The Armory
Before last night though I had the gruul gloves and Torch of the Damned with mace spec (which is obviously not ideal in pve) but here are some of the WWS of our Hyjal clear last night:
Winterchill (got a lot of D+D): Wow Web Stats
Anetheron: Wow Web Stats
Kazrogal: Wow Web Stats
Azgalor (lots of fire+silence = dead warrior): Wow Web Stats
Archimonde: Wow Web Stats
As you can see in the stand still and spank fights I was about 200 dps behind our top DW warrior Boomkat and I think I can pull some of that back with sword spec now, Gorefiend tonite will be a nice test
|
Originally Posted by Cannings
At request of my fellow officer and raid leader I switched over from DW to 2 Handed for constant blood frenzy, I was using Dragonstrike and Glad OH was aiming for Swiftsteel OH, had to adapt my gear quite a lot and decided to aim for haste gear. I got my sword and gloves last night as they finally dropped and this is what i'm using atm:
The Armory Before last night though I had the gruul gloves and Torch of the Damned with mace spec (which is obviously not ideal in pve) but here are some of the WWS of our Hyjal clear last night: Winterchill (got a lot of D+D): Wow Web Stats Anetheron: Wow Web Stats Kazrogal: Wow Web Stats Azgalor (lots of fire+silence = dead warrior): Wow Web Stats Archimonde: Wow Web Stats As you can see in the stand still and spank fights I was about 200 dps behind our top DW warrior Boomkat and I think I can pull some of that back with sword spec now, Gorefiend tonite will be a nice test |
I also noticed my dps is kinda "streaky", especially on short fights like gorefiend.
Gorefiend: Wow Web Stats this is our latest gorefiend kill. 1150 dps + ~350 dps from BF are quite ok numbers. A few attempts before, when we wiped below 10% I sustained 1300 dps though. With a slow hard hitting 2H in a short fight the numbers can indeed differ a lot.
re: 2H BF vs. DW Fury
The DPS warriors in my guild are experimenting with 2H DPS also this week. They're reporting that they are much less threat-capped because they do not have to rage dump with Heroic Strike as much with a 2H build, and thus can do about as much damage as a DW Fury build, if not more. And the BF debuff is just the icing on the cake.
Anyone else having this experience? That DW Fury is just too threat capped in most situations?
The DPS warriors in my guild are experimenting with 2H DPS also this week. They're reporting that they are much less threat-capped because they do not have to rage dump with Heroic Strike as much with a 2H build, and thus can do about as much damage as a DW Fury build, if not more. And the BF debuff is just the icing on the cake.
Anyone else having this experience? That DW Fury is just too threat capped in most situations?
Edited onPatch 2.1.3
DW Fury (1534 DPS), Anetheron, perfectly threat capped (pulled aggro at moment of death) : Loading...
The 2H MS warrior (33/27) is usually closer. Example: Najentus: Wow Web Stats
Teron Gorefiend kill, good example where I was close to threat capped: Wow Web Stats
If the MS warrior gets in the enhancement shaman group with me, he is usually pretty close in damage. His blood frenzy definitely brings his total raid contribution above mine. I usually sit in the enhancement/rogue group because I have Solarian's Sapphire - Items - World of Warcraft
The 2H MS warrior (33/27) is usually closer. Example: Najentus: Wow Web Stats
Teron Gorefiend kill, good example where I was close to threat capped: Wow Web Stats
If the MS warrior gets in the enhancement shaman group with me, he is usually pretty close in damage. His blood frenzy definitely brings his total raid contribution above mine. I usually sit in the enhancement/rogue group because I have Solarian's Sapphire - Items - World of Warcraft
Last edited by Natural : 07/27/07 at 4:01 PM.
Question: Why is it assumed that you need to rage dump with HS? In my 17/44 I spec imp. cleave.
Edited onPatch 2.1.3
Err quick question.
Off-hand Windfury procs, mean you get an extra attack from your Main-hand correct?
If you have something like a Sharpening Stone on your off-hand, does that mean your off-hand can no longer proc Windfury?
Off-hand Windfury procs, mean you get an extra attack from your Main-hand correct?
If you have something like a Sharpening Stone on your off-hand, does that mean your off-hand can no longer proc Windfury?
Last edited by Emeraude : 07/26/07 at 9:33 PM.
So I did my first KZ raid this evening as DPS. I've tanked up to curator fine in the past but since I'm focusing on PvP a bit more they've put me down as DPSing warrior for the guild. I need to keep my build for PvP so I'm 32/25/3 mace spec (not a huge help to my dps anyway) So I found myself on par with a hunter and an arcane mage (not fire, he was using missles and blast) who werent doing that great in the dpsing departs. Which means I wasnt either.
A lot of my gear is PvP now such as Vet stuff and High Warlord gear so as a DPS 2h Warrior what do I need to keep up half-decent DPS?
So what am I looking for gear-wise and stat-wise for dpsing with a 2hander? (I do have imp. slam which i was using after my normal swing).
A lot of my gear is PvP now such as Vet stuff and High Warlord gear so as a DPS 2h Warrior what do I need to keep up half-decent DPS?
So what am I looking for gear-wise and stat-wise for dpsing with a 2hander? (I do have imp. slam which i was using after my normal swing).
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Originally Posted by Emeraude
Err quick question.
Off-hand Windfury procs, mean you get an extra attack from your Main-hand correct? If you have something like a Sharpening Stone on your off-hand, does that mean your off-hand can no longer proc Windfury? |
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Originally Posted by Edoc
So I did my first KZ raid this evening as DPS. I've tanked up to curator fine in the past but since I'm focusing on PvP a bit more they've put me down as DPSing warrior for the guild. I need to keep my build for PvP so I'm 32/25/3 mace spec (not a huge help to my dps anyway) So I found myself on par with a hunter and an arcane mage (not fire, he was using missles and blast) who werent doing that great in the dpsing departs. Which means I wasnt either.
A lot of my gear is PvP now such as Vet stuff and High Warlord gear so as a DPS 2h Warrior what do I need to keep up half-decent DPS? So what am I looking for gear-wise and stat-wise for dpsing with a 2hander? (I do have imp. slam which i was using after my normal swing). |
Statwise in general, for 2h I tend to prefer a more crit heavy gear set than with fury, but that's sort of a feeling, no numbers to back it up. But get to hit cap! Even if you have to swap in a piece or two of leather or mail, hit rating is by far the most efficient way to improve your DPS until 8.6% or there abouts. Especially if your not running flurry, but even with it.
Edited onPatch 2.1.3
I'm just not sure how to really maximize my DPS. I've downloaded the warrior spreadsheet and tested a few things out and improved my DPS, but i still seem to be far behind some of you other guys. I can't really push past 700-900 DPS (depending on the fight), and if I'm lacking lotp/WF, I drop down more. I don't think I'm optimizing my rage usage, but i use a BT/WW cycle with hamstrings in between and heroic strike as a rage dump (or cleave when theres multiple mobs/adds). My gear, compared to the rogues, is not that great considering i've spent most of my dkp on tanking items and just recently respecced fury by request of one of our officers.
Am I choosing the wrong stats? Here is my armory: The Armory
Anyone have any advice about how to more effectively DPS? Should I stack more AP and crit? Should I focus on major agil pots, or flasks of RA? I use the str food and sharpening stones. What kind of DPS should i be doing with this kind of gear?
also, anyone notice BT crit rate being significantly lower than other attacks? my white crit rate was above 30% the other night, but BT crit rate was like 21%. That just seems ridiculously low.
Am I choosing the wrong stats? Here is my armory: The Armory
Anyone have any advice about how to more effectively DPS? Should I stack more AP and crit? Should I focus on major agil pots, or flasks of RA? I use the str food and sharpening stones. What kind of DPS should i be doing with this kind of gear?
also, anyone notice BT crit rate being significantly lower than other attacks? my white crit rate was above 30% the other night, but BT crit rate was like 21%. That just seems ridiculously low.
Last edited by Bsiddiq : 07/27/07 at 3:21 AM.
With glancing blows reduced by 15%, I would like to know who in God's name is hitting the crit cap, so why is this topic even coming up? I suppose maybe someone is thinking to themselves how their overpower just isn't efficient....
btw, I just thought I'd report back how switching to 33/28 went...
On Gruul today, with Windfury, I was between 1100 and 1400 dps, which is an increase from 17/44 for me. Not to mention the 4% from blood frenzy for the raid. I also did that much dps without pulling aggro, something I couldn't do spamming HS for max dps.
Without windfury...600-800 dps.
Seriously, WF makes this build work.
On Gruul today, with Windfury, I was between 1100 and 1400 dps, which is an increase from 17/44 for me. Not to mention the 4% from blood frenzy for the raid. I also did that much dps without pulling aggro, something I couldn't do spamming HS for max dps.
Without windfury...600-800 dps.
Seriously, WF makes this build work.
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Originally Posted by Salted
Question: Why is it assumed that you need to rage dump with HS? In my 17/44 I spec imp. cleave.
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[Warrior] Future of a DPS Warrior
Also, my comments above comparing 2H MS/BF and DW Fury assume that the DPS warrior is in a shaman group.
I dunno if this has been mentioned yet. I've checked the past 6 previous pages, but Prism of Inner Calm recently got buffed.
The old trinket reduced threat by 54 per critical strike, the new threat reduction is 150 per critical strike.
Prism of Inner Calm - Items - World of Warcraft
Crit Threat Reduction Melee - Spells - World of Warcraft
Threat Reduction - Spells - World of Warcraft
The old trinket reduced threat by 54 per critical strike, the new threat reduction is 150 per critical strike.
Prism of Inner Calm - Items - World of Warcraft
Crit Threat Reduction Melee - Spells - World of Warcraft
Threat Reduction - Spells - World of Warcraft
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Originally Posted by Emeraude
Err quick question.
Off-hand Windfury procs, mean you get an extra attack from your Main-hand correct? If you have something like a Sharpening Stone on your off-hand, does that mean your off-hand can no longer proc Windfury? |
@Natural, How in the HELL did you do 1500 DPS on Anetheron?!? Our gear is very very similar, but you are doing close to double my damage somehow.
Were you buffed like mad? food/flask/sharpening stone/3 pally buffs/enhancement shaman?
Does anetheron have extremely low armor?
Is there something you are able to cleave/WW the crap out of? (doesn't look like it from the logs)
Were you buffed like mad? food/flask/sharpening stone/3 pally buffs/enhancement shaman?
Does anetheron have extremely low armor?
Is there something you are able to cleave/WW the crap out of? (doesn't look like it from the logs)
yeah Natural, what is your AP like in raids that allows your average white hit to be 632? it looks like you were running without a bm hunter and a feral druid in your group, but had a shaman (enh maybe? unleashed rage is only shown as being gained once) and a ret paladin.
My average hits are like 330ish using a 2.6 and 1.5 speed weapon, just like him. Food, flask, sharpening stone, enhancement shammy...maybe CoW on the boss on top of FF and sunder....still, his average hit is double what mine is.
Edited onPatch 2.1.3
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Originally Posted by Calgar
@Natural, How in the HELL did you do 1500 DPS on Anetheron?!? Our gear is very very similar, but you are doing close to double my damage somehow.
Were you buffed like mad? food/flask/sharpening stone/3 pally buffs/enhancement shaman? Does anetheron have extremely low armor? Is there something you are able to cleave/WW the crap out of? (doesn't look like it from the logs) |
I'm not sure how much armor Anetheron has. We probably used CoR on that fight, since ranged is usually focusing on the adds. All of my damage was against Anetheron (no multi-target cleaves or whirlwinds).
Also, I don't think I was slept at all that fight, which makes a big difference. We also used Bloodlust on the boss since we had no problems keeping up with the trash waves. We had great raid DPS overall, which results in a fast kill where bloodlust/deathwish/recklessness playing a larger factor in total DPS.
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Originally Posted by Calgar
My average hits are like 330ish using a 2.6 and 1.5 speed weapon, just like him. Food, flask, sharpening stone, enhancement shammy...maybe CoW on the boss on top of FF and sunder....still, his average hit is double what mine is.
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For this kill I was still using a netherbane (2.6) in my offhand. I only recently picked up the swiftsteel mace.
Here's our latest Gorefiend kill. I still managed 1414 DPS, but my average white hit was 391 using weapon speeds 2.6/1.5 (closer to your expectations).
Wow Web Stats
Edit: Note: Two bloodlusts. Our Enh shaman was the first to be marked for death, so he used bloodlust and I stole the shaman out of the MT group afterwards =)
Last edited by Natural : 07/27/07 at 4:52 PM.
Edited onPatch 2.1.3
(cleaned up double post, remove)
Last edited by Natural : 07/27/07 at 4:51 PM.
Edited onPatch 2.1.3
(cleaned up double post, remove)
Last edited by Natural : 07/27/07 at 4:52 PM.
At the risk of repetition, the little "speech bubble" on the bottom right of each post allows you to multi-quote in a single message.
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Originally Posted by Llilyth
Because using Cleave to dump rage is even worse than using Heroic Strike. Cleave has higher Threat per Damage than Heroic Strike. So if Hamstring is not dumping your rage fast enough (and it usually isn't), Heroic Strike is your only option.
[Warrior] Future of a DPS Warrior Also, my comments above comparing 2H MS/BF and DW Fury assume that the DPS warrior is in a shaman group. |
From what I can see and even though it feels kind of wrong since you can end up with a full rage bar at times with it, the best thing to do when close to getting aggro is to use all your abilities on the GCD and dump as much excessive rage with HS as you can without going over the limit.
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Originally Posted by Llilyth
Because using Cleave to dump rage is even worse than using Heroic Strike. Cleave has higher Threat per Damage than Heroic Strike. So if Hamstring is not dumping your rage fast enough (and it usually isn't), Heroic Strike is your only option.
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I guess a lower rank of Hamstring would work, but I'm not sure how you make a macro for a lower ranked Hamstring (if it's even possible).
Sorry if it has been mentioned already.
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Originally Posted by viji
Well isn't hamstring a even worse rage dumper? According to wowwiki it adds 181 Bonus Threat, Hamstring, while Heroic Strike adds 196 Bonus Threat, Heroic Strike.
I guess a lower rank of Hamstring would work, but I'm not sure how you make a macro for a lower ranked Hamstring (if it's even possible). Sorry if it has been mentioned already. |
hamstrings extra damage is +63 before armor red + 0.2 * your average mainhand damage from windfury totem.
hamstring also gives extra chances to proc flurry, trinkets, weapons.
And Hamstring also isn't a next-attack ability so you can use Hamstring and HS at the same time.
Does anyone know if Harmstring's extra threat is only applied if the 'Harmstring' debuff is or everytime you deal damage with Harmstring?
I think both versions are theoretically possible.
I think both versions are theoretically possible.
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Originally Posted by Bsiddiq
yeah Natural, what is your AP like in raids that allows your average white hit to be 632? it looks like you were running without a bm hunter and a feral druid in your group, but had a shaman (enh maybe? unleashed rage is only shown as being gained once) and a ret paladin.
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After reading several pages of this, I got to thinking about what I can do with the DPS warrior that our guild runs. Unlike many of you, he seems to have trouble being competitive DPSwise. We have killed Magtheridon, and we have Gruul on farm, and he is wearing Kara/Heroic gear. He has tried DW, and 2h specs, neither to much avail. I will admit, however, that I did not have him grouped with a shaman for his 2h spec, as we have only two in the guild, and one (myself) is speced elemental. I am going to make a much stronger effort to keep our resto shaman with the melee group for WF after reading some very convincing arguments here.
Now, onto the true issue, this warrior. The easy answer is replace him, but that is not the answer I am looking for. He plays on a rather low FPS machine, or rather very low, so I am sure he is not keeping up with swing cycles, which seems to me to say that he could not do a 2h build very well. Aside from optimizing his group makeup with a shaman, what should I be looking for as a raid leader to help him perform? His biggest issue is topping threat WAY too early; (says to me he is using Heroic Strike too much, but could I be oversimplifying this?) He ends up ending fights that he should be doing well in the middle range dpswise (8-10, around our lower hunter and moonkin.)
Now, onto the true issue, this warrior. The easy answer is replace him, but that is not the answer I am looking for. He plays on a rather low FPS machine, or rather very low, so I am sure he is not keeping up with swing cycles, which seems to me to say that he could not do a 2h build very well. Aside from optimizing his group makeup with a shaman, what should I be looking for as a raid leader to help him perform? His biggest issue is topping threat WAY too early; (says to me he is using Heroic Strike too much, but could I be oversimplifying this?) He ends up ending fights that he should be doing well in the middle range dpswise (8-10, around our lower hunter and moonkin.)
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Originally Posted by Moshne
Now, onto the true issue, this warrior. The easy answer is replace him, but that is not the answer I am looking for. He plays on a rather low FPS machine, or rather very low, so I am sure he is not keeping up with swing cycles, which seems to me to say that he could not do a 2h build very well. Aside from optimizing his group makeup with a shaman, what should I be looking for as a raid leader to help him perform? His biggest issue is topping threat WAY too early; (says to me he is using Heroic Strike too much, but could I be oversimplifying this?) He ends up ending fights that he should be doing well in the middle range dpswise (8-10, around our lower hunter and moonkin.) |
I used to have problems regarding 'Keeping up' with the rest of the DPS classes in my guild. Dual wield is extremely gear dependent, so as time went on I found that I started to keep up. I found WWS parses to help a lot too. I looked at other well known DPS Warriors cycles, and talked to some from my server to see what they were doing differently. Turns out I was using Cleave over Heroic Strike the majority of the time, and not using Hamstring enough. A good group set up is always handy (We usually have Me, Feral Druid, BM Hunter, Rogue, Rogue or Shaman if it is melee friendly).
If you run Paladin light, I found that by taking Blessing of Salvation over other blessings allows me to pretty much go all out on the majority of encounters, except ones with certain mechanics (Voidreaver and Gruul. And even on Gruul, I just tend to 'chill' for the first growth or so).
As a raid leader, I would have a little talk with him and tell him to start doing some decent damage, or there is other, better DPS that can take his slot. Point him to threads here, WWS parses (Even use it yourself to have a look), and make sure his gear is right for DPS (Gemmed and enchanted correctly, priority on the correct stats etc). Hope this helps.
If you run Paladin light, I found that by taking Blessing of Salvation over other blessings allows me to pretty much go all out on the majority of encounters, except ones with certain mechanics (Voidreaver and Gruul. And even on Gruul, I just tend to 'chill' for the first growth or so).
As a raid leader, I would have a little talk with him and tell him to start doing some decent damage, or there is other, better DPS that can take his slot. Point him to threads here, WWS parses (Even use it yourself to have a look), and make sure his gear is right for DPS (Gemmed and enchanted correctly, priority on the correct stats etc). Hope this helps.
Both of your posts are helpful. I know he is receptive to change, almost too receptive (he tends to take any n00bs suggesting seriously, hence why I want some evidence before I push him one direction or the other.) I will definitely take a look into WWS. I think a lot of it is just the wrong damage cycle, as he complains about rage, and his build is similar to others I've seen here. Most here are saying they have more rage than they can use with similar gear, so that leads to a bad cycle imo.
EDIT: To the above post, our tanks do have threat issues, that is something I am working with at the same time, but that is definately a discussion for another forum, one I am looking at as well.
EDIT: To the above post, our tanks do have threat issues, that is something I am working with at the same time, but that is definately a discussion for another forum, one I am looking at as well.
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Originally Posted by ikillyouheal
If the shaman keeps 'critting' before the Unleased Rage runs out, it wont ever wear off, and will therefore be unable to be added twice.
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Originally Posted by Moshne
Both of your posts are helpful. I know he is receptive to change, almost too receptive (he tends to take any n00bs suggesting seriously, hence why I want some evidence before I push him one direction or the other.) I will definitely take a look into WWS. I think a lot of it is just the wrong damage cycle, as he complains about rage, and his build is similar to others I've seen here. Most here are saying they have more rage than they can use with similar gear, so that leads to a bad cycle imo.
EDIT: To the above post, our tanks do have threat issues, that is something I am working with at the same time, but that is definately a discussion for another forum, one I am looking at as well. |
For the tanks, have them drop avoidance(I know most tanks will spit on me for saying this), We used to have a MT that really stacked avoidance to the max, the result was that even our mages/rogues got really threatcapped, I could barely autoswing. Good thing he quitted playing(I hope you dont read this -.-), and now our new tanks stack stamina, and as a result the raid-dps has gone up alot(For some fights we use ferals for better TPS).
You could always try throwing an extra shaman to the tanks for more TPS.
Offhand speed
I'm currently MS, but I would like to respec to fury after getting the arena 1h swords.
Many warriors use a fast offhand, and I wonder why. I just can't see any advantage of a fast offhand weapon over a slow one. But maybe I'm wrong, and thats what I'd like to know. Several points came to my mind:
-Rage generation is normalized.
-Unbridled Wrath is normalized, and I'm not sure if I should skill it anyway (imp demo)
-Afaik a fast off-hand would take more of the flurry swings and therefore I would deal slightly less damage altogether.
-From what I read in other threads most procs follow a ppm mechanic. I would enchant the offhand with 20str or mongoose and I plan to pick up dragonspine trophy and tsunami talisman(hourglass till then), other than that mongoose on the main. Do those trinkets/enchants profit from a fast offhand? As far as I understand PPM, it means speed doens't make a difference. Is that correct?
- We don't have a melee shaman right now, but I hope we will get one soon. So what about wf? Offhand hits don't proc wf, so slow offhand should be no problem.
-Slower offhand also means less swings without heroic strike, hence better hit/swing (but less rage? HS hits dont give you any rage, right? I also dont know if there can be HS effect on offhand swing anyway). Also when HS spamming, I deal less HS overall and so less aggro with a slow offhand(if HS works that way). I'm most uncertain about this point.
-Less offhand strikes also means less offhand crits, so more bleed damage from deep wounds if lucky (ok, thats really not much, i know^^)
-Our guild is far from defeating kael'thas, so i would stick with those arena swords for quite a while.
So is a slow offhand better? And if it is, is it worth the effort paying double arena points for the slow sword?
Any help greately appreciated ;-)
Many warriors use a fast offhand, and I wonder why. I just can't see any advantage of a fast offhand weapon over a slow one. But maybe I'm wrong, and thats what I'd like to know. Several points came to my mind:
-Rage generation is normalized.
-Unbridled Wrath is normalized, and I'm not sure if I should skill it anyway (imp demo)
-Afaik a fast off-hand would take more of the flurry swings and therefore I would deal slightly less damage altogether.
-From what I read in other threads most procs follow a ppm mechanic. I would enchant the offhand with 20str or mongoose and I plan to pick up dragonspine trophy and tsunami talisman(hourglass till then), other than that mongoose on the main. Do those trinkets/enchants profit from a fast offhand? As far as I understand PPM, it means speed doens't make a difference. Is that correct?
- We don't have a melee shaman right now, but I hope we will get one soon. So what about wf? Offhand hits don't proc wf, so slow offhand should be no problem.
-Slower offhand also means less swings without heroic strike, hence better hit/swing (but less rage? HS hits dont give you any rage, right? I also dont know if there can be HS effect on offhand swing anyway). Also when HS spamming, I deal less HS overall and so less aggro with a slow offhand(if HS works that way). I'm most uncertain about this point.
-Less offhand strikes also means less offhand crits, so more bleed damage from deep wounds if lucky (ok, thats really not much, i know^^)
-Our guild is far from defeating kael'thas, so i would stick with those arena swords for quite a while.
So is a slow offhand better? And if it is, is it worth the effort paying double arena points for the slow sword?
Any help greately appreciated ;-)
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Originally Posted by Lucilla
So is a slow offhand better? And if it is, is it worth the effort paying double arena points for the slow sword?
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In the case of arena weapons, even if slower was slightly better, unless your arena team rakes in tons of points I'd still say go for the faster offhand. Since faster weapons seem to provide slightly better DPS returns, the arena offhand provides a superior weapon at half the cost, a double win.
Anecdotally, I noticed a marked improvement in my DPS when I upgraded my offhand from a vindicator's brand to an Emerald Ripper. I don't have any solid numbers, but my damage was higher than I thought the 6 DPS upgrade to an offhand should have improved it by.
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Originally Posted by Lucilla
-Afaik a fast off-hand would take more of the flurry swings and therefore I would deal slightly less damage altogether.
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Originally Posted by Scyne
it take more charges but also proc more flurry so it doesnt matter for flurry if you use a slow or a fast OH.
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Another thing to consider is that if your MH and OH have the same delay, I believe you actually gain 4 hasted swings from flurry instead of 3. Someone please correct me if I am wrong. Edit: apparently there is already a discussion about using equal weapon speeds for improved flurry uptime: [Melee Combat] How does Flurry Work?
I think the ideal scenario is to use equal-speed slow weapons in your MH and OH up until 19%. At 19%, switch in an equally-awesome fast OH to improve your ability to spam execute. Admittedly, it's ideal to expect that someone will have two OH weapons of equal quality but different delay.
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Originally Posted by Lucilla
-Unbridled Wrath is normalized, and I'm not sure if I should skill it anyway (imp demo)
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Originally Posted by Darkrenown
Speaking of UBW, do we know the exact proc % of it now?
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152 ticks in 280 seconds = 32.5 ppm
100 ticks in 200 seconds = 30 ppm
25 ticks in 40 seconds = 37.5 ppm
I'd approximate that UBW is around 30-35 rage per minute.
I decided to try out a 20/41 2H DPS build last night. It was hard to get any real numbers out of last night because I was both trying to make new macros, learn when to use my new skills, and I didn't have a feral druid or a shaman.
My first impression is rampage really isn't that good (not surprising!). Now it might be because I was rage starved without LotP or WF. But inbtween weaving slams if I did have enough rage for something else it was either a choice of BT/WW or Rampage. It just didn't seem like Rampage was worth the spot in my global cooldown.
At first I tried getting Rampage up fast, and keeping it up. But by the end of the night I realized that I was missing too many BT/WW cooldowns doing this. The only time I can see using Rampage is where my cycle goes slam-BT-slam-WW-slam-BT-slam-(rampage if BS doesn't need a refresh). Seems like Rampage up-time is not going to be very good, and a pain to keep up. Of course Rampage isn't really considered on of the most fun talents in the game.
I was wondering if a 21/40 build would be better. I decided to go 5/5 2H mastery. I could put a point into impale, which is about a 1.0%-1.5% DPS boost. I wouldn't be surprised if Rampage was a net DPS lose for me last night how I was trying to use it
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My first impression is rampage really isn't that good (not surprising!). Now it might be because I was rage starved without LotP or WF. But inbtween weaving slams if I did have enough rage for something else it was either a choice of BT/WW or Rampage. It just didn't seem like Rampage was worth the spot in my global cooldown.
At first I tried getting Rampage up fast, and keeping it up. But by the end of the night I realized that I was missing too many BT/WW cooldowns doing this. The only time I can see using Rampage is where my cycle goes slam-BT-slam-WW-slam-BT-slam-(rampage if BS doesn't need a refresh). Seems like Rampage up-time is not going to be very good, and a pain to keep up. Of course Rampage isn't really considered on of the most fun talents in the game.
I was wondering if a 21/40 build would be better. I decided to go 5/5 2H mastery. I could put a point into impale, which is about a 1.0%-1.5% DPS boost. I wouldn't be surprised if Rampage was a net DPS lose for me last night how I was trying to use it
.yeah Natural, what is your AP like in raids that allows your average white hit to be 632? it looks like you were running without a bm hunter and a feral druid in your group, but had a shaman (enh maybe? unleashed rage is only shown as being gained once) and a ret paladin.
My average hits are like 330ish using a 2.6 and 1.5 speed weapon, just like him. Food, flask, sharpening stone, enhancement shammy...maybe CoW on the boss on top of FF and sunder....still, his average hit is double what mine is.
Edited onPatch 2.1.3
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Originally Posted by Calgar
@Natural, How in the HELL did you do 1500 DPS on Anetheron?!? Our gear is very very similar, but you are doing close to double my damage somehow.
Were you buffed like mad? food/flask/sharpening stone/3 pally buffs/enhancement shaman? Does anetheron have extremely low armor? Is there something you are able to cleave/WW the crap out of? (doesn't look like it from the logs) |
I'm not sure how much armor Anetheron has. We probably used CoR on that fight, since ranged is usually focusing on the adds. All of my damage was against Anetheron (no multi-target cleaves or whirlwinds).
Also, I don't think I was slept at all that fight, which makes a big difference. We also used Bloodlust on the boss since we had no problems keeping up with the trash waves. We had great raid DPS overall, which results in a fast kill where bloodlust/deathwish/recklessness playing a larger factor in total DPS.
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Originally Posted by Calgar
My average hits are like 330ish using a 2.6 and 1.5 speed weapon, just like him. Food, flask, sharpening stone, enhancement shammy...maybe CoW on the boss on top of FF and sunder....still, his average hit is double what mine is.
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For this kill I was still using a netherbane (2.6) in my offhand. I only recently picked up the swiftsteel mace.
Here's our latest Gorefiend kill. I still managed 1414 DPS, but my average white hit was 391 using weapon speeds 2.6/1.5 (closer to your expectations).
Wow Web Stats
Edit: Note: Two bloodlusts. Our Enh shaman was the first to be marked for death, so he used bloodlust and I stole the shaman out of the MT group afterwards =)
Last edited by Natural : 07/27/07 at 4:52 PM.
Edited onPatch 2.1.3
(cleaned up double post, remove)
Last edited by Natural : 07/27/07 at 4:51 PM.
Edited onPatch 2.1.3
(cleaned up double post, remove)
Last edited by Natural : 07/27/07 at 4:52 PM.
At the risk of repetition, the little "speech bubble" on the bottom right of each post allows you to multi-quote in a single message.
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Originally Posted by Llilyth
Because using Cleave to dump rage is even worse than using Heroic Strike. Cleave has higher Threat per Damage than Heroic Strike. So if Hamstring is not dumping your rage fast enough (and it usually isn't), Heroic Strike is your only option.
[Warrior] Future of a DPS Warrior Also, my comments above comparing 2H MS/BF and DW Fury assume that the DPS warrior is in a shaman group. |
From what I can see and even though it feels kind of wrong since you can end up with a full rage bar at times with it, the best thing to do when close to getting aggro is to use all your abilities on the GCD and dump as much excessive rage with HS as you can without going over the limit.
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Originally Posted by Llilyth
Because using Cleave to dump rage is even worse than using Heroic Strike. Cleave has higher Threat per Damage than Heroic Strike. So if Hamstring is not dumping your rage fast enough (and it usually isn't), Heroic Strike is your only option.
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I guess a lower rank of Hamstring would work, but I'm not sure how you make a macro for a lower ranked Hamstring (if it's even possible).
Sorry if it has been mentioned already.
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Originally Posted by viji
Well isn't hamstring a even worse rage dumper? According to wowwiki it adds 181 Bonus Threat, Hamstring, while Heroic Strike adds 196 Bonus Threat, Heroic Strike.
I guess a lower rank of Hamstring would work, but I'm not sure how you make a macro for a lower ranked Hamstring (if it's even possible). Sorry if it has been mentioned already. |
hamstrings extra damage is +63 before armor red + 0.2 * your average mainhand damage from windfury totem.
hamstring also gives extra chances to proc flurry, trinkets, weapons.
And Hamstring also isn't a next-attack ability so you can use Hamstring and HS at the same time.
Does anyone know if Harmstring's extra threat is only applied if the 'Harmstring' debuff is or everytime you deal damage with Harmstring?
I think both versions are theoretically possible.
I think both versions are theoretically possible.
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Originally Posted by Bsiddiq
yeah Natural, what is your AP like in raids that allows your average white hit to be 632? it looks like you were running without a bm hunter and a feral druid in your group, but had a shaman (enh maybe? unleashed rage is only shown as being gained once) and a ret paladin.
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After reading several pages of this, I got to thinking about what I can do with the DPS warrior that our guild runs. Unlike many of you, he seems to have trouble being competitive DPSwise. We have killed Magtheridon, and we have Gruul on farm, and he is wearing Kara/Heroic gear. He has tried DW, and 2h specs, neither to much avail. I will admit, however, that I did not have him grouped with a shaman for his 2h spec, as we have only two in the guild, and one (myself) is speced elemental. I am going to make a much stronger effort to keep our resto shaman with the melee group for WF after reading some very convincing arguments here.
Now, onto the true issue, this warrior. The easy answer is replace him, but that is not the answer I am looking for. He plays on a rather low FPS machine, or rather very low, so I am sure he is not keeping up with swing cycles, which seems to me to say that he could not do a 2h build very well. Aside from optimizing his group makeup with a shaman, what should I be looking for as a raid leader to help him perform? His biggest issue is topping threat WAY too early; (says to me he is using Heroic Strike too much, but could I be oversimplifying this?) He ends up ending fights that he should be doing well in the middle range dpswise (8-10, around our lower hunter and moonkin.)
Now, onto the true issue, this warrior. The easy answer is replace him, but that is not the answer I am looking for. He plays on a rather low FPS machine, or rather very low, so I am sure he is not keeping up with swing cycles, which seems to me to say that he could not do a 2h build very well. Aside from optimizing his group makeup with a shaman, what should I be looking for as a raid leader to help him perform? His biggest issue is topping threat WAY too early; (says to me he is using Heroic Strike too much, but could I be oversimplifying this?) He ends up ending fights that he should be doing well in the middle range dpswise (8-10, around our lower hunter and moonkin.)
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Originally Posted by Moshne
Now, onto the true issue, this warrior. The easy answer is replace him, but that is not the answer I am looking for. He plays on a rather low FPS machine, or rather very low, so I am sure he is not keeping up with swing cycles, which seems to me to say that he could not do a 2h build very well. Aside from optimizing his group makeup with a shaman, what should I be looking for as a raid leader to help him perform? His biggest issue is topping threat WAY too early; (says to me he is using Heroic Strike too much, but could I be oversimplifying this?) He ends up ending fights that he should be doing well in the middle range dpswise (8-10, around our lower hunter and moonkin.) |
I used to have problems regarding 'Keeping up' with the rest of the DPS classes in my guild. Dual wield is extremely gear dependent, so as time went on I found that I started to keep up. I found WWS parses to help a lot too. I looked at other well known DPS Warriors cycles, and talked to some from my server to see what they were doing differently. Turns out I was using Cleave over Heroic Strike the majority of the time, and not using Hamstring enough. A good group set up is always handy (We usually have Me, Feral Druid, BM Hunter, Rogue, Rogue or Shaman if it is melee friendly).
If you run Paladin light, I found that by taking Blessing of Salvation over other blessings allows me to pretty much go all out on the majority of encounters, except ones with certain mechanics (Voidreaver and Gruul. And even on Gruul, I just tend to 'chill' for the first growth or so).
As a raid leader, I would have a little talk with him and tell him to start doing some decent damage, or there is other, better DPS that can take his slot. Point him to threads here, WWS parses (Even use it yourself to have a look), and make sure his gear is right for DPS (Gemmed and enchanted correctly, priority on the correct stats etc). Hope this helps.
If you run Paladin light, I found that by taking Blessing of Salvation over other blessings allows me to pretty much go all out on the majority of encounters, except ones with certain mechanics (Voidreaver and Gruul. And even on Gruul, I just tend to 'chill' for the first growth or so).
As a raid leader, I would have a little talk with him and tell him to start doing some decent damage, or there is other, better DPS that can take his slot. Point him to threads here, WWS parses (Even use it yourself to have a look), and make sure his gear is right for DPS (Gemmed and enchanted correctly, priority on the correct stats etc). Hope this helps.
Both of your posts are helpful. I know he is receptive to change, almost too receptive (he tends to take any n00bs suggesting seriously, hence why I want some evidence before I push him one direction or the other.) I will definitely take a look into WWS. I think a lot of it is just the wrong damage cycle, as he complains about rage, and his build is similar to others I've seen here. Most here are saying they have more rage than they can use with similar gear, so that leads to a bad cycle imo.
EDIT: To the above post, our tanks do have threat issues, that is something I am working with at the same time, but that is definately a discussion for another forum, one I am looking at as well.
EDIT: To the above post, our tanks do have threat issues, that is something I am working with at the same time, but that is definately a discussion for another forum, one I am looking at as well.
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Originally Posted by ikillyouheal
If the shaman keeps 'critting' before the Unleased Rage runs out, it wont ever wear off, and will therefore be unable to be added twice.
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Originally Posted by Moshne
Both of your posts are helpful. I know he is receptive to change, almost too receptive (he tends to take any n00bs suggesting seriously, hence why I want some evidence before I push him one direction or the other.) I will definitely take a look into WWS. I think a lot of it is just the wrong damage cycle, as he complains about rage, and his build is similar to others I've seen here. Most here are saying they have more rage than they can use with similar gear, so that leads to a bad cycle imo.
EDIT: To the above post, our tanks do have threat issues, that is something I am working with at the same time, but that is definately a discussion for another forum, one I am looking at as well. |
For the tanks, have them drop avoidance(I know most tanks will spit on me for saying this), We used to have a MT that really stacked avoidance to the max, the result was that even our mages/rogues got really threatcapped, I could barely autoswing. Good thing he quitted playing(I hope you dont read this -.-), and now our new tanks stack stamina, and as a result the raid-dps has gone up alot(For some fights we use ferals for better TPS).
You could always try throwing an extra shaman to the tanks for more TPS.
Offhand speed
I'm currently MS, but I would like to respec to fury after getting the arena 1h swords.
Many warriors use a fast offhand, and I wonder why. I just can't see any advantage of a fast offhand weapon over a slow one. But maybe I'm wrong, and thats what I'd like to know. Several points came to my mind:
-Rage generation is normalized.
-Unbridled Wrath is normalized, and I'm not sure if I should skill it anyway (imp demo)
-Afaik a fast off-hand would take more of the flurry swings and therefore I would deal slightly less damage altogether.
-From what I read in other threads most procs follow a ppm mechanic. I would enchant the offhand with 20str or mongoose and I plan to pick up dragonspine trophy and tsunami talisman(hourglass till then), other than that mongoose on the main. Do those trinkets/enchants profit from a fast offhand? As far as I understand PPM, it means speed doens't make a difference. Is that correct?
- We don't have a melee shaman right now, but I hope we will get one soon. So what about wf? Offhand hits don't proc wf, so slow offhand should be no problem.
-Slower offhand also means less swings without heroic strike, hence better hit/swing (but less rage? HS hits dont give you any rage, right? I also dont know if there can be HS effect on offhand swing anyway). Also when HS spamming, I deal less HS overall and so less aggro with a slow offhand(if HS works that way). I'm most uncertain about this point.
-Less offhand strikes also means less offhand crits, so more bleed damage from deep wounds if lucky (ok, thats really not much, i know^^)
-Our guild is far from defeating kael'thas, so i would stick with those arena swords for quite a while.
So is a slow offhand better? And if it is, is it worth the effort paying double arena points for the slow sword?
Any help greately appreciated ;-)
Many warriors use a fast offhand, and I wonder why. I just can't see any advantage of a fast offhand weapon over a slow one. But maybe I'm wrong, and thats what I'd like to know. Several points came to my mind:
-Rage generation is normalized.
-Unbridled Wrath is normalized, and I'm not sure if I should skill it anyway (imp demo)
-Afaik a fast off-hand would take more of the flurry swings and therefore I would deal slightly less damage altogether.
-From what I read in other threads most procs follow a ppm mechanic. I would enchant the offhand with 20str or mongoose and I plan to pick up dragonspine trophy and tsunami talisman(hourglass till then), other than that mongoose on the main. Do those trinkets/enchants profit from a fast offhand? As far as I understand PPM, it means speed doens't make a difference. Is that correct?
- We don't have a melee shaman right now, but I hope we will get one soon. So what about wf? Offhand hits don't proc wf, so slow offhand should be no problem.
-Slower offhand also means less swings without heroic strike, hence better hit/swing (but less rage? HS hits dont give you any rage, right? I also dont know if there can be HS effect on offhand swing anyway). Also when HS spamming, I deal less HS overall and so less aggro with a slow offhand(if HS works that way). I'm most uncertain about this point.
-Less offhand strikes also means less offhand crits, so more bleed damage from deep wounds if lucky (ok, thats really not much, i know^^)
-Our guild is far from defeating kael'thas, so i would stick with those arena swords for quite a while.
So is a slow offhand better? And if it is, is it worth the effort paying double arena points for the slow sword?
Any help greately appreciated ;-)
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Originally Posted by Lucilla
So is a slow offhand better? And if it is, is it worth the effort paying double arena points for the slow sword?
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In the case of arena weapons, even if slower was slightly better, unless your arena team rakes in tons of points I'd still say go for the faster offhand. Since faster weapons seem to provide slightly better DPS returns, the arena offhand provides a superior weapon at half the cost, a double win.
Anecdotally, I noticed a marked improvement in my DPS when I upgraded my offhand from a vindicator's brand to an Emerald Ripper. I don't have any solid numbers, but my damage was higher than I thought the 6 DPS upgrade to an offhand should have improved it by.
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Originally Posted by Lucilla
-Afaik a fast off-hand would take more of the flurry swings and therefore I would deal slightly less damage altogether.
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Originally Posted by Scyne
it take more charges but also proc more flurry so it doesnt matter for flurry if you use a slow or a fast OH.
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Another thing to consider is that if your MH and OH have the same delay, I believe you actually gain 4 hasted swings from flurry instead of 3. Someone please correct me if I am wrong. Edit: apparently there is already a discussion about using equal weapon speeds for improved flurry uptime: [Melee Combat] How does Flurry Work?
I think the ideal scenario is to use equal-speed slow weapons in your MH and OH up until 19%. At 19%, switch in an equally-awesome fast OH to improve your ability to spam execute. Admittedly, it's ideal to expect that someone will have two OH weapons of equal quality but different delay.
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Originally Posted by Lucilla
-Unbridled Wrath is normalized, and I'm not sure if I should skill it anyway (imp demo)
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Originally Posted by Darkrenown
Speaking of UBW, do we know the exact proc % of it now?
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152 ticks in 280 seconds = 32.5 ppm
100 ticks in 200 seconds = 30 ppm
25 ticks in 40 seconds = 37.5 ppm
I'd approximate that UBW is around 30-35 rage per minute.
I decided to try out a 20/41 2H DPS build last night. It was hard to get any real numbers out of last night because I was both trying to make new macros, learn when to use my new skills, and I didn't have a feral druid or a shaman.
My first impression is rampage really isn't that good (not surprising!). Now it might be because I was rage starved without LotP or WF. But inbtween weaving slams if I did have enough rage for something else it was either a choice of BT/WW or Rampage. It just didn't seem like Rampage was worth the spot in my global cooldown.
At first I tried getting Rampage up fast, and keeping it up. But by the end of the night I realized that I was missing too many BT/WW cooldowns doing this. The only time I can see using Rampage is where my cycle goes slam-BT-slam-WW-slam-BT-slam-(rampage if BS doesn't need a refresh). Seems like Rampage up-time is not going to be very good, and a pain to keep up. Of course Rampage isn't really considered on of the most fun talents in the game.
I was wondering if a 21/40 build would be better. I decided to go 5/5 2H mastery. I could put a point into impale, which is about a 1.0%-1.5% DPS boost. I wouldn't be surprised if Rampage was a net DPS lose for me last night how I was trying to use it.
My first impression is rampage really isn't that good (not surprising!). Now it might be because I was rage starved without LotP or WF. But inbtween weaving slams if I did have enough rage for something else it was either a choice of BT/WW or Rampage. It just didn't seem like Rampage was worth the spot in my global cooldown.
At first I tried getting Rampage up fast, and keeping it up. But by the end of the night I realized that I was missing too many BT/WW cooldowns doing this. The only time I can see using Rampage is where my cycle goes slam-BT-slam-WW-slam-BT-slam-(rampage if BS doesn't need a refresh). Seems like Rampage up-time is not going to be very good, and a pain to keep up. Of course Rampage isn't really considered on of the most fun talents in the game.
I was wondering if a 21/40 build would be better. I decided to go 5/5 2H mastery. I could put a point into impale, which is about a 1.0%-1.5% DPS boost. I wouldn't be surprised if Rampage was a net DPS lose for me last night how I was trying to use it
.Edited onPatch 2.1.3
Rampage really is not good for a 41 point talent (and less so for 2h fury) but if you are going to put 41 points in Fury I guess its at least worth taking.
Its a really weird talent though. Costs 20 Rage, lasts 30s but you have to get a crit to activate it and then hit the mob to boost its power. And its on the GCD. Way overly complicated IMO.
edit: 'really is not good' is too strong of criticism here. 250 AP IS really good for 1 talent point. I just think the mechanics of maintaining the 250AP are overly complicated.
Its a really weird talent though. Costs 20 Rage, lasts 30s but you have to get a crit to activate it and then hit the mob to boost its power. And its on the GCD. Way overly complicated IMO.
edit: 'really is not good' is too strong of criticism here. 250 AP IS really good for 1 talent point. I just think the mechanics of maintaining the 250AP are overly complicated.
Last edited by Hozz : 07/31/07 at 4:37 PM. Reason: Clarity/Revision
When you're sitting on 30%+ Crit it's very very easy to keep up as DW.
Much harder as 2-hand fury though.
Much harder as 2-hand fury though.
Hi guys, just wanted to post my 2 cents on this topic as it's been the subject of some pretty hot discussion on my guild as well.
I went ahead and took the plunge into 33/28 (from 20/41) a few days ago, and here are my findings based on a fairly solid DPS-intensive encounter: Teron Gorefiend.
As posted at WoW Forums -> MS- The new DPS spec?
So here it is - My breakdown of 33/28 performance in a high-end raiding scenario
==============================================================
I was skeptical of the performance of this spec originally, wary that dropping 10% AP, Bloodthirst, and 2/5 Flurry might come back to bite me in the ass. Very quickly I found out that my presumptions were wrong.
This post mostly revolves around my most recent raid, notably our kill of Teron Gorefiend.
Skill Breakdown
===============
For the first 80% I simply used the normal slam rotation we've become familiar with, breaking from it a handful of times to keep Demo Shout up on Gorefiend. Last 20% was the usual Reck/DW/Execute spam.
Damage Breakdown
===============
http://www.thinkmaclaren.com/imagedump/meter.gif
http://www.thinkmaclaren.com/imagedump/meter2.gif
I apolgize for this being broken into two images, I wanted to be able to include the 1st place DPS and unless I've overlooked it these two meters DO show the same numbers for all other places.
1) Shaitain - Combat Swords Rogue - 472,599
2) Nalladuril - Combat Swords Rogue - 404,249
3) SSlanfear - DW Fury Warrior - 393,654
4) Kiranat (Me) - 33/28 Warrior - 380,525
...
6) Zaidel - Enhancement Shaman - 347,261
...
9) Iccurus - Combat Daggers Rogue - 293,658
We also have a BM hunter, however if I remember correctly he was one of the first two people to get Shadow of Death.
DPS Breakdown
===============
http://www.thinkmaclaren.com/imagedump/gordps.gif
Fight Length - 303 seconds (5 minutes, 3 seconds)
My Damage - 380,525
My DPS - 1255.8
While that on it's own isn't amazing (Shaitain pulling ~ 1550 DPS) let's plug in the DPS gained by all other melee.
Blood Frenzy adds 4% physical damage taken (by the boss), so let's add that DPS to my own and get an objective scale of the DPS done by a warrior with this spec.
(((472,599 x 0.04) + (404,249 x 0.04) + (393,654 x 0.04) + (347,261 x 0.04) + (293,658 x 0.04)) + 380,525) / 303
1508 (effective) DPS
While these numbers aren't quite as amazing as high as those posted about Serida (by Crazypie, page 8) I still consider them rather impressive. Please also note that my spec and weapon are inferior to hers (mace vs sword) though obviously that is not enough to close the 200 DPS gap between us.
Conclusion
===============
While 33/28 obviously is not the end-all and be-all of DPS, it certainly brings alot to the table, especially in a well rounded DPS group and in a relatively melee heavy raid.
In this example roughly 250 DPS was added to the raid's output and my personal damage output was only just shy of that of our fury warrior.
Please feel free to post back about this, ask questions, criticize, etc... I'd like any feedback I can to help better my play style and the DPS of myself and my guild.
I went ahead and took the plunge into 33/28 (from 20/41) a few days ago, and here are my findings based on a fairly solid DPS-intensive encounter: Teron Gorefiend.
As posted at WoW Forums -> MS- The new DPS spec?
So here it is - My breakdown of 33/28 performance in a high-end raiding scenario
==============================================================
I was skeptical of the performance of this spec originally, wary that dropping 10% AP, Bloodthirst, and 2/5 Flurry might come back to bite me in the ass. Very quickly I found out that my presumptions were wrong.
This post mostly revolves around my most recent raid, notably our kill of Teron Gorefiend.
Skill Breakdown
===============
For the first 80% I simply used the normal slam rotation we've become familiar with, breaking from it a handful of times to keep Demo Shout up on Gorefiend. Last 20% was the usual Reck/DW/Execute spam.
Damage Breakdown
===============
http://www.thinkmaclaren.com/imagedump/meter.gif
http://www.thinkmaclaren.com/imagedump/meter2.gif
I apolgize for this being broken into two images, I wanted to be able to include the 1st place DPS and unless I've overlooked it these two meters DO show the same numbers for all other places.
1) Shaitain - Combat Swords Rogue - 472,599
2) Nalladuril - Combat Swords Rogue - 404,249
3) SSlanfear - DW Fury Warrior - 393,654
4) Kiranat (Me) - 33/28 Warrior - 380,525
...
6) Zaidel - Enhancement Shaman - 347,261
...
9) Iccurus - Combat Daggers Rogue - 293,658
We also have a BM hunter, however if I remember correctly he was one of the first two people to get Shadow of Death.
DPS Breakdown
===============
http://www.thinkmaclaren.com/imagedump/gordps.gif
Fight Length - 303 seconds (5 minutes, 3 seconds)
My Damage - 380,525
My DPS - 1255.8
While that on it's own isn't amazing (Shaitain pulling ~ 1550 DPS) let's plug in the DPS gained by all other melee.
Blood Frenzy adds 4% physical damage taken (by the boss), so let's add that DPS to my own and get an objective scale of the DPS done by a warrior with this spec.
(((472,599 x 0.04) + (404,249 x 0.04) + (393,654 x 0.04) + (347,261 x 0.04) + (293,658 x 0.04)) + 380,525) / 303
1508 (effective) DPS
While these numbers aren't quite as amazing as high as those posted about Serida (by Crazypie, page 8) I still consider them rather impressive. Please also note that my spec and weapon are inferior to hers (mace vs sword) though obviously that is not enough to close the 200 DPS gap between us.
Conclusion
===============
While 33/28 obviously is not the end-all and be-all of DPS, it certainly brings alot to the table, especially in a well rounded DPS group and in a relatively melee heavy raid.
In this example roughly 250 DPS was added to the raid's output and my personal damage output was only just shy of that of our fury warrior.
Please feel free to post back about this, ask questions, criticize, etc... I'd like any feedback I can to help better my play style and the DPS of myself and my guild.
Edited onPatch 2.1.3
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Originally Posted by Kiranat
In this example roughly 250 DPS was added to the raid's output and my personal damage output was only just shy of that of our fury warrior.
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If that's your Fury Warrior I must say that you shouldn't compare your DPS to his as his gear choices and total gear level aren't that good in terms of maximum DPS.
If you compare his gear to mine, you can see:
- I have 48 AP more which are (/w talents) around 22 Strength on gear
- I have 1,26% Crit more which are around 28 Crit Rating on gear
- My main hand has a 212 haste rating for 10 sec. procc equaling around 50 permanent haste rating depending on conditions given
- My trinket has a 325 haste rating for 10 sec. procc equaling around 100 permanent haste rating depending on conditions given
- My other trinket has an activateable 278 attack power für 20 sec. equaling at least a 46,3 permanent AP given the 2 minute cooldown
- He has 78 more Hit Rating
- His trinket has a 300 Attack Power for 10 sec. procc equaling around 50 permanent AP on average given the 45 second procc cooldown
For raw values I'd take my gear any day of the week, now you need to add that his weapon choice isn't very good at all as a dagger in the main hand makes your whirlwinds and overpower hit like a wet noodle and that my guild has just downed 4/6 SSC and 1/4 The Eye as opposed to yours raiding Black Temple.
@Topic: I was using a Bloodmoon and a 31/30 specc with imp. Slam for quite some time and recently(=last week) got my Dragonstrike and skilled DW Fury (that also pretty much explains my low hit atm). My damage has increased by quite a bit and, maybe even more importantly, I have much more fun playing my Warrior now. Having up all proccs in a Warrior/Rogue/Druid/Hunter/Shaman group I can get some devastating results (and a lot of aggro ;-)).
Last edited by Hidden : 08/01/07 at 3:57 AM.
Kirnat that pretty much replicates what I've found doing 33/28 but with a sword now,
This is from our Hyjal and BT Clear last week after I got cataclysms edge and went sword spec,
Boomkat is our Fury Warrior using Swiftsteel Bludgeon and Kael Mace,
Kaz'rogal: Wow Web Stats
Bloodboil: (got cratered stupid threat) Wow Web Stats
Illidan: Wow Web Stats
Anetheron: Wow Web Stats
Archimonde: Wow Web Stats
Illidari Council: (Very threat capped) Wow Web Stats
I think over these fights and most that are very melee unfriendly I held my own as a DPS'er never coming too far behind the fury and when I start picking up some T6 for armour pen I think I will be definately competing for the top warrior (might be a slog to beat our rogues)
This is from our Hyjal and BT Clear last week after I got cataclysms edge and went sword spec,
Boomkat is our Fury Warrior using Swiftsteel Bludgeon and Kael Mace,
Kaz'rogal: Wow Web Stats
Bloodboil: (got cratered stupid threat) Wow Web Stats
Illidan: Wow Web Stats
Anetheron: Wow Web Stats
Archimonde: Wow Web Stats
Illidari Council: (Very threat capped) Wow Web Stats
I think over these fights and most that are very melee unfriendly I held my own as a DPS'er never coming too far behind the fury and when I start picking up some T6 for armour pen I think I will be definately competing for the top warrior (might be a slog to beat our rogues)
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Originally Posted by Cannings
Archimonde: Wow Web Stats
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Originally Posted by ikillyouheal
Noticed your fury warrior only did a small amount of Hamstrings? And a relatively large amount of Heroic strikes, they might eat your DPS down really quick if you dont know what you're doing? Is he an experienced fury warrior or just re-specced to try it out?
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Sorry, but I have yet to see a 2h Warrior compete with a decent Fury Warrior.
Something that i have been kicking around for awhile (and something that i am about to try tonight, unless anyone here has tried it and dismissed it):
Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft
My gear / setup is ~230 hit, 31% crit, 1850 unbuffed AP (no shout). I have a fully upgraded dragonstrike, and Merciless quickblade (both mongoosed).
My idea here is that with all of the haste effects that i will be getting (DST / Abbacus / Dragonstrike / flurry / etc etc), i will be pushing that quickblade to a SUPER fast sword weapon, meaning a great increase of overall sword spec procs (since it is a static number).
From there, with the OH sword being already a ton faster than the MH, i would push that MH to an extra swing just over 1 in every 10 of its swings (which are already a ton faster due to all of the haste effects). Of course, this entire thing would be even better if dragonstrike was a sword, but i work with what i have to work with.
Anyways, just seeing if anyone has tried this with the type of setup i'm using, and if it is worth losing out on 1 second of WW, imp zerker, and rampage.
Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft
My gear / setup is ~230 hit, 31% crit, 1850 unbuffed AP (no shout). I have a fully upgraded dragonstrike, and Merciless quickblade (both mongoosed).
My idea here is that with all of the haste effects that i will be getting (DST / Abbacus / Dragonstrike / flurry / etc etc), i will be pushing that quickblade to a SUPER fast sword weapon, meaning a great increase of overall sword spec procs (since it is a static number).
From there, with the OH sword being already a ton faster than the MH, i would push that MH to an extra swing just over 1 in every 10 of its swings (which are already a ton faster due to all of the haste effects). Of course, this entire thing would be even better if dragonstrike was a sword, but i work with what i have to work with.
Anyways, just seeing if anyone has tried this with the type of setup i'm using, and if it is worth losing out on 1 second of WW, imp zerker, and rampage.
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Originally Posted by Yag
Something that i have been kicking around for awhile (and something that i am about to try tonight, unless anyone here has tried it and dismissed it):
Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft My gear / setup is ~230 hit, 31% crit, 1850 unbuffed AP (no shout). I have a fully upgraded dragonstrike, and Merciless quickblade (both mongoosed). My idea here is that with all of the haste effects that i will be getting (DST / Abbacus / Dragonstrike / flurry / etc etc), i will be pushing that quickblade to a SUPER fast sword weapon, meaning a great increase of overall sword spec procs (since it is a static number). From there, with the OH sword being already a ton faster than the MH, i would push that MH to an extra swing just over 1 in every 10 of its swings (which are already a ton faster due to all of the haste effects). Of course, this entire thing would be even better if dragonstrike was a sword, but i work with what i have to work with. Anyways, just seeing if anyone has tried this with the type of setup i'm using, and if it is worth losing out on 1 second of WW, imp zerker, and rampage. |
Tip: When you dont have Imp zerker stance, I tend to go for 2/3 in TM just to be able to do effective OP's. You might consider it instead of Imp. WW and something else.
17/44, i'm usually never close to being bottomed out on rage in raids. I just saw the possibility, and thought it was an interesting idea, and different than the standard 17/44, and thought it might bring more PvP viability / burst to the scene since in much smaller groups talents like imp zerker stance don't bring as much to the table.
unfortunately, the cookie cutter specs are generally there because that is the best way to max yourself.
unfortunately, the cookie cutter specs are generally there because that is the best way to max yourself.
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Originally Posted by ikillyouheal
I used this build untill we started doing SSC, mainly because we didnt have a shaman for melee before that point. It's a solid build if you're lacking rage, otherwise I found it rather mleh.
Tip: When you dont have Imp zerker stance, I tend to go for 2/3 in TM just to be able to do effective OP's. You might consider it instead of Imp. WW and something else. |
Maybe he's also doing Thunderclap.
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Originally Posted by Kiranat
DPS Breakdown
=============== http://www.thinkmaclaren.com/imagedump/gordps.gif Fight Length - 303 seconds (5 minutes, 3 seconds) My Damage - 380,525 My DPS - 1255.8 While that on it's own isn't amazing (Shaitain pulling ~ 1550 DPS) let's plug in the DPS gained by all other melee. Blood Frenzy adds 4% physical damage taken (by the boss), so let's add that DPS to my own and get an objective scale of the DPS done by a warrior with this spec. (((472,599 x 0.04) + (404,249 x 0.04) + (393,654 x 0.04) + (347,261 x 0.04) + (293,658 x 0.04)) + 380,525) / 303 1508 (effective) DPS While these numbers aren't quite as amazing as high as those posted about Serida (by Crazypie, page 8) I still consider them rather impressive. Please also note that my spec and weapon are inferior to hers (mace vs sword) though obviously that is not enough to close the 200 DPS gap between us. |
(Sum_others_dmg / 1.04) * 0.04 + Personal_dmg
Feel free to check my math, I found:
Sum_others_dmg = 1,911,421
Sum_others_dmg / 1.04 = 1,837,905
(Sum_others_dmg / 1.04) * 0.04 = 73,516
So total damage you're responsible for is (73,516 + 380,525). Divide by 303 to get:
1,498 (effective) dps with blood frenzy.
Not a huge difference, but you have to divide by your multiplier to get back to the base non-multiplied value and then actually calculate with the Blood Frenzy multiplier the accurate number.
Edited onPatch 2.1.3
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Originally Posted by Hidden
The Armory
If that's your Fury Warrior I must say that you shouldn't compare your DPS to his as his gear choices and total gear level aren't that good in terms of maximum DPS. If you compare his gear to mine, you can see: - I have 48 AP more which are (/w talents) around 22 Strength on gear - I have 1,26% Crit more which are around 28 Crit Rating on gear - My main hand has a 212 haste rating for 10 sec. procc equaling around 50 permanent haste rating depending on conditions given - My trinket has a 325 haste rating for 10 sec. procc equaling around 100 permanent haste rating depending on conditions given - My other trinket has an activateable 278 attack power für 20 sec. equaling at least a 46,3 permanent AP given the 2 minute cooldown - He has 78 more Hit Rating - His trinket has a 300 Attack Power for 10 sec. procc equaling around 50 permanent AP on average given the 45 second procc cooldown For raw values I'd take my gear any day of the week, now you need to add that his weapon choice isn't very good at all as a dagger in the main hand makes your whirlwinds and overpower hit like a wet noodle and that my guild has just downed 4/6 SSC and 1/4 The Eye as opposed to yours raiding Black Temple. |
helm - second sight
neck - choked of serated blades
shoulders - t4
cloak - drape of dark reavers
chest - krakken heart breastplate
bracers - bracers of eradication
gloves - gauntlets of martial perfection
belt - red belt of battle
legs - midnight legguards
boots - fel leather
rings - garona's signet ring/mithril band of the unscarred
trinkets - bladefists/hourglass
weapons (MH/OH) - Talon of Azshara/Tracker's Blade
stats - 1950 AP, 29 crit, 250+ hit (to my memory, could be slightly off)
He's got a big hardon (for obvious reasons) for Dragonspine Trophy, but to my knowledge we've had ONE drop in the all times we've killed Gruul.
Not sure why weapons were reversed in the gorefiend screenshot, though I can tell you that he died at 1% to ghosts.
Not claiming he's amazing, just pointing out that he's not an idiot :P
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Originally Posted by Borelgore
This isn't a criticism for incorporating Blood frenzy into effective dps, but if you're going to do it for the sake of accuracy your formula needs to be different. It's
(Sum_others_dmg / 1.04) * 0.04 + Personal_dmg Feel free to check my math, I found: Sum_others_dmg = 1,911,421 Sum_others_dmg / 1.04 = 1,837,905 (Sum_others_dmg / 1.04) * 0.04 = 73,516 So total damage you're responsible for is (73,516 + 380,525). Divide by 303 to get: 1,498 (effective) dps with blood frenzy. Not a huge difference, but you have to divide by your multiplier to get back to the base non-multiplied value and then actually calculate with the Blood Frenzy multiplier the accurate number. |
Last edited by Kiranat : 08/01/07 at 3:38 PM.
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Originally Posted by Kiranat
I honestly don't know what he was wearing when you armory'd him, but here's the breakdown of his gear as best I can remember.
helm - second sight neck - choked of serated blades shoulders - t4 cloak - drape of dark reavers chest - krakken heart breastplate bracers - bracers of eradication gloves - gauntlets of martial perfection belt - red belt of battle legs - midnight legguards boots - fel leather rings - garona's signet ring/mithril band of the unscarred trinkets - bladefists/hourglass weapons (MH/OH) - Talon of Azshara/Tracker's Blade stats - 1950 AP, 29 crit, 250+ hit (to my memory, could be slightly off) He's got a big hardon (for obvious reasons) for Dragonspine Trophy, but to my knowledge we've had ONE drop in the all times we've killed Gruul. Not sure why weapons were reversed in the gorefiend screenshot, though I can tell you that he died at 1% to ghosts. Not claiming he's amazing, just pointing out that he's not an idiot :P |
Edited onPatch 2.1.3
It all comes down to what drops, and what doesn't.
For example: in our 8-10 Voidreaver kills we've never seen the Fel-Steel helm.
Also, I don't know about your server, but on ours I don't think we've been able to actually find Kazzak up since our first or second kill, and if we have it hasn't been worth our time to do him because other guilds would wipe us endlessly.
For example: in our 8-10 Voidreaver kills we've never seen the Fel-Steel helm.
Also, I don't know about your server, but on ours I don't think we've been able to actually find Kazzak up since our first or second kill, and if we have it hasn't been worth our time to do him because other guilds would wipe us endlessly.
Last edited by Kiranat : 08/01/07 at 4:29 PM.
Edited onPatch 2.1.3
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Originally Posted by Kiranat
It all comes down to what drops, and what doesn't.
For example: in our 8-10 Voidreaver kills we've never seen the Fel-Steel helm. |
@Kazzak: We're farming Kazzak every time he spawns, however if other guilds wipe us we simply go on raiding SSC/The Eye.
Last edited by Hidden : 08/01/07 at 4:32 PM.
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Originally Posted by Hidden
I don't wanna offend anyone but his gear simply isn't on the niveau your guild is on so you probably shouldn't compare your damage to his and generalize it as "MS vs DW Fury".
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In my PVE set I'm still wearing 3/5 Arena 2 gear, and the PVP Neck simply because we haven't seen anything better drop. I also have no gear > SSC level.
Regardless, it wasn't my intention to say "omg ms >>>> fury lawls", simply that in this one specific case that I was using as an example it was very competitive.
Hello, I was wondering if at any point as a fury warrior it's more beneficial to snag the weapon specs instead of improved berserker stance/rampage? (For instance, if my crit and AP are both lower than what a beginning fury warrior should have)
My armory for my warrior is The Armory and come next week I will have enough to buy a gladiator offhand.
I was wondering if perhaps a mixed weapon spec such as Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft would benefit me more, while offhanding a 1.5 speed gladiator sword. (The final point could be put in bloodthirst instead of mortal strike, but since my AP is low they do about the same amount of damage and mortal strike lets me have a bit more efficiency in PvP).
This would finally boost my mainhand and special moves up to around 29% crit rating, and allow the fast sword to proc mainhand swings with the slow gladiator's cleaver.
My other idea was to take the points out of sword spec and just offhand another axe (the gladiator's hacker) with a build similar to Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft (possibly more in dual wield specialization).
These may both be farfetched and out there though, however I was just wondering if anyone had tried any similar builds before I spend the respec money and arena points on my offhand purchase.
My armory for my warrior is The Armory and come next week I will have enough to buy a gladiator offhand.
I was wondering if perhaps a mixed weapon spec such as Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft would benefit me more, while offhanding a 1.5 speed gladiator sword. (The final point could be put in bloodthirst instead of mortal strike, but since my AP is low they do about the same amount of damage and mortal strike lets me have a bit more efficiency in PvP).
This would finally boost my mainhand and special moves up to around 29% crit rating, and allow the fast sword to proc mainhand swings with the slow gladiator's cleaver.
My other idea was to take the points out of sword spec and just offhand another axe (the gladiator's hacker) with a build similar to Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft (possibly more in dual wield specialization).
These may both be farfetched and out there though, however I was just wondering if anyone had tried any similar builds before I spend the respec money and arena points on my offhand purchase.
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Originally Posted by ikillyouheal
Noticed your fury warrior only did a small amount of Hamstrings? And a relatively large amount of Heroic strikes, they might eat your DPS down really quick if you dont know what you're doing? Is he an experienced fury warrior or just re-specced to try it out?
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And no he is a very experienced fury warrior for example here he is last night doing 1918 dps on anetheron Wow Web Stats
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Originally Posted by Hidden
2 harmstrings in a whole fight when you have a windfury totem is pretty sad, additionally from his buff gains you can see that he neither uses Dragonstrike nor a Dragonspine Trophy, being easy attainable and the best weapon/trinket out there until Illidan.
Sorry, but I have yet to see a 2h Warrior compete with a decent Fury Warrior. |
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Originally Posted by Cannings
He does less hamstrings now, because he gains so much rage he doesn't need to waste the gcd on a hamstring when a ww will use the gcd and do more dmg and can also proc wf without losing your swing time
And no he is a very experienced fury warrior for example here he is last night doing 1918 dps on anetheron Wow Web Stats Killing Gruul since his first incarnation we still only have 1 dragonspine trophy in the whole of the guild, on a rogue and dragonstrike is not the be all and end all of dw weapons |
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Originally Posted by Cannings
He does less hamstrings now, because he gains so much rage he doesn't need to waste the gcd on a hamstring when a ww will use the gcd and do more dmg and can also proc wf without losing your swing time
And no he is a very experienced fury warrior for example here he is last night doing 1918 dps on anetheron |
Hamstring is definately a better use of rage than cleave on single target fights, as it provides 3 extra attacks (proc chances) and 189 damage for 30 rage where a single fully talent cleave adds only +154 and a better hit chance at the cost 20 rage + the wasted swing.
I am a bit iffier on talented heroic strike vs hamstring, but I generally find i have enough rage to use hamstring on spare cooldowns and still have some to dump.
Most interesting about this to me is that hamstring actually scales better with gear in terms of damage per point of rage than either heroic strike or cleave. As more hit gear is acquired beyond the special ability hit cap the effective hit bonus of using HS and cleave goes down, and as a player's damage increases the amount of rage he spends goes up while the amount of damage a WF proc off of his hamstring goes up as well.
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Hello, I was wondering if at any point as a fury warrior it's more beneficial to snag the weapon specs instead of improved berserker stance/rampage? (For instance, if my crit and AP are both lower than what a beginning fury warrior should have) My armory for my warrior is The Armory and come next week I will have enough to buy a gladiator offhand. I was wondering if perhaps a mixed weapon spec such as Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft would benefit me more, while offhanding a 1.5 speed gladiator sword. (The final point could be put in bloodthirst instead of mortal strike, but since my AP is low they do about the same amount of damage and mortal strike lets me have a bit more efficiency in PvP). This would finally boost my mainhand and special moves up to around 29% crit rating, and allow the fast sword to proc mainhand swings with the slow gladiator's cleaver. My other idea was to take the points out of sword spec and just offhand another axe (the gladiator's hacker) with a build similar to Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft (possibly more in dual wield specialization). These may both be farfetched and out there though, however I was just wondering if anyone had tried any similar builds before I spend the respec money and arena points on my offhand purchase. |
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Originally Posted by Cannings
He does less hamstrings now, because he gains so much rage he doesn't need to waste the gcd on a hamstring when a ww will use the gcd and do more dmg and can also proc wf without losing your swing time
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1. Priority: Bloodthirst(6 sec. Cooldown)
2. Priority: Rampage(need to renew every ~27 seconds)
3. Priority: Whirlwind(depending on spec 8-10 sec. cooldown)
Every Warrior with at least quested Fury equip can keep these abilities on cooldown, and holding these on cooldown you only have a GCD 1,5/6+1,5/27+1,5/10=0,45 meaning 45% of the time. If you don't fill the rest with Harmstrings you're only wasting damage. For example with a standard setup Harmstring can procc Windfury, Mongoose, Flurry and Dragonspine Trophy/Tsunami Talisman/Hourglass with a pretty good chance each.
Heroic Strike is nowhere near the Damage/Rage of Harmstring and so Harmstring should take priority over it. Your Fury Warrior doesn't use Harmstring at all while he's spamming Heroic Strike so he's simply wasting damage he could possibly do.
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Originally Posted by Hidden
Why do you need 2/3 TM for effective OPs? I don't have any problems using Overpower as 18/43 when I have a missstreak or something for regaining Flurry? Or do you mean fighting in Battle Stance mainly and switch for Whirlwind as in the 1500 DPS Level 60 video iirc?
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Edited onPatch 2.1.3
Rampage really is not good for a 41 point talent (and less so for 2h fury) but if you are going to put 41 points in Fury I guess its at least worth taking.
Its a really weird talent though. Costs 20 Rage, lasts 30s but you have to get a crit to activate it and then hit the mob to boost its power. And its on the GCD. Way overly complicated IMO.
edit: 'really is not good' is too strong of criticism here. 250 AP IS really good for 1 talent point. I just think the mechanics of maintaining the 250AP are overly complicated.
Its a really weird talent though. Costs 20 Rage, lasts 30s but you have to get a crit to activate it and then hit the mob to boost its power. And its on the GCD. Way overly complicated IMO.
edit: 'really is not good' is too strong of criticism here. 250 AP IS really good for 1 talent point. I just think the mechanics of maintaining the 250AP are overly complicated.
Last edited by Hozz : 07/31/07 at 4:37 PM. Reason: Clarity/Revision
When you're sitting on 30%+ Crit it's very very easy to keep up as DW.
Much harder as 2-hand fury though.
Much harder as 2-hand fury though.
Hi guys, just wanted to post my 2 cents on this topic as it's been the subject of some pretty hot discussion on my guild as well.
I went ahead and took the plunge into 33/28 (from 20/41) a few days ago, and here are my findings based on a fairly solid DPS-intensive encounter: Teron Gorefiend.
As posted at WoW Forums -> MS- The new DPS spec?
So here it is - My breakdown of 33/28 performance in a high-end raiding scenario
==============================================================
I was skeptical of the performance of this spec originally, wary that dropping 10% AP, Bloodthirst, and 2/5 Flurry might come back to bite me in the ass. Very quickly I found out that my presumptions were wrong.
This post mostly revolves around my most recent raid, notably our kill of Teron Gorefiend.
Skill Breakdown
===============
For the first 80% I simply used the normal slam rotation we've become familiar with, breaking from it a handful of times to keep Demo Shout up on Gorefiend. Last 20% was the usual Reck/DW/Execute spam.
Damage Breakdown
===============
http://www.thinkmaclaren.com/imagedump/meter.gif
http://www.thinkmaclaren.com/imagedump/meter2.gif
I apolgize for this being broken into two images, I wanted to be able to include the 1st place DPS and unless I've overlooked it these two meters DO show the same numbers for all other places.
1) Shaitain - Combat Swords Rogue - 472,599
2) Nalladuril - Combat Swords Rogue - 404,249
3) SSlanfear - DW Fury Warrior - 393,654
4) Kiranat (Me) - 33/28 Warrior - 380,525
...
6) Zaidel - Enhancement Shaman - 347,261
...
9) Iccurus - Combat Daggers Rogue - 293,658
We also have a BM hunter, however if I remember correctly he was one of the first two people to get Shadow of Death.
DPS Breakdown
===============
http://www.thinkmaclaren.com/imagedump/gordps.gif
Fight Length - 303 seconds (5 minutes, 3 seconds)
My Damage - 380,525
My DPS - 1255.8
While that on it's own isn't amazing (Shaitain pulling ~ 1550 DPS) let's plug in the DPS gained by all other melee.
Blood Frenzy adds 4% physical damage taken (by the boss), so let's add that DPS to my own and get an objective scale of the DPS done by a warrior with this spec.
(((472,599 x 0.04) + (404,249 x 0.04) + (393,654 x 0.04) + (347,261 x 0.04) + (293,658 x 0.04)) + 380,525) / 303
1508 (effective) DPS
While these numbers aren't quite as amazing as high as those posted about Serida (by Crazypie, page 8) I still consider them rather impressive. Please also note that my spec and weapon are inferior to hers (mace vs sword) though obviously that is not enough to close the 200 DPS gap between us.
Conclusion
===============
While 33/28 obviously is not the end-all and be-all of DPS, it certainly brings alot to the table, especially in a well rounded DPS group and in a relatively melee heavy raid.
In this example roughly 250 DPS was added to the raid's output and my personal damage output was only just shy of that of our fury warrior.
Please feel free to post back about this, ask questions, criticize, etc... I'd like any feedback I can to help better my play style and the DPS of myself and my guild.
I went ahead and took the plunge into 33/28 (from 20/41) a few days ago, and here are my findings based on a fairly solid DPS-intensive encounter: Teron Gorefiend.
As posted at WoW Forums -> MS- The new DPS spec?
So here it is - My breakdown of 33/28 performance in a high-end raiding scenario
==============================================================
I was skeptical of the performance of this spec originally, wary that dropping 10% AP, Bloodthirst, and 2/5 Flurry might come back to bite me in the ass. Very quickly I found out that my presumptions were wrong.
This post mostly revolves around my most recent raid, notably our kill of Teron Gorefiend.
Skill Breakdown
===============
For the first 80% I simply used the normal slam rotation we've become familiar with, breaking from it a handful of times to keep Demo Shout up on Gorefiend. Last 20% was the usual Reck/DW/Execute spam.
Damage Breakdown
===============
http://www.thinkmaclaren.com/imagedump/meter.gif
http://www.thinkmaclaren.com/imagedump/meter2.gif
I apolgize for this being broken into two images, I wanted to be able to include the 1st place DPS and unless I've overlooked it these two meters DO show the same numbers for all other places.
1) Shaitain - Combat Swords Rogue - 472,599
2) Nalladuril - Combat Swords Rogue - 404,249
3) SSlanfear - DW Fury Warrior - 393,654
4) Kiranat (Me) - 33/28 Warrior - 380,525
...
6) Zaidel - Enhancement Shaman - 347,261
...
9) Iccurus - Combat Daggers Rogue - 293,658
We also have a BM hunter, however if I remember correctly he was one of the first two people to get Shadow of Death.
DPS Breakdown
===============
http://www.thinkmaclaren.com/imagedump/gordps.gif
Fight Length - 303 seconds (5 minutes, 3 seconds)
My Damage - 380,525
My DPS - 1255.8
While that on it's own isn't amazing (Shaitain pulling ~ 1550 DPS) let's plug in the DPS gained by all other melee.
Blood Frenzy adds 4% physical damage taken (by the boss), so let's add that DPS to my own and get an objective scale of the DPS done by a warrior with this spec.
(((472,599 x 0.04) + (404,249 x 0.04) + (393,654 x 0.04) + (347,261 x 0.04) + (293,658 x 0.04)) + 380,525) / 303
1508 (effective) DPS
While these numbers aren't quite as amazing as high as those posted about Serida (by Crazypie, page 8) I still consider them rather impressive. Please also note that my spec and weapon are inferior to hers (mace vs sword) though obviously that is not enough to close the 200 DPS gap between us.
Conclusion
===============
While 33/28 obviously is not the end-all and be-all of DPS, it certainly brings alot to the table, especially in a well rounded DPS group and in a relatively melee heavy raid.
In this example roughly 250 DPS was added to the raid's output and my personal damage output was only just shy of that of our fury warrior.
Please feel free to post back about this, ask questions, criticize, etc... I'd like any feedback I can to help better my play style and the DPS of myself and my guild.
Edited onPatch 2.1.3
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Originally Posted by Kiranat
In this example roughly 250 DPS was added to the raid's output and my personal damage output was only just shy of that of our fury warrior.
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If that's your Fury Warrior I must say that you shouldn't compare your DPS to his as his gear choices and total gear level aren't that good in terms of maximum DPS.
If you compare his gear to mine, you can see:
- I have 48 AP more which are (/w talents) around 22 Strength on gear
- I have 1,26% Crit more which are around 28 Crit Rating on gear
- My main hand has a 212 haste rating for 10 sec. procc equaling around 50 permanent haste rating depending on conditions given
- My trinket has a 325 haste rating for 10 sec. procc equaling around 100 permanent haste rating depending on conditions given
- My other trinket has an activateable 278 attack power für 20 sec. equaling at least a 46,3 permanent AP given the 2 minute cooldown
- He has 78 more Hit Rating
- His trinket has a 300 Attack Power for 10 sec. procc equaling around 50 permanent AP on average given the 45 second procc cooldown
For raw values I'd take my gear any day of the week, now you need to add that his weapon choice isn't very good at all as a dagger in the main hand makes your whirlwinds and overpower hit like a wet noodle and that my guild has just downed 4/6 SSC and 1/4 The Eye as opposed to yours raiding Black Temple.
@Topic: I was using a Bloodmoon and a 31/30 specc with imp. Slam for quite some time and recently(=last week) got my Dragonstrike and skilled DW Fury (that also pretty much explains my low hit atm). My damage has increased by quite a bit and, maybe even more importantly, I have much more fun playing my Warrior now. Having up all proccs in a Warrior/Rogue/Druid/Hunter/Shaman group I can get some devastating results (and a lot of aggro ;-)).
Last edited by Hidden : 08/01/07 at 3:57 AM.
Kirnat that pretty much replicates what I've found doing 33/28 but with a sword now,
This is from our Hyjal and BT Clear last week after I got cataclysms edge and went sword spec,
Boomkat is our Fury Warrior using Swiftsteel Bludgeon and Kael Mace,
Kaz'rogal: Wow Web Stats
Bloodboil: (got cratered stupid threat) Wow Web Stats
Illidan: Wow Web Stats
Anetheron: Wow Web Stats
Archimonde: Wow Web Stats
Illidari Council: (Very threat capped) Wow Web Stats
I think over these fights and most that are very melee unfriendly I held my own as a DPS'er never coming too far behind the fury and when I start picking up some T6 for armour pen I think I will be definately competing for the top warrior (might be a slog to beat our rogues)
This is from our Hyjal and BT Clear last week after I got cataclysms edge and went sword spec,
Boomkat is our Fury Warrior using Swiftsteel Bludgeon and Kael Mace,
Kaz'rogal: Wow Web Stats
Bloodboil: (got cratered stupid threat) Wow Web Stats
Illidan: Wow Web Stats
Anetheron: Wow Web Stats
Archimonde: Wow Web Stats
Illidari Council: (Very threat capped) Wow Web Stats
I think over these fights and most that are very melee unfriendly I held my own as a DPS'er never coming too far behind the fury and when I start picking up some T6 for armour pen I think I will be definately competing for the top warrior (might be a slog to beat our rogues)
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Originally Posted by Cannings
Archimonde: Wow Web Stats
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Originally Posted by ikillyouheal
Noticed your fury warrior only did a small amount of Hamstrings? And a relatively large amount of Heroic strikes, they might eat your DPS down really quick if you dont know what you're doing? Is he an experienced fury warrior or just re-specced to try it out?
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Sorry, but I have yet to see a 2h Warrior compete with a decent Fury Warrior.
Something that i have been kicking around for awhile (and something that i am about to try tonight, unless anyone here has tried it and dismissed it):
Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft
My gear / setup is ~230 hit, 31% crit, 1850 unbuffed AP (no shout). I have a fully upgraded dragonstrike, and Merciless quickblade (both mongoosed).
My idea here is that with all of the haste effects that i will be getting (DST / Abbacus / Dragonstrike / flurry / etc etc), i will be pushing that quickblade to a SUPER fast sword weapon, meaning a great increase of overall sword spec procs (since it is a static number).
From there, with the OH sword being already a ton faster than the MH, i would push that MH to an extra swing just over 1 in every 10 of its swings (which are already a ton faster due to all of the haste effects). Of course, this entire thing would be even better if dragonstrike was a sword, but i work with what i have to work with.
Anyways, just seeing if anyone has tried this with the type of setup i'm using, and if it is worth losing out on 1 second of WW, imp zerker, and rampage.
Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft
My gear / setup is ~230 hit, 31% crit, 1850 unbuffed AP (no shout). I have a fully upgraded dragonstrike, and Merciless quickblade (both mongoosed).
My idea here is that with all of the haste effects that i will be getting (DST / Abbacus / Dragonstrike / flurry / etc etc), i will be pushing that quickblade to a SUPER fast sword weapon, meaning a great increase of overall sword spec procs (since it is a static number).
From there, with the OH sword being already a ton faster than the MH, i would push that MH to an extra swing just over 1 in every 10 of its swings (which are already a ton faster due to all of the haste effects). Of course, this entire thing would be even better if dragonstrike was a sword, but i work with what i have to work with.
Anyways, just seeing if anyone has tried this with the type of setup i'm using, and if it is worth losing out on 1 second of WW, imp zerker, and rampage.
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Originally Posted by Yag
Something that i have been kicking around for awhile (and something that i am about to try tonight, unless anyone here has tried it and dismissed it):
Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft My gear / setup is ~230 hit, 31% crit, 1850 unbuffed AP (no shout). I have a fully upgraded dragonstrike, and Merciless quickblade (both mongoosed). My idea here is that with all of the haste effects that i will be getting (DST / Abbacus / Dragonstrike / flurry / etc etc), i will be pushing that quickblade to a SUPER fast sword weapon, meaning a great increase of overall sword spec procs (since it is a static number). From there, with the OH sword being already a ton faster than the MH, i would push that MH to an extra swing just over 1 in every 10 of its swings (which are already a ton faster due to all of the haste effects). Of course, this entire thing would be even better if dragonstrike was a sword, but i work with what i have to work with. Anyways, just seeing if anyone has tried this with the type of setup i'm using, and if it is worth losing out on 1 second of WW, imp zerker, and rampage. |
Tip: When you dont have Imp zerker stance, I tend to go for 2/3 in TM just to be able to do effective OP's. You might consider it instead of Imp. WW and something else.
17/44, i'm usually never close to being bottomed out on rage in raids. I just saw the possibility, and thought it was an interesting idea, and different than the standard 17/44, and thought it might bring more PvP viability / burst to the scene since in much smaller groups talents like imp zerker stance don't bring as much to the table.
unfortunately, the cookie cutter specs are generally there because that is the best way to max yourself.
unfortunately, the cookie cutter specs are generally there because that is the best way to max yourself.
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Originally Posted by ikillyouheal
I used this build untill we started doing SSC, mainly because we didnt have a shaman for melee before that point. It's a solid build if you're lacking rage, otherwise I found it rather mleh.
Tip: When you dont have Imp zerker stance, I tend to go for 2/3 in TM just to be able to do effective OP's. You might consider it instead of Imp. WW and something else. |
Maybe he's also doing Thunderclap.
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Originally Posted by Kiranat
DPS Breakdown
=============== http://www.thinkmaclaren.com/imagedump/gordps.gif Fight Length - 303 seconds (5 minutes, 3 seconds) My Damage - 380,525 My DPS - 1255.8 While that on it's own isn't amazing (Shaitain pulling ~ 1550 DPS) let's plug in the DPS gained by all other melee. Blood Frenzy adds 4% physical damage taken (by the boss), so let's add that DPS to my own and get an objective scale of the DPS done by a warrior with this spec. (((472,599 x 0.04) + (404,249 x 0.04) + (393,654 x 0.04) + (347,261 x 0.04) + (293,658 x 0.04)) + 380,525) / 303 1508 (effective) DPS While these numbers aren't quite as amazing as high as those posted about Serida (by Crazypie, page 8) I still consider them rather impressive. Please also note that my spec and weapon are inferior to hers (mace vs sword) though obviously that is not enough to close the 200 DPS gap between us. |
(Sum_others_dmg / 1.04) * 0.04 + Personal_dmg
Feel free to check my math, I found:
Sum_others_dmg = 1,911,421
Sum_others_dmg / 1.04 = 1,837,905
(Sum_others_dmg / 1.04) * 0.04 = 73,516
So total damage you're responsible for is (73,516 + 380,525). Divide by 303 to get:
1,498 (effective) dps with blood frenzy.
Not a huge difference, but you have to divide by your multiplier to get back to the base non-multiplied value and then actually calculate with the Blood Frenzy multiplier the accurate number.
Edited onPatch 2.1.3
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Originally Posted by Hidden
The Armory
If that's your Fury Warrior I must say that you shouldn't compare your DPS to his as his gear choices and total gear level aren't that good in terms of maximum DPS. If you compare his gear to mine, you can see: - I have 48 AP more which are (/w talents) around 22 Strength on gear - I have 1,26% Crit more which are around 28 Crit Rating on gear - My main hand has a 212 haste rating for 10 sec. procc equaling around 50 permanent haste rating depending on conditions given - My trinket has a 325 haste rating for 10 sec. procc equaling around 100 permanent haste rating depending on conditions given - My other trinket has an activateable 278 attack power für 20 sec. equaling at least a 46,3 permanent AP given the 2 minute cooldown - He has 78 more Hit Rating - His trinket has a 300 Attack Power for 10 sec. procc equaling around 50 permanent AP on average given the 45 second procc cooldown For raw values I'd take my gear any day of the week, now you need to add that his weapon choice isn't very good at all as a dagger in the main hand makes your whirlwinds and overpower hit like a wet noodle and that my guild has just downed 4/6 SSC and 1/4 The Eye as opposed to yours raiding Black Temple. |
helm - second sight
neck - choked of serated blades
shoulders - t4
cloak - drape of dark reavers
chest - krakken heart breastplate
bracers - bracers of eradication
gloves - gauntlets of martial perfection
belt - red belt of battle
legs - midnight legguards
boots - fel leather
rings - garona's signet ring/mithril band of the unscarred
trinkets - bladefists/hourglass
weapons (MH/OH) - Talon of Azshara/Tracker's Blade
stats - 1950 AP, 29 crit, 250+ hit (to my memory, could be slightly off)
He's got a big hardon (for obvious reasons) for Dragonspine Trophy, but to my knowledge we've had ONE drop in the all times we've killed Gruul.
Not sure why weapons were reversed in the gorefiend screenshot, though I can tell you that he died at 1% to ghosts.
Not claiming he's amazing, just pointing out that he's not an idiot :P
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Originally Posted by Borelgore
This isn't a criticism for incorporating Blood frenzy into effective dps, but if you're going to do it for the sake of accuracy your formula needs to be different. It's
(Sum_others_dmg / 1.04) * 0.04 + Personal_dmg Feel free to check my math, I found: Sum_others_dmg = 1,911,421 Sum_others_dmg / 1.04 = 1,837,905 (Sum_others_dmg / 1.04) * 0.04 = 73,516 So total damage you're responsible for is (73,516 + 380,525). Divide by 303 to get: 1,498 (effective) dps with blood frenzy. Not a huge difference, but you have to divide by your multiplier to get back to the base non-multiplied value and then actually calculate with the Blood Frenzy multiplier the accurate number. |
Last edited by Kiranat : 08/01/07 at 3:38 PM.
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Originally Posted by Kiranat
I honestly don't know what he was wearing when you armory'd him, but here's the breakdown of his gear as best I can remember.
helm - second sight neck - choked of serated blades shoulders - t4 cloak - drape of dark reavers chest - krakken heart breastplate bracers - bracers of eradication gloves - gauntlets of martial perfection belt - red belt of battle legs - midnight legguards boots - fel leather rings - garona's signet ring/mithril band of the unscarred trinkets - bladefists/hourglass weapons (MH/OH) - Talon of Azshara/Tracker's Blade stats - 1950 AP, 29 crit, 250+ hit (to my memory, could be slightly off) He's got a big hardon (for obvious reasons) for Dragonspine Trophy, but to my knowledge we've had ONE drop in the all times we've killed Gruul. Not sure why weapons were reversed in the gorefiend screenshot, though I can tell you that he died at 1% to ghosts. Not claiming he's amazing, just pointing out that he's not an idiot :P |
Edited onPatch 2.1.3
It all comes down to what drops, and what doesn't.
For example: in our 8-10 Voidreaver kills we've never seen the Fel-Steel helm.
Also, I don't know about your server, but on ours I don't think we've been able to actually find Kazzak up since our first or second kill, and if we have it hasn't been worth our time to do him because other guilds would wipe us endlessly.
For example: in our 8-10 Voidreaver kills we've never seen the Fel-Steel helm.
Also, I don't know about your server, but on ours I don't think we've been able to actually find Kazzak up since our first or second kill, and if we have it hasn't been worth our time to do him because other guilds would wipe us endlessly.
Last edited by Kiranat : 08/01/07 at 4:29 PM.
Edited onPatch 2.1.3
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Originally Posted by Kiranat
It all comes down to what drops, and what doesn't.
For example: in our 8-10 Voidreaver kills we've never seen the Fel-Steel helm. |
@Kazzak: We're farming Kazzak every time he spawns, however if other guilds wipe us we simply go on raiding SSC/The Eye.
Last edited by Hidden : 08/01/07 at 4:32 PM.
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Originally Posted by Hidden
I don't wanna offend anyone but his gear simply isn't on the niveau your guild is on so you probably shouldn't compare your damage to his and generalize it as "MS vs DW Fury".
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In my PVE set I'm still wearing 3/5 Arena 2 gear, and the PVP Neck simply because we haven't seen anything better drop. I also have no gear > SSC level.
Regardless, it wasn't my intention to say "omg ms >>>> fury lawls", simply that in this one specific case that I was using as an example it was very competitive.
Hello, I was wondering if at any point as a fury warrior it's more beneficial to snag the weapon specs instead of improved berserker stance/rampage? (For instance, if my crit and AP are both lower than what a beginning fury warrior should have)
My armory for my warrior is The Armory and come next week I will have enough to buy a gladiator offhand.
I was wondering if perhaps a mixed weapon spec such as Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft would benefit me more, while offhanding a 1.5 speed gladiator sword. (The final point could be put in bloodthirst instead of mortal strike, but since my AP is low they do about the same amount of damage and mortal strike lets me have a bit more efficiency in PvP).
This would finally boost my mainhand and special moves up to around 29% crit rating, and allow the fast sword to proc mainhand swings with the slow gladiator's cleaver.
My other idea was to take the points out of sword spec and just offhand another axe (the gladiator's hacker) with a build similar to Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft (possibly more in dual wield specialization).
These may both be farfetched and out there though, however I was just wondering if anyone had tried any similar builds before I spend the respec money and arena points on my offhand purchase.
My armory for my warrior is The Armory and come next week I will have enough to buy a gladiator offhand.
I was wondering if perhaps a mixed weapon spec such as Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft would benefit me more, while offhanding a 1.5 speed gladiator sword. (The final point could be put in bloodthirst instead of mortal strike, but since my AP is low they do about the same amount of damage and mortal strike lets me have a bit more efficiency in PvP).
This would finally boost my mainhand and special moves up to around 29% crit rating, and allow the fast sword to proc mainhand swings with the slow gladiator's cleaver.
My other idea was to take the points out of sword spec and just offhand another axe (the gladiator's hacker) with a build similar to Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft (possibly more in dual wield specialization).
These may both be farfetched and out there though, however I was just wondering if anyone had tried any similar builds before I spend the respec money and arena points on my offhand purchase.
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Originally Posted by ikillyouheal
Noticed your fury warrior only did a small amount of Hamstrings? And a relatively large amount of Heroic strikes, they might eat your DPS down really quick if you dont know what you're doing? Is he an experienced fury warrior or just re-specced to try it out?
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And no he is a very experienced fury warrior for example here he is last night doing 1918 dps on anetheron Wow Web Stats
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Originally Posted by Hidden
2 harmstrings in a whole fight when you have a windfury totem is pretty sad, additionally from his buff gains you can see that he neither uses Dragonstrike nor a Dragonspine Trophy, being easy attainable and the best weapon/trinket out there until Illidan.
Sorry, but I have yet to see a 2h Warrior compete with a decent Fury Warrior. |
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Originally Posted by Cannings
He does less hamstrings now, because he gains so much rage he doesn't need to waste the gcd on a hamstring when a ww will use the gcd and do more dmg and can also proc wf without losing your swing time
And no he is a very experienced fury warrior for example here he is last night doing 1918 dps on anetheron Wow Web Stats Killing Gruul since his first incarnation we still only have 1 dragonspine trophy in the whole of the guild, on a rogue and dragonstrike is not the be all and end all of dw weapons |
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Originally Posted by Cannings
He does less hamstrings now, because he gains so much rage he doesn't need to waste the gcd on a hamstring when a ww will use the gcd and do more dmg and can also proc wf without losing your swing time
And no he is a very experienced fury warrior for example here he is last night doing 1918 dps on anetheron |
Hamstring is definately a better use of rage than cleave on single target fights, as it provides 3 extra attacks (proc chances) and 189 damage for 30 rage where a single fully talent cleave adds only +154 and a better hit chance at the cost 20 rage + the wasted swing.
I am a bit iffier on talented heroic strike vs hamstring, but I generally find i have enough rage to use hamstring on spare cooldowns and still have some to dump.
Most interesting about this to me is that hamstring actually scales better with gear in terms of damage per point of rage than either heroic strike or cleave. As more hit gear is acquired beyond the special ability hit cap the effective hit bonus of using HS and cleave goes down, and as a player's damage increases the amount of rage he spends goes up while the amount of damage a WF proc off of his hamstring goes up as well.
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Hello, I was wondering if at any point as a fury warrior it's more beneficial to snag the weapon specs instead of improved berserker stance/rampage? (For instance, if my crit and AP are both lower than what a beginning fury warrior should have) My armory for my warrior is The Armory and come next week I will have enough to buy a gladiator offhand. I was wondering if perhaps a mixed weapon spec such as Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft would benefit me more, while offhanding a 1.5 speed gladiator sword. (The final point could be put in bloodthirst instead of mortal strike, but since my AP is low they do about the same amount of damage and mortal strike lets me have a bit more efficiency in PvP). This would finally boost my mainhand and special moves up to around 29% crit rating, and allow the fast sword to proc mainhand swings with the slow gladiator's cleaver. My other idea was to take the points out of sword spec and just offhand another axe (the gladiator's hacker) with a build similar to Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft (possibly more in dual wield specialization). These may both be farfetched and out there though, however I was just wondering if anyone had tried any similar builds before I spend the respec money and arena points on my offhand purchase. |
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Originally Posted by Cannings
He does less hamstrings now, because he gains so much rage he doesn't need to waste the gcd on a hamstring when a ww will use the gcd and do more dmg and can also proc wf without losing your swing time
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1. Priority: Bloodthirst(6 sec. Cooldown)
2. Priority: Rampage(need to renew every ~27 seconds)
3. Priority: Whirlwind(depending on spec 8-10 sec. cooldown)
Every Warrior with at least quested Fury equip can keep these abilities on cooldown, and holding these on cooldown you only have a GCD 1,5/6+1,5/27+1,5/10=0,45 meaning 45% of the time. If you don't fill the rest with Harmstrings you're only wasting damage. For example with a standard setup Harmstring can procc Windfury, Mongoose, Flurry and Dragonspine Trophy/Tsunami Talisman/Hourglass with a pretty good chance each.
Heroic Strike is nowhere near the Damage/Rage of Harmstring and so Harmstring should take priority over it. Your Fury Warrior doesn't use Harmstring at all while he's spamming Heroic Strike so he's simply wasting damage he could possibly do.
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Originally Posted by Hidden
Why do you need 2/3 TM for effective OPs? I don't have any problems using Overpower as 18/43 when I have a missstreak or something for regaining Flurry? Or do you mean fighting in Battle Stance mainly and switch for Whirlwind as in the 1500 DPS Level 60 video iirc?
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This might have been answered some where else on these boards but my searchfu has failed me in finding it.
Has anyone done the math to figure out at what point Rampage becomes not worth it? Being a non scaling ability there is some point at which the GCDs you use to put it up and keep it up would generate more overall DPS if you used them on something else.
Has anyone done the math to figure out at what point Rampage becomes not worth it? Being a non scaling ability there is some point at which the GCDs you use to put it up and keep it up would generate more overall DPS if you used them on something else.
AP does scale with ur crit/hit/WF/BT/Haste etc...
What else would you get ? It's only one point and you've gone all the way down there to pick up Imp zerk stance which does scale. 250 AP for 1 point is pretty cheap.
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Originally Posted by Sorcerer
AP does scale with ur crit/hit/WF/BT/Haste etc...
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What I'm getting at is that at some point, gear wise, the GCDs you spend on putting up and keeping up Rampage will generate more overall DPS by using them on damage abilities.
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Originally Posted by Zakath
What else would you get ? It's only one point and you've gone all the way down there to pick up Imp zerk stance which does scale. 250 AP for 1 point is pretty cheap.
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Remember how the original Eviserate (also a non scaling ability) used to be for rogues? After thier white DPS reached ~160 using it was actually reducing thier DPS. Rampage is flawed in the exact same way - at some point gear upgrades will make it completely irrelevent.
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Originally Posted by Darkmyst
That doesn't make Rampage's flat 250 AP scale. 250 AP is always 250 AP. I wasn't asking about AP scaling, I'm asking about Rampage.
What I'm getting at is that at some point, gear wise, the GCDs you spend on putting up and keeping up Rampage will generate more overall DPS by using them on damage abilities. |
I just personally see it that the 30 second period is to short in comparison to the rage/use of a GCD/5 attacks. I would be all for increasing the rage to say 30/35/40 and increasing the period of time to 1min. That would mean that you would only be using 1 GD a minute rather then 2.
Thanks Yag for the information, I can't believe I missed your post up there (I had done a search but not found anything relevant to what I was asking on the boards).
Let me know how it goes in your testing, I look forward to it!
Let me know how it goes in your testing, I look forward to it!
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Originally Posted by Darkmyst
That doesn't make Rampage's flat 250 AP scale. 250 AP is always 250 AP. I wasn't asking about AP scaling, I'm asking about Rampage.
What I'm getting at is that at some point, gear wise, the GCDs you spend on putting up and keeping up Rampage will generate more overall DPS by using them on damage abilities. |
250AP is always 250AP but the DPS gained is different for each situation this way ur rampage is "doing" more dps the better ur gear gets.
There are also not that many skills using GCD as DW fury except spamstring whereas it might happen that hamstring > rampage but than u would need insane weapon dmg to make that 1/5 chance to proc WF be better than 250AP for 30sec.
An interesting question I have thought about along the same lines to your point Darkmyst is if a 0/31/30 build would actually scale better than 17/44/0 as gear improved?
I don't have the math background to run the theorycraft, but my hypothesis is that in terms of scaling, the AP bonues deep in the fury tree could be offset by the 10% bonus of one handed weapon spec as AP gets higher.
Hmm, thinking about it more, this is overly simplistic. There are many variables to consider, like up time of Rampage, the boost to your BT damage as well as the buff to your white damge from the AP talents, etc. It would be interesting to attempt to graph this out though and see if there is a point where one of the specs out paces the other.
I don't have the math background to run the theorycraft, but my hypothesis is that in terms of scaling, the AP bonues deep in the fury tree could be offset by the 10% bonus of one handed weapon spec as AP gets higher.
Hmm, thinking about it more, this is overly simplistic. There are many variables to consider, like up time of Rampage, the boost to your BT damage as well as the buff to your white damge from the AP talents, etc. It would be interesting to attempt to graph this out though and see if there is a point where one of the specs out paces the other.
An interesting question is if 0/20/41 with great MH , great crit + hit + shamman WF would be better than 17/44 for DPS.
Devastate spam with haste items and WF could be devastating as long as u would have rogue to expose armor.
Last time i was prot i had really nice DPS with my DW gear and windfury. But that was quite some time ago where my gear was much worse than now. I could sustain 650DPS back than.
Atm i upgraded a lot gear along with DST, new MH/OH and shitloads of AP.
Devastate spam with haste items and WF could be devastating as long as u would have rogue to expose armor.
Last time i was prot i had really nice DPS with my DW gear and windfury. But that was quite some time ago where my gear was much worse than now. I could sustain 650DPS back than.
Atm i upgraded a lot gear along with DST, new MH/OH and shitloads of AP.
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Originally Posted by Sorcerer
Devastate spam with haste items and WF could be devastating as long as u would have rogue to expose armor.
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An interesting question is if 0/20/41 with great MH , great crit + hit + shamman WF would be better than 17/44 for DPS. Devastate spam with haste items and WF could be devastating as long as u would have rogue to expose armor. Last time i was prot i had really nice DPS with my DW gear and windfury. But that was quite some time ago where my gear was much worse than now. I could sustain 650DPS back than. Atm i upgraded a lot gear along with DST, new MH/OH and shitloads of AP. |
P.S. I posted the crap about the possibility of a 25/36/0 build on the WoW forums... guess i gotta go there from time to time to remind myself why i am happier not going there, and having my general chat turned off.
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Originally Posted by Suesse
If a rogue exposes armor, you lose 5*35 damage per devastate (pre-armor), right? That seems bad.
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Havent been prot for quite some time now. Anyway devastate spam shouldnt be that much agro considering that me well geared use heroic too often in raid enviroment anyway to dump rage even with spamstring.
When i get some money ill try it out in SSC or TK and post results
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Originally Posted by Sorcerer
250AP is always 250AP but the DPS gained is different for each situation this way ur rampage is "doing" more dps the better ur gear gets.
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250 AP adds 17.86 white DPS to each hand and it causes a 2.40 SPD (assuming sword or mace) normalized add to WWs damage. And it adds 112.5 damage to Bloodthirst. Always. Gear does not change that in the slightest.
| There are also not that many skills using GCD as DW fury except spamstring whereas it might happen that hamstring > rampage but than u would need insane weapon dmg to make that 1/5 chance to proc WF be better than 250AP for 30sec. |
Rough back of napkin math over lunch pizza follows.
I looked at it over 100 seconds and assumed Rampage was refreshed every 25 seconds and that the first GCD in the 100 seconds was used ot refresh rampage - so we can get in 9 WW and 16 Bloodthirsts in that time. I based all calcs off using The Decapitator as the main hand.
Rampage can be looked at additively since AP does nothing more than add DPS.
Over 100 seconds 250 AP adds (I used a 33% crit rate for these calcs)
4750 White DMG
513 total dmg added to the 9 WWs
1800 total dmg added to the 16 BTs
7657 total dmg added by rampage over the course of 100 seconds. Note: I didn't not figure in the damage added to WF procs from normal hits and spamstring. I need to figure this in when I have more time.
vs.
Using slam with a Decapitator and assuming 3000 AP and 33% crit rate
5297.7 Damage if we used slam for those 5 GCDs we'd have used on Rampage.
1172.4 DMG on average for the additional WF proc those slams would create.
6470.1 DMG done using Slam instead of Rampage.
Now this is admittedly incomplete math - I don't account for the DPS Ramapge adds to normal melee and spamstring produced WF procs over that 100 seconds in the first set of calcs. Also it doesn't account for the impact on DPS that using slam will have vs. using Ramapge (which doesn't affect the swing timer).
But the numbers are closer than I would have thought. And given that 3000 AP and Decapitator are from current end game standards I wouldn't be surprised at all if it's possible for warriors to reach a gear level where, no matter how sloppy they are with the swing timer and slam, that replacing Rampage with slam is the way to go beacuase while the slam numbers will only go up as your gear gets better the DPS 250 AP adds will always be the same.
Edited onPatch 2.1.3
Your math is flawed.
It lacks how much dmg u would gain with more hit / less hit etc...
Extra procs like my dragonstrike and dragonspine trophy + Hyjal/BT haste items would add a lot more white dmg with extra 250AP than GCD used on slam/hamstring.
Last time i did recap parsing about month ago my white dmg was at around 63-65% of total dmg. It probably went higher now since i got dragonstrike/dragonspine to around 70-75%.
Will do some parsing later when we go to SSC.
PS. Did u math lost white swings in ur slam math?
PS2. Slam for DW fury with something around my gear is EXTREME dps loss.
Uptime of haste procs is huge. I wish i had T5 head with haste meta + hyjal trash mace with gloves now. My 2.7s MH with Flurry + DST + mace is at 1.23 speed.
It lacks how much dmg u would gain with more hit / less hit etc...
Extra procs like my dragonstrike and dragonspine trophy + Hyjal/BT haste items would add a lot more white dmg with extra 250AP than GCD used on slam/hamstring.
Last time i did recap parsing about month ago my white dmg was at around 63-65% of total dmg. It probably went higher now since i got dragonstrike/dragonspine to around 70-75%.
Will do some parsing later when we go to SSC.
PS. Did u math lost white swings in ur slam math?
PS2. Slam for DW fury with something around my gear is EXTREME dps loss.
Uptime of haste procs is huge. I wish i had T5 head with haste meta + hyjal trash mace with gloves now. My 2.7s MH with Flurry + DST + mace is at 1.23 speed.
Last edited by Sorcerer : 08/02/07 at 3:21 PM.
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Originally Posted by Sorcerer
Your math is flawed.
PS. Did u math lost white swings in ur slam math? |
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PS2. Slam for DW fury with something around my gear is EXTREME dps loss. Uptime of haste procs is huge. I wish i had T5 head with haste meta + hyjal trash mace with gloves now. My 2.7s MH with Flurry + DST + mace is at 1.23 speed. |
Edited onPatch 2.1.3
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Originally Posted by Darkmyst
I said in the post I didn't and that I also had to figure in the impact of 250 AP on WF procs produced via normal swings and hamstring spam. Like I said, this is admittedly incomplete math.
The effect it would have when taking haste into account was something that didn't occur to me until after making the post. And I'll admit when I thought about how to figure that in my initial response was "Ugh, not sure I want to dig that deep into this." |
Last edited by Hidden : 08/02/07 at 10:23 PM.
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Originally Posted by Hidden
From what you're writing you don't look like you're having a clue about Fury Warriors yourself. There's a simple priority system involved in playing a Fury Warrior.
1. Priority: Bloodthirst(6 sec. Cooldown) 2. Priority: Rampage(need to renew every ~27 seconds) 3. Priority: Whirlwind(depending on spec 8-10 sec. cooldown) Every Warrior with at least quested Fury equip can keep these abilities on cooldown, and holding these on cooldown you only have a GCD 1,5/6+1,5/27+1,5/10=0,45 meaning 45% of the time. If you don't fill the rest with Harmstrings you're only wasting damage. For example with a standard setup Harmstring can procc Windfury, Mongoose, Flurry and Dragonspine Trophy/Tsunami Talisman/Hourglass with a pretty good chance each. Heroic Strike is nowhere near the Damage/Rage of Harmstring and so Harmstring should take priority over it. Your Fury Warrior doesn't use Harmstring at all while he's spamming Heroic Strike so he's simply wasting damage he could possibly do. |
1: It will never miss with more than 8.6% hit.
2: Never glances.
3: 20% crit damage bonus from impale.
The benefit to using heroic strike over hamstring in the priority isn't the 186 extra damage it does, it's the three points I outlined above.
Yes, Heroic is good for the reasons you listed, but Hamstring is better as long as you have Windfury. It doesn't really matter though as one is an instant and the other is next attack. If you're just worried about threat, you simply need to figure out how much damage per threat you are getting from Hamfury. I'm not sure if the extra attack from Windfury is normalized or not either. I was under the assumption that it wasn't.
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Originally Posted by Graul
Yes, Heroic is good for the reasons you listed, but Hamstring is better as long as you have Windfury. It doesn't really matter though as one is an instant and the other is next attack. If you're just worried about threat, you simply need to figure out how much damage per threat you are getting from Hamfury. I'm not sure if the extra attack from Windfury is normalized or not either. I was under the assumption that it wasn't.
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When I get a 180 dps one hander, I'll get one hand spec. Until then, I'll stick with rampage.
Some points:
1. You don't always have windfury but you could potentially always have rampage.
2. I've never even tried slam spam as DW. I have switched to a build built around stance dance overpowering to add another instant attack. The loss of rage is almost irrelevant and you get fairly regular dodges when you attack frequently.
3. 10% more 1 hand damage is partially matched by 10% more ap. Then, rampage merely has to match 10% of your weapon damage its self. This is where 180 dps one hander comes from. This does not count the loss of any other top fury talents. Obviously, 30 pts in prot would result in better tank prowess.
4. Without spamstring and factoring in 1 OP every 20 seconds, I'm at roughly 60% of the GCD cap. Depending on latency, you can approach the GCD cap, so a well thought out cycle/approach has a reasonable amount of GCDs to keep rampage up.
Some points:
1. You don't always have windfury but you could potentially always have rampage.
2. I've never even tried slam spam as DW. I have switched to a build built around stance dance overpowering to add another instant attack. The loss of rage is almost irrelevant and you get fairly regular dodges when you attack frequently.
3. 10% more 1 hand damage is partially matched by 10% more ap. Then, rampage merely has to match 10% of your weapon damage its self. This is where 180 dps one hander comes from. This does not count the loss of any other top fury talents. Obviously, 30 pts in prot would result in better tank prowess.
4. Without spamstring and factoring in 1 OP every 20 seconds, I'm at roughly 60% of the GCD cap. Depending on latency, you can approach the GCD cap, so a well thought out cycle/approach has a reasonable amount of GCDs to keep rampage up.
Well, I read through the thread and I didn't see much on this question so here goes:
What do you 33/28(or 31/30) warriors do when you get Bloodlust pre 20%?
Sometimes my guild likes to stack lusts into the melee group and this gives me problems.
I do the standard (white->slam, ms, white->slam, ww, etc) rotation but this all goes to hell in a handbasket if I get lust early as my auto attack timer drops to 2.2. I tend to simply fall into mashing ms/ww/hamstring and then popping in heroic strike when my rage gets too high but this seems very clunky and not the best use of the hasted time. Is it better to forgo ms/ww/hamstring completely and just time slams for after the auto attack swings?
What do you 33/28(or 31/30) warriors do when you get Bloodlust pre 20%?
Sometimes my guild likes to stack lusts into the melee group and this gives me problems.
I do the standard (white->slam, ms, white->slam, ww, etc) rotation but this all goes to hell in a handbasket if I get lust early as my auto attack timer drops to 2.2. I tend to simply fall into mashing ms/ww/hamstring and then popping in heroic strike when my rage gets too high but this seems very clunky and not the best use of the hasted time. Is it better to forgo ms/ww/hamstring completely and just time slams for after the auto attack swings?
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Originally Posted by Durus
You're forgetting very large factors in heroic strike's damage.
1: It will never miss with more than 8.6% hit. 2: Never glances. 3: 20% crit damage bonus from impale. The benefit to using heroic strike over hamstring in the priority isn't the 186 extra damage it does, it's the three points I outlined above. |
I know the arguments you did there, but there are contra-arguments as well:
1. If you have good equip your point number 1 doesn't make a big difference at all.
2. It causes a large portion of extra aggro you should try to avoid.
3. It costs tons of rage as it stops your mainhand from generating rage.
I just wanted you to know that not using Harmstring at all is bad for a Fury Warriors DPS every way you look at it.
@Kaos: When I was 2h I switched to a simple Auto Attack/Slam rotation because the casting time of slam is being reduced as well and it's more rage efficient than spamming MS/WW.
Using hamstring when possible is nice, but it's never for me an either or proposition with heroic striking. With an enhancement shaman and a WF totem, I can HS quite frequently anyway, and have the rage to keep BT/WW/Rampage on cooldown, and toss in hamstring when my GCD is free. On some fights I end up with as little as 30% white damage due to being able to heroic strike so often. (Yes, of course replace a lot of those HS with cleave on some more aggro sensitive fights like Gurtogg, Void Reaver, etc.).
As far as avoiding HS due to threat, that's generally a non-issue. I can sustain 1600 DPS on a fight without pulling aggro consistently. A good thing on many fights is to have your shaman use TA totem for the first 5% or so of a fight to let the tank gain a good threat cushion on you. But our tank doesnt even generally have WF, and I have few aggro issues, so I don't see why people are saying hamstring and heroic strike are mutually exclusive at all. Yes, I hamstring when I can, but I use HS a hell of a lot more times over a boss fight.
As far as avoiding HS due to threat, that's generally a non-issue. I can sustain 1600 DPS on a fight without pulling aggro consistently. A good thing on many fights is to have your shaman use TA totem for the first 5% or so of a fight to let the tank gain a good threat cushion on you. But our tank doesnt even generally have WF, and I have few aggro issues, so I don't see why people are saying hamstring and heroic strike are mutually exclusive at all. Yes, I hamstring when I can, but I use HS a hell of a lot more times over a boss fight.
Does anyone know just how much the speed of the main hand effects DPS?
I'm asking because I'm currently using Fang of Vashj and Tracker's Blade (1.7 = dagger norm speed) and I have no idea if dropping Fang of Vashj for Rising Tide is worth the loss of the the daggers skills equip that is also applied to my OH for the slight DPS upgrade and slower speed upgrade of Rising Tide.
edit: link to Rising Tide for reference: Rising Tide - Items - World of Warcraft
I'm asking because I'm currently using Fang of Vashj and Tracker's Blade (1.7 = dagger norm speed) and I have no idea if dropping Fang of Vashj for Rising Tide is worth the loss of the the daggers skills equip that is also applied to my OH for the slight DPS upgrade and slower speed upgrade of Rising Tide.
edit: link to Rising Tide for reference: Rising Tide - Items - World of Warcraft
This might have been answered some where else on these boards but my searchfu has failed me in finding it.
Has anyone done the math to figure out at what point Rampage becomes not worth it? Being a non scaling ability there is some point at which the GCDs you use to put it up and keep it up would generate more overall DPS if you used them on something else.
Has anyone done the math to figure out at what point Rampage becomes not worth it? Being a non scaling ability there is some point at which the GCDs you use to put it up and keep it up would generate more overall DPS if you used them on something else.
AP does scale with ur crit/hit/WF/BT/Haste etc...
What else would you get ? It's only one point and you've gone all the way down there to pick up Imp zerk stance which does scale. 250 AP for 1 point is pretty cheap.
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Originally Posted by Sorcerer
AP does scale with ur crit/hit/WF/BT/Haste etc...
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What I'm getting at is that at some point, gear wise, the GCDs you spend on putting up and keeping up Rampage will generate more overall DPS by using them on damage abilities.
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Originally Posted by Zakath
What else would you get ? It's only one point and you've gone all the way down there to pick up Imp zerk stance which does scale. 250 AP for 1 point is pretty cheap.
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Remember how the original Eviserate (also a non scaling ability) used to be for rogues? After thier white DPS reached ~160 using it was actually reducing thier DPS. Rampage is flawed in the exact same way - at some point gear upgrades will make it completely irrelevent.
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Originally Posted by Darkmyst
That doesn't make Rampage's flat 250 AP scale. 250 AP is always 250 AP. I wasn't asking about AP scaling, I'm asking about Rampage.
What I'm getting at is that at some point, gear wise, the GCDs you spend on putting up and keeping up Rampage will generate more overall DPS by using them on damage abilities. |
I just personally see it that the 30 second period is to short in comparison to the rage/use of a GCD/5 attacks. I would be all for increasing the rage to say 30/35/40 and increasing the period of time to 1min. That would mean that you would only be using 1 GD a minute rather then 2.
Thanks Yag for the information, I can't believe I missed your post up there (I had done a search but not found anything relevant to what I was asking on the boards).
Let me know how it goes in your testing, I look forward to it!
Let me know how it goes in your testing, I look forward to it!
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Originally Posted by Darkmyst
That doesn't make Rampage's flat 250 AP scale. 250 AP is always 250 AP. I wasn't asking about AP scaling, I'm asking about Rampage.
What I'm getting at is that at some point, gear wise, the GCDs you spend on putting up and keeping up Rampage will generate more overall DPS by using them on damage abilities. |
250AP is always 250AP but the DPS gained is different for each situation this way ur rampage is "doing" more dps the better ur gear gets.
There are also not that many skills using GCD as DW fury except spamstring whereas it might happen that hamstring > rampage but than u would need insane weapon dmg to make that 1/5 chance to proc WF be better than 250AP for 30sec.
An interesting question I have thought about along the same lines to your point Darkmyst is if a 0/31/30 build would actually scale better than 17/44/0 as gear improved?
I don't have the math background to run the theorycraft, but my hypothesis is that in terms of scaling, the AP bonues deep in the fury tree could be offset by the 10% bonus of one handed weapon spec as AP gets higher.
Hmm, thinking about it more, this is overly simplistic. There are many variables to consider, like up time of Rampage, the boost to your BT damage as well as the buff to your white damge from the AP talents, etc. It would be interesting to attempt to graph this out though and see if there is a point where one of the specs out paces the other.
I don't have the math background to run the theorycraft, but my hypothesis is that in terms of scaling, the AP bonues deep in the fury tree could be offset by the 10% bonus of one handed weapon spec as AP gets higher.
Hmm, thinking about it more, this is overly simplistic. There are many variables to consider, like up time of Rampage, the boost to your BT damage as well as the buff to your white damge from the AP talents, etc. It would be interesting to attempt to graph this out though and see if there is a point where one of the specs out paces the other.
An interesting question is if 0/20/41 with great MH , great crit + hit + shamman WF would be better than 17/44 for DPS.
Devastate spam with haste items and WF could be devastating as long as u would have rogue to expose armor.
Last time i was prot i had really nice DPS with my DW gear and windfury. But that was quite some time ago where my gear was much worse than now. I could sustain 650DPS back than.
Atm i upgraded a lot gear along with DST, new MH/OH and shitloads of AP.
Devastate spam with haste items and WF could be devastating as long as u would have rogue to expose armor.
Last time i was prot i had really nice DPS with my DW gear and windfury. But that was quite some time ago where my gear was much worse than now. I could sustain 650DPS back than.
Atm i upgraded a lot gear along with DST, new MH/OH and shitloads of AP.
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Originally Posted by Sorcerer
Devastate spam with haste items and WF could be devastating as long as u would have rogue to expose armor.
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An interesting question is if 0/20/41 with great MH , great crit + hit + shamman WF would be better than 17/44 for DPS. Devastate spam with haste items and WF could be devastating as long as u would have rogue to expose armor. Last time i was prot i had really nice DPS with my DW gear and windfury. But that was quite some time ago where my gear was much worse than now. I could sustain 650DPS back than. Atm i upgraded a lot gear along with DST, new MH/OH and shitloads of AP. |
P.S. I posted the crap about the possibility of a 25/36/0 build on the WoW forums... guess i gotta go there from time to time to remind myself why i am happier not going there, and having my general chat turned off.
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Originally Posted by Suesse
If a rogue exposes armor, you lose 5*35 damage per devastate (pre-armor), right? That seems bad.
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Havent been prot for quite some time now. Anyway devastate spam shouldnt be that much agro considering that me well geared use heroic too often in raid enviroment anyway to dump rage even with spamstring.
When i get some money ill try it out in SSC or TK and post results
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Originally Posted by Sorcerer
250AP is always 250AP but the DPS gained is different for each situation this way ur rampage is "doing" more dps the better ur gear gets.
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250 AP adds 17.86 white DPS to each hand and it causes a 2.40 SPD (assuming sword or mace) normalized add to WWs damage. And it adds 112.5 damage to Bloodthirst. Always. Gear does not change that in the slightest.
| There are also not that many skills using GCD as DW fury except spamstring whereas it might happen that hamstring > rampage but than u would need insane weapon dmg to make that 1/5 chance to proc WF be better than 250AP for 30sec. |
Rough back of napkin math over lunch pizza follows.
I looked at it over 100 seconds and assumed Rampage was refreshed every 25 seconds and that the first GCD in the 100 seconds was used ot refresh rampage - so we can get in 9 WW and 16 Bloodthirsts in that time. I based all calcs off using The Decapitator as the main hand.
Rampage can be looked at additively since AP does nothing more than add DPS.
Over 100 seconds 250 AP adds (I used a 33% crit rate for these calcs)
4750 White DMG
513 total dmg added to the 9 WWs
1800 total dmg added to the 16 BTs
7657 total dmg added by rampage over the course of 100 seconds. Note: I didn't not figure in the damage added to WF procs from normal hits and spamstring. I need to figure this in when I have more time.
vs.
Using slam with a Decapitator and assuming 3000 AP and 33% crit rate
5297.7 Damage if we used slam for those 5 GCDs we'd have used on Rampage.
1172.4 DMG on average for the additional WF proc those slams would create.
6470.1 DMG done using Slam instead of Rampage.
Now this is admittedly incomplete math - I don't account for the DPS Ramapge adds to normal melee and spamstring produced WF procs over that 100 seconds in the first set of calcs. Also it doesn't account for the impact on DPS that using slam will have vs. using Ramapge (which doesn't affect the swing timer).
But the numbers are closer than I would have thought. And given that 3000 AP and Decapitator are from current end game standards I wouldn't be surprised at all if it's possible for warriors to reach a gear level where, no matter how sloppy they are with the swing timer and slam, that replacing Rampage with slam is the way to go beacuase while the slam numbers will only go up as your gear gets better the DPS 250 AP adds will always be the same.
Edited onPatch 2.1.3
Your math is flawed.
It lacks how much dmg u would gain with more hit / less hit etc...
Extra procs like my dragonstrike and dragonspine trophy + Hyjal/BT haste items would add a lot more white dmg with extra 250AP than GCD used on slam/hamstring.
Last time i did recap parsing about month ago my white dmg was at around 63-65% of total dmg. It probably went higher now since i got dragonstrike/dragonspine to around 70-75%.
Will do some parsing later when we go to SSC.
PS. Did u math lost white swings in ur slam math?
PS2. Slam for DW fury with something around my gear is EXTREME dps loss.
Uptime of haste procs is huge. I wish i had T5 head with haste meta + hyjal trash mace with gloves now. My 2.7s MH with Flurry + DST + mace is at 1.23 speed.
It lacks how much dmg u would gain with more hit / less hit etc...
Extra procs like my dragonstrike and dragonspine trophy + Hyjal/BT haste items would add a lot more white dmg with extra 250AP than GCD used on slam/hamstring.
Last time i did recap parsing about month ago my white dmg was at around 63-65% of total dmg. It probably went higher now since i got dragonstrike/dragonspine to around 70-75%.
Will do some parsing later when we go to SSC.
PS. Did u math lost white swings in ur slam math?
PS2. Slam for DW fury with something around my gear is EXTREME dps loss.
Uptime of haste procs is huge. I wish i had T5 head with haste meta + hyjal trash mace with gloves now. My 2.7s MH with Flurry + DST + mace is at 1.23 speed.
Last edited by Sorcerer : 08/02/07 at 3:21 PM.
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Originally Posted by Sorcerer
Your math is flawed.
PS. Did u math lost white swings in ur slam math? |
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PS2. Slam for DW fury with something around my gear is EXTREME dps loss. Uptime of haste procs is huge. I wish i had T5 head with haste meta + hyjal trash mace with gloves now. My 2.7s MH with Flurry + DST + mace is at 1.23 speed. |
Edited onPatch 2.1.3
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Originally Posted by Darkmyst
I said in the post I didn't and that I also had to figure in the impact of 250 AP on WF procs produced via normal swings and hamstring spam. Like I said, this is admittedly incomplete math.
The effect it would have when taking haste into account was something that didn't occur to me until after making the post. And I'll admit when I thought about how to figure that in my initial response was "Ugh, not sure I want to dig that deep into this." |
Last edited by Hidden : 08/02/07 at 10:23 PM.
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Originally Posted by Hidden
From what you're writing you don't look like you're having a clue about Fury Warriors yourself. There's a simple priority system involved in playing a Fury Warrior.
1. Priority: Bloodthirst(6 sec. Cooldown) 2. Priority: Rampage(need to renew every ~27 seconds) 3. Priority: Whirlwind(depending on spec 8-10 sec. cooldown) Every Warrior with at least quested Fury equip can keep these abilities on cooldown, and holding these on cooldown you only have a GCD 1,5/6+1,5/27+1,5/10=0,45 meaning 45% of the time. If you don't fill the rest with Harmstrings you're only wasting damage. For example with a standard setup Harmstring can procc Windfury, Mongoose, Flurry and Dragonspine Trophy/Tsunami Talisman/Hourglass with a pretty good chance each. Heroic Strike is nowhere near the Damage/Rage of Harmstring and so Harmstring should take priority over it. Your Fury Warrior doesn't use Harmstring at all while he's spamming Heroic Strike so he's simply wasting damage he could possibly do. |
1: It will never miss with more than 8.6% hit.
2: Never glances.
3: 20% crit damage bonus from impale.
The benefit to using heroic strike over hamstring in the priority isn't the 186 extra damage it does, it's the three points I outlined above.
Yes, Heroic is good for the reasons you listed, but Hamstring is better as long as you have Windfury. It doesn't really matter though as one is an instant and the other is next attack. If you're just worried about threat, you simply need to figure out how much damage per threat you are getting from Hamfury. I'm not sure if the extra attack from Windfury is normalized or not either. I was under the assumption that it wasn't.
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Originally Posted by Graul
Yes, Heroic is good for the reasons you listed, but Hamstring is better as long as you have Windfury. It doesn't really matter though as one is an instant and the other is next attack. If you're just worried about threat, you simply need to figure out how much damage per threat you are getting from Hamfury. I'm not sure if the extra attack from Windfury is normalized or not either. I was under the assumption that it wasn't.
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When I get a 180 dps one hander, I'll get one hand spec. Until then, I'll stick with rampage.
Some points:
1. You don't always have windfury but you could potentially always have rampage.
2. I've never even tried slam spam as DW. I have switched to a build built around stance dance overpowering to add another instant attack. The loss of rage is almost irrelevant and you get fairly regular dodges when you attack frequently.
3. 10% more 1 hand damage is partially matched by 10% more ap. Then, rampage merely has to match 10% of your weapon damage its self. This is where 180 dps one hander comes from. This does not count the loss of any other top fury talents. Obviously, 30 pts in prot would result in better tank prowess.
4. Without spamstring and factoring in 1 OP every 20 seconds, I'm at roughly 60% of the GCD cap. Depending on latency, you can approach the GCD cap, so a well thought out cycle/approach has a reasonable amount of GCDs to keep rampage up.
Some points:
1. You don't always have windfury but you could potentially always have rampage.
2. I've never even tried slam spam as DW. I have switched to a build built around stance dance overpowering to add another instant attack. The loss of rage is almost irrelevant and you get fairly regular dodges when you attack frequently.
3. 10% more 1 hand damage is partially matched by 10% more ap. Then, rampage merely has to match 10% of your weapon damage its self. This is where 180 dps one hander comes from. This does not count the loss of any other top fury talents. Obviously, 30 pts in prot would result in better tank prowess.
4. Without spamstring and factoring in 1 OP every 20 seconds, I'm at roughly 60% of the GCD cap. Depending on latency, you can approach the GCD cap, so a well thought out cycle/approach has a reasonable amount of GCDs to keep rampage up.
Well, I read through the thread and I didn't see much on this question so here goes:
What do you 33/28(or 31/30) warriors do when you get Bloodlust pre 20%?
Sometimes my guild likes to stack lusts into the melee group and this gives me problems.
I do the standard (white->slam, ms, white->slam, ww, etc) rotation but this all goes to hell in a handbasket if I get lust early as my auto attack timer drops to 2.2. I tend to simply fall into mashing ms/ww/hamstring and then popping in heroic strike when my rage gets too high but this seems very clunky and not the best use of the hasted time. Is it better to forgo ms/ww/hamstring completely and just time slams for after the auto attack swings?
What do you 33/28(or 31/30) warriors do when you get Bloodlust pre 20%?
Sometimes my guild likes to stack lusts into the melee group and this gives me problems.
I do the standard (white->slam, ms, white->slam, ww, etc) rotation but this all goes to hell in a handbasket if I get lust early as my auto attack timer drops to 2.2. I tend to simply fall into mashing ms/ww/hamstring and then popping in heroic strike when my rage gets too high but this seems very clunky and not the best use of the hasted time. Is it better to forgo ms/ww/hamstring completely and just time slams for after the auto attack swings?
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Originally Posted by Durus
You're forgetting very large factors in heroic strike's damage.
1: It will never miss with more than 8.6% hit. 2: Never glances. 3: 20% crit damage bonus from impale. The benefit to using heroic strike over hamstring in the priority isn't the 186 extra damage it does, it's the three points I outlined above. |
I know the arguments you did there, but there are contra-arguments as well:
1. If you have good equip your point number 1 doesn't make a big difference at all.
2. It causes a large portion of extra aggro you should try to avoid.
3. It costs tons of rage as it stops your mainhand from generating rage.
I just wanted you to know that not using Harmstring at all is bad for a Fury Warriors DPS every way you look at it.
@Kaos: When I was 2h I switched to a simple Auto Attack/Slam rotation because the casting time of slam is being reduced as well and it's more rage efficient than spamming MS/WW.
Using hamstring when possible is nice, but it's never for me an either or proposition with heroic striking. With an enhancement shaman and a WF totem, I can HS quite frequently anyway, and have the rage to keep BT/WW/Rampage on cooldown, and toss in hamstring when my GCD is free. On some fights I end up with as little as 30% white damage due to being able to heroic strike so often. (Yes, of course replace a lot of those HS with cleave on some more aggro sensitive fights like Gurtogg, Void Reaver, etc.).
As far as avoiding HS due to threat, that's generally a non-issue. I can sustain 1600 DPS on a fight without pulling aggro consistently. A good thing on many fights is to have your shaman use TA totem for the first 5% or so of a fight to let the tank gain a good threat cushion on you. But our tank doesnt even generally have WF, and I have few aggro issues, so I don't see why people are saying hamstring and heroic strike are mutually exclusive at all. Yes, I hamstring when I can, but I use HS a hell of a lot more times over a boss fight.
As far as avoiding HS due to threat, that's generally a non-issue. I can sustain 1600 DPS on a fight without pulling aggro consistently. A good thing on many fights is to have your shaman use TA totem for the first 5% or so of a fight to let the tank gain a good threat cushion on you. But our tank doesnt even generally have WF, and I have few aggro issues, so I don't see why people are saying hamstring and heroic strike are mutually exclusive at all. Yes, I hamstring when I can, but I use HS a hell of a lot more times over a boss fight.
Does anyone know just how much the speed of the main hand effects DPS?
I'm asking because I'm currently using Fang of Vashj and Tracker's Blade (1.7 = dagger norm speed) and I have no idea if dropping Fang of Vashj for Rising Tide is worth the loss of the the daggers skills equip that is also applied to my OH for the slight DPS upgrade and slower speed upgrade of Rising Tide.
edit: link to Rising Tide for reference: Rising Tide - Items - World of Warcraft
I'm asking because I'm currently using Fang of Vashj and Tracker's Blade (1.7 = dagger norm speed) and I have no idea if dropping Fang of Vashj for Rising Tide is worth the loss of the the daggers skills equip that is also applied to my OH for the slight DPS upgrade and slower speed upgrade of Rising Tide.
edit: link to Rising Tide for reference: Rising Tide - Items - World of Warcraft
I have a quick question. Wich gloves are better out of Pillager's Gauntlets and Grips of Silent Justice. I have both but not sure wich ones to use as this is the one the few items where you choose between haste and -armor -.^
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Originally Posted by Davia
(Yes, of course replace a lot of those HS with cleave on some more aggro sensitive fights like Gurtogg, Void Reaver, etc.).
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Originally Posted by NayNay
I have a quick question. Wich gloves are better out of Pillager's Gauntlets and Grips of Silent Justice. I have both but not sure wich ones to use as this is the one the few items where you choose between haste and -armor -.^
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Originally Posted by Hidden
From what you're writing you don't look like you're having a clue about Fury Warriors yourself. There's a simple priority system involved in playing a Fury Warrior.
1. Priority: Bloodthirst(6 sec. Cooldown) 2. Priority: Rampage(need to renew every ~27 seconds) 3. Priority: Whirlwind(depending on spec 8-10 sec. cooldown) |
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Originally Posted by Darkrenown
Are you not better swapping WW and BT there since WW has a longer CD?
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Originally Posted by Darkrenown
Are you not better swapping WW and BT there since WW has a longer CD?
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If you want to do the lazy fury warrior's easy DPS method get a G15 keyboard and create a macro with your skills in the following order (presedence)
Victory Rush
Bloodrage
Execute
Beserker Rage
Whirlwind
Bloodthirst
Hamstring
And you'd probably want to create one without WW in it for those times when AE is bad.
With 1/2 Imp Whirlwind you can perform a rotation of WW > BT > BT > WW > BT > restart, filling spare GCD's with instants.
Does anyone have any real world data from Pillager's V. Silent Justice? The spreadsheet does not do it for me.
Thanks
Thanks
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Originally Posted by Hozz
Does anyone have any real world data from Pillager's V. Silent Justice? The spreadsheet does not do it for me.
Thanks |
In a "real world" test the randomness involved will outdo the difference of the two gloves by a large margin so your only option is theorycraft in form of a spreadsheet.
By the way, does anyone have a spreadsheet for BC? In the Warrior Spreadsheet thread I could only find one pre-BC or did I miss something?
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Originally Posted by Charsi
With 1/2 Imp Whirlwind you can perform a rotation of WW > BT > BT > WW > BT > restart, filling spare GCD's with instants.
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Has anyone else had they're cycle get messed up due to small amounts of lag? I'm talking ~150ms or so, what I thought was a small enough amount to not screw up a warrior rotation.
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Originally Posted by Hidden
What do you mean by real world data?
In a "real world" test the randomness involved will outdo the difference of the two gloves by a large margin so your only option is theorycraft in form of a spreadsheet. By the way, does anyone have a spreadsheet for BC? In the Warrior Spreadsheet thread I could only find one pre-BC or did I miss something? |
Not sure what the status is for on -AC for that.
Edited onPatch 2.1.3
How much hit rating is optimum for a cookie-cutter 17/44/0 dual-wielding warrior? I know most combat rogues stack a lot, some as much as 300 hit rating. And that's with 2% more +hit from talents than a warrior. But while they are limited by energy, a warrior has no problem with rage and is limited by cooldowns and threat.
So is stacking that much hit rating less effective than stacking AP/crit? Does how much hit rating is optimum depend on how much TPS the tank is generating?
[EDIT:] I found that this post answers most of these questions. http://elitistjerks.com/f31/t12667-d...ely_overrated/
So is stacking that much hit rating less effective than stacking AP/crit? Does how much hit rating is optimum depend on how much TPS the tank is generating?
[EDIT:] I found that this post answers most of these questions. http://elitistjerks.com/f31/t12667-d...ely_overrated/
Last edited by gemmanite : 08/04/07 at 3:50 PM.
Edited onPatch 2.1.3
Haste and Armor Penetration
My guild recently got into BT and cleared out the three loot bags. I'm the only DPS warr in the group, and I'm trying to get a better understanding of how I should itemize. My most recent question is if I should be using Pillager's Gauntlets over Grips of Silent Justice and how haste stacks up against armor penetration. I've been using Pillager's for mostly everything since the majority of our mobs are Bear-tanked, then switch to GoSJ for fights involving mostly sundered targets since it's the only armor pen. piece I have.
Last edited by Bakatora : 08/04/07 at 4:26 PM.
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Originally Posted by Apate
http://elitistjerks.com/412012-post1414.html
Not sure what the status is for on -AC for that. |
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Originally Posted by Bakatora
My guild recently got into BT and cleared out the three loot bags. I'm the only DPS warr in the group, and I'm trying to get a better understanding of how I should itemize. My most recent question is if I should be using Pillager's Gauntlets over Grips of Silent Justice and how haste stacks up against armor penetration. I've been using Pillager's for mostly everything since the majority of our mobs are Bear-tanked, then switch to GoSJ for fights involving mostly sundered targets since it's the only armor pen. piece I have.
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Originally Posted by Roflobster
You really should get at least one warrior to sunder, or a rogue to expose with 2/2 talent.
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Originally Posted by NayNay
I have a quick question. Wich gloves are better out of Pillager's Gauntlets and Grips of Silent Justice. I have both but not sure wich ones to use as this is the one the few items where you choose between haste and -armor -.^
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Originally Posted by Hozz
Does anyone have any real world data from Pillager's V. Silent Justice? The spreadsheet does not do it for me.
Thanks |
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Originally Posted by Bakatora
My guild recently got into BT and cleared out the three loot bags. I'm the only DPS warr in the group, and I'm trying to get a better understanding of how I should itemize. My most recent question is if I should be using Pillager's Gauntlets over Grips of Silent Justice and how haste stacks up against armor penetration. I've been using Pillager's for mostly everything since the majority of our mobs are Bear-tanked, then switch to GoSJ for fights involving mostly sundered targets since it's the only armor pen. piece I have.
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Originally Posted by Repeek
The spreadsheet is sorely outdated for BT/Hyjal gear.
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Originally Posted by Repeek
The spreadsheet is sorely outdated for BT/Hyjal gear.
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You can easily update the spreadsheet yourself, just add the items you need to the relevant sheet (if the items doesn't get into the selection lists you can insert rows in the middle of the item list if you don't know how to edit the selection lists).
The -AC mechanic is not in the list since that will depend on the AC of the mob, which is not modeled in the sheet. It should be fairly easy to include.
Ask in the sheet thread, maybe someon has done an upgraded version.
I've been running into an issue with my itemization. I recently picked up all of the trash drops available to me in BT and my crit rating is suffering. Choker of Serrated Blades, Swiftsteel Shoulders, Pillager's Gauntlets, and Band of Devastation all have attack power and haste or armor penetration, but no crit. I've had to re-gem my gear with crit over hit but it still isn't making up the difference. I'm sitting at ~25% crit in zerker stance with 213 hit rating, 1802 attack power (as fury), 175 -AC and 131 base haste rating.
Basically I'm asking if the haste rating and armor pen. is worth it. I'm not very excel-savvy.. so I don't think I can update the warrior spreadsheet on my own. QQ
In a raid environment, I always have an enhancement shaman and feral druid in my party.
In regards to the sundering mobs subject, trash usually dies too fast for me to stack more than 3 sunders, so I just BT/WW with my GCDs.
Basically I'm asking if the haste rating and armor pen. is worth it. I'm not very excel-savvy.. so I don't think I can update the warrior spreadsheet on my own. QQ
In a raid environment, I always have an enhancement shaman and feral druid in my party.
In regards to the sundering mobs subject, trash usually dies too fast for me to stack more than 3 sunders, so I just BT/WW with my GCDs.
All this talk of a DW Fury Warrior needing a Rage dump got me thinking about why Heroic Strike is used at all. Even DWing wouldn't Imp Slam be prefereable over Heroic Strike both in terms of DPS, dmg per Rage and threat?
HS only adds 208 dmg and eats up a white swing. With a slow MH like Black Planar Edge (2.7) and Quartz it should be relatively easy to time Slam after a white hit and you'd be doing far more than 208 damage. Slam's not normalised either so a 2.7 speed weapon will be getting a large benefit from your AP. Surely this must result in more DPS than HS spam.
Is there something I'm missing?
HS only adds 208 dmg and eats up a white swing. With a slow MH like Black Planar Edge (2.7) and Quartz it should be relatively easy to time Slam after a white hit and you'd be doing far more than 208 damage. Slam's not normalised either so a 2.7 speed weapon will be getting a large benefit from your AP. Surely this must result in more DPS than HS spam.
Is there something I'm missing?
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Originally Posted by Tweeti
All this talk of a DW Fury Warrior needing a Rage dump got me thinking about why Heroic Strike is used at all. Even DWing wouldn't Imp Slam be prefereable over Heroic Strike both in terms of DPS, dmg per Rage and threat?
HS only adds 208 dmg and eats up a white swing. With a slow MH like Black Planar Edge (2.7) and Quartz it should be relatively easy to time Slam after a white hit and you'd be doing far more than 208 damage. Slam's not normalised either so a 2.7 speed weapon will be getting a large benefit from your AP. Surely this must result in more DPS than HS spam. Is there something I'm missing? |
Even without even comparing the mechanics of crit versus armor penetration, the fact that Choker of Serrated Blades spends so much of its item budget on Stamina makes me hesitant to even say that's it's an upgrade over Pendant of the Perilous.
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Originally Posted by Ren
Even without even comparing the mechanics of crit versus armor penetration, the fact that Choker of Serrated Blades spends so much of its item budget on Stamina makes me hesitant to even say that's it's an upgrade over Pendant of the Perilous.
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Would it worth it, to switch to a two hander and slam away 75 rage?
I have a quick question. Wich gloves are better out of Pillager's Gauntlets and Grips of Silent Justice. I have both but not sure wich ones to use as this is the one the few items where you choose between haste and -armor -.^
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Originally Posted by Davia
(Yes, of course replace a lot of those HS with cleave on some more aggro sensitive fights like Gurtogg, Void Reaver, etc.).
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Originally Posted by NayNay
I have a quick question. Wich gloves are better out of Pillager's Gauntlets and Grips of Silent Justice. I have both but not sure wich ones to use as this is the one the few items where you choose between haste and -armor -.^
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Originally Posted by Hidden
From what you're writing you don't look like you're having a clue about Fury Warriors yourself. There's a simple priority system involved in playing a Fury Warrior.
1. Priority: Bloodthirst(6 sec. Cooldown) 2. Priority: Rampage(need to renew every ~27 seconds) 3. Priority: Whirlwind(depending on spec 8-10 sec. cooldown) |
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Originally Posted by Darkrenown
Are you not better swapping WW and BT there since WW has a longer CD?
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Originally Posted by Darkrenown
Are you not better swapping WW and BT there since WW has a longer CD?
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If you want to do the lazy fury warrior's easy DPS method get a G15 keyboard and create a macro with your skills in the following order (presedence)
Victory Rush
Bloodrage
Execute
Beserker Rage
Whirlwind
Bloodthirst
Hamstring
And you'd probably want to create one without WW in it for those times when AE is bad.
With 1/2 Imp Whirlwind you can perform a rotation of WW > BT > BT > WW > BT > restart, filling spare GCD's with instants.
Does anyone have any real world data from Pillager's V. Silent Justice? The spreadsheet does not do it for me.
Thanks
Thanks
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Originally Posted by Hozz
Does anyone have any real world data from Pillager's V. Silent Justice? The spreadsheet does not do it for me.
Thanks |
In a "real world" test the randomness involved will outdo the difference of the two gloves by a large margin so your only option is theorycraft in form of a spreadsheet.
By the way, does anyone have a spreadsheet for BC? In the Warrior Spreadsheet thread I could only find one pre-BC or did I miss something?
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Originally Posted by Charsi
With 1/2 Imp Whirlwind you can perform a rotation of WW > BT > BT > WW > BT > restart, filling spare GCD's with instants.
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Has anyone else had they're cycle get messed up due to small amounts of lag? I'm talking ~150ms or so, what I thought was a small enough amount to not screw up a warrior rotation.
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Originally Posted by Hidden
What do you mean by real world data?
In a "real world" test the randomness involved will outdo the difference of the two gloves by a large margin so your only option is theorycraft in form of a spreadsheet. By the way, does anyone have a spreadsheet for BC? In the Warrior Spreadsheet thread I could only find one pre-BC or did I miss something? |
Not sure what the status is for on -AC for that.
Edited onPatch 2.1.3
How much hit rating is optimum for a cookie-cutter 17/44/0 dual-wielding warrior? I know most combat rogues stack a lot, some as much as 300 hit rating. And that's with 2% more +hit from talents than a warrior. But while they are limited by energy, a warrior has no problem with rage and is limited by cooldowns and threat.
So is stacking that much hit rating less effective than stacking AP/crit? Does how much hit rating is optimum depend on how much TPS the tank is generating?
[EDIT:] I found that this post answers most of these questions. http://elitistjerks.com/f31/t12667-d...ely_overrated/
So is stacking that much hit rating less effective than stacking AP/crit? Does how much hit rating is optimum depend on how much TPS the tank is generating?
[EDIT:] I found that this post answers most of these questions. http://elitistjerks.com/f31/t12667-d...ely_overrated/
Last edited by gemmanite : 08/04/07 at 3:50 PM.
Edited onPatch 2.1.3
Haste and Armor Penetration
My guild recently got into BT and cleared out the three loot bags. I'm the only DPS warr in the group, and I'm trying to get a better understanding of how I should itemize. My most recent question is if I should be using Pillager's Gauntlets over Grips of Silent Justice and how haste stacks up against armor penetration. I've been using Pillager's for mostly everything since the majority of our mobs are Bear-tanked, then switch to GoSJ for fights involving mostly sundered targets since it's the only armor pen. piece I have.
Last edited by Bakatora : 08/04/07 at 4:26 PM.
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Originally Posted by Apate
http://elitistjerks.com/412012-post1414.html
Not sure what the status is for on -AC for that. |
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Originally Posted by Bakatora
My guild recently got into BT and cleared out the three loot bags. I'm the only DPS warr in the group, and I'm trying to get a better understanding of how I should itemize. My most recent question is if I should be using Pillager's Gauntlets over Grips of Silent Justice and how haste stacks up against armor penetration. I've been using Pillager's for mostly everything since the majority of our mobs are Bear-tanked, then switch to GoSJ for fights involving mostly sundered targets since it's the only armor pen. piece I have.
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Originally Posted by Roflobster
You really should get at least one warrior to sunder, or a rogue to expose with 2/2 talent.
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Originally Posted by NayNay
I have a quick question. Wich gloves are better out of Pillager's Gauntlets and Grips of Silent Justice. I have both but not sure wich ones to use as this is the one the few items where you choose between haste and -armor -.^
|
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Originally Posted by Hozz
Does anyone have any real world data from Pillager's V. Silent Justice? The spreadsheet does not do it for me.
Thanks |
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Originally Posted by Bakatora
My guild recently got into BT and cleared out the three loot bags. I'm the only DPS warr in the group, and I'm trying to get a better understanding of how I should itemize. My most recent question is if I should be using Pillager's Gauntlets over Grips of Silent Justice and how haste stacks up against armor penetration. I've been using Pillager's for mostly everything since the majority of our mobs are Bear-tanked, then switch to GoSJ for fights involving mostly sundered targets since it's the only armor pen. piece I have.
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Originally Posted by Repeek
The spreadsheet is sorely outdated for BT/Hyjal gear.
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Originally Posted by Repeek
The spreadsheet is sorely outdated for BT/Hyjal gear.
|
You can easily update the spreadsheet yourself, just add the items you need to the relevant sheet (if the items doesn't get into the selection lists you can insert rows in the middle of the item list if you don't know how to edit the selection lists).
The -AC mechanic is not in the list since that will depend on the AC of the mob, which is not modeled in the sheet. It should be fairly easy to include.
Ask in the sheet thread, maybe someon has done an upgraded version.
I've been running into an issue with my itemization. I recently picked up all of the trash drops available to me in BT and my crit rating is suffering. Choker of Serrated Blades, Swiftsteel Shoulders, Pillager's Gauntlets, and Band of Devastation all have attack power and haste or armor penetration, but no crit. I've had to re-gem my gear with crit over hit but it still isn't making up the difference. I'm sitting at ~25% crit in zerker stance with 213 hit rating, 1802 attack power (as fury), 175 -AC and 131 base haste rating.
Basically I'm asking if the haste rating and armor pen. is worth it. I'm not very excel-savvy.. so I don't think I can update the warrior spreadsheet on my own. QQ
In a raid environment, I always have an enhancement shaman and feral druid in my party.
In regards to the sundering mobs subject, trash usually dies too fast for me to stack more than 3 sunders, so I just BT/WW with my GCDs.
Basically I'm asking if the haste rating and armor pen. is worth it. I'm not very excel-savvy.. so I don't think I can update the warrior spreadsheet on my own. QQ
In a raid environment, I always have an enhancement shaman and feral druid in my party.
In regards to the sundering mobs subject, trash usually dies too fast for me to stack more than 3 sunders, so I just BT/WW with my GCDs.
All this talk of a DW Fury Warrior needing a Rage dump got me thinking about why Heroic Strike is used at all. Even DWing wouldn't Imp Slam be prefereable over Heroic Strike both in terms of DPS, dmg per Rage and threat?
HS only adds 208 dmg and eats up a white swing. With a slow MH like Black Planar Edge (2.7) and Quartz it should be relatively easy to time Slam after a white hit and you'd be doing far more than 208 damage. Slam's not normalised either so a 2.7 speed weapon will be getting a large benefit from your AP. Surely this must result in more DPS than HS spam.
Is there something I'm missing?
HS only adds 208 dmg and eats up a white swing. With a slow MH like Black Planar Edge (2.7) and Quartz it should be relatively easy to time Slam after a white hit and you'd be doing far more than 208 damage. Slam's not normalised either so a 2.7 speed weapon will be getting a large benefit from your AP. Surely this must result in more DPS than HS spam.
Is there something I'm missing?
|
Originally Posted by Tweeti
All this talk of a DW Fury Warrior needing a Rage dump got me thinking about why Heroic Strike is used at all. Even DWing wouldn't Imp Slam be prefereable over Heroic Strike both in terms of DPS, dmg per Rage and threat?
HS only adds 208 dmg and eats up a white swing. With a slow MH like Black Planar Edge (2.7) and Quartz it should be relatively easy to time Slam after a white hit and you'd be doing far more than 208 damage. Slam's not normalised either so a 2.7 speed weapon will be getting a large benefit from your AP. Surely this must result in more DPS than HS spam. Is there something I'm missing? |
Even without even comparing the mechanics of crit versus armor penetration, the fact that Choker of Serrated Blades spends so much of its item budget on Stamina makes me hesitant to even say that's it's an upgrade over Pendant of the Perilous.
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Originally Posted by Ren
Even without even comparing the mechanics of crit versus armor penetration, the fact that Choker of Serrated Blades spends so much of its item budget on Stamina makes me hesitant to even say that's it's an upgrade over Pendant of the Perilous.
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Would it worth it, to switch to a two hander and slam away 75 rage?
Does anyone have an up-to-date Warrior Spreadsheet?
Today I got a [Bloodsea Brigand's Vest] and don't know how to socket it yet, using Hit gems I could get the socket bonus and get my low hit a bit higher, but from what I've heard pure AP(meaning 8 Strength sockets) should be king.
Today I got a [Bloodsea Brigand's Vest] and don't know how to socket it yet, using Hit gems I could get the socket bonus and get my low hit a bit higher, but from what I've heard pure AP(meaning 8 Strength sockets) should be king.
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Originally Posted by Emeraude
Definitely should make the suggestion to switch Blood Frenzy and Imp Intercept or some other Fury Talent during WotLK beta when they're listening about talent suggestions, it's silly that the PvE DPS tree is being marginalized by the PvP tree.
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After the change to WF im wondering how this will affect a warriors DPS roll. I know arms was alot more reliant on WF, slam's procing it for the rage to slam more.
Now with the Changes to WF will this lead to more warriors returning to 17-44?
formyself i have found 17-44to be better then 33-28 for the simple reason we dont have any enhancment shamans. makes me sad but our recruiter wont take one.
Would be interesting to see the replies to this.
as to the question about the breastplate linked above, i was planning 2 x +4str +4crit gems and 1 4str 6 stam
Now with the Changes to WF will this lead to more warriors returning to 17-44?
formyself i have found 17-44to be better then 33-28 for the simple reason we dont have any enhancment shamans. makes me sad but our recruiter wont take one.
Would be interesting to see the replies to this.
as to the question about the breastplate linked above, i was planning 2 x +4str +4crit gems and 1 4str 6 stam
33/28 has the same role, providing +4% Physical DPS. That role however will not compete with pure DPS classes/specs on a personal DPS level, and it shouldn't.
You either take the plunge and be the debuff bot while enjoying your PvP, or you spec full fury for DPS, as it should be. Having the one spec to rule them all was silly.
I am rather concerned about the state of 2-hand PvE with this change, 2-hand Fury Warriors or otherwise.
You either take the plunge and be the debuff bot while enjoying your PvP, or you spec full fury for DPS, as it should be. Having the one spec to rule them all was silly.
I am rather concerned about the state of 2-hand PvE with this change, 2-hand Fury Warriors or otherwise.
Edited onPatch 2.1.3
Looking for some advice from other Warriors on using an Improved Slam DPS build ...
I'm running this build currently, a DPS/PvP build if you will. I'm wondering what type of DPS rotation will put out the best DPS, along with which weapon I should be using.
I'm also looking at what weapon I should use as well, right now the 2H Axe options I have are ...
[Gorehowl] + Savagery
[Lunar Crescent] + Savagery
[Ethereum Nexus-Reaver] + Savagery with +8 STR gem, and x2 +8 Critical Strike gems.
Thanks!
I'm running this build currently, a DPS/PvP build if you will. I'm wondering what type of DPS rotation will put out the best DPS, along with which weapon I should be using.
I'm also looking at what weapon I should use as well, right now the 2H Axe options I have are ...
[Gorehowl] + Savagery
[Lunar Crescent] + Savagery
[Ethereum Nexus-Reaver] + Savagery with +8 STR gem, and x2 +8 Critical Strike gems.
Thanks!
Last edited by Nurg : 08/10/07 at 9:10 AM.
Why not [Mooncleaver] rather than Lunar Crescent? 8 nethers aren't hard to get.
Mooncleaver > Ethereum Nexus-Reaver > Gorehowl.
Assuming the gems you mentioned and factoring the AP into the weapon's dps:
MC - 126.2dps. 2.35crit
nexus reaver. 124.6dps. 2.1 crit.
GH - 126.9dps. 1.3crit
GH has a slight higher dps, but a lower damage range, less crit and is slightly faster so worse for non-normalised attacks.
Mooncleaver > Ethereum Nexus-Reaver > Gorehowl.
Assuming the gems you mentioned and factoring the AP into the weapon's dps:
MC - 126.2dps. 2.35crit
nexus reaver. 124.6dps. 2.1 crit.
GH - 126.9dps. 1.3crit
GH has a slight higher dps, but a lower damage range, less crit and is slightly faster so worse for non-normalised attacks.
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Originally Posted by Darkrenown
Why not [Mooncleaver] rather than Lunar Crescent? 8 nethers aren't hard to get.
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I haven't played with a 2h in a while - might Endless Rage assist in mitigating the rage loss from WF on yellow hits? Obivously it's a big trade off in other areas.
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Originally Posted by Apate
I haven't played with a 2h in a while - might Endless Rage assist in mitigating the rage loss from WF on yellow hits? Obivously it's a big trade off in other areas.
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Just as a note on the windfury nerf for warriors:
It only affects BT/MS/WW/Hamstring. For 33/28 it's barely an issue in relation to rage as if you're keeping a rotation going 2 out of every 3 swings can still proc it.
White (can proc) -> Slam (can proc) -> Instant (can't proc) -> repeat
Doing Azgalor last night I still managed to stay rage capped, though there is a VERY noticable loss in the proc rate which I'm sure will translate to lost DPS as I was only able to sustain about 1200 on him.
It only affects BT/MS/WW/Hamstring. For 33/28 it's barely an issue in relation to rage as if you're keeping a rotation going 2 out of every 3 swings can still proc it.
White (can proc) -> Slam (can proc) -> Instant (can't proc) -> repeat
Doing Azgalor last night I still managed to stay rage capped, though there is a VERY noticable loss in the proc rate which I'm sure will translate to lost DPS as I was only able to sustain about 1200 on him.
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Originally Posted by Kiranat
Just as a note on the windfury nerf for warriors:
It only affects BT/MS/WW/Hamstring. For 33/28 it's barely an issue in relation to rage as if you're keeping a rotation going 2 out of every 3 swings can still proc it. White (can proc) -> Slam (can proc) -> Instant (can't proc) -> repeat Doing Azgalor last night I still managed to stay rage capped, though there is a VERY noticable loss in the proc rate which I'm sure will translate to lost DPS as I was only able to sustain about 1200 on him. |
Yep, just found that out too (haven't logged on yet today) and just came back to edit my post 
Also, not a bug.
WoW Forums -> Windfury nerf pulled?
Thanks for killing my spec Blizzard.
Also, not a bug.
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Ok, all. Here's a bit more for you all as far the reasoning why this fix wasn't in sooner and to clarify that this also is intended to affect Slam: With the release of The Burning Crusade, we had intended Windfury Totem to only work with normal auto-attacks and “on next swing” abilities such as Heroic Strike and Cleave. We uncovered the reason this fix did not work, and it was corrected with the Windfury Totem hotfix this week. At this time, Slam is intended to not work with Windfury Totem. We have no plans to return it to working with Windfury Totem. We just weren't as clear as we would have liked in our original statement so hopefully this clears things up for people a bit more. |
Thanks for killing my spec Blizzard.
Sorry it isnt a bug just now a blue posted in europian warrior forums stating that slam will not proc windfury.Have fun slamming.
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Originally Posted by Kaytor
I'm sorry but that's incorrect. Slam can't proc windfury right now. Through this shouldn't be the case, it's a bug in the hotfix.
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WoW Forums -> Windfury nerf pulled?
Read all the blue responses there.
So is it pretty safe to say MS/Slam 2h warriors are just a dead raid spec now? Will lesser geared warriors (Kara gear, etc) be better of going DW Fury?
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Originally Posted by Althir
So is it pretty safe to say MS/Slam 2h warriors are just a dead raid spec now? Will lesser geared warriors (Kara gear, etc) be better of going DW Fury?
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So, with the WF change, if you crit often enough to keep Flurry up, there isn't any reason to use harmstring at all then, right ?
Edited onPatch 2.1.3
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Originally Posted by Zakath
So, with the WF change, if you crit often enough to keep Flurry up, there isn't any reason to use harmstring at all then, right ?
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Edit: In reference to 2h.
Last edited by Kiranat : 08/10/07 at 1:14 PM.
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Originally Posted by Zakath
So, with the WF change, if you crit often enough to keep Flurry up, there isn't any reason to use harmstring at all then, right ?
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Originally Posted by Hozz
Well if you have a DST and a Dragonstrike its still worth it I am sure.
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Yeah, I run with Dragonstrike, Mongoose, and Thundering Skyfire Diamond (WTB DST drop ), so I was still using hamstring about as much as ever last night. As 17/44, the nerf didn't feel huge, maybe 70 dps or so pre-execute, I guess the execute range dps loss will be far higher though, due to the fact that you're basically using an instant every GCD <20%, and the fact that 100% of the extra WF rage gets converted to more dmg via execute in that range.
), so I was still using hamstring about as much as ever last night. As 17/44, the nerf didn't feel huge, maybe 70 dps or so pre-execute, I guess the execute range dps loss will be far higher though, due to the fact that you're basically using an instant every GCD <20%, and the fact that 100% of the extra WF rage gets converted to more dmg via execute in that range.Execute range DPS was pretty disgusting, so that part is easy to deal with. I've become accustomed to dying at 15% or so on the fights where we're trying to push DPS, and it goes without saying that surviving to the end with a lower avg DPS would do more damage overall.
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Ok, all. Here's a bit more for you all as far the reasoning why this fix wasn't in sooner and to clarify that this also is intended to affect Slam: With the release of The Burning Crusade, we had intended Windfury Totem to only work with normal auto-attacks and “on next swing” abilities such as Heroic Strike and Cleave. We uncovered the reason this fix did not work, and it was corrected with the Windfury Totem hotfix this week. At this time, Slam is intended to not work with Windfury Totem. We have no plans to return it to working with Windfury Totem. We just weren't as clear as we would have liked in our original statement so hopefully this clears things up for people a bit more. |
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Originally Posted by Kiranat
Pretty much.
Edit: In reference to 2h. |
Edited onPatch 2.1.3
With the new WF change, I am facing a dilema.
Because instant attacks no longer proc windfury, there is no difference in windfury damage between a fast or slow MH weapon.
Overpower, Whirlwind, and Cleave will still benefit from a slower MH weapons. Heroic strike +hit bonus also benefits a slower weapon more, since the +hit bonus you gain from it being a special attack produces less TPS on a slow weapon.
However, using two fast weapons (1.5) of equal speed is tempting me with a few advantages:
1) This will provide 4 hasted swings instead of 3, increasing white damage and rage
2) Better execute damage (However, I can always swap the faster weapon in at 19%)
3) Prism of Inner Calm - Items - World of Warcraft will benefit more from faster attacks. Currently I am still using a fetish of the sand reaver with 2.6/1.5 speed weapons. With two 1.5 weapons, I will have 1/3rd more MH swings, increasing the use of the threat proc. Previously, I've found the fetish to be more valuable because it is front-loaded and can be paired with cooldowns.
4) With the WF nerf, spamstring is less valuable. It can still improve flurry uptime, but the WF proc is gone. This means more rage spent using heroic strike, and a 1.5 speed weapon can dump it more quickly than 2.6 in situations where threat is not an issue.
Let me know what you guys think.
Edit: The particular weapons I am considering are (speeds fixed):
[Swiftsteel Bludgeon]
[Tracker's Blade]
[Rising Tide]
Because instant attacks no longer proc windfury, there is no difference in windfury damage between a fast or slow MH weapon.
Overpower, Whirlwind, and Cleave will still benefit from a slower MH weapons. Heroic strike +hit bonus also benefits a slower weapon more, since the +hit bonus you gain from it being a special attack produces less TPS on a slow weapon.
However, using two fast weapons (1.5) of equal speed is tempting me with a few advantages:
1) This will provide 4 hasted swings instead of 3, increasing white damage and rage
2) Better execute damage (However, I can always swap the faster weapon in at 19%)
3) Prism of Inner Calm - Items - World of Warcraft will benefit more from faster attacks. Currently I am still using a fetish of the sand reaver with 2.6/1.5 speed weapons. With two 1.5 weapons, I will have 1/3rd more MH swings, increasing the use of the threat proc. Previously, I've found the fetish to be more valuable because it is front-loaded and can be paired with cooldowns.
4) With the WF nerf, spamstring is less valuable. It can still improve flurry uptime, but the WF proc is gone. This means more rage spent using heroic strike, and a 1.5 speed weapon can dump it more quickly than 2.6 in situations where threat is not an issue.
Let me know what you guys think.
Edit: The particular weapons I am considering are (speeds fixed):
[Swiftsteel Bludgeon]
[Tracker's Blade]
[Rising Tide]
Last edited by Natural : 08/11/07 at 2:08 PM.
Does anyone have an up-to-date Warrior Spreadsheet?
Today I got a [Bloodsea Brigand's Vest] and don't know how to socket it yet, using Hit gems I could get the socket bonus and get my low hit a bit higher, but from what I've heard pure AP(meaning 8 Strength sockets) should be king.
Today I got a [Bloodsea Brigand's Vest] and don't know how to socket it yet, using Hit gems I could get the socket bonus and get my low hit a bit higher, but from what I've heard pure AP(meaning 8 Strength sockets) should be king.
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Originally Posted by Emeraude
Definitely should make the suggestion to switch Blood Frenzy and Imp Intercept or some other Fury Talent during WotLK beta when they're listening about talent suggestions, it's silly that the PvE DPS tree is being marginalized by the PvP tree.
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After the change to WF im wondering how this will affect a warriors DPS roll. I know arms was alot more reliant on WF, slam's procing it for the rage to slam more.
Now with the Changes to WF will this lead to more warriors returning to 17-44?
formyself i have found 17-44to be better then 33-28 for the simple reason we dont have any enhancment shamans. makes me sad but our recruiter wont take one.
Would be interesting to see the replies to this.
as to the question about the breastplate linked above, i was planning 2 x +4str +4crit gems and 1 4str 6 stam
Now with the Changes to WF will this lead to more warriors returning to 17-44?
formyself i have found 17-44to be better then 33-28 for the simple reason we dont have any enhancment shamans. makes me sad but our recruiter wont take one.
Would be interesting to see the replies to this.
as to the question about the breastplate linked above, i was planning 2 x +4str +4crit gems and 1 4str 6 stam
33/28 has the same role, providing +4% Physical DPS. That role however will not compete with pure DPS classes/specs on a personal DPS level, and it shouldn't.
You either take the plunge and be the debuff bot while enjoying your PvP, or you spec full fury for DPS, as it should be. Having the one spec to rule them all was silly.
I am rather concerned about the state of 2-hand PvE with this change, 2-hand Fury Warriors or otherwise.
You either take the plunge and be the debuff bot while enjoying your PvP, or you spec full fury for DPS, as it should be. Having the one spec to rule them all was silly.
I am rather concerned about the state of 2-hand PvE with this change, 2-hand Fury Warriors or otherwise.
Edited onPatch 2.1.3
Looking for some advice from other Warriors on using an Improved Slam DPS build ...
I'm running this build currently, a DPS/PvP build if you will. I'm wondering what type of DPS rotation will put out the best DPS, along with which weapon I should be using.
I'm also looking at what weapon I should use as well, right now the 2H Axe options I have are ...
[Gorehowl] + Savagery
[Lunar Crescent] + Savagery
[Ethereum Nexus-Reaver] + Savagery with +8 STR gem, and x2 +8 Critical Strike gems.
Thanks!
I'm running this build currently, a DPS/PvP build if you will. I'm wondering what type of DPS rotation will put out the best DPS, along with which weapon I should be using.
I'm also looking at what weapon I should use as well, right now the 2H Axe options I have are ...
[Gorehowl] + Savagery
[Lunar Crescent] + Savagery
[Ethereum Nexus-Reaver] + Savagery with +8 STR gem, and x2 +8 Critical Strike gems.
Thanks!
Last edited by Nurg : 08/10/07 at 9:10 AM.
Why not [Mooncleaver] rather than Lunar Crescent? 8 nethers aren't hard to get.
Mooncleaver > Ethereum Nexus-Reaver > Gorehowl.
Assuming the gems you mentioned and factoring the AP into the weapon's dps:
MC - 126.2dps. 2.35crit
nexus reaver. 124.6dps. 2.1 crit.
GH - 126.9dps. 1.3crit
GH has a slight higher dps, but a lower damage range, less crit and is slightly faster so worse for non-normalised attacks.
Mooncleaver > Ethereum Nexus-Reaver > Gorehowl.
Assuming the gems you mentioned and factoring the AP into the weapon's dps:
MC - 126.2dps. 2.35crit
nexus reaver. 124.6dps. 2.1 crit.
GH - 126.9dps. 1.3crit
GH has a slight higher dps, but a lower damage range, less crit and is slightly faster so worse for non-normalised attacks.
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Originally Posted by Darkrenown
Why not [Mooncleaver] rather than Lunar Crescent? 8 nethers aren't hard to get.
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I haven't played with a 2h in a while - might Endless Rage assist in mitigating the rage loss from WF on yellow hits? Obivously it's a big trade off in other areas.
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Originally Posted by Apate
I haven't played with a 2h in a while - might Endless Rage assist in mitigating the rage loss from WF on yellow hits? Obivously it's a big trade off in other areas.
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Just as a note on the windfury nerf for warriors:
It only affects BT/MS/WW/Hamstring. For 33/28 it's barely an issue in relation to rage as if you're keeping a rotation going 2 out of every 3 swings can still proc it.
White (can proc) -> Slam (can proc) -> Instant (can't proc) -> repeat
Doing Azgalor last night I still managed to stay rage capped, though there is a VERY noticable loss in the proc rate which I'm sure will translate to lost DPS as I was only able to sustain about 1200 on him.
It only affects BT/MS/WW/Hamstring. For 33/28 it's barely an issue in relation to rage as if you're keeping a rotation going 2 out of every 3 swings can still proc it.
White (can proc) -> Slam (can proc) -> Instant (can't proc) -> repeat
Doing Azgalor last night I still managed to stay rage capped, though there is a VERY noticable loss in the proc rate which I'm sure will translate to lost DPS as I was only able to sustain about 1200 on him.
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Originally Posted by Kiranat
Just as a note on the windfury nerf for warriors:
It only affects BT/MS/WW/Hamstring. For 33/28 it's barely an issue in relation to rage as if you're keeping a rotation going 2 out of every 3 swings can still proc it. White (can proc) -> Slam (can proc) -> Instant (can't proc) -> repeat Doing Azgalor last night I still managed to stay rage capped, though there is a VERY noticable loss in the proc rate which I'm sure will translate to lost DPS as I was only able to sustain about 1200 on him. |
Yep, just found that out too (haven't logged on yet today) and just came back to edit my post
Also, not a bug.
WoW Forums -> Windfury nerf pulled?
Thanks for killing my spec Blizzard.
Also, not a bug.
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Ok, all. Here's a bit more for you all as far the reasoning why this fix wasn't in sooner and to clarify that this also is intended to affect Slam: With the release of The Burning Crusade, we had intended Windfury Totem to only work with normal auto-attacks and “on next swing” abilities such as Heroic Strike and Cleave. We uncovered the reason this fix did not work, and it was corrected with the Windfury Totem hotfix this week. At this time, Slam is intended to not work with Windfury Totem. We have no plans to return it to working with Windfury Totem. We just weren't as clear as we would have liked in our original statement so hopefully this clears things up for people a bit more. |
Thanks for killing my spec Blizzard.
Sorry it isnt a bug just now a blue posted in europian warrior forums stating that slam will not proc windfury.Have fun slamming.
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Originally Posted by Kaytor
I'm sorry but that's incorrect. Slam can't proc windfury right now. Through this shouldn't be the case, it's a bug in the hotfix.
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WoW Forums -> Windfury nerf pulled?
Read all the blue responses there.
So is it pretty safe to say MS/Slam 2h warriors are just a dead raid spec now? Will lesser geared warriors (Kara gear, etc) be better of going DW Fury?
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Originally Posted by Althir
So is it pretty safe to say MS/Slam 2h warriors are just a dead raid spec now? Will lesser geared warriors (Kara gear, etc) be better of going DW Fury?
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So, with the WF change, if you crit often enough to keep Flurry up, there isn't any reason to use harmstring at all then, right ?
Edited onPatch 2.1.3
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Originally Posted by Zakath
So, with the WF change, if you crit often enough to keep Flurry up, there isn't any reason to use harmstring at all then, right ?
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Edit: In reference to 2h.
Last edited by Kiranat : 08/10/07 at 1:14 PM.
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Originally Posted by Zakath
So, with the WF change, if you crit often enough to keep Flurry up, there isn't any reason to use harmstring at all then, right ?
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Originally Posted by Hozz
Well if you have a DST and a Dragonstrike its still worth it I am sure.
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Yeah, I run with Dragonstrike, Mongoose, and Thundering Skyfire Diamond (WTB DST drop ), so I was still using hamstring about as much as ever last night. As 17/44, the nerf didn't feel huge, maybe 70 dps or so pre-execute, I guess the execute range dps loss will be far higher though, due to the fact that you're basically using an instant every GCD <20%, and the fact that 100% of the extra WF rage gets converted to more dmg via execute in that range.
), so I was still using hamstring about as much as ever last night. As 17/44, the nerf didn't feel huge, maybe 70 dps or so pre-execute, I guess the execute range dps loss will be far higher though, due to the fact that you're basically using an instant every GCD <20%, and the fact that 100% of the extra WF rage gets converted to more dmg via execute in that range.Execute range DPS was pretty disgusting, so that part is easy to deal with. I've become accustomed to dying at 15% or so on the fights where we're trying to push DPS, and it goes without saying that surviving to the end with a lower avg DPS would do more damage overall.
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Ok, all. Here's a bit more for you all as far the reasoning why this fix wasn't in sooner and to clarify that this also is intended to affect Slam: With the release of The Burning Crusade, we had intended Windfury Totem to only work with normal auto-attacks and “on next swing” abilities such as Heroic Strike and Cleave. We uncovered the reason this fix did not work, and it was corrected with the Windfury Totem hotfix this week. At this time, Slam is intended to not work with Windfury Totem. We have no plans to return it to working with Windfury Totem. We just weren't as clear as we would have liked in our original statement so hopefully this clears things up for people a bit more. |
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Originally Posted by Kiranat
Pretty much.
Edit: In reference to 2h. |
Edited onPatch 2.1.3
With the new WF change, I am facing a dilema.
Because instant attacks no longer proc windfury, there is no difference in windfury damage between a fast or slow MH weapon.
Overpower, Whirlwind, and Cleave will still benefit from a slower MH weapons. Heroic strike +hit bonus also benefits a slower weapon more, since the +hit bonus you gain from it being a special attack produces less TPS on a slow weapon.
However, using two fast weapons (1.5) of equal speed is tempting me with a few advantages:
1) This will provide 4 hasted swings instead of 3, increasing white damage and rage
2) Better execute damage (However, I can always swap the faster weapon in at 19%)
3) Prism of Inner Calm - Items - World of Warcraft will benefit more from faster attacks. Currently I am still using a fetish of the sand reaver with 2.6/1.5 speed weapons. With two 1.5 weapons, I will have 1/3rd more MH swings, increasing the use of the threat proc. Previously, I've found the fetish to be more valuable because it is front-loaded and can be paired with cooldowns.
4) With the WF nerf, spamstring is less valuable. It can still improve flurry uptime, but the WF proc is gone. This means more rage spent using heroic strike, and a 1.5 speed weapon can dump it more quickly than 2.6 in situations where threat is not an issue.
Let me know what you guys think.
Edit: The particular weapons I am considering are (speeds fixed):
[Swiftsteel Bludgeon]
[Tracker's Blade]
[Rising Tide]
Because instant attacks no longer proc windfury, there is no difference in windfury damage between a fast or slow MH weapon.
Overpower, Whirlwind, and Cleave will still benefit from a slower MH weapons. Heroic strike +hit bonus also benefits a slower weapon more, since the +hit bonus you gain from it being a special attack produces less TPS on a slow weapon.
However, using two fast weapons (1.5) of equal speed is tempting me with a few advantages:
1) This will provide 4 hasted swings instead of 3, increasing white damage and rage
2) Better execute damage (However, I can always swap the faster weapon in at 19%)
3) Prism of Inner Calm - Items - World of Warcraft will benefit more from faster attacks. Currently I am still using a fetish of the sand reaver with 2.6/1.5 speed weapons. With two 1.5 weapons, I will have 1/3rd more MH swings, increasing the use of the threat proc. Previously, I've found the fetish to be more valuable because it is front-loaded and can be paired with cooldowns.
4) With the WF nerf, spamstring is less valuable. It can still improve flurry uptime, but the WF proc is gone. This means more rage spent using heroic strike, and a 1.5 speed weapon can dump it more quickly than 2.6 in situations where threat is not an issue.
Let me know what you guys think.
Edit: The particular weapons I am considering are (speeds fixed):
[Swiftsteel Bludgeon]
[Tracker's Blade]
[Rising Tide]
Last edited by Natural : 08/11/07 at 2:08 PM.
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Originally Posted by Grayson Carlyle
What else are you going to use in your swing/slam, instant rotation? Every 4th set both MS and WW will be down. Obviously it's less tempting now so maybe the debuff lackey will be easier and just cast demo every 4th, and some battle shout every once in a while too.
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Originally Posted by Natural
4) With the WF nerf, spamstring is less valuable. It can still improve flurry uptime, but the WF proc is gone. This means more rage spent using heroic strike, and a 1.5 speed weapon can dump it more quickly than 2.6 in situations where threat is not an issue.
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I don't really know if you'd be better with a fast set of weapons, but when linkin them use "[item]<itemname>[/item"(but with the last bracket of course) so we don't need to follow links to see them
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Originally Posted by Natural
Edit: The particular weapons I am considering are: Swiftsteel Bludgeon - Items - World of Warcraft (2.6 speed) Rising Tide - Items - World of Warcraft (1.5 speed) Tracker's Blade - Items - World of Warcraft (1.5 speed) |
I use two [Swiftsteel Bludgeon]s as Fury, and it's pretty amazing how fast you can spend rage (1.34 speed with [Pillager's Gauntlets] and one [Band of Devastation]).
You dont have a better mainhand to use?
The mace is insane but i would'nt use it in my mainhand unless i previously had something very very bad.
The mace is insane but i would'nt use it in my mainhand unless i previously had something very very bad.
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Originally Posted by Paa
You dont have a better mainhand to use?
The mace is insane but i would'nt use it in my mainhand unless i previously had something very very bad. |
Edited onPatch 2.1.3
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Originally Posted by Emeraude
With the change to Windfury totem I'm curious about how a faster mainhand would perform in raids.
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The only time I could really see the mace being "bad" now would be in situations where you are needing as much AE damage through cleaves and whirlwind as possible. So in effect, this is another "Weapon normalization" happening. Haste has a larger effect the slower the weapon, but when considering a weapon like that, you'd have to do the math to show it's "bad" compared to a slower, same DPS main hander.
Last edited by Graul : 08/11/07 at 10:10 PM.
id like to see some numbers with using fast/fast with the same speed as well with this change, maybe Natural or someone can try out a few combinations?
I'm fairly certain that Modrack from <Juggernaut> is using [Swiftsteel Bludgeon] x2 (along with a ton of other haste gear, roughly 20% static haste last I checked).
I found the WWS parses from thier last Gorefiend kill.
Modrack - WWS
His Armory (though he is in pvp gear): The Armory
I found the WWS parses from thier last Gorefiend kill.
Modrack - WWS
His Armory (though he is in pvp gear): The Armory
Swiftsteel x2 on Archimonde, post WF nerf.
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Originally Posted by Ren
Swiftsteel x2 on Archimonde, post WF nerf.
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.Still, that fight is extremely warrior-favored since you basically have 100% DPS time on the boss, when you intercept him right after Air Burst and you zerk the fears.
Fine, disregard all the names below mine. I'm actually MT (armory) on all fights other than Archimonde and Mother Shahraz, so my DPS gear is sub-par to everyone else's in the raid. I linked it just to show the viability of two fast weapons.
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Originally Posted by Ren
Swiftsteel x2 on Archimonde, post WF nerf.
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Edited onPatch 2.1.3
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Originally Posted by Animosityftw
What DPS mod are you using in this shot?
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Originally Posted by ikillyouheal
Still, that fight is extremely warrior-favored since you basically have 100% DPS time on the boss, when you intercept him right after Air Burst and you zerk the fears.
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Last edited by Eloran : 08/12/07 at 5:42 PM.
I'm debating if passing on [Prism of Inner Calm] was a good idea. I use DST and Solarian's Sapphire as my two DW Fury Trinkets. Do any other warriors out there use it?
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Originally Posted by Roflobster
I'm debating if passing on [Prism of Inner Calm] was a good idea. I use DST and Solarian's Sapphire as my two DW Fury Trinkets. Do any other warriors out there use it?
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It's not that difficult to justify using it, -150 threat per crit on all crits is nice.
Prism + Blessing of Salvation is overkill.
Like I said, if you have salv already, there is no need to use the trinket. The amount of incoming damage on MTs from end-game bosses ensures them a solid aggro lock (provided once again that you have blessing of salvation).
Yes the trinket is nice on rare occasion, but not worth replacing DST or Sapphire.
Like I said, if you have salv already, there is no need to use the trinket. The amount of incoming damage on MTs from end-game bosses ensures them a solid aggro lock (provided once again that you have blessing of salvation).
Yes the trinket is nice on rare occasion, but not worth replacing DST or Sapphire.
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Originally Posted by Repeek
Prism + Blessing of Salvation is overkill.
Like I said, if you have salv already, there is no need to use the trinket. The amount of incoming damage on MTs from end-game bosses ensures them a solid aggro lock (provided once again that you have blessing of salvation). Yes the trinket is nice on rare occasion, but not worth replacing DST or Sapphire. |
Edited onPatch 2.1.3
You could simply cut out a ton of threat by never using Hamstring (180) and even Heroic if the weapons are truly that powerful. You would end up with a lot more white damage, more Windfury procs within the same amount of time. Although if you are having to give up abilities to use a weapon, you may as well just let a Rogue have both and stick with whatever weapons you had. While a Warrior could put them to good use, I don't believe we would be able to output as much damage as a Rogue would simply due to not having Feint or Vanish.
The Prism is not the answer to our threat issues, although I'm sure it has it's situational uses, it's not an all around great trinket I would always want equipped. It would also be much more useful with faster weapons. You would be doing less overall damage per crit over a slower weapon, but more crits within the same amount of time...which would mean more of a bigger threat reduction for about the same damage. So yeah, I guess the Prism would be good with the Glaives, but the Glaives would be better with a Rogue if you had to go that route.
The Prism is not the answer to our threat issues, although I'm sure it has it's situational uses, it's not an all around great trinket I would always want equipped. It would also be much more useful with faster weapons. You would be doing less overall damage per crit over a slower weapon, but more crits within the same amount of time...which would mean more of a bigger threat reduction for about the same damage. So yeah, I guess the Prism would be good with the Glaives, but the Glaives would be better with a Rogue if you had to go that route.
Last edited by Graul : 08/14/07 at 12:50 AM.
I dont know how more threat reduction is overkill. My gear currently is far from top of the line, but even still, I have to give our MT a solid 25-30k head start on threat before I start attacking. And even then I shoot straight up and ride our MT's threat constantly. And if I dont stop attacking a few times along the way for 5-10 secs I pull aggro. Our MT normally generates 1k tps, but when buffs like heroism+abacus haste trinket+deathwish+haste potion come into play... it just becomes ridiculous.
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Originally Posted by madrussian
I dont know how more threat reduction is overkill. My gear currently is far from top of the line, but even still, I have to give our MT a solid 25-30k head start on threat before I start attacking. And even then I shoot straight up and ride our MT's threat constantly. And if I dont stop attacking a few times along the way for 5-10 secs I pull aggro. Our MT normally generates 1k tps, but when buffs like heroism+abacus haste trinket+deathwish+haste potion come into play... it just becomes ridiculous.
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I'm in a similar position. When we blow all cooldowns I'm sitting at 90%+ of our MT's threat if not more and have to watch my aggro for the rest of the fight. If/when we go back to SSC to get new apps keys I'd pickup the Prism to try out.
I pulled aggro the other day on archimonde so i swapped in the trinket and never had aggro problems again. With salvation and the trinket (Not to mention the loss of a dps trinket) i was never ever close to the MT on threat.
I think archimonde is a great fight to use it on due to him being so insanely friendly to dps warriors.
I think archimonde is a great fight to use it on due to him being so insanely friendly to dps warriors.
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Originally Posted by Eloran
I've done quite a few attempts on Archimonde now as a DPS warrior, and while you can intercept back from bursts, I've found it to be very inconsistent and difficult to get the intercept off every time, even while spamming the keybind.
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Originally Posted by Graul
Probably better now that the main reason to even use a slower weapon was removed. You're going to get slightly smaller WF hits from a weapon like that mace, but you're also going to be getting a few more per minute as well as having a much smoother rate of incoming rage. Faster main hand weapons were always superior when threat was not an issue and rage was free flowing (but how many fights are there really like that?).
The only time I could really see the mace being "bad" now would be in situations where you are needing as much AE damage through cleaves and whirlwind as possible. So in effect, this is another "Weapon normalization" happening. Haste has a larger effect the slower the weapon, but when considering a weapon like that, you'd have to do the math to show it's "bad" compared to a slower, same DPS main hander. |
Still, it's by no means that horrible to use two fast weapons with the new WF change. Synched weapons, oddly enough, also got a huge boost - Windfury used to desynch the weapons when it procced, but now they'll both swing in unison, leading to effectively four charges of Flurry per crit instead of three.
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Originally Posted by Grayson Carlyle
What else are you going to use in your swing/slam, instant rotation? Every 4th set both MS and WW will be down. Obviously it's less tempting now so maybe the debuff lackey will be easier and just cast demo every 4th, and some battle shout every once in a while too.
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Originally Posted by Natural
4) With the WF nerf, spamstring is less valuable. It can still improve flurry uptime, but the WF proc is gone. This means more rage spent using heroic strike, and a 1.5 speed weapon can dump it more quickly than 2.6 in situations where threat is not an issue.
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I don't really know if you'd be better with a fast set of weapons, but when linkin them use "[item]<itemname>[/item"(but with the last bracket of course) so we don't need to follow links to see them
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Originally Posted by Natural
Edit: The particular weapons I am considering are: Swiftsteel Bludgeon - Items - World of Warcraft (2.6 speed) Rising Tide - Items - World of Warcraft (1.5 speed) Tracker's Blade - Items - World of Warcraft (1.5 speed) |
I use two [Swiftsteel Bludgeon]s as Fury, and it's pretty amazing how fast you can spend rage (1.34 speed with [Pillager's Gauntlets] and one [Band of Devastation]).
You dont have a better mainhand to use?
The mace is insane but i would'nt use it in my mainhand unless i previously had something very very bad.
The mace is insane but i would'nt use it in my mainhand unless i previously had something very very bad.
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Originally Posted by Paa
You dont have a better mainhand to use?
The mace is insane but i would'nt use it in my mainhand unless i previously had something very very bad. |
Edited onPatch 2.1.3
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Originally Posted by Emeraude
With the change to Windfury totem I'm curious about how a faster mainhand would perform in raids.
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The only time I could really see the mace being "bad" now would be in situations where you are needing as much AE damage through cleaves and whirlwind as possible. So in effect, this is another "Weapon normalization" happening. Haste has a larger effect the slower the weapon, but when considering a weapon like that, you'd have to do the math to show it's "bad" compared to a slower, same DPS main hander.
Last edited by Graul : 08/11/07 at 10:10 PM.
id like to see some numbers with using fast/fast with the same speed as well with this change, maybe Natural or someone can try out a few combinations?
I'm fairly certain that Modrack from <Juggernaut> is using [Swiftsteel Bludgeon] x2 (along with a ton of other haste gear, roughly 20% static haste last I checked).
I found the WWS parses from thier last Gorefiend kill.
Modrack - WWS
His Armory (though he is in pvp gear): The Armory
I found the WWS parses from thier last Gorefiend kill.
Modrack - WWS
His Armory (though he is in pvp gear): The Armory
Swiftsteel x2 on Archimonde, post WF nerf.
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Originally Posted by Ren
Swiftsteel x2 on Archimonde, post WF nerf.
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.Still, that fight is extremely warrior-favored since you basically have 100% DPS time on the boss, when you intercept him right after Air Burst and you zerk the fears.
Fine, disregard all the names below mine. I'm actually MT (armory) on all fights other than Archimonde and Mother Shahraz, so my DPS gear is sub-par to everyone else's in the raid. I linked it just to show the viability of two fast weapons.
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Originally Posted by Ren
Swiftsteel x2 on Archimonde, post WF nerf.
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Edited onPatch 2.1.3
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Originally Posted by Animosityftw
What DPS mod are you using in this shot?
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Originally Posted by ikillyouheal
Still, that fight is extremely warrior-favored since you basically have 100% DPS time on the boss, when you intercept him right after Air Burst and you zerk the fears.
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Last edited by Eloran : 08/12/07 at 5:42 PM.
I'm debating if passing on [Prism of Inner Calm] was a good idea. I use DST and Solarian's Sapphire as my two DW Fury Trinkets. Do any other warriors out there use it?
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Originally Posted by Roflobster
I'm debating if passing on [Prism of Inner Calm] was a good idea. I use DST and Solarian's Sapphire as my two DW Fury Trinkets. Do any other warriors out there use it?
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It's not that difficult to justify using it, -150 threat per crit on all crits is nice.
Prism + Blessing of Salvation is overkill.
Like I said, if you have salv already, there is no need to use the trinket. The amount of incoming damage on MTs from end-game bosses ensures them a solid aggro lock (provided once again that you have blessing of salvation).
Yes the trinket is nice on rare occasion, but not worth replacing DST or Sapphire.
Like I said, if you have salv already, there is no need to use the trinket. The amount of incoming damage on MTs from end-game bosses ensures them a solid aggro lock (provided once again that you have blessing of salvation).
Yes the trinket is nice on rare occasion, but not worth replacing DST or Sapphire.
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Originally Posted by Repeek
Prism + Blessing of Salvation is overkill.
Like I said, if you have salv already, there is no need to use the trinket. The amount of incoming damage on MTs from end-game bosses ensures them a solid aggro lock (provided once again that you have blessing of salvation). Yes the trinket is nice on rare occasion, but not worth replacing DST or Sapphire. |
Edited onPatch 2.1.3
You could simply cut out a ton of threat by never using Hamstring (180) and even Heroic if the weapons are truly that powerful. You would end up with a lot more white damage, more Windfury procs within the same amount of time. Although if you are having to give up abilities to use a weapon, you may as well just let a Rogue have both and stick with whatever weapons you had. While a Warrior could put them to good use, I don't believe we would be able to output as much damage as a Rogue would simply due to not having Feint or Vanish.
The Prism is not the answer to our threat issues, although I'm sure it has it's situational uses, it's not an all around great trinket I would always want equipped. It would also be much more useful with faster weapons. You would be doing less overall damage per crit over a slower weapon, but more crits within the same amount of time...which would mean more of a bigger threat reduction for about the same damage. So yeah, I guess the Prism would be good with the Glaives, but the Glaives would be better with a Rogue if you had to go that route.
The Prism is not the answer to our threat issues, although I'm sure it has it's situational uses, it's not an all around great trinket I would always want equipped. It would also be much more useful with faster weapons. You would be doing less overall damage per crit over a slower weapon, but more crits within the same amount of time...which would mean more of a bigger threat reduction for about the same damage. So yeah, I guess the Prism would be good with the Glaives, but the Glaives would be better with a Rogue if you had to go that route.
Last edited by Graul : 08/14/07 at 12:50 AM.
I dont know how more threat reduction is overkill. My gear currently is far from top of the line, but even still, I have to give our MT a solid 25-30k head start on threat before I start attacking. And even then I shoot straight up and ride our MT's threat constantly. And if I dont stop attacking a few times along the way for 5-10 secs I pull aggro. Our MT normally generates 1k tps, but when buffs like heroism+abacus haste trinket+deathwish+haste potion come into play... it just becomes ridiculous.
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Originally Posted by madrussian
I dont know how more threat reduction is overkill. My gear currently is far from top of the line, but even still, I have to give our MT a solid 25-30k head start on threat before I start attacking. And even then I shoot straight up and ride our MT's threat constantly. And if I dont stop attacking a few times along the way for 5-10 secs I pull aggro. Our MT normally generates 1k tps, but when buffs like heroism+abacus haste trinket+deathwish+haste potion come into play... it just becomes ridiculous.
|
I'm in a similar position. When we blow all cooldowns I'm sitting at 90%+ of our MT's threat if not more and have to watch my aggro for the rest of the fight. If/when we go back to SSC to get new apps keys I'd pickup the Prism to try out.
I pulled aggro the other day on archimonde so i swapped in the trinket and never had aggro problems again. With salvation and the trinket (Not to mention the loss of a dps trinket) i was never ever close to the MT on threat.
I think archimonde is a great fight to use it on due to him being so insanely friendly to dps warriors.
I think archimonde is a great fight to use it on due to him being so insanely friendly to dps warriors.
|
Originally Posted by Eloran
I've done quite a few attempts on Archimonde now as a DPS warrior, and while you can intercept back from bursts, I've found it to be very inconsistent and difficult to get the intercept off every time, even while spamming the keybind.
|
|
Originally Posted by Graul
Probably better now that the main reason to even use a slower weapon was removed. You're going to get slightly smaller WF hits from a weapon like that mace, but you're also going to be getting a few more per minute as well as having a much smoother rate of incoming rage. Faster main hand weapons were always superior when threat was not an issue and rage was free flowing (but how many fights are there really like that?).
The only time I could really see the mace being "bad" now would be in situations where you are needing as much AE damage through cleaves and whirlwind as possible. So in effect, this is another "Weapon normalization" happening. Haste has a larger effect the slower the weapon, but when considering a weapon like that, you'd have to do the math to show it's "bad" compared to a slower, same DPS main hander. |
Still, it's by no means that horrible to use two fast weapons with the new WF change. Synched weapons, oddly enough, also got a huge boost - Windfury used to desynch the weapons when it procced, but now they'll both swing in unison, leading to effectively four charges of Flurry per crit instead of three.
The desync will still happen though since WF won't stop proccing altogether 
Therefore you won't have a sync after the first procc from an non instant attack swing.
A rather bland question I must ask (though I don't dps in raids in general, being the MT - but knowing the other side of the business never hurts): is it right to assume that after this modification to WF the best rage dump for DW is spamming HS/Cleave, depending on threat and rage situation?
Therefore you won't have a sync after the first procc from an non instant attack swing. A rather bland question I must ask (though I don't dps in raids in general, being the MT - but knowing the other side of the business never hurts): is it right to assume that after this modification to WF the best rage dump for DW is spamming HS/Cleave, depending on threat and rage situation?
|
Originally Posted by Mem
The desync will still happen though since WF won't stop proccing altogether
Therefore you won't have a sync after the first procc from an non instant attack swing. |
| A rather bland question I must ask (though I don't dps in raids in general, being the MT - but knowing the other side of the business never hurts): is it right to assume that after this modification to WF the best rage dump for DW is spamming HS/Cleave, depending on threat and rage situation? |
rampage needs to have a threat addition to it like for each stack of it it's 2% less threat obviously going to 10% at 5 stacks of rampage. Even with salv I find myself having to stop dps or just auto attack for a while because i'm so close on threat.
I have to make our enhancement shaman run TA totem instead of WF fairly often due to threat issues. And our MT is very good with his TPS, it's just that on any fight where he needs to use avoidance/stam stacked gear instead of Block Value stuff for threat gen, I end up being pretty easily threat-capped, and I don't even have a DST, which I'm sure would increase my DPS and thus TPS by a non-insignificant amount. Reference last night's Gorefiend kill: WWS. I had to ask for TA totem for the first 10% of the fight, again for around 10-15% of the right around 60%, and again at 14%.
It seem like if you are so threat capped you actually have to just auto attack you would do more damage by using HS less and just waste rage. Seems like your goal should be to always keep BT and WW on cooldown, as these rage using attacks don't generate any bonus rage. Then, and only then, HS as your threat allows.
|
Originally Posted by Davia
I have to make our enhancement shaman run TA totem instead of WF fairly often due to threat issues. And our MT is very good with his TPS, it's just that on any fight where he needs to use avoidance/stam stacked gear instead of Block Value stuff for threat gen, I end up being pretty easily threat-capped, and I don't even have a DST, which I'm sure would increase my DPS and thus TPS by a non-insignificant amount. Reference last night's Gorefiend kill: WWS. I had to ask for TA totem for the first 10% of the fight, again for around 10-15% of the right around 60%, and again at 14%.
|
Also, have you tried using the Prism a few people have mentioned in this thread? On that WWS you provided you got 193 Critical Hits. Using the Prism, that should erase 28,950 damage worth of threat (converting into threat numbers is worthless, as the threat reduction on the Prism is also reduced by Salv/Tranquil Air/Battle Stance), which would be about 5% of your overall threat output ignoring the bonus threat from Heroic Strike (so, perhaps 4% is the better number). Not by any means an ideal solution, but far better than having to scale down damage.
Yeah, I'd love to get a Prism to try, but we rarely clear SSC and it has yet to drop.
Has anyone experimented with a pve fury sword spec build like this for example
Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft
been searching but so far only rogue forum hits
Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft
been searching but so far only rogue forum hits
|
Originally Posted by Barmbul
Has anyone experimented with a pve fury sword spec build like this for example
Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft been searching but so far only rogue forum hits |
Those points would be better served in parry or imp rend for all it matters.
Secondly, the loss of Rampage, improved execute and imp zerk stance cannot possibly be made up for by sword spec.
Its neat in theory, but no, just no.
When facing conditions of being threat capped to the point of being able to do little beyond BT/WW, I wonder if stacking +Hit may be an alternative method of gaining DPS. Since Heroic Strike and Hamstring both have some additional built in threat, stacking +Hit to increase white damage without the additional threat component could might prove beneficial.
Honestly one of your only choices is trying to get WF on the tank. This will help you dps higher moreso then any other solution.
|
Originally Posted by Davia
I have to make our enhancement shaman run TA totem instead of WF fairly often due to threat issues.
|
Toggling GoA/WF is old news, but this was a new combo for me. And a lot more beneficial.
|
Originally Posted by Davia
I had to ask for TA totem for the first 10% of the fight, again for around 10-15% of the right around 60%, and again at 14%.
|
Relentless Earthstorm Diamond - Items - World of Warcraft vs Thundering Skyfire Diamond - Items - World of Warcraft
I couldn't find any dps warrior specific info on these two.
The haste gem is about 24 static haste if it procs once a minute, against 12agi and 3% more damage on all your crits.
Wich to use?
I couldn't find any dps warrior specific info on these two.
The haste gem is about 24 static haste if it procs once a minute, against 12agi and 3% more damage on all your crits.
Wich to use?
Edited onPatch 2.1.3
Personally, I would think the comparisons should be between a Swift Skyfire Diamond and the Thundering Skyfire. Unless the Relentless is actually turning melee critical strikes into 209% damage instead of just 206% or even 203%.
This is also in the wrong thread, even if this thread seems to have lost it's own identity along the way.
This is also in the wrong thread, even if this thread seems to have lost it's own identity along the way.
Last edited by Graul : 08/15/07 at 7:00 AM.
I'm wondering if anybody could get a WWS posted up of some bosses pre-WF nerf and post-nerf. *Points at Celebrity warriors*. I know you guys run with a Fury Warrior and an Arms warrior so I'm kinda curious and would like to do some comparisons. I would do it myself but we wont be raiding next reset...
|
Originally Posted by NayNay
Relentless Earthstorm Diamond - Items - World of Warcraft vs Thundering Skyfire Diamond - Items - World of Warcraft
I couldn't find any dps warrior specific info on these two. The haste gem is about 24 static haste if it procs once a minute, against 12agi and 3% more damage on all your crits. Wich to use? |
Personaly, I went with the latter.
|
Originally Posted by Jamm
I'm wondering if anybody could get a WWS posted up of some bosses pre-WF nerf and post-nerf. *Points at Celebrity warriors*. I know you guys run with a Fury Warrior and an Arms warrior so I'm kinda curious and would like to do some comparisons. I would do it myself but we wont be raiding next reset...
|
good idea Jamm, I'd like to see some WWS from the people who used slam for DPSing and those who used spamstring, just to see what has changed.. cannings, serida, chocula, skru...
Wow Web Stats
Anetheron, chocula gets 1311 dps, slamming
1113 for skru with spamstring
Wow Web Stats
Serida gets 1301 with spamstring in gurtogg
pre-nerf
edit: eee... posted at the same time as Apate.. anyway Ill leave it here =/ but Ill check the other thread
Wow Web Stats
Anetheron, chocula gets 1311 dps, slamming
1113 for skru with spamstring
Wow Web Stats
Serida gets 1301 with spamstring in gurtogg
pre-nerf
edit: eee... posted at the same time as Apate.. anyway Ill leave it here =/ but Ill check the other thread
Does anyone know for a fact if Pummel has any hidden threat? If not I might start using it instead of hamstring whenever it's up as my "proc" instant. It doesn't have any listed threat in the Threat module, but that might just be an oversight.
Delete, wrong thread 
Edited onPatch 2.1.3
Okay may aswell do this in depth, here is comparisons between akama - illidan the week before and the week after the nerf
I don't like showing Akama wws's as it only shows the final stage but for comparison at least
Akama Pre: Loading...
Akama Post: Wow Web Stats
Gorefiend Pre: Loading...
Gorefiend Post: Wow Web Stats
Threat Capped Pre and Post on bloodboil so no change there
Bloodboil Pre: Wow Web Stats
Bloodboil Post: Wow Web Stats
No Point in doing ROS as WWS is the Anti-ROS
Shahraz Pre: Wow Web Stats
Shahraz Post: Wow Web Stats
Council Pre: Wow Web Stats
Council Post: Our WWS recorder swapped out this reset so haven't got a parse of post nerf
Again not a great fight to really test it on as theres no totems in phase 2 at all
Illidan Pre: Wow Web Stats
Illidan Post: Waiting for WWS recorder (DUKES PULL FINGER OUT) to upload the parse
To sum it up I felt like I was never a threat on threat (oO) except obviously on bloodboil where its just a warriors job to bite it @ 10%, if I didn't crit on my white autohit I found myself getting rage starved, windfury attacks actually suprised me when they happened and weren't part of my damage anymore. Personally I hate it, before the nerf I felt arms dps was a very niche skill, it took a lot of timing co-ordination and ability to be able to pull off a high sustained dps over a fight and when you did pull it off you felt good.
Now I look at my damage and i'm pretty ashamed, dropping down from top 5ish most the time to around 10th, i'm thinking of giving this dual swiftsteel bludgeon spec a try if they ever drop for us again, as I don't think the dps I lose as arms now is any longer justified by the 4% blood frenzy debuff, or I could just reroll a lock!
I don't like showing Akama wws's as it only shows the final stage but for comparison at least
Akama Pre: Loading...
Akama Post: Wow Web Stats
Gorefiend Pre: Loading...
Gorefiend Post: Wow Web Stats
Threat Capped Pre and Post on bloodboil so no change there
Bloodboil Pre: Wow Web Stats
Bloodboil Post: Wow Web Stats
No Point in doing ROS as WWS is the Anti-ROS
Shahraz Pre: Wow Web Stats
Shahraz Post: Wow Web Stats
Council Pre: Wow Web Stats
Council Post: Our WWS recorder swapped out this reset so haven't got a parse of post nerf
Again not a great fight to really test it on as theres no totems in phase 2 at all
Illidan Pre: Wow Web Stats
Illidan Post: Waiting for WWS recorder (DUKES PULL FINGER OUT) to upload the parse
To sum it up I felt like I was never a threat on threat (oO) except obviously on bloodboil where its just a warriors job to bite it @ 10%, if I didn't crit on my white autohit I found myself getting rage starved, windfury attacks actually suprised me when they happened and weren't part of my damage anymore. Personally I hate it, before the nerf I felt arms dps was a very niche skill, it took a lot of timing co-ordination and ability to be able to pull off a high sustained dps over a fight and when you did pull it off you felt good.
Now I look at my damage and i'm pretty ashamed, dropping down from top 5ish most the time to around 10th, i'm thinking of giving this dual swiftsteel bludgeon spec a try if they ever drop for us again, as I don't think the dps I lose as arms now is any longer justified by the 4% blood frenzy debuff, or I could just reroll a lock!
Last edited by Cannings : 08/15/07 at 10:43 AM.
Hey guys,
This is a bit offtopic from where the thread currently has led itself(hate teh WF nerf...), however I have some questions for a lot of you fury warriors. How do you guys deal with "rogue" weapons? (I.E. Slow MH daggers, swords, and fist weapons, and very fast OH weapons.)
Recently its come up in our guild and created some rogue drama. As GM I see both sides of the story and was wondering how other guilds deal with it.
Rogues:
Rogues are committed to one spec that favors one spefic type of weapon.
Rogues face a much higher dps increase from a slow MH, fast OH.
Rogue instants are based on MH dmg
With the WF nerf a slow MH isnt as important for a fury warrior anymore.
Warriors:
Still participate just as much in raids
Are still expected to bring huge dps numbers
Provide rogues with battle shout(yeah, its their job, but figure I'd list it)
So I was wondering how other fury warriors deal with "rogue weapons". Do you guys mainly look for maces and axes? Do you pass swords to sword rogues and daggers to dagger rogues always? Does the rogues attendance and history with the guild come in to play at all in your decisions? And are these personal views or guild loot enforced rules?
Thanks for your answers.
This is a bit offtopic from where the thread currently has led itself(hate teh WF nerf...), however I have some questions for a lot of you fury warriors. How do you guys deal with "rogue" weapons? (I.E. Slow MH daggers, swords, and fist weapons, and very fast OH weapons.)
Recently its come up in our guild and created some rogue drama. As GM I see both sides of the story and was wondering how other guilds deal with it.
Rogues:
Rogues are committed to one spec that favors one spefic type of weapon.
Rogues face a much higher dps increase from a slow MH, fast OH.
Rogue instants are based on MH dmg
With the WF nerf a slow MH isnt as important for a fury warrior anymore.
Warriors:
Still participate just as much in raids
Are still expected to bring huge dps numbers
Provide rogues with battle shout(yeah, its their job, but figure I'd list it)
So I was wondering how other fury warriors deal with "rogue weapons". Do you guys mainly look for maces and axes? Do you pass swords to sword rogues and daggers to dagger rogues always? Does the rogues attendance and history with the guild come in to play at all in your decisions? And are these personal views or guild loot enforced rules?
Thanks for your answers.
This is probably not helpful because we don't do much for drama, but on a personal level I usually let our rogues have a go first. That means even if I would feel justified rolling on a weapon with the rogues, if the upgrade to each of us is comparable, I pass. The main reason for this is that our rogues kick ass and I like to see them kick more ass.
We've actaully been fairly drama free until this incident. The older rogues and warriors get along fine, and usually chat about loot before hand. And the older rogues have their arena MHs already so dont care much. However the new rogues seem to be of the "rogue weapons are for rogue mindset." So its a new dynamic I'm dealing with in guild.
The desync will still happen though since WF won't stop proccing altogether Therefore you won't have a sync after the first procc from an non instant attack swing.
A rather bland question I must ask (though I don't dps in raids in general, being the MT - but knowing the other side of the business never hurts): is it right to assume that after this modification to WF the best rage dump for DW is spamming HS/Cleave, depending on threat and rage situation?
Therefore you won't have a sync after the first procc from an non instant attack swing. A rather bland question I must ask (though I don't dps in raids in general, being the MT - but knowing the other side of the business never hurts): is it right to assume that after this modification to WF the best rage dump for DW is spamming HS/Cleave, depending on threat and rage situation?
|
Originally Posted by Mem
The desync will still happen though since WF won't stop proccing altogether
Therefore you won't have a sync after the first procc from an non instant attack swing. |
| A rather bland question I must ask (though I don't dps in raids in general, being the MT - but knowing the other side of the business never hurts): is it right to assume that after this modification to WF the best rage dump for DW is spamming HS/Cleave, depending on threat and rage situation? |
rampage needs to have a threat addition to it like for each stack of it it's 2% less threat obviously going to 10% at 5 stacks of rampage. Even with salv I find myself having to stop dps or just auto attack for a while because i'm so close on threat.
I have to make our enhancement shaman run TA totem instead of WF fairly often due to threat issues. And our MT is very good with his TPS, it's just that on any fight where he needs to use avoidance/stam stacked gear instead of Block Value stuff for threat gen, I end up being pretty easily threat-capped, and I don't even have a DST, which I'm sure would increase my DPS and thus TPS by a non-insignificant amount. Reference last night's Gorefiend kill: WWS. I had to ask for TA totem for the first 10% of the fight, again for around 10-15% of the right around 60%, and again at 14%.
It seem like if you are so threat capped you actually have to just auto attack you would do more damage by using HS less and just waste rage. Seems like your goal should be to always keep BT and WW on cooldown, as these rage using attacks don't generate any bonus rage. Then, and only then, HS as your threat allows.
|
Originally Posted by Davia
I have to make our enhancement shaman run TA totem instead of WF fairly often due to threat issues. And our MT is very good with his TPS, it's just that on any fight where he needs to use avoidance/stam stacked gear instead of Block Value stuff for threat gen, I end up being pretty easily threat-capped, and I don't even have a DST, which I'm sure would increase my DPS and thus TPS by a non-insignificant amount. Reference last night's Gorefiend kill: WWS. I had to ask for TA totem for the first 10% of the fight, again for around 10-15% of the right around 60%, and again at 14%.
|
Also, have you tried using the Prism a few people have mentioned in this thread? On that WWS you provided you got 193 Critical Hits. Using the Prism, that should erase 28,950 damage worth of threat (converting into threat numbers is worthless, as the threat reduction on the Prism is also reduced by Salv/Tranquil Air/Battle Stance), which would be about 5% of your overall threat output ignoring the bonus threat from Heroic Strike (so, perhaps 4% is the better number). Not by any means an ideal solution, but far better than having to scale down damage.
Yeah, I'd love to get a Prism to try, but we rarely clear SSC and it has yet to drop.
Has anyone experimented with a pve fury sword spec build like this for example
Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft
been searching but so far only rogue forum hits
Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft
been searching but so far only rogue forum hits
|
Originally Posted by Barmbul
Has anyone experimented with a pve fury sword spec build like this for example
Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft been searching but so far only rogue forum hits |
Those points would be better served in parry or imp rend for all it matters.
Secondly, the loss of Rampage, improved execute and imp zerk stance cannot possibly be made up for by sword spec.
Its neat in theory, but no, just no.
When facing conditions of being threat capped to the point of being able to do little beyond BT/WW, I wonder if stacking +Hit may be an alternative method of gaining DPS. Since Heroic Strike and Hamstring both have some additional built in threat, stacking +Hit to increase white damage without the additional threat component could might prove beneficial.
Honestly one of your only choices is trying to get WF on the tank. This will help you dps higher moreso then any other solution.
|
Originally Posted by Davia
I have to make our enhancement shaman run TA totem instead of WF fairly often due to threat issues.
|
Toggling GoA/WF is old news, but this was a new combo for me. And a lot more beneficial.
|
Originally Posted by Davia
I had to ask for TA totem for the first 10% of the fight, again for around 10-15% of the right around 60%, and again at 14%.
|
Relentless Earthstorm Diamond - Items - World of Warcraft vs Thundering Skyfire Diamond - Items - World of Warcraft
I couldn't find any dps warrior specific info on these two.
The haste gem is about 24 static haste if it procs once a minute, against 12agi and 3% more damage on all your crits.
Wich to use?
I couldn't find any dps warrior specific info on these two.
The haste gem is about 24 static haste if it procs once a minute, against 12agi and 3% more damage on all your crits.
Wich to use?
Edited onPatch 2.1.3
Personally, I would think the comparisons should be between a Swift Skyfire Diamond and the Thundering Skyfire. Unless the Relentless is actually turning melee critical strikes into 209% damage instead of just 206% or even 203%.
This is also in the wrong thread, even if this thread seems to have lost it's own identity along the way.
This is also in the wrong thread, even if this thread seems to have lost it's own identity along the way.
Last edited by Graul : 08/15/07 at 7:00 AM.
I'm wondering if anybody could get a WWS posted up of some bosses pre-WF nerf and post-nerf. *Points at Celebrity warriors*. I know you guys run with a Fury Warrior and an Arms warrior so I'm kinda curious and would like to do some comparisons. I would do it myself but we wont be raiding next reset...
|
Originally Posted by NayNay
Relentless Earthstorm Diamond - Items - World of Warcraft vs Thundering Skyfire Diamond - Items - World of Warcraft
I couldn't find any dps warrior specific info on these two. The haste gem is about 24 static haste if it procs once a minute, against 12agi and 3% more damage on all your crits. Wich to use? |
Personaly, I went with the latter.
|
Originally Posted by Jamm
I'm wondering if anybody could get a WWS posted up of some bosses pre-WF nerf and post-nerf. *Points at Celebrity warriors*. I know you guys run with a Fury Warrior and an Arms warrior so I'm kinda curious and would like to do some comparisons. I would do it myself but we wont be raiding next reset...
|
good idea Jamm, I'd like to see some WWS from the people who used slam for DPSing and those who used spamstring, just to see what has changed.. cannings, serida, chocula, skru...
Wow Web Stats
Anetheron, chocula gets 1311 dps, slamming
1113 for skru with spamstring
Wow Web Stats
Serida gets 1301 with spamstring in gurtogg
pre-nerf
edit: eee... posted at the same time as Apate.. anyway Ill leave it here =/ but Ill check the other thread
Wow Web Stats
Anetheron, chocula gets 1311 dps, slamming
1113 for skru with spamstring
Wow Web Stats
Serida gets 1301 with spamstring in gurtogg
pre-nerf
edit: eee... posted at the same time as Apate.. anyway Ill leave it here =/ but Ill check the other thread
Does anyone know for a fact if Pummel has any hidden threat? If not I might start using it instead of hamstring whenever it's up as my "proc" instant. It doesn't have any listed threat in the Threat module, but that might just be an oversight.
Delete, wrong thread
Edited onPatch 2.1.3
Okay may aswell do this in depth, here is comparisons between akama - illidan the week before and the week after the nerf
I don't like showing Akama wws's as it only shows the final stage but for comparison at least
Akama Pre: Loading...
Akama Post: Wow Web Stats
Gorefiend Pre: Loading...
Gorefiend Post: Wow Web Stats
Threat Capped Pre and Post on bloodboil so no change there
Bloodboil Pre: Wow Web Stats
Bloodboil Post: Wow Web Stats
No Point in doing ROS as WWS is the Anti-ROS
Shahraz Pre: Wow Web Stats
Shahraz Post: Wow Web Stats
Council Pre: Wow Web Stats
Council Post: Our WWS recorder swapped out this reset so haven't got a parse of post nerf
Again not a great fight to really test it on as theres no totems in phase 2 at all
Illidan Pre: Wow Web Stats
Illidan Post: Waiting for WWS recorder (DUKES PULL FINGER OUT) to upload the parse
To sum it up I felt like I was never a threat on threat (oO) except obviously on bloodboil where its just a warriors job to bite it @ 10%, if I didn't crit on my white autohit I found myself getting rage starved, windfury attacks actually suprised me when they happened and weren't part of my damage anymore. Personally I hate it, before the nerf I felt arms dps was a very niche skill, it took a lot of timing co-ordination and ability to be able to pull off a high sustained dps over a fight and when you did pull it off you felt good.
Now I look at my damage and i'm pretty ashamed, dropping down from top 5ish most the time to around 10th, i'm thinking of giving this dual swiftsteel bludgeon spec a try if they ever drop for us again, as I don't think the dps I lose as arms now is any longer justified by the 4% blood frenzy debuff, or I could just reroll a lock!
I don't like showing Akama wws's as it only shows the final stage but for comparison at least
Akama Pre: Loading...
Akama Post: Wow Web Stats
Gorefiend Pre: Loading...
Gorefiend Post: Wow Web Stats
Threat Capped Pre and Post on bloodboil so no change there
Bloodboil Pre: Wow Web Stats
Bloodboil Post: Wow Web Stats
No Point in doing ROS as WWS is the Anti-ROS
Shahraz Pre: Wow Web Stats
Shahraz Post: Wow Web Stats
Council Pre: Wow Web Stats
Council Post: Our WWS recorder swapped out this reset so haven't got a parse of post nerf
Again not a great fight to really test it on as theres no totems in phase 2 at all
Illidan Pre: Wow Web Stats
Illidan Post: Waiting for WWS recorder (DUKES PULL FINGER OUT) to upload the parse
To sum it up I felt like I was never a threat on threat (oO) except obviously on bloodboil where its just a warriors job to bite it @ 10%, if I didn't crit on my white autohit I found myself getting rage starved, windfury attacks actually suprised me when they happened and weren't part of my damage anymore. Personally I hate it, before the nerf I felt arms dps was a very niche skill, it took a lot of timing co-ordination and ability to be able to pull off a high sustained dps over a fight and when you did pull it off you felt good.
Now I look at my damage and i'm pretty ashamed, dropping down from top 5ish most the time to around 10th, i'm thinking of giving this dual swiftsteel bludgeon spec a try if they ever drop for us again, as I don't think the dps I lose as arms now is any longer justified by the 4% blood frenzy debuff, or I could just reroll a lock!
Last edited by Cannings : 08/15/07 at 10:43 AM.
Hey guys,
This is a bit offtopic from where the thread currently has led itself(hate teh WF nerf...), however I have some questions for a lot of you fury warriors. How do you guys deal with "rogue" weapons? (I.E. Slow MH daggers, swords, and fist weapons, and very fast OH weapons.)
Recently its come up in our guild and created some rogue drama. As GM I see both sides of the story and was wondering how other guilds deal with it.
Rogues:
Rogues are committed to one spec that favors one spefic type of weapon.
Rogues face a much higher dps increase from a slow MH, fast OH.
Rogue instants are based on MH dmg
With the WF nerf a slow MH isnt as important for a fury warrior anymore.
Warriors:
Still participate just as much in raids
Are still expected to bring huge dps numbers
Provide rogues with battle shout(yeah, its their job, but figure I'd list it)
So I was wondering how other fury warriors deal with "rogue weapons". Do you guys mainly look for maces and axes? Do you pass swords to sword rogues and daggers to dagger rogues always? Does the rogues attendance and history with the guild come in to play at all in your decisions? And are these personal views or guild loot enforced rules?
Thanks for your answers.
This is a bit offtopic from where the thread currently has led itself(hate teh WF nerf...), however I have some questions for a lot of you fury warriors. How do you guys deal with "rogue" weapons? (I.E. Slow MH daggers, swords, and fist weapons, and very fast OH weapons.)
Recently its come up in our guild and created some rogue drama. As GM I see both sides of the story and was wondering how other guilds deal with it.
Rogues:
Rogues are committed to one spec that favors one spefic type of weapon.
Rogues face a much higher dps increase from a slow MH, fast OH.
Rogue instants are based on MH dmg
With the WF nerf a slow MH isnt as important for a fury warrior anymore.
Warriors:
Still participate just as much in raids
Are still expected to bring huge dps numbers
Provide rogues with battle shout(yeah, its their job, but figure I'd list it)
So I was wondering how other fury warriors deal with "rogue weapons". Do you guys mainly look for maces and axes? Do you pass swords to sword rogues and daggers to dagger rogues always? Does the rogues attendance and history with the guild come in to play at all in your decisions? And are these personal views or guild loot enforced rules?
Thanks for your answers.
This is probably not helpful because we don't do much for drama, but on a personal level I usually let our rogues have a go first. That means even if I would feel justified rolling on a weapon with the rogues, if the upgrade to each of us is comparable, I pass. The main reason for this is that our rogues kick ass and I like to see them kick more ass.
We've actaully been fairly drama free until this incident. The older rogues and warriors get along fine, and usually chat about loot before hand. And the older rogues have their arena MHs already so dont care much. However the new rogues seem to be of the "rogue weapons are for rogue mindset." So its a new dynamic I'm dealing with in guild.
Rogue's are only in the raid for one thing only, Melee dps. Generally i would never take a dagger or sword over a rogue ever. Their is also quite a few decent axes and maces available for warriors.
Problem is: most endgame weapons are either pretty fast or damn slow. Unless you want to relegate the warriors to axes only they have to get a shot at least on non dagger stuff (daggers a imho a very special case since rogues are the only class relying on a specific type of weapon for special attacks).
(I've played a rogue for about 2 years before rerolling so I know both sides of the story).
If I were you I would consider talking to your new rogues so that they do the same as your older rogues. Talking about loot beforehands often spares you a lot of drama. If they don't cooperate...well then weapons are fair game for both I guess.
(I've played a rogue for about 2 years before rerolling so I know both sides of the story).
If I were you I would consider talking to your new rogues so that they do the same as your older rogues. Talking about loot beforehands often spares you a lot of drama. If they don't cooperate...well then weapons are fair game for both I guess.
Don't see it as a "Give it to a Rogue or to a Warrior" but see it as a "Does it benefit Player 1 (who may be a Rogue) or Player 2 (who may be a Warrior) more". However Warriors have one big extra in weapon choice: Dragonstrike is easily attainable and the best weapon up to Illidan, Swiftsteel Bludgeon as a Mace isn't useful to Rogues at all but it's the best Offhand for Fury Warriors. So in Endgame Raiding I'm passing on everything but Swiftsteel Bludgeon and the Warglaives, which are, no doubt, the best weapons ingame for Rogues and Fury Warriors.
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Originally Posted by Hidden
Don't see it as a "Give it to a Rogue or to a Warrior" but see it as a "Does it benefit Player 1 (who may be a Rogue) or Player 2 (who may be a Warrior) more". However Warriors have one big extra in weapon choice: Dragonstrike is easily attainable and the best weapon up to Illidan, Swiftsteel Bludgeon as a Mace isn't useful to Rogues at all but it's the best Offhand for Fury Warriors. So in Endgame Raiding I'm passing on everything but Swiftsteel Bludgeon and the Warglaives, which are, no doubt, the best weapons ingame for Rogues and Fury Warriors.
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Most endgame pve rogues are combat sword specced so their best option is the sword obviously, leaving the mace and axe to warriors. Should be a no-brainer really, unless neither your rogues or warriors have any common sense whatsoever.
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Originally Posted by madrussian
Most endgame pve rogues are combat sword specced so their best option is the sword obviously, leaving the mace and axe to warriors. Should be a no-brainer really, unless neither your rogues or warriors have any common sense whatsoever.
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Slow MH is still better for us.
Edited onPatch 2.1.3
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Originally Posted by dr_AllCOM3
Slow MH is still better for us.
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edited for posting late at night.
Last edited by Graul : 08/16/07 at 6:12 AM.
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Originally Posted by Graul
Now if you had some obscene haste gear and could get that 3.0 speed weapon down to 1.5 or even 2.0 it would look different. Obviously you are getting larger returns from haste on the slower weapon than you are the faster, but before that point?
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Without doing the research (I'm a 2h warrior) I'd chose Rising Tide and Swiftsteel as an offhand. Would you go for duel Swiftsteels?
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Originally Posted by Graul
A quicker main hand weapon will get less of a return (per hit) on natural AP from weapon speed, but it will get the same bonus from the AP from the Windfury attack. Take two identical DPS weapons (say a 100 DPS 3.0 weapon and a 100 DPS 1.5 speed weapon). The 1.5 speed weapon simply dominates in both Heroic efficiency as well as Windfury attacks.
Now if you had some obscene haste gear and could get that 3.0 speed weapon down to 1.5 or even 2.0 it would look different. Obviously you are getting larger returns from haste on the slower weapon than you are the faster, but before that point? |
Dual Bludgeons would be an interesting choice for sure. Take the Rising Tide for example. To get it to the 1.5 speed (discounting the 2% haste making it 1.47), you would need approximately 73% haste. 25% of that can come from Flurry (although it will not be up 100% of the time), so you would have to make up (over) 48% haste somewhere, most likely a combination of a static haste rating, Dragonspine proc and Mongoose.
The Tide with 73% haste will get 17 additional auto attacks per minute, whereas the Bludgeon would gain 28 (if it's possible to actually swing below 1.0 speeds, otherwise it gains 20).
Using 4000 generic AP:
@1.5 speed the Rising Tide outputs an additional 17,051 damage per minute
@0.87 speed the Bludgeon outputs an additonal 16,240 damage per minute
@1.0 speed the Bludgeon outputs an additional 11,600 damage per minute
Clearly the Rising Tide puts the haste to much greater use. How easy is it to get 73% continual haste though? Also, the gap between the .87 speed Bludgeon compared to the 1.5 speed Tide would most certainly be eclipsed through Windfury procs as well as a lot more Heroic Strikes. It's not so apparent with the 1.0 speed Bludgeon.
Let's look at this again using a more accessible (for non BT clearing guilds) 40% "constant" haste. Yes I realize you have to actually be in BT to get either weapon, but that's not the point.
@1.86 speed the Rising Tide outputs an additional 9,030 damage per minute.
@1.07 speed the Bludgeon outputs an additional 9,265 damage per minute.
This is just the increased damage from auto attacks. If someone wants to take the time to find out the additional damage per minute each weapon at each speeds gains from Windfury as well as Heroic Strikes (assuming no rage starvation or threat limit) they can.
The Tide with 73% haste will get 17 additional auto attacks per minute, whereas the Bludgeon would gain 28 (if it's possible to actually swing below 1.0 speeds, otherwise it gains 20).
Using 4000 generic AP:
@1.5 speed the Rising Tide outputs an additional 17,051 damage per minute
@0.87 speed the Bludgeon outputs an additonal 16,240 damage per minute
@1.0 speed the Bludgeon outputs an additional 11,600 damage per minute
Clearly the Rising Tide puts the haste to much greater use. How easy is it to get 73% continual haste though? Also, the gap between the .87 speed Bludgeon compared to the 1.5 speed Tide would most certainly be eclipsed through Windfury procs as well as a lot more Heroic Strikes. It's not so apparent with the 1.0 speed Bludgeon.
Let's look at this again using a more accessible (for non BT clearing guilds) 40% "constant" haste. Yes I realize you have to actually be in BT to get either weapon, but that's not the point.
@1.86 speed the Rising Tide outputs an additional 9,030 damage per minute.
@1.07 speed the Bludgeon outputs an additional 9,265 damage per minute.
This is just the increased damage from auto attacks. If someone wants to take the time to find out the additional damage per minute each weapon at each speeds gains from Windfury as well as Heroic Strikes (assuming no rage starvation or threat limit) they can.
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Originally Posted by Graul
Why exactly, because of WW and Cleave? Faster is much better for Heroic Strike, and while yes, "threat" is our primary limitation, spamming Hamstring was producing a ton of threat for really good gains when you used a slow MH, but this isn't true anymore. Haste will have a larger effect on a slower weapon, but does that necessarily mean there will be a significant difference in overall DPS compared to a faster weapon?
A quicker main hand weapon will get less of a return (per hit) on natural AP from weapon speed, but it will get the same bonus from the AP from the Windfury attack. Take two identical DPS weapons (say a 100 DPS 3.0 weapon and a 100 DPS 1.5 speed weapon). The 1.5 speed weapon simply dominates in both Heroic efficiency as well as Windfury attacks. Now if you had some obscene haste gear and could get that 3.0 speed weapon down to 1.5 or even 2.0 it would look different. Obviously you are getting larger returns from haste on the slower weapon than you are the faster, but before that point? |
The argument that faster weapons benefit more from the extra attack power of windfury is invalid, as extra attacks through Windfury are not normalized as far as I know.
So what makes a difference in weapon speed choice is whirlwind favoring slow, vs. cheaper and more heroic strikes favoring a fast mainhand. Or did I miss something?
| But it will also cause less proccs from PPM based sources such as DST and mongoose. |
This seems like the best thread to ask this: does anyone have any parses of them using the BT trinket? On a whim I used it for all of Archimonde and some SSC bosses tonight, and the proc seems more like 50% than 25%, but my sample size is still really small
examples:
Chocula - WWS
Chocula - WWS
Chocula - WWS
each heal from "fire blood" is a proc of the trinket
if this is common knowledge or something then w/e. It does make the trinket a bit more appealing, though
examples:
Chocula - WWS
Chocula - WWS
Chocula - WWS
each heal from "fire blood" is a proc of the trinket
if this is common knowledge or something then w/e. It does make the trinket a bit more appealing, though
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Originally Posted by Graul
Dual ...
@1.86 speed the Rising Tide outputs an additional 9,030 damage per minute. @1.07 speed the Bludgeon outputs an additional 9,265 damage per minute. This is just the increased damage from auto attacks. If someone wants to take the time to find out the additional damage per minute each weapon at each speeds gains from Windfury as well as Heroic Strikes (assuming no rage starvation or threat limit) they can. |
As said in the post before, haste and weapon speed have no synergy with windfury at all any more. It's true that for procs with a static proc chance, haste yields a bigger return in procs for faster weapons, but this effect should be marginal at best.
| The argument that faster weapons benefit more from the extra attack power of windfury is invalid, as extra attacks through Windfury are not normalized as far as I know. |
So in the end it seems to come down to bigger WW/Cleave/PPM vs steadier incoming rage and more efficient Heroic Strikes. I'm not sure how much of a real difference this would be, but it seems like you might have the potential for less glances with fast/fast. If rage was not an issue for some reason and you could Heroic each swing with a slower weapon, it would end up being the same, yet less threat. And then there is always the Prism of Inner Calm to consider...if you'd actually really consider using it.
Well, after reading some here. When they are changing WF, you would say that it is better to use 2 fast wpns instead of the usual combo with slower MH.
Now I have Rising Tide and the trash mace from BT, you guys think I would get more dps if I get one more 1,5 speed mace after patch?
I am a bit confused
Now I have Rising Tide and the trash mace from BT, you guys think I would get more dps if I get one more 1,5 speed mace after patch?
I am a bit confused
Trinkets
Was wondering if I could get help with what trinkets to use in PvE
Atm I am using Bloodlust Brooch - Items - World of Warcraft / Romulo's Poison Vial - Items - World of Warcraft
2016ap / 262 hit / 29.19crt
Abacus of Violent Odds - Items - World of Warcraft of Violent Odds)
Hourglass of the Unraveller - Items - World of Warcraft (Hourglass of the Unraveller)
I was thinking about using the bloodlust and hourglass or bloodlust and abacus...any suggestions?
Atm I am using Bloodlust Brooch - Items - World of Warcraft / Romulo's Poison Vial - Items - World of Warcraft
2016ap / 262 hit / 29.19crt
Abacus of Violent Odds - Items - World of Warcraft of Violent Odds)
Hourglass of the Unraveller - Items - World of Warcraft (Hourglass of the Unraveller)
I was thinking about using the bloodlust and hourglass or bloodlust and abacus...any suggestions?
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Originally Posted by Graul
So in the end it seems to come down to bigger WW/Cleave/PPM vs steadier incoming rage and more efficient Heroic Strikes.
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Originally Posted by Fogbug
This seems like the best thread to ask this: does anyone have any parses of them using the BT trinket? On a whim I used it for all of Archimonde and some SSC bosses tonight, and the proc seems more like 50% than 25%, but my sample size is still really small
examples: Chocula - WWS Chocula - WWS Chocula - WWS each heal from "fire blood" is a proc of the trinket if this is common knowledge or something then w/e. It does make the trinket a bit more appealing, though |
Yarrick - WWS
Yarrick - WWS
Yarrick - WWS
Heya, I've been visiting these forums for awhile, great info and people here, haven't posted before, just kinda a reader, but I have a lil question thats a lil off topic of where this thread is now, but didnt wanna start a new thread for it.
Can anyone confirm or deny if piercing howl does keep a daze effect on raid bosses for 6 seconds that increase HS damage? Thanks
Can anyone confirm or deny if piercing howl does keep a daze effect on raid bosses for 6 seconds that increase HS damage? Thanks
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Originally Posted by Hazzan
Heya, I've been visiting these forums for awhile, great info and people here, haven't posted before, just kinda a reader, but I have a lil question thats a lil off topic of where this thread is now, but didnt wanna start a new thread for it.
Can anyone confirm or deny if piercing howl does keep a daze effect on raid bosses for 6 seconds that increase HS damage? Thanks |
Edited onPatch 2.1.3
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Originally Posted by Graul
So in the end it seems to come down to bigger WW/Cleave/PPM vs steadier incoming rage and more efficient Heroic Strikes. I'm not sure how much of a real difference this would be, but it seems like you might have the potential for less glances with fast/fast. If rage was not an issue for some reason and you could Heroic each swing with a slower weapon, it would end up being the same, yet less threat. And then there is always the Prism of Inner Calm to consider...if you'd actually really consider using it.
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I'd add some practical experience if I could, but before I try Fury again I need another weapon. Will try picking up a second [Swiftsteel Bludgeon] as well as something that's slow.
Last edited by Amorpheus : 08/16/07 at 9:17 AM. Reason: Wrong Reasoning
Edited onPatch 2.1.3
In the past week I've spent some time with my weapons I posted before (2.6, 1.5, 1.5). I've observed that my DPS is still higher with fast/slow after the Windfury nerf. I've put some more thought into the theory behind it that I explain below.
Heroic Strike impact
With the slow MH you get more our of your heroic strike. Here's why:
1) The bonus from impale (+10% total dmg on crit) gets more bonus per rage/threat with a slow weapon.
2) Heroic strike increases the chance to hit. This gets bonus per rage/threat with a slower weapon.
3) Heroic strike cannot glance. This gets more bonus per rage/threat with a slower weapon.
3) Heroic strike increases damage by X. (Edit) "The damage-per-threat and damage-per-rage" is independent of weapon speed.
Reasons 1-3 make heroic strike with a slower weapon more rage and threat efficient. If you are in a situation with no threat limitations and plenty of excess rage, a slower weapon will allow you to use bonus (4) much more quickly.
Whirlwind
Whirlwind is still 4% of my damage with a slow MH. Using a fast MH can almost cut that damage in half.
Flurry-benefit per instant attack
Slow/Fast (2.6/1.5) has an average attack speed of 1.025 sec/hit. Fast/fast has an average attack speed of 0.75 secs/hit. An instant attack that crits (BS, whirlwind, hamstring, execute) will generate Flurry. The flurry will last longer with slow/fast.
During execute phase, it's important to generate rage as fast as possible between the global cooldowns of execute, so fast/fast is clearly the superior option. Heroic strike and whirlwind are not used. Bloodthirst is still more dmg/rage efficient than execute and is weapon speed independent.
Using slow/fast (2.6/1.5) from 100->20% and fast/fast (1.5/1.5) from 19%->0 has given me the best results.
Heroic Strike impact
With the slow MH you get more our of your heroic strike. Here's why:
1) The bonus from impale (+10% total dmg on crit) gets more bonus per rage/threat with a slow weapon.
2) Heroic strike increases the chance to hit. This gets bonus per rage/threat with a slower weapon.
3) Heroic strike cannot glance. This gets more bonus per rage/threat with a slower weapon.
3) Heroic strike increases damage by X. (Edit) "The damage-per-threat and damage-per-rage" is independent of weapon speed.
Reasons 1-3 make heroic strike with a slower weapon more rage and threat efficient. If you are in a situation with no threat limitations and plenty of excess rage, a slower weapon will allow you to use bonus (4) much more quickly.
Whirlwind
Whirlwind is still 4% of my damage with a slow MH. Using a fast MH can almost cut that damage in half.
Flurry-benefit per instant attack
Slow/Fast (2.6/1.5) has an average attack speed of 1.025 sec/hit. Fast/fast has an average attack speed of 0.75 secs/hit. An instant attack that crits (BS, whirlwind, hamstring, execute) will generate Flurry. The flurry will last longer with slow/fast.
During execute phase, it's important to generate rage as fast as possible between the global cooldowns of execute, so fast/fast is clearly the superior option. Heroic strike and whirlwind are not used. Bloodthirst is still more dmg/rage efficient than execute and is weapon speed independent.
Using slow/fast (2.6/1.5) from 100->20% and fast/fast (1.5/1.5) from 19%->0 has given me the best results.
Last edited by Natural : 08/17/07 at 10:36 AM.
Natural's results fit with my expectations of the what would be expected. I've thought about grabbing a second Bludgeon to MH during execute range, but I hate to take off Dragonstrike because a proc during execute range is a massive dps boost, however if it doesnt proc during execute obviously the Bludgeon is better.
Everyone is saying "Dragonstrike is amazing!"...seems like a recent development. How much better does the haste proc make it then say, the S2 merciless One-handed axe? Or the T3 axe smith one-hander?
I think i even saw someone say it's the best 1 hander until illidan's legendaries?
I think i even saw someone say it's the best 1 hander until illidan's legendaries?
Actually, Fast/Fast isn't even better than Slow/Fast in Execute range when you have either enough Haste Rating to get your mainhand under 1,5 speed or get enough rage through Offhand hits to spam Execute non-stop.
Rogue's are only in the raid for one thing only, Melee dps. Generally i would never take a dagger or sword over a rogue ever. Their is also quite a few decent axes and maces available for warriors.
Problem is: most endgame weapons are either pretty fast or damn slow. Unless you want to relegate the warriors to axes only they have to get a shot at least on non dagger stuff (daggers a imho a very special case since rogues are the only class relying on a specific type of weapon for special attacks).
(I've played a rogue for about 2 years before rerolling so I know both sides of the story).
If I were you I would consider talking to your new rogues so that they do the same as your older rogues. Talking about loot beforehands often spares you a lot of drama. If they don't cooperate...well then weapons are fair game for both I guess.
(I've played a rogue for about 2 years before rerolling so I know both sides of the story).
If I were you I would consider talking to your new rogues so that they do the same as your older rogues. Talking about loot beforehands often spares you a lot of drama. If they don't cooperate...well then weapons are fair game for both I guess.
Don't see it as a "Give it to a Rogue or to a Warrior" but see it as a "Does it benefit Player 1 (who may be a Rogue) or Player 2 (who may be a Warrior) more". However Warriors have one big extra in weapon choice: Dragonstrike is easily attainable and the best weapon up to Illidan, Swiftsteel Bludgeon as a Mace isn't useful to Rogues at all but it's the best Offhand for Fury Warriors. So in Endgame Raiding I'm passing on everything but Swiftsteel Bludgeon and the Warglaives, which are, no doubt, the best weapons ingame for Rogues and Fury Warriors.
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Originally Posted by Hidden
Don't see it as a "Give it to a Rogue or to a Warrior" but see it as a "Does it benefit Player 1 (who may be a Rogue) or Player 2 (who may be a Warrior) more". However Warriors have one big extra in weapon choice: Dragonstrike is easily attainable and the best weapon up to Illidan, Swiftsteel Bludgeon as a Mace isn't useful to Rogues at all but it's the best Offhand for Fury Warriors. So in Endgame Raiding I'm passing on everything but Swiftsteel Bludgeon and the Warglaives, which are, no doubt, the best weapons ingame for Rogues and Fury Warriors.
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Most endgame pve rogues are combat sword specced so their best option is the sword obviously, leaving the mace and axe to warriors. Should be a no-brainer really, unless neither your rogues or warriors have any common sense whatsoever.
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Originally Posted by madrussian
Most endgame pve rogues are combat sword specced so their best option is the sword obviously, leaving the mace and axe to warriors. Should be a no-brainer really, unless neither your rogues or warriors have any common sense whatsoever.
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Slow MH is still better for us.
Edited onPatch 2.1.3
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Originally Posted by dr_AllCOM3
Slow MH is still better for us.
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edited for posting late at night.
Last edited by Graul : 08/16/07 at 6:12 AM.
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Originally Posted by Graul
Now if you had some obscene haste gear and could get that 3.0 speed weapon down to 1.5 or even 2.0 it would look different. Obviously you are getting larger returns from haste on the slower weapon than you are the faster, but before that point?
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Without doing the research (I'm a 2h warrior) I'd chose Rising Tide and Swiftsteel as an offhand. Would you go for duel Swiftsteels?
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Originally Posted by Graul
A quicker main hand weapon will get less of a return (per hit) on natural AP from weapon speed, but it will get the same bonus from the AP from the Windfury attack. Take two identical DPS weapons (say a 100 DPS 3.0 weapon and a 100 DPS 1.5 speed weapon). The 1.5 speed weapon simply dominates in both Heroic efficiency as well as Windfury attacks.
Now if you had some obscene haste gear and could get that 3.0 speed weapon down to 1.5 or even 2.0 it would look different. Obviously you are getting larger returns from haste on the slower weapon than you are the faster, but before that point? |
Dual Bludgeons would be an interesting choice for sure. Take the Rising Tide for example. To get it to the 1.5 speed (discounting the 2% haste making it 1.47), you would need approximately 73% haste. 25% of that can come from Flurry (although it will not be up 100% of the time), so you would have to make up (over) 48% haste somewhere, most likely a combination of a static haste rating, Dragonspine proc and Mongoose.
The Tide with 73% haste will get 17 additional auto attacks per minute, whereas the Bludgeon would gain 28 (if it's possible to actually swing below 1.0 speeds, otherwise it gains 20).
Using 4000 generic AP:
@1.5 speed the Rising Tide outputs an additional 17,051 damage per minute
@0.87 speed the Bludgeon outputs an additonal 16,240 damage per minute
@1.0 speed the Bludgeon outputs an additional 11,600 damage per minute
Clearly the Rising Tide puts the haste to much greater use. How easy is it to get 73% continual haste though? Also, the gap between the .87 speed Bludgeon compared to the 1.5 speed Tide would most certainly be eclipsed through Windfury procs as well as a lot more Heroic Strikes. It's not so apparent with the 1.0 speed Bludgeon.
Let's look at this again using a more accessible (for non BT clearing guilds) 40% "constant" haste. Yes I realize you have to actually be in BT to get either weapon, but that's not the point.
@1.86 speed the Rising Tide outputs an additional 9,030 damage per minute.
@1.07 speed the Bludgeon outputs an additional 9,265 damage per minute.
This is just the increased damage from auto attacks. If someone wants to take the time to find out the additional damage per minute each weapon at each speeds gains from Windfury as well as Heroic Strikes (assuming no rage starvation or threat limit) they can.
The Tide with 73% haste will get 17 additional auto attacks per minute, whereas the Bludgeon would gain 28 (if it's possible to actually swing below 1.0 speeds, otherwise it gains 20).
Using 4000 generic AP:
@1.5 speed the Rising Tide outputs an additional 17,051 damage per minute
@0.87 speed the Bludgeon outputs an additonal 16,240 damage per minute
@1.0 speed the Bludgeon outputs an additional 11,600 damage per minute
Clearly the Rising Tide puts the haste to much greater use. How easy is it to get 73% continual haste though? Also, the gap between the .87 speed Bludgeon compared to the 1.5 speed Tide would most certainly be eclipsed through Windfury procs as well as a lot more Heroic Strikes. It's not so apparent with the 1.0 speed Bludgeon.
Let's look at this again using a more accessible (for non BT clearing guilds) 40% "constant" haste. Yes I realize you have to actually be in BT to get either weapon, but that's not the point.
@1.86 speed the Rising Tide outputs an additional 9,030 damage per minute.
@1.07 speed the Bludgeon outputs an additional 9,265 damage per minute.
This is just the increased damage from auto attacks. If someone wants to take the time to find out the additional damage per minute each weapon at each speeds gains from Windfury as well as Heroic Strikes (assuming no rage starvation or threat limit) they can.
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Originally Posted by Graul
Why exactly, because of WW and Cleave? Faster is much better for Heroic Strike, and while yes, "threat" is our primary limitation, spamming Hamstring was producing a ton of threat for really good gains when you used a slow MH, but this isn't true anymore. Haste will have a larger effect on a slower weapon, but does that necessarily mean there will be a significant difference in overall DPS compared to a faster weapon?
A quicker main hand weapon will get less of a return (per hit) on natural AP from weapon speed, but it will get the same bonus from the AP from the Windfury attack. Take two identical DPS weapons (say a 100 DPS 3.0 weapon and a 100 DPS 1.5 speed weapon). The 1.5 speed weapon simply dominates in both Heroic efficiency as well as Windfury attacks. Now if you had some obscene haste gear and could get that 3.0 speed weapon down to 1.5 or even 2.0 it would look different. Obviously you are getting larger returns from haste on the slower weapon than you are the faster, but before that point? |
The argument that faster weapons benefit more from the extra attack power of windfury is invalid, as extra attacks through Windfury are not normalized as far as I know.
So what makes a difference in weapon speed choice is whirlwind favoring slow, vs. cheaper and more heroic strikes favoring a fast mainhand. Or did I miss something?
| But it will also cause less proccs from PPM based sources such as DST and mongoose. |
This seems like the best thread to ask this: does anyone have any parses of them using the BT trinket? On a whim I used it for all of Archimonde and some SSC bosses tonight, and the proc seems more like 50% than 25%, but my sample size is still really small
examples:
Chocula - WWS
Chocula - WWS
Chocula - WWS
each heal from "fire blood" is a proc of the trinket
if this is common knowledge or something then w/e. It does make the trinket a bit more appealing, though
examples:
Chocula - WWS
Chocula - WWS
Chocula - WWS
each heal from "fire blood" is a proc of the trinket
if this is common knowledge or something then w/e. It does make the trinket a bit more appealing, though
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Originally Posted by Graul
Dual ...
@1.86 speed the Rising Tide outputs an additional 9,030 damage per minute. @1.07 speed the Bludgeon outputs an additional 9,265 damage per minute. This is just the increased damage from auto attacks. If someone wants to take the time to find out the additional damage per minute each weapon at each speeds gains from Windfury as well as Heroic Strikes (assuming no rage starvation or threat limit) they can. |
As said in the post before, haste and weapon speed have no synergy with windfury at all any more. It's true that for procs with a static proc chance, haste yields a bigger return in procs for faster weapons, but this effect should be marginal at best.
| The argument that faster weapons benefit more from the extra attack power of windfury is invalid, as extra attacks through Windfury are not normalized as far as I know. |
So in the end it seems to come down to bigger WW/Cleave/PPM vs steadier incoming rage and more efficient Heroic Strikes. I'm not sure how much of a real difference this would be, but it seems like you might have the potential for less glances with fast/fast. If rage was not an issue for some reason and you could Heroic each swing with a slower weapon, it would end up being the same, yet less threat. And then there is always the Prism of Inner Calm to consider...if you'd actually really consider using it.
Well, after reading some here. When they are changing WF, you would say that it is better to use 2 fast wpns instead of the usual combo with slower MH.
Now I have Rising Tide and the trash mace from BT, you guys think I would get more dps if I get one more 1,5 speed mace after patch?
I am a bit confused
Now I have Rising Tide and the trash mace from BT, you guys think I would get more dps if I get one more 1,5 speed mace after patch?
I am a bit confused
Trinkets
Was wondering if I could get help with what trinkets to use in PvE
Atm I am using Bloodlust Brooch - Items - World of Warcraft / Romulo's Poison Vial - Items - World of Warcraft
2016ap / 262 hit / 29.19crt
Abacus of Violent Odds - Items - World of Warcraft of Violent Odds)
Hourglass of the Unraveller - Items - World of Warcraft (Hourglass of the Unraveller)
I was thinking about using the bloodlust and hourglass or bloodlust and abacus...any suggestions?
Atm I am using Bloodlust Brooch - Items - World of Warcraft / Romulo's Poison Vial - Items - World of Warcraft
2016ap / 262 hit / 29.19crt
Abacus of Violent Odds - Items - World of Warcraft of Violent Odds)
Hourglass of the Unraveller - Items - World of Warcraft (Hourglass of the Unraveller)
I was thinking about using the bloodlust and hourglass or bloodlust and abacus...any suggestions?
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Originally Posted by Graul
So in the end it seems to come down to bigger WW/Cleave/PPM vs steadier incoming rage and more efficient Heroic Strikes.
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Originally Posted by Fogbug
This seems like the best thread to ask this: does anyone have any parses of them using the BT trinket? On a whim I used it for all of Archimonde and some SSC bosses tonight, and the proc seems more like 50% than 25%, but my sample size is still really small
examples: Chocula - WWS Chocula - WWS Chocula - WWS each heal from "fire blood" is a proc of the trinket if this is common knowledge or something then w/e. It does make the trinket a bit more appealing, though |
Yarrick - WWS
Yarrick - WWS
Yarrick - WWS
Heya, I've been visiting these forums for awhile, great info and people here, haven't posted before, just kinda a reader, but I have a lil question thats a lil off topic of where this thread is now, but didnt wanna start a new thread for it.
Can anyone confirm or deny if piercing howl does keep a daze effect on raid bosses for 6 seconds that increase HS damage? Thanks
Can anyone confirm or deny if piercing howl does keep a daze effect on raid bosses for 6 seconds that increase HS damage? Thanks
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Originally Posted by Hazzan
Heya, I've been visiting these forums for awhile, great info and people here, haven't posted before, just kinda a reader, but I have a lil question thats a lil off topic of where this thread is now, but didnt wanna start a new thread for it.
Can anyone confirm or deny if piercing howl does keep a daze effect on raid bosses for 6 seconds that increase HS damage? Thanks |
Edited onPatch 2.1.3
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Originally Posted by Graul
So in the end it seems to come down to bigger WW/Cleave/PPM vs steadier incoming rage and more efficient Heroic Strikes. I'm not sure how much of a real difference this would be, but it seems like you might have the potential for less glances with fast/fast. If rage was not an issue for some reason and you could Heroic each swing with a slower weapon, it would end up being the same, yet less threat. And then there is always the Prism of Inner Calm to consider...if you'd actually really consider using it.
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I'd add some practical experience if I could, but before I try Fury again I need another weapon. Will try picking up a second [Swiftsteel Bludgeon] as well as something that's slow.
Last edited by Amorpheus : 08/16/07 at 9:17 AM. Reason: Wrong Reasoning
Edited onPatch 2.1.3
In the past week I've spent some time with my weapons I posted before (2.6, 1.5, 1.5). I've observed that my DPS is still higher with fast/slow after the Windfury nerf. I've put some more thought into the theory behind it that I explain below.
Heroic Strike impact
With the slow MH you get more our of your heroic strike. Here's why:
1) The bonus from impale (+10% total dmg on crit) gets more bonus per rage/threat with a slow weapon.
2) Heroic strike increases the chance to hit. This gets bonus per rage/threat with a slower weapon.
3) Heroic strike cannot glance. This gets more bonus per rage/threat with a slower weapon.
3) Heroic strike increases damage by X. (Edit) "The damage-per-threat and damage-per-rage" is independent of weapon speed.
Reasons 1-3 make heroic strike with a slower weapon more rage and threat efficient. If you are in a situation with no threat limitations and plenty of excess rage, a slower weapon will allow you to use bonus (4) much more quickly.
Whirlwind
Whirlwind is still 4% of my damage with a slow MH. Using a fast MH can almost cut that damage in half.
Flurry-benefit per instant attack
Slow/Fast (2.6/1.5) has an average attack speed of 1.025 sec/hit. Fast/fast has an average attack speed of 0.75 secs/hit. An instant attack that crits (BS, whirlwind, hamstring, execute) will generate Flurry. The flurry will last longer with slow/fast.
During execute phase, it's important to generate rage as fast as possible between the global cooldowns of execute, so fast/fast is clearly the superior option. Heroic strike and whirlwind are not used. Bloodthirst is still more dmg/rage efficient than execute and is weapon speed independent.
Using slow/fast (2.6/1.5) from 100->20% and fast/fast (1.5/1.5) from 19%->0 has given me the best results.
Heroic Strike impact
With the slow MH you get more our of your heroic strike. Here's why:
1) The bonus from impale (+10% total dmg on crit) gets more bonus per rage/threat with a slow weapon.
2) Heroic strike increases the chance to hit. This gets bonus per rage/threat with a slower weapon.
3) Heroic strike cannot glance. This gets more bonus per rage/threat with a slower weapon.
3) Heroic strike increases damage by X. (Edit) "The damage-per-threat and damage-per-rage" is independent of weapon speed.
Reasons 1-3 make heroic strike with a slower weapon more rage and threat efficient. If you are in a situation with no threat limitations and plenty of excess rage, a slower weapon will allow you to use bonus (4) much more quickly.
Whirlwind
Whirlwind is still 4% of my damage with a slow MH. Using a fast MH can almost cut that damage in half.
Flurry-benefit per instant attack
Slow/Fast (2.6/1.5) has an average attack speed of 1.025 sec/hit. Fast/fast has an average attack speed of 0.75 secs/hit. An instant attack that crits (BS, whirlwind, hamstring, execute) will generate Flurry. The flurry will last longer with slow/fast.
During execute phase, it's important to generate rage as fast as possible between the global cooldowns of execute, so fast/fast is clearly the superior option. Heroic strike and whirlwind are not used. Bloodthirst is still more dmg/rage efficient than execute and is weapon speed independent.
Using slow/fast (2.6/1.5) from 100->20% and fast/fast (1.5/1.5) from 19%->0 has given me the best results.
Last edited by Natural : 08/17/07 at 10:36 AM.
Natural's results fit with my expectations of the what would be expected. I've thought about grabbing a second Bludgeon to MH during execute range, but I hate to take off Dragonstrike because a proc during execute range is a massive dps boost, however if it doesnt proc during execute obviously the Bludgeon is better.
Everyone is saying "Dragonstrike is amazing!"...seems like a recent development. How much better does the haste proc make it then say, the S2 merciless One-handed axe? Or the T3 axe smith one-hander?
I think i even saw someone say it's the best 1 hander until illidan's legendaries?
I think i even saw someone say it's the best 1 hander until illidan's legendaries?
Actually, Fast/Fast isn't even better than Slow/Fast in Execute range when you have either enough Haste Rating to get your mainhand under 1,5 speed or get enough rage through Offhand hits to spam Execute non-stop.
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Originally Posted by Hidden
Actually, Fast/Fast isn't even better than Slow/Fast in Execute range when you have either enough Haste Rating to get your mainhand under 1,5 speed or get enough rage through Offhand hits to spam Execute non-stop.
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Even if you get enough haste to drop the mainhand speed below 1.5 (which takes a lot of haste)--you can still miss.
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Originally Posted by Natural
I don't think it's feasible for a 1.5 offhand to generate 12 rage every attack. Do you have reason to believe it's possible?
Even if you get enough haste to drop the mainhand speed below 1.5 (which takes a lot of haste)--you can still miss. |
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Originally Posted by Calgar
Everyone is saying "Dragonstrike is amazing!"...seems like a recent development. How much better does the haste proc make it then say, the S2 merciless One-handed axe? Or the T3 axe smith one-hander?
I think i even saw someone say it's the best 1 hander until illidan's legendaries? |
And it is the best MH until Illidan's legendaries hands down, no question.
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Originally Posted by Hidden
Look at my weapon combination, I can spam Execute non-stop without ever getting too low on rage. I must admit it wasn't as reliable when I had 0/2 Imp. Execute, but with 2/2 it's totally possible.
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In my case, I am switching out a [Rising Tide] for [Tracker's Blade] in the MH during execute, so I don't have much to lose.
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Originally Posted by Natural
Yeah, with Dragonspine and Dragonstrike I can imagine getting enough haste for that most of the time. In the end, we're essentially only talking about optimizing a few tenths of a second per execute. I'm sure the marginal benefit of improving this is pretty small. In your case, I would probably keep the dragonstrike for the haste rating during execute anyway.
In my case, I am switching out a [Rising Tide] for [Tracker's Blade] in the MH during execute, so I don't have much to lose. |
Using myself as an example, i'm using Rising Tide mainhand Swiftsteel offhand, 96 haste rating from gear. 17/44 fairly cookie cutter build with 5/5 Flurry...
Just calculating for the mainhand - with flurry up..
ws = 2.6 / 1.25 * ((96/10.52)/100)+1
ws = 2.6 / 1.25 * 1.09
ws = 2.6 / 1.3625
ws = 1.9
If the local Shaman drops Heroism during execute..
ws = 2.6 / 1.30 * 1.25 * 1.09
ws = 2.6 / 1.77
ws = 1.46
So provided I get heroism during execute phase, my main hand should swing quicker than the global cooldown. Not counting the fact that I might be under the effect of Dragonspine or a Mongoose proc (or Haste potions).
Quick back of the envelope math tells me that if I don't/can't get Heroism during execute phase I should drop a Haste potion (400 haste rating for 15 sec) to achieve a similar effect.
Just calculating for the mainhand - with flurry up..
ws = 2.6 / 1.25 * ((96/10.52)/100)+1
ws = 2.6 / 1.25 * 1.09
ws = 2.6 / 1.3625
ws = 1.9
If the local Shaman drops Heroism during execute..
ws = 2.6 / 1.30 * 1.25 * 1.09
ws = 2.6 / 1.77
ws = 1.46
So provided I get heroism during execute phase, my main hand should swing quicker than the global cooldown. Not counting the fact that I might be under the effect of Dragonspine or a Mongoose proc (or Haste potions).
Quick back of the envelope math tells me that if I don't/can't get Heroism during execute phase I should drop a Haste potion (400 haste rating for 15 sec) to achieve a similar effect.
Newbie question about execute... what comes in the equation of execute??
From my dim knowledge, its a fixated damage plus extra rage?
fishing pole will deal same execute damage as cataclysms?
Where does AP apply to execute dmg?
From my dim knowledge, its a fixated damage plus extra rage?
fishing pole will deal same execute damage as cataclysms?
Where does AP apply to execute dmg?
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Originally Posted by Gograh
its a fixated damage plus extra rage?
fishing pole will deal same execute damage as cataclysms? Where does AP apply to execute dmg? |
Execute damage is purely based on the amount of rage you feed into it. The amount of damage you get off of the first 10 rage (improved) is better than what you get out of extra rage so it is better to chain execute every 1.5 seconds than to save rage. Most of this can be deduced simply from reading the tooltip.
Edited onPatch 2.1.3
so my dim knowledge about reading the tooltip was right =p
execute = get weapons to generate rage (fast, I guess)...
but not every tooltips say exactly the calculations of the skill, thats why I humbly asked...
like, ms tooltip says nothing about the normalized weapon's speed getting into the calculation, does it?
if it does I apologize for notreading them properly =/
execute = get weapons to generate rage (fast, I guess)...
but not every tooltips say exactly the calculations of the skill, thats why I humbly asked...
like, ms tooltip says nothing about the normalized weapon's speed getting into the calculation, does it?
if it does I apologize for notreading them properly =/
Last edited by Gograh : 08/16/07 at 4:10 PM.
Dealing with Threat
I've been having some threat issues lately on boss fights, and have been wondering how many of you deal with your threat issues. I die weekly on Void Reaver (even with very few heroic strikes and a paltry ~840 DPS) and also have issues on a few other fights. I've tried avoiding Heroic Strike altogether, but that usually results in my sitting with a full rage bar for 70% of the fight. I make sure that I have enough rage to dump into Bloodthirst and Whirlwind when cooldowns are up, and if I have more than 60 rage I'll toss out HS.
I've dropped 12 Agi on my cloak on favor of Subtlety, always ask for BoS, have had some Shrouding Potions made up, and have considered dropping Bloodlust Brooch for Timelapse Shard. I've also tried not doing any DPS until after the boss loses 5%+ of its health, but that doesn't seem to help all that much either. We have some pretty good DPS machines in our raid, and if I don't start with them at the beginning of the fight, it's hard for me to keep up sometimes. I'm a bit tired of holding back 90% of the time, and I figured that this problem will just get worse as I get better gear so I thought I would ask for some suggestions now.
Thanks!
I've dropped 12 Agi on my cloak on favor of Subtlety, always ask for BoS, have had some Shrouding Potions made up, and have considered dropping Bloodlust Brooch for Timelapse Shard. I've also tried not doing any DPS until after the boss loses 5%+ of its health, but that doesn't seem to help all that much either. We have some pretty good DPS machines in our raid, and if I don't start with them at the beginning of the fight, it's hard for me to keep up sometimes. I'm a bit tired of holding back 90% of the time, and I figured that this problem will just get worse as I get better gear so I thought I would ask for some suggestions now.
Thanks!
Timelapse shard will do nothing for you. Complete waste of a trinket slot if you use it.
That trinket's best use is reaching crit immune on resist fights.
That trinket's best use is reaching crit immune on resist fights.
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Originally Posted by Charsi
Using myself as an example, i'm using Rising Tide mainhand Swiftsteel offhand, 96 haste rating from gear. 17/44 fairly cookie cutter build with 5/5 Flurry...
Just calculating for the mainhand - with flurry up.. ws = 2.6 / 1.25 * ((96/10.52)/100)+1 ws = 2.6 / 1.25 * 1.09 ws = 2.6 / 1.3625 ws = 1.9 If the local Shaman drops Heroism during execute.. ws = 2.6 / 1.30 * 1.25 * 1.09 ws = 2.6 / 1.77 ws = 1.46 So provided I get heroism during execute phase, my main hand should swing quicker than the global cooldown. Not counting the fact that I might be under the effect of Dragonspine or a Mongoose proc (or Haste potions). Quick back of the envelope math tells me that if I don't/can't get Heroism during execute phase I should drop a Haste potion (400 haste rating for 15 sec) to achieve a similar effect. |
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Originally Posted by Garre
I've been having some threat issues lately on boss fights, and have been wondering how many of you deal with your threat issues. I die weekly on Void Reaver (even with very few heroic strikes and a paltry ~840 DPS) and also have issues on a few other fights. I've tried avoiding Heroic Strike altogether, but that usually results in my sitting with a full rage bar for 70% of the fight. I make sure that I have enough rage to dump into Bloodthirst and Whirlwind when cooldowns are up, and if I have more than 60 rage I'll toss out HS.
I've dropped 12 Agi on my cloak on favor of Subtlety, always ask for BoS, have had some Shrouding Potions made up, and have considered dropping Bloodlust Brooch for Timelapse Shard. I've also tried not doing any DPS until after the boss loses 5%+ of its health, but that doesn't seem to help all that much either. We have some pretty good DPS machines in our raid, and if I don't start with them at the beginning of the fight, it's hard for me to keep up sometimes. I'm a bit tired of holding back 90% of the time, and I figured that this problem will just get worse as I get better gear so I thought I would ask for some suggestions now. Thanks! |
I was lucky enough to pick up a [Fetish of the Sand Reaver] back in AQ40. It's still extremely effective at reducing threat if you pair it with bloodlust/deathwish. However, only find it necessary in a few fights. In SSC I use it for Leotharas and Lurker. On void reaver, the entire melee group should get tranqil air and threat shouldn't be a problem. In Hyjal/BT I only use it on Bloodboil and RoS.
I would recommend looking for a slower mainhand weapon for the reasons I listed in my earlier post. Also I would make sure that the tanks are getting chain mis-directed during the fight and that the tank is playing correctly. You should only be having threat issues on a few fights, some of which are done so by design.
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Originally Posted by Garre
I've been having some threat issues lately on boss fights, and have been wondering how many of you deal with your threat issues. I die weekly on Void Reaver (even with very few heroic strikes and a paltry ~840 DPS) and also have issues on a few other fights. I've tried avoiding Heroic Strike altogether, but that usually results in my sitting with a full rage bar for 70% of the fight. I make sure that I have enough rage to dump into Bloodthirst and Whirlwind when cooldowns are up, and if I have more than 60 rage I'll toss out HS.
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How many tanks do you have fighting for aggro? When we have 3 good ones, I wont pull aggro. We have actually done it with just 1 tank before and I obviously had troubles then, but not until the very end.
Our MT has really gone out of his way to work on threat, mixing gear up when he can afford to, and it really, really shows. Of everything we have killed, I can go balls out (again, assuming I have Salv) on pretty much every fight except Gorefiend.
Natural: Yeah, I wasn't ever lucky enough to pick one up. I think the entire time that we were working on AQ40 we only had one or two drop, and they went to casters.
I'm using [Dragonmaw] in the main hand right now, not sure if there's anything better or slower that I can get ahold of atm.
I know the Void Reaver fight has some aggro mechanics that tend to make the fight more quirky, but I will suggest my Shaman drop TA totem next time to see if it will help. It would actually be nice to use my trinkets and Deathwish for once. Chain Misdirecting is also a good idea, I'll ask our resident Hunters to give it a try next week.
Hozz: We usually have three tanks for that fight, and they all do a good job at holding aggro. It just seems that when VR winds down below 15% or so, the threat starts to get a little bit funky. Same with Morogrim.
I would really like to start using Insane Strength and Haste pots on a regular basis for boss fights, but I am afraid of the consequences.
What about ability rotations? Right now I am saving rage for Bloodthirst and WW, then dumping extra rage into HS if I have over 60. Should I just be dumping that rage into Hamstring instead for extra Flurry procs?
I'm using [Dragonmaw] in the main hand right now, not sure if there's anything better or slower that I can get ahold of atm.
I know the Void Reaver fight has some aggro mechanics that tend to make the fight more quirky, but I will suggest my Shaman drop TA totem next time to see if it will help. It would actually be nice to use my trinkets and Deathwish for once. Chain Misdirecting is also a good idea, I'll ask our resident Hunters to give it a try next week.
Hozz: We usually have three tanks for that fight, and they all do a good job at holding aggro. It just seems that when VR winds down below 15% or so, the threat starts to get a little bit funky. Same with Morogrim.
I would really like to start using Insane Strength and Haste pots on a regular basis for boss fights, but I am afraid of the consequences.
What about ability rotations? Right now I am saving rage for Bloodthirst and WW, then dumping extra rage into HS if I have over 60. Should I just be dumping that rage into Hamstring instead for extra Flurry procs?
BT > WW > HS
though rage doesn't seem to be a problem for a fury warrior anymore.. more likely the aggro ^^
though rage doesn't seem to be a problem for a fury warrior anymore.. more likely the aggro ^^
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Originally Posted by Fogbug
This seems like the best thread to ask this: does anyone have any parses of them using the BT trinket? On a whim I used it for all of Archimonde and some SSC bosses tonight, and the proc seems more like 50% than 25%, but my sample size is still really small
examples: Chocula - WWS Chocula - WWS Chocula - WWS each heal from "fire blood" is a proc of the trinket if this is common knowledge or something then w/e. It does make the trinket a bit more appealing, though |
That looks like just a bit under 1/3rd of my MS's proccing it
here's the rub, though: A lot of those were while tanking, so I was using a fast mace to mortal strike with. None of this is really enough to be conclusive or even prove the proc rate is definitely above 25%, but is it possible it might be a PPM proc that only goes off on mortal strikes?
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Originally Posted by Fogbug
I wore the trinket for a bunch of SSC/TK content: Chocula - WWS
That looks like just a bit under 1/3rd of my MS's proccing it here's the rub, though: A lot of those were while tanking, so I was using a fast mace to mortal strike with. None of this is really enough to be conclusive or even prove the proc rate is definitely above 25%, but is it possible it might be a PPM proc that only goes off on mortal strikes? |
Regardless it seems like it's definitely a lot worse than Bloodlust Brooch for everything except super loatheb. I'm just gonna stop trying
Edited onPatch 2.1.3
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Originally Posted by Natural
Heroic Strike impact
With the slow MH you get more our of your heroic strike. Here's why: 1) The bonus from impale (+10% total dmg on crit) gets more bonus per rage/threat with a slow weapon. 2) Heroic strike increases the chance to hit. This gets bonus per rage/threat with a slower weapon. 3) Heroic strike cannot glance. This gets more bonus per rage/threat with a slower weapon. 3) Heroic strike increases damage by X. This is independent of weapon speed. Reasons 1-3 make heroic strike with a slower weapon more rage and threat efficient. If you are in a situation with no threat limitations and plenty of excess rage, a slower weapon will allow you to use bonus (4) much more quickly. |
The flat heroic strike bonus favours fast weapons.
The lessened miss chance, non glancing and impale work on fast weapons the same as they do on slow weapons, as they effectively modify your DPS value and do not favour fast or slow weapons. The point you make though and which I want to emphasize again: heroic striking with a slow weapon applies the main benefits (non glancing, less "miss") to a greater portion of your total damage (see it as a granularity thing).
Keep in mind that in exptreme cases (think Loatheb pre BC) Heroic striking with a fast weapon will produce way more damage than a slow weapon. At a heavy cost though: it produces a ton more aggro.
If rage and aggro is an issue, heroic striking with a slow weapon is better. I agree there.
EDIT: On second thought, I'm not so sure that heroic striking with a slow weapon is prefered in low rage situations. "Slow" means the benefits apply to a greater portion of your damage, but it also does amplify the "hidden" rage cost of a Heroic strike, as more white damage is lost from generating rage.
Would that not leave only the "less aggro" as a benefit of using slow weapons for a heroic strike?
I'm a little confused for now.
Last edited by suicuique : 08/17/07 at 5:51 AM. Reason: second thought
Edited onPatch 2.1.3
What do you think about spamming Hamstring Rank 1 or Rank 2 if you dont have more than lets say 50 Rage?
Normally im starting with Heroic Strike when my rage bar gets over 45 so there is still a base rage vor BT and WW!
Should i start spamming Hamstring to keep Flurry up or not?
When i just want to keep Flurry up i even dont need Rank 3 or Rank 4, because of their Bonus Threat!
Thanks for your help!
I dont have the gear to discuss in that Debate if its better to have fast/fast Weapon Combination or slow/fast, but im still a fan of Dragonstrike/Merciless OH till i get some better choices!
Normally im starting with Heroic Strike when my rage bar gets over 45 so there is still a base rage vor BT and WW!
Should i start spamming Hamstring to keep Flurry up or not?
When i just want to keep Flurry up i even dont need Rank 3 or Rank 4, because of their Bonus Threat!
Thanks for your help!
I dont have the gear to discuss in that Debate if its better to have fast/fast Weapon Combination or slow/fast, but im still a fan of Dragonstrike/Merciless OH till i get some better choices!
Last edited by Markara : 08/17/07 at 6:33 AM.
| Would that not leave only the "less aggro" as a benefit of using slow weapons for a heroic strike? |
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Originally Posted by Fogbug
Actually looking at the VR and morogrim parses this probably isn't the case, I was using a 2H fulltime for both of those
Regardless it seems like it's definitely a lot worse than Bloodlust Brooch for everything except super loatheb. I'm just gonna stop trying |
What do people think of rod of the sun king?
I picked this mace up the other day and straight after the mace from supremus dropped for us i passed as they didn't look much different but i have been thinking about it a bit more. Also considering offhanding a slow weapon, Not sure how it would work out.
I picked this mace up the other day and straight after the mace from supremus dropped for us i passed as they didn't look much different but i have been thinking about it a bit more. Also considering offhanding a slow weapon, Not sure how it would work out.
The BT faction trinket is just awful.
The STR part of the proc should be passive and the proc should be the heal part, same as now. As much of an improvement as that change would be, the trinket still wouldnt be equipped for most fights assuming you had your choice of trinkets that drop up to that point.
The STR part of the proc should be passive and the proc should be the heal part, same as now. As much of an improvement as that change would be, the trinket still wouldnt be equipped for most fights assuming you had your choice of trinkets that drop up to that point.
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Originally Posted by Hidden
Actually, Fast/Fast isn't even better than Slow/Fast in Execute range when you have either enough Haste Rating to get your mainhand under 1,5 speed or get enough rage through Offhand hits to spam Execute non-stop.
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Even if you get enough haste to drop the mainhand speed below 1.5 (which takes a lot of haste)--you can still miss.
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Originally Posted by Natural
I don't think it's feasible for a 1.5 offhand to generate 12 rage every attack. Do you have reason to believe it's possible?
Even if you get enough haste to drop the mainhand speed below 1.5 (which takes a lot of haste)--you can still miss. |
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Originally Posted by Calgar
Everyone is saying "Dragonstrike is amazing!"...seems like a recent development. How much better does the haste proc make it then say, the S2 merciless One-handed axe? Or the T3 axe smith one-hander?
I think i even saw someone say it's the best 1 hander until illidan's legendaries? |
And it is the best MH until Illidan's legendaries hands down, no question.
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Originally Posted by Hidden
Look at my weapon combination, I can spam Execute non-stop without ever getting too low on rage. I must admit it wasn't as reliable when I had 0/2 Imp. Execute, but with 2/2 it's totally possible.
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In my case, I am switching out a [Rising Tide] for [Tracker's Blade] in the MH during execute, so I don't have much to lose.
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Originally Posted by Natural
Yeah, with Dragonspine and Dragonstrike I can imagine getting enough haste for that most of the time. In the end, we're essentially only talking about optimizing a few tenths of a second per execute. I'm sure the marginal benefit of improving this is pretty small. In your case, I would probably keep the dragonstrike for the haste rating during execute anyway.
In my case, I am switching out a [Rising Tide] for [Tracker's Blade] in the MH during execute, so I don't have much to lose. |
Using myself as an example, i'm using Rising Tide mainhand Swiftsteel offhand, 96 haste rating from gear. 17/44 fairly cookie cutter build with 5/5 Flurry...
Just calculating for the mainhand - with flurry up..
ws = 2.6 / 1.25 * ((96/10.52)/100)+1
ws = 2.6 / 1.25 * 1.09
ws = 2.6 / 1.3625
ws = 1.9
If the local Shaman drops Heroism during execute..
ws = 2.6 / 1.30 * 1.25 * 1.09
ws = 2.6 / 1.77
ws = 1.46
So provided I get heroism during execute phase, my main hand should swing quicker than the global cooldown. Not counting the fact that I might be under the effect of Dragonspine or a Mongoose proc (or Haste potions).
Quick back of the envelope math tells me that if I don't/can't get Heroism during execute phase I should drop a Haste potion (400 haste rating for 15 sec) to achieve a similar effect.
Just calculating for the mainhand - with flurry up..
ws = 2.6 / 1.25 * ((96/10.52)/100)+1
ws = 2.6 / 1.25 * 1.09
ws = 2.6 / 1.3625
ws = 1.9
If the local Shaman drops Heroism during execute..
ws = 2.6 / 1.30 * 1.25 * 1.09
ws = 2.6 / 1.77
ws = 1.46
So provided I get heroism during execute phase, my main hand should swing quicker than the global cooldown. Not counting the fact that I might be under the effect of Dragonspine or a Mongoose proc (or Haste potions).
Quick back of the envelope math tells me that if I don't/can't get Heroism during execute phase I should drop a Haste potion (400 haste rating for 15 sec) to achieve a similar effect.
Newbie question about execute... what comes in the equation of execute??
From my dim knowledge, its a fixated damage plus extra rage?
fishing pole will deal same execute damage as cataclysms?
Where does AP apply to execute dmg?
From my dim knowledge, its a fixated damage plus extra rage?
fishing pole will deal same execute damage as cataclysms?
Where does AP apply to execute dmg?
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Originally Posted by Gograh
its a fixated damage plus extra rage?
fishing pole will deal same execute damage as cataclysms? Where does AP apply to execute dmg? |
Execute damage is purely based on the amount of rage you feed into it. The amount of damage you get off of the first 10 rage (improved) is better than what you get out of extra rage so it is better to chain execute every 1.5 seconds than to save rage. Most of this can be deduced simply from reading the tooltip.
Edited onPatch 2.1.3
so my dim knowledge about reading the tooltip was right =p
execute = get weapons to generate rage (fast, I guess)...
but not every tooltips say exactly the calculations of the skill, thats why I humbly asked...
like, ms tooltip says nothing about the normalized weapon's speed getting into the calculation, does it?
if it does I apologize for notreading them properly =/
execute = get weapons to generate rage (fast, I guess)...
but not every tooltips say exactly the calculations of the skill, thats why I humbly asked...
like, ms tooltip says nothing about the normalized weapon's speed getting into the calculation, does it?
if it does I apologize for notreading them properly =/
Last edited by Gograh : 08/16/07 at 4:10 PM.
Dealing with Threat
I've been having some threat issues lately on boss fights, and have been wondering how many of you deal with your threat issues. I die weekly on Void Reaver (even with very few heroic strikes and a paltry ~840 DPS) and also have issues on a few other fights. I've tried avoiding Heroic Strike altogether, but that usually results in my sitting with a full rage bar for 70% of the fight. I make sure that I have enough rage to dump into Bloodthirst and Whirlwind when cooldowns are up, and if I have more than 60 rage I'll toss out HS.
I've dropped 12 Agi on my cloak on favor of Subtlety, always ask for BoS, have had some Shrouding Potions made up, and have considered dropping Bloodlust Brooch for Timelapse Shard. I've also tried not doing any DPS until after the boss loses 5%+ of its health, but that doesn't seem to help all that much either. We have some pretty good DPS machines in our raid, and if I don't start with them at the beginning of the fight, it's hard for me to keep up sometimes. I'm a bit tired of holding back 90% of the time, and I figured that this problem will just get worse as I get better gear so I thought I would ask for some suggestions now.
Thanks!
I've dropped 12 Agi on my cloak on favor of Subtlety, always ask for BoS, have had some Shrouding Potions made up, and have considered dropping Bloodlust Brooch for Timelapse Shard. I've also tried not doing any DPS until after the boss loses 5%+ of its health, but that doesn't seem to help all that much either. We have some pretty good DPS machines in our raid, and if I don't start with them at the beginning of the fight, it's hard for me to keep up sometimes. I'm a bit tired of holding back 90% of the time, and I figured that this problem will just get worse as I get better gear so I thought I would ask for some suggestions now.
Thanks!
Timelapse shard will do nothing for you. Complete waste of a trinket slot if you use it.
That trinket's best use is reaching crit immune on resist fights.
That trinket's best use is reaching crit immune on resist fights.
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Originally Posted by Charsi
Using myself as an example, i'm using Rising Tide mainhand Swiftsteel offhand, 96 haste rating from gear. 17/44 fairly cookie cutter build with 5/5 Flurry...
Just calculating for the mainhand - with flurry up.. ws = 2.6 / 1.25 * ((96/10.52)/100)+1 ws = 2.6 / 1.25 * 1.09 ws = 2.6 / 1.3625 ws = 1.9 If the local Shaman drops Heroism during execute.. ws = 2.6 / 1.30 * 1.25 * 1.09 ws = 2.6 / 1.77 ws = 1.46 So provided I get heroism during execute phase, my main hand should swing quicker than the global cooldown. Not counting the fact that I might be under the effect of Dragonspine or a Mongoose proc (or Haste potions). Quick back of the envelope math tells me that if I don't/can't get Heroism during execute phase I should drop a Haste potion (400 haste rating for 15 sec) to achieve a similar effect. |
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Originally Posted by Garre
I've been having some threat issues lately on boss fights, and have been wondering how many of you deal with your threat issues. I die weekly on Void Reaver (even with very few heroic strikes and a paltry ~840 DPS) and also have issues on a few other fights. I've tried avoiding Heroic Strike altogether, but that usually results in my sitting with a full rage bar for 70% of the fight. I make sure that I have enough rage to dump into Bloodthirst and Whirlwind when cooldowns are up, and if I have more than 60 rage I'll toss out HS.
I've dropped 12 Agi on my cloak on favor of Subtlety, always ask for BoS, have had some Shrouding Potions made up, and have considered dropping Bloodlust Brooch for Timelapse Shard. I've also tried not doing any DPS until after the boss loses 5%+ of its health, but that doesn't seem to help all that much either. We have some pretty good DPS machines in our raid, and if I don't start with them at the beginning of the fight, it's hard for me to keep up sometimes. I'm a bit tired of holding back 90% of the time, and I figured that this problem will just get worse as I get better gear so I thought I would ask for some suggestions now. Thanks! |
I was lucky enough to pick up a [Fetish of the Sand Reaver] back in AQ40. It's still extremely effective at reducing threat if you pair it with bloodlust/deathwish. However, only find it necessary in a few fights. In SSC I use it for Leotharas and Lurker. On void reaver, the entire melee group should get tranqil air and threat shouldn't be a problem. In Hyjal/BT I only use it on Bloodboil and RoS.
I would recommend looking for a slower mainhand weapon for the reasons I listed in my earlier post. Also I would make sure that the tanks are getting chain mis-directed during the fight and that the tank is playing correctly. You should only be having threat issues on a few fights, some of which are done so by design.
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Originally Posted by Garre
I've been having some threat issues lately on boss fights, and have been wondering how many of you deal with your threat issues. I die weekly on Void Reaver (even with very few heroic strikes and a paltry ~840 DPS) and also have issues on a few other fights. I've tried avoiding Heroic Strike altogether, but that usually results in my sitting with a full rage bar for 70% of the fight. I make sure that I have enough rage to dump into Bloodthirst and Whirlwind when cooldowns are up, and if I have more than 60 rage I'll toss out HS.
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How many tanks do you have fighting for aggro? When we have 3 good ones, I wont pull aggro. We have actually done it with just 1 tank before and I obviously had troubles then, but not until the very end.
Our MT has really gone out of his way to work on threat, mixing gear up when he can afford to, and it really, really shows. Of everything we have killed, I can go balls out (again, assuming I have Salv) on pretty much every fight except Gorefiend.
Natural: Yeah, I wasn't ever lucky enough to pick one up. I think the entire time that we were working on AQ40 we only had one or two drop, and they went to casters.
I'm using [Dragonmaw] in the main hand right now, not sure if there's anything better or slower that I can get ahold of atm.
I know the Void Reaver fight has some aggro mechanics that tend to make the fight more quirky, but I will suggest my Shaman drop TA totem next time to see if it will help. It would actually be nice to use my trinkets and Deathwish for once. Chain Misdirecting is also a good idea, I'll ask our resident Hunters to give it a try next week.
Hozz: We usually have three tanks for that fight, and they all do a good job at holding aggro. It just seems that when VR winds down below 15% or so, the threat starts to get a little bit funky. Same with Morogrim.
I would really like to start using Insane Strength and Haste pots on a regular basis for boss fights, but I am afraid of the consequences.
What about ability rotations? Right now I am saving rage for Bloodthirst and WW, then dumping extra rage into HS if I have over 60. Should I just be dumping that rage into Hamstring instead for extra Flurry procs?
I'm using [Dragonmaw] in the main hand right now, not sure if there's anything better or slower that I can get ahold of atm.
I know the Void Reaver fight has some aggro mechanics that tend to make the fight more quirky, but I will suggest my Shaman drop TA totem next time to see if it will help. It would actually be nice to use my trinkets and Deathwish for once. Chain Misdirecting is also a good idea, I'll ask our resident Hunters to give it a try next week.
Hozz: We usually have three tanks for that fight, and they all do a good job at holding aggro. It just seems that when VR winds down below 15% or so, the threat starts to get a little bit funky. Same with Morogrim.
I would really like to start using Insane Strength and Haste pots on a regular basis for boss fights, but I am afraid of the consequences.
What about ability rotations? Right now I am saving rage for Bloodthirst and WW, then dumping extra rage into HS if I have over 60. Should I just be dumping that rage into Hamstring instead for extra Flurry procs?
BT > WW > HS
though rage doesn't seem to be a problem for a fury warrior anymore.. more likely the aggro ^^
though rage doesn't seem to be a problem for a fury warrior anymore.. more likely the aggro ^^
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Originally Posted by Fogbug
This seems like the best thread to ask this: does anyone have any parses of them using the BT trinket? On a whim I used it for all of Archimonde and some SSC bosses tonight, and the proc seems more like 50% than 25%, but my sample size is still really small
examples: Chocula - WWS Chocula - WWS Chocula - WWS each heal from "fire blood" is a proc of the trinket if this is common knowledge or something then w/e. It does make the trinket a bit more appealing, though |
That looks like just a bit under 1/3rd of my MS's proccing it
here's the rub, though: A lot of those were while tanking, so I was using a fast mace to mortal strike with. None of this is really enough to be conclusive or even prove the proc rate is definitely above 25%, but is it possible it might be a PPM proc that only goes off on mortal strikes?
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Originally Posted by Fogbug
I wore the trinket for a bunch of SSC/TK content: Chocula - WWS
That looks like just a bit under 1/3rd of my MS's proccing it here's the rub, though: A lot of those were while tanking, so I was using a fast mace to mortal strike with. None of this is really enough to be conclusive or even prove the proc rate is definitely above 25%, but is it possible it might be a PPM proc that only goes off on mortal strikes? |
Regardless it seems like it's definitely a lot worse than Bloodlust Brooch for everything except super loatheb. I'm just gonna stop trying
Edited onPatch 2.1.3
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Originally Posted by Natural
Heroic Strike impact
With the slow MH you get more our of your heroic strike. Here's why: 1) The bonus from impale (+10% total dmg on crit) gets more bonus per rage/threat with a slow weapon. 2) Heroic strike increases the chance to hit. This gets bonus per rage/threat with a slower weapon. 3) Heroic strike cannot glance. This gets more bonus per rage/threat with a slower weapon. 3) Heroic strike increases damage by X. This is independent of weapon speed. Reasons 1-3 make heroic strike with a slower weapon more rage and threat efficient. If you are in a situation with no threat limitations and plenty of excess rage, a slower weapon will allow you to use bonus (4) much more quickly. |
The flat heroic strike bonus favours fast weapons.
The lessened miss chance, non glancing and impale work on fast weapons the same as they do on slow weapons, as they effectively modify your DPS value and do not favour fast or slow weapons. The point you make though and which I want to emphasize again: heroic striking with a slow weapon applies the main benefits (non glancing, less "miss") to a greater portion of your total damage (see it as a granularity thing).
Keep in mind that in exptreme cases (think Loatheb pre BC) Heroic striking with a fast weapon will produce way more damage than a slow weapon. At a heavy cost though: it produces a ton more aggro.
If rage and aggro is an issue, heroic striking with a slow weapon is better. I agree there.
EDIT: On second thought, I'm not so sure that heroic striking with a slow weapon is prefered in low rage situations. "Slow" means the benefits apply to a greater portion of your damage, but it also does amplify the "hidden" rage cost of a Heroic strike, as more white damage is lost from generating rage.
Would that not leave only the "less aggro" as a benefit of using slow weapons for a heroic strike?
I'm a little confused for now.
Last edited by suicuique : 08/17/07 at 5:51 AM. Reason: second thought
Edited onPatch 2.1.3
What do you think about spamming Hamstring Rank 1 or Rank 2 if you dont have more than lets say 50 Rage?
Normally im starting with Heroic Strike when my rage bar gets over 45 so there is still a base rage vor BT and WW!
Should i start spamming Hamstring to keep Flurry up or not?
When i just want to keep Flurry up i even dont need Rank 3 or Rank 4, because of their Bonus Threat!
Thanks for your help!
I dont have the gear to discuss in that Debate if its better to have fast/fast Weapon Combination or slow/fast, but im still a fan of Dragonstrike/Merciless OH till i get some better choices!
Normally im starting with Heroic Strike when my rage bar gets over 45 so there is still a base rage vor BT and WW!
Should i start spamming Hamstring to keep Flurry up or not?
When i just want to keep Flurry up i even dont need Rank 3 or Rank 4, because of their Bonus Threat!
Thanks for your help!
I dont have the gear to discuss in that Debate if its better to have fast/fast Weapon Combination or slow/fast, but im still a fan of Dragonstrike/Merciless OH till i get some better choices!
Last edited by Markara : 08/17/07 at 6:33 AM.
| Would that not leave only the "less aggro" as a benefit of using slow weapons for a heroic strike? |
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Originally Posted by Fogbug
Actually looking at the VR and morogrim parses this probably isn't the case, I was using a 2H fulltime for both of those
Regardless it seems like it's definitely a lot worse than Bloodlust Brooch for everything except super loatheb. I'm just gonna stop trying |
What do people think of rod of the sun king?
I picked this mace up the other day and straight after the mace from supremus dropped for us i passed as they didn't look much different but i have been thinking about it a bit more. Also considering offhanding a slow weapon, Not sure how it would work out.
I picked this mace up the other day and straight after the mace from supremus dropped for us i passed as they didn't look much different but i have been thinking about it a bit more. Also considering offhanding a slow weapon, Not sure how it would work out.
The BT faction trinket is just awful.
The STR part of the proc should be passive and the proc should be the heal part, same as now. As much of an improvement as that change would be, the trinket still wouldnt be equipped for most fights assuming you had your choice of trinkets that drop up to that point.
The STR part of the proc should be passive and the proc should be the heal part, same as now. As much of an improvement as that change would be, the trinket still wouldnt be equipped for most fights assuming you had your choice of trinkets that drop up to that point.
The trinket seems to be put in place to guarantee that a class has a B- trinket if your guild has had somewhat bad luck on melee trinket drops. 3 rogues, one hunter and another dps war are still all salivating at DPS trinkets in our guild. The fact that if I was still tanking everyday that I would still be using Styleen's, given the one Hydross drop went to a warrior who had no Styleen's, makes me think they are trying to slowly scale trinkets away from doing something different for you from normal or way beyond normal, and instead to being like another piece of armor.
That being said, I've been wondering if Haste is something that has increased in usefulness for a 2h warrior with the W.F. change, and if I should try to farm Gruul's since we do not kill him on a weekly basis anymore.
That being said, I've been wondering if Haste is something that has increased in usefulness for a 2h warrior with the W.F. change, and if I should try to farm Gruul's since we do not kill him on a weekly basis anymore.
We have truly awful luck on trinkets. 1 DST in 20+ Gruul kills. 1 Tsunami. 0 Solarians. 0 Warp Spring.
I still would not use the BT faction trinket and honestly I cant imagine anyone else in our guild using it, for DPS or tanking.
I still would not use the BT faction trinket and honestly I cant imagine anyone else in our guild using it, for DPS or tanking.
Edited onPatch 2.1.3
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Originally Posted by suicuique
I disagree with point (4) (labeled wrongly as a second (3) ) of yours.
The flat heroic strike bonus favours fast weapons. The lessened miss chance, non glancing and impale work on fast weapons the same as they do on slow weapons, as they effectively modify your DPS value and do not favour fast or slow weapons. The point you make though and which I want to emphasize again: heroic striking with a slow weapon applies the main benefits (non glancing, less "miss") to a greater portion of your total damage (see it as a granularity thing). Keep in mind that in exptreme cases (think Loatheb pre BC) Heroic striking with a fast weapon will produce way more damage than a slow weapon. At a heavy cost though: it produces a ton more aggro. If rage and aggro is an issue, heroic striking with a slow weapon is better. I agree there. EDIT: On second thought, I'm not so sure that heroic striking with a slow weapon is prefered in low rage situations. "Slow" means the benefits apply to a greater portion of your damage, but it also does amplify the "hidden" rage cost of a Heroic strike, as more white damage is lost from generating rage. Would that not leave only the "less aggro" as a benefit of using slow weapons for a heroic strike? I'm a little confused for now. |
The opportunity cost of your heroic strike swing is proportionally the same for a slow or a fast weapon because the hidden benefits it provides (+chance to hit, impale, no glancing) are also proportional to weapon speed.
The hidden benefits from heroic strike with a 1.5 speed weapon cause 73% more threat and cost 73% more rage than with a 2.6 speed weapon. Without flurry, if 50% of your swings in a minute were heroic strikes, it would cost 132 rage and 2420 threat for a 2.6 weapon (11 swings). It would cost 240 rage and 4400 threat for a 1.5 weapon (20 swings).
The net difference is that the dagger produces 1872 more base damage for 1980 threat and 108 rage.
The only benefit of using heroic strike with a faster weapon is to gain the +damage bonus quickly if you have no threat or rage concerns. An earlier poster is correct--the only encounter in the game where this is the case is probably Loatheb.
Last edited by Natural : 08/17/07 at 10:53 AM.
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Originally Posted by Natural
I will edit my above post to clarify point #4. In terms of pure DPS, heroic strike can obviously be used faster with faster weapons. I was focusing my list on damage-per-rage and damage-per-threat.
The opportunity cost of your heroic strike swing is proportionally the same for a slow or a fast weapon because the hidden benefits it provides (+chance to hit, impale, no glancing) are also proportional to weapon speed. The hidden benefits from heroic strike with a 1.5 speed weapon cause 73% more threat and cost 73% more rage than with a 2.6 speed weapon. Without flurry, if 50% of your swings in a minute were heroic strikes, it would cost 132 rage and 2420 threat for a 2.6 weapon (11 swings). It would cost 240 rage and 4400 threat for a 1.5 weapon (20 swings). The net difference is that the dagger produces 1872 more base damage for 1980 threat and 108 rage. The only benefit of using heroic strike with a faster weapon is to gain the +damage bonus quickly if you have no threat or rage concerns. An earlier poster is correct--the only encounter in the game where this is the case is probably Loatheb. |
Zero-Armor
2.6 - 819 Damage: 819 / 73 + 2.6 * 1.75 = 11 + 4.5 = 15.5
1.5 - 472.5 Damage: 472.5 / 73 + 1.5 * 1.75 = 6.5 + 2.5 = 9
10% Armor Reduction
2.6 - 737 Damage: 737 / 73 + 2.6 * 1.75 = 10 + 4.5 = 14.5
1.5 - 425 Damage: 425 / 73 + 1.5 * 1.75 = 6 + 2.5 = 8.5
20% Armor Reduction
2.6 - 655 Damage: 655 / 73 + 2.6 * 1.75 = 9 + 4.5 = 13.5
1.5 - 378 Damage: 378 / 73 + 1.5 * 1.75 = 5 + 1.5 = 6.5
So to rerun your numbers in the same scenario, the 2.6 speed weapon loses 11 * 13.5 additional rage and the 1.5 speed weapon loses 20 * 6.5 additional rage.
This puts it at 280 rage and 2420 threat for a 2.6 speed weapon at 11 swings, and 370 rage and 4400 threat for a 1.5 speed weapon. While I believe you were trying to use the same % of swings so as to avoid calculating Impale and the +hit modifier, it is interesting to see the results when you compare them for the same Rage cost (since, presumably, your overall rage generation is much the same no matter what). At 15 swings, the 1.5 speed weapon costs 180 + 97.5 = 277.5 Rage, and will generate 2940 bonus threat.
Don't get me wrong - using a quicker weapon is undeniably worse in this situation, since for the same rage cost you're generating around 21% more threat and receiving a considerably smaller +hit/Impale bonus, but it is a little bit closer than the situation you described.
Edited onPatch 2.1.3
Nvm, RPzip covered it.
Except for the same amount of Heroic Strikes (15), the 2.6 speed weapon ends up losing an additional 105 rage doesn't it?
Except for the same amount of Heroic Strikes (15), the 2.6 speed weapon ends up losing an additional 105 rage doesn't it?
Last edited by Graul : 08/17/07 at 12:25 PM.
Edited onPatch 2.1.3
Unless there is some error in your calculations, you are implying that a 2.6 speed weapon generates more rage than a 1.5 speed weapon.
2.6 speed: 11.53*13.5 = 155.6 rage generated. (To be precise, 11.53 swings in 30 seconds)
1.5 speed: 20*6.5 = 130 rage generated
What about critical strikes? What about glancing blows? I believe this is an oversimplification of the opportunity cost. If you assume that both weapon speeds generate the same rage over time, then 30 seconds of heroic strike should have an equal opportunity cost for both weapons.
I have not spent much time analyzing the rage formula but my assumption was that it was independent of weapon speed. Please correct me if I'm wrong.
2.6 speed: 11.53*13.5 = 155.6 rage generated. (To be precise, 11.53 swings in 30 seconds)
1.5 speed: 20*6.5 = 130 rage generated
What about critical strikes? What about glancing blows? I believe this is an oversimplification of the opportunity cost. If you assume that both weapon speeds generate the same rage over time, then 30 seconds of heroic strike should have an equal opportunity cost for both weapons.
I have not spent much time analyzing the rage formula but my assumption was that it was independent of weapon speed. Please correct me if I'm wrong.
Last edited by Natural : 08/17/07 at 12:50 PM.
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Unless there is some error in your calculations, you are implying that a 2.6 speed weapon generates more rage than a 1.5 speed weapon. 2.6 speed: 11.53*13.5 = 155.6 rage generated. (To be precise, 11.53 swings in 30 seconds) 1.5 speed: 20*6.5 = 130 rage generated |
Worldofraids forums :: Haste rating hidden changes on PTR
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Haste Rating (melee) Live: 10.5 haste rating for 1% haste PTR: 15.7 haste rating for 1% haste |
Thats just retarded. After the WF nerf Im struggling for top 5 dps spot, now with the haste nerf I'd be lucky to stay in the top 10.
Looks like warlocks got what they wanted yet again.
Looks like warlocks got what they wanted yet again.
It's not the same, but it's similar to when they nerfed proc's that would proc themselves. A large part of that was due to TF damage.
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Originally Posted by Calgar
Everyone is saying "Dragonstrike is amazing!"...seems like a recent development. How much better does the haste proc make it then say, the S2 merciless One-handed axe? Or the T3 axe smith one-hander?
I think i even saw someone say it's the best 1 hander until illidan's legendaries? |
I have the T2 axe at the moment, and I'm one vortex away from T3: I collected all the mats to switch over to [Dragonstrike] though (I have a DST). Do I still bother, or just go for the stats on [Wicked Edge of the Planes] ?
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Originally Posted by Boozie
With the haste nerf incoming, does this statement still stand ?
I have the T2 axe at the moment, and I'm one vortex away from T3: I collected all the mats to switch over to [Dragonstrike] though (I have a DST). Do I still bother, or just go for the stats on [Wicked Edge of the Planes] ? |
from what i understand dragonstrike is the single best 1 hander in game for a warrior, not sure about the legendaries. that is after the haste nerf.
The melee haste nerf has been confirmed as intentional and not a bug here. The relevant section:
# Haste: Haste has been rebalanced. It has returned to the ratios from the launch of Burning Crusade. Melee attacks and spell casts will now benefit at identical rates from haste. This change results in a reduction in the benefit of haste for melee attacks and an increase in the benefit for spellcasters.
# Haste: Haste has been rebalanced. It has returned to the ratios from the launch of Burning Crusade. Melee attacks and spell casts will now benefit at identical rates from haste. This change results in a reduction in the benefit of haste for melee attacks and an increase in the benefit for spellcasters.
I just had a quick question regarding the next OH upgrade as a fury warrior. Currently I am using the wicked edge of the planes as my MH and merciless gladiators hacker OH. My guild is working through SSC and TK at the moment, so i was curious to know the next best upgrade for my OH
[Swiftsteel Bludgeon] - Black Temple trash once you get in there.
[Tracker's Blade] will also be a great offhand after the haste nerf.
I wonder which of the above is the better offhand for a Human. It'll be roughly 1% crit versus 1.7% haste and 3% offhand hit.
So with haste for melee being nerfed I cant see the dragonstrike been top dog anymore. You are better off getting a t3 axe for the stats. Not sure if its worth stacking to much static haste gear either. DST I think is still worth it even though you lose 10% from it.
so there is no better OH weapon then the merciless gladiators hacker in TK or SSC??
All weapons in TK/SSC except for Vashj/Kael Loot have a much lower item value (128 IIRC) which leads to a 93,x DPS weapon. The stats might not be optimal, but thats about all.
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Originally Posted by ckaparos
So with haste for melee being nerfed I cant see the dragonstrike been top dog anymore. You are better off getting a t3 axe for the stats. Not sure if its worth stacking to much static haste gear either. DST I think is still worth it even though you lose 10% from it.
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Anyone else compare haste to +hit after the yellow hit cap?
15.7 haste: 1% more swings in a give period of time
15.8 hit: 1% more hits
Given the time period of 100 swings, 35% crit, 24% glancing, 5.6% dodge, 15% miss, rest hit.
Base Stats:
100 Swings, 35 crits, 24 glancing at 75% damage, 5.6 dodges, 15 misses, 20.4 hits
Total weapon damage: 108.4x
+10% Hit
100 swings, 35 crits, 24 glancing at 75% damage, 5.6 dodges, 5 misses, 30.4 hits
Total Weapon Damage: 118.4
+10% Haste
110 swings, 38.5 crits, 26.4 glancing at 75% damage, 6.16 dodges, 16.5 misses, 22.44 hits
Total Weapon Damage: 119.24
Some of my values might be a little off, but it's a comparable rate of return with haste being slightly more preferrable and both only modify white damage. An additional point is that you can cap hit and not haste. When looking at passive haste items, I keep this in mind for comparison as I have a general idea how much I value +hit.
Additionally, given the amount of rage that is attainable in a boss encounter, has anyone done any in depth comparison to using an imp OP/TM build (12/46/3) that would let you fill out the fury tree a couple points more and stance dance overpower (for significant rage usage) to cycle in a third instant attack without threat modifier? Give ~5% dodge, you get dodges fairly regularly and being able to OP every 20 seconds would not be unusual. I've been playing around with the warrior dps spread sheet and while it is not as high in pure DPS as an impale build, the threat savings from overpowering instead of HSing are significant. Deep wounds doesn't do much when DWing as an offhand crit tic isn't very powerful and you frequently have it refreshed before it tics. Hmmm. I need to get some prot warriors back active in my guild so I can go back to DPS.
15.7 haste: 1% more swings in a give period of time
15.8 hit: 1% more hits
Given the time period of 100 swings, 35% crit, 24% glancing, 5.6% dodge, 15% miss, rest hit.
Base Stats:
100 Swings, 35 crits, 24 glancing at 75% damage, 5.6 dodges, 15 misses, 20.4 hits
Total weapon damage: 108.4x
+10% Hit
100 swings, 35 crits, 24 glancing at 75% damage, 5.6 dodges, 5 misses, 30.4 hits
Total Weapon Damage: 118.4
+10% Haste
110 swings, 38.5 crits, 26.4 glancing at 75% damage, 6.16 dodges, 16.5 misses, 22.44 hits
Total Weapon Damage: 119.24
Some of my values might be a little off, but it's a comparable rate of return with haste being slightly more preferrable and both only modify white damage. An additional point is that you can cap hit and not haste. When looking at passive haste items, I keep this in mind for comparison as I have a general idea how much I value +hit.
Additionally, given the amount of rage that is attainable in a boss encounter, has anyone done any in depth comparison to using an imp OP/TM build (12/46/3) that would let you fill out the fury tree a couple points more and stance dance overpower (for significant rage usage) to cycle in a third instant attack without threat modifier? Give ~5% dodge, you get dodges fairly regularly and being able to OP every 20 seconds would not be unusual. I've been playing around with the warrior dps spread sheet and while it is not as high in pure DPS as an impale build, the threat savings from overpowering instead of HSing are significant. Deep wounds doesn't do much when DWing as an offhand crit tic isn't very powerful and you frequently have it refreshed before it tics. Hmmm. I need to get some prot warriors back active in my guild so I can go back to DPS.
Kind of a change of direction here....but this has been bugging me for the last couple of weeks. Hopefully my rambling doesn't sound too whiny.
Reading through a couple of posts from other threads, and the results of the Wind fury, and soon to follow haste and mace spec nerf, I've started to question what Blizzard's intentions are for a "DPS" warrior. Most of the nerfs were to bring T6, dual legendary wielding, rogues in line with caster DPS, but the side effect was a rather severe hit to fury and a brutal nerf to Arms/MS damage in a raid setting.
The quote from earlier was something to the following effect. "Rogues, Mages and warlocks do a lot of DPS because that's all they can do. DPS Warriors have less DPS because blizzard thinks they can tank (with a respec, and change of gear)....". Then it went on to talk about how, because hybrids could do more, they did each job less then optimally.
Basically, that strikes me as a weak excuse for us not putting out competitive DPS. The last 2 weeks have seen me drop from first place on lurker, and a solid top 5 on every other SSC boss to 5-10 on most bosses. The crowning moment of my DPS career was last night, when our priest class leader decided to bring his alt Warlock (in heroic and 2-3 kz epics) into Gruul and our Void Reaver kill. He beat me on every single boss, and easily kept pace on the trash. It seriously made me question was i was even in the raid if a T4 quality warlock can put out more DPS then a T5+ DPS warrior can...All i brought was a battle shout to the rogues, which could have been handled by our second prot warrior being put in the rogue group.
Even moving into BT in a few month, I don't see a few hundred more AP, hit and crit making up for, or closing the gap on what our top DPS is putting out NOW, let alone when they are T6 geared as well.
And with Dual Wielding Death Knights on the horizon....I'm seeing less and less of a future for a DPS warrior. Are we just supposed to be content with "average" quality dps? Is that our new place? After having tasted the best pre-TBC, and even pre-WF nerf, it's really hard to swallow being second rate.
(Background; we are working on Vash'j, You can look me up on the armory, but short of a DST, Tsunami talisman and T5 DPS pants, I've got just about all the available gear from farmed content)
Reading through a couple of posts from other threads, and the results of the Wind fury, and soon to follow haste and mace spec nerf, I've started to question what Blizzard's intentions are for a "DPS" warrior. Most of the nerfs were to bring T6, dual legendary wielding, rogues in line with caster DPS, but the side effect was a rather severe hit to fury and a brutal nerf to Arms/MS damage in a raid setting.
The quote from earlier was something to the following effect. "Rogues, Mages and warlocks do a lot of DPS because that's all they can do. DPS Warriors have less DPS because blizzard thinks they can tank (with a respec, and change of gear)....". Then it went on to talk about how, because hybrids could do more, they did each job less then optimally.
Basically, that strikes me as a weak excuse for us not putting out competitive DPS. The last 2 weeks have seen me drop from first place on lurker, and a solid top 5 on every other SSC boss to 5-10 on most bosses. The crowning moment of my DPS career was last night, when our priest class leader decided to bring his alt Warlock (in heroic and 2-3 kz epics) into Gruul and our Void Reaver kill. He beat me on every single boss, and easily kept pace on the trash. It seriously made me question was i was even in the raid if a T4 quality warlock can put out more DPS then a T5+ DPS warrior can...All i brought was a battle shout to the rogues, which could have been handled by our second prot warrior being put in the rogue group.
Even moving into BT in a few month, I don't see a few hundred more AP, hit and crit making up for, or closing the gap on what our top DPS is putting out NOW, let alone when they are T6 geared as well.
And with Dual Wielding Death Knights on the horizon....I'm seeing less and less of a future for a DPS warrior. Are we just supposed to be content with "average" quality dps? Is that our new place? After having tasted the best pre-TBC, and even pre-WF nerf, it's really hard to swallow being second rate.
(Background; we are working on Vash'j, You can look me up on the armory, but short of a DST, Tsunami talisman and T5 DPS pants, I've got just about all the available gear from farmed content)
Edited onPatch 2.1.3
I can't see your armory, Calgar. Could you detail your stats, please, and possibly the group you find yourself in in a raid? Do you have a Shaman in your group? That would be of the greatest benefit.
Until two weeks ago I was 33/28 MS myself. The Windfury change was very drastic to the feel of my particular spec (which focussed on Slam). I ended up DW fury and find that the WF change doesn't seem too harsh in that regard. I was just crafting and stacking haste when news of that change hit as well; now I wear 4/5 Tier 5 + armorsmithing BP and find that it works better for me than the haste I had been wearing, simply because my crit is so much better and my flurry/rampage uptime more consistent.
Until two weeks ago I was 33/28 MS myself. The Windfury change was very drastic to the feel of my particular spec (which focussed on Slam). I ended up DW fury and find that the WF change doesn't seem too harsh in that regard. I was just crafting and stacking haste when news of that change hit as well; now I wear 4/5 Tier 5 + armorsmithing BP and find that it works better for me than the haste I had been wearing, simply because my crit is so much better and my flurry/rampage uptime more consistent.
Last edited by Charsi : 08/24/07 at 3:46 PM.
The trinket seems to be put in place to guarantee that a class has a B- trinket if your guild has had somewhat bad luck on melee trinket drops. 3 rogues, one hunter and another dps war are still all salivating at DPS trinkets in our guild. The fact that if I was still tanking everyday that I would still be using Styleen's, given the one Hydross drop went to a warrior who had no Styleen's, makes me think they are trying to slowly scale trinkets away from doing something different for you from normal or way beyond normal, and instead to being like another piece of armor.
That being said, I've been wondering if Haste is something that has increased in usefulness for a 2h warrior with the W.F. change, and if I should try to farm Gruul's since we do not kill him on a weekly basis anymore.
That being said, I've been wondering if Haste is something that has increased in usefulness for a 2h warrior with the W.F. change, and if I should try to farm Gruul's since we do not kill him on a weekly basis anymore.
We have truly awful luck on trinkets. 1 DST in 20+ Gruul kills. 1 Tsunami. 0 Solarians. 0 Warp Spring.
I still would not use the BT faction trinket and honestly I cant imagine anyone else in our guild using it, for DPS or tanking.
I still would not use the BT faction trinket and honestly I cant imagine anyone else in our guild using it, for DPS or tanking.
Edited onPatch 2.1.3
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Originally Posted by suicuique
I disagree with point (4) (labeled wrongly as a second (3) ) of yours.
The flat heroic strike bonus favours fast weapons. The lessened miss chance, non glancing and impale work on fast weapons the same as they do on slow weapons, as they effectively modify your DPS value and do not favour fast or slow weapons. The point you make though and which I want to emphasize again: heroic striking with a slow weapon applies the main benefits (non glancing, less "miss") to a greater portion of your total damage (see it as a granularity thing). Keep in mind that in exptreme cases (think Loatheb pre BC) Heroic striking with a fast weapon will produce way more damage than a slow weapon. At a heavy cost though: it produces a ton more aggro. If rage and aggro is an issue, heroic striking with a slow weapon is better. I agree there. EDIT: On second thought, I'm not so sure that heroic striking with a slow weapon is prefered in low rage situations. "Slow" means the benefits apply to a greater portion of your damage, but it also does amplify the "hidden" rage cost of a Heroic strike, as more white damage is lost from generating rage. Would that not leave only the "less aggro" as a benefit of using slow weapons for a heroic strike? I'm a little confused for now. |
The opportunity cost of your heroic strike swing is proportionally the same for a slow or a fast weapon because the hidden benefits it provides (+chance to hit, impale, no glancing) are also proportional to weapon speed.
The hidden benefits from heroic strike with a 1.5 speed weapon cause 73% more threat and cost 73% more rage than with a 2.6 speed weapon. Without flurry, if 50% of your swings in a minute were heroic strikes, it would cost 132 rage and 2420 threat for a 2.6 weapon (11 swings). It would cost 240 rage and 4400 threat for a 1.5 weapon (20 swings).
The net difference is that the dagger produces 1872 more base damage for 1980 threat and 108 rage.
The only benefit of using heroic strike with a faster weapon is to gain the +damage bonus quickly if you have no threat or rage concerns. An earlier poster is correct--the only encounter in the game where this is the case is probably Loatheb.
Last edited by Natural : 08/17/07 at 10:53 AM.
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Originally Posted by Natural
I will edit my above post to clarify point #4. In terms of pure DPS, heroic strike can obviously be used faster with faster weapons. I was focusing my list on damage-per-rage and damage-per-threat.
The opportunity cost of your heroic strike swing is proportionally the same for a slow or a fast weapon because the hidden benefits it provides (+chance to hit, impale, no glancing) are also proportional to weapon speed. The hidden benefits from heroic strike with a 1.5 speed weapon cause 73% more threat and cost 73% more rage than with a 2.6 speed weapon. Without flurry, if 50% of your swings in a minute were heroic strikes, it would cost 132 rage and 2420 threat for a 2.6 weapon (11 swings). It would cost 240 rage and 4400 threat for a 1.5 weapon (20 swings). The net difference is that the dagger produces 1872 more base damage for 1980 threat and 108 rage. The only benefit of using heroic strike with a faster weapon is to gain the +damage bonus quickly if you have no threat or rage concerns. An earlier poster is correct--the only encounter in the game where this is the case is probably Loatheb. |
Zero-Armor
2.6 - 819 Damage: 819 / 73 + 2.6 * 1.75 = 11 + 4.5 = 15.5
1.5 - 472.5 Damage: 472.5 / 73 + 1.5 * 1.75 = 6.5 + 2.5 = 9
10% Armor Reduction
2.6 - 737 Damage: 737 / 73 + 2.6 * 1.75 = 10 + 4.5 = 14.5
1.5 - 425 Damage: 425 / 73 + 1.5 * 1.75 = 6 + 2.5 = 8.5
20% Armor Reduction
2.6 - 655 Damage: 655 / 73 + 2.6 * 1.75 = 9 + 4.5 = 13.5
1.5 - 378 Damage: 378 / 73 + 1.5 * 1.75 = 5 + 1.5 = 6.5
So to rerun your numbers in the same scenario, the 2.6 speed weapon loses 11 * 13.5 additional rage and the 1.5 speed weapon loses 20 * 6.5 additional rage.
This puts it at 280 rage and 2420 threat for a 2.6 speed weapon at 11 swings, and 370 rage and 4400 threat for a 1.5 speed weapon. While I believe you were trying to use the same % of swings so as to avoid calculating Impale and the +hit modifier, it is interesting to see the results when you compare them for the same Rage cost (since, presumably, your overall rage generation is much the same no matter what). At 15 swings, the 1.5 speed weapon costs 180 + 97.5 = 277.5 Rage, and will generate 2940 bonus threat.
Don't get me wrong - using a quicker weapon is undeniably worse in this situation, since for the same rage cost you're generating around 21% more threat and receiving a considerably smaller +hit/Impale bonus, but it is a little bit closer than the situation you described.
Edited onPatch 2.1.3
Nvm, RPzip covered it.
Except for the same amount of Heroic Strikes (15), the 2.6 speed weapon ends up losing an additional 105 rage doesn't it?
Except for the same amount of Heroic Strikes (15), the 2.6 speed weapon ends up losing an additional 105 rage doesn't it?
Last edited by Graul : 08/17/07 at 12:25 PM.
Edited onPatch 2.1.3
Unless there is some error in your calculations, you are implying that a 2.6 speed weapon generates more rage than a 1.5 speed weapon.
2.6 speed: 11.53*13.5 = 155.6 rage generated. (To be precise, 11.53 swings in 30 seconds)
1.5 speed: 20*6.5 = 130 rage generated
What about critical strikes? What about glancing blows? I believe this is an oversimplification of the opportunity cost. If you assume that both weapon speeds generate the same rage over time, then 30 seconds of heroic strike should have an equal opportunity cost for both weapons.
I have not spent much time analyzing the rage formula but my assumption was that it was independent of weapon speed. Please correct me if I'm wrong.
2.6 speed: 11.53*13.5 = 155.6 rage generated. (To be precise, 11.53 swings in 30 seconds)
1.5 speed: 20*6.5 = 130 rage generated
What about critical strikes? What about glancing blows? I believe this is an oversimplification of the opportunity cost. If you assume that both weapon speeds generate the same rage over time, then 30 seconds of heroic strike should have an equal opportunity cost for both weapons.
I have not spent much time analyzing the rage formula but my assumption was that it was independent of weapon speed. Please correct me if I'm wrong.
Last edited by Natural : 08/17/07 at 12:50 PM.
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Unless there is some error in your calculations, you are implying that a 2.6 speed weapon generates more rage than a 1.5 speed weapon. 2.6 speed: 11.53*13.5 = 155.6 rage generated. (To be precise, 11.53 swings in 30 seconds) 1.5 speed: 20*6.5 = 130 rage generated |
Worldofraids forums :: Haste rating hidden changes on PTR
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Haste Rating (melee) Live: 10.5 haste rating for 1% haste PTR: 15.7 haste rating for 1% haste |
Thats just retarded. After the WF nerf Im struggling for top 5 dps spot, now with the haste nerf I'd be lucky to stay in the top 10.
Looks like warlocks got what they wanted yet again.
Looks like warlocks got what they wanted yet again.
It's not the same, but it's similar to when they nerfed proc's that would proc themselves. A large part of that was due to TF damage.
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Originally Posted by Calgar
Everyone is saying "Dragonstrike is amazing!"...seems like a recent development. How much better does the haste proc make it then say, the S2 merciless One-handed axe? Or the T3 axe smith one-hander?
I think i even saw someone say it's the best 1 hander until illidan's legendaries? |
I have the T2 axe at the moment, and I'm one vortex away from T3: I collected all the mats to switch over to [Dragonstrike] though (I have a DST). Do I still bother, or just go for the stats on [Wicked Edge of the Planes] ?
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Originally Posted by Boozie
With the haste nerf incoming, does this statement still stand ?
I have the T2 axe at the moment, and I'm one vortex away from T3: I collected all the mats to switch over to [Dragonstrike] though (I have a DST). Do I still bother, or just go for the stats on [Wicked Edge of the Planes] ? |
from what i understand dragonstrike is the single best 1 hander in game for a warrior, not sure about the legendaries. that is after the haste nerf.
The melee haste nerf has been confirmed as intentional and not a bug here. The relevant section:
# Haste: Haste has been rebalanced. It has returned to the ratios from the launch of Burning Crusade. Melee attacks and spell casts will now benefit at identical rates from haste. This change results in a reduction in the benefit of haste for melee attacks and an increase in the benefit for spellcasters.
# Haste: Haste has been rebalanced. It has returned to the ratios from the launch of Burning Crusade. Melee attacks and spell casts will now benefit at identical rates from haste. This change results in a reduction in the benefit of haste for melee attacks and an increase in the benefit for spellcasters.
I just had a quick question regarding the next OH upgrade as a fury warrior. Currently I am using the wicked edge of the planes as my MH and merciless gladiators hacker OH. My guild is working through SSC and TK at the moment, so i was curious to know the next best upgrade for my OH
[Swiftsteel Bludgeon] - Black Temple trash once you get in there.
[Tracker's Blade] will also be a great offhand after the haste nerf.
I wonder which of the above is the better offhand for a Human. It'll be roughly 1% crit versus 1.7% haste and 3% offhand hit.
So with haste for melee being nerfed I cant see the dragonstrike been top dog anymore. You are better off getting a t3 axe for the stats. Not sure if its worth stacking to much static haste gear either. DST I think is still worth it even though you lose 10% from it.
so there is no better OH weapon then the merciless gladiators hacker in TK or SSC??
All weapons in TK/SSC except for Vashj/Kael Loot have a much lower item value (128 IIRC) which leads to a 93,x DPS weapon. The stats might not be optimal, but thats about all.
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Originally Posted by ckaparos
So with haste for melee being nerfed I cant see the dragonstrike been top dog anymore. You are better off getting a t3 axe for the stats. Not sure if its worth stacking to much static haste gear either. DST I think is still worth it even though you lose 10% from it.
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Anyone else compare haste to +hit after the yellow hit cap?
15.7 haste: 1% more swings in a give period of time
15.8 hit: 1% more hits
Given the time period of 100 swings, 35% crit, 24% glancing, 5.6% dodge, 15% miss, rest hit.
Base Stats:
100 Swings, 35 crits, 24 glancing at 75% damage, 5.6 dodges, 15 misses, 20.4 hits
Total weapon damage: 108.4x
+10% Hit
100 swings, 35 crits, 24 glancing at 75% damage, 5.6 dodges, 5 misses, 30.4 hits
Total Weapon Damage: 118.4
+10% Haste
110 swings, 38.5 crits, 26.4 glancing at 75% damage, 6.16 dodges, 16.5 misses, 22.44 hits
Total Weapon Damage: 119.24
Some of my values might be a little off, but it's a comparable rate of return with haste being slightly more preferrable and both only modify white damage. An additional point is that you can cap hit and not haste. When looking at passive haste items, I keep this in mind for comparison as I have a general idea how much I value +hit.
Additionally, given the amount of rage that is attainable in a boss encounter, has anyone done any in depth comparison to using an imp OP/TM build (12/46/3) that would let you fill out the fury tree a couple points more and stance dance overpower (for significant rage usage) to cycle in a third instant attack without threat modifier? Give ~5% dodge, you get dodges fairly regularly and being able to OP every 20 seconds would not be unusual. I've been playing around with the warrior dps spread sheet and while it is not as high in pure DPS as an impale build, the threat savings from overpowering instead of HSing are significant. Deep wounds doesn't do much when DWing as an offhand crit tic isn't very powerful and you frequently have it refreshed before it tics. Hmmm. I need to get some prot warriors back active in my guild so I can go back to DPS.
15.7 haste: 1% more swings in a give period of time
15.8 hit: 1% more hits
Given the time period of 100 swings, 35% crit, 24% glancing, 5.6% dodge, 15% miss, rest hit.
Base Stats:
100 Swings, 35 crits, 24 glancing at 75% damage, 5.6 dodges, 15 misses, 20.4 hits
Total weapon damage: 108.4x
+10% Hit
100 swings, 35 crits, 24 glancing at 75% damage, 5.6 dodges, 5 misses, 30.4 hits
Total Weapon Damage: 118.4
+10% Haste
110 swings, 38.5 crits, 26.4 glancing at 75% damage, 6.16 dodges, 16.5 misses, 22.44 hits
Total Weapon Damage: 119.24
Some of my values might be a little off, but it's a comparable rate of return with haste being slightly more preferrable and both only modify white damage. An additional point is that you can cap hit and not haste. When looking at passive haste items, I keep this in mind for comparison as I have a general idea how much I value +hit.
Additionally, given the amount of rage that is attainable in a boss encounter, has anyone done any in depth comparison to using an imp OP/TM build (12/46/3) that would let you fill out the fury tree a couple points more and stance dance overpower (for significant rage usage) to cycle in a third instant attack without threat modifier? Give ~5% dodge, you get dodges fairly regularly and being able to OP every 20 seconds would not be unusual. I've been playing around with the warrior dps spread sheet and while it is not as high in pure DPS as an impale build, the threat savings from overpowering instead of HSing are significant. Deep wounds doesn't do much when DWing as an offhand crit tic isn't very powerful and you frequently have it refreshed before it tics. Hmmm. I need to get some prot warriors back active in my guild so I can go back to DPS.
Kind of a change of direction here....but this has been bugging me for the last couple of weeks. Hopefully my rambling doesn't sound too whiny.
Reading through a couple of posts from other threads, and the results of the Wind fury, and soon to follow haste and mace spec nerf, I've started to question what Blizzard's intentions are for a "DPS" warrior. Most of the nerfs were to bring T6, dual legendary wielding, rogues in line with caster DPS, but the side effect was a rather severe hit to fury and a brutal nerf to Arms/MS damage in a raid setting.
The quote from earlier was something to the following effect. "Rogues, Mages and warlocks do a lot of DPS because that's all they can do. DPS Warriors have less DPS because blizzard thinks they can tank (with a respec, and change of gear)....". Then it went on to talk about how, because hybrids could do more, they did each job less then optimally.
Basically, that strikes me as a weak excuse for us not putting out competitive DPS. The last 2 weeks have seen me drop from first place on lurker, and a solid top 5 on every other SSC boss to 5-10 on most bosses. The crowning moment of my DPS career was last night, when our priest class leader decided to bring his alt Warlock (in heroic and 2-3 kz epics) into Gruul and our Void Reaver kill. He beat me on every single boss, and easily kept pace on the trash. It seriously made me question was i was even in the raid if a T4 quality warlock can put out more DPS then a T5+ DPS warrior can...All i brought was a battle shout to the rogues, which could have been handled by our second prot warrior being put in the rogue group.
Even moving into BT in a few month, I don't see a few hundred more AP, hit and crit making up for, or closing the gap on what our top DPS is putting out NOW, let alone when they are T6 geared as well.
And with Dual Wielding Death Knights on the horizon....I'm seeing less and less of a future for a DPS warrior. Are we just supposed to be content with "average" quality dps? Is that our new place? After having tasted the best pre-TBC, and even pre-WF nerf, it's really hard to swallow being second rate.
(Background; we are working on Vash'j, You can look me up on the armory, but short of a DST, Tsunami talisman and T5 DPS pants, I've got just about all the available gear from farmed content)
Reading through a couple of posts from other threads, and the results of the Wind fury, and soon to follow haste and mace spec nerf, I've started to question what Blizzard's intentions are for a "DPS" warrior. Most of the nerfs were to bring T6, dual legendary wielding, rogues in line with caster DPS, but the side effect was a rather severe hit to fury and a brutal nerf to Arms/MS damage in a raid setting.
The quote from earlier was something to the following effect. "Rogues, Mages and warlocks do a lot of DPS because that's all they can do. DPS Warriors have less DPS because blizzard thinks they can tank (with a respec, and change of gear)....". Then it went on to talk about how, because hybrids could do more, they did each job less then optimally.
Basically, that strikes me as a weak excuse for us not putting out competitive DPS. The last 2 weeks have seen me drop from first place on lurker, and a solid top 5 on every other SSC boss to 5-10 on most bosses. The crowning moment of my DPS career was last night, when our priest class leader decided to bring his alt Warlock (in heroic and 2-3 kz epics) into Gruul and our Void Reaver kill. He beat me on every single boss, and easily kept pace on the trash. It seriously made me question was i was even in the raid if a T4 quality warlock can put out more DPS then a T5+ DPS warrior can...All i brought was a battle shout to the rogues, which could have been handled by our second prot warrior being put in the rogue group.
Even moving into BT in a few month, I don't see a few hundred more AP, hit and crit making up for, or closing the gap on what our top DPS is putting out NOW, let alone when they are T6 geared as well.
And with Dual Wielding Death Knights on the horizon....I'm seeing less and less of a future for a DPS warrior. Are we just supposed to be content with "average" quality dps? Is that our new place? After having tasted the best pre-TBC, and even pre-WF nerf, it's really hard to swallow being second rate.
(Background; we are working on Vash'j, You can look me up on the armory, but short of a DST, Tsunami talisman and T5 DPS pants, I've got just about all the available gear from farmed content)
Edited onPatch 2.1.3
I can't see your armory, Calgar. Could you detail your stats, please, and possibly the group you find yourself in in a raid? Do you have a Shaman in your group? That would be of the greatest benefit.
Until two weeks ago I was 33/28 MS myself. The Windfury change was very drastic to the feel of my particular spec (which focussed on Slam). I ended up DW fury and find that the WF change doesn't seem too harsh in that regard. I was just crafting and stacking haste when news of that change hit as well; now I wear 4/5 Tier 5 + armorsmithing BP and find that it works better for me than the haste I had been wearing, simply because my crit is so much better and my flurry/rampage uptime more consistent.
Until two weeks ago I was 33/28 MS myself. The Windfury change was very drastic to the feel of my particular spec (which focussed on Slam). I ended up DW fury and find that the WF change doesn't seem too harsh in that regard. I was just crafting and stacking haste when news of that change hit as well; now I wear 4/5 Tier 5 + armorsmithing BP and find that it works better for me than the haste I had been wearing, simply because my crit is so much better and my flurry/rampage uptime more consistent.
Last edited by Charsi : 08/24/07 at 3:46 PM.
Edited onPatch 2.1.3
You got out dpsed by a caster on a void reaver kill? I can see out damaged because you pulled aggro and got swatted, but our melee dps owns that fight. BS to a rogue is over a 100 DPS boost and one of the strongest buffs they can get. Rogues, on the other hand, provide no buffs to anyone else aside from hemorrhage which no one specs.
The WF nerf was a huge 2hand DPS warrior nerf as the ratio of their specials to normal white hits is much higher than a DW class like a DW war or rogue. An arms specced warrior is intended for PVP and not DPS so having 2 hand nerfed so hard is not surprising.
If it wasn't for combat potency, warriors would outscale rogues. In a 24 second window, we get 7 base instants to their 6. We passively achieve a 75%+ haste up time. We gain 2 ap per str while they gain 1 ap per agil and some crit. If a DPS warrior can manage 90% of a rogues DPS, he is well worth bringing. Tack on the damage gained by the group because of BS and he is a net gain. Any tanking warrior that is going to be taking some big hits is usually put in a tanking buffs oriented group. If a prot warrior is put in the rogue group because he isn't tanking, he would obviously be much more productive as DPS specced.
What you should do is get as many feral tanks as you can find so you can rage dump HS more!
Edit: I went to check out your gear but you were in tank gear with 2 weapons on.
The WF nerf was a huge 2hand DPS warrior nerf as the ratio of their specials to normal white hits is much higher than a DW class like a DW war or rogue. An arms specced warrior is intended for PVP and not DPS so having 2 hand nerfed so hard is not surprising.
If it wasn't for combat potency, warriors would outscale rogues. In a 24 second window, we get 7 base instants to their 6. We passively achieve a 75%+ haste up time. We gain 2 ap per str while they gain 1 ap per agil and some crit. If a DPS warrior can manage 90% of a rogues DPS, he is well worth bringing. Tack on the damage gained by the group because of BS and he is a net gain. Any tanking warrior that is going to be taking some big hits is usually put in a tanking buffs oriented group. If a prot warrior is put in the rogue group because he isn't tanking, he would obviously be much more productive as DPS specced.
What you should do is get as many feral tanks as you can find so you can rage dump HS more!
Edit: I went to check out your gear but you were in tank gear with 2 weapons on.
Last edited by Grymm : 08/24/07 at 4:59 PM.
Edited onPatch 2.1.3
Calgar,
Things may seem poor now but they definitely improve with gear. I expect the haste nerf to drop my damage a good deal, but the same will be true for rogues and some hunters who are also on the top of the charts.
Have a look at some of our WWS logs this week. Thyrfing is a 33/28 warrior who doesn't usually get the same buffs (LOTP, Enhancement shaman v. normal shaman) but usually does a great job.
Partial BT Clear: Wow Web Stats
Hyjal Clear:Wow Web Stats
As you can see--there's still hope but it definitely requires great gear.
Things may seem poor now but they definitely improve with gear. I expect the haste nerf to drop my damage a good deal, but the same will be true for rogues and some hunters who are also on the top of the charts.
Have a look at some of our WWS logs this week. Thyrfing is a 33/28 warrior who doesn't usually get the same buffs (LOTP, Enhancement shaman v. normal shaman) but usually does a great job.
Partial BT Clear: Wow Web Stats
Hyjal Clear:Wow Web Stats
As you can see--there's still hope but it definitely requires great gear.
Last edited by Natural : 08/24/07 at 5:03 PM.
natural, youre not showing up on armory for some reason. What kind of gear are you using? I'd like to compare our setups and see what im doing wrong, as youre doing a lot more dps than me.
|
Originally Posted by madrussian
natural, youre not showing up on armory for some reason. What kind of gear are you using? I'd like to compare our setups and see what im doing wrong, as youre doing a lot more dps than me.
|
Armory is working for me: The Armory
Are you avoiding armor penetration or has that just not been whats dropping. I see you're rocking some haste and a lot of base +hit (no hit gems, all gear stats).
Does imp BS stack with Sapphire? When you go back to fury, you must run with some crazy AP numbers. I used to watch my AP on Gruul kills just to see how high I could get it with procs/buffs. It was more impressive at the time.
Does imp BS stack with Sapphire? When you go back to fury, you must run with some crazy AP numbers. I used to watch my AP on Gruul kills just to see how high I could get it with procs/buffs. It was more impressive at the time.
Edited onPatch 2.1.3
|
Originally Posted by Grymm
Are you avoiding armor penetration or has that just not been whats dropping. I see you're rocking some haste and a lot of base +hit (no hit gems, all gear stats).
Does imp BS stack with Sapphire? When you go back to fury, you must run with some crazy AP numbers. I used to watch my AP on Gruul kills just to see how high I could get it with procs/buffs. It was more impressive at the time. |
Last edited by Natural : 08/24/07 at 6:53 PM.
Natural, do you have a warrior pick up Imp Demo?
Also, @Madrussian: DW Spec is worth it. Drop Imp Berserker Rage, Imp Intercept, and 1 from Imp WW.
Also, @Madrussian: DW Spec is worth it. Drop Imp Berserker Rage, Imp Intercept, and 1 from Imp WW.
Yeah we try to have a warrior with imp demo shout. Prior to the WF nerf I asked our 33 28 warrior to handle this, because I believed that unbridled wrath scaled better with dual wielding and haste, so the other warrior had a lower opportunity cost. After the WF nerf I'm starting to take responsibility for it because he is more rage starved than before.
|
Originally Posted by Natural
The gear is there but the spec is not correct. I was protection to tank the Flames of Azzinoth for P2 Illidan last night. My crit is low after picking up haste gear. I'm waiting for the boots to drop off of EoS.
Armory is working for me: The Armory |
Im raiding atm and with normal raid buffs im sitting at 2600 AP pre battle shout, 32% crit with 1 sharp stone and 288 hit rating. I use BT/WW on cooldown and spam heroic strike like its none of my business, also haste pots/abacus on cooldown, thats netted me ~1350 dps on gorefiend, resto shaman windfury in my group too. Any ideas/clues?
|
Originally Posted by madrussian
Wow, our gear is very similar, except you have a tad more haste than me over my crit.But you do ~150 dps more than me, I cant quite understand how.
Im raiding atm and with normal raid buffs im sitting at 2600 AP pre battle shout, 32% crit with 1 sharp stone and 288 hit rating. I use BT/WW on cooldown and spam heroic strike like its none of my business, also haste pots/abacus on cooldown, thats netted me ~1350 dps on gorefiend, resto shaman windfury in my group too. Any ideas/clues? |
Ok, I just looked at your WWS parse and compared it to our gorefiend kill just a few minutes ago. Your highest BT is ~3600 mine waas 2980. How high does your AP get with bs/rampage? I'm normally hovering ~3500 ap depending on procs etc. Now heres the kicker, with [Rising Tide] your highest heroic strike was 2500, mine was 2250, but im using [Dragonstrike]. Seems like you have just a lot more AP than me when raid buffed.
I'll post the WWS after raid when it gets uploaded.
I'll post the WWS after raid when it gets uploaded.
|
Originally Posted by Natural
My Teron DPS for the past few weeks: 1572, 1440 (ghosted, no execute), 1414, 1433. It has some variance which may account for some of it. I also have an enhancement shaman instead of a resto shaman. I believe this week's damage has legitimately increased after I picked up a DST.
|
|
Originally Posted by Natural
Improved BS does stack with Sapphire, so the sapphire ends up adding 87.5 AP to your shout. I have focused on maintaining crit/hit/ap while building haste since I believe it stacks more effectively. Most of the armor penetration gear (T6, and a couple random pieces) has gone to the other warriors who do not dual wield.
|
What I have been seeing across the board following many of the high dps kills on WWS. Is the lack of consistency of the 2H DPS. Some fights People are sitting at 1400 (Post WF change) other times with a very similar raid make up the next week, that person is 100-150 dps off. While Parsing their personal wws logs you will notice a severe lack of abilities being used (Rage starvation).
Is it getting to the point that 2h warrior builds will need to start stacking haste as well, just to ensure steady rage generation? So instead of worrying about Crit/Hit you now need to worry about Haste as well. And if so, what is the cut off point swing wise, A 3.7 becomes something like a 2.9 with flurry, on top of that would you want to push further, and mess up the Slam/instant rotation most are using now?
Any ideas or opinions would be welcomed, and apologies in advance for an errors.
|
Originally Posted by Grymm
The WF nerf was a huge 2hand DPS warrior nerf as the ratio of their specials to normal white hits is much higher than a DW class like a DW war or rogue. An arms specced warrior is intended for PVP and not DPS so having 2 hand nerfed so hard is not surprising.
|
|
Originally Posted by Darkrenown
Surely Blood Frenzy was intended for raiding?
|
Then again it might just be blizzards idea of making all specs viable in one way or the other.
|
Originally Posted by Eledorian
It seems to be intended for raiding, but the placement in whats generally taken as the warriors pvp tree seems to be out of place.
Then again it might just be blizzards idea of making all specs viable in one way or the other. |
My 2 cents: MS warriors were dream classes pre-WF nerf, capable of being top notch in PvE and PvP with just one spec. We were one of the only classes gifted in this regard. Holy paladins were also gifted in this regard, and see what the new patch is bringing for (or taking from) them? The nerf was inevitable. I wouldn't doubt more nerfs to come shortly.
Ive got a question that has been bugging me
What is the better sword and why.
For fury pve dps Talon of Azshara or s2 mh Merciless Gladiator's Slicer.
Currently have the s2 mh but is the talon going to be an upgrade or downgrade?
What is the better sword and why.
For fury pve dps Talon of Azshara or s2 mh Merciless Gladiator's Slicer.
Currently have the s2 mh but is the talon going to be an upgrade or downgrade?
I've read in the Rogue spreadsheet thread that the Talon is better for them due to the speed, but it doesn't really seem like a big upgrade over the S2 sword for a Warrior. Both have stats that are really not contributing anything at all to DPS. The Talon has a higher hit rating and AP but less crit rating and four less physical damage. I really can't tell what Blizzard was thinking when they added the AC to the Talon. Did they expect it to be used as a weapon for Devastate? If they had converted the AC into raw damage then it would certainly be an upgrade. If your guild has other Rogues or Warriors that have an inferior MH weapon, or if you use a DKP system, it would probably be better to just pass on it.
I tend to agree that you are safe to wait for a BT/Hyjal weapon. Nothing about Talon (other than its old school utb look) makes it more desirable than what you already have
i thought that was the case thanks for the confirmation.
Edited onPatch 2.1.3
Hi all, first time poster, long time lurker here.
Been wondering for a while now how significant the healing effect of Bloodthirst is for my threat.
I dont know the exact threat mechanics of healing and thus was wondering if any of you could fill me in, because if it is significant I was thinking of a /cast BT /cancelaura BT macro.
Been wondering for a while now how significant the healing effect of Bloodthirst is for my threat.
I dont know the exact threat mechanics of healing and thus was wondering if any of you could fill me in, because if it is significant I was thinking of a /cast BT /cancelaura BT macro.
Last edited by Flaps : 08/27/07 at 3:11 AM.
Negligible.
My understanding is that 1 point of healing is 0.5 point of threat. However overhealing counts for zero, so check out a parse of extended combat, count your effective healing done by Bloodthirst and then halve that to find an approximate value of the raw threat it generates. I am unsure on how BoSalv and other threat multipliers apply but of course they are all multplicative now; eg 1 heal = 0.35 threat with Salv (1 x 0.5 x 0.7 = 0.35).
The healing done by BT is assigned back to you, the combat log does list it as "Your Bloodthirst heals you for xxx".
I believe that is correct.
My understanding is that 1 point of healing is 0.5 point of threat. However overhealing counts for zero, so check out a parse of extended combat, count your effective healing done by Bloodthirst and then halve that to find an approximate value of the raw threat it generates. I am unsure on how BoSalv and other threat multipliers apply but of course they are all multplicative now; eg 1 heal = 0.35 threat with Salv (1 x 0.5 x 0.7 = 0.35).
The healing done by BT is assigned back to you, the combat log does list it as "Your Bloodthirst heals you for xxx".
I believe that is correct.
I got to spec back to DPS last night after a long stint as prot. It's just as sweet as I remembered it. My gear is a bit outdated (karazhan/Gruul/Mag lvl) but I was able to put up some top 10 numbers in SSC. On trash, I favored the feral druid's targets as he generates high aggro and likes to move away from the sheep for some swipe spam which lets me cleave dump, but not putting up my own sunders killed my DPS. I'll have to do that next time or follow the focus more. I also had a knack for aggroing secondary tank targets with WW/Cleave. That lead to some deaths. All in all, I think I'll be able to get into the top 6 dps with gear fairly regularly provided I'm diligent with my 5 min salves.
Edited onPatch 2.1.3
Cleave is more threat per damage than HS; it is also more rage per damage. HS is much more threat/rage efficient, just know when to back out and not overaggro.
Edit: Unless, of course, you're actually hitting two targets with your cleave.
Edit: Unless, of course, you're actually hitting two targets with your cleave.
Last edited by Zalein : 08/28/07 at 4:34 AM. Reason: Further clarification
Edited onPatch 2.1.3
You got out dpsed by a caster on a void reaver kill? I can see out damaged because you pulled aggro and got swatted, but our melee dps owns that fight. BS to a rogue is over a 100 DPS boost and one of the strongest buffs they can get. Rogues, on the other hand, provide no buffs to anyone else aside from hemorrhage which no one specs.
The WF nerf was a huge 2hand DPS warrior nerf as the ratio of their specials to normal white hits is much higher than a DW class like a DW war or rogue. An arms specced warrior is intended for PVP and not DPS so having 2 hand nerfed so hard is not surprising.
If it wasn't for combat potency, warriors would outscale rogues. In a 24 second window, we get 7 base instants to their 6. We passively achieve a 75%+ haste up time. We gain 2 ap per str while they gain 1 ap per agil and some crit. If a DPS warrior can manage 90% of a rogues DPS, he is well worth bringing. Tack on the damage gained by the group because of BS and he is a net gain. Any tanking warrior that is going to be taking some big hits is usually put in a tanking buffs oriented group. If a prot warrior is put in the rogue group because he isn't tanking, he would obviously be much more productive as DPS specced.
What you should do is get as many feral tanks as you can find so you can rage dump HS more!
Edit: I went to check out your gear but you were in tank gear with 2 weapons on.
The WF nerf was a huge 2hand DPS warrior nerf as the ratio of their specials to normal white hits is much higher than a DW class like a DW war or rogue. An arms specced warrior is intended for PVP and not DPS so having 2 hand nerfed so hard is not surprising.
If it wasn't for combat potency, warriors would outscale rogues. In a 24 second window, we get 7 base instants to their 6. We passively achieve a 75%+ haste up time. We gain 2 ap per str while they gain 1 ap per agil and some crit. If a DPS warrior can manage 90% of a rogues DPS, he is well worth bringing. Tack on the damage gained by the group because of BS and he is a net gain. Any tanking warrior that is going to be taking some big hits is usually put in a tanking buffs oriented group. If a prot warrior is put in the rogue group because he isn't tanking, he would obviously be much more productive as DPS specced.
What you should do is get as many feral tanks as you can find so you can rage dump HS more!
Edit: I went to check out your gear but you were in tank gear with 2 weapons on.
Last edited by Grymm : 08/24/07 at 4:59 PM.
Edited onPatch 2.1.3
Calgar,
Things may seem poor now but they definitely improve with gear. I expect the haste nerf to drop my damage a good deal, but the same will be true for rogues and some hunters who are also on the top of the charts.
Have a look at some of our WWS logs this week. Thyrfing is a 33/28 warrior who doesn't usually get the same buffs (LOTP, Enhancement shaman v. normal shaman) but usually does a great job.
Partial BT Clear: Wow Web Stats
Hyjal Clear:Wow Web Stats
As you can see--there's still hope but it definitely requires great gear.
Things may seem poor now but they definitely improve with gear. I expect the haste nerf to drop my damage a good deal, but the same will be true for rogues and some hunters who are also on the top of the charts.
Have a look at some of our WWS logs this week. Thyrfing is a 33/28 warrior who doesn't usually get the same buffs (LOTP, Enhancement shaman v. normal shaman) but usually does a great job.
Partial BT Clear: Wow Web Stats
Hyjal Clear:Wow Web Stats
As you can see--there's still hope but it definitely requires great gear.
Last edited by Natural : 08/24/07 at 5:03 PM.
natural, youre not showing up on armory for some reason. What kind of gear are you using? I'd like to compare our setups and see what im doing wrong, as youre doing a lot more dps than me.
|
Originally Posted by madrussian
natural, youre not showing up on armory for some reason. What kind of gear are you using? I'd like to compare our setups and see what im doing wrong, as youre doing a lot more dps than me.
|
Armory is working for me: The Armory
Are you avoiding armor penetration or has that just not been whats dropping. I see you're rocking some haste and a lot of base +hit (no hit gems, all gear stats).
Does imp BS stack with Sapphire? When you go back to fury, you must run with some crazy AP numbers. I used to watch my AP on Gruul kills just to see how high I could get it with procs/buffs. It was more impressive at the time.
Does imp BS stack with Sapphire? When you go back to fury, you must run with some crazy AP numbers. I used to watch my AP on Gruul kills just to see how high I could get it with procs/buffs. It was more impressive at the time.
Edited onPatch 2.1.3
|
Originally Posted by Grymm
Are you avoiding armor penetration or has that just not been whats dropping. I see you're rocking some haste and a lot of base +hit (no hit gems, all gear stats).
Does imp BS stack with Sapphire? When you go back to fury, you must run with some crazy AP numbers. I used to watch my AP on Gruul kills just to see how high I could get it with procs/buffs. It was more impressive at the time. |
Last edited by Natural : 08/24/07 at 6:53 PM.
Natural, do you have a warrior pick up Imp Demo?
Also, @Madrussian: DW Spec is worth it. Drop Imp Berserker Rage, Imp Intercept, and 1 from Imp WW.
Also, @Madrussian: DW Spec is worth it. Drop Imp Berserker Rage, Imp Intercept, and 1 from Imp WW.
Yeah we try to have a warrior with imp demo shout. Prior to the WF nerf I asked our 33 28 warrior to handle this, because I believed that unbridled wrath scaled better with dual wielding and haste, so the other warrior had a lower opportunity cost. After the WF nerf I'm starting to take responsibility for it because he is more rage starved than before.
|
Originally Posted by Natural
The gear is there but the spec is not correct. I was protection to tank the Flames of Azzinoth for P2 Illidan last night. My crit is low after picking up haste gear. I'm waiting for the boots to drop off of EoS.
Armory is working for me: The Armory |
Im raiding atm and with normal raid buffs im sitting at 2600 AP pre battle shout, 32% crit with 1 sharp stone and 288 hit rating. I use BT/WW on cooldown and spam heroic strike like its none of my business, also haste pots/abacus on cooldown, thats netted me ~1350 dps on gorefiend, resto shaman windfury in my group too. Any ideas/clues?
|
Originally Posted by madrussian
Wow, our gear is very similar, except you have a tad more haste than me over my crit.But you do ~150 dps more than me, I cant quite understand how.
Im raiding atm and with normal raid buffs im sitting at 2600 AP pre battle shout, 32% crit with 1 sharp stone and 288 hit rating. I use BT/WW on cooldown and spam heroic strike like its none of my business, also haste pots/abacus on cooldown, thats netted me ~1350 dps on gorefiend, resto shaman windfury in my group too. Any ideas/clues? |
Ok, I just looked at your WWS parse and compared it to our gorefiend kill just a few minutes ago. Your highest BT is ~3600 mine waas 2980. How high does your AP get with bs/rampage? I'm normally hovering ~3500 ap depending on procs etc. Now heres the kicker, with [Rising Tide] your highest heroic strike was 2500, mine was 2250, but im using [Dragonstrike]. Seems like you have just a lot more AP than me when raid buffed.
I'll post the WWS after raid when it gets uploaded.
I'll post the WWS after raid when it gets uploaded.
|
Originally Posted by Natural
My Teron DPS for the past few weeks: 1572, 1440 (ghosted, no execute), 1414, 1433. It has some variance which may account for some of it. I also have an enhancement shaman instead of a resto shaman. I believe this week's damage has legitimately increased after I picked up a DST.
|
|
Originally Posted by Natural
Improved BS does stack with Sapphire, so the sapphire ends up adding 87.5 AP to your shout. I have focused on maintaining crit/hit/ap while building haste since I believe it stacks more effectively. Most of the armor penetration gear (T6, and a couple random pieces) has gone to the other warriors who do not dual wield.
|
What I have been seeing across the board following many of the high dps kills on WWS. Is the lack of consistency of the 2H DPS. Some fights People are sitting at 1400 (Post WF change) other times with a very similar raid make up the next week, that person is 100-150 dps off. While Parsing their personal wws logs you will notice a severe lack of abilities being used (Rage starvation).
Is it getting to the point that 2h warrior builds will need to start stacking haste as well, just to ensure steady rage generation? So instead of worrying about Crit/Hit you now need to worry about Haste as well. And if so, what is the cut off point swing wise, A 3.7 becomes something like a 2.9 with flurry, on top of that would you want to push further, and mess up the Slam/instant rotation most are using now?
Any ideas or opinions would be welcomed, and apologies in advance for an errors.
|
Originally Posted by Grymm
The WF nerf was a huge 2hand DPS warrior nerf as the ratio of their specials to normal white hits is much higher than a DW class like a DW war or rogue. An arms specced warrior is intended for PVP and not DPS so having 2 hand nerfed so hard is not surprising.
|
|
Originally Posted by Darkrenown
Surely Blood Frenzy was intended for raiding?
|
Then again it might just be blizzards idea of making all specs viable in one way or the other.
|
Originally Posted by Eledorian
It seems to be intended for raiding, but the placement in whats generally taken as the warriors pvp tree seems to be out of place.
Then again it might just be blizzards idea of making all specs viable in one way or the other. |
My 2 cents: MS warriors were dream classes pre-WF nerf, capable of being top notch in PvE and PvP with just one spec. We were one of the only classes gifted in this regard. Holy paladins were also gifted in this regard, and see what the new patch is bringing for (or taking from) them? The nerf was inevitable. I wouldn't doubt more nerfs to come shortly.
Ive got a question that has been bugging me
What is the better sword and why.
For fury pve dps Talon of Azshara or s2 mh Merciless Gladiator's Slicer.
Currently have the s2 mh but is the talon going to be an upgrade or downgrade?
What is the better sword and why.
For fury pve dps Talon of Azshara or s2 mh Merciless Gladiator's Slicer.
Currently have the s2 mh but is the talon going to be an upgrade or downgrade?
I've read in the Rogue spreadsheet thread that the Talon is better for them due to the speed, but it doesn't really seem like a big upgrade over the S2 sword for a Warrior. Both have stats that are really not contributing anything at all to DPS. The Talon has a higher hit rating and AP but less crit rating and four less physical damage. I really can't tell what Blizzard was thinking when they added the AC to the Talon. Did they expect it to be used as a weapon for Devastate? If they had converted the AC into raw damage then it would certainly be an upgrade. If your guild has other Rogues or Warriors that have an inferior MH weapon, or if you use a DKP system, it would probably be better to just pass on it.
I tend to agree that you are safe to wait for a BT/Hyjal weapon. Nothing about Talon (other than its old school utb look) makes it more desirable than what you already have
i thought that was the case thanks for the confirmation.
Edited onPatch 2.1.3
Hi all, first time poster, long time lurker here.
Been wondering for a while now how significant the healing effect of Bloodthirst is for my threat.
I dont know the exact threat mechanics of healing and thus was wondering if any of you could fill me in, because if it is significant I was thinking of a /cast BT /cancelaura BT macro.
Been wondering for a while now how significant the healing effect of Bloodthirst is for my threat.
I dont know the exact threat mechanics of healing and thus was wondering if any of you could fill me in, because if it is significant I was thinking of a /cast BT /cancelaura BT macro.
Last edited by Flaps : 08/27/07 at 3:11 AM.
Negligible.
My understanding is that 1 point of healing is 0.5 point of threat. However overhealing counts for zero, so check out a parse of extended combat, count your effective healing done by Bloodthirst and then halve that to find an approximate value of the raw threat it generates. I am unsure on how BoSalv and other threat multipliers apply but of course they are all multplicative now; eg 1 heal = 0.35 threat with Salv (1 x 0.5 x 0.7 = 0.35).
The healing done by BT is assigned back to you, the combat log does list it as "Your Bloodthirst heals you for xxx".
I believe that is correct.
My understanding is that 1 point of healing is 0.5 point of threat. However overhealing counts for zero, so check out a parse of extended combat, count your effective healing done by Bloodthirst and then halve that to find an approximate value of the raw threat it generates. I am unsure on how BoSalv and other threat multipliers apply but of course they are all multplicative now; eg 1 heal = 0.35 threat with Salv (1 x 0.5 x 0.7 = 0.35).
The healing done by BT is assigned back to you, the combat log does list it as "Your Bloodthirst heals you for xxx".
I believe that is correct.
I got to spec back to DPS last night after a long stint as prot. It's just as sweet as I remembered it. My gear is a bit outdated (karazhan/Gruul/Mag lvl) but I was able to put up some top 10 numbers in SSC. On trash, I favored the feral druid's targets as he generates high aggro and likes to move away from the sheep for some swipe spam which lets me cleave dump, but not putting up my own sunders killed my DPS. I'll have to do that next time or follow the focus more. I also had a knack for aggroing secondary tank targets with WW/Cleave. That lead to some deaths. All in all, I think I'll be able to get into the top 6 dps with gear fairly regularly provided I'm diligent with my 5 min salves.
Edited onPatch 2.1.3
Cleave is more threat per damage than HS; it is also more rage per damage. HS is much more threat/rage efficient, just know when to back out and not overaggro.
Edit: Unless, of course, you're actually hitting two targets with your cleave.
Edit: Unless, of course, you're actually hitting two targets with your cleave.
Last edited by Zalein : 08/28/07 at 4:34 AM. Reason: Further clarification
PLEASE KEEP IN MIND -- My Guild is only progressed 2/4 TK & 5/6 SSC So please limit the gear references to TK And SSC As those are in the near future, but T6 is a little too far away for me to start comparing now. Thanks!
"Armor Reduction > haste > ap > crit > hit" With this in mind, and knowing very well that I can't do anything about the AR yet..
I'd like some of our other bright minds to help me discuss this, or if i've left out other options that would be good/better for me, please say so here. if I compare two items, and use over. means i'm favoring the one previous, if i'm vs, my mind is undecided and would like some input, feel free to give input with some facts regarding things I'm favoring if its wrong in your eyes too please! Also, things with a * means I already have it, but if there is better, please let me know!
Head = * [Fel-Steel Warhelm] over [Destroyer Battle-Helm]
Neck = * [Pendant of the Perilous]
Shoulders = * [Pauldrons of the Wardancer] over [Destroyer Shoulderblades]
Cloak = * [Cloak of the Pit Stalker] vs [Razor-Scale Battlecloak] vs [Thalassian Wildercloak]
Chest = [Bloodsea Brigand's Vest] vs [Krakken-Heart Breastplate] (Leaning Towards Bloodsea w/ 3x 8 crit rating gems)
Wrist = [Bracers of Eradication]
Gloves = * [Gauntlets of Martial Perfection] over [Destroyer Gauntlets]
Belt = * [Red Belt of Battle]
Legs = * [Merciless Gladiator's Plate Legguards] vs [Destroyer Greaves]
Feet = * [Warboots of Obliteration]
Rings = #1 = [Band of the Ranger-General] #2 = * [Ring of Lethality]
Trinkets = #1 [Tsunami Talisman] #2 [Dragonspine Trophy]
MH = * [Talon of Azshara] vs [Talon of the Phoenix]
OH = * [Merciless Gladiator's Left Ripper]
Rng = [Serpentshrine Shuriken]
Another Trinket I found interesting would like to see how it compares with DPS from DST and the Tsunami Talisman, would be the [Solarian's Sapphire], Assuming the usual group of:
Fury War
Combat Rogue x2
Feral Druid
Enh Shaman
"Armor Reduction > haste > ap > crit > hit" With this in mind, and knowing very well that I can't do anything about the AR yet..
I'd like some of our other bright minds to help me discuss this, or if i've left out other options that would be good/better for me, please say so here. if I compare two items, and use over. means i'm favoring the one previous, if i'm vs, my mind is undecided and would like some input, feel free to give input with some facts regarding things I'm favoring if its wrong in your eyes too please! Also, things with a * means I already have it, but if there is better, please let me know!
Head = * [Fel-Steel Warhelm] over [Destroyer Battle-Helm]
Neck = * [Pendant of the Perilous]
Shoulders = * [Pauldrons of the Wardancer] over [Destroyer Shoulderblades]
Cloak = * [Cloak of the Pit Stalker] vs [Razor-Scale Battlecloak] vs [Thalassian Wildercloak]
Chest = [Bloodsea Brigand's Vest] vs [Krakken-Heart Breastplate] (Leaning Towards Bloodsea w/ 3x 8 crit rating gems)
Wrist = [Bracers of Eradication]
Gloves = * [Gauntlets of Martial Perfection] over [Destroyer Gauntlets]
Belt = * [Red Belt of Battle]
Legs = * [Merciless Gladiator's Plate Legguards] vs [Destroyer Greaves]
Feet = * [Warboots of Obliteration]
Rings = #1 = [Band of the Ranger-General] #2 = * [Ring of Lethality]
Trinkets = #1 [Tsunami Talisman] #2 [Dragonspine Trophy]
MH = * [Talon of Azshara] vs [Talon of the Phoenix]
OH = * [Merciless Gladiator's Left Ripper]
Rng = [Serpentshrine Shuriken]
Another Trinket I found interesting would like to see how it compares with DPS from DST and the Tsunami Talisman, would be the [Solarian's Sapphire], Assuming the usual group of:
Fury War
Combat Rogue x2
Feral Druid
Enh Shaman
Edited onPatch 2.1.3
I agree with most of your choices, although i'd take destroyer pants over mericless for a couple reasons.
Str > Sta IMO.
Socket it with 10 str (I buy my gems from a BT guild on our server for 200g each)
Merciless is just.....nubby. Showing dps gear with PvP epics in it kinda makes you look like a scrub in my opinion.
Also, Talon of the Phoenix is being buffed in 2.2, so it might be better then Azshara.
Just checked your armory....Holy crap @ all your +hit gems, and +hit trinket. I'd STRONGLY suggest Destroyer pants, and socket with the epic gem out of steam vaults (5 str, 4 hit). This is a big boost in AP, and should allow you to switch some of your hit gems to crit/AP.
We have almost identical gear, but i edge you out by about 2% crit (I assume you are in zerk stance anyways) and 180 AP. Although i assume you have a bloodlust brooch instead of a riding crop for DPS :P
Str > Sta IMO.
Socket it with 10 str (I buy my gems from a BT guild on our server for 200g each)
Merciless is just.....nubby. Showing dps gear with PvP epics in it kinda makes you look like a scrub in my opinion.
Also, Talon of the Phoenix is being buffed in 2.2, so it might be better then Azshara.
Just checked your armory....Holy crap @ all your +hit gems, and +hit trinket. I'd STRONGLY suggest Destroyer pants, and socket with the epic gem out of steam vaults (5 str, 4 hit). This is a big boost in AP, and should allow you to switch some of your hit gems to crit/AP.
We have almost identical gear, but i edge you out by about 2% crit (I assume you are in zerk stance anyways) and 180 AP. Although i assume you have a bloodlust brooch instead of a riding crop for DPS :P
Last edited by Calgar : 08/28/07 at 10:55 AM.
Edited onPatch 2.1.3
In my opinion :
Cloak : [Vengeance Wrap] with +8str = 68AP / 23 crit / 2hit, better than those 3 (but zero stamina)
Head : T5 > Felsteel, you have -9 hit and -8 crit, but more strength. With +24AP diamond and [Sovereign Nightseye] you get 42 more AP
Chest : You're right, Bloodsea brigand is much better than krakken, either with 3x +8str gems or 2x +8crit and 4str/6stam for socket bonus
Legs: T5 are better than Arena2, more Str and hit for a little less crit. You can also get [Greaves of the Bloodwarder] on solarian, more Str too but less hit rating.
Rings : ranger general is good, for the 2nd, I think [Ring of Reciprocity] (kazzak) is better than lethality
Ranged: the shuriken is not bad, but vashj's bow got 38 AP and 16 crit rating (post patch) and if you want hit rating arcanite steam-pistol got +19 (and 20 agility)
edit: DST is a realy good trinket, and [Solarian's Sapphire] is a good one too, +70AP on BS, affected by Commanding Presence it's +87.5 AP for your party
Cloak : [Vengeance Wrap] with +8str = 68AP / 23 crit / 2hit, better than those 3 (but zero stamina)
Head : T5 > Felsteel, you have -9 hit and -8 crit, but more strength. With +24AP diamond and [Sovereign Nightseye] you get 42 more AP
Chest : You're right, Bloodsea brigand is much better than krakken, either with 3x +8str gems or 2x +8crit and 4str/6stam for socket bonus
Legs: T5 are better than Arena2, more Str and hit for a little less crit. You can also get [Greaves of the Bloodwarder] on solarian, more Str too but less hit rating.
Rings : ranger general is good, for the 2nd, I think [Ring of Reciprocity] (kazzak) is better than lethality
Ranged: the shuriken is not bad, but vashj's bow got 38 AP and 16 crit rating (post patch) and if you want hit rating arcanite steam-pistol got +19 (and 20 agility)
edit: DST is a realy good trinket, and [Solarian's Sapphire] is a good one too, +70AP on BS, affected by Commanding Presence it's +87.5 AP for your party
Last edited by Muarf : 08/28/07 at 11:40 AM. Reason: typo
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Originally Posted by Zalein
Cleave is more threat per damage than HS; it is also more rage per damage. HS is much more threat/rage efficient, just know when to back out and not overaggro.
Edit: Unless, of course, you're actually hitting two targets with your cleave. |
Calculating the threat/damage by only considering +damage bonus
Heroic strike adds 176 damage for 196 threat. That is 1.1 threat per bonus damage.
Cleave adds 70 damage for 130 bonus threat. That is 1.8 threat per bonus damage.
Consider the other bonuses of heroic strike and cleave
Compared to an autoattack, both Heroic Strike and Cleave:
1) Increase chance to hit because it is a special attack.
2) Increase critical strike damage due to impale
3) Cannot be glanced
4) Add some "bonus damage" (176 for heroic strike and 70 for cleave before mitigation)
Re-calculate the threat/damage if you include the additional bonuses of a special attack
For example, let's say that "removing glancing blows and reducing chance to miss" increases the expected damage of an attack by 200. This is rough number based on my calculations from a WWS log on Anetheron.
This changes your calculation as follows:
Heroic strike adds 176 damage (+200 for hit/glance) for 196 threat. 1.92 damage/threat
Cleave adds 70 damage (+200 for hit/glance) for 130 bonus threat. 2.07 damage/threat
Here, cleave is the victor. If you can calculate the value of these other bonuses (no glance, +hit, +10% crit damage), THEN you can calculate what is better damage per threat.
Heroic strike will always be higher DPS and damage-per-rage if you are not threat limited. Cleave can be more damage-per-threat if you are hitting very hard.
I just cleave dump on the feral target because he generally positions himself to swipe 2 targets (if we need 2 melee targets tanked on one tank, he generally get it). So when I cleave dump, the damage return is significant (2 targets). Also, his positioning will generally let me WW whereas our warriors will generally stand next to sheep (not being the TC addicts I was when I was tanking) so I can't ww. That leaves me BTing and putting up a lot of HSes. In general aggro is still not a problem if I have salve.
For those 2 MHs, isn't the Phoenix clearly superior? 35 (crit/hit) + 48 ap is 59 well used stat points. Azhara is 53 stat points used fairly well (crit would have been better than agil) with the difference put in as armor which is more or less useless. Same min/max/spd. This is assuming you are not sword specced.
For those 2 MHs, isn't the Phoenix clearly superior? 35 (crit/hit) + 48 ap is 59 well used stat points. Azhara is 53 stat points used fairly well (crit would have been better than agil) with the difference put in as armor which is more or less useless. Same min/max/spd. This is assuming you are not sword specced.
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Originally Posted by Calgar
I agree with most of your choices, although i'd take destroyer pants over mericless for a couple reasons.
Str > Sta IMO. Socket it with 10 str (I buy my gems from a BT guild on our server for 200g each) Merciless is just.....nubby. Showing dps gear with PvP epics in it kinda makes you look like a scrub in my opinion. Also, Talon of the Phoenix is being buffed in 2.2, so it might be better then Azshara. Just checked your armory....Holy crap @ all your +hit gems, and +hit trinket. I'd STRONGLY suggest Destroyer pants, and socket with the epic gem out of steam vaults (5 str, 4 hit). This is a big boost in AP, and should allow you to switch some of your hit gems to crit/AP. We have almost identical gear, but i edge you out by about 2% crit (I assume you are in zerk stance anyways) and 180 AP. Although i assume you have a bloodlust brooch instead of a riding crop for DPS :P |
I'm assuming if talon of the phoenix is being buffed, azshara would aswell? because aren't they of same ilevel?
edited out an accidental double post.
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Originally Posted by Muarf
In my opinion :
Cloak : [Vengeance Wrap] with +8str = 68AP / 23 crit / 2hit, better than those 3 (but zero stamina) Head : T5 > Felsteel, you have -9 hit and -8 crit, but more strength. With +24AP diamond and [Sovereign Nightseye] you get 42 more AP Chest : You're right, Bloodsea brigand is much better than krakken, either with 3x +8str gems or 2x +8crit and 4str/6stam for socket bonus Legs: T5 are better than Arena2, more Str and hit for a little less crit. You can also get [Greaves of the Bloodwarder] on solarian, more Str too but less hit rating. Rings : ranger general is good, for the 2nd, I think [Ring of Reciprocity] (kazzak) is better than lethality Ranged: the shuriken is not bad, but vashj's bow got 38 AP and 16 crit rating (post patch) and if you want hit rating arcanite steam-pistol got +19 (and 20 agility) edit: DST is a realy good trinket, and [Solarian's Sapphire] is a good one too, +70AP on BS, affected by Commanding Presence it's +87.5 AP for your party |
thanks for the great advice, i've only been fury about 5 days now..
Okay, so the t5 is actually better for several slots, I'll have to keep that in mind when we do loot, as usually 50-60% of our raid is wanting Defender, and they drop about 20% of the time.. gg dbl champion.
What stones should I use on my Mainhand [Talon of Azshara]
and offhand [Merciless Gladiator's Left Ripper]
Enchants:
Mongoose MH / Potency OH or is Mongoose just that good to put it on both?
Cats Swiftness on boots or 12 agi?
What are the best trinkets.. Is the [Bloodlust Brooch] up there for a fury war?
[Dragonspine Trophy] is #1 as far as I can tell, even with the haste nerf.
How does it compare with the [Abacus of Violent Odds]? or [Hourglass of the Unraveller] is still better?
I lost the [Romulo's Poison Vial] and I have the abacus already, I'm next up for the DST or the Tsunami Talisman. but I am at about 30 badges towards the bloodlust brooch aswell.
Any suggestions?
and offhand [Merciless Gladiator's Left Ripper]
Enchants:
Mongoose MH / Potency OH or is Mongoose just that good to put it on both?
Cats Swiftness on boots or 12 agi?
What are the best trinkets.. Is the [Bloodlust Brooch] up there for a fury war?
[Dragonspine Trophy] is #1 as far as I can tell, even with the haste nerf.
How does it compare with the [Abacus of Violent Odds]? or [Hourglass of the Unraveller] is still better?
I lost the [Romulo's Poison Vial] and I have the abacus already, I'm next up for the DST or the Tsunami Talisman. but I am at about 30 badges towards the bloodlust brooch aswell.
Any suggestions?
Recenty I working on a simulator which simulate a fury warrior dps.
is DW fury white swing miss rate against boss equal to 25.5? I only see some post mentioned that rogue's miss rate is 25.5.
my assumption on the simulator is as follow:
25.5% missed
5.6% dodged
25% glancing with 35% reduction
15.7 Haste rating = 1% haste
windfury totem only work on MH attack which instantly fire a white damage attack with a new roll + 443 ap ( is this ap affected by the 10% bonus from talent? ).
anyone can comfirm the numbers?
Thanks
is DW fury white swing miss rate against boss equal to 25.5? I only see some post mentioned that rogue's miss rate is 25.5.
my assumption on the simulator is as follow:
25.5% missed
5.6% dodged
25% glancing with 35% reduction
15.7 Haste rating = 1% haste
windfury totem only work on MH attack which instantly fire a white damage attack with a new roll + 443 ap ( is this ap affected by the 10% bonus from talent? ).
anyone can comfirm the numbers?
Thanks
I use double Mongoose and love it. Some would say to go for static potency on the off-hand, I guess it's a matter of personal preference in the end. I use [Adamantite Weightstone] on the off-hand and (god forbid) on my main hand when we have no Shaman.
As to the trinket, I'm in much the same position as you are and I plan on swapping out [Abacus of Violent Odds] for [Bloodlust Brooch] and [Dragonspine Trophy] for [Hourglass of the Unraveller]. Oh and if I manage to grab [Tsunami Talisman] I'll wear that instead of the Brooch, I guess. [Romulo's Poison Vial] is good to have around if your +hit is low and you can wear it for bosses. I generally have my +hit around 250 for bosses, though that's a matter of discussion as well, since you're sacrificing other stats.
As to the trinket, I'm in much the same position as you are and I plan on swapping out [Abacus of Violent Odds] for [Bloodlust Brooch] and [Dragonspine Trophy] for [Hourglass of the Unraveller]. Oh and if I manage to grab [Tsunami Talisman] I'll wear that instead of the Brooch, I guess. [Romulo's Poison Vial] is good to have around if your +hit is low and you can wear it for bosses. I generally have my +hit around 250 for bosses, though that's a matter of discussion as well, since you're sacrificing other stats.
I keep seeing that 25.5 number but I can't find a source or a mechanic that backs it up. By the mechanics I know its base 5% + 19% DW penalty + .6% for +3 levels above, so 24.6% miss. I have seen an additional penalty against bosses of 1% per level which is what brings special attacks to 8.6%. But that would bring the DW rate to 27.6 and not 25.5.
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Originally Posted by Machinator
I keep seeing that 25.5 number but I can't find a source or a mechanic that backs it up. By the mechanics I know its base 5% + 19% DW penalty + .6% for +3 levels above, so 24.6% miss. I have seen an additional penalty against bosses of 1% per level which is what brings special attacks to 8.6%. But that would bring the DW rate to 27.6 and not 25.5.
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hope someone can explain it for us.
Edited onPatch 2.1.3
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Originally Posted by phatasma
that is what make me confusing
hope someone can explain it for us. |
See post 383, but the conclusion was that the base miss rate was 9% against a 73rd level mob, +19 if you DW, for a total of 28% miss chance base. 443 hit rating total to attain hit cap unless I'm mistaken.
Last edited by Katrael : 08/29/07 at 6:02 AM.
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Originally Posted by Katrael
I believe some testing was done on the hit cap in this thread: [Rogue/Warrior] Weapon Skill Adjustment Discussion
See post 383, but the conclusion was that the base miss rate was 9% against a 73rd level mob, +19 if you DW, for a total of 28% miss chance base. 443 hit rating total to attain hit cap unless I'm mistaken. |
9% and 28% ..nice ...a big number
Does anyone have any feedback regarding the upcoming haste nerf from the PTR? I've seen the rating value change but was wondering how much it will affect us, especially those of us who use [Dragonstrike]... it's been nerfed to hell, will it still be top fury MH?
So far this is what i have implemented.
My Simulator Which is coded in VC++ MFC.
This simulator take AP, Cri%, Hit%, Haste Rating and Weapons as parameter.
Which simulate a warrior attacking a boss mod with the following assumption.
- 8% base miss for special
- 28% base miss for white swing
- 25% Glancing with 35% reduction
- use Battle Shout whenever possible and 5sec before it fades
- use Rampage whenever possible and 5 sec before it fades
- Windfury proc 20% on mainhand white swing
- BT>WW> HS@65rage
- support a few trinket proc. like 1PPM ~300dmg trinket ( R&J poson? )
My Simulator Which is coded in VC++ MFC.
This simulator take AP, Cri%, Hit%, Haste Rating and Weapons as parameter.
Which simulate a warrior attacking a boss mod with the following assumption.
- 8% base miss for special
- 28% base miss for white swing
- 25% Glancing with 35% reduction
- use Battle Shout whenever possible and 5sec before it fades
- use Rampage whenever possible and 5 sec before it fades
- Windfury proc 20% on mainhand white swing
- BT>WW> HS@65rage
- support a few trinket proc. like 1PPM ~300dmg trinket ( R&J poson? )
For a warrior...
Wicked Edge/Dragonstrike > Anything in SSC, and most in TK, right? I don't know any serious warrior thats not a BS.
Strange trend on the last page of this thread where people are getting +hit weapons and +hit trinkets. Are we trying to compensate for the WF nerf? Because warriors more than any other class benefit from +crit more than +hit so I really can't imagine a time I'd ever want to use Romulo's over Hourglass. You don't need to hit to crit in melee, and if you keep flurry up you're 30% more likely to get a WF proc in that span of time.
The only thing I'd trade for +crit is AP, but even then its a sliding scale. I've personally found +crit to be #1 until about 35% crit, because at a certain point 220% dmg needs to be multiplied off a decent AP. However this is anecdotal and I could just be feeling the effects of getting gear thats overall more powerfull (such as not trading crit for AP, but getting both).
Wicked Edge/Dragonstrike > Anything in SSC, and most in TK, right? I don't know any serious warrior thats not a BS.
Strange trend on the last page of this thread where people are getting +hit weapons and +hit trinkets. Are we trying to compensate for the WF nerf? Because warriors more than any other class benefit from +crit more than +hit so I really can't imagine a time I'd ever want to use Romulo's over Hourglass. You don't need to hit to crit in melee, and if you keep flurry up you're 30% more likely to get a WF proc in that span of time.
The only thing I'd trade for +crit is AP, but even then its a sliding scale. I've personally found +crit to be #1 until about 35% crit, because at a certain point 220% dmg needs to be multiplied off a decent AP. However this is anecdotal and I could just be feeling the effects of getting gear thats overall more powerfull (such as not trading crit for AP, but getting both).
I don't have particularly good gear but I find that I spend most of boss fights in the upper 30s to mid 40s on crit%. I'm starting from 30% base and often work with a feral druid. Tack on kings/mark, maybe a stone, and fairly frequent mongoose procs and that puts me into the 40s. The flurry up time at 38% crit is about 85%. The flurry up time at 44% is something like 90%. I'll probably try to get my hit back over 200 for more white damage, more WF procs, and better execute spam performance. I find it easier to manage my rage the less I'm prone to missing. I hate when I hit 60 rage, queue a HS and pop a BT and then wait 4 seconds to hit again to continue my cycle with WW. I don't use any hit trinkets or items specifically for hit though I do have 2 hit gems in some older gear from when I needed hit. I doubt I'll ever gem for hit again.
+hit
I've been a fury warrior for several weeks now and my guild is 2/6 SSC and 1/4 TK. I struggle to get in top 5 dps usually but im trying to change that.
The Armory
should i just give in to the stacking of +hit? or can someone just tell me what hit rotations they use?
The Armory
should i just give in to the stacking of +hit? or can someone just tell me what hit rotations they use?
Edited onPatch 2.1.3
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Originally Posted by smor
I've been a fury warrior for several weeks now and my guild is 2/6 SSC and 1/4 TK. I struggle to get in top 5 dps usually but im trying to change that.
The Armory should i just give in to the stacking of +hit? or can someone just tell me what hit rotations they use? |
No offense, but the value of hit and proper roptations is a well-trodden area.
Last edited by Apate : 08/29/07 at 1:43 PM. Reason: I miss the good FF spellcheck. F IE.
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Originally Posted by smor
I've been a fury warrior for several weeks now and my guild is 2/6 SSC and 1/4 TK. I struggle to get in top 5 dps usually but im trying to change that.
The Armory should i just give in to the stacking of +hit? or can someone just tell me what hit rotations they use? |
Just a question about your simulator Phantasma - would it be at all possible to code something like that for an MS/slam build?
ie a rotation of:
auto->slam->ms, auto->slam->ww
And if you're really feeling ambitious, add in a (customizable) delay between the autoattack and slam (to simulate lag!!)
Also, it looks like it does, but can you just confirm that your current simulator supports flurry?
ie a rotation of:
auto->slam->ms, auto->slam->ww
And if you're really feeling ambitious, add in a (customizable) delay between the autoattack and slam (to simulate lag!!)
Also, it looks like it does, but can you just confirm that your current simulator supports flurry?
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Originally Posted by world
..., but can you just confirm that your current simulator supports flurry?
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Originally Posted by phatasma
So far this is what i have implemented.
My Simulator Which is coded in VC++ MFC. This simulator take AP, Cri%, Hit%, Haste Rating and Weapons as parameter. Which simulate a warrior attacking a boss mod with the following assumption. - 8% base miss for special - 28% base miss for white swing - 25% Glancing with 35% reduction - use Battle Shout whenever possible and 5sec before it fades - use Rampage whenever possible and 5 sec before it fades - Windfury proc 20% on mainhand white swing - BT>WW> HS@65rage - support a few trinket proc. like 1PPM ~300dmg trinket ( R&J poson? ) |
PLEASE KEEP IN MIND -- My Guild is only progressed 2/4 TK & 5/6 SSC So please limit the gear references to TK And SSC As those are in the near future, but T6 is a little too far away for me to start comparing now. Thanks!
"Armor Reduction > haste > ap > crit > hit" With this in mind, and knowing very well that I can't do anything about the AR yet..
I'd like some of our other bright minds to help me discuss this, or if i've left out other options that would be good/better for me, please say so here. if I compare two items, and use over. means i'm favoring the one previous, if i'm vs, my mind is undecided and would like some input, feel free to give input with some facts regarding things I'm favoring if its wrong in your eyes too please! Also, things with a * means I already have it, but if there is better, please let me know!
Head = * [Fel-Steel Warhelm] over [Destroyer Battle-Helm]
Neck = * [Pendant of the Perilous]
Shoulders = * [Pauldrons of the Wardancer] over [Destroyer Shoulderblades]
Cloak = * [Cloak of the Pit Stalker] vs [Razor-Scale Battlecloak] vs [Thalassian Wildercloak]
Chest = [Bloodsea Brigand's Vest] vs [Krakken-Heart Breastplate] (Leaning Towards Bloodsea w/ 3x 8 crit rating gems)
Wrist = [Bracers of Eradication]
Gloves = * [Gauntlets of Martial Perfection] over [Destroyer Gauntlets]
Belt = * [Red Belt of Battle]
Legs = * [Merciless Gladiator's Plate Legguards] vs [Destroyer Greaves]
Feet = * [Warboots of Obliteration]
Rings = #1 = [Band of the Ranger-General] #2 = * [Ring of Lethality]
Trinkets = #1 [Tsunami Talisman] #2 [Dragonspine Trophy]
MH = * [Talon of Azshara] vs [Talon of the Phoenix]
OH = * [Merciless Gladiator's Left Ripper]
Rng = [Serpentshrine Shuriken]
Another Trinket I found interesting would like to see how it compares with DPS from DST and the Tsunami Talisman, would be the [Solarian's Sapphire], Assuming the usual group of:
Fury War
Combat Rogue x2
Feral Druid
Enh Shaman
"Armor Reduction > haste > ap > crit > hit" With this in mind, and knowing very well that I can't do anything about the AR yet..
I'd like some of our other bright minds to help me discuss this, or if i've left out other options that would be good/better for me, please say so here. if I compare two items, and use over. means i'm favoring the one previous, if i'm vs, my mind is undecided and would like some input, feel free to give input with some facts regarding things I'm favoring if its wrong in your eyes too please! Also, things with a * means I already have it, but if there is better, please let me know!
Head = * [Fel-Steel Warhelm] over [Destroyer Battle-Helm]
Neck = * [Pendant of the Perilous]
Shoulders = * [Pauldrons of the Wardancer] over [Destroyer Shoulderblades]
Cloak = * [Cloak of the Pit Stalker] vs [Razor-Scale Battlecloak] vs [Thalassian Wildercloak]
Chest = [Bloodsea Brigand's Vest] vs [Krakken-Heart Breastplate] (Leaning Towards Bloodsea w/ 3x 8 crit rating gems)
Wrist = [Bracers of Eradication]
Gloves = * [Gauntlets of Martial Perfection] over [Destroyer Gauntlets]
Belt = * [Red Belt of Battle]
Legs = * [Merciless Gladiator's Plate Legguards] vs [Destroyer Greaves]
Feet = * [Warboots of Obliteration]
Rings = #1 = [Band of the Ranger-General] #2 = * [Ring of Lethality]
Trinkets = #1 [Tsunami Talisman] #2 [Dragonspine Trophy]
MH = * [Talon of Azshara] vs [Talon of the Phoenix]
OH = * [Merciless Gladiator's Left Ripper]
Rng = [Serpentshrine Shuriken]
Another Trinket I found interesting would like to see how it compares with DPS from DST and the Tsunami Talisman, would be the [Solarian's Sapphire], Assuming the usual group of:
Fury War
Combat Rogue x2
Feral Druid
Enh Shaman
Edited onPatch 2.1.3
I agree with most of your choices, although i'd take destroyer pants over mericless for a couple reasons.
Str > Sta IMO.
Socket it with 10 str (I buy my gems from a BT guild on our server for 200g each)
Merciless is just.....nubby. Showing dps gear with PvP epics in it kinda makes you look like a scrub in my opinion.
Also, Talon of the Phoenix is being buffed in 2.2, so it might be better then Azshara.
Just checked your armory....Holy crap @ all your +hit gems, and +hit trinket. I'd STRONGLY suggest Destroyer pants, and socket with the epic gem out of steam vaults (5 str, 4 hit). This is a big boost in AP, and should allow you to switch some of your hit gems to crit/AP.
We have almost identical gear, but i edge you out by about 2% crit (I assume you are in zerk stance anyways) and 180 AP. Although i assume you have a bloodlust brooch instead of a riding crop for DPS :P
Str > Sta IMO.
Socket it with 10 str (I buy my gems from a BT guild on our server for 200g each)
Merciless is just.....nubby. Showing dps gear with PvP epics in it kinda makes you look like a scrub in my opinion.
Also, Talon of the Phoenix is being buffed in 2.2, so it might be better then Azshara.
Just checked your armory....Holy crap @ all your +hit gems, and +hit trinket. I'd STRONGLY suggest Destroyer pants, and socket with the epic gem out of steam vaults (5 str, 4 hit). This is a big boost in AP, and should allow you to switch some of your hit gems to crit/AP.
We have almost identical gear, but i edge you out by about 2% crit (I assume you are in zerk stance anyways) and 180 AP. Although i assume you have a bloodlust brooch instead of a riding crop for DPS :P
Last edited by Calgar : 08/28/07 at 10:55 AM.
Edited onPatch 2.1.3
In my opinion :
Cloak : [Vengeance Wrap] with +8str = 68AP / 23 crit / 2hit, better than those 3 (but zero stamina)
Head : T5 > Felsteel, you have -9 hit and -8 crit, but more strength. With +24AP diamond and [Sovereign Nightseye] you get 42 more AP
Chest : You're right, Bloodsea brigand is much better than krakken, either with 3x +8str gems or 2x +8crit and 4str/6stam for socket bonus
Legs: T5 are better than Arena2, more Str and hit for a little less crit. You can also get [Greaves of the Bloodwarder] on solarian, more Str too but less hit rating.
Rings : ranger general is good, for the 2nd, I think [Ring of Reciprocity] (kazzak) is better than lethality
Ranged: the shuriken is not bad, but vashj's bow got 38 AP and 16 crit rating (post patch) and if you want hit rating arcanite steam-pistol got +19 (and 20 agility)
edit: DST is a realy good trinket, and [Solarian's Sapphire] is a good one too, +70AP on BS, affected by Commanding Presence it's +87.5 AP for your party
Cloak : [Vengeance Wrap] with +8str = 68AP / 23 crit / 2hit, better than those 3 (but zero stamina)
Head : T5 > Felsteel, you have -9 hit and -8 crit, but more strength. With +24AP diamond and [Sovereign Nightseye] you get 42 more AP
Chest : You're right, Bloodsea brigand is much better than krakken, either with 3x +8str gems or 2x +8crit and 4str/6stam for socket bonus
Legs: T5 are better than Arena2, more Str and hit for a little less crit. You can also get [Greaves of the Bloodwarder] on solarian, more Str too but less hit rating.
Rings : ranger general is good, for the 2nd, I think [Ring of Reciprocity] (kazzak) is better than lethality
Ranged: the shuriken is not bad, but vashj's bow got 38 AP and 16 crit rating (post patch) and if you want hit rating arcanite steam-pistol got +19 (and 20 agility)
edit: DST is a realy good trinket, and [Solarian's Sapphire] is a good one too, +70AP on BS, affected by Commanding Presence it's +87.5 AP for your party
Last edited by Muarf : 08/28/07 at 11:40 AM. Reason: typo
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Originally Posted by Zalein
Cleave is more threat per damage than HS; it is also more rage per damage. HS is much more threat/rage efficient, just know when to back out and not overaggro.
Edit: Unless, of course, you're actually hitting two targets with your cleave. |
Calculating the threat/damage by only considering +damage bonus
Heroic strike adds 176 damage for 196 threat. That is 1.1 threat per bonus damage.
Cleave adds 70 damage for 130 bonus threat. That is 1.8 threat per bonus damage.
Consider the other bonuses of heroic strike and cleave
Compared to an autoattack, both Heroic Strike and Cleave:
1) Increase chance to hit because it is a special attack.
2) Increase critical strike damage due to impale
3) Cannot be glanced
4) Add some "bonus damage" (176 for heroic strike and 70 for cleave before mitigation)
Re-calculate the threat/damage if you include the additional bonuses of a special attack
For example, let's say that "removing glancing blows and reducing chance to miss" increases the expected damage of an attack by 200. This is rough number based on my calculations from a WWS log on Anetheron.
This changes your calculation as follows:
Heroic strike adds 176 damage (+200 for hit/glance) for 196 threat. 1.92 damage/threat
Cleave adds 70 damage (+200 for hit/glance) for 130 bonus threat. 2.07 damage/threat
Here, cleave is the victor. If you can calculate the value of these other bonuses (no glance, +hit, +10% crit damage), THEN you can calculate what is better damage per threat.
Heroic strike will always be higher DPS and damage-per-rage if you are not threat limited. Cleave can be more damage-per-threat if you are hitting very hard.
I just cleave dump on the feral target because he generally positions himself to swipe 2 targets (if we need 2 melee targets tanked on one tank, he generally get it). So when I cleave dump, the damage return is significant (2 targets). Also, his positioning will generally let me WW whereas our warriors will generally stand next to sheep (not being the TC addicts I was when I was tanking) so I can't ww. That leaves me BTing and putting up a lot of HSes. In general aggro is still not a problem if I have salve.
For those 2 MHs, isn't the Phoenix clearly superior? 35 (crit/hit) + 48 ap is 59 well used stat points. Azhara is 53 stat points used fairly well (crit would have been better than agil) with the difference put in as armor which is more or less useless. Same min/max/spd. This is assuming you are not sword specced.
For those 2 MHs, isn't the Phoenix clearly superior? 35 (crit/hit) + 48 ap is 59 well used stat points. Azhara is 53 stat points used fairly well (crit would have been better than agil) with the difference put in as armor which is more or less useless. Same min/max/spd. This is assuming you are not sword specced.
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Originally Posted by Calgar
I agree with most of your choices, although i'd take destroyer pants over mericless for a couple reasons.
Str > Sta IMO. Socket it with 10 str (I buy my gems from a BT guild on our server for 200g each) Merciless is just.....nubby. Showing dps gear with PvP epics in it kinda makes you look like a scrub in my opinion. Also, Talon of the Phoenix is being buffed in 2.2, so it might be better then Azshara. Just checked your armory....Holy crap @ all your +hit gems, and +hit trinket. I'd STRONGLY suggest Destroyer pants, and socket with the epic gem out of steam vaults (5 str, 4 hit). This is a big boost in AP, and should allow you to switch some of your hit gems to crit/AP. We have almost identical gear, but i edge you out by about 2% crit (I assume you are in zerk stance anyways) and 180 AP. Although i assume you have a bloodlust brooch instead of a riding crop for DPS :P |
I'm assuming if talon of the phoenix is being buffed, azshara would aswell? because aren't they of same ilevel?
edited out an accidental double post.
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Originally Posted by Muarf
In my opinion :
Cloak : [Vengeance Wrap] with +8str = 68AP / 23 crit / 2hit, better than those 3 (but zero stamina) Head : T5 > Felsteel, you have -9 hit and -8 crit, but more strength. With +24AP diamond and [Sovereign Nightseye] you get 42 more AP Chest : You're right, Bloodsea brigand is much better than krakken, either with 3x +8str gems or 2x +8crit and 4str/6stam for socket bonus Legs: T5 are better than Arena2, more Str and hit for a little less crit. You can also get [Greaves of the Bloodwarder] on solarian, more Str too but less hit rating. Rings : ranger general is good, for the 2nd, I think [Ring of Reciprocity] (kazzak) is better than lethality Ranged: the shuriken is not bad, but vashj's bow got 38 AP and 16 crit rating (post patch) and if you want hit rating arcanite steam-pistol got +19 (and 20 agility) edit: DST is a realy good trinket, and [Solarian's Sapphire] is a good one too, +70AP on BS, affected by Commanding Presence it's +87.5 AP for your party |
thanks for the great advice, i've only been fury about 5 days now..
Okay, so the t5 is actually better for several slots, I'll have to keep that in mind when we do loot, as usually 50-60% of our raid is wanting Defender, and they drop about 20% of the time.. gg dbl champion.
What stones should I use on my Mainhand [Talon of Azshara]
and offhand [Merciless Gladiator's Left Ripper]
Enchants:
Mongoose MH / Potency OH or is Mongoose just that good to put it on both?
Cats Swiftness on boots or 12 agi?
What are the best trinkets.. Is the [Bloodlust Brooch] up there for a fury war?
[Dragonspine Trophy] is #1 as far as I can tell, even with the haste nerf.
How does it compare with the [Abacus of Violent Odds]? or [Hourglass of the Unraveller] is still better?
I lost the [Romulo's Poison Vial] and I have the abacus already, I'm next up for the DST or the Tsunami Talisman. but I am at about 30 badges towards the bloodlust brooch aswell.
Any suggestions?
and offhand [Merciless Gladiator's Left Ripper]
Enchants:
Mongoose MH / Potency OH or is Mongoose just that good to put it on both?
Cats Swiftness on boots or 12 agi?
What are the best trinkets.. Is the [Bloodlust Brooch] up there for a fury war?
[Dragonspine Trophy] is #1 as far as I can tell, even with the haste nerf.
How does it compare with the [Abacus of Violent Odds]? or [Hourglass of the Unraveller] is still better?
I lost the [Romulo's Poison Vial] and I have the abacus already, I'm next up for the DST or the Tsunami Talisman. but I am at about 30 badges towards the bloodlust brooch aswell.
Any suggestions?
Recenty I working on a simulator which simulate a fury warrior dps.
is DW fury white swing miss rate against boss equal to 25.5? I only see some post mentioned that rogue's miss rate is 25.5.
my assumption on the simulator is as follow:
25.5% missed
5.6% dodged
25% glancing with 35% reduction
15.7 Haste rating = 1% haste
windfury totem only work on MH attack which instantly fire a white damage attack with a new roll + 443 ap ( is this ap affected by the 10% bonus from talent? ).
anyone can comfirm the numbers?
Thanks
is DW fury white swing miss rate against boss equal to 25.5? I only see some post mentioned that rogue's miss rate is 25.5.
my assumption on the simulator is as follow:
25.5% missed
5.6% dodged
25% glancing with 35% reduction
15.7 Haste rating = 1% haste
windfury totem only work on MH attack which instantly fire a white damage attack with a new roll + 443 ap ( is this ap affected by the 10% bonus from talent? ).
anyone can comfirm the numbers?
Thanks
I use double Mongoose and love it. Some would say to go for static potency on the off-hand, I guess it's a matter of personal preference in the end. I use [Adamantite Weightstone] on the off-hand and (god forbid) on my main hand when we have no Shaman.
As to the trinket, I'm in much the same position as you are and I plan on swapping out [Abacus of Violent Odds] for [Bloodlust Brooch] and [Dragonspine Trophy] for [Hourglass of the Unraveller]. Oh and if I manage to grab [Tsunami Talisman] I'll wear that instead of the Brooch, I guess. [Romulo's Poison Vial] is good to have around if your +hit is low and you can wear it for bosses. I generally have my +hit around 250 for bosses, though that's a matter of discussion as well, since you're sacrificing other stats.
As to the trinket, I'm in much the same position as you are and I plan on swapping out [Abacus of Violent Odds] for [Bloodlust Brooch] and [Dragonspine Trophy] for [Hourglass of the Unraveller]. Oh and if I manage to grab [Tsunami Talisman] I'll wear that instead of the Brooch, I guess. [Romulo's Poison Vial] is good to have around if your +hit is low and you can wear it for bosses. I generally have my +hit around 250 for bosses, though that's a matter of discussion as well, since you're sacrificing other stats.
I keep seeing that 25.5 number but I can't find a source or a mechanic that backs it up. By the mechanics I know its base 5% + 19% DW penalty + .6% for +3 levels above, so 24.6% miss. I have seen an additional penalty against bosses of 1% per level which is what brings special attacks to 8.6%. But that would bring the DW rate to 27.6 and not 25.5.
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Originally Posted by Machinator
I keep seeing that 25.5 number but I can't find a source or a mechanic that backs it up. By the mechanics I know its base 5% + 19% DW penalty + .6% for +3 levels above, so 24.6% miss. I have seen an additional penalty against bosses of 1% per level which is what brings special attacks to 8.6%. But that would bring the DW rate to 27.6 and not 25.5.
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hope someone can explain it for us.
Edited onPatch 2.1.3
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Originally Posted by phatasma
that is what make me confusing
hope someone can explain it for us. |
See post 383, but the conclusion was that the base miss rate was 9% against a 73rd level mob, +19 if you DW, for a total of 28% miss chance base. 443 hit rating total to attain hit cap unless I'm mistaken.
Last edited by Katrael : 08/29/07 at 6:02 AM.
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Originally Posted by Katrael
I believe some testing was done on the hit cap in this thread: [Rogue/Warrior] Weapon Skill Adjustment Discussion
See post 383, but the conclusion was that the base miss rate was 9% against a 73rd level mob, +19 if you DW, for a total of 28% miss chance base. 443 hit rating total to attain hit cap unless I'm mistaken. |
9% and 28% ..nice ...a big number
Does anyone have any feedback regarding the upcoming haste nerf from the PTR? I've seen the rating value change but was wondering how much it will affect us, especially those of us who use [Dragonstrike]... it's been nerfed to hell, will it still be top fury MH?
So far this is what i have implemented.
My Simulator Which is coded in VC++ MFC.
This simulator take AP, Cri%, Hit%, Haste Rating and Weapons as parameter.
Which simulate a warrior attacking a boss mod with the following assumption.
- 8% base miss for special
- 28% base miss for white swing
- 25% Glancing with 35% reduction
- use Battle Shout whenever possible and 5sec before it fades
- use Rampage whenever possible and 5 sec before it fades
- Windfury proc 20% on mainhand white swing
- BT>WW> HS@65rage
- support a few trinket proc. like 1PPM ~300dmg trinket ( R&J poson? )
My Simulator Which is coded in VC++ MFC.
This simulator take AP, Cri%, Hit%, Haste Rating and Weapons as parameter.
Which simulate a warrior attacking a boss mod with the following assumption.
- 8% base miss for special
- 28% base miss for white swing
- 25% Glancing with 35% reduction
- use Battle Shout whenever possible and 5sec before it fades
- use Rampage whenever possible and 5 sec before it fades
- Windfury proc 20% on mainhand white swing
- BT>WW> HS@65rage
- support a few trinket proc. like 1PPM ~300dmg trinket ( R&J poson? )
For a warrior...
Wicked Edge/Dragonstrike > Anything in SSC, and most in TK, right? I don't know any serious warrior thats not a BS.
Strange trend on the last page of this thread where people are getting +hit weapons and +hit trinkets. Are we trying to compensate for the WF nerf? Because warriors more than any other class benefit from +crit more than +hit so I really can't imagine a time I'd ever want to use Romulo's over Hourglass. You don't need to hit to crit in melee, and if you keep flurry up you're 30% more likely to get a WF proc in that span of time.
The only thing I'd trade for +crit is AP, but even then its a sliding scale. I've personally found +crit to be #1 until about 35% crit, because at a certain point 220% dmg needs to be multiplied off a decent AP. However this is anecdotal and I could just be feeling the effects of getting gear thats overall more powerfull (such as not trading crit for AP, but getting both).
Wicked Edge/Dragonstrike > Anything in SSC, and most in TK, right? I don't know any serious warrior thats not a BS.
Strange trend on the last page of this thread where people are getting +hit weapons and +hit trinkets. Are we trying to compensate for the WF nerf? Because warriors more than any other class benefit from +crit more than +hit so I really can't imagine a time I'd ever want to use Romulo's over Hourglass. You don't need to hit to crit in melee, and if you keep flurry up you're 30% more likely to get a WF proc in that span of time.
The only thing I'd trade for +crit is AP, but even then its a sliding scale. I've personally found +crit to be #1 until about 35% crit, because at a certain point 220% dmg needs to be multiplied off a decent AP. However this is anecdotal and I could just be feeling the effects of getting gear thats overall more powerfull (such as not trading crit for AP, but getting both).
I don't have particularly good gear but I find that I spend most of boss fights in the upper 30s to mid 40s on crit%. I'm starting from 30% base and often work with a feral druid. Tack on kings/mark, maybe a stone, and fairly frequent mongoose procs and that puts me into the 40s. The flurry up time at 38% crit is about 85%. The flurry up time at 44% is something like 90%. I'll probably try to get my hit back over 200 for more white damage, more WF procs, and better execute spam performance. I find it easier to manage my rage the less I'm prone to missing. I hate when I hit 60 rage, queue a HS and pop a BT and then wait 4 seconds to hit again to continue my cycle with WW. I don't use any hit trinkets or items specifically for hit though I do have 2 hit gems in some older gear from when I needed hit. I doubt I'll ever gem for hit again.
+hit
I've been a fury warrior for several weeks now and my guild is 2/6 SSC and 1/4 TK. I struggle to get in top 5 dps usually but im trying to change that.
The Armory
should i just give in to the stacking of +hit? or can someone just tell me what hit rotations they use?
The Armory
should i just give in to the stacking of +hit? or can someone just tell me what hit rotations they use?
Edited onPatch 2.1.3
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Originally Posted by smor
I've been a fury warrior for several weeks now and my guild is 2/6 SSC and 1/4 TK. I struggle to get in top 5 dps usually but im trying to change that.
The Armory should i just give in to the stacking of +hit? or can someone just tell me what hit rotations they use? |
No offense, but the value of hit and proper roptations is a well-trodden area.
Last edited by Apate : 08/29/07 at 1:43 PM. Reason: I miss the good FF spellcheck. F IE.
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Originally Posted by smor
I've been a fury warrior for several weeks now and my guild is 2/6 SSC and 1/4 TK. I struggle to get in top 5 dps usually but im trying to change that.
The Armory should i just give in to the stacking of +hit? or can someone just tell me what hit rotations they use? |
Just a question about your simulator Phantasma - would it be at all possible to code something like that for an MS/slam build?
ie a rotation of:
auto->slam->ms, auto->slam->ww
And if you're really feeling ambitious, add in a (customizable) delay between the autoattack and slam (to simulate lag!!)
Also, it looks like it does, but can you just confirm that your current simulator supports flurry?
ie a rotation of:
auto->slam->ms, auto->slam->ww
And if you're really feeling ambitious, add in a (customizable) delay between the autoattack and slam (to simulate lag!!)
Also, it looks like it does, but can you just confirm that your current simulator supports flurry?
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Originally Posted by world
..., but can you just confirm that your current simulator supports flurry?
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Originally Posted by phatasma
So far this is what i have implemented.
My Simulator Which is coded in VC++ MFC. This simulator take AP, Cri%, Hit%, Haste Rating and Weapons as parameter. Which simulate a warrior attacking a boss mod with the following assumption. - 8% base miss for special - 28% base miss for white swing - 25% Glancing with 35% reduction - use Battle Shout whenever possible and 5sec before it fades - use Rampage whenever possible and 5 sec before it fades - Windfury proc 20% on mainhand white swing - BT>WW> HS@65rage - support a few trinket proc. like 1PPM ~300dmg trinket ( R&J poson? ) |
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Originally Posted by Grymm
T4 DPS pants were bad last I saw them, but Bladespire Warbands would be an upgrade. Gauntlets of Martial Perfection are probably better itemized than your gloves...How high are you getting on dps?
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When working with the Warrior Spreadsheet, I've read that armour penetration isn't modelled accurately. As such, Bladefists's breadth yields a higher dps #. I just picked up the Icon of unyielding courage which is 35 static hit rating and upon use, attacks ignore 600 armour. Any suggestions on which is the better choice? Currently, my other trinket is the Hourglass of the Unraveller.
Thanks,
Thanks,
Armor penetration isn't modeled correctly because it's variable based on the mobs armor for any given fight, although -600 is pretty significant.
i had never seen that icon(cooldown 2min?) before but now i think it might be worth replacing Hourglass with it as DW fury and only 185 hit rating. It might be a nice combo with a haste pot so you can use both at the same time rather than hourglass proc'ing whenever and reacting to it. I use Bloodlust brooch in the other slot
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Originally Posted by world
Just a question about your simulator Phantasma - would it be at all possible to code something like that for an MS/slam build?
ie a rotation of: auto->slam->ms, auto->slam->ww And if you're really feeling ambitious, add in a (customizable) delay between the autoattack and slam (to simulate lag!!) Also, it looks like it does, but can you just confirm that your current simulator supports flurry?  |
i found a bug..
i forgot to add in the impale bonus for special.i have no idea how MS rotation work so ..hmm ..=.=
Edited onPatch 2.1.3
Simulator looks cool so far, lots of potential in something like this. I assume that the haste proc actually works as haste although the heading says AP?
Not that I mean to overwhelm you with stuff but these are just things I would like to see if you have time.
-Improved Berserker stance/Unleashed Rage check box
-Commanding Presence/Solarian Sapphire check box would change Battle Shout AP
-Imp. Heroic Strike, DW Spec, Anger Management, Impale, Deep Wounds, and so on...
-Input mob armor rather than % reduction and add a armor penetration box.
-Mongoose
-Input length of fight, maybe then execute could be modeled as well
And to be really nifty a report at the end with a breakdown of things like actual crit rate, % of total damage, uptime of trinkets, ect.
EDIT: And a way that I don't have to put in my stats every time would be cool too.
Not that I mean to overwhelm you with stuff but these are just things I would like to see if you have time.
-Improved Berserker stance/Unleashed Rage check box
-Commanding Presence/Solarian Sapphire check box would change Battle Shout AP
-Imp. Heroic Strike, DW Spec, Anger Management, Impale, Deep Wounds, and so on...
-Input mob armor rather than % reduction and add a armor penetration box.
-Mongoose
-Input length of fight, maybe then execute could be modeled as well
And to be really nifty a report at the end with a breakdown of things like actual crit rate, % of total damage, uptime of trinkets, ect.
EDIT: And a way that I don't have to put in my stats every time would be cool too.
Last edited by Machinator : 08/29/07 at 5:59 PM.
Hm, not sure if this is the right place to ask but..
I'm usually in a OT role in my guild (moving on to SSC/TK still), but sometimes I get a Blood Frenzy debuffing/rogue buffing role. However, without a WF totem in my party, I can barely surpass 500 DPS - with it, I can get around 650 DPS, more or less (tested it on Gruul, so it might be off a bit). I'm thinking these figures are a bit low, but with my current gear (mostly lvl 70 blues with s2 shoulders and heroic mecha legs, using Despair - around 28% crit, 1500 AP, and not much hit at all.. 4 or 5% I think), I'm not really sure how I can get it higher.
Without WF, I'm most of the time rage starved so I can't use slam effectively - with it, I can, so the DPS is a bit better. I'm thinking my gear has something to do with it - should I try to get some leather gear from Karazhan?
By the way - on a completey unrelated note, I was thinking (well, economy classes....) about making a simulator as well, but modelling some things (mongoose, death wish and etc) are a bit hard to do. Do you guys just do it like - X ppm with a Y sec duration, with no cooldown, so it's X*Y/60?
I'm usually in a OT role in my guild (moving on to SSC/TK still), but sometimes I get a Blood Frenzy debuffing/rogue buffing role. However, without a WF totem in my party, I can barely surpass 500 DPS - with it, I can get around 650 DPS, more or less (tested it on Gruul, so it might be off a bit). I'm thinking these figures are a bit low, but with my current gear (mostly lvl 70 blues with s2 shoulders and heroic mecha legs, using Despair - around 28% crit, 1500 AP, and not much hit at all.. 4 or 5% I think), I'm not really sure how I can get it higher.
Without WF, I'm most of the time rage starved so I can't use slam effectively - with it, I can, so the DPS is a bit better. I'm thinking my gear has something to do with it - should I try to get some leather gear from Karazhan?
By the way - on a completey unrelated note, I was thinking (well, economy classes....) about making a simulator as well, but modelling some things (mongoose, death wish and etc) are a bit hard to do. Do you guys just do it like - X ppm with a Y sec duration, with no cooldown, so it's X*Y/60?
I pulled out 1050 DPS over the entire magtheridon fight, and I was on cube duty.
I was not #1 dpser but i think it was my best recorded dps since i went Fury last week.
only thing that will make your dps higher, since the 'cycle' is really so small
is just your gear and your spec.
i noticed a large increase when i went from kings defender offhand to merc glad offhand before the raid too.
I was not #1 dpser but i think it was my best recorded dps since i went Fury last week.
only thing that will make your dps higher, since the 'cycle' is really so small
is just your gear and your spec.
i noticed a large increase when i went from kings defender offhand to merc glad offhand before the raid too.
How are you guys dealing with threat these days? I'm finding it troublesome even with Tranquil Air totem (salvation is always there by default), Most WWS parses I look at have heavy Heroic Strike use (though lower Hamstring use than my own parses) while doing similar/more DPS and having Windfury totem much more often. The tanks between parses also have similar numbers, in fact ours are currently using pretty grounded avoidance ratings by comparison for smoother rage generation, aswell as more hit and SBV.
Do you skid the line between the tank's threat and aggro gain? Or do you try to stay under the tank's threat at all times?
Do you skid the line between the tank's threat and aggro gain? Or do you try to stay under the tank's threat at all times?
Depends on the fight, but I usually skim just under the tanks threat.
Edited onPatch 2.2.2
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Originally Posted by Machinator
Simulator looks cool so far, lots of potential in something like this. I assume that the haste proc actually works as haste although the heading says AP?
Not that I mean to overwhelm you with stuff but these are just things I would like to see if you have time. -Improved Berserker stance/Unleashed Rage check box -Commanding Presence/Solarian Sapphire check box would change Battle Shout AP -Imp. Heroic Strike, DW Spec, Anger Management, Impale, Deep Wounds, and so on... -Input mob armor rather than % reduction and add a armor penetration box. -Mongoose -Input length of fight, maybe then execute could be modeled as well And to be really nifty a report at the end with a breakdown of things like actual crit rate, % of total damage, uptime of trinkets, ect. EDIT: And a way that I don't have to put in my stats every time would be cool too. |
Last edited by phatasma : 10/04/07 at 4:27 AM.
I guess you wouldnt need 2 boxes. Copied from what I found before
% Reduction = Armor / ( Armor + 467.5 * <Level> - 22168)
% Reduction = Armor / ( Armor + 467.5 * <Level> - 22168)
Edited onPatch 2.1.3
|
Originally Posted by Machinator
I guess you wouldnt need 2 boxes. Copied from what I found before
% Reduction = Armor / ( Armor + 467.5 * <Level> - 22168) |
btw, what is mongoose proc rate?
Simulator is updated. Same location.
update one more. 1.0.0.4
fixed the haste calculation that multiply the passive haste rating % and proc. haste rating % in the old sims.
messed up the self-buffed AP after implement mongoose, so d/l it after if you are interested
updated again to fix mongoose =.= .. at GMT 7:30
Last edited by phatasma : 08/30/07 at 4:23 AM.
|
Originally Posted by Natural
Have a look at some of our WWS logs this week. Thyrfing is a 33/28 warrior who doesn't usually get the same buffs (LOTP, Enhancement shaman v. normal shaman) but usually does a great job.
Partial BT Clear: Wow Web Stats Hyjal Clear:Wow Web Stats As you can see--there's still hope but it definitely requires great gear. |
Warriors definately require great gear but how much do you out gear the other ppl in these raids? or are you all equally geared?
Edit: Ive been checking Armory but gear/specs may have changed since these stats so i just wanted to read it right from you if you would be so kind
About the simulator, it doesn't look like its using dual wield specialization, but could you confirm please And to be really difficult, improved WW to reduce cooldown to either 8 or 9 seconds!
Also, to construct a similar simulator for an MS / imp slam build, constraints would be something like this:
After every autoattack, if rage > 15, cast slam (<-- highest priority)
(slam is 0.5 sec cast time, resets swing timer)
Next GCD, use an instant ( This is the only time instants are used )
(if rage >30 use MS, if rage >20 use WW) (cooldowns permitting)
Then wait for next autoattack, and repeat.
Things to watch out for:
Cast battle shout as your first instant, but only recast it in the "instant" slot when both MS and WW are on cooldown, within 10 seconds of it fading.
Possible builds have 3/5 flurry and 5/5 flurry.
Sword spec: Procs off any autoattack or instant, but does not reset autoattack timer.
Glancing rate is still the same, but miss rate for all attacks is now the Specials miss rate.
One other thing to do if possible - implement a customizable delay between the autoattack and slam beginning to cast, to simulate lag.
I hope this doesn't overwhelm you, because if it's possible to construct this, that would be so cool
.
And to be really difficult, improved WW to reduce cooldown to either 8 or 9 seconds!Also, to construct a similar simulator for an MS / imp slam build, constraints would be something like this:
After every autoattack, if rage > 15, cast slam (<-- highest priority)
(slam is 0.5 sec cast time, resets swing timer)
Next GCD, use an instant ( This is the only time instants are used )
(if rage >30 use MS, if rage >20 use WW) (cooldowns permitting)
Then wait for next autoattack, and repeat.
Things to watch out for:
Cast battle shout as your first instant, but only recast it in the "instant" slot when both MS and WW are on cooldown, within 10 seconds of it fading.
Possible builds have 3/5 flurry and 5/5 flurry.
Sword spec: Procs off any autoattack or instant, but does not reset autoattack timer.
Glancing rate is still the same, but miss rate for all attacks is now the Specials miss rate.
One other thing to do if possible - implement a customizable delay between the autoattack and slam beginning to cast, to simulate lag.
I hope this doesn't overwhelm you, because if it's possible to construct this, that would be so cool
.Edited onPatch 2.2.2
|
Originally Posted by world
About the simulator, it doesn't look like its using dual wield specialization, but could you confirm please
And to be really difficult, improved WW to reduce cooldown to either 8 or 9 seconds!Also, to construct a similar simulator for an MS / imp slam build, constraints would be something like this: After every autoattack, if rage > 15, cast slam (<-- highest priority) (slam is 0.5 sec cast time, resets swing timer) Next GCD, use an instant ( This is the only time instants are used ) (if rage >30 use MS, if rage >20 use WW) (cooldowns permitting) Then wait for next autoattack, and repeat. Things to watch out for: Cast battle shout as your first instant, but only recast it in the "instant" slot when both MS and WW are on cooldown, within 10 seconds of it fading. Possible builds have 3/5 flurry and 5/5 flurry. Sword spec: Procs off any autoattack or instant, but does not reset autoattack timer. Glancing rate is still the same, but miss rate for all attacks is now the Specials miss rate. One other thing to do if possible - implement a customizable delay between the autoattack and slam beginning to cast, to simulate lag. I hope this doesn't overwhelm you, because if it's possible to construct this, that would be so cool . |
Last edited by phatasma : 10/04/07 at 4:26 AM.
Nice update to the sim.
Couple bugs I notice.
Imp Berserker stance isnt affecting the AP proc, and possibly not at all.
The combat log still has the typo where Crit is spelled Cri :P
More suggestions:
-unleashed rage(shaman) is another 10% AP buff
-time stamp combat log
I dont suppose you would let anyone see your code at some point?
Couple bugs I notice.
Imp Berserker stance isnt affecting the AP proc, and possibly not at all.
The combat log still has the typo where Crit is spelled Cri :P
More suggestions:
-unleashed rage(shaman) is another 10% AP buff
-time stamp combat log
I dont suppose you would let anyone see your code at some point?
Hi folks
(First post here so please move this / point me in the right direction if it shouldn't be here!)
Getting towards 70 with my warrior, and planning on going 31/30 for some pvp before i switch to a 33/28 hopefully for some pve dps.
I use the add-on Pawn, and Lootzor.com to sort and rate gear for my current warlock and rogue, and am looking to do the same thing for my warrior. These things give each stat a value in comparison to other stats, so you can work out which is better.
If we assume 1 AP = 1 value, then how would the value of the other relevant stats be, firstly for dps, and then, dare i say it, for tanking?
So, for dps: (just rough numbers based on a pre-kara geared warrior)
AP = 1
Strength = 2?
Agility = ?
Crit rating = ?
Hit rating = ?
Stamina = ?
Haste rating = ?
Weapon skill = ?
And something similar for tanking, but using parry rating, dodge rating, defense rating, block rating, resilience, armor, etc. too.
(First post here so please move this / point me in the right direction if it shouldn't be here!)
Getting towards 70 with my warrior, and planning on going 31/30 for some pvp before i switch to a 33/28 hopefully for some pve dps.
I use the add-on Pawn, and Lootzor.com to sort and rate gear for my current warlock and rogue, and am looking to do the same thing for my warrior. These things give each stat a value in comparison to other stats, so you can work out which is better.
If we assume 1 AP = 1 value, then how would the value of the other relevant stats be, firstly for dps, and then, dare i say it, for tanking?
So, for dps: (just rough numbers based on a pre-kara geared warrior)
AP = 1
Strength = 2?
Agility = ?
Crit rating = ?
Hit rating = ?
Stamina = ?
Haste rating = ?
Weapon skill = ?
And something similar for tanking, but using parry rating, dodge rating, defense rating, block rating, resilience, armor, etc. too.
Regarding the question about slam usage,
to be honest, I really don't know why I prioritize slam over MS or WW. However, I probably treat slam as the basic attack, and MS and WW as "rage dumps". As a 2H spec, rage will always be more of an issue than as dual wield fury, and I find that even a glancing blow gives me enough rage for a slam, whereas it often wont be enough for MS or WW. But i guess that comes down to personal preference.
However, that being said, I'd welcome any positive/negative feedback on this philosophy from any other diehard imp slam pve'rs
to be honest, I really don't know why I prioritize slam over MS or WW. However, I probably treat slam as the basic attack, and MS and WW as "rage dumps". As a 2H spec, rage will always be more of an issue than as dual wield fury, and I find that even a glancing blow gives me enough rage for a slam, whereas it often wont be enough for MS or WW. But i guess that comes down to personal preference.
However, that being said, I'd welcome any positive/negative feedback on this philosophy from any other diehard imp slam pve'rs
|
Originally Posted by smor
Natural
Warriors definately require great gear but how much do you out gear the other ppl in these raids? or are you all equally geared? Edit: Ive been checking Armory but gear/specs may have changed since these stats so i just wanted to read it right from you if you would be so kind |
My philosophy is pure DPS classes (rogues/hunters) should almost always get the shared DPS loot first (cloaks, rings, trinkets, necks). We've generally followed that rule except in cases where there is very significant upgrade value or raid playtime/contribution difference. Most of the gear gear is distributed evenly since we run a loot council and have a very high-attendance group of raiders. If you have more specific questions send me a PM.
I still find the whole "pure DPS" argument a little hallow. I understand the logic behind it...Rogues and Hunters only have one function on raids 99% of the time, but then so do DPS Warriors that can output close to the same amount of damage (while buffing the rest of the group). It's not like we go after tanking gear before all of the main Warrior and Druid tanks have what they need, so what's left besides gear that suits our primary raid function? Because we might have the ability to off tank some trash or very weak adds on specific encounters doesn't really invalidate that.
I would never ever loot leather or mail over a Rogue or Hunter or even Shaman unless it was some extreme upgrade that cannot be replaced in the near future by a plate item (which has never been the case), but rings, trinkets and non Bow/Dagger weapons are an entirely different story. On top of all that, Warriors require extremely good gear to stay competetive even against Rogues that might not have the best gear yet.
I would never ever loot leather or mail over a Rogue or Hunter or even Shaman unless it was some extreme upgrade that cannot be replaced in the near future by a plate item (which has never been the case), but rings, trinkets and non Bow/Dagger weapons are an entirely different story. On top of all that, Warriors require extremely good gear to stay competetive even against Rogues that might not have the best gear yet.
Because Rogues and Hunters DPS 100% of fights while Warriors DPS in some number less than 100% of fights?
Personally I tank on 2/6 SSC Fights and 2/4 TK fights, so that's 40%.
Personally I tank on 2/6 SSC Fights and 2/4 TK fights, so that's 40%.
|
Originally Posted by Nimh
Hi folks
(First post here so please move this / point me in the right direction if it shouldn't be here!) Getting towards 70 with my warrior, and planning on going 31/30 for some pvp before i switch to a 33/28 hopefully for some pve dps. I use the add-on Pawn, and Lootzor.com to sort and rate gear for my current warlock and rogue, and am looking to do the same thing for my warrior. These things give each stat a value in comparison to other stats, so you can work out which is better. If we assume 1 AP = 1 value, then how would the value of the other relevant stats be, firstly for dps, and then, dare i say it, for tanking? So, for dps: (just rough numbers based on a pre-kara geared warrior) AP = 1 Strength = 2? Agility = ? Crit rating = ? Hit rating = ? Stamina = ? Haste rating = ? Weapon skill = ? And something similar for tanking, but using parry rating, dodge rating, defense rating, block rating, resilience, armor, etc. too. |
Graul's point is; If you have to pass on tanking loot to the main-tanks, and pass on DPS loot to your main dps (rogue/hunter)...what does that leave us? It's not cool downing a new boss and knowing you won't even have a CHANCE to get loot even if what you want does drops.
| Personally I tank on 2/6 SSC Fights and 2/4 TK fights, so that's 40%. |
|
Originally Posted by Grymm
T4 DPS pants were bad last I saw them, but Bladespire Warbands would be an upgrade. Gauntlets of Martial Perfection are probably better itemized than your gloves...How high are you getting on dps?
|
When working with the Warrior Spreadsheet, I've read that armour penetration isn't modelled accurately. As such, Bladefists's breadth yields a higher dps #. I just picked up the Icon of unyielding courage which is 35 static hit rating and upon use, attacks ignore 600 armour. Any suggestions on which is the better choice? Currently, my other trinket is the Hourglass of the Unraveller.
Thanks,
Thanks,
Armor penetration isn't modeled correctly because it's variable based on the mobs armor for any given fight, although -600 is pretty significant.
i had never seen that icon(cooldown 2min?) before but now i think it might be worth replacing Hourglass with it as DW fury and only 185 hit rating. It might be a nice combo with a haste pot so you can use both at the same time rather than hourglass proc'ing whenever and reacting to it. I use Bloodlust brooch in the other slot
|
Originally Posted by world
Just a question about your simulator Phantasma - would it be at all possible to code something like that for an MS/slam build?
ie a rotation of: auto->slam->ms, auto->slam->ww And if you're really feeling ambitious, add in a (customizable) delay between the autoattack and slam (to simulate lag!!) Also, it looks like it does, but can you just confirm that your current simulator supports flurry? |
i found a bug..
i forgot to add in the impale bonus for special.i have no idea how MS rotation work so ..hmm ..=.=
Edited onPatch 2.1.3
Simulator looks cool so far, lots of potential in something like this. I assume that the haste proc actually works as haste although the heading says AP?
Not that I mean to overwhelm you with stuff but these are just things I would like to see if you have time.
-Improved Berserker stance/Unleashed Rage check box
-Commanding Presence/Solarian Sapphire check box would change Battle Shout AP
-Imp. Heroic Strike, DW Spec, Anger Management, Impale, Deep Wounds, and so on...
-Input mob armor rather than % reduction and add a armor penetration box.
-Mongoose
-Input length of fight, maybe then execute could be modeled as well
And to be really nifty a report at the end with a breakdown of things like actual crit rate, % of total damage, uptime of trinkets, ect.
EDIT: And a way that I don't have to put in my stats every time would be cool too.
Not that I mean to overwhelm you with stuff but these are just things I would like to see if you have time.
-Improved Berserker stance/Unleashed Rage check box
-Commanding Presence/Solarian Sapphire check box would change Battle Shout AP
-Imp. Heroic Strike, DW Spec, Anger Management, Impale, Deep Wounds, and so on...
-Input mob armor rather than % reduction and add a armor penetration box.
-Mongoose
-Input length of fight, maybe then execute could be modeled as well
And to be really nifty a report at the end with a breakdown of things like actual crit rate, % of total damage, uptime of trinkets, ect.
EDIT: And a way that I don't have to put in my stats every time would be cool too.
Last edited by Machinator : 08/29/07 at 5:59 PM.
Hm, not sure if this is the right place to ask but..
I'm usually in a OT role in my guild (moving on to SSC/TK still), but sometimes I get a Blood Frenzy debuffing/rogue buffing role. However, without a WF totem in my party, I can barely surpass 500 DPS - with it, I can get around 650 DPS, more or less (tested it on Gruul, so it might be off a bit). I'm thinking these figures are a bit low, but with my current gear (mostly lvl 70 blues with s2 shoulders and heroic mecha legs, using Despair - around 28% crit, 1500 AP, and not much hit at all.. 4 or 5% I think), I'm not really sure how I can get it higher.
Without WF, I'm most of the time rage starved so I can't use slam effectively - with it, I can, so the DPS is a bit better. I'm thinking my gear has something to do with it - should I try to get some leather gear from Karazhan?
By the way - on a completey unrelated note, I was thinking (well, economy classes....) about making a simulator as well, but modelling some things (mongoose, death wish and etc) are a bit hard to do. Do you guys just do it like - X ppm with a Y sec duration, with no cooldown, so it's X*Y/60?
I'm usually in a OT role in my guild (moving on to SSC/TK still), but sometimes I get a Blood Frenzy debuffing/rogue buffing role. However, without a WF totem in my party, I can barely surpass 500 DPS - with it, I can get around 650 DPS, more or less (tested it on Gruul, so it might be off a bit). I'm thinking these figures are a bit low, but with my current gear (mostly lvl 70 blues with s2 shoulders and heroic mecha legs, using Despair - around 28% crit, 1500 AP, and not much hit at all.. 4 or 5% I think), I'm not really sure how I can get it higher.
Without WF, I'm most of the time rage starved so I can't use slam effectively - with it, I can, so the DPS is a bit better. I'm thinking my gear has something to do with it - should I try to get some leather gear from Karazhan?
By the way - on a completey unrelated note, I was thinking (well, economy classes....) about making a simulator as well, but modelling some things (mongoose, death wish and etc) are a bit hard to do. Do you guys just do it like - X ppm with a Y sec duration, with no cooldown, so it's X*Y/60?
I pulled out 1050 DPS over the entire magtheridon fight, and I was on cube duty.
I was not #1 dpser but i think it was my best recorded dps since i went Fury last week.
only thing that will make your dps higher, since the 'cycle' is really so small
is just your gear and your spec.
i noticed a large increase when i went from kings defender offhand to merc glad offhand before the raid too.
I was not #1 dpser but i think it was my best recorded dps since i went Fury last week.
only thing that will make your dps higher, since the 'cycle' is really so small
is just your gear and your spec.
i noticed a large increase when i went from kings defender offhand to merc glad offhand before the raid too.
How are you guys dealing with threat these days? I'm finding it troublesome even with Tranquil Air totem (salvation is always there by default), Most WWS parses I look at have heavy Heroic Strike use (though lower Hamstring use than my own parses) while doing similar/more DPS and having Windfury totem much more often. The tanks between parses also have similar numbers, in fact ours are currently using pretty grounded avoidance ratings by comparison for smoother rage generation, aswell as more hit and SBV.
Do you skid the line between the tank's threat and aggro gain? Or do you try to stay under the tank's threat at all times?
Do you skid the line between the tank's threat and aggro gain? Or do you try to stay under the tank's threat at all times?
Depends on the fight, but I usually skim just under the tanks threat.
Edited onPatch 2.2.2
|
Originally Posted by Machinator
Simulator looks cool so far, lots of potential in something like this. I assume that the haste proc actually works as haste although the heading says AP?
Not that I mean to overwhelm you with stuff but these are just things I would like to see if you have time. -Improved Berserker stance/Unleashed Rage check box -Commanding Presence/Solarian Sapphire check box would change Battle Shout AP -Imp. Heroic Strike, DW Spec, Anger Management, Impale, Deep Wounds, and so on... -Input mob armor rather than % reduction and add a armor penetration box. -Mongoose -Input length of fight, maybe then execute could be modeled as well And to be really nifty a report at the end with a breakdown of things like actual crit rate, % of total damage, uptime of trinkets, ect. EDIT: And a way that I don't have to put in my stats every time would be cool too. |
Last edited by phatasma : 10/04/07 at 4:27 AM.
I guess you wouldnt need 2 boxes. Copied from what I found before
% Reduction = Armor / ( Armor + 467.5 * <Level> - 22168)
% Reduction = Armor / ( Armor + 467.5 * <Level> - 22168)
Edited onPatch 2.1.3
|
Originally Posted by Machinator
I guess you wouldnt need 2 boxes. Copied from what I found before
% Reduction = Armor / ( Armor + 467.5 * <Level> - 22168) |
btw, what is mongoose proc rate?
Simulator is updated. Same location.
update one more. 1.0.0.4
fixed the haste calculation that multiply the passive haste rating % and proc. haste rating % in the old sims.
messed up the self-buffed AP after implement mongoose, so d/l it after if you are interested
updated again to fix mongoose =.= .. at GMT 7:30
Last edited by phatasma : 08/30/07 at 4:23 AM.
|
Originally Posted by Natural
Have a look at some of our WWS logs this week. Thyrfing is a 33/28 warrior who doesn't usually get the same buffs (LOTP, Enhancement shaman v. normal shaman) but usually does a great job.
Partial BT Clear: Wow Web Stats Hyjal Clear:Wow Web Stats As you can see--there's still hope but it definitely requires great gear. |
Warriors definately require great gear but how much do you out gear the other ppl in these raids? or are you all equally geared?
Edit: Ive been checking Armory but gear/specs may have changed since these stats so i just wanted to read it right from you if you would be so kind
About the simulator, it doesn't look like its using dual wield specialization, but could you confirm please And to be really difficult, improved WW to reduce cooldown to either 8 or 9 seconds!
Also, to construct a similar simulator for an MS / imp slam build, constraints would be something like this:
After every autoattack, if rage > 15, cast slam (<-- highest priority)
(slam is 0.5 sec cast time, resets swing timer)
Next GCD, use an instant ( This is the only time instants are used )
(if rage >30 use MS, if rage >20 use WW) (cooldowns permitting)
Then wait for next autoattack, and repeat.
Things to watch out for:
Cast battle shout as your first instant, but only recast it in the "instant" slot when both MS and WW are on cooldown, within 10 seconds of it fading.
Possible builds have 3/5 flurry and 5/5 flurry.
Sword spec: Procs off any autoattack or instant, but does not reset autoattack timer.
Glancing rate is still the same, but miss rate for all attacks is now the Specials miss rate.
One other thing to do if possible - implement a customizable delay between the autoattack and slam beginning to cast, to simulate lag.
I hope this doesn't overwhelm you, because if it's possible to construct this, that would be so cool.
And to be really difficult, improved WW to reduce cooldown to either 8 or 9 seconds!Also, to construct a similar simulator for an MS / imp slam build, constraints would be something like this:
After every autoattack, if rage > 15, cast slam (<-- highest priority)
(slam is 0.5 sec cast time, resets swing timer)
Next GCD, use an instant ( This is the only time instants are used )
(if rage >30 use MS, if rage >20 use WW) (cooldowns permitting)
Then wait for next autoattack, and repeat.
Things to watch out for:
Cast battle shout as your first instant, but only recast it in the "instant" slot when both MS and WW are on cooldown, within 10 seconds of it fading.
Possible builds have 3/5 flurry and 5/5 flurry.
Sword spec: Procs off any autoattack or instant, but does not reset autoattack timer.
Glancing rate is still the same, but miss rate for all attacks is now the Specials miss rate.
One other thing to do if possible - implement a customizable delay between the autoattack and slam beginning to cast, to simulate lag.
I hope this doesn't overwhelm you, because if it's possible to construct this, that would be so cool
.Edited onPatch 2.2.2
|
Originally Posted by world
About the simulator, it doesn't look like its using dual wield specialization, but could you confirm please
And to be really difficult, improved WW to reduce cooldown to either 8 or 9 seconds!Also, to construct a similar simulator for an MS / imp slam build, constraints would be something like this: After every autoattack, if rage > 15, cast slam (<-- highest priority) (slam is 0.5 sec cast time, resets swing timer) Next GCD, use an instant ( This is the only time instants are used ) (if rage >30 use MS, if rage >20 use WW) (cooldowns permitting) Then wait for next autoattack, and repeat. Things to watch out for: Cast battle shout as your first instant, but only recast it in the "instant" slot when both MS and WW are on cooldown, within 10 seconds of it fading. Possible builds have 3/5 flurry and 5/5 flurry. Sword spec: Procs off any autoattack or instant, but does not reset autoattack timer. Glancing rate is still the same, but miss rate for all attacks is now the Specials miss rate. One other thing to do if possible - implement a customizable delay between the autoattack and slam beginning to cast, to simulate lag. I hope this doesn't overwhelm you, because if it's possible to construct this, that would be so cool . |
Last edited by phatasma : 10/04/07 at 4:26 AM.
Nice update to the sim.
Couple bugs I notice.
Imp Berserker stance isnt affecting the AP proc, and possibly not at all.
The combat log still has the typo where Crit is spelled Cri :P
More suggestions:
-unleashed rage(shaman) is another 10% AP buff
-time stamp combat log
I dont suppose you would let anyone see your code at some point?
Couple bugs I notice.
Imp Berserker stance isnt affecting the AP proc, and possibly not at all.
The combat log still has the typo where Crit is spelled Cri :P
More suggestions:
-unleashed rage(shaman) is another 10% AP buff
-time stamp combat log
I dont suppose you would let anyone see your code at some point?
Hi folks
(First post here so please move this / point me in the right direction if it shouldn't be here!)
Getting towards 70 with my warrior, and planning on going 31/30 for some pvp before i switch to a 33/28 hopefully for some pve dps.
I use the add-on Pawn, and Lootzor.com to sort and rate gear for my current warlock and rogue, and am looking to do the same thing for my warrior. These things give each stat a value in comparison to other stats, so you can work out which is better.
If we assume 1 AP = 1 value, then how would the value of the other relevant stats be, firstly for dps, and then, dare i say it, for tanking?
So, for dps: (just rough numbers based on a pre-kara geared warrior)
AP = 1
Strength = 2?
Agility = ?
Crit rating = ?
Hit rating = ?
Stamina = ?
Haste rating = ?
Weapon skill = ?
And something similar for tanking, but using parry rating, dodge rating, defense rating, block rating, resilience, armor, etc. too.
(First post here so please move this / point me in the right direction if it shouldn't be here!)
Getting towards 70 with my warrior, and planning on going 31/30 for some pvp before i switch to a 33/28 hopefully for some pve dps.
I use the add-on Pawn, and Lootzor.com to sort and rate gear for my current warlock and rogue, and am looking to do the same thing for my warrior. These things give each stat a value in comparison to other stats, so you can work out which is better.
If we assume 1 AP = 1 value, then how would the value of the other relevant stats be, firstly for dps, and then, dare i say it, for tanking?
So, for dps: (just rough numbers based on a pre-kara geared warrior)
AP = 1
Strength = 2?
Agility = ?
Crit rating = ?
Hit rating = ?
Stamina = ?
Haste rating = ?
Weapon skill = ?
And something similar for tanking, but using parry rating, dodge rating, defense rating, block rating, resilience, armor, etc. too.
Regarding the question about slam usage,
to be honest, I really don't know why I prioritize slam over MS or WW. However, I probably treat slam as the basic attack, and MS and WW as "rage dumps". As a 2H spec, rage will always be more of an issue than as dual wield fury, and I find that even a glancing blow gives me enough rage for a slam, whereas it often wont be enough for MS or WW. But i guess that comes down to personal preference.
However, that being said, I'd welcome any positive/negative feedback on this philosophy from any other diehard imp slam pve'rs
to be honest, I really don't know why I prioritize slam over MS or WW. However, I probably treat slam as the basic attack, and MS and WW as "rage dumps". As a 2H spec, rage will always be more of an issue than as dual wield fury, and I find that even a glancing blow gives me enough rage for a slam, whereas it often wont be enough for MS or WW. But i guess that comes down to personal preference.
However, that being said, I'd welcome any positive/negative feedback on this philosophy from any other diehard imp slam pve'rs
|
Originally Posted by smor
Natural
Warriors definately require great gear but how much do you out gear the other ppl in these raids? or are you all equally geared? Edit: Ive been checking Armory but gear/specs may have changed since these stats so i just wanted to read it right from you if you would be so kind |
My philosophy is pure DPS classes (rogues/hunters) should almost always get the shared DPS loot first (cloaks, rings, trinkets, necks). We've generally followed that rule except in cases where there is very significant upgrade value or raid playtime/contribution difference. Most of the gear gear is distributed evenly since we run a loot council and have a very high-attendance group of raiders. If you have more specific questions send me a PM.
I still find the whole "pure DPS" argument a little hallow. I understand the logic behind it...Rogues and Hunters only have one function on raids 99% of the time, but then so do DPS Warriors that can output close to the same amount of damage (while buffing the rest of the group). It's not like we go after tanking gear before all of the main Warrior and Druid tanks have what they need, so what's left besides gear that suits our primary raid function? Because we might have the ability to off tank some trash or very weak adds on specific encounters doesn't really invalidate that.
I would never ever loot leather or mail over a Rogue or Hunter or even Shaman unless it was some extreme upgrade that cannot be replaced in the near future by a plate item (which has never been the case), but rings, trinkets and non Bow/Dagger weapons are an entirely different story. On top of all that, Warriors require extremely good gear to stay competetive even against Rogues that might not have the best gear yet.
I would never ever loot leather or mail over a Rogue or Hunter or even Shaman unless it was some extreme upgrade that cannot be replaced in the near future by a plate item (which has never been the case), but rings, trinkets and non Bow/Dagger weapons are an entirely different story. On top of all that, Warriors require extremely good gear to stay competetive even against Rogues that might not have the best gear yet.
Because Rogues and Hunters DPS 100% of fights while Warriors DPS in some number less than 100% of fights?
Personally I tank on 2/6 SSC Fights and 2/4 TK fights, so that's 40%.
Personally I tank on 2/6 SSC Fights and 2/4 TK fights, so that's 40%.
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Originally Posted by Nimh
Hi folks
(First post here so please move this / point me in the right direction if it shouldn't be here!) Getting towards 70 with my warrior, and planning on going 31/30 for some pvp before i switch to a 33/28 hopefully for some pve dps. I use the add-on Pawn, and Lootzor.com to sort and rate gear for my current warlock and rogue, and am looking to do the same thing for my warrior. These things give each stat a value in comparison to other stats, so you can work out which is better. If we assume 1 AP = 1 value, then how would the value of the other relevant stats be, firstly for dps, and then, dare i say it, for tanking? So, for dps: (just rough numbers based on a pre-kara geared warrior) AP = 1 Strength = 2? Agility = ? Crit rating = ? Hit rating = ? Stamina = ? Haste rating = ? Weapon skill = ? And something similar for tanking, but using parry rating, dodge rating, defense rating, block rating, resilience, armor, etc. too. |
Graul's point is; If you have to pass on tanking loot to the main-tanks, and pass on DPS loot to your main dps (rogue/hunter)...what does that leave us? It's not cool downing a new boss and knowing you won't even have a CHANCE to get loot even if what you want does drops.
| Personally I tank on 2/6 SSC Fights and 2/4 TK fights, so that's 40%. |
Edited onPatch 2.1.3
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Originally Posted by Calgar
Graul's point is; If you have to pass on tanking loot to the main-tanks, and pass on DPS loot to your main dps (rogue/hunter)...what does that leave us? It's not cool downing a new boss and knowing you won't even have a CHANCE to get loot even if what you want does drops.
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Last edited by madrussian : 08/30/07 at 3:39 PM.
Is Malchazeen really better than an AS2 off hand sword? I have one in my bag that I have been messing around with for Execute (I typically used my King's Defender main hand for that), but I can't really see it making up for the raw DPS on an AS2 axe, (sword or mace in your case) especially when you factor in weapon skill. The biggest thing it has going for it is the speed.
I've been offhanding a Malchazeen for a while and really have no complaints. I'm thinking about grabbing a Talon of the Pheonix (2.7 spd mh) and flipping my Talon of Azshara to the OH (2.7 spd) to try a slow/slow setup post buffs. It would be an upgrade in stats, white dps, and up my MH% hasted swings off special crits. With matched speed, I want to play around and see about the 4 swing flurries. Post 20%, I'd probably swap the malchazeen back in.
It was also my off hand weapon until I grabbed a S2 axe. I just can't see it being better overall unless somehow haste is being put to better use with it over a 1.5 weapon. Having dual Mongoose and a Dragonstrike would probably make a 1.5 speed weapon so fast that much of the haste is being wasted. That is really the only way I can see it being better for what it lacks in raw stats.
Edited onPatch 2.1.3
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Originally Posted by Calgar
Graul's point is; If you have to pass on tanking loot to the main-tanks, and pass on DPS loot to your main dps (rogue/hunter)...what does that leave us? It's not cool downing a new boss and knowing you won't even have a CHANCE to get loot even if what you want does drops.
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Last edited by Natural : 08/30/07 at 4:28 PM.
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Originally Posted by Natural
You're forgetting weapons and plate armor that we have almost exclusive rights to.
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Originally Posted by Graul
Is Malchazeen really better than an AS2 off hand sword? I have one in my bag that I have been messing around with for Execute (I typically used my King's Defender main hand for that), but I can't really see it making up for the raw DPS on an AS2 axe, (sword or mace in your case) especially when you factor in weapon skill. The biggest thing it has going for it is the speed.
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Originally Posted by Graul
How is that relevant to rings, trinkets, necks, cloaks and non Dagger/Bow items? Only a real tool would loot lower material armor over another class that can't go higher unless there was simply not anything comparable, and there almost always is.
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In my guild, all of the rogues are favoring Swords which leaves all axes and daggers to me. The ranged slot is relatively insignificant as some of the best ones still drop in Karazhan. In terms of pure DPS the [Vengeance Wrap] is one of the best cloaks available to us, only 15 hit rating less than the Gorefiend cloak. There is plenty of loot for us to pick up.
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Originally Posted by Graul
It was also my off hand weapon until I grabbed a S2 axe. I just can't see it being better overall unless somehow haste is being put to better use with it over a 1.5 weapon. Having dual Mongoose and a Dragonstrike would probably make a 1.5 speed weapon so fast that much of the haste is being wasted. That is really the only way I can see it being better for what it lacks in raw stats.
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Loot is a guild to guild thing through.
I'm treated extremely well because I have almost 100% raid attendance and the only ones who are typically ahead of me are those dirty filthy Rogues. I even have DST and Tsunami Tailsman, heh.
I'm treated extremely well because I have almost 100% raid attendance and the only ones who are typically ahead of me are those dirty filthy Rogues. I even have DST and Tsunami Tailsman, heh.
Edited onPatch 2.1.3
Right, but your original post was too generalized as though each item that was multiclass was defaulted to "Pure DPS" classes just because they are "Pure DPS".
Give.
| DST |
Last edited by Graul : 08/31/07 at 8:14 AM.
Well, if you do 100 dps (nice round number) at 3.0 (300/swing) and 1.5 (150 a swing), your dps at 100% haste (100% more attacks in X amount of time) would be 300/swing at 1.5 seconds (200 dps) and 150 a swing .75 seconds (200 dps) so the values on paper certainly shake down fine.
I agree natural, i wasn't really taking one side of the argument, i was just stating a possible point of view. I actually get all the DPS plate before tanks, and "weekend ret pallys", and the other dps warrior is content to forever stay in 5/5 merciless with a stormherald, with all other PvP items.
Our guild runs a DKP system for 25 mans only, as I'm sure a lot do. I have 2 arena weapons, 2 karazhan rings, Vengeance Wrap, and blood lust brooch. The items i'm looking into getting are DST, maybe a tsunami talisman, and maybe a ring here or there. Post buff i wouldn't mind a talon of Al'ar either.
If i was forced to pass on everything i wanted to rogues, like the dst and tsunami, I doubt i would EVER get them. In a guild killing 5/6 SSC, 2/4 TK, attrition is insanely high. We have recruited about 5 people a month on top of our original 25 in March, and still have issues with class balance and filling raids.
Like i said, passing the "Cross-class" dps items to full time DPS characters MIGHT help the raid a bit....but it would leave me with no viable loot upgrades until everyone else has what they want.
Our guild runs a DKP system for 25 mans only, as I'm sure a lot do. I have 2 arena weapons, 2 karazhan rings, Vengeance Wrap, and blood lust brooch. The items i'm looking into getting are DST, maybe a tsunami talisman, and maybe a ring here or there. Post buff i wouldn't mind a talon of Al'ar either.
If i was forced to pass on everything i wanted to rogues, like the dst and tsunami, I doubt i would EVER get them. In a guild killing 5/6 SSC, 2/4 TK, attrition is insanely high. We have recruited about 5 people a month on top of our original 25 in March, and still have issues with class balance and filling raids.
Like i said, passing the "Cross-class" dps items to full time DPS characters MIGHT help the raid a bit....but it would leave me with no viable loot upgrades until everyone else has what they want.
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Originally Posted by Zyla
I'm pretty sure it's impossible to actually "waste" haste. You get the same dps increase from going from 3.0 to 1.5 as you do going from 1.5 to .75
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lag might be a big factor in how fast you want your attacks to peak.
| Well, if you do 100 dps (nice round number) at 3.0 (300/swing) and 1.5 (150 a swing), your dps at 100% haste (100% more attacks in X amount of time) would be 300/swing at 1.5 seconds (200 dps) and 150 a swing .75 seconds (200 dps) so the values on paper certainly shake down fine. |
Edited onPatch 2.1.3
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Originally Posted by Calgar
I agree natural, i wasn't really taking one side of the argument, i was just stating a possible point of view. I actually get all the DPS plate before tanks, and "weekend ret pallys", and the other dps warrior is content to forever stay in 5/5 merciless with a stormherald, with all other PvP items.
Our guild runs a DKP system for 25 mans only, as I'm sure a lot do. I have 2 arena weapons, 2 karazhan rings, Vengeance Wrap, and blood lust brooch. The items i'm looking into getting are DST, maybe a tsunami talisman, and maybe a ring here or there. Post buff i wouldn't mind a talon of Al'ar either. If i was forced to pass on everything i wanted to rogues, like the dst and tsunami, I doubt i would EVER get them. In a guild killing 5/6 SSC, 2/4 TK, attrition is insanely high. We have recruited about 5 people a month on top of our original 25 in March, and still have issues with class balance and filling raids. Like i said, passing the "Cross-class" dps items to full time DPS characters MIGHT help the raid a bit....but it would leave me with no viable loot upgrades until everyone else has what they want. |
We're traditionally well progressed (finished ATM) and have virtually zero attrition. I have been playing with rogues and hunters I compete with for almost two years, so I am happy to see them get upgrades anytime they are available. In most cases, they can put it to more use than I can, especially if I am threat limited on a particular encounter.
Notably there are a lot of multi-tank situations in SSC/TK, however, in BT/Hyjal I almost never tank in a boss encounter (as the 4th guild tank). By the end of our SSC/TK farming I ended up with plenty of loot from both sides (tank/dps). However, with the change in tanking requirements, I am beginning to be more inclined to pick up some competitive DPS gear. I'm curious what lies ahead in the Sunwell.
I'm also the guild/raid leader and we operate with a loot council, so I try to set an example by letting others pick up competitive things first and only picking up what's default/clearly intended for my class.
Last edited by Natural : 08/30/07 at 5:23 PM.
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Originally Posted by Graul
Can weapon speed drop below 1.0?
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Originally Posted by Graul
Can weapon speed drop below 1.0?
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Originally Posted by Natural
Yes. AFAIK there is no weapon speed limit. I've seen my offhand drop to around 0.4, but I'll have to pull up a screenshot when I get home.
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I can't really make that out even blown up. Is that 0.86? And I know there is a reason for my line of thought, even if a weapon can go below 1.0 speeds, and it's probably because of Flurry charges.
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Originally Posted by Graul
I can't really make that out even blown up. Is that 0.86? And I know there is a reason for my line of thought, even if a weapon can go below 1.0 speeds, and it's probably because of Flurry charges.
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For auto attacks only, flurry charges used are negated by the flurries created by the frequent attacks. 3.0/1.5 - Your OH will use 2/3rds of your flurry charges but it will also create 2/3rds of your auto attack crits.
On a more advanced level, the faster offhand will use more of your flurry charges created by specials (and actually your MH will miss less due to HS usage and thus create more flurry charges). It would be tough to calculate the expected DPS loss if your Flurry is up most of the time regardless. Fast attack speed does create more even rage generation for more efficient/easier cycling that may pick you up some DPS from a playability stand point.
Furthermore, your fast OH gains more from +damage buffs like most sharpening stones, Gift of Arthas (My personal favorite), and hemo should one of your rogues be using that for some reason. You might also get more JoL and more regular imp LotP procs.
There's a lot that goes into oh speed, enough that it would be hard to concretely argue one way or the other.
On a more advanced level, the faster offhand will use more of your flurry charges created by specials (and actually your MH will miss less due to HS usage and thus create more flurry charges). It would be tough to calculate the expected DPS loss if your Flurry is up most of the time regardless. Fast attack speed does create more even rage generation for more efficient/easier cycling that may pick you up some DPS from a playability stand point.
Furthermore, your fast OH gains more from +damage buffs like most sharpening stones, Gift of Arthas (My personal favorite), and hemo should one of your rogues be using that for some reason. You might also get more JoL and more regular imp LotP procs.
There's a lot that goes into oh speed, enough that it would be hard to concretely argue one way or the other.
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Originally Posted by Grymm
On a more advanced level, the faster offhand will use more of your flurry charges created by specials (and actually your MH will miss less due to HS usage and thus create more flurry charges).
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Originally Posted by Hidden
Why should your MH create more Flurry charges when using HS?
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Originally Posted by Apate
HS can't glance, glances can't crit?
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Edit: Since I don't know the exact chance to glance and miss a level 73 boss I simply took the worst values I heard of, so you probably need even more Crit than stated above.
Edited onPatch 2.1.3
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Originally Posted by Calgar
Graul's point is; If you have to pass on tanking loot to the main-tanks, and pass on DPS loot to your main dps (rogue/hunter)...what does that leave us? It's not cool downing a new boss and knowing you won't even have a CHANCE to get loot even if what you want does drops.
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Last edited by madrussian : 08/30/07 at 3:39 PM.
Is Malchazeen really better than an AS2 off hand sword? I have one in my bag that I have been messing around with for Execute (I typically used my King's Defender main hand for that), but I can't really see it making up for the raw DPS on an AS2 axe, (sword or mace in your case) especially when you factor in weapon skill. The biggest thing it has going for it is the speed.
I've been offhanding a Malchazeen for a while and really have no complaints. I'm thinking about grabbing a Talon of the Pheonix (2.7 spd mh) and flipping my Talon of Azshara to the OH (2.7 spd) to try a slow/slow setup post buffs. It would be an upgrade in stats, white dps, and up my MH% hasted swings off special crits. With matched speed, I want to play around and see about the 4 swing flurries. Post 20%, I'd probably swap the malchazeen back in.
It was also my off hand weapon until I grabbed a S2 axe. I just can't see it being better overall unless somehow haste is being put to better use with it over a 1.5 weapon. Having dual Mongoose and a Dragonstrike would probably make a 1.5 speed weapon so fast that much of the haste is being wasted. That is really the only way I can see it being better for what it lacks in raw stats.
Edited onPatch 2.1.3
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Originally Posted by Calgar
Graul's point is; If you have to pass on tanking loot to the main-tanks, and pass on DPS loot to your main dps (rogue/hunter)...what does that leave us? It's not cool downing a new boss and knowing you won't even have a CHANCE to get loot even if what you want does drops.
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Last edited by Natural : 08/30/07 at 4:28 PM.
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Originally Posted by Natural
You're forgetting weapons and plate armor that we have almost exclusive rights to.
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Originally Posted by Graul
Is Malchazeen really better than an AS2 off hand sword? I have one in my bag that I have been messing around with for Execute (I typically used my King's Defender main hand for that), but I can't really see it making up for the raw DPS on an AS2 axe, (sword or mace in your case) especially when you factor in weapon skill. The biggest thing it has going for it is the speed.
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Originally Posted by Graul
How is that relevant to rings, trinkets, necks, cloaks and non Dagger/Bow items? Only a real tool would loot lower material armor over another class that can't go higher unless there was simply not anything comparable, and there almost always is.
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In my guild, all of the rogues are favoring Swords which leaves all axes and daggers to me. The ranged slot is relatively insignificant as some of the best ones still drop in Karazhan. In terms of pure DPS the [Vengeance Wrap] is one of the best cloaks available to us, only 15 hit rating less than the Gorefiend cloak. There is plenty of loot for us to pick up.
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Originally Posted by Graul
It was also my off hand weapon until I grabbed a S2 axe. I just can't see it being better overall unless somehow haste is being put to better use with it over a 1.5 weapon. Having dual Mongoose and a Dragonstrike would probably make a 1.5 speed weapon so fast that much of the haste is being wasted. That is really the only way I can see it being better for what it lacks in raw stats.
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Loot is a guild to guild thing through.
I'm treated extremely well because I have almost 100% raid attendance and the only ones who are typically ahead of me are those dirty filthy Rogues. I even have DST and Tsunami Tailsman, heh.
I'm treated extremely well because I have almost 100% raid attendance and the only ones who are typically ahead of me are those dirty filthy Rogues. I even have DST and Tsunami Tailsman, heh.
Edited onPatch 2.1.3
Right, but your original post was too generalized as though each item that was multiclass was defaulted to "Pure DPS" classes just because they are "Pure DPS".
Give.
| DST |
Last edited by Graul : 08/31/07 at 8:14 AM.
Well, if you do 100 dps (nice round number) at 3.0 (300/swing) and 1.5 (150 a swing), your dps at 100% haste (100% more attacks in X amount of time) would be 300/swing at 1.5 seconds (200 dps) and 150 a swing .75 seconds (200 dps) so the values on paper certainly shake down fine.
I agree natural, i wasn't really taking one side of the argument, i was just stating a possible point of view. I actually get all the DPS plate before tanks, and "weekend ret pallys", and the other dps warrior is content to forever stay in 5/5 merciless with a stormherald, with all other PvP items.
Our guild runs a DKP system for 25 mans only, as I'm sure a lot do. I have 2 arena weapons, 2 karazhan rings, Vengeance Wrap, and blood lust brooch. The items i'm looking into getting are DST, maybe a tsunami talisman, and maybe a ring here or there. Post buff i wouldn't mind a talon of Al'ar either.
If i was forced to pass on everything i wanted to rogues, like the dst and tsunami, I doubt i would EVER get them. In a guild killing 5/6 SSC, 2/4 TK, attrition is insanely high. We have recruited about 5 people a month on top of our original 25 in March, and still have issues with class balance and filling raids.
Like i said, passing the "Cross-class" dps items to full time DPS characters MIGHT help the raid a bit....but it would leave me with no viable loot upgrades until everyone else has what they want.
Our guild runs a DKP system for 25 mans only, as I'm sure a lot do. I have 2 arena weapons, 2 karazhan rings, Vengeance Wrap, and blood lust brooch. The items i'm looking into getting are DST, maybe a tsunami talisman, and maybe a ring here or there. Post buff i wouldn't mind a talon of Al'ar either.
If i was forced to pass on everything i wanted to rogues, like the dst and tsunami, I doubt i would EVER get them. In a guild killing 5/6 SSC, 2/4 TK, attrition is insanely high. We have recruited about 5 people a month on top of our original 25 in March, and still have issues with class balance and filling raids.
Like i said, passing the "Cross-class" dps items to full time DPS characters MIGHT help the raid a bit....but it would leave me with no viable loot upgrades until everyone else has what they want.
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Originally Posted by Zyla
I'm pretty sure it's impossible to actually "waste" haste. You get the same dps increase from going from 3.0 to 1.5 as you do going from 1.5 to .75
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lag might be a big factor in how fast you want your attacks to peak.
| Well, if you do 100 dps (nice round number) at 3.0 (300/swing) and 1.5 (150 a swing), your dps at 100% haste (100% more attacks in X amount of time) would be 300/swing at 1.5 seconds (200 dps) and 150 a swing .75 seconds (200 dps) so the values on paper certainly shake down fine. |
Edited onPatch 2.1.3
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Originally Posted by Calgar
I agree natural, i wasn't really taking one side of the argument, i was just stating a possible point of view. I actually get all the DPS plate before tanks, and "weekend ret pallys", and the other dps warrior is content to forever stay in 5/5 merciless with a stormherald, with all other PvP items.
Our guild runs a DKP system for 25 mans only, as I'm sure a lot do. I have 2 arena weapons, 2 karazhan rings, Vengeance Wrap, and blood lust brooch. The items i'm looking into getting are DST, maybe a tsunami talisman, and maybe a ring here or there. Post buff i wouldn't mind a talon of Al'ar either. If i was forced to pass on everything i wanted to rogues, like the dst and tsunami, I doubt i would EVER get them. In a guild killing 5/6 SSC, 2/4 TK, attrition is insanely high. We have recruited about 5 people a month on top of our original 25 in March, and still have issues with class balance and filling raids. Like i said, passing the "Cross-class" dps items to full time DPS characters MIGHT help the raid a bit....but it would leave me with no viable loot upgrades until everyone else has what they want. |
We're traditionally well progressed (finished ATM) and have virtually zero attrition. I have been playing with rogues and hunters I compete with for almost two years, so I am happy to see them get upgrades anytime they are available. In most cases, they can put it to more use than I can, especially if I am threat limited on a particular encounter.
Notably there are a lot of multi-tank situations in SSC/TK, however, in BT/Hyjal I almost never tank in a boss encounter (as the 4th guild tank). By the end of our SSC/TK farming I ended up with plenty of loot from both sides (tank/dps). However, with the change in tanking requirements, I am beginning to be more inclined to pick up some competitive DPS gear. I'm curious what lies ahead in the Sunwell.
I'm also the guild/raid leader and we operate with a loot council, so I try to set an example by letting others pick up competitive things first and only picking up what's default/clearly intended for my class.
Last edited by Natural : 08/30/07 at 5:23 PM.
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Originally Posted by Graul
Can weapon speed drop below 1.0?
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Originally Posted by Graul
Can weapon speed drop below 1.0?
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Originally Posted by Natural
Yes. AFAIK there is no weapon speed limit. I've seen my offhand drop to around 0.4, but I'll have to pull up a screenshot when I get home.
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I can't really make that out even blown up. Is that 0.86? And I know there is a reason for my line of thought, even if a weapon can go below 1.0 speeds, and it's probably because of Flurry charges.
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Originally Posted by Graul
I can't really make that out even blown up. Is that 0.86? And I know there is a reason for my line of thought, even if a weapon can go below 1.0 speeds, and it's probably because of Flurry charges.
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For auto attacks only, flurry charges used are negated by the flurries created by the frequent attacks. 3.0/1.5 - Your OH will use 2/3rds of your flurry charges but it will also create 2/3rds of your auto attack crits.
On a more advanced level, the faster offhand will use more of your flurry charges created by specials (and actually your MH will miss less due to HS usage and thus create more flurry charges). It would be tough to calculate the expected DPS loss if your Flurry is up most of the time regardless. Fast attack speed does create more even rage generation for more efficient/easier cycling that may pick you up some DPS from a playability stand point.
Furthermore, your fast OH gains more from +damage buffs like most sharpening stones, Gift of Arthas (My personal favorite), and hemo should one of your rogues be using that for some reason. You might also get more JoL and more regular imp LotP procs.
There's a lot that goes into oh speed, enough that it would be hard to concretely argue one way or the other.
On a more advanced level, the faster offhand will use more of your flurry charges created by specials (and actually your MH will miss less due to HS usage and thus create more flurry charges). It would be tough to calculate the expected DPS loss if your Flurry is up most of the time regardless. Fast attack speed does create more even rage generation for more efficient/easier cycling that may pick you up some DPS from a playability stand point.
Furthermore, your fast OH gains more from +damage buffs like most sharpening stones, Gift of Arthas (My personal favorite), and hemo should one of your rogues be using that for some reason. You might also get more JoL and more regular imp LotP procs.
There's a lot that goes into oh speed, enough that it would be hard to concretely argue one way or the other.
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Originally Posted by Grymm
On a more advanced level, the faster offhand will use more of your flurry charges created by specials (and actually your MH will miss less due to HS usage and thus create more flurry charges).
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Originally Posted by Hidden
Why should your MH create more Flurry charges when using HS?
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Originally Posted by Apate
HS can't glance, glances can't crit?
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Edit: Since I don't know the exact chance to glance and miss a level 73 boss I simply took the worst values I heard of, so you probably need even more Crit than stated above.
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Originally Posted by Apate
HS can't glance, glances can't crit?
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Originally Posted by Natural
Yes. AFAIK there is no weapon speed limit. I've seen my offhand drop to around 0.4, but I'll have to pull up a screenshot when I get home.
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(was a bit slow to take a target after getting the buffs, that's why the shaman is a 'bit' ahead, him pushing 7000+dps there might also be a factor :P )
Edited onPatch 2.1.3
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Originally Posted by Graul
Can weapon speed drop below 1.0?
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Heres a screenshot:
Last edited by madrussian : 08/30/07 at 7:26 PM.
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Originally Posted by Mezzlock
yep, weaponspeed seems to have no lower limit
(was a bit slow to take a target after getting the buffs, that's why the shaman is a 'bit' ahead, him pushing 7000+dps there might also be a factor :P ) |
Question for you, what is the 'unholy frenzy' buff in that screenshot?
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Originally Posted by madrussian
Question for you, what is the 'unholy frenzy' buff in that screenshot?
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Thanks, I knew what the buff was, but thottbot didnt show where its from.
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Originally Posted by Machinator
Nice update to the sim.
Couple bugs I notice. Imp Berserker stance isnt affecting the AP proc, and possibly not at all. The combat log still has the typo where Crit is spelled Cri :P More suggestions: -unleashed rage(shaman) is another 10% AP buff -time stamp combat log I dont suppose you would let anyone see your code at some point? |
unleashed will not added ...too difficult to model a talent that base on shammy cri ..lol
time stamp added
i will not update it for next 2 days ..its weekend for me (in HK)
decided to grab a talon after i promised myself i wouldnt 
they are dropping like candy for us at the moment 3 talon in 3 kills in a row.
plus next week its getting buffed in the 2.2 patch
http://www.worldofraids.com/news/ite.../ssc/talon.jpg <new stats dunno if its better than s2 now but its at least on par.
they are dropping like candy for us at the moment 3 talon in 3 kills in a row.
plus next week its getting buffed in the 2.2 patch
http://www.worldofraids.com/news/ite.../ssc/talon.jpg <new stats dunno if its better than s2 now but its at least on par.
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Originally Posted by Mezzlock
yep, weaponspeed seems to have no lower limit
(was a bit slow to take a target after getting the buffs, that's why the shaman is a 'bit' ahead, him pushing 7000+dps there might also be a factor :P ) |
Unholy Frenzy from Necromancers in Hyjal, it's visible in the buff list to the right of the screen.
|
Originally Posted by Amorpheus
Unholy Frenzy from Necromancers in Hyjal, it's visible in the buff list to the right of the screen.
|
that buff is about the only thing in hyjal that's actually fun =) and it makes all those packs oh so easy
Slam
Im currently running a 2h Fury build for raid dpsing. Our group hasnt progressed very far yet (Downing Gruul and clearing Kara weekly) Started on TK/SSC.
My gear is therefor still rather crappy (hope to grab 4 upgrades next week) so my dps is also very much lacking. As such im trying to improve as much as possible and theorycrafting to improve.
Now to get back on topic, would it be possible to make a viable build where slamspam is doable & effective? My knowledge about slam is limited and i think im not fully understanding it yet.
But basicly if i sum up its something like this (for improved slam):
- When slam lands autoswing is reset.
- When slam lands GCD is triggered (1,5s)
- When slam lands autoswing has -1s reduction.
Can anybody point out to me if something is incorrect here?
So my question is, would it be possible to get a build where you can continuosly spam slam after GCD while ensuring that your weapon autoswing has already taken place? And if so what speed would that weapon need to be at for it to be possible, and what speed would be optimal? My math isnt great but im pretty sure a formula can be derived so as to calculate the exact weapon speed that would provide the optimal damage, i just cant come up with it.
So basicly what im looking for is a way to find out if Auto,Slam,[GCD],Auto,Slam,[GCD]...would be possible and viable.
My gear is therefor still rather crappy (hope to grab 4 upgrades next week) so my dps is also very much lacking. As such im trying to improve as much as possible and theorycrafting to improve.
Now to get back on topic, would it be possible to make a viable build where slamspam is doable & effective? My knowledge about slam is limited and i think im not fully understanding it yet.
But basicly if i sum up its something like this (for improved slam):
- When slam lands autoswing is reset.
- When slam lands GCD is triggered (1,5s)
- When slam lands autoswing has -1s reduction.
Can anybody point out to me if something is incorrect here?
So my question is, would it be possible to get a build where you can continuosly spam slam after GCD while ensuring that your weapon autoswing has already taken place? And if so what speed would that weapon need to be at for it to be possible, and what speed would be optimal? My math isnt great but im pretty sure a formula can be derived so as to calculate the exact weapon speed that would provide the optimal damage, i just cant come up with it.
So basicly what im looking for is a way to find out if Auto,Slam,[GCD],Auto,Slam,[GCD]...would be possible and viable.
|
Originally Posted by Mezzlock
yep, weaponspeed seems to have no lower limit
(was a bit slow to take a target after getting the buffs, that's why the shaman is a 'bit' ahead, him pushing 7000+dps there might also be a factor :P ) |
Oh man i have tears running down my chin!
Thats so fucking insane, but i dont think i could see something like that on my own...
Nice damage! Thumbs up!
Greetz
Edited onPatch 2.1.3
|
Originally Posted by Janus00
Im currently running a 2h Fury build for raid dpsing. Our group hasnt progressed very far yet (Downing Gruul and clearing Kara weekly) Started on TK/SSC.
My gear is therefor still rather crappy (hope to grab 4 upgrades next week) so my dps is also very much lacking. As such im trying to improve as much as possible and theorycrafting to improve. Now to get back on topic, would it be possible to make a viable build where slamspam is doable & effective? My knowledge about slam is limited and i think im not fully understanding it yet. But basicly if i sum up its something like this (for improved slam): - When slam lands autoswing is reset. - When slam lands GCD is triggered (1,5s) - When slam lands autoswing has -1s reduction. Can anybody point out to me if something is incorrect here? So my question is, would it be possible to get a build where you can continuosly spam slam after GCD while ensuring that your weapon autoswing has already taken place? And if so what speed would that weapon need to be at for it to be possible, and what speed would be optimal? My math isnt great but im pretty sure a formula can be derived so as to calculate the exact weapon speed that would provide the optimal damage, i just cant come up with it. So basicly what im looking for is a way to find out if Auto,Slam,[GCD],Auto,Slam,[GCD]...would be possible and viable. |
The typical Slam rotation is or, depending on your rage generation after the windfury nerf, was Auto>Slam>Instant>Auto. For it to work perfectly you want the slowest weapon you can get due to Slam not being normalized and if possible get it down to 2.5 Speed with active Flurry, meaning unflurried 3.125 Speed with 5/5 Flurry or 2.875 with 3/5 Flurry.
Last edited by Hidden : 08/31/07 at 7:47 AM.
Righto! Thanks for the reply !
So basicly :
Auto>Slam>MS>Auto>Slam>WW(If AoE is possible else Hamstring)>Auto>Slam>MS>Auto>Slam>(Hamstring?)
Basicly there are three instants MS,WW and Hamstring right?
So if AoE isnt possible due to CC issues, you substitute WW by Hamstring and for every 4th instant you also use Hamstring ?
Am i understanding this correct?
So basicly :
Auto>Slam>MS>Auto>Slam>WW(If AoE is possible else Hamstring)>Auto>Slam>MS>Auto>Slam>(Hamstring?)
Basicly there are three instants MS,WW and Hamstring right?
So if AoE isnt possible due to CC issues, you substitute WW by Hamstring and for every 4th instant you also use Hamstring ?
Am i understanding this correct?
I typed too much previously and somehow tied flurry to hit and not crit. HS will not crit more often than white swings so will not effect flurry uptime. Too many thoughts; too small a brain.
Not trying to derail the thread but everytime someone brings up the haste rating nerf and the dragonstrike it seems like people just pass the question up.
I am currently clearing 5/6 SSC and 2/4 TK. Ive been a BS for ages now, currently I am using the T1 BS chest and was thinking about upgrading it to t3 because I have the nethers available. I personally dont believe it would be a great idea seeing that Vashj drops a beast chest and I could grab the rogue chest from FLK if need be.
I was wondering that with the haste rating nerf and T5 weapon buff will I notice a great improvement if I craft a dragonstrike over my Talon of Alar. Thank you in advance.
I am currently clearing 5/6 SSC and 2/4 TK. Ive been a BS for ages now, currently I am using the T1 BS chest and was thinking about upgrading it to t3 because I have the nethers available. I personally dont believe it would be a great idea seeing that Vashj drops a beast chest and I could grab the rogue chest from FLK if need be.
I was wondering that with the haste rating nerf and T5 weapon buff will I notice a great improvement if I craft a dragonstrike over my Talon of Alar. Thank you in advance.
I'm pretty sure they're going to be nerfing haste exactly because of situations like that. And I don't mean the numerical haste value conversions, but the stacking of them.
|
Originally Posted by oraclephenom
Not trying to derail the thread but everytime someone brings up the haste rating nerf and the dragonstrike it seems like people just pass the question up.
I am currently clearing 5/6 SSC and 2/4 TK. Ive been a BS for ages now, currently I am using the T1 BS chest and was thinking about upgrading it to t3 because I have the nethers available. I personally dont believe it would be a great idea seeing that Vashj drops a beast chest and I could grab the rogue chest from FLK if need be. I was wondering that with the haste rating nerf and T5 weapon buff will I notice a great improvement if I craft a dragonstrike over my Talon of Alar. Thank you in advance. |
I was wondering the same thing as i have a talon now and a dst, I just cant see dragonstrike being the best anymore. One point though is that even though it is getting nerfed, haste will always stack every time u get better gear so thats one good thing plus it will stack with dst so im sure it will be stil be good. Dont know if it will be the best though.
|
Originally Posted by Janus00
So basicly :
Auto>Slam>MS>Auto>Slam>WW(If AoE is possible else Hamstring)>Auto>Slam>MS>Auto>Slam>(Hamstring?) |
wanting to try a 2handed Fury build for the first time. The Windfury Nerf came after said
post was made, so the need to Spamstring is less urgent than it used to be.
---
Your cycle will be based around the following 3 Abilities:
- Bloodthirst, Instant, 30 Rage, 6s cooldown
- Whirlwind, Instant, 25 Rage, 8s cooldown
- Slam, 0.5s Cast, 15 Rage, no cooldown (resets your Swing Timer)
The goal of your Cycle will be to do as much damage as you can, basically you should try to achieve the following:
- Keep Battleshout up
- Keep Rampage up
- Use Bloodthirst and Whirlwind _everytime_ they're available
- Use Slam to get rid of excess Rage when BT and WW are not available
(- Use Hamstring to get the chance of Flurry or Windfury Procs when BT and WW are not
available and you just slammed.)
The main constraint of your Cycle will be:
- The Global Cooldown (1.5s)
- Your Weapon Swing Timer
I'll try to illustrate a 2handed Fury DPS cycle, based on the assumptions that
Rampage is up, you have infinite Rage and you're permaflurried with a resulting
2.5s Weaponspeed.
The following diagram shows 25 seconds of a ideal 2handed fury cycle:
The ruler at the bottom shows the timescale in a 0.5s interval.
The cycle is very dense, in those 25 seconds you will score 23 damaging hits on
your target.
The important things in this cycle are: optimal usage of the Global Cooldown
and timing slams to start right after an auto-attack landed, so they dont interfere
with your Weapon Swing Timer and hence your Rage generation. Of course,
due to lag you are not likely to achieve a perfect cycle, this is a mere outline
of what you should be trying to achieve.
Edited onPatch 2.1.3
| HS will not crit more often than white swings so will not effect flurry uptime |
So instead of:
auto crit
auto crit
auti glance
you would get:
auto crit
auto crit
Heroic crit
|
Use Hamstring to get the chance of Flurry or Windfury Procs when BT and WW are not available and you just slammed |
Last edited by Graul : 09/01/07 at 6:27 PM.
|
Originally Posted by oraclephenom
Not trying to derail the thread but everytime someone brings up the haste rating nerf and the dragonstrike it seems like people just pass the question up.
I am currently clearing 5/6 SSC and 2/4 TK. Ive been a BS for ages now, currently I am using the T1 BS chest and was thinking about upgrading it to t3 because I have the nethers available. I personally dont believe it would be a great idea seeing that Vashj drops a beast chest and I could grab the rogue chest from FLK if need be. I was wondering that with the haste rating nerf and T5 weapon buff will I notice a great improvement if I craft a dragonstrike over my Talon of Alar. Thank you in advance. |
|
Originally Posted by Brissa
The chestplate from Vashj is actually pretty poor and you should definitely try to take the chestplate from FLK instead. In fact when we got the Vashj chestplate on our first kill it went to a tank because no one else wanted it.
|
|
Originally Posted by Graul
Neither would even be an upgrade over the Merciless Gladiator's would they? And if not, what's the next "real" upgrade, the Heartshatter?
|
Edited onPatch 2.1.3
I'm guessing the "best" fury warrior chest in the game would be Midnight Chestguard (off Archimonde, when socketed correctly), right?
Last edited by Gokey : 09/02/07 at 12:10 AM.
|
Originally Posted by Apate
HS can't glance, glances can't crit?
|
|
Originally Posted by Natural
Yes. AFAIK there is no weapon speed limit. I've seen my offhand drop to around 0.4, but I'll have to pull up a screenshot when I get home.
|
(was a bit slow to take a target after getting the buffs, that's why the shaman is a 'bit' ahead, him pushing 7000+dps there might also be a factor :P )
Edited onPatch 2.1.3
|
Originally Posted by Graul
Can weapon speed drop below 1.0?
|
Heres a screenshot:
Last edited by madrussian : 08/30/07 at 7:26 PM.
|
Originally Posted by Mezzlock
yep, weaponspeed seems to have no lower limit
(was a bit slow to take a target after getting the buffs, that's why the shaman is a 'bit' ahead, him pushing 7000+dps there might also be a factor :P ) |
Question for you, what is the 'unholy frenzy' buff in that screenshot?
|
Originally Posted by madrussian
Question for you, what is the 'unholy frenzy' buff in that screenshot?
|
Thanks, I knew what the buff was, but thottbot didnt show where its from.
|
Originally Posted by Machinator
Nice update to the sim.
Couple bugs I notice. Imp Berserker stance isnt affecting the AP proc, and possibly not at all. The combat log still has the typo where Crit is spelled Cri :P More suggestions: -unleashed rage(shaman) is another 10% AP buff -time stamp combat log I dont suppose you would let anyone see your code at some point? |
unleashed will not added ...too difficult to model a talent that base on shammy cri ..lol
time stamp added
i will not update it for next 2 days ..its weekend for me (in HK)
decided to grab a talon after i promised myself i wouldnt
they are dropping like candy for us at the moment 3 talon in 3 kills in a row.
plus next week its getting buffed in the 2.2 patch
http://www.worldofraids.com/news/ite.../ssc/talon.jpg <new stats dunno if its better than s2 now but its at least on par.
they are dropping like candy for us at the moment 3 talon in 3 kills in a row.
plus next week its getting buffed in the 2.2 patch
http://www.worldofraids.com/news/ite.../ssc/talon.jpg <new stats dunno if its better than s2 now but its at least on par.
|
Originally Posted by Mezzlock
yep, weaponspeed seems to have no lower limit
(was a bit slow to take a target after getting the buffs, that's why the shaman is a 'bit' ahead, him pushing 7000+dps there might also be a factor :P ) |
Unholy Frenzy from Necromancers in Hyjal, it's visible in the buff list to the right of the screen.
|
Originally Posted by Amorpheus
Unholy Frenzy from Necromancers in Hyjal, it's visible in the buff list to the right of the screen.
|
that buff is about the only thing in hyjal that's actually fun =) and it makes all those packs oh so easy
Slam
Im currently running a 2h Fury build for raid dpsing. Our group hasnt progressed very far yet (Downing Gruul and clearing Kara weekly) Started on TK/SSC.
My gear is therefor still rather crappy (hope to grab 4 upgrades next week) so my dps is also very much lacking. As such im trying to improve as much as possible and theorycrafting to improve.
Now to get back on topic, would it be possible to make a viable build where slamspam is doable & effective? My knowledge about slam is limited and i think im not fully understanding it yet.
But basicly if i sum up its something like this (for improved slam):
- When slam lands autoswing is reset.
- When slam lands GCD is triggered (1,5s)
- When slam lands autoswing has -1s reduction.
Can anybody point out to me if something is incorrect here?
So my question is, would it be possible to get a build where you can continuosly spam slam after GCD while ensuring that your weapon autoswing has already taken place? And if so what speed would that weapon need to be at for it to be possible, and what speed would be optimal? My math isnt great but im pretty sure a formula can be derived so as to calculate the exact weapon speed that would provide the optimal damage, i just cant come up with it.
So basicly what im looking for is a way to find out if Auto,Slam,[GCD],Auto,Slam,[GCD]...would be possible and viable.
My gear is therefor still rather crappy (hope to grab 4 upgrades next week) so my dps is also very much lacking. As such im trying to improve as much as possible and theorycrafting to improve.
Now to get back on topic, would it be possible to make a viable build where slamspam is doable & effective? My knowledge about slam is limited and i think im not fully understanding it yet.
But basicly if i sum up its something like this (for improved slam):
- When slam lands autoswing is reset.
- When slam lands GCD is triggered (1,5s)
- When slam lands autoswing has -1s reduction.
Can anybody point out to me if something is incorrect here?
So my question is, would it be possible to get a build where you can continuosly spam slam after GCD while ensuring that your weapon autoswing has already taken place? And if so what speed would that weapon need to be at for it to be possible, and what speed would be optimal? My math isnt great but im pretty sure a formula can be derived so as to calculate the exact weapon speed that would provide the optimal damage, i just cant come up with it.
So basicly what im looking for is a way to find out if Auto,Slam,[GCD],Auto,Slam,[GCD]...would be possible and viable.
|
Originally Posted by Mezzlock
yep, weaponspeed seems to have no lower limit
(was a bit slow to take a target after getting the buffs, that's why the shaman is a 'bit' ahead, him pushing 7000+dps there might also be a factor :P ) |
Oh man i have tears running down my chin!
Thats so fucking insane, but i dont think i could see something like that on my own...
Nice damage! Thumbs up!
Greetz
Edited onPatch 2.1.3
|
Originally Posted by Janus00
Im currently running a 2h Fury build for raid dpsing. Our group hasnt progressed very far yet (Downing Gruul and clearing Kara weekly) Started on TK/SSC.
My gear is therefor still rather crappy (hope to grab 4 upgrades next week) so my dps is also very much lacking. As such im trying to improve as much as possible and theorycrafting to improve. Now to get back on topic, would it be possible to make a viable build where slamspam is doable & effective? My knowledge about slam is limited and i think im not fully understanding it yet. But basicly if i sum up its something like this (for improved slam): - When slam lands autoswing is reset. - When slam lands GCD is triggered (1,5s) - When slam lands autoswing has -1s reduction. Can anybody point out to me if something is incorrect here? So my question is, would it be possible to get a build where you can continuosly spam slam after GCD while ensuring that your weapon autoswing has already taken place? And if so what speed would that weapon need to be at for it to be possible, and what speed would be optimal? My math isnt great but im pretty sure a formula can be derived so as to calculate the exact weapon speed that would provide the optimal damage, i just cant come up with it. So basicly what im looking for is a way to find out if Auto,Slam,[GCD],Auto,Slam,[GCD]...would be possible and viable. |
The typical Slam rotation is or, depending on your rage generation after the windfury nerf, was Auto>Slam>Instant>Auto. For it to work perfectly you want the slowest weapon you can get due to Slam not being normalized and if possible get it down to 2.5 Speed with active Flurry, meaning unflurried 3.125 Speed with 5/5 Flurry or 2.875 with 3/5 Flurry.
Last edited by Hidden : 08/31/07 at 7:47 AM.
Righto! Thanks for the reply !
So basicly :
Auto>Slam>MS>Auto>Slam>WW(If AoE is possible else Hamstring)>Auto>Slam>MS>Auto>Slam>(Hamstring?)
Basicly there are three instants MS,WW and Hamstring right?
So if AoE isnt possible due to CC issues, you substitute WW by Hamstring and for every 4th instant you also use Hamstring ?
Am i understanding this correct?
So basicly :
Auto>Slam>MS>Auto>Slam>WW(If AoE is possible else Hamstring)>Auto>Slam>MS>Auto>Slam>(Hamstring?)
Basicly there are three instants MS,WW and Hamstring right?
So if AoE isnt possible due to CC issues, you substitute WW by Hamstring and for every 4th instant you also use Hamstring ?
Am i understanding this correct?
I typed too much previously and somehow tied flurry to hit and not crit. HS will not crit more often than white swings so will not effect flurry uptime. Too many thoughts; too small a brain.
Not trying to derail the thread but everytime someone brings up the haste rating nerf and the dragonstrike it seems like people just pass the question up.
I am currently clearing 5/6 SSC and 2/4 TK. Ive been a BS for ages now, currently I am using the T1 BS chest and was thinking about upgrading it to t3 because I have the nethers available. I personally dont believe it would be a great idea seeing that Vashj drops a beast chest and I could grab the rogue chest from FLK if need be.
I was wondering that with the haste rating nerf and T5 weapon buff will I notice a great improvement if I craft a dragonstrike over my Talon of Alar. Thank you in advance.
I am currently clearing 5/6 SSC and 2/4 TK. Ive been a BS for ages now, currently I am using the T1 BS chest and was thinking about upgrading it to t3 because I have the nethers available. I personally dont believe it would be a great idea seeing that Vashj drops a beast chest and I could grab the rogue chest from FLK if need be.
I was wondering that with the haste rating nerf and T5 weapon buff will I notice a great improvement if I craft a dragonstrike over my Talon of Alar. Thank you in advance.
I'm pretty sure they're going to be nerfing haste exactly because of situations like that. And I don't mean the numerical haste value conversions, but the stacking of them.
|
Originally Posted by oraclephenom
Not trying to derail the thread but everytime someone brings up the haste rating nerf and the dragonstrike it seems like people just pass the question up.
I am currently clearing 5/6 SSC and 2/4 TK. Ive been a BS for ages now, currently I am using the T1 BS chest and was thinking about upgrading it to t3 because I have the nethers available. I personally dont believe it would be a great idea seeing that Vashj drops a beast chest and I could grab the rogue chest from FLK if need be. I was wondering that with the haste rating nerf and T5 weapon buff will I notice a great improvement if I craft a dragonstrike over my Talon of Alar. Thank you in advance. |
I was wondering the same thing as i have a talon now and a dst, I just cant see dragonstrike being the best anymore. One point though is that even though it is getting nerfed, haste will always stack every time u get better gear so thats one good thing plus it will stack with dst so im sure it will be stil be good. Dont know if it will be the best though.
|
Originally Posted by Janus00
So basicly :
Auto>Slam>MS>Auto>Slam>WW(If AoE is possible else Hamstring)>Auto>Slam>MS>Auto>Slam>(Hamstring?) |
wanting to try a 2handed Fury build for the first time. The Windfury Nerf came after said
post was made, so the need to Spamstring is less urgent than it used to be.
---
Your cycle will be based around the following 3 Abilities:
- Bloodthirst, Instant, 30 Rage, 6s cooldown
- Whirlwind, Instant, 25 Rage, 8s cooldown
- Slam, 0.5s Cast, 15 Rage, no cooldown (resets your Swing Timer)
The goal of your Cycle will be to do as much damage as you can, basically you should try to achieve the following:
- Keep Battleshout up
- Keep Rampage up
- Use Bloodthirst and Whirlwind _everytime_ they're available
- Use Slam to get rid of excess Rage when BT and WW are not available
(- Use Hamstring to get the chance of Flurry or Windfury Procs when BT and WW are not
available and you just slammed.)
The main constraint of your Cycle will be:
- The Global Cooldown (1.5s)
- Your Weapon Swing Timer
I'll try to illustrate a 2handed Fury DPS cycle, based on the assumptions that
Rampage is up, you have infinite Rage and you're permaflurried with a resulting
2.5s Weaponspeed.
The following diagram shows 25 seconds of a ideal 2handed fury cycle:
The ruler at the bottom shows the timescale in a 0.5s interval.
The cycle is very dense, in those 25 seconds you will score 23 damaging hits on
your target.
The important things in this cycle are: optimal usage of the Global Cooldown
and timing slams to start right after an auto-attack landed, so they dont interfere
with your Weapon Swing Timer and hence your Rage generation. Of course,
due to lag you are not likely to achieve a perfect cycle, this is a mere outline
of what you should be trying to achieve.
Edited onPatch 2.1.3
| HS will not crit more often than white swings so will not effect flurry uptime |
So instead of:
auto crit
auto crit
auti glance
you would get:
auto crit
auto crit
Heroic crit
|
Use Hamstring to get the chance of Flurry or Windfury Procs when BT and WW are not available and you just slammed |
Last edited by Graul : 09/01/07 at 6:27 PM.
|
Originally Posted by oraclephenom
Not trying to derail the thread but everytime someone brings up the haste rating nerf and the dragonstrike it seems like people just pass the question up.
I am currently clearing 5/6 SSC and 2/4 TK. Ive been a BS for ages now, currently I am using the T1 BS chest and was thinking about upgrading it to t3 because I have the nethers available. I personally dont believe it would be a great idea seeing that Vashj drops a beast chest and I could grab the rogue chest from FLK if need be. I was wondering that with the haste rating nerf and T5 weapon buff will I notice a great improvement if I craft a dragonstrike over my Talon of Alar. Thank you in advance. |
|
Originally Posted by Brissa
The chestplate from Vashj is actually pretty poor and you should definitely try to take the chestplate from FLK instead. In fact when we got the Vashj chestplate on our first kill it went to a tank because no one else wanted it.
|
|
Originally Posted by Graul
Neither would even be an upgrade over the Merciless Gladiator's would they? And if not, what's the next "real" upgrade, the Heartshatter?
|
Edited onPatch 2.1.3
I'm guessing the "best" fury warrior chest in the game would be Midnight Chestguard (off Archimonde, when socketed correctly), right?
Last edited by Gokey : 09/02/07 at 12:10 AM.
|
Originally Posted by Gokey
I'm guessing the "best" fury warrior chest in the game would be Midnight Chestguard (off Archimonde, when socketed correctly), right?
|
|
Originally Posted by Ren
<--- Yep. (Logged out in my fury gear for a bit)
|
|
Originally Posted by hawkk
Yes sir. Screenshot from a Leotheras kill for kicks:
 |
i noticed you have greater blessing of salvation here instead of greater blessing of light. any tips on how i could convince my raiding pallies to give me greater salv instead of light? right now they just give the warriors greater light and i have a macro to whisper the pally buffing light to give me a 5 min salv. kind of annoying if he dies or runs low on mana (i give him crap everytime he does run low on mana because hes a freakin pally)
EDIT: i also noticed you have martial gauntlets off gruul with some T5. are the gruul gloves better than T4 dps? im hoving at about 200 hit rating now so i figured the extra hit couldnt hurt
It really just depends on how many Warrior tanks you have at any given event. If only one is ever tanking anything, Greater BoS can be cast so that it hits you and BoL can be single cast every now and then on the target (tank) the Paladin is mostly likely on the majority of the fight. There's that and also taking four Paladins. The upcoming patch will fix this problem for the most part though.
I'm not going to wear leather at this stage of the game over plate and give up 1300 armor for a very slight, tiny upgrade. In the past I always had to wear leather for stats....Once you have full plate you never want to go back.
|
Originally Posted by Thundale
I'm not going to wear leather at this stage of the game over plate and give up 1300 armor for a very slight, tiny upgrade. In the past I always had to wear leather for stats....Once you have full plate you never want to go back.
|
Yes, gloves off gruul are MUCH better then t4, and some would say better then t5..maybe even t6.
[Gauntlets of Martial Perfection] are pretty comparable to [Destroyer Gauntlets], and in my opinion better then T5, due to socket potential.
However [Onslaught Gauntlets] I think wins out due to -armor, though again Gauntlets of Martial Perfection come close because of socket potential, 2x +10 str gems in there = 56str, or 112AP, Tier 6 = 102 AP max, same crit, but -91 armor.
However [Onslaught Gauntlets] I think wins out due to -armor, though again Gauntlets of Martial Perfection come close because of socket potential, 2x +10 str gems in there = 56str, or 112AP, Tier 6 = 102 AP max, same crit, but -91 armor.
At the moment, my DPS gear is far better than my tanking gear, but due to a shortage of tanks (and an abundance of warriors who pretend to dps, but actually get out DPS'd by our druid tanks) means that I can't go fury to help our DPS out.
The gloves from Gruul are very good due to the sockets- this is an annoying fact with T4-5 stuff, the lack of sockets often makes kara loot far better than late game stuff, provided you're willing to spend a couple hundred gold to max the gear out.
On another note, for DPS race fights such as gruul and void reaver, I have to switch to DPS gear fairly regularly, as we go straight from HKM, where we need 4 tanks, to gruul, which needs just 3. For this reason I'd like to know any ways possible to boost my DPS while remaining prot specced- clearly it's impractical for me to respec back and forth to fury/prot to suit our raid needs, as I can't grind the gold in prot, my primary spec.
The gloves from Gruul are very good due to the sockets- this is an annoying fact with T4-5 stuff, the lack of sockets often makes kara loot far better than late game stuff, provided you're willing to spend a couple hundred gold to max the gear out.
On another note, for DPS race fights such as gruul and void reaver, I have to switch to DPS gear fairly regularly, as we go straight from HKM, where we need 4 tanks, to gruul, which needs just 3. For this reason I'd like to know any ways possible to boost my DPS while remaining prot specced- clearly it's impractical for me to respec back and forth to fury/prot to suit our raid needs, as I can't grind the gold in prot, my primary spec.
Edited onPatch 2.1.3
With the 2.2 haste nerf, I'm re-evaluating potion options.
[Mighty Rage Potion] For some reason it's not linking:
Classes: Warrior
Requires Level 46
Use: Increases Rage by 45-75 and increases Strength by 60 for 20 seconds.
[Insane Strength Potion]
[Haste Potion]
Mighty Rage Potions seem extremely cost-effective and rather comparable to the more expensive TBC options. What would you use?
[Mighty Rage Potion] For some reason it's not linking:
Classes: Warrior
Requires Level 46
Use: Increases Rage by 45-75 and increases Strength by 60 for 20 seconds.
[Insane Strength Potion]
[Haste Potion]
Mighty Rage Potions seem extremely cost-effective and rather comparable to the more expensive TBC options. What would you use?
Last edited by Ren : 09/02/07 at 5:30 AM.
|
Originally Posted by Ren
With the 2.2 haste nerf, I'm re-evaluating potion options.
[Mighty Rage Potion] For some reason it's not linking: Classes: Warrior Requires Level 46 Use: Increases Rage by 45-75 and increases Strength by 60 for 20 seconds. [Insane Strength Potion] [Haste Potion] Mighty Rage Potions seem extremely cost-effective and rather comparable to the more expensive TBC options. What would you use? |
I usually cringe when I read a "am I ready" question but I am at a crossroads on where to go.
Currently, I have Bloodmoon (35.29% crit in battle stance with axe spec, 1954 atp without battle shout). My guild (cleared SSC, working on KT) has a good warrior who's BF-specced so I can usually go 31-30 or 20-41.
Last week though, I got my hands on a second Netherbane and I specced the typical 17-44 build for a raid. Trouble is, I did terrible. Rage was poor, crit was poor and performance was poor.
For DWing, I can hit 199 hit rating (12.62% before Precision), with 29.9% crit in zerker and 2011 attack power in zerker without Battle Shout or Rampage up.
I can get a Merciless off-hand right now and the faster off-hand might help with rage generation over the slower Netherbane.
My quandary is it worth it right now, on the cusp of HYjal/BT, to switch to DW fury with several pieces of inferior gear or stick it out with the 2hander? And if switching to DW, what baselines stats to shoot for and any tips for maximizing raid performance?
Currently, I have Bloodmoon (35.29% crit in battle stance with axe spec, 1954 atp without battle shout). My guild (cleared SSC, working on KT) has a good warrior who's BF-specced so I can usually go 31-30 or 20-41.
Last week though, I got my hands on a second Netherbane and I specced the typical 17-44 build for a raid. Trouble is, I did terrible. Rage was poor, crit was poor and performance was poor.
For DWing, I can hit 199 hit rating (12.62% before Precision), with 29.9% crit in zerker and 2011 attack power in zerker without Battle Shout or Rampage up.
I can get a Merciless off-hand right now and the faster off-hand might help with rage generation over the slower Netherbane.
My quandary is it worth it right now, on the cusp of HYjal/BT, to switch to DW fury with several pieces of inferior gear or stick it out with the 2hander? And if switching to DW, what baselines stats to shoot for and any tips for maximizing raid performance?
|
Originally Posted by Randor
Last week though, I got my hands on a second Netherbane and I specced the typical 17-44 build for a raid. Trouble is, I did terrible. Rage was poor, crit was poor and performance was poor.
For DWing, I can hit 199 hit rating (12.62% before Precision), with 29.9% crit in zerker and 2011 attack power in zerker without Battle Shout or Rampage up. I can get a Merciless off-hand right now and the faster off-hand might help with rage generation over the slower Netherbane. My quandary is it worth it right now, on the cusp of HYjal/BT, to switch to DW fury with several pieces of inferior gear or stick it out with the 2hander? And if switching to DW, what baselines stats to shoot for and any tips for maximizing raid performance? |
If you haven't messed around with a DW build for a while, it might just take you a little more practice time to get the hang of it, but personally I find it much less cumbersome than a two handed spec revolving around Slam. If you can get in 3-10 Arena games in a week, you may as well just grind out a quick off hand if you think that's the main problem. Otherwise, just go back to using your two hander and go Fury if it's easier for you to do better damage.
[quote=Randor;466997]I usually cringe when I read a "am I ready" question but I am at a crossroads on where to go.
For DWing, I can hit 199 hit rating (12.62% before Precision), with 29.9% crit in zerker and 2011 attack power in zerker without Battle Shout or Rampage up.
Your stats are perfectly balanced and very good for 17/44. More than enough hit , perfect crit and Attack Power.If you get a good group setup,you should be doing some great dps.No way you can be rage starved with that spec and a good group,except if you qued Heroic Strike every chance.
Check if you do correctly your rotations and if you are used playing this spec.
Of course netherbane isnt the best warrior weapon but its not bad either.A mercilles offhand or mhand will propably outperform a netherbane,but clearly you will not see dramatic changes.
31/30 was a very good option pre WF nerf,now its a bit outperformed by 17/44.
20/41 is better than 31/30 in my opinion and can compete with 17/44.
Its clearly a matter of playstyle,I tested all and think 17/44 is still the king on single target dps.
For DWing, I can hit 199 hit rating (12.62% before Precision), with 29.9% crit in zerker and 2011 attack power in zerker without Battle Shout or Rampage up.
Your stats are perfectly balanced and very good for 17/44. More than enough hit , perfect crit and Attack Power.If you get a good group setup,you should be doing some great dps.No way you can be rage starved with that spec and a good group,except if you qued Heroic Strike every chance.
Check if you do correctly your rotations and if you are used playing this spec.
Of course netherbane isnt the best warrior weapon but its not bad either.A mercilles offhand or mhand will propably outperform a netherbane,but clearly you will not see dramatic changes.
31/30 was a very good option pre WF nerf,now its a bit outperformed by 17/44.
20/41 is better than 31/30 in my opinion and can compete with 17/44.
Its clearly a matter of playstyle,I tested all and think 17/44 is still the king on single target dps.
What do you guys think would be better to MH, [Fang of Vashj] or [Tracker's Blade]?
I don't know if the DPS difference makes up for the speed difference and Tracker's Blade isn't in the DPS spreadsheet last time I checked. And before you say it - I know daggers suck but it's what I got.
I don't know if the DPS difference makes up for the speed difference and Tracker's Blade isn't in the DPS spreadsheet last time I checked. And before you say it - I know daggers suck but it's what I got.
what sockets for martial gauntlets? i just figured a sovereign nightseye and either a smooth or rigid dawnstone (rigid for me since im hovering at 200 hit rating).
|
Originally Posted by smor
i noticed you have greater blessing of salvation here instead of greater blessing of light. any tips on how i could convince my raiding pallies to give me greater salv instead of light? right now they just give the warriors greater light and i have a macro to whisper the pally buffing light to give me a 5 min salv. kind of annoying if he dies or runs low on mana (i give him crap everytime he does run low on mana because hes a freakin pally)
EDIT: i also noticed you have martial gauntlets off gruul with some T5. are the gruul gloves better than T4 dps? im hoving at about 200 hit rating now so i figured the extra hit couldnt hurt |
I really like Martial Perfection gloves for the customizability. I've always liked having my stats balanced, so if I swap out my boots with Surefooted for my boots with run speed, I'll throw on the Gruul gauntlets with x2 hit rating gems to keep my hit around 220.
i have the martial but i have them socketed for 33/28 spec and right now im 17/44. i think ill stick with the T4 gloves since it gives me the 4 set bonus anyways and change em out later. has anyone gotten the 4 set bonus for T4 and tried it out? i have really noticed a difference
|
Originally Posted by smor
i have the martial but i have them socketed for 33/28 spec and right now im 17/44. i think ill stick with the T4 gloves since it gives me the 4 set bonus anyways and change em out later. has anyone gotten the 4 set bonus for T4 and tried it out? i have really noticed a difference
|
You really need to maintain a certain amount of crit for fury to go anywhere, It's our second most important stat after attack power (No we are not rogues).
We need to crit to keep our "SnD" going and we need alot of it. Im generally running with a feral druid permantly in my group and hover around 37-38% crit in raids. I have rage to spare untill i hit 20%
Unbuffed i have 2035AP 29.39% crit and 223 hit rating.
We need to crit to keep our "SnD" going and we need alot of it. Im generally running with a feral druid permantly in my group and hover around 37-38% crit in raids. I have rage to spare untill i hit 20%
Unbuffed i have 2035AP 29.39% crit and 223 hit rating.
|
Originally Posted by Zyla
The 4 set bonus is border line worthless. If you're getting dodges and parrys showing up on your screen you're doing something terribly wrong. Try standing behind the mob!
|
|
Originally Posted by Paa
You really need to maintain a certain amount of crit for fury to go anywhere, It's our second most important stat after attack power (No we are not rogues).
We need to crit to keep our "SnD" going and we need alot of it. Im generally running with a feral druid permantly in my group and hover around 37-38% crit in raids. I have rage to spare untill i hit 20% Unbuffed i have 2035AP 29.39% crit and 223 hit rating. |
|
Originally Posted by lazerpewpew
Shouldn't the second most important stats be "Hit rating"? Good plates with hit rating stats can only be obtained from 25 men raid.
|
Why would you assume you want hit rating? If you read the entire thread you'd notice you were wrong. Also, plus hit plate does not only come from 25 man raids. I'd direct you to the doom plate set.
You can even get green plate with hit from quest rewards.
My guild has just entered BT and with the upcoming haste "nerf", I was wondering what sort of gear should I am to collect. I'm a blood frenzy warrior, so I know haste already brought some issues to the slam rotation. All in all, what I'm asking if there is still any outstanding haste gear I should pick, or just avoid everything for armor penetration gear or others. At first glance it doesn't seem to be anything with haste worth picking.
|
Originally Posted by Gokey
I'm guessing the "best" fury warrior chest in the game would be Midnight Chestguard (off Archimonde, when socketed correctly), right?
|
|
Originally Posted by Ren
<--- Yep. (Logged out in my fury gear for a bit)
|
|
Originally Posted by hawkk
Yes sir. Screenshot from a Leotheras kill for kicks:
|
i noticed you have greater blessing of salvation here instead of greater blessing of light. any tips on how i could convince my raiding pallies to give me greater salv instead of light? right now they just give the warriors greater light and i have a macro to whisper the pally buffing light to give me a 5 min salv. kind of annoying if he dies or runs low on mana (i give him crap everytime he does run low on mana because hes a freakin pally)
EDIT: i also noticed you have martial gauntlets off gruul with some T5. are the gruul gloves better than T4 dps? im hoving at about 200 hit rating now so i figured the extra hit couldnt hurt
It really just depends on how many Warrior tanks you have at any given event. If only one is ever tanking anything, Greater BoS can be cast so that it hits you and BoL can be single cast every now and then on the target (tank) the Paladin is mostly likely on the majority of the fight. There's that and also taking four Paladins. The upcoming patch will fix this problem for the most part though.
I'm not going to wear leather at this stage of the game over plate and give up 1300 armor for a very slight, tiny upgrade. In the past I always had to wear leather for stats....Once you have full plate you never want to go back.
|
Originally Posted by Thundale
I'm not going to wear leather at this stage of the game over plate and give up 1300 armor for a very slight, tiny upgrade. In the past I always had to wear leather for stats....Once you have full plate you never want to go back.
|
Yes, gloves off gruul are MUCH better then t4, and some would say better then t5..maybe even t6.
[Gauntlets of Martial Perfection] are pretty comparable to [Destroyer Gauntlets], and in my opinion better then T5, due to socket potential.
However [Onslaught Gauntlets] I think wins out due to -armor, though again Gauntlets of Martial Perfection come close because of socket potential, 2x +10 str gems in there = 56str, or 112AP, Tier 6 = 102 AP max, same crit, but -91 armor.
However [Onslaught Gauntlets] I think wins out due to -armor, though again Gauntlets of Martial Perfection come close because of socket potential, 2x +10 str gems in there = 56str, or 112AP, Tier 6 = 102 AP max, same crit, but -91 armor.
At the moment, my DPS gear is far better than my tanking gear, but due to a shortage of tanks (and an abundance of warriors who pretend to dps, but actually get out DPS'd by our druid tanks) means that I can't go fury to help our DPS out.
The gloves from Gruul are very good due to the sockets- this is an annoying fact with T4-5 stuff, the lack of sockets often makes kara loot far better than late game stuff, provided you're willing to spend a couple hundred gold to max the gear out.
On another note, for DPS race fights such as gruul and void reaver, I have to switch to DPS gear fairly regularly, as we go straight from HKM, where we need 4 tanks, to gruul, which needs just 3. For this reason I'd like to know any ways possible to boost my DPS while remaining prot specced- clearly it's impractical for me to respec back and forth to fury/prot to suit our raid needs, as I can't grind the gold in prot, my primary spec.
The gloves from Gruul are very good due to the sockets- this is an annoying fact with T4-5 stuff, the lack of sockets often makes kara loot far better than late game stuff, provided you're willing to spend a couple hundred gold to max the gear out.
On another note, for DPS race fights such as gruul and void reaver, I have to switch to DPS gear fairly regularly, as we go straight from HKM, where we need 4 tanks, to gruul, which needs just 3. For this reason I'd like to know any ways possible to boost my DPS while remaining prot specced- clearly it's impractical for me to respec back and forth to fury/prot to suit our raid needs, as I can't grind the gold in prot, my primary spec.
Edited onPatch 2.1.3
With the 2.2 haste nerf, I'm re-evaluating potion options.
[Mighty Rage Potion] For some reason it's not linking:
Classes: Warrior
Requires Level 46
Use: Increases Rage by 45-75 and increases Strength by 60 for 20 seconds.
[Insane Strength Potion]
[Haste Potion]
Mighty Rage Potions seem extremely cost-effective and rather comparable to the more expensive TBC options. What would you use?
[Mighty Rage Potion] For some reason it's not linking:
Classes: Warrior
Requires Level 46
Use: Increases Rage by 45-75 and increases Strength by 60 for 20 seconds.
[Insane Strength Potion]
[Haste Potion]
Mighty Rage Potions seem extremely cost-effective and rather comparable to the more expensive TBC options. What would you use?
Last edited by Ren : 09/02/07 at 5:30 AM.
|
Originally Posted by Ren
With the 2.2 haste nerf, I'm re-evaluating potion options.
[Mighty Rage Potion] For some reason it's not linking: Classes: Warrior Requires Level 46 Use: Increases Rage by 45-75 and increases Strength by 60 for 20 seconds. [Insane Strength Potion] [Haste Potion] Mighty Rage Potions seem extremely cost-effective and rather comparable to the more expensive TBC options. What would you use? |
I usually cringe when I read a "am I ready" question but I am at a crossroads on where to go.
Currently, I have Bloodmoon (35.29% crit in battle stance with axe spec, 1954 atp without battle shout). My guild (cleared SSC, working on KT) has a good warrior who's BF-specced so I can usually go 31-30 or 20-41.
Last week though, I got my hands on a second Netherbane and I specced the typical 17-44 build for a raid. Trouble is, I did terrible. Rage was poor, crit was poor and performance was poor.
For DWing, I can hit 199 hit rating (12.62% before Precision), with 29.9% crit in zerker and 2011 attack power in zerker without Battle Shout or Rampage up.
I can get a Merciless off-hand right now and the faster off-hand might help with rage generation over the slower Netherbane.
My quandary is it worth it right now, on the cusp of HYjal/BT, to switch to DW fury with several pieces of inferior gear or stick it out with the 2hander? And if switching to DW, what baselines stats to shoot for and any tips for maximizing raid performance?
Currently, I have Bloodmoon (35.29% crit in battle stance with axe spec, 1954 atp without battle shout). My guild (cleared SSC, working on KT) has a good warrior who's BF-specced so I can usually go 31-30 or 20-41.
Last week though, I got my hands on a second Netherbane and I specced the typical 17-44 build for a raid. Trouble is, I did terrible. Rage was poor, crit was poor and performance was poor.
For DWing, I can hit 199 hit rating (12.62% before Precision), with 29.9% crit in zerker and 2011 attack power in zerker without Battle Shout or Rampage up.
I can get a Merciless off-hand right now and the faster off-hand might help with rage generation over the slower Netherbane.
My quandary is it worth it right now, on the cusp of HYjal/BT, to switch to DW fury with several pieces of inferior gear or stick it out with the 2hander? And if switching to DW, what baselines stats to shoot for and any tips for maximizing raid performance?
|
Originally Posted by Randor
Last week though, I got my hands on a second Netherbane and I specced the typical 17-44 build for a raid. Trouble is, I did terrible. Rage was poor, crit was poor and performance was poor.
For DWing, I can hit 199 hit rating (12.62% before Precision), with 29.9% crit in zerker and 2011 attack power in zerker without Battle Shout or Rampage up. I can get a Merciless off-hand right now and the faster off-hand might help with rage generation over the slower Netherbane. My quandary is it worth it right now, on the cusp of HYjal/BT, to switch to DW fury with several pieces of inferior gear or stick it out with the 2hander? And if switching to DW, what baselines stats to shoot for and any tips for maximizing raid performance? |
If you haven't messed around with a DW build for a while, it might just take you a little more practice time to get the hang of it, but personally I find it much less cumbersome than a two handed spec revolving around Slam. If you can get in 3-10 Arena games in a week, you may as well just grind out a quick off hand if you think that's the main problem. Otherwise, just go back to using your two hander and go Fury if it's easier for you to do better damage.
[quote=Randor;466997]I usually cringe when I read a "am I ready" question but I am at a crossroads on where to go.
For DWing, I can hit 199 hit rating (12.62% before Precision), with 29.9% crit in zerker and 2011 attack power in zerker without Battle Shout or Rampage up.
Your stats are perfectly balanced and very good for 17/44. More than enough hit , perfect crit and Attack Power.If you get a good group setup,you should be doing some great dps.No way you can be rage starved with that spec and a good group,except if you qued Heroic Strike every chance.
Check if you do correctly your rotations and if you are used playing this spec.
Of course netherbane isnt the best warrior weapon but its not bad either.A mercilles offhand or mhand will propably outperform a netherbane,but clearly you will not see dramatic changes.
31/30 was a very good option pre WF nerf,now its a bit outperformed by 17/44.
20/41 is better than 31/30 in my opinion and can compete with 17/44.
Its clearly a matter of playstyle,I tested all and think 17/44 is still the king on single target dps.
For DWing, I can hit 199 hit rating (12.62% before Precision), with 29.9% crit in zerker and 2011 attack power in zerker without Battle Shout or Rampage up.
Your stats are perfectly balanced and very good for 17/44. More than enough hit , perfect crit and Attack Power.If you get a good group setup,you should be doing some great dps.No way you can be rage starved with that spec and a good group,except if you qued Heroic Strike every chance.
Check if you do correctly your rotations and if you are used playing this spec.
Of course netherbane isnt the best warrior weapon but its not bad either.A mercilles offhand or mhand will propably outperform a netherbane,but clearly you will not see dramatic changes.
31/30 was a very good option pre WF nerf,now its a bit outperformed by 17/44.
20/41 is better than 31/30 in my opinion and can compete with 17/44.
Its clearly a matter of playstyle,I tested all and think 17/44 is still the king on single target dps.
What do you guys think would be better to MH, [Fang of Vashj] or [Tracker's Blade]?
I don't know if the DPS difference makes up for the speed difference and Tracker's Blade isn't in the DPS spreadsheet last time I checked. And before you say it - I know daggers suck but it's what I got.
I don't know if the DPS difference makes up for the speed difference and Tracker's Blade isn't in the DPS spreadsheet last time I checked. And before you say it - I know daggers suck but it's what I got.
what sockets for martial gauntlets? i just figured a sovereign nightseye and either a smooth or rigid dawnstone (rigid for me since im hovering at 200 hit rating).
|
Originally Posted by smor
i noticed you have greater blessing of salvation here instead of greater blessing of light. any tips on how i could convince my raiding pallies to give me greater salv instead of light? right now they just give the warriors greater light and i have a macro to whisper the pally buffing light to give me a 5 min salv. kind of annoying if he dies or runs low on mana (i give him crap everytime he does run low on mana because hes a freakin pally)
EDIT: i also noticed you have martial gauntlets off gruul with some T5. are the gruul gloves better than T4 dps? im hoving at about 200 hit rating now so i figured the extra hit couldnt hurt |
I really like Martial Perfection gloves for the customizability. I've always liked having my stats balanced, so if I swap out my boots with Surefooted for my boots with run speed, I'll throw on the Gruul gauntlets with x2 hit rating gems to keep my hit around 220.
i have the martial but i have them socketed for 33/28 spec and right now im 17/44. i think ill stick with the T4 gloves since it gives me the 4 set bonus anyways and change em out later. has anyone gotten the 4 set bonus for T4 and tried it out? i have really noticed a difference
|
Originally Posted by smor
i have the martial but i have them socketed for 33/28 spec and right now im 17/44. i think ill stick with the T4 gloves since it gives me the 4 set bonus anyways and change em out later. has anyone gotten the 4 set bonus for T4 and tried it out? i have really noticed a difference
|
You really need to maintain a certain amount of crit for fury to go anywhere, It's our second most important stat after attack power (No we are not rogues).
We need to crit to keep our "SnD" going and we need alot of it. Im generally running with a feral druid permantly in my group and hover around 37-38% crit in raids. I have rage to spare untill i hit 20%
Unbuffed i have 2035AP 29.39% crit and 223 hit rating.
We need to crit to keep our "SnD" going and we need alot of it. Im generally running with a feral druid permantly in my group and hover around 37-38% crit in raids. I have rage to spare untill i hit 20%
Unbuffed i have 2035AP 29.39% crit and 223 hit rating.
|
Originally Posted by Zyla
The 4 set bonus is border line worthless. If you're getting dodges and parrys showing up on your screen you're doing something terribly wrong. Try standing behind the mob!
|
|
Originally Posted by Paa
You really need to maintain a certain amount of crit for fury to go anywhere, It's our second most important stat after attack power (No we are not rogues).
We need to crit to keep our "SnD" going and we need alot of it. Im generally running with a feral druid permantly in my group and hover around 37-38% crit in raids. I have rage to spare untill i hit 20% Unbuffed i have 2035AP 29.39% crit and 223 hit rating. |
|
Originally Posted by lazerpewpew
Shouldn't the second most important stats be "Hit rating"? Good plates with hit rating stats can only be obtained from 25 men raid.
|
Why would you assume you want hit rating? If you read the entire thread you'd notice you were wrong. Also, plus hit plate does not only come from 25 man raids. I'd direct you to the doom plate set.
You can even get green plate with hit from quest rewards.
My guild has just entered BT and with the upcoming haste "nerf", I was wondering what sort of gear should I am to collect. I'm a blood frenzy warrior, so I know haste already brought some issues to the slam rotation. All in all, what I'm asking if there is still any outstanding haste gear I should pick, or just avoid everything for armor penetration gear or others. At first glance it doesn't seem to be anything with haste worth picking.
Any thoughts on Dragonspine Trophy post 2.2 patch? In addition to the haste nerf it also has had a 20-25 second internal cooldown added to it.
I wouldn't be surprised if Dragonstrike was nerfed similarly.
I wouldn't be surprised if Dragonstrike was nerfed similarly.
There's no precedence of weapon procs having internal cooldowns, and it's doubtful Blizzard would begin implementing them now.
|
Originally Posted by Emeraude
Any thoughts on Dragonspine Trophy post 2.2 patch? In addition to the haste nerf it also has had a 20-25 second internal cooldown added to it.
I wouldn't be surprised if Dragonstrike was nerfed similarly. |
Edited onPatch 2.1.3
After hearing about the Dragonspine nerf I downloaded the new PTR client and took a tip out to Blasted Lands to do some DPS testing on the banished mobs.
Obviously these mobs can't compare to a raid boss, but in direct comparisons with other tests on the same mobs it's pretty valid.
I did my best to have the same variables in play from live to PTR - Precisely 6 minutes, NO Death Wish/Recklessness, same placement, same gear, kept 5 sunders up, kept Rampage up, kept Battle Shout up.
Live - ~1240 DPS
PTR - ~1130 DPS
Both of my weapons and one of my trinkets are pretty much purely haste based (Dragonstrike, Swiftsteel Bludgeon, Dragonspine Trophy) so the haste nerf is hitting pretty hard, though even with that hidden cooldown I can't think of very much I'd use over Dragonspine.
I'll download Procmeter and play around with it this afternoon for some further testing, but from what I glanced at on live it's really only a matter of 5-10 seconds longer between Dragonspine procs and I didn't notice any difference for Dragonstrike.
Update:
So I finally took the dive and started using WWS to make some reports so I could better see what's happening.
Just finished a set on PTR. Gear, spec, buffs, and mob are 100% identical between PTR and Live.
PTR -
Actual Start Time - 12:56:50.828
Actual Finish Time - 13:03:31.062
Total Damage - 421,163
Reported DPS - 1163
WWS Report - WWS
Actual Combat Log - http://thinkmaclaren.com/wws/PTR/WoWCombatLog.txt
Live -
Actual Start Time - 13:30:47.515
Actual Finish Time - 13:34:56.546
Total Damage - 329,664 (323818*)
Reported DPS - 1334
WWS Report - WWS
Actual Combat Log - http://thinkmaclaren.com/wws/LIVE/WoWCombatLog.txt
*There's a stray execute in the log for 5846
Also, to me these numbers seem quite low, albeit only self-buffed and keeping my own sunders up. PLEASE give me any suggestions you have!
What this means in relation to Dragonspine (more info to come!) - Average time between Procs on Live was ~15.5s, on PTR ~26.7s. That said this information may be flawed, as I am not sure whether the "Haste" being recorded in WWS is from Dragonstrike, Dragonspine, or both. From the average time I would assume it's recording just Dragonspine.
What I'm truly curious about now is seeing a comparison between Rising Tide and Dragonstrike - So if anyone has both, could you do some testing and post WWS or anything like it?
Obviously these mobs can't compare to a raid boss, but in direct comparisons with other tests on the same mobs it's pretty valid.
I did my best to have the same variables in play from live to PTR - Precisely 6 minutes, NO Death Wish/Recklessness, same placement, same gear, kept 5 sunders up, kept Rampage up, kept Battle Shout up.
Live - ~1240 DPS
PTR - ~1130 DPS
Both of my weapons and one of my trinkets are pretty much purely haste based (Dragonstrike, Swiftsteel Bludgeon, Dragonspine Trophy) so the haste nerf is hitting pretty hard, though even with that hidden cooldown I can't think of very much I'd use over Dragonspine.
I'll download Procmeter and play around with it this afternoon for some further testing, but from what I glanced at on live it's really only a matter of 5-10 seconds longer between Dragonspine procs and I didn't notice any difference for Dragonstrike.
Update:
So I finally took the dive and started using WWS to make some reports so I could better see what's happening.
Just finished a set on PTR. Gear, spec, buffs, and mob are 100% identical between PTR and Live.
PTR -
Actual Start Time - 12:56:50.828
Actual Finish Time - 13:03:31.062
Total Damage - 421,163
Reported DPS - 1163
WWS Report - WWS
Actual Combat Log - http://thinkmaclaren.com/wws/PTR/WoWCombatLog.txt
Live -
Actual Start Time - 13:30:47.515
Actual Finish Time - 13:34:56.546
Total Damage - 329,664 (323818*)
Reported DPS - 1334
WWS Report - WWS
Actual Combat Log - http://thinkmaclaren.com/wws/LIVE/WoWCombatLog.txt
*There's a stray execute in the log for 5846
Also, to me these numbers seem quite low, albeit only self-buffed and keeping my own sunders up. PLEASE give me any suggestions you have!
What this means in relation to Dragonspine (more info to come!) - Average time between Procs on Live was ~15.5s, on PTR ~26.7s. That said this information may be flawed, as I am not sure whether the "Haste" being recorded in WWS is from Dragonstrike, Dragonspine, or both. From the average time I would assume it's recording just Dragonspine.
What I'm truly curious about now is seeing a comparison between Rising Tide and Dragonstrike - So if anyone has both, could you do some testing and post WWS or anything like it?
Last edited by Kiranat : 09/03/07 at 1:56 PM.
judgeing from the nerf is dragonstrike still going to be the best weapon?
I currently have s2 mh sword, talon sword and dragonstrike all with mongoose i have dst also.
Which of the 3 will be best after the haste nerf i wonder.
I currently have s2 mh sword, talon sword and dragonstrike all with mongoose i have dst also.
Which of the 3 will be best after the haste nerf i wonder.
Edited onPatch 2.1.3
Finally got a clean Gorefiend kill with our normal MT in:
Davia - WWS
Skylla is the rogue that I'm usually jockeying with for #1 damage, he got the debuff fairly early on. The other rogue who is normally top 3 wasn't online tonight, so not a ton of competition, but still a decent raid DPS kill, not as if I got to blow a 3rd Death Wish. Tanath's TPS was off the charts, as I was able to go all out and not worry about my threat at all.
Did use 3 Haste pots, but group was Fury Warrior (me), BF Warrior, Enhancement Shaman and 2 Rogues, so no LotP or FI. Did have 2 Heroisms, one at ~90% with DW and trinket/haste pot up, but the 2nd one was around 70% with no cooldowns up, wish the shaman had saved it for 19% with DW/Reck up :-/. Would also like to get a DST before nerf to see if I could top 2k dps, but we've only ever had one and I'm 3rd in line still for it.
Davia - WWS
Skylla is the rogue that I'm usually jockeying with for #1 damage, he got the debuff fairly early on. The other rogue who is normally top 3 wasn't online tonight, so not a ton of competition, but still a decent raid DPS kill, not as if I got to blow a 3rd Death Wish. Tanath's TPS was off the charts, as I was able to go all out and not worry about my threat at all.
Did use 3 Haste pots, but group was Fury Warrior (me), BF Warrior, Enhancement Shaman and 2 Rogues, so no LotP or FI. Did have 2 Heroisms, one at ~90% with DW and trinket/haste pot up, but the 2nd one was around 70% with no cooldowns up, wish the shaman had saved it for 19% with DW/Reck up :-/. Would also like to get a DST before nerf to see if I could top 2k dps, but we've only ever had one and I'm 3rd in line still for it.
Last edited by Davia : 09/04/07 at 12:23 AM.
I've been looking over the forums for hours now, and I have yet to find the one thing I was looking for, regarding Heroic Strike (as both DPS, and tanking). The question at hand follows: Top rank Heroic Strike causes 193 additional threat when it lands, before modifiers. It seems to me that you would also gain additional threat from the damage increase, making Heroic Strike actually cause 176 threat from damage (being as damage from Heroic Strike is unmitigated), and an additional 193 from the threat component, making Heroic Strike cause a total of 369 additional threat more than a normal white strike. Is this correct? It seems to me that this is how it would probably work, but a lot of things in WoW don't make intuitive sense. It also seems entirely possible to me that the 176 unmitigated damage only causes 17 extra threat making the total threat from Heroic Strike 193... Would like confirmation, as I no longer play WoW and cannot test it on my own. I ask on behalf of a lazy tank friend.
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Originally Posted by Davia
Finally got a clean Gorefiend kill with our normal MT in:
Davia - WWS Skylla is the rogue that I'm usually jockeying with for #1 damage, he got the debuff fairly early on. The other rogue who is normally top 3 wasn't online tonight, so not a ton of competition, but still a decent raid DPS kill, not as if I got to blow a 3rd Death Wish. Tanath's TPS was off the charts, as I was able to go all out and not worry about my threat at all. Did use 3 Haste pots, but group was Fury Warrior (me), BF Warrior, Enhancement Shaman and 2 Rogues, so no LotP or FI. Did have 2 Heroisms, one at ~90% with DW and trinket/haste pot up, but the 2nd one was around 70% with no cooldowns up, wish the shaman had saved it for 19% with DW/Reck up :-/. Would also like to get a DST before nerf to see if I could top 2k dps, but we've only ever had one and I'm 3rd in line still for it. |
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Originally Posted by deusy
I've been looking over the forums for hours now, and I have yet to find the one thing I was looking for, regarding Heroic Strike (as both DPS, and tanking). The question at hand follows: Top rank Heroic Strike causes 193 additional threat when it lands, before modifiers. It seems to me that you would also gain additional threat from the damage increase, making Heroic Strike actually cause 176 threat from damage (being as damage from Heroic Strike is unmitigated), and an additional 193 from the threat component, making Heroic Strike cause a total of 369 additional threat more than a normal white strike. Is this correct? It seems to me that this is how it would probably work, but a lot of things in WoW don't make intuitive sense. It also seems entirely possible to me that the 176 unmitigated damage only causes 17 extra threat making the total threat from Heroic Strike 193... Would like confirmation, as I no longer play WoW and cannot test it on my own. I ask on behalf of a lazy tank friend.
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And its actually even more than 369 extra threat per hit since heroic strikes cant glance and as such on average does more than 176 extra damage than a white hit.
That being said this is a DPS warrior thread not a tank thread.
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Originally Posted by Brissa
That being said this is a DPS warrior thread not a tank thread. |
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Originally Posted by Repeek
I noticed you're spec'd into 2/2 Improved Overpower yet you didn't overpower once the entire fight. Would you consider moving one of those talent points into Imp Whirlwind for a smoother BT/WW cycle?
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Originally Posted by Davia
Finally got a clean Gorefiend kill with our normal MT in:
Davia - WWS Skylla is the rogue that I'm usually jockeying with for #1 damage, he got the debuff fairly early on. The other rogue who is normally top 3 wasn't online tonight, so not a ton of competition, but still a decent raid DPS kill, not as if I got to blow a 3rd Death Wish. Tanath's TPS was off the charts, as I was able to go all out and not worry about my threat at all. Did use 3 Haste pots, but group was Fury Warrior (me), BF Warrior, Enhancement Shaman and 2 Rogues, so no LotP or FI. Did have 2 Heroisms, one at ~90% with DW and trinket/haste pot up, but the 2nd one was around 70% with no cooldowns up, wish the shaman had saved it for 19% with DW/Reck up :-/. Would also like to get a DST before nerf to see if I could top 2k dps, but we've only ever had one and I'm 3rd in line still for it. |
This is a post regarding wielding two identical speed weapons and the associated benefit of doing so, although part of my higher dps may be attributed to the two weapons both being slow, therefore also giving even more flurry uptime due to BT/WW keeping it up for longer durations without a 1.5 speed weapon eating them away as quickly.
Anyways, I recently picked up a [Fool's Bane] from Karazhan, despite already having [Merciless Gladiator's Cleaver] in mainhand and [Merciless Gladiator's Hacker] in my offhand, as no one else needed it.
I had heard about the extra flurry charge while wielding identical speed weapons, so decided to test for myself if using the two 2.6 speed weapons would actually yield a higher dps than the 1.5 speed offhand.
I tested on a typical Servant of Allistarj while keeping up Battleshout, Rampage, and repeating the BT/WW cycle with heroic strike when applicable (I did not keep up or use sunder armor for the test).
While mainhanding Fool's Bane and offhanding the 2.6 speed merc glad axe I maintained a consistent 730 dps over a 10 minute period of testing.
While mainhanding the 2.6 speed gladiator's axe and offhanding the 1.5 speed axe I maintained a constant 680 dps over a 10 minute period of testing.
While my crit rate is low (~24% in berserker currently) it was more of a dps gain than I would have expected by using a weapon that was 10 dps lower in listed value (Fool's bane as opposed to the merc axe in MH).
My warrior's armory:
The Armory
Anyways, I recently picked up a [Fool's Bane] from Karazhan, despite already having [Merciless Gladiator's Cleaver] in mainhand and [Merciless Gladiator's Hacker] in my offhand, as no one else needed it.
I had heard about the extra flurry charge while wielding identical speed weapons, so decided to test for myself if using the two 2.6 speed weapons would actually yield a higher dps than the 1.5 speed offhand.
I tested on a typical Servant of Allistarj while keeping up Battleshout, Rampage, and repeating the BT/WW cycle with heroic strike when applicable (I did not keep up or use sunder armor for the test).
While mainhanding Fool's Bane and offhanding the 2.6 speed merc glad axe I maintained a consistent 730 dps over a 10 minute period of testing.
While mainhanding the 2.6 speed gladiator's axe and offhanding the 1.5 speed axe I maintained a constant 680 dps over a 10 minute period of testing.
While my crit rate is low (~24% in berserker currently) it was more of a dps gain than I would have expected by using a weapon that was 10 dps lower in listed value (Fool's bane as opposed to the merc axe in MH).
My warrior's armory:
The Armory
That is interesting. I'm looking to pick up a claw off A'lar (2.7 speed mh) to MH with my Talon of Azshara would get pushed to OH. That would pair me at 2.7 speed. It would give me a higher DPS OH than my Malchazeen while adding in more stats as well.
tristantio, part of what you are seeing is related to the fact that instant attacks like BT and WW also generate Flurry charges. By using slower weapons you're consuming those charges less often so you see a better overall flurry uptime, thus better haste overall.
That being said, your crit rate is going to be significantly higher against Blasted Lands servants which exaggerates part of the test, so you'll have to see how it pans out against the MG weapons in raid situations. I would guess it will more or less be a wash.
That being said, your crit rate is going to be significantly higher against Blasted Lands servants which exaggerates part of the test, so you'll have to see how it pans out against the MG weapons in raid situations. I would guess it will more or less be a wash.
Servant of Allistarj is level 55 and therefore 75 defense lower than my 350 weapon skill, meaning that I'm getting an additional .04% chance to crit for each of those, effectively netting me 75 * .04 = 3 % extra crit rate, which is easily covered by buffs in a raid environment, so I think the testing for comparison is still fairly accurate and therefore I don't think its superfluous.
I do agree that a main factor is probably the lower weapon speed and the greater significance of yellow damage therefore keeping up flurry, however 50 dps is pretty substantial especially when dropping 10 dps on the aforementioned weapons to be able to dual wield the slower ones.
If Flurry is permanently up anyways (due to a much higher crit rate of around 33%+) than I'd imagine the impact is less significant, but for any lower geared fury warriors the benefit is definitely there.
I do agree that a main factor is probably the lower weapon speed and the greater significance of yellow damage therefore keeping up flurry, however 50 dps is pretty substantial especially when dropping 10 dps on the aforementioned weapons to be able to dual wield the slower ones.
If Flurry is permanently up anyways (due to a much higher crit rate of around 33%+) than I'd imagine the impact is less significant, but for any lower geared fury warriors the benefit is definitely there.
Flurry isn't up more than 70ish percent even with full black temple gear and 35+% crit.
Edited onPatch 2.1.3
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Originally Posted by svagftw
Flurry isn't up more than 70ish percent even with full black temple gear and 35+% crit.
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Last edited by Graul : 09/05/07 at 2:19 AM.
If that's the case then it looks like there is a much larger benefit to dual wielding identical speed slow weapons than I had initially thought, even at higher gear levels.
Slow weapons mean that instant attacks such as BT/WW/Hamstring that don't consume a flurry charge are still capable of activating flurry, and main and offhanding slow weapons will ensure that all those charges aren't eaten up by a 1.5 speed weapon.
Also the extra flurry swings from simultaneous hits with same speed weapons seems hugely beneficial also.
Slow weapons mean that instant attacks such as BT/WW/Hamstring that don't consume a flurry charge are still capable of activating flurry, and main and offhanding slow weapons will ensure that all those charges aren't eaten up by a 1.5 speed weapon.
Also the extra flurry swings from simultaneous hits with same speed weapons seems hugely beneficial also.
a simple question, does slam consume a flurry charge? as it is considered as a full swing... 
Flurry only effects white auto-swings. Slam is mathematically calculated as a normal swing is for damage (full weapon speed/ap benefit) but it is a special attack. It is not hasted by flurry and does not use a flurry charge.
This is my first time posting and I am a bit new to the game (been playing about 8 months now). However, my questions often go unanswered on the class forums or my questions go over people’s heads. No matter how new, I am a theory crafter and while some people just like clicking buttons, I love to crunch numbers. It was suggested to me to come here and while I am apprehensive about posting among a fine group of individuals like yourself, I urge you to believe that I have given this some thought and also seen some merit in game. Having spend lurking around a bit trying to find an answer, I came back empty on my question, albeit got a few amazing tips.
My question relates to survivability of DPS warrior, so please bare with me on all defense stuff
Assumption:
For the sake of calculations, I will assume that 490 defense makes a warrior or a palladin 100% uncrittable.
It is a far and wide fact that 490 defense will make you uncrittable (almost) against a level 73 mob (bosses). This comes from the fact that 475 defense will compensate for 5% crit chance that a same level mob has plus extra 15 to compensate for the level difference. (5 per level)
475-350 = 125 extra defense for a mob your level
125/5% = 25 defense per % crit
Extra 15 defense means that a level 73 mob has 0.6% additional chance to crit you. (interpolated)
Thus a level 73 mob has a 5.6% chance to crit you with base defense (350) at level 70.
Now, each point of resilience reduces a chance to be critically hit by 0.025%
5.6/0.025 = 224
As a DPS warrior and an avid PvP lover, my DPS gear mostly comes from PvP rewards and the Arena. Hence, my DPS gear is heavily resilience based. I know that resilience does not come free and that I am giving up some stats and perhaps gem slots for it, but in the guild I am in and the way tier tokens are set, I am competing against tanks and healers for tier pieces and thus, understandably, am at the bottom of the loot distribution list. Always striving towards improving my character, I sought gear upgrades elsewhere.
So, the $64,000 question.
Is my calculation above skewed or does it really mean that if I have ~225 resilience on my DPS gear that I would be virtually uncrittable in PvE?
Inquiring minds would love your input.
My question relates to survivability of DPS warrior, so please bare with me on all defense stuff
Assumption:
For the sake of calculations, I will assume that 490 defense makes a warrior or a palladin 100% uncrittable.
It is a far and wide fact that 490 defense will make you uncrittable (almost) against a level 73 mob (bosses). This comes from the fact that 475 defense will compensate for 5% crit chance that a same level mob has plus extra 15 to compensate for the level difference. (5 per level)
475-350 = 125 extra defense for a mob your level
125/5% = 25 defense per % crit
Extra 15 defense means that a level 73 mob has 0.6% additional chance to crit you. (interpolated)
Thus a level 73 mob has a 5.6% chance to crit you with base defense (350) at level 70.
Now, each point of resilience reduces a chance to be critically hit by 0.025%
5.6/0.025 = 224
As a DPS warrior and an avid PvP lover, my DPS gear mostly comes from PvP rewards and the Arena. Hence, my DPS gear is heavily resilience based. I know that resilience does not come free and that I am giving up some stats and perhaps gem slots for it, but in the guild I am in and the way tier tokens are set, I am competing against tanks and healers for tier pieces and thus, understandably, am at the bottom of the loot distribution list. Always striving towards improving my character, I sought gear upgrades elsewhere.
So, the $64,000 question.
Is my calculation above skewed or does it really mean that if I have ~225 resilience on my DPS gear that I would be virtually uncrittable in PvE?
Inquiring minds would love your input.
While you could be crit immune, that certainly doesn't mean a trash mob won't turn around and 2 shot you anyway. As a dps warrior, I find that I have, in general, the worst survivability of any class. My avoidance is inferior to a rogue, you take 10% more damage which all but negates your armor, and you have inferior aggro management. As such, I don't value any sort of defensive stat other than stamina. And, given that I'm clearing 11k hp raid buffed to survive any AOE secondary target damage, even additional stamina is of little value. You can't hit point something to death.
S2 gladiator gear is an excellent fill in for T4 level DPS gear. It has decent strenght, crit, and some hit. It's also about 20 ilvls higher than t4. T5 gear, which is what S2 gear is equivalent to, is superior to it for PVE dps. The long and short of it is you can do ok with that gear because it is higher level even than what you are using it to replace but in the long run, the PVE gear out distances it.
Also, your resilience is of almost no value. 15% crushing blows will kill you 3x more often than 5% crits. Intervene the tank on a boss one time and see how hard they hit.
S2 gladiator gear is an excellent fill in for T4 level DPS gear. It has decent strenght, crit, and some hit. It's also about 20 ilvls higher than t4. T5 gear, which is what S2 gear is equivalent to, is superior to it for PVE dps. The long and short of it is you can do ok with that gear because it is higher level even than what you are using it to replace but in the long run, the PVE gear out distances it.
Also, your resilience is of almost no value. 15% crushing blows will kill you 3x more often than 5% crits. Intervene the tank on a boss one time and see how hard they hit.
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Originally Posted by tristantio
I had heard about the extra flurry charge while wielding identical speed weapons, so decided to test for myself if using the two 2.6 speed weapons would actually yield a higher dps than the 1.5 speed offhand.
I tested on a typical Servant of Allistarj while keeping up Battleshout, Rampage, and repeating the BT/WW cycle with heroic strike when applicable (I did not keep up or use sunder armor for the test). |
So, in your test it's fairly likely that your weapons got out of sync (unless someone else was tanking the mob) and any potential benefit of having matched weapons was lost. It's quite possible that due to the funny stuff going on with Flurry that there actually is no benefit to matched weapons -- that will take more testing as far as I know. But your Blasted Lands run doesn't prove anything (unless you had someone else tanking for you).
Currently i am weilding a Dragonstrike MH and swiftsteel blundgeon offhand.
We had like 5 of those drop allready and so i picked a second one up for fun since it would go to a priest.
I actually like the idea of Dualweilding 2 of those weaps,they have amazing stats.And with these i am sitting around 15% passive haste and the hit they posses is really needed since with dragonstrike and 1 blungeon i have only 167 hit rating.
What do you think?Is the dragonstrike proc making up for all those dps stats missing on it?
I know that a slow mainhand favors Whirlwind and cleave.On the other hand the blundgeon gives more steady rage generation, the ability for more Heroic Strike spamming and executes.
So which is the best choice?
We had like 5 of those drop allready and so i picked a second one up for fun since it would go to a priest.
I actually like the idea of Dualweilding 2 of those weaps,they have amazing stats.And with these i am sitting around 15% passive haste and the hit they posses is really needed since with dragonstrike and 1 blungeon i have only 167 hit rating.
What do you think?Is the dragonstrike proc making up for all those dps stats missing on it?
I know that a slow mainhand favors Whirlwind and cleave.On the other hand the blundgeon gives more steady rage generation, the ability for more Heroic Strike spamming and executes.
So which is the best choice?
Any thoughts on Dragonspine Trophy post 2.2 patch? In addition to the haste nerf it also has had a 20-25 second internal cooldown added to it.
I wouldn't be surprised if Dragonstrike was nerfed similarly.
I wouldn't be surprised if Dragonstrike was nerfed similarly.
There's no precedence of weapon procs having internal cooldowns, and it's doubtful Blizzard would begin implementing them now.
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Originally Posted by Emeraude
Any thoughts on Dragonspine Trophy post 2.2 patch? In addition to the haste nerf it also has had a 20-25 second internal cooldown added to it.
I wouldn't be surprised if Dragonstrike was nerfed similarly. |
Edited onPatch 2.1.3
After hearing about the Dragonspine nerf I downloaded the new PTR client and took a tip out to Blasted Lands to do some DPS testing on the banished mobs.
Obviously these mobs can't compare to a raid boss, but in direct comparisons with other tests on the same mobs it's pretty valid.
I did my best to have the same variables in play from live to PTR - Precisely 6 minutes, NO Death Wish/Recklessness, same placement, same gear, kept 5 sunders up, kept Rampage up, kept Battle Shout up.
Live - ~1240 DPS
PTR - ~1130 DPS
Both of my weapons and one of my trinkets are pretty much purely haste based (Dragonstrike, Swiftsteel Bludgeon, Dragonspine Trophy) so the haste nerf is hitting pretty hard, though even with that hidden cooldown I can't think of very much I'd use over Dragonspine.
I'll download Procmeter and play around with it this afternoon for some further testing, but from what I glanced at on live it's really only a matter of 5-10 seconds longer between Dragonspine procs and I didn't notice any difference for Dragonstrike.
Update:
So I finally took the dive and started using WWS to make some reports so I could better see what's happening.
Just finished a set on PTR. Gear, spec, buffs, and mob are 100% identical between PTR and Live.
PTR -
Actual Start Time - 12:56:50.828
Actual Finish Time - 13:03:31.062
Total Damage - 421,163
Reported DPS - 1163
WWS Report - WWS
Actual Combat Log - http://thinkmaclaren.com/wws/PTR/WoWCombatLog.txt
Live -
Actual Start Time - 13:30:47.515
Actual Finish Time - 13:34:56.546
Total Damage - 329,664 (323818*)
Reported DPS - 1334
WWS Report - WWS
Actual Combat Log - http://thinkmaclaren.com/wws/LIVE/WoWCombatLog.txt
*There's a stray execute in the log for 5846
Also, to me these numbers seem quite low, albeit only self-buffed and keeping my own sunders up. PLEASE give me any suggestions you have!
What this means in relation to Dragonspine (more info to come!) - Average time between Procs on Live was ~15.5s, on PTR ~26.7s. That said this information may be flawed, as I am not sure whether the "Haste" being recorded in WWS is from Dragonstrike, Dragonspine, or both. From the average time I would assume it's recording just Dragonspine.
What I'm truly curious about now is seeing a comparison between Rising Tide and Dragonstrike - So if anyone has both, could you do some testing and post WWS or anything like it?
Obviously these mobs can't compare to a raid boss, but in direct comparisons with other tests on the same mobs it's pretty valid.
I did my best to have the same variables in play from live to PTR - Precisely 6 minutes, NO Death Wish/Recklessness, same placement, same gear, kept 5 sunders up, kept Rampage up, kept Battle Shout up.
Live - ~1240 DPS
PTR - ~1130 DPS
Both of my weapons and one of my trinkets are pretty much purely haste based (Dragonstrike, Swiftsteel Bludgeon, Dragonspine Trophy) so the haste nerf is hitting pretty hard, though even with that hidden cooldown I can't think of very much I'd use over Dragonspine.
I'll download Procmeter and play around with it this afternoon for some further testing, but from what I glanced at on live it's really only a matter of 5-10 seconds longer between Dragonspine procs and I didn't notice any difference for Dragonstrike.
Update:
So I finally took the dive and started using WWS to make some reports so I could better see what's happening.
Just finished a set on PTR. Gear, spec, buffs, and mob are 100% identical between PTR and Live.
PTR -
Actual Start Time - 12:56:50.828
Actual Finish Time - 13:03:31.062
Total Damage - 421,163
Reported DPS - 1163
WWS Report - WWS
Actual Combat Log - http://thinkmaclaren.com/wws/PTR/WoWCombatLog.txt
Live -
Actual Start Time - 13:30:47.515
Actual Finish Time - 13:34:56.546
Total Damage - 329,664 (323818*)
Reported DPS - 1334
WWS Report - WWS
Actual Combat Log - http://thinkmaclaren.com/wws/LIVE/WoWCombatLog.txt
*There's a stray execute in the log for 5846
Also, to me these numbers seem quite low, albeit only self-buffed and keeping my own sunders up. PLEASE give me any suggestions you have!
What this means in relation to Dragonspine (more info to come!) - Average time between Procs on Live was ~15.5s, on PTR ~26.7s. That said this information may be flawed, as I am not sure whether the "Haste" being recorded in WWS is from Dragonstrike, Dragonspine, or both. From the average time I would assume it's recording just Dragonspine.
What I'm truly curious about now is seeing a comparison between Rising Tide and Dragonstrike - So if anyone has both, could you do some testing and post WWS or anything like it?
Last edited by Kiranat : 09/03/07 at 1:56 PM.
judgeing from the nerf is dragonstrike still going to be the best weapon?
I currently have s2 mh sword, talon sword and dragonstrike all with mongoose i have dst also.
Which of the 3 will be best after the haste nerf i wonder.
I currently have s2 mh sword, talon sword and dragonstrike all with mongoose i have dst also.
Which of the 3 will be best after the haste nerf i wonder.
Edited onPatch 2.1.3
Finally got a clean Gorefiend kill with our normal MT in:
Davia - WWS
Skylla is the rogue that I'm usually jockeying with for #1 damage, he got the debuff fairly early on. The other rogue who is normally top 3 wasn't online tonight, so not a ton of competition, but still a decent raid DPS kill, not as if I got to blow a 3rd Death Wish. Tanath's TPS was off the charts, as I was able to go all out and not worry about my threat at all.
Did use 3 Haste pots, but group was Fury Warrior (me), BF Warrior, Enhancement Shaman and 2 Rogues, so no LotP or FI. Did have 2 Heroisms, one at ~90% with DW and trinket/haste pot up, but the 2nd one was around 70% with no cooldowns up, wish the shaman had saved it for 19% with DW/Reck up :-/. Would also like to get a DST before nerf to see if I could top 2k dps, but we've only ever had one and I'm 3rd in line still for it.
Davia - WWS
Skylla is the rogue that I'm usually jockeying with for #1 damage, he got the debuff fairly early on. The other rogue who is normally top 3 wasn't online tonight, so not a ton of competition, but still a decent raid DPS kill, not as if I got to blow a 3rd Death Wish. Tanath's TPS was off the charts, as I was able to go all out and not worry about my threat at all.
Did use 3 Haste pots, but group was Fury Warrior (me), BF Warrior, Enhancement Shaman and 2 Rogues, so no LotP or FI. Did have 2 Heroisms, one at ~90% with DW and trinket/haste pot up, but the 2nd one was around 70% with no cooldowns up, wish the shaman had saved it for 19% with DW/Reck up :-/. Would also like to get a DST before nerf to see if I could top 2k dps, but we've only ever had one and I'm 3rd in line still for it.
Last edited by Davia : 09/04/07 at 12:23 AM.
I've been looking over the forums for hours now, and I have yet to find the one thing I was looking for, regarding Heroic Strike (as both DPS, and tanking). The question at hand follows: Top rank Heroic Strike causes 193 additional threat when it lands, before modifiers. It seems to me that you would also gain additional threat from the damage increase, making Heroic Strike actually cause 176 threat from damage (being as damage from Heroic Strike is unmitigated), and an additional 193 from the threat component, making Heroic Strike cause a total of 369 additional threat more than a normal white strike. Is this correct? It seems to me that this is how it would probably work, but a lot of things in WoW don't make intuitive sense. It also seems entirely possible to me that the 176 unmitigated damage only causes 17 extra threat making the total threat from Heroic Strike 193... Would like confirmation, as I no longer play WoW and cannot test it on my own. I ask on behalf of a lazy tank friend.
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Originally Posted by Davia
Finally got a clean Gorefiend kill with our normal MT in:
Davia - WWS Skylla is the rogue that I'm usually jockeying with for #1 damage, he got the debuff fairly early on. The other rogue who is normally top 3 wasn't online tonight, so not a ton of competition, but still a decent raid DPS kill, not as if I got to blow a 3rd Death Wish. Tanath's TPS was off the charts, as I was able to go all out and not worry about my threat at all. Did use 3 Haste pots, but group was Fury Warrior (me), BF Warrior, Enhancement Shaman and 2 Rogues, so no LotP or FI. Did have 2 Heroisms, one at ~90% with DW and trinket/haste pot up, but the 2nd one was around 70% with no cooldowns up, wish the shaman had saved it for 19% with DW/Reck up :-/. Would also like to get a DST before nerf to see if I could top 2k dps, but we've only ever had one and I'm 3rd in line still for it. |
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Originally Posted by deusy
I've been looking over the forums for hours now, and I have yet to find the one thing I was looking for, regarding Heroic Strike (as both DPS, and tanking). The question at hand follows: Top rank Heroic Strike causes 193 additional threat when it lands, before modifiers. It seems to me that you would also gain additional threat from the damage increase, making Heroic Strike actually cause 176 threat from damage (being as damage from Heroic Strike is unmitigated), and an additional 193 from the threat component, making Heroic Strike cause a total of 369 additional threat more than a normal white strike. Is this correct? It seems to me that this is how it would probably work, but a lot of things in WoW don't make intuitive sense. It also seems entirely possible to me that the 176 unmitigated damage only causes 17 extra threat making the total threat from Heroic Strike 193... Would like confirmation, as I no longer play WoW and cannot test it on my own. I ask on behalf of a lazy tank friend.
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And its actually even more than 369 extra threat per hit since heroic strikes cant glance and as such on average does more than 176 extra damage than a white hit.
That being said this is a DPS warrior thread not a tank thread.
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Originally Posted by Brissa
That being said this is a DPS warrior thread not a tank thread. |
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Originally Posted by Repeek
I noticed you're spec'd into 2/2 Improved Overpower yet you didn't overpower once the entire fight. Would you consider moving one of those talent points into Imp Whirlwind for a smoother BT/WW cycle?
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Originally Posted by Davia
Finally got a clean Gorefiend kill with our normal MT in:
Davia - WWS Skylla is the rogue that I'm usually jockeying with for #1 damage, he got the debuff fairly early on. The other rogue who is normally top 3 wasn't online tonight, so not a ton of competition, but still a decent raid DPS kill, not as if I got to blow a 3rd Death Wish. Tanath's TPS was off the charts, as I was able to go all out and not worry about my threat at all. Did use 3 Haste pots, but group was Fury Warrior (me), BF Warrior, Enhancement Shaman and 2 Rogues, so no LotP or FI. Did have 2 Heroisms, one at ~90% with DW and trinket/haste pot up, but the 2nd one was around 70% with no cooldowns up, wish the shaman had saved it for 19% with DW/Reck up :-/. Would also like to get a DST before nerf to see if I could top 2k dps, but we've only ever had one and I'm 3rd in line still for it. |
This is a post regarding wielding two identical speed weapons and the associated benefit of doing so, although part of my higher dps may be attributed to the two weapons both being slow, therefore also giving even more flurry uptime due to BT/WW keeping it up for longer durations without a 1.5 speed weapon eating them away as quickly.
Anyways, I recently picked up a [Fool's Bane] from Karazhan, despite already having [Merciless Gladiator's Cleaver] in mainhand and [Merciless Gladiator's Hacker] in my offhand, as no one else needed it.
I had heard about the extra flurry charge while wielding identical speed weapons, so decided to test for myself if using the two 2.6 speed weapons would actually yield a higher dps than the 1.5 speed offhand.
I tested on a typical Servant of Allistarj while keeping up Battleshout, Rampage, and repeating the BT/WW cycle with heroic strike when applicable (I did not keep up or use sunder armor for the test).
While mainhanding Fool's Bane and offhanding the 2.6 speed merc glad axe I maintained a consistent 730 dps over a 10 minute period of testing.
While mainhanding the 2.6 speed gladiator's axe and offhanding the 1.5 speed axe I maintained a constant 680 dps over a 10 minute period of testing.
While my crit rate is low (~24% in berserker currently) it was more of a dps gain than I would have expected by using a weapon that was 10 dps lower in listed value (Fool's bane as opposed to the merc axe in MH).
My warrior's armory:
The Armory
Anyways, I recently picked up a [Fool's Bane] from Karazhan, despite already having [Merciless Gladiator's Cleaver] in mainhand and [Merciless Gladiator's Hacker] in my offhand, as no one else needed it.
I had heard about the extra flurry charge while wielding identical speed weapons, so decided to test for myself if using the two 2.6 speed weapons would actually yield a higher dps than the 1.5 speed offhand.
I tested on a typical Servant of Allistarj while keeping up Battleshout, Rampage, and repeating the BT/WW cycle with heroic strike when applicable (I did not keep up or use sunder armor for the test).
While mainhanding Fool's Bane and offhanding the 2.6 speed merc glad axe I maintained a consistent 730 dps over a 10 minute period of testing.
While mainhanding the 2.6 speed gladiator's axe and offhanding the 1.5 speed axe I maintained a constant 680 dps over a 10 minute period of testing.
While my crit rate is low (~24% in berserker currently) it was more of a dps gain than I would have expected by using a weapon that was 10 dps lower in listed value (Fool's bane as opposed to the merc axe in MH).
My warrior's armory:
The Armory
That is interesting. I'm looking to pick up a claw off A'lar (2.7 speed mh) to MH with my Talon of Azshara would get pushed to OH. That would pair me at 2.7 speed. It would give me a higher DPS OH than my Malchazeen while adding in more stats as well.
tristantio, part of what you are seeing is related to the fact that instant attacks like BT and WW also generate Flurry charges. By using slower weapons you're consuming those charges less often so you see a better overall flurry uptime, thus better haste overall.
That being said, your crit rate is going to be significantly higher against Blasted Lands servants which exaggerates part of the test, so you'll have to see how it pans out against the MG weapons in raid situations. I would guess it will more or less be a wash.
That being said, your crit rate is going to be significantly higher against Blasted Lands servants which exaggerates part of the test, so you'll have to see how it pans out against the MG weapons in raid situations. I would guess it will more or less be a wash.
Servant of Allistarj is level 55 and therefore 75 defense lower than my 350 weapon skill, meaning that I'm getting an additional .04% chance to crit for each of those, effectively netting me 75 * .04 = 3 % extra crit rate, which is easily covered by buffs in a raid environment, so I think the testing for comparison is still fairly accurate and therefore I don't think its superfluous.
I do agree that a main factor is probably the lower weapon speed and the greater significance of yellow damage therefore keeping up flurry, however 50 dps is pretty substantial especially when dropping 10 dps on the aforementioned weapons to be able to dual wield the slower ones.
If Flurry is permanently up anyways (due to a much higher crit rate of around 33%+) than I'd imagine the impact is less significant, but for any lower geared fury warriors the benefit is definitely there.
I do agree that a main factor is probably the lower weapon speed and the greater significance of yellow damage therefore keeping up flurry, however 50 dps is pretty substantial especially when dropping 10 dps on the aforementioned weapons to be able to dual wield the slower ones.
If Flurry is permanently up anyways (due to a much higher crit rate of around 33%+) than I'd imagine the impact is less significant, but for any lower geared fury warriors the benefit is definitely there.
Flurry isn't up more than 70ish percent even with full black temple gear and 35+% crit.
Edited onPatch 2.1.3
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Originally Posted by svagftw
Flurry isn't up more than 70ish percent even with full black temple gear and 35+% crit.
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Last edited by Graul : 09/05/07 at 2:19 AM.
If that's the case then it looks like there is a much larger benefit to dual wielding identical speed slow weapons than I had initially thought, even at higher gear levels.
Slow weapons mean that instant attacks such as BT/WW/Hamstring that don't consume a flurry charge are still capable of activating flurry, and main and offhanding slow weapons will ensure that all those charges aren't eaten up by a 1.5 speed weapon.
Also the extra flurry swings from simultaneous hits with same speed weapons seems hugely beneficial also.
Slow weapons mean that instant attacks such as BT/WW/Hamstring that don't consume a flurry charge are still capable of activating flurry, and main and offhanding slow weapons will ensure that all those charges aren't eaten up by a 1.5 speed weapon.
Also the extra flurry swings from simultaneous hits with same speed weapons seems hugely beneficial also.
a simple question, does slam consume a flurry charge? as it is considered as a full swing...
Flurry only effects white auto-swings. Slam is mathematically calculated as a normal swing is for damage (full weapon speed/ap benefit) but it is a special attack. It is not hasted by flurry and does not use a flurry charge.
This is my first time posting and I am a bit new to the game (been playing about 8 months now). However, my questions often go unanswered on the class forums or my questions go over people’s heads. No matter how new, I am a theory crafter and while some people just like clicking buttons, I love to crunch numbers. It was suggested to me to come here and while I am apprehensive about posting among a fine group of individuals like yourself, I urge you to believe that I have given this some thought and also seen some merit in game. Having spend lurking around a bit trying to find an answer, I came back empty on my question, albeit got a few amazing tips.
My question relates to survivability of DPS warrior, so please bare with me on all defense stuff
Assumption:
For the sake of calculations, I will assume that 490 defense makes a warrior or a palladin 100% uncrittable.
It is a far and wide fact that 490 defense will make you uncrittable (almost) against a level 73 mob (bosses). This comes from the fact that 475 defense will compensate for 5% crit chance that a same level mob has plus extra 15 to compensate for the level difference. (5 per level)
475-350 = 125 extra defense for a mob your level
125/5% = 25 defense per % crit
Extra 15 defense means that a level 73 mob has 0.6% additional chance to crit you. (interpolated)
Thus a level 73 mob has a 5.6% chance to crit you with base defense (350) at level 70.
Now, each point of resilience reduces a chance to be critically hit by 0.025%
5.6/0.025 = 224
As a DPS warrior and an avid PvP lover, my DPS gear mostly comes from PvP rewards and the Arena. Hence, my DPS gear is heavily resilience based. I know that resilience does not come free and that I am giving up some stats and perhaps gem slots for it, but in the guild I am in and the way tier tokens are set, I am competing against tanks and healers for tier pieces and thus, understandably, am at the bottom of the loot distribution list. Always striving towards improving my character, I sought gear upgrades elsewhere.
So, the $64,000 question.
Is my calculation above skewed or does it really mean that if I have ~225 resilience on my DPS gear that I would be virtually uncrittable in PvE?
Inquiring minds would love your input.
My question relates to survivability of DPS warrior, so please bare with me on all defense stuff
Assumption:
For the sake of calculations, I will assume that 490 defense makes a warrior or a palladin 100% uncrittable.
It is a far and wide fact that 490 defense will make you uncrittable (almost) against a level 73 mob (bosses). This comes from the fact that 475 defense will compensate for 5% crit chance that a same level mob has plus extra 15 to compensate for the level difference. (5 per level)
475-350 = 125 extra defense for a mob your level
125/5% = 25 defense per % crit
Extra 15 defense means that a level 73 mob has 0.6% additional chance to crit you. (interpolated)
Thus a level 73 mob has a 5.6% chance to crit you with base defense (350) at level 70.
Now, each point of resilience reduces a chance to be critically hit by 0.025%
5.6/0.025 = 224
As a DPS warrior and an avid PvP lover, my DPS gear mostly comes from PvP rewards and the Arena. Hence, my DPS gear is heavily resilience based. I know that resilience does not come free and that I am giving up some stats and perhaps gem slots for it, but in the guild I am in and the way tier tokens are set, I am competing against tanks and healers for tier pieces and thus, understandably, am at the bottom of the loot distribution list. Always striving towards improving my character, I sought gear upgrades elsewhere.
So, the $64,000 question.
Is my calculation above skewed or does it really mean that if I have ~225 resilience on my DPS gear that I would be virtually uncrittable in PvE?
Inquiring minds would love your input.
While you could be crit immune, that certainly doesn't mean a trash mob won't turn around and 2 shot you anyway. As a dps warrior, I find that I have, in general, the worst survivability of any class. My avoidance is inferior to a rogue, you take 10% more damage which all but negates your armor, and you have inferior aggro management. As such, I don't value any sort of defensive stat other than stamina. And, given that I'm clearing 11k hp raid buffed to survive any AOE secondary target damage, even additional stamina is of little value. You can't hit point something to death.
S2 gladiator gear is an excellent fill in for T4 level DPS gear. It has decent strenght, crit, and some hit. It's also about 20 ilvls higher than t4. T5 gear, which is what S2 gear is equivalent to, is superior to it for PVE dps. The long and short of it is you can do ok with that gear because it is higher level even than what you are using it to replace but in the long run, the PVE gear out distances it.
Also, your resilience is of almost no value. 15% crushing blows will kill you 3x more often than 5% crits. Intervene the tank on a boss one time and see how hard they hit.
S2 gladiator gear is an excellent fill in for T4 level DPS gear. It has decent strenght, crit, and some hit. It's also about 20 ilvls higher than t4. T5 gear, which is what S2 gear is equivalent to, is superior to it for PVE dps. The long and short of it is you can do ok with that gear because it is higher level even than what you are using it to replace but in the long run, the PVE gear out distances it.
Also, your resilience is of almost no value. 15% crushing blows will kill you 3x more often than 5% crits. Intervene the tank on a boss one time and see how hard they hit.
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Originally Posted by tristantio
I had heard about the extra flurry charge while wielding identical speed weapons, so decided to test for myself if using the two 2.6 speed weapons would actually yield a higher dps than the 1.5 speed offhand.
I tested on a typical Servant of Allistarj while keeping up Battleshout, Rampage, and repeating the BT/WW cycle with heroic strike when applicable (I did not keep up or use sunder armor for the test). |
So, in your test it's fairly likely that your weapons got out of sync (unless someone else was tanking the mob) and any potential benefit of having matched weapons was lost. It's quite possible that due to the funny stuff going on with Flurry that there actually is no benefit to matched weapons -- that will take more testing as far as I know. But your Blasted Lands run doesn't prove anything (unless you had someone else tanking for you).
Currently i am weilding a Dragonstrike MH and swiftsteel blundgeon offhand.
We had like 5 of those drop allready and so i picked a second one up for fun since it would go to a priest.
I actually like the idea of Dualweilding 2 of those weaps,they have amazing stats.And with these i am sitting around 15% passive haste and the hit they posses is really needed since with dragonstrike and 1 blungeon i have only 167 hit rating.
What do you think?Is the dragonstrike proc making up for all those dps stats missing on it?
I know that a slow mainhand favors Whirlwind and cleave.On the other hand the blundgeon gives more steady rage generation, the ability for more Heroic Strike spamming and executes.
So which is the best choice?
We had like 5 of those drop allready and so i picked a second one up for fun since it would go to a priest.
I actually like the idea of Dualweilding 2 of those weaps,they have amazing stats.And with these i am sitting around 15% passive haste and the hit they posses is really needed since with dragonstrike and 1 blungeon i have only 167 hit rating.
What do you think?Is the dragonstrike proc making up for all those dps stats missing on it?
I know that a slow mainhand favors Whirlwind and cleave.On the other hand the blundgeon gives more steady rage generation, the ability for more Heroic Strike spamming and executes.
So which is the best choice?
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Originally Posted by zeratulgr
Currently i am weilding a Dragonstrike MH and swiftsteel blundgeon offhand.
We had like 5 of those drop allready and so i picked a second one up for fun since it would go to a priest. I actually like the idea of Dualweilding 2 of those weaps,they have amazing stats.And with these i am sitting around 15% passive haste and the hit they posses is really needed since with dragonstrike and 1 blungeon i have only 167 hit rating. What do you think?Is the dragonstrike proc making up for all those dps stats missing on it? I know that a slow mainhand favors Whirlwind and cleave.On the other hand the blundgeon gives more steady rage generation, the ability for more Heroic Strike spamming and executes. So which is the best choice? |
167 hit is alittle to low. You should aim to have 200 as a minimum. Dragonstrike is better in my opinion as the incoming haste nerf will see static haste gear as sub par compared to their equal level counterparts with stats. Dragonstike is proc based and hasnt got internal cooldowns so I think it will be your best bet dps wise.
I know everyone has their own personal gear choices, but I'm curious as to what most of you see as the most powerful trinket combination for raid DPS between the following: [Bloodlust Brooch], [Dragonspine Trophy], [Tsunami Talisman] and [Solarian's Sapphire] (with Imp BS)
At the present time I'd guess [Dragonspine Trophy] and [Tsunami Talisman], but post-patch I'm not too sure. Even after the haste nerf and hidden cooldown of [Dragonspine Trophy] next patch, is it still worth equipping over anything else?
At the present time I'd guess [Dragonspine Trophy] and [Tsunami Talisman], but post-patch I'm not too sure. Even after the haste nerf and hidden cooldown of [Dragonspine Trophy] next patch, is it still worth equipping over anything else?
DST is still the best for your personal dps, but overall raid dps nothing even comes close to the Sapphire. It's such a massive amount of ap if you are in a melee dps group, 437 with 5/5 Imp BS.
I sit on 1931 AP/17.97%/29.56% Crit, and I still have a few issues with rage, I'm not seeing this cut off-point mentioned where too much hit = too much rage.
With regards to wearing Gladiator's gear while dps'ing, it's not actually as bad as you might initially think. A lot of mobs/bosses do at least some form of raidwide damage that can't be avoided, and the way resilience has been coded, what this means is that this damage can proc things like Enrage (and to a lesser extent Blood Craze).
Against a fight like Gorefiend, as a 33/28 bloodfrenzy spec, i was getting a significant number of Enrage procs from the Shadowbolts flying around.
Now obviously, resilience will be nowhere near as good as offensive stats point-for-point, but it is still better than nothing.
Against a fight like Gorefiend, as a 33/28 bloodfrenzy spec, i was getting a significant number of Enrage procs from the Shadowbolts flying around.
Now obviously, resilience will be nowhere near as good as offensive stats point-for-point, but it is still better than nothing.
Edited onPatch 2.1.3
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Originally Posted by Rezarel
So, in your test it's fairly likely that your weapons got out of sync (unless someone else was tanking the mob) and any potential benefit of having matched weapons was lost. It's quite possible that due to the funny stuff going on with Flurry that there actually is no benefit to matched weapons -- that will take more testing as far as I know. But your Blasted Lands run doesn't prove anything (unless you had someone else tanking for you).
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An inferior OH weapon (by itself) gave (considerably) more total DPS.
Whether this is due to the lower speed (and thus higher flurry uptime - data on this could have helped here) or to synchronized speed ...I don't know.
I think we see both effects at work here.
EDIT: Ahh, on second thought, I finally got your reasoning. That him fighting the mobs (unless someone else tanked) would inevitably result in some parries and as such negating the synchronized weapon speeds. From this you conclude that most (if not all) of his result was due to other criteria (lower speed presumably) and not the matched speed. Hmm, yes that sounds reasonable.
And as to your objection that parrying would negate the syncronized speed: most fury warriors do not tank, and as such do not parry - so this should be not an argument per se against synchronized weapon speed (in a PvE Raid environement).
Last edited by suicuique : 09/06/07 at 7:22 AM.
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Originally Posted by Grymm
Flurry only effects white auto-swings. Slam is mathematically calculated as a normal swing is for damage (full weapon speed/ap benefit) but it is a special attack. It is not hasted by flurry and does not use a flurry charge.
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That covers all white damage AND cleave/heroic strike, which produce yellow damage.
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Originally Posted by suicuique
I'm pretty sure flurry is consumed be all "next swing" abilities.
That covers all white damage AND cleave/heroic strike, which produce yellow damage. |
Now, my own question: given the recoding of WF, can the second hit of a cleave proc WF? HS can proc WF and the first hit of cleave should but what about the second? It still falls into the "on next attack" category, but is also of the "aoe" physical school similar to WW. When I'm DPSing 2 trash mobs, there are generally too many numbers on the screen to really know what is going on.
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Originally Posted by Davia
Finally got a clean Gorefiend kill with our normal MT in:
Davia - WWS Skylla is the rogue that I'm usually jockeying with for #1 damage, he got the debuff fairly early on. The other rogue who is normally top 3 wasn't online tonight, so not a ton of competition, but still a decent raid DPS kill, not as if I got to blow a 3rd Death Wish. Tanath's TPS was off the charts, as I was able to go all out and not worry about my threat at all. Did use 3 Haste pots, but group was Fury Warrior (me), BF Warrior, Enhancement Shaman and 2 Rogues, so no LotP or FI. Did have 2 Heroisms, one at ~90% with DW and trinket/haste pot up, but the 2nd one was around 70% with no cooldowns up, wish the shaman had saved it for 19% with DW/Reck up :-/. Would also like to get a DST before nerf to see if I could top 2k dps, but we've only ever had one and I'm 3rd in line still for it. |
Also what is the Best enchant for weapons for Dual wielders?
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Originally Posted by Bliss
DST is still the best for your personal dps, but overall raid dps nothing even comes close to the Sapphire. It's such a massive amount of ap if you are in a melee dps group, 437 with 5/5 Imp BS.
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517AP for warriors
470AP for rogues / druids etc
Which means this trinket is insanely good for you and everyone in your party.
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Originally Posted by Lopert
Davia what is your normal attack sequence. That DPS is jaw dropping.
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Originally Posted by world
A lot of mobs/bosses do at least some form of raidwide damage that can't be avoided, and the way resilience has been coded, what this means is that this damage can proc things like Enrage (and to a lesser extent Blood Craze).
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I am, however, having trouble understanding how would a stat like resilience, which hinders the frequency and damage dealt to you via a crit, lead to a proc of a talent like enrage which is crit driven. Do you mind shedding some light on this "coding" you are speaking of?
Resilience reduces the chance to be crit. However, the way things seem to have been done, the game has no way of knowing if a regular hit you take was "supposed" to have been a crit (but wasn't due to Resilience). So they do a second roll, for all non-critical hits taken, against your Resilience in order to fudge the "oh, this was supposed to have been a crit" calculation and decide whether to effects like Enrage.
Subsequently, stuff that cannot crit can proc Enrage through Resilience, like standing in fires. Or at least it used to be able to. I still get Enraged occasionally in a raid by NPC stuff, and I think that includes spells which can't crit.
This is also the reason a "crit that wasn't" doesn't proc Enrage AND Blood Craze - when you're crit, both proc, but ordinary hits, the roll against Resilience is two separate rolls (one for each effect). The chance of both coming true at the same time is pretty small. There's a blue post about it someplace on that cardplace website.
Subsequently, stuff that cannot crit can proc Enrage through Resilience, like standing in fires. Or at least it used to be able to. I still get Enraged occasionally in a raid by NPC stuff, and I think that includes spells which can't crit.
This is also the reason a "crit that wasn't" doesn't proc Enrage AND Blood Craze - when you're crit, both proc, but ordinary hits, the roll against Resilience is two separate rolls (one for each effect). The chance of both coming true at the same time is pretty small. There's a blue post about it someplace on that cardplace website.
Yeah thats pretty much exactly how it works.
To simplify it further, assume you had sufficient resilience to "reduce your chance to be crit by 100%" What the game would do is assume that _every single_ attack made against you would have crit, but was prevented by your resilience.
In this case, every single time you take damage, you would receive both enrage and blood craze
To simplify it further, assume you had sufficient resilience to "reduce your chance to be crit by 100%" What the game would do is assume that _every single_ attack made against you would have crit, but was prevented by your resilience.
In this case, every single time you take damage, you would receive both enrage and blood craze
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Originally Posted by world
Yeah thats pretty much exactly how it works.
To simplify it further, assume you had sufficient resilience to "reduce your chance to be crit by 100%" What the game would do is assume that _every single_ attack made against you would have crit, but was prevented by your resilience. In this case, every single time you take damage, you would receive both enrage and blood craze |
I wouldn't count on that to be in game for long.
It seems very much intended, for PvP reasons, and it's been like that for quite some time.
Even with this effect, resilience is still a horrible stat to wear in PvE. I don't see any reason to change it, at least not right now. Unless they can somehow prevent this from happening in PvE without changing the effect in PvP.
Even with this effect, resilience is still a horrible stat to wear in PvE. I don't see any reason to change it, at least not right now. Unless they can somehow prevent this from happening in PvE without changing the effect in PvP.
The intention of the mechanic is to not devalue talents which are based on crit events (like enrage) with resilience making a PVP warrior who values enrage highly have to choose between his effective talents and his resilience PVP gear. The idea is to maintain crit based events like enrage at their pre-resilience proc rates while decreasing the crit rates through the resilience mechanics. If resilience roll currently has not check for "can crit/crit chance", there will likely be a modification/correction to it. Can a warlock proc enrage in a warrior wearing resilience through dots? That would be an enrage proc that would not normally happen as dots cannot crit. Thus, in the PVP environment, enrage actually gains in usefulness with resilience giving you and unintended proc rate. Now, if you had 50% crit chance reduction through resilience giving you a 50% chance to gain blood craze/enrage but only facing opponents who only natively have ~20-30% crit chance, your resilience has increased your proc rate above what would normally even be possible. This is important because in PVE, mobs/spells usually only have a 5-6% crit rate. It is very easy to surpass that with resilience.
You realise no PvE mobs spells crit ever, No Boss aoe damage ever ever crits.
Resillence in PvE is a totally worthless stat if your DPS'ing.
Resillence in PvE is a totally worthless stat if your DPS'ing.
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Originally Posted by Paa
You realise no PvE mobs spells crit ever, No Boss aoe damage ever ever crits.
Resillence in PvE is a totally worthless stat if your DPS'ing. |
I understand what's said reading through it again, I still dont think resillence is a worthwhile PvE stat at all as a dps warrior.
And at some point it may get bugfixed what's been described (Ive never seen it happen)
And at some point it may get bugfixed what's been described (Ive never seen it happen)
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Originally Posted by Paa
I understand what's said reading through it again, I still dont think resillence is a worthwhile PvE stat at all as a dps warrior.
And at some point it may get bugfixed what's been described (Ive never seen it happen) |
If resilience leads to an increase in talent crit based procs even during situations when it is not intended (ie triggering on uncrittable events like Dots), it would seem to me to be incorrectly implemented and not inline with the original intention. As such, I could see the implementation being fixed.
Edited onPatch 2.1.3
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Originally Posted by Grymm
If resilience leads to an increase in talent crit based procs even during situations when it is not intended (ie triggering on uncrittable events like Dots), it would seem to me to be incorrectly implemented and not inline with the original intention. As such, I could see the implementation being fixed.
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Last edited by Gokey : 09/07/07 at 3:08 PM.
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Originally Posted by Paa
I understand what's said reading through it again, I still dont think resillence is a worthwhile PvE stat at all as a dps warrior.
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It's like a nice middleground set that you can dps in without losing too much and, if something goes wrong, pick up and survive trash adds in a pinch. It's certainly nothing i'd wear full time or to tank anything serious, but I take on trash with Gladiator's gear rather than itemrack in my full tanking suit.
After all it is my highest HP gear I have laying around that renders me uncrittable without gimping my damage or my threat.
I'm pretty sure I have occasionally procced enrage off NPC spells, they've fixed most of the really obvious stuff (like standing near braziers in IF, or fall damage), so it's mostly physical damage and maybe one or two spells they might have overlooked. I'm almost certain i've never procced it off a dot.
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Originally Posted by world
With regards to wearing Gladiator's gear while dps'ing, it's not actually as bad as you might initially think. A lot of mobs/bosses do at least some form of raidwide damage that can't be avoided, and the way resilience has been coded, what this means is that this damage can proc things like Enrage (and to a lesser extent Blood Craze).
Against a fight like Gorefiend, as a 33/28 bloodfrenzy spec, i was getting a significant number of Enrage procs from the Shadowbolts flying around. Now obviously, resilience will be nowhere near as good as offensive stats point-for-point, but it is still better than nothing. |
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Originally Posted by zeratulgr
Currently i am weilding a Dragonstrike MH and swiftsteel blundgeon offhand.
We had like 5 of those drop allready and so i picked a second one up for fun since it would go to a priest. I actually like the idea of Dualweilding 2 of those weaps,they have amazing stats.And with these i am sitting around 15% passive haste and the hit they posses is really needed since with dragonstrike and 1 blungeon i have only 167 hit rating. What do you think?Is the dragonstrike proc making up for all those dps stats missing on it? I know that a slow mainhand favors Whirlwind and cleave.On the other hand the blundgeon gives more steady rage generation, the ability for more Heroic Strike spamming and executes. So which is the best choice? |
167 hit is alittle to low. You should aim to have 200 as a minimum. Dragonstrike is better in my opinion as the incoming haste nerf will see static haste gear as sub par compared to their equal level counterparts with stats. Dragonstike is proc based and hasnt got internal cooldowns so I think it will be your best bet dps wise.
I know everyone has their own personal gear choices, but I'm curious as to what most of you see as the most powerful trinket combination for raid DPS between the following: [Bloodlust Brooch], [Dragonspine Trophy], [Tsunami Talisman] and [Solarian's Sapphire] (with Imp BS)
At the present time I'd guess [Dragonspine Trophy] and [Tsunami Talisman], but post-patch I'm not too sure. Even after the haste nerf and hidden cooldown of [Dragonspine Trophy] next patch, is it still worth equipping over anything else?
At the present time I'd guess [Dragonspine Trophy] and [Tsunami Talisman], but post-patch I'm not too sure. Even after the haste nerf and hidden cooldown of [Dragonspine Trophy] next patch, is it still worth equipping over anything else?
DST is still the best for your personal dps, but overall raid dps nothing even comes close to the Sapphire. It's such a massive amount of ap if you are in a melee dps group, 437 with 5/5 Imp BS.
I sit on 1931 AP/17.97%/29.56% Crit, and I still have a few issues with rage, I'm not seeing this cut off-point mentioned where too much hit = too much rage.
With regards to wearing Gladiator's gear while dps'ing, it's not actually as bad as you might initially think. A lot of mobs/bosses do at least some form of raidwide damage that can't be avoided, and the way resilience has been coded, what this means is that this damage can proc things like Enrage (and to a lesser extent Blood Craze).
Against a fight like Gorefiend, as a 33/28 bloodfrenzy spec, i was getting a significant number of Enrage procs from the Shadowbolts flying around.
Now obviously, resilience will be nowhere near as good as offensive stats point-for-point, but it is still better than nothing.
Against a fight like Gorefiend, as a 33/28 bloodfrenzy spec, i was getting a significant number of Enrage procs from the Shadowbolts flying around.
Now obviously, resilience will be nowhere near as good as offensive stats point-for-point, but it is still better than nothing.
Edited onPatch 2.1.3
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Originally Posted by Rezarel
So, in your test it's fairly likely that your weapons got out of sync (unless someone else was tanking the mob) and any potential benefit of having matched weapons was lost. It's quite possible that due to the funny stuff going on with Flurry that there actually is no benefit to matched weapons -- that will take more testing as far as I know. But your Blasted Lands run doesn't prove anything (unless you had someone else tanking for you).
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An inferior OH weapon (by itself) gave (considerably) more total DPS.
Whether this is due to the lower speed (and thus higher flurry uptime - data on this could have helped here) or to synchronized speed ...I don't know.
I think we see both effects at work here.
EDIT: Ahh, on second thought, I finally got your reasoning. That him fighting the mobs (unless someone else tanked) would inevitably result in some parries and as such negating the synchronized weapon speeds. From this you conclude that most (if not all) of his result was due to other criteria (lower speed presumably) and not the matched speed. Hmm, yes that sounds reasonable.
And as to your objection that parrying would negate the syncronized speed: most fury warriors do not tank, and as such do not parry - so this should be not an argument per se against synchronized weapon speed (in a PvE Raid environement).
Last edited by suicuique : 09/06/07 at 7:22 AM.
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Originally Posted by Grymm
Flurry only effects white auto-swings. Slam is mathematically calculated as a normal swing is for damage (full weapon speed/ap benefit) but it is a special attack. It is not hasted by flurry and does not use a flurry charge.
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That covers all white damage AND cleave/heroic strike, which produce yellow damage.
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Originally Posted by suicuique
I'm pretty sure flurry is consumed be all "next swing" abilities.
That covers all white damage AND cleave/heroic strike, which produce yellow damage. |
Now, my own question: given the recoding of WF, can the second hit of a cleave proc WF? HS can proc WF and the first hit of cleave should but what about the second? It still falls into the "on next attack" category, but is also of the "aoe" physical school similar to WW. When I'm DPSing 2 trash mobs, there are generally too many numbers on the screen to really know what is going on.
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Originally Posted by Davia
Finally got a clean Gorefiend kill with our normal MT in:
Davia - WWS Skylla is the rogue that I'm usually jockeying with for #1 damage, he got the debuff fairly early on. The other rogue who is normally top 3 wasn't online tonight, so not a ton of competition, but still a decent raid DPS kill, not as if I got to blow a 3rd Death Wish. Tanath's TPS was off the charts, as I was able to go all out and not worry about my threat at all. Did use 3 Haste pots, but group was Fury Warrior (me), BF Warrior, Enhancement Shaman and 2 Rogues, so no LotP or FI. Did have 2 Heroisms, one at ~90% with DW and trinket/haste pot up, but the 2nd one was around 70% with no cooldowns up, wish the shaman had saved it for 19% with DW/Reck up :-/. Would also like to get a DST before nerf to see if I could top 2k dps, but we've only ever had one and I'm 3rd in line still for it. |
Also what is the Best enchant for weapons for Dual wielders?
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Originally Posted by Bliss
DST is still the best for your personal dps, but overall raid dps nothing even comes close to the Sapphire. It's such a massive amount of ap if you are in a melee dps group, 437 with 5/5 Imp BS.
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517AP for warriors
470AP for rogues / druids etc
Which means this trinket is insanely good for you and everyone in your party.
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Originally Posted by Lopert
Davia what is your normal attack sequence. That DPS is jaw dropping.
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Originally Posted by world
A lot of mobs/bosses do at least some form of raidwide damage that can't be avoided, and the way resilience has been coded, what this means is that this damage can proc things like Enrage (and to a lesser extent Blood Craze).
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I am, however, having trouble understanding how would a stat like resilience, which hinders the frequency and damage dealt to you via a crit, lead to a proc of a talent like enrage which is crit driven. Do you mind shedding some light on this "coding" you are speaking of?
Resilience reduces the chance to be crit. However, the way things seem to have been done, the game has no way of knowing if a regular hit you take was "supposed" to have been a crit (but wasn't due to Resilience). So they do a second roll, for all non-critical hits taken, against your Resilience in order to fudge the "oh, this was supposed to have been a crit" calculation and decide whether to effects like Enrage.
Subsequently, stuff that cannot crit can proc Enrage through Resilience, like standing in fires. Or at least it used to be able to. I still get Enraged occasionally in a raid by NPC stuff, and I think that includes spells which can't crit.
This is also the reason a "crit that wasn't" doesn't proc Enrage AND Blood Craze - when you're crit, both proc, but ordinary hits, the roll against Resilience is two separate rolls (one for each effect). The chance of both coming true at the same time is pretty small. There's a blue post about it someplace on that cardplace website.
Subsequently, stuff that cannot crit can proc Enrage through Resilience, like standing in fires. Or at least it used to be able to. I still get Enraged occasionally in a raid by NPC stuff, and I think that includes spells which can't crit.
This is also the reason a "crit that wasn't" doesn't proc Enrage AND Blood Craze - when you're crit, both proc, but ordinary hits, the roll against Resilience is two separate rolls (one for each effect). The chance of both coming true at the same time is pretty small. There's a blue post about it someplace on that cardplace website.
Yeah thats pretty much exactly how it works.
To simplify it further, assume you had sufficient resilience to "reduce your chance to be crit by 100%" What the game would do is assume that _every single_ attack made against you would have crit, but was prevented by your resilience.
In this case, every single time you take damage, you would receive both enrage and blood craze
To simplify it further, assume you had sufficient resilience to "reduce your chance to be crit by 100%" What the game would do is assume that _every single_ attack made against you would have crit, but was prevented by your resilience.
In this case, every single time you take damage, you would receive both enrage and blood craze
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Originally Posted by world
Yeah thats pretty much exactly how it works.
To simplify it further, assume you had sufficient resilience to "reduce your chance to be crit by 100%" What the game would do is assume that _every single_ attack made against you would have crit, but was prevented by your resilience. In this case, every single time you take damage, you would receive both enrage and blood craze |
I wouldn't count on that to be in game for long.
It seems very much intended, for PvP reasons, and it's been like that for quite some time.
Even with this effect, resilience is still a horrible stat to wear in PvE. I don't see any reason to change it, at least not right now. Unless they can somehow prevent this from happening in PvE without changing the effect in PvP.
Even with this effect, resilience is still a horrible stat to wear in PvE. I don't see any reason to change it, at least not right now. Unless they can somehow prevent this from happening in PvE without changing the effect in PvP.
The intention of the mechanic is to not devalue talents which are based on crit events (like enrage) with resilience making a PVP warrior who values enrage highly have to choose between his effective talents and his resilience PVP gear. The idea is to maintain crit based events like enrage at their pre-resilience proc rates while decreasing the crit rates through the resilience mechanics. If resilience roll currently has not check for "can crit/crit chance", there will likely be a modification/correction to it. Can a warlock proc enrage in a warrior wearing resilience through dots? That would be an enrage proc that would not normally happen as dots cannot crit. Thus, in the PVP environment, enrage actually gains in usefulness with resilience giving you and unintended proc rate. Now, if you had 50% crit chance reduction through resilience giving you a 50% chance to gain blood craze/enrage but only facing opponents who only natively have ~20-30% crit chance, your resilience has increased your proc rate above what would normally even be possible. This is important because in PVE, mobs/spells usually only have a 5-6% crit rate. It is very easy to surpass that with resilience.
You realise no PvE mobs spells crit ever, No Boss aoe damage ever ever crits.
Resillence in PvE is a totally worthless stat if your DPS'ing.
Resillence in PvE is a totally worthless stat if your DPS'ing.
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Originally Posted by Paa
You realise no PvE mobs spells crit ever, No Boss aoe damage ever ever crits.
Resillence in PvE is a totally worthless stat if your DPS'ing. |
I understand what's said reading through it again, I still dont think resillence is a worthwhile PvE stat at all as a dps warrior.
And at some point it may get bugfixed what's been described (Ive never seen it happen)
And at some point it may get bugfixed what's been described (Ive never seen it happen)
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Originally Posted by Paa
I understand what's said reading through it again, I still dont think resillence is a worthwhile PvE stat at all as a dps warrior.
And at some point it may get bugfixed what's been described (Ive never seen it happen) |
If resilience leads to an increase in talent crit based procs even during situations when it is not intended (ie triggering on uncrittable events like Dots), it would seem to me to be incorrectly implemented and not inline with the original intention. As such, I could see the implementation being fixed.
Edited onPatch 2.1.3
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Originally Posted by Grymm
If resilience leads to an increase in talent crit based procs even during situations when it is not intended (ie triggering on uncrittable events like Dots), it would seem to me to be incorrectly implemented and not inline with the original intention. As such, I could see the implementation being fixed.
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Last edited by Gokey : 09/07/07 at 3:08 PM.
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Originally Posted by Paa
I understand what's said reading through it again, I still dont think resillence is a worthwhile PvE stat at all as a dps warrior.
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It's like a nice middleground set that you can dps in without losing too much and, if something goes wrong, pick up and survive trash adds in a pinch. It's certainly nothing i'd wear full time or to tank anything serious, but I take on trash with Gladiator's gear rather than itemrack in my full tanking suit.
After all it is my highest HP gear I have laying around that renders me uncrittable without gimping my damage or my threat.
I'm pretty sure I have occasionally procced enrage off NPC spells, they've fixed most of the really obvious stuff (like standing near braziers in IF, or fall damage), so it's mostly physical damage and maybe one or two spells they might have overlooked. I'm almost certain i've never procced it off a dot.
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Originally Posted by world
With regards to wearing Gladiator's gear while dps'ing, it's not actually as bad as you might initially think. A lot of mobs/bosses do at least some form of raidwide damage that can't be avoided, and the way resilience has been coded, what this means is that this damage can proc things like Enrage (and to a lesser extent Blood Craze).
Against a fight like Gorefiend, as a 33/28 bloodfrenzy spec, i was getting a significant number of Enrage procs from the Shadowbolts flying around. Now obviously, resilience will be nowhere near as good as offensive stats point-for-point, but it is still better than nothing. |
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Originally Posted by Garre
I know everyone has their own personal gear choices, but I'm curious as to what most of you see as the most powerful trinket combination for raid DPS between the following: [Bloodlust Brooch], [Dragonspine Trophy], [Tsunami Talisman] and [Solarian's Sapphire] (with Imp BS)
At the present time I'd guess [Dragonspine Trophy] and [Tsunami Talisman], but post-patch I'm not too sure. Even after the haste nerf and hidden cooldown of [Dragonspine Trophy] next patch, is it still worth equipping over anything else? |
However, if I had to choose from only among those four, I would prefer DST/TT for personal DPS. Still haven't gotten a Sapphire so I can't speak to it from experience.
I assume that once I get a Sapphire, it'll pretty much never come off when I am in a dps group. The group dps buff is huge. I certainly would love to pair it with a Tsunami. Given the competition for the trinkets, I can more or less expect to only get one so whichever one I get will be it.
Could anyone tell me please, if I have a enhancement shaman in my group, so I get unleashed Rage, what is a better gem to use, 10 str or 5str and 5 crit? And what if I don't have an enhancement shaman? So fully raidbuffed I mean
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Originally Posted by Apfelkäse
Could anyone tell me please, if I have a enhancement shaman in my group, so I get unleashed Rage, what is a better gem to use, 10 str or 5str and 5 crit? And what if I don't have an enhancement shaman? So fully raidbuffed I mean
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Edited onPatch 2.1.3
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Originally Posted by Apfelkäse
Could anyone tell me please, if I have a enhancement shaman in my group, so I get unleashed Rage, what is a better gem to use, 10 str or 5str and 5 crit? And what if I don't have an enhancement shaman? So fully raidbuffed I mean
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Last edited by Natural : 09/07/07 at 6:25 PM.
Natural, I think you are wrong as far as the gem choice with his buffed stats the crit gem is essentially unnecessary because flurry will be up most of the time and the extra AP turns into a better chunk of damage. For me, After the standard 33% Crit, 200 Hit, I go pure AP because I see it as the only stat worth stacking at that point. So, to me, the 10STR is far better than the 5str 5crit.
Edited onPatch 2.1.3
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Originally Posted by Daeco
Natural, I think you are wrong as far as the gem choice with his buffed stats the crit gem is essentially unnecessary because flurry will be up most of the time and the extra AP turns into a better chunk of damage. For me, After the standard 33% Crit, 200 Hit, I go pure AP because I see it as the only stat worth stacking at that point. So, to me, the 10STR is far better than the 5str 5crit.
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Last edited by Natural : 09/07/07 at 11:33 PM.
I should have been more specific, 33% unbuffed Crit, I missed that "buffed" in your original response. Then I do agree with you about gem choice, with a slight preference to the crit gem since he is lacking a bit of crit.
I'm giving up on my warrior since my guild fell apart.
I have BT/Hyjal gear but not even guilds on Lurker will take me because they either have too many DPS warriors already or they refuse to take them to raids.
/slitwrist
I have BT/Hyjal gear but not even guilds on Lurker will take me because they either have too many DPS warriors already or they refuse to take them to raids.
/slitwrist
Guys (and maybe some girls) out there, why are so many of you negative? This isnt the first time warriors gets hit by the nerfbat, and look at us, we shall rise and smash stuff harder then ever before. Ill never give up on my warrior, not until Blizzard either removes it from the game or something.
We shall fight, and continue to fight! We are warriors !!
We shall fight, and continue to fight! We are warriors !!
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Originally Posted by Fishhead
I'm giving up on my warrior since my guild fell apart.
I have BT/Hyjal gear but not even guilds on Lurker will take me because they either have too many DPS warriors already or they refuse to take them to raids. /slitwrist |
This is "future of a dps warrior" thread.
Not "I can't get a guild as a dps warrior thread".
I've picked up some new gear over the past few weeks and once again become inspired to check out 33/28 because of the insane numbers Serida is still pumping out.
I've got a tough choice with one piece of gear though - Bloodlust Brooch vs Hourglass of the Unraveller.
Stats with BB - 1968 AP, 30.3 Crit
Stats with HU - 1896 AP, 31.75 Crit
I'm leaning towards using Hourglass simply for a higher chance to keep flurry up, as with less Windfury procs the faster I can swing the better (and more sword spec procs!).
What input would you guys have on this?
I've got a tough choice with one piece of gear though - Bloodlust Brooch vs Hourglass of the Unraveller.
Stats with BB - 1968 AP, 30.3 Crit
Stats with HU - 1896 AP, 31.75 Crit
I'm leaning towards using Hourglass simply for a higher chance to keep flurry up, as with less Windfury procs the faster I can swing the better (and more sword spec procs!).
What input would you guys have on this?
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Originally Posted by Eledorian
This is "future of a dps warrior" thread.
Not "I can't get a guild as a dps warrior thread". |
Why? You say you dont find a guild because they have TOO MANY warriors. Since u need 1-2 Warrior tanks, 2-3 DPS Warriors is much, because 5 warriors are 20% of the raid setup classes
Edited onPatch 2.1.3
As it is, i am beginning to get back into raiding again, since i quit when The Burning Crusade was released.
A short while ago, i was playing as 3/53/5, but have since changed to 17/41/3, and have essentially, the best gear i can obtain before any serious twenty-five mans, or Karazhan.
I am simply seeking input. I attended Gruul's several days ago, and the results i ended up seeing, were not quite what i had hoped for. Essentially, my question is, how much of a difference can i expect twenty-five man gear to make to the amount of damage i deal per rage point i spend?
Or, could i be maxmising my DPS in other ways with the seemingly limited stats i get from my current gear? Should i be sacrificing some hit in order to boost AP? Or, should i be aiming for more crit so as to maximise flurry uptime?
Ultimately, i don't know if it's simply my playstyle that's holding me back, or my gear.
A short while ago, i was playing as 3/53/5, but have since changed to 17/41/3, and have essentially, the best gear i can obtain before any serious twenty-five mans, or Karazhan.
I am simply seeking input. I attended Gruul's several days ago, and the results i ended up seeing, were not quite what i had hoped for. Essentially, my question is, how much of a difference can i expect twenty-five man gear to make to the amount of damage i deal per rage point i spend?
Or, could i be maxmising my DPS in other ways with the seemingly limited stats i get from my current gear? Should i be sacrificing some hit in order to boost AP? Or, should i be aiming for more crit so as to maximise flurry uptime?
Ultimately, i don't know if it's simply my playstyle that's holding me back, or my gear.
Last edited by Weightyox : 09/08/07 at 2:19 PM. Reason: Posed my situation more effectively, and in turn made the sentence sound more fluent.
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Originally Posted by Natural
FYI, with 33% crit you still have a 28.7% chance to have 3 non crits in a row, 19% chance to have 4 non crits in a row. Instant attacks fill the gap but not completely when you consider haste and dual wielding. You do still have a lot of flurry downtime.
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- First, what is this 'crit cap'? If I'm not mistaken, this is based on hit rating. If a formula is available, that would be most helpful.
- Second, what hit/crit would one need to reduce their chances of having 3 non-crits in a row below 10% ?
Edited onPatch 2.1.3
I'm bored and figured I'd answer your questions.
Crit Cap:
The average level 73 boss will have a hit table, I believe, which looks like this (assuming you have 20% crit and no hit, and you are attacking from behind):
0-28:Miss
28-33.6: Dodge
33.6-58.6: Glancing
58.6-78.6: Crit
78.6-100: Hit
I assume you know the basics of the hit table, like how adding 1% crit removes 1% hit from the table. The crit cap occurs when there is no more hit to remove. In this situation, the crit cap would occur at 41.4% crit, assuming you have not hit. Each 1% hit you add would increase the hit cap by 1%, also.
The chance for 3 attacks to not crit in a row is simple to calculate. It's just their chance to not hit, cubed. This way, you can set up a simple equation to calculate this. In your case, you wanted to know when there was a 10% chance for 3 attacks in a row to not crit. That equation would like .10=x^3. When you solve it, you find that it should take 53.6% crit for there to be a 10% chance to not crit 3 attacks in a row.
You than compare this to the hit table discussed earlier. Since there is a cap at 41.4% crit, and each 1% hit added increases this cap by 1%, you would need 12.2% hit to go along with that 53.6% crit.
Hope that helps (and that I didn't make any stupid mistakes >.<).
Crit Cap:
The average level 73 boss will have a hit table, I believe, which looks like this (assuming you have 20% crit and no hit, and you are attacking from behind):
0-28:Miss
28-33.6: Dodge
33.6-58.6: Glancing
58.6-78.6: Crit
78.6-100: Hit
I assume you know the basics of the hit table, like how adding 1% crit removes 1% hit from the table. The crit cap occurs when there is no more hit to remove. In this situation, the crit cap would occur at 41.4% crit, assuming you have not hit. Each 1% hit you add would increase the hit cap by 1%, also.
The chance for 3 attacks to not crit in a row is simple to calculate. It's just their chance to not hit, cubed. This way, you can set up a simple equation to calculate this. In your case, you wanted to know when there was a 10% chance for 3 attacks in a row to not crit. That equation would like .10=x^3. When you solve it, you find that it should take 53.6% crit for there to be a 10% chance to not crit 3 attacks in a row.
You than compare this to the hit table discussed earlier. Since there is a cap at 41.4% crit, and each 1% hit added increases this cap by 1%, you would need 12.2% hit to go along with that 53.6% crit.
Hope that helps (and that I didn't make any stupid mistakes >.<).
Last edited by Tiburon11 : 09/08/07 at 3:54 PM.
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Originally Posted by Fishhead
Meh, my post fits the thread title. The future of DPS warriors is to be replaced by other DPS classes as far as I can tell.
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And for essentially a hybrid dps class, we bring quite formidable dps.
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Originally Posted by Weightyox
As it is, i am beginning to get back into raiding again, since i quit when The Burning Crusade was released.
A short while ago, i was playing as 3/53/5, but have since changed to 17/41/3, and have essentially, the best gear i can obtain before any serious twenty-five mans, or Karazhan. I am simply seeking input. I attended Gruul's several days ago, and the results i ended up seeing, were not quite what i had hoped for. Essentially, my question is, how much of a difference can i expect twenty-five man gear to make to the amount of damage i deal per rage point i spend? Or, could i be maxmising my DPS in other ways with the seemingly limited stats i get from my current gear? Should i be sacrificing some hit in order to boost AP? Or, should i be aiming for more crit so as to maximise flurry uptime? Ultimately, i don't know if it's simply my playstyle that's holding me back, or my gear. |
You've focused far too much on +hit and your other stats are badly lacking (Especially crit)
Some of your gems are vendor bought and you could look at some different items/enchants to raise your crit/AP without dropping too low on +hit (Around 200 is perfectly fine)
Your spec needs some work aswell, Im unsure why you would pick 3/3 TM in the protection tree and not have a pvp spec or have improved overpower.
Anyway you sit in berserker stance permantly while dps'ing as a warrior (Unless you need to help with thunderclap..)
You could change some talent points around here and there (Improved execute is awesome)
Also im going to hope your not using rend for dps as you have talent points in it im sort of scared that you might actually be..
I'm usually 17/44/0 for fury dps and take 5/5 parry 3/3 imp HS 3/3 deep wounds 1/1 anger management 2/2 impale in the arms tree for general tanking/dps'ing talents that actually benefit me in a raid.
Everything Paa has stated will help. If you're looking to maximize your performance you really need to invest in quality gems. Many of the blue items you have are not the best available from normal 5 mans, let alone when you consider heroics. Get an hourglass or bloodlust brooch in your trinket slots. You can get better enchants on a number of items too, +6 stats to chest and +15 strength to gloves for example.
ive been thinking about this but i cant decide because i dont know the math behind it. could anyone enlighten me about a good OH enchant for a fury warrior. basically i see it as Mongoose, 20 str, or 7 dmg. some ppl have said 7 dmg is good but im not sure.
I ran a couple tests with that simulator that was posted earlier. I ran some overnight with the same setup but different weapon speed combinations(same weapon dps). I also ran a few with different levels of hit but the same weapon speeds.
Assuming the sim is accurate, there were a couple trends:
1. Slow MH are best.
Most people already knew this. I suspect this is the case until you have so much rage that your HS is limited by MH swing speed rather than rage. Since the test also had Mongoose on the MH, as most do, that probably helped even more.
2. Combined with a Slow MH the speed of the OH has very little effect on DPS, <1%.
With all the posts, WoW forums and here, claiming slow or fast is better, it doesn't seem to matter.
Now these results all depend on the simulator being accurate of course, but watching the combat log it seems to work pretty well. I also can't find any theorycraft that has a valid reason to doubt the results. If anyone has anything either way please post it., I may do some more specific testing later.
Assuming the sim is accurate, there were a couple trends:
1. Slow MH are best.
Most people already knew this. I suspect this is the case until you have so much rage that your HS is limited by MH swing speed rather than rage. Since the test also had Mongoose on the MH, as most do, that probably helped even more.
2. Combined with a Slow MH the speed of the OH has very little effect on DPS, <1%.
With all the posts, WoW forums and here, claiming slow or fast is better, it doesn't seem to matter.
Now these results all depend on the simulator being accurate of course, but watching the combat log it seems to work pretty well. I also can't find any theorycraft that has a valid reason to doubt the results. If anyone has anything either way please post it., I may do some more specific testing later.
Hi, first time poster.
I was wondering at what point to prioritize STR/AP over +HIT. I've heard many arguments that say that at 8.6% you can stop stacking +HIT over Crit and STR/AP but then I see alot of posts suggesting that ~200 +HIT is when to stop stacking it.
I understand that +HIT will increase my off-hand auto attack damage after 8.6% is reached but is the Rage generation going to boost my dps more than the added AP from STR/AP?
Thanks in advance
I was wondering at what point to prioritize STR/AP over +HIT. I've heard many arguments that say that at 8.6% you can stop stacking +HIT over Crit and STR/AP but then I see alot of posts suggesting that ~200 +HIT is when to stop stacking it.
I understand that +HIT will increase my off-hand auto attack damage after 8.6% is reached but is the Rage generation going to boost my dps more than the added AP from STR/AP?
Thanks in advance
I think your conclusions are correct. I ran a few tests with my own simulator right now.
My Results are:
The difference between a season 2 sword and dagger are > 50 dps for my gear and buffs. Surprisingly the gain from windfury stays the same, but whirl wind dps goes down by roughly a third. Also overall dps is reduced by the lower Mongoose uptime, because specials suffer from the decreased proc chance.
The difference between a 1.5 speed offhand and a 2.6 speed offhand are neglectible. The faster the offhand the more often +Weapondamage is applied but a faster offhand also seems to decrease windfury procs by a tininess. I cant see why at the moment, perhaps due to flurry mechanics. It probably doesnt matter, since the difference between the two are 0,1% for my gear and buffs. I think this can be seen as insignificant.
And if you have zero +Weapondamage the difference is 0.4% as I calculated right now, so even then offhand speed doesnt matter.
I still prefer a faster offhand due to the more consistent rage gain.
PS: Its my first post and I am from germany, please excuse my english.
My Results are:
The difference between a season 2 sword and dagger are > 50 dps for my gear and buffs. Surprisingly the gain from windfury stays the same, but whirl wind dps goes down by roughly a third. Also overall dps is reduced by the lower Mongoose uptime, because specials suffer from the decreased proc chance.
The difference between a 1.5 speed offhand and a 2.6 speed offhand are neglectible. The faster the offhand the more often +Weapondamage is applied but a faster offhand also seems to decrease windfury procs by a tininess. I cant see why at the moment, perhaps due to flurry mechanics. It probably doesnt matter, since the difference between the two are 0,1% for my gear and buffs. I think this can be seen as insignificant.
And if you have zero +Weapondamage the difference is 0.4% as I calculated right now, so even then offhand speed doesnt matter.
I still prefer a faster offhand due to the more consistent rage gain.
PS: Its my first post and I am from germany, please excuse my english.
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Originally Posted by Bigbillybeef
Hi, first time poster.
I was wondering at what point to prioritize STR/AP over +HIT. I've heard many arguments that say that at 8.6% you can stop stacking +HIT over Crit and STR/AP but then I see alot of posts suggesting that ~200 +HIT is when to stop stacking it. I understand that +HIT will increase my off-hand auto attack damage after 8.6% is reached but is the Rage generation going to boost my dps more than the added AP from STR/AP? |
And hit will help all white dmg, not just your OH.
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Originally Posted by Garre
I know everyone has their own personal gear choices, but I'm curious as to what most of you see as the most powerful trinket combination for raid DPS between the following: [Bloodlust Brooch], [Dragonspine Trophy], [Tsunami Talisman] and [Solarian's Sapphire] (with Imp BS)
At the present time I'd guess [Dragonspine Trophy] and [Tsunami Talisman], but post-patch I'm not too sure. Even after the haste nerf and hidden cooldown of [Dragonspine Trophy] next patch, is it still worth equipping over anything else? |
However, if I had to choose from only among those four, I would prefer DST/TT for personal DPS. Still haven't gotten a Sapphire so I can't speak to it from experience.
I assume that once I get a Sapphire, it'll pretty much never come off when I am in a dps group. The group dps buff is huge. I certainly would love to pair it with a Tsunami. Given the competition for the trinkets, I can more or less expect to only get one so whichever one I get will be it.
Could anyone tell me please, if I have a enhancement shaman in my group, so I get unleashed Rage, what is a better gem to use, 10 str or 5str and 5 crit? And what if I don't have an enhancement shaman? So fully raidbuffed I mean
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Originally Posted by Apfelkäse
Could anyone tell me please, if I have a enhancement shaman in my group, so I get unleashed Rage, what is a better gem to use, 10 str or 5str and 5 crit? And what if I don't have an enhancement shaman? So fully raidbuffed I mean
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Edited onPatch 2.1.3
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Originally Posted by Apfelkäse
Could anyone tell me please, if I have a enhancement shaman in my group, so I get unleashed Rage, what is a better gem to use, 10 str or 5str and 5 crit? And what if I don't have an enhancement shaman? So fully raidbuffed I mean
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Last edited by Natural : 09/07/07 at 6:25 PM.
Natural, I think you are wrong as far as the gem choice with his buffed stats the crit gem is essentially unnecessary because flurry will be up most of the time and the extra AP turns into a better chunk of damage. For me, After the standard 33% Crit, 200 Hit, I go pure AP because I see it as the only stat worth stacking at that point. So, to me, the 10STR is far better than the 5str 5crit.
Edited onPatch 2.1.3
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Originally Posted by Daeco
Natural, I think you are wrong as far as the gem choice with his buffed stats the crit gem is essentially unnecessary because flurry will be up most of the time and the extra AP turns into a better chunk of damage. For me, After the standard 33% Crit, 200 Hit, I go pure AP because I see it as the only stat worth stacking at that point. So, to me, the 10STR is far better than the 5str 5crit.
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Last edited by Natural : 09/07/07 at 11:33 PM.
I should have been more specific, 33% unbuffed Crit, I missed that "buffed" in your original response. Then I do agree with you about gem choice, with a slight preference to the crit gem since he is lacking a bit of crit.
I'm giving up on my warrior since my guild fell apart.
I have BT/Hyjal gear but not even guilds on Lurker will take me because they either have too many DPS warriors already or they refuse to take them to raids.
/slitwrist
I have BT/Hyjal gear but not even guilds on Lurker will take me because they either have too many DPS warriors already or they refuse to take them to raids.
/slitwrist
Guys (and maybe some girls) out there, why are so many of you negative? This isnt the first time warriors gets hit by the nerfbat, and look at us, we shall rise and smash stuff harder then ever before. Ill never give up on my warrior, not until Blizzard either removes it from the game or something.
We shall fight, and continue to fight! We are warriors !!
We shall fight, and continue to fight! We are warriors !!
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Originally Posted by Fishhead
I'm giving up on my warrior since my guild fell apart.
I have BT/Hyjal gear but not even guilds on Lurker will take me because they either have too many DPS warriors already or they refuse to take them to raids. /slitwrist |
This is "future of a dps warrior" thread.
Not "I can't get a guild as a dps warrior thread".
I've picked up some new gear over the past few weeks and once again become inspired to check out 33/28 because of the insane numbers Serida is still pumping out.
I've got a tough choice with one piece of gear though - Bloodlust Brooch vs Hourglass of the Unraveller.
Stats with BB - 1968 AP, 30.3 Crit
Stats with HU - 1896 AP, 31.75 Crit
I'm leaning towards using Hourglass simply for a higher chance to keep flurry up, as with less Windfury procs the faster I can swing the better (and more sword spec procs!).
What input would you guys have on this?
I've got a tough choice with one piece of gear though - Bloodlust Brooch vs Hourglass of the Unraveller.
Stats with BB - 1968 AP, 30.3 Crit
Stats with HU - 1896 AP, 31.75 Crit
I'm leaning towards using Hourglass simply for a higher chance to keep flurry up, as with less Windfury procs the faster I can swing the better (and more sword spec procs!).
What input would you guys have on this?
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Originally Posted by Eledorian
This is "future of a dps warrior" thread.
Not "I can't get a guild as a dps warrior thread". |
Why? You say you dont find a guild because they have TOO MANY warriors. Since u need 1-2 Warrior tanks, 2-3 DPS Warriors is much, because 5 warriors are 20% of the raid setup classes
Edited onPatch 2.1.3
As it is, i am beginning to get back into raiding again, since i quit when The Burning Crusade was released.
A short while ago, i was playing as 3/53/5, but have since changed to 17/41/3, and have essentially, the best gear i can obtain before any serious twenty-five mans, or Karazhan.
I am simply seeking input. I attended Gruul's several days ago, and the results i ended up seeing, were not quite what i had hoped for. Essentially, my question is, how much of a difference can i expect twenty-five man gear to make to the amount of damage i deal per rage point i spend?
Or, could i be maxmising my DPS in other ways with the seemingly limited stats i get from my current gear? Should i be sacrificing some hit in order to boost AP? Or, should i be aiming for more crit so as to maximise flurry uptime?
Ultimately, i don't know if it's simply my playstyle that's holding me back, or my gear.
A short while ago, i was playing as 3/53/5, but have since changed to 17/41/3, and have essentially, the best gear i can obtain before any serious twenty-five mans, or Karazhan.
I am simply seeking input. I attended Gruul's several days ago, and the results i ended up seeing, were not quite what i had hoped for. Essentially, my question is, how much of a difference can i expect twenty-five man gear to make to the amount of damage i deal per rage point i spend?
Or, could i be maxmising my DPS in other ways with the seemingly limited stats i get from my current gear? Should i be sacrificing some hit in order to boost AP? Or, should i be aiming for more crit so as to maximise flurry uptime?
Ultimately, i don't know if it's simply my playstyle that's holding me back, or my gear.
Last edited by Weightyox : 09/08/07 at 2:19 PM. Reason: Posed my situation more effectively, and in turn made the sentence sound more fluent.
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Originally Posted by Natural
FYI, with 33% crit you still have a 28.7% chance to have 3 non crits in a row, 19% chance to have 4 non crits in a row. Instant attacks fill the gap but not completely when you consider haste and dual wielding. You do still have a lot of flurry downtime.
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- First, what is this 'crit cap'? If I'm not mistaken, this is based on hit rating. If a formula is available, that would be most helpful.
- Second, what hit/crit would one need to reduce their chances of having 3 non-crits in a row below 10% ?
Edited onPatch 2.1.3
I'm bored and figured I'd answer your questions.
Crit Cap:
The average level 73 boss will have a hit table, I believe, which looks like this (assuming you have 20% crit and no hit, and you are attacking from behind):
0-28:Miss
28-33.6: Dodge
33.6-58.6: Glancing
58.6-78.6: Crit
78.6-100: Hit
I assume you know the basics of the hit table, like how adding 1% crit removes 1% hit from the table. The crit cap occurs when there is no more hit to remove. In this situation, the crit cap would occur at 41.4% crit, assuming you have not hit. Each 1% hit you add would increase the hit cap by 1%, also.
The chance for 3 attacks to not crit in a row is simple to calculate. It's just their chance to not hit, cubed. This way, you can set up a simple equation to calculate this. In your case, you wanted to know when there was a 10% chance for 3 attacks in a row to not crit. That equation would like .10=x^3. When you solve it, you find that it should take 53.6% crit for there to be a 10% chance to not crit 3 attacks in a row.
You than compare this to the hit table discussed earlier. Since there is a cap at 41.4% crit, and each 1% hit added increases this cap by 1%, you would need 12.2% hit to go along with that 53.6% crit.
Hope that helps (and that I didn't make any stupid mistakes >.<).
Crit Cap:
The average level 73 boss will have a hit table, I believe, which looks like this (assuming you have 20% crit and no hit, and you are attacking from behind):
0-28:Miss
28-33.6: Dodge
33.6-58.6: Glancing
58.6-78.6: Crit
78.6-100: Hit
I assume you know the basics of the hit table, like how adding 1% crit removes 1% hit from the table. The crit cap occurs when there is no more hit to remove. In this situation, the crit cap would occur at 41.4% crit, assuming you have not hit. Each 1% hit you add would increase the hit cap by 1%, also.
The chance for 3 attacks to not crit in a row is simple to calculate. It's just their chance to not hit, cubed. This way, you can set up a simple equation to calculate this. In your case, you wanted to know when there was a 10% chance for 3 attacks in a row to not crit. That equation would like .10=x^3. When you solve it, you find that it should take 53.6% crit for there to be a 10% chance to not crit 3 attacks in a row.
You than compare this to the hit table discussed earlier. Since there is a cap at 41.4% crit, and each 1% hit added increases this cap by 1%, you would need 12.2% hit to go along with that 53.6% crit.
Hope that helps (and that I didn't make any stupid mistakes >.<).
Last edited by Tiburon11 : 09/08/07 at 3:54 PM.
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Originally Posted by Fishhead
Meh, my post fits the thread title. The future of DPS warriors is to be replaced by other DPS classes as far as I can tell.
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And for essentially a hybrid dps class, we bring quite formidable dps.
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Originally Posted by Weightyox
As it is, i am beginning to get back into raiding again, since i quit when The Burning Crusade was released.
A short while ago, i was playing as 3/53/5, but have since changed to 17/41/3, and have essentially, the best gear i can obtain before any serious twenty-five mans, or Karazhan. I am simply seeking input. I attended Gruul's several days ago, and the results i ended up seeing, were not quite what i had hoped for. Essentially, my question is, how much of a difference can i expect twenty-five man gear to make to the amount of damage i deal per rage point i spend? Or, could i be maxmising my DPS in other ways with the seemingly limited stats i get from my current gear? Should i be sacrificing some hit in order to boost AP? Or, should i be aiming for more crit so as to maximise flurry uptime? Ultimately, i don't know if it's simply my playstyle that's holding me back, or my gear. |
You've focused far too much on +hit and your other stats are badly lacking (Especially crit)
Some of your gems are vendor bought and you could look at some different items/enchants to raise your crit/AP without dropping too low on +hit (Around 200 is perfectly fine)
Your spec needs some work aswell, Im unsure why you would pick 3/3 TM in the protection tree and not have a pvp spec or have improved overpower.
Anyway you sit in berserker stance permantly while dps'ing as a warrior (Unless you need to help with thunderclap..)
You could change some talent points around here and there (Improved execute is awesome)
Also im going to hope your not using rend for dps as you have talent points in it im sort of scared that you might actually be..
I'm usually 17/44/0 for fury dps and take 5/5 parry 3/3 imp HS 3/3 deep wounds 1/1 anger management 2/2 impale in the arms tree for general tanking/dps'ing talents that actually benefit me in a raid.
Everything Paa has stated will help. If you're looking to maximize your performance you really need to invest in quality gems. Many of the blue items you have are not the best available from normal 5 mans, let alone when you consider heroics. Get an hourglass or bloodlust brooch in your trinket slots. You can get better enchants on a number of items too, +6 stats to chest and +15 strength to gloves for example.
ive been thinking about this but i cant decide because i dont know the math behind it. could anyone enlighten me about a good OH enchant for a fury warrior. basically i see it as Mongoose, 20 str, or 7 dmg. some ppl have said 7 dmg is good but im not sure.
I ran a couple tests with that simulator that was posted earlier. I ran some overnight with the same setup but different weapon speed combinations(same weapon dps). I also ran a few with different levels of hit but the same weapon speeds.
Assuming the sim is accurate, there were a couple trends:
1. Slow MH are best.
Most people already knew this. I suspect this is the case until you have so much rage that your HS is limited by MH swing speed rather than rage. Since the test also had Mongoose on the MH, as most do, that probably helped even more.
2. Combined with a Slow MH the speed of the OH has very little effect on DPS, <1%.
With all the posts, WoW forums and here, claiming slow or fast is better, it doesn't seem to matter.
Now these results all depend on the simulator being accurate of course, but watching the combat log it seems to work pretty well. I also can't find any theorycraft that has a valid reason to doubt the results. If anyone has anything either way please post it., I may do some more specific testing later.
Assuming the sim is accurate, there were a couple trends:
1. Slow MH are best.
Most people already knew this. I suspect this is the case until you have so much rage that your HS is limited by MH swing speed rather than rage. Since the test also had Mongoose on the MH, as most do, that probably helped even more.
2. Combined with a Slow MH the speed of the OH has very little effect on DPS, <1%.
With all the posts, WoW forums and here, claiming slow or fast is better, it doesn't seem to matter.
Now these results all depend on the simulator being accurate of course, but watching the combat log it seems to work pretty well. I also can't find any theorycraft that has a valid reason to doubt the results. If anyone has anything either way please post it., I may do some more specific testing later.
Hi, first time poster.
I was wondering at what point to prioritize STR/AP over +HIT. I've heard many arguments that say that at 8.6% you can stop stacking +HIT over Crit and STR/AP but then I see alot of posts suggesting that ~200 +HIT is when to stop stacking it.
I understand that +HIT will increase my off-hand auto attack damage after 8.6% is reached but is the Rage generation going to boost my dps more than the added AP from STR/AP?
Thanks in advance
I was wondering at what point to prioritize STR/AP over +HIT. I've heard many arguments that say that at 8.6% you can stop stacking +HIT over Crit and STR/AP but then I see alot of posts suggesting that ~200 +HIT is when to stop stacking it.
I understand that +HIT will increase my off-hand auto attack damage after 8.6% is reached but is the Rage generation going to boost my dps more than the added AP from STR/AP?
Thanks in advance
I think your conclusions are correct. I ran a few tests with my own simulator right now.
My Results are:
The difference between a season 2 sword and dagger are > 50 dps for my gear and buffs. Surprisingly the gain from windfury stays the same, but whirl wind dps goes down by roughly a third. Also overall dps is reduced by the lower Mongoose uptime, because specials suffer from the decreased proc chance.
The difference between a 1.5 speed offhand and a 2.6 speed offhand are neglectible. The faster the offhand the more often +Weapondamage is applied but a faster offhand also seems to decrease windfury procs by a tininess. I cant see why at the moment, perhaps due to flurry mechanics. It probably doesnt matter, since the difference between the two are 0,1% for my gear and buffs. I think this can be seen as insignificant.
And if you have zero +Weapondamage the difference is 0.4% as I calculated right now, so even then offhand speed doesnt matter.
I still prefer a faster offhand due to the more consistent rage gain.
PS: Its my first post and I am from germany, please excuse my english.
My Results are:
The difference between a season 2 sword and dagger are > 50 dps for my gear and buffs. Surprisingly the gain from windfury stays the same, but whirl wind dps goes down by roughly a third. Also overall dps is reduced by the lower Mongoose uptime, because specials suffer from the decreased proc chance.
The difference between a 1.5 speed offhand and a 2.6 speed offhand are neglectible. The faster the offhand the more often +Weapondamage is applied but a faster offhand also seems to decrease windfury procs by a tininess. I cant see why at the moment, perhaps due to flurry mechanics. It probably doesnt matter, since the difference between the two are 0,1% for my gear and buffs. I think this can be seen as insignificant.
And if you have zero +Weapondamage the difference is 0.4% as I calculated right now, so even then offhand speed doesnt matter.
I still prefer a faster offhand due to the more consistent rage gain.
PS: Its my first post and I am from germany, please excuse my english.
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Originally Posted by Bigbillybeef
Hi, first time poster.
I was wondering at what point to prioritize STR/AP over +HIT. I've heard many arguments that say that at 8.6% you can stop stacking +HIT over Crit and STR/AP but then I see alot of posts suggesting that ~200 +HIT is when to stop stacking it. I understand that +HIT will increase my off-hand auto attack damage after 8.6% is reached but is the Rage generation going to boost my dps more than the added AP from STR/AP? |
And hit will help all white dmg, not just your OH.
Edited onPatch 2.1.3
I calculate flurry uptime in the following way:
1/(MHSpd/1.25) - Flurried MH swings per second
1/(OHSpd/1.25) - Flurried OH swings per second
Total Swings per Second (TS)
3/TS = Time period for 3 flurried swings (tp)
tp/6 = Blood thirsts per Flurry Cycle
tp/9 = WW per cycle
.2*(tp*Flurried MH swings per second) = WFs per cycle
X = other specials that can crit per flurry cycle (spamstring)
Total Bonus Swings per Flurry Cycle (BS)
Flurry Uptime = 1-(1-Crit%)^(3+BS)
So if you get in 1 special per flurry cycle (which you probably don't), you would have flurry chance of 1-(1-crit%)^(3+1). I think the spreadsheets use this math as well. The point is your flurry up time can be maximized/optimized through slower weapons for more bonus swings as well as higher crit chance. As your crit chance increases, the increase in Flurry uptime will taper off as it approaches 100%.
I also vaguely calculated some DPS values (neglecting flurry) for Str vs. Crit on itemization points. I breifly modeled unflurried autoattack, BT, and WW for .15 (miss + dodge), values of ap 2000-4500, crit from .3-.41, glancing blows, 0 mitigation on target, basic Imp/Fury spec. For all values of ap, starting with a 30% crit chance, 10 AP returned 2.544 DPS (.56 dps per itemization points w/ kings). At 40% crit chance, 10 ap was .616 dps per itemization point. Given the high flurry up times of .3 and .40 crit, added crit returns limited flurry uptime increase. Modeling flurry in would then increase DPS based around higher return on AP rather than Crit. At 2000 ap, 1% crit yielded 6.54 dps (.3 dps per itemization point). At 4500 ap, the return rises to .55 dps per itemization point. So, according to what gear I have (I theoretically peak my AP in the low 4k range during a raid and almost always above 3500, str is always preferrable to crit point for point. At my peak values, the crit is competitively valued before I account for flurry. My conclusion for gearing is to keep up a decent crit and stack AP. Hit I will take as I get gear with it. With some decent raid gear (I could use T5 pants, eradication bracers), I'll hit 200 hit rating without effort which is adequate. I don't clearly see a point above 30% crit but below 4500 ap peak where stacking crit is superior. AP tends to have a linear return increasing dps by a fairly flat amount. Crit has a scaling return increasing DPS by a fraction of your DPS.
1/(MHSpd/1.25) - Flurried MH swings per second
1/(OHSpd/1.25) - Flurried OH swings per second
Total Swings per Second (TS)
3/TS = Time period for 3 flurried swings (tp)
tp/6 = Blood thirsts per Flurry Cycle
tp/9 = WW per cycle
.2*(tp*Flurried MH swings per second) = WFs per cycle
X = other specials that can crit per flurry cycle (spamstring)
Total Bonus Swings per Flurry Cycle (BS)
Flurry Uptime = 1-(1-Crit%)^(3+BS)
So if you get in 1 special per flurry cycle (which you probably don't), you would have flurry chance of 1-(1-crit%)^(3+1). I think the spreadsheets use this math as well. The point is your flurry up time can be maximized/optimized through slower weapons for more bonus swings as well as higher crit chance. As your crit chance increases, the increase in Flurry uptime will taper off as it approaches 100%.
I also vaguely calculated some DPS values (neglecting flurry) for Str vs. Crit on itemization points. I breifly modeled unflurried autoattack, BT, and WW for .15 (miss + dodge), values of ap 2000-4500, crit from .3-.41, glancing blows, 0 mitigation on target, basic Imp/Fury spec. For all values of ap, starting with a 30% crit chance, 10 AP returned 2.544 DPS (.56 dps per itemization points w/ kings). At 40% crit chance, 10 ap was .616 dps per itemization point. Given the high flurry up times of .3 and .40 crit, added crit returns limited flurry uptime increase. Modeling flurry in would then increase DPS based around higher return on AP rather than Crit. At 2000 ap, 1% crit yielded 6.54 dps (.3 dps per itemization point). At 4500 ap, the return rises to .55 dps per itemization point. So, according to what gear I have (I theoretically peak my AP in the low 4k range during a raid and almost always above 3500, str is always preferrable to crit point for point. At my peak values, the crit is competitively valued before I account for flurry. My conclusion for gearing is to keep up a decent crit and stack AP. Hit I will take as I get gear with it. With some decent raid gear (I could use T5 pants, eradication bracers), I'll hit 200 hit rating without effort which is adequate. I don't clearly see a point above 30% crit but below 4500 ap peak where stacking crit is superior. AP tends to have a linear return increasing dps by a fairly flat amount. Crit has a scaling return increasing DPS by a fraction of your DPS.
Last edited by Grymm : 09/11/07 at 1:13 PM.
Blood Legion WWS
Contrary to most 2h dps Serida did not use a single slam and yet was able to beat out Ararat( a fury war). Instead using HS as their primary rage dump. Serida stated that threat cap was the reason for 33/28 surpassing 17/44 for individual dps. Fewer HS's even though they hit harder leads to less cumulative threat (duh) making it much easier to push out higher dps while remaining under the threat cap.
Contrary to most 2h dps Serida did not use a single slam and yet was able to beat out Ararat( a fury war). Instead using HS as their primary rage dump. Serida stated that threat cap was the reason for 33/28 surpassing 17/44 for individual dps. Fewer HS's even though they hit harder leads to less cumulative threat (duh) making it much easier to push out higher dps while remaining under the threat cap.
Did you look at Anetheron? It also looks like the Fury warrior doesn't have DST (as Haste is not on his list of buffs & gains).
Point being, there's more to every story.
Point being, there's more to every story.
Edited onPatch 2.1.3
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Originally Posted by psychostomp
Blood Legion WWS
Contrary to most 2h dps Serida did not use a single slam and yet was able to beat out Ararat( a fury war). Instead using HS as their primary rage dump. Serida stated that threat cap was the reason for 33/28 surpassing 17/44 for individual dps. Fewer HS's even though they hit harder leads to less cumulative threat (duh) making it much easier to push out higher dps while remaining under the threat cap. |
Blood Legion truly does stack their DPS groups, and their DPSers have insane gear.
I did Gorefiend last week as 33/28 (without Imp Slam) and only pulled 1200 DPS, but at the same time the top DPSer was only doing 1750. So put in perspective (percentage wise) it's very similar.
As for him beating a fury warrior in raw DPS I can only assume the fury warrior a) didn't have WF, b) wasn't using DST, c) wasn't in a DPS group at all, or d) all of the above.
I quite simply don't see how it's possible any other way, as I have reasonably comparable gear to Serida and I pulled a good 300 DPS lower than our fury warrior.
I respecced back to Imp Slam so I'll post up a WWS of my damage on the next kill - I expect to see 1300-1350 DPS if not more assuming I don't get ghosted,
Edit - Ararat is a Prot Warrior normally (judging from his 5/5 T6 tank + bulwark of azzinoth) so I'm going to assume his fury gear is piss poor compared to normal Hyjal/BT level warriors :P
Last edited by Kiranat : 09/11/07 at 11:39 AM.
Edited onPatch 2.1.3
Another comment on the Archimonde numbers: Ararat doesn't have an enhancement shaman (no unleashed rage on buffs). 10% AP means a lot, probably no improved totems (not huge, but something), and I'd wager he had less than perfect totem coverage as well, with 18 WF attacks to Serida's 15. I'd think he'd have a few more considering the attack speed difference between 1H and 2H, or maybe he was just plain unlucky with WF.
Oh, and what Kiranat said. Ararat is/was MT for Blood Legion a long time. Not sure of his current status.
Oh, and what Kiranat said. Ararat is/was MT for Blood Legion a long time. Not sure of his current status.
Last edited by Trazhenko : 09/11/07 at 11:53 AM. Reason: tank
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Originally Posted by psychostomp
Blood Legion WWS
Contrary to most 2h dps Serida did not use a single slam and yet was able to beat out Ararat( a fury war). Instead using HS as their primary rage dump. Serida stated that threat cap was the reason for 33/28 surpassing 17/44 for individual dps. Fewer HS's even though they hit harder leads to less cumulative threat (duh) making it much easier to push out higher dps while remaining under the threat cap. |
On a aggro capped fight a 33/28 warrior is superior because he is able to use up the available aggro while adding damage to the remaining melee. His personal dps is not the deciding factor. I don't think HS usage belongs in any discussion of aggro cap fights as using HS in any capacity hurts your damage/aggro ratio. Given a Vashj trinket and dual fast weapons (think swiftsteel bludgeon), it could be argued that a fury warrior is superior to an arms warrior for an aggro capped fight due to the larger number of individual crits greatly enhancing the usefulness of that trinket.
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Originally Posted by Grymm
I calculate flurry uptime in the following way:
1/(MHSpd/1.25) - Flurried MH swings per second 1/(OHSpd/1.25) - Flurried OH swings per second Total Swings per Second (TS) 3/TS = Time period for 3 flurried swings (tp) tp/6 = Blood thirsts per Flurry Cycle tp/9 = WW per cycle .2*(tp*Flurried MH swings per second) = WFs per cycle X = other specials that can crit per flurry cycle (spamstring) Total Bonus Swings per Flurry Cycle (BS) Flurry Uptime = 1-(1-Crit%)^(3+BS) |
I did not know that. Does that also apply to dodges? It would not be hard to augment the flurry time period by a percent based on the inverse of your successful hit percentage.
Edited onPatch 2.1.3
When comparing warrior dps using Blood Legion wws, keep in mind the following:
- Serida is a full time dps warrior (most experienced in that role).
- Serida will generally be in the most optimal melee group, most of the time enhance shaman, feral druid, 2 x rogue and himself.
- Serida has the best gear of all the warriors in BL for dps. No other warrior has a DST for example.
Some other example wws in descending order of raid dps
Link 1 - Serida is 33/28 sword spec, Ararat is prot here, and Xnitemare is Axe spec, probably 33/28
Link 2 - Serida is 33/28 sword, Ararat is 33/28 mace I think, Zert(me) is prot
Link 3 - I'm prot and so is Ararat
Link 4 - I'm 17/44 fury, Serida is 33/28 sword
Edit: added the links
- Serida is a full time dps warrior (most experienced in that role).
- Serida will generally be in the most optimal melee group, most of the time enhance shaman, feral druid, 2 x rogue and himself.
- Serida has the best gear of all the warriors in BL for dps. No other warrior has a DST for example.
Some other example wws in descending order of raid dps
Link 1 - Serida is 33/28 sword spec, Ararat is prot here, and Xnitemare is Axe spec, probably 33/28
Link 2 - Serida is 33/28 sword, Ararat is 33/28 mace I think, Zert(me) is prot
Link 3 - I'm prot and so is Ararat
Link 4 - I'm 17/44 fury, Serida is 33/28 sword
Edit: added the links
Last edited by zert : 09/11/07 at 5:18 PM.
Why doesn't Serida use slam ? It would be a much better rage dump than hs imo.
Does Serida have some issues with lags or why is he/she not using slam at all ?
Does Serida have some issues with lags or why is he/she not using slam at all ?
My guess would be haste. With haste gear timing slams can get outta whack, whereas with heroic strike if you have enough rage you can just spam it, and haste will be of more benefit than if you were slamming away.
That might be part of it, but he also DPSes with a cataclysm's edge, a 3.5 speed weapon. Slam isn't normalized which means the damage it does scales way, way up with a slower weapon, especially at ~3000+ buffed AP. A 3.8 weapon like Torch will put out very efficient slams, but with a sword the cost of delaying white hits to fit slams in is trickier, especially since it costs 2 talent points to make slam viable in the first place
Edited onPatch 2.1.3
I have been reading back the past several pages and i have not noticed that the question "After 2.2 will a Wicked edge of the Plains out DPS a Dragonstrike" followed by "What enchant would be best for which" . From the way i see it i think Mongoose would be better on the Wicked edge, whilst potency on the Dragonstrike.
But im not sure myself the calculations as to wether or not Dragonstrike still leads to greater DPS then the Wicked Edge of the Plains.
side note: it wont allow me to make new posts, im yet to find a reason why, though i may have overlooked something
But im not sure myself the calculations as to wether or not Dragonstrike still leads to greater DPS then the Wicked Edge of the Plains.
side note: it wont allow me to make new posts, im yet to find a reason why, though i may have overlooked something
Last edited by FarDareisMar : 09/12/07 at 12:24 AM.
Without mentioning weapon speeds, with Cataclysm's, spamming hamstring for extra sword spec and DST Procs is superior to slam. I've had the sword for a few nights of raiding and I'm beating or matching my old fury DPS without using slam, and I don't have a DST.
Also, afaik blood legion uses a ret paladin, so with totem twisting and LOTP, I'm sure you could be near 50% crit.
Also, afaik blood legion uses a ret paladin, so with totem twisting and LOTP, I'm sure you could be near 50% crit.
Slam proccs dst and sword specc as well.
I think the main problem with people not using slam anymore is that they try to stick with the old cycle auto-slam-style which seems not to be fitting anymore. Simply slam every second or third hit if it doesn't fit in the normal cycle or if you have problems getting the timing correctly. But getting slams off in the correct timing ( around 0.7 secs after the melee hit ) still grants more dps than the 0.7 seconds autohit + harmstring.
I think the main problem with people not using slam anymore is that they try to stick with the old cycle auto-slam-style which seems not to be fitting anymore. Simply slam every second or third hit if it doesn't fit in the normal cycle or if you have problems getting the timing correctly. But getting slams off in the correct timing ( around 0.7 secs after the melee hit ) still grants more dps than the 0.7 seconds autohit + harmstring.
Given the many short fights in BT and Hyjal and Bloodlust rotations for the melee during "burst" phases, how does slam fit in? How do you use any kind of rotation with multiple bloodlusts, haste pots, DST procs, flurry? ....your attack speed changes so much. When your auto speed is so fast, it feels like slam + lag screws up any hope of a rotation/timing.
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Originally Posted by Baragdur
Slam proccs dst and sword specc as well.
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[Greaves of the Bloodwarder]
Thoughts on socketing these?
For the gems available to me(Non-hyjal), it comes down to 8 AP(3x 8 str) vs 4 Crit & 6 stamina(1x 8str, 1x 4str/4crit, 1x 4str/6sta)
Thoughts on socketing these?
For the gems available to me(Non-hyjal), it comes down to 8 AP(3x 8 str) vs 4 Crit & 6 stamina(1x 8str, 1x 4str/4crit, 1x 4str/6sta)
Edited onPatch 2.1.3
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Originally Posted by Emeraude
[Greaves of the Bloodwarder]
Thoughts on socketing these? For the gems available to me(Non-hyjal), it comes down to 8 AP(3x 8 str) vs 4 Crit & 6 stamina(1x 8str, 1x 4str/4crit, 1x 4str/6sta) |
Edit: fixed item links.
Last edited by Kalroth : 09/12/07 at 9:35 AM.
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Originally Posted by Kalroth
I've got [Bold Ornate Ruby], [Inscribed Ornate Topaz] and [Brutal Tanzanite] in my leggings, so you surely got more options than those you mention.
Edit: fixed item links. |
Gloves have [Brutal Tanzanite], and [Bold Ornate Ruby], [Inscribed Ornate Topaz] are on my PvP BP.
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Originally Posted by Emeraude
No I really don't ;p
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Having said that, I'm not fond of glass cannons and I'd rate 4 crit/6 sta over 4 str myself.
The gems are Unique-Equipped so unless you plan using the pvp BP for pve, or the legs for pvp then you might as well buy them a second time. I would go with [Bold Ornate Ruby], [Inscribed Ornate Topaz], [Sovereign Tanzanite]
Or do I mis-understand the way unique-equipped works for gems? I have never tried it myself
Or do I mis-understand the way unique-equipped works for gems? I have never tried it myself
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Originally Posted by Emeraude
[Greaves of the Bloodwarder]
Thoughts on socketing these? For the gems available to me(Non-hyjal), it comes down to 8 AP(3x 8 str) vs 4 Crit & 6 stamina(1x 8str, 1x 4str/4crit, 1x 4str/6sta) |
macros
i have read this thread with much enthusiasm but i haven't seen any good duel wield macros. i currently use
/castsequence reset=5 Bloodthirst, heroic strike, heroic strike
i WW when i have more than 40 rage and i manually keep up BS and rampage.
i use fools bane/merciless quickblade.
i have 1802 AP , 27.6 crit and 179 hit unbuffed in battle stance.
basically i am just looking for a new/better macro and maybe a little tweaking of my skill rotation.
treat
/castsequence reset=5 Bloodthirst, heroic strike, heroic strike
i WW when i have more than 40 rage and i manually keep up BS and rampage.
i use fools bane/merciless quickblade.
i have 1802 AP , 27.6 crit and 179 hit unbuffed in battle stance.
basically i am just looking for a new/better macro and maybe a little tweaking of my skill rotation.
treat
Why would you NOT use WW whenever its not on cooldown? It is an instant attack capable of proccing flurry/trinkets etc etc, instead of heroic strike that consumes more rage and adds extra threat?
/boggle.
/boggle.
Edited onPatch 2.1.3
I calculate flurry uptime in the following way:
1/(MHSpd/1.25) - Flurried MH swings per second
1/(OHSpd/1.25) - Flurried OH swings per second
Total Swings per Second (TS)
3/TS = Time period for 3 flurried swings (tp)
tp/6 = Blood thirsts per Flurry Cycle
tp/9 = WW per cycle
.2*(tp*Flurried MH swings per second) = WFs per cycle
X = other specials that can crit per flurry cycle (spamstring)
Total Bonus Swings per Flurry Cycle (BS)
Flurry Uptime = 1-(1-Crit%)^(3+BS)
So if you get in 1 special per flurry cycle (which you probably don't), you would have flurry chance of 1-(1-crit%)^(3+1). I think the spreadsheets use this math as well. The point is your flurry up time can be maximized/optimized through slower weapons for more bonus swings as well as higher crit chance. As your crit chance increases, the increase in Flurry uptime will taper off as it approaches 100%.
I also vaguely calculated some DPS values (neglecting flurry) for Str vs. Crit on itemization points. I breifly modeled unflurried autoattack, BT, and WW for .15 (miss + dodge), values of ap 2000-4500, crit from .3-.41, glancing blows, 0 mitigation on target, basic Imp/Fury spec. For all values of ap, starting with a 30% crit chance, 10 AP returned 2.544 DPS (.56 dps per itemization points w/ kings). At 40% crit chance, 10 ap was .616 dps per itemization point. Given the high flurry up times of .3 and .40 crit, added crit returns limited flurry uptime increase. Modeling flurry in would then increase DPS based around higher return on AP rather than Crit. At 2000 ap, 1% crit yielded 6.54 dps (.3 dps per itemization point). At 4500 ap, the return rises to .55 dps per itemization point. So, according to what gear I have (I theoretically peak my AP in the low 4k range during a raid and almost always above 3500, str is always preferrable to crit point for point. At my peak values, the crit is competitively valued before I account for flurry. My conclusion for gearing is to keep up a decent crit and stack AP. Hit I will take as I get gear with it. With some decent raid gear (I could use T5 pants, eradication bracers), I'll hit 200 hit rating without effort which is adequate. I don't clearly see a point above 30% crit but below 4500 ap peak where stacking crit is superior. AP tends to have a linear return increasing dps by a fairly flat amount. Crit has a scaling return increasing DPS by a fraction of your DPS.
1/(MHSpd/1.25) - Flurried MH swings per second
1/(OHSpd/1.25) - Flurried OH swings per second
Total Swings per Second (TS)
3/TS = Time period for 3 flurried swings (tp)
tp/6 = Blood thirsts per Flurry Cycle
tp/9 = WW per cycle
.2*(tp*Flurried MH swings per second) = WFs per cycle
X = other specials that can crit per flurry cycle (spamstring)
Total Bonus Swings per Flurry Cycle (BS)
Flurry Uptime = 1-(1-Crit%)^(3+BS)
So if you get in 1 special per flurry cycle (which you probably don't), you would have flurry chance of 1-(1-crit%)^(3+1). I think the spreadsheets use this math as well. The point is your flurry up time can be maximized/optimized through slower weapons for more bonus swings as well as higher crit chance. As your crit chance increases, the increase in Flurry uptime will taper off as it approaches 100%.
I also vaguely calculated some DPS values (neglecting flurry) for Str vs. Crit on itemization points. I breifly modeled unflurried autoattack, BT, and WW for .15 (miss + dodge), values of ap 2000-4500, crit from .3-.41, glancing blows, 0 mitigation on target, basic Imp/Fury spec. For all values of ap, starting with a 30% crit chance, 10 AP returned 2.544 DPS (.56 dps per itemization points w/ kings). At 40% crit chance, 10 ap was .616 dps per itemization point. Given the high flurry up times of .3 and .40 crit, added crit returns limited flurry uptime increase. Modeling flurry in would then increase DPS based around higher return on AP rather than Crit. At 2000 ap, 1% crit yielded 6.54 dps (.3 dps per itemization point). At 4500 ap, the return rises to .55 dps per itemization point. So, according to what gear I have (I theoretically peak my AP in the low 4k range during a raid and almost always above 3500, str is always preferrable to crit point for point. At my peak values, the crit is competitively valued before I account for flurry. My conclusion for gearing is to keep up a decent crit and stack AP. Hit I will take as I get gear with it. With some decent raid gear (I could use T5 pants, eradication bracers), I'll hit 200 hit rating without effort which is adequate. I don't clearly see a point above 30% crit but below 4500 ap peak where stacking crit is superior. AP tends to have a linear return increasing dps by a fairly flat amount. Crit has a scaling return increasing DPS by a fraction of your DPS.
Last edited by Grymm : 09/11/07 at 1:13 PM.
Blood Legion WWS
Contrary to most 2h dps Serida did not use a single slam and yet was able to beat out Ararat( a fury war). Instead using HS as their primary rage dump. Serida stated that threat cap was the reason for 33/28 surpassing 17/44 for individual dps. Fewer HS's even though they hit harder leads to less cumulative threat (duh) making it much easier to push out higher dps while remaining under the threat cap.
Contrary to most 2h dps Serida did not use a single slam and yet was able to beat out Ararat( a fury war). Instead using HS as their primary rage dump. Serida stated that threat cap was the reason for 33/28 surpassing 17/44 for individual dps. Fewer HS's even though they hit harder leads to less cumulative threat (duh) making it much easier to push out higher dps while remaining under the threat cap.
Did you look at Anetheron? It also looks like the Fury warrior doesn't have DST (as Haste is not on his list of buffs & gains).
Point being, there's more to every story.
Point being, there's more to every story.
Edited onPatch 2.1.3
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Originally Posted by psychostomp
Blood Legion WWS
Contrary to most 2h dps Serida did not use a single slam and yet was able to beat out Ararat( a fury war). Instead using HS as their primary rage dump. Serida stated that threat cap was the reason for 33/28 surpassing 17/44 for individual dps. Fewer HS's even though they hit harder leads to less cumulative threat (duh) making it much easier to push out higher dps while remaining under the threat cap. |
Blood Legion truly does stack their DPS groups, and their DPSers have insane gear.
I did Gorefiend last week as 33/28 (without Imp Slam) and only pulled 1200 DPS, but at the same time the top DPSer was only doing 1750. So put in perspective (percentage wise) it's very similar.
As for him beating a fury warrior in raw DPS I can only assume the fury warrior a) didn't have WF, b) wasn't using DST, c) wasn't in a DPS group at all, or d) all of the above.
I quite simply don't see how it's possible any other way, as I have reasonably comparable gear to Serida and I pulled a good 300 DPS lower than our fury warrior.
I respecced back to Imp Slam so I'll post up a WWS of my damage on the next kill - I expect to see 1300-1350 DPS if not more assuming I don't get ghosted,
Edit - Ararat is a Prot Warrior normally (judging from his 5/5 T6 tank + bulwark of azzinoth) so I'm going to assume his fury gear is piss poor compared to normal Hyjal/BT level warriors :P
Last edited by Kiranat : 09/11/07 at 11:39 AM.
Edited onPatch 2.1.3
Another comment on the Archimonde numbers: Ararat doesn't have an enhancement shaman (no unleashed rage on buffs). 10% AP means a lot, probably no improved totems (not huge, but something), and I'd wager he had less than perfect totem coverage as well, with 18 WF attacks to Serida's 15. I'd think he'd have a few more considering the attack speed difference between 1H and 2H, or maybe he was just plain unlucky with WF.
Oh, and what Kiranat said. Ararat is/was MT for Blood Legion a long time. Not sure of his current status.
Oh, and what Kiranat said. Ararat is/was MT for Blood Legion a long time. Not sure of his current status.
Last edited by Trazhenko : 09/11/07 at 11:53 AM. Reason: tank
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Originally Posted by psychostomp
Blood Legion WWS
Contrary to most 2h dps Serida did not use a single slam and yet was able to beat out Ararat( a fury war). Instead using HS as their primary rage dump. Serida stated that threat cap was the reason for 33/28 surpassing 17/44 for individual dps. Fewer HS's even though they hit harder leads to less cumulative threat (duh) making it much easier to push out higher dps while remaining under the threat cap. |
On a aggro capped fight a 33/28 warrior is superior because he is able to use up the available aggro while adding damage to the remaining melee. His personal dps is not the deciding factor. I don't think HS usage belongs in any discussion of aggro cap fights as using HS in any capacity hurts your damage/aggro ratio. Given a Vashj trinket and dual fast weapons (think swiftsteel bludgeon), it could be argued that a fury warrior is superior to an arms warrior for an aggro capped fight due to the larger number of individual crits greatly enhancing the usefulness of that trinket.
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Originally Posted by Grymm
I calculate flurry uptime in the following way:
1/(MHSpd/1.25) - Flurried MH swings per second 1/(OHSpd/1.25) - Flurried OH swings per second Total Swings per Second (TS) 3/TS = Time period for 3 flurried swings (tp) tp/6 = Blood thirsts per Flurry Cycle tp/9 = WW per cycle .2*(tp*Flurried MH swings per second) = WFs per cycle X = other specials that can crit per flurry cycle (spamstring) Total Bonus Swings per Flurry Cycle (BS) Flurry Uptime = 1-(1-Crit%)^(3+BS) |
I did not know that. Does that also apply to dodges? It would not be hard to augment the flurry time period by a percent based on the inverse of your successful hit percentage.
Edited onPatch 2.1.3
When comparing warrior dps using Blood Legion wws, keep in mind the following:
- Serida is a full time dps warrior (most experienced in that role).
- Serida will generally be in the most optimal melee group, most of the time enhance shaman, feral druid, 2 x rogue and himself.
- Serida has the best gear of all the warriors in BL for dps. No other warrior has a DST for example.
Some other example wws in descending order of raid dps
Link 1 - Serida is 33/28 sword spec, Ararat is prot here, and Xnitemare is Axe spec, probably 33/28
Link 2 - Serida is 33/28 sword, Ararat is 33/28 mace I think, Zert(me) is prot
Link 3 - I'm prot and so is Ararat
Link 4 - I'm 17/44 fury, Serida is 33/28 sword
Edit: added the links
- Serida is a full time dps warrior (most experienced in that role).
- Serida will generally be in the most optimal melee group, most of the time enhance shaman, feral druid, 2 x rogue and himself.
- Serida has the best gear of all the warriors in BL for dps. No other warrior has a DST for example.
Some other example wws in descending order of raid dps
Link 1 - Serida is 33/28 sword spec, Ararat is prot here, and Xnitemare is Axe spec, probably 33/28
Link 2 - Serida is 33/28 sword, Ararat is 33/28 mace I think, Zert(me) is prot
Link 3 - I'm prot and so is Ararat
Link 4 - I'm 17/44 fury, Serida is 33/28 sword
Edit: added the links
Last edited by zert : 09/11/07 at 5:18 PM.
Why doesn't Serida use slam ? It would be a much better rage dump than hs imo.
Does Serida have some issues with lags or why is he/she not using slam at all ?
Does Serida have some issues with lags or why is he/she not using slam at all ?
My guess would be haste. With haste gear timing slams can get outta whack, whereas with heroic strike if you have enough rage you can just spam it, and haste will be of more benefit than if you were slamming away.
That might be part of it, but he also DPSes with a cataclysm's edge, a 3.5 speed weapon. Slam isn't normalized which means the damage it does scales way, way up with a slower weapon, especially at ~3000+ buffed AP. A 3.8 weapon like Torch will put out very efficient slams, but with a sword the cost of delaying white hits to fit slams in is trickier, especially since it costs 2 talent points to make slam viable in the first place
Edited onPatch 2.1.3
I have been reading back the past several pages and i have not noticed that the question "After 2.2 will a Wicked edge of the Plains out DPS a Dragonstrike" followed by "What enchant would be best for which" . From the way i see it i think Mongoose would be better on the Wicked edge, whilst potency on the Dragonstrike.
But im not sure myself the calculations as to wether or not Dragonstrike still leads to greater DPS then the Wicked Edge of the Plains.
side note: it wont allow me to make new posts, im yet to find a reason why, though i may have overlooked something
But im not sure myself the calculations as to wether or not Dragonstrike still leads to greater DPS then the Wicked Edge of the Plains.
side note: it wont allow me to make new posts, im yet to find a reason why, though i may have overlooked something
Last edited by FarDareisMar : 09/12/07 at 12:24 AM.
Without mentioning weapon speeds, with Cataclysm's, spamming hamstring for extra sword spec and DST Procs is superior to slam. I've had the sword for a few nights of raiding and I'm beating or matching my old fury DPS without using slam, and I don't have a DST.
Also, afaik blood legion uses a ret paladin, so with totem twisting and LOTP, I'm sure you could be near 50% crit.
Also, afaik blood legion uses a ret paladin, so with totem twisting and LOTP, I'm sure you could be near 50% crit.
Slam proccs dst and sword specc as well.
I think the main problem with people not using slam anymore is that they try to stick with the old cycle auto-slam-style which seems not to be fitting anymore. Simply slam every second or third hit if it doesn't fit in the normal cycle or if you have problems getting the timing correctly. But getting slams off in the correct timing ( around 0.7 secs after the melee hit ) still grants more dps than the 0.7 seconds autohit + harmstring.
I think the main problem with people not using slam anymore is that they try to stick with the old cycle auto-slam-style which seems not to be fitting anymore. Simply slam every second or third hit if it doesn't fit in the normal cycle or if you have problems getting the timing correctly. But getting slams off in the correct timing ( around 0.7 secs after the melee hit ) still grants more dps than the 0.7 seconds autohit + harmstring.
Given the many short fights in BT and Hyjal and Bloodlust rotations for the melee during "burst" phases, how does slam fit in? How do you use any kind of rotation with multiple bloodlusts, haste pots, DST procs, flurry? ....your attack speed changes so much. When your auto speed is so fast, it feels like slam + lag screws up any hope of a rotation/timing.
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Originally Posted by Baragdur
Slam proccs dst and sword specc as well.
|
[Greaves of the Bloodwarder]
Thoughts on socketing these?
For the gems available to me(Non-hyjal), it comes down to 8 AP(3x 8 str) vs 4 Crit & 6 stamina(1x 8str, 1x 4str/4crit, 1x 4str/6sta)
Thoughts on socketing these?
For the gems available to me(Non-hyjal), it comes down to 8 AP(3x 8 str) vs 4 Crit & 6 stamina(1x 8str, 1x 4str/4crit, 1x 4str/6sta)
Edited onPatch 2.1.3
|
Originally Posted by Emeraude
[Greaves of the Bloodwarder]
Thoughts on socketing these? For the gems available to me(Non-hyjal), it comes down to 8 AP(3x 8 str) vs 4 Crit & 6 stamina(1x 8str, 1x 4str/4crit, 1x 4str/6sta) |
Edit: fixed item links.
Last edited by Kalroth : 09/12/07 at 9:35 AM.
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Originally Posted by Kalroth
I've got [Bold Ornate Ruby], [Inscribed Ornate Topaz] and [Brutal Tanzanite] in my leggings, so you surely got more options than those you mention.
Edit: fixed item links. |
Gloves have [Brutal Tanzanite], and [Bold Ornate Ruby], [Inscribed Ornate Topaz] are on my PvP BP.
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Originally Posted by Emeraude
No I really don't ;p
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Having said that, I'm not fond of glass cannons and I'd rate 4 crit/6 sta over 4 str myself.
The gems are Unique-Equipped so unless you plan using the pvp BP for pve, or the legs for pvp then you might as well buy them a second time. I would go with [Bold Ornate Ruby], [Inscribed Ornate Topaz], [Sovereign Tanzanite]
Or do I mis-understand the way unique-equipped works for gems? I have never tried it myself
Or do I mis-understand the way unique-equipped works for gems? I have never tried it myself
|
Originally Posted by Emeraude
[Greaves of the Bloodwarder]
Thoughts on socketing these? For the gems available to me(Non-hyjal), it comes down to 8 AP(3x 8 str) vs 4 Crit & 6 stamina(1x 8str, 1x 4str/4crit, 1x 4str/6sta) |
macros
i have read this thread with much enthusiasm but i haven't seen any good duel wield macros. i currently use
/castsequence reset=5 Bloodthirst, heroic strike, heroic strike
i WW when i have more than 40 rage and i manually keep up BS and rampage.
i use fools bane/merciless quickblade.
i have 1802 AP , 27.6 crit and 179 hit unbuffed in battle stance.
basically i am just looking for a new/better macro and maybe a little tweaking of my skill rotation.
treat
/castsequence reset=5 Bloodthirst, heroic strike, heroic strike
i WW when i have more than 40 rage and i manually keep up BS and rampage.
i use fools bane/merciless quickblade.
i have 1802 AP , 27.6 crit and 179 hit unbuffed in battle stance.
basically i am just looking for a new/better macro and maybe a little tweaking of my skill rotation.
treat
Why would you NOT use WW whenever its not on cooldown? It is an instant attack capable of proccing flurry/trinkets etc etc, instead of heroic strike that consumes more rage and adds extra threat?
/boggle.
/boggle.
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Originally Posted by madrussian
Why would you NOT use WW whenever its not on cooldown? It is an instant attack capable of proccing flurry/trinkets etc etc, instead of heroic strike that consumes more rage and adds extra threat?
/boggle. |
ok while i appreciate the constructive criticism i am still wondering what macro's you guys are using.
should i insert WW into the macro after BT? will it automatically skip it if it is cooling down?
should i insert WW into the macro after BT? will it automatically skip it if it is cooling down?
Why would you want to use a macro ?
Simply use BT>WW>HS rage dump
Don't use that macro.. simply use the 4-5 buttons you need for the fury dps :/
Simply use BT>WW>HS rage dump
Don't use that macro.. simply use the 4-5 buttons you need for the fury dps :/
|
Originally Posted by Baragdur
Why would you want to use a macro ?
Simply use BT>WW>HS rage dump Don't use that macro.. simply use the 4-5 buttons you need for the fury dps :/ |
|
Originally Posted by madrussian
Quoted for truth, its not hard to press bt/ww/heroic/hamstring buttons.
|
*Macros rotation*. :p
I remember I used to have this ridiculous tanking macro back in the day.
/cast Shield Block
/cast Revenge
/cast Shield Slam
/cast Sunder Armor
HS when Rage was high heh.
Grymm,
Excellent mathematical analysis; could you comment on the value of crit over AP/str when taking into account threat caps and the Vashj trinket: Prism of Inner Calm.
Is it possible that this trinket tips the balance toward crit earlier in the AP spectrum?
Thanks for helping out a math failure.
--Juh
Excellent mathematical analysis; could you comment on the value of crit over AP/str when taking into account threat caps and the Vashj trinket: Prism of Inner Calm.
Is it possible that this trinket tips the balance toward crit earlier in the AP spectrum?
Thanks for helping out a math failure.
--Juh
I've never used sequence macros for DPS to be honest. I find the versatility helps far more than having a designated set sequence. Large rage bursts or lack thereof demand a costume sequence for best rage usage and efficiency while still using instants whenever possible. Basically what I do is:
If rage is > 30 and BT is not on CD, use it.
If rage is > 25 and BT IS on CD and the use of WW will not interfere with my next BT from lack of rage or GCD, use it.
If rage is > 60, HS.
If rage is > 30 and BT is not on CD, use it.
If rage is > 25 and BT IS on CD and the use of WW will not interfere with my next BT from lack of rage or GCD, use it.
If rage is > 60, HS.
Out of all my characters (and their possible specs) my warrior is the only one that I don't use macros for.
BT -> WW -> HS (rage permitting). Then refreshing BS/Rampage when needed.
BT -> WW -> HS (rage permitting). Then refreshing BS/Rampage when needed.
|
Originally Posted by Zalein
I've never used sequence macros for DPS to be honest. I find the versatility helps far more than having a designated set sequence. Large rage bursts or lack thereof demand a costume sequence for best rage usage and efficiency while still using instants whenever possible. Basically what I do is:
If rage is > 30 and BT is not on CD, use it. If rage is > 25 and BT IS on CD and the use of WW will not interfere with my next BT from lack of rage or GCD, use it. If rage is > 60, HS. |
I find myself HSing when BT/WW are on cooldown, and I stop HSing if I need rage for BT/WW when they are about to come off cooldown.
Yeah, depends on how long the cooldowns have to go on the instants and what the rage is, but sometimes I do. That's exactly my point with the macro deal, you can't have a sequence, you have to improvise on what's best for the situation and short term future.
|
Originally Posted by Zalein
Yeah, depends on how long the cooldowns have to go on the instants and what the rage is, but sometimes I do. That's exactly my point with the macro deal, you can't have a sequence, you have to improvise on what's best for the situation and short term future.
|
Cause I find myself sometimes having too much rage even with HS spam and I decide to hamstring ironicly at the wrong moment activating a gcd giving me a drop in BT/WW useage.
A quick question...
I've been thinking about picking up the Prism of Inner Calm, but i don't particularly want to take it from other classes that need it more.
I only have a few threat limited fights:
Tidewalker
Void Reaver
Vashj adds
Hydross (between phases)
Even then my enhancement shaman has similar issues and alternates between Windfury/Tranquil Air in order to stay under the tank.
Is it worth picking the trinket up for just these fights?
I've been thinking about picking up the Prism of Inner Calm, but i don't particularly want to take it from other classes that need it more.
I only have a few threat limited fights:
Tidewalker
Void Reaver
Vashj adds
Hydross (between phases)
Even then my enhancement shaman has similar issues and alternates between Windfury/Tranquil Air in order to stay under the tank.
Is it worth picking the trinket up for just these fights?
|
Originally Posted by Mogwai
A quick question...
I've been thinking about picking up the Prism of Inner Calm, but i don't particularly want to take it from other classes that need it more. I only have a few threat limited fights: Tidewalker Void Reaver Vashj adds Hydross (between phases) Even then my enhancement shaman has similar issues and alternates between Windfury/Tranquil Air in order to stay under the tank. Is it worth picking the trinket up for just these fights? |
|
Originally Posted by Eledorian
When do you hamstring?
Cause I find myself sometimes having too much rage even with HS spam and I decide to hamstring ironicly at the wrong moment activating a gcd giving me a drop in BT/WW useage. |
Tidewalker is a threat limited fight to you? I can press the tank if I don't get tombed, but the threat cap only goes up. If I was higher DPS, which I'm not because I try not to WW the adds and get killed, I might consider needing more threat reduction. At about 600-800 TPS, the tank will hold over me until I am well over 1k DPS.
Vashj adds: The blueberries don't attack and you can't full dps the striders. I guess you are talking about the nagas. I don't hit the nagas for the first 10 seconds they are up. I run around the top killing spare blue berries and proccing VR. If a strider is at 50% or less, I'll hit that some. I probably wouldn't use the threat trinket on this fight.
On Hydross, I dps down an add on each phase shift before I get back on him. A poorly timed attack will pull hydross on you at 500 or 350 threat.
I can see about guessing some numbers at prism but it's really 2 different dimensions. It will always improve your damage/aggro point and it will always cost you DPS. Whether it's useful or not really pertains to A: are you pushing the aggro cap and B: would lessening your HS spam get you under the cap before trading in for a lower dps trinket.
Vashj adds: The blueberries don't attack and you can't full dps the striders. I guess you are talking about the nagas. I don't hit the nagas for the first 10 seconds they are up. I run around the top killing spare blue berries and proccing VR. If a strider is at 50% or less, I'll hit that some. I probably wouldn't use the threat trinket on this fight.
On Hydross, I dps down an add on each phase shift before I get back on him. A poorly timed attack will pull hydross on you at 500 or 350 threat.
I can see about guessing some numbers at prism but it's really 2 different dimensions. It will always improve your damage/aggro point and it will always cost you DPS. Whether it's useful or not really pertains to A: are you pushing the aggro cap and B: would lessening your HS spam get you under the cap before trading in for a lower dps trinket.
On a side note: Do the striders hit anything around them aside from the fear? I mean, is it ok to DPS with DW or berserker rage up? A lot of times we are lacking just a bit of DPS on those and I'd like to know if it's safe to go in, pop an anti-fear and help out a bit.
|
Originally Posted by Zalein
On a side note: Do the striders hit anything around them aside from the fear? I mean, is it ok to DPS with DW or berserker rage up? A lot of times we are lacking just a bit of DPS on those and I'd like to know if it's safe to go in, pop an anti-fear and help out a bit.
|
Between tanking Naga's myself and our other tank use Berserker Rage to Intercept and Concussion blow/Hamstring them.
However if you do out aggro the person kiting the Strider I would imagine you would get one-rounded pretty swiftly.
|
Originally Posted by Tauftamir
However if you do out aggro the person kiting the Strider I would imagine you would get one-rounded pretty swiftly.
|
Edited onPatch 2.1.3
|
Originally Posted by Grymm
Tidewalker is a threat limited fight to you? I can press the tank if I don't get tombed, but the threat cap only goes up. If I was higher DPS, which I'm not because I try not to WW the adds and get killed, I might consider needing more threat reduction. At about 600-800 TPS, the tank will hold over me until I am well over 1k DPS.
|
But he has turned around and 1 shot me before, fortunately he didn't tidal the raid.
| Vashj adds: The blueberries don't attack and you can't full dps the striders. I guess you are talking about the nagas. I don't hit the nagas for the first 10 seconds they are up. I run around the top killing spare blue berries and proccing VR. If a strider is at 50% or less, I'll hit that some. I probably wouldn't use the threat trinket on this fight. |
| On Hydross, I dps down an add on each phase shift before I get back on him. A poorly timed attack will pull hydross on you at 500 or 350 threat. |
The more i look at this trinket, the more it seems like a hybrid/offspec trinket. A decent rogue should never need it, Mages neither properly specced. So it just falls to Moonkins, DPS Warriors and non-resto shaman.
Edit: Including death to Tidewalker WWS log around 1200 DPS: Wow Web Stats
Last edited by Mogwai : 09/13/07 at 10:33 AM. Reason: Including WWS log
|
Originally Posted by Tauftamir
Provided you don't out-aggro the person kiting the Strider it will not turn around and melee you.
Between tanking Naga's myself and our other tank use Berserker Rage to Intercept and Concussion blow/Hamstring them. However if you do out aggro the person kiting the Strider I would imagine you would get one-rounded pretty swiftly. |
I have been reading and reading and reading. Trying to figure out how I can improve myself as far as DPS goes. I have been plugging away at the spreadsheet and can't see why I am so off to what the sheet should say for me and my gear.
Here is the WWS from last night Wow Web Stats
Link to my armory The Armory
Is it my cycle that I am not putting out what I should or have I really peaked at my current gear lvl?
Here is the WWS from last night Wow Web Stats
Link to my armory The Armory
Is it my cycle that I am not putting out what I should or have I really peaked at my current gear lvl?
Cataclysm's Edge trip report: Slam not really worth it compared to what it was when I was using torch. I think I'll max out imp battle shout and put the other point in unbridled wrath or something
My overall dps definitely seems better, though, even putzing around trying to figure out whether or not to use slam in my rotation
My overall dps definitely seems better, though, even putzing around trying to figure out whether or not to use slam in my rotation
|
Originally Posted by slagkrigare
I have been reading and reading and reading. Trying to figure out how I can improve myself as far as DPS goes. I have been plugging away at the spreadsheet and can't see why I am so off to what the sheet should say for me and my gear.
Here is the WWS from last night Wow Web Stats Link to my armory The Armory Is it my cycle that I am not putting out what I should or have I really peaked at my current gear lvl? |
Did you observer your cooldowns and had most of the time bt/ww on cooldown and only threw in hs when you had enough rage?
@Mogwai; you are doing like 300 more DPS then me on tidewalker...without cleaving the crap out of the adds too. Only things i can see that you have that i dont are; Enhancement shaman over me having a resto-shaman (+10% AP, improved totems) a feral druid (5% crit) and a dragonspine trophy.
I THINK i could see that accounting for ~300 more dps, give or take. Especially with the current, insane, state of the DST.
@slagkrigare; You will be bottom DPS unless you have a windfury totem...period. WF will boost you personally (from your Kalathress kill data) up at least 12k more damage and 2 spots on the DPS meter, and the rage from that 12k damage would put you within striking distance of top 5 DPS....from 12th.
Seriously, without Windfury, it's not even worth trying really. I had to do vashj this week without windfury (still working on her...had an elemental and resto shaman show. Elemental shaman to mage group, and resto to MT group for grounding) I couldn't break top 12 DPS in phase 1 either. On phase 2 i tore it up on the elementals...but that's because VR is pure hacks on em.
I THINK i could see that accounting for ~300 more dps, give or take. Especially with the current, insane, state of the DST.
@slagkrigare; You will be bottom DPS unless you have a windfury totem...period. WF will boost you personally (from your Kalathress kill data) up at least 12k more damage and 2 spots on the DPS meter, and the rage from that 12k damage would put you within striking distance of top 5 DPS....from 12th.
Seriously, without Windfury, it's not even worth trying really. I had to do vashj this week without windfury (still working on her...had an elemental and resto shaman show. Elemental shaman to mage group, and resto to MT group for grounding) I couldn't break top 12 DPS in phase 1 either. On phase 2 i tore it up on the elementals...but that's because VR is pure hacks on em.
hi, i read this forum since almost 5months but never posted, so be indulgent plz.
So i read the entire thread today to be sure, and unless im completly blind, im looking for the necessary hit for DW fury in BT.
actually my stats are (zerk stance):
1897 AP
26.85 crit
249hit rating
65 haste rating
I played fury during the whole WoW but did arena on TBC, thats why im little lost.
Could anyone tell me the sense where i have to upgrade my stats ?
FYI, i play with rising tide/switsteel & solarian/DFT as trinkets.
thx for advance
So i read the entire thread today to be sure, and unless im completly blind, im looking for the necessary hit for DW fury in BT.
actually my stats are (zerk stance):
1897 AP
26.85 crit
249hit rating
65 haste rating
I played fury during the whole WoW but did arena on TBC, thats why im little lost.
Could anyone tell me the sense where i have to upgrade my stats ?
FYI, i play with rising tide/switsteel & solarian/DFT as trinkets.
thx for advance
|
Originally Posted by madrussian
Why would you NOT use WW whenever its not on cooldown? It is an instant attack capable of proccing flurry/trinkets etc etc, instead of heroic strike that consumes more rage and adds extra threat?
/boggle. |
ok while i appreciate the constructive criticism i am still wondering what macro's you guys are using.
should i insert WW into the macro after BT? will it automatically skip it if it is cooling down?
should i insert WW into the macro after BT? will it automatically skip it if it is cooling down?
Why would you want to use a macro ?
Simply use BT>WW>HS rage dump
Don't use that macro.. simply use the 4-5 buttons you need for the fury dps :/
Simply use BT>WW>HS rage dump
Don't use that macro.. simply use the 4-5 buttons you need for the fury dps :/
|
Originally Posted by Baragdur
Why would you want to use a macro ?
Simply use BT>WW>HS rage dump Don't use that macro.. simply use the 4-5 buttons you need for the fury dps :/ |
|
Originally Posted by madrussian
Quoted for truth, its not hard to press bt/ww/heroic/hamstring buttons.
|
*Macros rotation*. :p
I remember I used to have this ridiculous tanking macro back in the day.
/cast Shield Block
/cast Revenge
/cast Shield Slam
/cast Sunder Armor
HS when Rage was high heh.
Grymm,
Excellent mathematical analysis; could you comment on the value of crit over AP/str when taking into account threat caps and the Vashj trinket: Prism of Inner Calm.
Is it possible that this trinket tips the balance toward crit earlier in the AP spectrum?
Thanks for helping out a math failure.
--Juh
Excellent mathematical analysis; could you comment on the value of crit over AP/str when taking into account threat caps and the Vashj trinket: Prism of Inner Calm.
Is it possible that this trinket tips the balance toward crit earlier in the AP spectrum?
Thanks for helping out a math failure.
--Juh
I've never used sequence macros for DPS to be honest. I find the versatility helps far more than having a designated set sequence. Large rage bursts or lack thereof demand a costume sequence for best rage usage and efficiency while still using instants whenever possible. Basically what I do is:
If rage is > 30 and BT is not on CD, use it.
If rage is > 25 and BT IS on CD and the use of WW will not interfere with my next BT from lack of rage or GCD, use it.
If rage is > 60, HS.
If rage is > 30 and BT is not on CD, use it.
If rage is > 25 and BT IS on CD and the use of WW will not interfere with my next BT from lack of rage or GCD, use it.
If rage is > 60, HS.
Out of all my characters (and their possible specs) my warrior is the only one that I don't use macros for.
BT -> WW -> HS (rage permitting). Then refreshing BS/Rampage when needed.
BT -> WW -> HS (rage permitting). Then refreshing BS/Rampage when needed.
|
Originally Posted by Zalein
I've never used sequence macros for DPS to be honest. I find the versatility helps far more than having a designated set sequence. Large rage bursts or lack thereof demand a costume sequence for best rage usage and efficiency while still using instants whenever possible. Basically what I do is:
If rage is > 30 and BT is not on CD, use it. If rage is > 25 and BT IS on CD and the use of WW will not interfere with my next BT from lack of rage or GCD, use it. If rage is > 60, HS. |
I find myself HSing when BT/WW are on cooldown, and I stop HSing if I need rage for BT/WW when they are about to come off cooldown.
Yeah, depends on how long the cooldowns have to go on the instants and what the rage is, but sometimes I do. That's exactly my point with the macro deal, you can't have a sequence, you have to improvise on what's best for the situation and short term future.
|
Originally Posted by Zalein
Yeah, depends on how long the cooldowns have to go on the instants and what the rage is, but sometimes I do. That's exactly my point with the macro deal, you can't have a sequence, you have to improvise on what's best for the situation and short term future.
|
Cause I find myself sometimes having too much rage even with HS spam and I decide to hamstring ironicly at the wrong moment activating a gcd giving me a drop in BT/WW useage.
A quick question...
I've been thinking about picking up the Prism of Inner Calm, but i don't particularly want to take it from other classes that need it more.
I only have a few threat limited fights:
Tidewalker
Void Reaver
Vashj adds
Hydross (between phases)
Even then my enhancement shaman has similar issues and alternates between Windfury/Tranquil Air in order to stay under the tank.
Is it worth picking the trinket up for just these fights?
I've been thinking about picking up the Prism of Inner Calm, but i don't particularly want to take it from other classes that need it more.
I only have a few threat limited fights:
Tidewalker
Void Reaver
Vashj adds
Hydross (between phases)
Even then my enhancement shaman has similar issues and alternates between Windfury/Tranquil Air in order to stay under the tank.
Is it worth picking the trinket up for just these fights?
|
Originally Posted by Mogwai
A quick question...
I've been thinking about picking up the Prism of Inner Calm, but i don't particularly want to take it from other classes that need it more. I only have a few threat limited fights: Tidewalker Void Reaver Vashj adds Hydross (between phases) Even then my enhancement shaman has similar issues and alternates between Windfury/Tranquil Air in order to stay under the tank. Is it worth picking the trinket up for just these fights? |
|
Originally Posted by Eledorian
When do you hamstring?
Cause I find myself sometimes having too much rage even with HS spam and I decide to hamstring ironicly at the wrong moment activating a gcd giving me a drop in BT/WW useage. |
Tidewalker is a threat limited fight to you? I can press the tank if I don't get tombed, but the threat cap only goes up. If I was higher DPS, which I'm not because I try not to WW the adds and get killed, I might consider needing more threat reduction. At about 600-800 TPS, the tank will hold over me until I am well over 1k DPS.
Vashj adds: The blueberries don't attack and you can't full dps the striders. I guess you are talking about the nagas. I don't hit the nagas for the first 10 seconds they are up. I run around the top killing spare blue berries and proccing VR. If a strider is at 50% or less, I'll hit that some. I probably wouldn't use the threat trinket on this fight.
On Hydross, I dps down an add on each phase shift before I get back on him. A poorly timed attack will pull hydross on you at 500 or 350 threat.
I can see about guessing some numbers at prism but it's really 2 different dimensions. It will always improve your damage/aggro point and it will always cost you DPS. Whether it's useful or not really pertains to A: are you pushing the aggro cap and B: would lessening your HS spam get you under the cap before trading in for a lower dps trinket.
Vashj adds: The blueberries don't attack and you can't full dps the striders. I guess you are talking about the nagas. I don't hit the nagas for the first 10 seconds they are up. I run around the top killing spare blue berries and proccing VR. If a strider is at 50% or less, I'll hit that some. I probably wouldn't use the threat trinket on this fight.
On Hydross, I dps down an add on each phase shift before I get back on him. A poorly timed attack will pull hydross on you at 500 or 350 threat.
I can see about guessing some numbers at prism but it's really 2 different dimensions. It will always improve your damage/aggro point and it will always cost you DPS. Whether it's useful or not really pertains to A: are you pushing the aggro cap and B: would lessening your HS spam get you under the cap before trading in for a lower dps trinket.
On a side note: Do the striders hit anything around them aside from the fear? I mean, is it ok to DPS with DW or berserker rage up? A lot of times we are lacking just a bit of DPS on those and I'd like to know if it's safe to go in, pop an anti-fear and help out a bit.
|
Originally Posted by Zalein
On a side note: Do the striders hit anything around them aside from the fear? I mean, is it ok to DPS with DW or berserker rage up? A lot of times we are lacking just a bit of DPS on those and I'd like to know if it's safe to go in, pop an anti-fear and help out a bit.
|
Between tanking Naga's myself and our other tank use Berserker Rage to Intercept and Concussion blow/Hamstring them.
However if you do out aggro the person kiting the Strider I would imagine you would get one-rounded pretty swiftly.
|
Originally Posted by Tauftamir
However if you do out aggro the person kiting the Strider I would imagine you would get one-rounded pretty swiftly.
|
Edited onPatch 2.1.3
|
Originally Posted by Grymm
Tidewalker is a threat limited fight to you? I can press the tank if I don't get tombed, but the threat cap only goes up. If I was higher DPS, which I'm not because I try not to WW the adds and get killed, I might consider needing more threat reduction. At about 600-800 TPS, the tank will hold over me until I am well over 1k DPS.
|
But he has turned around and 1 shot me before, fortunately he didn't tidal the raid.
| Vashj adds: The blueberries don't attack and you can't full dps the striders. I guess you are talking about the nagas. I don't hit the nagas for the first 10 seconds they are up. I run around the top killing spare blue berries and proccing VR. If a strider is at 50% or less, I'll hit that some. I probably wouldn't use the threat trinket on this fight. |
| On Hydross, I dps down an add on each phase shift before I get back on him. A poorly timed attack will pull hydross on you at 500 or 350 threat. |
The more i look at this trinket, the more it seems like a hybrid/offspec trinket. A decent rogue should never need it, Mages neither properly specced. So it just falls to Moonkins, DPS Warriors and non-resto shaman.
Edit: Including death to Tidewalker WWS log around 1200 DPS: Wow Web Stats
Last edited by Mogwai : 09/13/07 at 10:33 AM. Reason: Including WWS log
|
Originally Posted by Tauftamir
Provided you don't out-aggro the person kiting the Strider it will not turn around and melee you.
Between tanking Naga's myself and our other tank use Berserker Rage to Intercept and Concussion blow/Hamstring them. However if you do out aggro the person kiting the Strider I would imagine you would get one-rounded pretty swiftly. |
I have been reading and reading and reading. Trying to figure out how I can improve myself as far as DPS goes. I have been plugging away at the spreadsheet and can't see why I am so off to what the sheet should say for me and my gear.
Here is the WWS from last night Wow Web Stats
Link to my armory The Armory
Is it my cycle that I am not putting out what I should or have I really peaked at my current gear lvl?
Here is the WWS from last night Wow Web Stats
Link to my armory The Armory
Is it my cycle that I am not putting out what I should or have I really peaked at my current gear lvl?
Cataclysm's Edge trip report: Slam not really worth it compared to what it was when I was using torch. I think I'll max out imp battle shout and put the other point in unbridled wrath or something
My overall dps definitely seems better, though, even putzing around trying to figure out whether or not to use slam in my rotation
My overall dps definitely seems better, though, even putzing around trying to figure out whether or not to use slam in my rotation
|
Originally Posted by slagkrigare
I have been reading and reading and reading. Trying to figure out how I can improve myself as far as DPS goes. I have been plugging away at the spreadsheet and can't see why I am so off to what the sheet should say for me and my gear.
Here is the WWS from last night Wow Web Stats Link to my armory The Armory Is it my cycle that I am not putting out what I should or have I really peaked at my current gear lvl? |
Did you observer your cooldowns and had most of the time bt/ww on cooldown and only threw in hs when you had enough rage?
@Mogwai; you are doing like 300 more DPS then me on tidewalker...without cleaving the crap out of the adds too. Only things i can see that you have that i dont are; Enhancement shaman over me having a resto-shaman (+10% AP, improved totems) a feral druid (5% crit) and a dragonspine trophy.
I THINK i could see that accounting for ~300 more dps, give or take. Especially with the current, insane, state of the DST.
@slagkrigare; You will be bottom DPS unless you have a windfury totem...period. WF will boost you personally (from your Kalathress kill data) up at least 12k more damage and 2 spots on the DPS meter, and the rage from that 12k damage would put you within striking distance of top 5 DPS....from 12th.
Seriously, without Windfury, it's not even worth trying really. I had to do vashj this week without windfury (still working on her...had an elemental and resto shaman show. Elemental shaman to mage group, and resto to MT group for grounding) I couldn't break top 12 DPS in phase 1 either. On phase 2 i tore it up on the elementals...but that's because VR is pure hacks on em.
I THINK i could see that accounting for ~300 more dps, give or take. Especially with the current, insane, state of the DST.
@slagkrigare; You will be bottom DPS unless you have a windfury totem...period. WF will boost you personally (from your Kalathress kill data) up at least 12k more damage and 2 spots on the DPS meter, and the rage from that 12k damage would put you within striking distance of top 5 DPS....from 12th.
Seriously, without Windfury, it's not even worth trying really. I had to do vashj this week without windfury (still working on her...had an elemental and resto shaman show. Elemental shaman to mage group, and resto to MT group for grounding) I couldn't break top 12 DPS in phase 1 either. On phase 2 i tore it up on the elementals...but that's because VR is pure hacks on em.
hi, i read this forum since almost 5months but never posted, so be indulgent plz.
So i read the entire thread today to be sure, and unless im completly blind, im looking for the necessary hit for DW fury in BT.
actually my stats are (zerk stance):
1897 AP
26.85 crit
249hit rating
65 haste rating
I played fury during the whole WoW but did arena on TBC, thats why im little lost.
Could anyone tell me the sense where i have to upgrade my stats ?
FYI, i play with rising tide/switsteel & solarian/DFT as trinkets.
thx for advance
So i read the entire thread today to be sure, and unless im completly blind, im looking for the necessary hit for DW fury in BT.
actually my stats are (zerk stance):
1897 AP
26.85 crit
249hit rating
65 haste rating
I played fury during the whole WoW but did arena on TBC, thats why im little lost.
Could anyone tell me the sense where i have to upgrade my stats ?
FYI, i play with rising tide/switsteel & solarian/DFT as trinkets.
thx for advance
|
Originally Posted by ouis
hi, i read this forum since almost 5months but never posted, so be indulgent plz.
So i read the entire thread today to be sure, and unless im completly blind, im looking for the necessary hit for DW fury in BT. actually my stats are (zerk stance): 1897 AP 26.85 crit 249hit rating 65 haste rating I played fury during the whole WoW but did arena on TBC, thats why im little lost. Could anyone tell me the sense where i have to upgrade my stats ? FYI, i play with rising tide/switsteel & solarian/DFT as trinkets. thx for advance |
|
Originally Posted by Calgar
@Mogwai; you are doing like 300 more DPS then me on tidewalker...without cleaving the crap out of the adds too. Only things i can see that you have that i dont are; Enhancement shaman over me having a resto-shaman (+10% AP, improved totems) a feral druid (5% crit) and a dragonspine trophy.
I THINK i could see that accounting for ~300 more dps, give or take. Especially with the current, insane, state of the DST. @slagkrigare; You will be bottom DPS unless you have a windfury totem...period. WF will boost you personally (from your Kalathress kill data) up at least 12k more damage and 2 spots on the DPS meter, and the rage from that 12k damage would put you within striking distance of top 5 DPS....from 12th. Seriously, without Windfury, it's not even worth trying really. I had to do vashj this week without windfury (still working on her...had an elemental and resto shaman show. Elemental shaman to mage group, and resto to MT group for grounding) I couldn't break top 12 DPS in phase 1 either. On phase 2 i tore it up on the elementals...but that's because VR is pure hacks on em. |
| Keep your hit rating@ around 200, get a little bit more crit and then of course AP, if you wanna see what to shoot for, look me up on armory. |
In terms of current itemization, DST is huge for warriors in terms of DPS increase. (From the numbers i've seen thrown around something like 10-15%)
So that's doesn't really surprise me. Still, the shaman would account for almost a 50% increase in DPS over not having him. (Going from 850ish to 1300) But again, i'm not personally familiar with the fight, what buffs you have, if you are flasked...etc.
So that's doesn't really surprise me. Still, the shaman would account for almost a 50% increase in DPS over not having him. (Going from 850ish to 1300) But again, i'm not personally familiar with the fight, what buffs you have, if you are flasked...etc.
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Originally Posted by Calgar
@slagkrigare; You will be bottom DPS unless you have a windfury totem...period.
Seriously, without Windfury, it's not even worth trying really. |
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Originally Posted by madrussian
Keep your hit rating@ around 200, get a little bit more crit and then of course AP, if you wanna see what to shoot for, look me up on armory.
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Originally Posted by Machinator
Is there something specific about that fight and windfury or are you saying DPS warriors need windfury all the time? I would think something is wrong if you can't do decent DPS without a totem.
And because it keeps coming up over and over, why 200 and not 250 or 150? |
You dont 'NEED' windfury all the time, just that its VERY beneficial. Our last morogrim kill I did 1200 dps without windfury, so you can most definately pull >1000dps without it, just that if you do have it, youll likely be doing over 200 more dps.
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Originally Posted by Fogbug
Cataclysm's Edge trip report: Slam not really worth it compared to what it was when I was using torch. I think I'll max out imp battle shout and put the other point in unbridled wrath or something
My overall dps definitely seems better, though, even putzing around trying to figure out whether or not to use slam in my rotation |
Auto Swing -> MS(WW)?
Thanks
@ the 200 thing. 200 hit is easy to get without focusing on, or gemming for it and it allows you to focus on AP/crit/stamina more.
It seems to be the break even point in itemization. 100 is bad, 200 is good, but 300 would be excellent. 300 though, would force you to give up a ton of other stats to get hit that high. You'd lose more then you'd gain in other words.
It's the same going the other way. It's hard to get your hit much lower then 200 once you are well geared in full T4/T5 gear.
As for windfury, we are a class balanced around assuming we will have it. We benefit double from it compared to other classes in that we get damage from the WF proc, and that damage gives us more rage to do MORE damage. No one's saying you can't do good damage without a WF totem, but you can't be competitive without it, and since i know someone will disagree with me on that point....this is assuming equal gear and skill. Beating up green-geared rogues is no accomplishment in full T6 caliber DPS gear, same with destroying a hunter that doesn't use his pet/steady shot rotation.
The point I'm making here is; If a DPS warrior doesn't have a WF totem, then you'd probably be better off taking another class for that spot, as they (being much less reliant on raid buffs) wouldn't suffer as much from the loss.
People say they get 1000 dps without a WF totem....and while 1000 DPS is good, they are probably tenth or less on the DPS meter, as the gear it takes to do that manner of dps WITHOUT the totem would mean everyone else is pumping out some MEAN dps too.
Example; that vash'j fight i was like 12-15th on in phase 1 i was pulling 900+ dps...which isn't terrible...but there were 12-15 people doing MORE then that. The attempts i have a WF totem I'm from 4-6 on the DPS meter, doing 1150-1200 dps.
It seems to be the break even point in itemization. 100 is bad, 200 is good, but 300 would be excellent. 300 though, would force you to give up a ton of other stats to get hit that high. You'd lose more then you'd gain in other words.
It's the same going the other way. It's hard to get your hit much lower then 200 once you are well geared in full T4/T5 gear.
As for windfury, we are a class balanced around assuming we will have it. We benefit double from it compared to other classes in that we get damage from the WF proc, and that damage gives us more rage to do MORE damage. No one's saying you can't do good damage without a WF totem, but you can't be competitive without it, and since i know someone will disagree with me on that point....this is assuming equal gear and skill. Beating up green-geared rogues is no accomplishment in full T6 caliber DPS gear, same with destroying a hunter that doesn't use his pet/steady shot rotation.
The point I'm making here is; If a DPS warrior doesn't have a WF totem, then you'd probably be better off taking another class for that spot, as they (being much less reliant on raid buffs) wouldn't suffer as much from the loss.
People say they get 1000 dps without a WF totem....and while 1000 DPS is good, they are probably tenth or less on the DPS meter, as the gear it takes to do that manner of dps WITHOUT the totem would mean everyone else is pumping out some MEAN dps too.
Example; that vash'j fight i was like 12-15th on in phase 1 i was pulling 900+ dps...which isn't terrible...but there were 12-15 people doing MORE then that. The attempts i have a WF totem I'm from 4-6 on the DPS meter, doing 1150-1200 dps.
On a related note, I am trying to make a case for including DPS Warriors (specifically MS spec) in our 25 man raid makeup and am having a hard time convincing our officers it is a worthwhile inclusion. Their rationale is that a rogue will do more damage and can more easily mitigate threat.
Does anyone know of a well written post that provides a reasonable point of view that supports the inclusion of DPS warriors in TK and SSC raids specifically?
Does anyone know of a well written post that provides a reasonable point of view that supports the inclusion of DPS warriors in TK and SSC raids specifically?
Decent WWS reports do better than written rationales. There are plenty in this thread alone to justify a DPS warriors spot. Hell just improved Battle shout justifies at least 1.
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Originally Posted by Calgar
In terms of current itemization, DST is huge for warriors in terms of DPS increase. (From the numbers i've seen thrown around something like 10-15%)
So that's doesn't really surprise me. Still, the shaman would account for almost a 50% increase in DPS over not having him. (Going from 850ish to 1300) But again, i'm not personally familiar with the fight, what buffs you have, if you are flasked...etc. |
If you want to compare DPS on a single target you need to compare apples to apples. Teron Gorefiend is best, and to a lesser extend Tidewalker, Solarian, and Anetheron. Tidewalker may be threat limited, Solarian can be masked by AE damage, and you can be slept on Anetheron.
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Originally Posted by vitra
On a related note, I am trying to make a case for including DPS Warriors (specifically MS spec) in our 25 man raid makeup and am having a hard time convincing our officers it is a worthwhile inclusion. Their rationale is that a rogue will do more damage and can more easily mitigate threat.
Does anyone know of a well written post that provides a reasonable point of view that supports the inclusion of DPS warriors in TK and SSC raids specifically? |
Well take this parse: Wow Web Stats
~57% of the damage done to gurtogg was physical, not counting my own. 57% of 5,600,000 is 3,192,000. The Blood Frenzy debuff on gurtogg constituted ~3.85% of that, adding ~122k to my damage which would raise my contribution above CR's, and that's not even counting the ~450ap I give to my group via battle shout. Also, those rogues both have DST's, which is really really huge right now and won't be quite so much after the patch. DPS warriors aren't so amazing that every guild without one needs to rush out and recruit one, but we certainly pull our weight and we bring some really important buffs/debuffs to the table. We also tank trash just fine while still fitting into boss fights better than prot paladins do for healing or feral druids do for DPS
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Originally Posted by lazerpewpew
What would be your rotation then?
Auto Swing -> MS(WW)? Thanks |
I haven't even given up on slam completely yet, really, but with CE I seem to be doing more dps the less I use it so I think I'm over it
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Originally Posted by Natural
Archimonde is not a good fight for DPS comparisons. Fires & Air bursts are dice rolls that will affect how much DPS time melee will have. I've gone from 1022 to 1316 DPS in sequential weeks with minor gear upgrades.
If you want to compare DPS on a single target you need to compare apples to apples. Teron Gorefiend is best, and to a lesser extend Tidewalker, Solarian, and Anetheron. Tidewalker may be threat limited, Solarian can be masked by AE damage, and you can be slept on Anetheron. |
On our first kill i did ~200k more dmg than the next person :O
But I definately agree that Teron is a much better dps benchmark fight, Anetheron is great too but sleeps really suck
This week I got slept twice and my dps went down to below 1600 that I normally pull on him.I have been tombed on Tidewalker 3 times or more the last couple weeks. It really hurts my DPS showing when I lose 30seconds or a minute over the course of the fight to tomb/bandaging/not running in because the healers don't heal me above quake-death levels. All the while I have deep wounds ticking so my dps time keeps rolling. I posted 800 dps last week without a feral druid while dying to murlocs which aggroed me on a imp LoTP or PoMending proc. I hope to use it to accurately measure my DPS potential, but it's just not cooperating. I'm a chestpiece and probably some legs away from a solid DPS setup, but I'm already a trash clearing DPS allstar (no mana, after the first mob no aggro worries).
Edited onPatch 2.1.3
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Originally Posted by Calgar
Seriously, without Windfury, it's not even worth trying really. I had to do vashj this week without windfury (still working on her...had an elemental and resto shaman show. Elemental shaman to mage group, and resto to MT group for grounding) I couldn't break top 12 DPS in phase 1 either. On phase 2 i tore it up on the elementals...but that's because VR is pure hacks on em. |
Im pulling 1222 DPS on Karathress without WF ( The 13 WF attacks are from just attacking fathom lord, not his adds).
My enhance shaman hardly ever gives me WF. So I still think its very possible for DPS warriors to be competitive DPS without WF. Sure it helps but its not neccesary. True Karathress is in my opinion a very friendly melee fight. But it shows what DPS warriors can do without WF.
Im still waiting for my DST to drop as well.
Karathress Kill :WWS Wow Web Stats
Armory The Armory
Armory doesn't seem to be updating, but my unbuffed stats are : 215 Hit, 30.91% crit and 1987 AP.
Last edited by Rishina : 09/13/07 at 7:50 PM.
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Originally Posted by Natural
Archimonde is not a good fight for DPS comparisons. Fires & Air bursts are dice rolls that will affect how much DPS time melee will have. I've gone from 1022 to 1316 DPS in sequential weeks with minor gear upgrades.
If you want to compare DPS on a single target you need to compare apples to apples. Teron Gorefiend is best, and to a lesser extend Tidewalker, Solarian, and Anetheron. Tidewalker may be threat limited, Solarian can be masked by AE damage, and you can be slept on Anetheron. |
€: Should read the next posts next time~~
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Originally Posted by Anduryondon
I dont think that you have that low dps only just because of your gear. Its also a little sad that your raid has only one shaman, but well, that should not be the only reason.
Did you observer your cooldowns and had most of the time bt/ww on cooldown and only threw in hs when you had enough rage? |
yes, ww and bt were almost always on cooldown. the HS you see were probably more on the totems on kara.
I just wanted to make there wasn't something I was doing wrong. I will post some more wws from tonights raid tomorrow.
Greetings, I know this is a Future of warrior dps thread, but, since i am a warrior, and its for my future dps, and there are some amazing posters in here, i was wondering if i could get alittle advice
At present, im using the stage 2 mace. i have the vortex for stage 3, but im undecided. After the haste change, i am unsure if the Dragons trike will be better then the Wicked edge of the plains. I also have the option of the Talon of the Phoenix and talon of Azshara. my present stats are -- Unbuffed: 29.60% Crit, 1890AP, 200hit. My hit will go to around 230 oce i get the Red Belt of battle and Fel-Steel Warhelm. and Ap to around 2k. So im unsure which of these would be the best option for me. (Im not very good with game mechanics maths so unsure the exact dps change of the reduced haste effect)
Also, i have heard rumours that mongoose wont be normalised, if this holds true is this a better mainhand enchant then potency?
Links:
Dragonstrike: Dragonstrike - Items - World of Warcraft
Wicked Edge of the Plains: Wicked Edge of the Planes - Items - World of Warcraft
Talon of the Phoenix: Talon of the Phoenix - Items - World of Warcraft
Talon of Azshara: Talon of Azshara - Items - World of Warcraft
Thank you all for your time, and your help is apreciated
At present, im using the stage 2 mace. i have the vortex for stage 3, but im undecided. After the haste change, i am unsure if the Dragons trike will be better then the Wicked edge of the plains. I also have the option of the Talon of the Phoenix and talon of Azshara. my present stats are -- Unbuffed: 29.60% Crit, 1890AP, 200hit. My hit will go to around 230 oce i get the Red Belt of battle and Fel-Steel Warhelm. and Ap to around 2k. So im unsure which of these would be the best option for me. (Im not very good with game mechanics maths so unsure the exact dps change of the reduced haste effect)
Also, i have heard rumours that mongoose wont be normalised, if this holds true is this a better mainhand enchant then potency?
Links:
Dragonstrike: Dragonstrike - Items - World of Warcraft
Wicked Edge of the Plains: Wicked Edge of the Planes - Items - World of Warcraft
Talon of the Phoenix: Talon of the Phoenix - Items - World of Warcraft
Talon of Azshara: Talon of Azshara - Items - World of Warcraft
Thank you all for your time, and your help is apreciated
Dragonstrike will still be the best out of those weapons.
Edited onPatch 2.1.3
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On a related note, I am trying to make a case for including DPS Warriors (specifically MS spec) in our 25 man raid makeup and am having a hard time convincing our officers it is a worthwhile inclusion. Their rationale is that a rogue will do more damage and can more easily mitigate threat. Does anyone know of a well written post that provides a reasonable point of view that supports the inclusion of DPS warriors in TK and SSC raids specifically? |
Examples:
Wow Web Stats
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Wow Web Stats
Wow Web Stats
Wow Web Stats
Also, how often is Feint actually even used anymore in a raid setting? Vanish sure, is obviously superior to death + Soul Stone/Rebirth, and they also do not have high threat attacks like Heroic Strike or Hamstring, and while yes threat sucks as a Warrior, it's manageable enough when you have good tanks.
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Im pulling 1222 DPS on Karathress without WF ( The 13 WF attacks are from just attacking fathom lord, not his adds). Karathress Kill :WWS Wow Web Stats Armory The Armory |
Last edited by Graul : 09/14/07 at 2:52 AM.
We have the ranged kill the spitfire. If melee start attacking it, we first have to run there then back again. And even when the shaman and the hunter are stacked on top of each other. There is still running involved. Ranged lose virtually no DPS by switching and attacking the spitfire. Melee lose quite alot. That was also only our second kill and last week we only just made the enrage. So we were maximising DPS.
Edited onPatch 2.1.3
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Originally Posted by madrussian
Dragonstrike will still be the best out of those weapons.
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This version of the spreadsheet (http://elitistjerks.com/465290-post1637.html) does not have a working buff and talent section yet, but should have a correct treatment of WF after nerf. There might be errors in it so don't flame me if you get different results
edit: there's actually a new version of the spreadsheet up now, so go to the last page of that thread instead and use the latest version.
Last edited by Gruntle : 09/14/07 at 3:34 AM.
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Originally Posted by Rishina
We have the ranged kill the spitfire. If melee start attacking it, we first have to run there then back again. And even when the shaman and the hunter are stacked on top of each other. There is still running involved. Ranged lose virtually no DPS by switching and attacking the spitfire. Melee lose quite alot. That was also only our second kill and last week we only just made the enrage. So we were maximising DPS.
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ww does not hit the totem... ^^
Cleave does though
Cleave does though
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Originally Posted by ouis
hi, i read this forum since almost 5months but never posted, so be indulgent plz.
So i read the entire thread today to be sure, and unless im completly blind, im looking for the necessary hit for DW fury in BT. actually my stats are (zerk stance): 1897 AP 26.85 crit 249hit rating 65 haste rating I played fury during the whole WoW but did arena on TBC, thats why im little lost. Could anyone tell me the sense where i have to upgrade my stats ? FYI, i play with rising tide/switsteel & solarian/DFT as trinkets. thx for advance |
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Originally Posted by Calgar
@Mogwai; you are doing like 300 more DPS then me on tidewalker...without cleaving the crap out of the adds too. Only things i can see that you have that i dont are; Enhancement shaman over me having a resto-shaman (+10% AP, improved totems) a feral druid (5% crit) and a dragonspine trophy.
I THINK i could see that accounting for ~300 more dps, give or take. Especially with the current, insane, state of the DST. @slagkrigare; You will be bottom DPS unless you have a windfury totem...period. WF will boost you personally (from your Kalathress kill data) up at least 12k more damage and 2 spots on the DPS meter, and the rage from that 12k damage would put you within striking distance of top 5 DPS....from 12th. Seriously, without Windfury, it's not even worth trying really. I had to do vashj this week without windfury (still working on her...had an elemental and resto shaman show. Elemental shaman to mage group, and resto to MT group for grounding) I couldn't break top 12 DPS in phase 1 either. On phase 2 i tore it up on the elementals...but that's because VR is pure hacks on em. |
| Keep your hit rating@ around 200, get a little bit more crit and then of course AP, if you wanna see what to shoot for, look me up on armory. |
In terms of current itemization, DST is huge for warriors in terms of DPS increase. (From the numbers i've seen thrown around something like 10-15%)
So that's doesn't really surprise me. Still, the shaman would account for almost a 50% increase in DPS over not having him. (Going from 850ish to 1300) But again, i'm not personally familiar with the fight, what buffs you have, if you are flasked...etc.
So that's doesn't really surprise me. Still, the shaman would account for almost a 50% increase in DPS over not having him. (Going from 850ish to 1300) But again, i'm not personally familiar with the fight, what buffs you have, if you are flasked...etc.
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Originally Posted by Calgar
@slagkrigare; You will be bottom DPS unless you have a windfury totem...period.
Seriously, without Windfury, it's not even worth trying really. |
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Originally Posted by madrussian
Keep your hit rating@ around 200, get a little bit more crit and then of course AP, if you wanna see what to shoot for, look me up on armory.
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Originally Posted by Machinator
Is there something specific about that fight and windfury or are you saying DPS warriors need windfury all the time? I would think something is wrong if you can't do decent DPS without a totem.
And because it keeps coming up over and over, why 200 and not 250 or 150? |
You dont 'NEED' windfury all the time, just that its VERY beneficial. Our last morogrim kill I did 1200 dps without windfury, so you can most definately pull >1000dps without it, just that if you do have it, youll likely be doing over 200 more dps.
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Originally Posted by Fogbug
Cataclysm's Edge trip report: Slam not really worth it compared to what it was when I was using torch. I think I'll max out imp battle shout and put the other point in unbridled wrath or something
My overall dps definitely seems better, though, even putzing around trying to figure out whether or not to use slam in my rotation |
Auto Swing -> MS(WW)?
Thanks
@ the 200 thing. 200 hit is easy to get without focusing on, or gemming for it and it allows you to focus on AP/crit/stamina more.
It seems to be the break even point in itemization. 100 is bad, 200 is good, but 300 would be excellent. 300 though, would force you to give up a ton of other stats to get hit that high. You'd lose more then you'd gain in other words.
It's the same going the other way. It's hard to get your hit much lower then 200 once you are well geared in full T4/T5 gear.
As for windfury, we are a class balanced around assuming we will have it. We benefit double from it compared to other classes in that we get damage from the WF proc, and that damage gives us more rage to do MORE damage. No one's saying you can't do good damage without a WF totem, but you can't be competitive without it, and since i know someone will disagree with me on that point....this is assuming equal gear and skill. Beating up green-geared rogues is no accomplishment in full T6 caliber DPS gear, same with destroying a hunter that doesn't use his pet/steady shot rotation.
The point I'm making here is; If a DPS warrior doesn't have a WF totem, then you'd probably be better off taking another class for that spot, as they (being much less reliant on raid buffs) wouldn't suffer as much from the loss.
People say they get 1000 dps without a WF totem....and while 1000 DPS is good, they are probably tenth or less on the DPS meter, as the gear it takes to do that manner of dps WITHOUT the totem would mean everyone else is pumping out some MEAN dps too.
Example; that vash'j fight i was like 12-15th on in phase 1 i was pulling 900+ dps...which isn't terrible...but there were 12-15 people doing MORE then that. The attempts i have a WF totem I'm from 4-6 on the DPS meter, doing 1150-1200 dps.
It seems to be the break even point in itemization. 100 is bad, 200 is good, but 300 would be excellent. 300 though, would force you to give up a ton of other stats to get hit that high. You'd lose more then you'd gain in other words.
It's the same going the other way. It's hard to get your hit much lower then 200 once you are well geared in full T4/T5 gear.
As for windfury, we are a class balanced around assuming we will have it. We benefit double from it compared to other classes in that we get damage from the WF proc, and that damage gives us more rage to do MORE damage. No one's saying you can't do good damage without a WF totem, but you can't be competitive without it, and since i know someone will disagree with me on that point....this is assuming equal gear and skill. Beating up green-geared rogues is no accomplishment in full T6 caliber DPS gear, same with destroying a hunter that doesn't use his pet/steady shot rotation.
The point I'm making here is; If a DPS warrior doesn't have a WF totem, then you'd probably be better off taking another class for that spot, as they (being much less reliant on raid buffs) wouldn't suffer as much from the loss.
People say they get 1000 dps without a WF totem....and while 1000 DPS is good, they are probably tenth or less on the DPS meter, as the gear it takes to do that manner of dps WITHOUT the totem would mean everyone else is pumping out some MEAN dps too.
Example; that vash'j fight i was like 12-15th on in phase 1 i was pulling 900+ dps...which isn't terrible...but there were 12-15 people doing MORE then that. The attempts i have a WF totem I'm from 4-6 on the DPS meter, doing 1150-1200 dps.
On a related note, I am trying to make a case for including DPS Warriors (specifically MS spec) in our 25 man raid makeup and am having a hard time convincing our officers it is a worthwhile inclusion. Their rationale is that a rogue will do more damage and can more easily mitigate threat.
Does anyone know of a well written post that provides a reasonable point of view that supports the inclusion of DPS warriors in TK and SSC raids specifically?
Does anyone know of a well written post that provides a reasonable point of view that supports the inclusion of DPS warriors in TK and SSC raids specifically?
Decent WWS reports do better than written rationales. There are plenty in this thread alone to justify a DPS warriors spot. Hell just improved Battle shout justifies at least 1.
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Originally Posted by Calgar
In terms of current itemization, DST is huge for warriors in terms of DPS increase. (From the numbers i've seen thrown around something like 10-15%)
So that's doesn't really surprise me. Still, the shaman would account for almost a 50% increase in DPS over not having him. (Going from 850ish to 1300) But again, i'm not personally familiar with the fight, what buffs you have, if you are flasked...etc. |
If you want to compare DPS on a single target you need to compare apples to apples. Teron Gorefiend is best, and to a lesser extend Tidewalker, Solarian, and Anetheron. Tidewalker may be threat limited, Solarian can be masked by AE damage, and you can be slept on Anetheron.
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Originally Posted by vitra
On a related note, I am trying to make a case for including DPS Warriors (specifically MS spec) in our 25 man raid makeup and am having a hard time convincing our officers it is a worthwhile inclusion. Their rationale is that a rogue will do more damage and can more easily mitigate threat.
Does anyone know of a well written post that provides a reasonable point of view that supports the inclusion of DPS warriors in TK and SSC raids specifically? |
Well take this parse: Wow Web Stats
~57% of the damage done to gurtogg was physical, not counting my own. 57% of 5,600,000 is 3,192,000. The Blood Frenzy debuff on gurtogg constituted ~3.85% of that, adding ~122k to my damage which would raise my contribution above CR's, and that's not even counting the ~450ap I give to my group via battle shout. Also, those rogues both have DST's, which is really really huge right now and won't be quite so much after the patch. DPS warriors aren't so amazing that every guild without one needs to rush out and recruit one, but we certainly pull our weight and we bring some really important buffs/debuffs to the table. We also tank trash just fine while still fitting into boss fights better than prot paladins do for healing or feral druids do for DPS
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Originally Posted by lazerpewpew
What would be your rotation then?
Auto Swing -> MS(WW)? Thanks |
I haven't even given up on slam completely yet, really, but with CE I seem to be doing more dps the less I use it so I think I'm over it
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Originally Posted by Natural
Archimonde is not a good fight for DPS comparisons. Fires & Air bursts are dice rolls that will affect how much DPS time melee will have. I've gone from 1022 to 1316 DPS in sequential weeks with minor gear upgrades.
If you want to compare DPS on a single target you need to compare apples to apples. Teron Gorefiend is best, and to a lesser extend Tidewalker, Solarian, and Anetheron. Tidewalker may be threat limited, Solarian can be masked by AE damage, and you can be slept on Anetheron. |
On our first kill i did ~200k more dmg than the next person :O
But I definately agree that Teron is a much better dps benchmark fight, Anetheron is great too but sleeps really suck
This week I got slept twice and my dps went down to below 1600 that I normally pull on him.I have been tombed on Tidewalker 3 times or more the last couple weeks. It really hurts my DPS showing when I lose 30seconds or a minute over the course of the fight to tomb/bandaging/not running in because the healers don't heal me above quake-death levels. All the while I have deep wounds ticking so my dps time keeps rolling. I posted 800 dps last week without a feral druid while dying to murlocs which aggroed me on a imp LoTP or PoMending proc. I hope to use it to accurately measure my DPS potential, but it's just not cooperating. I'm a chestpiece and probably some legs away from a solid DPS setup, but I'm already a trash clearing DPS allstar (no mana, after the first mob no aggro worries).
Edited onPatch 2.1.3
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Originally Posted by Calgar
Seriously, without Windfury, it's not even worth trying really. I had to do vashj this week without windfury (still working on her...had an elemental and resto shaman show. Elemental shaman to mage group, and resto to MT group for grounding) I couldn't break top 12 DPS in phase 1 either. On phase 2 i tore it up on the elementals...but that's because VR is pure hacks on em. |
Im pulling 1222 DPS on Karathress without WF ( The 13 WF attacks are from just attacking fathom lord, not his adds).
My enhance shaman hardly ever gives me WF. So I still think its very possible for DPS warriors to be competitive DPS without WF. Sure it helps but its not neccesary. True Karathress is in my opinion a very friendly melee fight. But it shows what DPS warriors can do without WF.
Im still waiting for my DST to drop as well.
Karathress Kill :WWS Wow Web Stats
Armory The Armory
Armory doesn't seem to be updating, but my unbuffed stats are : 215 Hit, 30.91% crit and 1987 AP.
Last edited by Rishina : 09/13/07 at 7:50 PM.
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Originally Posted by Natural
Archimonde is not a good fight for DPS comparisons. Fires & Air bursts are dice rolls that will affect how much DPS time melee will have. I've gone from 1022 to 1316 DPS in sequential weeks with minor gear upgrades.
If you want to compare DPS on a single target you need to compare apples to apples. Teron Gorefiend is best, and to a lesser extend Tidewalker, Solarian, and Anetheron. Tidewalker may be threat limited, Solarian can be masked by AE damage, and you can be slept on Anetheron. |
€: Should read the next posts next time~~
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Originally Posted by Anduryondon
I dont think that you have that low dps only just because of your gear. Its also a little sad that your raid has only one shaman, but well, that should not be the only reason.
Did you observer your cooldowns and had most of the time bt/ww on cooldown and only threw in hs when you had enough rage? |
yes, ww and bt were almost always on cooldown. the HS you see were probably more on the totems on kara.
I just wanted to make there wasn't something I was doing wrong. I will post some more wws from tonights raid tomorrow.
Greetings, I know this is a Future of warrior dps thread, but, since i am a warrior, and its for my future dps, and there are some amazing posters in here, i was wondering if i could get alittle advice
At present, im using the stage 2 mace. i have the vortex for stage 3, but im undecided. After the haste change, i am unsure if the Dragons trike will be better then the Wicked edge of the plains. I also have the option of the Talon of the Phoenix and talon of Azshara. my present stats are -- Unbuffed: 29.60% Crit, 1890AP, 200hit. My hit will go to around 230 oce i get the Red Belt of battle and Fel-Steel Warhelm. and Ap to around 2k. So im unsure which of these would be the best option for me. (Im not very good with game mechanics maths so unsure the exact dps change of the reduced haste effect)
Also, i have heard rumours that mongoose wont be normalised, if this holds true is this a better mainhand enchant then potency?
Links:
Dragonstrike: Dragonstrike - Items - World of Warcraft
Wicked Edge of the Plains: Wicked Edge of the Planes - Items - World of Warcraft
Talon of the Phoenix: Talon of the Phoenix - Items - World of Warcraft
Talon of Azshara: Talon of Azshara - Items - World of Warcraft
Thank you all for your time, and your help is apreciated
At present, im using the stage 2 mace. i have the vortex for stage 3, but im undecided. After the haste change, i am unsure if the Dragons trike will be better then the Wicked edge of the plains. I also have the option of the Talon of the Phoenix and talon of Azshara. my present stats are -- Unbuffed: 29.60% Crit, 1890AP, 200hit. My hit will go to around 230 oce i get the Red Belt of battle and Fel-Steel Warhelm. and Ap to around 2k. So im unsure which of these would be the best option for me. (Im not very good with game mechanics maths so unsure the exact dps change of the reduced haste effect)
Also, i have heard rumours that mongoose wont be normalised, if this holds true is this a better mainhand enchant then potency?
Links:
Dragonstrike: Dragonstrike - Items - World of Warcraft
Wicked Edge of the Plains: Wicked Edge of the Planes - Items - World of Warcraft
Talon of the Phoenix: Talon of the Phoenix - Items - World of Warcraft
Talon of Azshara: Talon of Azshara - Items - World of Warcraft
Thank you all for your time, and your help is apreciated
Dragonstrike will still be the best out of those weapons.
Edited onPatch 2.1.3
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On a related note, I am trying to make a case for including DPS Warriors (specifically MS spec) in our 25 man raid makeup and am having a hard time convincing our officers it is a worthwhile inclusion. Their rationale is that a rogue will do more damage and can more easily mitigate threat. Does anyone know of a well written post that provides a reasonable point of view that supports the inclusion of DPS warriors in TK and SSC raids specifically? |
Examples:
Wow Web Stats
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Wow Web Stats
Wow Web Stats
Wow Web Stats
Also, how often is Feint actually even used anymore in a raid setting? Vanish sure, is obviously superior to death + Soul Stone/Rebirth, and they also do not have high threat attacks like Heroic Strike or Hamstring, and while yes threat sucks as a Warrior, it's manageable enough when you have good tanks.
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Im pulling 1222 DPS on Karathress without WF ( The 13 WF attacks are from just attacking fathom lord, not his adds). Karathress Kill :WWS Wow Web Stats Armory The Armory |
Last edited by Graul : 09/14/07 at 2:52 AM.
We have the ranged kill the spitfire. If melee start attacking it, we first have to run there then back again. And even when the shaman and the hunter are stacked on top of each other. There is still running involved. Ranged lose virtually no DPS by switching and attacking the spitfire. Melee lose quite alot. That was also only our second kill and last week we only just made the enrage. So we were maximising DPS.
Edited onPatch 2.1.3
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Originally Posted by madrussian
Dragonstrike will still be the best out of those weapons.
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This version of the spreadsheet (http://elitistjerks.com/465290-post1637.html) does not have a working buff and talent section yet, but should have a correct treatment of WF after nerf. There might be errors in it so don't flame me if you get different results
edit: there's actually a new version of the spreadsheet up now, so go to the last page of that thread instead and use the latest version.
Last edited by Gruntle : 09/14/07 at 3:34 AM.
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Originally Posted by Rishina
We have the ranged kill the spitfire. If melee start attacking it, we first have to run there then back again. And even when the shaman and the hunter are stacked on top of each other. There is still running involved. Ranged lose virtually no DPS by switching and attacking the spitfire. Melee lose quite alot. That was also only our second kill and last week we only just made the enrage. So we were maximising DPS.
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ww does not hit the totem... ^^
Cleave does though
Cleave does though
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Originally Posted by Ashbash
any know any details on warrior talents in the enxt expansion or when we might see somthing?
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Anybody know what's up with Surefooted? My Rogues are telling me it gives much more than 10 hit rating.
Edited onPatch 2.1.3
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Originally Posted by Emeraude
Anybody know what's up with Surefooted? My Rogues are telling me it gives much more than 10 hit rating.
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Unless it's providing something other than the tooltip displays, or more (but not showing up). If so; I'm interested.
Last edited by Gokey : 09/18/07 at 4:22 PM.
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Originally Posted by Gokey
Switching my boots on and off only gives me 10 hit rating... unless of course you mean the 5% snare resist it also provides.
Unless of course it's providing something other than the tooltip displays, or more (but not showing up). If so; I'm interested. |
according to thottbot the aura it applies seems to be the correct one, 5% snare and 10 hit rating
I think it would be interesting if they added a low dmg, threat reducting, high rage, stackable instant attack as a top tier fury ability. Or maybe not an attack as that would not seem to make much sense to lower threat, but you get the picture.
Sorry for derailing the thread a little, but I couldn't find a better place to ask this in:
with the 2.2 haste nerf, will the 13% haste proc on the drakefist series still be better than the planar axe series, factoring in my orc axe skill adding +3% hit with the planar axe? I couldn't find any solid calculations anywhere.
with the 2.2 haste nerf, will the 13% haste proc on the drakefist series still be better than the planar axe series, factoring in my orc axe skill adding +3% hit with the planar axe? I couldn't find any solid calculations anywhere.
edit: Didn't realize what page I was quoting from
I've been having an arguement lately with the other officer in my guild about bringing a 2h MS blood-frenzy specced warrior to raids versus a well geared DW fury warrior.
A couple of things I always say are that,
1. MS DPS is far to reliant on windufry totems. One night we may not have one, and then we havea 400-500 dps ball and chain bringing down the raid. Plus WF seems only to add about 150 or so dps.
2. Blood frenzy adds about (I have not done the exact math, so this is just a guess) 30-40 DPS to each physical damage dealer. I personally would rather have one DW fury warrior in the raid doing 1100 PDS, then that.
Now, the reason im posting here is because I WANT to be proved wrong or right. Please help me out here so I know what is better for my raid groups.
A couple of things I always say are that,
1. MS DPS is far to reliant on windufry totems. One night we may not have one, and then we havea 400-500 dps ball and chain bringing down the raid. Plus WF seems only to add about 150 or so dps.
2. Blood frenzy adds about (I have not done the exact math, so this is just a guess) 30-40 DPS to each physical damage dealer. I personally would rather have one DW fury warrior in the raid doing 1100 PDS, then that.
Now, the reason im posting here is because I WANT to be proved wrong or right. Please help me out here so I know what is better for my raid groups.
There is no proof. You take 4% of your physical dps and compare it against the difference in DPS of an 33/28 warrior versus a 17/44 warrior. The variances in gear, skill, raid composition, and particular encounter determine the outcome. My guild does not use a blood frenzy warrior. A lot of guilds do. There are 33/28 warriors out there that out dps me. There are 33/28 warriors out there that I would beat by more than the 4% buff difference. Log a kill in WWS and get a feel for how much the blood frenzy buff could of added.
Edited onPatch 2.1.3
There's no way around the argument that 33/28 is WF reliant, any 2-h build will be that way, however 400-500 DPS is just silly. Granted my gear is quite a bit above-average I can still do 950-1000 without WF.
If you want to figure out how having a Blood Frenzy warrior would affect your raid do this - run damage meters/recap/whatever and collect the damage for each physical DPSer in your raid (hunters, warriors, rogues, enh shaman, whatever) and use this formula
(Damage * 0.04)
to find out what their damage added by Blood Frenzy would have been. The way I define the reason for me spec is that the amount of damage I add is higher than the amount of damage I "lose" by not being DWFury.
If you're currently running as Blood Frenzy - To figure out the damage gained by the raid with Blood Frenzy use (Damage - (Damage/1,04)) for each physical DPSer. For a strict comparison of BF vs Fury just add the damage gained by the raid into your own to get your "effective" DPS.
If you want to figure out how having a Blood Frenzy warrior would affect your raid do this - run damage meters/recap/whatever and collect the damage for each physical DPSer in your raid (hunters, warriors, rogues, enh shaman, whatever) and use this formula
(Damage * 0.04)
to find out what their damage added by Blood Frenzy would have been. The way I define the reason for me spec is that the amount of damage I add is higher than the amount of damage I "lose" by not being DWFury.
If you're currently running as Blood Frenzy - To figure out the damage gained by the raid with Blood Frenzy use (Damage - (Damage/1,04)) for each physical DPSer. For a strict comparison of BF vs Fury just add the damage gained by the raid into your own to get your "effective" DPS.
Last edited by Kiranat : 09/19/07 at 5:36 PM.
I do very fine DPS with 33/28 and just WF/Str. Coupled with Blood Frenzy it's definitly worth it.
Any other comments on Slam? Is it still worth it if you stack haste? I've played with it and the 2 flaws I saw with slam were
A. Timing - If one misses the correct timing they can delay the next auto swing longer than desired, or overlap and lose an auto swing all together. Losing the Auto swing was a huge loss from missing rage and no damage.
B. Camp - Since slam is a cast one has to be standing still. When I played it i found myself stuck watching my swing timer and not enjoying the fight.
I'm not sure what i would do with those other 2 points in fury as they are needed to get to Flurry. Ive studied Serida's reports and it seems slam is not required for 2h dps.
A. Timing - If one misses the correct timing they can delay the next auto swing longer than desired, or overlap and lose an auto swing all together. Losing the Auto swing was a huge loss from missing rage and no damage.
B. Camp - Since slam is a cast one has to be standing still. When I played it i found myself stuck watching my swing timer and not enjoying the fight.
I'm not sure what i would do with those other 2 points in fury as they are needed to get to Flurry. Ive studied Serida's reports and it seems slam is not required for 2h dps.
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Originally Posted by Kiranat
If you want to figure out how having a Blood Frenzy warrior would affect your raid do this - run damage meters/recap/whatever and collect the damage for each physical DPSer in your raid (hunters, warriors, rogues, enh shaman, whatever) and use this formula
((Damage*1.04)*0.04) to find out what their damage added by Blood Frenzy would have been. The way I define the reason for me spec is that the amount of damage I add is higher than the amount of damage I "lose" by not being DWFury. If you're currently running as Blood Frenzy - To figure out the damage gained by the raid with Blood Frenzy use ((Damage/1.04)*0.04) for each physical DPSer. For a strict comparison of BF vs Fury just add the damage gained by the raid into your own to get your "effective" DPS. |
The first equation should be ( ( damage.physical * 1.04 ) - damage.physical ), which can be simplified to ( damage.physical * 0.04 ).
The second equation should be ( damage.physical - ( damage.physical / 1.04 ) ).
Note that it's not as simple as taking the total damage done by physical DPS classes and applying the formula. Abilities such as rogue poisons, serpent sting, and shocks are not affected by BF and need to be removed from the total before calculating.
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Originally Posted by smor
Any other comments on Slam? Is it still worth it if you stack haste? I've played with it and the 2 flaws I saw with slam were
A. Timing - If one misses the correct timing they can delay the next auto swing longer than desired, or overlap and lose an auto swing all together. Losing the Auto swing was a huge loss from missing rage and no damage. B. Camp - Since slam is a cast one has to be standing still. When I played it i found myself stuck watching my swing timer and not enjoying the fight. |
B. If you don't enjoy playing as the spec, it can still be viable. This doesn't mean that you have to spec that way.
Time for me to re-hijack my thread back... and pose a new question:
What's your view on hit rating beyond 95?
I've seen people say that it shouldn't be ignored, but not stacked, I've seen people say it should be stacked like any other stat, and I've seen people say it should be ignored after 95.
The majority of the dps warriors that I respect as knowledgeable about the class suggest that after 95 hit rating, more +hit is a relatively weak stat when compared to +crit and +str. I want to know how valid people think this argument is. I personally believe that it shouldn't be ignored, and that it shouldn't be "stacked" per se, but focused on more than most suggest.
The major argument against stacking it is that +hit is for generating rage, and generating rage alone. Therefore after 95 hit rating (the point at which all special abilities will hit) all the extra hit rating is doing is generating more rage for you to use. This is negligible therefore since a fury warrior running with windfury and other raid buffs is rarely if ever starved for rage. What I don't agree with here is that +hit is only a means to gain rage. Every attack that lands instead of misses, is a source of damage as well as rage, not just rage. Granted the white attack could be a glancing blow and therefore have reduced damage and be incapable of a crit, it's still added damage.
If we're to compare hit with the other two important stats, crit and strength, then it's a little harder to see which comes out on top in terms of priority. Especially with the addition of gems to the game.
Looking at it from a whole % value where the warrior's stats are balanced, 16 hit rating is roughly equivalent to 1% more dps. As is 22 crit rating, and a variable amount of attack power/strength (depending how much attack power/strength the warrior has). Just looking at it this way, it's evident that strength/attack power becomes a weaker and weaker stat when the warrior has more of it. In order to gain 1% of the warrior's dps at 100 dps, only 7 strength is needed (14 attack power = 1 dps). This is much cheaper than getting 22 crit rating or 16 hit rating. However, at a point where the warrior has 1000 dps, 10 dps is needed to increase the total dps by 1%. Now we need 140 attack power to gain the same overall percentage increase as we did previously, so this alternative is no longer cheaper than 22 crit rating or 16 hit rating. The reason 22 crit rating and 16 hit rating are valued higher than an equivalent dps increase from attack power in my view, is that they are a static % increase in dps regardless of how much of each stat the warrior currently has.
Now obviously there are caps to how much +hit or +crit you can have and still be useful. In general however, at a point where the warrior is running with 2000 attack power, an increase in dps through crit/hit is much cheaper and easier to get than an equivalent increase in attack power. Another point I should mention before I'm flamed against it, is that there is also a balance that needs to be maintained in the "holy trinity" of warrior stats. The more strength you have, the less valuable it is compared to crit/hit, the more crit you have, the less valuable in comparison to the other two stats it is... and so forth.
Unfortunately, most other warriors I have seen discussing this point leave out +hit in the "holy trinity" so it becomes a holy duality. They claim that the extra rage gained from having that +hit is threat inefficient because it forces the warrior to use heroic strike/cleave more to dump rage. What I want to know is that, given the surplus of rage, why warriors think they need to dump all that rage inefficiently, why can't we accept the added white damage from +hit as simply more dps, and not use the surplus rage inefficiently.
Given these arguments, I want to take another look at the relative cost of a % increase in dps from the three different sources. Assuming the warrior is doing 1000 dps (respectable, but not insane), we would need 22 crit rating (1% crit), 16 hit rating (1% hit) or 70 strength (10 dps) in order to have the same impact on our overall dps. Granted that these numbers are rough, and that there are other intricacies that affect the usefulness of each stat, such as Impale and Flurry inflating the value of crit and Bloodthirst inflating the value of strength. However, the modification they make to this argument is small enough to be overlooked for the time being. When we look at these values, 70 strength is almost 9 full gems of +8 strength. 22 crit rating is almost 3 gems of +8 crit rating, while 16 hit rating is onl 2 gems of +8 hit rating. Judging the stats from this point of view, +hit is the cheapest way to get more dps (within a reasonable balance of stats). Then +crit, then +strength.
To make comparisons fairer, let's assume the warrior has the minimum stats that have been generally realized by the warrior community as "needed" to do effective dps. 33% crit to ensure an optimum Flurry uptime, and 9% hit to ensure that no special attacks miss. Given these values, added crit and added hit have no "major" impact on the warrior's dps, that is to say that added amounts of each stat have no value beyond an increase in general damge done. Beyond 33% crit, crit is useful because it doubles the damage of our white attacks, and multiplies the damage of our special attacks by a factor of 2.1 (from Impale). The added amount of damage from Impale, as well as the fact that added crit will affect both white and yellow damage, crit is a very valuable stat. Adding hit instead, our special attacks already are guaranteed to land, we have not reached the crit cap and therefore they do not subsequently increase our "useful" crit chance, all they do is increase the chances of our white attacks landing. This is a flat 1% increase in white damage. Now compare this all to strength, an added amount of 70 strength is needed to compare to 1% values of the other two stats, we can deflate this value a little by saying that more strength = more attack power = harder Bloodthirst hits, which form a substantial amount of our dps. Even so, we can safely say that this would not inflate the value of strength so much as to make 16 strength an equivalent dps increase as 16 hit rating or 16 crit rating (here I'm inflating the value of crit due to it's effect via Impale).
Judging by these comparisons, I would say that after 95 hit rating, (roughly) 33% crit and 1000 steady dps have been achieved, the priority of increasing stats should be +crit then +hit, then +str.
I'll stress this one last time however: I firmly believe that no stat listed should be taken into extremes that would put it out of balance with the other two.
Tell me what you think of this prioritization, discounting the new stat from BT (Haste).
What's your view on hit rating beyond 95?
I've seen people say that it shouldn't be ignored, but not stacked, I've seen people say it should be stacked like any other stat, and I've seen people say it should be ignored after 95.
The majority of the dps warriors that I respect as knowledgeable about the class suggest that after 95 hit rating, more +hit is a relatively weak stat when compared to +crit and +str. I want to know how valid people think this argument is. I personally believe that it shouldn't be ignored, and that it shouldn't be "stacked" per se, but focused on more than most suggest.
The major argument against stacking it is that +hit is for generating rage, and generating rage alone. Therefore after 95 hit rating (the point at which all special abilities will hit) all the extra hit rating is doing is generating more rage for you to use. This is negligible therefore since a fury warrior running with windfury and other raid buffs is rarely if ever starved for rage. What I don't agree with here is that +hit is only a means to gain rage. Every attack that lands instead of misses, is a source of damage as well as rage, not just rage. Granted the white attack could be a glancing blow and therefore have reduced damage and be incapable of a crit, it's still added damage.
If we're to compare hit with the other two important stats, crit and strength, then it's a little harder to see which comes out on top in terms of priority. Especially with the addition of gems to the game.
Looking at it from a whole % value where the warrior's stats are balanced, 16 hit rating is roughly equivalent to 1% more dps. As is 22 crit rating, and a variable amount of attack power/strength (depending how much attack power/strength the warrior has). Just looking at it this way, it's evident that strength/attack power becomes a weaker and weaker stat when the warrior has more of it. In order to gain 1% of the warrior's dps at 100 dps, only 7 strength is needed (14 attack power = 1 dps). This is much cheaper than getting 22 crit rating or 16 hit rating. However, at a point where the warrior has 1000 dps, 10 dps is needed to increase the total dps by 1%. Now we need 140 attack power to gain the same overall percentage increase as we did previously, so this alternative is no longer cheaper than 22 crit rating or 16 hit rating. The reason 22 crit rating and 16 hit rating are valued higher than an equivalent dps increase from attack power in my view, is that they are a static % increase in dps regardless of how much of each stat the warrior currently has.
Now obviously there are caps to how much +hit or +crit you can have and still be useful. In general however, at a point where the warrior is running with 2000 attack power, an increase in dps through crit/hit is much cheaper and easier to get than an equivalent increase in attack power. Another point I should mention before I'm flamed against it, is that there is also a balance that needs to be maintained in the "holy trinity" of warrior stats. The more strength you have, the less valuable it is compared to crit/hit, the more crit you have, the less valuable in comparison to the other two stats it is... and so forth.
Unfortunately, most other warriors I have seen discussing this point leave out +hit in the "holy trinity" so it becomes a holy duality. They claim that the extra rage gained from having that +hit is threat inefficient because it forces the warrior to use heroic strike/cleave more to dump rage. What I want to know is that, given the surplus of rage, why warriors think they need to dump all that rage inefficiently, why can't we accept the added white damage from +hit as simply more dps, and not use the surplus rage inefficiently.
Given these arguments, I want to take another look at the relative cost of a % increase in dps from the three different sources. Assuming the warrior is doing 1000 dps (respectable, but not insane), we would need 22 crit rating (1% crit), 16 hit rating (1% hit) or 70 strength (10 dps) in order to have the same impact on our overall dps. Granted that these numbers are rough, and that there are other intricacies that affect the usefulness of each stat, such as Impale and Flurry inflating the value of crit and Bloodthirst inflating the value of strength. However, the modification they make to this argument is small enough to be overlooked for the time being. When we look at these values, 70 strength is almost 9 full gems of +8 strength. 22 crit rating is almost 3 gems of +8 crit rating, while 16 hit rating is onl 2 gems of +8 hit rating. Judging the stats from this point of view, +hit is the cheapest way to get more dps (within a reasonable balance of stats). Then +crit, then +strength.
To make comparisons fairer, let's assume the warrior has the minimum stats that have been generally realized by the warrior community as "needed" to do effective dps. 33% crit to ensure an optimum Flurry uptime, and 9% hit to ensure that no special attacks miss. Given these values, added crit and added hit have no "major" impact on the warrior's dps, that is to say that added amounts of each stat have no value beyond an increase in general damge done. Beyond 33% crit, crit is useful because it doubles the damage of our white attacks, and multiplies the damage of our special attacks by a factor of 2.1 (from Impale). The added amount of damage from Impale, as well as the fact that added crit will affect both white and yellow damage, crit is a very valuable stat. Adding hit instead, our special attacks already are guaranteed to land, we have not reached the crit cap and therefore they do not subsequently increase our "useful" crit chance, all they do is increase the chances of our white attacks landing. This is a flat 1% increase in white damage. Now compare this all to strength, an added amount of 70 strength is needed to compare to 1% values of the other two stats, we can deflate this value a little by saying that more strength = more attack power = harder Bloodthirst hits, which form a substantial amount of our dps. Even so, we can safely say that this would not inflate the value of strength so much as to make 16 strength an equivalent dps increase as 16 hit rating or 16 crit rating (here I'm inflating the value of crit due to it's effect via Impale).
Judging by these comparisons, I would say that after 95 hit rating, (roughly) 33% crit and 1000 steady dps have been achieved, the priority of increasing stats should be +crit then +hit, then +str.
I'll stress this one last time however: I firmly believe that no stat listed should be taken into extremes that would put it out of balance with the other two.
Tell me what you think of this prioritization, discounting the new stat from BT (Haste).
The most convincing argument I've seen in favor of the 33/28 for PvE concerns threat. Even though 17/44 warriors can pull some serious damage, there aren't a ton of encounters without a threat cap. If you can do enough damage to threat cap yourself with 33/28 instead of full fury, you may as well provide the Blood Frenzy debuff to your raid members who have more threat control (rogues, hunters.)
Edited onPatch 2.1.3
"The majority of the dps warriors that I respect as knowledgeable about the class suggest that after 95 hit rating, more +hit is a relatively weak stat when compared to +crit and +str. I want to know how valid people think this argument is. I personally believe that it shouldn't be ignored, and that it shouldn't be "stacked" per se, but focused on more than most suggest."
A large portion of the "don't focus on hit" comes from the fact that once you hit T5 level gear, being above the 95 +hit rating is a given. If I had 0 +hit gems, I would be at 165 hit rating without having full T5 gear. You will passively achieve 200 hit rating without gearing for it. More stats is always more stats so you move from Bladespire warbands to Bracers of Eradication. That's a 17 hit upgrade. I don't think anyone is arguing that you should take an item with 5 more strength at the expense of 20 hit, merely that, 1 for 1, both strength and crit which increase all damage dealt are superior to hit which increases only white damage after 95. When you stack massive haste buffs, hit becomes more valuable. If you had a fight where white damage far and away overpowers your yellow damage, you would stack hit. In general, though, as your rage generation increases, your white damage component decreases due to the addition of HSs which, again, do not benefit from additional +hit. Additional hit levels out your rage generation and is generally helpful. It is not worth gemming for or specifically gearing towards.
"Granted the white attack could be a glancing blow and therefore have reduced damage and be incapable of a crit, it's still added damage."
The way this is worded sounds like you're not using a single roll attack table. Glances and crits are generally mutually exclusive.
"Looking at it from a whole % value where the warrior's stats are balanced, 16 hit rating is roughly equivalent to 1% more dps. As is 22 crit rating, and a variable amount of attack power/strength (depending how much attack power/strength the warrior has). Just looking at it this way, it's evident that strength/attack power becomes a weaker and weaker stat when the warrior has more of it. In order to gain 1% of the warrior's dps at 100 dps, only 7 strength is needed (14 attack power = 1 dps). This is much cheaper than getting 22 crit rating or 16 hit rating. However, at a point where the warrior has 1000 dps, 10 dps is needed to increase the total dps by 1%. Now we need 140 attack power to gain the same overall percentage increase as we did previously, so this alternative is no longer cheaper than 22 crit rating or 16 hit rating. The reason 22 crit rating and 16 hit rating are valued higher than an equivalent dps increase from attack power in my view, is that they are a static % increase in dps regardless of how much of each stat the warrior currently has. "
This paragraph is flat wrong. At 100% hit, a warrior gains 162.5% of his ap bonus for white DPS with additional returns due to flurry, special moves, and crits. 14 ap is not a 1 DPS increase. General predictions put it around 4-5 dps based on a .35 dps per AP return. 1% hit leads to an increase of white damage portion of your attack. You would need a WWS report to even guesstimate what kind of increase that is. 1% crit also increases flurry uptime, stacks with impale, and generates more rage from white hits. I did a brief test of AP versus Crit to see what was more beneficial to stack a couple pages back and the crossover point (crit scaling and ap being a flat return) was somewhere around 4500 sustained AP.
33% crit has nothing to do with perma flurry. There is no permaflurry. Your flurry uptime asymptotically increases 100% as your crit rate approaches 100%. Your flurry up time rises dramatically from 0% crit to 10% crit. It rises less rapidly form 10% to 20%. It rises yet more slowly from 20% to 30%. Raid buffed up in the upper 30s or low 40s, your flurry uptime only creeps up with more crit. 33% is in no way a magic number.
My personal set would be 200 hit rating basically entirely from base gear stats with 30% zerker crit and as much AP as I can jam onto that gear. If my gear adds up to 190 rating, so be it. If I'm at 240 rating, that doesn't hurt.
A large portion of the "don't focus on hit" comes from the fact that once you hit T5 level gear, being above the 95 +hit rating is a given. If I had 0 +hit gems, I would be at 165 hit rating without having full T5 gear. You will passively achieve 200 hit rating without gearing for it. More stats is always more stats so you move from Bladespire warbands to Bracers of Eradication. That's a 17 hit upgrade. I don't think anyone is arguing that you should take an item with 5 more strength at the expense of 20 hit, merely that, 1 for 1, both strength and crit which increase all damage dealt are superior to hit which increases only white damage after 95. When you stack massive haste buffs, hit becomes more valuable. If you had a fight where white damage far and away overpowers your yellow damage, you would stack hit. In general, though, as your rage generation increases, your white damage component decreases due to the addition of HSs which, again, do not benefit from additional +hit. Additional hit levels out your rage generation and is generally helpful. It is not worth gemming for or specifically gearing towards.
"Granted the white attack could be a glancing blow and therefore have reduced damage and be incapable of a crit, it's still added damage."
The way this is worded sounds like you're not using a single roll attack table. Glances and crits are generally mutually exclusive.
"Looking at it from a whole % value where the warrior's stats are balanced, 16 hit rating is roughly equivalent to 1% more dps. As is 22 crit rating, and a variable amount of attack power/strength (depending how much attack power/strength the warrior has). Just looking at it this way, it's evident that strength/attack power becomes a weaker and weaker stat when the warrior has more of it. In order to gain 1% of the warrior's dps at 100 dps, only 7 strength is needed (14 attack power = 1 dps). This is much cheaper than getting 22 crit rating or 16 hit rating. However, at a point where the warrior has 1000 dps, 10 dps is needed to increase the total dps by 1%. Now we need 140 attack power to gain the same overall percentage increase as we did previously, so this alternative is no longer cheaper than 22 crit rating or 16 hit rating. The reason 22 crit rating and 16 hit rating are valued higher than an equivalent dps increase from attack power in my view, is that they are a static % increase in dps regardless of how much of each stat the warrior currently has. "
This paragraph is flat wrong. At 100% hit, a warrior gains 162.5% of his ap bonus for white DPS with additional returns due to flurry, special moves, and crits. 14 ap is not a 1 DPS increase. General predictions put it around 4-5 dps based on a .35 dps per AP return. 1% hit leads to an increase of white damage portion of your attack. You would need a WWS report to even guesstimate what kind of increase that is. 1% crit also increases flurry uptime, stacks with impale, and generates more rage from white hits. I did a brief test of AP versus Crit to see what was more beneficial to stack a couple pages back and the crossover point (crit scaling and ap being a flat return) was somewhere around 4500 sustained AP.
33% crit has nothing to do with perma flurry. There is no permaflurry. Your flurry uptime asymptotically increases 100% as your crit rate approaches 100%. Your flurry up time rises dramatically from 0% crit to 10% crit. It rises less rapidly form 10% to 20%. It rises yet more slowly from 20% to 30%. Raid buffed up in the upper 30s or low 40s, your flurry uptime only creeps up with more crit. 33% is in no way a magic number.
My personal set would be 200 hit rating basically entirely from base gear stats with 30% zerker crit and as much AP as I can jam onto that gear. If my gear adds up to 190 rating, so be it. If I'm at 240 rating, that doesn't hurt.
Last edited by Grymm : 09/19/07 at 4:26 PM.
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Originally Posted by Dasein
I believe your math is off. We want to calculate the difference between damage with BF and damage without BF.
The first equation should be ( ( damage.physical * 1.04 ) - damage.physical ), which can be simplified to ( damage.physical * 0.04 ). The second equation should be ( damage.physical - ( damage.physical / 1.04 ) ). Note that it's not as simple as taking the total damage done by physical DPS classes and applying the formula. Abilities such as rogue poisons, serpent sting, and shocks are not affected by BF and need to be removed from the total before calculating. |
And yes, it's not that simple, however from all the logs and WWS I've looked through poison damage and (lol) serpent sting and the like produce almost negligable damage, 1-2% of the total damage being added with a sweeping formula. Obviously if you want an exact number it would be best to dig through recap or WWS and manually add everything up, but for the 15-20 DPS being mistakenly added if even that I'm not overly concerned. That said, Scorpid poison can add up to a pretty large amount so that's definitely worth taking out.
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Originally Posted by Grymm
"Looking at it from a whole % value where the warrior's stats are balanced, 16 hit rating is roughly equivalent to 1% more dps. As is 22 crit rating, and a variable amount of attack power/strength (depending how much attack power/strength the warrior has). Just looking at it this way, it's evident that strength/attack power becomes a weaker and weaker stat when the warrior has more of it. In order to gain 1% of the warrior's dps at 100 dps, only 7 strength is needed (14 attack power = 1 dps). This is much cheaper than getting 22 crit rating or 16 hit rating. However, at a point where the warrior has 1000 dps, 10 dps is needed to increase the total dps by 1%. Now we need 140 attack power to gain the same overall percentage increase as we did previously, so this alternative is no longer cheaper than 22 crit rating or 16 hit rating. The reason 22 crit rating and 16 hit rating are valued higher than an equivalent dps increase from attack power in my view, is that they are a static % increase in dps regardless of how much of each stat the warrior currently has. "
This paragraph is flat wrong. At 100% hit, a warrior gains 162.5% of his ap bonus for white DPS with additional returns due to flurry, special moves, and crits. 14 ap is not a 1 DPS increase. General predictions put it around 4-5 dps based on a .35 dps per AP return. 1% hit leads to an increase of white damage portion of your attack. You would need a WWS report to even guesstimate what kind of increase that is. 1% crit also increases flurry uptime, stacks with impale, and generates more rage from white hits. I did a brief test of AP versus Crit to see what was more beneficial to stack a couple pages back and the crossover point (crit scaling and ap being a flat return) was somewhere around 4500 sustained AP. 33% crit has nothing to do with perma flurry. There is no permaflurry. Your flurry uptime asymptotically increases 100% as your crit rate approaches 100%. Your flurry up time rises dramatically from 0% crit to 10% crit. It rises less rapidly form 10% to 20%. It rises yet more slowly from 20% to 30%. Raid buffed up in the upper 30s or low 40s, your flurry uptime only creeps up with more crit. 33% is in no way a magic number. |
I also did not state that the warrior in question had 100% hit, nowhere close to that. I said for the sake of the argument that they had 95 hit rating. 95 hit rating is not the same as 100% hit. In addition, I did say that the numbers were rough, perhaps you mistook how "rough" I intended them to be.
If we were to use the numbers you provided, combined with some information from my own warrior:
My warrior has about 66% of his dps being generated by white damage. If you want to propose that 1% hit applies to only increasing your white damage, then 1% hit should increase total dps by 0.66%.
At 1000 dps, that's 6.66 dps.
I'd like to know the exact circumstances that you view 14 AP as being equal to 4-5 dps, there are a lot of factors that would go into this. I also stated that for the sake of simplicity, we would overlook the fact that AP factors into other dps components. If I didn't state this in my post, then forgive me because I meant to.
Regardless of these facts, why don't we increase the numbers then to something more in line with what some warriors have been able to put out as steady dps. 1500-1600 isn't unreasonable for a warrior with good gear in a relatively non threat-sensitive fight. At this point, 1% hit still amounts to 1% of their white damage increase. which is now closer to 11 dps increase, while AP remains at the flat amount of (taking your numbers) 4-5 dps. this would mean you need 28 AP to equal 16 hit rating. Granted that this is still a better trade-off gem-wise, go ahead and take the strength gems. What I was trying to point out in my post, which I realize now that I seem to have done ineffectively, was that while Crit and Hit scale over a % of your total dps, AP scales at a flat rate.
Again I want to point out that I'm not trying to say that you should unreasonably stack the "cheaper" alternative to dps increase, but rather that at certain levels, some stats are more valuable than others, and that certainly on a basic level of understanding, crit and hit are an apparently much easier way to increase dps than strength.
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Originally Posted by Voxx
Nowhere did I state that 33% crit chance guaranteed 100% flurry uptime, I merely stated that this is the number that is generally associated with the "optimum" uptime. The point at which added crit comes at such a low value for further flurry uptime that this added side-effect is overlooked.
I also did not state that the warrior in question had 100% hit, nowhere close to that. I said for the sake of the argument that they had 95 hit rating. 95 hit rating is not the same as 100% hit. In addition, I did say that the numbers were rough, perhaps you mistook how "rough" I intended them to be. If we were to use the numbers you provided, combined with some information from my own warrior: My warrior has about 66% of his dps being generated by white damage. If you want to propose that 1% hit applies to only increasing your white damage, then 1% hit should increase total dps by 0.66%. At 1000 dps, that's 6.66 dps. I'd like to know the exact circumstances that you view 14 AP as being equal to 4-5 dps, there are a lot of factors that would go into this. I also stated that for the sake of simplicity, we would overlook the fact that AP factors into other dps components. If I didn't state this in my post, then forgive me because I meant to. Regardless of these facts, why don't we increase the numbers then to something more in line with what some warriors have been able to put out as steady dps. 1500-1600 isn't unreasonable for a warrior with good gear in a relatively non threat-sensitive fight. At this point, 1% hit still amounts to 1% of their white damage increase. which is now closer to 11 dps increase, while AP remains at the flat amount of (taking your numbers) 4-5 dps. this would mean you need 28 AP to equal 16 hit rating. Granted that this is still a better trade-off gem-wise, go ahead and take the strength gems. What I was trying to point out in my post, which I realize now that I seem to have done ineffectively, was that while Crit and Hit scale over a % of your total dps, AP scales at a flat rate. Again I want to point out that I'm not trying to say that you should unreasonably stack the "cheaper" alternative to dps increase, but rather that at certain levels, some stats are more valuable than others, and that certainly on a basic level of understanding, crit and hit are an apparently much easier way to increase dps than strength. |
Quixotic - Character - World of Warcraft - WoWDigger
Granted I'm not quite yet there with the gear I want, I can still pull 1800 dps on relative "benchmark" fights of BC like Teron.
The Armory
Obviously when it comes down to two pieces of gear that are for the same slot, you would pick whichever was best based on which has more all around dps stats. What I'm saying is that when it comes to stats that you can pick and choose for, hit and crit come above strength for me. Again, while the +hit may come with the gear, the gear doesn't come immediately. For the time between point A and point B, the gems you choose have an impact on your immediate dps. So while you may not gem for hit in the end, do you gem for hit in the intermediate. And my point here is that yes, gem for hit and crit rather than stacking AP.
Disclaimer: Balance all three, don't "stack" any stat.
Disclaimer: Balance all three, don't "stack" any stat.
Just a quick question about arms warriors here. We have one in our raid and my previous experience lies more towards fury warriors. I'm arms in PVP now, but I've never done Arms in anything more than a 5 man. The question I guess is how much dps can an arms warrior manage to do in a raid setting if they don't have a shaman dropping WF for them? We only have one enhancement shaman and he's not always there. 1-2 elementals, but they generally go with caster groups or the tank group right now if the mts need more dodge (like for Gruul)
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Basically looking at Kaidenn here. What could I advise to help him up his damage on this? 370 dps over the instance looks low. I know partly that is due to having just Thunder and not Deep Thunder, and a lot to not having a shaman, but I know that I've been able to on my warrior get consistently higher dps than that, even without WF.
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Basically looking at Kaidenn here. What could I advise to help him up his damage on this? 370 dps over the instance looks low. I know partly that is due to having just Thunder and not Deep Thunder, and a lot to not having a shaman, but I know that I've been able to on my warrior get consistently higher dps than that, even without WF.
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Originally Posted by Kiranat
for each physical DPSer in your raid (hunters, warriors, rogues, enh shaman, whatever)
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and i don't know about bleeding effects (rend, deepwounds, feral dots, etc.)
I want to ask for some advice. I have read this thread since page one and I am having trouble figuring out DPS as a 17/44 Fury warrior. I see others do well into 1K DPS on any given fight and the most I have been able to pull off was 550.
I was a rogue pre BC and it was easy to attain and maintain top DPS but now I am relegated to the bottom of the top 10 list.
What am I doing wrong. For the life of me I cannot figure it out. Any and all suggestions will be taken.
is it my gear, weapons, or attack sequence?
I was a rogue pre BC and it was easy to attain and maintain top DPS but now I am relegated to the bottom of the top 10 list.
What am I doing wrong. For the life of me I cannot figure it out. Any and all suggestions will be taken.
is it my gear, weapons, or attack sequence?
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Originally Posted by Lopert
I want to ask for some advice. I have read this thread since page one and I am having trouble figuring out DPS as a 17/44 Fury warrior. I see others do well into 1K DPS on any given fight and the most I have been able to pull off was 550.
I was a rogue pre BC and it was easy to attain and maintain top DPS but now I am relegated to the bottom of the top 10 list. What am I doing wrong. For the life of me I cannot figure it out. Any and all suggestions will be taken. is it my gear, weapons, or attack sequence? |
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Originally Posted by Ashbash
any know any details on warrior talents in the enxt expansion or when we might see somthing?
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Anybody know what's up with Surefooted? My Rogues are telling me it gives much more than 10 hit rating.
Edited onPatch 2.1.3
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Originally Posted by Emeraude
Anybody know what's up with Surefooted? My Rogues are telling me it gives much more than 10 hit rating.
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Unless it's providing something other than the tooltip displays, or more (but not showing up). If so; I'm interested.
Last edited by Gokey : 09/18/07 at 4:22 PM.
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Originally Posted by Gokey
Switching my boots on and off only gives me 10 hit rating... unless of course you mean the 5% snare resist it also provides.
Unless of course it's providing something other than the tooltip displays, or more (but not showing up). If so; I'm interested. |
according to thottbot the aura it applies seems to be the correct one, 5% snare and 10 hit rating
I think it would be interesting if they added a low dmg, threat reducting, high rage, stackable instant attack as a top tier fury ability. Or maybe not an attack as that would not seem to make much sense to lower threat, but you get the picture.
Sorry for derailing the thread a little, but I couldn't find a better place to ask this in:
with the 2.2 haste nerf, will the 13% haste proc on the drakefist series still be better than the planar axe series, factoring in my orc axe skill adding +3% hit with the planar axe? I couldn't find any solid calculations anywhere.
with the 2.2 haste nerf, will the 13% haste proc on the drakefist series still be better than the planar axe series, factoring in my orc axe skill adding +3% hit with the planar axe? I couldn't find any solid calculations anywhere.
edit: Didn't realize what page I was quoting from
I've been having an arguement lately with the other officer in my guild about bringing a 2h MS blood-frenzy specced warrior to raids versus a well geared DW fury warrior.
A couple of things I always say are that,
1. MS DPS is far to reliant on windufry totems. One night we may not have one, and then we havea 400-500 dps ball and chain bringing down the raid. Plus WF seems only to add about 150 or so dps.
2. Blood frenzy adds about (I have not done the exact math, so this is just a guess) 30-40 DPS to each physical damage dealer. I personally would rather have one DW fury warrior in the raid doing 1100 PDS, then that.
Now, the reason im posting here is because I WANT to be proved wrong or right. Please help me out here so I know what is better for my raid groups.
A couple of things I always say are that,
1. MS DPS is far to reliant on windufry totems. One night we may not have one, and then we havea 400-500 dps ball and chain bringing down the raid. Plus WF seems only to add about 150 or so dps.
2. Blood frenzy adds about (I have not done the exact math, so this is just a guess) 30-40 DPS to each physical damage dealer. I personally would rather have one DW fury warrior in the raid doing 1100 PDS, then that.
Now, the reason im posting here is because I WANT to be proved wrong or right. Please help me out here so I know what is better for my raid groups.
There is no proof. You take 4% of your physical dps and compare it against the difference in DPS of an 33/28 warrior versus a 17/44 warrior. The variances in gear, skill, raid composition, and particular encounter determine the outcome. My guild does not use a blood frenzy warrior. A lot of guilds do. There are 33/28 warriors out there that out dps me. There are 33/28 warriors out there that I would beat by more than the 4% buff difference. Log a kill in WWS and get a feel for how much the blood frenzy buff could of added.
Edited onPatch 2.1.3
There's no way around the argument that 33/28 is WF reliant, any 2-h build will be that way, however 400-500 DPS is just silly. Granted my gear is quite a bit above-average I can still do 950-1000 without WF.
If you want to figure out how having a Blood Frenzy warrior would affect your raid do this - run damage meters/recap/whatever and collect the damage for each physical DPSer in your raid (hunters, warriors, rogues, enh shaman, whatever) and use this formula
(Damage * 0.04)
to find out what their damage added by Blood Frenzy would have been. The way I define the reason for me spec is that the amount of damage I add is higher than the amount of damage I "lose" by not being DWFury.
If you're currently running as Blood Frenzy - To figure out the damage gained by the raid with Blood Frenzy use (Damage - (Damage/1,04)) for each physical DPSer. For a strict comparison of BF vs Fury just add the damage gained by the raid into your own to get your "effective" DPS.
If you want to figure out how having a Blood Frenzy warrior would affect your raid do this - run damage meters/recap/whatever and collect the damage for each physical DPSer in your raid (hunters, warriors, rogues, enh shaman, whatever) and use this formula
(Damage * 0.04)
to find out what their damage added by Blood Frenzy would have been. The way I define the reason for me spec is that the amount of damage I add is higher than the amount of damage I "lose" by not being DWFury.
If you're currently running as Blood Frenzy - To figure out the damage gained by the raid with Blood Frenzy use (Damage - (Damage/1,04)) for each physical DPSer. For a strict comparison of BF vs Fury just add the damage gained by the raid into your own to get your "effective" DPS.
Last edited by Kiranat : 09/19/07 at 5:36 PM.
I do very fine DPS with 33/28 and just WF/Str. Coupled with Blood Frenzy it's definitly worth it.
Any other comments on Slam? Is it still worth it if you stack haste? I've played with it and the 2 flaws I saw with slam were
A. Timing - If one misses the correct timing they can delay the next auto swing longer than desired, or overlap and lose an auto swing all together. Losing the Auto swing was a huge loss from missing rage and no damage.
B. Camp - Since slam is a cast one has to be standing still. When I played it i found myself stuck watching my swing timer and not enjoying the fight.
I'm not sure what i would do with those other 2 points in fury as they are needed to get to Flurry. Ive studied Serida's reports and it seems slam is not required for 2h dps.
A. Timing - If one misses the correct timing they can delay the next auto swing longer than desired, or overlap and lose an auto swing all together. Losing the Auto swing was a huge loss from missing rage and no damage.
B. Camp - Since slam is a cast one has to be standing still. When I played it i found myself stuck watching my swing timer and not enjoying the fight.
I'm not sure what i would do with those other 2 points in fury as they are needed to get to Flurry. Ive studied Serida's reports and it seems slam is not required for 2h dps.
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Originally Posted by Kiranat
If you want to figure out how having a Blood Frenzy warrior would affect your raid do this - run damage meters/recap/whatever and collect the damage for each physical DPSer in your raid (hunters, warriors, rogues, enh shaman, whatever) and use this formula
((Damage*1.04)*0.04) to find out what their damage added by Blood Frenzy would have been. The way I define the reason for me spec is that the amount of damage I add is higher than the amount of damage I "lose" by not being DWFury. If you're currently running as Blood Frenzy - To figure out the damage gained by the raid with Blood Frenzy use ((Damage/1.04)*0.04) for each physical DPSer. For a strict comparison of BF vs Fury just add the damage gained by the raid into your own to get your "effective" DPS. |
The first equation should be ( ( damage.physical * 1.04 ) - damage.physical ), which can be simplified to ( damage.physical * 0.04 ).
The second equation should be ( damage.physical - ( damage.physical / 1.04 ) ).
Note that it's not as simple as taking the total damage done by physical DPS classes and applying the formula. Abilities such as rogue poisons, serpent sting, and shocks are not affected by BF and need to be removed from the total before calculating.
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Originally Posted by smor
Any other comments on Slam? Is it still worth it if you stack haste? I've played with it and the 2 flaws I saw with slam were
A. Timing - If one misses the correct timing they can delay the next auto swing longer than desired, or overlap and lose an auto swing all together. Losing the Auto swing was a huge loss from missing rage and no damage. B. Camp - Since slam is a cast one has to be standing still. When I played it i found myself stuck watching my swing timer and not enjoying the fight. |
B. If you don't enjoy playing as the spec, it can still be viable. This doesn't mean that you have to spec that way.
Time for me to re-hijack my thread back... and pose a new question:
What's your view on hit rating beyond 95?
I've seen people say that it shouldn't be ignored, but not stacked, I've seen people say it should be stacked like any other stat, and I've seen people say it should be ignored after 95.
The majority of the dps warriors that I respect as knowledgeable about the class suggest that after 95 hit rating, more +hit is a relatively weak stat when compared to +crit and +str. I want to know how valid people think this argument is. I personally believe that it shouldn't be ignored, and that it shouldn't be "stacked" per se, but focused on more than most suggest.
The major argument against stacking it is that +hit is for generating rage, and generating rage alone. Therefore after 95 hit rating (the point at which all special abilities will hit) all the extra hit rating is doing is generating more rage for you to use. This is negligible therefore since a fury warrior running with windfury and other raid buffs is rarely if ever starved for rage. What I don't agree with here is that +hit is only a means to gain rage. Every attack that lands instead of misses, is a source of damage as well as rage, not just rage. Granted the white attack could be a glancing blow and therefore have reduced damage and be incapable of a crit, it's still added damage.
If we're to compare hit with the other two important stats, crit and strength, then it's a little harder to see which comes out on top in terms of priority. Especially with the addition of gems to the game.
Looking at it from a whole % value where the warrior's stats are balanced, 16 hit rating is roughly equivalent to 1% more dps. As is 22 crit rating, and a variable amount of attack power/strength (depending how much attack power/strength the warrior has). Just looking at it this way, it's evident that strength/attack power becomes a weaker and weaker stat when the warrior has more of it. In order to gain 1% of the warrior's dps at 100 dps, only 7 strength is needed (14 attack power = 1 dps). This is much cheaper than getting 22 crit rating or 16 hit rating. However, at a point where the warrior has 1000 dps, 10 dps is needed to increase the total dps by 1%. Now we need 140 attack power to gain the same overall percentage increase as we did previously, so this alternative is no longer cheaper than 22 crit rating or 16 hit rating. The reason 22 crit rating and 16 hit rating are valued higher than an equivalent dps increase from attack power in my view, is that they are a static % increase in dps regardless of how much of each stat the warrior currently has.
Now obviously there are caps to how much +hit or +crit you can have and still be useful. In general however, at a point where the warrior is running with 2000 attack power, an increase in dps through crit/hit is much cheaper and easier to get than an equivalent increase in attack power. Another point I should mention before I'm flamed against it, is that there is also a balance that needs to be maintained in the "holy trinity" of warrior stats. The more strength you have, the less valuable it is compared to crit/hit, the more crit you have, the less valuable in comparison to the other two stats it is... and so forth.
Unfortunately, most other warriors I have seen discussing this point leave out +hit in the "holy trinity" so it becomes a holy duality. They claim that the extra rage gained from having that +hit is threat inefficient because it forces the warrior to use heroic strike/cleave more to dump rage. What I want to know is that, given the surplus of rage, why warriors think they need to dump all that rage inefficiently, why can't we accept the added white damage from +hit as simply more dps, and not use the surplus rage inefficiently.
Given these arguments, I want to take another look at the relative cost of a % increase in dps from the three different sources. Assuming the warrior is doing 1000 dps (respectable, but not insane), we would need 22 crit rating (1% crit), 16 hit rating (1% hit) or 70 strength (10 dps) in order to have the same impact on our overall dps. Granted that these numbers are rough, and that there are other intricacies that affect the usefulness of each stat, such as Impale and Flurry inflating the value of crit and Bloodthirst inflating the value of strength. However, the modification they make to this argument is small enough to be overlooked for the time being. When we look at these values, 70 strength is almost 9 full gems of +8 strength. 22 crit rating is almost 3 gems of +8 crit rating, while 16 hit rating is onl 2 gems of +8 hit rating. Judging the stats from this point of view, +hit is the cheapest way to get more dps (within a reasonable balance of stats). Then +crit, then +strength.
To make comparisons fairer, let's assume the warrior has the minimum stats that have been generally realized by the warrior community as "needed" to do effective dps. 33% crit to ensure an optimum Flurry uptime, and 9% hit to ensure that no special attacks miss. Given these values, added crit and added hit have no "major" impact on the warrior's dps, that is to say that added amounts of each stat have no value beyond an increase in general damge done. Beyond 33% crit, crit is useful because it doubles the damage of our white attacks, and multiplies the damage of our special attacks by a factor of 2.1 (from Impale). The added amount of damage from Impale, as well as the fact that added crit will affect both white and yellow damage, crit is a very valuable stat. Adding hit instead, our special attacks already are guaranteed to land, we have not reached the crit cap and therefore they do not subsequently increase our "useful" crit chance, all they do is increase the chances of our white attacks landing. This is a flat 1% increase in white damage. Now compare this all to strength, an added amount of 70 strength is needed to compare to 1% values of the other two stats, we can deflate this value a little by saying that more strength = more attack power = harder Bloodthirst hits, which form a substantial amount of our dps. Even so, we can safely say that this would not inflate the value of strength so much as to make 16 strength an equivalent dps increase as 16 hit rating or 16 crit rating (here I'm inflating the value of crit due to it's effect via Impale).
Judging by these comparisons, I would say that after 95 hit rating, (roughly) 33% crit and 1000 steady dps have been achieved, the priority of increasing stats should be +crit then +hit, then +str.
I'll stress this one last time however: I firmly believe that no stat listed should be taken into extremes that would put it out of balance with the other two.
Tell me what you think of this prioritization, discounting the new stat from BT (Haste).
What's your view on hit rating beyond 95?
I've seen people say that it shouldn't be ignored, but not stacked, I've seen people say it should be stacked like any other stat, and I've seen people say it should be ignored after 95.
The majority of the dps warriors that I respect as knowledgeable about the class suggest that after 95 hit rating, more +hit is a relatively weak stat when compared to +crit and +str. I want to know how valid people think this argument is. I personally believe that it shouldn't be ignored, and that it shouldn't be "stacked" per se, but focused on more than most suggest.
The major argument against stacking it is that +hit is for generating rage, and generating rage alone. Therefore after 95 hit rating (the point at which all special abilities will hit) all the extra hit rating is doing is generating more rage for you to use. This is negligible therefore since a fury warrior running with windfury and other raid buffs is rarely if ever starved for rage. What I don't agree with here is that +hit is only a means to gain rage. Every attack that lands instead of misses, is a source of damage as well as rage, not just rage. Granted the white attack could be a glancing blow and therefore have reduced damage and be incapable of a crit, it's still added damage.
If we're to compare hit with the other two important stats, crit and strength, then it's a little harder to see which comes out on top in terms of priority. Especially with the addition of gems to the game.
Looking at it from a whole % value where the warrior's stats are balanced, 16 hit rating is roughly equivalent to 1% more dps. As is 22 crit rating, and a variable amount of attack power/strength (depending how much attack power/strength the warrior has). Just looking at it this way, it's evident that strength/attack power becomes a weaker and weaker stat when the warrior has more of it. In order to gain 1% of the warrior's dps at 100 dps, only 7 strength is needed (14 attack power = 1 dps). This is much cheaper than getting 22 crit rating or 16 hit rating. However, at a point where the warrior has 1000 dps, 10 dps is needed to increase the total dps by 1%. Now we need 140 attack power to gain the same overall percentage increase as we did previously, so this alternative is no longer cheaper than 22 crit rating or 16 hit rating. The reason 22 crit rating and 16 hit rating are valued higher than an equivalent dps increase from attack power in my view, is that they are a static % increase in dps regardless of how much of each stat the warrior currently has.
Now obviously there are caps to how much +hit or +crit you can have and still be useful. In general however, at a point where the warrior is running with 2000 attack power, an increase in dps through crit/hit is much cheaper and easier to get than an equivalent increase in attack power. Another point I should mention before I'm flamed against it, is that there is also a balance that needs to be maintained in the "holy trinity" of warrior stats. The more strength you have, the less valuable it is compared to crit/hit, the more crit you have, the less valuable in comparison to the other two stats it is... and so forth.
Unfortunately, most other warriors I have seen discussing this point leave out +hit in the "holy trinity" so it becomes a holy duality. They claim that the extra rage gained from having that +hit is threat inefficient because it forces the warrior to use heroic strike/cleave more to dump rage. What I want to know is that, given the surplus of rage, why warriors think they need to dump all that rage inefficiently, why can't we accept the added white damage from +hit as simply more dps, and not use the surplus rage inefficiently.
Given these arguments, I want to take another look at the relative cost of a % increase in dps from the three different sources. Assuming the warrior is doing 1000 dps (respectable, but not insane), we would need 22 crit rating (1% crit), 16 hit rating (1% hit) or 70 strength (10 dps) in order to have the same impact on our overall dps. Granted that these numbers are rough, and that there are other intricacies that affect the usefulness of each stat, such as Impale and Flurry inflating the value of crit and Bloodthirst inflating the value of strength. However, the modification they make to this argument is small enough to be overlooked for the time being. When we look at these values, 70 strength is almost 9 full gems of +8 strength. 22 crit rating is almost 3 gems of +8 crit rating, while 16 hit rating is onl 2 gems of +8 hit rating. Judging the stats from this point of view, +hit is the cheapest way to get more dps (within a reasonable balance of stats). Then +crit, then +strength.
To make comparisons fairer, let's assume the warrior has the minimum stats that have been generally realized by the warrior community as "needed" to do effective dps. 33% crit to ensure an optimum Flurry uptime, and 9% hit to ensure that no special attacks miss. Given these values, added crit and added hit have no "major" impact on the warrior's dps, that is to say that added amounts of each stat have no value beyond an increase in general damge done. Beyond 33% crit, crit is useful because it doubles the damage of our white attacks, and multiplies the damage of our special attacks by a factor of 2.1 (from Impale). The added amount of damage from Impale, as well as the fact that added crit will affect both white and yellow damage, crit is a very valuable stat. Adding hit instead, our special attacks already are guaranteed to land, we have not reached the crit cap and therefore they do not subsequently increase our "useful" crit chance, all they do is increase the chances of our white attacks landing. This is a flat 1% increase in white damage. Now compare this all to strength, an added amount of 70 strength is needed to compare to 1% values of the other two stats, we can deflate this value a little by saying that more strength = more attack power = harder Bloodthirst hits, which form a substantial amount of our dps. Even so, we can safely say that this would not inflate the value of strength so much as to make 16 strength an equivalent dps increase as 16 hit rating or 16 crit rating (here I'm inflating the value of crit due to it's effect via Impale).
Judging by these comparisons, I would say that after 95 hit rating, (roughly) 33% crit and 1000 steady dps have been achieved, the priority of increasing stats should be +crit then +hit, then +str.
I'll stress this one last time however: I firmly believe that no stat listed should be taken into extremes that would put it out of balance with the other two.
Tell me what you think of this prioritization, discounting the new stat from BT (Haste).
The most convincing argument I've seen in favor of the 33/28 for PvE concerns threat. Even though 17/44 warriors can pull some serious damage, there aren't a ton of encounters without a threat cap. If you can do enough damage to threat cap yourself with 33/28 instead of full fury, you may as well provide the Blood Frenzy debuff to your raid members who have more threat control (rogues, hunters.)
Edited onPatch 2.1.3
"The majority of the dps warriors that I respect as knowledgeable about the class suggest that after 95 hit rating, more +hit is a relatively weak stat when compared to +crit and +str. I want to know how valid people think this argument is. I personally believe that it shouldn't be ignored, and that it shouldn't be "stacked" per se, but focused on more than most suggest."
A large portion of the "don't focus on hit" comes from the fact that once you hit T5 level gear, being above the 95 +hit rating is a given. If I had 0 +hit gems, I would be at 165 hit rating without having full T5 gear. You will passively achieve 200 hit rating without gearing for it. More stats is always more stats so you move from Bladespire warbands to Bracers of Eradication. That's a 17 hit upgrade. I don't think anyone is arguing that you should take an item with 5 more strength at the expense of 20 hit, merely that, 1 for 1, both strength and crit which increase all damage dealt are superior to hit which increases only white damage after 95. When you stack massive haste buffs, hit becomes more valuable. If you had a fight where white damage far and away overpowers your yellow damage, you would stack hit. In general, though, as your rage generation increases, your white damage component decreases due to the addition of HSs which, again, do not benefit from additional +hit. Additional hit levels out your rage generation and is generally helpful. It is not worth gemming for or specifically gearing towards.
"Granted the white attack could be a glancing blow and therefore have reduced damage and be incapable of a crit, it's still added damage."
The way this is worded sounds like you're not using a single roll attack table. Glances and crits are generally mutually exclusive.
"Looking at it from a whole % value where the warrior's stats are balanced, 16 hit rating is roughly equivalent to 1% more dps. As is 22 crit rating, and a variable amount of attack power/strength (depending how much attack power/strength the warrior has). Just looking at it this way, it's evident that strength/attack power becomes a weaker and weaker stat when the warrior has more of it. In order to gain 1% of the warrior's dps at 100 dps, only 7 strength is needed (14 attack power = 1 dps). This is much cheaper than getting 22 crit rating or 16 hit rating. However, at a point where the warrior has 1000 dps, 10 dps is needed to increase the total dps by 1%. Now we need 140 attack power to gain the same overall percentage increase as we did previously, so this alternative is no longer cheaper than 22 crit rating or 16 hit rating. The reason 22 crit rating and 16 hit rating are valued higher than an equivalent dps increase from attack power in my view, is that they are a static % increase in dps regardless of how much of each stat the warrior currently has. "
This paragraph is flat wrong. At 100% hit, a warrior gains 162.5% of his ap bonus for white DPS with additional returns due to flurry, special moves, and crits. 14 ap is not a 1 DPS increase. General predictions put it around 4-5 dps based on a .35 dps per AP return. 1% hit leads to an increase of white damage portion of your attack. You would need a WWS report to even guesstimate what kind of increase that is. 1% crit also increases flurry uptime, stacks with impale, and generates more rage from white hits. I did a brief test of AP versus Crit to see what was more beneficial to stack a couple pages back and the crossover point (crit scaling and ap being a flat return) was somewhere around 4500 sustained AP.
33% crit has nothing to do with perma flurry. There is no permaflurry. Your flurry uptime asymptotically increases 100% as your crit rate approaches 100%. Your flurry up time rises dramatically from 0% crit to 10% crit. It rises less rapidly form 10% to 20%. It rises yet more slowly from 20% to 30%. Raid buffed up in the upper 30s or low 40s, your flurry uptime only creeps up with more crit. 33% is in no way a magic number.
My personal set would be 200 hit rating basically entirely from base gear stats with 30% zerker crit and as much AP as I can jam onto that gear. If my gear adds up to 190 rating, so be it. If I'm at 240 rating, that doesn't hurt.
A large portion of the "don't focus on hit" comes from the fact that once you hit T5 level gear, being above the 95 +hit rating is a given. If I had 0 +hit gems, I would be at 165 hit rating without having full T5 gear. You will passively achieve 200 hit rating without gearing for it. More stats is always more stats so you move from Bladespire warbands to Bracers of Eradication. That's a 17 hit upgrade. I don't think anyone is arguing that you should take an item with 5 more strength at the expense of 20 hit, merely that, 1 for 1, both strength and crit which increase all damage dealt are superior to hit which increases only white damage after 95. When you stack massive haste buffs, hit becomes more valuable. If you had a fight where white damage far and away overpowers your yellow damage, you would stack hit. In general, though, as your rage generation increases, your white damage component decreases due to the addition of HSs which, again, do not benefit from additional +hit. Additional hit levels out your rage generation and is generally helpful. It is not worth gemming for or specifically gearing towards.
"Granted the white attack could be a glancing blow and therefore have reduced damage and be incapable of a crit, it's still added damage."
The way this is worded sounds like you're not using a single roll attack table. Glances and crits are generally mutually exclusive.
"Looking at it from a whole % value where the warrior's stats are balanced, 16 hit rating is roughly equivalent to 1% more dps. As is 22 crit rating, and a variable amount of attack power/strength (depending how much attack power/strength the warrior has). Just looking at it this way, it's evident that strength/attack power becomes a weaker and weaker stat when the warrior has more of it. In order to gain 1% of the warrior's dps at 100 dps, only 7 strength is needed (14 attack power = 1 dps). This is much cheaper than getting 22 crit rating or 16 hit rating. However, at a point where the warrior has 1000 dps, 10 dps is needed to increase the total dps by 1%. Now we need 140 attack power to gain the same overall percentage increase as we did previously, so this alternative is no longer cheaper than 22 crit rating or 16 hit rating. The reason 22 crit rating and 16 hit rating are valued higher than an equivalent dps increase from attack power in my view, is that they are a static % increase in dps regardless of how much of each stat the warrior currently has. "
This paragraph is flat wrong. At 100% hit, a warrior gains 162.5% of his ap bonus for white DPS with additional returns due to flurry, special moves, and crits. 14 ap is not a 1 DPS increase. General predictions put it around 4-5 dps based on a .35 dps per AP return. 1% hit leads to an increase of white damage portion of your attack. You would need a WWS report to even guesstimate what kind of increase that is. 1% crit also increases flurry uptime, stacks with impale, and generates more rage from white hits. I did a brief test of AP versus Crit to see what was more beneficial to stack a couple pages back and the crossover point (crit scaling and ap being a flat return) was somewhere around 4500 sustained AP.
33% crit has nothing to do with perma flurry. There is no permaflurry. Your flurry uptime asymptotically increases 100% as your crit rate approaches 100%. Your flurry up time rises dramatically from 0% crit to 10% crit. It rises less rapidly form 10% to 20%. It rises yet more slowly from 20% to 30%. Raid buffed up in the upper 30s or low 40s, your flurry uptime only creeps up with more crit. 33% is in no way a magic number.
My personal set would be 200 hit rating basically entirely from base gear stats with 30% zerker crit and as much AP as I can jam onto that gear. If my gear adds up to 190 rating, so be it. If I'm at 240 rating, that doesn't hurt.
Last edited by Grymm : 09/19/07 at 4:26 PM.
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Originally Posted by Dasein
I believe your math is off. We want to calculate the difference between damage with BF and damage without BF.
The first equation should be ( ( damage.physical * 1.04 ) - damage.physical ), which can be simplified to ( damage.physical * 0.04 ). The second equation should be ( damage.physical - ( damage.physical / 1.04 ) ). Note that it's not as simple as taking the total damage done by physical DPS classes and applying the formula. Abilities such as rogue poisons, serpent sting, and shocks are not affected by BF and need to be removed from the total before calculating. |
And yes, it's not that simple, however from all the logs and WWS I've looked through poison damage and (lol) serpent sting and the like produce almost negligable damage, 1-2% of the total damage being added with a sweeping formula. Obviously if you want an exact number it would be best to dig through recap or WWS and manually add everything up, but for the 15-20 DPS being mistakenly added if even that I'm not overly concerned. That said, Scorpid poison can add up to a pretty large amount so that's definitely worth taking out.
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Originally Posted by Grymm
"Looking at it from a whole % value where the warrior's stats are balanced, 16 hit rating is roughly equivalent to 1% more dps. As is 22 crit rating, and a variable amount of attack power/strength (depending how much attack power/strength the warrior has). Just looking at it this way, it's evident that strength/attack power becomes a weaker and weaker stat when the warrior has more of it. In order to gain 1% of the warrior's dps at 100 dps, only 7 strength is needed (14 attack power = 1 dps). This is much cheaper than getting 22 crit rating or 16 hit rating. However, at a point where the warrior has 1000 dps, 10 dps is needed to increase the total dps by 1%. Now we need 140 attack power to gain the same overall percentage increase as we did previously, so this alternative is no longer cheaper than 22 crit rating or 16 hit rating. The reason 22 crit rating and 16 hit rating are valued higher than an equivalent dps increase from attack power in my view, is that they are a static % increase in dps regardless of how much of each stat the warrior currently has. "
This paragraph is flat wrong. At 100% hit, a warrior gains 162.5% of his ap bonus for white DPS with additional returns due to flurry, special moves, and crits. 14 ap is not a 1 DPS increase. General predictions put it around 4-5 dps based on a .35 dps per AP return. 1% hit leads to an increase of white damage portion of your attack. You would need a WWS report to even guesstimate what kind of increase that is. 1% crit also increases flurry uptime, stacks with impale, and generates more rage from white hits. I did a brief test of AP versus Crit to see what was more beneficial to stack a couple pages back and the crossover point (crit scaling and ap being a flat return) was somewhere around 4500 sustained AP. 33% crit has nothing to do with perma flurry. There is no permaflurry. Your flurry uptime asymptotically increases 100% as your crit rate approaches 100%. Your flurry up time rises dramatically from 0% crit to 10% crit. It rises less rapidly form 10% to 20%. It rises yet more slowly from 20% to 30%. Raid buffed up in the upper 30s or low 40s, your flurry uptime only creeps up with more crit. 33% is in no way a magic number. |
I also did not state that the warrior in question had 100% hit, nowhere close to that. I said for the sake of the argument that they had 95 hit rating. 95 hit rating is not the same as 100% hit. In addition, I did say that the numbers were rough, perhaps you mistook how "rough" I intended them to be.
If we were to use the numbers you provided, combined with some information from my own warrior:
My warrior has about 66% of his dps being generated by white damage. If you want to propose that 1% hit applies to only increasing your white damage, then 1% hit should increase total dps by 0.66%.
At 1000 dps, that's 6.66 dps.
I'd like to know the exact circumstances that you view 14 AP as being equal to 4-5 dps, there are a lot of factors that would go into this. I also stated that for the sake of simplicity, we would overlook the fact that AP factors into other dps components. If I didn't state this in my post, then forgive me because I meant to.
Regardless of these facts, why don't we increase the numbers then to something more in line with what some warriors have been able to put out as steady dps. 1500-1600 isn't unreasonable for a warrior with good gear in a relatively non threat-sensitive fight. At this point, 1% hit still amounts to 1% of their white damage increase. which is now closer to 11 dps increase, while AP remains at the flat amount of (taking your numbers) 4-5 dps. this would mean you need 28 AP to equal 16 hit rating. Granted that this is still a better trade-off gem-wise, go ahead and take the strength gems. What I was trying to point out in my post, which I realize now that I seem to have done ineffectively, was that while Crit and Hit scale over a % of your total dps, AP scales at a flat rate.
Again I want to point out that I'm not trying to say that you should unreasonably stack the "cheaper" alternative to dps increase, but rather that at certain levels, some stats are more valuable than others, and that certainly on a basic level of understanding, crit and hit are an apparently much easier way to increase dps than strength.
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Originally Posted by Voxx
Nowhere did I state that 33% crit chance guaranteed 100% flurry uptime, I merely stated that this is the number that is generally associated with the "optimum" uptime. The point at which added crit comes at such a low value for further flurry uptime that this added side-effect is overlooked.
I also did not state that the warrior in question had 100% hit, nowhere close to that. I said for the sake of the argument that they had 95 hit rating. 95 hit rating is not the same as 100% hit. In addition, I did say that the numbers were rough, perhaps you mistook how "rough" I intended them to be. If we were to use the numbers you provided, combined with some information from my own warrior: My warrior has about 66% of his dps being generated by white damage. If you want to propose that 1% hit applies to only increasing your white damage, then 1% hit should increase total dps by 0.66%. At 1000 dps, that's 6.66 dps. I'd like to know the exact circumstances that you view 14 AP as being equal to 4-5 dps, there are a lot of factors that would go into this. I also stated that for the sake of simplicity, we would overlook the fact that AP factors into other dps components. If I didn't state this in my post, then forgive me because I meant to. Regardless of these facts, why don't we increase the numbers then to something more in line with what some warriors have been able to put out as steady dps. 1500-1600 isn't unreasonable for a warrior with good gear in a relatively non threat-sensitive fight. At this point, 1% hit still amounts to 1% of their white damage increase. which is now closer to 11 dps increase, while AP remains at the flat amount of (taking your numbers) 4-5 dps. this would mean you need 28 AP to equal 16 hit rating. Granted that this is still a better trade-off gem-wise, go ahead and take the strength gems. What I was trying to point out in my post, which I realize now that I seem to have done ineffectively, was that while Crit and Hit scale over a % of your total dps, AP scales at a flat rate. Again I want to point out that I'm not trying to say that you should unreasonably stack the "cheaper" alternative to dps increase, but rather that at certain levels, some stats are more valuable than others, and that certainly on a basic level of understanding, crit and hit are an apparently much easier way to increase dps than strength. |
Quixotic - Character - World of Warcraft - WoWDigger
Granted I'm not quite yet there with the gear I want, I can still pull 1800 dps on relative "benchmark" fights of BC like Teron.
The Armory
Obviously when it comes down to two pieces of gear that are for the same slot, you would pick whichever was best based on which has more all around dps stats. What I'm saying is that when it comes to stats that you can pick and choose for, hit and crit come above strength for me. Again, while the +hit may come with the gear, the gear doesn't come immediately. For the time between point A and point B, the gems you choose have an impact on your immediate dps. So while you may not gem for hit in the end, do you gem for hit in the intermediate. And my point here is that yes, gem for hit and crit rather than stacking AP.
Disclaimer: Balance all three, don't "stack" any stat.
Disclaimer: Balance all three, don't "stack" any stat.
Just a quick question about arms warriors here. We have one in our raid and my previous experience lies more towards fury warriors. I'm arms in PVP now, but I've never done Arms in anything more than a 5 man. The question I guess is how much dps can an arms warrior manage to do in a raid setting if they don't have a shaman dropping WF for them? We only have one enhancement shaman and he's not always there. 1-2 elementals, but they generally go with caster groups or the tank group right now if the mts need more dodge (like for Gruul)
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Basically looking at Kaidenn here. What could I advise to help him up his damage on this? 370 dps over the instance looks low. I know partly that is due to having just Thunder and not Deep Thunder, and a lot to not having a shaman, but I know that I've been able to on my warrior get consistently higher dps than that, even without WF.
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Basically looking at Kaidenn here. What could I advise to help him up his damage on this? 370 dps over the instance looks low. I know partly that is due to having just Thunder and not Deep Thunder, and a lot to not having a shaman, but I know that I've been able to on my warrior get consistently higher dps than that, even without WF.
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Originally Posted by Kiranat
for each physical DPSer in your raid (hunters, warriors, rogues, enh shaman, whatever)
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and i don't know about bleeding effects (rend, deepwounds, feral dots, etc.)
I want to ask for some advice. I have read this thread since page one and I am having trouble figuring out DPS as a 17/44 Fury warrior. I see others do well into 1K DPS on any given fight and the most I have been able to pull off was 550.
I was a rogue pre BC and it was easy to attain and maintain top DPS but now I am relegated to the bottom of the top 10 list.
What am I doing wrong. For the life of me I cannot figure it out. Any and all suggestions will be taken.
is it my gear, weapons, or attack sequence?
I was a rogue pre BC and it was easy to attain and maintain top DPS but now I am relegated to the bottom of the top 10 list.
What am I doing wrong. For the life of me I cannot figure it out. Any and all suggestions will be taken.
is it my gear, weapons, or attack sequence?
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Originally Posted by Lopert
I want to ask for some advice. I have read this thread since page one and I am having trouble figuring out DPS as a 17/44 Fury warrior. I see others do well into 1K DPS on any given fight and the most I have been able to pull off was 550.
I was a rogue pre BC and it was easy to attain and maintain top DPS but now I am relegated to the bottom of the top 10 list. What am I doing wrong. For the life of me I cannot figure it out. Any and all suggestions will be taken. is it my gear, weapons, or attack sequence? |
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Originally Posted by Muarf
Afaik, it only applies to MELEE and Physical dmg, so only hunter's pet physical dmg (not scorpid poison) and no rogue poisons and shaman shocks
and i don't know about bleeding effects (rend, deepwounds, feral dots, etc.) |
Its all physical types of damage done, not just melee.
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Originally Posted by Trins
Its all physical types of damage done, not just melee.
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Originally Posted by Wowhead
Blood Frenzy Rank 2
Your Rend and Deep Wounds abilities also increase all physical damage caused to that target by 4%. |
All hunters' shots except Arcane Shots and stings are affected by bloodfrenzy then.
(and bleeding effects?)
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Originally Posted by Muarf
You're right, I don't know why I thought it was melee only, sorry.
(link) All hunters' shots except Arcane Shots and stings are affected by bloodfrenzy then. (and bleeding effects?) |
Slight derail (mabye)- It's widely known that for fury warriors strength > crit rating > hit (point for point). But does anybody know how these stats stand for arms warriors?
Sure hit is somewhat pointless past 5% but what about crit & strength? Should one try to balance them both or is one clearly better than the other?
Sure hit is somewhat pointless past 5% but what about crit & strength? Should one try to balance them both or is one clearly better than the other?
Well if your axe spec crit comes easy, I used to raid with 45% crit raid buffed and i didn't socket any gems for crit.
But arms is probably the same as fury in that you need to keep flurry going as much as possible (Ive not raided as arms for a while now tho so could'nt check)
But arms is probably the same as fury in that you need to keep flurry going as much as possible (Ive not raided as arms for a while now tho so could'nt check)
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Originally Posted by Colan
Slight derail (mabye)- It's widely known that for fury warriors strength > crit rating > hit (point for point). But does anybody know how these stats stand for arms warriors?
Sure hit is somewhat pointless past 5% but what about crit & strength? Should one try to balance them both or is one clearly better than the other? |
I'd like to note that "point for point" strength > crit > hit is a pretty rough statement to make. As well as the fact that hit past 5% is not useless for arms, hit past roughly 8.6% is "useless."
Is there a discussion about +armor pen vs +haste anywhere? Im trying to decide between [Pillager's Gauntlets] and [Onslaught Gauntlets]. Also wondering wether armor pen would be better to stack post haste nerf.
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Originally Posted by madrussian
Is there a discussion about +armor pen vs +haste anywhere? Im trying to decide between [Pillager's Gauntlets] and [Onslaught Gauntlets]. Also wondering wether armor pen would be better to stack post haste nerf.
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I think you are the first warrior i've ever seen with EITHER warglaive....let alone both.
How did the rogues like you taking them?
How did the rogues like you taking them?
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Originally Posted by Calgar
I think you are the first warrior i've ever seen with EITHER warglaive....let alone both.
How did the rogues like you taking them? |
| Pfft, if he's active enough to earn them his Rogues can cry a river for all I care. |
That said, i was asking because, like him, I have top DKP in my guild mostly due to the fact that i have no competition on all the gear i get, and only cross-class items like rings, necks and weapons cost me big. I was interested to see their reaction, as i've caught some flak for taking a ring of lethality, and my talon of al'ar. The warglaives would be about 50 times as drama prone i'd imagine.
There's probably a reason why there's about 50 times as many rogues with the warglaives compared to warriors.
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Originally Posted by Calgar
That sounds a whole lot like "Screw the guild, I want them, so I will take them."
That said, i was asking because, like him, I have top DKP in my guild mostly due to the fact that i have no competition on all the gear i get, and only cross-class items like rings, necks and weapons cost me big. I was interested to see their reaction, as i've caught some flak for taking a ring of lethality, and my talon of al'ar. The warglaives would be about 50 times as drama prone i'd imagine. There's probably a reason why there's about 50 times as many rogues with the warglaives compared to warriors. |
I'm definitely a contender for the 1st or 2nd pair for Warglaives, provided we ever get to Illidan. ^^ But then I have almost 100% raid attendance, why would I pass for somebody with much lower raid attendance? Or why would somebody have priority over me because of their class? Heh.
Like I said, guild to guild basis.
Well its also a issue of putting them to use.. I mean sure a warrior would do sick dps with them on a non dps sensitive encounter. But on all others it would be a wasted weapon really. A warrior cannot handle them due to no aggro wipe.
As much as I would love to have them,If your guild is preparing for sunwell and taking things seriusly they go first to all active rogues then to dps warriors,sad but true we cant use their real potential atm.
Edited onPatch 2.1.3
"Nowhere did I state that 33% crit chance guaranteed 100% flurry uptime, I merely stated that this is the number that is generally associated with the "optimum" uptime. The point at which added crit comes at such a low value for further flurry uptime that this added side-effect is overlooked."
The core of my point is that the flurry uptime equation is a smooth curve. There is no inflection or point beyond which you can definitely say you are getting less. Weapon speed can influence flurry uptime by a few percent. I have heard 25% crit, 28% crit, 30% crit, and 33% crit as cited goals. How you would determine your optimum crit would be 100% dependend on the gear you are using, the raid buffs you expect, and what kind of calculation you make on your rotation to say at some point the itemization cost of crit dips below strength. And, actually, strength generally outweighs crit until 4k ap. I have the amount of crit I have because of the gear base stats, spec, and number of yellow gem slots (4 str/4crit). It seems to be enough. My approach to crit will likely stay that way.
"I also did not state that the warrior in question had 100% hit, nowhere close to that. I said for the sake of the argument that they had 95 hit rating. 95 hit rating is not the same as 100% hit. In addition, I did say that the numbers were rough, perhaps you mistook how "rough" I intended them to be."
You stated that at 100 dps, 14 ap is a 1% increase and then used that to say that at 1000 dps, it takes 140 ap to be a 1% increase. That, for various reasons is wrong. For a DW warrior negating misses and the other events I mentioned like crits/haste/specials, you get a 162.5% return on AP on white attacks. This means that 14 ap would already be worth 1.625 dps. Now you factor in specials, haste, and crit which enhance AP value while adding in misses/glances/dodges which decrease it. I'll break it down later.
"My warrior has about 66% of his dps being generated by white damage. If you want to propose that 1% hit applies to only increasing your white damage, then 1% hit should increase total dps by 0.66%.
At 1000 dps, that's 6.66 dps."
My white damage breakdown is in the low 40s and dipping. The harder I hit, the more rage I have, the more MH swings I turn into heroic strikes. Increasing my gear, AP, haste, and synergy will only enhance this effect. Also, a 1% +hit is not 1% more white damage. If you hit 90% of the time with no glances and no crits, you would see a 1/.9 percent increase. That's more than 1%. If you crit 90% of the time (all of your hits), that would be a 1/1.8 increase which is less than 1%. This is where WWS logs come in handy as you can look directly at how much you can gain from a particular stat change.
"I'd like to know the exact circumstances that you view 14 AP as being equal to 4-5 dps, there are a lot of factors that would go into this. I also stated that for the sake of simplicity, we would overlook the fact that AP factors into other dps components. If I didn't state this in my post, then forgive me because I meant to."
The .35 dps per AP point I cite is from a thread on AP to DPS returns for all classes. I never calculated it persay, but it does represent something someone thought about so it's likely a fair ballpark number. Other classes like Enh Shaman and rogues were close but lower on rates of returns. You know the rogues spent 94283402893 hours on that.
Lets say you have the following stats: 35% crit, 85% total hit (15% = misses + dodges), and 3k ap. I don't have this much hit in a raid but I also usually have more AP. I have 2717 ap while farming so maybe 3k raidbuffed is low. I think they're middling values for guys doing TK/SSC but before haste gear and armor penetration. Either way, it's a good start.
I'm going to ignore partial percents as this is just ballpark napkin math. Use 2.4 speed 93 dps weapons but don't match them on flurry.
You hit 95% of your BTs for 35% crit (with impale) and 60% hits. We'll use 10% armor reduction (90% damage). You do this every 6 seconds. This is .35*3000*.45*2.2*.9 + .6*3000*.45*.9 = 1665 average damage or 277.4 dps>
You hit 95% of your WWs for 35% crit (with impale) and 60% hits. You do this every 9 seconds. .35*(3000*2.4/14+93*2.4)*.9*2.2+.6*(3000*2.4/14+93*2.4)*.9 = 909.3 damage or 101 dps.
White attacks: First we have to predict your flurry time. Flurry will be affect on the number of specials versus the number of average swings. Assuming all attacks are flurried and that misses do not use flurry charges (someone told me this and I haven't proven it out), your flurry time is the time for 3 successful hits at 2.4/1.25 speed, dw. This is 3.39 seconds. (3*2.4/1.25/.85/2 = 3.39 seconds). During that time you attempt 3.39/6 bts and 3.39/9 wws. I'll ignore hamstrings. Thats .942 extra swings. You attempt 2.4/3.39 mh swings (unflurried for lower value) for .2*2.4/3.39 WF procs. 1.08 total bonus swings. Flurry uptime = 1-(1-.35)^(3+1.08) = 82.7%. In practice, this may be high (maybe the misses/dodges do use charges) or low (spamstring). It's not completely out of line. Your average swing speed is then 82.7% of 2.4/1.25 plus 17.3% of 2.4 which is 2.00. Luckily, that's a nice number.
Your MH dps is [.35*(3000*2.4/14+93*2.4)*2+.24*.75*(3000*2.4/14+93*2.4)+.26*(3000*2.4/14+93*2.4)]*.9/2
Your OH dps is MH dps *.625
MH: 378.33 OH: 236.46
Your Total DPS is BT DPS + WW DPS + MH DPS + OH DPS.
992.4 DPS total. I can recalc all this for a few more AP and find the change.
Some notes: AP costs half the amount on items as hit rating or any rating. When given as str, the expect raid AP of a warrior from 1 str is between 2.42 and 2.66 (with and without UR). I'll crunch some more numbers. This is where I get my understanding of the value of AP.
Edit: So I put the above into Excel for some quick testing. Using the preceeding stats, making the following singular changes lead to the following DPSs.
2.7 speed weapons: 1006.3 dps (0)
Using 2.4 speed 95 DPS weapons: 997.1 DPS (??)
Adding 20 AP: 996.8 DPS (7.51/8.26)
Adding 10 hit rating: 995.8 DPS (10)
Adding 10 crit rating: 997.1 DPS (10)
The cost of each change is in paranthesis. AP can be from strength with kings and imp zerker with or without unleashed rage. Lower number is with.
DPS per itemization point:
AP: .533/.586 (higher is with unleashed rage)
Hit: .34
Crit: .47
The core of my point is that the flurry uptime equation is a smooth curve. There is no inflection or point beyond which you can definitely say you are getting less. Weapon speed can influence flurry uptime by a few percent. I have heard 25% crit, 28% crit, 30% crit, and 33% crit as cited goals. How you would determine your optimum crit would be 100% dependend on the gear you are using, the raid buffs you expect, and what kind of calculation you make on your rotation to say at some point the itemization cost of crit dips below strength. And, actually, strength generally outweighs crit until 4k ap. I have the amount of crit I have because of the gear base stats, spec, and number of yellow gem slots (4 str/4crit). It seems to be enough. My approach to crit will likely stay that way.
"I also did not state that the warrior in question had 100% hit, nowhere close to that. I said for the sake of the argument that they had 95 hit rating. 95 hit rating is not the same as 100% hit. In addition, I did say that the numbers were rough, perhaps you mistook how "rough" I intended them to be."
You stated that at 100 dps, 14 ap is a 1% increase and then used that to say that at 1000 dps, it takes 140 ap to be a 1% increase. That, for various reasons is wrong. For a DW warrior negating misses and the other events I mentioned like crits/haste/specials, you get a 162.5% return on AP on white attacks. This means that 14 ap would already be worth 1.625 dps. Now you factor in specials, haste, and crit which enhance AP value while adding in misses/glances/dodges which decrease it. I'll break it down later.
"My warrior has about 66% of his dps being generated by white damage. If you want to propose that 1% hit applies to only increasing your white damage, then 1% hit should increase total dps by 0.66%.
At 1000 dps, that's 6.66 dps."
My white damage breakdown is in the low 40s and dipping. The harder I hit, the more rage I have, the more MH swings I turn into heroic strikes. Increasing my gear, AP, haste, and synergy will only enhance this effect. Also, a 1% +hit is not 1% more white damage. If you hit 90% of the time with no glances and no crits, you would see a 1/.9 percent increase. That's more than 1%. If you crit 90% of the time (all of your hits), that would be a 1/1.8 increase which is less than 1%. This is where WWS logs come in handy as you can look directly at how much you can gain from a particular stat change.
"I'd like to know the exact circumstances that you view 14 AP as being equal to 4-5 dps, there are a lot of factors that would go into this. I also stated that for the sake of simplicity, we would overlook the fact that AP factors into other dps components. If I didn't state this in my post, then forgive me because I meant to."
The .35 dps per AP point I cite is from a thread on AP to DPS returns for all classes. I never calculated it persay, but it does represent something someone thought about so it's likely a fair ballpark number. Other classes like Enh Shaman and rogues were close but lower on rates of returns. You know the rogues spent 94283402893 hours on that.
Lets say you have the following stats: 35% crit, 85% total hit (15% = misses + dodges), and 3k ap. I don't have this much hit in a raid but I also usually have more AP. I have 2717 ap while farming so maybe 3k raidbuffed is low. I think they're middling values for guys doing TK/SSC but before haste gear and armor penetration. Either way, it's a good start.
I'm going to ignore partial percents as this is just ballpark napkin math. Use 2.4 speed 93 dps weapons but don't match them on flurry.
You hit 95% of your BTs for 35% crit (with impale) and 60% hits. We'll use 10% armor reduction (90% damage). You do this every 6 seconds. This is .35*3000*.45*2.2*.9 + .6*3000*.45*.9 = 1665 average damage or 277.4 dps>
You hit 95% of your WWs for 35% crit (with impale) and 60% hits. You do this every 9 seconds. .35*(3000*2.4/14+93*2.4)*.9*2.2+.6*(3000*2.4/14+93*2.4)*.9 = 909.3 damage or 101 dps.
White attacks: First we have to predict your flurry time. Flurry will be affect on the number of specials versus the number of average swings. Assuming all attacks are flurried and that misses do not use flurry charges (someone told me this and I haven't proven it out), your flurry time is the time for 3 successful hits at 2.4/1.25 speed, dw. This is 3.39 seconds. (3*2.4/1.25/.85/2 = 3.39 seconds). During that time you attempt 3.39/6 bts and 3.39/9 wws. I'll ignore hamstrings. Thats .942 extra swings. You attempt 2.4/3.39 mh swings (unflurried for lower value) for .2*2.4/3.39 WF procs. 1.08 total bonus swings. Flurry uptime = 1-(1-.35)^(3+1.08) = 82.7%. In practice, this may be high (maybe the misses/dodges do use charges) or low (spamstring). It's not completely out of line. Your average swing speed is then 82.7% of 2.4/1.25 plus 17.3% of 2.4 which is 2.00. Luckily, that's a nice number.
Your MH dps is [.35*(3000*2.4/14+93*2.4)*2+.24*.75*(3000*2.4/14+93*2.4)+.26*(3000*2.4/14+93*2.4)]*.9/2
Your OH dps is MH dps *.625
MH: 378.33 OH: 236.46
Your Total DPS is BT DPS + WW DPS + MH DPS + OH DPS.
992.4 DPS total. I can recalc all this for a few more AP and find the change.
Some notes: AP costs half the amount on items as hit rating or any rating. When given as str, the expect raid AP of a warrior from 1 str is between 2.42 and 2.66 (with and without UR). I'll crunch some more numbers. This is where I get my understanding of the value of AP.
Edit: So I put the above into Excel for some quick testing. Using the preceeding stats, making the following singular changes lead to the following DPSs.
2.7 speed weapons: 1006.3 dps (0)
Using 2.4 speed 95 DPS weapons: 997.1 DPS (??)
Adding 20 AP: 996.8 DPS (7.51/8.26)
Adding 10 hit rating: 995.8 DPS (10)
Adding 10 crit rating: 997.1 DPS (10)
The cost of each change is in paranthesis. AP can be from strength with kings and imp zerker with or without unleashed rage. Lower number is with.
DPS per itemization point:
AP: .533/.586 (higher is with unleashed rage)
Hit: .34
Crit: .47
Last edited by Grymm : 09/21/07 at 10:51 AM.
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Originally Posted by Voxx
This has been addressed several times already in the thread
I'd like to note that "point for point" strength > crit > hit is a pretty rough statement to make. As well as the fact that hit past 5% is not useless for arms, hit past roughly 8.6% is "useless." |
Also, I'm not sure that this thread has any reason to discuss what a guild does or does not do regarding loot distribution. That is a bit silly and probably wholly unproductive.
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Originally Posted by Emeraude
Goes by a guild to guild basis.
I'm definitely a contender for the 1st or 2nd pair for Warglaives, provided we ever get to Illidan. ^^ But then I have almost 100% raid attendance, why would I pass for somebody with much lower raid attendance? Or why would somebody have priority over me because of their class? Heh. Like I said, guild to guild basis. |
You're more likely to hear, "Rogue A and Warrior B have comparable attendance and dedication, but Rogue A does more damage in 99% of fights and isn't threat capped like Warrior B, so it would be better to go to Rogue A". (This is all hypothetical, maybe you are wrecking the rogues in every fight and they cry themselves to sleep at night.)
In a perfect world, with a perfect raid group, with raiders who all play their classes to the fullest potential, the warglaives are probably better suited as rogue weapons.
However, in a real raid, it definitely depends on your people. In my guild, we have 2 rogues on the roster. There is no backup rogue. We've both been raiding with the guild for over 2 years and rarely miss a raid. In fights that aren't excessively melee-hostile (or maybe excessively AoE friendly), you can expect us to be 1 and 2 on damage (barring random fluke death). If/when we kill Illidan and see warglaives, I sincerely hope that one of us will get them.
But maybe Emeraude's rogues aren't as dedicated. Maybe they are underperforming. Maybe his guild has had a lot of rogues burn out and is constantly recruiting new ones, while he is there every raid delivering a top-notch performance.
There are certainly circumstances under which a warrior would get first crack at the warglaives, but it seems most guilds who have gotten the drops have had a reliable and top-performing rogue to give them to.
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Originally Posted by Trazhenko
Maybe someone wouldn't have priority *purely* based on class. You're not gonna hear, "So, yeah, we are trying this new recruit and he's a rogue, guess he gets the Illidan sword over our warrior with 100% attendance for 2 years who gets #1 damage all the time".
You're more likely to hear, "Rogue A and Warrior B have comparable attendance and dedication, but Rogue A does more damage in 99% of fights and isn't threat capped like Warrior B, so it would be better to go to Rogue A". (This is all hypothetical, maybe you are wrecking the rogues in every fight and they cry themselves to sleep at night.) In a perfect world, with a perfect raid group, with raiders who all play their classes to the fullest potential, the warglaives are probably better suited as rogue weapons. However, in a real raid, it definitely depends on your people. In my guild, we have 2 rogues on the roster. There is no backup rogue. We've both been raiding with the guild for over 2 years and rarely miss a raid. In fights that aren't excessively melee-hostile (or maybe excessively AoE friendly), you can expect us to be 1 and 2 on damage (barring random fluke death). If/when we kill Illidan and see warglaives, I sincerely hope that one of us will get them. But maybe Emeraude's rogues aren't as dedicated. Maybe they are underperforming. Maybe his guild has had a lot of rogues burn out and is constantly recruiting new ones, while he is there every raid delivering a top-notch performance. There are certainly circumstances under which a warrior would get first crack at the warglaives, but it seems most guilds who have gotten the drops have had a reliable and top-performing rogue to give them to. |
(And I'm a girl, QQ).
Psshhh, there's no GIRLS on the internet :P. (sorry)
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Originally Posted by Trazhenko
Psshhh, there's no GIRLS on the internet :P. (sorry)
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So, how do you not get yourself killed with the Warglaives? Like all DPS warriors, I /drool over them, but I have to admit that is a concern
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Originally Posted by Dralmoo
So, how do you not get yourself killed with the Warglaives? Like all DPS warriors, I /drool over them, but I have to admit that is a concern
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Also I did get the second pair for those of you asking about it, there is no way I'd ever take the first one over a rogue. The Armory
Edited onPatch 2.1.3
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Originally Posted by Quixotic
I have a very good tank (Quigon for those who see him post here) and aggro is rarely a concern.
Also I did get the second pair for those of you asking about it, there is no way I'd ever take the first one over a rogue. The Armory |
Only a few fights are threat limited for warriors:
- RoS due to 45 second pure damage burn + DW/Bloodlust/Reck/Haste potion
- Bloodboil, but everyone is limited here so it's no different for warriors
- Council (marginally threat limited, but it's a slow-and-steady fight by design)
- Rage Winterchill if you get lucky with the Death & Decay (who cares)
White/Heroic damage is equally valuable to fury warriors & rogues so the haste bonus proc of the weapon is of equal value. The "rogue centric" part of this weapon is the high top end for sinister strikes, but warriors also benefit highly from a slow MH.
Notably, the T5 encounters are typically more threat limited by design.
Last edited by Natural : 09/20/07 at 5:16 PM.
Good to hear. As it were, I'm already slipping tidbits to our tanks on things to read/do to up their threat. I pulled Tidewalker last week somewhere during execute phase from a feral tank (who was probably on cruise control for part of the fight) and who's Omen was not correctly updated perhaps. I wouldn't have blown reckless if I knew I was that close on threat. I thoroughly enjoy fights where pulling aggro is not a risk.
As a fury warrior with a good tank, I'm also able to go all on pretty much every fight in BT with the exception of RoS.
It's too bad we have 3 rogues with 100% attendance that have been in the guild forever, which means I won't see the warglaives until a 4th pair drop... which is unlikely.
It's too bad we have 3 rogues with 100% attendance that have been in the guild forever, which means I won't see the warglaives until a 4th pair drop... which is unlikely.
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Originally Posted by Muarf
Afaik, it only applies to MELEE and Physical dmg, so only hunter's pet physical dmg (not scorpid poison) and no rogue poisons and shaman shocks
and i don't know about bleeding effects (rend, deepwounds, feral dots, etc.) |
Its all physical types of damage done, not just melee.
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Originally Posted by Trins
Its all physical types of damage done, not just melee.
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Originally Posted by Wowhead
Blood Frenzy Rank 2
Your Rend and Deep Wounds abilities also increase all physical damage caused to that target by 4%. |
All hunters' shots except Arcane Shots and stings are affected by bloodfrenzy then.
(and bleeding effects?)
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Originally Posted by Muarf
You're right, I don't know why I thought it was melee only, sorry.
(link) All hunters' shots except Arcane Shots and stings are affected by bloodfrenzy then. (and bleeding effects?) |
Slight derail (mabye)- It's widely known that for fury warriors strength > crit rating > hit (point for point). But does anybody know how these stats stand for arms warriors?
Sure hit is somewhat pointless past 5% but what about crit & strength? Should one try to balance them both or is one clearly better than the other?
Sure hit is somewhat pointless past 5% but what about crit & strength? Should one try to balance them both or is one clearly better than the other?
Well if your axe spec crit comes easy, I used to raid with 45% crit raid buffed and i didn't socket any gems for crit.
But arms is probably the same as fury in that you need to keep flurry going as much as possible (Ive not raided as arms for a while now tho so could'nt check)
But arms is probably the same as fury in that you need to keep flurry going as much as possible (Ive not raided as arms for a while now tho so could'nt check)
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Originally Posted by Colan
Slight derail (mabye)- It's widely known that for fury warriors strength > crit rating > hit (point for point). But does anybody know how these stats stand for arms warriors?
Sure hit is somewhat pointless past 5% but what about crit & strength? Should one try to balance them both or is one clearly better than the other? |
I'd like to note that "point for point" strength > crit > hit is a pretty rough statement to make. As well as the fact that hit past 5% is not useless for arms, hit past roughly 8.6% is "useless."
Is there a discussion about +armor pen vs +haste anywhere? Im trying to decide between [Pillager's Gauntlets] and [Onslaught Gauntlets]. Also wondering wether armor pen would be better to stack post haste nerf.
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Originally Posted by madrussian
Is there a discussion about +armor pen vs +haste anywhere? Im trying to decide between [Pillager's Gauntlets] and [Onslaught Gauntlets]. Also wondering wether armor pen would be better to stack post haste nerf.
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I think you are the first warrior i've ever seen with EITHER warglaive....let alone both.
How did the rogues like you taking them?
How did the rogues like you taking them?
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Originally Posted by Calgar
I think you are the first warrior i've ever seen with EITHER warglaive....let alone both.
How did the rogues like you taking them? |
| Pfft, if he's active enough to earn them his Rogues can cry a river for all I care. |
That said, i was asking because, like him, I have top DKP in my guild mostly due to the fact that i have no competition on all the gear i get, and only cross-class items like rings, necks and weapons cost me big. I was interested to see their reaction, as i've caught some flak for taking a ring of lethality, and my talon of al'ar. The warglaives would be about 50 times as drama prone i'd imagine.
There's probably a reason why there's about 50 times as many rogues with the warglaives compared to warriors.
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Originally Posted by Calgar
That sounds a whole lot like "Screw the guild, I want them, so I will take them."
That said, i was asking because, like him, I have top DKP in my guild mostly due to the fact that i have no competition on all the gear i get, and only cross-class items like rings, necks and weapons cost me big. I was interested to see their reaction, as i've caught some flak for taking a ring of lethality, and my talon of al'ar. The warglaives would be about 50 times as drama prone i'd imagine. There's probably a reason why there's about 50 times as many rogues with the warglaives compared to warriors. |
I'm definitely a contender for the 1st or 2nd pair for Warglaives, provided we ever get to Illidan. ^^ But then I have almost 100% raid attendance, why would I pass for somebody with much lower raid attendance? Or why would somebody have priority over me because of their class? Heh.
Like I said, guild to guild basis.
Well its also a issue of putting them to use.. I mean sure a warrior would do sick dps with them on a non dps sensitive encounter. But on all others it would be a wasted weapon really. A warrior cannot handle them due to no aggro wipe.
As much as I would love to have them,If your guild is preparing for sunwell and taking things seriusly they go first to all active rogues then to dps warriors,sad but true we cant use their real potential atm.
Edited onPatch 2.1.3
"Nowhere did I state that 33% crit chance guaranteed 100% flurry uptime, I merely stated that this is the number that is generally associated with the "optimum" uptime. The point at which added crit comes at such a low value for further flurry uptime that this added side-effect is overlooked."
The core of my point is that the flurry uptime equation is a smooth curve. There is no inflection or point beyond which you can definitely say you are getting less. Weapon speed can influence flurry uptime by a few percent. I have heard 25% crit, 28% crit, 30% crit, and 33% crit as cited goals. How you would determine your optimum crit would be 100% dependend on the gear you are using, the raid buffs you expect, and what kind of calculation you make on your rotation to say at some point the itemization cost of crit dips below strength. And, actually, strength generally outweighs crit until 4k ap. I have the amount of crit I have because of the gear base stats, spec, and number of yellow gem slots (4 str/4crit). It seems to be enough. My approach to crit will likely stay that way.
"I also did not state that the warrior in question had 100% hit, nowhere close to that. I said for the sake of the argument that they had 95 hit rating. 95 hit rating is not the same as 100% hit. In addition, I did say that the numbers were rough, perhaps you mistook how "rough" I intended them to be."
You stated that at 100 dps, 14 ap is a 1% increase and then used that to say that at 1000 dps, it takes 140 ap to be a 1% increase. That, for various reasons is wrong. For a DW warrior negating misses and the other events I mentioned like crits/haste/specials, you get a 162.5% return on AP on white attacks. This means that 14 ap would already be worth 1.625 dps. Now you factor in specials, haste, and crit which enhance AP value while adding in misses/glances/dodges which decrease it. I'll break it down later.
"My warrior has about 66% of his dps being generated by white damage. If you want to propose that 1% hit applies to only increasing your white damage, then 1% hit should increase total dps by 0.66%.
At 1000 dps, that's 6.66 dps."
My white damage breakdown is in the low 40s and dipping. The harder I hit, the more rage I have, the more MH swings I turn into heroic strikes. Increasing my gear, AP, haste, and synergy will only enhance this effect. Also, a 1% +hit is not 1% more white damage. If you hit 90% of the time with no glances and no crits, you would see a 1/.9 percent increase. That's more than 1%. If you crit 90% of the time (all of your hits), that would be a 1/1.8 increase which is less than 1%. This is where WWS logs come in handy as you can look directly at how much you can gain from a particular stat change.
"I'd like to know the exact circumstances that you view 14 AP as being equal to 4-5 dps, there are a lot of factors that would go into this. I also stated that for the sake of simplicity, we would overlook the fact that AP factors into other dps components. If I didn't state this in my post, then forgive me because I meant to."
The .35 dps per AP point I cite is from a thread on AP to DPS returns for all classes. I never calculated it persay, but it does represent something someone thought about so it's likely a fair ballpark number. Other classes like Enh Shaman and rogues were close but lower on rates of returns. You know the rogues spent 94283402893 hours on that.
Lets say you have the following stats: 35% crit, 85% total hit (15% = misses + dodges), and 3k ap. I don't have this much hit in a raid but I also usually have more AP. I have 2717 ap while farming so maybe 3k raidbuffed is low. I think they're middling values for guys doing TK/SSC but before haste gear and armor penetration. Either way, it's a good start.
I'm going to ignore partial percents as this is just ballpark napkin math. Use 2.4 speed 93 dps weapons but don't match them on flurry.
You hit 95% of your BTs for 35% crit (with impale) and 60% hits. We'll use 10% armor reduction (90% damage). You do this every 6 seconds. This is .35*3000*.45*2.2*.9 + .6*3000*.45*.9 = 1665 average damage or 277.4 dps>
You hit 95% of your WWs for 35% crit (with impale) and 60% hits. You do this every 9 seconds. .35*(3000*2.4/14+93*2.4)*.9*2.2+.6*(3000*2.4/14+93*2.4)*.9 = 909.3 damage or 101 dps.
White attacks: First we have to predict your flurry time. Flurry will be affect on the number of specials versus the number of average swings. Assuming all attacks are flurried and that misses do not use flurry charges (someone told me this and I haven't proven it out), your flurry time is the time for 3 successful hits at 2.4/1.25 speed, dw. This is 3.39 seconds. (3*2.4/1.25/.85/2 = 3.39 seconds). During that time you attempt 3.39/6 bts and 3.39/9 wws. I'll ignore hamstrings. Thats .942 extra swings. You attempt 2.4/3.39 mh swings (unflurried for lower value) for .2*2.4/3.39 WF procs. 1.08 total bonus swings. Flurry uptime = 1-(1-.35)^(3+1.08) = 82.7%. In practice, this may be high (maybe the misses/dodges do use charges) or low (spamstring). It's not completely out of line. Your average swing speed is then 82.7% of 2.4/1.25 plus 17.3% of 2.4 which is 2.00. Luckily, that's a nice number.
Your MH dps is [.35*(3000*2.4/14+93*2.4)*2+.24*.75*(3000*2.4/14+93*2.4)+.26*(3000*2.4/14+93*2.4)]*.9/2
Your OH dps is MH dps *.625
MH: 378.33 OH: 236.46
Your Total DPS is BT DPS + WW DPS + MH DPS + OH DPS.
992.4 DPS total. I can recalc all this for a few more AP and find the change.
Some notes: AP costs half the amount on items as hit rating or any rating. When given as str, the expect raid AP of a warrior from 1 str is between 2.42 and 2.66 (with and without UR). I'll crunch some more numbers. This is where I get my understanding of the value of AP.
Edit: So I put the above into Excel for some quick testing. Using the preceeding stats, making the following singular changes lead to the following DPSs.
2.7 speed weapons: 1006.3 dps (0)
Using 2.4 speed 95 DPS weapons: 997.1 DPS (??)
Adding 20 AP: 996.8 DPS (7.51/8.26)
Adding 10 hit rating: 995.8 DPS (10)
Adding 10 crit rating: 997.1 DPS (10)
The cost of each change is in paranthesis. AP can be from strength with kings and imp zerker with or without unleashed rage. Lower number is with.
DPS per itemization point:
AP: .533/.586 (higher is with unleashed rage)
Hit: .34
Crit: .47
The core of my point is that the flurry uptime equation is a smooth curve. There is no inflection or point beyond which you can definitely say you are getting less. Weapon speed can influence flurry uptime by a few percent. I have heard 25% crit, 28% crit, 30% crit, and 33% crit as cited goals. How you would determine your optimum crit would be 100% dependend on the gear you are using, the raid buffs you expect, and what kind of calculation you make on your rotation to say at some point the itemization cost of crit dips below strength. And, actually, strength generally outweighs crit until 4k ap. I have the amount of crit I have because of the gear base stats, spec, and number of yellow gem slots (4 str/4crit). It seems to be enough. My approach to crit will likely stay that way.
"I also did not state that the warrior in question had 100% hit, nowhere close to that. I said for the sake of the argument that they had 95 hit rating. 95 hit rating is not the same as 100% hit. In addition, I did say that the numbers were rough, perhaps you mistook how "rough" I intended them to be."
You stated that at 100 dps, 14 ap is a 1% increase and then used that to say that at 1000 dps, it takes 140 ap to be a 1% increase. That, for various reasons is wrong. For a DW warrior negating misses and the other events I mentioned like crits/haste/specials, you get a 162.5% return on AP on white attacks. This means that 14 ap would already be worth 1.625 dps. Now you factor in specials, haste, and crit which enhance AP value while adding in misses/glances/dodges which decrease it. I'll break it down later.
"My warrior has about 66% of his dps being generated by white damage. If you want to propose that 1% hit applies to only increasing your white damage, then 1% hit should increase total dps by 0.66%.
At 1000 dps, that's 6.66 dps."
My white damage breakdown is in the low 40s and dipping. The harder I hit, the more rage I have, the more MH swings I turn into heroic strikes. Increasing my gear, AP, haste, and synergy will only enhance this effect. Also, a 1% +hit is not 1% more white damage. If you hit 90% of the time with no glances and no crits, you would see a 1/.9 percent increase. That's more than 1%. If you crit 90% of the time (all of your hits), that would be a 1/1.8 increase which is less than 1%. This is where WWS logs come in handy as you can look directly at how much you can gain from a particular stat change.
"I'd like to know the exact circumstances that you view 14 AP as being equal to 4-5 dps, there are a lot of factors that would go into this. I also stated that for the sake of simplicity, we would overlook the fact that AP factors into other dps components. If I didn't state this in my post, then forgive me because I meant to."
The .35 dps per AP point I cite is from a thread on AP to DPS returns for all classes. I never calculated it persay, but it does represent something someone thought about so it's likely a fair ballpark number. Other classes like Enh Shaman and rogues were close but lower on rates of returns. You know the rogues spent 94283402893 hours on that.
Lets say you have the following stats: 35% crit, 85% total hit (15% = misses + dodges), and 3k ap. I don't have this much hit in a raid but I also usually have more AP. I have 2717 ap while farming so maybe 3k raidbuffed is low. I think they're middling values for guys doing TK/SSC but before haste gear and armor penetration. Either way, it's a good start.
I'm going to ignore partial percents as this is just ballpark napkin math. Use 2.4 speed 93 dps weapons but don't match them on flurry.
You hit 95% of your BTs for 35% crit (with impale) and 60% hits. We'll use 10% armor reduction (90% damage). You do this every 6 seconds. This is .35*3000*.45*2.2*.9 + .6*3000*.45*.9 = 1665 average damage or 277.4 dps>
You hit 95% of your WWs for 35% crit (with impale) and 60% hits. You do this every 9 seconds. .35*(3000*2.4/14+93*2.4)*.9*2.2+.6*(3000*2.4/14+93*2.4)*.9 = 909.3 damage or 101 dps.
White attacks: First we have to predict your flurry time. Flurry will be affect on the number of specials versus the number of average swings. Assuming all attacks are flurried and that misses do not use flurry charges (someone told me this and I haven't proven it out), your flurry time is the time for 3 successful hits at 2.4/1.25 speed, dw. This is 3.39 seconds. (3*2.4/1.25/.85/2 = 3.39 seconds). During that time you attempt 3.39/6 bts and 3.39/9 wws. I'll ignore hamstrings. Thats .942 extra swings. You attempt 2.4/3.39 mh swings (unflurried for lower value) for .2*2.4/3.39 WF procs. 1.08 total bonus swings. Flurry uptime = 1-(1-.35)^(3+1.08) = 82.7%. In practice, this may be high (maybe the misses/dodges do use charges) or low (spamstring). It's not completely out of line. Your average swing speed is then 82.7% of 2.4/1.25 plus 17.3% of 2.4 which is 2.00. Luckily, that's a nice number.
Your MH dps is [.35*(3000*2.4/14+93*2.4)*2+.24*.75*(3000*2.4/14+93*2.4)+.26*(3000*2.4/14+93*2.4)]*.9/2
Your OH dps is MH dps *.625
MH: 378.33 OH: 236.46
Your Total DPS is BT DPS + WW DPS + MH DPS + OH DPS.
992.4 DPS total. I can recalc all this for a few more AP and find the change.
Some notes: AP costs half the amount on items as hit rating or any rating. When given as str, the expect raid AP of a warrior from 1 str is between 2.42 and 2.66 (with and without UR). I'll crunch some more numbers. This is where I get my understanding of the value of AP.
Edit: So I put the above into Excel for some quick testing. Using the preceeding stats, making the following singular changes lead to the following DPSs.
2.7 speed weapons: 1006.3 dps (0)
Using 2.4 speed 95 DPS weapons: 997.1 DPS (??)
Adding 20 AP: 996.8 DPS (7.51/8.26)
Adding 10 hit rating: 995.8 DPS (10)
Adding 10 crit rating: 997.1 DPS (10)
The cost of each change is in paranthesis. AP can be from strength with kings and imp zerker with or without unleashed rage. Lower number is with.
DPS per itemization point:
AP: .533/.586 (higher is with unleashed rage)
Hit: .34
Crit: .47
Last edited by Grymm : 09/21/07 at 10:51 AM.
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Originally Posted by Voxx
This has been addressed several times already in the thread
I'd like to note that "point for point" strength > crit > hit is a pretty rough statement to make. As well as the fact that hit past 5% is not useless for arms, hit past roughly 8.6% is "useless." |
Also, I'm not sure that this thread has any reason to discuss what a guild does or does not do regarding loot distribution. That is a bit silly and probably wholly unproductive.
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Originally Posted by Emeraude
Goes by a guild to guild basis.
I'm definitely a contender for the 1st or 2nd pair for Warglaives, provided we ever get to Illidan. ^^ But then I have almost 100% raid attendance, why would I pass for somebody with much lower raid attendance? Or why would somebody have priority over me because of their class? Heh. Like I said, guild to guild basis. |
You're more likely to hear, "Rogue A and Warrior B have comparable attendance and dedication, but Rogue A does more damage in 99% of fights and isn't threat capped like Warrior B, so it would be better to go to Rogue A". (This is all hypothetical, maybe you are wrecking the rogues in every fight and they cry themselves to sleep at night.)
In a perfect world, with a perfect raid group, with raiders who all play their classes to the fullest potential, the warglaives are probably better suited as rogue weapons.
However, in a real raid, it definitely depends on your people. In my guild, we have 2 rogues on the roster. There is no backup rogue. We've both been raiding with the guild for over 2 years and rarely miss a raid. In fights that aren't excessively melee-hostile (or maybe excessively AoE friendly), you can expect us to be 1 and 2 on damage (barring random fluke death). If/when we kill Illidan and see warglaives, I sincerely hope that one of us will get them.
But maybe Emeraude's rogues aren't as dedicated. Maybe they are underperforming. Maybe his guild has had a lot of rogues burn out and is constantly recruiting new ones, while he is there every raid delivering a top-notch performance.
There are certainly circumstances under which a warrior would get first crack at the warglaives, but it seems most guilds who have gotten the drops have had a reliable and top-performing rogue to give them to.
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Originally Posted by Trazhenko
Maybe someone wouldn't have priority *purely* based on class. You're not gonna hear, "So, yeah, we are trying this new recruit and he's a rogue, guess he gets the Illidan sword over our warrior with 100% attendance for 2 years who gets #1 damage all the time".
You're more likely to hear, "Rogue A and Warrior B have comparable attendance and dedication, but Rogue A does more damage in 99% of fights and isn't threat capped like Warrior B, so it would be better to go to Rogue A". (This is all hypothetical, maybe you are wrecking the rogues in every fight and they cry themselves to sleep at night.) In a perfect world, with a perfect raid group, with raiders who all play their classes to the fullest potential, the warglaives are probably better suited as rogue weapons. However, in a real raid, it definitely depends on your people. In my guild, we have 2 rogues on the roster. There is no backup rogue. We've both been raiding with the guild for over 2 years and rarely miss a raid. In fights that aren't excessively melee-hostile (or maybe excessively AoE friendly), you can expect us to be 1 and 2 on damage (barring random fluke death). If/when we kill Illidan and see warglaives, I sincerely hope that one of us will get them. But maybe Emeraude's rogues aren't as dedicated. Maybe they are underperforming. Maybe his guild has had a lot of rogues burn out and is constantly recruiting new ones, while he is there every raid delivering a top-notch performance. There are certainly circumstances under which a warrior would get first crack at the warglaives, but it seems most guilds who have gotten the drops have had a reliable and top-performing rogue to give them to. |
(And I'm a girl, QQ).
Psshhh, there's no GIRLS on the internet :P. (sorry)
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Originally Posted by Trazhenko
Psshhh, there's no GIRLS on the internet :P. (sorry)
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So, how do you not get yourself killed with the Warglaives? Like all DPS warriors, I /drool over them, but I have to admit that is a concern
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Originally Posted by Dralmoo
So, how do you not get yourself killed with the Warglaives? Like all DPS warriors, I /drool over them, but I have to admit that is a concern
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Also I did get the second pair for those of you asking about it, there is no way I'd ever take the first one over a rogue. The Armory
Edited onPatch 2.1.3
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Originally Posted by Quixotic
I have a very good tank (Quigon for those who see him post here) and aggro is rarely a concern.
Also I did get the second pair for those of you asking about it, there is no way I'd ever take the first one over a rogue. The Armory |
Only a few fights are threat limited for warriors:
- RoS due to 45 second pure damage burn + DW/Bloodlust/Reck/Haste potion
- Bloodboil, but everyone is limited here so it's no different for warriors
- Council (marginally threat limited, but it's a slow-and-steady fight by design)
- Rage Winterchill if you get lucky with the Death & Decay (who cares)
White/Heroic damage is equally valuable to fury warriors & rogues so the haste bonus proc of the weapon is of equal value. The "rogue centric" part of this weapon is the high top end for sinister strikes, but warriors also benefit highly from a slow MH.
Notably, the T5 encounters are typically more threat limited by design.
Last edited by Natural : 09/20/07 at 5:16 PM.
Good to hear. As it were, I'm already slipping tidbits to our tanks on things to read/do to up their threat. I pulled Tidewalker last week somewhere during execute phase from a feral tank (who was probably on cruise control for part of the fight) and who's Omen was not correctly updated perhaps. I wouldn't have blown reckless if I knew I was that close on threat. I thoroughly enjoy fights where pulling aggro is not a risk.
As a fury warrior with a good tank, I'm also able to go all on pretty much every fight in BT with the exception of RoS.
It's too bad we have 3 rogues with 100% attendance that have been in the guild forever, which means I won't see the warglaives until a 4th pair drop... which is unlikely.
It's too bad we have 3 rogues with 100% attendance that have been in the guild forever, which means I won't see the warglaives until a 4th pair drop... which is unlikely.
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Originally Posted by Grymm
And, actually, strength generally outweighs crit past 4k ap.
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Originally Posted by Grymm
AP: .533/.586 (higher is with unleashed rage)
Hit: .34 Crit: .47 |
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Originally Posted by Natural
Quixotic is correct. At the T6 level threat is not that much of an issue.
Only a few fights are threat limited for warriors: - RoS due to 45 second pure damage burn + DW/Bloodlust/Reck/Haste potion - Bloodboil, but everyone is limited here so it's no different for warriors - Council (marginally threat limited, but it's a slow-and-steady fight by design) - Rage Winterchill if you get lucky with the Death & Decay (who cares) White/Heroic damage is equally valuable to fury warriors & rogues so the haste bonus proc of the weapon is of equal value. The "rogue centric" part of this weapon is the high top end for sinister strikes, but warriors also benefit highly from a slow MH. Notably, the T5 encounters are typically more threat limited by design. |
and Teron Gorefiend?those are 2 examples i can think of tier 6 level bosses.
Some mount hyjal bosses too under good circumstances.Like not getting sleeped on Anetheron.
Its 100% sure a rogue benefits more,but yes attendance and performance must be considered. I checked the warglaive warriors guild,a rogue has them allready leaving 2 rogues open for the next drop.The one has daggers and might actually love combat dagger(yeah i know its over the top) and the other could just have lost the raid with the warglaives dropping.Since the warrior got 1 he gets auto priority for the next piece.Haha just a crazy scenario.I know if i would stay in my old guild i would even get a shot.
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Originally Posted by zeratulgr
Natural,with your very good gear level,can you go full out at High Warlord Naj'entus
and Teron Gorefiend?those are 2 examples i can think of tier 6 level bosses. Some mount hyjal bosses too under good circumstances.Like not getting sleeped on Anetheron. |
Recently, our enhancement shaman has helped the melee group by totem-twisting windfury & tranquil air for the first 30ish seconds of the fight. This let's us go full throttle fairly early on. If I manage threat properly I am still close to pulling aggro at the end of execute range, but that's my goal. For reference my personal bests on the encounters you mentioned are 1353 for Najentus, 1800 for Teron, and 1762 for Anetheron.
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Originally Posted by Tiburon11
I assume you mixed these stats up. As you gain more AP, crit becomes more important. The statement would suggest some sort of diminishing returns on crit (something more significant than flurry uptime), or AP being non-linear, neither of which are true.
Unleashed Rage does not increase the value of AP. Contrarily, it increases the value of Crit, for the same reason cited above. |
Second bit - not what I was saying. The value I listed was for the dps increase divided by the itemization cost. Having UR up increases the amount of AP you get from 1 strength which decreases the itemization cost of 20 ap and enhances the rate of return for AP.
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Originally Posted by Natural
Recently, our enhancement shaman has helped the melee group by totem-twisting windfury & tranquil air for the first 30ish seconds of the fight. This let's us go full throttle fairly early on.
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Oh and Natural, do you have a WWS for that 1800 DPS on Teron? I'd be interested to see sustained 1800 on a warrior. I've only pulled off 15.5 but i haven't popped haste potions or anything.
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Originally Posted by LodeRunner
I like that. I'm gonna see if our Enhance Shaman is willing to do that.
Oh and Natural, do you have a WWS for that 1800 DPS on Teron? I'd be interested to see sustained 1800 on a warrior. I've only pulled off 15.5 but i haven't popped haste potions or anything. |
Very impressive since i get threat capped when i reach the 1,5k dps range!The tranquality totem twisting is really good but we have a resto shaman and i am sure he feels enough bothered with WF and strenght totem duty.....
Hehe the noumbers you show off are really close to our max potential a bit more maybe with less HS spamm.
Hehe the noumbers you show off are really close to our max potential a bit more maybe with less HS spamm.
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Originally Posted by zeratulgr
Very impressive since i get threat capped when i reach the 1,5k dps range!The tranquality totem twisting is really good but we have a resto shaman and i am sure he feels enough bothered with WF and strenght totem duty.....
Hehe the noumbers you show off are really close to our max potential a bit more maybe with less HS spamm. |
Edit: You should also make sure that your hunters are using Misdirection whenever it is up.
This is an excellent thread. It has been very helpful regarding the mechanics of fury warriors, spec variations, pro's/con's to each spec, suggested stats to achieve, as well as attack rotation.
I do have a question though. On trash in SSC I don't notice myself missing much (have 155 hit rating, Dual wield fury) and I am able to keep enough rage for the HS spam ontop of BT and WW when it is up. However on Bosses I do notice me missing a lot, to the point where I don't have enough rage to keep my rotation going, even without the HS spam. I was wondering if fury warriors need more hit than 155 to keep sustaned rage flow on bosses, or if fury warriors need different gear sets (one for trash, one for bosses with more hit). I have seen several posts about only 95 hit being required, but I can't imagine all the misses that would be going on and all the lack of rage resulting from it.
Again, thanks for such an epic thread, hope to see many more posts on it with insightful information.
I'd link my armory but I logged out in tank gear last night and am in class right now.
I do have a question though. On trash in SSC I don't notice myself missing much (have 155 hit rating, Dual wield fury) and I am able to keep enough rage for the HS spam ontop of BT and WW when it is up. However on Bosses I do notice me missing a lot, to the point where I don't have enough rage to keep my rotation going, even without the HS spam. I was wondering if fury warriors need more hit than 155 to keep sustaned rage flow on bosses, or if fury warriors need different gear sets (one for trash, one for bosses with more hit). I have seen several posts about only 95 hit being required, but I can't imagine all the misses that would be going on and all the lack of rage resulting from it.
Again, thanks for such an epic thread, hope to see many more posts on it with insightful information.
I'd link my armory but I logged out in tank gear last night and am in class right now.
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Originally Posted by Ziet
This is an excellent thread. It has been very helpful regarding the mechanics of fury warriors, spec variations, pro's/con's to each spec, suggested stats to achieve, as well as attack rotation.
I do have a question though. On trash in SSC I don't notice myself missing much (have 155 hit rating, Dual wield fury) and I am able to keep enough rage for the HS spam ontop of BT and WW when it is up. However on Bosses I do notice me missing a lot, to the point where I don't have enough rage to keep my rotation going, even without the HS spam. I was wondering if fury warriors need more hit than 155 to keep sustaned rage flow on bosses, or if fury warriors need different gear sets (one for trash, one for bosses with more hit). I have seen several posts about only 95 hit being required, but I can't imagine all the misses that would be going on and all the lack of rage resulting from it. Again, thanks for such an epic thread, hope to see many more posts on it with insightful information. I'd link my armory but I logged out in tank gear last night and am in class right now. |
What are your general stats? I'm only working with 181 hit rating and I know on bosses if all I do is BT/WW, I will be sitting at 100 rage all the time. Trash might be a couple levels lower and thus your hit percent is a couple higher, but it's not a huge difference. Some of it is the amount of collateral damage on trash, especially the mage mobs. On a lot of pulls, I can't WW because there are sheep hiding everywhere so my rage is fairly full on the first mob of a pack. After that, I worry less about aggro and start dumping hard into HSes.
On Hydross I tank as the continuous aggro resets would hurt my dps fairly hard and I bothered to get the resists for add tanking. On Lurker, the a zerk rage + whirl equals nice bonus rage. On Tidewalker, zerker rage + quake gets you some good rage. On FLK, there isn't a lot of collateral damage to use. On Leo I dodge whirlwind fairly early so that's rarely a good dps fight for me. Vashj you're back to taking damage for rage. On a straight boss with no incoming damage, though, I usually WW, BT, and then HS a couple times when both are on CD such as Mag. Can't really say I have rage generation issues. I could see rage dumping to 10-15 rage and then missing 6 straight times. If I go for a BT and are short rage, I just pop bloodrage. Even on a miss streak, that should get you where you need to be.
On Hydross I tank as the continuous aggro resets would hurt my dps fairly hard and I bothered to get the resists for add tanking. On Lurker, the a zerk rage + whirl equals nice bonus rage. On Tidewalker, zerker rage + quake gets you some good rage. On FLK, there isn't a lot of collateral damage to use. On Leo I dodge whirlwind fairly early so that's rarely a good dps fight for me. Vashj you're back to taking damage for rage. On a straight boss with no incoming damage, though, I usually WW, BT, and then HS a couple times when both are on CD such as Mag. Can't really say I have rage generation issues. I could see rage dumping to 10-15 rage and then missing 6 straight times. If I go for a BT and are short rage, I just pop bloodrage. Even on a miss streak, that should get you where you need to be.
I think it might prove useful for a highly experienced and knowledgeable [fury] warrior to start up a thread akin to Malan's Enhancement Shaman thread (viewed here).
The question about 'how much hit should I shoot for' seems to be a common plague considering the answer is repeatedly the same. To answer the question, however, the importance is that all specials never miss- everything beyond that is typically achieved through whatever gear supplements.
I'd be interested in seeing a thread that discusses achieving 'perma-flurry', values of AP versus crit (they are mutual but both apply in very significant forms to the fury tree), etc. I suppose one can dig through the warrior spreadsheet and this thread along with other places, but I for one wouldn't mind seeing and contributing to a cataloged version.
On the topic of DPS warriors- I have a gear question I'm sure some of you might be able to answer. My apologies if this specific question has been asked before, I found nothing on it. It concerns Solarian's Sapphire
Now, this item is subject to a warrior's Commanding Presence, boosting its raw value. My guild usually runs a melee group setup as follows: Enh Sham, DPS Warr, Rogue, Rogue, Rogue.
In the hands of a warrior with imp shouts, the 70ap becomes 87.5ap. Now, applied to the enh shammy's Unleashed Rage, this would result to a further gain of 96.25ap. Apply a warrior's Imp Zerk Stance or a rogue's Deadliness, and the return would become 105.875ap to the individual. My question is, do all of these stack? Already, there is a collective gain of 481.25ap to the group via imp shouts and Unleashed Rage alone.
The question about 'how much hit should I shoot for' seems to be a common plague considering the answer is repeatedly the same. To answer the question, however, the importance is that all specials never miss- everything beyond that is typically achieved through whatever gear supplements.
I'd be interested in seeing a thread that discusses achieving 'perma-flurry', values of AP versus crit (they are mutual but both apply in very significant forms to the fury tree), etc. I suppose one can dig through the warrior spreadsheet and this thread along with other places, but I for one wouldn't mind seeing and contributing to a cataloged version.
On the topic of DPS warriors- I have a gear question I'm sure some of you might be able to answer. My apologies if this specific question has been asked before, I found nothing on it. It concerns Solarian's Sapphire
Now, this item is subject to a warrior's Commanding Presence, boosting its raw value. My guild usually runs a melee group setup as follows: Enh Sham, DPS Warr, Rogue, Rogue, Rogue.
In the hands of a warrior with imp shouts, the 70ap becomes 87.5ap. Now, applied to the enh shammy's Unleashed Rage, this would result to a further gain of 96.25ap. Apply a warrior's Imp Zerk Stance or a rogue's Deadliness, and the return would become 105.875ap to the individual. My question is, do all of these stack? Already, there is a collective gain of 481.25ap to the group via imp shouts and Unleashed Rage alone.
I have 'hand me down' DPS gear right now that I received when our other DPS warrior already had it. My stats in battle stance is 1604 AP, ~26% crit, and 155 hit rating. I was trying to get the ramulo trinkit just to push me over 180, then I can start getting more AP.
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Originally Posted by p o j
In the hands of a warrior with imp shouts, the 70ap becomes 87.5ap. Now, applied to the enh shammy's Unleashed Rage, this would result to a further gain of 96.25ap. Apply a warrior's Imp Zerk Stance or a rogue's Deadliness, and the return would become 105.875ap to the individual. My question is, do all of these stack? Already, there is a collective gain of 481.25ap to the group via imp shouts and Unleashed Rage alone.
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Originally Posted by Anduryondon
Someone stated it stacks in this or another thread, why shouldnt it?
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Often tooltips can be misleading. What intuition tells me may not be what plays out. I provide a senario that might apply to other guilds and present a question that hopefully can be answered and confirmed for the benefit of many. The question didn't pertain to only shouts and the trinket.
Regarding "a post like Malan's," I would hold off until some of the recent mumblings about a new feature here at EJ make their debut for prime time 
I can't find the post right now either, but that Sapphire is fantastic. Interaction with Deadliness is the only thing I haven't really seen come up in discussion (to my memory).
I can't find the post right now either, but that Sapphire is fantastic. Interaction with Deadliness is the only thing I haven't really seen come up in discussion (to my memory).
Personally, I find the term "perma-flurry" irksome as it doesn't exist. Any time there exists a chance to not crit, there is a chance to not crit 3 hits in a row.
The Solarian Sapphire is an awesome trinket. If it didn't stack with anything, I'm pretty sure it would still be the highest raid dps trinket in the game.
The Solarian Sapphire is an awesome trinket. If it didn't stack with anything, I'm pretty sure it would still be the highest raid dps trinket in the game.
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Originally Posted by Grymm
Personally, I find the term "perma-flurry" irksome as it doesn't exist. Any time there exists a chance to not crit, there is a chance to not crit 3 hits in a row.
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Originally Posted by Grymm
The Solarian Sapphire is an awesome trinket.
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87.5 AP x 5 people = 437AP minimum (not including imp zerk stance, or deadliness or whatever)
437 AP = MINIMUM 31 dps...probably closer to double or triple that...so lets round off at around 70dps (31 dps is white damage, special:white damage ratio is 1:1 or 1.5:1 depending on class, so close to double or triple with napkin math)
Name another trinket that is ~70 sustained DPS, and 30 stamina.
Only one close is the pre-nerf Dragon-Spine Trophy...which i can't remember the exact figure, but 10-15% dps was thrown around (100-125 dps for a decked warrior)
437 AP = MINIMUM 31 dps...probably closer to double or triple that...so lets round off at around 70dps (31 dps is white damage, special:white damage ratio is 1:1 or 1.5:1 depending on class, so close to double or triple with napkin math)
Name another trinket that is ~70 sustained DPS, and 30 stamina.
Only one close is the pre-nerf Dragon-Spine Trophy...which i can't remember the exact figure, but 10-15% dps was thrown around (100-125 dps for a decked warrior)
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Originally Posted by p o j
Noted. I'm alluding to stacking x amount of crit, that when coupled to y amount of instant attacks inside of 3 auto-attacks, will yield z% of flurry uptime. The only discussion I've seen on this (apparently uninteresting) topic is here: post 1067.
It's good, but just how good? |
Rank 8 Battle Shout: 305
Rank 8 Battle Shout + [Solarian's Sapphire]: 375
Rank 8 Battle Shout: 305 x Commanding Pressence = 382 Battle Shout
Rank 8 Battle Shout + [Solarian's Sapphire] x Commanding Pressence = 469 Battle Shout
Rank 9 Battle Shout(Estimated): 400
Rank 9 Battle Shout + [Solarian's Sapphire]: 470
Rank 9 Battle Shout: 400 x Commanding Pressense = 500 Battle Shout
Rank 9 Battle Shout + [Solarian's Sapphire] x Commanding Pressence = 588 Battle Shout
A little bit off the subject, but the right thread I believe.. I just started Fury spec this week(17/44/0) for raiding and although I am loving the steady damage output although I am not sure if I am using the right weapons per my spec/attributes. Currently; 32%crit, 167hit, 1875AP and I am using MH Netherblade(From Alar) and OH AS2 Sword(the 1.5delay one). I have looked at some other Warriors and they are using 2 slow weapons. I know pre-bc most Warriors went with Slow/Fast. But now in BC this is new to me. 2 Slow weapons? Is there reason behind this? With high enough AP/crit I don't see why 2 Slow weapons would be a problem, but the general trend is Slow/Fast.
I maintained a solid 920dps on Morogrim this week(although I did not get to go completely all out because of MT aggro generation). I do feel room for improvement and was thinking maybe going with Talon from Alar or Talon from Morogrim for MH, and OH the Netherblade instead of the AS2 Sword. Is this worthwhile to do, or should I just stay with the trend Fast/Slow combo?
I maintained a solid 920dps on Morogrim this week(although I did not get to go completely all out because of MT aggro generation). I do feel room for improvement and was thinking maybe going with Talon from Alar or Talon from Morogrim for MH, and OH the Netherblade instead of the AS2 Sword. Is this worthwhile to do, or should I just stay with the trend Fast/Slow combo?
Just test the Spreadsheet for Dps Questions, but calculations showed that it doesnt really matter if you have a slow or fast offhand, personally i stay with fast offhands, due to less spiky rage gain.
IS there a new updated warrior Spreadsheet?? Say BT and hyjal loot?? Or close to??
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Originally Posted by Aedon
IS there a new updated warrior Spreadsheet?? Say BT and hyjal loot?? Or close to??
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Originally Posted by LodeRunner
[...] but adding loot gives the creator a headache.
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Originally Posted by Grymm
And, actually, strength generally outweighs crit past 4k ap.
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Originally Posted by Grymm
AP: .533/.586 (higher is with unleashed rage)
Hit: .34 Crit: .47 |
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Originally Posted by Natural
Quixotic is correct. At the T6 level threat is not that much of an issue.
Only a few fights are threat limited for warriors: - RoS due to 45 second pure damage burn + DW/Bloodlust/Reck/Haste potion - Bloodboil, but everyone is limited here so it's no different for warriors - Council (marginally threat limited, but it's a slow-and-steady fight by design) - Rage Winterchill if you get lucky with the Death & Decay (who cares) White/Heroic damage is equally valuable to fury warriors & rogues so the haste bonus proc of the weapon is of equal value. The "rogue centric" part of this weapon is the high top end for sinister strikes, but warriors also benefit highly from a slow MH. Notably, the T5 encounters are typically more threat limited by design. |
and Teron Gorefiend?those are 2 examples i can think of tier 6 level bosses.
Some mount hyjal bosses too under good circumstances.Like not getting sleeped on Anetheron.
Its 100% sure a rogue benefits more,but yes attendance and performance must be considered. I checked the warglaive warriors guild,a rogue has them allready leaving 2 rogues open for the next drop.The one has daggers and might actually love combat dagger(yeah i know its over the top) and the other could just have lost the raid with the warglaives dropping.Since the warrior got 1 he gets auto priority for the next piece.Haha just a crazy scenario.I know if i would stay in my old guild i would even get a shot.
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Originally Posted by zeratulgr
Natural,with your very good gear level,can you go full out at High Warlord Naj'entus
and Teron Gorefiend?those are 2 examples i can think of tier 6 level bosses. Some mount hyjal bosses too under good circumstances.Like not getting sleeped on Anetheron. |
Recently, our enhancement shaman has helped the melee group by totem-twisting windfury & tranquil air for the first 30ish seconds of the fight. This let's us go full throttle fairly early on. If I manage threat properly I am still close to pulling aggro at the end of execute range, but that's my goal. For reference my personal bests on the encounters you mentioned are 1353 for Najentus, 1800 for Teron, and 1762 for Anetheron.
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Originally Posted by Tiburon11
I assume you mixed these stats up. As you gain more AP, crit becomes more important. The statement would suggest some sort of diminishing returns on crit (something more significant than flurry uptime), or AP being non-linear, neither of which are true.
Unleashed Rage does not increase the value of AP. Contrarily, it increases the value of Crit, for the same reason cited above. |
Second bit - not what I was saying. The value I listed was for the dps increase divided by the itemization cost. Having UR up increases the amount of AP you get from 1 strength which decreases the itemization cost of 20 ap and enhances the rate of return for AP.
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Originally Posted by Natural
Recently, our enhancement shaman has helped the melee group by totem-twisting windfury & tranquil air for the first 30ish seconds of the fight. This let's us go full throttle fairly early on.
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Oh and Natural, do you have a WWS for that 1800 DPS on Teron? I'd be interested to see sustained 1800 on a warrior. I've only pulled off 15.5 but i haven't popped haste potions or anything.
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Originally Posted by LodeRunner
I like that. I'm gonna see if our Enhance Shaman is willing to do that.
Oh and Natural, do you have a WWS for that 1800 DPS on Teron? I'd be interested to see sustained 1800 on a warrior. I've only pulled off 15.5 but i haven't popped haste potions or anything. |
Very impressive since i get threat capped when i reach the 1,5k dps range!The tranquality totem twisting is really good but we have a resto shaman and i am sure he feels enough bothered with WF and strenght totem duty.....
Hehe the noumbers you show off are really close to our max potential a bit more maybe with less HS spamm.
Hehe the noumbers you show off are really close to our max potential a bit more maybe with less HS spamm.
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Originally Posted by zeratulgr
Very impressive since i get threat capped when i reach the 1,5k dps range!The tranquality totem twisting is really good but we have a resto shaman and i am sure he feels enough bothered with WF and strenght totem duty.....
Hehe the noumbers you show off are really close to our max potential a bit more maybe with less HS spamm. |
Edit: You should also make sure that your hunters are using Misdirection whenever it is up.
This is an excellent thread. It has been very helpful regarding the mechanics of fury warriors, spec variations, pro's/con's to each spec, suggested stats to achieve, as well as attack rotation.
I do have a question though. On trash in SSC I don't notice myself missing much (have 155 hit rating, Dual wield fury) and I am able to keep enough rage for the HS spam ontop of BT and WW when it is up. However on Bosses I do notice me missing a lot, to the point where I don't have enough rage to keep my rotation going, even without the HS spam. I was wondering if fury warriors need more hit than 155 to keep sustaned rage flow on bosses, or if fury warriors need different gear sets (one for trash, one for bosses with more hit). I have seen several posts about only 95 hit being required, but I can't imagine all the misses that would be going on and all the lack of rage resulting from it.
Again, thanks for such an epic thread, hope to see many more posts on it with insightful information.
I'd link my armory but I logged out in tank gear last night and am in class right now.
I do have a question though. On trash in SSC I don't notice myself missing much (have 155 hit rating, Dual wield fury) and I am able to keep enough rage for the HS spam ontop of BT and WW when it is up. However on Bosses I do notice me missing a lot, to the point where I don't have enough rage to keep my rotation going, even without the HS spam. I was wondering if fury warriors need more hit than 155 to keep sustaned rage flow on bosses, or if fury warriors need different gear sets (one for trash, one for bosses with more hit). I have seen several posts about only 95 hit being required, but I can't imagine all the misses that would be going on and all the lack of rage resulting from it.
Again, thanks for such an epic thread, hope to see many more posts on it with insightful information.
I'd link my armory but I logged out in tank gear last night and am in class right now.
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Originally Posted by Ziet
This is an excellent thread. It has been very helpful regarding the mechanics of fury warriors, spec variations, pro's/con's to each spec, suggested stats to achieve, as well as attack rotation.
I do have a question though. On trash in SSC I don't notice myself missing much (have 155 hit rating, Dual wield fury) and I am able to keep enough rage for the HS spam ontop of BT and WW when it is up. However on Bosses I do notice me missing a lot, to the point where I don't have enough rage to keep my rotation going, even without the HS spam. I was wondering if fury warriors need more hit than 155 to keep sustaned rage flow on bosses, or if fury warriors need different gear sets (one for trash, one for bosses with more hit). I have seen several posts about only 95 hit being required, but I can't imagine all the misses that would be going on and all the lack of rage resulting from it. Again, thanks for such an epic thread, hope to see many more posts on it with insightful information. I'd link my armory but I logged out in tank gear last night and am in class right now. |
What are your general stats? I'm only working with 181 hit rating and I know on bosses if all I do is BT/WW, I will be sitting at 100 rage all the time. Trash might be a couple levels lower and thus your hit percent is a couple higher, but it's not a huge difference. Some of it is the amount of collateral damage on trash, especially the mage mobs. On a lot of pulls, I can't WW because there are sheep hiding everywhere so my rage is fairly full on the first mob of a pack. After that, I worry less about aggro and start dumping hard into HSes.
On Hydross I tank as the continuous aggro resets would hurt my dps fairly hard and I bothered to get the resists for add tanking. On Lurker, the a zerk rage + whirl equals nice bonus rage. On Tidewalker, zerker rage + quake gets you some good rage. On FLK, there isn't a lot of collateral damage to use. On Leo I dodge whirlwind fairly early so that's rarely a good dps fight for me. Vashj you're back to taking damage for rage. On a straight boss with no incoming damage, though, I usually WW, BT, and then HS a couple times when both are on CD such as Mag. Can't really say I have rage generation issues. I could see rage dumping to 10-15 rage and then missing 6 straight times. If I go for a BT and are short rage, I just pop bloodrage. Even on a miss streak, that should get you where you need to be.
On Hydross I tank as the continuous aggro resets would hurt my dps fairly hard and I bothered to get the resists for add tanking. On Lurker, the a zerk rage + whirl equals nice bonus rage. On Tidewalker, zerker rage + quake gets you some good rage. On FLK, there isn't a lot of collateral damage to use. On Leo I dodge whirlwind fairly early so that's rarely a good dps fight for me. Vashj you're back to taking damage for rage. On a straight boss with no incoming damage, though, I usually WW, BT, and then HS a couple times when both are on CD such as Mag. Can't really say I have rage generation issues. I could see rage dumping to 10-15 rage and then missing 6 straight times. If I go for a BT and are short rage, I just pop bloodrage. Even on a miss streak, that should get you where you need to be.
I think it might prove useful for a highly experienced and knowledgeable [fury] warrior to start up a thread akin to Malan's Enhancement Shaman thread (viewed here).
The question about 'how much hit should I shoot for' seems to be a common plague considering the answer is repeatedly the same. To answer the question, however, the importance is that all specials never miss- everything beyond that is typically achieved through whatever gear supplements.
I'd be interested in seeing a thread that discusses achieving 'perma-flurry', values of AP versus crit (they are mutual but both apply in very significant forms to the fury tree), etc. I suppose one can dig through the warrior spreadsheet and this thread along with other places, but I for one wouldn't mind seeing and contributing to a cataloged version.
On the topic of DPS warriors- I have a gear question I'm sure some of you might be able to answer. My apologies if this specific question has been asked before, I found nothing on it. It concerns Solarian's Sapphire
Now, this item is subject to a warrior's Commanding Presence, boosting its raw value. My guild usually runs a melee group setup as follows: Enh Sham, DPS Warr, Rogue, Rogue, Rogue.
In the hands of a warrior with imp shouts, the 70ap becomes 87.5ap. Now, applied to the enh shammy's Unleashed Rage, this would result to a further gain of 96.25ap. Apply a warrior's Imp Zerk Stance or a rogue's Deadliness, and the return would become 105.875ap to the individual. My question is, do all of these stack? Already, there is a collective gain of 481.25ap to the group via imp shouts and Unleashed Rage alone.
The question about 'how much hit should I shoot for' seems to be a common plague considering the answer is repeatedly the same. To answer the question, however, the importance is that all specials never miss- everything beyond that is typically achieved through whatever gear supplements.
I'd be interested in seeing a thread that discusses achieving 'perma-flurry', values of AP versus crit (they are mutual but both apply in very significant forms to the fury tree), etc. I suppose one can dig through the warrior spreadsheet and this thread along with other places, but I for one wouldn't mind seeing and contributing to a cataloged version.
On the topic of DPS warriors- I have a gear question I'm sure some of you might be able to answer. My apologies if this specific question has been asked before, I found nothing on it. It concerns Solarian's Sapphire
Now, this item is subject to a warrior's Commanding Presence, boosting its raw value. My guild usually runs a melee group setup as follows: Enh Sham, DPS Warr, Rogue, Rogue, Rogue.
In the hands of a warrior with imp shouts, the 70ap becomes 87.5ap. Now, applied to the enh shammy's Unleashed Rage, this would result to a further gain of 96.25ap. Apply a warrior's Imp Zerk Stance or a rogue's Deadliness, and the return would become 105.875ap to the individual. My question is, do all of these stack? Already, there is a collective gain of 481.25ap to the group via imp shouts and Unleashed Rage alone.
I have 'hand me down' DPS gear right now that I received when our other DPS warrior already had it. My stats in battle stance is 1604 AP, ~26% crit, and 155 hit rating. I was trying to get the ramulo trinkit just to push me over 180, then I can start getting more AP.
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Originally Posted by p o j
In the hands of a warrior with imp shouts, the 70ap becomes 87.5ap. Now, applied to the enh shammy's Unleashed Rage, this would result to a further gain of 96.25ap. Apply a warrior's Imp Zerk Stance or a rogue's Deadliness, and the return would become 105.875ap to the individual. My question is, do all of these stack? Already, there is a collective gain of 481.25ap to the group via imp shouts and Unleashed Rage alone.
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Originally Posted by Anduryondon
Someone stated it stacks in this or another thread, why shouldnt it?
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Often tooltips can be misleading. What intuition tells me may not be what plays out. I provide a senario that might apply to other guilds and present a question that hopefully can be answered and confirmed for the benefit of many. The question didn't pertain to only shouts and the trinket.
Regarding "a post like Malan's," I would hold off until some of the recent mumblings about a new feature here at EJ make their debut for prime time
I can't find the post right now either, but that Sapphire is fantastic. Interaction with Deadliness is the only thing I haven't really seen come up in discussion (to my memory).
I can't find the post right now either, but that Sapphire is fantastic. Interaction with Deadliness is the only thing I haven't really seen come up in discussion (to my memory).
Personally, I find the term "perma-flurry" irksome as it doesn't exist. Any time there exists a chance to not crit, there is a chance to not crit 3 hits in a row.
The Solarian Sapphire is an awesome trinket. If it didn't stack with anything, I'm pretty sure it would still be the highest raid dps trinket in the game.
The Solarian Sapphire is an awesome trinket. If it didn't stack with anything, I'm pretty sure it would still be the highest raid dps trinket in the game.
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Originally Posted by Grymm
Personally, I find the term "perma-flurry" irksome as it doesn't exist. Any time there exists a chance to not crit, there is a chance to not crit 3 hits in a row.
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Originally Posted by Grymm
The Solarian Sapphire is an awesome trinket.
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87.5 AP x 5 people = 437AP minimum (not including imp zerk stance, or deadliness or whatever)
437 AP = MINIMUM 31 dps...probably closer to double or triple that...so lets round off at around 70dps (31 dps is white damage, special:white damage ratio is 1:1 or 1.5:1 depending on class, so close to double or triple with napkin math)
Name another trinket that is ~70 sustained DPS, and 30 stamina.
Only one close is the pre-nerf Dragon-Spine Trophy...which i can't remember the exact figure, but 10-15% dps was thrown around (100-125 dps for a decked warrior)
437 AP = MINIMUM 31 dps...probably closer to double or triple that...so lets round off at around 70dps (31 dps is white damage, special:white damage ratio is 1:1 or 1.5:1 depending on class, so close to double or triple with napkin math)
Name another trinket that is ~70 sustained DPS, and 30 stamina.
Only one close is the pre-nerf Dragon-Spine Trophy...which i can't remember the exact figure, but 10-15% dps was thrown around (100-125 dps for a decked warrior)
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Originally Posted by p o j
Noted. I'm alluding to stacking x amount of crit, that when coupled to y amount of instant attacks inside of 3 auto-attacks, will yield z% of flurry uptime. The only discussion I've seen on this (apparently uninteresting) topic is here: post 1067.
It's good, but just how good? |
Rank 8 Battle Shout: 305
Rank 8 Battle Shout + [Solarian's Sapphire]: 375
Rank 8 Battle Shout: 305 x Commanding Pressence = 382 Battle Shout
Rank 8 Battle Shout + [Solarian's Sapphire] x Commanding Pressence = 469 Battle Shout
Rank 9 Battle Shout(Estimated): 400
Rank 9 Battle Shout + [Solarian's Sapphire]: 470
Rank 9 Battle Shout: 400 x Commanding Pressense = 500 Battle Shout
Rank 9 Battle Shout + [Solarian's Sapphire] x Commanding Pressence = 588 Battle Shout
A little bit off the subject, but the right thread I believe.. I just started Fury spec this week(17/44/0) for raiding and although I am loving the steady damage output although I am not sure if I am using the right weapons per my spec/attributes. Currently; 32%crit, 167hit, 1875AP and I am using MH Netherblade(From Alar) and OH AS2 Sword(the 1.5delay one). I have looked at some other Warriors and they are using 2 slow weapons. I know pre-bc most Warriors went with Slow/Fast. But now in BC this is new to me. 2 Slow weapons? Is there reason behind this? With high enough AP/crit I don't see why 2 Slow weapons would be a problem, but the general trend is Slow/Fast.
I maintained a solid 920dps on Morogrim this week(although I did not get to go completely all out because of MT aggro generation). I do feel room for improvement and was thinking maybe going with Talon from Alar or Talon from Morogrim for MH, and OH the Netherblade instead of the AS2 Sword. Is this worthwhile to do, or should I just stay with the trend Fast/Slow combo?
I maintained a solid 920dps on Morogrim this week(although I did not get to go completely all out because of MT aggro generation). I do feel room for improvement and was thinking maybe going with Talon from Alar or Talon from Morogrim for MH, and OH the Netherblade instead of the AS2 Sword. Is this worthwhile to do, or should I just stay with the trend Fast/Slow combo?
Just test the Spreadsheet for Dps Questions, but calculations showed that it doesnt really matter if you have a slow or fast offhand, personally i stay with fast offhands, due to less spiky rage gain.
IS there a new updated warrior Spreadsheet?? Say BT and hyjal loot?? Or close to??
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Originally Posted by Aedon
IS there a new updated warrior Spreadsheet?? Say BT and hyjal loot?? Or close to??
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Originally Posted by LodeRunner
[...] but adding loot gives the creator a headache.
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Edited onPatch 2.1.3
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Originally Posted by dr_AllCOM3
Oh, nice. We have a volunteer for adding all the items. Just tell me when you're finished.
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Last edited by Graul : 09/23/07 at 5:32 AM.
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Originally Posted by p o j
I think it might prove useful for a highly experienced and knowledgeable [fury] warrior to start up a thread akin to Malan's Enhancement Shaman thread (viewed here).
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I'm an idiot, ignore this post. Preferably somebody delete it...
I have a question about Warrior DPS.
I heard that 17/44/0 is the best Fury spec to go with and I'm wondering if someone can link me a Wowhead build or something around that. I'm also wondering how I should work my rotation to best output my DPS as DW Fury 17/44/0.
Thank you,
Sinnermighty
I heard that 17/44/0 is the best Fury spec to go with and I'm wondering if someone can link me a Wowhead build or something around that. I'm also wondering how I should work my rotation to best output my DPS as DW Fury 17/44/0.
Thank you,
Sinnermighty
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Originally Posted by Sinnermighty
I have a question about Warrior DPS.
I heard that 17/44/0 is the best Fury spec to go with and I'm wondering if someone can link me a Wowhead build or something around that. I'm also wondering how I should work my rotation to best output my DPS as DW Fury 17/44/0. Thank you, Sinnermighty |
Have been using this build for quite some time now and find it to be a very good build for fury dps.
Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft
Some talents were taken for tanking/Support, Something you often do as a dps warrior and no other talents for example in the arms tree are worthwhile taking for fury dps.
Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft
Some talents were taken for tanking/Support, Something you often do as a dps warrior and no other talents for example in the arms tree are worthwhile taking for fury dps.
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Originally Posted by Tiburon11
I wouldn't mind doing this. It would be a good way to "refresh" my warrior knowledge. Unless someone else has started it, I'm going to give it a try.
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Topics I've always wanted to see proved/ disproved/ gone into detail:
- More hit doesn't mean more chances to crit
- x% crit is needed to keep flurry active for y% of combat (Try as I might to come up with a formula for this, I fail. Seeking ex-professor's help)
- What is 'crit cap' and how does it apply?
- All things considered, how much AP is equal to 1% crit (with regards to dps gain assuming law of averages)?
- Specific interactions with WF and the enhancement shaman (our most potent "buff")
Hopefully, should such a thread get started, the typical 'Here is my armory- tell me what I need to change' posts would be discouraged.
So I've given up on trying to use ODE's, but instead made 2 different (and very simple) calculations concerning flurry.
z_3, z_2 = chance to not crit (%)
x = crit chance (%)
y = hit chance (assuming 100 - x = y) (%)
Autoattack (3 before flurry expires after activation):
x_3 ~> y^3 = z_3
Instants (assuming 2 hits inside the 3 auto-attack window- 2 chances to reapply flurry):
x_2 ~> y^2 = z_2
Now, how to relate the following senarios:
x_3 series crits, x_2 series crits
x_3 series hits, x_2 series hits
x_3 series crits, x_2 series crits
x_3 series hits, x_2 series crits
z_3, z_2 = chance to not crit (%)
x = crit chance (%)
y = hit chance (assuming 100 - x = y) (%)
Autoattack (3 before flurry expires after activation):
x_3 ~> y^3 = z_3
Instants (assuming 2 hits inside the 3 auto-attack window- 2 chances to reapply flurry):
x_2 ~> y^2 = z_2
Now, how to relate the following senarios:
x_3 series crits, x_2 series crits
x_3 series hits, x_2 series hits
x_3 series crits, x_2 series crits
x_3 series hits, x_2 series crits
Edited onPatch 2.2.3
DPS Warrior FAQ
I had some time to work on it today, so here's what I've written. There are still a lot of things left to do, such as add meta gems and armor penetration. Most of this stuff is off the top of my head, so a lot isn't backed by math. I'd also like to know if this looks like it has potential, or if it's more annoying spam. Any suggestions would be nice. And definitely point out any errors I may have made.
The Hit Table and Itemization
To the best of our knowledge, warrior attacks are based upon a roll table. This may not be the exact way Blizzard’s system does it, but it has been confirmed by Blizzard to give the nearly the same results as their system. It works very simply. Every attack you deal and receive is based off a roll table similar to:
0-28: Miss
28-33.6: Dodge
33.6-58.6: Glancing
58.6-78.6: Crit
78.6-100: Hit
This table is assuming you have no +hit gear and 20% crit, and you are fighting a normal level 73 boss. Say you roll a 10, that would mean your next attack would be a miss.
It is important to note the change when you add, say, 1% hit. The table would now look like this:
0-27: Miss
27-32.6: Dodge
32.6-57.6: Glancing
57.6-77.6: Crit
77.6-100: Hit
While adding 1% hit obviously increased the hit on the table by 1%, it also reduced your miss rate by 1%. The same thing happens when you add crit; you gain 1% crit and lose 1% hit.
Note that this table is different for yellow attacks. Since yellow attacks only have a 9% miss rate and cannot glance, they have a correspondingly higher hit rate.
Crit Cap
As you might have noticed from reading above, there is a point on the table where you will have removed all hit from the table. At this point, adding more crit would be useless, since it would be ignored. This occurs at 42.4% crit for white attacks against a standard level 73 mob. You can, however, raise this cap by adding hit. Every 1% hit you add increases the crit cap by the same amount. Since there are no ways to reduce the dodge or glancing rates (except possibly weapon skill, who’s effects are still relatively unclear), there is a maximum amount of crit you can stack. This occurs for white attacks when you have capped your hit, which means the maximum useful amount of crit occurs at 69.4%. Note that yellow attacks have a much higher cap since they only have a 9% miss rate and they cannot glance.
“Perma Flurry”
This is a myth. Unless you have 100% crit, there will always be a chance that flurry can drop off. 33%, 30% or any similar numbers hold no special value.
Diminishing Returns on Crit
Deep Wounds- This debuff ticks every 3 seconds, but this counter is refreshed every time you crit. Therefore, as you gain more crit, this debuff will refresh more often, and tick less often.
Flurry- Imagine you have 1% crit. Every time you crit, you will most likely consume all three flurry charges afterwards. Now imagine you have 98% crit. If you added 1% more crit, the returns from flurry would be negligible. The chance of flurry falling off would be so low, that the 1% crit you just added would have almost no effect on your flurry uptime.
Hit vs. Crit
Hit and Crit both cause around the same increase in damage. 1% hit adds one attack in every hundred hits, and 1% crit doubles the damage of one hit in every hundred hits. Hit has the added value of triggering trinkets and procs, such as Dragonspine Trophy or Mongoose. It also causes more consistent rage generation, which is an underrated feature. Crit has the added value of triggering Deep Wounds and Flurry, as well as being modified by impale. Crit has a slight advantage, though they are pretty even overall. Thus, you can say that 1% hit is roughly equal to 1% crit.
However, hit caps complicate this. While white attacks cap out at 28% hit, yellow attacks cap out at only 9%. As you can probably realize, stacking hit past 9% will only effect your white damage. An average fury warrior’s white attacks usually make up around 50% of his overall dps. Thus, you can very roughly say that 1% crit is equal to 2% hit once you have over 9% hit.
Note that stacking hit past 9% is worthless for any build which uses a two-handed weapon.
“But you can’t crit if you don’t hit.”
Yes, you can. Adding hit does not increase your chance to crit (unless you have some sort of proc associated with hiting, such as a Dragonspine Trophy). The only exception to this is if you are at the crit cap, which has been explained above.
Crit vs. AP
This is a very tough comparison to make. Crit and AP scale inversely. As you gain more crit, AP becomes more valuable. As you gain more AP, crit becomes more valuable. Because of this, your personal gear, buffs, and group layout can have significant impact on the values of both stats.
The best way to determine which is better for you, is through actual dps testing during a raid. If you don’t wish to do that, you can also try using the spreadsheet.
In general, however:
AP is significantly better when self buffed.
AP is slightly better when raid buffed (no group buffs).
AP is slightly better if you are grouped with a feral druid.
Crit is slightly better if grouped with enhancement shaman and no feral druid.
Crit is superior in a Mortal Strike build, due to normalization.
Haste
At low levels, haste is very comparable to hit. Adding 1% haste will cause 1 extra attack in your next 100 attacks, similar to hit. For example:
How to Itemize or “But don’t I need 200 Hit Rating?”
There are no magical numbers when it comes to warrior damage. Achieving say, 200 hit rating does not suddenly increase your dps. When deciding on an item to equip, just figure out which item will increase your dps by the largest amount. Don’t equip an item just to hit a certain value. In the end, your stats should even out due to blizzard’s itemization. Due not trust generic values such as “AP is worth 1 point, Crit 2 points, etc.” These values can change and vary significantly between players.
Specific Gear
Trinkets
[Madness of the Betrayer] Rumored to have a 2.4ppm proc. This would give it a static value of -120 armor.
[(-300armor*10seconds*2.4ppm)/60seconds]
[Tsunami Talisman] Rumored to have a .9 ppm proc. This would give it a static 51 attack power.
[(340ap*10seconds*.9ppm)/60seconds]
[Dragonspine Trophy] Rumored to have a 1.5 ppm proc. This would give it a static 81 haste rating.
[(325haste*10seconds*1.5ppm)/60seconds]
[Bloodlust Brooch] The “use” function will add 46 attack power if triggered on every cool down.
[(278ap*20seconds)/120seconds]
[Hourglass of the Unraveller] Rumored to have a .9 ppm proc. This would give it a static 45 attack power.
[(300ap*10seconds*.9ppm)/60seconds]
[Abacus of Violent Odds] The “use” function will add 21 haste rating if triggered on every cool down.
[(260haste*10seconds)/120seconds]
Slow MH vs. Fast MH
Slow MH- Larger Whirlwinds, More rage efficient Cleaves
Fast MH- More Heroics Strikes and Cleaves
The slower the MH, the better. However, DPS is still king. If there is a significant difference in DPS, a fast MH may be used. In this situation, you may want to prioritize heroic strike over whirlwind.
Slow OH vs. Fast OH
There is very little difference between the two. The weapon with the highest DPS/stats will win. However, a fast OH is usually preferred since it provides more consistent rage generation.
Talents, Specs, and Abilities
The cookie cutter build is 17/44, laid out like: Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft
Improved Whirlwind
Improved Whirlwind will provide the smallest DPS improvement among talents, which is why there is usually only 1 point put into it. Some people choose to take piercing howl instead of this talent.
There is another advantage to putting one point in improved whirlwind. It causes your whirlwind and bloodthirst cool downs to line up exactly. For example:
0- Bloodthirst
1.5-Whirlwind
6-Bloodthirst
10.5-Whirlwind
12-Bloodthirst
18-Bloodthirst
19.5-Whirlwind
Etc.
Heroic Strike
Keep in mind that this ability costs extra rage. It costs the 15 rage to cast, plus the rage that would have been generated if it were a white hit. Also keep in mind that this is a yellow attack, which means it only has a miss rate of 9% and can't glance.
Slam
Slam's main draw is the fact the it is not normalized. It's damage is calculated using this formula:
Damage=Base Weapon Damage + (Weapon Speed * Attack Power / 14)
Normalized abilities, such as whirlwind and mortal strike, are calculated using this formula:
Damage=Base Weapon Damage + (X* Attack Power / 14)
X is a constant, it does not vary upon your weapon's speed. When you are using a two-hander, this value will be 3.3. When using a one-hander, it is 2.4. For a dagger, it is 1.7.
The extra damage really becomes obvious with very slow weapons. Take for example, a [Stormherald] on a player with 3500 AP.
Slam=579 + (3.8*3500/14)=1524 + 140=1664
Mortal Strike=579 + (3.3*3500/14)=1404 + 210=1614
As you can see, Slam can actually hit harder than MS. It also costs half the rage. The only downfall is that it resets the swing timer. Improved Slam has a casting time of .5 seconds, so if it is used immediately after a white hit, you should only lose .5 seconds + your latency off your swing.
Note that a slower weapon will not greatly increase damage over time. As long as your weapon + buffs stay at less than 2.5 speed (so you can complete the rotation), the extra instant attack damage will be mostly made up by a faster swing time.
Threat
Battle Stance and Berzerker Stance have a passive -20% threat generation mechanic. This combined with salvation (-30%) will usually let you go all out. If you are still having trouble, you can do a number of things:
- Use [Prism of Inner Calm]. This reduces your threat by around 10%.
- Get soulstoned, and die to wipe your agro.
- Limit your heroic strikes.
“Couldn’t I replace Heroic Strikes with Cleaves to do less threat?”
Yes, this is an option. Cleave does actually do more threat per bonus damage. However, the total threat added is lower than heroic strike. Because of this, you can do it more frequently and take advantage of the benefits from impale and and yellow damage.
Rotations
Dual Wield Fury
100%-20%
In this range, always ensure that you have rage (and that you abilities aren’t on the global cool down) to use Bloodthirst every time it comes off cool down. Whirlwind is your next priority, keep it on cool down, but Bloodthirst has priority if they both come off cool down at the same time. Keep rampage up when Bloodthirst and Whirlwind are on global cool down. If you have extra rage after that, spend it on heroic strikes. Additionally, if you extra rage after using heroic strike on every auto attack, you can throw in some hamstrings between Bloodthirsts and Whirlwinds.
20%-0%
Execute. Don’t save a full rage bar for this phase. If you do go into it with a full rage bar, Bloodthirst than start executing. The key to maximizing dps in this phase is to ensure that you can execute on every global cool down. Equipping a fast MH usually helps to do this, by smoothing out your rage generation. Something like [King's Defender] works well. Also, if you have more than 2989AP, Bloodthirst is more efficient than execute.
(30 Rage Execute=1245 Damage; 2989AP Bloodthirst=1245 Damage Thanks Zoroaster)
Mortal Strike/Improved Slam Build
100%-20%
In order to get the most out of your slams, you will want to time them to hit immediately after a swing. To do this efficiently, you will want a swing timer. I recommend using either Swinger or Quartz.
You will than have a rotation like this:
White Attack->Slam->Mortal Strike->White Attack->Slam->Whirlwind->White Attack->Slam->Mortal Strike->White Attack->Slam->Hamstring/Shout
Make sure that the global cool down is free after after a white attack, so you can cast slam freely. "Spam Slam" is not an efficient form of dps. The 1.5 second global cool down means you can only get around 2-3 slams in place of white attacks. Heroic Strike won't be used much here because this rotation is very rage intensive.
Keep in mind that slam basically has a built in /stopcasting macro. You can watch your latency, and start you slam early. For example, if you have 200ms, you can start your slam .2 seconds before your auto attack lands.
If your hasted with something like heroism, or very high end gear, or you have a relatively fast two-hander, you may wish to drop Slam from your rotation. There is a point where cutting .5 seconds off your auto attack is a bigger loss in dps than you gain from the slam. This rotation is also impossible if you swing faster than 2.5 seconds. Again, you would want to cut slam out of your rotation if this occurs.
20%-0%
Continue the same rotation above. Execute spam is not very efficient with a two-hander. If you have heroism, or drink a haste pot, or something similar, than start spamming. Those buffs will make your weapon fast enough to not waste rage. You will still want to keep MS on cooldown if you have the rage. Alternatively, you can equip a couple fast one-handers. If you have around 9% hit, than this can be effective. However, if you have low hit like many MS warriors, you may miss too much to get off consistent executes.
Useful References
Slam Guide Thanks Turpin
Catalog of Theorycraft
DPS Spreadsheet
The Hit Table and Itemization
To the best of our knowledge, warrior attacks are based upon a roll table. This may not be the exact way Blizzard’s system does it, but it has been confirmed by Blizzard to give the nearly the same results as their system. It works very simply. Every attack you deal and receive is based off a roll table similar to:
0-28: Miss
28-33.6: Dodge
33.6-58.6: Glancing
58.6-78.6: Crit
78.6-100: Hit
This table is assuming you have no +hit gear and 20% crit, and you are fighting a normal level 73 boss. Say you roll a 10, that would mean your next attack would be a miss.
It is important to note the change when you add, say, 1% hit. The table would now look like this:
0-27: Miss
27-32.6: Dodge
32.6-57.6: Glancing
57.6-77.6: Crit
77.6-100: Hit
While adding 1% hit obviously increased the hit on the table by 1%, it also reduced your miss rate by 1%. The same thing happens when you add crit; you gain 1% crit and lose 1% hit.
Note that this table is different for yellow attacks. Since yellow attacks only have a 9% miss rate and cannot glance, they have a correspondingly higher hit rate.
Crit Cap
As you might have noticed from reading above, there is a point on the table where you will have removed all hit from the table. At this point, adding more crit would be useless, since it would be ignored. This occurs at 42.4% crit for white attacks against a standard level 73 mob. You can, however, raise this cap by adding hit. Every 1% hit you add increases the crit cap by the same amount. Since there are no ways to reduce the dodge or glancing rates (except possibly weapon skill, who’s effects are still relatively unclear), there is a maximum amount of crit you can stack. This occurs for white attacks when you have capped your hit, which means the maximum useful amount of crit occurs at 69.4%. Note that yellow attacks have a much higher cap since they only have a 9% miss rate and they cannot glance.
“Perma Flurry”
This is a myth. Unless you have 100% crit, there will always be a chance that flurry can drop off. 33%, 30% or any similar numbers hold no special value.
Diminishing Returns on Crit
Deep Wounds- This debuff ticks every 3 seconds, but this counter is refreshed every time you crit. Therefore, as you gain more crit, this debuff will refresh more often, and tick less often.
Flurry- Imagine you have 1% crit. Every time you crit, you will most likely consume all three flurry charges afterwards. Now imagine you have 98% crit. If you added 1% more crit, the returns from flurry would be negligible. The chance of flurry falling off would be so low, that the 1% crit you just added would have almost no effect on your flurry uptime.
Hit vs. Crit
Hit and Crit both cause around the same increase in damage. 1% hit adds one attack in every hundred hits, and 1% crit doubles the damage of one hit in every hundred hits. Hit has the added value of triggering trinkets and procs, such as Dragonspine Trophy or Mongoose. It also causes more consistent rage generation, which is an underrated feature. Crit has the added value of triggering Deep Wounds and Flurry, as well as being modified by impale. Crit has a slight advantage, though they are pretty even overall. Thus, you can say that 1% hit is roughly equal to 1% crit.
However, hit caps complicate this. While white attacks cap out at 28% hit, yellow attacks cap out at only 9%. As you can probably realize, stacking hit past 9% will only effect your white damage. An average fury warrior’s white attacks usually make up around 50% of his overall dps. Thus, you can very roughly say that 1% crit is equal to 2% hit once you have over 9% hit.
Note that stacking hit past 9% is worthless for any build which uses a two-handed weapon.
“But you can’t crit if you don’t hit.”
Yes, you can. Adding hit does not increase your chance to crit (unless you have some sort of proc associated with hiting, such as a Dragonspine Trophy). The only exception to this is if you are at the crit cap, which has been explained above.
Crit vs. AP
This is a very tough comparison to make. Crit and AP scale inversely. As you gain more crit, AP becomes more valuable. As you gain more AP, crit becomes more valuable. Because of this, your personal gear, buffs, and group layout can have significant impact on the values of both stats.
The best way to determine which is better for you, is through actual dps testing during a raid. If you don’t wish to do that, you can also try using the spreadsheet.
In general, however:
AP is significantly better when self buffed.
AP is slightly better when raid buffed (no group buffs).
AP is slightly better if you are grouped with a feral druid.
Crit is slightly better if grouped with enhancement shaman and no feral druid.
Crit is superior in a Mortal Strike build, due to normalization.
Haste
At low levels, haste is very comparable to hit. Adding 1% haste will cause 1 extra attack in your next 100 attacks, similar to hit. For example:
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Originally Posted by Rezarel
Going from 0% haste to 1% haste takes a 4.00 weapon to 4.00 / 1.01 = 3.96.
Going from 98% to 99% takes you from 4.00 / 1.98 = 2.02 to 4.00 / 1.99 = 2.01. |
How to Itemize or “But don’t I need 200 Hit Rating?”
There are no magical numbers when it comes to warrior damage. Achieving say, 200 hit rating does not suddenly increase your dps. When deciding on an item to equip, just figure out which item will increase your dps by the largest amount. Don’t equip an item just to hit a certain value. In the end, your stats should even out due to blizzard’s itemization. Due not trust generic values such as “AP is worth 1 point, Crit 2 points, etc.” These values can change and vary significantly between players.
Specific Gear
Trinkets
[Madness of the Betrayer] Rumored to have a 2.4ppm proc. This would give it a static value of -120 armor.
[(-300armor*10seconds*2.4ppm)/60seconds]
[Tsunami Talisman] Rumored to have a .9 ppm proc. This would give it a static 51 attack power.
[(340ap*10seconds*.9ppm)/60seconds]
[Dragonspine Trophy] Rumored to have a 1.5 ppm proc. This would give it a static 81 haste rating.
[(325haste*10seconds*1.5ppm)/60seconds]
[Bloodlust Brooch] The “use” function will add 46 attack power if triggered on every cool down.
[(278ap*20seconds)/120seconds]
[Hourglass of the Unraveller] Rumored to have a .9 ppm proc. This would give it a static 45 attack power.
[(300ap*10seconds*.9ppm)/60seconds]
[Abacus of Violent Odds] The “use” function will add 21 haste rating if triggered on every cool down.
[(260haste*10seconds)/120seconds]
Slow MH vs. Fast MH
Slow MH- Larger Whirlwinds, More rage efficient Cleaves
Fast MH- More Heroics Strikes and Cleaves
The slower the MH, the better. However, DPS is still king. If there is a significant difference in DPS, a fast MH may be used. In this situation, you may want to prioritize heroic strike over whirlwind.
Slow OH vs. Fast OH
There is very little difference between the two. The weapon with the highest DPS/stats will win. However, a fast OH is usually preferred since it provides more consistent rage generation.
Talents, Specs, and Abilities
The cookie cutter build is 17/44, laid out like: Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft
Improved Whirlwind
Improved Whirlwind will provide the smallest DPS improvement among talents, which is why there is usually only 1 point put into it. Some people choose to take piercing howl instead of this talent.
There is another advantage to putting one point in improved whirlwind. It causes your whirlwind and bloodthirst cool downs to line up exactly. For example:
0- Bloodthirst
1.5-Whirlwind
6-Bloodthirst
10.5-Whirlwind
12-Bloodthirst
18-Bloodthirst
19.5-Whirlwind
Etc.
Heroic Strike
Keep in mind that this ability costs extra rage. It costs the 15 rage to cast, plus the rage that would have been generated if it were a white hit. Also keep in mind that this is a yellow attack, which means it only has a miss rate of 9% and can't glance.
Slam
Slam's main draw is the fact the it is not normalized. It's damage is calculated using this formula:
Damage=Base Weapon Damage + (Weapon Speed * Attack Power / 14)
Normalized abilities, such as whirlwind and mortal strike, are calculated using this formula:
Damage=Base Weapon Damage + (X* Attack Power / 14)
X is a constant, it does not vary upon your weapon's speed. When you are using a two-hander, this value will be 3.3. When using a one-hander, it is 2.4. For a dagger, it is 1.7.
The extra damage really becomes obvious with very slow weapons. Take for example, a [Stormherald] on a player with 3500 AP.
Slam=579 + (3.8*3500/14)=1524 + 140=1664
Mortal Strike=579 + (3.3*3500/14)=1404 + 210=1614
As you can see, Slam can actually hit harder than MS. It also costs half the rage. The only downfall is that it resets the swing timer. Improved Slam has a casting time of .5 seconds, so if it is used immediately after a white hit, you should only lose .5 seconds + your latency off your swing.
Note that a slower weapon will not greatly increase damage over time. As long as your weapon + buffs stay at less than 2.5 speed (so you can complete the rotation), the extra instant attack damage will be mostly made up by a faster swing time.
Threat
Battle Stance and Berzerker Stance have a passive -20% threat generation mechanic. This combined with salvation (-30%) will usually let you go all out. If you are still having trouble, you can do a number of things:
- Use [Prism of Inner Calm]. This reduces your threat by around 10%.
- Get soulstoned, and die to wipe your agro.
- Limit your heroic strikes.
“Couldn’t I replace Heroic Strikes with Cleaves to do less threat?”
Yes, this is an option. Cleave does actually do more threat per bonus damage. However, the total threat added is lower than heroic strike. Because of this, you can do it more frequently and take advantage of the benefits from impale and and yellow damage.
Rotations
Dual Wield Fury
100%-20%
In this range, always ensure that you have rage (and that you abilities aren’t on the global cool down) to use Bloodthirst every time it comes off cool down. Whirlwind is your next priority, keep it on cool down, but Bloodthirst has priority if they both come off cool down at the same time. Keep rampage up when Bloodthirst and Whirlwind are on global cool down. If you have extra rage after that, spend it on heroic strikes. Additionally, if you extra rage after using heroic strike on every auto attack, you can throw in some hamstrings between Bloodthirsts and Whirlwinds.
20%-0%
Execute. Don’t save a full rage bar for this phase. If you do go into it with a full rage bar, Bloodthirst than start executing. The key to maximizing dps in this phase is to ensure that you can execute on every global cool down. Equipping a fast MH usually helps to do this, by smoothing out your rage generation. Something like [King's Defender] works well. Also, if you have more than 2989AP, Bloodthirst is more efficient than execute.
(30 Rage Execute=1245 Damage; 2989AP Bloodthirst=1245 Damage Thanks Zoroaster)
Mortal Strike/Improved Slam Build
100%-20%
In order to get the most out of your slams, you will want to time them to hit immediately after a swing. To do this efficiently, you will want a swing timer. I recommend using either Swinger or Quartz.
You will than have a rotation like this:
White Attack->Slam->Mortal Strike->White Attack->Slam->Whirlwind->White Attack->Slam->Mortal Strike->White Attack->Slam->Hamstring/Shout
Make sure that the global cool down is free after after a white attack, so you can cast slam freely. "Spam Slam" is not an efficient form of dps. The 1.5 second global cool down means you can only get around 2-3 slams in place of white attacks. Heroic Strike won't be used much here because this rotation is very rage intensive.
Keep in mind that slam basically has a built in /stopcasting macro. You can watch your latency, and start you slam early. For example, if you have 200ms, you can start your slam .2 seconds before your auto attack lands.
If your hasted with something like heroism, or very high end gear, or you have a relatively fast two-hander, you may wish to drop Slam from your rotation. There is a point where cutting .5 seconds off your auto attack is a bigger loss in dps than you gain from the slam. This rotation is also impossible if you swing faster than 2.5 seconds. Again, you would want to cut slam out of your rotation if this occurs.
20%-0%
Continue the same rotation above. Execute spam is not very efficient with a two-hander. If you have heroism, or drink a haste pot, or something similar, than start spamming. Those buffs will make your weapon fast enough to not waste rage. You will still want to keep MS on cooldown if you have the rage. Alternatively, you can equip a couple fast one-handers. If you have around 9% hit, than this can be effective. However, if you have low hit like many MS warriors, you may miss too much to get off consistent executes.
Useful References
Slam Guide Thanks Turpin
Catalog of Theorycraft
DPS Spreadsheet
Last edited by Tiburon11 : 10/10/07 at 8:48 PM. Reason: Corrections
excellent post
the use of Bloodlust Brooch gives 278 AP, giving a static 46.33... AP
the use of Bloodlust Brooch gives 278 AP, giving a static 46.33... AP
Thankyou Tiburon.
We have had many discussions amongst our DPS Warriors and other Melee classes on the relative value of +hit and +crit. Your post has just alleviated me several hours of headaches.
We have had many discussions amongst our DPS Warriors and other Melee classes on the relative value of +hit and +crit. Your post has just alleviated me several hours of headaches.
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Originally Posted by gemmanite
excellent post
the use of Bloodlust Brooch gives 278 AP, giving a static 46.33... AP |
Great post Tib.
and yeah, the brooch is 278 AP on use, not 260, 46.33 would be the correct amount.
and yeah, the brooch is 278 AP on use, not 260, 46.33 would be the correct amount.
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Originally Posted by Tiburon11
Haste
At low levels, haste is very comparable to hit. Adding 1% haste will cause 1 extra attack in your next 100 attacks, similar to hit. However, haste scales much better than hit. Imagine you have a 4.00 speed weapon. You add 1% haste, reducing the weapon speed by .04 seconds down to 3.96. Now imagine you have a weapon already hasted by 98%. You now have a swing timer of .08 seconds. You than add 1% haste, reducing the speed by another .04 seconds and bringing your total haste to 99%. However, as you can probably tell, reducing your swing speed from .08 seconds to .04 seconds causes a significantly larger impact than reducing your swing speed from 4.00 to 3.96 does. In this first situation you are increasing the number of swings you get over a minute by 1%, but in the second example you are increasing that value by 200%. |
Going from 0% haste to 1% haste takes a 4.00 weapon to 4.00 / 1.01 = 3.96.
Going from 98% to 99% takes you from 4.00 / 1.98 = 2.02 to 4.00 / 1.99 = 2.01.
Nice post, otherwise.
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Originally Posted by Tiburon11
“Couldn’t I replace Heroic Strikes with Cleaves to do less threat?”
No, Cleave does more threat per damage. Heroic Strike does 176 damage and 196 threat, while cleave does 70 extra damage and 130 threat. As you can see, Heroic Strike does .9 damage per threat, while cleave does .54 damage per threat. You will do more damage by using less heroics strikes than you will by switching to cleave. |
Both heroic strike and cleave add bonuses BEYOND their +damage because they make a white attack a special attack. This adds the following bonuses:
1) Cannot glance
2) Increased chance to hit
3) +10% damage on crits
For example, let's say that "removing glancing blows, reducing chance to miss, and +crit" increases the expected damage of an attack by 200.
This changes your calculation as follows:
Heroic strike adds 176 damage (+200 for hit/glance) for 196 threat. 1.92 damage/threat
Cleave adds 70 damage (+200 for hit/glance) for 130 bonus threat. 2.07 damage/threat
Here, cleave is the victor. If you can calculate the value of these other bonuses (no glance, +hit, +10% crit damage), THEN you can calculate what is better damage per threat.
Nice Writeup Tib
I believe the hit cap for yellow hits and 2 handed whites is 8.64%
Regarding slam and normalizaion, Ceasar has a nice write up arguing that weapon speed is not a factor for slam on page 3 here:
http://www.honorbound.se/Slamdps2.pdf
I believe the hit cap for yellow hits and 2 handed whites is 8.64%
Regarding slam and normalizaion, Ceasar has a nice write up arguing that weapon speed is not a factor for slam on page 3 here:
http://www.honorbound.se/Slamdps2.pdf
Overall very good post. Definitely would help cut down on some of the more commonly asked questions. Couple things that I noticed while reading through your post that I've quoted and commented on below. Not trying to bash on the hard work you put into this though, very nicely done.
"Since yellow attacks only have a 9% miss rate, they have a correspondingly higher hit rate."
Yellow attacks also cannot glance, increasing the crit cap by 25%
"Thus, you can roughly say that 1% hit is equal to 2% crit once you have over 9%."
Shouldn't it be reversed? 1% crit is equal to 2% hit once your yellow attacks are capped? Of course it isn't quite this easy with rage generation and all, but I know the point you are trying to make.
"X is a constant, it does not vary upon your weapon's speed. When you are using a two-hander, this value will be 3.3. When using a one-hander, it is 2.4."
Daggers have a 1.7 speed for normalized attacks, really is noticeable with WW/Overpower.
"Execute. Don’t save a full rage bar for this phase. If you do go into it with a full rage bar, Bloodthirst than start executing. The key to maximizing dps in this phase is to ensure that you can execute on every global cool down. Equipping a fast MH usually helps to do this, by smoothing out your rage generation."
With Hyjal/BT gear I believe Bloodthirst is actually more rage efficent then execute if you have 30 rage. So during execute phase if you get a couple crits while global CD is up and you have 30 rage, don't use it on excute, BT instead. (Can someone else verify this? I have seen a number of comments about it in the past and the napkin math I did seemed to confirm.)
" White Attack->Slam->Mortal Strike->White Attack->Slam->Whirlwind->White Attack->Slam->Hamstring/Shout"
The best rotation in my experience is actually, white - slam - MS - white - slam - WW - white - slam - MS - white - slam - shout/hamstring. Basically a 4 slam rotation, since WW has such a long cooldown.
"Since yellow attacks only have a 9% miss rate, they have a correspondingly higher hit rate."
Yellow attacks also cannot glance, increasing the crit cap by 25%
"Thus, you can roughly say that 1% hit is equal to 2% crit once you have over 9%."
Shouldn't it be reversed? 1% crit is equal to 2% hit once your yellow attacks are capped? Of course it isn't quite this easy with rage generation and all, but I know the point you are trying to make.
"X is a constant, it does not vary upon your weapon's speed. When you are using a two-hander, this value will be 3.3. When using a one-hander, it is 2.4."
Daggers have a 1.7 speed for normalized attacks, really is noticeable with WW/Overpower.
"Execute. Don’t save a full rage bar for this phase. If you do go into it with a full rage bar, Bloodthirst than start executing. The key to maximizing dps in this phase is to ensure that you can execute on every global cool down. Equipping a fast MH usually helps to do this, by smoothing out your rage generation."
With Hyjal/BT gear I believe Bloodthirst is actually more rage efficent then execute if you have 30 rage. So during execute phase if you get a couple crits while global CD is up and you have 30 rage, don't use it on excute, BT instead. (Can someone else verify this? I have seen a number of comments about it in the past and the napkin math I did seemed to confirm.)
" White Attack->Slam->Mortal Strike->White Attack->Slam->Whirlwind->White Attack->Slam->Hamstring/Shout"
The best rotation in my experience is actually, white - slam - MS - white - slam - WW - white - slam - MS - white - slam - shout/hamstring. Basically a 4 slam rotation, since WW has such a long cooldown.
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Originally Posted by Turpin
Nice Writeup Tib
I believe the hit cap for yellow hits and 2 handed whites is 8.64% Regarding slam and normalizaion, Ceasar has a nice write up arguing that weapon speed is not a factor for slam on page 3 here: http://www.honorbound.se/Slamdps2.pdf |
I think you are misreading his post, or you mean something different. He states that you do not want a 2h faster then 2.5 seconds post flurry/haste, and a bit slower would be preferred since 2.5 speed requires very precise timing of your slams/instants.
Edited onPatch 2.2.0
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Originally Posted by Turpin
I believe the hit cap for yellow hits and 2 handed whites is 8.64%
Regarding slam and normalizaion, Ceasar has a nice write up arguing that weapon speed is not a factor for slam on page 3 here: http://www.honorbound.se/Slamdps2.pdf |
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Originally Posted by Zoroaster
"Since yellow attacks only have a 9% miss rate, they have a correspondingly higher hit rate."
Yellow attacks also cannot glance, increasing the crit cap by 25% |
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Originally Posted by Zoroaster
"Thus, you can roughly say that 1% hit is equal to 2% crit once you have over 9%."
Shouldn't it be reversed? 1% crit is equal to 2% hit once your yellow attacks are capped? Of course it isn't quite this easy with rage generation and all, but I know the point you are trying to make. |
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Originally Posted by Zoroaster
"X is a constant, it does not vary upon your weapon's speed. When you are using a two-hander, this value will be 3.3. When using a one-hander, it is 2.4."
Daggers have a 1.7 speed for normalized attacks, really is noticeable with WW/Overpower. |
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Originally Posted by Zoroaster
"Execute. Don’t save a full rage bar for this phase. If you do go into it with a full rage bar, Bloodthirst than start executing. The key to maximizing dps in this phase is to ensure that you can execute on every global cool down. Equipping a fast MH usually helps to do this, by smoothing out your rage generation."
With Hyjal/BT gear I believe Bloodthirst is actually more rage efficent then execute if you have 30 rage. So during execute phase if you get a couple crits while global CD is up and you have 30 rage, don't use it on excute, BT instead. (Can someone else verify this? I have seen a number of comments about it in the past and the napkin math I did seemed to confirm.)' |
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Originally Posted by Zoroaster
" White Attack->Slam->Mortal Strike->White Attack->Slam->Whirlwind->White Attack->Slam->Hamstring/Shout"
The best rotation in my experience is actually, white - slam - MS - white - slam - WW - white - slam - MS - white - slam - shout/hamstring. Basically a 4 slam rotation, since WW has such a long cooldown. |
Last edited by Tiburon11 : 09/25/07 at 3:04 AM.
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Originally Posted by Zoroaster
I think you are misreading his post, or you mean something different. He states that you do not want a 2h faster then 2.5 seconds post flurry/haste, and a bit slower would be preferred since 2.5 speed requires very precise timing of your slams/instants.
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Originally Posted by Turpin
top of pg 4 he says "as we can see slow weapon=more damage is a myth". his argument for it is before this.
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When you are in the 3.5-3.8 speed range it's not a big difference. However faster then 2.5 (post flurry/haste of course) will hurt your DPS. Granted, there aren't very many 2h weapons that are faster then 3.5, also with the somewhat limited choices in end-game 2h's most people take whatever drops first.
Ok, here is the math for execute vs BT when you have 30 rage. This assumes you have 2/2 imp execute.
30 rage execute does 1345 damage
Bloodthirst does 1345 damage with 2,989AP.
So if you have 2,989AP or higher it's better to BT then execute with 30 rage, the higher your AP the bigger the difference. When I was 17/44 what I just did was hit BT then execute, if you don't have rage for BT then no wasted global CD and you execute.
Commonly accepted fact is that 15 rage executes are your best damage per rage. However once you hit 4573 AP, BT is more rage efficient. Now this requires very good gear, but I'm sure people with mostly Hyjal/BT gear are either at this point already, or nearing it. I know I was often around 4000 AP as 17/44, this was with 2 pieces of tier 6 loot, the haste ring off trash and a Swiftsteel mace.
30 rage execute does 1345 damage
Bloodthirst does 1345 damage with 2,989AP.
So if you have 2,989AP or higher it's better to BT then execute with 30 rage, the higher your AP the bigger the difference. When I was 17/44 what I just did was hit BT then execute, if you don't have rage for BT then no wasted global CD and you execute.
Commonly accepted fact is that 15 rage executes are your best damage per rage. However once you hit 4573 AP, BT is more rage efficient. Now this requires very good gear, but I'm sure people with mostly Hyjal/BT gear are either at this point already, or nearing it. I know I was often around 4000 AP as 17/44, this was with 2 pieces of tier 6 loot, the haste ring off trash and a Swiftsteel mace.
Edited onPatch 2.2.0
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Originally Posted by Natural
Very nice post, however, you should read some of the earlier discussion about cleave and heroic strike.
Both heroic strike and cleave add bonuses BEYOND their +damage because they make a white attack a special attack. This adds the following bonuses: 1) Cannot glance 2) Increased chance to hit 3) +10% damage on crits For example, let's say that "removing glancing blows, reducing chance to miss, and +crit" increases the expected damage of an attack by 200. This changes your calculation as follows: Heroic strike adds 176 damage (+200 for hit/glance) for 196 threat. 1.92 damage/threat Cleave adds 70 damage (+200 for hit/glance) for 130 bonus threat. 2.07 damage/threat Here, cleave is the victor. If you can calculate the value of these other bonuses (no glance, +hit, +10% crit damage), THEN you can calculate what is better damage per threat. |
If you include 130 swing damage you get damage/threat values like this:
HS: damage/threat = 306/(306+196) = 0.610
Cleave: 200/(200+130) = 0.606
[top]> i.e. HS is better than Cleave
If you assume a 150 swing damage:
HS: damage/threat
326/(326+196) = 0.624
Cleave: 220/(220+130) = 0.629
=> Cleave is better.
Not sure I went wrong somewhere, but this is actually quite interesting, I never thought that including the swing damage could make such a difference.
edit: this is just wrong, read the later posts by Natural. It turns out that the turnover point in efficiency for HS/Cleave comes at the same value of extra damage (due to 9 %miss and no glances) regardless of if you model the efficiency as extra damage/bonus threat or as extra damage /(extra damage*mod + bonus therat)
Last edited by Gruntle : 09/29/07 at 6:39 AM.
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Originally Posted by Tiburon11
How to Itemize or “But don’t I need 200 Hit Rating?”
There are no magical numbers when it comes to warrior damage. Achieving say, 200 hit rating does not suddenly increase your dps. When deciding on an item to equip, just figure out which item will increase your dps by the largest amount. Don’t equip an item just to hit a certain value. In the end, your stats should even out due to blizzard’s itemization. Due not trust generic values such as “AP is worth 1 point, Crit 2 points, etc.” These values can change and vary significantly between players. |
I agree with the 200 hit rating statement of course but using static values for the worth of different stats is very well supported by theorycrafting (in the spreadsheet). Once you have reached 9% +hit the relative value of the different stats stay pretty constant (at least they don't switch places) for a specific build. For DW fury the order (after 9% hit): 1 haste ~> 1 str/0.5 AP > 1 crit rating > 1 hit rating, is supported by the spreadsheets for all gear setups I've tried. Maybe the spreadsheets do not mirror "reality", but if you trust the theorycrafting then this seems to be how it works.
About the 9% miss chance. A lot of testing in the weapon skill thread showed that the base miss chance is 9% (with a very small margin of error) vs 73 mobs, without any weapon skill. It might be interesting to include a section on weapon skill in this guide. Check that thread for the results (one result is that the first 5 weapon skill gives you 3% hit).
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Originally Posted by Gruntle
It might be interesting to include a section on weapon skill in this guide. Check that thread for the results (one result is that the first 5 weapon skill gives you 3% hit).
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Edited onPatch 2.1.3
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Originally Posted by dr_AllCOM3
Oh, nice. We have a volunteer for adding all the items. Just tell me when you're finished.
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Last edited by Graul : 09/23/07 at 5:32 AM.
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Originally Posted by p o j
I think it might prove useful for a highly experienced and knowledgeable [fury] warrior to start up a thread akin to Malan's Enhancement Shaman thread (viewed here).
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I'm an idiot, ignore this post. Preferably somebody delete it...
I have a question about Warrior DPS.
I heard that 17/44/0 is the best Fury spec to go with and I'm wondering if someone can link me a Wowhead build or something around that. I'm also wondering how I should work my rotation to best output my DPS as DW Fury 17/44/0.
Thank you,
Sinnermighty
I heard that 17/44/0 is the best Fury spec to go with and I'm wondering if someone can link me a Wowhead build or something around that. I'm also wondering how I should work my rotation to best output my DPS as DW Fury 17/44/0.
Thank you,
Sinnermighty
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Originally Posted by Sinnermighty
I have a question about Warrior DPS.
I heard that 17/44/0 is the best Fury spec to go with and I'm wondering if someone can link me a Wowhead build or something around that. I'm also wondering how I should work my rotation to best output my DPS as DW Fury 17/44/0. Thank you, Sinnermighty |
Have been using this build for quite some time now and find it to be a very good build for fury dps.
Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft
Some talents were taken for tanking/Support, Something you often do as a dps warrior and no other talents for example in the arms tree are worthwhile taking for fury dps.
Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft
Some talents were taken for tanking/Support, Something you often do as a dps warrior and no other talents for example in the arms tree are worthwhile taking for fury dps.
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Originally Posted by Tiburon11
I wouldn't mind doing this. It would be a good way to "refresh" my warrior knowledge. Unless someone else has started it, I'm going to give it a try.
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Topics I've always wanted to see proved/ disproved/ gone into detail:
- More hit doesn't mean more chances to crit
- x% crit is needed to keep flurry active for y% of combat (Try as I might to come up with a formula for this, I fail. Seeking ex-professor's help)
- What is 'crit cap' and how does it apply?
- All things considered, how much AP is equal to 1% crit (with regards to dps gain assuming law of averages)?
- Specific interactions with WF and the enhancement shaman (our most potent "buff")
Hopefully, should such a thread get started, the typical 'Here is my armory- tell me what I need to change' posts would be discouraged.
So I've given up on trying to use ODE's, but instead made 2 different (and very simple) calculations concerning flurry.
z_3, z_2 = chance to not crit (%)
x = crit chance (%)
y = hit chance (assuming 100 - x = y) (%)
Autoattack (3 before flurry expires after activation):
x_3 ~> y^3 = z_3
Instants (assuming 2 hits inside the 3 auto-attack window- 2 chances to reapply flurry):
x_2 ~> y^2 = z_2
Now, how to relate the following senarios:
x_3 series crits, x_2 series crits
x_3 series hits, x_2 series hits
x_3 series crits, x_2 series crits
x_3 series hits, x_2 series crits
z_3, z_2 = chance to not crit (%)
x = crit chance (%)
y = hit chance (assuming 100 - x = y) (%)
Autoattack (3 before flurry expires after activation):
x_3 ~> y^3 = z_3
Instants (assuming 2 hits inside the 3 auto-attack window- 2 chances to reapply flurry):
x_2 ~> y^2 = z_2
Now, how to relate the following senarios:
x_3 series crits, x_2 series crits
x_3 series hits, x_2 series hits
x_3 series crits, x_2 series crits
x_3 series hits, x_2 series crits
Edited onPatch 2.2.3
DPS Warrior FAQ
I had some time to work on it today, so here's what I've written. There are still a lot of things left to do, such as add meta gems and armor penetration. Most of this stuff is off the top of my head, so a lot isn't backed by math. I'd also like to know if this looks like it has potential, or if it's more annoying spam. Any suggestions would be nice. And definitely point out any errors I may have made.
The Hit Table and Itemization
To the best of our knowledge, warrior attacks are based upon a roll table. This may not be the exact way Blizzard’s system does it, but it has been confirmed by Blizzard to give the nearly the same results as their system. It works very simply. Every attack you deal and receive is based off a roll table similar to:
0-28: Miss
28-33.6: Dodge
33.6-58.6: Glancing
58.6-78.6: Crit
78.6-100: Hit
This table is assuming you have no +hit gear and 20% crit, and you are fighting a normal level 73 boss. Say you roll a 10, that would mean your next attack would be a miss.
It is important to note the change when you add, say, 1% hit. The table would now look like this:
0-27: Miss
27-32.6: Dodge
32.6-57.6: Glancing
57.6-77.6: Crit
77.6-100: Hit
While adding 1% hit obviously increased the hit on the table by 1%, it also reduced your miss rate by 1%. The same thing happens when you add crit; you gain 1% crit and lose 1% hit.
Note that this table is different for yellow attacks. Since yellow attacks only have a 9% miss rate and cannot glance, they have a correspondingly higher hit rate.
Crit Cap
As you might have noticed from reading above, there is a point on the table where you will have removed all hit from the table. At this point, adding more crit would be useless, since it would be ignored. This occurs at 42.4% crit for white attacks against a standard level 73 mob. You can, however, raise this cap by adding hit. Every 1% hit you add increases the crit cap by the same amount. Since there are no ways to reduce the dodge or glancing rates (except possibly weapon skill, who’s effects are still relatively unclear), there is a maximum amount of crit you can stack. This occurs for white attacks when you have capped your hit, which means the maximum useful amount of crit occurs at 69.4%. Note that yellow attacks have a much higher cap since they only have a 9% miss rate and they cannot glance.
“Perma Flurry”
This is a myth. Unless you have 100% crit, there will always be a chance that flurry can drop off. 33%, 30% or any similar numbers hold no special value.
Diminishing Returns on Crit
Deep Wounds- This debuff ticks every 3 seconds, but this counter is refreshed every time you crit. Therefore, as you gain more crit, this debuff will refresh more often, and tick less often.
Flurry- Imagine you have 1% crit. Every time you crit, you will most likely consume all three flurry charges afterwards. Now imagine you have 98% crit. If you added 1% more crit, the returns from flurry would be negligible. The chance of flurry falling off would be so low, that the 1% crit you just added would have almost no effect on your flurry uptime.
Hit vs. Crit
Hit and Crit both cause around the same increase in damage. 1% hit adds one attack in every hundred hits, and 1% crit doubles the damage of one hit in every hundred hits. Hit has the added value of triggering trinkets and procs, such as Dragonspine Trophy or Mongoose. It also causes more consistent rage generation, which is an underrated feature. Crit has the added value of triggering Deep Wounds and Flurry, as well as being modified by impale. Crit has a slight advantage, though they are pretty even overall. Thus, you can say that 1% hit is roughly equal to 1% crit.
However, hit caps complicate this. While white attacks cap out at 28% hit, yellow attacks cap out at only 9%. As you can probably realize, stacking hit past 9% will only effect your white damage. An average fury warrior’s white attacks usually make up around 50% of his overall dps. Thus, you can very roughly say that 1% crit is equal to 2% hit once you have over 9% hit.
Note that stacking hit past 9% is worthless for any build which uses a two-handed weapon.
“But you can’t crit if you don’t hit.”
Yes, you can. Adding hit does not increase your chance to crit (unless you have some sort of proc associated with hiting, such as a Dragonspine Trophy). The only exception to this is if you are at the crit cap, which has been explained above.
Crit vs. AP
This is a very tough comparison to make. Crit and AP scale inversely. As you gain more crit, AP becomes more valuable. As you gain more AP, crit becomes more valuable. Because of this, your personal gear, buffs, and group layout can have significant impact on the values of both stats.
The best way to determine which is better for you, is through actual dps testing during a raid. If you don’t wish to do that, you can also try using the spreadsheet.
In general, however:
AP is significantly better when self buffed.
AP is slightly better when raid buffed (no group buffs).
AP is slightly better if you are grouped with a feral druid.
Crit is slightly better if grouped with enhancement shaman and no feral druid.
Crit is superior in a Mortal Strike build, due to normalization.
Haste
At low levels, haste is very comparable to hit. Adding 1% haste will cause 1 extra attack in your next 100 attacks, similar to hit. For example:
How to Itemize or “But don’t I need 200 Hit Rating?”
There are no magical numbers when it comes to warrior damage. Achieving say, 200 hit rating does not suddenly increase your dps. When deciding on an item to equip, just figure out which item will increase your dps by the largest amount. Don’t equip an item just to hit a certain value. In the end, your stats should even out due to blizzard’s itemization. Due not trust generic values such as “AP is worth 1 point, Crit 2 points, etc.” These values can change and vary significantly between players.
Specific Gear
Trinkets
[Madness of the Betrayer] Rumored to have a 2.4ppm proc. This would give it a static value of -120 armor.
[(-300armor*10seconds*2.4ppm)/60seconds]
[Tsunami Talisman] Rumored to have a .9 ppm proc. This would give it a static 51 attack power.
[(340ap*10seconds*.9ppm)/60seconds]
[Dragonspine Trophy] Rumored to have a 1.5 ppm proc. This would give it a static 81 haste rating.
[(325haste*10seconds*1.5ppm)/60seconds]
[Bloodlust Brooch] The “use” function will add 46 attack power if triggered on every cool down.
[(278ap*20seconds)/120seconds]
[Hourglass of the Unraveller] Rumored to have a .9 ppm proc. This would give it a static 45 attack power.
[(300ap*10seconds*.9ppm)/60seconds]
[Abacus of Violent Odds] The “use” function will add 21 haste rating if triggered on every cool down.
[(260haste*10seconds)/120seconds]
Slow MH vs. Fast MH
Slow MH- Larger Whirlwinds, More rage efficient Cleaves
Fast MH- More Heroics Strikes and Cleaves
The slower the MH, the better. However, DPS is still king. If there is a significant difference in DPS, a fast MH may be used. In this situation, you may want to prioritize heroic strike over whirlwind.
Slow OH vs. Fast OH
There is very little difference between the two. The weapon with the highest DPS/stats will win. However, a fast OH is usually preferred since it provides more consistent rage generation.
Talents, Specs, and Abilities
The cookie cutter build is 17/44, laid out like: Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft
Improved Whirlwind
Improved Whirlwind will provide the smallest DPS improvement among talents, which is why there is usually only 1 point put into it. Some people choose to take piercing howl instead of this talent.
There is another advantage to putting one point in improved whirlwind. It causes your whirlwind and bloodthirst cool downs to line up exactly. For example:
0- Bloodthirst
1.5-Whirlwind
6-Bloodthirst
10.5-Whirlwind
12-Bloodthirst
18-Bloodthirst
19.5-Whirlwind
Etc.
Heroic Strike
Keep in mind that this ability costs extra rage. It costs the 15 rage to cast, plus the rage that would have been generated if it were a white hit. Also keep in mind that this is a yellow attack, which means it only has a miss rate of 9% and can't glance.
Slam
Slam's main draw is the fact the it is not normalized. It's damage is calculated using this formula:
Damage=Base Weapon Damage + (Weapon Speed * Attack Power / 14)
Normalized abilities, such as whirlwind and mortal strike, are calculated using this formula:
Damage=Base Weapon Damage + (X* Attack Power / 14)
X is a constant, it does not vary upon your weapon's speed. When you are using a two-hander, this value will be 3.3. When using a one-hander, it is 2.4. For a dagger, it is 1.7.
The extra damage really becomes obvious with very slow weapons. Take for example, a [Stormherald] on a player with 3500 AP.
Slam=579 + (3.8*3500/14)=1524 + 140=1664
Mortal Strike=579 + (3.3*3500/14)=1404 + 210=1614
As you can see, Slam can actually hit harder than MS. It also costs half the rage. The only downfall is that it resets the swing timer. Improved Slam has a casting time of .5 seconds, so if it is used immediately after a white hit, you should only lose .5 seconds + your latency off your swing.
Note that a slower weapon will not greatly increase damage over time. As long as your weapon + buffs stay at less than 2.5 speed (so you can complete the rotation), the extra instant attack damage will be mostly made up by a faster swing time.
Threat
Battle Stance and Berzerker Stance have a passive -20% threat generation mechanic. This combined with salvation (-30%) will usually let you go all out. If you are still having trouble, you can do a number of things:
- Use [Prism of Inner Calm]. This reduces your threat by around 10%.
- Get soulstoned, and die to wipe your agro.
- Limit your heroic strikes.
“Couldn’t I replace Heroic Strikes with Cleaves to do less threat?”
Yes, this is an option. Cleave does actually do more threat per bonus damage. However, the total threat added is lower than heroic strike. Because of this, you can do it more frequently and take advantage of the benefits from impale and and yellow damage.
Rotations
Dual Wield Fury
100%-20%
In this range, always ensure that you have rage (and that you abilities aren’t on the global cool down) to use Bloodthirst every time it comes off cool down. Whirlwind is your next priority, keep it on cool down, but Bloodthirst has priority if they both come off cool down at the same time. Keep rampage up when Bloodthirst and Whirlwind are on global cool down. If you have extra rage after that, spend it on heroic strikes. Additionally, if you extra rage after using heroic strike on every auto attack, you can throw in some hamstrings between Bloodthirsts and Whirlwinds.
20%-0%
Execute. Don’t save a full rage bar for this phase. If you do go into it with a full rage bar, Bloodthirst than start executing. The key to maximizing dps in this phase is to ensure that you can execute on every global cool down. Equipping a fast MH usually helps to do this, by smoothing out your rage generation. Something like [King's Defender] works well. Also, if you have more than 2989AP, Bloodthirst is more efficient than execute.
(30 Rage Execute=1245 Damage; 2989AP Bloodthirst=1245 Damage Thanks Zoroaster)
Mortal Strike/Improved Slam Build
100%-20%
In order to get the most out of your slams, you will want to time them to hit immediately after a swing. To do this efficiently, you will want a swing timer. I recommend using either Swinger or Quartz.
You will than have a rotation like this:
White Attack->Slam->Mortal Strike->White Attack->Slam->Whirlwind->White Attack->Slam->Mortal Strike->White Attack->Slam->Hamstring/Shout
Make sure that the global cool down is free after after a white attack, so you can cast slam freely. "Spam Slam" is not an efficient form of dps. The 1.5 second global cool down means you can only get around 2-3 slams in place of white attacks. Heroic Strike won't be used much here because this rotation is very rage intensive.
Keep in mind that slam basically has a built in /stopcasting macro. You can watch your latency, and start you slam early. For example, if you have 200ms, you can start your slam .2 seconds before your auto attack lands.
If your hasted with something like heroism, or very high end gear, or you have a relatively fast two-hander, you may wish to drop Slam from your rotation. There is a point where cutting .5 seconds off your auto attack is a bigger loss in dps than you gain from the slam. This rotation is also impossible if you swing faster than 2.5 seconds. Again, you would want to cut slam out of your rotation if this occurs.
20%-0%
Continue the same rotation above. Execute spam is not very efficient with a two-hander. If you have heroism, or drink a haste pot, or something similar, than start spamming. Those buffs will make your weapon fast enough to not waste rage. You will still want to keep MS on cooldown if you have the rage. Alternatively, you can equip a couple fast one-handers. If you have around 9% hit, than this can be effective. However, if you have low hit like many MS warriors, you may miss too much to get off consistent executes.
Useful References
Slam Guide Thanks Turpin
Catalog of Theorycraft
DPS Spreadsheet
The Hit Table and Itemization
To the best of our knowledge, warrior attacks are based upon a roll table. This may not be the exact way Blizzard’s system does it, but it has been confirmed by Blizzard to give the nearly the same results as their system. It works very simply. Every attack you deal and receive is based off a roll table similar to:
0-28: Miss
28-33.6: Dodge
33.6-58.6: Glancing
58.6-78.6: Crit
78.6-100: Hit
This table is assuming you have no +hit gear and 20% crit, and you are fighting a normal level 73 boss. Say you roll a 10, that would mean your next attack would be a miss.
It is important to note the change when you add, say, 1% hit. The table would now look like this:
0-27: Miss
27-32.6: Dodge
32.6-57.6: Glancing
57.6-77.6: Crit
77.6-100: Hit
While adding 1% hit obviously increased the hit on the table by 1%, it also reduced your miss rate by 1%. The same thing happens when you add crit; you gain 1% crit and lose 1% hit.
Note that this table is different for yellow attacks. Since yellow attacks only have a 9% miss rate and cannot glance, they have a correspondingly higher hit rate.
Crit Cap
As you might have noticed from reading above, there is a point on the table where you will have removed all hit from the table. At this point, adding more crit would be useless, since it would be ignored. This occurs at 42.4% crit for white attacks against a standard level 73 mob. You can, however, raise this cap by adding hit. Every 1% hit you add increases the crit cap by the same amount. Since there are no ways to reduce the dodge or glancing rates (except possibly weapon skill, who’s effects are still relatively unclear), there is a maximum amount of crit you can stack. This occurs for white attacks when you have capped your hit, which means the maximum useful amount of crit occurs at 69.4%. Note that yellow attacks have a much higher cap since they only have a 9% miss rate and they cannot glance.
“Perma Flurry”
This is a myth. Unless you have 100% crit, there will always be a chance that flurry can drop off. 33%, 30% or any similar numbers hold no special value.
Diminishing Returns on Crit
Deep Wounds- This debuff ticks every 3 seconds, but this counter is refreshed every time you crit. Therefore, as you gain more crit, this debuff will refresh more often, and tick less often.
Flurry- Imagine you have 1% crit. Every time you crit, you will most likely consume all three flurry charges afterwards. Now imagine you have 98% crit. If you added 1% more crit, the returns from flurry would be negligible. The chance of flurry falling off would be so low, that the 1% crit you just added would have almost no effect on your flurry uptime.
Hit vs. Crit
Hit and Crit both cause around the same increase in damage. 1% hit adds one attack in every hundred hits, and 1% crit doubles the damage of one hit in every hundred hits. Hit has the added value of triggering trinkets and procs, such as Dragonspine Trophy or Mongoose. It also causes more consistent rage generation, which is an underrated feature. Crit has the added value of triggering Deep Wounds and Flurry, as well as being modified by impale. Crit has a slight advantage, though they are pretty even overall. Thus, you can say that 1% hit is roughly equal to 1% crit.
However, hit caps complicate this. While white attacks cap out at 28% hit, yellow attacks cap out at only 9%. As you can probably realize, stacking hit past 9% will only effect your white damage. An average fury warrior’s white attacks usually make up around 50% of his overall dps. Thus, you can very roughly say that 1% crit is equal to 2% hit once you have over 9% hit.
Note that stacking hit past 9% is worthless for any build which uses a two-handed weapon.
“But you can’t crit if you don’t hit.”
Yes, you can. Adding hit does not increase your chance to crit (unless you have some sort of proc associated with hiting, such as a Dragonspine Trophy). The only exception to this is if you are at the crit cap, which has been explained above.
Crit vs. AP
This is a very tough comparison to make. Crit and AP scale inversely. As you gain more crit, AP becomes more valuable. As you gain more AP, crit becomes more valuable. Because of this, your personal gear, buffs, and group layout can have significant impact on the values of both stats.
The best way to determine which is better for you, is through actual dps testing during a raid. If you don’t wish to do that, you can also try using the spreadsheet.
In general, however:
AP is significantly better when self buffed.
AP is slightly better when raid buffed (no group buffs).
AP is slightly better if you are grouped with a feral druid.
Crit is slightly better if grouped with enhancement shaman and no feral druid.
Crit is superior in a Mortal Strike build, due to normalization.
Haste
At low levels, haste is very comparable to hit. Adding 1% haste will cause 1 extra attack in your next 100 attacks, similar to hit. For example:
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Originally Posted by Rezarel
Going from 0% haste to 1% haste takes a 4.00 weapon to 4.00 / 1.01 = 3.96.
Going from 98% to 99% takes you from 4.00 / 1.98 = 2.02 to 4.00 / 1.99 = 2.01. |
How to Itemize or “But don’t I need 200 Hit Rating?”
There are no magical numbers when it comes to warrior damage. Achieving say, 200 hit rating does not suddenly increase your dps. When deciding on an item to equip, just figure out which item will increase your dps by the largest amount. Don’t equip an item just to hit a certain value. In the end, your stats should even out due to blizzard’s itemization. Due not trust generic values such as “AP is worth 1 point, Crit 2 points, etc.” These values can change and vary significantly between players.
Specific Gear
Trinkets
[Madness of the Betrayer] Rumored to have a 2.4ppm proc. This would give it a static value of -120 armor.
[(-300armor*10seconds*2.4ppm)/60seconds]
[Tsunami Talisman] Rumored to have a .9 ppm proc. This would give it a static 51 attack power.
[(340ap*10seconds*.9ppm)/60seconds]
[Dragonspine Trophy] Rumored to have a 1.5 ppm proc. This would give it a static 81 haste rating.
[(325haste*10seconds*1.5ppm)/60seconds]
[Bloodlust Brooch] The “use” function will add 46 attack power if triggered on every cool down.
[(278ap*20seconds)/120seconds]
[Hourglass of the Unraveller] Rumored to have a .9 ppm proc. This would give it a static 45 attack power.
[(300ap*10seconds*.9ppm)/60seconds]
[Abacus of Violent Odds] The “use” function will add 21 haste rating if triggered on every cool down.
[(260haste*10seconds)/120seconds]
Slow MH vs. Fast MH
Slow MH- Larger Whirlwinds, More rage efficient Cleaves
Fast MH- More Heroics Strikes and Cleaves
The slower the MH, the better. However, DPS is still king. If there is a significant difference in DPS, a fast MH may be used. In this situation, you may want to prioritize heroic strike over whirlwind.
Slow OH vs. Fast OH
There is very little difference between the two. The weapon with the highest DPS/stats will win. However, a fast OH is usually preferred since it provides more consistent rage generation.
Talents, Specs, and Abilities
The cookie cutter build is 17/44, laid out like: Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft
Improved Whirlwind
Improved Whirlwind will provide the smallest DPS improvement among talents, which is why there is usually only 1 point put into it. Some people choose to take piercing howl instead of this talent.
There is another advantage to putting one point in improved whirlwind. It causes your whirlwind and bloodthirst cool downs to line up exactly. For example:
0- Bloodthirst
1.5-Whirlwind
6-Bloodthirst
10.5-Whirlwind
12-Bloodthirst
18-Bloodthirst
19.5-Whirlwind
Etc.
Heroic Strike
Keep in mind that this ability costs extra rage. It costs the 15 rage to cast, plus the rage that would have been generated if it were a white hit. Also keep in mind that this is a yellow attack, which means it only has a miss rate of 9% and can't glance.
Slam
Slam's main draw is the fact the it is not normalized. It's damage is calculated using this formula:
Damage=Base Weapon Damage + (Weapon Speed * Attack Power / 14)
Normalized abilities, such as whirlwind and mortal strike, are calculated using this formula:
Damage=Base Weapon Damage + (X* Attack Power / 14)
X is a constant, it does not vary upon your weapon's speed. When you are using a two-hander, this value will be 3.3. When using a one-hander, it is 2.4. For a dagger, it is 1.7.
The extra damage really becomes obvious with very slow weapons. Take for example, a [Stormherald] on a player with 3500 AP.
Slam=579 + (3.8*3500/14)=1524 + 140=1664
Mortal Strike=579 + (3.3*3500/14)=1404 + 210=1614
As you can see, Slam can actually hit harder than MS. It also costs half the rage. The only downfall is that it resets the swing timer. Improved Slam has a casting time of .5 seconds, so if it is used immediately after a white hit, you should only lose .5 seconds + your latency off your swing.
Note that a slower weapon will not greatly increase damage over time. As long as your weapon + buffs stay at less than 2.5 speed (so you can complete the rotation), the extra instant attack damage will be mostly made up by a faster swing time.
Threat
Battle Stance and Berzerker Stance have a passive -20% threat generation mechanic. This combined with salvation (-30%) will usually let you go all out. If you are still having trouble, you can do a number of things:
- Use [Prism of Inner Calm]. This reduces your threat by around 10%.
- Get soulstoned, and die to wipe your agro.
- Limit your heroic strikes.
“Couldn’t I replace Heroic Strikes with Cleaves to do less threat?”
Yes, this is an option. Cleave does actually do more threat per bonus damage. However, the total threat added is lower than heroic strike. Because of this, you can do it more frequently and take advantage of the benefits from impale and and yellow damage.
Rotations
Dual Wield Fury
100%-20%
In this range, always ensure that you have rage (and that you abilities aren’t on the global cool down) to use Bloodthirst every time it comes off cool down. Whirlwind is your next priority, keep it on cool down, but Bloodthirst has priority if they both come off cool down at the same time. Keep rampage up when Bloodthirst and Whirlwind are on global cool down. If you have extra rage after that, spend it on heroic strikes. Additionally, if you extra rage after using heroic strike on every auto attack, you can throw in some hamstrings between Bloodthirsts and Whirlwinds.
20%-0%
Execute. Don’t save a full rage bar for this phase. If you do go into it with a full rage bar, Bloodthirst than start executing. The key to maximizing dps in this phase is to ensure that you can execute on every global cool down. Equipping a fast MH usually helps to do this, by smoothing out your rage generation. Something like [King's Defender] works well. Also, if you have more than 2989AP, Bloodthirst is more efficient than execute.
(30 Rage Execute=1245 Damage; 2989AP Bloodthirst=1245 Damage Thanks Zoroaster)
Mortal Strike/Improved Slam Build
100%-20%
In order to get the most out of your slams, you will want to time them to hit immediately after a swing. To do this efficiently, you will want a swing timer. I recommend using either Swinger or Quartz.
You will than have a rotation like this:
White Attack->Slam->Mortal Strike->White Attack->Slam->Whirlwind->White Attack->Slam->Mortal Strike->White Attack->Slam->Hamstring/Shout
Make sure that the global cool down is free after after a white attack, so you can cast slam freely. "Spam Slam" is not an efficient form of dps. The 1.5 second global cool down means you can only get around 2-3 slams in place of white attacks. Heroic Strike won't be used much here because this rotation is very rage intensive.
Keep in mind that slam basically has a built in /stopcasting macro. You can watch your latency, and start you slam early. For example, if you have 200ms, you can start your slam .2 seconds before your auto attack lands.
If your hasted with something like heroism, or very high end gear, or you have a relatively fast two-hander, you may wish to drop Slam from your rotation. There is a point where cutting .5 seconds off your auto attack is a bigger loss in dps than you gain from the slam. This rotation is also impossible if you swing faster than 2.5 seconds. Again, you would want to cut slam out of your rotation if this occurs.
20%-0%
Continue the same rotation above. Execute spam is not very efficient with a two-hander. If you have heroism, or drink a haste pot, or something similar, than start spamming. Those buffs will make your weapon fast enough to not waste rage. You will still want to keep MS on cooldown if you have the rage. Alternatively, you can equip a couple fast one-handers. If you have around 9% hit, than this can be effective. However, if you have low hit like many MS warriors, you may miss too much to get off consistent executes.
Useful References
Slam Guide Thanks Turpin
Catalog of Theorycraft
DPS Spreadsheet
Last edited by Tiburon11 : 10/10/07 at 8:48 PM. Reason: Corrections
excellent post
the use of Bloodlust Brooch gives 278 AP, giving a static 46.33... AP
the use of Bloodlust Brooch gives 278 AP, giving a static 46.33... AP
Thankyou Tiburon.
We have had many discussions amongst our DPS Warriors and other Melee classes on the relative value of +hit and +crit. Your post has just alleviated me several hours of headaches.
We have had many discussions amongst our DPS Warriors and other Melee classes on the relative value of +hit and +crit. Your post has just alleviated me several hours of headaches.
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Originally Posted by gemmanite
excellent post
the use of Bloodlust Brooch gives 278 AP, giving a static 46.33... AP |
Great post Tib.
and yeah, the brooch is 278 AP on use, not 260, 46.33 would be the correct amount.
and yeah, the brooch is 278 AP on use, not 260, 46.33 would be the correct amount.
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Originally Posted by Tiburon11
Haste
At low levels, haste is very comparable to hit. Adding 1% haste will cause 1 extra attack in your next 100 attacks, similar to hit. However, haste scales much better than hit. Imagine you have a 4.00 speed weapon. You add 1% haste, reducing the weapon speed by .04 seconds down to 3.96. Now imagine you have a weapon already hasted by 98%. You now have a swing timer of .08 seconds. You than add 1% haste, reducing the speed by another .04 seconds and bringing your total haste to 99%. However, as you can probably tell, reducing your swing speed from .08 seconds to .04 seconds causes a significantly larger impact than reducing your swing speed from 4.00 to 3.96 does. In this first situation you are increasing the number of swings you get over a minute by 1%, but in the second example you are increasing that value by 200%. |
Going from 0% haste to 1% haste takes a 4.00 weapon to 4.00 / 1.01 = 3.96.
Going from 98% to 99% takes you from 4.00 / 1.98 = 2.02 to 4.00 / 1.99 = 2.01.
Nice post, otherwise.
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Originally Posted by Tiburon11
“Couldn’t I replace Heroic Strikes with Cleaves to do less threat?”
No, Cleave does more threat per damage. Heroic Strike does 176 damage and 196 threat, while cleave does 70 extra damage and 130 threat. As you can see, Heroic Strike does .9 damage per threat, while cleave does .54 damage per threat. You will do more damage by using less heroics strikes than you will by switching to cleave. |
Both heroic strike and cleave add bonuses BEYOND their +damage because they make a white attack a special attack. This adds the following bonuses:
1) Cannot glance
2) Increased chance to hit
3) +10% damage on crits
For example, let's say that "removing glancing blows, reducing chance to miss, and +crit" increases the expected damage of an attack by 200.
This changes your calculation as follows:
Heroic strike adds 176 damage (+200 for hit/glance) for 196 threat. 1.92 damage/threat
Cleave adds 70 damage (+200 for hit/glance) for 130 bonus threat. 2.07 damage/threat
Here, cleave is the victor. If you can calculate the value of these other bonuses (no glance, +hit, +10% crit damage), THEN you can calculate what is better damage per threat.
Nice Writeup Tib
I believe the hit cap for yellow hits and 2 handed whites is 8.64%
Regarding slam and normalizaion, Ceasar has a nice write up arguing that weapon speed is not a factor for slam on page 3 here:
http://www.honorbound.se/Slamdps2.pdf
I believe the hit cap for yellow hits and 2 handed whites is 8.64%
Regarding slam and normalizaion, Ceasar has a nice write up arguing that weapon speed is not a factor for slam on page 3 here:
http://www.honorbound.se/Slamdps2.pdf
Overall very good post. Definitely would help cut down on some of the more commonly asked questions. Couple things that I noticed while reading through your post that I've quoted and commented on below. Not trying to bash on the hard work you put into this though, very nicely done.
"Since yellow attacks only have a 9% miss rate, they have a correspondingly higher hit rate."
Yellow attacks also cannot glance, increasing the crit cap by 25%
"Thus, you can roughly say that 1% hit is equal to 2% crit once you have over 9%."
Shouldn't it be reversed? 1% crit is equal to 2% hit once your yellow attacks are capped? Of course it isn't quite this easy with rage generation and all, but I know the point you are trying to make.
"X is a constant, it does not vary upon your weapon's speed. When you are using a two-hander, this value will be 3.3. When using a one-hander, it is 2.4."
Daggers have a 1.7 speed for normalized attacks, really is noticeable with WW/Overpower.
"Execute. Don’t save a full rage bar for this phase. If you do go into it with a full rage bar, Bloodthirst than start executing. The key to maximizing dps in this phase is to ensure that you can execute on every global cool down. Equipping a fast MH usually helps to do this, by smoothing out your rage generation."
With Hyjal/BT gear I believe Bloodthirst is actually more rage efficent then execute if you have 30 rage. So during execute phase if you get a couple crits while global CD is up and you have 30 rage, don't use it on excute, BT instead. (Can someone else verify this? I have seen a number of comments about it in the past and the napkin math I did seemed to confirm.)
" White Attack->Slam->Mortal Strike->White Attack->Slam->Whirlwind->White Attack->Slam->Hamstring/Shout"
The best rotation in my experience is actually, white - slam - MS - white - slam - WW - white - slam - MS - white - slam - shout/hamstring. Basically a 4 slam rotation, since WW has such a long cooldown.
"Since yellow attacks only have a 9% miss rate, they have a correspondingly higher hit rate."
Yellow attacks also cannot glance, increasing the crit cap by 25%
"Thus, you can roughly say that 1% hit is equal to 2% crit once you have over 9%."
Shouldn't it be reversed? 1% crit is equal to 2% hit once your yellow attacks are capped? Of course it isn't quite this easy with rage generation and all, but I know the point you are trying to make.
"X is a constant, it does not vary upon your weapon's speed. When you are using a two-hander, this value will be 3.3. When using a one-hander, it is 2.4."
Daggers have a 1.7 speed for normalized attacks, really is noticeable with WW/Overpower.
"Execute. Don’t save a full rage bar for this phase. If you do go into it with a full rage bar, Bloodthirst than start executing. The key to maximizing dps in this phase is to ensure that you can execute on every global cool down. Equipping a fast MH usually helps to do this, by smoothing out your rage generation."
With Hyjal/BT gear I believe Bloodthirst is actually more rage efficent then execute if you have 30 rage. So during execute phase if you get a couple crits while global CD is up and you have 30 rage, don't use it on excute, BT instead. (Can someone else verify this? I have seen a number of comments about it in the past and the napkin math I did seemed to confirm.)
" White Attack->Slam->Mortal Strike->White Attack->Slam->Whirlwind->White Attack->Slam->Hamstring/Shout"
The best rotation in my experience is actually, white - slam - MS - white - slam - WW - white - slam - MS - white - slam - shout/hamstring. Basically a 4 slam rotation, since WW has such a long cooldown.
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Originally Posted by Turpin
Nice Writeup Tib
I believe the hit cap for yellow hits and 2 handed whites is 8.64% Regarding slam and normalizaion, Ceasar has a nice write up arguing that weapon speed is not a factor for slam on page 3 here: http://www.honorbound.se/Slamdps2.pdf |
I think you are misreading his post, or you mean something different. He states that you do not want a 2h faster then 2.5 seconds post flurry/haste, and a bit slower would be preferred since 2.5 speed requires very precise timing of your slams/instants.
Edited onPatch 2.2.0
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Originally Posted by Turpin
I believe the hit cap for yellow hits and 2 handed whites is 8.64%
Regarding slam and normalizaion, Ceasar has a nice write up arguing that weapon speed is not a factor for slam on page 3 here: http://www.honorbound.se/Slamdps2.pdf |
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Originally Posted by Zoroaster
"Since yellow attacks only have a 9% miss rate, they have a correspondingly higher hit rate."
Yellow attacks also cannot glance, increasing the crit cap by 25% |
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Originally Posted by Zoroaster
"Thus, you can roughly say that 1% hit is equal to 2% crit once you have over 9%."
Shouldn't it be reversed? 1% crit is equal to 2% hit once your yellow attacks are capped? Of course it isn't quite this easy with rage generation and all, but I know the point you are trying to make. |
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Originally Posted by Zoroaster
"X is a constant, it does not vary upon your weapon's speed. When you are using a two-hander, this value will be 3.3. When using a one-hander, it is 2.4."
Daggers have a 1.7 speed for normalized attacks, really is noticeable with WW/Overpower. |
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Originally Posted by Zoroaster
"Execute. Don’t save a full rage bar for this phase. If you do go into it with a full rage bar, Bloodthirst than start executing. The key to maximizing dps in this phase is to ensure that you can execute on every global cool down. Equipping a fast MH usually helps to do this, by smoothing out your rage generation."
With Hyjal/BT gear I believe Bloodthirst is actually more rage efficent then execute if you have 30 rage. So during execute phase if you get a couple crits while global CD is up and you have 30 rage, don't use it on excute, BT instead. (Can someone else verify this? I have seen a number of comments about it in the past and the napkin math I did seemed to confirm.)' |
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Originally Posted by Zoroaster
" White Attack->Slam->Mortal Strike->White Attack->Slam->Whirlwind->White Attack->Slam->Hamstring/Shout"
The best rotation in my experience is actually, white - slam - MS - white - slam - WW - white - slam - MS - white - slam - shout/hamstring. Basically a 4 slam rotation, since WW has such a long cooldown. |
Last edited by Tiburon11 : 09/25/07 at 3:04 AM.
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Originally Posted by Zoroaster
I think you are misreading his post, or you mean something different. He states that you do not want a 2h faster then 2.5 seconds post flurry/haste, and a bit slower would be preferred since 2.5 speed requires very precise timing of your slams/instants.
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Originally Posted by Turpin
top of pg 4 he says "as we can see slow weapon=more damage is a myth". his argument for it is before this.
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When you are in the 3.5-3.8 speed range it's not a big difference. However faster then 2.5 (post flurry/haste of course) will hurt your DPS. Granted, there aren't very many 2h weapons that are faster then 3.5, also with the somewhat limited choices in end-game 2h's most people take whatever drops first.
Ok, here is the math for execute vs BT when you have 30 rage. This assumes you have 2/2 imp execute.
30 rage execute does 1345 damage
Bloodthirst does 1345 damage with 2,989AP.
So if you have 2,989AP or higher it's better to BT then execute with 30 rage, the higher your AP the bigger the difference. When I was 17/44 what I just did was hit BT then execute, if you don't have rage for BT then no wasted global CD and you execute.
Commonly accepted fact is that 15 rage executes are your best damage per rage. However once you hit 4573 AP, BT is more rage efficient. Now this requires very good gear, but I'm sure people with mostly Hyjal/BT gear are either at this point already, or nearing it. I know I was often around 4000 AP as 17/44, this was with 2 pieces of tier 6 loot, the haste ring off trash and a Swiftsteel mace.
30 rage execute does 1345 damage
Bloodthirst does 1345 damage with 2,989AP.
So if you have 2,989AP or higher it's better to BT then execute with 30 rage, the higher your AP the bigger the difference. When I was 17/44 what I just did was hit BT then execute, if you don't have rage for BT then no wasted global CD and you execute.
Commonly accepted fact is that 15 rage executes are your best damage per rage. However once you hit 4573 AP, BT is more rage efficient. Now this requires very good gear, but I'm sure people with mostly Hyjal/BT gear are either at this point already, or nearing it. I know I was often around 4000 AP as 17/44, this was with 2 pieces of tier 6 loot, the haste ring off trash and a Swiftsteel mace.
Edited onPatch 2.2.0
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Originally Posted by Natural
Very nice post, however, you should read some of the earlier discussion about cleave and heroic strike.
Both heroic strike and cleave add bonuses BEYOND their +damage because they make a white attack a special attack. This adds the following bonuses: 1) Cannot glance 2) Increased chance to hit 3) +10% damage on crits For example, let's say that "removing glancing blows, reducing chance to miss, and +crit" increases the expected damage of an attack by 200. This changes your calculation as follows: Heroic strike adds 176 damage (+200 for hit/glance) for 196 threat. 1.92 damage/threat Cleave adds 70 damage (+200 for hit/glance) for 130 bonus threat. 2.07 damage/threat Here, cleave is the victor. If you can calculate the value of these other bonuses (no glance, +hit, +10% crit damage), THEN you can calculate what is better damage per threat. |
If you include 130 swing damage you get damage/threat values like this:
HS: damage/threat = 306/(306+196) = 0.610
Cleave: 200/(200+130) = 0.606
[top]> i.e. HS is better than Cleave
If you assume a 150 swing damage:
HS: damage/threat
326/(326+196) = 0.624
Cleave: 220/(220+130) = 0.629
=> Cleave is better.
Not sure I went wrong somewhere, but this is actually quite interesting, I never thought that including the swing damage could make such a difference.
edit: this is just wrong, read the later posts by Natural. It turns out that the turnover point in efficiency for HS/Cleave comes at the same value of extra damage (due to 9 %miss and no glances) regardless of if you model the efficiency as extra damage/bonus threat or as extra damage /(extra damage*mod + bonus therat)
Last edited by Gruntle : 09/29/07 at 6:39 AM.
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Originally Posted by Tiburon11
How to Itemize or “But don’t I need 200 Hit Rating?”
There are no magical numbers when it comes to warrior damage. Achieving say, 200 hit rating does not suddenly increase your dps. When deciding on an item to equip, just figure out which item will increase your dps by the largest amount. Don’t equip an item just to hit a certain value. In the end, your stats should even out due to blizzard’s itemization. Due not trust generic values such as “AP is worth 1 point, Crit 2 points, etc.” These values can change and vary significantly between players. |
I agree with the 200 hit rating statement of course but using static values for the worth of different stats is very well supported by theorycrafting (in the spreadsheet). Once you have reached 9% +hit the relative value of the different stats stay pretty constant (at least they don't switch places) for a specific build. For DW fury the order (after 9% hit): 1 haste ~> 1 str/0.5 AP > 1 crit rating > 1 hit rating, is supported by the spreadsheets for all gear setups I've tried. Maybe the spreadsheets do not mirror "reality", but if you trust the theorycrafting then this seems to be how it works.
About the 9% miss chance. A lot of testing in the weapon skill thread showed that the base miss chance is 9% (with a very small margin of error) vs 73 mobs, without any weapon skill. It might be interesting to include a section on weapon skill in this guide. Check that thread for the results (one result is that the first 5 weapon skill gives you 3% hit).
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Originally Posted by Gruntle
It might be interesting to include a section on weapon skill in this guide. Check that thread for the results (one result is that the first 5 weapon skill gives you 3% hit).
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My question is: How do you guys rate haste and how important is it to pursue in gearing as a Fury Warrior? As most Warrior DPS topics and posts found, this is a gray area that I never have seen discussed in great detail, such as acceptable loss in stats to achieve high static haste.
Since I have reached BT and tried to go the haste route though my AP took a 130 point drop, 4% was lost from crit dropping me to 27% and around 800 health for only a 10% static haste ( which will be nerfed some in this next patch ). Granted I have limited access to the complete gear from both BT / Hyjal to balance my stats, but is haste really worth it? Also I noticed most Fury Warriors that have completed both instances wear very little to none or they are always wearing two-handed gear set ups.
If anyone has or still uses a full haste gear set, what were your impressions and was it worth the loss of stats? After the patch is it still worth it?
Finally, sorry about all the questions in this one post regarding haste, when choosing your gear which of the follow options would you take?
Rings
Band of Devastation vs Ring of 1000 marks vs Ring of Lethality vs Unstoppable Aggressors Ring
Bracers
Swift Steel Bracer vs Furious Shackles vs Bracer of Eradication
Shoulders
Swift Steel Shoulders vs Onslaught Shoulder Blades vs Blood-stained Pauldrons vs Destroyer Shoulderblades
Gloves
Onslaught Gauntlets vs Pillager's gauntlets vs Grips of Silent Justice
Belt
Red Belt of Battle vs Belt of Seething Fury
I believe this is pretty much all the haste gear slots w/o going into weapons.
Any ways, hopefully someone who has a much better understanding then me or who has already experienced trying to full haste gear set up wouldn't mind taking their time to comment on this for me.
Thanks in advance,
Nicensoft
Since I have reached BT and tried to go the haste route though my AP took a 130 point drop, 4% was lost from crit dropping me to 27% and around 800 health for only a 10% static haste ( which will be nerfed some in this next patch ). Granted I have limited access to the complete gear from both BT / Hyjal to balance my stats, but is haste really worth it? Also I noticed most Fury Warriors that have completed both instances wear very little to none or they are always wearing two-handed gear set ups.
If anyone has or still uses a full haste gear set, what were your impressions and was it worth the loss of stats? After the patch is it still worth it?
Finally, sorry about all the questions in this one post regarding haste, when choosing your gear which of the follow options would you take?
Rings
Band of Devastation vs Ring of 1000 marks vs Ring of Lethality vs Unstoppable Aggressors Ring
Bracers
Swift Steel Bracer vs Furious Shackles vs Bracer of Eradication
Shoulders
Swift Steel Shoulders vs Onslaught Shoulder Blades vs Blood-stained Pauldrons vs Destroyer Shoulderblades
Gloves
Onslaught Gauntlets vs Pillager's gauntlets vs Grips of Silent Justice
Belt
Red Belt of Battle vs Belt of Seething Fury
I believe this is pretty much all the haste gear slots w/o going into weapons.
Any ways, hopefully someone who has a much better understanding then me or who has already experienced trying to full haste gear set up wouldn't mind taking their time to comment on this for me.
Thanks in advance,
Nicensoft
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Originally Posted by Nicensoft
My question is: How do you guys rate haste and how important is it to pursue in gearing as a Fury Warrior? As most Warrior DPS topics and posts found, this is a gray area that I never have seen discussed in great detail, such as acceptable loss in stats to achieve high static haste.
Since I have reached BT and tried to go the haste route though my AP took a 130 point drop, 4% was lost from crit dropping me to 27% and around 800 health for only a 10% static haste ( which will be nerfed some in this next patch ). Granted I have limited access to the complete gear from both BT / Hyjal to balance my stats, but is haste really worth it? Also I noticed most Fury Warriors that have completed both instances wear very little to none or they are always wearing two-handed gear set ups. If anyone has or still uses a full haste gear set, what were your impressions and was it worth the loss of stats? After the patch is it still worth it? Finally, sorry about all the questions in this one post regarding haste, when choosing your gear which of the follow options would you take? Rings Band of Devastation vs Ring of 1000 marks vs Ring of Lethality vs Unstoppable Aggressors Ring Bracers Swift Steel Bracer vs Furious Shackles vs Bracer of Eradication Shoulders Swift Steel Shoulders vs Onslaught Shoulder Blades vs Blood-stained Pauldrons vs Destroyer Shoulderblades Gloves Onslaught Gauntlets vs Pillager's gauntlets vs Grips of Silent Justice Belt Red Belt of Battle vs Belt of Seething Fury I believe this is pretty much all the haste gear slots w/o going into weapons. Any ways, hopefully someone who has a much better understanding then me or who has already experienced trying to full haste gear set up wouldn't mind taking their time to comment on this for me. Thanks in advance, Nicensoft |
As soon as 1% of your average damage per strike exceeds 1% of your char screen average damage, one haste rating is better than one hit rating. (I assume you're yellow hit-capped in BT easily anyway)
In other words, if your crit damage gain exceeds your damage loss from miss, dodge and glancings, you get a better benefit out of haste rating than hit rating.
If you add in Heroic Strike which should be hit-capped already, haste rating gets even better.
The bigger problem is a comparison of white damage only increasing stats(hit rating and haste rating) to stats increasing white and yellow damage(crit rating, attack power and armor ignore).
The second problem is that haste gear is generally worse itemized than other gear, most of the haste gear has only two damage stats (haste and attack power) while other items have three or four (attack power, crit, hit and armor ignore).
Am I right when I say haste rating is the stat which increases threat higher than other ratings?
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Originally Posted by Nicensoft
Rings
Band of Devastation vs Ring of 1000 marks vs Ring of Lethality vs Unstoppable Aggressors Ring Bracers Swift Steel Bracer vs Furious Shackles vs Bracer of Eradication Shoulders Swift Steel Shoulders vs Onslaught Shoulder Blades vs Blood-stained Pauldrons vs Destroyer Shoulderblades Gloves Onslaught Gauntlets vs Pillager's gauntlets vs Grips of Silent Justice Belt Red Belt of Battle vs Belt of Seething Fury |
Unstoppable Agressor+Ring of 1000 marks
Bracers of Eradication
Blood-stained Pauldrons
Grips of Silent Justice
Red Belt of Battle
I would also mention the following gear you did not, but have access to based on your other choices:
Band of the Ranger-General. This is 1000 marks but better.
Deadly Cuffs. Leather...but better than the three you mentioned.
The Anetheron belt, and perhaps the Vashj belt, both leather, are a tad better than Red Belt of Battle but given how easy the Red Belt is to get...it may not make sense to upgrade depending on your loot system.
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Originally Posted by Zoroaster
When you are in the 3.5-3.8 speed range it's not a big difference. However faster then 2.5 (post flurry/haste of course) will hurt your DPS. Granted, there aren't very many 2h weapons that are faster then 3.5, also with the somewhat limited choices in end-game 2h's most people take whatever drops first.
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1. You should not let your flurried weapon speed go below 2.5+lag because then you will not have enough time for 1 global cooldown in between slams. This is not a sliding scale. Anything above 2.5+lag has the same effect here.
2. Since slam is not normalized, doesnt it mean that slower weapons are better for a slam build? He tries to use math to answer this question and arrives at the answer that weapon speed makes no different, even if slam is not normalized. This is because with a slower weapon, while you get harder slam hits, you also get less frequent slam hits because there is more time in between auto attacks. He shows that these 2 things cancel eachother out (almost like blizzard intended it and that is why they dont normalize slam).
Again, they are 2 separate issues. The only thing they have in common is that they related to weapon speed.
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Originally Posted by D4vE
If this is true [Belt of One-Hundred Deaths] is the best fury dps belt.
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Edited onPatch 2.2.0
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Originally Posted by Gruntle
You can't calculate the values of damage per threat like that. You have to include the bonus damage in the threat done to compare Cleave and HS (they both do more threat than just the bonus threat). It seems you are right however, including the white damage part of HS/Cleave seems to indicate that if your average swing damage is greater than around 140 Cleave becomes better than HS in terms of damage/threat (and Imp. Cleave is better already with 0 swing damage).
If you include 130 swing damage you get damage/threat values like this: HS: damage/threat = 306/(306+196) = 0.610 Cleave: 200/(200+130) = 0.606 [top]> i.e. HS is better than Cleave |
Raw threat generated per damage point dealt is the same no matter what attack we use. What we need to compare is "How much harder will I hit with HS instead of a white attack" vs. "How much harder will I hit with Cleave instead of a white attack". You need to calculate the expected damage of an attack, including chances to miss, hit, glance, and crit based on the attack table.
To put this in an equation:
Note: Let ED() represent expected damage of an attack.
Threat Efficiency(HS) = [ED(HS) - ED(white)] / [Threat(HS ability threat*)]
Threat Efficiency(Cleave) = [ED(Cleave) - ED(white)] / [Threat(Cleave ability threat*)]
The more "threat efficient" attack will depend on your gear. Period.
(E) * Ability threat refers to the 'useless threat' caused by using the ability. This does not include the threat caused by the damage portion of the attack.
Last edited by Natural : 09/26/07 at 12:24 PM.
9% appears to be the correct value for yellow/2h miss from the testing done in the weapon skill thread.
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Originally Posted by Gruntle
It might be interesting to include a section on weapon skill in this guide. Check that thread for the results (one result is that the first 5 weapon skill gives you 3% hit).
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Edited onPatch 2.2.0
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Originally Posted by Nicensoft
My question is: How do you guys rate haste and how important is it to pursue in gearing as a Fury Warrior? As most Warrior DPS topics and posts found, this is a gray area that I never have seen discussed in great detail, such as acceptable loss in stats to achieve high static haste.
Since I have reached BT and tried to go the haste route though my AP took a 130 point drop, 4% was lost from crit dropping me to 27% and around 800 health for only a 10% static haste ( which will be nerfed some in this next patch ). Granted I have limited access to the complete gear from both BT / Hyjal to balance my stats, but is haste really worth it? Also I noticed most Fury Warriors that have completed both instances wear very little to none or they are always wearing two-handed gear set ups. If anyone has or still uses a full haste gear set, what were your impressions and was it worth the loss of stats? After the patch is it still worth it? Finally, sorry about all the questions in this one post regarding haste, when choosing your gear which of the follow options would you take? Rings Band of Devastation vs Ring of 1000 marks vs Ring of Lethality vs Unstoppable Aggressors Ring Bracers Swift Steel Bracer vs Furious Shackles vs Bracer of Eradication Shoulders Swift Steel Shoulders vs Onslaught Shoulder Blades vs Blood-stained Pauldrons vs Destroyer Shoulderblades Gloves Onslaught Gauntlets vs Pillager's gauntlets vs Grips of Silent Justice Belt Red Belt of Battle vs Belt of Seething Fury I believe this is pretty much all the haste gear slots w/o going into weapons. Any ways, hopefully someone who has a much better understanding then me or who has already experienced trying to full haste gear set up wouldn't mind taking their time to comment on this for me. Thanks in advance, Nicensoft |
| The bigger problem is a comparison of white damage only increasing stats(hit rating and haste rating) to stats increasing white and yellow damage(crit rating, attack power and armor ignore). The second problem is that haste gear is generally worse itemized than other gear, most of the haste gear has only two damage stats (haste and attack power) while other items have three or four (attack power, crit, hit and armor ignore). |
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To put this in an equation: Note: Let ED() represent expected damage of an attack. Threat Efficiency(HS) = [ED(HS) - ED(white)] / [Threat(HS)] Threat Efficiency(Cleave) = [ED(Cleave) - ED(white)] / [Threat(Cleave)] The more "threat efficient" attack will depend on your gear. Period. |
Last edited by Graul : 09/25/07 at 8:03 PM.
@that rumor with slam dps being weapon speed independant:
That isn't true at all, a little example with a very big speed difference to show the point for scaling only (so it doesn't include additional slam damage):
Weapon 1: 100 damage per hit, 1.0 attackspeed, 10 rage per hit
Weapon 2: 200 damage per hit, 2.0 attackspeed, 20 rage per hit
Weapon 3: 400 damage per hit, 4.0 attackspeed, 40 rage per hit
With a cast time of 0.7 for slam(due to lagg) and a rage cost of 15, you get the following results:
Weapon 1:
3 hits for 100 damage each generating 10 rage each having an interval of 1 second each
2 slams for 100 damage each costing 15 rage each having a cast time of 0.7 seconds each
Total: 500 damage in 4.4 seconds (=113,64 dps) with 0 excess rage per second
Weapon 2:
1 hit for 200 damage generating 20 rage having an interval of 2 seconds
1 slam for 200 damage costing 15 rage having a cast time of 0.7 seconds
Total: 400 damage in 2.7 seconds (=148.15 dps) with 1.85 excess rage per second
Weapon 3:
1 hit for 400 damage generating 40 rage having an interval of 4 seconds
1 slam for 400 damage costing 15 rage having a cast time of 0.7 seconds
Total: 800 damage in 4.7 seconds (=170,21 dps) with 5,32 excess rage per second
As long as slam's cast time and rage cost don't scale with weapon speed, slower weapons will always be better for slam dps.
That isn't true at all, a little example with a very big speed difference to show the point for scaling only (so it doesn't include additional slam damage):
Weapon 1: 100 damage per hit, 1.0 attackspeed, 10 rage per hit
Weapon 2: 200 damage per hit, 2.0 attackspeed, 20 rage per hit
Weapon 3: 400 damage per hit, 4.0 attackspeed, 40 rage per hit
With a cast time of 0.7 for slam(due to lagg) and a rage cost of 15, you get the following results:
Weapon 1:
3 hits for 100 damage each generating 10 rage each having an interval of 1 second each
2 slams for 100 damage each costing 15 rage each having a cast time of 0.7 seconds each
Total: 500 damage in 4.4 seconds (=113,64 dps) with 0 excess rage per second
Weapon 2:
1 hit for 200 damage generating 20 rage having an interval of 2 seconds
1 slam for 200 damage costing 15 rage having a cast time of 0.7 seconds
Total: 400 damage in 2.7 seconds (=148.15 dps) with 1.85 excess rage per second
Weapon 3:
1 hit for 400 damage generating 40 rage having an interval of 4 seconds
1 slam for 400 damage costing 15 rage having a cast time of 0.7 seconds
Total: 800 damage in 4.7 seconds (=170,21 dps) with 5,32 excess rage per second
As long as slam's cast time and rage cost don't scale with weapon speed, slower weapons will always be better for slam dps.
Despite the Haste nerf, the spreadsheet seems to rate 2x [Swiftsteel Bludgeon] as the highest DPS of all the combos I tried.What do people think is the ideal weapon setup now, pre-Warglaives?
Is the spreadsheet using the 2.2 values for haste, or prenerf? I just added a second Bludgeon in with a lower haste rating, assuming it was using prenerf.
I have been testing in Blasted lands the dual [Swiftsteel Bludgeon] combination and the Dragonstrike Mainhand and [Swiftsteel Bludgeon] offhand combination.For me the second came out better on recap.Not by a lot but about 30-50dps more ,the test was made 3 weeks ago so i dont remmember exactly how better dragonstrike and swiftstell is compared to 2xswiftsteel bludgeon but the proc of dragonstrike just makes it superior even at execute range.
Another reason why haste items are lacking (even before patch) is that they have no sockets compared to some of their equivalents (Red Belt of Battle, Grips of Silent Justice and Furious Shackles). Sockets cost less item points than the equivalent of 10 item points (or even 12 with the unique gem). After this patch I think Band of Devastation is the only worthwhile item with passive haste, mostly because of it's ilvl 151. But even then it's questionable.
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Originally Posted by woo-haa
Another reason why haste items are lacking (even before patch) is that they have no sockets compared to some of their equivalents (Red Belt of Battle, Grips of Silent Justice and Furious Shackles). Sockets cost less item points than the equivalent of 10 item points (or even 12 with the unique gem). After this patch I think Band of Devastation is the only worthwhile item with passive haste, mostly because of it's ilvl 151. But even then it's questionable.
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As a MS Warrior I'll try going for some haste as it increases not only white damage but also slam damage but even then it's probably not going to make a difference to ordinary stats at all.
Haste nerf hit kind of hard, I was using shoulders/ring/ring/bracers to test this week, next week going to wear less. Wow Web Stats
Rather sloppy kill, had feral druid from about 30%-0, but died at 9% with reck/deathwish/bloodlust brooch/insane strength up, so should have been at least 1850 dps.
Rather sloppy kill, had feral druid from about 30%-0, but died at 9% with reck/deathwish/bloodlust brooch/insane strength up, so should have been at least 1850 dps.
Edited onPatch 2.2.0
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Originally Posted by Natural
Note: Let ED() represent expected damage of an attack. Threat Efficiency(HS) = [ED(HS) - ED(white)] / [Threat(HS)] Threat Efficiency(Cleave) = [ED(Cleave) - ED(white)] / [Threat(Cleave)] The more "threat efficient" attack will depend on your gear. Period. |
Threat Efficiency(HS) = [ED(HS) - ED(white)] / [Threat(HS) - Threat(white)]=
[ED(HS) - ED(white)] / [Bonusthreat(HS) + ED(HS) - ED(white)]
So if I say that ED(HS) - ED(white) is 376 (this means that, on average, a HS hit will do 376 more damage than a white hit), I get:
TE(HS) = 376 / (196+376) = 0.66
For Cleave, the amount of extra damage from the hit/crit will not be the same. This is because a crit with cleave will add less damage than a crit with HS (70*2 vs 176*2), The difference depend on your crit rate. Using my gear and checking the damage in my spreadsheet, Cleave will cause approximately 220 more damage than a white hit. Then:
TE(Cleave) = 220 / (220+130) = 0.63
And I find that HS is a little bit better. In terms of damage/rage Cleave has no chance vs single target ofc.
This will of course change with gear, it's not easy to calculate without using spreadsheets (which I've done here).
edit: made some things a bit clearer
Last edited by Gruntle : 09/27/07 at 5:16 AM.
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Originally Posted by Graul
Is this to be used under the "rage is not a factor" mentality? Even if Cleave is superior in threat per damage, it's horribly inefficient in damage per rage on a single target.
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To be clear--I'm not necessarily suggesting to use cleave. I am only suggesting that we evaluate it correctly =)
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Originally Posted by Gruntle
Sure, you are right that the expected damage is what should be used here (I assumed the expected damage to be 130/150 damage), BUT in your calculations you use Threat(HS) = 196.
This is not true, the full threat from HS is Damage + Bonus threat (and the same for Cleave). So if I try to make a better formula to compute threat efficiency (calculated as the the ratio of damage (HS - white) and threat (HS - white)), I would use: Threat Efficiency(HS) = [ED(HS) - ED(white)] / [Threat(HS) - Threat(white)]= [ED(HS) - ED(white)] / [Bonusthreat(HS) + ED(HS) - ED(white)] So if I say that ED(HS) - ED(white) is 376 (i.e. your assumption), I get: TE(HS) = 376 / (196+376) = 0.66 |
To be clear, I will update my original post to clarify that the "threat" I am referring to is the ability threat--not the damage threat.
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For Cleave, the amount of extra damage from the hit/crit will not be the same. This is because a crit with cleave will add less damage than a crit with HS (70*2 vs 176*2), The difference depend on your crit rate, for my gear the difference is about 50. Using that, Cleave will get a 150 damage bonus from the hit/crit. Then: TE(Cleave) = 220 / (220+130) = 0.63 |
Again, I am not advocating that people use cleave. I am advocating that people avoid making blanket statements without understanding the real calculations involved in making a comparison.
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Originally Posted by Graul
Is the spreadsheet using the 2.2 values for haste, or prenerf? I just added a second Bludgeon in with a lower haste rating, assuming it was using prenerf.
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This is perhaps an aside, but with the relentless earthstorm diamond nerf, which would be the best meta gem for a 17/44 DW warrior at the SSC/TK level of progression? (1774AP battle, 27%crit battle, 191hit rating)
"As you might have noticed from reading above, there is a point on the table where you will have removed all hit from the table. At this point, adding more crit would be useless, since it would be ignored. This occurs at 21.4% crit for white attacks against a standard level 73 mob. You can, however, raise this cap by adding hit. Every 1% hit you add increases the crit cap by the same amount. Since there are no ways to reduce the dodge or glancing rates (except possibly weapon skill, who’s effects are still relatively unclear), there is a maximum amount of crit you can stack. This occurs for white attacks when you have capped your hit, which means the maximum useful amount of crit occurs at 49.4%. Note that yellow attacks have a much higher cap since they only have a 9% miss rate and they cannot glance."
Note on crit cap. I think you might have just misstyped or didn't think about this. The crit cap at 0 hit rating for white attacks is 42.4%. This is 100% minus 28, minus 5.6, minus 24. Looking at your hit table, it would be the addition of the hits (77.6-100 or 22.4) with the crits, 20. As DW, raidbuffed with LoTP and consumables, even mongoose procs don't put me over 42.4% (starting from around 31-32%). Adding hit will raise the crit cap from 42.4% but it's not as immediate an impedment as it used to be. Using just the base 9% hit, your crit cap is over 50%.
Note on crit cap. I think you might have just misstyped or didn't think about this. The crit cap at 0 hit rating for white attacks is 42.4%. This is 100% minus 28, minus 5.6, minus 24. Looking at your hit table, it would be the addition of the hits (77.6-100 or 22.4) with the crits, 20. As DW, raidbuffed with LoTP and consumables, even mongoose procs don't put me over 42.4% (starting from around 31-32%). Adding hit will raise the crit cap from 42.4% but it's not as immediate an impedment as it used to be. Using just the base 9% hit, your crit cap is over 50%.
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Originally Posted by Natural
These complications to the formula are unnecessary. The threat from the extra damage does not matter. The raw damage->threat conversion is the same no matter what ability you use. For comparison of heroic strike and cleave, the only thing that matters is the *useless threat* generated by the abilities themselves.
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Everything you say here I am incorporating into the "expected damage" of the ability. There's a decent amount of calculation that goes into this, including boss armor, level, and your gear. Again, I am not advocating that people use cleave. I am advocating that people avoid making blanket statements without understanding the real calculations involved in making a comparison. |
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Originally Posted by Gruntle
I don't agree, the extra damage produced by these abilities will also also produce more threat than a white swing, that means that you have to include that in the total threat produced by the ability to get the correct maths. The total threat from HS is more than from Cleve due to to two reasons, one being the extra added threat (196 vs 130), the other one being the extra added raw damage (176 vs 70). You can't just use the bonus threat to compare them.
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Yes, you are right that HS produces more threat than Cleave. But you do not have to add TWO bonuses onto the damage the ability causes to get the actual threat created, which is what you are arguing for.
My question is: How do you guys rate haste and how important is it to pursue in gearing as a Fury Warrior? As most Warrior DPS topics and posts found, this is a gray area that I never have seen discussed in great detail, such as acceptable loss in stats to achieve high static haste.
Since I have reached BT and tried to go the haste route though my AP took a 130 point drop, 4% was lost from crit dropping me to 27% and around 800 health for only a 10% static haste ( which will be nerfed some in this next patch ). Granted I have limited access to the complete gear from both BT / Hyjal to balance my stats, but is haste really worth it? Also I noticed most Fury Warriors that have completed both instances wear very little to none or they are always wearing two-handed gear set ups.
If anyone has or still uses a full haste gear set, what were your impressions and was it worth the loss of stats? After the patch is it still worth it?
Finally, sorry about all the questions in this one post regarding haste, when choosing your gear which of the follow options would you take?
Rings
Band of Devastation vs Ring of 1000 marks vs Ring of Lethality vs Unstoppable Aggressors Ring
Bracers
Swift Steel Bracer vs Furious Shackles vs Bracer of Eradication
Shoulders
Swift Steel Shoulders vs Onslaught Shoulder Blades vs Blood-stained Pauldrons vs Destroyer Shoulderblades
Gloves
Onslaught Gauntlets vs Pillager's gauntlets vs Grips of Silent Justice
Belt
Red Belt of Battle vs Belt of Seething Fury
I believe this is pretty much all the haste gear slots w/o going into weapons.
Any ways, hopefully someone who has a much better understanding then me or who has already experienced trying to full haste gear set up wouldn't mind taking their time to comment on this for me.
Thanks in advance,
Nicensoft
Since I have reached BT and tried to go the haste route though my AP took a 130 point drop, 4% was lost from crit dropping me to 27% and around 800 health for only a 10% static haste ( which will be nerfed some in this next patch ). Granted I have limited access to the complete gear from both BT / Hyjal to balance my stats, but is haste really worth it? Also I noticed most Fury Warriors that have completed both instances wear very little to none or they are always wearing two-handed gear set ups.
If anyone has or still uses a full haste gear set, what were your impressions and was it worth the loss of stats? After the patch is it still worth it?
Finally, sorry about all the questions in this one post regarding haste, when choosing your gear which of the follow options would you take?
Rings
Band of Devastation vs Ring of 1000 marks vs Ring of Lethality vs Unstoppable Aggressors Ring
Bracers
Swift Steel Bracer vs Furious Shackles vs Bracer of Eradication
Shoulders
Swift Steel Shoulders vs Onslaught Shoulder Blades vs Blood-stained Pauldrons vs Destroyer Shoulderblades
Gloves
Onslaught Gauntlets vs Pillager's gauntlets vs Grips of Silent Justice
Belt
Red Belt of Battle vs Belt of Seething Fury
I believe this is pretty much all the haste gear slots w/o going into weapons.
Any ways, hopefully someone who has a much better understanding then me or who has already experienced trying to full haste gear set up wouldn't mind taking their time to comment on this for me.
Thanks in advance,
Nicensoft
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Originally Posted by Nicensoft
My question is: How do you guys rate haste and how important is it to pursue in gearing as a Fury Warrior? As most Warrior DPS topics and posts found, this is a gray area that I never have seen discussed in great detail, such as acceptable loss in stats to achieve high static haste.
Since I have reached BT and tried to go the haste route though my AP took a 130 point drop, 4% was lost from crit dropping me to 27% and around 800 health for only a 10% static haste ( which will be nerfed some in this next patch ). Granted I have limited access to the complete gear from both BT / Hyjal to balance my stats, but is haste really worth it? Also I noticed most Fury Warriors that have completed both instances wear very little to none or they are always wearing two-handed gear set ups. If anyone has or still uses a full haste gear set, what were your impressions and was it worth the loss of stats? After the patch is it still worth it? Finally, sorry about all the questions in this one post regarding haste, when choosing your gear which of the follow options would you take? Rings Band of Devastation vs Ring of 1000 marks vs Ring of Lethality vs Unstoppable Aggressors Ring Bracers Swift Steel Bracer vs Furious Shackles vs Bracer of Eradication Shoulders Swift Steel Shoulders vs Onslaught Shoulder Blades vs Blood-stained Pauldrons vs Destroyer Shoulderblades Gloves Onslaught Gauntlets vs Pillager's gauntlets vs Grips of Silent Justice Belt Red Belt of Battle vs Belt of Seething Fury I believe this is pretty much all the haste gear slots w/o going into weapons. Any ways, hopefully someone who has a much better understanding then me or who has already experienced trying to full haste gear set up wouldn't mind taking their time to comment on this for me. Thanks in advance, Nicensoft |
As soon as 1% of your average damage per strike exceeds 1% of your char screen average damage, one haste rating is better than one hit rating. (I assume you're yellow hit-capped in BT easily anyway)
In other words, if your crit damage gain exceeds your damage loss from miss, dodge and glancings, you get a better benefit out of haste rating than hit rating.
If you add in Heroic Strike which should be hit-capped already, haste rating gets even better.
The bigger problem is a comparison of white damage only increasing stats(hit rating and haste rating) to stats increasing white and yellow damage(crit rating, attack power and armor ignore).
The second problem is that haste gear is generally worse itemized than other gear, most of the haste gear has only two damage stats (haste and attack power) while other items have three or four (attack power, crit, hit and armor ignore).
Am I right when I say haste rating is the stat which increases threat higher than other ratings?
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Originally Posted by Nicensoft
Rings
Band of Devastation vs Ring of 1000 marks vs Ring of Lethality vs Unstoppable Aggressors Ring Bracers Swift Steel Bracer vs Furious Shackles vs Bracer of Eradication Shoulders Swift Steel Shoulders vs Onslaught Shoulder Blades vs Blood-stained Pauldrons vs Destroyer Shoulderblades Gloves Onslaught Gauntlets vs Pillager's gauntlets vs Grips of Silent Justice Belt Red Belt of Battle vs Belt of Seething Fury |
Unstoppable Agressor+Ring of 1000 marks
Bracers of Eradication
Blood-stained Pauldrons
Grips of Silent Justice
Red Belt of Battle
I would also mention the following gear you did not, but have access to based on your other choices:
Band of the Ranger-General. This is 1000 marks but better.
Deadly Cuffs. Leather...but better than the three you mentioned.
The Anetheron belt, and perhaps the Vashj belt, both leather, are a tad better than Red Belt of Battle but given how easy the Red Belt is to get...it may not make sense to upgrade depending on your loot system.
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Originally Posted by Zoroaster
When you are in the 3.5-3.8 speed range it's not a big difference. However faster then 2.5 (post flurry/haste of course) will hurt your DPS. Granted, there aren't very many 2h weapons that are faster then 3.5, also with the somewhat limited choices in end-game 2h's most people take whatever drops first.
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1. You should not let your flurried weapon speed go below 2.5+lag because then you will not have enough time for 1 global cooldown in between slams. This is not a sliding scale. Anything above 2.5+lag has the same effect here.
2. Since slam is not normalized, doesnt it mean that slower weapons are better for a slam build? He tries to use math to answer this question and arrives at the answer that weapon speed makes no different, even if slam is not normalized. This is because with a slower weapon, while you get harder slam hits, you also get less frequent slam hits because there is more time in between auto attacks. He shows that these 2 things cancel eachother out (almost like blizzard intended it and that is why they dont normalize slam).
Again, they are 2 separate issues. The only thing they have in common is that they related to weapon speed.
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Originally Posted by D4vE
If this is true [Belt of One-Hundred Deaths] is the best fury dps belt.
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Edited onPatch 2.2.0
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Originally Posted by Gruntle
You can't calculate the values of damage per threat like that. You have to include the bonus damage in the threat done to compare Cleave and HS (they both do more threat than just the bonus threat). It seems you are right however, including the white damage part of HS/Cleave seems to indicate that if your average swing damage is greater than around 140 Cleave becomes better than HS in terms of damage/threat (and Imp. Cleave is better already with 0 swing damage).
If you include 130 swing damage you get damage/threat values like this: HS: damage/threat = 306/(306+196) = 0.610 Cleave: 200/(200+130) = 0.606 [top]> i.e. HS is better than Cleave |
Raw threat generated per damage point dealt is the same no matter what attack we use. What we need to compare is "How much harder will I hit with HS instead of a white attack" vs. "How much harder will I hit with Cleave instead of a white attack". You need to calculate the expected damage of an attack, including chances to miss, hit, glance, and crit based on the attack table.
To put this in an equation:
Note: Let ED() represent expected damage of an attack.
Threat Efficiency(HS) = [ED(HS) - ED(white)] / [Threat(HS ability threat*)]
Threat Efficiency(Cleave) = [ED(Cleave) - ED(white)] / [Threat(Cleave ability threat*)]
The more "threat efficient" attack will depend on your gear. Period.
(E) * Ability threat refers to the 'useless threat' caused by using the ability. This does not include the threat caused by the damage portion of the attack.
Last edited by Natural : 09/26/07 at 12:24 PM.
9% appears to be the correct value for yellow/2h miss from the testing done in the weapon skill thread.
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Originally Posted by Gruntle
It might be interesting to include a section on weapon skill in this guide. Check that thread for the results (one result is that the first 5 weapon skill gives you 3% hit).
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Edited onPatch 2.2.0
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Originally Posted by Nicensoft
My question is: How do you guys rate haste and how important is it to pursue in gearing as a Fury Warrior? As most Warrior DPS topics and posts found, this is a gray area that I never have seen discussed in great detail, such as acceptable loss in stats to achieve high static haste.
Since I have reached BT and tried to go the haste route though my AP took a 130 point drop, 4% was lost from crit dropping me to 27% and around 800 health for only a 10% static haste ( which will be nerfed some in this next patch ). Granted I have limited access to the complete gear from both BT / Hyjal to balance my stats, but is haste really worth it? Also I noticed most Fury Warriors that have completed both instances wear very little to none or they are always wearing two-handed gear set ups. If anyone has or still uses a full haste gear set, what were your impressions and was it worth the loss of stats? After the patch is it still worth it? Finally, sorry about all the questions in this one post regarding haste, when choosing your gear which of the follow options would you take? Rings Band of Devastation vs Ring of 1000 marks vs Ring of Lethality vs Unstoppable Aggressors Ring Bracers Swift Steel Bracer vs Furious Shackles vs Bracer of Eradication Shoulders Swift Steel Shoulders vs Onslaught Shoulder Blades vs Blood-stained Pauldrons vs Destroyer Shoulderblades Gloves Onslaught Gauntlets vs Pillager's gauntlets vs Grips of Silent Justice Belt Red Belt of Battle vs Belt of Seething Fury I believe this is pretty much all the haste gear slots w/o going into weapons. Any ways, hopefully someone who has a much better understanding then me or who has already experienced trying to full haste gear set up wouldn't mind taking their time to comment on this for me. Thanks in advance, Nicensoft |
| The bigger problem is a comparison of white damage only increasing stats(hit rating and haste rating) to stats increasing white and yellow damage(crit rating, attack power and armor ignore). The second problem is that haste gear is generally worse itemized than other gear, most of the haste gear has only two damage stats (haste and attack power) while other items have three or four (attack power, crit, hit and armor ignore). |
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To put this in an equation: Note: Let ED() represent expected damage of an attack. Threat Efficiency(HS) = [ED(HS) - ED(white)] / [Threat(HS)] Threat Efficiency(Cleave) = [ED(Cleave) - ED(white)] / [Threat(Cleave)] The more "threat efficient" attack will depend on your gear. Period. |
Last edited by Graul : 09/25/07 at 8:03 PM.
@that rumor with slam dps being weapon speed independant:
That isn't true at all, a little example with a very big speed difference to show the point for scaling only (so it doesn't include additional slam damage):
Weapon 1: 100 damage per hit, 1.0 attackspeed, 10 rage per hit
Weapon 2: 200 damage per hit, 2.0 attackspeed, 20 rage per hit
Weapon 3: 400 damage per hit, 4.0 attackspeed, 40 rage per hit
With a cast time of 0.7 for slam(due to lagg) and a rage cost of 15, you get the following results:
Weapon 1:
3 hits for 100 damage each generating 10 rage each having an interval of 1 second each
2 slams for 100 damage each costing 15 rage each having a cast time of 0.7 seconds each
Total: 500 damage in 4.4 seconds (=113,64 dps) with 0 excess rage per second
Weapon 2:
1 hit for 200 damage generating 20 rage having an interval of 2 seconds
1 slam for 200 damage costing 15 rage having a cast time of 0.7 seconds
Total: 400 damage in 2.7 seconds (=148.15 dps) with 1.85 excess rage per second
Weapon 3:
1 hit for 400 damage generating 40 rage having an interval of 4 seconds
1 slam for 400 damage costing 15 rage having a cast time of 0.7 seconds
Total: 800 damage in 4.7 seconds (=170,21 dps) with 5,32 excess rage per second
As long as slam's cast time and rage cost don't scale with weapon speed, slower weapons will always be better for slam dps.
That isn't true at all, a little example with a very big speed difference to show the point for scaling only (so it doesn't include additional slam damage):
Weapon 1: 100 damage per hit, 1.0 attackspeed, 10 rage per hit
Weapon 2: 200 damage per hit, 2.0 attackspeed, 20 rage per hit
Weapon 3: 400 damage per hit, 4.0 attackspeed, 40 rage per hit
With a cast time of 0.7 for slam(due to lagg) and a rage cost of 15, you get the following results:
Weapon 1:
3 hits for 100 damage each generating 10 rage each having an interval of 1 second each
2 slams for 100 damage each costing 15 rage each having a cast time of 0.7 seconds each
Total: 500 damage in 4.4 seconds (=113,64 dps) with 0 excess rage per second
Weapon 2:
1 hit for 200 damage generating 20 rage having an interval of 2 seconds
1 slam for 200 damage costing 15 rage having a cast time of 0.7 seconds
Total: 400 damage in 2.7 seconds (=148.15 dps) with 1.85 excess rage per second
Weapon 3:
1 hit for 400 damage generating 40 rage having an interval of 4 seconds
1 slam for 400 damage costing 15 rage having a cast time of 0.7 seconds
Total: 800 damage in 4.7 seconds (=170,21 dps) with 5,32 excess rage per second
As long as slam's cast time and rage cost don't scale with weapon speed, slower weapons will always be better for slam dps.
Despite the Haste nerf, the spreadsheet seems to rate 2x [Swiftsteel Bludgeon] as the highest DPS of all the combos I tried.What do people think is the ideal weapon setup now, pre-Warglaives?
Is the spreadsheet using the 2.2 values for haste, or prenerf? I just added a second Bludgeon in with a lower haste rating, assuming it was using prenerf.
I have been testing in Blasted lands the dual [Swiftsteel Bludgeon] combination and the Dragonstrike Mainhand and [Swiftsteel Bludgeon] offhand combination.For me the second came out better on recap.Not by a lot but about 30-50dps more ,the test was made 3 weeks ago so i dont remmember exactly how better dragonstrike and swiftstell is compared to 2xswiftsteel bludgeon but the proc of dragonstrike just makes it superior even at execute range.
Another reason why haste items are lacking (even before patch) is that they have no sockets compared to some of their equivalents (Red Belt of Battle, Grips of Silent Justice and Furious Shackles). Sockets cost less item points than the equivalent of 10 item points (or even 12 with the unique gem). After this patch I think Band of Devastation is the only worthwhile item with passive haste, mostly because of it's ilvl 151. But even then it's questionable.
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Originally Posted by woo-haa
Another reason why haste items are lacking (even before patch) is that they have no sockets compared to some of their equivalents (Red Belt of Battle, Grips of Silent Justice and Furious Shackles). Sockets cost less item points than the equivalent of 10 item points (or even 12 with the unique gem). After this patch I think Band of Devastation is the only worthwhile item with passive haste, mostly because of it's ilvl 151. But even then it's questionable.
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As a MS Warrior I'll try going for some haste as it increases not only white damage but also slam damage but even then it's probably not going to make a difference to ordinary stats at all.
Haste nerf hit kind of hard, I was using shoulders/ring/ring/bracers to test this week, next week going to wear less. Wow Web Stats
Rather sloppy kill, had feral druid from about 30%-0, but died at 9% with reck/deathwish/bloodlust brooch/insane strength up, so should have been at least 1850 dps.
Rather sloppy kill, had feral druid from about 30%-0, but died at 9% with reck/deathwish/bloodlust brooch/insane strength up, so should have been at least 1850 dps.
Edited onPatch 2.2.0
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Originally Posted by Natural
Note: Let ED() represent expected damage of an attack. Threat Efficiency(HS) = [ED(HS) - ED(white)] / [Threat(HS)] Threat Efficiency(Cleave) = [ED(Cleave) - ED(white)] / [Threat(Cleave)] The more "threat efficient" attack will depend on your gear. Period. |
Threat Efficiency(HS) = [ED(HS) - ED(white)] / [Threat(HS) - Threat(white)]=
[ED(HS) - ED(white)] / [Bonusthreat(HS) + ED(HS) - ED(white)]
So if I say that ED(HS) - ED(white) is 376 (this means that, on average, a HS hit will do 376 more damage than a white hit), I get:
TE(HS) = 376 / (196+376) = 0.66
For Cleave, the amount of extra damage from the hit/crit will not be the same. This is because a crit with cleave will add less damage than a crit with HS (70*2 vs 176*2), The difference depend on your crit rate. Using my gear and checking the damage in my spreadsheet, Cleave will cause approximately 220 more damage than a white hit. Then:
TE(Cleave) = 220 / (220+130) = 0.63
And I find that HS is a little bit better. In terms of damage/rage Cleave has no chance vs single target ofc.
This will of course change with gear, it's not easy to calculate without using spreadsheets (which I've done here).
edit: made some things a bit clearer
Last edited by Gruntle : 09/27/07 at 5:16 AM.
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Originally Posted by Graul
Is this to be used under the "rage is not a factor" mentality? Even if Cleave is superior in threat per damage, it's horribly inefficient in damage per rage on a single target.
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To be clear--I'm not necessarily suggesting to use cleave. I am only suggesting that we evaluate it correctly =)
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Originally Posted by Gruntle
Sure, you are right that the expected damage is what should be used here (I assumed the expected damage to be 130/150 damage), BUT in your calculations you use Threat(HS) = 196.
This is not true, the full threat from HS is Damage + Bonus threat (and the same for Cleave). So if I try to make a better formula to compute threat efficiency (calculated as the the ratio of damage (HS - white) and threat (HS - white)), I would use: Threat Efficiency(HS) = [ED(HS) - ED(white)] / [Threat(HS) - Threat(white)]= [ED(HS) - ED(white)] / [Bonusthreat(HS) + ED(HS) - ED(white)] So if I say that ED(HS) - ED(white) is 376 (i.e. your assumption), I get: TE(HS) = 376 / (196+376) = 0.66 |
To be clear, I will update my original post to clarify that the "threat" I am referring to is the ability threat--not the damage threat.
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For Cleave, the amount of extra damage from the hit/crit will not be the same. This is because a crit with cleave will add less damage than a crit with HS (70*2 vs 176*2), The difference depend on your crit rate, for my gear the difference is about 50. Using that, Cleave will get a 150 damage bonus from the hit/crit. Then: TE(Cleave) = 220 / (220+130) = 0.63 |
Again, I am not advocating that people use cleave. I am advocating that people avoid making blanket statements without understanding the real calculations involved in making a comparison.
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Originally Posted by Graul
Is the spreadsheet using the 2.2 values for haste, or prenerf? I just added a second Bludgeon in with a lower haste rating, assuming it was using prenerf.
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This is perhaps an aside, but with the relentless earthstorm diamond nerf, which would be the best meta gem for a 17/44 DW warrior at the SSC/TK level of progression? (1774AP battle, 27%crit battle, 191hit rating)
"As you might have noticed from reading above, there is a point on the table where you will have removed all hit from the table. At this point, adding more crit would be useless, since it would be ignored. This occurs at 21.4% crit for white attacks against a standard level 73 mob. You can, however, raise this cap by adding hit. Every 1% hit you add increases the crit cap by the same amount. Since there are no ways to reduce the dodge or glancing rates (except possibly weapon skill, who’s effects are still relatively unclear), there is a maximum amount of crit you can stack. This occurs for white attacks when you have capped your hit, which means the maximum useful amount of crit occurs at 49.4%. Note that yellow attacks have a much higher cap since they only have a 9% miss rate and they cannot glance."
Note on crit cap. I think you might have just misstyped or didn't think about this. The crit cap at 0 hit rating for white attacks is 42.4%. This is 100% minus 28, minus 5.6, minus 24. Looking at your hit table, it would be the addition of the hits (77.6-100 or 22.4) with the crits, 20. As DW, raidbuffed with LoTP and consumables, even mongoose procs don't put me over 42.4% (starting from around 31-32%). Adding hit will raise the crit cap from 42.4% but it's not as immediate an impedment as it used to be. Using just the base 9% hit, your crit cap is over 50%.
Note on crit cap. I think you might have just misstyped or didn't think about this. The crit cap at 0 hit rating for white attacks is 42.4%. This is 100% minus 28, minus 5.6, minus 24. Looking at your hit table, it would be the addition of the hits (77.6-100 or 22.4) with the crits, 20. As DW, raidbuffed with LoTP and consumables, even mongoose procs don't put me over 42.4% (starting from around 31-32%). Adding hit will raise the crit cap from 42.4% but it's not as immediate an impedment as it used to be. Using just the base 9% hit, your crit cap is over 50%.
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Originally Posted by Natural
These complications to the formula are unnecessary. The threat from the extra damage does not matter. The raw damage->threat conversion is the same no matter what ability you use. For comparison of heroic strike and cleave, the only thing that matters is the *useless threat* generated by the abilities themselves.
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Everything you say here I am incorporating into the "expected damage" of the ability. There's a decent amount of calculation that goes into this, including boss armor, level, and your gear. Again, I am not advocating that people use cleave. I am advocating that people avoid making blanket statements without understanding the real calculations involved in making a comparison. |
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Originally Posted by Gruntle
I don't agree, the extra damage produced by these abilities will also also produce more threat than a white swing, that means that you have to include that in the total threat produced by the ability to get the correct maths. The total threat from HS is more than from Cleve due to to two reasons, one being the extra added threat (196 vs 130), the other one being the extra added raw damage (176 vs 70). You can't just use the bonus threat to compare them.
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Yes, you are right that HS produces more threat than Cleave. But you do not have to add TWO bonuses onto the damage the ability causes to get the actual threat created, which is what you are arguing for.
Edited onPatch 2.2.0
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Originally Posted by Garithras
Let me try spelling it out a little differently. Total threat = (damage + bonus) * modifiers. We can agree on this, yes? HS threat = (damage + 176 [bonus damage] + 196 [threat bonus]) * mods. Cleave threat = (damage + 70 [bonus damage] + 130 [threat bonus]) * mods. The bonus damage is reflected directly in the combat log; there is no need to add additional bonus threat.
Yes, you are right that HS produces more threat than Cleave. But you do not have to add TWO bonuses onto the damage the ability causes to get the actual threat created, which is what you are arguing for. |
What both me and Natural agree on (I think
) is that the extra damage a HS or Cleave does is not only the bonus damage (176 or 70). The abilities also do extra damage (on average) because they miss less and don't glance. This is what I try to use in the Expected damage differences.Last edited by Gruntle : 09/27/07 at 4:19 AM.
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Originally Posted by Gruntle
Sorry you must have misunderstood me. I'm not adding the damage twice to the threat. I agree it might look like that in my post (will try to edit to make it clearer). I'm saying the same thing as you, the threat from HS is (damage+bonusthreat) *modifier (although the modifier is not very interesting in this case, since it's the same for both Cleave and HS).
What both me and Natural agree on (I think ) is that the extra damage a HS or Cleave does is not only the bonus damage (176 or 70). The abilities also do extra damage (on average) because they miss less and don't glance. This is what I try to use in the Expected damage differences. |
If you want to calculate TOTAL threat efficiency, as you said, you certainly have to include the threat caused by the damage. But that isn't necessary in order to decide which attack is more threat efficient because the raw damage-to-threat ratio is a constant. The only variables between the two abilities are the wasted threat and the expected damage.
Personally, I feel the problem with threat caps (for various classes) has less to do with their innate skills or abilities, but moreso with the fact that tank threat scales very poorly. (You can't "crit" a sunder.) So while most classes can put upgrades to use in their bottom line (DPS numbers) a tank rarely sees anything substancial that will increase their rage/threat generation. (Not to mention the flawed mechanic by which the more damage you mitigate the less threat you generate.) As a tank gets upgrades, their threat output tends to increase very little.
However, what I would like to see when the level cap is raised (and talents are reworked) would be a talent/ability to reduce threat in battle/zerker stance by X. (Say 5%, to a max of 10% for 2 talent points, something that would be 'on use' - so that it would not impact the ability of a DPS warrior to tank an instance.) I think DPS warriors are too hard on themselves since they do a great job of doing DPS in a situation where the threat ceiling is low. (IE, 110% vs 130% for ranged) I think the only class more screwed over by threat are the shamans.
However, what I would like to see when the level cap is raised (and talents are reworked) would be a talent/ability to reduce threat in battle/zerker stance by X. (Say 5%, to a max of 10% for 2 talent points, something that would be 'on use' - so that it would not impact the ability of a DPS warrior to tank an instance.) I think DPS warriors are too hard on themselves since they do a great job of doing DPS in a situation where the threat ceiling is low. (IE, 110% vs 130% for ranged) I think the only class more screwed over by threat are the shamans.
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Originally Posted by Jeho
Personally, I feel the problem with threat caps (for various classes) has less to do with their innate skills or abilities, but more so with the fact that tank threat scales very poorly. (You can't "crit" a sunder.) So while most classes can put upgrades to use in their bottom line (DPS numbers) a tank rarely sees anything substantial that will increase their rage/threat generation. (Not to mention the flawed mechanic by which the more damage you mitigate the less threat you generate.) As a tank gets upgrades, their threat output tends to increase very little.
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1) Boss tuning can be done more easily since the threat caps are more constant
2) TPS is more skill-based than gear based, letting lesser-geared tanks put out enough TPS for raiding
3) The Dev's don't have to worry about threat scaling out of control for highly geared warriors, which could potentially make threat meaningless if nobody had to worry about it.
However, what I do NOT like is when tank threat actually decreases with gear due to mitigation. Better gear leads to more mitigation, more mitigation reduces damage, less damage produces less rage, and finally less rage produces less threat. This chain of events has our tank actually downgrading his tanking gear or purposely not putting up debuffs like Tclap in order to get hit enough to build rage. Frankly, this mechanic sucks.
Has anyone seen a clear drop in their DPS post-patch, due to the Haste nerf?
I've also heard rumors of a proc rate nerf to [Dragonstrike], and considering the 150+ drop in my own DPS that I've seen, this might be part of the cause.
I've also heard rumors of a proc rate nerf to [Dragonstrike], and considering the 150+ drop in my own DPS that I've seen, this might be part of the cause.
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Originally Posted by Garre
Has anyone seen a clear drop in their DPS post-patch, due to the Haste nerf?
I've also heard rumors of a proc rate nerf to [Dragonstrike], and considering the 150+ drop in my own DPS that I've seen, this might be part of the cause. |
20.6% for me personally from Hyjal last week to Hyjal this week.
Would you say the hit to Dragonstrike is worth changing to the Claw off Al'ar or the T3 axe?
Xy.
Xy.
All thoughtout Hyjal yesterday I didn't notice a change in the proc rate of dragonstrike. Although I wasn't looking very closely.
In other news, Onyxia does Deep Breath more. Don't use the WoW forums as your empirical evidence.
At the end of the PTR testing phase I compared the live Dragonstrike to the PTR one, the weapon itself didn't seem to have a lower proc rate, but it might seem like it procs less because haste overall has been nerfed.
[quote=Jeho;490533
However, what I would like to see when the level cap is raised (and talents are reworked) would be a talent/ability to reduce threat in battle/zerker stance by X. (Say 5%, to a max of 10% for 2 talent points, something that would be 'on use' - so that it would not impact the ability of a DPS warrior to tank an instance.) [/QUOTE]
I had the idea of the next level of talents in fury would reduce threat by some amount, 10% or so to be close to the base of cat/rogue, while rampage was up. This would give a little more to the non-scaling rampage and be an 'active' ability.
However, what I would like to see when the level cap is raised (and talents are reworked) would be a talent/ability to reduce threat in battle/zerker stance by X. (Say 5%, to a max of 10% for 2 talent points, something that would be 'on use' - so that it would not impact the ability of a DPS warrior to tank an instance.) [/QUOTE]
I had the idea of the next level of talents in fury would reduce threat by some amount, 10% or so to be close to the base of cat/rogue, while rampage was up. This would give a little more to the non-scaling rampage and be an 'active' ability.
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Originally Posted by Natural
The only variables between the two abilities are the wasted threat and the expected damage.
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Anyway, I guess we just disagree, not much point discussing it further
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Originally Posted by Hozz
There was definitely a proc rate drop on Dragonstrike.
20.6% for me personally from Hyjal last week to Hyjal this week. |
I had 'Haste' proc 12 times in the 5+ minutes it took to kill Naj'entus. Now I can't find any WWS of previous weeks I am almost positive that is on par if not better then previous weeks.
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Originally Posted by Chadw
Chadw - WWS
I had 'Haste' proc 12 times in the 5+ minutes it took to kill Naj'entus. Now I can't find any WWS of previous weeks I am almost positive that is on par if not better then previous weeks. |
Edited onPatch 2.2.0
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Originally Posted by Gruntle
Well, the difference in expected damage means that also the threat from damage produced by the two abilities are different. You're correct in that the only two variables are bonus threat and expected damage, but the expected damage difference enters in two places in the efficiency. If this difference wouldn't make a difference the resulting threat efficiency should be the same regardless if you use only the bonus threat or the total threat. This is not the case.
Anyway, I guess we just disagree, not much point discussing it further |
I've used both my calculation (Bonus dmg / ability threat) and your calculation (Bonus dmg / Ability threat + bonus dmg threat) to prove that they give you the same result. Both calculations have Heroic strike & Cleave efficiencies intersecting at the same point. As I've said, the more efficient attack is the same regardless if you use the bonus threat or the total threat.
cleave_vs_hs_v002.xls - FileFront.com
Please share your comments. Thanks.
Notes (included in spreadsheet)
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-Heroic strike will always be more rage efficient -The two abilities have very similar threat efficiency for the 100-200 range -There are two graphs here to prove that the intersection of threat efficiency (where one becomes more efficient than the other) is independent of the raw +damage bonus provided to the abilities (e.x. 176 for HS). You can change this number and it will move the intersection point, but both calculations result in the same intersection -You may adjust the armor, crit rate, ability bonus, and ability threat in cells B64-B69. -The X axis represents the bonus obtained from converting your main hand attack from a white attack to a special attack. A special attack gains the following bonuses: 1) Cannot be a glancing blow 2) Base miss rate of ~8.6% rather than ~29% for dual wield 3) Gains +10% increased damage on critical strikes from impale -You must calculate the expected damage based on your attack table and weapon damage. This spreadsheet does not show these calculations. You should figure them out yourself. -As your gear gets better, you move farther to the right on the X axis |
Last edited by Natural : 09/28/07 at 11:47 AM.
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Originally Posted by Hozz
Do you have a DST? Anything else that would be causing 'Haste' in the logs, like Haste pots? I dont think there is an internal CD on the Dragonstrike but my proc rate is sucking, its definitely been less than pre-patch.
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Although I looked at our Hyjal WWS logs the day before and it was considerably lower so I guess I just got lucky?
And there definitely isn't an internal cooldown on dragonstrike.
Edited onPatch 2.2.0
I don't quite get the results of the spreadsheet. It's not constructed similarly to how I would evaluate the use of one versus the other.
Here is how I evaluated it:
[editted out my explanation as it is now redundant.]
You have a 100 dps, 2.5 speed weapon with 3500 AP. The boss takes 85% damage (15% mitigated), you hit 85% of the time (miss+dodge = .15) and you crit 35% of the time. Glancing blows are 24% at 75% damage.
White Hits: 26% - .85*(3500*2.5/14+2.5*100) = 744 damage
White Glance: 24% - .75*.85*(3500*2.5/14+2.5*100) = 558 damage
White Crit: 35% - 2*.85*(3500*2.5/14+2.5*100) = 1488 damage
White Miss: 15% - 0
Average White: .26*hit+.24*glance+.35*crit+0=580 damage
HS Crits: 35% - 2.2*.85*(3500*2.5/14+2.5*100+176)=1965 damage
HS Misses: 5.6% - 0
HS Hits: 59.4% - .85*(3500*2.5/14+2.5*100+176) = 893 damage
Average HS: .35*crits + .594*hits = 1219 damage
Damage returned on HS = HS - White = 639 damage
Aggro from HS = damage*.8*.7+196*.8*.7 = 467
Efficiency = Damage returned/Aggro Returned = 1.366
Cleave Crits: 35% - 2.2*.85*(3500*2.5/14+2.5*100+70)=1767
Cleave Misses: 5.6% - 0
Cleave Hits: 59.4% - .85*(3500*2.5/14+2.5*100+70) = 803
Average Cleave = .35*crits + .594*hits = 1096
Damage Returned on Cleave = Cleave - White = 516
Aggro from Cleave = damage *.8*.7+130*.8*.7 = 361
Efficiency = Damage returned/Aggro Returned = 1.426
Same result but easier for my small brain to follow.
Here is how I evaluated it:
[editted out my explanation as it is now redundant.]
You have a 100 dps, 2.5 speed weapon with 3500 AP. The boss takes 85% damage (15% mitigated), you hit 85% of the time (miss+dodge = .15) and you crit 35% of the time. Glancing blows are 24% at 75% damage.
White Hits: 26% - .85*(3500*2.5/14+2.5*100) = 744 damage
White Glance: 24% - .75*.85*(3500*2.5/14+2.5*100) = 558 damage
White Crit: 35% - 2*.85*(3500*2.5/14+2.5*100) = 1488 damage
White Miss: 15% - 0
Average White: .26*hit+.24*glance+.35*crit+0=580 damage
HS Crits: 35% - 2.2*.85*(3500*2.5/14+2.5*100+176)=1965 damage
HS Misses: 5.6% - 0
HS Hits: 59.4% - .85*(3500*2.5/14+2.5*100+176) = 893 damage
Average HS: .35*crits + .594*hits = 1219 damage
Damage returned on HS = HS - White = 639 damage
Aggro from HS = damage*.8*.7+196*.8*.7 = 467
Efficiency = Damage returned/Aggro Returned = 1.366
Cleave Crits: 35% - 2.2*.85*(3500*2.5/14+2.5*100+70)=1767
Cleave Misses: 5.6% - 0
Cleave Hits: 59.4% - .85*(3500*2.5/14+2.5*100+70) = 803
Average Cleave = .35*crits + .594*hits = 1096
Damage Returned on Cleave = Cleave - White = 516
Aggro from Cleave = damage *.8*.7+130*.8*.7 = 361
Efficiency = Damage returned/Aggro Returned = 1.426
Same result but easier for my small brain to follow.
Last edited by Grymm : 09/28/07 at 3:09 PM.
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Originally Posted by Grymm
If HS and Cleave had 0 WD and never crit, an average HS/Cleave would be more damage than an average MH swing because of the loss of glance and miss. You spread sheet does not seem to count this return as a gain. This would inflate the value actual expected damage from using either of these moves.
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Sorry, I started my post as I was going through the spreadsheet and my own math. I've been editting for the last couple minutes and not quite done.
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Originally Posted by Grymm
Adding an example.
You have a 100 dps, 2.5 speed weapon with 3500 AP. The boss takes 85% damage (15% mitigated), you hit 85% of the time (miss+dodge = .15) and you crit 35% of the time. Glancing blows are 24% at 75% damage.. . . . . Same result but easier for my small brain to follow. |
One note: In your calculation of HS bonus damage, you do not use the impale (2 crit multiplier instead of 2.2). Maybe since you are starting from expected returns already and not from base crit/hit/glance mechanics it doesn't matter.
Second note: My efficiencies will assume .8*.7 threat reduction as if I don't have salve I generally jump on top of the light paly (who will usually give me my salve) until he does so.
I originally found it difficult to use the spreadsheet as it does not start with player stats but rather the expected return of cleave/HS that you would already have needed to calculate from your stats. Looking at the X axis, I don't readily follow where I am on the graph.
Second note: My efficiencies will assume .8*.7 threat reduction as if I don't have salve I generally jump on top of the light paly (who will usually give me my salve) until he does so.
I originally found it difficult to use the spreadsheet as it does not start with player stats but rather the expected return of cleave/HS that you would already have needed to calculate from your stats. Looking at the X axis, I don't readily follow where I am on the graph.
Edited onPatch 2.2.0
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Originally Posted by Grymm
One note: In your calculation of HS bonus damage, you do not use the impale (2 crit multiplier instead of 2.2). Maybe since you are starting from expected returns already and not from base crit/hit/glance mechanics it doesn't matter.
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| Second note: My efficiencies will assume .8*.7 threat reduction as if I don't have salve I generally jump on top of the light paly (who will usually give me my salve) until he does so. |
| I originally found it difficult to use the spreadsheet as it does not start with player stats but rather the expected return of cleave/HS that you would already have needed to calculate from your stats. Looking at the X axis, I don't readily follow where I am on the graph. |
Thanks for taking a look at it. The spreadsheet was as much to prove the point to myself as it was to share with you guys.
Last edited by Natural : 09/28/07 at 3:26 PM.
Edited onPatch 2.2.0
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Originally Posted by Grymm
White Hits: 26% - .85*(3500*2.5/14+2.5*100) = 744 damage
White Glance: 24% - .75*.85*(3500*2.5/14+2.5*100) = 558 damage White Crit: 35% - 2*.85*(3500*2.5/14+2.5*100) = 1488 damage White Miss: 15% - 0 Average White: .26*hit+.24*glance+.35*crit+0=580 damage |
Edit: Here is a link to the updated calculator. cleave_vs_hs_v003.xls - FileFront.com
It now uses the impale bonus when calculating the damage bonus for heroic strike and cleave. It also adds a pseudo-attack-table calculation to determine your expected damage of a white & a special attack. It calculates the "special attack bonus" that you can use to find your place on the X axis. Please let me know if you find any errors.
Thanks.
Edit2: I am going to move this post to the DPS warrior spreadsheet. We can continue the discussion there since it is probably more appropriate.
Last edited by Natural : 09/28/07 at 4:01 PM.
You are correct. Something there doesn't work out. I set up to fall through in excel so I can play with the base values and see how things behave. I closed that spreadsheet without saving though as it was just scratch work so I'm not sure if I copied something over wrong or if I tinkered with the base values while copying stuff over thus changing what everything should add to. I probably won't reconstruct it. It was enough to just see the mechanics. The actual numbers don't mean much provided the behavior is the same.
Edited onPatch 2.2.0
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Originally Posted by Garithras
Let me try spelling it out a little differently. Total threat = (damage + bonus) * modifiers. We can agree on this, yes? HS threat = (damage + 176 [bonus damage] + 196 [threat bonus]) * mods. Cleave threat = (damage + 70 [bonus damage] + 130 [threat bonus]) * mods. The bonus damage is reflected directly in the combat log; there is no need to add additional bonus threat.
Yes, you are right that HS produces more threat than Cleave. But you do not have to add TWO bonuses onto the damage the ability causes to get the actual threat created, which is what you are arguing for. |
What both me and Natural agree on (I think
) is that the extra damage a HS or Cleave does is not only the bonus damage (176 or 70). The abilities also do extra damage (on average) because they miss less and don't glance. This is what I try to use in the Expected damage differences.Last edited by Gruntle : 09/27/07 at 4:19 AM.
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Originally Posted by Gruntle
Sorry you must have misunderstood me. I'm not adding the damage twice to the threat. I agree it might look like that in my post (will try to edit to make it clearer). I'm saying the same thing as you, the threat from HS is (damage+bonusthreat) *modifier (although the modifier is not very interesting in this case, since it's the same for both Cleave and HS).
What both me and Natural agree on (I think ) is that the extra damage a HS or Cleave does is not only the bonus damage (176 or 70). The abilities also do extra damage (on average) because they miss less and don't glance. This is what I try to use in the Expected damage differences. |
If you want to calculate TOTAL threat efficiency, as you said, you certainly have to include the threat caused by the damage. But that isn't necessary in order to decide which attack is more threat efficient because the raw damage-to-threat ratio is a constant. The only variables between the two abilities are the wasted threat and the expected damage.
Personally, I feel the problem with threat caps (for various classes) has less to do with their innate skills or abilities, but moreso with the fact that tank threat scales very poorly. (You can't "crit" a sunder.) So while most classes can put upgrades to use in their bottom line (DPS numbers) a tank rarely sees anything substancial that will increase their rage/threat generation. (Not to mention the flawed mechanic by which the more damage you mitigate the less threat you generate.) As a tank gets upgrades, their threat output tends to increase very little.
However, what I would like to see when the level cap is raised (and talents are reworked) would be a talent/ability to reduce threat in battle/zerker stance by X. (Say 5%, to a max of 10% for 2 talent points, something that would be 'on use' - so that it would not impact the ability of a DPS warrior to tank an instance.) I think DPS warriors are too hard on themselves since they do a great job of doing DPS in a situation where the threat ceiling is low. (IE, 110% vs 130% for ranged) I think the only class more screwed over by threat are the shamans.
However, what I would like to see when the level cap is raised (and talents are reworked) would be a talent/ability to reduce threat in battle/zerker stance by X. (Say 5%, to a max of 10% for 2 talent points, something that would be 'on use' - so that it would not impact the ability of a DPS warrior to tank an instance.) I think DPS warriors are too hard on themselves since they do a great job of doing DPS in a situation where the threat ceiling is low. (IE, 110% vs 130% for ranged) I think the only class more screwed over by threat are the shamans.
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Originally Posted by Jeho
Personally, I feel the problem with threat caps (for various classes) has less to do with their innate skills or abilities, but more so with the fact that tank threat scales very poorly. (You can't "crit" a sunder.) So while most classes can put upgrades to use in their bottom line (DPS numbers) a tank rarely sees anything substantial that will increase their rage/threat generation. (Not to mention the flawed mechanic by which the more damage you mitigate the less threat you generate.) As a tank gets upgrades, their threat output tends to increase very little.
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1) Boss tuning can be done more easily since the threat caps are more constant
2) TPS is more skill-based than gear based, letting lesser-geared tanks put out enough TPS for raiding
3) The Dev's don't have to worry about threat scaling out of control for highly geared warriors, which could potentially make threat meaningless if nobody had to worry about it.
However, what I do NOT like is when tank threat actually decreases with gear due to mitigation. Better gear leads to more mitigation, more mitigation reduces damage, less damage produces less rage, and finally less rage produces less threat. This chain of events has our tank actually downgrading his tanking gear or purposely not putting up debuffs like Tclap in order to get hit enough to build rage. Frankly, this mechanic sucks.
Has anyone seen a clear drop in their DPS post-patch, due to the Haste nerf?
I've also heard rumors of a proc rate nerf to [Dragonstrike], and considering the 150+ drop in my own DPS that I've seen, this might be part of the cause.
I've also heard rumors of a proc rate nerf to [Dragonstrike], and considering the 150+ drop in my own DPS that I've seen, this might be part of the cause.
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Originally Posted by Garre
Has anyone seen a clear drop in their DPS post-patch, due to the Haste nerf?
I've also heard rumors of a proc rate nerf to [Dragonstrike], and considering the 150+ drop in my own DPS that I've seen, this might be part of the cause. |
20.6% for me personally from Hyjal last week to Hyjal this week.
Would you say the hit to Dragonstrike is worth changing to the Claw off Al'ar or the T3 axe?
Xy.
Xy.
All thoughtout Hyjal yesterday I didn't notice a change in the proc rate of dragonstrike. Although I wasn't looking very closely.
In other news, Onyxia does Deep Breath more. Don't use the WoW forums as your empirical evidence.
At the end of the PTR testing phase I compared the live Dragonstrike to the PTR one, the weapon itself didn't seem to have a lower proc rate, but it might seem like it procs less because haste overall has been nerfed.
[quote=Jeho;490533
However, what I would like to see when the level cap is raised (and talents are reworked) would be a talent/ability to reduce threat in battle/zerker stance by X. (Say 5%, to a max of 10% for 2 talent points, something that would be 'on use' - so that it would not impact the ability of a DPS warrior to tank an instance.) [/QUOTE]
I had the idea of the next level of talents in fury would reduce threat by some amount, 10% or so to be close to the base of cat/rogue, while rampage was up. This would give a little more to the non-scaling rampage and be an 'active' ability.
However, what I would like to see when the level cap is raised (and talents are reworked) would be a talent/ability to reduce threat in battle/zerker stance by X. (Say 5%, to a max of 10% for 2 talent points, something that would be 'on use' - so that it would not impact the ability of a DPS warrior to tank an instance.) [/QUOTE]
I had the idea of the next level of talents in fury would reduce threat by some amount, 10% or so to be close to the base of cat/rogue, while rampage was up. This would give a little more to the non-scaling rampage and be an 'active' ability.
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Originally Posted by Natural
The only variables between the two abilities are the wasted threat and the expected damage.
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Anyway, I guess we just disagree, not much point discussing it further
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Originally Posted by Hozz
There was definitely a proc rate drop on Dragonstrike.
20.6% for me personally from Hyjal last week to Hyjal this week. |
I had 'Haste' proc 12 times in the 5+ minutes it took to kill Naj'entus. Now I can't find any WWS of previous weeks I am almost positive that is on par if not better then previous weeks.
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Originally Posted by Chadw
Chadw - WWS
I had 'Haste' proc 12 times in the 5+ minutes it took to kill Naj'entus. Now I can't find any WWS of previous weeks I am almost positive that is on par if not better then previous weeks. |
Edited onPatch 2.2.0
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Originally Posted by Gruntle
Well, the difference in expected damage means that also the threat from damage produced by the two abilities are different. You're correct in that the only two variables are bonus threat and expected damage, but the expected damage difference enters in two places in the efficiency. If this difference wouldn't make a difference the resulting threat efficiency should be the same regardless if you use only the bonus threat or the total threat. This is not the case.
Anyway, I guess we just disagree, not much point discussing it further |
I've used both my calculation (Bonus dmg / ability threat) and your calculation (Bonus dmg / Ability threat + bonus dmg threat) to prove that they give you the same result. Both calculations have Heroic strike & Cleave efficiencies intersecting at the same point. As I've said, the more efficient attack is the same regardless if you use the bonus threat or the total threat.
cleave_vs_hs_v002.xls - FileFront.com
Please share your comments. Thanks.
Notes (included in spreadsheet)
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-Heroic strike will always be more rage efficient -The two abilities have very similar threat efficiency for the 100-200 range -There are two graphs here to prove that the intersection of threat efficiency (where one becomes more efficient than the other) is independent of the raw +damage bonus provided to the abilities (e.x. 176 for HS). You can change this number and it will move the intersection point, but both calculations result in the same intersection -You may adjust the armor, crit rate, ability bonus, and ability threat in cells B64-B69. -The X axis represents the bonus obtained from converting your main hand attack from a white attack to a special attack. A special attack gains the following bonuses: 1) Cannot be a glancing blow 2) Base miss rate of ~8.6% rather than ~29% for dual wield 3) Gains +10% increased damage on critical strikes from impale -You must calculate the expected damage based on your attack table and weapon damage. This spreadsheet does not show these calculations. You should figure them out yourself. -As your gear gets better, you move farther to the right on the X axis |
Last edited by Natural : 09/28/07 at 11:47 AM.
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Originally Posted by Hozz
Do you have a DST? Anything else that would be causing 'Haste' in the logs, like Haste pots? I dont think there is an internal CD on the Dragonstrike but my proc rate is sucking, its definitely been less than pre-patch.
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Although I looked at our Hyjal WWS logs the day before and it was considerably lower so I guess I just got lucky?
And there definitely isn't an internal cooldown on dragonstrike.
Edited onPatch 2.2.0
I don't quite get the results of the spreadsheet. It's not constructed similarly to how I would evaluate the use of one versus the other.
Here is how I evaluated it:
[editted out my explanation as it is now redundant.]
You have a 100 dps, 2.5 speed weapon with 3500 AP. The boss takes 85% damage (15% mitigated), you hit 85% of the time (miss+dodge = .15) and you crit 35% of the time. Glancing blows are 24% at 75% damage.
White Hits: 26% - .85*(3500*2.5/14+2.5*100) = 744 damage
White Glance: 24% - .75*.85*(3500*2.5/14+2.5*100) = 558 damage
White Crit: 35% - 2*.85*(3500*2.5/14+2.5*100) = 1488 damage
White Miss: 15% - 0
Average White: .26*hit+.24*glance+.35*crit+0=580 damage
HS Crits: 35% - 2.2*.85*(3500*2.5/14+2.5*100+176)=1965 damage
HS Misses: 5.6% - 0
HS Hits: 59.4% - .85*(3500*2.5/14+2.5*100+176) = 893 damage
Average HS: .35*crits + .594*hits = 1219 damage
Damage returned on HS = HS - White = 639 damage
Aggro from HS = damage*.8*.7+196*.8*.7 = 467
Efficiency = Damage returned/Aggro Returned = 1.366
Cleave Crits: 35% - 2.2*.85*(3500*2.5/14+2.5*100+70)=1767
Cleave Misses: 5.6% - 0
Cleave Hits: 59.4% - .85*(3500*2.5/14+2.5*100+70) = 803
Average Cleave = .35*crits + .594*hits = 1096
Damage Returned on Cleave = Cleave - White = 516
Aggro from Cleave = damage *.8*.7+130*.8*.7 = 361
Efficiency = Damage returned/Aggro Returned = 1.426
Same result but easier for my small brain to follow.
Here is how I evaluated it:
[editted out my explanation as it is now redundant.]
You have a 100 dps, 2.5 speed weapon with 3500 AP. The boss takes 85% damage (15% mitigated), you hit 85% of the time (miss+dodge = .15) and you crit 35% of the time. Glancing blows are 24% at 75% damage.
White Hits: 26% - .85*(3500*2.5/14+2.5*100) = 744 damage
White Glance: 24% - .75*.85*(3500*2.5/14+2.5*100) = 558 damage
White Crit: 35% - 2*.85*(3500*2.5/14+2.5*100) = 1488 damage
White Miss: 15% - 0
Average White: .26*hit+.24*glance+.35*crit+0=580 damage
HS Crits: 35% - 2.2*.85*(3500*2.5/14+2.5*100+176)=1965 damage
HS Misses: 5.6% - 0
HS Hits: 59.4% - .85*(3500*2.5/14+2.5*100+176) = 893 damage
Average HS: .35*crits + .594*hits = 1219 damage
Damage returned on HS = HS - White = 639 damage
Aggro from HS = damage*.8*.7+196*.8*.7 = 467
Efficiency = Damage returned/Aggro Returned = 1.366
Cleave Crits: 35% - 2.2*.85*(3500*2.5/14+2.5*100+70)=1767
Cleave Misses: 5.6% - 0
Cleave Hits: 59.4% - .85*(3500*2.5/14+2.5*100+70) = 803
Average Cleave = .35*crits + .594*hits = 1096
Damage Returned on Cleave = Cleave - White = 516
Aggro from Cleave = damage *.8*.7+130*.8*.7 = 361
Efficiency = Damage returned/Aggro Returned = 1.426
Same result but easier for my small brain to follow.
Last edited by Grymm : 09/28/07 at 3:09 PM.
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Originally Posted by Grymm
If HS and Cleave had 0 WD and never crit, an average HS/Cleave would be more damage than an average MH swing because of the loss of glance and miss. You spread sheet does not seem to count this return as a gain. This would inflate the value actual expected damage from using either of these moves.
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Sorry, I started my post as I was going through the spreadsheet and my own math. I've been editting for the last couple minutes and not quite done.
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Originally Posted by Grymm
Adding an example.
You have a 100 dps, 2.5 speed weapon with 3500 AP. The boss takes 85% damage (15% mitigated), you hit 85% of the time (miss+dodge = .15) and you crit 35% of the time. Glancing blows are 24% at 75% damage.. . . . . Same result but easier for my small brain to follow. |
One note: In your calculation of HS bonus damage, you do not use the impale (2 crit multiplier instead of 2.2). Maybe since you are starting from expected returns already and not from base crit/hit/glance mechanics it doesn't matter.
Second note: My efficiencies will assume .8*.7 threat reduction as if I don't have salve I generally jump on top of the light paly (who will usually give me my salve) until he does so.
I originally found it difficult to use the spreadsheet as it does not start with player stats but rather the expected return of cleave/HS that you would already have needed to calculate from your stats. Looking at the X axis, I don't readily follow where I am on the graph.
Second note: My efficiencies will assume .8*.7 threat reduction as if I don't have salve I generally jump on top of the light paly (who will usually give me my salve) until he does so.
I originally found it difficult to use the spreadsheet as it does not start with player stats but rather the expected return of cleave/HS that you would already have needed to calculate from your stats. Looking at the X axis, I don't readily follow where I am on the graph.
Edited onPatch 2.2.0
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Originally Posted by Grymm
One note: In your calculation of HS bonus damage, you do not use the impale (2 crit multiplier instead of 2.2). Maybe since you are starting from expected returns already and not from base crit/hit/glance mechanics it doesn't matter.
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| Second note: My efficiencies will assume .8*.7 threat reduction as if I don't have salve I generally jump on top of the light paly (who will usually give me my salve) until he does so. |
| I originally found it difficult to use the spreadsheet as it does not start with player stats but rather the expected return of cleave/HS that you would already have needed to calculate from your stats. Looking at the X axis, I don't readily follow where I am on the graph. |
Thanks for taking a look at it. The spreadsheet was as much to prove the point to myself as it was to share with you guys.
Last edited by Natural : 09/28/07 at 3:26 PM.
Edited onPatch 2.2.0
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Originally Posted by Grymm
White Hits: 26% - .85*(3500*2.5/14+2.5*100) = 744 damage
White Glance: 24% - .75*.85*(3500*2.5/14+2.5*100) = 558 damage White Crit: 35% - 2*.85*(3500*2.5/14+2.5*100) = 1488 damage White Miss: 15% - 0 Average White: .26*hit+.24*glance+.35*crit+0=580 damage |
Edit: Here is a link to the updated calculator. cleave_vs_hs_v003.xls - FileFront.com
It now uses the impale bonus when calculating the damage bonus for heroic strike and cleave. It also adds a pseudo-attack-table calculation to determine your expected damage of a white & a special attack. It calculates the "special attack bonus" that you can use to find your place on the X axis. Please let me know if you find any errors.
Thanks.
Edit2: I am going to move this post to the DPS warrior spreadsheet. We can continue the discussion there since it is probably more appropriate.
Last edited by Natural : 09/28/07 at 4:01 PM.
You are correct. Something there doesn't work out. I set up to fall through in excel so I can play with the base values and see how things behave. I closed that spreadsheet without saving though as it was just scratch work so I'm not sure if I copied something over wrong or if I tinkered with the base values while copying stuff over thus changing what everything should add to. I probably won't reconstruct it. It was enough to just see the mechanics. The actual numbers don't mean much provided the behavior is the same.
I'm wondering if anyone has any insight on the worth of the untalented Slam (lets say you have an arms/prot hybrid spec so you cant get Imp. Slam). Will using the autoattack, slam, instant rotation still result in higher DPS with a 1.5s cast Slam than simply spamming MS and WW?
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Originally Posted by Natural
I think your calculator had a typo here. Your result should be 848.
Edit: Here is a link to the updated calculator. cleave_vs_hs_v003.xls - FileFront.com It now uses the impale bonus when calculating the damage bonus for heroic strike and cleave. It also adds a pseudo-attack-table calculation to determine your expected damage of a white & a special attack. It calculates the "special attack bonus" that you can use to find your place on the X axis. Please let me know if you find any errors. Thanks. Edit2: I am going to move this post to the DPS warrior spreadsheet. We can continue the discussion there since it is probably more appropriate. |
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Originally Posted by invalid
Will using the autoattack, slam, instant rotation still result in higher DPS with a 1.5s cast Slam than simply spamming MS and WW?
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There is a dps warrior in my guild with Wicked Axe of the Plains, Talon of Azshara, and Blade of Infamy.
I thought the best combo would be Azshara MH/Infamy OH, but he thinks having Axe MH/Talon OH is the best.
What are your opinions?
I thought the best combo would be Azshara MH/Infamy OH, but he thinks having Axe MH/Talon OH is the best.
What are your opinions?
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Originally Posted by frmorrison
There is a dps warrior in my guild with Wicked Axe of the Plains, Talon of Azshara, and Blade of Infamy.
I thought the best combo would be Azshara MH/Infamy OH, but he thinks having Axe MH/Talon OH is the best. What are your opinions? |
I have looked at a lot of WWS reports and it seems I hit as hard as some of the warriors I have seen do 1000+ dps. However I am stuck around 700 dps. So my question is: Is it more dps efficient to have huge buff spikes (where you would have a haste pot, a trinket, and DW all up at the same time), or is it better to spread them out and keep yourself buffed more consistantly?
Obviously you will benefit much more from a haste pot the more other buffs are active. Usually I spare timers like deathwish and recklessness to use with a haste pot.
Edited onPatch 2.2.0
thank you for reply
Last edited by Buttlern : 09/30/07 at 9:26 AM. Reason: got my question answered
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Originally Posted by Buttlern
Hi everyone. I have a question regarding weapons and armor pene stats.
Im playing in a endgame guild, we farm everything and so on. Im getting next t6 legs to get my 4part t6 dps bonus. And now what I am asking is this, should I change from Rising Tide MH to the Supremus mace if I get the chance? Some input here would be nice. Best regards Buttlern |
Edited onPatch 2.2.0
So each time anyone mentions weapon skill, the actual +hit you get vs a lvl 73 for +5 skill seems to just keep going up and up. "You get +1% for being an Orc", "You get +2% for being an Orc" now you apparently get +3% for being an Orc. At this rate, I'll end up getting +5% hit within the next few weeks, yet somehow my DPS will remain the same.
If you are counting the combined -doge and -parry, then yes, it's a factor on how many swings will actually land, but it's still not added +hit over the base.
If you are counting the combined -doge and -parry, then yes, it's a factor on how many swings will actually land, but it's still not added +hit over the base.
Last edited by Graul : 10/01/07 at 3:26 AM.
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Originally Posted by Graul
So each time anyone mentions weapon skill, the actual +hit you get vs a lvl 73 for +5 skill seems to just keep going up and up. "You get +1% for being an Orc", "You get +2% for being an Orc" now you apparently get +3% for being an Orc. At this rate, I'll end up getting +5% hit within the next few weeks, yet somehow my DPS will remain the same.
If you are counting the combined -doge and -parry, then yes, it's a factor on how many swings will actually land, but it's still not added +hit over the base. |
[Rogue/Warrior] Weapon Skill Adjustment Discussion
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Originally Posted by Graul
So each time anyone mentions weapon skill, the actual +hit you get vs a lvl 73 for +5 skill seems to just keep going up and up. "You get +1% for being an Orc", "You get +2% for being an Orc" now you apparently get +3% for being an Orc. At this rate, I'll end up getting +5% hit within the next few weeks, yet somehow my DPS will remain the same.
If you are counting the combined -doge and -parry, then yes, it's a factor on how many swings will actually land, but it's still not added +hit over the base. |
If you read the link provided by Asur you will see that it is 3%, but only vs boss mobs (lvl 73) and only if you have no other sources of weapon skill (i.e. with 355 weapon skill that you have as an orc with axes, you will always have 3% smaller chance to miss). After 355 weapon skill, it only adds 0.1% hit per point.
The purpose of stacking cooldowns works something like this:
Start with deathwish and haste pots. Deathwish buffs your damage per swing for X seconds while the haste pot buffs your swings speed for Y seconds. Using them separately, you get 20% extra damage for X seconds and something percent more white damage for Y seconds. When you use them at the same time, you get something percent more swings which also do 20% more damage. You have gotten off more swings under deathwish and have increased the return of deathwish. By stacking reckless, deathwish, heroism, and a haste pot all at the same time, you are getting a ridiculous number of swings that are all crits and all do 20% more damage. Separately, the number of swings affected by deathwish and reckless without haste benefits would be much lower. Simply, instead of having 50 hits get +20% damage, you can ramp that up to 75 or 100 hits.
Start with deathwish and haste pots. Deathwish buffs your damage per swing for X seconds while the haste pot buffs your swings speed for Y seconds. Using them separately, you get 20% extra damage for X seconds and something percent more white damage for Y seconds. When you use them at the same time, you get something percent more swings which also do 20% more damage. You have gotten off more swings under deathwish and have increased the return of deathwish. By stacking reckless, deathwish, heroism, and a haste pot all at the same time, you are getting a ridiculous number of swings that are all crits and all do 20% more damage. Separately, the number of swings affected by deathwish and reckless without haste benefits would be much lower. Simply, instead of having 50 hits get +20% damage, you can ramp that up to 75 or 100 hits.
now that i think about it i agree with all who replied. it would be better to spike your buffs all at once so your dps is most effective. that way when you dps is least effective you can run around in boss fights and bandage, etc.
Maximizing DPS in high latency
I apologize in advance if I am asking a relatively naive question. As an oceanic raider with relatively high latency (usually around 500ms), I was wondering if performing the standard slam rotation would actually do less DPS than just MS+WW+HS(if rage permits). I'm using Quartz's swing timer (which unfortunately does not incorporate latency into it like it's cast bar 
) and I find it difficult to accurately judge how long before the swing timer bar ends to start up my slam. As a result, I often compensate a little and end up starting the slam almost half a second after the swing has landed. This clearly hurts my DPS quite a bit as even with talented slam, I am delaying each white hit by at least 1s. I believe for my level of gear (which although is pretty crap), I should be putting out much more DPS than 600-ish on static fights. Any recommendations would be appreciated
) and I find it difficult to accurately judge how long before the swing timer bar ends to start up my slam. As a result, I often compensate a little and end up starting the slam almost half a second after the swing has landed. This clearly hurts my DPS quite a bit as even with talented slam, I am delaying each white hit by at least 1s. I believe for my level of gear (which although is pretty crap), I should be putting out much more DPS than 600-ish on static fights. Any recommendations would be appreciated Practice on Blasted Lands mobs. I played in Asia until last week and my latency was 250ish all of the time. You can overcome it but you need to be hyper alert.
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Originally Posted by Plushy
I apologize in advance if I am asking a relatively naive question. As an oceanic raider with relatively high latency (usually around 500ms), I was wondering if performing the standard slam rotation would actually do less DPS than just MS+WW+HS(if rage permits). I'm using Quartz's swing timer (which unfortunately does not incorporate latency into it like it's cast bar
) and I find it difficult to accurately judge how long before the swing timer bar ends to start up my slam. As a result, I often compensate a little and end up starting the slam almost half a second after the swing has landed. This clearly hurts my DPS quite a bit as even with talented slam, I am delaying each white hit by at least 1s. I believe for my level of gear (which although is pretty crap), I should be putting out much more DPS than 600-ish on static fights. Any recommendations would be appreciated |
Or just spec dualweild which doesnt require such a good connection and perfect slam rotation .I even abandoned arms cause with my 250-300ms I wasnt satisfied with my slam rotations.
Any theorycraft done on whether "spiking" your buffs is better to do during execute spam or during normal BT/WW weaving?
Death Wish can obviously be used at least twice, threat permitting, but Recklessness can not.
Also, any point being strict about keeping Battle Shout and Rampage up during Execute? (Shout for rogues seems a given, Rampage seems a bit less vital.)
Death Wish can obviously be used at least twice, threat permitting, but Recklessness can not.
Also, any point being strict about keeping Battle Shout and Rampage up during Execute? (Shout for rogues seems a given, Rampage seems a bit less vital.)
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Originally Posted by Myko
Any theorycraft done on whether "spiking" your buffs is better to do during execute spam or during normal BT/WW weaving?
Death Wish can obviously be used at least twice, threat permitting, but Recklessness can not. |
Pretty much the same is true for all other timers as well.
More AP during execute range will yield in more rage from white attacks, ergo higher executes. If keeping up rampage is worth the GCD would need some more intensive calculations. Since you will do more damage from white attacks as well I would guess keeping rampage up is worth it.
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Originally Posted by Myko
Also, any point being strict about keeping Battle Shout and Rampage up during Execute?
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Recklessness should always be used with death wish and a haste potion. Always.
thundering skyfire or relentless earthstorm?
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Originally Posted by Heaton
thundering skyfire or relentless earthstorm?
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If someone could find that it would be very much appreciated as I'm trying to make the same decision for my T6 helm.
The crit metagem is still the best, even when "nerfed".
I'm wondering if anyone has any insight on the worth of the untalented Slam (lets say you have an arms/prot hybrid spec so you cant get Imp. Slam). Will using the autoattack, slam, instant rotation still result in higher DPS with a 1.5s cast Slam than simply spamming MS and WW?
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Originally Posted by Natural
I think your calculator had a typo here. Your result should be 848.
Edit: Here is a link to the updated calculator. cleave_vs_hs_v003.xls - FileFront.com It now uses the impale bonus when calculating the damage bonus for heroic strike and cleave. It also adds a pseudo-attack-table calculation to determine your expected damage of a white & a special attack. It calculates the "special attack bonus" that you can use to find your place on the X axis. Please let me know if you find any errors. Thanks. Edit2: I am going to move this post to the DPS warrior spreadsheet. We can continue the discussion there since it is probably more appropriate. |
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Originally Posted by invalid
Will using the autoattack, slam, instant rotation still result in higher DPS with a 1.5s cast Slam than simply spamming MS and WW?
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There is a dps warrior in my guild with Wicked Axe of the Plains, Talon of Azshara, and Blade of Infamy.
I thought the best combo would be Azshara MH/Infamy OH, but he thinks having Axe MH/Talon OH is the best.
What are your opinions?
I thought the best combo would be Azshara MH/Infamy OH, but he thinks having Axe MH/Talon OH is the best.
What are your opinions?
|
Originally Posted by frmorrison
There is a dps warrior in my guild with Wicked Axe of the Plains, Talon of Azshara, and Blade of Infamy.
I thought the best combo would be Azshara MH/Infamy OH, but he thinks having Axe MH/Talon OH is the best. What are your opinions? |
I have looked at a lot of WWS reports and it seems I hit as hard as some of the warriors I have seen do 1000+ dps. However I am stuck around 700 dps. So my question is: Is it more dps efficient to have huge buff spikes (where you would have a haste pot, a trinket, and DW all up at the same time), or is it better to spread them out and keep yourself buffed more consistantly?
Obviously you will benefit much more from a haste pot the more other buffs are active. Usually I spare timers like deathwish and recklessness to use with a haste pot.
Edited onPatch 2.2.0
thank you for reply
Last edited by Buttlern : 09/30/07 at 9:26 AM. Reason: got my question answered
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Originally Posted by Buttlern
Hi everyone. I have a question regarding weapons and armor pene stats.
Im playing in a endgame guild, we farm everything and so on. Im getting next t6 legs to get my 4part t6 dps bonus. And now what I am asking is this, should I change from Rising Tide MH to the Supremus mace if I get the chance? Some input here would be nice. Best regards Buttlern |
Edited onPatch 2.2.0
So each time anyone mentions weapon skill, the actual +hit you get vs a lvl 73 for +5 skill seems to just keep going up and up. "You get +1% for being an Orc", "You get +2% for being an Orc" now you apparently get +3% for being an Orc. At this rate, I'll end up getting +5% hit within the next few weeks, yet somehow my DPS will remain the same.
If you are counting the combined -doge and -parry, then yes, it's a factor on how many swings will actually land, but it's still not added +hit over the base.
If you are counting the combined -doge and -parry, then yes, it's a factor on how many swings will actually land, but it's still not added +hit over the base.
Last edited by Graul : 10/01/07 at 3:26 AM.
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Originally Posted by Graul
So each time anyone mentions weapon skill, the actual +hit you get vs a lvl 73 for +5 skill seems to just keep going up and up. "You get +1% for being an Orc", "You get +2% for being an Orc" now you apparently get +3% for being an Orc. At this rate, I'll end up getting +5% hit within the next few weeks, yet somehow my DPS will remain the same.
If you are counting the combined -doge and -parry, then yes, it's a factor on how many swings will actually land, but it's still not added +hit over the base. |
[Rogue/Warrior] Weapon Skill Adjustment Discussion
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Originally Posted by Graul
So each time anyone mentions weapon skill, the actual +hit you get vs a lvl 73 for +5 skill seems to just keep going up and up. "You get +1% for being an Orc", "You get +2% for being an Orc" now you apparently get +3% for being an Orc. At this rate, I'll end up getting +5% hit within the next few weeks, yet somehow my DPS will remain the same.
If you are counting the combined -doge and -parry, then yes, it's a factor on how many swings will actually land, but it's still not added +hit over the base. |
If you read the link provided by Asur you will see that it is 3%, but only vs boss mobs (lvl 73) and only if you have no other sources of weapon skill (i.e. with 355 weapon skill that you have as an orc with axes, you will always have 3% smaller chance to miss). After 355 weapon skill, it only adds 0.1% hit per point.
The purpose of stacking cooldowns works something like this:
Start with deathwish and haste pots. Deathwish buffs your damage per swing for X seconds while the haste pot buffs your swings speed for Y seconds. Using them separately, you get 20% extra damage for X seconds and something percent more white damage for Y seconds. When you use them at the same time, you get something percent more swings which also do 20% more damage. You have gotten off more swings under deathwish and have increased the return of deathwish. By stacking reckless, deathwish, heroism, and a haste pot all at the same time, you are getting a ridiculous number of swings that are all crits and all do 20% more damage. Separately, the number of swings affected by deathwish and reckless without haste benefits would be much lower. Simply, instead of having 50 hits get +20% damage, you can ramp that up to 75 or 100 hits.
Start with deathwish and haste pots. Deathwish buffs your damage per swing for X seconds while the haste pot buffs your swings speed for Y seconds. Using them separately, you get 20% extra damage for X seconds and something percent more white damage for Y seconds. When you use them at the same time, you get something percent more swings which also do 20% more damage. You have gotten off more swings under deathwish and have increased the return of deathwish. By stacking reckless, deathwish, heroism, and a haste pot all at the same time, you are getting a ridiculous number of swings that are all crits and all do 20% more damage. Separately, the number of swings affected by deathwish and reckless without haste benefits would be much lower. Simply, instead of having 50 hits get +20% damage, you can ramp that up to 75 or 100 hits.
now that i think about it i agree with all who replied. it would be better to spike your buffs all at once so your dps is most effective. that way when you dps is least effective you can run around in boss fights and bandage, etc.
Maximizing DPS in high latency
I apologize in advance if I am asking a relatively naive question. As an oceanic raider with relatively high latency (usually around 500ms), I was wondering if performing the standard slam rotation would actually do less DPS than just MS+WW+HS(if rage permits). I'm using Quartz's swing timer (which unfortunately does not incorporate latency into it like it's cast bar ) and I find it difficult to accurately judge how long before the swing timer bar ends to start up my slam. As a result, I often compensate a little and end up starting the slam almost half a second after the swing has landed. This clearly hurts my DPS quite a bit as even with talented slam, I am delaying each white hit by at least 1s. I believe for my level of gear (which although is pretty crap), I should be putting out much more DPS than 600-ish on static fights. Any recommendations would be appreciated
) and I find it difficult to accurately judge how long before the swing timer bar ends to start up my slam. As a result, I often compensate a little and end up starting the slam almost half a second after the swing has landed. This clearly hurts my DPS quite a bit as even with talented slam, I am delaying each white hit by at least 1s. I believe for my level of gear (which although is pretty crap), I should be putting out much more DPS than 600-ish on static fights. Any recommendations would be appreciated Practice on Blasted Lands mobs. I played in Asia until last week and my latency was 250ish all of the time. You can overcome it but you need to be hyper alert.
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Originally Posted by Plushy
I apologize in advance if I am asking a relatively naive question. As an oceanic raider with relatively high latency (usually around 500ms), I was wondering if performing the standard slam rotation would actually do less DPS than just MS+WW+HS(if rage permits). I'm using Quartz's swing timer (which unfortunately does not incorporate latency into it like it's cast bar
) and I find it difficult to accurately judge how long before the swing timer bar ends to start up my slam. As a result, I often compensate a little and end up starting the slam almost half a second after the swing has landed. This clearly hurts my DPS quite a bit as even with talented slam, I am delaying each white hit by at least 1s. I believe for my level of gear (which although is pretty crap), I should be putting out much more DPS than 600-ish on static fights. Any recommendations would be appreciated |
Or just spec dualweild which doesnt require such a good connection and perfect slam rotation .I even abandoned arms cause with my 250-300ms I wasnt satisfied with my slam rotations.
Any theorycraft done on whether "spiking" your buffs is better to do during execute spam or during normal BT/WW weaving?
Death Wish can obviously be used at least twice, threat permitting, but Recklessness can not.
Also, any point being strict about keeping Battle Shout and Rampage up during Execute? (Shout for rogues seems a given, Rampage seems a bit less vital.)
Death Wish can obviously be used at least twice, threat permitting, but Recklessness can not.
Also, any point being strict about keeping Battle Shout and Rampage up during Execute? (Shout for rogues seems a given, Rampage seems a bit less vital.)
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Originally Posted by Myko
Any theorycraft done on whether "spiking" your buffs is better to do during execute spam or during normal BT/WW weaving?
Death Wish can obviously be used at least twice, threat permitting, but Recklessness can not. |
Pretty much the same is true for all other timers as well.
More AP during execute range will yield in more rage from white attacks, ergo higher executes. If keeping up rampage is worth the GCD would need some more intensive calculations. Since you will do more damage from white attacks as well I would guess keeping rampage up is worth it.
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Originally Posted by Myko
Also, any point being strict about keeping Battle Shout and Rampage up during Execute?
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Recklessness should always be used with death wish and a haste potion. Always.
thundering skyfire or relentless earthstorm?
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Originally Posted by Heaton
thundering skyfire or relentless earthstorm?
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If someone could find that it would be very much appreciated as I'm trying to make the same decision for my T6 helm.
The crit metagem is still the best, even when "nerfed".
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Originally Posted by Muarf
Higher white dmg > mor rage for execute ?
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Kinda depends how long the fight is gonna last in execute range, if for example 1 min, refresh both at 20% then start executing, would not bother with refreshing rampage while executing.
Orc Fury Warrior
Curious as to whether anyone has figured out whether the wicked edge of the plains is better than dragonstrike after the 2.2 patch for orc fury wars? Im currently mainhanding the tier 2 mace, and dont want to waste 5 nethers on dragonstrike if its lower dps than the axe.
Just wondering if anyone's actually done some math to back up the idea that improved slam is useless for dual wield fury. I managed to accidentally hit slam a couple times during our last hydross kill and noticed that my dps did not suffer much if at all. I know that intuitively it's assumed that you'd lose more dps from the lost white hit, however... with dual wield you have a 29% miss rate on white attacks as well as glancing, and rage is rarely if ever a problem for dual wielding. So it would see to me that you would almost gain more from using improved slam, especially considering the amount of AP the average dps warrior runs with in SSC slam crits for ~2-2.5k. Also, resetting a swing timer on weapons with a 1.5-2.5 second speed doesnt seem world-breaking, especially if you have the rage to continue normal dps cycle. Would be nice if someone could do the math to test this out because my brain is currently incapable.
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Originally Posted by skullz
Curious as to whether anyone has figured out whether the wicked edge of the plains is better than dragonstrike after the 2.2 patch for orc fury wars? Im currently mainhanding the tier 2 mace, and dont want to waste 5 nethers on dragonstrike if its lower dps than the axe.
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Originally Posted by Voxx
Just wondering if anyone's actually done some math to back up the idea that improved slam is useless for dual wield fury. I managed to accidentally hit slam a couple times during our last hydross kill and noticed that my dps did not suffer much if at all. I know that intuitively it's assumed that you'd lose more dps from the lost white hit, however... with dual wield you have a 29% miss rate on white attacks as well as glancing, and rage is rarely if ever a problem for dual wielding. So it would see to me that you would almost gain more from using improved slam, especially considering the amount of AP the average dps warrior runs with in SSC slam crits for ~2-2.5k. Also, resetting a swing timer on weapons with a 1.5-2.5 second speed doesnt seem world-breaking, especially if you have the rage to continue normal dps cycle. Would be nice if someone could do the math to test this out because my brain is currently incapable.
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Originally Posted by Voxx
Just wondering if anyone's actually done some math to back up the idea that improved slam is useless for dual wield fury. I managed to accidentally hit slam a couple times during our last hydross kill and noticed that my dps did not suffer much if at all. I know that intuitively it's assumed that you'd lose more dps from the lost white hit, however... with dual wield you have a 29% miss rate on white attacks as well as glancing, and rage is rarely if ever a problem for dual wielding. So it would see to me that you would almost gain more from using improved slam, especially considering the amount of AP the average dps warrior runs with in SSC slam crits for ~2-2.5k. Also, resetting a swing timer on weapons with a 1.5-2.5 second speed doesnt seem world-breaking, especially if you have the rage to continue normal dps cycle. Would be nice if someone could do the math to test this out because my brain is currently incapable.
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Originally Posted by Voxx
Just wondering if anyone's actually done some math to back up the idea that improved slam is useless for dual wield fury. I managed to accidentally hit slam a couple times during our last hydross kill and noticed that my dps did not suffer much if at all. I know that intuitively it's assumed that you'd lose more dps from the lost white hit, however... with dual wield you have a 29% miss rate on white attacks as well as glancing, and rage is rarely if ever a problem for dual wielding. So it would see to me that you would almost gain more from using improved slam, especially considering the amount of AP the average dps warrior runs with in SSC slam crits for ~2-2.5k. Also, resetting a swing timer on weapons with a 1.5-2.5 second speed doesnt seem world-breaking, especially if you have the rage to continue normal dps cycle. Would be nice if someone could do the math to test this out because my brain is currently incapable.
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I also id math on the same setup but with flurry.
I also did some math on the same and using slam and heroic strikes with dualwield (flurried).
It all turned out crap. Sorry
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Originally Posted by dr_AllCOM3
Don't even think about using Slam with DW. Just don't.
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I guess since Slam doesn't proc windfury anymore then it could be considered inferior to heroic strike, however it does generate less threat and I'd still like to see some hard math behind it before I believe that it's completely totally worthless.
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Originally Posted by Voxx
How very productive of you, thanks for your time...
I guess since Slam doesn't proc windfury anymore then it could be considered inferior to heroic strike, however it does generate less threat and I'd still like to see some hard math behind it before I believe that it's completely totally worthless. |
Not the only relevant threads, btu a few places where this has been discussed:
http://elitistjerks.com/f40/t13059-w...heroic_strike/
http://elitistjerks.com/f33/t9272-sl...ps_revolution/
Problems with slam and dual wield:
First of all, 1 handers are fast. At least, fast in comparison to any 2handers that are generally associated with slam builds. It has been shown that 2.5 is the fastest possible weapon that you would want to have an optimal slam rotation, but with flurry and haste items, 1-handers will generally be much faster than this.
Also, what i feel to be the main reason - slam doesn't just reset your main hand swing timer. It resets BOTH your main hand AND your offhand. So really, you're just shooting yourself in the foot if you try to slam while dual wielding. You're much better off just spending the rage on heroic strike.
First of all, 1 handers are fast. At least, fast in comparison to any 2handers that are generally associated with slam builds. It has been shown that 2.5 is the fastest possible weapon that you would want to have an optimal slam rotation, but with flurry and haste items, 1-handers will generally be much faster than this.
Also, what i feel to be the main reason - slam doesn't just reset your main hand swing timer. It resets BOTH your main hand AND your offhand. So really, you're just shooting yourself in the foot if you try to slam while dual wielding. You're much better off just spending the rage on heroic strike.
Say you do 600 dps white damage only. Divide by 1.625. 369 MH dps, 231 OH dps. Say you are using 2.5 speed weapons flurried to 2 seconds. Your average MH hit for 369 dps is 738. OH hit for 231 dps is 462. A good slam lands about .75 seconds after the MH. So, this costs you .75 seconds of MH dps and on an unmatched setup, an average of 1.75 seconds of oh damage (half an offhand swing and .75 seconds). That's a white damage cost of 681. A slam will hit for slightly higher than a MH swing due to less glances, misses, and bigger crits but with no bonus damage. Say it hits for 1000. This slam manuever has netted about 320 damage for pulling off a feat of admirable timing while screwing with your specials timers. Dumping into cleave or HS will have a similar if not greater damage return due to having bonus damage while having less lost dps time. I'm not going to get into it further. I'm sure, in an automated sequence, you might be able to gain a smidge of dps with perfect timing but I have never seen anyone pull it off.
For a human fury warrior that has +5 weapon skill to swords and maces. Which is the better weapon out of dragonstrike and talon of azshara. I have a dst also which stacks with dragonstrike but the nerf to haste has me second guessing. Also talon was slightly buffed in patch 2.2.
What offhand do you use?
I actually use Dragonstrike MH, Talon OH.
I actually use Dragonstrike MH, Talon OH.
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Originally Posted by ckaparos
For a human fury warrior that has +5 weapon skill to swords and maces. Which is the better weapon out of dragonstrike and talon of azshara. I have a dst also which stacks with dragonstrike but the nerf to haste has me second guessing. Also talon was slightly buffed in patch 2.2.
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Latest Version of the sheet.
| For a human fury warrior that has +5 weapon skill to swords and maces. Which is the better weapon out of dragonstrike and talon of azshara. I have a dst also which stacks with dragonstrike but the nerf to haste has me second guessing. Also talon was slightly buffed in patch 2.2. |
Short version: go for both, they're fantastic together and you won't find better until Hyjal/BT, and even then it may only be the Warglaives that top out.
(I use subjective terms because unfortunately I had not started logging our raids at this point. Still, one can tell the difference when going from 4 mobs in a row before bandages while farming to closer to 6 and 7.)
My strategy to dps is to have the rage for BT and WW every time its up while keeping my rage around 25 so that when I switch stances to overpower i dont waste alot of rage. This works fairly well but I think it could be better. Sometimes i can screw up and use a HS when i shouldnt and be lacking rage for a BT but bloodrage helps against that. I also use hamstring when i get over 60 rage because even with HS I cant spend my rage fast enough.
Can any experts comment on that?
Also, In BT I have a lot of gear choices, tier gier for -armor, crafted haste, ect. I already feel like im lacking hit due to some unlucky miss streaks(15%) I was thinking of the haste shoulders, akama gloves, and anything else with gem slots of +hit on them while skipping most tier gier due to lack of hit.
Can any experts comment on that?
Also, In BT I have a lot of gear choices, tier gier for -armor, crafted haste, ect. I already feel like im lacking hit due to some unlucky miss streaks(15%) I was thinking of the haste shoulders, akama gloves, and anything else with gem slots of +hit on them while skipping most tier gier due to lack of hit.
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Originally Posted by Beefyman
My strategy to dps is to have the rage for BT and WW every time its up while keeping my rage around 25 so that when I switch stances to overpower i dont waste alot of rage. This works fairly well but I think it could be better. Sometimes i can screw up and use a HS when i shouldnt and be lacking rage for a BT but bloodrage helps against that. I also use hamstring when i get over 60 rage because even with HS I cant spend my rage fast enough.
Can any experts comment on that? Also, In BT I have a lot of gear choices, tier gier for -armor, crafted haste, ect. I already feel like im lacking hit due to some unlucky miss streaks(15%) I was thinking of the haste shoulders, akama gloves, and anything else with gem slots of +hit on them while skipping most tier gier due to lack of hit. |
Are there any gnomish engineer warriors out there? Any of you test if the Battle Squawk ability from [Gnomish Battle Chicken] still works?
Battle Squawk - Spells - World of Warcraft
Battle Squawk - Spells - World of Warcraft
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Originally Posted by Ren
Are there any gnomish engineer warriors out there? Any of you test if the Battle Squawk ability from [Gnomish Battle Chicken] still works?
Battle Squawk - Spells - World of Warcraft |
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Originally Posted by Kolmar
I've been using Dragonstrike MH, Talon of Azshara OH for a couple of weeks now. I personally love the combination. Previously I had been using a Fool's Bane and Talon, and before that Fool's Bane and Fireguard. Switching to the Talon in the off-hand felt immensely better. Trading out Fool's Bane for Drakefist Hammer/Dragonmaw also felt like a large boost. My rage generation smoothed out considerably between those upgrades as well, allowing for a good deal more Heroic Strikes (I'll give good old Cleave another shot next week, when I can compare it to the prior performance. I do know I love it when targetting a Spitfire Totem, or when the adds on Solarian first pop.)
Short version: go for both, they're fantastic together and you won't find better until Hyjal/BT, and even then it may only be the Warglaives that top out. (I use subjective terms because unfortunately I had not started logging our raids at this point. Still, one can tell the difference when going from 4 mobs in a row before bandages while farming to closer to 6 and 7.) |
Hi currently im using the dragonstrike mh and s2 oh sword I have tried the talon in my oh but i found dps to be on par with the 1.5speed oh swords in the long run. And the only thing i dont like about talon in oh is on short dps fights like trash clears if you have a bad run on flurry your dps at 2.7 speed is quite slow.
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Originally Posted by ckaparos
on short dps fights like trash clears if you have a bad run on flurry your dps at 2.7 speed is quite slow.
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Originally Posted by Kolmar
Honestly that's kind of a non-issue to me. It's pretty damn common to get at least one crit on your opening pair of swings, and then the rage flow is high enough to keep things going. Plus I'm currently still using an Abacus in my 2nd trinket (DST in primary), and it's reasonable to open a fight with.
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Originally Posted by Rhaeti
I was toying around with it during AV weekend and it does still work. It would proc once out of about every three uses. The long CD and AE damage in raids makes it difficult to be an effective DPS boost though.
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I think the proc occurs independently of whether the chicken is actually hitting its' target, too, but it's been a long time
| Not a lot is finalized right now, but we are currently planning to make Improved Berserker Stance provide threat reduction by 2/4/6/8/10% while in Berserker Stance. |
WoW Forums -> 2.3 - Can we have some Fury <3?
That right there is pure sex...
probably one of the best changes for dps warriors ever.
probably one of the best changes for dps warriors ever.
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Originally Posted by Muarf
Higher white dmg > mor rage for execute ?
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Kinda depends how long the fight is gonna last in execute range, if for example 1 min, refresh both at 20% then start executing, would not bother with refreshing rampage while executing.
Orc Fury Warrior
Curious as to whether anyone has figured out whether the wicked edge of the plains is better than dragonstrike after the 2.2 patch for orc fury wars? Im currently mainhanding the tier 2 mace, and dont want to waste 5 nethers on dragonstrike if its lower dps than the axe.
Just wondering if anyone's actually done some math to back up the idea that improved slam is useless for dual wield fury. I managed to accidentally hit slam a couple times during our last hydross kill and noticed that my dps did not suffer much if at all. I know that intuitively it's assumed that you'd lose more dps from the lost white hit, however... with dual wield you have a 29% miss rate on white attacks as well as glancing, and rage is rarely if ever a problem for dual wielding. So it would see to me that you would almost gain more from using improved slam, especially considering the amount of AP the average dps warrior runs with in SSC slam crits for ~2-2.5k. Also, resetting a swing timer on weapons with a 1.5-2.5 second speed doesnt seem world-breaking, especially if you have the rage to continue normal dps cycle. Would be nice if someone could do the math to test this out because my brain is currently incapable.
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Originally Posted by skullz
Curious as to whether anyone has figured out whether the wicked edge of the plains is better than dragonstrike after the 2.2 patch for orc fury wars? Im currently mainhanding the tier 2 mace, and dont want to waste 5 nethers on dragonstrike if its lower dps than the axe.
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Originally Posted by Voxx
Just wondering if anyone's actually done some math to back up the idea that improved slam is useless for dual wield fury. I managed to accidentally hit slam a couple times during our last hydross kill and noticed that my dps did not suffer much if at all. I know that intuitively it's assumed that you'd lose more dps from the lost white hit, however... with dual wield you have a 29% miss rate on white attacks as well as glancing, and rage is rarely if ever a problem for dual wielding. So it would see to me that you would almost gain more from using improved slam, especially considering the amount of AP the average dps warrior runs with in SSC slam crits for ~2-2.5k. Also, resetting a swing timer on weapons with a 1.5-2.5 second speed doesnt seem world-breaking, especially if you have the rage to continue normal dps cycle. Would be nice if someone could do the math to test this out because my brain is currently incapable.
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Originally Posted by Voxx
Just wondering if anyone's actually done some math to back up the idea that improved slam is useless for dual wield fury. I managed to accidentally hit slam a couple times during our last hydross kill and noticed that my dps did not suffer much if at all. I know that intuitively it's assumed that you'd lose more dps from the lost white hit, however... with dual wield you have a 29% miss rate on white attacks as well as glancing, and rage is rarely if ever a problem for dual wielding. So it would see to me that you would almost gain more from using improved slam, especially considering the amount of AP the average dps warrior runs with in SSC slam crits for ~2-2.5k. Also, resetting a swing timer on weapons with a 1.5-2.5 second speed doesnt seem world-breaking, especially if you have the rage to continue normal dps cycle. Would be nice if someone could do the math to test this out because my brain is currently incapable.
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Originally Posted by Voxx
Just wondering if anyone's actually done some math to back up the idea that improved slam is useless for dual wield fury. I managed to accidentally hit slam a couple times during our last hydross kill and noticed that my dps did not suffer much if at all. I know that intuitively it's assumed that you'd lose more dps from the lost white hit, however... with dual wield you have a 29% miss rate on white attacks as well as glancing, and rage is rarely if ever a problem for dual wielding. So it would see to me that you would almost gain more from using improved slam, especially considering the amount of AP the average dps warrior runs with in SSC slam crits for ~2-2.5k. Also, resetting a swing timer on weapons with a 1.5-2.5 second speed doesnt seem world-breaking, especially if you have the rage to continue normal dps cycle. Would be nice if someone could do the math to test this out because my brain is currently incapable.
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I also id math on the same setup but with flurry.
I also did some math on the same and using slam and heroic strikes with dualwield (flurried).
It all turned out crap. Sorry
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Originally Posted by dr_AllCOM3
Don't even think about using Slam with DW. Just don't.
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I guess since Slam doesn't proc windfury anymore then it could be considered inferior to heroic strike, however it does generate less threat and I'd still like to see some hard math behind it before I believe that it's completely totally worthless.
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Originally Posted by Voxx
How very productive of you, thanks for your time...
I guess since Slam doesn't proc windfury anymore then it could be considered inferior to heroic strike, however it does generate less threat and I'd still like to see some hard math behind it before I believe that it's completely totally worthless. |
Not the only relevant threads, btu a few places where this has been discussed:
http://elitistjerks.com/f40/t13059-w...heroic_strike/
http://elitistjerks.com/f33/t9272-sl...ps_revolution/
Problems with slam and dual wield:
First of all, 1 handers are fast. At least, fast in comparison to any 2handers that are generally associated with slam builds. It has been shown that 2.5 is the fastest possible weapon that you would want to have an optimal slam rotation, but with flurry and haste items, 1-handers will generally be much faster than this.
Also, what i feel to be the main reason - slam doesn't just reset your main hand swing timer. It resets BOTH your main hand AND your offhand. So really, you're just shooting yourself in the foot if you try to slam while dual wielding. You're much better off just spending the rage on heroic strike.
First of all, 1 handers are fast. At least, fast in comparison to any 2handers that are generally associated with slam builds. It has been shown that 2.5 is the fastest possible weapon that you would want to have an optimal slam rotation, but with flurry and haste items, 1-handers will generally be much faster than this.
Also, what i feel to be the main reason - slam doesn't just reset your main hand swing timer. It resets BOTH your main hand AND your offhand. So really, you're just shooting yourself in the foot if you try to slam while dual wielding. You're much better off just spending the rage on heroic strike.
Say you do 600 dps white damage only. Divide by 1.625. 369 MH dps, 231 OH dps. Say you are using 2.5 speed weapons flurried to 2 seconds. Your average MH hit for 369 dps is 738. OH hit for 231 dps is 462. A good slam lands about .75 seconds after the MH. So, this costs you .75 seconds of MH dps and on an unmatched setup, an average of 1.75 seconds of oh damage (half an offhand swing and .75 seconds). That's a white damage cost of 681. A slam will hit for slightly higher than a MH swing due to less glances, misses, and bigger crits but with no bonus damage. Say it hits for 1000. This slam manuever has netted about 320 damage for pulling off a feat of admirable timing while screwing with your specials timers. Dumping into cleave or HS will have a similar if not greater damage return due to having bonus damage while having less lost dps time. I'm not going to get into it further. I'm sure, in an automated sequence, you might be able to gain a smidge of dps with perfect timing but I have never seen anyone pull it off.
For a human fury warrior that has +5 weapon skill to swords and maces. Which is the better weapon out of dragonstrike and talon of azshara. I have a dst also which stacks with dragonstrike but the nerf to haste has me second guessing. Also talon was slightly buffed in patch 2.2.
What offhand do you use?
I actually use Dragonstrike MH, Talon OH.
I actually use Dragonstrike MH, Talon OH.
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Originally Posted by ckaparos
For a human fury warrior that has +5 weapon skill to swords and maces. Which is the better weapon out of dragonstrike and talon of azshara. I have a dst also which stacks with dragonstrike but the nerf to haste has me second guessing. Also talon was slightly buffed in patch 2.2.
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Latest Version of the sheet.
| For a human fury warrior that has +5 weapon skill to swords and maces. Which is the better weapon out of dragonstrike and talon of azshara. I have a dst also which stacks with dragonstrike but the nerf to haste has me second guessing. Also talon was slightly buffed in patch 2.2. |
Short version: go for both, they're fantastic together and you won't find better until Hyjal/BT, and even then it may only be the Warglaives that top out.
(I use subjective terms because unfortunately I had not started logging our raids at this point. Still, one can tell the difference when going from 4 mobs in a row before bandages while farming to closer to 6 and 7.)
My strategy to dps is to have the rage for BT and WW every time its up while keeping my rage around 25 so that when I switch stances to overpower i dont waste alot of rage. This works fairly well but I think it could be better. Sometimes i can screw up and use a HS when i shouldnt and be lacking rage for a BT but bloodrage helps against that. I also use hamstring when i get over 60 rage because even with HS I cant spend my rage fast enough.
Can any experts comment on that?
Also, In BT I have a lot of gear choices, tier gier for -armor, crafted haste, ect. I already feel like im lacking hit due to some unlucky miss streaks(15%) I was thinking of the haste shoulders, akama gloves, and anything else with gem slots of +hit on them while skipping most tier gier due to lack of hit.
Can any experts comment on that?
Also, In BT I have a lot of gear choices, tier gier for -armor, crafted haste, ect. I already feel like im lacking hit due to some unlucky miss streaks(15%) I was thinking of the haste shoulders, akama gloves, and anything else with gem slots of +hit on them while skipping most tier gier due to lack of hit.
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Originally Posted by Beefyman
My strategy to dps is to have the rage for BT and WW every time its up while keeping my rage around 25 so that when I switch stances to overpower i dont waste alot of rage. This works fairly well but I think it could be better. Sometimes i can screw up and use a HS when i shouldnt and be lacking rage for a BT but bloodrage helps against that. I also use hamstring when i get over 60 rage because even with HS I cant spend my rage fast enough.
Can any experts comment on that? Also, In BT I have a lot of gear choices, tier gier for -armor, crafted haste, ect. I already feel like im lacking hit due to some unlucky miss streaks(15%) I was thinking of the haste shoulders, akama gloves, and anything else with gem slots of +hit on them while skipping most tier gier due to lack of hit. |
Are there any gnomish engineer warriors out there? Any of you test if the Battle Squawk ability from [Gnomish Battle Chicken] still works?
Battle Squawk - Spells - World of Warcraft
Battle Squawk - Spells - World of Warcraft
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Originally Posted by Ren
Are there any gnomish engineer warriors out there? Any of you test if the Battle Squawk ability from [Gnomish Battle Chicken] still works?
Battle Squawk - Spells - World of Warcraft |
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Originally Posted by Kolmar
I've been using Dragonstrike MH, Talon of Azshara OH for a couple of weeks now. I personally love the combination. Previously I had been using a Fool's Bane and Talon, and before that Fool's Bane and Fireguard. Switching to the Talon in the off-hand felt immensely better. Trading out Fool's Bane for Drakefist Hammer/Dragonmaw also felt like a large boost. My rage generation smoothed out considerably between those upgrades as well, allowing for a good deal more Heroic Strikes (I'll give good old Cleave another shot next week, when I can compare it to the prior performance. I do know I love it when targetting a Spitfire Totem, or when the adds on Solarian first pop.)
Short version: go for both, they're fantastic together and you won't find better until Hyjal/BT, and even then it may only be the Warglaives that top out. (I use subjective terms because unfortunately I had not started logging our raids at this point. Still, one can tell the difference when going from 4 mobs in a row before bandages while farming to closer to 6 and 7.) |
Hi currently im using the dragonstrike mh and s2 oh sword I have tried the talon in my oh but i found dps to be on par with the 1.5speed oh swords in the long run. And the only thing i dont like about talon in oh is on short dps fights like trash clears if you have a bad run on flurry your dps at 2.7 speed is quite slow.
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Originally Posted by ckaparos
on short dps fights like trash clears if you have a bad run on flurry your dps at 2.7 speed is quite slow.
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Originally Posted by Kolmar
Honestly that's kind of a non-issue to me. It's pretty damn common to get at least one crit on your opening pair of swings, and then the rage flow is high enough to keep things going. Plus I'm currently still using an Abacus in my 2nd trinket (DST in primary), and it's reasonable to open a fight with.
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Originally Posted by Rhaeti
I was toying around with it during AV weekend and it does still work. It would proc once out of about every three uses. The long CD and AE damage in raids makes it difficult to be an effective DPS boost though.
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I think the proc occurs independently of whether the chicken is actually hitting its' target, too, but it's been a long time
| Not a lot is finalized right now, but we are currently planning to make Improved Berserker Stance provide threat reduction by 2/4/6/8/10% while in Berserker Stance. |
WoW Forums -> 2.3 - Can we have some Fury <3?
That right there is pure sex...
probably one of the best changes for dps warriors ever.
probably one of the best changes for dps warriors ever.
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Originally Posted by Crel
Big time reader, first time poster but thought I'd share this for those of you who might have missed it, follow the link to see with your own eyes before they fill with tears of joy.
WoW Forums -> 2.3 - Can we have some Fury <3? |
Dare to dream.
This would be wonderful- a static ability that counters some of the aggro generating rage dumps we use. Something along the lines of vanish- an aggro reduction on cool down- would more than likely prove overpowered for the class. A static change would fit well.
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Originally Posted by Crel
Big time reader, first time poster but thought I'd share this for those of you who might have missed it, follow the link to see with your own eyes before they fill with tears of joy.
WoW Forums -> 2.3 - Can we have some Fury <3? |
Now if only they'd move BF to the fury tree so I wouldn't feel so damn guilty about dreaming of going fury again, sigh.
I'm still holding out for Blood Frenzy though. It adds so much raid utility. =/
Blood Frenzy in Fury would be a huge addition to Fury utility. Perhaps they could swap it for improved intercept (not at their current tiers though). The upcoming change to threat reduction shows they are listening to the community so perhaps they will give the blood frenazy suggestion some serious thought.
Maybe I'm being a pessimist but the wording has me wondering now, is Imp Zerker Stance being changed from 10% AP to -10% threat, or do we get both?
both.
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Originally Posted by Emeraude
Maybe I'm being a pessimist but the wording has me wondering now, is Imp Zerker Stance being changed from 10% AP to -10% threat, or do we get both?
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Being stucked with 3 rogues and 1 resto shaman.... I cant see big problems even at teron gorefiend.My best effort there was 1427 dps and still i had space for more.
hi guys
On our last BT clear i tried out 33/28 Swordspec-MS-DW-Bloodfrenzy-Deathwish-etc.
i actually made some good dps compared to what i thought i would do. its not as heavy as 17/44, but i think, without making any calculations, that the boost bloodfrenzy gives is making up for it.
anyone have some input to this? or have tried same or similar specs?
On our last BT clear i tried out 33/28 Swordspec-MS-DW-Bloodfrenzy-Deathwish-etc.
i actually made some good dps compared to what i thought i would do. its not as heavy as 17/44, but i think, without making any calculations, that the boost bloodfrenzy gives is making up for it.
anyone have some input to this? or have tried same or similar specs?
I don't think the 5% from sword/axe spec makes up for the AP lost to imp zerk stance and rampage. Not to mention BT will hit harder than 1h MS. You could always plug your stats into the dps warrior spreadsheet to see the difference.
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Originally Posted by Korlong
I'm still holding out for Blood Frenzy though. It adds so much raid utility. =/
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im thinking that the 4% raid physical dps from bloodfrenzy makes up for it. and yeah i loose alot of ap, plus my MS dont hit hard at all, but on encounters like Illidari council ms is nice. all in all i made more dps than i thought and its still fun compared to slam, which imo is boring.
for me it's kinda fun to try out new specs instead of the good old ones, and i got the 2 swords and gave it a go.
for me it's kinda fun to try out new specs instead of the good old ones, and i got the 2 swords and gave it a go.
They really ought to swap Blood Frenzy and Improved Intercept...or swap it with Enrage, unlinked from Flurry.
I downloaded the Warrior DPS Spreadsheet to compare -armour and post-2.2 haste with strength, mainly because I'm currently prot doing Hyjal and some BT - this gear starts to drop and with being able to spec fury for certain encounters (no need for more than 1 tank) I'm taking the whole fury thing more serious.
Now first of all, why does it say 0,00 at 10 hit rating?
Also, the note at this said "don't take this too serious". I have some question concerning how not serious I should take this and if I really shouldn't take it serious at all, are there any concrete numbers?
Especially concerning str vs. haste and str vs. -armour.
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10 Str - 10 Agi - 10 AP - 10 Crit 1,00 ---- 0,84 ---- 0,45 --- 1,14 10 Hit - 10 Haste - 10 -armour 0,00 ---- 1,42 ------- 0,18 |
Also, the note at this said "don't take this too serious". I have some question concerning how not serious I should take this and if I really shouldn't take it serious at all, are there any concrete numbers?
Especially concerning str vs. haste and str vs. -armour.
The stat weights are relative to the gear currently selected in the spreadsheet. Hit is reporting 0.00 because the default weapon equipped is a twohander and the gear provides 9%+ hit.
You should probably start with inputting your own gear, two onehanders and go from there.
You should probably start with inputting your own gear, two onehanders and go from there.
I'm also slightly worried about the wording but I'd like to think that Blizzard wouldn't make that kind of move especially when you look at the other talent changes coming with 2.3, so I'm positive that the threat reduction will be in addition to.
Unfortunately cry as we might I doubt they'd move BF over to fury, it would remove all viability for arms in a pve role and Blizz keeps going on about how they want each talent tree to have viability. That being said this change certainly gives fury a big boost over arms who even after the WF change was still keeping pace in many cases. I'm curious to see if they add anything to boost arms dps or if this threat change will usher in the end of arms in pve.
Unfortunately cry as we might I doubt they'd move BF over to fury, it would remove all viability for arms in a pve role and Blizz keeps going on about how they want each talent tree to have viability. That being said this change certainly gives fury a big boost over arms who even after the WF change was still keeping pace in many cases. I'm curious to see if they add anything to boost arms dps or if this threat change will usher in the end of arms in pve.
Question: are there any numbers on how effectiv "unbridled wrath" is? It used to be 40% per swing, but right now I'm questioning its effectiveness. Since for raid purposes I have skilled 5/5 demoralizing shout, it seems those points could be spent more effectively in other areas.
I am, however, ragestarved some of the time.
I am, however, ragestarved some of the time.
Edited onPatch 2.2.2
I think UBW was changed to be made better with slower weapons?
Last edited by Eledorian : 10/07/07 at 7:41 AM.
I havent been able to find anyone that has tested it exactly, but UW seems to have been changed to a PPM rather than a % so that weapon speed wouldnt be a factor. I doubt that there is much difference between them with average speed weapons.
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Originally Posted by Bronwyn
Question: are there any numbers on how effectiv "unbridled wrath" is? It used to be 40% per swing, but right now I'm questioning its effectiveness. Since for raid purposes I have skilled 5/5 demoralizing shout, it seems those points could be spent more effectively in other areas.
I am, however, ragestarved some of the time. |
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Originally Posted by Bronwyn
Question: are there any numbers on how effectiv "unbridled wrath" is? It used to be 40% per swing, but right now I'm questioning its effectiveness. Since for raid purposes I have skilled 5/5 demoralizing shout, it seems those points could be spent more effectively in other areas.
I am, however, ragestarved some of the time. |
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Originally Posted by Darkrenown
Unless you use CoR a lot, why not go 2/5 demo and 3/5 wrath?
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Right now, I have chosen 3/5 demo, 5/5 UW and 0/2 imp. execute (that's where my spare points come from). I will of course, respec once I get the T6 execute bonus.
Hi, what do you think about Prot warriors in DPS stuff spamming Devastate + Heroic Strike ? They're doing quite good damages if their gear is updated with raid items. Some people raiding BT are saying (on the french WoW boards, sorry I won't translate the whole thread) that Fury warriors aren't worth a place in raid as they're doing less damages than rogues and prot warriors dps'ing allmost the same as furies (a difference of 100dps, or less, they said). To them, bringing an additional tank with DPS gear is better than having a fury.
As I don't raid in BT/Hyjal, I have no clue about the situation there but in SSC/TK I do really more damages than a Prot warrior in DPS stuff (even Grull or VR fights when we have more than 2 tanks, these fights giving a lot or rage, allowing spamming specials). What do you think about it ?
As I don't raid in BT/Hyjal, I have no clue about the situation there but in SSC/TK I do really more damages than a Prot warrior in DPS stuff (even Grull or VR fights when we have more than 2 tanks, these fights giving a lot or rage, allowing spamming specials). What do you think about it ?
With the right gear and group a protection spec'ed warrior in fury gear is quite capable of 1000+ dps.
I've not had much chance to try it out and never tried it with a enhancement shaman but i did put out 800dps on kaz'rogal a month or so back while getting stunned to death and having my strength reduced by 75%.
It is however very high threat dps.
I've not had much chance to try it out and never tried it with a enhancement shaman but i did put out 800dps on kaz'rogal a month or so back while getting stunned to death and having my strength reduced by 75%.
It is however very high threat dps.
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Originally Posted by Crel
Big time reader, first time poster but thought I'd share this for those of you who might have missed it, follow the link to see with your own eyes before they fill with tears of joy.
WoW Forums -> 2.3 - Can we have some Fury <3? |
Dare to dream.
This would be wonderful- a static ability that counters some of the aggro generating rage dumps we use. Something along the lines of vanish- an aggro reduction on cool down- would more than likely prove overpowered for the class. A static change would fit well.
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Originally Posted by Crel
Big time reader, first time poster but thought I'd share this for those of you who might have missed it, follow the link to see with your own eyes before they fill with tears of joy.
WoW Forums -> 2.3 - Can we have some Fury <3? |
Now if only they'd move BF to the fury tree so I wouldn't feel so damn guilty about dreaming of going fury again, sigh.
I'm still holding out for Blood Frenzy though. It adds so much raid utility. =/
Blood Frenzy in Fury would be a huge addition to Fury utility. Perhaps they could swap it for improved intercept (not at their current tiers though). The upcoming change to threat reduction shows they are listening to the community so perhaps they will give the blood frenazy suggestion some serious thought.
Maybe I'm being a pessimist but the wording has me wondering now, is Imp Zerker Stance being changed from 10% AP to -10% threat, or do we get both?
both.
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Originally Posted by Emeraude
Maybe I'm being a pessimist but the wording has me wondering now, is Imp Zerker Stance being changed from 10% AP to -10% threat, or do we get both?
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Being stucked with 3 rogues and 1 resto shaman.... I cant see big problems even at teron gorefiend.My best effort there was 1427 dps and still i had space for more.
hi guys
On our last BT clear i tried out 33/28 Swordspec-MS-DW-Bloodfrenzy-Deathwish-etc.
i actually made some good dps compared to what i thought i would do. its not as heavy as 17/44, but i think, without making any calculations, that the boost bloodfrenzy gives is making up for it.
anyone have some input to this? or have tried same or similar specs?
On our last BT clear i tried out 33/28 Swordspec-MS-DW-Bloodfrenzy-Deathwish-etc.
i actually made some good dps compared to what i thought i would do. its not as heavy as 17/44, but i think, without making any calculations, that the boost bloodfrenzy gives is making up for it.
anyone have some input to this? or have tried same or similar specs?
I don't think the 5% from sword/axe spec makes up for the AP lost to imp zerk stance and rampage. Not to mention BT will hit harder than 1h MS. You could always plug your stats into the dps warrior spreadsheet to see the difference.
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Originally Posted by Korlong
I'm still holding out for Blood Frenzy though. It adds so much raid utility. =/
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im thinking that the 4% raid physical dps from bloodfrenzy makes up for it. and yeah i loose alot of ap, plus my MS dont hit hard at all, but on encounters like Illidari council ms is nice. all in all i made more dps than i thought and its still fun compared to slam, which imo is boring.
for me it's kinda fun to try out new specs instead of the good old ones, and i got the 2 swords and gave it a go.
for me it's kinda fun to try out new specs instead of the good old ones, and i got the 2 swords and gave it a go.
They really ought to swap Blood Frenzy and Improved Intercept...or swap it with Enrage, unlinked from Flurry.
I downloaded the Warrior DPS Spreadsheet to compare -armour and post-2.2 haste with strength, mainly because I'm currently prot doing Hyjal and some BT - this gear starts to drop and with being able to spec fury for certain encounters (no need for more than 1 tank) I'm taking the whole fury thing more serious.
Now first of all, why does it say 0,00 at 10 hit rating?
Also, the note at this said "don't take this too serious". I have some question concerning how not serious I should take this and if I really shouldn't take it serious at all, are there any concrete numbers?
Especially concerning str vs. haste and str vs. -armour.
|
10 Str - 10 Agi - 10 AP - 10 Crit 1,00 ---- 0,84 ---- 0,45 --- 1,14 10 Hit - 10 Haste - 10 -armour 0,00 ---- 1,42 ------- 0,18 |
Also, the note at this said "don't take this too serious". I have some question concerning how not serious I should take this and if I really shouldn't take it serious at all, are there any concrete numbers?
Especially concerning str vs. haste and str vs. -armour.
The stat weights are relative to the gear currently selected in the spreadsheet. Hit is reporting 0.00 because the default weapon equipped is a twohander and the gear provides 9%+ hit.
You should probably start with inputting your own gear, two onehanders and go from there.
You should probably start with inputting your own gear, two onehanders and go from there.
I'm also slightly worried about the wording but I'd like to think that Blizzard wouldn't make that kind of move especially when you look at the other talent changes coming with 2.3, so I'm positive that the threat reduction will be in addition to.
Unfortunately cry as we might I doubt they'd move BF over to fury, it would remove all viability for arms in a pve role and Blizz keeps going on about how they want each talent tree to have viability. That being said this change certainly gives fury a big boost over arms who even after the WF change was still keeping pace in many cases. I'm curious to see if they add anything to boost arms dps or if this threat change will usher in the end of arms in pve.
Unfortunately cry as we might I doubt they'd move BF over to fury, it would remove all viability for arms in a pve role and Blizz keeps going on about how they want each talent tree to have viability. That being said this change certainly gives fury a big boost over arms who even after the WF change was still keeping pace in many cases. I'm curious to see if they add anything to boost arms dps or if this threat change will usher in the end of arms in pve.
Question: are there any numbers on how effectiv "unbridled wrath" is? It used to be 40% per swing, but right now I'm questioning its effectiveness. Since for raid purposes I have skilled 5/5 demoralizing shout, it seems those points could be spent more effectively in other areas.
I am, however, ragestarved some of the time.
I am, however, ragestarved some of the time.
Edited onPatch 2.2.2
I think UBW was changed to be made better with slower weapons?
Last edited by Eledorian : 10/07/07 at 7:41 AM.
I havent been able to find anyone that has tested it exactly, but UW seems to have been changed to a PPM rather than a % so that weapon speed wouldnt be a factor. I doubt that there is much difference between them with average speed weapons.
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Originally Posted by Bronwyn
Question: are there any numbers on how effectiv "unbridled wrath" is? It used to be 40% per swing, but right now I'm questioning its effectiveness. Since for raid purposes I have skilled 5/5 demoralizing shout, it seems those points could be spent more effectively in other areas.
I am, however, ragestarved some of the time. |
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Originally Posted by Bronwyn
Question: are there any numbers on how effectiv "unbridled wrath" is? It used to be 40% per swing, but right now I'm questioning its effectiveness. Since for raid purposes I have skilled 5/5 demoralizing shout, it seems those points could be spent more effectively in other areas.
I am, however, ragestarved some of the time. |
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Originally Posted by Darkrenown
Unless you use CoR a lot, why not go 2/5 demo and 3/5 wrath?
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Right now, I have chosen 3/5 demo, 5/5 UW and 0/2 imp. execute (that's where my spare points come from). I will of course, respec once I get the T6 execute bonus.
Hi, what do you think about Prot warriors in DPS stuff spamming Devastate + Heroic Strike ? They're doing quite good damages if their gear is updated with raid items. Some people raiding BT are saying (on the french WoW boards, sorry I won't translate the whole thread) that Fury warriors aren't worth a place in raid as they're doing less damages than rogues and prot warriors dps'ing allmost the same as furies (a difference of 100dps, or less, they said). To them, bringing an additional tank with DPS gear is better than having a fury.
As I don't raid in BT/Hyjal, I have no clue about the situation there but in SSC/TK I do really more damages than a Prot warrior in DPS stuff (even Grull or VR fights when we have more than 2 tanks, these fights giving a lot or rage, allowing spamming specials). What do you think about it ?
As I don't raid in BT/Hyjal, I have no clue about the situation there but in SSC/TK I do really more damages than a Prot warrior in DPS stuff (even Grull or VR fights when we have more than 2 tanks, these fights giving a lot or rage, allowing spamming specials). What do you think about it ?
With the right gear and group a protection spec'ed warrior in fury gear is quite capable of 1000+ dps.
I've not had much chance to try it out and never tried it with a enhancement shaman but i did put out 800dps on kaz'rogal a month or so back while getting stunned to death and having my strength reduced by 75%.
It is however very high threat dps.
I've not had much chance to try it out and never tried it with a enhancement shaman but i did put out 800dps on kaz'rogal a month or so back while getting stunned to death and having my strength reduced by 75%.
It is however very high threat dps.
First of all, you actually have the plate DPS items dropping... wich none other then a plate class can use. So gearing is rather easy.
Second, we do bring AP shout. If there is a melee group it adds a nice 400 something AP ( I use my solarian sapphire and it adds around 500 AP or so)
Third, on any "aoe" or "add" fight i pump out quite nice DPS i place higher then some locks in certain fights.
Judging by spreadsheets my DPS will up quite a bit too when i start racking up the items from hyjal / BT
And there is nothing saying i cant offtank with fury
Second, we do bring AP shout. If there is a melee group it adds a nice 400 something AP ( I use my solarian sapphire and it adds around 500 AP or so)
Third, on any "aoe" or "add" fight i pump out quite nice DPS i place higher then some locks in certain fights.
Judging by spreadsheets my DPS will up quite a bit too when i start racking up the items from hyjal / BT
And there is nothing saying i cant offtank with fury
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Originally Posted by Bronwyn
We always use CoR if the Boss isn't prone to being very bursty (e.g. Morogrim, Azgalor). And 5/5 demo is better than 2/5 demo, for one.
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Hmmm. I've DPSed as prot and it's not all that. I'd DW and spam WW/DevaxX. I kept up rage fairly well, but was gimped on AP and scaled poorly. At ~800 DPS, I was much higher in aggro than I would want to be. I guess the question becomes, does a fury warrior OT better than a Prot warrior DPSes. We just downed KT last night and got into Hijal, so I can't say too much about that, but I was tanking that trash in DPS gear with a shield on. In tank gear, my survivability is fine. You can just out gear that. My TPS is not very high in tank gear, but if I'm second kill or later in a pack, that's fine. In DPS gear, I can crank my TPS up to about 1200-1400 albeit with much less mitigation and hp. Then, if I break combat and switch gear, I can turn around and do 1200 DPS without too much effort. I think it comes down to it's better to bring good warriors than bad warriors.
I just got the [Rod of the Sun King]. I'm not super excited about it as I don't value the proc much at all, but the 2.7 speed, one hand, 100 dps aspect of it makes it very useful. The fact that it looks like a caster weapon is a little annoying. It makes my character look left handed (Talon of Azshara moving to the OH). It matches my weapon speeds at 2.7 so I'll see if I like that over the more even rage generation. My hit rating is a little low (175 ish) so I think my rage generation will be a little spiky. I do like me some big numbers though.
I just got the [Rod of the Sun King]. I'm not super excited about it as I don't value the proc much at all, but the 2.7 speed, one hand, 100 dps aspect of it makes it very useful. The fact that it looks like a caster weapon is a little annoying. It makes my character look left handed (Talon of Azshara moving to the OH). It matches my weapon speeds at 2.7 so I'll see if I like that over the more even rage generation. My hit rating is a little low (175 ish) so I think my rage generation will be a little spiky. I do like me some big numbers though.
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Originally Posted by Grymm
Hmmm. I've DPSed as prot and it's not all that. I'd DW and spam WW/DevaxX. I kept up rage fairly well, but was gimped on AP and scaled poorly. At ~800 DPS, I was much higher in aggro than I would want to be. I guess the question becomes, does a fury warrior OT better than a Prot warrior DPSes. We just downed KT last night and got into Hijal, so I can't say too much about that, but I was tanking that trash in DPS gear with a shield on. In tank gear, my survivability is fine. You can just out gear that. My TPS is not very high in tank gear, but if I'm second kill or later in a pack, that's fine. In DPS gear, I can crank my TPS up to about 1200-1400 albeit with much less mitigation and hp. Then, if I break combat and switch gear, I can turn around and do 1200 DPS without too much effort. I think it comes down to it's better to bring good warriors than bad warriors.
I just got the [Rod of the Sun King]. I'm not super excited about it as I don't value the proc much at all, but the 2.7 speed, one hand, 100 dps aspect of it makes it very useful. The fact that it looks like a caster weapon is a little annoying. It makes my character look left handed (Talon of Azshara moving to the OH). It matches my weapon speeds at 2.7 so I'll see if I like that over the more even rage generation. My hit rating is a little low (175 ish) so I think my rage generation will be a little spiky. I do like me some big numbers though. |
All I have to say is, the changes to improved berserker stance are a godsend. Threat is still very much an issue for many of the T6 encounters, but I am very surprised that they would give fury a threat reducer. I can only hope this doesn't effect our class in a negative way in future expansions, giving us a scaling -aggro talent, when we improve so much with gear.
Heard from a few sources straight AP stacking for DW 17-44-0 warriors outscales any haste rating you can currently muster as equippable gear.
Any info behind this argument?
Any info behind this argument?
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Originally Posted by Quixotic
All I have to say is, the changes to improved berserker stance are a godsend. Threat is still very much an issue for many of the T6 encounters, but I am very surprised that they would give fury a threat reducer. I can only hope this doesn't effect our class in a negative way in future expansions, giving us a scaling -aggro talent, when we improve so much with gear.
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The problem with Haste is that it's only really slithly better than hit rating for warriors. They convert at roughly the same rate: 15.8ish rating per point. In a time period that would net 100 white swings, 1% haste equates to 1 more swing and 1% hit equates to 1 more hit. This is assuming you are above the yellow miss cap but below the total hit cap. The benefit of haste then is that you get, on average, more than 1 weapon damage per weapon swing. With glancing/crits weighted, I get about 1.11 weapon damage per swing. So, 10 haste is worth about 11 hit rating. One for one, I'd generally rather have ap/crit as they will enhance my yellow damage as well. Haste was much more valuable prenerf when a % was cheaper to achieve.
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Originally Posted by Grymm
The problem with Haste is that it's only really slithly better than hit rating for warriors. They convert at roughly the same rate: 15.8ish rating per point. In a time period that would net 100 white swings, 1% haste equates to 1 more swing and 1% hit equates to 1 more hit. This is assuming you are above the yellow miss cap but below the total hit cap. The benefit of haste then is that you get, on average, more than 1 weapon damage per weapon swing. With glancing/crits weighted, I get about 1.11 weapon damage per swing. So, 10 haste is worth about 11 hit rating. One for one, I'd generally rather have ap/crit as they will enhance my yellow damage as well. Haste was much more valuable prenerf when a % was cheaper to achieve.
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Still, by definition, when you nerf one of the scaling stats, it will make sense to stack the ones that don't scale (AP/STR) to a greater degree.
This is because it will take a higher static AP to get the same per rating benefit out of post nerf haste.
The -10% threat is in addition to the already existing +10% AP if anyone was still worried
WoW-Europe.com Forums -> Wooot! Blizzard listened to the community ZOM
WoW-Europe.com Forums -> Wooot! Blizzard listened to the community ZOM
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Originally Posted by Paa
With the right gear and group a protection spec'ed warrior in fury gear is quite capable of 1000+ dps.
I've not had much chance to try it out and never tried it with a enhancement shaman but i did put out 800dps on kaz'rogal a month or so back while getting stunned to death and having my strength reduced by 75%. It is however very high threat dps. |
Link for those curious: Natural - WWS
Protection DPS is certainly possible, albeit high threat as others have mentioned. With the proper gear you can skip a talent respec once and awhile on farm encounters.
Meh, short fights like that can be misleading. You probably did 35k+ damage of that during reckless and that's without stacking it with bloodlust. Curiously, it looks like you went and respecced immediately after Rage. You came back and posted almost 1500 DPS in the same gear in a very similar length fight. So respeccing may have increased your DPS by as much as 50+%.
I'm curious in what you guys think about Dragonstrike vs the 100 dps weapons now
(Rod of The Sun King, Syphon of the Nathrezim and Rising Tide). I'm kinda stuck wondering if dragonstrike is still better then those after the haste nerf, right now im leaning towards the tide and will most likely pick it up next time it drops, just wanna see what you all think.
(Rod of The Sun King, Syphon of the Nathrezim and Rising Tide). I'm kinda stuck wondering if dragonstrike is still better then those after the haste nerf, right now im leaning towards the tide and will most likely pick it up next time it drops, just wanna see what you all think.
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Originally Posted by Hazzan
I'm curious in what you guys think about Dragonstrike vs the 100 dps weapons now
(Rod of The Sun King, Syphon of the Nathrezim and Rising Tide). I'm kinda stuck wondering if dragonstrike is still better then those after the haste nerf, right now im leaning towards the tide and will most likely pick it up next time it drops, just wanna see what you all think. |
This question is starting to turn into one of those that gets asked far too often.
Arms 4% physical damage > Fury DPS?
Let me just preface this post by saying, that I didn't see any really obvious threads when searching, so I'll just ask the question here and if its been posted elsewhere please redirect me.
Has anyone looked at the difference between arms and fury individual DPS and tried to figure out whether the 4% extra physical damage is worth the lower individual DPS?
On the debuff side of the equation, I imagine it would have a lot to do with the amount of melee DPS in the raid, but where would the cut off be? Just to go to an extreme if you had all melee/hunter DPS than surely 4% would be better than any difference in individual DPS. What if you run with 4 or 5 Melee and say 2 hunters?
That being said I think the harder side of the equation is getting even a somewhat reliable estimate of the average difference in individual DPS between a Fury warrior and an Arms warrior.
If anyone has any information or thoughts about either the benefit of the raid wide debuff or difference in arms versus fury DPS, I would really appreciate it.
Has anyone looked at the difference between arms and fury individual DPS and tried to figure out whether the 4% extra physical damage is worth the lower individual DPS?
On the debuff side of the equation, I imagine it would have a lot to do with the amount of melee DPS in the raid, but where would the cut off be? Just to go to an extreme if you had all melee/hunter DPS than surely 4% would be better than any difference in individual DPS. What if you run with 4 or 5 Melee and say 2 hunters?
That being said I think the harder side of the equation is getting even a somewhat reliable estimate of the average difference in individual DPS between a Fury warrior and an Arms warrior.
If anyone has any information or thoughts about either the benefit of the raid wide debuff or difference in arms versus fury DPS, I would really appreciate it.
I'm going to move this into the general dps warrior thread, but yes, assuming your blood frenzy warrior knows what he's doing the extra damage is more than a fury would contribute. Of course, if you have 2+ dps warriors in the raid you'll probably want the second to be fury, but a single arms warrior is better than a single fury warrior right now, all else being equal.
Also, this is assuming a 25man raid. in 10- or 5-man content fury single target dps is probably the best
Also, this is assuming a 25man raid. in 10- or 5-man content fury single target dps is probably the best
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Originally Posted by Macblade
Let me just preface this post by saying, that I didn't see any really obvious threads when searching, so I'll just ask the question here and if its been posted elsewhere please redirect me.
Has anyone looked at the difference between arms and fury individual DPS and tried to figure out whether the 4% extra physical damage is worth the lower individual DPS? On the debuff side of the equation, I imagine it would have a lot to do with the amount of melee DPS in the raid, but where would the cut off be? Just to go to an extreme if you had all melee/hunter DPS than surely 4% would be better than any difference in individual DPS. What if you run with 4 or 5 Melee and say 2 hunters? That being said I think the harder side of the equation is getting even a somewhat reliable estimate of the average difference in individual DPS between a Fury warrior and an Arms warrior. If anyone has any information or thoughts about either the benefit of the raid wide debuff or difference in arms versus fury DPS, I would really appreciate it. |
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Originally Posted by Macblade
If anyone has any information or thoughts about either the benefit of the raid wide debuff or difference in arms versus fury DPS, I would really appreciate it.
|
2. Add up the total average DPS (not instant DPS!) from all physical sources
3. Multiply by .04
If you already have a Warrior with BF, multiply the total average DPS by .9615 and subtract that value from the total average DPS.
This will give you a ballpark of the DPS that BF would provide your raid. Depending on how you stack your raid's DPS, it may or may not be worth it.
We run without a blood frenzy warriors. If you are short on DPS, you might want to look into maximizing your buffs. In general, we have a surplus of DPS and fail do to a lack of ...... brain power? Blood Frenzy doesn't help on the couple of things that don't bleed. It's not as helpful on multi-target dps. The nice thing about blood frenzy is it adds DPS to classes with better aggro control than warriors. Your mileage may vary.
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Originally Posted by Grymm
We run without a blood frenzy warriors. If you are short on DPS, you might want to look into maximizing your buffs. In general, we have a surplus of DPS and fail do to a lack of ...... brain power? Blood Frenzy doesn't help on the couple of things that don't bleed. It's not as helpful on multi-target dps. The nice thing about blood frenzy is it adds DPS to classes with better aggro control than warriors. Your mileage may vary.
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as for multi-target dps, arms AE is stronger than fury in pretty much any circumstance
that said, the gulf between fury dps and arms dps + BF contribution isn't all that big. Having one warrior spec Blood Frenzy isn't going to revolutionize your DPS or anything
Hey all, this was probably answered before, but I don't exactly have the time to read through a thousand posts.
I was just wondering what a better Metagem would be for PvE DPS - the 24AP/movement increase gem, or the 12Agil + 3% crit damage gem?
I was just wondering what a better Metagem would be for PvE DPS - the 24AP/movement increase gem, or the 12Agil + 3% crit damage gem?
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Originally Posted by Doran Blackdawn
Hey all, this was probably answered before, but I don't exactly have the time to read through a thousand posts.
I was just wondering what a better Metagem would be for PvE DPS - the 24AP/movement increase gem, or the 12Agil + 3% crit damage gem? |
Edited onPatch 2.2.3
Having read through a great number of informative and educational posts within this thread and others on this site there are a number of points which I have been unable to find answers for. These are mostly irrelevant for the vast number of your readers who appear to be in high end raid guilds but for the likes of myself who are just starting out on the Raid ladder I would appreciate it greatly if you could give me a little advice on some matters.
At the moment we are mid way through Karazhan (not much i know but we are putting in a great deal of effort to try and progress) and I am the lone raiding DPS warrior in the guild. Have spent a while in a half way house Arms spec for PvE and PvP use I decided that I would like to spec DW fury even though it is by far the hardest spec to gear up for early on.
I would like to know at which stage fury becomes effective? Reading the WoW forums people suggest aiming for around 15% hit with 27% crit and building up AP and haste rating once these targets have been achieved. I have reached 14.6% hit and 27.65% crit but I am finding that my DPS is output is substantially lower than I was achieving with my previous arms build (also sustantially lower than indicated by the DPS spreadsheet) despite using the advised "WW, BT weaving" cast rotation.
Would you delay speccing for DW until a minimum AP cap is achieved or am I missing something important? On our last Kara run I was averaging around 400dps on bosses when the spreadsheet indicated a maximum of 697.5dps was obtainable.
Thankyou in advance for your assistance.
At the moment we are mid way through Karazhan (not much i know but we are putting in a great deal of effort to try and progress) and I am the lone raiding DPS warrior in the guild. Have spent a while in a half way house Arms spec for PvE and PvP use I decided that I would like to spec DW fury even though it is by far the hardest spec to gear up for early on.
I would like to know at which stage fury becomes effective? Reading the WoW forums people suggest aiming for around 15% hit with 27% crit and building up AP and haste rating once these targets have been achieved. I have reached 14.6% hit and 27.65% crit but I am finding that my DPS is output is substantially lower than I was achieving with my previous arms build (also sustantially lower than indicated by the DPS spreadsheet) despite using the advised "WW, BT weaving" cast rotation.
Would you delay speccing for DW until a minimum AP cap is achieved or am I missing something important? On our last Kara run I was averaging around 400dps on bosses when the spreadsheet indicated a maximum of 697.5dps was obtainable.
Thankyou in advance for your assistance.
Last edited by Boorach : 10/10/07 at 12:42 PM.
Edited onPatch 2.2.3
The thing about BF, is you make a critical assumption that all of said classes are:
a.) DPSing consistently on the target
b.) Attacking the same single target
c.) Alive to begin with
So when you list all this cumultative dps- you neglect the real world factors which weigh heavily against it. Take for instance Vashj.
For P1, that BF will be optimally affected- but it is hardly needed in P1. Getting Vashj to 70% is an easy task for even guilds who are new to the encounter.
P2 that BF might affect 5 people.
P3 that BF is next to worthless during the 'make it or break it' moments where people are rooted, in/near toxin, running away with charge, or in transit to Vashj.
Solid DPS is needed at the end of fights in order to record a kill. When you are looking down the barrel at half of a raid being dead, you would quickly realize it's not what people bring to the raid for the benefit of others: it is the raw tanking/healing/cc/dps that you bring to the raid that is important, the rest is just icing. (2 arguable exceptions being Trees and Enh Shams)
a.) DPSing consistently on the target
b.) Attacking the same single target
c.) Alive to begin with
So when you list all this cumultative dps- you neglect the real world factors which weigh heavily against it. Take for instance Vashj.
For P1, that BF will be optimally affected- but it is hardly needed in P1. Getting Vashj to 70% is an easy task for even guilds who are new to the encounter.
P2 that BF might affect 5 people.
P3 that BF is next to worthless during the 'make it or break it' moments where people are rooted, in/near toxin, running away with charge, or in transit to Vashj.
Solid DPS is needed at the end of fights in order to record a kill. When you are looking down the barrel at half of a raid being dead, you would quickly realize it's not what people bring to the raid for the benefit of others: it is the raw tanking/healing/cc/dps that you bring to the raid that is important, the rest is just icing. (2 arguable exceptions being Trees and Enh Shams)
Last edited by Mjollnir : 10/10/07 at 12:38 PM.
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Originally Posted by Boorach
Would you delay speccing for DW until a minimum AP cap is achieved or am I missing something important? On our last Kara run I was averaging around 400dps on bosses when the spreadsheet indicated a maximum of 697.5dps was obtainable.
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Are you getting WF? If not, it sounds like you are doing fine, just keep working on more AP. Grab some arena gear if you haven't. The chest and legs, at least, will last a while.
First of all, you actually have the plate DPS items dropping... wich none other then a plate class can use. So gearing is rather easy.
Second, we do bring AP shout. If there is a melee group it adds a nice 400 something AP ( I use my solarian sapphire and it adds around 500 AP or so)
Third, on any "aoe" or "add" fight i pump out quite nice DPS i place higher then some locks in certain fights.
Judging by spreadsheets my DPS will up quite a bit too when i start racking up the items from hyjal / BT
And there is nothing saying i cant offtank with fury
Second, we do bring AP shout. If there is a melee group it adds a nice 400 something AP ( I use my solarian sapphire and it adds around 500 AP or so)
Third, on any "aoe" or "add" fight i pump out quite nice DPS i place higher then some locks in certain fights.
Judging by spreadsheets my DPS will up quite a bit too when i start racking up the items from hyjal / BT
And there is nothing saying i cant offtank with fury
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Originally Posted by Bronwyn
We always use CoR if the Boss isn't prone to being very bursty (e.g. Morogrim, Azgalor). And 5/5 demo is better than 2/5 demo, for one.
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Hmmm. I've DPSed as prot and it's not all that. I'd DW and spam WW/DevaxX. I kept up rage fairly well, but was gimped on AP and scaled poorly. At ~800 DPS, I was much higher in aggro than I would want to be. I guess the question becomes, does a fury warrior OT better than a Prot warrior DPSes. We just downed KT last night and got into Hijal, so I can't say too much about that, but I was tanking that trash in DPS gear with a shield on. In tank gear, my survivability is fine. You can just out gear that. My TPS is not very high in tank gear, but if I'm second kill or later in a pack, that's fine. In DPS gear, I can crank my TPS up to about 1200-1400 albeit with much less mitigation and hp. Then, if I break combat and switch gear, I can turn around and do 1200 DPS without too much effort. I think it comes down to it's better to bring good warriors than bad warriors.
I just got the [Rod of the Sun King]. I'm not super excited about it as I don't value the proc much at all, but the 2.7 speed, one hand, 100 dps aspect of it makes it very useful. The fact that it looks like a caster weapon is a little annoying. It makes my character look left handed (Talon of Azshara moving to the OH). It matches my weapon speeds at 2.7 so I'll see if I like that over the more even rage generation. My hit rating is a little low (175 ish) so I think my rage generation will be a little spiky. I do like me some big numbers though.
I just got the [Rod of the Sun King]. I'm not super excited about it as I don't value the proc much at all, but the 2.7 speed, one hand, 100 dps aspect of it makes it very useful. The fact that it looks like a caster weapon is a little annoying. It makes my character look left handed (Talon of Azshara moving to the OH). It matches my weapon speeds at 2.7 so I'll see if I like that over the more even rage generation. My hit rating is a little low (175 ish) so I think my rage generation will be a little spiky. I do like me some big numbers though.
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Originally Posted by Grymm
Hmmm. I've DPSed as prot and it's not all that. I'd DW and spam WW/DevaxX. I kept up rage fairly well, but was gimped on AP and scaled poorly. At ~800 DPS, I was much higher in aggro than I would want to be. I guess the question becomes, does a fury warrior OT better than a Prot warrior DPSes. We just downed KT last night and got into Hijal, so I can't say too much about that, but I was tanking that trash in DPS gear with a shield on. In tank gear, my survivability is fine. You can just out gear that. My TPS is not very high in tank gear, but if I'm second kill or later in a pack, that's fine. In DPS gear, I can crank my TPS up to about 1200-1400 albeit with much less mitigation and hp. Then, if I break combat and switch gear, I can turn around and do 1200 DPS without too much effort. I think it comes down to it's better to bring good warriors than bad warriors.
I just got the [Rod of the Sun King]. I'm not super excited about it as I don't value the proc much at all, but the 2.7 speed, one hand, 100 dps aspect of it makes it very useful. The fact that it looks like a caster weapon is a little annoying. It makes my character look left handed (Talon of Azshara moving to the OH). It matches my weapon speeds at 2.7 so I'll see if I like that over the more even rage generation. My hit rating is a little low (175 ish) so I think my rage generation will be a little spiky. I do like me some big numbers though. |
All I have to say is, the changes to improved berserker stance are a godsend. Threat is still very much an issue for many of the T6 encounters, but I am very surprised that they would give fury a threat reducer. I can only hope this doesn't effect our class in a negative way in future expansions, giving us a scaling -aggro talent, when we improve so much with gear.
Heard from a few sources straight AP stacking for DW 17-44-0 warriors outscales any haste rating you can currently muster as equippable gear.
Any info behind this argument?
Any info behind this argument?
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Originally Posted by Quixotic
All I have to say is, the changes to improved berserker stance are a godsend. Threat is still very much an issue for many of the T6 encounters, but I am very surprised that they would give fury a threat reducer. I can only hope this doesn't effect our class in a negative way in future expansions, giving us a scaling -aggro talent, when we improve so much with gear.
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The problem with Haste is that it's only really slithly better than hit rating for warriors. They convert at roughly the same rate: 15.8ish rating per point. In a time period that would net 100 white swings, 1% haste equates to 1 more swing and 1% hit equates to 1 more hit. This is assuming you are above the yellow miss cap but below the total hit cap. The benefit of haste then is that you get, on average, more than 1 weapon damage per weapon swing. With glancing/crits weighted, I get about 1.11 weapon damage per swing. So, 10 haste is worth about 11 hit rating. One for one, I'd generally rather have ap/crit as they will enhance my yellow damage as well. Haste was much more valuable prenerf when a % was cheaper to achieve.
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Originally Posted by Grymm
The problem with Haste is that it's only really slithly better than hit rating for warriors. They convert at roughly the same rate: 15.8ish rating per point. In a time period that would net 100 white swings, 1% haste equates to 1 more swing and 1% hit equates to 1 more hit. This is assuming you are above the yellow miss cap but below the total hit cap. The benefit of haste then is that you get, on average, more than 1 weapon damage per weapon swing. With glancing/crits weighted, I get about 1.11 weapon damage per swing. So, 10 haste is worth about 11 hit rating. One for one, I'd generally rather have ap/crit as they will enhance my yellow damage as well. Haste was much more valuable prenerf when a % was cheaper to achieve.
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Still, by definition, when you nerf one of the scaling stats, it will make sense to stack the ones that don't scale (AP/STR) to a greater degree.
This is because it will take a higher static AP to get the same per rating benefit out of post nerf haste.
The -10% threat is in addition to the already existing +10% AP if anyone was still worried
WoW-Europe.com Forums -> Wooot! Blizzard listened to the community ZOM
WoW-Europe.com Forums -> Wooot! Blizzard listened to the community ZOM
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Originally Posted by Paa
With the right gear and group a protection spec'ed warrior in fury gear is quite capable of 1000+ dps.
I've not had much chance to try it out and never tried it with a enhancement shaman but i did put out 800dps on kaz'rogal a month or so back while getting stunned to death and having my strength reduced by 75%. It is however very high threat dps. |
Link for those curious: Natural - WWS
Protection DPS is certainly possible, albeit high threat as others have mentioned. With the proper gear you can skip a talent respec once and awhile on farm encounters.
Meh, short fights like that can be misleading. You probably did 35k+ damage of that during reckless and that's without stacking it with bloodlust. Curiously, it looks like you went and respecced immediately after Rage. You came back and posted almost 1500 DPS in the same gear in a very similar length fight. So respeccing may have increased your DPS by as much as 50+%.
I'm curious in what you guys think about Dragonstrike vs the 100 dps weapons now
(Rod of The Sun King, Syphon of the Nathrezim and Rising Tide). I'm kinda stuck wondering if dragonstrike is still better then those after the haste nerf, right now im leaning towards the tide and will most likely pick it up next time it drops, just wanna see what you all think.
(Rod of The Sun King, Syphon of the Nathrezim and Rising Tide). I'm kinda stuck wondering if dragonstrike is still better then those after the haste nerf, right now im leaning towards the tide and will most likely pick it up next time it drops, just wanna see what you all think.
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Originally Posted by Hazzan
I'm curious in what you guys think about Dragonstrike vs the 100 dps weapons now
(Rod of The Sun King, Syphon of the Nathrezim and Rising Tide). I'm kinda stuck wondering if dragonstrike is still better then those after the haste nerf, right now im leaning towards the tide and will most likely pick it up next time it drops, just wanna see what you all think. |
This question is starting to turn into one of those that gets asked far too often.
Arms 4% physical damage > Fury DPS?
Let me just preface this post by saying, that I didn't see any really obvious threads when searching, so I'll just ask the question here and if its been posted elsewhere please redirect me.
Has anyone looked at the difference between arms and fury individual DPS and tried to figure out whether the 4% extra physical damage is worth the lower individual DPS?
On the debuff side of the equation, I imagine it would have a lot to do with the amount of melee DPS in the raid, but where would the cut off be? Just to go to an extreme if you had all melee/hunter DPS than surely 4% would be better than any difference in individual DPS. What if you run with 4 or 5 Melee and say 2 hunters?
That being said I think the harder side of the equation is getting even a somewhat reliable estimate of the average difference in individual DPS between a Fury warrior and an Arms warrior.
If anyone has any information or thoughts about either the benefit of the raid wide debuff or difference in arms versus fury DPS, I would really appreciate it.
Has anyone looked at the difference between arms and fury individual DPS and tried to figure out whether the 4% extra physical damage is worth the lower individual DPS?
On the debuff side of the equation, I imagine it would have a lot to do with the amount of melee DPS in the raid, but where would the cut off be? Just to go to an extreme if you had all melee/hunter DPS than surely 4% would be better than any difference in individual DPS. What if you run with 4 or 5 Melee and say 2 hunters?
That being said I think the harder side of the equation is getting even a somewhat reliable estimate of the average difference in individual DPS between a Fury warrior and an Arms warrior.
If anyone has any information or thoughts about either the benefit of the raid wide debuff or difference in arms versus fury DPS, I would really appreciate it.
I'm going to move this into the general dps warrior thread, but yes, assuming your blood frenzy warrior knows what he's doing the extra damage is more than a fury would contribute. Of course, if you have 2+ dps warriors in the raid you'll probably want the second to be fury, but a single arms warrior is better than a single fury warrior right now, all else being equal.
Also, this is assuming a 25man raid. in 10- or 5-man content fury single target dps is probably the best
Also, this is assuming a 25man raid. in 10- or 5-man content fury single target dps is probably the best
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Originally Posted by Macblade
Let me just preface this post by saying, that I didn't see any really obvious threads when searching, so I'll just ask the question here and if its been posted elsewhere please redirect me.
Has anyone looked at the difference between arms and fury individual DPS and tried to figure out whether the 4% extra physical damage is worth the lower individual DPS? On the debuff side of the equation, I imagine it would have a lot to do with the amount of melee DPS in the raid, but where would the cut off be? Just to go to an extreme if you had all melee/hunter DPS than surely 4% would be better than any difference in individual DPS. What if you run with 4 or 5 Melee and say 2 hunters? That being said I think the harder side of the equation is getting even a somewhat reliable estimate of the average difference in individual DPS between a Fury warrior and an Arms warrior. If anyone has any information or thoughts about either the benefit of the raid wide debuff or difference in arms versus fury DPS, I would really appreciate it. |
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Originally Posted by Macblade
If anyone has any information or thoughts about either the benefit of the raid wide debuff or difference in arms versus fury DPS, I would really appreciate it.
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2. Add up the total average DPS (not instant DPS!) from all physical sources
3. Multiply by .04
If you already have a Warrior with BF, multiply the total average DPS by .9615 and subtract that value from the total average DPS.
This will give you a ballpark of the DPS that BF would provide your raid. Depending on how you stack your raid's DPS, it may or may not be worth it.
We run without a blood frenzy warriors. If you are short on DPS, you might want to look into maximizing your buffs. In general, we have a surplus of DPS and fail do to a lack of ...... brain power? Blood Frenzy doesn't help on the couple of things that don't bleed. It's not as helpful on multi-target dps. The nice thing about blood frenzy is it adds DPS to classes with better aggro control than warriors. Your mileage may vary.
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Originally Posted by Grymm
We run without a blood frenzy warriors. If you are short on DPS, you might want to look into maximizing your buffs. In general, we have a surplus of DPS and fail do to a lack of ...... brain power? Blood Frenzy doesn't help on the couple of things that don't bleed. It's not as helpful on multi-target dps. The nice thing about blood frenzy is it adds DPS to classes with better aggro control than warriors. Your mileage may vary.
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as for multi-target dps, arms AE is stronger than fury in pretty much any circumstance
that said, the gulf between fury dps and arms dps + BF contribution isn't all that big. Having one warrior spec Blood Frenzy isn't going to revolutionize your DPS or anything
Hey all, this was probably answered before, but I don't exactly have the time to read through a thousand posts.
I was just wondering what a better Metagem would be for PvE DPS - the 24AP/movement increase gem, or the 12Agil + 3% crit damage gem?
I was just wondering what a better Metagem would be for PvE DPS - the 24AP/movement increase gem, or the 12Agil + 3% crit damage gem?
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Originally Posted by Doran Blackdawn
Hey all, this was probably answered before, but I don't exactly have the time to read through a thousand posts.
I was just wondering what a better Metagem would be for PvE DPS - the 24AP/movement increase gem, or the 12Agil + 3% crit damage gem? |
Edited onPatch 2.2.3
Having read through a great number of informative and educational posts within this thread and others on this site there are a number of points which I have been unable to find answers for. These are mostly irrelevant for the vast number of your readers who appear to be in high end raid guilds but for the likes of myself who are just starting out on the Raid ladder I would appreciate it greatly if you could give me a little advice on some matters.
At the moment we are mid way through Karazhan (not much i know but we are putting in a great deal of effort to try and progress) and I am the lone raiding DPS warrior in the guild. Have spent a while in a half way house Arms spec for PvE and PvP use I decided that I would like to spec DW fury even though it is by far the hardest spec to gear up for early on.
I would like to know at which stage fury becomes effective? Reading the WoW forums people suggest aiming for around 15% hit with 27% crit and building up AP and haste rating once these targets have been achieved. I have reached 14.6% hit and 27.65% crit but I am finding that my DPS is output is substantially lower than I was achieving with my previous arms build (also sustantially lower than indicated by the DPS spreadsheet) despite using the advised "WW, BT weaving" cast rotation.
Would you delay speccing for DW until a minimum AP cap is achieved or am I missing something important? On our last Kara run I was averaging around 400dps on bosses when the spreadsheet indicated a maximum of 697.5dps was obtainable.
Thankyou in advance for your assistance.
At the moment we are mid way through Karazhan (not much i know but we are putting in a great deal of effort to try and progress) and I am the lone raiding DPS warrior in the guild. Have spent a while in a half way house Arms spec for PvE and PvP use I decided that I would like to spec DW fury even though it is by far the hardest spec to gear up for early on.
I would like to know at which stage fury becomes effective? Reading the WoW forums people suggest aiming for around 15% hit with 27% crit and building up AP and haste rating once these targets have been achieved. I have reached 14.6% hit and 27.65% crit but I am finding that my DPS is output is substantially lower than I was achieving with my previous arms build (also sustantially lower than indicated by the DPS spreadsheet) despite using the advised "WW, BT weaving" cast rotation.
Would you delay speccing for DW until a minimum AP cap is achieved or am I missing something important? On our last Kara run I was averaging around 400dps on bosses when the spreadsheet indicated a maximum of 697.5dps was obtainable.
Thankyou in advance for your assistance.
Last edited by Boorach : 10/10/07 at 12:42 PM.
Edited onPatch 2.2.3
The thing about BF, is you make a critical assumption that all of said classes are:
a.) DPSing consistently on the target
b.) Attacking the same single target
c.) Alive to begin with
So when you list all this cumultative dps- you neglect the real world factors which weigh heavily against it. Take for instance Vashj.
For P1, that BF will be optimally affected- but it is hardly needed in P1. Getting Vashj to 70% is an easy task for even guilds who are new to the encounter.
P2 that BF might affect 5 people.
P3 that BF is next to worthless during the 'make it or break it' moments where people are rooted, in/near toxin, running away with charge, or in transit to Vashj.
Solid DPS is needed at the end of fights in order to record a kill. When you are looking down the barrel at half of a raid being dead, you would quickly realize it's not what people bring to the raid for the benefit of others: it is the raw tanking/healing/cc/dps that you bring to the raid that is important, the rest is just icing. (2 arguable exceptions being Trees and Enh Shams)
a.) DPSing consistently on the target
b.) Attacking the same single target
c.) Alive to begin with
So when you list all this cumultative dps- you neglect the real world factors which weigh heavily against it. Take for instance Vashj.
For P1, that BF will be optimally affected- but it is hardly needed in P1. Getting Vashj to 70% is an easy task for even guilds who are new to the encounter.
P2 that BF might affect 5 people.
P3 that BF is next to worthless during the 'make it or break it' moments where people are rooted, in/near toxin, running away with charge, or in transit to Vashj.
Solid DPS is needed at the end of fights in order to record a kill. When you are looking down the barrel at half of a raid being dead, you would quickly realize it's not what people bring to the raid for the benefit of others: it is the raw tanking/healing/cc/dps that you bring to the raid that is important, the rest is just icing. (2 arguable exceptions being Trees and Enh Shams)
Last edited by Mjollnir : 10/10/07 at 12:38 PM.
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Originally Posted by Boorach
Would you delay speccing for DW until a minimum AP cap is achieved or am I missing something important? On our last Kara run I was averaging around 400dps on bosses when the spreadsheet indicated a maximum of 697.5dps was obtainable.
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Are you getting WF? If not, it sounds like you are doing fine, just keep working on more AP. Grab some arena gear if you haven't. The chest and legs, at least, will last a while.
Edited onPatch 2.2.3
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Originally Posted by Mjollnir
The thing about BF, is you make a critical assumption that all of said classes are:
a.) DPSing consistently on the target b.) Attacking the same single target c.) Alive to begin with So when you list all this cumultative dps- you neglect the real world factors which weigh heavily against it. Take for instance Vashj. For P1, that BF will be optimally affected- but it is hardly needed in P1. Getting Vashj to 70% is an easy task for even guilds who are new to the encounter. P2 that BF might affect 5 people. P3 that BF is next to worthless during the 'make it or break it' moments where people are rooted, in/near toxin, running away with charge, or in transit to Vashj. Solid DPS is needed at the end of fights in order to record a kill. When you are looking down the barrel at half of a raid being dead, you would quickly realize it's not what people bring to the raid for the benefit of others: it is the raw tanking/healing/cc/dps that you bring to the raid that is important, the rest is just icing. (2 arguable exceptions being Trees and Enh Shams) |
b) Why would melee be splitting DPS?
c) A dead DW Fury warrior will do just as little damage while dead
As for Stage 3 on Vashj - again, a rooted/dead/running Fury warrior will also do zero DPS. At the same time Vashj is a god-awful fight for all melee involved.
Last edited by Kiranat : 10/10/07 at 1:05 PM.
Meta gem choices are discussed elsewhere, but I will give my opinion. Neither of these gems is best IMO for a fury warrior. I prefer the Thundering Skyfire Diamond (chance to increase attack speed). It has been tested to have up to 1.6 PPM with what seems to be a hidden 40 second cooldown and increases haste by 240 for 6 seconds when it procs. The Relentless Earthstorm Diamond seems more suited to a rogue that gets more benefit from the 12 agi that a DPS warrior does. The Swift Skyfire miight be nice at low gear levels where you will get more bang out of 24 AP, but the TSD scales better at higher gear levels in this fury warriors opinion.
Yes I know if you armory me right now, I am prot, I tanked a Kara alt run last night, but I am fury for 25-man raiding, and I feel I have this DPS warrior thing down pretty good.
Yes I know if you armory me right now, I am prot, I tanked a Kara alt run last night, but I am fury for 25-man raiding, and I feel I have this DPS warrior thing down pretty good.
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Originally Posted by Kemeran
Meta gem choices are discussed elsewhere, but I will give my opinion. Neither of these gems is best IMO for a fury warrior. I prefer the Thundering Skyfire Diamond (chance to increase attack speed). It has been tested to have up to 1.6 PPM with what seems to be a hidden 40 second cooldown and increases haste by 240 for 6 seconds when it procs. The Relentless Earthstorm Diamond seems more suited to a rogue that gets more benefit from the 12 agi that a DPS warrior does. The Swift Skyfire miight be nice at low gear levels where you will get more bang out of 24 AP, but the TSD scales better at higher gear levels in this fury warriors opinion.
Yes I know if you armory me right now, I am prot, I tanked a Kara alt run last night, but I am fury for 25-man raiding, and I feel I have this DPS warrior thing down pretty good. |
I'd like to see where you got the 1.6 PPM from on the Thundering Skyfire diamond though, since when I ran with it it didn't proc that much (though it was fun seeing my 2.6 MH drop to ~1.0ish with meta haste trinket and 30% flurry).
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Originally Posted by Kiranat
a) Short of threat - which tends to not be a problem for 2h builds so much - why would it matter? If you're stopping DPS it doesn't matter what spec you are, you'll be doing zero DPS.
b) Why would melee be splitting DPS? c) A dead DW Fury warrior will do just as little damage while dead As for Stage 3 on Vashj - again, a rooted/dead/running Fury warrior will also do zero DPS. At the same time Vashj is a god-awful fight for all melee involved. |
Edited onPatch 2.2.3
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Originally Posted by Kiranat
a) Short of threat - which tends to not be a problem for 2h builds so much - why would it matter? If you're stopping DPS it doesn't matter what spec you are, you'll be doing zero DPS.
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Last edited by Laknor : 10/11/07 at 7:39 AM.
Question to you all
I just took enchanting as my secondary profession and now I got 375 skill, and my question is.
Weapon damage or +4 all stats on rings? You can see my armory for for info about my current gear and such.
Best regards
Buttlern
I just took enchanting as my secondary profession and now I got 375 skill, and my question is.
Weapon damage or +4 all stats on rings? You can see my armory for for info about my current gear and such.
Best regards
Buttlern
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Originally Posted by Buttlern
Question to you all
I just took enchanting as my secondary profession and now I got 375 skill, and my question is. Weapon damage or +4 all stats on rings? You can see my armory for for info about my current gear and such. Best regards Buttlern |
Personally I'd go with +4 to all stats (16 AP and 8 agi giving a nice boost to both your AP and your crit and being affected by kings).
Apart from white damage only your HS & Whirlwind will be affected by the weapon damage enchant, the +4 to all stats will affect everything.
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Originally Posted by Laknor
I guess it's just me then, but i do have problems with threat, i guess there is nothing to do but pick up [Prism of Inner Calm]. If anyone has any suggestions of doing less threat, i'm all ears. I tend to run a ms/slam/ww/slam/rinse/repeat rotation. If i see i'm too high on threat, i usually just refresh BS or do a demoshout/thunderclap.
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These are the only 2 occasions I use it though, if you don't have one I guess it's not worth farming AQ40 for it.
In general I have zero threat problems when dpsing with 33/28 compared to 17/44, as long as I have salvation of course. My dps is ~200 lower and I use a lot less "agro skills" like HS when I am arms/BF specced.
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Originally Posted by Mjollnir
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I'm still not sure what point you're trying to make here; "the debuff is active, but the many failures that apply to its optimal usage" doesn't make sense. Are you saying that blood frenzy isn't worth it in a MS build, or that blood frenzy doesn't make arms dps comparable to fury dps, or what?
I understand what you mean about the power of the debuff going down the more dead physical DPS there are in the raid, but successful T6 boss kills don't typically allow for many deaths to begin with, at least not for most of the fight.
I believe he is referring to the uptime of the actual debuff itself, rather than the assumed power of 100% uptime.
Dry streaks on crits, other debuffs knocking Blood Frenzy off the list, whatever the reason, for the most part, you can't assume that Blood Frenzy has a 100% uptime and therefore affects all physical damage for every second of the fight/raid.
Dry streaks on crits, other debuffs knocking Blood Frenzy off the list, whatever the reason, for the most part, you can't assume that Blood Frenzy has a 100% uptime and therefore affects all physical damage for every second of the fight/raid.
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Originally Posted by Fogbug
I'm still not sure what point you're trying to make here; "the debuff is active, but the many failures that apply to its optimal usage" doesn't make sense. Are you saying that blood frenzy isn't worth it in a MS build, or that blood frenzy doesn't make arms dps comparable to fury dps, or what?
I understand what you mean about the power of the debuff going down the more dead physical DPS there are in the raid, but successful T6 boss kills don't typically allow for many deaths to begin with, at least not for most of the fight. |
Hence the 'many failures' to 'optimal usage' of the debuff. Which brings it back to my statement that raw dps/tanking/healing/cc is what is important, group stacking and raid debuff choice is secondary. Calculating x number of classes doing an avg of y damage each, contributing an optimal value of z additional dps thanks to BF is good, but it neglects any senario save for a simple tank'n'spank.
In a fight like Patchwerk, or Lurker, yes, I can see bringing an MS-specced BF debuffer. But when you incorporate multiple targets, movement, and/or disabled dps (remote toy, roots, mind control etc), you quickly devalue its worth. Vashj is the example used, as all aspects are present.
Edited onPatch 2.2.3
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Originally Posted by Mjollnir
You didn't read it right. The argument is that BF benefits x number of classes. My argument is that the debuff is active, but the many failures that apply to its optimal usage. This isn't a MS vs fury debate, as you have interpreted it.
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Originally Posted by Mjollnir
In a fight like Patchwerk, or Lurker, yes, I can see bringing an MS-specced BF debuffer. But when you incorporate multiple targets, movement, and/or disabled dps (remote toy, roots, mind control etc), you quickly devalue its worth. Vashj is the example used, as all aspects are present.
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Past that I still can't think of any fights where there's any real multiple-target DPS.
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Originally Posted by Gaise
I believe he is referring to the uptime of the actual debuff itself, rather than the assumed power of 100% uptime.
Dry streaks on crits, other debuffs knocking Blood Frenzy off the list, whatever the reason, for the most part, you can't assume that Blood Frenzy has a 100% uptime and therefore affects all physical damage for every second of the fight/raid. |
Last edited by Kiranat : 10/11/07 at 12:22 PM.
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Originally Posted by Kiranat
The chance of not critting for 12 seconds is pretty slim, and the debuff can be reapplied with Rend (lol) in a pinch.
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Originally Posted by Kiranat
What I gathered from your post is that you don't believe BF is viable because of X number of circumstances that need to be met, I was simply trying to point out that (with the exception of P2 Vashj) it's a moot point.
I still don't see your point here.... In fact when your BF warrior is rooted he's effectively doing more damage than anyone else who is rooted since BF still affects hunters and any melee who aren't rooted. If you're toyed the same applies, and if you're MCed it still applies. Past that I still can't think of any fights where there's any real multiple-target DPS. |
Breaking it down:
Boss is at 100%. Let's say 8 physical dps present, doing a total of 8000dps. In lieu of a fury warrior, the raid brings a BF debuffer. An additional 320dps is provided.
Boss is at 20%. There are only 4 physical dps present (BF is one of them), doing a total of 4000dps. The worth of your debuff is now 160dps.
As your number of physical dps declines, be it to deaths, being cc'ed, split, or in transit to/from the target with the debuff, so does the overall worth of BF. Crunch time isn't when things are at the start of a fight or when everything is going smooth, crunch time is when you're down to the wire, and you need to do everything you can with what you've got.
For you to bring a raw dpser, such as fury, in lieu of your BF debuffer, they will need to make up the difference that BF would otherwise generate. We'll say that for an equally geared, equally played, equally group stacked choice, fury will put out 200dps more than your arms guy (this number is arbitrary, but I hope no one tries to argue fury dps > arms dps, especially following the WF totem nerf).
Boss is at 100%. 8 physical dps, doing a total of 8200dps.
Boss is at 20%. 4 physical dps (fury is one of them), doing a total of 4300dps.
DPS is needed at the end of the fight when things have hit the fan. Consistancy is the main ingredient to success, both the microcasm of this BF debate, as well as the macrocasm of guild leadership. If I was making up a raid, I'm going to bring players and group makeup that yield consistant results.
The numbers chosen are arbitrary to make the point. I'm saying bringing a BF debuffer is nice, but in the end what is most important is someone in that melee dps slot that is:
1. consistant in their dps contribution (from start to finish of a fight), not the buffs/debuffs they provide
2. significant in what they contribute via dps (an obvious no-brainer)
Edit: To my knowledge, nowhere did I mention anything about the buff not being active? 'Apply rend in a pinch lol' is cute however.
Edited onPatch 2.2.3
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Originally Posted by Mjollnir
Almost. From the Vashj encounter I draw my examples, but they can be applied to any fight.
Breaking it down: Boss is at 100%. Let's say 8 physical dps present, doing a total of 8000dps. In lieu of a fury warrior, the raid brings a BF debuffer. An additional 320dps is provided. Boss is at 20%. There are only 4 physical dps present (BF is one of them), doing a total of 4000dps. The worth of your debuff is now 160dps. As your number of physical dps declines, be it to deaths, being cc'ed, split, or in transit to/from the target with the debuff, so does the overall worth of BF. Crunch time isn't when things are at the start of a fight or when everything is going smooth, crunch time is when you're down to the wire, and you need to do everything you can with what you've got. For you to bring a raw dpser, such as fury, in lieu of your BF debuffer, they will need to make up the difference that BF would otherwise generate. We'll say that for an equally geared, equally played, equally group stacked choice, fury will put out 200dps more than your arms guy (this number is arbitrary, but I hope no one tries to argue fury dps > arms dps, especially following the WF totem nerf). Boss is at 100%. 8 physical dps, doing a total of 8200dps. Boss is at 20%. 4 physical dps (fury is one of them), doing a total of 4300dps. DPS is needed at the end of the fight when things have hit the fan. Consistancy is the main ingredient to success, both the microcasm of this BF debate, as well as the macrocasm of guild leadership. If I was making up a raid, I'm going to bring players and group makeup that yield consistant results. The numbers chosen are arbitrary to make the point. I'm saying bringing a BF debuffer is nice, but in the end what is most important is someone in that melee dps slot that is: 1. consistant in their dps contribution (from start to finish of a fight), not the buffs/debuffs they provide 2. significant in what they contribute via dps (an obvious no-brainer) Edit: To my knowledge, nowhere did I mention anything about the buff not being active? 'Apply rend in a pinch lol' is cute however. |
I'm consistently top 5 on meters in my guild, generally only 50-60 DPS behind our fury warrior (depends alot on the fight though). Yes, BF is better with more people alive, at the same time on the note of consistency there are only two fights where "random" deaths should ever be an issue. Gorefiend being a huge one, and having god-awful luck on Vashj being the other.
The numbers in your examples are a touch off as well, from example 1 to 2 the raid loses 120 DPS :P You need to keep in mind that BF scales very, very well. When we were first going into BT BF was giving us ~200-225 DPS increase as our melee DPS averaged about 1000-1400 per person, currently our lowest melee DPSer (feral druid) is doing about 1200 DPS, me at 1525, fury at ~1600, and rogues varying between 1700-1900 depending on gear, so it is now netting almost 500 DPS. This is using Gorefiend as an example, as there are really no threat limitations.
The downtime was in reference to a different post, and no, I have never once had Rend on my hotbar since about level 8 :P
Last edited by Kiranat : 10/11/07 at 12:49 PM.
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Originally Posted by Kiranat
The thing with this argument is that it's the exact same deal with a feral druid or enh shaman for use in a DPS group. Their DPS on their own is quite lackluster, but their buffs (moreso with the shaman) are what sell them.
I'm consistently top 5 on meters in my guild, generally only 50-60 DPS behind our fury warrior (depends alot on the fight though). Yes, BF is better with more people alive, at the same time on the note of consistency there are only two fights where "random" deaths should ever be an issue. Gorefiend being a huge one, and having god-awful luck on Vashj being the other. The downtime was in reference to a different post, and no, I have never once had Rend on my hotbar since about level 8 :P |
50-60dps tells me you either out-gear him, out-experience him, out-consumable him... or are just plain better than him.
I do, for the defensive stance hotbar, but don't ask me how or why. >< (I do apologize for misreading the first time, your response was indeed to a different poster.)
Edited onPatch 2.2.3
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Originally Posted by Mjollnir
I don't know what enh sham you run with, but ours puts out about 90% of our rogues' dps. This solidifies my point. I would rather bring a high dpser than a mediocre who is going to boost 4 others.
50-60dps tells me you either out-gear him, out-experience him, out-consumable him... or are just plain better than him. I do, for the defensive stance hotbar, but don't ask me how or why. >< (I do apologize for misreading the first time, your response was indeed to a different poster.) |
Zaidel (Enh Shaman) does about 1350 DPS, this could be another 50 or so higher, but he does some totem twisting which eats up GCDs.
Shaitain (our best Rogue) does roughly 1850 DPS.
There have been some posts in the past with people not being able to figure out our fury warrior's damage, and I really can't tell you. We've both done the same content, have the same "tier" of gear, and use the same pots/flasks/food. I have never had the chance to play with any other fury warriors of equivalent gear so I can't really tell you.
My roommate is in your guild - unless you have any objection I'd like to take a look over your guild's damage meters and raid makeup so I can get a better idea of the comparisons between our makeups
We already have Gorefiend down for the week - I'll do my best to remember to WWS it (or Winterchill/Anetheron) when we do them.
Last edited by Kiranat : 10/11/07 at 1:05 PM.
I have seen a couple of things on Gorefiend that might account for DPS oddness.
Gorefiend loves to kick the shit out of WF totems. They need to be redropped a lot.
Also one time my DPS was just terrible on him and I could not figure out why at first glance. I went back and looked at the WWS more, and me and one of the Rogues (whose DPS was also way below average) were getting parried like crazy, as if we were attacking from his front, which we definitely were not. I have seen subsequent parses where he has parried me multiple times as well, its like when he casts shadow of death or incinerate on folks, he is actually turning to face them or something. I mean I see him do that visually on my client but I figured he was not really supposed to be facing them for melee purposes.
Gorefiend loves to kick the shit out of WF totems. They need to be redropped a lot.
Also one time my DPS was just terrible on him and I could not figure out why at first glance. I went back and looked at the WWS more, and me and one of the Rogues (whose DPS was also way below average) were getting parried like crazy, as if we were attacking from his front, which we definitely were not. I have seen subsequent parses where he has parried me multiple times as well, its like when he casts shadow of death or incinerate on folks, he is actually turning to face them or something. I mean I see him do that visually on my client but I figured he was not really supposed to be facing them for melee purposes.
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Originally Posted by Kiranat
Again - Gorefiend as an example:
Zaidel (Enh Shaman) does about 1350 DPS, this could be another 50 or so higher, but he does some totem twisting which eats up GCDs. Shaitain (our best Rogue) does roughly 1850 DPS. There have been some posts in the past with people not being able to figure out our fury warrior's damage, and I really can't tell you. We've both done the same content, have the same "tier" of gear, and use the same pots/flasks/food. I have never had the chance to play with any other fury warriors of equivalent gear so I can't really tell you. My roommate is in your guild - unless you have any objection I'd like to take a look over your guild's damage meters and raid makeup so I can get a better idea of the comparisons between our makeups We already have Gorefiend down for the week - I'll do my best to remember to WWS it (or Winterchill/Anetheron) when we do them. |
I've no objection- but you'll fail to find any solid comparisons in BB. I am rarely pure dps (fury) spec, and even rarer that I'm placed with the enh sham now that an inactive MSer has returned. I'm usually placed in the leftover group as I am brought to OT stuff and dps when not needed to tank (a pity, but there is only so much room for melee dps slots).
Edit: Who is this scoundrel you claim as roommate?
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Originally Posted by Mjollnir
In a fight like Patchwerk, or Lurker, yes, I can see bringing an MS-specced BF debuffer. But when you incorporate multiple targets, movement, and/or disabled dps (remote toy, roots, mind control etc), you quickly devalue its worth. Vashj is the example used, as all aspects are present.
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Assuming ~100% warrior uptime (Which is possible in most fights, we have an easier time getting back to a target compared to rogues and enh shamans) the contribution from blood frenzy is around Physical damage x.0385. if you don't have a BF warrior then the contribution would be Physical dps +4%. If you want to figure out if BF is worth it, just apply those numbers to your parses; BF falling off isn't something that happens with any frequency at all, given that deep wounds lasts 12 seconds
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Originally Posted by Eledorian
I ran with the Thundering Skyfire Diamond myself for a while (pre-2.2 mostly). I'll agree that it's a nice meta gem but I think over time Relentless Earthstorm will end up giving a bigger damage increase then Thundering Skyfire. It increases your crit by 0.36% and it increases the damage from crits by 3% (206% for white crits/226% for special crits).
I'd like to see where you got the 1.6 PPM from on the Thundering Skyfire diamond though, since when I ran with it it didn't proc that much (though it was fun seeing my 2.6 MH drop to ~1.0ish with meta haste trinket and 30% flurry). |
Has anyone else had victory rush light up on Naj'entus? It only happened this previous week, and both myself, and our MS warrior both had it light up for us.
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Originally Posted by Fogbug
But Vashj is an exception. The hardest T5 fights (Vashj and Kael) aren't as good for BF, but BF can still contribute a lot to them, and it shines on pretty much every T6 fight
... Council is a multi target fight |
Council is a multi target fight, however (at least the way we do it) all of the melee is attacking Gathios anyway.
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Originally Posted by Quixotic
Has anyone else had victory rush light up on Naj'entus? It only happened this previous week, and both myself, and our MS warrior both had it light up for us.
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I got MCed on our KT kill last night 4 or 5 times. During which, I killed a felguard, a rogue, and almost downed a couple others. Clothies make for big crits. I think it healthily contributed to me being a solid #2 on phase 4/5 damage. Killing the rogue and felguard both procced VR. Their pain feeds my dps and I'm ok with that.
Edited onPatch 2.2.3
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Originally Posted by Mjollnir
The thing about BF, is you make a critical assumption that all of said classes are:
a.) DPSing consistently on the target b.) Attacking the same single target c.) Alive to begin with So when you list all this cumultative dps- you neglect the real world factors which weigh heavily against it. Take for instance Vashj. For P1, that BF will be optimally affected- but it is hardly needed in P1. Getting Vashj to 70% is an easy task for even guilds who are new to the encounter. P2 that BF might affect 5 people. P3 that BF is next to worthless during the 'make it or break it' moments where people are rooted, in/near toxin, running away with charge, or in transit to Vashj. Solid DPS is needed at the end of fights in order to record a kill. When you are looking down the barrel at half of a raid being dead, you would quickly realize it's not what people bring to the raid for the benefit of others: it is the raw tanking/healing/cc/dps that you bring to the raid that is important, the rest is just icing. (2 arguable exceptions being Trees and Enh Shams) |
b) Why would melee be splitting DPS?
c) A dead DW Fury warrior will do just as little damage while dead
As for Stage 3 on Vashj - again, a rooted/dead/running Fury warrior will also do zero DPS. At the same time Vashj is a god-awful fight for all melee involved.
Last edited by Kiranat : 10/10/07 at 1:05 PM.
Meta gem choices are discussed elsewhere, but I will give my opinion. Neither of these gems is best IMO for a fury warrior. I prefer the Thundering Skyfire Diamond (chance to increase attack speed). It has been tested to have up to 1.6 PPM with what seems to be a hidden 40 second cooldown and increases haste by 240 for 6 seconds when it procs. The Relentless Earthstorm Diamond seems more suited to a rogue that gets more benefit from the 12 agi that a DPS warrior does. The Swift Skyfire miight be nice at low gear levels where you will get more bang out of 24 AP, but the TSD scales better at higher gear levels in this fury warriors opinion.
Yes I know if you armory me right now, I am prot, I tanked a Kara alt run last night, but I am fury for 25-man raiding, and I feel I have this DPS warrior thing down pretty good.
Yes I know if you armory me right now, I am prot, I tanked a Kara alt run last night, but I am fury for 25-man raiding, and I feel I have this DPS warrior thing down pretty good.
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Originally Posted by Kemeran
Meta gem choices are discussed elsewhere, but I will give my opinion. Neither of these gems is best IMO for a fury warrior. I prefer the Thundering Skyfire Diamond (chance to increase attack speed). It has been tested to have up to 1.6 PPM with what seems to be a hidden 40 second cooldown and increases haste by 240 for 6 seconds when it procs. The Relentless Earthstorm Diamond seems more suited to a rogue that gets more benefit from the 12 agi that a DPS warrior does. The Swift Skyfire miight be nice at low gear levels where you will get more bang out of 24 AP, but the TSD scales better at higher gear levels in this fury warriors opinion.
Yes I know if you armory me right now, I am prot, I tanked a Kara alt run last night, but I am fury for 25-man raiding, and I feel I have this DPS warrior thing down pretty good. |
I'd like to see where you got the 1.6 PPM from on the Thundering Skyfire diamond though, since when I ran with it it didn't proc that much (though it was fun seeing my 2.6 MH drop to ~1.0ish with meta haste trinket and 30% flurry).
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Originally Posted by Kiranat
a) Short of threat - which tends to not be a problem for 2h builds so much - why would it matter? If you're stopping DPS it doesn't matter what spec you are, you'll be doing zero DPS.
b) Why would melee be splitting DPS? c) A dead DW Fury warrior will do just as little damage while dead As for Stage 3 on Vashj - again, a rooted/dead/running Fury warrior will also do zero DPS. At the same time Vashj is a god-awful fight for all melee involved. |
Edited onPatch 2.2.3
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Originally Posted by Kiranat
a) Short of threat - which tends to not be a problem for 2h builds so much - why would it matter? If you're stopping DPS it doesn't matter what spec you are, you'll be doing zero DPS.
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Last edited by Laknor : 10/11/07 at 7:39 AM.
Question to you all
I just took enchanting as my secondary profession and now I got 375 skill, and my question is.
Weapon damage or +4 all stats on rings? You can see my armory for for info about my current gear and such.
Best regards
Buttlern
I just took enchanting as my secondary profession and now I got 375 skill, and my question is.
Weapon damage or +4 all stats on rings? You can see my armory for for info about my current gear and such.
Best regards
Buttlern
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Originally Posted by Buttlern
Question to you all
I just took enchanting as my secondary profession and now I got 375 skill, and my question is. Weapon damage or +4 all stats on rings? You can see my armory for for info about my current gear and such. Best regards Buttlern |
Personally I'd go with +4 to all stats (16 AP and 8 agi giving a nice boost to both your AP and your crit and being affected by kings).
Apart from white damage only your HS & Whirlwind will be affected by the weapon damage enchant, the +4 to all stats will affect everything.
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Originally Posted by Laknor
I guess it's just me then, but i do have problems with threat, i guess there is nothing to do but pick up [Prism of Inner Calm]. If anyone has any suggestions of doing less threat, i'm all ears. I tend to run a ms/slam/ww/slam/rinse/repeat rotation. If i see i'm too high on threat, i usually just refresh BS or do a demoshout/thunderclap.
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These are the only 2 occasions I use it though, if you don't have one I guess it's not worth farming AQ40 for it.
In general I have zero threat problems when dpsing with 33/28 compared to 17/44, as long as I have salvation of course. My dps is ~200 lower and I use a lot less "agro skills" like HS when I am arms/BF specced.
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Originally Posted by Mjollnir
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I'm still not sure what point you're trying to make here; "the debuff is active, but the many failures that apply to its optimal usage" doesn't make sense. Are you saying that blood frenzy isn't worth it in a MS build, or that blood frenzy doesn't make arms dps comparable to fury dps, or what?
I understand what you mean about the power of the debuff going down the more dead physical DPS there are in the raid, but successful T6 boss kills don't typically allow for many deaths to begin with, at least not for most of the fight.
I believe he is referring to the uptime of the actual debuff itself, rather than the assumed power of 100% uptime.
Dry streaks on crits, other debuffs knocking Blood Frenzy off the list, whatever the reason, for the most part, you can't assume that Blood Frenzy has a 100% uptime and therefore affects all physical damage for every second of the fight/raid.
Dry streaks on crits, other debuffs knocking Blood Frenzy off the list, whatever the reason, for the most part, you can't assume that Blood Frenzy has a 100% uptime and therefore affects all physical damage for every second of the fight/raid.
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Originally Posted by Fogbug
I'm still not sure what point you're trying to make here; "the debuff is active, but the many failures that apply to its optimal usage" doesn't make sense. Are you saying that blood frenzy isn't worth it in a MS build, or that blood frenzy doesn't make arms dps comparable to fury dps, or what?
I understand what you mean about the power of the debuff going down the more dead physical DPS there are in the raid, but successful T6 boss kills don't typically allow for many deaths to begin with, at least not for most of the fight. |
Hence the 'many failures' to 'optimal usage' of the debuff. Which brings it back to my statement that raw dps/tanking/healing/cc is what is important, group stacking and raid debuff choice is secondary. Calculating x number of classes doing an avg of y damage each, contributing an optimal value of z additional dps thanks to BF is good, but it neglects any senario save for a simple tank'n'spank.
In a fight like Patchwerk, or Lurker, yes, I can see bringing an MS-specced BF debuffer. But when you incorporate multiple targets, movement, and/or disabled dps (remote toy, roots, mind control etc), you quickly devalue its worth. Vashj is the example used, as all aspects are present.
Edited onPatch 2.2.3
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Originally Posted by Mjollnir
You didn't read it right. The argument is that BF benefits x number of classes. My argument is that the debuff is active, but the many failures that apply to its optimal usage. This isn't a MS vs fury debate, as you have interpreted it.
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Originally Posted by Mjollnir
In a fight like Patchwerk, or Lurker, yes, I can see bringing an MS-specced BF debuffer. But when you incorporate multiple targets, movement, and/or disabled dps (remote toy, roots, mind control etc), you quickly devalue its worth. Vashj is the example used, as all aspects are present.
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Past that I still can't think of any fights where there's any real multiple-target DPS.
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Originally Posted by Gaise
I believe he is referring to the uptime of the actual debuff itself, rather than the assumed power of 100% uptime.
Dry streaks on crits, other debuffs knocking Blood Frenzy off the list, whatever the reason, for the most part, you can't assume that Blood Frenzy has a 100% uptime and therefore affects all physical damage for every second of the fight/raid. |
Last edited by Kiranat : 10/11/07 at 12:22 PM.
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Originally Posted by Kiranat
The chance of not critting for 12 seconds is pretty slim, and the debuff can be reapplied with Rend (lol) in a pinch.
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Originally Posted by Kiranat
What I gathered from your post is that you don't believe BF is viable because of X number of circumstances that need to be met, I was simply trying to point out that (with the exception of P2 Vashj) it's a moot point.
I still don't see your point here.... In fact when your BF warrior is rooted he's effectively doing more damage than anyone else who is rooted since BF still affects hunters and any melee who aren't rooted. If you're toyed the same applies, and if you're MCed it still applies. Past that I still can't think of any fights where there's any real multiple-target DPS. |
Breaking it down:
Boss is at 100%. Let's say 8 physical dps present, doing a total of 8000dps. In lieu of a fury warrior, the raid brings a BF debuffer. An additional 320dps is provided.
Boss is at 20%. There are only 4 physical dps present (BF is one of them), doing a total of 4000dps. The worth of your debuff is now 160dps.
As your number of physical dps declines, be it to deaths, being cc'ed, split, or in transit to/from the target with the debuff, so does the overall worth of BF. Crunch time isn't when things are at the start of a fight or when everything is going smooth, crunch time is when you're down to the wire, and you need to do everything you can with what you've got.
For you to bring a raw dpser, such as fury, in lieu of your BF debuffer, they will need to make up the difference that BF would otherwise generate. We'll say that for an equally geared, equally played, equally group stacked choice, fury will put out 200dps more than your arms guy (this number is arbitrary, but I hope no one tries to argue fury dps > arms dps, especially following the WF totem nerf).
Boss is at 100%. 8 physical dps, doing a total of 8200dps.
Boss is at 20%. 4 physical dps (fury is one of them), doing a total of 4300dps.
DPS is needed at the end of the fight when things have hit the fan. Consistancy is the main ingredient to success, both the microcasm of this BF debate, as well as the macrocasm of guild leadership. If I was making up a raid, I'm going to bring players and group makeup that yield consistant results.
The numbers chosen are arbitrary to make the point. I'm saying bringing a BF debuffer is nice, but in the end what is most important is someone in that melee dps slot that is:
1. consistant in their dps contribution (from start to finish of a fight), not the buffs/debuffs they provide
2. significant in what they contribute via dps (an obvious no-brainer)
Edit: To my knowledge, nowhere did I mention anything about the buff not being active? 'Apply rend in a pinch lol' is cute however.
Edited onPatch 2.2.3
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Originally Posted by Mjollnir
Almost. From the Vashj encounter I draw my examples, but they can be applied to any fight.
Breaking it down: Boss is at 100%. Let's say 8 physical dps present, doing a total of 8000dps. In lieu of a fury warrior, the raid brings a BF debuffer. An additional 320dps is provided. Boss is at 20%. There are only 4 physical dps present (BF is one of them), doing a total of 4000dps. The worth of your debuff is now 160dps. As your number of physical dps declines, be it to deaths, being cc'ed, split, or in transit to/from the target with the debuff, so does the overall worth of BF. Crunch time isn't when things are at the start of a fight or when everything is going smooth, crunch time is when you're down to the wire, and you need to do everything you can with what you've got. For you to bring a raw dpser, such as fury, in lieu of your BF debuffer, they will need to make up the difference that BF would otherwise generate. We'll say that for an equally geared, equally played, equally group stacked choice, fury will put out 200dps more than your arms guy (this number is arbitrary, but I hope no one tries to argue fury dps > arms dps, especially following the WF totem nerf). Boss is at 100%. 8 physical dps, doing a total of 8200dps. Boss is at 20%. 4 physical dps (fury is one of them), doing a total of 4300dps. DPS is needed at the end of the fight when things have hit the fan. Consistancy is the main ingredient to success, both the microcasm of this BF debate, as well as the macrocasm of guild leadership. If I was making up a raid, I'm going to bring players and group makeup that yield consistant results. The numbers chosen are arbitrary to make the point. I'm saying bringing a BF debuffer is nice, but in the end what is most important is someone in that melee dps slot that is: 1. consistant in their dps contribution (from start to finish of a fight), not the buffs/debuffs they provide 2. significant in what they contribute via dps (an obvious no-brainer) Edit: To my knowledge, nowhere did I mention anything about the buff not being active? 'Apply rend in a pinch lol' is cute however. |
I'm consistently top 5 on meters in my guild, generally only 50-60 DPS behind our fury warrior (depends alot on the fight though). Yes, BF is better with more people alive, at the same time on the note of consistency there are only two fights where "random" deaths should ever be an issue. Gorefiend being a huge one, and having god-awful luck on Vashj being the other.
The numbers in your examples are a touch off as well, from example 1 to 2 the raid loses 120 DPS :P You need to keep in mind that BF scales very, very well. When we were first going into BT BF was giving us ~200-225 DPS increase as our melee DPS averaged about 1000-1400 per person, currently our lowest melee DPSer (feral druid) is doing about 1200 DPS, me at 1525, fury at ~1600, and rogues varying between 1700-1900 depending on gear, so it is now netting almost 500 DPS. This is using Gorefiend as an example, as there are really no threat limitations.
The downtime was in reference to a different post, and no, I have never once had Rend on my hotbar since about level 8 :P
Last edited by Kiranat : 10/11/07 at 12:49 PM.
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Originally Posted by Kiranat
The thing with this argument is that it's the exact same deal with a feral druid or enh shaman for use in a DPS group. Their DPS on their own is quite lackluster, but their buffs (moreso with the shaman) are what sell them.
I'm consistently top 5 on meters in my guild, generally only 50-60 DPS behind our fury warrior (depends alot on the fight though). Yes, BF is better with more people alive, at the same time on the note of consistency there are only two fights where "random" deaths should ever be an issue. Gorefiend being a huge one, and having god-awful luck on Vashj being the other. The downtime was in reference to a different post, and no, I have never once had Rend on my hotbar since about level 8 :P |
50-60dps tells me you either out-gear him, out-experience him, out-consumable him... or are just plain better than him.
I do, for the defensive stance hotbar, but don't ask me how or why. >< (I do apologize for misreading the first time, your response was indeed to a different poster.)
Edited onPatch 2.2.3
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Originally Posted by Mjollnir
I don't know what enh sham you run with, but ours puts out about 90% of our rogues' dps. This solidifies my point. I would rather bring a high dpser than a mediocre who is going to boost 4 others.
50-60dps tells me you either out-gear him, out-experience him, out-consumable him... or are just plain better than him. I do, for the defensive stance hotbar, but don't ask me how or why. >< (I do apologize for misreading the first time, your response was indeed to a different poster.) |
Zaidel (Enh Shaman) does about 1350 DPS, this could be another 50 or so higher, but he does some totem twisting which eats up GCDs.
Shaitain (our best Rogue) does roughly 1850 DPS.
There have been some posts in the past with people not being able to figure out our fury warrior's damage, and I really can't tell you. We've both done the same content, have the same "tier" of gear, and use the same pots/flasks/food. I have never had the chance to play with any other fury warriors of equivalent gear so I can't really tell you.
My roommate is in your guild - unless you have any objection I'd like to take a look over your guild's damage meters and raid makeup so I can get a better idea of the comparisons between our makeups
We already have Gorefiend down for the week - I'll do my best to remember to WWS it (or Winterchill/Anetheron) when we do them.
Last edited by Kiranat : 10/11/07 at 1:05 PM.
I have seen a couple of things on Gorefiend that might account for DPS oddness.
Gorefiend loves to kick the shit out of WF totems. They need to be redropped a lot.
Also one time my DPS was just terrible on him and I could not figure out why at first glance. I went back and looked at the WWS more, and me and one of the Rogues (whose DPS was also way below average) were getting parried like crazy, as if we were attacking from his front, which we definitely were not. I have seen subsequent parses where he has parried me multiple times as well, its like when he casts shadow of death or incinerate on folks, he is actually turning to face them or something. I mean I see him do that visually on my client but I figured he was not really supposed to be facing them for melee purposes.
Gorefiend loves to kick the shit out of WF totems. They need to be redropped a lot.
Also one time my DPS was just terrible on him and I could not figure out why at first glance. I went back and looked at the WWS more, and me and one of the Rogues (whose DPS was also way below average) were getting parried like crazy, as if we were attacking from his front, which we definitely were not. I have seen subsequent parses where he has parried me multiple times as well, its like when he casts shadow of death or incinerate on folks, he is actually turning to face them or something. I mean I see him do that visually on my client but I figured he was not really supposed to be facing them for melee purposes.
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Originally Posted by Kiranat
Again - Gorefiend as an example:
Zaidel (Enh Shaman) does about 1350 DPS, this could be another 50 or so higher, but he does some totem twisting which eats up GCDs. Shaitain (our best Rogue) does roughly 1850 DPS. There have been some posts in the past with people not being able to figure out our fury warrior's damage, and I really can't tell you. We've both done the same content, have the same "tier" of gear, and use the same pots/flasks/food. I have never had the chance to play with any other fury warriors of equivalent gear so I can't really tell you. My roommate is in your guild - unless you have any objection I'd like to take a look over your guild's damage meters and raid makeup so I can get a better idea of the comparisons between our makeups We already have Gorefiend down for the week - I'll do my best to remember to WWS it (or Winterchill/Anetheron) when we do them. |
I've no objection- but you'll fail to find any solid comparisons in BB. I am rarely pure dps (fury) spec, and even rarer that I'm placed with the enh sham now that an inactive MSer has returned. I'm usually placed in the leftover group as I am brought to OT stuff and dps when not needed to tank (a pity, but there is only so much room for melee dps slots).
Edit: Who is this scoundrel you claim as roommate?
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Originally Posted by Mjollnir
In a fight like Patchwerk, or Lurker, yes, I can see bringing an MS-specced BF debuffer. But when you incorporate multiple targets, movement, and/or disabled dps (remote toy, roots, mind control etc), you quickly devalue its worth. Vashj is the example used, as all aspects are present.
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Assuming ~100% warrior uptime (Which is possible in most fights, we have an easier time getting back to a target compared to rogues and enh shamans) the contribution from blood frenzy is around Physical damage x.0385. if you don't have a BF warrior then the contribution would be Physical dps +4%. If you want to figure out if BF is worth it, just apply those numbers to your parses; BF falling off isn't something that happens with any frequency at all, given that deep wounds lasts 12 seconds
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Originally Posted by Eledorian
I ran with the Thundering Skyfire Diamond myself for a while (pre-2.2 mostly). I'll agree that it's a nice meta gem but I think over time Relentless Earthstorm will end up giving a bigger damage increase then Thundering Skyfire. It increases your crit by 0.36% and it increases the damage from crits by 3% (206% for white crits/226% for special crits).
I'd like to see where you got the 1.6 PPM from on the Thundering Skyfire diamond though, since when I ran with it it didn't proc that much (though it was fun seeing my 2.6 MH drop to ~1.0ish with meta haste trinket and 30% flurry). |
Has anyone else had victory rush light up on Naj'entus? It only happened this previous week, and both myself, and our MS warrior both had it light up for us.
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Originally Posted by Fogbug
But Vashj is an exception. The hardest T5 fights (Vashj and Kael) aren't as good for BF, but BF can still contribute a lot to them, and it shines on pretty much every T6 fight
... Council is a multi target fight |
Council is a multi target fight, however (at least the way we do it) all of the melee is attacking Gathios anyway.
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Originally Posted by Quixotic
Has anyone else had victory rush light up on Naj'entus? It only happened this previous week, and both myself, and our MS warrior both had it light up for us.
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I got MCed on our KT kill last night 4 or 5 times. During which, I killed a felguard, a rogue, and almost downed a couple others. Clothies make for big crits. I think it healthily contributed to me being a solid #2 on phase 4/5 damage. Killing the rogue and felguard both procced VR. Their pain feeds my dps and I'm ok with that.
Almost all(All?) of those have been confirmed as new heroic badge loot. Most of them are pretty meh also, even fury doesn't want that much hit rating.
I think the only time I'd ever use SS as fury would be on hyjal trash.
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Originally Posted by Heaton
I think the only time I'd ever use SS as fury would be on hyjal trash.
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i dunno if i dare doing that tbh. i can imagine the tanks having problems holding aggro on certain mobs (pack of abominations for instance?). and when a few of them starts punching you in the face... let's just say healers need to overheal a bit.
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Originally Posted by Emeraude
Some of the Itemization from the new Heroic Badges
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I would much rather see items with crit on it. Those items seem like they are great for the guy that really doesn't realise hit isnt important after like 9%.
I have also seen some math that is saying with the right offhand, this is in fact a buff with the introduction of the double hitting WW. But untill you have good enough gear, its a nerf.
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Originally Posted by luke2kz71
I have also seen some math that is saying with the right offhand, this is in fact a buff with the introduction of the double hitting WW. But untill you have good enough gear, its a nerf.
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Originally Posted by Korlong
Edit again: HOLY HELL! I thought people were kidding about the Deathwish change on the warrior forums! That's not cool!
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With the expertise skill, would it be interesting to get Defiance in the protection tree, with Weapon mastery moved to the Fury tree ? That would give 10 (6+4) experise skill, reducing dodge's target to 2.5% (instead of 5%)
I've spent the last week in Hyjal learning bosses that are fairly new to us. We're on #4 now but have switched over to BT for some early boss work. In SSC/TK on trash, I rarely get to cleave/ww. There are CCed mobs all over. I BT and HS. I use DW here and there. I do very well on trash dps. The only time I would cleave/ww or, post patch, SS, is on packs of un-CCable mobs (SSC pack 1, etc). On those packs, I'm in tank gear half the time because who carries 5/6 to farm content when bosses don't take that many tanks.
In Hijal, it's worse. Worse being subjective. I don't mind tanking. I'm in tank gear for 100% of the trash. Trash control for AOE dps is vital. So, the only time I'm in DPS gear is on the boss. I would never use SS.
For the bosses, then, they are 3-4 minute DPS zergs. I use deathwish twice on them meaning deathwish is up more than 25% of the time. The first time is just death wish. The second deathwish comes with execute/reckless/heroism. It would be tough to quantify the numbers but I would guess deathwish provides a ~7% dps increase, nearly twice what you would anticipate. SS provides a whopping 0% boss dps. The WW change should take my 5% WW and up it to 8%. So 7% loss for 3% gain.
In Hijal, it's worse. Worse being subjective. I don't mind tanking. I'm in tank gear for 100% of the trash. Trash control for AOE dps is vital. So, the only time I'm in DPS gear is on the boss. I would never use SS.
For the bosses, then, they are 3-4 minute DPS zergs. I use deathwish twice on them meaning deathwish is up more than 25% of the time. The first time is just death wish. The second deathwish comes with execute/reckless/heroism. It would be tough to quantify the numbers but I would guess deathwish provides a ~7% dps increase, nearly twice what you would anticipate. SS provides a whopping 0% boss dps. The WW change should take my 5% WW and up it to 8%. So 7% loss for 3% gain.
The Deathwish for Sweeping Strikes swap is a really, really bad deal for Fury. I mean, a terrible deal. Fire the GM that made that trade IMO!
Its clear they are trying to make Endless Rage more appealing, and they have...but this is very typical of them trying to fix something and then completely ignoring the unintended consequences. I understand its Test and the point is...to test. However, I feel like this is a change that anyone with any experience as a Warrior would have jumped on immediately.
If they are looking to swap a talent for Sweeping Strikes, it should be Enrage. Enrage is all about PVP and right now it next to useless where its at in Fury. Its only real effect is to make Flurry a 10 point talent instead of a 5 point talent.
Its clear they are trying to make Endless Rage more appealing, and they have...but this is very typical of them trying to fix something and then completely ignoring the unintended consequences. I understand its Test and the point is...to test. However, I feel like this is a change that anyone with any experience as a Warrior would have jumped on immediately.
If they are looking to swap a talent for Sweeping Strikes, it should be Enrage. Enrage is all about PVP and right now it next to useless where its at in Fury. Its only real effect is to make Flurry a 10 point talent instead of a 5 point talent.
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Originally Posted by Ondskapt
With the expertise skill, would it be interesting to get Defiance in the protection tree, with Weapon mastery moved to the Fury tree ? That would give 10 (6+4) experise skill, reducing dodge's target to 2.5% (instead of 5%)
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Originally Posted by Hozz
Its clear they are trying to make Endless Rage more appealing, and they have...
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Pardon me if this has already been asked. I tried to use the search option and looked through a couple of pages of this thread with no luck (60 pages is a lot to go through!).
With all these armor reduction gear added in 2.3, i'm wondering how an armor set consisting of full armor reduction gear would do? I'm thinking that most slots will use BT/Hyjal stuff, and the rest will be filled in with ZA/Heroic Badges (there are a lot of items that have AR from the badges that don't drop in the T6 instances).
Basically, how would you rank AR when you can stack it to absurb amounts?
With all these armor reduction gear added in 2.3, i'm wondering how an armor set consisting of full armor reduction gear would do? I'm thinking that most slots will use BT/Hyjal stuff, and the rest will be filled in with ZA/Heroic Badges (there are a lot of items that have AR from the badges that don't drop in the T6 instances).
Basically, how would you rank AR when you can stack it to absurb amounts?
Edited onPatch 2.2.3
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Originally Posted by Healranktwo
Basically, how would you rank AR when you can stack it to absurb amounts?
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edit- more information can be found in this nifty thread
After reading it a bit the consensus seems to be that in regards to armor penetration: more is better.
Last edited by LodeRunner : 10/12/07 at 4:40 PM.
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Originally Posted by Hozz
Its clear they are trying to make Endless Rage more appealing, and they have...
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Improved slam is also vital PvE-wise. In the end I just don't need 25% more rage
Edited onPatch 2.2.3
I rate armor penetration as roughly 1% damage increase per 150 armor penetration. Sometimes it's more, sometimes it's less, but with the numbers I was playing with, it seemed like a fair comparison.
It seems to me that DW is the skill that everyone wants and SS is the skill that nobody cares about. Give both trees DW and delete SS from the game.
The long and short is that improved disciplines, imp MS, and ER are crappy talents. Stealing from the Fury tree does not make them better talents. In essence, PVP warriors get more options and Fury warriors get less. I will accept the DW/SS switch if and only if they swap BF and Imp Slam. As it were, while carrying 5 points in enrage for no reason, I can't spec a decent fury build for DW with BF and still hold impale. Are they going to make SS a prereq on BT? The two skills don't even relate. I had stated in another thread or earlier in this thread that I would rather not have warriors revamped as everytime Bliz touches your class you have a 50/50 chance of coming out worse. And here you go. To be honest, if they axed the DW/SS swap and put some effort into filling out the arms tree with decent deep talents, I'd be happy with the other changes. The prot changes, threat reduction, and Weapon Mastery/Imp Intercept changes were all between fine and great.
It seems to me that DW is the skill that everyone wants and SS is the skill that nobody cares about. Give both trees DW and delete SS from the game.
The long and short is that improved disciplines, imp MS, and ER are crappy talents. Stealing from the Fury tree does not make them better talents. In essence, PVP warriors get more options and Fury warriors get less. I will accept the DW/SS switch if and only if they swap BF and Imp Slam. As it were, while carrying 5 points in enrage for no reason, I can't spec a decent fury build for DW with BF and still hold impale. Are they going to make SS a prereq on BT? The two skills don't even relate. I had stated in another thread or earlier in this thread that I would rather not have warriors revamped as everytime Bliz touches your class you have a 50/50 chance of coming out worse. And here you go. To be honest, if they axed the DW/SS swap and put some effort into filling out the arms tree with decent deep talents, I'd be happy with the other changes. The prot changes, threat reduction, and Weapon Mastery/Imp Intercept changes were all between fine and great.
Last edited by Grymm : 10/12/07 at 5:11 PM.
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Originally Posted by Fogbug
They really haven't, though. Flurry is still much more important to me than endless rage, especially since 3/5 flurry is pretty much 60% of the endless rage effect while also bumping my white damage way up
Improved slam is also vital PvE-wise. In the end I just don't need 25% more rage |
But, why else would they move Deathwish to Arms if not to trry and make ER more appealing? Are they trying to nerf Fury DPS? Maybe but then, why give it 10% threat reduction?
They need to move Enrage into Arms and put Deathwish back where it belongs. IMO.
Sweeping strikes in the Fury tree doesn't even make sense to begin with. Will SS be changed to be usable only in Berserker instead of Battle stance?
Improved intercept in the Arms tree?
I guess I had just assumed that
Arms = Buffs Battle Stance abilities
Fury = Buffs Berserker Stance abilities
Protection = Buffs Defensive stance abilities.
I mean...if Improved Intercept is in the Arms tree, shouldn't Intercept be changed in the spellbook to Arms?
It makes no sense. lollore.
Improved intercept in the Arms tree?
I guess I had just assumed that
Arms = Buffs Battle Stance abilities
Fury = Buffs Berserker Stance abilities
Protection = Buffs Defensive stance abilities.
I mean...if Improved Intercept is in the Arms tree, shouldn't Intercept be changed in the spellbook to Arms?
It makes no sense. lollore.
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Originally Posted by Fogbug
They really haven't, though. Flurry is still much more important to me than endless rage, especially since 3/5 flurry is pretty much 60% of the endless rage effect while also bumping my white damage way up
Improved slam is also vital PvE-wise. In the end I just don't need 25% more rage |
Is my math off when I think that Deathwish (optimally used) will increase your dps by around 3-4%?
Now, the question is will we gain more than 3-4% from the new whirlwind? What about skilling 2/2 imp. WW? That might improve our dps significantly. Also: 10% less threat will mean more dps.
So are we looking at a nerf or at a buff? And how many worthwile uses for SS are there in a raid environment? (Right now I can only think of Kael'thas, Hyjal-Trash, maybe Akama ...)
Leaving out Rampage to get DW is not an option I reckon ...
Now, the question is will we gain more than 3-4% from the new whirlwind? What about skilling 2/2 imp. WW? That might improve our dps significantly. Also: 10% less threat will mean more dps.
So are we looking at a nerf or at a buff? And how many worthwile uses for SS are there in a raid environment? (Right now I can only think of Kael'thas, Hyjal-Trash, maybe Akama ...)
Leaving out Rampage to get DW is not an option I reckon ...
Edited onPatch 2.2.3
It's not about how much of a dps buff Death Wish is, it's about when it is a dps buff. Being immune to fear is nice too.
I dont see 33/28 changing all that much, i'll simply skip Sweeping Strikes. I really am rather ticked off about what it does to my Fury spec, though.
I dont see 33/28 changing all that much, i'll simply skip Sweeping Strikes. I really am rather ticked off about what it does to my Fury spec, though.
Last edited by Charsi : 10/12/07 at 11:08 PM.
Edited onPatch 2.2.3
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Originally Posted by Chirality
Sweeping strikes in the Fury tree doesn't even make sense to begin with. Will SS be changed to be usable only in Berserker instead of Battle stance?
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WoW Forums -> Sweeping strikes change
Last edited by Colan : 10/12/07 at 11:46 PM.
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Originally Posted by Colan
I believe they're changing it so that Sweeping strikes can be used in berserker stance as well as battle.
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What are your plans to cope with the new Disarm change? With hunters getting a 10 second "Disarm Shot" and the dead zone being eliminated (along with Riposte, Disarm, etc.), it seems like it might be time to dust off the old weapon chain.
The DW/SS swap is not a wonderful change no matter how you look at it. Losing rampage to get death wish or vice versa is a nerf to single target boss dps. If you can cleave and sweeping strikes trash, great. Who gives a shit about trash dps.
Edited onPatch 2.2.3
What really needs to happen is that Death Wish needs to be made a base ability. Sweeping strikes can go back to arms, make up something stupid and relatively useless for 21 pt fury, doesn't really matter. The point is, DW is too good for any warrior doing DPS to not get. And paladins get AW from the trainer, so it's not without precedent.
The other thing that needs to happen is that Enrage needs to either be swapped in spots with Dual Wield Spec, or moved to arms. Slam should probably also migrate over to arms, but I'm not sure what you'd swap it with.
Edit: The more I think about this, the more it makes sense. Similar to how druids were with Innervate, and Mages were with IAE, if you want to do damage as a warrior, pve or pvp or whatever, you NEED Death Wish. It either needs to go to the 11 point spot occupied by PH or by AM, or it needs to be put on the trainer. Putting it on the trainer would have the added benefit of improving prot DPS when not tanking, something that pretty clearly needs to happen anyway.
The other thing that needs to happen is that Enrage needs to either be swapped in spots with Dual Wield Spec, or moved to arms. Slam should probably also migrate over to arms, but I'm not sure what you'd swap it with.
Edit: The more I think about this, the more it makes sense. Similar to how druids were with Innervate, and Mages were with IAE, if you want to do damage as a warrior, pve or pvp or whatever, you NEED Death Wish. It either needs to go to the 11 point spot occupied by PH or by AM, or it needs to be put on the trainer. Putting it on the trainer would have the added benefit of improving prot DPS when not tanking, something that pretty clearly needs to happen anyway.
Last edited by Davia : 10/13/07 at 2:30 AM.
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Originally Posted by Chirality
My understanding was that, due to Rage Normalization taking weapon speed into account, Flurry did not actually increase your rage generation.
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Originally Posted by Davia
Putting it on the trainer would have the added benefit of improving prot DPS when not tanking, something that pretty clearly needs to happen anyway.
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Originally Posted by Davia
make up something stupid and relatively useless for 21 pt fury
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Almost all(All?) of those have been confirmed as new heroic badge loot. Most of them are pretty meh also, even fury doesn't want that much hit rating.
I think the only time I'd ever use SS as fury would be on hyjal trash.
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Originally Posted by Heaton
I think the only time I'd ever use SS as fury would be on hyjal trash.
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i dunno if i dare doing that tbh. i can imagine the tanks having problems holding aggro on certain mobs (pack of abominations for instance?). and when a few of them starts punching you in the face... let's just say healers need to overheal a bit.
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Originally Posted by Emeraude
Some of the Itemization from the new Heroic Badges
..... |
I would much rather see items with crit on it. Those items seem like they are great for the guy that really doesn't realise hit isnt important after like 9%.
I have also seen some math that is saying with the right offhand, this is in fact a buff with the introduction of the double hitting WW. But untill you have good enough gear, its a nerf.
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Originally Posted by luke2kz71
I have also seen some math that is saying with the right offhand, this is in fact a buff with the introduction of the double hitting WW. But untill you have good enough gear, its a nerf.
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Originally Posted by Korlong
Edit again: HOLY HELL! I thought people were kidding about the Deathwish change on the warrior forums! That's not cool!
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With the expertise skill, would it be interesting to get Defiance in the protection tree, with Weapon mastery moved to the Fury tree ? That would give 10 (6+4) experise skill, reducing dodge's target to 2.5% (instead of 5%)
I've spent the last week in Hyjal learning bosses that are fairly new to us. We're on #4 now but have switched over to BT for some early boss work. In SSC/TK on trash, I rarely get to cleave/ww. There are CCed mobs all over. I BT and HS. I use DW here and there. I do very well on trash dps. The only time I would cleave/ww or, post patch, SS, is on packs of un-CCable mobs (SSC pack 1, etc). On those packs, I'm in tank gear half the time because who carries 5/6 to farm content when bosses don't take that many tanks.
In Hijal, it's worse. Worse being subjective. I don't mind tanking. I'm in tank gear for 100% of the trash. Trash control for AOE dps is vital. So, the only time I'm in DPS gear is on the boss. I would never use SS.
For the bosses, then, they are 3-4 minute DPS zergs. I use deathwish twice on them meaning deathwish is up more than 25% of the time. The first time is just death wish. The second deathwish comes with execute/reckless/heroism. It would be tough to quantify the numbers but I would guess deathwish provides a ~7% dps increase, nearly twice what you would anticipate. SS provides a whopping 0% boss dps. The WW change should take my 5% WW and up it to 8%. So 7% loss for 3% gain.
In Hijal, it's worse. Worse being subjective. I don't mind tanking. I'm in tank gear for 100% of the trash. Trash control for AOE dps is vital. So, the only time I'm in DPS gear is on the boss. I would never use SS.
For the bosses, then, they are 3-4 minute DPS zergs. I use deathwish twice on them meaning deathwish is up more than 25% of the time. The first time is just death wish. The second deathwish comes with execute/reckless/heroism. It would be tough to quantify the numbers but I would guess deathwish provides a ~7% dps increase, nearly twice what you would anticipate. SS provides a whopping 0% boss dps. The WW change should take my 5% WW and up it to 8%. So 7% loss for 3% gain.
The Deathwish for Sweeping Strikes swap is a really, really bad deal for Fury. I mean, a terrible deal. Fire the GM that made that trade IMO!
Its clear they are trying to make Endless Rage more appealing, and they have...but this is very typical of them trying to fix something and then completely ignoring the unintended consequences. I understand its Test and the point is...to test. However, I feel like this is a change that anyone with any experience as a Warrior would have jumped on immediately.
If they are looking to swap a talent for Sweeping Strikes, it should be Enrage. Enrage is all about PVP and right now it next to useless where its at in Fury. Its only real effect is to make Flurry a 10 point talent instead of a 5 point talent.
Its clear they are trying to make Endless Rage more appealing, and they have...but this is very typical of them trying to fix something and then completely ignoring the unintended consequences. I understand its Test and the point is...to test. However, I feel like this is a change that anyone with any experience as a Warrior would have jumped on immediately.
If they are looking to swap a talent for Sweeping Strikes, it should be Enrage. Enrage is all about PVP and right now it next to useless where its at in Fury. Its only real effect is to make Flurry a 10 point talent instead of a 5 point talent.
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Originally Posted by Ondskapt
With the expertise skill, would it be interesting to get Defiance in the protection tree, with Weapon mastery moved to the Fury tree ? That would give 10 (6+4) experise skill, reducing dodge's target to 2.5% (instead of 5%)
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Originally Posted by Hozz
Its clear they are trying to make Endless Rage more appealing, and they have...
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Pardon me if this has already been asked. I tried to use the search option and looked through a couple of pages of this thread with no luck (60 pages is a lot to go through!).
With all these armor reduction gear added in 2.3, i'm wondering how an armor set consisting of full armor reduction gear would do? I'm thinking that most slots will use BT/Hyjal stuff, and the rest will be filled in with ZA/Heroic Badges (there are a lot of items that have AR from the badges that don't drop in the T6 instances).
Basically, how would you rank AR when you can stack it to absurb amounts?
With all these armor reduction gear added in 2.3, i'm wondering how an armor set consisting of full armor reduction gear would do? I'm thinking that most slots will use BT/Hyjal stuff, and the rest will be filled in with ZA/Heroic Badges (there are a lot of items that have AR from the badges that don't drop in the T6 instances).
Basically, how would you rank AR when you can stack it to absurb amounts?
Edited onPatch 2.2.3
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Originally Posted by Healranktwo
Basically, how would you rank AR when you can stack it to absurb amounts?
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edit- more information can be found in this nifty thread
After reading it a bit the consensus seems to be that in regards to armor penetration: more is better.
Last edited by LodeRunner : 10/12/07 at 4:40 PM.
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Originally Posted by Hozz
Its clear they are trying to make Endless Rage more appealing, and they have...
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Improved slam is also vital PvE-wise. In the end I just don't need 25% more rage
Edited onPatch 2.2.3
I rate armor penetration as roughly 1% damage increase per 150 armor penetration. Sometimes it's more, sometimes it's less, but with the numbers I was playing with, it seemed like a fair comparison.
It seems to me that DW is the skill that everyone wants and SS is the skill that nobody cares about. Give both trees DW and delete SS from the game.
The long and short is that improved disciplines, imp MS, and ER are crappy talents. Stealing from the Fury tree does not make them better talents. In essence, PVP warriors get more options and Fury warriors get less. I will accept the DW/SS switch if and only if they swap BF and Imp Slam. As it were, while carrying 5 points in enrage for no reason, I can't spec a decent fury build for DW with BF and still hold impale. Are they going to make SS a prereq on BT? The two skills don't even relate. I had stated in another thread or earlier in this thread that I would rather not have warriors revamped as everytime Bliz touches your class you have a 50/50 chance of coming out worse. And here you go. To be honest, if they axed the DW/SS swap and put some effort into filling out the arms tree with decent deep talents, I'd be happy with the other changes. The prot changes, threat reduction, and Weapon Mastery/Imp Intercept changes were all between fine and great.
It seems to me that DW is the skill that everyone wants and SS is the skill that nobody cares about. Give both trees DW and delete SS from the game.
The long and short is that improved disciplines, imp MS, and ER are crappy talents. Stealing from the Fury tree does not make them better talents. In essence, PVP warriors get more options and Fury warriors get less. I will accept the DW/SS switch if and only if they swap BF and Imp Slam. As it were, while carrying 5 points in enrage for no reason, I can't spec a decent fury build for DW with BF and still hold impale. Are they going to make SS a prereq on BT? The two skills don't even relate. I had stated in another thread or earlier in this thread that I would rather not have warriors revamped as everytime Bliz touches your class you have a 50/50 chance of coming out worse. And here you go. To be honest, if they axed the DW/SS swap and put some effort into filling out the arms tree with decent deep talents, I'd be happy with the other changes. The prot changes, threat reduction, and Weapon Mastery/Imp Intercept changes were all between fine and great.
Last edited by Grymm : 10/12/07 at 5:11 PM.
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Originally Posted by Fogbug
They really haven't, though. Flurry is still much more important to me than endless rage, especially since 3/5 flurry is pretty much 60% of the endless rage effect while also bumping my white damage way up
Improved slam is also vital PvE-wise. In the end I just don't need 25% more rage |
But, why else would they move Deathwish to Arms if not to trry and make ER more appealing? Are they trying to nerf Fury DPS? Maybe but then, why give it 10% threat reduction?
They need to move Enrage into Arms and put Deathwish back where it belongs. IMO.
Sweeping strikes in the Fury tree doesn't even make sense to begin with. Will SS be changed to be usable only in Berserker instead of Battle stance?
Improved intercept in the Arms tree?
I guess I had just assumed that
Arms = Buffs Battle Stance abilities
Fury = Buffs Berserker Stance abilities
Protection = Buffs Defensive stance abilities.
I mean...if Improved Intercept is in the Arms tree, shouldn't Intercept be changed in the spellbook to Arms?
It makes no sense. lollore.
Improved intercept in the Arms tree?
I guess I had just assumed that
Arms = Buffs Battle Stance abilities
Fury = Buffs Berserker Stance abilities
Protection = Buffs Defensive stance abilities.
I mean...if Improved Intercept is in the Arms tree, shouldn't Intercept be changed in the spellbook to Arms?
It makes no sense. lollore.
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Originally Posted by Fogbug
They really haven't, though. Flurry is still much more important to me than endless rage, especially since 3/5 flurry is pretty much 60% of the endless rage effect while also bumping my white damage way up
Improved slam is also vital PvE-wise. In the end I just don't need 25% more rage |
Is my math off when I think that Deathwish (optimally used) will increase your dps by around 3-4%?
Now, the question is will we gain more than 3-4% from the new whirlwind? What about skilling 2/2 imp. WW? That might improve our dps significantly. Also: 10% less threat will mean more dps.
So are we looking at a nerf or at a buff? And how many worthwile uses for SS are there in a raid environment? (Right now I can only think of Kael'thas, Hyjal-Trash, maybe Akama ...)
Leaving out Rampage to get DW is not an option I reckon ...
Now, the question is will we gain more than 3-4% from the new whirlwind? What about skilling 2/2 imp. WW? That might improve our dps significantly. Also: 10% less threat will mean more dps.
So are we looking at a nerf or at a buff? And how many worthwile uses for SS are there in a raid environment? (Right now I can only think of Kael'thas, Hyjal-Trash, maybe Akama ...)
Leaving out Rampage to get DW is not an option I reckon ...
Edited onPatch 2.2.3
It's not about how much of a dps buff Death Wish is, it's about when it is a dps buff. Being immune to fear is nice too.
I dont see 33/28 changing all that much, i'll simply skip Sweeping Strikes. I really am rather ticked off about what it does to my Fury spec, though.
I dont see 33/28 changing all that much, i'll simply skip Sweeping Strikes. I really am rather ticked off about what it does to my Fury spec, though.
Last edited by Charsi : 10/12/07 at 11:08 PM.
Edited onPatch 2.2.3
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Originally Posted by Chirality
Sweeping strikes in the Fury tree doesn't even make sense to begin with. Will SS be changed to be usable only in Berserker instead of Battle stance?
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WoW Forums -> Sweeping strikes change
Last edited by Colan : 10/12/07 at 11:46 PM.
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Originally Posted by Colan
I believe they're changing it so that Sweeping strikes can be used in berserker stance as well as battle.
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What are your plans to cope with the new Disarm change? With hunters getting a 10 second "Disarm Shot" and the dead zone being eliminated (along with Riposte, Disarm, etc.), it seems like it might be time to dust off the old weapon chain.
The DW/SS swap is not a wonderful change no matter how you look at it. Losing rampage to get death wish or vice versa is a nerf to single target boss dps. If you can cleave and sweeping strikes trash, great. Who gives a shit about trash dps.
Edited onPatch 2.2.3
What really needs to happen is that Death Wish needs to be made a base ability. Sweeping strikes can go back to arms, make up something stupid and relatively useless for 21 pt fury, doesn't really matter. The point is, DW is too good for any warrior doing DPS to not get. And paladins get AW from the trainer, so it's not without precedent.
The other thing that needs to happen is that Enrage needs to either be swapped in spots with Dual Wield Spec, or moved to arms. Slam should probably also migrate over to arms, but I'm not sure what you'd swap it with.
Edit: The more I think about this, the more it makes sense. Similar to how druids were with Innervate, and Mages were with IAE, if you want to do damage as a warrior, pve or pvp or whatever, you NEED Death Wish. It either needs to go to the 11 point spot occupied by PH or by AM, or it needs to be put on the trainer. Putting it on the trainer would have the added benefit of improving prot DPS when not tanking, something that pretty clearly needs to happen anyway.
The other thing that needs to happen is that Enrage needs to either be swapped in spots with Dual Wield Spec, or moved to arms. Slam should probably also migrate over to arms, but I'm not sure what you'd swap it with.
Edit: The more I think about this, the more it makes sense. Similar to how druids were with Innervate, and Mages were with IAE, if you want to do damage as a warrior, pve or pvp or whatever, you NEED Death Wish. It either needs to go to the 11 point spot occupied by PH or by AM, or it needs to be put on the trainer. Putting it on the trainer would have the added benefit of improving prot DPS when not tanking, something that pretty clearly needs to happen anyway.
Last edited by Davia : 10/13/07 at 2:30 AM.
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Originally Posted by Chirality
My understanding was that, due to Rage Normalization taking weapon speed into account, Flurry did not actually increase your rage generation.
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Originally Posted by Davia
Putting it on the trainer would have the added benefit of improving prot DPS when not tanking, something that pretty clearly needs to happen anyway.
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Originally Posted by Davia
make up something stupid and relatively useless for 21 pt fury
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Originally Posted by Bronwyn
Is my math off when I think that Deathwish (optimally used) will increase your dps by around 3-4%?
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| Now, the question is will we gain more than 3-4% from the new whirlwind? What about skilling 2/2 imp. WW? That might improve our dps significantly. |
However, with good enough gear (weapons + ap) it may begin to outscale execute like bloodthirst does currently, and will gain priority in execute range when you have enough rage. Bloodthirst > Whirlwind > Execute > HS.
| Also: 10% less threat will mean more dps. |
| So are we looking at a nerf or at a buff? And how many worthwile uses for SS are there in a raid environment? (Right now I can only think of Kael'thas, Hyjal-Trash, maybe Akama ...) |
| Leaving out Rampage to get DW is not an option I reckon ... |
Executer will be -840 armour for 15 secs:
Executioner - Spells - World of Warcraft
Thoughts on this vs mongoose?
Executioner - Spells - World of Warcraft
Thoughts on this vs mongoose?
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Originally Posted by Darkrenown
Executer will be -840 armour for 15 secs:
Executioner - Spells - World of Warcraft Thoughts on this vs mongoose? |
If all things are equal (i.e. same proc rate) I'd take Executioner over Mongoose.
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Originally Posted by Quixotic
I don't know about this one either, I am definitely going to test 21/40, rampage is a flat +250 ap, while deathwish is 20% damage for 30 seconds, and depending on fight length could be up as much as 25% of the time. The main loss would be precision, but that can be overcome by gear.
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Also, because 2 hand fury has harder time with the extra GCs and timing needed for rampage, 21/40 would be a clear winner atm IMHO.
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Originally Posted by Kiranat
It would really depend on the proc rate - judging from the numbers in this thread -840 armor is roughly a 7% DPS boost, which, correct me if I'm wrong, is about double what warriors get from Mongoose.
If all things are equal (i.e. same proc rate) I'd take Executioner over Mongoose. |
The DW/SS really needs to not happen.
Its nothing but a Fury nerf, can that be their intention?
If they are going to move something out of Fury that is neither a buff nor a nerf to the 31/30 or 33/28 specs out there (like DW for SS), then how about pick something that is NOT a nerf to 17/44? Or even better, take something like Enrage which has zero business being in the PVE DPS tree. It does nothing but make Flurry cost 10 points instead of 5.
Its nothing but a Fury nerf, can that be their intention?
If they are going to move something out of Fury that is neither a buff nor a nerf to the 31/30 or 33/28 specs out there (like DW for SS), then how about pick something that is NOT a nerf to 17/44? Or even better, take something like Enrage which has zero business being in the PVE DPS tree. It does nothing but make Flurry cost 10 points instead of 5.
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Originally Posted by Hozz
The DW/SS really needs to not happen.
Its nothing but a Fury nerf, can that be their intention? If they are going to move something out of Fury that is neither a buff nor a nerf to the 31/30 or 33/28 specs out there (like DW for SS), then how about pick something that is NOT a nerf to 17/44? Or even better, take something like Enrage which has zero business being in the PVE DPS tree. It does nothing but make Flurry cost 10 points instead of 5. |
Personally, I'm done focusing on the nerfs (don't get me wrong, but this nerf/change, as every other will happen. There is no point spamming/focusing on how to stop it.). I'm more interested in how the nerfs/changes will influence our playing.
I am, for some odd reason, incredibly curious on how the reasoning and outcome of this change though.
Hm..
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Originally Posted by Kiranat
It would really depend on the proc rate - judging from the numbers in this thread -840 armor is roughly a 7% DPS boost, which, correct me if I'm wrong, is about double what warriors get from Mongoose.
If all things are equal (i.e. same proc rate) I'd take Executioner over Mongoose. |
It should be correct to assume Executioner will work like any other enchant considering stacking, and probably also uptime. Mongoose and Crusader are equal PPM aren't they?
The Executioner enchant should and probably will be quite a bit better than Mongoose for two reasons:
1. It drops in a higher instance, so with better loot the enchants should be better as well.
2. Warriors benefit 100% from it unlike from Mongoose. Armor Penetration is a much better stat than agility is for Warriors.
Based on calculations (around 7% more overall damage versus around 3% more crit and 2% more attack speed) and on logical thoughts, Executioner will be the enchant of choice for any Warrior, most certainly on the Off-hand as well.
Edit: I'm quite sure it will work just like the other "buff proc enchants" as well (1 PPM, Main- and Offhand proc stacking with eachother).
1. It drops in a higher instance, so with better loot the enchants should be better as well.
2. Warriors benefit 100% from it unlike from Mongoose. Armor Penetration is a much better stat than agility is for Warriors.
Based on calculations (around 7% more overall damage versus around 3% more crit and 2% more attack speed) and on logical thoughts, Executioner will be the enchant of choice for any Warrior, most certainly on the Off-hand as well.
Edit: I'm quite sure it will work just like the other "buff proc enchants" as well (1 PPM, Main- and Offhand proc stacking with eachother).
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Originally Posted by Turpin
My initial theory craft is pointing toward 21/40 being superior. The DPS spreadsheet is showing 60-70 dps from rampage (assumes 100% uptime) and 50-60 dps increase from DW (assumes average usage). This scales differently depending on gear but Rampage does seem to be 10ish dps more in general. But as you imply. proper DW usage combined with increased DW uptime/dps because of timing it with other buffs, can increase dps from DW significantly. In addition, you have at least 37 additional rage per min and at least 1.7 more global cooldowns per minute free (these both assume perfect rampage timing). At the least, you can get more HSs in (which may make the threat change to imp zerk more important), never have to put off a BT/WW to rebuff Rampage, and use extra GCs for rebuffs and OT duties (BS, DS, TC) or stuff like zerk rage/hamstring. So there are alot of advantages to 21/40 with the only real drawback being it is more skill based and provides less consistent dps.
Also, because 2 hand fury has harder time with the extra GCs and timing needed for rampage, 21/40 would be a clear winner atm IMHO. |
I will test 21/40 though. Not having to buff rampage sounds tempting
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Originally Posted by Hozz
The DW/SS really needs to not happen.
Its nothing but a Fury nerf, can that be their intention? If they are going to move something out of Fury that is neither a buff nor a nerf to the 31/30 or 33/28 specs out there (like DW for SS), then how about pick something that is NOT a nerf to 17/44? Or even better, take something like Enrage which has zero business being in the PVE DPS tree. It does nothing but make Flurry cost 10 points instead of 5. |
| Based on calculations (around 7% more overall damage versus around 3% more crit and 2% more attack speed) and on logical thoughts, Executioner will be the enchant of choice for any Warrior, most certainly on the Off-hand as well. |
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Originally Posted by boysailor
I'm more curious about the reason (logic?) behind the change. Why the developers did this change, and more importantly how it will effect my game-play.
Personally, I'm done focusing on the nerfs (don't get me wrong, but this nerf/change, as every other will happen. There is no point spamming/focusing on how to stop it.). I'm more interested in how the nerfs/changes will influence our playing. I am, for some odd reason, incredibly curious on how the reasoning and outcome of this change though. Hm.. |
If enough people scream loud enough they will change it.
It has been done before.
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Originally Posted by Hidden
The Executioner enchant should and probably will be quite a bit better than Mongoose for two reasons:
1. It drops in a higher instance, so with better loot the enchants should be better as well. 2. Warriors benefit 100% from it unlike from Mongoose. Armor Penetration is a much better stat than agility is for Warriors. Based on calculations (around 7% more overall damage versus around 3% more crit and 2% more attack speed) and on logical thoughts, Executioner will be the enchant of choice for any Warrior, most certainly on the Off-hand as well. Edit: I'm quite sure it will work just like the other "buff proc enchants" as well (1 PPM, Main- and Offhand proc stacking with eachother). |
Right now I'm doing calculations on a 5 point eviscerate and finding the POI for AP vs. armor pen. Since haste got nerfed I'm having a strong suspicion armor pen is gonna be the new hotness.
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Originally Posted by Brissa
Of course it is possible to stop it.
If enough people scream loud enough they will change it. It has been done before. |
However Fury Warriors are the minority spec. >_>
Prot > Arms > Fury.
Has there been any statement to what they're trying to achieve by swapping SS and DW?
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Originally Posted by Amorpheus
Has there been any statement to what they're trying to achieve by swapping SS and DW?
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But Monday/Tuesday would be the most likely of times to see a response. It's rare, but The CMs/Kalgan sometimes post on weekends, this time however it seems they're quiet, due to all the rampant crying obviously.
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Originally Posted by Bronwyn
Your initial theory craft sounds good initially, but you fail to mention the additional 3 talent points that I have to leave out of the fury tree. This seems to be precision, so you will lose an additional 3% to hit. There is nothing in the arms tree that seems worth buying - it's either imp. charge or stun/charm resist ...
I will test 21/40 though. Not having to buff rampage sounds tempting |
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Originally Posted by Turpin
Good point, i was thinking from more of a 2 hand fury perspective since 33/28 and various 2H Fury builds are all i have played as raid dps. Also, remember you will be getting weapon expertise in Fury but i guess this is really a pvp talent now. Although you might be able to get more hit from raid gear so perhaps loosing precision is not as bad. And yeah nothing for those extra 3 points in Arms. But for 2H Fury you can put them into 2H Weapon Spec. Combine this with not needing as much hit as DW and i think this will be the prime 2H Fury spec at least.
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There's something else - you seem to save rage when you don't buff rampage, yet, those 275 AP will of course convert into rage again, as they increase your white damage (probably worth more rage than what you get from death wish).
An alternative to stopping the swap would be making sweeping strikes useful against single targets as well. Like Blade Flurry has a 20% haste component, they could add something that makes SS worth using over HS. Since they aim to make it dual-wield friendly perhaps reducing or even removing misses for the duration, that would work well and prevent miss streaks when it matters. It should have a noticable effect, be a better rage dump than HS, but not be OP for a 30sec cooldown.
Of course, that would mean a Fury warrior would have another skill to juggle around... finally incentive to make Rampage passive?
Of course, that would mean a Fury warrior would have another skill to juggle around... finally incentive to make Rampage passive?
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Originally Posted by boysailor
I am, for some odd reason, incredibly curious on how the reasoning and outcome of this change though.
Hm.. |
They are trying to make Fury DPS more consistent and a bit more easier to play. So they add dps to WW and take out dps from an on use burst ability in DW to counter it. They give us SS so we have an easier to use aoe like bladeflurry as a situational utility item. They put Weapon Mastery right above enrage for pvp builds but mostly its the fact that they remove imp intercept from Fury, nerfing pvp as fury because thats the best pvp talent we have.
Finally it is now possible to get both Endless Rage and Deathwish, which wasnt possible before. This should get more ppl to take ER either as 41/20/0 as a new arena spec or as 41/5/15 dps/offtank spec. And also the moving of deathwish may make 2H fury not as viable in the face of 33/28.
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Originally Posted by Bronwyn
There's something else - you seem to save rage when you don't buff rampage, yet, those 275 AP will of course convert into rage again, as they increase your white damage (probably worth more rage than what you get from death wish).
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Edited onPatch 2.2.3
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Originally Posted by Turpin
Here is my take on it.
They are trying to make Fury DPS more consistent and a bit more easier to play. So they add dps to WW and take out dps from an on use burst ability in DW to counter it. They give us SS so we have an easier to use aoe like bladeflurry as a situational utility item. They put Weapon Mastery right above enrage for pvp builds but mostly its the fact that they remove imp intercept from Fury, nerfing pvp as fury because thats the best pvp talent we have. Finally it is now possible to get both Endless Rage and Deathwish, which wasnt possible before. This should get more ppl to take ER either as 41/20/0 as a new arena spec or as 41/5/15 dps/offtank spec. And also the moving of deathwish may make 2H fury not as viable in the face of 33/28. |
It's Blizz's way of breaking the "cookie cutter" builds. 17-41-3 seems like a viable raiding build, getting the 3 for extra threat for off-tanking. Deeper arms seems more viable for pvp/arena warriors with the changes. I still think it should be enrage not deathwish moved to the Arms tree but that would make the trees unbalanced as far as point allocation.
Sweeping strikes in zerker sounds nice and for farming, it will be. But SS is a very touchy thing to use in raids with all of the CC.
And weapon mastery is all right in Fury but why have the disarm proponent to it? I'm on the ptr and testing some builds out but it seems like Blizz had the right idea but was locked in by the ungainly talent blocks in the trees. But if anything, weapon mastery and tactical mastery should change places and remove the expertise from defiance. TM seems has been far less useful for tanks since TC was added to defensive stance.
I also think the change was in part to lower dps just enough to keep things as they are, balance-wise.
Last edited by Randor : 10/13/07 at 5:58 PM.
Well, what I don't understand is the inconsistency they create.
Imo:
Fury : Rage, Brutality, Berserking --> Deathwish
Arms: Proficiency with weapons, etc. --> Weapon Mastery
Imo:
Fury : Rage, Brutality, Berserking --> Deathwish
Arms: Proficiency with weapons, etc. --> Weapon Mastery
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Originally Posted by Hidden
Based on calculations (around 7% more overall damage versus around 3% more crit and 2% more attack speed) and on logical thoughts, Executioner will be the enchant of choice for any Warrior, most certainly on the Off-hand as well.
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Originally Posted by Bronwyn
Is my math off when I think that Deathwish (optimally used) will increase your dps by around 3-4%?
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| Now, the question is will we gain more than 3-4% from the new whirlwind? What about skilling 2/2 imp. WW? That might improve our dps significantly. |
However, with good enough gear (weapons + ap) it may begin to outscale execute like bloodthirst does currently, and will gain priority in execute range when you have enough rage. Bloodthirst > Whirlwind > Execute > HS.
| Also: 10% less threat will mean more dps. |
| So are we looking at a nerf or at a buff? And how many worthwile uses for SS are there in a raid environment? (Right now I can only think of Kael'thas, Hyjal-Trash, maybe Akama ...) |
| Leaving out Rampage to get DW is not an option I reckon ... |
Executer will be -840 armour for 15 secs:
Executioner - Spells - World of Warcraft
Thoughts on this vs mongoose?
Executioner - Spells - World of Warcraft
Thoughts on this vs mongoose?
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Originally Posted by Darkrenown
Executer will be -840 armour for 15 secs:
Executioner - Spells - World of Warcraft Thoughts on this vs mongoose? |
If all things are equal (i.e. same proc rate) I'd take Executioner over Mongoose.
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Originally Posted by Quixotic
I don't know about this one either, I am definitely going to test 21/40, rampage is a flat +250 ap, while deathwish is 20% damage for 30 seconds, and depending on fight length could be up as much as 25% of the time. The main loss would be precision, but that can be overcome by gear.
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Also, because 2 hand fury has harder time with the extra GCs and timing needed for rampage, 21/40 would be a clear winner atm IMHO.
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Originally Posted by Kiranat
It would really depend on the proc rate - judging from the numbers in this thread -840 armor is roughly a 7% DPS boost, which, correct me if I'm wrong, is about double what warriors get from Mongoose.
If all things are equal (i.e. same proc rate) I'd take Executioner over Mongoose. |
The DW/SS really needs to not happen.
Its nothing but a Fury nerf, can that be their intention?
If they are going to move something out of Fury that is neither a buff nor a nerf to the 31/30 or 33/28 specs out there (like DW for SS), then how about pick something that is NOT a nerf to 17/44? Or even better, take something like Enrage which has zero business being in the PVE DPS tree. It does nothing but make Flurry cost 10 points instead of 5.
Its nothing but a Fury nerf, can that be their intention?
If they are going to move something out of Fury that is neither a buff nor a nerf to the 31/30 or 33/28 specs out there (like DW for SS), then how about pick something that is NOT a nerf to 17/44? Or even better, take something like Enrage which has zero business being in the PVE DPS tree. It does nothing but make Flurry cost 10 points instead of 5.
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Originally Posted by Hozz
The DW/SS really needs to not happen.
Its nothing but a Fury nerf, can that be their intention? If they are going to move something out of Fury that is neither a buff nor a nerf to the 31/30 or 33/28 specs out there (like DW for SS), then how about pick something that is NOT a nerf to 17/44? Or even better, take something like Enrage which has zero business being in the PVE DPS tree. It does nothing but make Flurry cost 10 points instead of 5. |
Personally, I'm done focusing on the nerfs (don't get me wrong, but this nerf/change, as every other will happen. There is no point spamming/focusing on how to stop it.). I'm more interested in how the nerfs/changes will influence our playing.
I am, for some odd reason, incredibly curious on how the reasoning and outcome of this change though.
Hm..
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Originally Posted by Kiranat
It would really depend on the proc rate - judging from the numbers in this thread -840 armor is roughly a 7% DPS boost, which, correct me if I'm wrong, is about double what warriors get from Mongoose.
If all things are equal (i.e. same proc rate) I'd take Executioner over Mongoose. |
It should be correct to assume Executioner will work like any other enchant considering stacking, and probably also uptime. Mongoose and Crusader are equal PPM aren't they?
The Executioner enchant should and probably will be quite a bit better than Mongoose for two reasons:
1. It drops in a higher instance, so with better loot the enchants should be better as well.
2. Warriors benefit 100% from it unlike from Mongoose. Armor Penetration is a much better stat than agility is for Warriors.
Based on calculations (around 7% more overall damage versus around 3% more crit and 2% more attack speed) and on logical thoughts, Executioner will be the enchant of choice for any Warrior, most certainly on the Off-hand as well.
Edit: I'm quite sure it will work just like the other "buff proc enchants" as well (1 PPM, Main- and Offhand proc stacking with eachother).
1. It drops in a higher instance, so with better loot the enchants should be better as well.
2. Warriors benefit 100% from it unlike from Mongoose. Armor Penetration is a much better stat than agility is for Warriors.
Based on calculations (around 7% more overall damage versus around 3% more crit and 2% more attack speed) and on logical thoughts, Executioner will be the enchant of choice for any Warrior, most certainly on the Off-hand as well.
Edit: I'm quite sure it will work just like the other "buff proc enchants" as well (1 PPM, Main- and Offhand proc stacking with eachother).
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Originally Posted by Turpin
My initial theory craft is pointing toward 21/40 being superior. The DPS spreadsheet is showing 60-70 dps from rampage (assumes 100% uptime) and 50-60 dps increase from DW (assumes average usage). This scales differently depending on gear but Rampage does seem to be 10ish dps more in general. But as you imply. proper DW usage combined with increased DW uptime/dps because of timing it with other buffs, can increase dps from DW significantly. In addition, you have at least 37 additional rage per min and at least 1.7 more global cooldowns per minute free (these both assume perfect rampage timing). At the least, you can get more HSs in (which may make the threat change to imp zerk more important), never have to put off a BT/WW to rebuff Rampage, and use extra GCs for rebuffs and OT duties (BS, DS, TC) or stuff like zerk rage/hamstring. So there are alot of advantages to 21/40 with the only real drawback being it is more skill based and provides less consistent dps.
Also, because 2 hand fury has harder time with the extra GCs and timing needed for rampage, 21/40 would be a clear winner atm IMHO. |
I will test 21/40 though. Not having to buff rampage sounds tempting
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Originally Posted by Hozz
The DW/SS really needs to not happen.
Its nothing but a Fury nerf, can that be their intention? If they are going to move something out of Fury that is neither a buff nor a nerf to the 31/30 or 33/28 specs out there (like DW for SS), then how about pick something that is NOT a nerf to 17/44? Or even better, take something like Enrage which has zero business being in the PVE DPS tree. It does nothing but make Flurry cost 10 points instead of 5. |
| Based on calculations (around 7% more overall damage versus around 3% more crit and 2% more attack speed) and on logical thoughts, Executioner will be the enchant of choice for any Warrior, most certainly on the Off-hand as well. |
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Originally Posted by boysailor
I'm more curious about the reason (logic?) behind the change. Why the developers did this change, and more importantly how it will effect my game-play.
Personally, I'm done focusing on the nerfs (don't get me wrong, but this nerf/change, as every other will happen. There is no point spamming/focusing on how to stop it.). I'm more interested in how the nerfs/changes will influence our playing. I am, for some odd reason, incredibly curious on how the reasoning and outcome of this change though. Hm.. |
If enough people scream loud enough they will change it.
It has been done before.
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Originally Posted by Hidden
The Executioner enchant should and probably will be quite a bit better than Mongoose for two reasons:
1. It drops in a higher instance, so with better loot the enchants should be better as well. 2. Warriors benefit 100% from it unlike from Mongoose. Armor Penetration is a much better stat than agility is for Warriors. Based on calculations (around 7% more overall damage versus around 3% more crit and 2% more attack speed) and on logical thoughts, Executioner will be the enchant of choice for any Warrior, most certainly on the Off-hand as well. Edit: I'm quite sure it will work just like the other "buff proc enchants" as well (1 PPM, Main- and Offhand proc stacking with eachother). |
Right now I'm doing calculations on a 5 point eviscerate and finding the POI for AP vs. armor pen. Since haste got nerfed I'm having a strong suspicion armor pen is gonna be the new hotness.
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Originally Posted by Brissa
Of course it is possible to stop it.
If enough people scream loud enough they will change it. It has been done before. |
However Fury Warriors are the minority spec. >_>
Prot > Arms > Fury.
Has there been any statement to what they're trying to achieve by swapping SS and DW?
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Originally Posted by Amorpheus
Has there been any statement to what they're trying to achieve by swapping SS and DW?
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But Monday/Tuesday would be the most likely of times to see a response. It's rare, but The CMs/Kalgan sometimes post on weekends, this time however it seems they're quiet, due to all the rampant crying obviously.
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Originally Posted by Bronwyn
Your initial theory craft sounds good initially, but you fail to mention the additional 3 talent points that I have to leave out of the fury tree. This seems to be precision, so you will lose an additional 3% to hit. There is nothing in the arms tree that seems worth buying - it's either imp. charge or stun/charm resist ...
I will test 21/40 though. Not having to buff rampage sounds tempting |
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Originally Posted by Turpin
Good point, i was thinking from more of a 2 hand fury perspective since 33/28 and various 2H Fury builds are all i have played as raid dps. Also, remember you will be getting weapon expertise in Fury but i guess this is really a pvp talent now. Although you might be able to get more hit from raid gear so perhaps loosing precision is not as bad. And yeah nothing for those extra 3 points in Arms. But for 2H Fury you can put them into 2H Weapon Spec. Combine this with not needing as much hit as DW and i think this will be the prime 2H Fury spec at least.
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There's something else - you seem to save rage when you don't buff rampage, yet, those 275 AP will of course convert into rage again, as they increase your white damage (probably worth more rage than what you get from death wish).
An alternative to stopping the swap would be making sweeping strikes useful against single targets as well. Like Blade Flurry has a 20% haste component, they could add something that makes SS worth using over HS. Since they aim to make it dual-wield friendly perhaps reducing or even removing misses for the duration, that would work well and prevent miss streaks when it matters. It should have a noticable effect, be a better rage dump than HS, but not be OP for a 30sec cooldown.
Of course, that would mean a Fury warrior would have another skill to juggle around... finally incentive to make Rampage passive?
Of course, that would mean a Fury warrior would have another skill to juggle around... finally incentive to make Rampage passive?
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Originally Posted by boysailor
I am, for some odd reason, incredibly curious on how the reasoning and outcome of this change though.
Hm.. |
They are trying to make Fury DPS more consistent and a bit more easier to play. So they add dps to WW and take out dps from an on use burst ability in DW to counter it. They give us SS so we have an easier to use aoe like bladeflurry as a situational utility item. They put Weapon Mastery right above enrage for pvp builds but mostly its the fact that they remove imp intercept from Fury, nerfing pvp as fury because thats the best pvp talent we have.
Finally it is now possible to get both Endless Rage and Deathwish, which wasnt possible before. This should get more ppl to take ER either as 41/20/0 as a new arena spec or as 41/5/15 dps/offtank spec. And also the moving of deathwish may make 2H fury not as viable in the face of 33/28.
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Originally Posted by Bronwyn
There's something else - you seem to save rage when you don't buff rampage, yet, those 275 AP will of course convert into rage again, as they increase your white damage (probably worth more rage than what you get from death wish).
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Edited onPatch 2.2.3
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Originally Posted by Turpin
Here is my take on it.
They are trying to make Fury DPS more consistent and a bit more easier to play. So they add dps to WW and take out dps from an on use burst ability in DW to counter it. They give us SS so we have an easier to use aoe like bladeflurry as a situational utility item. They put Weapon Mastery right above enrage for pvp builds but mostly its the fact that they remove imp intercept from Fury, nerfing pvp as fury because thats the best pvp talent we have. Finally it is now possible to get both Endless Rage and Deathwish, which wasnt possible before. This should get more ppl to take ER either as 41/20/0 as a new arena spec or as 41/5/15 dps/offtank spec. And also the moving of deathwish may make 2H fury not as viable in the face of 33/28. |
It's Blizz's way of breaking the "cookie cutter" builds. 17-41-3 seems like a viable raiding build, getting the 3 for extra threat for off-tanking. Deeper arms seems more viable for pvp/arena warriors with the changes. I still think it should be enrage not deathwish moved to the Arms tree but that would make the trees unbalanced as far as point allocation.
Sweeping strikes in zerker sounds nice and for farming, it will be. But SS is a very touchy thing to use in raids with all of the CC.
And weapon mastery is all right in Fury but why have the disarm proponent to it? I'm on the ptr and testing some builds out but it seems like Blizz had the right idea but was locked in by the ungainly talent blocks in the trees. But if anything, weapon mastery and tactical mastery should change places and remove the expertise from defiance. TM seems has been far less useful for tanks since TC was added to defensive stance.
I also think the change was in part to lower dps just enough to keep things as they are, balance-wise.
Last edited by Randor : 10/13/07 at 5:58 PM.
Well, what I don't understand is the inconsistency they create.
Imo:
Fury : Rage, Brutality, Berserking --> Deathwish
Arms: Proficiency with weapons, etc. --> Weapon Mastery
Imo:
Fury : Rage, Brutality, Berserking --> Deathwish
Arms: Proficiency with weapons, etc. --> Weapon Mastery
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Originally Posted by Hidden
Based on calculations (around 7% more overall damage versus around 3% more crit and 2% more attack speed) and on logical thoughts, Executioner will be the enchant of choice for any Warrior, most certainly on the Off-hand as well.
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Originally Posted by Darkrenown
Oh yes, since WW will hit with both weapons OH enchants should proc slightly more often too.
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They are PPM based off of normal swing times. Unless the proc has a hidden cooldown, instants will increase the overall uptime of a proc.
I want to try out 0/31/30 on my alt warrior, albeit just for farming/dailies/5-mans.
It seems like the combination of expertise from the fury tree, the expertise on defiance, flurry and 1h spec should make for a high-threat, decent DW solo-grind dps hybrid.
It seems like the combination of expertise from the fury tree, the expertise on defiance, flurry and 1h spec should make for a high-threat, decent DW solo-grind dps hybrid.
I spent a lot of time as 0/31/30 when I just reached 70. Its fine for any normal instance, soloing and tanking the easier heroics. I definitely recommend it.
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Originally Posted by Opalira
I spent a lot of time as 0/31/30 when I just reached 70. Its fine for any normal instance, soloing and tanking the easier heroics. I definitely recommend it.
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Originally Posted by Randor
0-31-30 has zero points in Deflection. Ouch. No Imp Thunderclap either. A smaller ouch but not the best build for tanking, I'd say.
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I think there must've been a misunderstanding. Olon said he wanted to try the build for "farming/dailies/5-mans" and not for end game tanking or raid dps.
Yeah, 5 mans are where imp TC really helps. Without that it can be pretty hard to keep stuff of your healer.
Also, shield slam is what makes protection tree the protection tree. If you're going any deeper than tier1 in protection tree, you'd better take shield slam; defiance alone is not worth spending all those points in there.
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Originally Posted by Plea
Also, shield slam is what makes protection tree the protection tree. If you're going any deeper than tier1 in protection tree, you'd better take shield slam; defiance alone is not worth spending all those points in there.
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Originally Posted by Plea
Also, shield slam is what makes protection tree the protection tree. If you're going any deeper than tier1 in protection tree, you'd better take shield slam; defiance alone is not worth spending all those points in there.
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I would argue that it is imp shieldblock that makes the prot tree because that is the skill that makes you crush immune.
This is just something I've been kicking around, but some Fury changes to go along with 2.3
These are some ideas for changes in the Warrior Fury talent tree to go along with what is going in Patch 2.3. This is some theory crafting between two people at 5 AM…So I apologize for any misspellings/anything else that looks odd or wrong or slightly murlocish.
Your thoughts and ideas would be incredibly welcome, so check this out, read it, mull it over, work with it in your head and find any reasonable improvements or detractions you can make, ANY CONSTRUCTIVE INPUT IS WELCOME. If you think the Fury talent tree is fine as is or you think it’s over powered or you think these changes aren’t good enough, well…everyone is welcome to an opinion so I won’t complain if you tell me to STFU ZOMGZ.
(DISCLAIMER: This post was made on October 14th I will update it if anything changes in the warrior notes or not)
Here goes, starting from the tree down-
1. Improved Cleave (3 Talent points, 3rd tier down) Gives a buff, stacks up to four times, that increases the damage of your next whirlwind by 10%/20%/30% (according to how many points put into it) So it would be increasing the damage done (if fully stacked on oneself, and again, according to how many points you put in it) by 40%/80%/120%. Make the buff last 15-30 seconds, have it last that full duration so you’re not constantly cleaving; Thus letting you plan your Whirlwind’s and other actions out accordingly (say if the fight is over soon, to refresh your buff or to go for more Whirlwind’s)
2. Separate Enrage from Flurry(Enrage, 5 Talent points, 4th tier down; Flurry, 5 Talent points, 6th tier down) Make them separate talents and not linked together in any way shape or form. PvE DPS Fury Warriors have no need for 25% more damage when crit unless they’re tanking the mob and DPSing it as well. Doing this would enable Fury Warriors who choose not to spend five points in Enrage able to pick up Improved Cleave (See changes above) and get full points in Improved Whirlwind.
3. Flurry (5 Talent points, 6th tier down) Change it back to 30% weapon speed increase. The nerf previously wasn’t that huge of a deal for some people, but if you’re a dedicated Fury DPS warrior, every bit of extra damage counts. Also, the previous nerf was so small some would argue, it was of no consequence…I agree with the first half of that statement, but I view it as a slap in the face, and I for one Do NOT like being slapped.
4. Bloodthirst (1 Talent Point, 7th tier down) A few things were considered with this talent, I can’t decide really between the two listed. 1) Have it give a 10% damage buff for 5-10 seconds (to counter the Deathwish move, it would further improve Fury Warrior DPS issues some talk about) Or 2) Have it heal you for 20-30% of the damage done by your Bloodthirst over a 6 second buff (Would add something survivability for us in PvP, and also in raids that are mob AOE heavy).
5. Rampage (1 Talent Point, 9th tier) Have the Buff Timer refresh on critical strikes. This would add something much needed to this talent. Though some are inclined to disagree with this, look at it this way; You won’t have to spend 20 Precious…Delicious…Rage every 30 seconds for the whole fight (presuming you aren’t unlucky and do not crit once for 30 seconds) So what this little buff would do would effectively give you 250 AP(let’s face it, 275 AP for us fury warriors in 'zerker stance) for the whole fight, and one less timer we have to keep our eyes glued to.
Ok, that’s pretty much it. Again, any constructive input and debate is welcome.
These are some ideas for changes in the Warrior Fury talent tree to go along with what is going in Patch 2.3. This is some theory crafting between two people at 5 AM…So I apologize for any misspellings/anything else that looks odd or wrong or slightly murlocish.
Your thoughts and ideas would be incredibly welcome, so check this out, read it, mull it over, work with it in your head and find any reasonable improvements or detractions you can make, ANY CONSTRUCTIVE INPUT IS WELCOME. If you think the Fury talent tree is fine as is or you think it’s over powered or you think these changes aren’t good enough, well…everyone is welcome to an opinion so I won’t complain if you tell me to STFU ZOMGZ.
(DISCLAIMER: This post was made on October 14th I will update it if anything changes in the warrior notes or not)
Here goes, starting from the tree down-
1. Improved Cleave (3 Talent points, 3rd tier down) Gives a buff, stacks up to four times, that increases the damage of your next whirlwind by 10%/20%/30% (according to how many points put into it) So it would be increasing the damage done (if fully stacked on oneself, and again, according to how many points you put in it) by 40%/80%/120%. Make the buff last 15-30 seconds, have it last that full duration so you’re not constantly cleaving; Thus letting you plan your Whirlwind’s and other actions out accordingly (say if the fight is over soon, to refresh your buff or to go for more Whirlwind’s)
2. Separate Enrage from Flurry(Enrage, 5 Talent points, 4th tier down; Flurry, 5 Talent points, 6th tier down) Make them separate talents and not linked together in any way shape or form. PvE DPS Fury Warriors have no need for 25% more damage when crit unless they’re tanking the mob and DPSing it as well. Doing this would enable Fury Warriors who choose not to spend five points in Enrage able to pick up Improved Cleave (See changes above) and get full points in Improved Whirlwind.
3. Flurry (5 Talent points, 6th tier down) Change it back to 30% weapon speed increase. The nerf previously wasn’t that huge of a deal for some people, but if you’re a dedicated Fury DPS warrior, every bit of extra damage counts. Also, the previous nerf was so small some would argue, it was of no consequence…I agree with the first half of that statement, but I view it as a slap in the face, and I for one Do NOT like being slapped.
4. Bloodthirst (1 Talent Point, 7th tier down) A few things were considered with this talent, I can’t decide really between the two listed. 1) Have it give a 10% damage buff for 5-10 seconds (to counter the Deathwish move, it would further improve Fury Warrior DPS issues some talk about) Or 2) Have it heal you for 20-30% of the damage done by your Bloodthirst over a 6 second buff (Would add something survivability for us in PvP, and also in raids that are mob AOE heavy).
5. Rampage (1 Talent Point, 9th tier) Have the Buff Timer refresh on critical strikes. This would add something much needed to this talent. Though some are inclined to disagree with this, look at it this way; You won’t have to spend 20 Precious…Delicious…Rage every 30 seconds for the whole fight (presuming you aren’t unlucky and do not crit once for 30 seconds) So what this little buff would do would effectively give you 250 AP(let’s face it, 275 AP for us fury warriors in 'zerker stance) for the whole fight, and one less timer we have to keep our eyes glued to.
Ok, that’s pretty much it. Again, any constructive input and debate is welcome.
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Originally Posted by Anhur The Murloc
This is just something I've been kicking around, but some Fury changes to go along with 2.3
These are some ideas for changes in the Warrior Fury talent tree to go along with what is going in Patch 2.3. This is some theory crafting between two people at 5 AM…So I apologize for any misspellings/anything else that looks odd or wrong or slightly murlocish. Your thoughts and ideas would be incredibly welcome, so check this out, read it, mull it over, work with it in your head and find any reasonable improvements or detractions you can make, ANY CONSTRUCTIVE INPUT IS WELCOME. If you think the Fury talent tree is fine as is or you think it’s over powered or you think these changes aren’t good enough, well…everyone is welcome to an opinion so I won’t complain if you tell me to STFU ZOMGZ. (DISCLAIMER: This post was made on October 14th I will update it if anything changes in the warrior notes or not) Here goes, starting from the tree down- 1. Improved Cleave (3 Talent points, 3rd tier down) Gives a buff, stacks up to four times, that increases the damage of your next whirlwind by 10%/20%/30% (according to how many points put into it) So it would be increasing the damage done (if fully stacked on oneself, and again, according to how many points you put in it) by 40%/80%/120%. Make the buff last 15-30 seconds, have it last that full duration so you’re not constantly cleaving; Thus letting you plan your Whirlwind’s and other actions out accordingly (say if the fight is over soon, to refresh your buff or to go for more Whirlwind’s) 2. Separate Enrage from Flurry(Enrage, 5 Talent points, 4th tier down; Flurry, 5 Talent points, 6th tier down) Make them separate talents and not linked together in any way shape or form. PvE DPS Fury Warriors have no need for 25% more damage when crit unless they’re tanking the mob and DPSing it as well. Doing this would enable Fury Warriors who choose not to spend five points in Enrage able to pick up Improved Cleave (See changes above) and get full points in Improved Whirlwind. 3. Flurry (5 Talent points, 6th tier down) Change it back to 30% weapon speed increase. The nerf previously wasn’t that huge of a deal for some people, but if you’re a dedicated Fury DPS warrior, every bit of extra damage counts. Also, the previous nerf was so small some would argue, it was of no consequence…I agree with the first half of that statement, but I view it as a slap in the face, and I for one Do NOT like being slapped. 4. Bloodthirst (1 Talent Point, 7th tier down) A few things were considered with this talent, I can’t decide really between the two listed. 1) Have it give a 10% damage buff for 5-10 seconds (to counter the Deathwish move, it would further improve Fury Warrior DPS issues some talk about) Or 2) Have it heal you for 20-30% of the damage done by your Bloodthirst over a 6 second buff (Would add something survivability for us in PvP, and also in raids that are mob AOE heavy). 5. Rampage (1 Talent Point, 9th tier) Have the Buff Timer refresh on critical strikes. This would add something much needed to this talent. Though some are inclined to disagree with this, look at it this way; You won’t have to spend 20 Precious…Delicious…Rage every 30 seconds for the whole fight (presuming you aren’t unlucky and do not crit once for 30 seconds) So what this little buff would do would effectively give you 250 AP(let’s face it, 275 AP for us fury warriors in 'zerker stance) for the whole fight, and one less timer we have to keep our eyes glued to. Ok, that’s pretty much it. Again, any constructive input and debate is welcome. |
Given how powerful Weapon Mastery seems to be (4 points = -4% miss according to Kalgan), I had an unusual thought.
Defiance is 2 expertise per talent point for a total of 6. I have read that currently it only works in Defensive Stance. If this is changed such that it works in all stances, could it become extremely powerful to a Fury spec?
The current Fury spec is 17/44 - post 2.3 how plausible would something like 3/44/14 be? Picking up Tactical Mastery and Defiance. Is 6 expertise points, ergo, virtually eliminating Dodges and Parries, worth giving up Deep Wounds, Impale and Anger Management? Neither spec can reach the new placement of Death Wish so that is irrelevant.
This would of course depend on whether they change the Expertise granted through Defiance to work in stances other than Defensive. The wording of the talent at present does not tie the Expertise to Defensive Stance.
Defiance is 2 expertise per talent point for a total of 6. I have read that currently it only works in Defensive Stance. If this is changed such that it works in all stances, could it become extremely powerful to a Fury spec?
The current Fury spec is 17/44 - post 2.3 how plausible would something like 3/44/14 be? Picking up Tactical Mastery and Defiance. Is 6 expertise points, ergo, virtually eliminating Dodges and Parries, worth giving up Deep Wounds, Impale and Anger Management? Neither spec can reach the new placement of Death Wish so that is irrelevant.
This would of course depend on whether they change the Expertise granted through Defiance to work in stances other than Defensive. The wording of the talent at present does not tie the Expertise to Defensive Stance.
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Originally Posted by Charsi
Given how powerful Weapon Mastery seems to be (4 points = -4% miss according to Kalgan), I had an unusual thought.
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(bosses' actual dodge rate - 4%) / (bosses' actual dodge rate)
And that will be your percentage reduction in dodges.
Does anyone know how much dodge a boss usually has? The most reliable way to find out would probably be to look at the white damage in a recount window for a main tank on a fight without randomly targeted abilities.
Edited onPatch 2.2.3
First off let me start out by saying i dont usually post here nor on other forums. Most of whats relevant has already been said and theres frankly no need to repeat what other people have already stated. However, after spending some time reading about peoples opinions on the 2.3 PTR notes and in particular the DW/SS swap i do feel alot of the discussions are missing a bigger picture.
Ok, so about the basics.
There's people claiming deathwish is around 3.3% increased damage over time from the simplified model that is 1/6th uptime of 20% damage increase and whirlwind hitting with both weapons alone will outweigh this. Then there's people saying bloodlust/trinkets/executerange boosts deathwish to more then 5-6% easily and whirlwind change wont be able to hold a candle vs it.
Personally, i dont think whirlwind alone will make up loosing deathwish and frankly i doubt many other experienced fury wars with enhancement shamans in group timing bloodthirsts thinks so either. On the other hand Kalgan recently posted on US forums stating Weapon Mastery will be changed to a flat -4% dodge once moved to fury tree. That and whirlwind change might very well be enough to counteract deathwish, or atleast bring damage close enough to not really matter.. or?
Looking at the state of the dps warrior before 2.3, there were 2 distinct types. The 33/28/0 BF-debuffing 2h warrior and then the 17/44/0 dw fury warrior. Depending on raid composition & boss mob at times the first was better then the second and otherway around but for the record, I do think lately the scales been tipping in favor of the 2h warrior if you wanted to theorycraft about it. Mainly due to rogue scaling and hunter 4p T6 being very good.
However, going back to 2.3 PTR and looking at other changes its pretty clear that:
1) Moving DW and imp intercept absolutely cements the arms warrior as the pvp choice. Not saying it wasnt the case before but now its just undebatable fact.
2) Since its my opinion that whirlwind buf alone wont outweigh loosing deathwish, and the BF-debuf dps warrior will still get the -4% dodge i feel 33/28/0 will get closer to 17/44/0 when it comes to personal dps after 2.3 in its current state. Considering what forum this is I should'nt have to tell you competative raiding includes 1 dps warrior.
3) Blizzard acknowledges tank's are short supply in a more general sense, being able to pickup TM for the increased threat in defensive stance might be desirable for alot of dps warriors that's not on the bleeding edge of content (and arguably desirable for the realm population aswell). Even before 2.3 the fury tree was pretty bloated, mainly due to enrage being linked to flurry, and with Weapon Mastery becoming a must have talent its only getting worse.
So, what do you get when you combine those 3?
Maybe im overly pessimistic, but to me it seems like the arms/2h warrior might very well trumph the fury warrior in all 3 of "casual" endgame, bleeding edge raiding and arenas.
Naturally there's all kinds of things that could be done to tip the scale in another direction and while the previous paragraph is the important one i'll include some for completeness.
a) You could, ofc, not swap them leaving the relative dps between dw and 2h decently intact which probably is ok until next expansion of talent trees anyway. Suppose this could cause issues with WotlK talent trees or with trying to make more warriors spec 41p into arms but frankly thats not my problem.
b) Move BF to 2nd tier in arms or some similar accessable spot from fury pov, cementing the fury warrior as the pve endgame dps choice. Not something arms warriors would appreciate i suppose, then again its pretty easy to make an argument why it'd be more balanced.
c) If neither a) or b) happends, i do feel dw fury will need a single target dps buf in one way or the other to counteract the BF-debuf spec. Could be done in many ways, tho naturally giving SS some form of single target effect similar to rogue's blade flurry has been suggested.
.. and ye, do something about enrage being linked to flurry.
Ok, so about the basics.
There's people claiming deathwish is around 3.3% increased damage over time from the simplified model that is 1/6th uptime of 20% damage increase and whirlwind hitting with both weapons alone will outweigh this. Then there's people saying bloodlust/trinkets/executerange boosts deathwish to more then 5-6% easily and whirlwind change wont be able to hold a candle vs it.
Personally, i dont think whirlwind alone will make up loosing deathwish and frankly i doubt many other experienced fury wars with enhancement shamans in group timing bloodthirsts thinks so either. On the other hand Kalgan recently posted on US forums stating Weapon Mastery will be changed to a flat -4% dodge once moved to fury tree. That and whirlwind change might very well be enough to counteract deathwish, or atleast bring damage close enough to not really matter.. or?
Looking at the state of the dps warrior before 2.3, there were 2 distinct types. The 33/28/0 BF-debuffing 2h warrior and then the 17/44/0 dw fury warrior. Depending on raid composition & boss mob at times the first was better then the second and otherway around but for the record, I do think lately the scales been tipping in favor of the 2h warrior if you wanted to theorycraft about it. Mainly due to rogue scaling and hunter 4p T6 being very good.
However, going back to 2.3 PTR and looking at other changes its pretty clear that:
1) Moving DW and imp intercept absolutely cements the arms warrior as the pvp choice. Not saying it wasnt the case before but now its just undebatable fact.
2) Since its my opinion that whirlwind buf alone wont outweigh loosing deathwish, and the BF-debuf dps warrior will still get the -4% dodge i feel 33/28/0 will get closer to 17/44/0 when it comes to personal dps after 2.3 in its current state. Considering what forum this is I should'nt have to tell you competative raiding includes 1 dps warrior.
3) Blizzard acknowledges tank's are short supply in a more general sense, being able to pickup TM for the increased threat in defensive stance might be desirable for alot of dps warriors that's not on the bleeding edge of content (and arguably desirable for the realm population aswell). Even before 2.3 the fury tree was pretty bloated, mainly due to enrage being linked to flurry, and with Weapon Mastery becoming a must have talent its only getting worse.
So, what do you get when you combine those 3?
Maybe im overly pessimistic, but to me it seems like the arms/2h warrior might very well trumph the fury warrior in all 3 of "casual" endgame, bleeding edge raiding and arenas.
Naturally there's all kinds of things that could be done to tip the scale in another direction and while the previous paragraph is the important one i'll include some for completeness.
a) You could, ofc, not swap them leaving the relative dps between dw and 2h decently intact which probably is ok until next expansion of talent trees anyway. Suppose this could cause issues with WotlK talent trees or with trying to make more warriors spec 41p into arms but frankly thats not my problem.
b) Move BF to 2nd tier in arms or some similar accessable spot from fury pov, cementing the fury warrior as the pve endgame dps choice. Not something arms warriors would appreciate i suppose, then again its pretty easy to make an argument why it'd be more balanced.
c) If neither a) or b) happends, i do feel dw fury will need a single target dps buf in one way or the other to counteract the BF-debuf spec. Could be done in many ways, tho naturally giving SS some form of single target effect similar to rogue's blade flurry has been suggested.
.. and ye, do something about enrage being linked to flurry.
Last edited by tib : 10/14/07 at 11:11 AM. Reason: spelling
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Originally Posted by Mjollnir
To my knowledge weapon enchants are PPM based and extra hits don't necessarily mean more procs. Also, 6 extra swings a minute doesn't strike me as all too impressive.
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Originally Posted by Charsi
Given how powerful Weapon Mastery seems to be (4 points = -4% miss according to Kalgan), I had an unusual thought.
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Or, if you mean skill rather than expertise, 4 points is 1.6% hit.
Edit:
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Originally Posted by tib
On the other hand Kalgan recently posted on US forums stating Weapon Mastery will be changed to a flat -4% dodge once moved to fury tree.
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Originally Posted by Darkrenown
Huh, haven't seen Kalgan's post on this. So WM is just -4% dodge raather than expertise points now?
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The only thing Blizz should change is the reguirement of Enrage in order to get Flurry.
If they where deleting this requirement, you were able to get every single sweet fury talent :>
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Originally Posted by Looney
The only thing Blizz should change is the reguirement of Enrage in order to get Flurry.
If they where deleting this requirement, you were able to get every single sweet fury talent :> |
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Originally Posted by Hozz
I really dont see why this was not moved to Arms instead of Deathwish...or just flat out moved. Fury is PVE DPS. It does not belong in that tree.
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Originally Posted by Randor
Enrage should have been moved but being a 5-point talent, it would cause too much havoc. It seems to me that deathwish was moved to arms in order to keep damage from scaling too well with the new threat reduction.
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Originally Posted by Randor
Enrage should have been moved but being a 5-point talent, it would cause too much havoc. It seems to me that deathwish was moved to arms in order to keep damage from scaling too well with the new threat reduction.
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Originally Posted by Mjollnir
So a higher threat ceiling leads you to believe the fury warrior can make use of it? Quite a strong assumption for everyone playing a fury warrior. You're basically giving a fury warrior more breathing room, then taking away half the reason why he's going to need it.
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I really dont see how they can justify this change though and I hope that they revert it.
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Originally Posted by Graul
Are you suggesting that the majority of raiding Warriors were threat capped on the majority of fights? And I don't quite remember, but isn't threat (excluding talents) multiplicative and not additive, or was that just for haste?
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Why would there be any other reason to make such a change? Unless Blizz just wanted to bump Arms for Arena play, pve other than tanking be damned.
I'm on the PTR and just respecced Prot. The expertise granted by Defiance only appears to work in Defensive Stance.
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Originally Posted by Darkrenown
Oh yes, since WW will hit with both weapons OH enchants should proc slightly more often too.
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They are PPM based off of normal swing times. Unless the proc has a hidden cooldown, instants will increase the overall uptime of a proc.
I want to try out 0/31/30 on my alt warrior, albeit just for farming/dailies/5-mans.
It seems like the combination of expertise from the fury tree, the expertise on defiance, flurry and 1h spec should make for a high-threat, decent DW solo-grind dps hybrid.
It seems like the combination of expertise from the fury tree, the expertise on defiance, flurry and 1h spec should make for a high-threat, decent DW solo-grind dps hybrid.
I spent a lot of time as 0/31/30 when I just reached 70. Its fine for any normal instance, soloing and tanking the easier heroics. I definitely recommend it.
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Originally Posted by Opalira
I spent a lot of time as 0/31/30 when I just reached 70. Its fine for any normal instance, soloing and tanking the easier heroics. I definitely recommend it.
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Originally Posted by Randor
0-31-30 has zero points in Deflection. Ouch. No Imp Thunderclap either. A smaller ouch but not the best build for tanking, I'd say.
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I think there must've been a misunderstanding. Olon said he wanted to try the build for "farming/dailies/5-mans" and not for end game tanking or raid dps.
Yeah, 5 mans are where imp TC really helps. Without that it can be pretty hard to keep stuff of your healer.
Also, shield slam is what makes protection tree the protection tree. If you're going any deeper than tier1 in protection tree, you'd better take shield slam; defiance alone is not worth spending all those points in there.
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Originally Posted by Plea
Also, shield slam is what makes protection tree the protection tree. If you're going any deeper than tier1 in protection tree, you'd better take shield slam; defiance alone is not worth spending all those points in there.
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Originally Posted by Plea
Also, shield slam is what makes protection tree the protection tree. If you're going any deeper than tier1 in protection tree, you'd better take shield slam; defiance alone is not worth spending all those points in there.
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I would argue that it is imp shieldblock that makes the prot tree because that is the skill that makes you crush immune.
This is just something I've been kicking around, but some Fury changes to go along with 2.3
These are some ideas for changes in the Warrior Fury talent tree to go along with what is going in Patch 2.3. This is some theory crafting between two people at 5 AM…So I apologize for any misspellings/anything else that looks odd or wrong or slightly murlocish.
Your thoughts and ideas would be incredibly welcome, so check this out, read it, mull it over, work with it in your head and find any reasonable improvements or detractions you can make, ANY CONSTRUCTIVE INPUT IS WELCOME. If you think the Fury talent tree is fine as is or you think it’s over powered or you think these changes aren’t good enough, well…everyone is welcome to an opinion so I won’t complain if you tell me to STFU ZOMGZ.
(DISCLAIMER: This post was made on October 14th I will update it if anything changes in the warrior notes or not)
Here goes, starting from the tree down-
1. Improved Cleave (3 Talent points, 3rd tier down) Gives a buff, stacks up to four times, that increases the damage of your next whirlwind by 10%/20%/30% (according to how many points put into it) So it would be increasing the damage done (if fully stacked on oneself, and again, according to how many points you put in it) by 40%/80%/120%. Make the buff last 15-30 seconds, have it last that full duration so you’re not constantly cleaving; Thus letting you plan your Whirlwind’s and other actions out accordingly (say if the fight is over soon, to refresh your buff or to go for more Whirlwind’s)
2. Separate Enrage from Flurry(Enrage, 5 Talent points, 4th tier down; Flurry, 5 Talent points, 6th tier down) Make them separate talents and not linked together in any way shape or form. PvE DPS Fury Warriors have no need for 25% more damage when crit unless they’re tanking the mob and DPSing it as well. Doing this would enable Fury Warriors who choose not to spend five points in Enrage able to pick up Improved Cleave (See changes above) and get full points in Improved Whirlwind.
3. Flurry (5 Talent points, 6th tier down) Change it back to 30% weapon speed increase. The nerf previously wasn’t that huge of a deal for some people, but if you’re a dedicated Fury DPS warrior, every bit of extra damage counts. Also, the previous nerf was so small some would argue, it was of no consequence…I agree with the first half of that statement, but I view it as a slap in the face, and I for one Do NOT like being slapped.
4. Bloodthirst (1 Talent Point, 7th tier down) A few things were considered with this talent, I can’t decide really between the two listed. 1) Have it give a 10% damage buff for 5-10 seconds (to counter the Deathwish move, it would further improve Fury Warrior DPS issues some talk about) Or 2) Have it heal you for 20-30% of the damage done by your Bloodthirst over a 6 second buff (Would add something survivability for us in PvP, and also in raids that are mob AOE heavy).
5. Rampage (1 Talent Point, 9th tier) Have the Buff Timer refresh on critical strikes. This would add something much needed to this talent. Though some are inclined to disagree with this, look at it this way; You won’t have to spend 20 Precious…Delicious…Rage every 30 seconds for the whole fight (presuming you aren’t unlucky and do not crit once for 30 seconds) So what this little buff would do would effectively give you 250 AP(let’s face it, 275 AP for us fury warriors in 'zerker stance) for the whole fight, and one less timer we have to keep our eyes glued to.
Ok, that’s pretty much it. Again, any constructive input and debate is welcome.
These are some ideas for changes in the Warrior Fury talent tree to go along with what is going in Patch 2.3. This is some theory crafting between two people at 5 AM…So I apologize for any misspellings/anything else that looks odd or wrong or slightly murlocish.
Your thoughts and ideas would be incredibly welcome, so check this out, read it, mull it over, work with it in your head and find any reasonable improvements or detractions you can make, ANY CONSTRUCTIVE INPUT IS WELCOME. If you think the Fury talent tree is fine as is or you think it’s over powered or you think these changes aren’t good enough, well…everyone is welcome to an opinion so I won’t complain if you tell me to STFU ZOMGZ.
(DISCLAIMER: This post was made on October 14th I will update it if anything changes in the warrior notes or not)
Here goes, starting from the tree down-
1. Improved Cleave (3 Talent points, 3rd tier down) Gives a buff, stacks up to four times, that increases the damage of your next whirlwind by 10%/20%/30% (according to how many points put into it) So it would be increasing the damage done (if fully stacked on oneself, and again, according to how many points you put in it) by 40%/80%/120%. Make the buff last 15-30 seconds, have it last that full duration so you’re not constantly cleaving; Thus letting you plan your Whirlwind’s and other actions out accordingly (say if the fight is over soon, to refresh your buff or to go for more Whirlwind’s)
2. Separate Enrage from Flurry(Enrage, 5 Talent points, 4th tier down; Flurry, 5 Talent points, 6th tier down) Make them separate talents and not linked together in any way shape or form. PvE DPS Fury Warriors have no need for 25% more damage when crit unless they’re tanking the mob and DPSing it as well. Doing this would enable Fury Warriors who choose not to spend five points in Enrage able to pick up Improved Cleave (See changes above) and get full points in Improved Whirlwind.
3. Flurry (5 Talent points, 6th tier down) Change it back to 30% weapon speed increase. The nerf previously wasn’t that huge of a deal for some people, but if you’re a dedicated Fury DPS warrior, every bit of extra damage counts. Also, the previous nerf was so small some would argue, it was of no consequence…I agree with the first half of that statement, but I view it as a slap in the face, and I for one Do NOT like being slapped.
4. Bloodthirst (1 Talent Point, 7th tier down) A few things were considered with this talent, I can’t decide really between the two listed. 1) Have it give a 10% damage buff for 5-10 seconds (to counter the Deathwish move, it would further improve Fury Warrior DPS issues some talk about) Or 2) Have it heal you for 20-30% of the damage done by your Bloodthirst over a 6 second buff (Would add something survivability for us in PvP, and also in raids that are mob AOE heavy).
5. Rampage (1 Talent Point, 9th tier) Have the Buff Timer refresh on critical strikes. This would add something much needed to this talent. Though some are inclined to disagree with this, look at it this way; You won’t have to spend 20 Precious…Delicious…Rage every 30 seconds for the whole fight (presuming you aren’t unlucky and do not crit once for 30 seconds) So what this little buff would do would effectively give you 250 AP(let’s face it, 275 AP for us fury warriors in 'zerker stance) for the whole fight, and one less timer we have to keep our eyes glued to.
Ok, that’s pretty much it. Again, any constructive input and debate is welcome.
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Originally Posted by Anhur The Murloc
This is just something I've been kicking around, but some Fury changes to go along with 2.3
These are some ideas for changes in the Warrior Fury talent tree to go along with what is going in Patch 2.3. This is some theory crafting between two people at 5 AM…So I apologize for any misspellings/anything else that looks odd or wrong or slightly murlocish. Your thoughts and ideas would be incredibly welcome, so check this out, read it, mull it over, work with it in your head and find any reasonable improvements or detractions you can make, ANY CONSTRUCTIVE INPUT IS WELCOME. If you think the Fury talent tree is fine as is or you think it’s over powered or you think these changes aren’t good enough, well…everyone is welcome to an opinion so I won’t complain if you tell me to STFU ZOMGZ. (DISCLAIMER: This post was made on October 14th I will update it if anything changes in the warrior notes or not) Here goes, starting from the tree down- 1. Improved Cleave (3 Talent points, 3rd tier down) Gives a buff, stacks up to four times, that increases the damage of your next whirlwind by 10%/20%/30% (according to how many points put into it) So it would be increasing the damage done (if fully stacked on oneself, and again, according to how many points you put in it) by 40%/80%/120%. Make the buff last 15-30 seconds, have it last that full duration so you’re not constantly cleaving; Thus letting you plan your Whirlwind’s and other actions out accordingly (say if the fight is over soon, to refresh your buff or to go for more Whirlwind’s) 2. Separate Enrage from Flurry(Enrage, 5 Talent points, 4th tier down; Flurry, 5 Talent points, 6th tier down) Make them separate talents and not linked together in any way shape or form. PvE DPS Fury Warriors have no need for 25% more damage when crit unless they’re tanking the mob and DPSing it as well. Doing this would enable Fury Warriors who choose not to spend five points in Enrage able to pick up Improved Cleave (See changes above) and get full points in Improved Whirlwind. 3. Flurry (5 Talent points, 6th tier down) Change it back to 30% weapon speed increase. The nerf previously wasn’t that huge of a deal for some people, but if you’re a dedicated Fury DPS warrior, every bit of extra damage counts. Also, the previous nerf was so small some would argue, it was of no consequence…I agree with the first half of that statement, but I view it as a slap in the face, and I for one Do NOT like being slapped. 4. Bloodthirst (1 Talent Point, 7th tier down) A few things were considered with this talent, I can’t decide really between the two listed. 1) Have it give a 10% damage buff for 5-10 seconds (to counter the Deathwish move, it would further improve Fury Warrior DPS issues some talk about) Or 2) Have it heal you for 20-30% of the damage done by your Bloodthirst over a 6 second buff (Would add something survivability for us in PvP, and also in raids that are mob AOE heavy). 5. Rampage (1 Talent Point, 9th tier) Have the Buff Timer refresh on critical strikes. This would add something much needed to this talent. Though some are inclined to disagree with this, look at it this way; You won’t have to spend 20 Precious…Delicious…Rage every 30 seconds for the whole fight (presuming you aren’t unlucky and do not crit once for 30 seconds) So what this little buff would do would effectively give you 250 AP(let’s face it, 275 AP for us fury warriors in 'zerker stance) for the whole fight, and one less timer we have to keep our eyes glued to. Ok, that’s pretty much it. Again, any constructive input and debate is welcome. |
Given how powerful Weapon Mastery seems to be (4 points = -4% miss according to Kalgan), I had an unusual thought.
Defiance is 2 expertise per talent point for a total of 6. I have read that currently it only works in Defensive Stance. If this is changed such that it works in all stances, could it become extremely powerful to a Fury spec?
The current Fury spec is 17/44 - post 2.3 how plausible would something like 3/44/14 be? Picking up Tactical Mastery and Defiance. Is 6 expertise points, ergo, virtually eliminating Dodges and Parries, worth giving up Deep Wounds, Impale and Anger Management? Neither spec can reach the new placement of Death Wish so that is irrelevant.
This would of course depend on whether they change the Expertise granted through Defiance to work in stances other than Defensive. The wording of the talent at present does not tie the Expertise to Defensive Stance.
Defiance is 2 expertise per talent point for a total of 6. I have read that currently it only works in Defensive Stance. If this is changed such that it works in all stances, could it become extremely powerful to a Fury spec?
The current Fury spec is 17/44 - post 2.3 how plausible would something like 3/44/14 be? Picking up Tactical Mastery and Defiance. Is 6 expertise points, ergo, virtually eliminating Dodges and Parries, worth giving up Deep Wounds, Impale and Anger Management? Neither spec can reach the new placement of Death Wish so that is irrelevant.
This would of course depend on whether they change the Expertise granted through Defiance to work in stances other than Defensive. The wording of the talent at present does not tie the Expertise to Defensive Stance.
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Originally Posted by Charsi
Given how powerful Weapon Mastery seems to be (4 points = -4% miss according to Kalgan), I had an unusual thought.
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(bosses' actual dodge rate - 4%) / (bosses' actual dodge rate)
And that will be your percentage reduction in dodges.
Does anyone know how much dodge a boss usually has? The most reliable way to find out would probably be to look at the white damage in a recount window for a main tank on a fight without randomly targeted abilities.
Edited onPatch 2.2.3
First off let me start out by saying i dont usually post here nor on other forums. Most of whats relevant has already been said and theres frankly no need to repeat what other people have already stated. However, after spending some time reading about peoples opinions on the 2.3 PTR notes and in particular the DW/SS swap i do feel alot of the discussions are missing a bigger picture.
Ok, so about the basics.
There's people claiming deathwish is around 3.3% increased damage over time from the simplified model that is 1/6th uptime of 20% damage increase and whirlwind hitting with both weapons alone will outweigh this. Then there's people saying bloodlust/trinkets/executerange boosts deathwish to more then 5-6% easily and whirlwind change wont be able to hold a candle vs it.
Personally, i dont think whirlwind alone will make up loosing deathwish and frankly i doubt many other experienced fury wars with enhancement shamans in group timing bloodthirsts thinks so either. On the other hand Kalgan recently posted on US forums stating Weapon Mastery will be changed to a flat -4% dodge once moved to fury tree. That and whirlwind change might very well be enough to counteract deathwish, or atleast bring damage close enough to not really matter.. or?
Looking at the state of the dps warrior before 2.3, there were 2 distinct types. The 33/28/0 BF-debuffing 2h warrior and then the 17/44/0 dw fury warrior. Depending on raid composition & boss mob at times the first was better then the second and otherway around but for the record, I do think lately the scales been tipping in favor of the 2h warrior if you wanted to theorycraft about it. Mainly due to rogue scaling and hunter 4p T6 being very good.
However, going back to 2.3 PTR and looking at other changes its pretty clear that:
1) Moving DW and imp intercept absolutely cements the arms warrior as the pvp choice. Not saying it wasnt the case before but now its just undebatable fact.
2) Since its my opinion that whirlwind buf alone wont outweigh loosing deathwish, and the BF-debuf dps warrior will still get the -4% dodge i feel 33/28/0 will get closer to 17/44/0 when it comes to personal dps after 2.3 in its current state. Considering what forum this is I should'nt have to tell you competative raiding includes 1 dps warrior.
3) Blizzard acknowledges tank's are short supply in a more general sense, being able to pickup TM for the increased threat in defensive stance might be desirable for alot of dps warriors that's not on the bleeding edge of content (and arguably desirable for the realm population aswell). Even before 2.3 the fury tree was pretty bloated, mainly due to enrage being linked to flurry, and with Weapon Mastery becoming a must have talent its only getting worse.
So, what do you get when you combine those 3?
Maybe im overly pessimistic, but to me it seems like the arms/2h warrior might very well trumph the fury warrior in all 3 of "casual" endgame, bleeding edge raiding and arenas.
Naturally there's all kinds of things that could be done to tip the scale in another direction and while the previous paragraph is the important one i'll include some for completeness.
a) You could, ofc, not swap them leaving the relative dps between dw and 2h decently intact which probably is ok until next expansion of talent trees anyway. Suppose this could cause issues with WotlK talent trees or with trying to make more warriors spec 41p into arms but frankly thats not my problem.
b) Move BF to 2nd tier in arms or some similar accessable spot from fury pov, cementing the fury warrior as the pve endgame dps choice. Not something arms warriors would appreciate i suppose, then again its pretty easy to make an argument why it'd be more balanced.
c) If neither a) or b) happends, i do feel dw fury will need a single target dps buf in one way or the other to counteract the BF-debuf spec. Could be done in many ways, tho naturally giving SS some form of single target effect similar to rogue's blade flurry has been suggested.
.. and ye, do something about enrage being linked to flurry.
Ok, so about the basics.
There's people claiming deathwish is around 3.3% increased damage over time from the simplified model that is 1/6th uptime of 20% damage increase and whirlwind hitting with both weapons alone will outweigh this. Then there's people saying bloodlust/trinkets/executerange boosts deathwish to more then 5-6% easily and whirlwind change wont be able to hold a candle vs it.
Personally, i dont think whirlwind alone will make up loosing deathwish and frankly i doubt many other experienced fury wars with enhancement shamans in group timing bloodthirsts thinks so either. On the other hand Kalgan recently posted on US forums stating Weapon Mastery will be changed to a flat -4% dodge once moved to fury tree. That and whirlwind change might very well be enough to counteract deathwish, or atleast bring damage close enough to not really matter.. or?
Looking at the state of the dps warrior before 2.3, there were 2 distinct types. The 33/28/0 BF-debuffing 2h warrior and then the 17/44/0 dw fury warrior. Depending on raid composition & boss mob at times the first was better then the second and otherway around but for the record, I do think lately the scales been tipping in favor of the 2h warrior if you wanted to theorycraft about it. Mainly due to rogue scaling and hunter 4p T6 being very good.
However, going back to 2.3 PTR and looking at other changes its pretty clear that:
1) Moving DW and imp intercept absolutely cements the arms warrior as the pvp choice. Not saying it wasnt the case before but now its just undebatable fact.
2) Since its my opinion that whirlwind buf alone wont outweigh loosing deathwish, and the BF-debuf dps warrior will still get the -4% dodge i feel 33/28/0 will get closer to 17/44/0 when it comes to personal dps after 2.3 in its current state. Considering what forum this is I should'nt have to tell you competative raiding includes 1 dps warrior.
3) Blizzard acknowledges tank's are short supply in a more general sense, being able to pickup TM for the increased threat in defensive stance might be desirable for alot of dps warriors that's not on the bleeding edge of content (and arguably desirable for the realm population aswell). Even before 2.3 the fury tree was pretty bloated, mainly due to enrage being linked to flurry, and with Weapon Mastery becoming a must have talent its only getting worse.
So, what do you get when you combine those 3?
Maybe im overly pessimistic, but to me it seems like the arms/2h warrior might very well trumph the fury warrior in all 3 of "casual" endgame, bleeding edge raiding and arenas.
Naturally there's all kinds of things that could be done to tip the scale in another direction and while the previous paragraph is the important one i'll include some for completeness.
a) You could, ofc, not swap them leaving the relative dps between dw and 2h decently intact which probably is ok until next expansion of talent trees anyway. Suppose this could cause issues with WotlK talent trees or with trying to make more warriors spec 41p into arms but frankly thats not my problem.
b) Move BF to 2nd tier in arms or some similar accessable spot from fury pov, cementing the fury warrior as the pve endgame dps choice. Not something arms warriors would appreciate i suppose, then again its pretty easy to make an argument why it'd be more balanced.
c) If neither a) or b) happends, i do feel dw fury will need a single target dps buf in one way or the other to counteract the BF-debuf spec. Could be done in many ways, tho naturally giving SS some form of single target effect similar to rogue's blade flurry has been suggested.
.. and ye, do something about enrage being linked to flurry.
Last edited by tib : 10/14/07 at 11:11 AM. Reason: spelling
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Originally Posted by Mjollnir
To my knowledge weapon enchants are PPM based and extra hits don't necessarily mean more procs. Also, 6 extra swings a minute doesn't strike me as all too impressive.
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Originally Posted by Charsi
Given how powerful Weapon Mastery seems to be (4 points = -4% miss according to Kalgan), I had an unusual thought.
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Or, if you mean skill rather than expertise, 4 points is 1.6% hit.
Edit:
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Originally Posted by tib
On the other hand Kalgan recently posted on US forums stating Weapon Mastery will be changed to a flat -4% dodge once moved to fury tree.
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Originally Posted by Darkrenown
Huh, haven't seen Kalgan's post on this. So WM is just -4% dodge raather than expertise points now?
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The only thing Blizz should change is the reguirement of Enrage in order to get Flurry.
If they where deleting this requirement, you were able to get every single sweet fury talent :>
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Originally Posted by Looney
The only thing Blizz should change is the reguirement of Enrage in order to get Flurry.
If they where deleting this requirement, you were able to get every single sweet fury talent :> |
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Originally Posted by Hozz
I really dont see why this was not moved to Arms instead of Deathwish...or just flat out moved. Fury is PVE DPS. It does not belong in that tree.
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Originally Posted by Randor
Enrage should have been moved but being a 5-point talent, it would cause too much havoc. It seems to me that deathwish was moved to arms in order to keep damage from scaling too well with the new threat reduction.
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Originally Posted by Randor
Enrage should have been moved but being a 5-point talent, it would cause too much havoc. It seems to me that deathwish was moved to arms in order to keep damage from scaling too well with the new threat reduction.
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Originally Posted by Mjollnir
So a higher threat ceiling leads you to believe the fury warrior can make use of it? Quite a strong assumption for everyone playing a fury warrior. You're basically giving a fury warrior more breathing room, then taking away half the reason why he's going to need it.
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I really dont see how they can justify this change though and I hope that they revert it.
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Originally Posted by Graul
Are you suggesting that the majority of raiding Warriors were threat capped on the majority of fights? And I don't quite remember, but isn't threat (excluding talents) multiplicative and not additive, or was that just for haste?
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Why would there be any other reason to make such a change? Unless Blizz just wanted to bump Arms for Arena play, pve other than tanking be damned.
I'm on the PTR and just respecced Prot. The expertise granted by Defiance only appears to work in Defensive Stance.
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Originally Posted by Randor
I think threat was a major factor in limiting dps. I'm just a few weeks into DW fury and already have to manage my threat, limiting Heroic Strikes and popping deathwish. Without Salv on, threat is a very big deal. Reducing threat would give me more chances to use HS and pop DW to hopefully do more dps.
Why would there be any other reason to make such a change? Unless Blizz just wanted to bump Arms for Arena play, pve other than tanking be damned. |
Edited onPatch 2.2.3
What does everyone think about using the 2/2 weapon mastery talent instead of 2/2 improved execute talent.
Considering the cost of execute increases from 10 to 15 rage with out the 2/2 talent, so 5 rage more per execute spam, but you gain -4dodge passive. You can only use execute on the last 20% health on the target but the -4dodge will be utilised 100% of the time on the target. My question is will it increase our dps overall to use weapon mastery 2/2 over improved execute 2/2.
Considering the cost of execute increases from 10 to 15 rage with out the 2/2 talent, so 5 rage more per execute spam, but you gain -4dodge passive. You can only use execute on the last 20% health on the target but the -4dodge will be utilised 100% of the time on the target. My question is will it increase our dps overall to use weapon mastery 2/2 over improved execute 2/2.
Last edited by ckaparos : 10/14/07 at 9:30 PM.
Imo, its better to do not dodge 4% of the hits 100% of the fight, (and it gives more rage), than have 5 less rage to use for the lasts 20%...
And, imo, in most fights it's more important to improve the DPS between 100% to 0 than just the lasts 20%... It will reduce the time required to go to the lasts 20%, and it's better for everyone !
And, imo, in most fights it's more important to improve the DPS between 100% to 0 than just the lasts 20%... It will reduce the time required to go to the lasts 20%, and it's better for everyone !
OK, the 4% must have been a misprint. On the PTR, 2/2 Weapon Mastery reads as reducing chance to be dodged/parried by 1%.
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Originally Posted by Randor
OK, the 4% must have been a misprint. On the PTR, 2/2 Weapon Mastery reads as reducing chance to be dodged/parried by 1%.
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Thats what it says on the PTR at present however it has not been updated yet it should be soon. A Blue has confirmed on the US wow forums 100% that 2/2 weapon mastery will reduce the chance to dodge attacks by a flat -4%
Below is the link confirming this change.
WoW Forums -> Deathwish swap not the end of the world...
and here
WoW Forums -> Deathwish swap not the end of the world...
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Originally Posted by ckaparos
Thats what it says on the PTR at present however it has not been updated yet it should be soon. A Blue has confirmed on the US wow forums 100% that 2/2 weapon mastery will reduce the chance to dodge attacks by a flat -4%
Below is the link confirming this change. WoW Forums -> Deathwish swap not the end of the world... and here WoW Forums -> Deathwish swap not the end of the world... |
This is still great, since your yellow damage will improve.
5% dodge = 1 out of 20 yellow attacks will be dodged.
4% dodge = 1 out of 25 yellow attacks will be dodged.
Getting 20 points in expertise will result in a 5% increase in yellow hits (not crits).
I just compared whirlwind live/ptr.
I used BS as the only buff and the same gear. Mobs were Apexis Flayers in Blade's Edge.
OH-Weapon: Rising Tide
LIVE:
Average hit: 400, Average crit: 850
PTR:
Average hit: 680, Average crit: 1500
Depending on your crit chance, this will give you appr. 430 more damage per whirlwind (40% crit assumed).
If we assume optimal whirlwind usage and 1/2 imp. whirlwind, you will get an increase of 430/9 dps = +48 DPS or (2/2 imp. ww) 430/8 = +54 DPS.
How does that compare to the loss of DW?
DW (assuming you use it whenever it's ready, ignoring optimized usage with heroism or in execute range) will be up 1/6 of the time, thus increasing your dps by 3,33%.
1000 DPS ---> + 33 DPS
1500 DPS ---> + 50 DPS
So, according to my initial tests, you need 1500 DPS in every Deathwish phase to achieve a dps boost similar to the new whirlwind. Apparently, the change wasn't too bad, especially if you consider the following aspects:
Whirlwind has too yellow attacks --> more flurry uptime + improved proc chance
Whirlwind as yellow damage profits immensely from expertise
As soon as there is more than one mob to fight, the combination of ss + ww is extremely powerful
Even though I was very squeamish about loosing DW at first, it seems to be a buff in the end. Combined with the -10% threat it definitely is.
I used BS as the only buff and the same gear. Mobs were Apexis Flayers in Blade's Edge.
OH-Weapon: Rising Tide
LIVE:
Average hit: 400, Average crit: 850
PTR:
Average hit: 680, Average crit: 1500
Depending on your crit chance, this will give you appr. 430 more damage per whirlwind (40% crit assumed).
If we assume optimal whirlwind usage and 1/2 imp. whirlwind, you will get an increase of 430/9 dps = +48 DPS or (2/2 imp. ww) 430/8 = +54 DPS.
How does that compare to the loss of DW?
DW (assuming you use it whenever it's ready, ignoring optimized usage with heroism or in execute range) will be up 1/6 of the time, thus increasing your dps by 3,33%.
1000 DPS ---> + 33 DPS
1500 DPS ---> + 50 DPS
So, according to my initial tests, you need 1500 DPS in every Deathwish phase to achieve a dps boost similar to the new whirlwind. Apparently, the change wasn't too bad, especially if you consider the following aspects:
Whirlwind has too yellow attacks --> more flurry uptime + improved proc chance
Whirlwind as yellow damage profits immensely from expertise
As soon as there is more than one mob to fight, the combination of ss + ww is extremely powerful
Even though I was very squeamish about loosing DW at first, it seems to be a buff in the end. Combined with the -10% threat it definitely is.
So I finally got on the PTR.
On the Whirlwind change: It seems that the attack hits with both weapons, separately, I just assumed it could combine the weapon damage of both of your weapons into 1 WW attack, like Rogue Mutilate, but in the combat log it registers an attack for each weapon, which is nice.
On the Mace Spec change: It's a pure PvP spec, but the nerf didn't seem very huge, from the phasing people have done it's -1% proc rate with slow weapons (3.5-3.8 Speed) and with the additional rage on the proc it kinda makes up for it.
On the Death Wish change: I miss it, did a little Zul'Aman testing, was saddened to see there was no Death Wish to pop, only Sweeping Strikes, which was kinda worthless because of the nature of Zul'Aman being a boss run instance. =/
On the Imp Zerker Stance change: had a Paladin salv me, so on top of that there was no way I could pull aggro, and I was going all out....all out as you can go without Death Wish. >_> Including Haste Pots, and Reckless Executes.
Overall I feel like my DPS has been nerfed, hoping the -4% dodge change will boast it, but right now I'm seriously considering a 33/28 build if it goes live as is, fairly sure 4% physical damage boast, in addition to everything the spec provides is better then this at the moment.
On the Whirlwind change: It seems that the attack hits with both weapons, separately, I just assumed it could combine the weapon damage of both of your weapons into 1 WW attack, like Rogue Mutilate, but in the combat log it registers an attack for each weapon, which is nice.
On the Mace Spec change: It's a pure PvP spec, but the nerf didn't seem very huge, from the phasing people have done it's -1% proc rate with slow weapons (3.5-3.8 Speed) and with the additional rage on the proc it kinda makes up for it.
On the Death Wish change: I miss it, did a little Zul'Aman testing, was saddened to see there was no Death Wish to pop, only Sweeping Strikes, which was kinda worthless because of the nature of Zul'Aman being a boss run instance. =/
On the Imp Zerker Stance change: had a Paladin salv me, so on top of that there was no way I could pull aggro, and I was going all out....all out as you can go without Death Wish. >_> Including Haste Pots, and Reckless Executes.
Overall I feel like my DPS has been nerfed, hoping the -4% dodge change will boast it, but right now I'm seriously considering a 33/28 build if it goes live as is, fairly sure 4% physical damage boast, in addition to everything the spec provides is better then this at the moment.
Btw, in a raid environment, your whirlwind OH attack will of course benefit from raidbuffed attackpower and sharpening stones.
THE FOLLOWING IS PROJECTION ONLY:
If you aquire an additional 1400 AP from Raidbuffs, your whirlwind OH damage will go up 62.5 per non-crit and 137 per crit, resulting in a dps increase of roughly +10 DPS, definitely outweighing DW.
THE FOLLOWING IS PROJECTION ONLY:
If you aquire an additional 1400 AP from Raidbuffs, your whirlwind OH damage will go up 62.5 per non-crit and 137 per crit, resulting in a dps increase of roughly +10 DPS, definitely outweighing DW.
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Originally Posted by Bronwyn
How does that compare to the loss of DW?
DW (assuming you use it whenever it's ready, ignoring optimized usage with heroism or in execute range) will be up 1/6 of the time, thus increasing your dps by 3,33%. 1000 DPS ---> + 33 DPS 1500 DPS ---> + 50 DPS So, according to my initial tests, you need 1500 DPS in every Deathwish phase to achieve a dps boost similar to the new whirlwind. |
Weapon expertise talent might make this go away, but I can't really find any talent points to put in it. The whirlwind calculation was done with a dagger as OH, with a slow OH the damage will be bigger (*sadface, I like my fast weapons, why force us even more into using slow...).
I'm not too worried about the changes, the whirlwind change might very well make up for losing DW. You will not be able to pop DW (due to missing rage, wanting to "save" DW for later or just being unfocused) at every single cd, making the buff worse.
edit: I'm fully buffed in the spreadsheet with about 2.7k AP, 35% crit and 16% hit (no haste, no -AP).
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Originally Posted by Gruntle
You need to take the extra rage generated by DW into account to get the correct damage boost.
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The extra rage that you generate is only relevant if you are ragestarved otherwise - also you will have to burn it with heroic strikes - which makes your threat cap relevant in turn. This however, has been raised do to new imp. bers. stance.|
Originally Posted by Bronwyn
This is wrong. 1 point of expertise converts to -0.25% dodge/parry. Thus, 2/2 weapon mastery will result in -1% dodge/parry.
This is still great, since your yellow damage will improve. 5% dodge = 1 out of 20 yellow attacks will be dodged. 4% dodge = 1 out of 25 yellow attacks will be dodged. Getting 20 points in expertise will result in a 5% increase in yellow hits (not crits). |
What part of what i said is wrong? The GM posted stating that weapon mastery will not have expertise in the talent! I know 1 poin of expertise converts to -0.25% dodge/parry but the point is weapon mastery wil not have expertise according to the blue post, he stated it will give flat out -4% chance to dodge when they update the PTR.
It has expertise, i.e. 4 points of it (2 per talent point). 4 points will be 1% dodge reduce.
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Originally Posted by Bronwyn
It has expertise, i.e. 4 points of it (2 per talent point). 4 points will be 1% dodge reduce.
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Originally Posted by Bronwyn
It has expertise, i.e. 4 points of it (2 per talent point). 4 points will be 1% dodge reduce.
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We know what it says now in PTR the point is the blue said it is going to be a flat out -4% dodge not expertise.
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Originally Posted by Bronwyn
I just compared whirlwind live/ptr.
I used BS as the only buff and the same gear. Mobs were Apexis Flayers in Blade's Edge. OH-Weapon: Rising Tide LIVE: Average hit: 400, Average crit: 850 PTR: Average hit: 680, Average crit: 1500 Depending on your crit chance, this will give you appr. 430 more damage per whirlwind (40% crit assumed). If we assume optimal whirlwind usage and 1/2 imp. whirlwind, you will get an increase of 430/9 dps = +48 DPS or (2/2 imp. ww) 430/8 = +54 DPS. How does that compare to the loss of DW? DW (assuming you use it whenever it's ready, ignoring optimized usage with heroism or in execute range) will be up 1/6 of the time, thus increasing your dps by 3,33%. 1000 DPS ---> + 33 DPS 1500 DPS ---> + 50 DPS So, according to my initial tests, you need 1500 DPS in every Deathwish phase to achieve a dps boost similar to the new whirlwind. Apparently, the change wasn't too bad, especially if you consider the following aspects: Whirlwind has too yellow attacks --> more flurry uptime + improved proc chance Whirlwind as yellow damage profits immensely from expertise As soon as there is more than one mob to fight, the combination of ss + ww is extremely powerful Even though I was very squeamish about loosing DW at first, it seems to be a buff in the end. Combined with the -10% threat it definitely is. |
As you yourself have stated, ignoring optimized DW usage, the results yield such-and-such. But from a real world perspective, who doesn't optimize DW usage? I have a macro that pops troll zerk, DW, BL brooch, and haste pot simultaneously (this is usually timed about when the enh sham burns his Drums as well, but always timed so I get the full duration's benefit.). And then obviously I've got Recklessness to add to the mix for the 20% burn. I'd assume any fury warrior worth their salt has a similar or superior DW macro/usage. With the exception of the brooch, I can still pop all the same goodies and none benefits WW not in the slightest (Recklessness would make 2? WW's guaranteed crits).
The numbers I'm plugging into the spreadsheet coupled with the new changes yield very similar results as what I'm seeing now. When/if the SS/DW change goes live, it might very well be a L2P situation where styles must adjust to incorporate the changes, but I remain skeptical on the trade off we've received. It's like you've taken away the teddy bear I've gone to sleep with since birth, handed me a rag doll, and are trying to convince me that the rag doll is just as good.
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Originally Posted by Gruntle
You need to take the extra rage generated by DW into account to get the correct damage boost. Using the dps spreadsheet i lose about 5% dps when I remove Deathwish from my talents. Updating the spreadsheet to add the OH damage to WW (not sure exactly how it will work, I just add the average OH hit to the WW damage) I get a total dps decrease of 2.8%.
Weapon expertise talent might make this go away, but I can't really find any talent points to put in it. The whirlwind calculation was done with a dagger as OH, with a slow OH the damage will be bigger (*sadface, I like my fast weapons, why force us even more into using slow...). I'm not too worried about the changes, the whirlwind change might very well make up for losing DW. You will not be able to pop DW (due to missing rage, wanting to "save" DW for later or just being unfocused) at every single cd, making the buff worse. |
Don't forget that daggers are normalized for 1.7 instead of 2.4 for instant attacks. Which will widen the gap between a fast OH dagger and a slow non dagger OH.
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Originally Posted by Mem
Don't forget that daggers are normalized for 1.7 instead of 2.4 for instant attacks. Which will widen the gap between a fast OH dagger and a slow non dagger OH.
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Btw, the calculations I made of WW damage was completely wrong (didn't include normalized AP damage from OH). With a 1.8 sec dagger you will lose less than 1% dps with the DW+WW change combined (assuming DW to be up 1/6 of the time but without any stacking of effects). Changing my Emerald ripper OH to Spiteblade (2.7 sec) results in a net dps increase.
It's almost impossible to model Deathwish as anything else than "up for 1/6 of the time". It may be possible that modeling it in this way gives less damage than reality due to the stacking effect of different buffs, but there is no way to know short of checking combat logs. However, if you wait to trigger DW until you have other buffs ready you're also losing dps due to not using it 1/6 of the time.
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Originally Posted by Gruntle
However, if you wait to trigger DW until you have other buffs ready you're also losing dps due to not using it 1/6 of the time.
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What are you on about? "Bot style play"? Really don't understand what point you're trying to make here.
I'm only talking about how to model Deathwish. People are claiming anything between 1 to 20 % dps increase from Deathwish alone, there is no way to know until someone has actually checked the logs (good if you do that, would be interested in the results).
The way most people are modeling Deathwish is to assume that the talent point gives you a 20% damage increase 1/6th of the time, i.e. a 3.33% damage increase (in spreadsheets one can also include the effect of extra rage income -> more heroic strikes, which can yield a total dps increase of about 5% for Deathwish, depending on gear setup). What I meant was just that if you compare a standard model of Deathwish being up 1/6th of the time to a "model" where it's triggered at the same time as other buffs, you cannot assume that it's up the same amount of time.
I know that the effect of Deathwish will be a lot greater when you have other buffs active, but I'm not certain that it's worth "saving" Deathwish to these occasions. If you can time all the effects to be active at the same time without losing any waiting time you should of course do so. In some cases it's obviously easy to do it (e.g. <20% DW+Recklessness) and of course I do that.
I'm only talking about how to model Deathwish. People are claiming anything between 1 to 20 % dps increase from Deathwish alone, there is no way to know until someone has actually checked the logs (good if you do that, would be interested in the results).
The way most people are modeling Deathwish is to assume that the talent point gives you a 20% damage increase 1/6th of the time, i.e. a 3.33% damage increase (in spreadsheets one can also include the effect of extra rage income -> more heroic strikes, which can yield a total dps increase of about 5% for Deathwish, depending on gear setup). What I meant was just that if you compare a standard model of Deathwish being up 1/6th of the time to a "model" where it's triggered at the same time as other buffs, you cannot assume that it's up the same amount of time.
I know that the effect of Deathwish will be a lot greater when you have other buffs active, but I'm not certain that it's worth "saving" Deathwish to these occasions. If you can time all the effects to be active at the same time without losing any waiting time you should of course do so. In some cases it's obviously easy to do it (e.g. <20% DW+Recklessness) and of course I do that.
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Originally Posted by Gruntle
It's almost impossible to model Deathwish as anything else than "up for 1/6 of the time". It may be possible that modeling it in this way gives less damage than reality due to the stacking effect of different buffs, but there is no way to know short of checking combat logs. However, if you wait to trigger DW until you have other buffs ready you're also losing dps due to not using it 1/6 of the time.
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It's those 7 minute+ fights that are tricky, because you kick yourself for not having DW up that 3rd time, or waiting because you overestimated your normal raid DPS. It just takes experience and a good understanding of the encounter, and your raid's normal DPS to maximize DW's potential.
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Originally Posted by Bronwyn
Getting 20 points in expertise will result in a 5% increase in yellow hits (not crits).
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Originally Posted by Xoya
Actually, this is somewhat incorrect. Yellow attacks use a two-roll attack table, so the 20 points in expertise will actually give you a greater than 5% increase in yellow hits (damage-wise) because those hits can then be translated into crits. In addition, 20 points in expertise will also result in 5% increase in white hits, though I imagine you meant that for a given, but in case anyone saw just that line I felt I should add some clarification.
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Also - do we have defintive info on how the "non-dodges" will be misses or hits?
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Originally Posted by Xoya
Actually, this is somewhat incorrect. Yellow attacks use a two-roll attack table, so the 20 points in expertise will actually give you a greater than 5% increase in yellow hits (damage-wise) because those hits can then be translated into crits. In addition, 20 points in expertise will also result in 5% increase in white hits, though I imagine you meant that for a given, but in case anyone saw just that line I felt I should add some clarification.
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Deathwish is far more than a 3.33% increase no matter how you look at it, even if you only get 2 deathwish in a 7 minute fight. The ability of an 'on demand' skill that you can time with other cooldowns far outweigh a small increase on whirlwind damage. Some of us warriors cannot choose to use a slow offhand, and from the numbers posted, whirlwind is still last in the rotation, so you still will clip seconds off it keeping bloodthirst on priority in real world situations.
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Originally Posted by Randor
I think threat was a major factor in limiting dps. I'm just a few weeks into DW fury and already have to manage my threat, limiting Heroic Strikes and popping deathwish. Without Salv on, threat is a very big deal. Reducing threat would give me more chances to use HS and pop DW to hopefully do more dps.
Why would there be any other reason to make such a change? Unless Blizz just wanted to bump Arms for Arena play, pve other than tanking be damned. |
Edited onPatch 2.2.3
What does everyone think about using the 2/2 weapon mastery talent instead of 2/2 improved execute talent.
Considering the cost of execute increases from 10 to 15 rage with out the 2/2 talent, so 5 rage more per execute spam, but you gain -4dodge passive. You can only use execute on the last 20% health on the target but the -4dodge will be utilised 100% of the time on the target. My question is will it increase our dps overall to use weapon mastery 2/2 over improved execute 2/2.
Considering the cost of execute increases from 10 to 15 rage with out the 2/2 talent, so 5 rage more per execute spam, but you gain -4dodge passive. You can only use execute on the last 20% health on the target but the -4dodge will be utilised 100% of the time on the target. My question is will it increase our dps overall to use weapon mastery 2/2 over improved execute 2/2.
Last edited by ckaparos : 10/14/07 at 9:30 PM.
Imo, its better to do not dodge 4% of the hits 100% of the fight, (and it gives more rage), than have 5 less rage to use for the lasts 20%...
And, imo, in most fights it's more important to improve the DPS between 100% to 0 than just the lasts 20%... It will reduce the time required to go to the lasts 20%, and it's better for everyone !
And, imo, in most fights it's more important to improve the DPS between 100% to 0 than just the lasts 20%... It will reduce the time required to go to the lasts 20%, and it's better for everyone !
OK, the 4% must have been a misprint. On the PTR, 2/2 Weapon Mastery reads as reducing chance to be dodged/parried by 1%.
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Originally Posted by Randor
OK, the 4% must have been a misprint. On the PTR, 2/2 Weapon Mastery reads as reducing chance to be dodged/parried by 1%.
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Thats what it says on the PTR at present however it has not been updated yet it should be soon. A Blue has confirmed on the US wow forums 100% that 2/2 weapon mastery will reduce the chance to dodge attacks by a flat -4%
Below is the link confirming this change.
WoW Forums -> Deathwish swap not the end of the world...
and here
WoW Forums -> Deathwish swap not the end of the world...
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Originally Posted by ckaparos
Thats what it says on the PTR at present however it has not been updated yet it should be soon. A Blue has confirmed on the US wow forums 100% that 2/2 weapon mastery will reduce the chance to dodge attacks by a flat -4%
Below is the link confirming this change. WoW Forums -> Deathwish swap not the end of the world... and here WoW Forums -> Deathwish swap not the end of the world... |
This is still great, since your yellow damage will improve.
5% dodge = 1 out of 20 yellow attacks will be dodged.
4% dodge = 1 out of 25 yellow attacks will be dodged.
Getting 20 points in expertise will result in a 5% increase in yellow hits (not crits).
I just compared whirlwind live/ptr.
I used BS as the only buff and the same gear. Mobs were Apexis Flayers in Blade's Edge.
OH-Weapon: Rising Tide
LIVE:
Average hit: 400, Average crit: 850
PTR:
Average hit: 680, Average crit: 1500
Depending on your crit chance, this will give you appr. 430 more damage per whirlwind (40% crit assumed).
If we assume optimal whirlwind usage and 1/2 imp. whirlwind, you will get an increase of 430/9 dps = +48 DPS or (2/2 imp. ww) 430/8 = +54 DPS.
How does that compare to the loss of DW?
DW (assuming you use it whenever it's ready, ignoring optimized usage with heroism or in execute range) will be up 1/6 of the time, thus increasing your dps by 3,33%.
1000 DPS ---> + 33 DPS
1500 DPS ---> + 50 DPS
So, according to my initial tests, you need 1500 DPS in every Deathwish phase to achieve a dps boost similar to the new whirlwind. Apparently, the change wasn't too bad, especially if you consider the following aspects:
Whirlwind has too yellow attacks --> more flurry uptime + improved proc chance
Whirlwind as yellow damage profits immensely from expertise
As soon as there is more than one mob to fight, the combination of ss + ww is extremely powerful
Even though I was very squeamish about loosing DW at first, it seems to be a buff in the end. Combined with the -10% threat it definitely is.
I used BS as the only buff and the same gear. Mobs were Apexis Flayers in Blade's Edge.
OH-Weapon: Rising Tide
LIVE:
Average hit: 400, Average crit: 850
PTR:
Average hit: 680, Average crit: 1500
Depending on your crit chance, this will give you appr. 430 more damage per whirlwind (40% crit assumed).
If we assume optimal whirlwind usage and 1/2 imp. whirlwind, you will get an increase of 430/9 dps = +48 DPS or (2/2 imp. ww) 430/8 = +54 DPS.
How does that compare to the loss of DW?
DW (assuming you use it whenever it's ready, ignoring optimized usage with heroism or in execute range) will be up 1/6 of the time, thus increasing your dps by 3,33%.
1000 DPS ---> + 33 DPS
1500 DPS ---> + 50 DPS
So, according to my initial tests, you need 1500 DPS in every Deathwish phase to achieve a dps boost similar to the new whirlwind. Apparently, the change wasn't too bad, especially if you consider the following aspects:
Whirlwind has too yellow attacks --> more flurry uptime + improved proc chance
Whirlwind as yellow damage profits immensely from expertise
As soon as there is more than one mob to fight, the combination of ss + ww is extremely powerful
Even though I was very squeamish about loosing DW at first, it seems to be a buff in the end. Combined with the -10% threat it definitely is.
So I finally got on the PTR.
On the Whirlwind change: It seems that the attack hits with both weapons, separately, I just assumed it could combine the weapon damage of both of your weapons into 1 WW attack, like Rogue Mutilate, but in the combat log it registers an attack for each weapon, which is nice.
On the Mace Spec change: It's a pure PvP spec, but the nerf didn't seem very huge, from the phasing people have done it's -1% proc rate with slow weapons (3.5-3.8 Speed) and with the additional rage on the proc it kinda makes up for it.
On the Death Wish change: I miss it, did a little Zul'Aman testing, was saddened to see there was no Death Wish to pop, only Sweeping Strikes, which was kinda worthless because of the nature of Zul'Aman being a boss run instance. =/
On the Imp Zerker Stance change: had a Paladin salv me, so on top of that there was no way I could pull aggro, and I was going all out....all out as you can go without Death Wish. >_> Including Haste Pots, and Reckless Executes.
Overall I feel like my DPS has been nerfed, hoping the -4% dodge change will boast it, but right now I'm seriously considering a 33/28 build if it goes live as is, fairly sure 4% physical damage boast, in addition to everything the spec provides is better then this at the moment.
On the Whirlwind change: It seems that the attack hits with both weapons, separately, I just assumed it could combine the weapon damage of both of your weapons into 1 WW attack, like Rogue Mutilate, but in the combat log it registers an attack for each weapon, which is nice.
On the Mace Spec change: It's a pure PvP spec, but the nerf didn't seem very huge, from the phasing people have done it's -1% proc rate with slow weapons (3.5-3.8 Speed) and with the additional rage on the proc it kinda makes up for it.
On the Death Wish change: I miss it, did a little Zul'Aman testing, was saddened to see there was no Death Wish to pop, only Sweeping Strikes, which was kinda worthless because of the nature of Zul'Aman being a boss run instance. =/
On the Imp Zerker Stance change: had a Paladin salv me, so on top of that there was no way I could pull aggro, and I was going all out....all out as you can go without Death Wish. >_> Including Haste Pots, and Reckless Executes.
Overall I feel like my DPS has been nerfed, hoping the -4% dodge change will boast it, but right now I'm seriously considering a 33/28 build if it goes live as is, fairly sure 4% physical damage boast, in addition to everything the spec provides is better then this at the moment.
Btw, in a raid environment, your whirlwind OH attack will of course benefit from raidbuffed attackpower and sharpening stones.
THE FOLLOWING IS PROJECTION ONLY:
If you aquire an additional 1400 AP from Raidbuffs, your whirlwind OH damage will go up 62.5 per non-crit and 137 per crit, resulting in a dps increase of roughly +10 DPS, definitely outweighing DW.
THE FOLLOWING IS PROJECTION ONLY:
If you aquire an additional 1400 AP from Raidbuffs, your whirlwind OH damage will go up 62.5 per non-crit and 137 per crit, resulting in a dps increase of roughly +10 DPS, definitely outweighing DW.
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Originally Posted by Bronwyn
How does that compare to the loss of DW?
DW (assuming you use it whenever it's ready, ignoring optimized usage with heroism or in execute range) will be up 1/6 of the time, thus increasing your dps by 3,33%. 1000 DPS ---> + 33 DPS 1500 DPS ---> + 50 DPS So, according to my initial tests, you need 1500 DPS in every Deathwish phase to achieve a dps boost similar to the new whirlwind. |
Weapon expertise talent might make this go away, but I can't really find any talent points to put in it. The whirlwind calculation was done with a dagger as OH, with a slow OH the damage will be bigger (*sadface, I like my fast weapons, why force us even more into using slow...).
I'm not too worried about the changes, the whirlwind change might very well make up for losing DW. You will not be able to pop DW (due to missing rage, wanting to "save" DW for later or just being unfocused) at every single cd, making the buff worse.
edit: I'm fully buffed in the spreadsheet with about 2.7k AP, 35% crit and 16% hit (no haste, no -AP).
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Originally Posted by Gruntle
You need to take the extra rage generated by DW into account to get the correct damage boost.
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The extra rage that you generate is only relevant if you are ragestarved otherwise - also you will have to burn it with heroic strikes - which makes your threat cap relevant in turn. This however, has been raised do to new imp. bers. stance.|
Originally Posted by Bronwyn
This is wrong. 1 point of expertise converts to -0.25% dodge/parry. Thus, 2/2 weapon mastery will result in -1% dodge/parry.
This is still great, since your yellow damage will improve. 5% dodge = 1 out of 20 yellow attacks will be dodged. 4% dodge = 1 out of 25 yellow attacks will be dodged. Getting 20 points in expertise will result in a 5% increase in yellow hits (not crits). |
What part of what i said is wrong? The GM posted stating that weapon mastery will not have expertise in the talent! I know 1 poin of expertise converts to -0.25% dodge/parry but the point is weapon mastery wil not have expertise according to the blue post, he stated it will give flat out -4% chance to dodge when they update the PTR.
It has expertise, i.e. 4 points of it (2 per talent point). 4 points will be 1% dodge reduce.
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Originally Posted by Bronwyn
It has expertise, i.e. 4 points of it (2 per talent point). 4 points will be 1% dodge reduce.
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Originally Posted by Bronwyn
It has expertise, i.e. 4 points of it (2 per talent point). 4 points will be 1% dodge reduce.
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We know what it says now in PTR the point is the blue said it is going to be a flat out -4% dodge not expertise.
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Originally Posted by Bronwyn
I just compared whirlwind live/ptr.
I used BS as the only buff and the same gear. Mobs were Apexis Flayers in Blade's Edge. OH-Weapon: Rising Tide LIVE: Average hit: 400, Average crit: 850 PTR: Average hit: 680, Average crit: 1500 Depending on your crit chance, this will give you appr. 430 more damage per whirlwind (40% crit assumed). If we assume optimal whirlwind usage and 1/2 imp. whirlwind, you will get an increase of 430/9 dps = +48 DPS or (2/2 imp. ww) 430/8 = +54 DPS. How does that compare to the loss of DW? DW (assuming you use it whenever it's ready, ignoring optimized usage with heroism or in execute range) will be up 1/6 of the time, thus increasing your dps by 3,33%. 1000 DPS ---> + 33 DPS 1500 DPS ---> + 50 DPS So, according to my initial tests, you need 1500 DPS in every Deathwish phase to achieve a dps boost similar to the new whirlwind. Apparently, the change wasn't too bad, especially if you consider the following aspects: Whirlwind has too yellow attacks --> more flurry uptime + improved proc chance Whirlwind as yellow damage profits immensely from expertise As soon as there is more than one mob to fight, the combination of ss + ww is extremely powerful Even though I was very squeamish about loosing DW at first, it seems to be a buff in the end. Combined with the -10% threat it definitely is. |
As you yourself have stated, ignoring optimized DW usage, the results yield such-and-such. But from a real world perspective, who doesn't optimize DW usage? I have a macro that pops troll zerk, DW, BL brooch, and haste pot simultaneously (this is usually timed about when the enh sham burns his Drums as well, but always timed so I get the full duration's benefit.). And then obviously I've got Recklessness to add to the mix for the 20% burn. I'd assume any fury warrior worth their salt has a similar or superior DW macro/usage. With the exception of the brooch, I can still pop all the same goodies and none benefits WW not in the slightest (Recklessness would make 2? WW's guaranteed crits).
The numbers I'm plugging into the spreadsheet coupled with the new changes yield very similar results as what I'm seeing now. When/if the SS/DW change goes live, it might very well be a L2P situation where styles must adjust to incorporate the changes, but I remain skeptical on the trade off we've received. It's like you've taken away the teddy bear I've gone to sleep with since birth, handed me a rag doll, and are trying to convince me that the rag doll is just as good.
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Originally Posted by Gruntle
You need to take the extra rage generated by DW into account to get the correct damage boost. Using the dps spreadsheet i lose about 5% dps when I remove Deathwish from my talents. Updating the spreadsheet to add the OH damage to WW (not sure exactly how it will work, I just add the average OH hit to the WW damage) I get a total dps decrease of 2.8%.
Weapon expertise talent might make this go away, but I can't really find any talent points to put in it. The whirlwind calculation was done with a dagger as OH, with a slow OH the damage will be bigger (*sadface, I like my fast weapons, why force us even more into using slow...). I'm not too worried about the changes, the whirlwind change might very well make up for losing DW. You will not be able to pop DW (due to missing rage, wanting to "save" DW for later or just being unfocused) at every single cd, making the buff worse. |
Don't forget that daggers are normalized for 1.7 instead of 2.4 for instant attacks. Which will widen the gap between a fast OH dagger and a slow non dagger OH.
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Originally Posted by Mem
Don't forget that daggers are normalized for 1.7 instead of 2.4 for instant attacks. Which will widen the gap between a fast OH dagger and a slow non dagger OH.
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Btw, the calculations I made of WW damage was completely wrong (didn't include normalized AP damage from OH). With a 1.8 sec dagger you will lose less than 1% dps with the DW+WW change combined (assuming DW to be up 1/6 of the time but without any stacking of effects). Changing my Emerald ripper OH to Spiteblade (2.7 sec) results in a net dps increase.
It's almost impossible to model Deathwish as anything else than "up for 1/6 of the time". It may be possible that modeling it in this way gives less damage than reality due to the stacking effect of different buffs, but there is no way to know short of checking combat logs. However, if you wait to trigger DW until you have other buffs ready you're also losing dps due to not using it 1/6 of the time.
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Originally Posted by Gruntle
However, if you wait to trigger DW until you have other buffs ready you're also losing dps due to not using it 1/6 of the time.
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What are you on about? "Bot style play"? Really don't understand what point you're trying to make here.
I'm only talking about how to model Deathwish. People are claiming anything between 1 to 20 % dps increase from Deathwish alone, there is no way to know until someone has actually checked the logs (good if you do that, would be interested in the results).
The way most people are modeling Deathwish is to assume that the talent point gives you a 20% damage increase 1/6th of the time, i.e. a 3.33% damage increase (in spreadsheets one can also include the effect of extra rage income -> more heroic strikes, which can yield a total dps increase of about 5% for Deathwish, depending on gear setup). What I meant was just that if you compare a standard model of Deathwish being up 1/6th of the time to a "model" where it's triggered at the same time as other buffs, you cannot assume that it's up the same amount of time.
I know that the effect of Deathwish will be a lot greater when you have other buffs active, but I'm not certain that it's worth "saving" Deathwish to these occasions. If you can time all the effects to be active at the same time without losing any waiting time you should of course do so. In some cases it's obviously easy to do it (e.g. <20% DW+Recklessness) and of course I do that.
I'm only talking about how to model Deathwish. People are claiming anything between 1 to 20 % dps increase from Deathwish alone, there is no way to know until someone has actually checked the logs (good if you do that, would be interested in the results).
The way most people are modeling Deathwish is to assume that the talent point gives you a 20% damage increase 1/6th of the time, i.e. a 3.33% damage increase (in spreadsheets one can also include the effect of extra rage income -> more heroic strikes, which can yield a total dps increase of about 5% for Deathwish, depending on gear setup). What I meant was just that if you compare a standard model of Deathwish being up 1/6th of the time to a "model" where it's triggered at the same time as other buffs, you cannot assume that it's up the same amount of time.
I know that the effect of Deathwish will be a lot greater when you have other buffs active, but I'm not certain that it's worth "saving" Deathwish to these occasions. If you can time all the effects to be active at the same time without losing any waiting time you should of course do so. In some cases it's obviously easy to do it (e.g. <20% DW+Recklessness) and of course I do that.
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Originally Posted by Gruntle
It's almost impossible to model Deathwish as anything else than "up for 1/6 of the time". It may be possible that modeling it in this way gives less damage than reality due to the stacking effect of different buffs, but there is no way to know short of checking combat logs. However, if you wait to trigger DW until you have other buffs ready you're also losing dps due to not using it 1/6 of the time.
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It's those 7 minute+ fights that are tricky, because you kick yourself for not having DW up that 3rd time, or waiting because you overestimated your normal raid DPS. It just takes experience and a good understanding of the encounter, and your raid's normal DPS to maximize DW's potential.
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Originally Posted by Bronwyn
Getting 20 points in expertise will result in a 5% increase in yellow hits (not crits).
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Originally Posted by Xoya
Actually, this is somewhat incorrect. Yellow attacks use a two-roll attack table, so the 20 points in expertise will actually give you a greater than 5% increase in yellow hits (damage-wise) because those hits can then be translated into crits. In addition, 20 points in expertise will also result in 5% increase in white hits, though I imagine you meant that for a given, but in case anyone saw just that line I felt I should add some clarification.
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Also - do we have defintive info on how the "non-dodges" will be misses or hits?
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Originally Posted by Xoya
Actually, this is somewhat incorrect. Yellow attacks use a two-roll attack table, so the 20 points in expertise will actually give you a greater than 5% increase in yellow hits (damage-wise) because those hits can then be translated into crits. In addition, 20 points in expertise will also result in 5% increase in white hits, though I imagine you meant that for a given, but in case anyone saw just that line I felt I should add some clarification.
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Deathwish is far more than a 3.33% increase no matter how you look at it, even if you only get 2 deathwish in a 7 minute fight. The ability of an 'on demand' skill that you can time with other cooldowns far outweigh a small increase on whirlwind damage. Some of us warriors cannot choose to use a slow offhand, and from the numbers posted, whirlwind is still last in the rotation, so you still will clip seconds off it keeping bloodthirst on priority in real world situations.
I read into this a little while ago. There was proof that special attacks were two tables, as people would come up with results that were impossible under one table. I have yet to see any explaination on the layout or implications of the table however.
Here is the thread
http://elitistjerks.com/f33/t9104-backstab_two_rolls/
So unless either debuffs like the one used to test work in a way we dont know, or its 2 tables. I suppose things may have changed but I havent seen any recent testing either. I would like to test it for a warrior but not sure how yet.
Here is the thread
http://elitistjerks.com/f33/t9104-backstab_two_rolls/
So unless either debuffs like the one used to test work in a way we dont know, or its 2 tables. I suppose things may have changed but I havent seen any recent testing either. I would like to test it for a warrior but not sure how yet.
I'm opposed to the DW/SS swap. It doesn't make much sense to me. If you were to rate which spec does it's job the best I would rank warrior specs the following:
1. Arms For PVP. Arms warriors are the most centrally important to PVP. It's not even close.
2. Prot Warriors for Tanking. Prot warriors have fair competition for tanking these days but they bring certain unique abilities that make them prefered or required for certain encounters.
3. Fury warriors for PVE DPS. Fury warriors fair well but other than having a part time tank, fury warriors can be replaced with prot warriors BSing the rogues or another rogue. Our strength comes from offtanking trash well when needed (which rogues can't do) and DPSing well (which prot warriors don't do too well).
If you take from the Fury warriors and give to the Arms warriors, it makes no sense. PVP warriors have more skill points to play with so they are buffed for PVP further. Fury warriors are more or less stuck. They can go 2hand for DPS or see what they can squeeze out of the Fury tree knowing that they would likely serve the raid better with BF.
Currently the 17/44 build has no spare points. Any new skill in Fury requires losing another DPS skill. If the Fury tree picks up more skills but doesn't optimize any, you get to the point of dropping 14 points out of Arms to pick up 2-3 more points in Fury. Now you have 10 filler skill points.
Here is most of a post I wrote about the value of DW for raid DPS:
The correct use of cooldowns in the game is not simply to click it every time it's up and continue as usual. Lets say you have 1000 dps which follows roughly a 600 white/400 yellow split. WW is at best 5% of your total damage (50 dps).
Let's say you are fighting any of the first 3 Hyjal bosses. These are essentially the pinnacle of DW usage. They are fights that last about 3-4 minutes and allow for 2 uses of deathwish.
10-15 seconds into the fight with the tanking having gained aggro with their abilities, some hunter MD help, and some PoMs, you pop DW number one. During DW, you pop a haste pot. That's 25% increased attack speed. Now, most of the time, you have flurry up which is a base 25% haste. 25% more haste is in fact only an increase of 20% in number of attacks expected. Over the course of the fight you average 600 white dps. 20% more than this is 120 dps. However, the DW allows more offhand damage and increases HS spam which increases your dps further. I'm not going to quantify this. Instead, I am going to use the 25% (150dps) increase for the haste pot during it's 15 seconds. So now you have 750 base DPS for 15 seconds and 600 base dps for 15 seconds. That's 675 average DPS for 30 seconds. Apply DW and that's 810 DPS for 30 seconds. Egad, that's a 35% increase in DPS by stacking 2 buffs. Haste pot alone is only a 25% increase for half the time (12.5% averaged over 30 seconds). Deathwish has amplified the haste post so that 12.5+20 becomes 35! Not to mention, your yellow dps has gone from 400 to 480 dps. 1290 dps out of a 1000 dps player for 30 seconds. How is this black magic possible? Just thank Levitra I guess. If you don't understand that bit, don't both reading further.
That's just the first deathwish. We'll call that baby deathwish. Now comes the 19% real deathwish. Haste pot, bloodlust/heroism, reckless, deathwish. Grand daddy deathwish. This is Rambo with his M16 mowing people down in front of the helicopter. This is fun stuff. Now, you have 600 white DPS hasted by 30% for 30 seconds, 25% more for 15 seconds, everything crits for 15 seconds, and you have deathwish. 600 white dps becomes 780/930 (no haste pot, haste pot). During the haste pot, reckless takes you from 930 dps:
Say you hit 85% of that time with 24% glancings (.75 damage) and 35% crits (doubles) for expected weapon damage of 1.14 x base. Under reckless, all these go to 1.4 x base (your still miss and glance). That's a ratio of 1.4/1.14 = 1.228 or 930 dps x 1.228 = 1142.
Heck, lets toss deathwish on there: 1370 white DPS. So, 1370 white DPS for 15 seconds with deathwish (1142 without) with 936 unrecklessed/780 without deathwish the other 15 seconds.
Lets say you normally do 1000 yellow execute spam DPS. (say 2200 under reckless). So you add deathwish to the mix and you get 20% more rage for harder executes which hit 20% harder again. You get deathwish stacking on deathwish. The return on execute is not linear damage/rage but I'll assume it is for comparison. For 15 seconds, you have 936 DW DPS versus 780 without for a rage factor of 1.2. Execute spam goes from 1000 to 1200 because of extra rage. No add DW and execute goes to 1440. This is a high number but during execute spam do not think that DW adds less than 30% damage. During the second half, your 2200 goes to 3168. Total DPS without DW: 2561, with 3379 with.
So now you have 210 seconds of a boss fight where for 138 seconds you do 1000 dps. For 30 seconds you could have deathwish. For 42 seconds, you execute and for 30 of those seconds you could have deathwish.
Without deathwish: 264030 damage
With deathwish: 297270 damage
So in a fight like this Deathwish provides 10% + damage.
I'm not going to say my math is great. I wrote this as quickly as possible and did not pile up as many trinkets/procs as possible. You can make a case for it being closer or farther apart. Under no circumstance is 3% an appropriate approximation of deathwish increasing DPS. And if you think 1 offhand hit every 9 seconds is going to do 30k damage in a 3.5 minute fight, well I don't know what to tell you.
1. Arms For PVP. Arms warriors are the most centrally important to PVP. It's not even close.
2. Prot Warriors for Tanking. Prot warriors have fair competition for tanking these days but they bring certain unique abilities that make them prefered or required for certain encounters.
3. Fury warriors for PVE DPS. Fury warriors fair well but other than having a part time tank, fury warriors can be replaced with prot warriors BSing the rogues or another rogue. Our strength comes from offtanking trash well when needed (which rogues can't do) and DPSing well (which prot warriors don't do too well).
If you take from the Fury warriors and give to the Arms warriors, it makes no sense. PVP warriors have more skill points to play with so they are buffed for PVP further. Fury warriors are more or less stuck. They can go 2hand for DPS or see what they can squeeze out of the Fury tree knowing that they would likely serve the raid better with BF.
Currently the 17/44 build has no spare points. Any new skill in Fury requires losing another DPS skill. If the Fury tree picks up more skills but doesn't optimize any, you get to the point of dropping 14 points out of Arms to pick up 2-3 more points in Fury. Now you have 10 filler skill points.
Here is most of a post I wrote about the value of DW for raid DPS:
The correct use of cooldowns in the game is not simply to click it every time it's up and continue as usual. Lets say you have 1000 dps which follows roughly a 600 white/400 yellow split. WW is at best 5% of your total damage (50 dps).
Let's say you are fighting any of the first 3 Hyjal bosses. These are essentially the pinnacle of DW usage. They are fights that last about 3-4 minutes and allow for 2 uses of deathwish.
10-15 seconds into the fight with the tanking having gained aggro with their abilities, some hunter MD help, and some PoMs, you pop DW number one. During DW, you pop a haste pot. That's 25% increased attack speed. Now, most of the time, you have flurry up which is a base 25% haste. 25% more haste is in fact only an increase of 20% in number of attacks expected. Over the course of the fight you average 600 white dps. 20% more than this is 120 dps. However, the DW allows more offhand damage and increases HS spam which increases your dps further. I'm not going to quantify this. Instead, I am going to use the 25% (150dps) increase for the haste pot during it's 15 seconds. So now you have 750 base DPS for 15 seconds and 600 base dps for 15 seconds. That's 675 average DPS for 30 seconds. Apply DW and that's 810 DPS for 30 seconds. Egad, that's a 35% increase in DPS by stacking 2 buffs. Haste pot alone is only a 25% increase for half the time (12.5% averaged over 30 seconds). Deathwish has amplified the haste post so that 12.5+20 becomes 35! Not to mention, your yellow dps has gone from 400 to 480 dps. 1290 dps out of a 1000 dps player for 30 seconds. How is this black magic possible? Just thank Levitra I guess. If you don't understand that bit, don't both reading further.
That's just the first deathwish. We'll call that baby deathwish. Now comes the 19% real deathwish. Haste pot, bloodlust/heroism, reckless, deathwish. Grand daddy deathwish. This is Rambo with his M16 mowing people down in front of the helicopter. This is fun stuff. Now, you have 600 white DPS hasted by 30% for 30 seconds, 25% more for 15 seconds, everything crits for 15 seconds, and you have deathwish. 600 white dps becomes 780/930 (no haste pot, haste pot). During the haste pot, reckless takes you from 930 dps:
Say you hit 85% of that time with 24% glancings (.75 damage) and 35% crits (doubles) for expected weapon damage of 1.14 x base. Under reckless, all these go to 1.4 x base (your still miss and glance). That's a ratio of 1.4/1.14 = 1.228 or 930 dps x 1.228 = 1142.
Heck, lets toss deathwish on there: 1370 white DPS. So, 1370 white DPS for 15 seconds with deathwish (1142 without) with 936 unrecklessed/780 without deathwish the other 15 seconds.
Lets say you normally do 1000 yellow execute spam DPS. (say 2200 under reckless). So you add deathwish to the mix and you get 20% more rage for harder executes which hit 20% harder again. You get deathwish stacking on deathwish. The return on execute is not linear damage/rage but I'll assume it is for comparison. For 15 seconds, you have 936 DW DPS versus 780 without for a rage factor of 1.2. Execute spam goes from 1000 to 1200 because of extra rage. No add DW and execute goes to 1440. This is a high number but during execute spam do not think that DW adds less than 30% damage. During the second half, your 2200 goes to 3168. Total DPS without DW: 2561, with 3379 with.
So now you have 210 seconds of a boss fight where for 138 seconds you do 1000 dps. For 30 seconds you could have deathwish. For 42 seconds, you execute and for 30 of those seconds you could have deathwish.
Without deathwish: 264030 damage
With deathwish: 297270 damage
So in a fight like this Deathwish provides 10% + damage.
I'm not going to say my math is great. I wrote this as quickly as possible and did not pile up as many trinkets/procs as possible. You can make a case for it being closer or farther apart. Under no circumstance is 3% an appropriate approximation of deathwish increasing DPS. And if you think 1 offhand hit every 9 seconds is going to do 30k damage in a 3.5 minute fight, well I don't know what to tell you.
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Originally Posted by Darkrenown
A PPM just means the % chance to proc is based on the weapon speed. More instants = more procs.
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That means no matter what your weapon speed is, as long as it is quicker than 1 swing/minute, you will always get 1 proc per minute.
It doesn't matter how many instants you use, given it 10 or 30, the proc will always be 1 proc per minute.
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Originally Posted by lazerpewpew
Let's assume that the proc happens 1 PPM.
That means no matter what your weapon speed is, as long as it is quicker than 1 swing/minute, you will always get 1 proc per minute. It doesn't matter how many instants you use, given it 10 or 30, the proc will always be 1 proc per minute. |
No, that does seem incorrect then. From what I gather, procs are coded so that under autoattack they average X procs per minute. This is based on weapon speed. A 3 second weapon swings 20 times in a minute so a 1 ppm enchant converts to a 5% chance on hit. A 2 ppm would be 10%. A 1ppm on a 6 second weapon would be 10%. This mates up with getting double procs yet not devaluing an enchant on a slow weapon by having straight %based procs. This conversion, however, allows for additional moves above and beyond your autoattack to generate more procs. If you go out and test this, you will find that cycling instants has a fairly clear effect on the actual amount of procs you get. Some enchants wind up with hidden cooldowns to control the rate at which the PPM can be raised with faster casts. If it was controlled in the way in which you suggest, spell surge would not need a hidden cooldown on it.
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Originally Posted by lazerpewpew
Let's assume that the proc happens 1 PPM.
That means no matter what your weapon speed is, as long as it is quicker than 1 swing/minute, you will always get 1 proc per minute. It doesn't matter how many instants you use, given it 10 or 30, the proc will always be 1 proc per minute. |
Death Wish move, "explained":
- Bornakk
WoW Forums -> Why was Deathwish moved to Arms?
| Some warriors felt forced to pickup certain talents and this left them with few options. This change could allow people in these situations to have some extra options while the weapon expertise and threat reduction improvements to the deep end of the fury tree allow for more consistent sustained damage. |
WoW Forums -> Why was Deathwish moved to Arms?
And yet, my prediction is that 33/28 is still going to be the cookie cutter Arms PvP spec.
With any luck, Blizzard will notice. "Hey, look, people still aren't speccing past second wind or blood frenzy in arms, maybe we should do something about 35+ Arms instead."
It's not arms that has a problem with lack of options. It's fury. As has been said before, 17/44/0 has no room to change without breaking the build. I have no idea where I'm going to get the points for Weapon Mastery from (and I'm going to find a way to take it, -4% dodge is huge).
I never thought I'd be seriously considering a slam build because it'll help the raid more, but if the numbers I've seen about what this change means are accurate, it may be hard to justify staying DW Fury, as much as I like the spec and play style.
With any luck, Blizzard will notice. "Hey, look, people still aren't speccing past second wind or blood frenzy in arms, maybe we should do something about 35+ Arms instead."
It's not arms that has a problem with lack of options. It's fury. As has been said before, 17/44/0 has no room to change without breaking the build. I have no idea where I'm going to get the points for Weapon Mastery from (and I'm going to find a way to take it, -4% dodge is huge).
I never thought I'd be seriously considering a slam build because it'll help the raid more, but if the numbers I've seen about what this change means are accurate, it may be hard to justify staying DW Fury, as much as I like the spec and play style.
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Originally Posted by Alhena
And yet, my prediction is that 33/28 is still going to be the cookie cutter Arms PvP spec.
With any luck, Blizzard will notice. "Hey, look, people still aren't speccing past second wind or blood frenzy in arms, maybe we should do something about 35+ Arms instead." It's not arms that has a problem with lack of options. It's fury. As has been said before, 17/44/0 has no room to change without breaking the build. I have no idea where I'm going to get the points for Weapon Mastery from (and I'm going to find a way to take it, -4% dodge is huge). |
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Originally Posted by Hozz
They need to unlink Enrage and Flurry. Enrage in the PVE DPS tree is a blackhole for talent points. If they should have moved anything, they should have moved this.
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Originally Posted by Hozz
They need to unlink Enrage and Flurry. Enrage in the PVE DPS tree is a blackhole for talent points. If they should have moved anything, they should have moved this.
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Originally Posted by Adrammelech
Or if their issue is MS warriors getting flurry (this formed the cornerstone of the TM move as I recall) they need to link it to Dual Wield spec instead of enrage.
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Originally Posted by lazerpewpew
Let's assume that the proc happens 1 PPM.
That means no matter what your weapon speed is, as long as it is quicker than 1 swing/minute, you will always get 1 proc per minute. It doesn't matter how many instants you use, given it 10 or 30, the proc will always be 1 proc per minute. |
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Originally Posted by Grymm
I'm opposed to the DW/SS swap. It doesn't make much sense to me. If you were to rate which spec does it's job the best I would rank warrior specs the following:
*snip* |
I don't want to lose Deathwish.
As to what talent to scrap to get Weapon Expertise I think the best option is probably Imp. Execute. Not really easy to figure out how important this talent is though, I guess it depends a lot on whether the talent is what makes the difference bewteen Executes every gcd and not.
Question:
If weapon mastery gets changed to -4% dodge, is impale still worth it or would a heavy fury spec with imp execute, weapon mastery and imp WW provide more single target dps?
If weapon mastery gets changed to -4% dodge, is impale still worth it or would a heavy fury spec with imp execute, weapon mastery and imp WW provide more single target dps?
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Originally Posted by lazerpewpew
Let's assume that the proc happens 1 PPM.
That means no matter what your weapon speed is, as long as it is quicker than 1 swing/minute, you will always get 1 proc per minute. It doesn't matter how many instants you use, given it 10 or 30, the proc will always be 1 proc per minute. |
1. There's internal cooldown on enchant procs. We know this isn't true as they can refresh themselves.
or
2. Instants can't proc enchants. Known to be false since you can easily see procs happening at the same time as an instant some time after an auto attack witha slow weapon.
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Originally Posted by Fogbug
By all appearances this is Blizzard trying to find a way to make Endless Rage/Imp MS more attractive and not Blizzard trying to make arms specs worse in general
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Is it really making it that attractive to anyone? What has changed with Imp MS and ER that I have missed? What new benefits has it picked up? If they wanted to accomplish that, they would have fixed 33+ in the Arms tree. If anything they are not trying to fix a problem, they are just trying to force you out of the best PvP cookie cutter. So in essence they are eliminating what they consider a problem with the class by introducing a few more. I've never understood the backwards logic they have with fixing our class.
And as you said, the real reason warriors go mid fury for PvP is Enrage. Deathwish is good in PvP but I could live without that but not Enrage. In PvE it would be just the opposite.
This change is by far the most odd I've seen from Bliz since my first patch of 1.2. We've asked for Enrage to be moved to Arms for the last few years and never once did anyone ask for a change to SS or DW.
Edited onPatch 2.2.3
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Originally Posted by D4vE
Question:
If weapon mastery gets changed to -4% dodge, is impale still worth it or would a heavy fury spec with imp execute, weapon mastery and imp WW provide more single target dps? |
Last edited by Birdemani : 10/15/07 at 9:12 PM.
Edited onPatch 2.2.3
A lot of people are also treating fights as a static thing. How many fights have built in design to be burst oriented? How many fights these days do you really hit the mob for an unchanging amount (no modifiers) from 100% down to 0% with nothing interrupting you?
We are moving further and further away from pure tank and spank, you don't have 100% dps time for an equivelent amount. Forget DPS alone, look at the nerf from the perspective of beating encounters also. How important do you find Deathwish to be when AoEing Kael weapons, executing trapped Illidan, burning down the last percentages of a boss with a health point enrage, or when you FINALLY get go all out on Bloodboil for those precious 30 seconds. Let alone the fights with DPS dead time because it's either kited or is immune or we're in a "cutscene'/transition" and what have you.
Encounters have a lot of 'dead' time that make DW more valuable than what modeling it would show you (stacking it with other cooldowns aside - and yes stacking is indeed obvious), a limited time increase coupled with another limited time increases, the few that say "it'd be the same if you use deathwish at 30% or use it at 19% with heroism/reck/haste pot" are completely out of it.
These are things a lot of posts don't take into account - burst damage like Deathwish being on demand while taking more damage is in large part of what Fury is about, same line of Recklessness.
On the net, we probably didn't lose over much or gain over much for most encounters when all the changes are tallied (if you were really threat capped, you gained, without a doubt), but this change really irks me for reasons beyond statistics. All for a talent that has been rehashed over and over, and most people still won't take. The sinister side of me just leads me to think they should transfer all the popular talents, protection included over to arms. If you have nothing else to take you may indeed take a talent you don't really need - that seems to be the logic here for a 41 point deep talent.
We are moving further and further away from pure tank and spank, you don't have 100% dps time for an equivelent amount. Forget DPS alone, look at the nerf from the perspective of beating encounters also. How important do you find Deathwish to be when AoEing Kael weapons, executing trapped Illidan, burning down the last percentages of a boss with a health point enrage, or when you FINALLY get go all out on Bloodboil for those precious 30 seconds. Let alone the fights with DPS dead time because it's either kited or is immune or we're in a "cutscene'/transition" and what have you.
Encounters have a lot of 'dead' time that make DW more valuable than what modeling it would show you (stacking it with other cooldowns aside - and yes stacking is indeed obvious), a limited time increase coupled with another limited time increases, the few that say "it'd be the same if you use deathwish at 30% or use it at 19% with heroism/reck/haste pot" are completely out of it.
These are things a lot of posts don't take into account - burst damage like Deathwish being on demand while taking more damage is in large part of what Fury is about, same line of Recklessness.
On the net, we probably didn't lose over much or gain over much for most encounters when all the changes are tallied (if you were really threat capped, you gained, without a doubt), but this change really irks me for reasons beyond statistics. All for a talent that has been rehashed over and over, and most people still won't take. The sinister side of me just leads me to think they should transfer all the popular talents, protection included over to arms. If you have nothing else to take you may indeed take a talent you don't really need - that seems to be the logic here for a 41 point deep talent.
Last edited by Enkidu : 10/15/07 at 9:05 PM.
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Originally Posted by Bronwyn
It has expertise, i.e. 4 points of it (2 per talent point). 4 points will be 1% dodge reduce.
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Originally Posted by tib
Kalgan recently posted on US forums stating Weapon Mastery will be changed to a flat -4% dodge once moved to fury tree.
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Expertise would really be a must is you consider its gear budget equivelent, improved whirlwind you would have to look into cycles first to see how much of a gain the second point really is, but I don't think it'd be that siginifcant.
What you mostly gain by not taking Impale is rather the points you free out of the arms tree for other things, for example TM you could say. Otherwise just take the points out of precisions, well geared fury has sickly high hit anyway and it is a cheap stat in the item budget. Impale is near a 4% DPS increase off the top of my head for the typical fury warrior.
What you mostly gain by not taking Impale is rather the points you free out of the arms tree for other things, for example TM you could say. Otherwise just take the points out of precisions, well geared fury has sickly high hit anyway and it is a cheap stat in the item budget. Impale is near a 4% DPS increase off the top of my head for the typical fury warrior.
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Originally Posted by Fogbug
Hey now, that would be a pretty sizable nerf. By all appearances this is Blizzard trying to find a way to make Endless Rage/Imp MS more attractive and not Blizzard trying to make arms specs worse in general
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I still don't get it. If Weapon Mastery adds -4% to dodge, then [Bracers of the Ancient Phalanx] and the 22 expertise should be legendary.
Has there been confirmation that this is indeed -4% dodge or could K have made a mistake?
Has there been confirmation that this is indeed -4% dodge or could K have made a mistake?
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Originally Posted by Randor
I still don't get it. If Weapon Mastery adds -4% to dodge, then [Bracers of the Ancient Phalanx] and the 22 expertise should be legendary.
Has there been confirmation that this is indeed -4% dodge or could K have made a mistake? |
Approximately 4 rating = 1 point for expertise, those bracers are -1% dodge/parry, why would they be legendary?
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Originally Posted by Nite_Moogle
The talent is being modified to remove 1% dodge per rank, not to grant enough expertise to do it. It will not have anything to do with expertise at all.
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That said, I was in ZA last night and missed DW a little bit but I was surprised how I still generated a ton of threat. I guess I expected more but even with Salvation and Subtlety, I was pulling agro.
I read into this a little while ago. There was proof that special attacks were two tables, as people would come up with results that were impossible under one table. I have yet to see any explaination on the layout or implications of the table however.
Here is the thread
http://elitistjerks.com/f33/t9104-backstab_two_rolls/
So unless either debuffs like the one used to test work in a way we dont know, or its 2 tables. I suppose things may have changed but I havent seen any recent testing either. I would like to test it for a warrior but not sure how yet.
Here is the thread
http://elitistjerks.com/f33/t9104-backstab_two_rolls/
So unless either debuffs like the one used to test work in a way we dont know, or its 2 tables. I suppose things may have changed but I havent seen any recent testing either. I would like to test it for a warrior but not sure how yet.
I'm opposed to the DW/SS swap. It doesn't make much sense to me. If you were to rate which spec does it's job the best I would rank warrior specs the following:
1. Arms For PVP. Arms warriors are the most centrally important to PVP. It's not even close.
2. Prot Warriors for Tanking. Prot warriors have fair competition for tanking these days but they bring certain unique abilities that make them prefered or required for certain encounters.
3. Fury warriors for PVE DPS. Fury warriors fair well but other than having a part time tank, fury warriors can be replaced with prot warriors BSing the rogues or another rogue. Our strength comes from offtanking trash well when needed (which rogues can't do) and DPSing well (which prot warriors don't do too well).
If you take from the Fury warriors and give to the Arms warriors, it makes no sense. PVP warriors have more skill points to play with so they are buffed for PVP further. Fury warriors are more or less stuck. They can go 2hand for DPS or see what they can squeeze out of the Fury tree knowing that they would likely serve the raid better with BF.
Currently the 17/44 build has no spare points. Any new skill in Fury requires losing another DPS skill. If the Fury tree picks up more skills but doesn't optimize any, you get to the point of dropping 14 points out of Arms to pick up 2-3 more points in Fury. Now you have 10 filler skill points.
Here is most of a post I wrote about the value of DW for raid DPS:
The correct use of cooldowns in the game is not simply to click it every time it's up and continue as usual. Lets say you have 1000 dps which follows roughly a 600 white/400 yellow split. WW is at best 5% of your total damage (50 dps).
Let's say you are fighting any of the first 3 Hyjal bosses. These are essentially the pinnacle of DW usage. They are fights that last about 3-4 minutes and allow for 2 uses of deathwish.
10-15 seconds into the fight with the tanking having gained aggro with their abilities, some hunter MD help, and some PoMs, you pop DW number one. During DW, you pop a haste pot. That's 25% increased attack speed. Now, most of the time, you have flurry up which is a base 25% haste. 25% more haste is in fact only an increase of 20% in number of attacks expected. Over the course of the fight you average 600 white dps. 20% more than this is 120 dps. However, the DW allows more offhand damage and increases HS spam which increases your dps further. I'm not going to quantify this. Instead, I am going to use the 25% (150dps) increase for the haste pot during it's 15 seconds. So now you have 750 base DPS for 15 seconds and 600 base dps for 15 seconds. That's 675 average DPS for 30 seconds. Apply DW and that's 810 DPS for 30 seconds. Egad, that's a 35% increase in DPS by stacking 2 buffs. Haste pot alone is only a 25% increase for half the time (12.5% averaged over 30 seconds). Deathwish has amplified the haste post so that 12.5+20 becomes 35! Not to mention, your yellow dps has gone from 400 to 480 dps. 1290 dps out of a 1000 dps player for 30 seconds. How is this black magic possible? Just thank Levitra I guess. If you don't understand that bit, don't both reading further.
That's just the first deathwish. We'll call that baby deathwish. Now comes the 19% real deathwish. Haste pot, bloodlust/heroism, reckless, deathwish. Grand daddy deathwish. This is Rambo with his M16 mowing people down in front of the helicopter. This is fun stuff. Now, you have 600 white DPS hasted by 30% for 30 seconds, 25% more for 15 seconds, everything crits for 15 seconds, and you have deathwish. 600 white dps becomes 780/930 (no haste pot, haste pot). During the haste pot, reckless takes you from 930 dps:
Say you hit 85% of that time with 24% glancings (.75 damage) and 35% crits (doubles) for expected weapon damage of 1.14 x base. Under reckless, all these go to 1.4 x base (your still miss and glance). That's a ratio of 1.4/1.14 = 1.228 or 930 dps x 1.228 = 1142.
Heck, lets toss deathwish on there: 1370 white DPS. So, 1370 white DPS for 15 seconds with deathwish (1142 without) with 936 unrecklessed/780 without deathwish the other 15 seconds.
Lets say you normally do 1000 yellow execute spam DPS. (say 2200 under reckless). So you add deathwish to the mix and you get 20% more rage for harder executes which hit 20% harder again. You get deathwish stacking on deathwish. The return on execute is not linear damage/rage but I'll assume it is for comparison. For 15 seconds, you have 936 DW DPS versus 780 without for a rage factor of 1.2. Execute spam goes from 1000 to 1200 because of extra rage. No add DW and execute goes to 1440. This is a high number but during execute spam do not think that DW adds less than 30% damage. During the second half, your 2200 goes to 3168. Total DPS without DW: 2561, with 3379 with.
So now you have 210 seconds of a boss fight where for 138 seconds you do 1000 dps. For 30 seconds you could have deathwish. For 42 seconds, you execute and for 30 of those seconds you could have deathwish.
Without deathwish: 264030 damage
With deathwish: 297270 damage
So in a fight like this Deathwish provides 10% + damage.
I'm not going to say my math is great. I wrote this as quickly as possible and did not pile up as many trinkets/procs as possible. You can make a case for it being closer or farther apart. Under no circumstance is 3% an appropriate approximation of deathwish increasing DPS. And if you think 1 offhand hit every 9 seconds is going to do 30k damage in a 3.5 minute fight, well I don't know what to tell you.
1. Arms For PVP. Arms warriors are the most centrally important to PVP. It's not even close.
2. Prot Warriors for Tanking. Prot warriors have fair competition for tanking these days but they bring certain unique abilities that make them prefered or required for certain encounters.
3. Fury warriors for PVE DPS. Fury warriors fair well but other than having a part time tank, fury warriors can be replaced with prot warriors BSing the rogues or another rogue. Our strength comes from offtanking trash well when needed (which rogues can't do) and DPSing well (which prot warriors don't do too well).
If you take from the Fury warriors and give to the Arms warriors, it makes no sense. PVP warriors have more skill points to play with so they are buffed for PVP further. Fury warriors are more or less stuck. They can go 2hand for DPS or see what they can squeeze out of the Fury tree knowing that they would likely serve the raid better with BF.
Currently the 17/44 build has no spare points. Any new skill in Fury requires losing another DPS skill. If the Fury tree picks up more skills but doesn't optimize any, you get to the point of dropping 14 points out of Arms to pick up 2-3 more points in Fury. Now you have 10 filler skill points.
Here is most of a post I wrote about the value of DW for raid DPS:
The correct use of cooldowns in the game is not simply to click it every time it's up and continue as usual. Lets say you have 1000 dps which follows roughly a 600 white/400 yellow split. WW is at best 5% of your total damage (50 dps).
Let's say you are fighting any of the first 3 Hyjal bosses. These are essentially the pinnacle of DW usage. They are fights that last about 3-4 minutes and allow for 2 uses of deathwish.
10-15 seconds into the fight with the tanking having gained aggro with their abilities, some hunter MD help, and some PoMs, you pop DW number one. During DW, you pop a haste pot. That's 25% increased attack speed. Now, most of the time, you have flurry up which is a base 25% haste. 25% more haste is in fact only an increase of 20% in number of attacks expected. Over the course of the fight you average 600 white dps. 20% more than this is 120 dps. However, the DW allows more offhand damage and increases HS spam which increases your dps further. I'm not going to quantify this. Instead, I am going to use the 25% (150dps) increase for the haste pot during it's 15 seconds. So now you have 750 base DPS for 15 seconds and 600 base dps for 15 seconds. That's 675 average DPS for 30 seconds. Apply DW and that's 810 DPS for 30 seconds. Egad, that's a 35% increase in DPS by stacking 2 buffs. Haste pot alone is only a 25% increase for half the time (12.5% averaged over 30 seconds). Deathwish has amplified the haste post so that 12.5+20 becomes 35! Not to mention, your yellow dps has gone from 400 to 480 dps. 1290 dps out of a 1000 dps player for 30 seconds. How is this black magic possible? Just thank Levitra I guess. If you don't understand that bit, don't both reading further.
That's just the first deathwish. We'll call that baby deathwish. Now comes the 19% real deathwish. Haste pot, bloodlust/heroism, reckless, deathwish. Grand daddy deathwish. This is Rambo with his M16 mowing people down in front of the helicopter. This is fun stuff. Now, you have 600 white DPS hasted by 30% for 30 seconds, 25% more for 15 seconds, everything crits for 15 seconds, and you have deathwish. 600 white dps becomes 780/930 (no haste pot, haste pot). During the haste pot, reckless takes you from 930 dps:
Say you hit 85% of that time with 24% glancings (.75 damage) and 35% crits (doubles) for expected weapon damage of 1.14 x base. Under reckless, all these go to 1.4 x base (your still miss and glance). That's a ratio of 1.4/1.14 = 1.228 or 930 dps x 1.228 = 1142.
Heck, lets toss deathwish on there: 1370 white DPS. So, 1370 white DPS for 15 seconds with deathwish (1142 without) with 936 unrecklessed/780 without deathwish the other 15 seconds.
Lets say you normally do 1000 yellow execute spam DPS. (say 2200 under reckless). So you add deathwish to the mix and you get 20% more rage for harder executes which hit 20% harder again. You get deathwish stacking on deathwish. The return on execute is not linear damage/rage but I'll assume it is for comparison. For 15 seconds, you have 936 DW DPS versus 780 without for a rage factor of 1.2. Execute spam goes from 1000 to 1200 because of extra rage. No add DW and execute goes to 1440. This is a high number but during execute spam do not think that DW adds less than 30% damage. During the second half, your 2200 goes to 3168. Total DPS without DW: 2561, with 3379 with.
So now you have 210 seconds of a boss fight where for 138 seconds you do 1000 dps. For 30 seconds you could have deathwish. For 42 seconds, you execute and for 30 of those seconds you could have deathwish.
Without deathwish: 264030 damage
With deathwish: 297270 damage
So in a fight like this Deathwish provides 10% + damage.
I'm not going to say my math is great. I wrote this as quickly as possible and did not pile up as many trinkets/procs as possible. You can make a case for it being closer or farther apart. Under no circumstance is 3% an appropriate approximation of deathwish increasing DPS. And if you think 1 offhand hit every 9 seconds is going to do 30k damage in a 3.5 minute fight, well I don't know what to tell you.
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Originally Posted by Darkrenown
A PPM just means the % chance to proc is based on the weapon speed. More instants = more procs.
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That means no matter what your weapon speed is, as long as it is quicker than 1 swing/minute, you will always get 1 proc per minute.
It doesn't matter how many instants you use, given it 10 or 30, the proc will always be 1 proc per minute.
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Originally Posted by lazerpewpew
Let's assume that the proc happens 1 PPM.
That means no matter what your weapon speed is, as long as it is quicker than 1 swing/minute, you will always get 1 proc per minute. It doesn't matter how many instants you use, given it 10 or 30, the proc will always be 1 proc per minute. |
No, that does seem incorrect then. From what I gather, procs are coded so that under autoattack they average X procs per minute. This is based on weapon speed. A 3 second weapon swings 20 times in a minute so a 1 ppm enchant converts to a 5% chance on hit. A 2 ppm would be 10%. A 1ppm on a 6 second weapon would be 10%. This mates up with getting double procs yet not devaluing an enchant on a slow weapon by having straight %based procs. This conversion, however, allows for additional moves above and beyond your autoattack to generate more procs. If you go out and test this, you will find that cycling instants has a fairly clear effect on the actual amount of procs you get. Some enchants wind up with hidden cooldowns to control the rate at which the PPM can be raised with faster casts. If it was controlled in the way in which you suggest, spell surge would not need a hidden cooldown on it.
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Originally Posted by lazerpewpew
Let's assume that the proc happens 1 PPM.
That means no matter what your weapon speed is, as long as it is quicker than 1 swing/minute, you will always get 1 proc per minute. It doesn't matter how many instants you use, given it 10 or 30, the proc will always be 1 proc per minute. |
Death Wish move, "explained":
- Bornakk
WoW Forums -> Why was Deathwish moved to Arms?
| Some warriors felt forced to pickup certain talents and this left them with few options. This change could allow people in these situations to have some extra options while the weapon expertise and threat reduction improvements to the deep end of the fury tree allow for more consistent sustained damage. |
WoW Forums -> Why was Deathwish moved to Arms?
And yet, my prediction is that 33/28 is still going to be the cookie cutter Arms PvP spec.
With any luck, Blizzard will notice. "Hey, look, people still aren't speccing past second wind or blood frenzy in arms, maybe we should do something about 35+ Arms instead."
It's not arms that has a problem with lack of options. It's fury. As has been said before, 17/44/0 has no room to change without breaking the build. I have no idea where I'm going to get the points for Weapon Mastery from (and I'm going to find a way to take it, -4% dodge is huge).
I never thought I'd be seriously considering a slam build because it'll help the raid more, but if the numbers I've seen about what this change means are accurate, it may be hard to justify staying DW Fury, as much as I like the spec and play style.
With any luck, Blizzard will notice. "Hey, look, people still aren't speccing past second wind or blood frenzy in arms, maybe we should do something about 35+ Arms instead."
It's not arms that has a problem with lack of options. It's fury. As has been said before, 17/44/0 has no room to change without breaking the build. I have no idea where I'm going to get the points for Weapon Mastery from (and I'm going to find a way to take it, -4% dodge is huge).
I never thought I'd be seriously considering a slam build because it'll help the raid more, but if the numbers I've seen about what this change means are accurate, it may be hard to justify staying DW Fury, as much as I like the spec and play style.
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Originally Posted by Alhena
And yet, my prediction is that 33/28 is still going to be the cookie cutter Arms PvP spec.
With any luck, Blizzard will notice. "Hey, look, people still aren't speccing past second wind or blood frenzy in arms, maybe we should do something about 35+ Arms instead." It's not arms that has a problem with lack of options. It's fury. As has been said before, 17/44/0 has no room to change without breaking the build. I have no idea where I'm going to get the points for Weapon Mastery from (and I'm going to find a way to take it, -4% dodge is huge). |
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Originally Posted by Hozz
They need to unlink Enrage and Flurry. Enrage in the PVE DPS tree is a blackhole for talent points. If they should have moved anything, they should have moved this.
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Originally Posted by Hozz
They need to unlink Enrage and Flurry. Enrage in the PVE DPS tree is a blackhole for talent points. If they should have moved anything, they should have moved this.
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Originally Posted by Adrammelech
Or if their issue is MS warriors getting flurry (this formed the cornerstone of the TM move as I recall) they need to link it to Dual Wield spec instead of enrage.
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Originally Posted by lazerpewpew
Let's assume that the proc happens 1 PPM.
That means no matter what your weapon speed is, as long as it is quicker than 1 swing/minute, you will always get 1 proc per minute. It doesn't matter how many instants you use, given it 10 or 30, the proc will always be 1 proc per minute. |
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Originally Posted by Grymm
I'm opposed to the DW/SS swap. It doesn't make much sense to me. If you were to rate which spec does it's job the best I would rank warrior specs the following:
*snip* |
I don't want to lose Deathwish.
As to what talent to scrap to get Weapon Expertise I think the best option is probably Imp. Execute. Not really easy to figure out how important this talent is though, I guess it depends a lot on whether the talent is what makes the difference bewteen Executes every gcd and not.
Question:
If weapon mastery gets changed to -4% dodge, is impale still worth it or would a heavy fury spec with imp execute, weapon mastery and imp WW provide more single target dps?
If weapon mastery gets changed to -4% dodge, is impale still worth it or would a heavy fury spec with imp execute, weapon mastery and imp WW provide more single target dps?
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Originally Posted by lazerpewpew
Let's assume that the proc happens 1 PPM.
That means no matter what your weapon speed is, as long as it is quicker than 1 swing/minute, you will always get 1 proc per minute. It doesn't matter how many instants you use, given it 10 or 30, the proc will always be 1 proc per minute. |
1. There's internal cooldown on enchant procs. We know this isn't true as they can refresh themselves.
or
2. Instants can't proc enchants. Known to be false since you can easily see procs happening at the same time as an instant some time after an auto attack witha slow weapon.
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Originally Posted by Fogbug
By all appearances this is Blizzard trying to find a way to make Endless Rage/Imp MS more attractive and not Blizzard trying to make arms specs worse in general
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Is it really making it that attractive to anyone? What has changed with Imp MS and ER that I have missed? What new benefits has it picked up? If they wanted to accomplish that, they would have fixed 33+ in the Arms tree. If anything they are not trying to fix a problem, they are just trying to force you out of the best PvP cookie cutter. So in essence they are eliminating what they consider a problem with the class by introducing a few more. I've never understood the backwards logic they have with fixing our class.
And as you said, the real reason warriors go mid fury for PvP is Enrage. Deathwish is good in PvP but I could live without that but not Enrage. In PvE it would be just the opposite.
This change is by far the most odd I've seen from Bliz since my first patch of 1.2. We've asked for Enrage to be moved to Arms for the last few years and never once did anyone ask for a change to SS or DW.
Edited onPatch 2.2.3
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Originally Posted by D4vE
Question:
If weapon mastery gets changed to -4% dodge, is impale still worth it or would a heavy fury spec with imp execute, weapon mastery and imp WW provide more single target dps? |
Last edited by Birdemani : 10/15/07 at 9:12 PM.
Edited onPatch 2.2.3
A lot of people are also treating fights as a static thing. How many fights have built in design to be burst oriented? How many fights these days do you really hit the mob for an unchanging amount (no modifiers) from 100% down to 0% with nothing interrupting you?
We are moving further and further away from pure tank and spank, you don't have 100% dps time for an equivelent amount. Forget DPS alone, look at the nerf from the perspective of beating encounters also. How important do you find Deathwish to be when AoEing Kael weapons, executing trapped Illidan, burning down the last percentages of a boss with a health point enrage, or when you FINALLY get go all out on Bloodboil for those precious 30 seconds. Let alone the fights with DPS dead time because it's either kited or is immune or we're in a "cutscene'/transition" and what have you.
Encounters have a lot of 'dead' time that make DW more valuable than what modeling it would show you (stacking it with other cooldowns aside - and yes stacking is indeed obvious), a limited time increase coupled with another limited time increases, the few that say "it'd be the same if you use deathwish at 30% or use it at 19% with heroism/reck/haste pot" are completely out of it.
These are things a lot of posts don't take into account - burst damage like Deathwish being on demand while taking more damage is in large part of what Fury is about, same line of Recklessness.
On the net, we probably didn't lose over much or gain over much for most encounters when all the changes are tallied (if you were really threat capped, you gained, without a doubt), but this change really irks me for reasons beyond statistics. All for a talent that has been rehashed over and over, and most people still won't take. The sinister side of me just leads me to think they should transfer all the popular talents, protection included over to arms. If you have nothing else to take you may indeed take a talent you don't really need - that seems to be the logic here for a 41 point deep talent.
We are moving further and further away from pure tank and spank, you don't have 100% dps time for an equivelent amount. Forget DPS alone, look at the nerf from the perspective of beating encounters also. How important do you find Deathwish to be when AoEing Kael weapons, executing trapped Illidan, burning down the last percentages of a boss with a health point enrage, or when you FINALLY get go all out on Bloodboil for those precious 30 seconds. Let alone the fights with DPS dead time because it's either kited or is immune or we're in a "cutscene'/transition" and what have you.
Encounters have a lot of 'dead' time that make DW more valuable than what modeling it would show you (stacking it with other cooldowns aside - and yes stacking is indeed obvious), a limited time increase coupled with another limited time increases, the few that say "it'd be the same if you use deathwish at 30% or use it at 19% with heroism/reck/haste pot" are completely out of it.
These are things a lot of posts don't take into account - burst damage like Deathwish being on demand while taking more damage is in large part of what Fury is about, same line of Recklessness.
On the net, we probably didn't lose over much or gain over much for most encounters when all the changes are tallied (if you were really threat capped, you gained, without a doubt), but this change really irks me for reasons beyond statistics. All for a talent that has been rehashed over and over, and most people still won't take. The sinister side of me just leads me to think they should transfer all the popular talents, protection included over to arms. If you have nothing else to take you may indeed take a talent you don't really need - that seems to be the logic here for a 41 point deep talent.
Last edited by Enkidu : 10/15/07 at 9:05 PM.
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Originally Posted by Bronwyn
It has expertise, i.e. 4 points of it (2 per talent point). 4 points will be 1% dodge reduce.
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Originally Posted by tib
Kalgan recently posted on US forums stating Weapon Mastery will be changed to a flat -4% dodge once moved to fury tree.
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Expertise would really be a must is you consider its gear budget equivelent, improved whirlwind you would have to look into cycles first to see how much of a gain the second point really is, but I don't think it'd be that siginifcant.
What you mostly gain by not taking Impale is rather the points you free out of the arms tree for other things, for example TM you could say. Otherwise just take the points out of precisions, well geared fury has sickly high hit anyway and it is a cheap stat in the item budget. Impale is near a 4% DPS increase off the top of my head for the typical fury warrior.
What you mostly gain by not taking Impale is rather the points you free out of the arms tree for other things, for example TM you could say. Otherwise just take the points out of precisions, well geared fury has sickly high hit anyway and it is a cheap stat in the item budget. Impale is near a 4% DPS increase off the top of my head for the typical fury warrior.
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Originally Posted by Fogbug
Hey now, that would be a pretty sizable nerf. By all appearances this is Blizzard trying to find a way to make Endless Rage/Imp MS more attractive and not Blizzard trying to make arms specs worse in general
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I still don't get it. If Weapon Mastery adds -4% to dodge, then [Bracers of the Ancient Phalanx] and the 22 expertise should be legendary.
Has there been confirmation that this is indeed -4% dodge or could K have made a mistake?
Has there been confirmation that this is indeed -4% dodge or could K have made a mistake?
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Originally Posted by Randor
I still don't get it. If Weapon Mastery adds -4% to dodge, then [Bracers of the Ancient Phalanx] and the 22 expertise should be legendary.
Has there been confirmation that this is indeed -4% dodge or could K have made a mistake? |
Approximately 4 rating = 1 point for expertise, those bracers are -1% dodge/parry, why would they be legendary?
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Originally Posted by Nite_Moogle
The talent is being modified to remove 1% dodge per rank, not to grant enough expertise to do it. It will not have anything to do with expertise at all.
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That said, I was in ZA last night and missed DW a little bit but I was surprised how I still generated a ton of threat. I guess I expected more but even with Salvation and Subtlety, I was pulling agro.
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Originally Posted by Nite_Moogle
The talent is being modified to remove 1% dodge per rank, not to grant enough expertise to do it. It will not have anything to do with expertise at all.
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Originally Posted by Darkrenown
Don't you mean -2%/rank, or is it being changed to a 4 pointer?
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Originally Posted by Nite_Moogle
I guessed they were changing it to 4 ranks based simply on how good it's going to be, but yeah, it's currently 2 points. If it's 2% per rank it's a simply incredible talent.
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A question regarding loots:
All the time using the Warrior DPS Spreadsheet I thought finally the Plate loot would be compareable to other armor's loot until today when we killed Kaz'Rogal and I saw [Valestalker Girdle] dropping. It's simply better than [Belt of Seething Fury]. After looking over it, it seemed like there were still many such items, mostly ones with haste rating which other classes don't really need sine the nerf. How far would you go? Wear a nearly full gear of Mail/Leather like in the old days where nothing else existed?
All the time using the Warrior DPS Spreadsheet I thought finally the Plate loot would be compareable to other armor's loot until today when we killed Kaz'Rogal and I saw [Valestalker Girdle] dropping. It's simply better than [Belt of Seething Fury]. After looking over it, it seemed like there were still many such items, mostly ones with haste rating which other classes don't really need sine the nerf. How far would you go? Wear a nearly full gear of Mail/Leather like in the old days where nothing else existed?
[Red Belt of Battle] seems better for a Fury warrior. Seething isn't bad for a MS warrior if the haste doesn't throw off the slam rotation. Though the upcoming heroic badge belt might be the best with its armor penetration.
Personally, I've never minded using mail or leather if it is a clear increase in stats as I'll have a tanking set and a dps srtamina (pvp/arena gear) when needed.
Personally, I've never minded using mail or leather if it is a clear increase in stats as I'll have a tanking set and a dps srtamina (pvp/arena gear) when needed.
Edited onPatch 2.2.3
Meh, I don't buy that reason, if they are going to use that as reason for Arms warriors to get DW then I propose they unlink Enrage -> Flurry so we have 5 more points to flesh out the rest of the Fury tree with "must have" talents.
Much like my Arms brothers I feel forced into getting certain talents therefore I'm left with few options as to how to pick up Imp. Cleave or Weapon Expertise to go with my new Sweeping Strikes forced talent without ruining my cookie cutter build. :P
I'm just going to shoot from the hip here, but there are a lot of good ideas they could do with the Fury tree to free up points while keeping the tree as it is such as making Enrage a 1 point talent and tying the gains the other 4 points give into Flurry so they actually make sense together. This would free up 4 points that would still force us to make a style decision but at least we'd have options at this point.
They could move this new Enrage -> Flurry over to above Sweeping Strikes and make it part of the chain down to Bloodthirst and Rampage. Make Sweeping Strike a passive that has a chance on hit to hit an adjacent target.
Modify Bloodthirst to take away 30 health per successful swing making Rampage a passive that as the health lowers on a Fury warrior they gain an AP boost.
Again this is just shooting from the hip with a random quick thought, but it keeps the tree intact. It doesn't greatly modify the talents in such a way to make them any more powerful then they are now, but keeps the concept of a Fury warrior alive and well and there is some sort of logic to follow when looking at the tree.
Much like my Arms brothers I feel forced into getting certain talents therefore I'm left with few options as to how to pick up Imp. Cleave or Weapon Expertise to go with my new Sweeping Strikes forced talent without ruining my cookie cutter build. :P
I'm just going to shoot from the hip here, but there are a lot of good ideas they could do with the Fury tree to free up points while keeping the tree as it is such as making Enrage a 1 point talent and tying the gains the other 4 points give into Flurry so they actually make sense together. This would free up 4 points that would still force us to make a style decision but at least we'd have options at this point.
They could move this new Enrage -> Flurry over to above Sweeping Strikes and make it part of the chain down to Bloodthirst and Rampage. Make Sweeping Strike a passive that has a chance on hit to hit an adjacent target.
Modify Bloodthirst to take away 30 health per successful swing making Rampage a passive that as the health lowers on a Fury warrior they gain an AP boost.
Again this is just shooting from the hip with a random quick thought, but it keeps the tree intact. It doesn't greatly modify the talents in such a way to make them any more powerful then they are now, but keeps the concept of a Fury warrior alive and well and there is some sort of logic to follow when looking at the tree.
Last edited by Crel : 10/16/07 at 3:31 AM.
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Originally Posted by Crel
...
Make Sweeping Strike a passive that has a chance on hit to hit an adjacent target. ... |
"Making Sweeping Strikes a passive skill, that has a *chance on hit*, right?"
There is no way I would pick Sweeping Strikes as a talent if I couldn't control it 100%. I can only imagine running around in Hyjal Summit & Black Temple with a "chance on hit Sweeping Strikes".
It would be way too random. And at worst, you'd be the one causing a few too many wipes on trash pulls based on random crowd-controlled mobs breaking free.
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Originally Posted by boysailor
I might've misunderstood you, but the way I read your statement is;
"Making Sweeping Strikes a passive skill, that has a *chance on hit*, right?" There is no way I would pick Sweeping Strikes as a talent if I couldn't control it 100%. I can only imagine running around in Hyjal Summit & Black Temple with a "chance on hit Sweeping Strikes". It would be way too random. And at worst, you'd be the one causing a few too many wipes on trash pulls based on random crowd-controlled mobs breaking free. |
Perhaps that wasn't the best shot but it goes towards my point of there are lots of little things Blizzard could do to modify the talents/trees to better fit a theme that talent trees have, then these seemingly random changes they are making now with poor reasoning behind the change.
That isn't to say that these are completely bad changes, but the statement that some warriors felt pigeon holed into getting certain talents leaving them with little choice is a rather weak statement, thats true of any class that is trying to maximize their specific function.
As it stands now with these swaps, Fury is left up shit creek because now we're the ones with limited choices as there are several talents in the fury tree that are accepted as "must haves" and we really don't have the points to spend to take advantage of these new talents, at least in the case of following cookie cutter builds.
It remains to be seen if these changes truly will make the difference that Blizzard seems to think they will.
Right, sorry about that.
Well, as things are (right) now. It seems like they (Blizzard) are.. hm, in lack of a better word, "experimenting" with the warrior talent tree.
I'm guessing (hoping?) that they'll do some other adjustments (based on what people have been suggesting) quite soon.
My assumption is also based on the quote from Bornakk (I think) mentioning they will do some other adjustments to certain classes. He also mentioned the mortal strike effect for hunters, as an example.
Well, as things are (right) now. It seems like they (Blizzard) are.. hm, in lack of a better word, "experimenting" with the warrior talent tree.
I'm guessing (hoping?) that they'll do some other adjustments (based on what people have been suggesting) quite soon.
My assumption is also based on the quote from Bornakk (I think) mentioning they will do some other adjustments to certain classes. He also mentioned the mortal strike effect for hunters, as an example.
Only 1 of 2 things can happen past this point.
1) They move Death Wish back, and make no further changes.
2) They keep Death Wish as it is(Which I think they're going to do), and make changes to buff Fury DPS over the rest of the PTR to make us all feel better about it(Or future patches if they feel the removal of Death Wish dropped Warrior raid DPS too much).
Or we can all go conspiracy theory and talk about how they wanted to nerf Warrior DPS, or Kalgan is a PvP Warrior therefore doesn't care about PvE DPS, but that's straight off the Official Warrior boards isn't it. ^^
1) They move Death Wish back, and make no further changes.
2) They keep Death Wish as it is(Which I think they're going to do), and make changes to buff Fury DPS over the rest of the PTR to make us all feel better about it(Or future patches if they feel the removal of Death Wish dropped Warrior raid DPS too much).
Or we can all go conspiracy theory and talk about how they wanted to nerf Warrior DPS, or Kalgan is a PvP Warrior therefore doesn't care about PvE DPS, but that's straight off the Official Warrior boards isn't it. ^^
The Kalgan conspiracy theory is tempting, but I'd prefer to not clutter this proud topic with warrior forum posts of the week. :P
I foresee 2 being what will happen, I seriously doubt this change will be reverted. Sadly on some level I almost prefer this change, I wouldn't mind losing DW nearly as much if I could pick up the other talents in the Fury tree that I want.
I foresee 2 being what will happen, I seriously doubt this change will be reverted. Sadly on some level I almost prefer this change, I wouldn't mind losing DW nearly as much if I could pick up the other talents in the Fury tree that I want.
S3 arena gear shown on mmo-champion.
http://www.mmo-champion.com/images/n...battlegear.jpg
Interestingly enough the S3 chestplace is better than Heart-shatterer and just short of Onslaught.
http://www.mmo-champion.com/images/n...battlegear.jpg
Interestingly enough the S3 chestplace is better than Heart-shatterer and just short of Onslaught.
Once you consider the fact that you can achieve the socket bonuses with "full dps" gemming on the S3 gear, it's pretty much flat out better than the T6 gear for DPS in most slots, from my quick perusal of it.
But thats something blizzard have always done. The tier sets have retarded sockets, while the PVP sets have good ones. However the fact neither the S3 legs or chestpiece needs personal rating means theyre very easy to get.
I also dont understand blizzards backward logic with the talent points. If anything its the fury DPS warriors who cant get everthing they want, arms cookie cutter was fine as it was. All they achieved by moving SS to fury was arms warriors no longer need to switch to battle stance to use it they still get deathwish and SS.
Arms warriors will still go into fury for enrage, flurry ect. If blizzard really want arms warriors to get the higher tiers of arms they need to do one simple thing. Get off there asses and improve the higher tier arms talents.
I also dont understand blizzards backward logic with the talent points. If anything its the fury DPS warriors who cant get everthing they want, arms cookie cutter was fine as it was. All they achieved by moving SS to fury was arms warriors no longer need to switch to battle stance to use it they still get deathwish and SS.
Arms warriors will still go into fury for enrage, flurry ect. If blizzard really want arms warriors to get the higher tiers of arms they need to do one simple thing. Get off there asses and improve the higher tier arms talents.
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Originally Posted by Rishina
I also dont understand blizzards backward logic with the talent points. If anything its the fury DPS warriors who cant get everthing they want, arms cookie cutter was fine as it was. All they achieved by moving SS to fury was arms warriors no longer need to switch to battle stance to use it they still get deathwish and SS.
Arms warriors will still go into fury for enrage, flurry ect. If blizzard really want arms warriors to get the higher tiers of arms they need to do one simple thing. Get off there asses and improve the higher tier arms talents. |
Edited onPatch 2.2.3
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Originally Posted by Brissa
Interestingly enough the S3 chestplace is better than Heart-shatterer and just short of Onslaught.
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Edit: Rather than making a second post I'll just comment on the above two here:
Exactly. I raid as 33/28 and I'll still have the same talents in 2.3 and I can't see me changing unless BF moves to fury or something amazing is added to upper arms tiers.
Even if they do buff arms I suspect it would be a pvp buff rather than pve, although I could be wrong given arms still keeps BF. Perhaps now DW is in arms they could swap endless rage with something like "Unstopable deathwish: While deathwish is active you are immune to all CC/slowing effects"
Last edited by Darkrenown : 10/16/07 at 8:36 AM.
Yeah I like the thing that they do arena gear almost equal to our t6 equipment. gr8 work blizzard keep it up..........
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Originally Posted by Rishina
But thats something blizzard have always done. The tier sets have retarded sockets, while the PVP sets have good ones.
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Even though I have the armorsmithing chest i'm seriously considering the S3 chest. I'm not quite sure what to think of the legs. I have the legs off Archimonde, which have more attack power, and the legs off Gurtogg, which have more armor penetration but no hit. This seems to be a nice middle ground, decent -AC and good hit/crit stats, just lacking in a little strength.
Edited onPatch 2.2.3
T6 would have been perfect, and powerful, and superior to the arena sets if the agility was switched for crit/hit rating, but again, I'm preaching to the choir about Warrior itemization now aren't I?
Just case in point: [Krakken-Heart Breastplate] is 3 ilvls below [Heartshatter Breastplate] and it shows, Heartshatter has 2 more str, 3 more stamina, and the difference of 1 crit rating in place of the worthless agility.
And unlike what was discussed at Blizzcon, ZA is not the holy grail for fixing Fury itemization, as I'm sure you've all seen from the drops that have been shown so far, as well as the heroic badge plate DPS gear. It's saddening.
Just case in point: [Krakken-Heart Breastplate] is 3 ilvls below [Heartshatter Breastplate] and it shows, Heartshatter has 2 more str, 3 more stamina, and the difference of 1 crit rating in place of the worthless agility.
And unlike what was discussed at Blizzcon, ZA is not the holy grail for fixing Fury itemization, as I'm sure you've all seen from the drops that have been shown so far, as well as the heroic badge plate DPS gear. It's saddening.
Last edited by Emeraude : 10/16/07 at 9:02 AM.
Indeed, the new fury sets have too much hit, no crit and nice high AP. Is it impossible for blizzard to make a balanced fury DPS set? T5 is quite nice, apart from the gloves I guess. Beaten by a gruul loot... very badly itemised, and the 2pc set bonus needs to be changed.
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Originally Posted by Rishina
Indeed, the new fury sets have too much hit, no crit and nice high AP. Is it impossible for blizzard to make a balanced fury DPS set? T5 is quite nice, apart from the gloves I guess. Beaten by a gruul loot... very badly itemised, and the 2pc set bonus needs to be changed.
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The thing that frustrates me is that after three years we are still fighting to have a decent fury set that is all Plate. Nearly every release of new gear sees gaping holes in itemization and often has us stealing gear from rogues or hunters. There doesn't seem to be an avenue to even get that frustration out. During TBC beta I submitted dozens of tickets due to the lack of dps plate upgrades along with stats in the wrong area (too much stam, use of agil instead of crit, etc). At the end of the day they just need to balance out crit, strength, hit and enough stam to keep us alive; then toss in some nice flavor stats here and there (-armor, haste, +bonus damage to xxx).
Hmmm. I'm thinking if they tweaked some things, the 2.3 review could be a buff for all warriors.
1. Reitemize T6 to have crit rating and some moderate hit instead of Agil.
2. Redo the T4/5 DPS set bonuses to be useful.
3. Do something to give DW fury warriors some flexibility and maybe a small DPS buff to make use of the aggro redux. Something like upping DW spec to match rogues (75% total oh damage) and Shaman flurry (30% like it used to be). Picking up weapon mastery almost compensates for the loss of DW (-4% dodge on BT, melee, execute if plain nice - probably a 3% increase in total DPS).
4. Along with 3, I'd like to be able to go 17/44 and get WE without giving up 2% hit or something. WE becomes a talent you want that you have to give up something else for. It would be nice to have a core build that had some slop in it for preference points.
5. There are too many dead abilities in the warrior trees. Booming voice, blood craze usually, imp cleave, imp rend, imp MS (usually), imp disciplines, endless rage. The reason PVP warriors spec into Fury was mostly because after you put 33 points in arms, there is just nothing else you want.
1. Reitemize T6 to have crit rating and some moderate hit instead of Agil.
2. Redo the T4/5 DPS set bonuses to be useful.
3. Do something to give DW fury warriors some flexibility and maybe a small DPS buff to make use of the aggro redux. Something like upping DW spec to match rogues (75% total oh damage) and Shaman flurry (30% like it used to be). Picking up weapon mastery almost compensates for the loss of DW (-4% dodge on BT, melee, execute if plain nice - probably a 3% increase in total DPS).
4. Along with 3, I'd like to be able to go 17/44 and get WE without giving up 2% hit or something. WE becomes a talent you want that you have to give up something else for. It would be nice to have a core build that had some slop in it for preference points.
5. There are too many dead abilities in the warrior trees. Booming voice, blood craze usually, imp cleave, imp rend, imp MS (usually), imp disciplines, endless rage. The reason PVP warriors spec into Fury was mostly because after you put 33 points in arms, there is just nothing else you want.
Whats really strange is how they claim to be itemizing S3 for pvp and T6 for pve when Agility, which is very prominent on T6 is clearly a better pvp stat since it offers both dodge, armor and crit. All the while S3 gets both hit, crit and armor pen.
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Originally Posted by Emeraude
Only 1 of 2 things can happen past this point.
2) They keep Death Wish as it is(Which I think they're going to do), and make changes to buff Fury DPS over the rest of the PTR to make us all feel better about it(Or future patches if they feel the removal of Death Wish dropped Warrior raid DPS too much). |
1. Unlinking Enrage from Flurry, thus saving Fury warriors having to stick 5 points into a talent that does not help us in any meaningful way.
2. Swapping Improved Slam with Blood Frenzy. BF seems to fit the fury tree better thematically anyway, and it cements Fury as the PvE dps spec.
One effect of these changes that hasn't been much discussed is that the swap of DW and Improved Intercept means that nearly all the powerhouse PvP talents are now in Arms. So put the PvE raid damage buff talent in Fury. Blizzard should finish specializing our trees, and stop pretending that Fury being PvP viable is a goal of theirs. If I wanna arena, I'll just respec. It's not like I'm not swimming in gold.
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Originally Posted by Nite_Moogle
The talent is being modified to remove 1% dodge per rank, not to grant enough expertise to do it. It will not have anything to do with expertise at all.
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Originally Posted by Darkrenown
Don't you mean -2%/rank, or is it being changed to a 4 pointer?
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Originally Posted by Nite_Moogle
I guessed they were changing it to 4 ranks based simply on how good it's going to be, but yeah, it's currently 2 points. If it's 2% per rank it's a simply incredible talent.
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A question regarding loots:
All the time using the Warrior DPS Spreadsheet I thought finally the Plate loot would be compareable to other armor's loot until today when we killed Kaz'Rogal and I saw [Valestalker Girdle] dropping. It's simply better than [Belt of Seething Fury]. After looking over it, it seemed like there were still many such items, mostly ones with haste rating which other classes don't really need sine the nerf. How far would you go? Wear a nearly full gear of Mail/Leather like in the old days where nothing else existed?
All the time using the Warrior DPS Spreadsheet I thought finally the Plate loot would be compareable to other armor's loot until today when we killed Kaz'Rogal and I saw [Valestalker Girdle] dropping. It's simply better than [Belt of Seething Fury]. After looking over it, it seemed like there were still many such items, mostly ones with haste rating which other classes don't really need sine the nerf. How far would you go? Wear a nearly full gear of Mail/Leather like in the old days where nothing else existed?
[Red Belt of Battle] seems better for a Fury warrior. Seething isn't bad for a MS warrior if the haste doesn't throw off the slam rotation. Though the upcoming heroic badge belt might be the best with its armor penetration.
Personally, I've never minded using mail or leather if it is a clear increase in stats as I'll have a tanking set and a dps srtamina (pvp/arena gear) when needed.
Personally, I've never minded using mail or leather if it is a clear increase in stats as I'll have a tanking set and a dps srtamina (pvp/arena gear) when needed.
Edited onPatch 2.2.3
Meh, I don't buy that reason, if they are going to use that as reason for Arms warriors to get DW then I propose they unlink Enrage -> Flurry so we have 5 more points to flesh out the rest of the Fury tree with "must have" talents.
Much like my Arms brothers I feel forced into getting certain talents therefore I'm left with few options as to how to pick up Imp. Cleave or Weapon Expertise to go with my new Sweeping Strikes forced talent without ruining my cookie cutter build. :P
I'm just going to shoot from the hip here, but there are a lot of good ideas they could do with the Fury tree to free up points while keeping the tree as it is such as making Enrage a 1 point talent and tying the gains the other 4 points give into Flurry so they actually make sense together. This would free up 4 points that would still force us to make a style decision but at least we'd have options at this point.
They could move this new Enrage -> Flurry over to above Sweeping Strikes and make it part of the chain down to Bloodthirst and Rampage. Make Sweeping Strike a passive that has a chance on hit to hit an adjacent target.
Modify Bloodthirst to take away 30 health per successful swing making Rampage a passive that as the health lowers on a Fury warrior they gain an AP boost.
Again this is just shooting from the hip with a random quick thought, but it keeps the tree intact. It doesn't greatly modify the talents in such a way to make them any more powerful then they are now, but keeps the concept of a Fury warrior alive and well and there is some sort of logic to follow when looking at the tree.
Much like my Arms brothers I feel forced into getting certain talents therefore I'm left with few options as to how to pick up Imp. Cleave or Weapon Expertise to go with my new Sweeping Strikes forced talent without ruining my cookie cutter build. :P
I'm just going to shoot from the hip here, but there are a lot of good ideas they could do with the Fury tree to free up points while keeping the tree as it is such as making Enrage a 1 point talent and tying the gains the other 4 points give into Flurry so they actually make sense together. This would free up 4 points that would still force us to make a style decision but at least we'd have options at this point.
They could move this new Enrage -> Flurry over to above Sweeping Strikes and make it part of the chain down to Bloodthirst and Rampage. Make Sweeping Strike a passive that has a chance on hit to hit an adjacent target.
Modify Bloodthirst to take away 30 health per successful swing making Rampage a passive that as the health lowers on a Fury warrior they gain an AP boost.
Again this is just shooting from the hip with a random quick thought, but it keeps the tree intact. It doesn't greatly modify the talents in such a way to make them any more powerful then they are now, but keeps the concept of a Fury warrior alive and well and there is some sort of logic to follow when looking at the tree.
Last edited by Crel : 10/16/07 at 3:31 AM.
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Originally Posted by Crel
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Make Sweeping Strike a passive that has a chance on hit to hit an adjacent target. ... |
"Making Sweeping Strikes a passive skill, that has a *chance on hit*, right?"
There is no way I would pick Sweeping Strikes as a talent if I couldn't control it 100%. I can only imagine running around in Hyjal Summit & Black Temple with a "chance on hit Sweeping Strikes".
It would be way too random. And at worst, you'd be the one causing a few too many wipes on trash pulls based on random crowd-controlled mobs breaking free.
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Originally Posted by boysailor
I might've misunderstood you, but the way I read your statement is;
"Making Sweeping Strikes a passive skill, that has a *chance on hit*, right?" There is no way I would pick Sweeping Strikes as a talent if I couldn't control it 100%. I can only imagine running around in Hyjal Summit & Black Temple with a "chance on hit Sweeping Strikes". It would be way too random. And at worst, you'd be the one causing a few too many wipes on trash pulls based on random crowd-controlled mobs breaking free. |
Perhaps that wasn't the best shot but it goes towards my point of there are lots of little things Blizzard could do to modify the talents/trees to better fit a theme that talent trees have, then these seemingly random changes they are making now with poor reasoning behind the change.
That isn't to say that these are completely bad changes, but the statement that some warriors felt pigeon holed into getting certain talents leaving them with little choice is a rather weak statement, thats true of any class that is trying to maximize their specific function.
As it stands now with these swaps, Fury is left up shit creek because now we're the ones with limited choices as there are several talents in the fury tree that are accepted as "must haves" and we really don't have the points to spend to take advantage of these new talents, at least in the case of following cookie cutter builds.
It remains to be seen if these changes truly will make the difference that Blizzard seems to think they will.
Right, sorry about that.
Well, as things are (right) now. It seems like they (Blizzard) are.. hm, in lack of a better word, "experimenting" with the warrior talent tree.
I'm guessing (hoping?) that they'll do some other adjustments (based on what people have been suggesting) quite soon.
My assumption is also based on the quote from Bornakk (I think) mentioning they will do some other adjustments to certain classes. He also mentioned the mortal strike effect for hunters, as an example.
Well, as things are (right) now. It seems like they (Blizzard) are.. hm, in lack of a better word, "experimenting" with the warrior talent tree.
I'm guessing (hoping?) that they'll do some other adjustments (based on what people have been suggesting) quite soon.
My assumption is also based on the quote from Bornakk (I think) mentioning they will do some other adjustments to certain classes. He also mentioned the mortal strike effect for hunters, as an example.
Only 1 of 2 things can happen past this point.
1) They move Death Wish back, and make no further changes.
2) They keep Death Wish as it is(Which I think they're going to do), and make changes to buff Fury DPS over the rest of the PTR to make us all feel better about it(Or future patches if they feel the removal of Death Wish dropped Warrior raid DPS too much).
Or we can all go conspiracy theory and talk about how they wanted to nerf Warrior DPS, or Kalgan is a PvP Warrior therefore doesn't care about PvE DPS, but that's straight off the Official Warrior boards isn't it. ^^
1) They move Death Wish back, and make no further changes.
2) They keep Death Wish as it is(Which I think they're going to do), and make changes to buff Fury DPS over the rest of the PTR to make us all feel better about it(Or future patches if they feel the removal of Death Wish dropped Warrior raid DPS too much).
Or we can all go conspiracy theory and talk about how they wanted to nerf Warrior DPS, or Kalgan is a PvP Warrior therefore doesn't care about PvE DPS, but that's straight off the Official Warrior boards isn't it. ^^
The Kalgan conspiracy theory is tempting, but I'd prefer to not clutter this proud topic with warrior forum posts of the week. :P
I foresee 2 being what will happen, I seriously doubt this change will be reverted. Sadly on some level I almost prefer this change, I wouldn't mind losing DW nearly as much if I could pick up the other talents in the Fury tree that I want.
I foresee 2 being what will happen, I seriously doubt this change will be reverted. Sadly on some level I almost prefer this change, I wouldn't mind losing DW nearly as much if I could pick up the other talents in the Fury tree that I want.
S3 arena gear shown on mmo-champion.
http://www.mmo-champion.com/images/n...battlegear.jpg
Interestingly enough the S3 chestplace is better than Heart-shatterer and just short of Onslaught.
http://www.mmo-champion.com/images/n...battlegear.jpg
Interestingly enough the S3 chestplace is better than Heart-shatterer and just short of Onslaught.
Once you consider the fact that you can achieve the socket bonuses with "full dps" gemming on the S3 gear, it's pretty much flat out better than the T6 gear for DPS in most slots, from my quick perusal of it.
But thats something blizzard have always done. The tier sets have retarded sockets, while the PVP sets have good ones. However the fact neither the S3 legs or chestpiece needs personal rating means theyre very easy to get.
I also dont understand blizzards backward logic with the talent points. If anything its the fury DPS warriors who cant get everthing they want, arms cookie cutter was fine as it was. All they achieved by moving SS to fury was arms warriors no longer need to switch to battle stance to use it they still get deathwish and SS.
Arms warriors will still go into fury for enrage, flurry ect. If blizzard really want arms warriors to get the higher tiers of arms they need to do one simple thing. Get off there asses and improve the higher tier arms talents.
I also dont understand blizzards backward logic with the talent points. If anything its the fury DPS warriors who cant get everthing they want, arms cookie cutter was fine as it was. All they achieved by moving SS to fury was arms warriors no longer need to switch to battle stance to use it they still get deathwish and SS.
Arms warriors will still go into fury for enrage, flurry ect. If blizzard really want arms warriors to get the higher tiers of arms they need to do one simple thing. Get off there asses and improve the higher tier arms talents.
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Originally Posted by Rishina
I also dont understand blizzards backward logic with the talent points. If anything its the fury DPS warriors who cant get everthing they want, arms cookie cutter was fine as it was. All they achieved by moving SS to fury was arms warriors no longer need to switch to battle stance to use it they still get deathwish and SS.
Arms warriors will still go into fury for enrage, flurry ect. If blizzard really want arms warriors to get the higher tiers of arms they need to do one simple thing. Get off there asses and improve the higher tier arms talents. |
Edited onPatch 2.2.3
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Originally Posted by Brissa
Interestingly enough the S3 chestplace is better than Heart-shatterer and just short of Onslaught.
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Edit: Rather than making a second post I'll just comment on the above two here:
Exactly. I raid as 33/28 and I'll still have the same talents in 2.3 and I can't see me changing unless BF moves to fury or something amazing is added to upper arms tiers.
Even if they do buff arms I suspect it would be a pvp buff rather than pve, although I could be wrong given arms still keeps BF. Perhaps now DW is in arms they could swap endless rage with something like "Unstopable deathwish: While deathwish is active you are immune to all CC/slowing effects"
Last edited by Darkrenown : 10/16/07 at 8:36 AM.
Yeah I like the thing that they do arena gear almost equal to our t6 equipment. gr8 work blizzard keep it up..........
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Originally Posted by Rishina
But thats something blizzard have always done. The tier sets have retarded sockets, while the PVP sets have good ones.
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Even though I have the armorsmithing chest i'm seriously considering the S3 chest. I'm not quite sure what to think of the legs. I have the legs off Archimonde, which have more attack power, and the legs off Gurtogg, which have more armor penetration but no hit. This seems to be a nice middle ground, decent -AC and good hit/crit stats, just lacking in a little strength.
Edited onPatch 2.2.3
T6 would have been perfect, and powerful, and superior to the arena sets if the agility was switched for crit/hit rating, but again, I'm preaching to the choir about Warrior itemization now aren't I?
Just case in point: [Krakken-Heart Breastplate] is 3 ilvls below [Heartshatter Breastplate] and it shows, Heartshatter has 2 more str, 3 more stamina, and the difference of 1 crit rating in place of the worthless agility.
And unlike what was discussed at Blizzcon, ZA is not the holy grail for fixing Fury itemization, as I'm sure you've all seen from the drops that have been shown so far, as well as the heroic badge plate DPS gear. It's saddening.
Just case in point: [Krakken-Heart Breastplate] is 3 ilvls below [Heartshatter Breastplate] and it shows, Heartshatter has 2 more str, 3 more stamina, and the difference of 1 crit rating in place of the worthless agility.
And unlike what was discussed at Blizzcon, ZA is not the holy grail for fixing Fury itemization, as I'm sure you've all seen from the drops that have been shown so far, as well as the heroic badge plate DPS gear. It's saddening.
Last edited by Emeraude : 10/16/07 at 9:02 AM.
Indeed, the new fury sets have too much hit, no crit and nice high AP. Is it impossible for blizzard to make a balanced fury DPS set? T5 is quite nice, apart from the gloves I guess. Beaten by a gruul loot... very badly itemised, and the 2pc set bonus needs to be changed.
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Originally Posted by Rishina
Indeed, the new fury sets have too much hit, no crit and nice high AP. Is it impossible for blizzard to make a balanced fury DPS set? T5 is quite nice, apart from the gloves I guess. Beaten by a gruul loot... very badly itemised, and the 2pc set bonus needs to be changed.
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The thing that frustrates me is that after three years we are still fighting to have a decent fury set that is all Plate. Nearly every release of new gear sees gaping holes in itemization and often has us stealing gear from rogues or hunters. There doesn't seem to be an avenue to even get that frustration out. During TBC beta I submitted dozens of tickets due to the lack of dps plate upgrades along with stats in the wrong area (too much stam, use of agil instead of crit, etc). At the end of the day they just need to balance out crit, strength, hit and enough stam to keep us alive; then toss in some nice flavor stats here and there (-armor, haste, +bonus damage to xxx).
Hmmm. I'm thinking if they tweaked some things, the 2.3 review could be a buff for all warriors.
1. Reitemize T6 to have crit rating and some moderate hit instead of Agil.
2. Redo the T4/5 DPS set bonuses to be useful.
3. Do something to give DW fury warriors some flexibility and maybe a small DPS buff to make use of the aggro redux. Something like upping DW spec to match rogues (75% total oh damage) and Shaman flurry (30% like it used to be). Picking up weapon mastery almost compensates for the loss of DW (-4% dodge on BT, melee, execute if plain nice - probably a 3% increase in total DPS).
4. Along with 3, I'd like to be able to go 17/44 and get WE without giving up 2% hit or something. WE becomes a talent you want that you have to give up something else for. It would be nice to have a core build that had some slop in it for preference points.
5. There are too many dead abilities in the warrior trees. Booming voice, blood craze usually, imp cleave, imp rend, imp MS (usually), imp disciplines, endless rage. The reason PVP warriors spec into Fury was mostly because after you put 33 points in arms, there is just nothing else you want.
1. Reitemize T6 to have crit rating and some moderate hit instead of Agil.
2. Redo the T4/5 DPS set bonuses to be useful.
3. Do something to give DW fury warriors some flexibility and maybe a small DPS buff to make use of the aggro redux. Something like upping DW spec to match rogues (75% total oh damage) and Shaman flurry (30% like it used to be). Picking up weapon mastery almost compensates for the loss of DW (-4% dodge on BT, melee, execute if plain nice - probably a 3% increase in total DPS).
4. Along with 3, I'd like to be able to go 17/44 and get WE without giving up 2% hit or something. WE becomes a talent you want that you have to give up something else for. It would be nice to have a core build that had some slop in it for preference points.
5. There are too many dead abilities in the warrior trees. Booming voice, blood craze usually, imp cleave, imp rend, imp MS (usually), imp disciplines, endless rage. The reason PVP warriors spec into Fury was mostly because after you put 33 points in arms, there is just nothing else you want.
Whats really strange is how they claim to be itemizing S3 for pvp and T6 for pve when Agility, which is very prominent on T6 is clearly a better pvp stat since it offers both dodge, armor and crit. All the while S3 gets both hit, crit and armor pen.
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Originally Posted by Emeraude
Only 1 of 2 things can happen past this point.
2) They keep Death Wish as it is(Which I think they're going to do), and make changes to buff Fury DPS over the rest of the PTR to make us all feel better about it(Or future patches if they feel the removal of Death Wish dropped Warrior raid DPS too much). |
1. Unlinking Enrage from Flurry, thus saving Fury warriors having to stick 5 points into a talent that does not help us in any meaningful way.
2. Swapping Improved Slam with Blood Frenzy. BF seems to fit the fury tree better thematically anyway, and it cements Fury as the PvE dps spec.
One effect of these changes that hasn't been much discussed is that the swap of DW and Improved Intercept means that nearly all the powerhouse PvP talents are now in Arms. So put the PvE raid damage buff talent in Fury. Blizzard should finish specializing our trees, and stop pretending that Fury being PvP viable is a goal of theirs. If I wanna arena, I'll just respec. It's not like I'm not swimming in gold.
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Originally Posted by Emeraude
And unlike what was discussed at Blizzcon, ZA is not the holy grail for fixing Fury itemization, as I'm sure you've all seen from the drops that have been shown so far, as well as the heroic badge plate DPS gear. It's saddening.
 |
The PvP stuff is very good, especially those with sockets.
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Originally Posted by Grymm
Hmmm. I'm thinking if they tweaked some things, the 2.3 review could be a buff for all warriors.
1. Reitemize T6 to have crit rating and some moderate hit instead of Agil. 2. Redo the T4/5 DPS set bonuses to be useful. 3. Do something to give DW fury warriors some flexibility and maybe a small DPS buff to make use of the aggro redux. Something like upping DW spec to match rogues (75% total oh damage) and Shaman flurry (30% like it used to be). Picking up weapon mastery almost compensates for the loss of DW (-4% dodge on BT, melee, execute if plain nice - probably a 3% increase in total DPS). 4. Along with 3, I'd like to be able to go 17/44 and get WE without giving up 2% hit or something. WE becomes a talent you want that you have to give up something else for. It would be nice to have a core build that had some slop in it for preference points. 5. There are too many dead abilities in the warrior trees. Booming voice, blood craze usually, imp cleave, imp rend, imp MS (usually), imp disciplines, endless rage. The reason PVP warriors spec into Fury was mostly because after you put 33 points in arms, there is just nothing else you want. |
2) The T6 set bonuses suck too. Compare ours to the Rogue T6...night and day.
3) The very first thing they need to do is unlink Enrage from Flurry. Enrage is a black hole for talent points and does nothing for PVE Fury except double the cost of Flurry. We can not even take advantage of the 'awesome' changes we got because they took away 1 talent point in Deathwish and added 4 more in Weapon Mastery and Imp WW (I know its not a new talent, but the base ability is much better making 2/2 compelling for the first time). Fun fact: 2/2 Weapon Mastery and 2/2 Imp WW probably do not add up to the DPS you lose from intelligent Deathwish usage.
4) See above.
5) Agree here, sort of. Every tree has some 'dead' talents. They really only need to get rid of the ones that know clear thinking person would ever take. Like Improved Rend, etc.
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Originally Posted by Alhena
They could make the vast majority of the burning community hate go away by doing two things.
1. Unlinking Enrage from Flurry, thus saving Fury warriors having to stick 5 points into a talent that does not help us in any meaningful way. 2. Swapping Improved Slam with Blood Frenzy. BF seems to fit the fury tree better thematically anyway, and it cements Fury as the PvE dps spec. One effect of these changes that hasn't been much discussed is that the swap of DW and Improved Intercept means that nearly all the powerhouse PvP talents are now in Arms. So put the PvE raid damage buff talent in Fury. Blizzard should finish specializing our trees, and stop pretending that Fury being PvP viable is a goal of theirs. If I wanna arena, I'll just respec. It's not like I'm not swimming in gold. |
#2 would be AWESOME. I am hesitant to push for that though as it pretty much would negate the only reason to bring an Arms Warrior to a raid though.
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Originally Posted by Hozz
#2 would be AWESOME. I am hesitant to push for that though as it pretty much would negate the only reason to bring an Arms Warrior to a raid though.
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BB ran Vashj last night, on our kill attempt I had semi-optimal DW usage, having the group LW time his drums during the first DW, and drums catching the tail part of the execute spam DW (they were still on CD). I plan to parse this data to find out a more concrete, real world value of DW.
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Originally Posted by Hozz
#2 would be AWESOME. I am hesitant to push for that though as it pretty much would negate the only reason to bring an Arms Warrior to a raid though.
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I'm trying to think of other classes which have talents that require a talent from another tree to set a precedence for this, but I'm drawing a blank. Can anyone think of some?
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Originally Posted by Steveharris
I don't think Blizzard would ever do this, simply because it involves a talent from another tree. Suppose someone wanted to be Fury/Prot? They would need to DPS in battle stance to keep Rend up for BF. As it is, Fury/Prot is gimped, but with the change to Defiance and TM, it seems the powers that be envision Warriors with at least a few points in Prot, regardless of their main tree.
I'm trying to think of other classes which have talents that require a talent from another tree to set a precedence for this, but I'm drawing a blank. Can anyone think of some? |
"Your Faerie Fire spell increases the chance the target will be hit by melee and ranged attacks by 1/2/3%."
Although it appears they've changed the wording, this talent used to affect Feral Faerie Fire. (Yes, that would require a 33+/21+ build). I'm not sure if Feral FF is affected anymore, and I don't really think anyone cares. Most balance druids don't take this talent anyway, it cuts into their points for Sublety.
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Originally Posted by Steveharris
As it is, Fury/Prot is gimped
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Wow Web Stats
The individuals who are dps are a purebred spec with gear that outclasses my Heroic/2 SSC item dps set.
And I can't count how many times I've heard 'ya but you'll need to spec either tanking or dps cause hybrids won't cut it when you get to the next level of content' ... Judge a spec on its merits, not on any bandwagon motto.
Yes, but Faerie Fire was already trainable; the talent improved it, and applying it was something that you'd normally do anyway. You didn't have to go into Feral to get FF, then go up to Improved FF in Balance.
I suppose you could make the argument that Rend is trainable, and to just use that. But having Improved Zerker stance and Improved WW in Fury, then Improved Rend in Arms makes them seem...opposed? Unless they change Rend to be useable in all three stances, having to stance dance every 10 seconds (or however long it is) to reapply Rend sounds infuriating at best.
I suppose you could make the argument that Rend is trainable, and to just use that. But having Improved Zerker stance and Improved WW in Fury, then Improved Rend in Arms makes them seem...opposed? Unless they change Rend to be useable in all three stances, having to stance dance every 10 seconds (or however long it is) to reapply Rend sounds infuriating at best.
Any balance druid that doesnt take imp FF is a GIANT waste of a raid spot. Thats the main reason to bring one, I cant believe theyd try to say that any other 3pt spenditure adds more over all raid dps. If you are running with these players they are selflish and definatly not working for the team. In addition, giving the tank 3% hit helps a ton with the moonkins shitty threat.
@blood frenzy. Even if its in the fury tree, if you're going to take it you really need impale. You should have impale anyone imo.
@blood frenzy. Even if its in the fury tree, if you're going to take it you really need impale. You should have impale anyone imo.
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Originally Posted by Mjollnir
I'm curious to learn where you are drawing this 'conclusion' from? I have MTed every boss in SSC/TK with the exception of Kael, albeit we usually go with the full prots. Concerning dps (in my 3/41/17):
Wow Web Stats The individuals who are dps are a purebred spec with gear that outclasses my Heroic/2 SSC item dps set. And I can't count how many times I've heard 'ya but you'll need to spec either tanking or dps cause hybrids won't cut it when you get to the next level of content' ... Judge a spec on its merits, not on any bandwagon motto. |
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Originally Posted by Steveharris
I don't think Blizzard would ever do this, simply because it involves a talent from another tree. Suppose someone wanted to be Fury/Prot? They would need to DPS in battle stance to keep Rend up for BF. As it is, Fury/Prot is gimped, but with the change to Defiance and TM, it seems the powers that be envision Warriors with at least a few points in Prot,
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I'm talking about switching BF to Fury. I'm pretty sure the only two wayt to keep BF up are through rend and Deep Wounds. I'm also pretty sure Deep Wounds isn't in Fury. Moving BF to Fury would then require 17 points in Arms, eliminating Fury/Prot...unless you wanted to switch stances and Rend (which, as you say, is a massive waste of a debuff slot).
Basically, BF to Fury won't happen unless they move Deep Wounds/Impale to Fury as well.
Basically, BF to Fury won't happen unless they move Deep Wounds/Impale to Fury as well.
Rend would be completely worth a debuff spot and stance switch if it allowed a fury warrior to put up BF. You wouldn't need impale or deep wounds (which isn't 17 deep, by the way). It would be annoying and, in my opinion, stupid, but it's the same number of debuffs as Deep Wounds/BF.
IF one were going down that road: move enrage out of fury. Unlink impale and deep wounds, move deep wounds and BF to fury, linked. Let arms have impale and death wish.
IF one were going down that road: move enrage out of fury. Unlink impale and deep wounds, move deep wounds and BF to fury, linked. Let arms have impale and death wish.
Okay, so at least 11 points in Arms for Deep Wounds. I already feel like a shit chucking chimp pounding my keyboard for BT/WW/Rampage/HS/shouts/vent/typing etc. Throwing in a Battle>Rend>Zerker sequence in there would be enough to make many people not want to take BF as Fury, regardless of how powerful it is.
EDIT: That sounds like a much better suggestion.
EDIT: That sounds like a much better suggestion.
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Originally Posted by Birdemani
The thing that frustrates me is that after three years we are still fighting to have a decent fury set that is all Plate. Nearly every release of new gear sees gaping holes in itemization and often has us stealing gear from rogues or hunters. There doesn't seem to be an avenue to even get that frustration out. During TBC beta I submitted dozens of tickets due to the lack of dps plate upgrades along with stats in the wrong area (too much stam, use of agil instead of crit, etc). At the end of the day they just need to balance out crit, strength, hit and enough stam to keep us alive; then toss in some nice flavor stats here and there (-armor, haste, +bonus damage to xxx).
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Originally Posted by madrussian
i dunno bird, the mid-low end raiding itemization is kinda crappy but once you get into the high end(hyjal/bt) there is plenty of plate items that blow leather/mail out of the water for fury dps. dreadboots, heartshatter bp, illidari helm, archi legs, red belt of battle. a lot of those items are perfect for dw fury, but take a lot of effort to gather. so the itemization IS there, just not easily accessable.
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Not to nit-pick or anything, but why in god's name don't they buff Rend? It's a little ridiculous that a priest racial(Star Shards), while crap, is going to be more powerful then a base Warrior ability next patch.
In a world where Corruption/Curse of Agony can take me down to 60% of my life in passing, I kinda wish Rend would do more meaningful and annoying damage over time. It would hardly be overpowered to do so.
In a world where Corruption/Curse of Agony can take me down to 60% of my life in passing, I kinda wish Rend would do more meaningful and annoying damage over time. It would hardly be overpowered to do so.
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Originally Posted by Hozz
#2 would be AWESOME. I am hesitant to push for that though as it pretty much would negate the only reason to bring an Arms Warrior to a raid though.
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As for moving Blood Frenzy, giving Fury Deep Wounds is probably too much to hope for, but honestly, I'd be totally fine with it with no other changes.
Fury/Protection warriors give up PvE damage in order to improve tanking ability. Maybe this would be one of those things they have to give up?
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Originally Posted by Hozz
True, those are good pieces. But Midnight Chestguard and Cursed Vision of Sargeras are the best in their respective slots, and they are both leather. The best bracers we can get are leather, Deadly Cuffs. The best belt, although Red Belt of Belt is superb for its ilevel, also leather.
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Originally Posted by Steveharris
I'm talking about switching BF to Fury. I'm pretty sure the only two wayt to keep BF up are through rend and Deep Wounds. I'm also pretty sure Deep Wounds isn't in Fury. Moving BF to Fury would then require 17 points in Arms, eliminating Fury/Prot...unless you wanted to switch stances and Rend (which, as you say, is a massive waste of a debuff slot).
Basically, BF to Fury won't happen unless they move Deep Wounds/Impale to Fury as well. |
Sword Spec increasing in usefulness?
Hi guys, been reading some time here, first post, so be gentle please 
Yesterday while trying to fall asleep a thought occured to me. With the recent changes to the trees, especially Weapon Mastery, sword Spec might grow superior to poleaxe spec. Though it might be quite obvious why I come to this oppinion, let me elaborate
The reason I until now prefered poleaxe over sword was, beside "ZOMG MOAR CRIT IN TEH SHEET!" the reliability. An increase in critrate is always an increase in dps when it occurs (assuming you´re not critcapping ). However, sword specs extra attack had a chance to miss, be dodged or rarely be parried. Reaching the hitcap as a Slambuild is a no brainer, parrying isnt a real factor so basically your sword spec hit could hit, crit, glance or be dodged. Now we can almost eliminate the dodgefactor with some little weaponskill and most importantly Weapon Mastery.
I´m not too familiar with the hit tables, so i don´t know the effects crit and glancing have on each other, so I´ll just ignore glancings for the sake of my point.
Axe spec gives you 5% more crit, flat out. Sword Spec gives you basically 5% of an extra attack, which in terms of dmg comes out nearly the same with 1% chance to be dodged.But what if the sword spec crits? This would equal triple dmg on a sword spec, and if the hit causing it was a crit anyway quadruple dmg!
Maybe the effects arent as big as I hope it would be. Maybe one of you can shed some light on the point of glancings...
Yesterday while trying to fall asleep a thought occured to me. With the recent changes to the trees, especially Weapon Mastery, sword Spec might grow superior to poleaxe spec. Though it might be quite obvious why I come to this oppinion, let me elaborate
The reason I until now prefered poleaxe over sword was, beside "ZOMG MOAR CRIT IN TEH SHEET!" the reliability. An increase in critrate is always an increase in dps when it occurs (assuming you´re not critcapping
). However, sword specs extra attack had a chance to miss, be dodged or rarely be parried. Reaching the hitcap as a Slambuild is a no brainer, parrying isnt a real factor so basically your sword spec hit could hit, crit, glance or be dodged. Now we can almost eliminate the dodgefactor with some little weaponskill and most importantly Weapon Mastery.I´m not too familiar with the hit tables, so i don´t know the effects crit and glancing have on each other, so I´ll just ignore glancings for the sake of my point.
Axe spec gives you 5% more crit, flat out. Sword Spec gives you basically 5% of an extra attack, which in terms of dmg comes out nearly the same with 1% chance to be dodged.But what if the sword spec crits? This would equal triple dmg on a sword spec, and if the hit causing it was a crit anyway quadruple dmg!
Maybe the effects arent as big as I hope it would be. Maybe one of you can shed some light on the point of glancings...
I have not been past Prince/Nightbane in TBC (I play pretty casually by standards here, and mainly pvp) so I'm gonna try not to go in over my head here. A few thoughts however;
Keep agility away from the pvp-armor please, it's worse for pvp than it is for pve. That said, I too would like to see straight ratings instead of agility on pve-gear.
As for BF/Deep Wounds/Rend, I've always looked at these as a "bleed-theme" that they seem bent on keeping in arms. I have no issues with them staying where they are as I am a supporter of keeping different specs viable for multiple roles, with a slight lead in their respective percieved areas of the game (pve fury - pvp arms), and I think BF is arms main ticket into this pve-part. Making Deep Wounds stack in some way would perhaps help keep it more in the "feel" of arms, cutting stuff up with big blades. As it is I really feel it overwrites itself too fast/often to be of much use damage-wise.
With the 2.3 changes to the trees however, as Mjollnir said, fury seems to be out of a job. Its gonna depend a lot on how good whirlwind hitting with the offhand will be in practice when people get used to it, along with the reworked Weapon Mastery I think.
Concerning Enrage/Flurry. Unlink them. As it is, it doesn't make any sense. I fully support this.
Contrary to what many feel though, I wouldn't want to see them just switch Enrage and Dual Weild-spec as it would do nothing for anyone wanting to use 2hand-fury.
Better streamlining and minor adjustments should be enough to keep fury where it is, i.e. not looking for a job.
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Originally Posted by Brissa
Whats really strange is how they claim to be itemizing S3 for pvp and T6 for pve when Agility, which is very prominent on T6 is clearly a better pvp stat since it offers both dodge, armor and crit. All the while S3 gets both hit, crit and armor pen.
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As for BF/Deep Wounds/Rend, I've always looked at these as a "bleed-theme" that they seem bent on keeping in arms. I have no issues with them staying where they are as I am a supporter of keeping different specs viable for multiple roles, with a slight lead in their respective percieved areas of the game (pve fury - pvp arms), and I think BF is arms main ticket into this pve-part. Making Deep Wounds stack in some way would perhaps help keep it more in the "feel" of arms, cutting stuff up with big blades. As it is I really feel it overwrites itself too fast/often to be of much use damage-wise.
With the 2.3 changes to the trees however, as Mjollnir said, fury seems to be out of a job. Its gonna depend a lot on how good whirlwind hitting with the offhand will be in practice when people get used to it, along with the reworked Weapon Mastery I think.
Concerning Enrage/Flurry. Unlink them. As it is, it doesn't make any sense. I fully support this.
Contrary to what many feel though, I wouldn't want to see them just switch Enrage and Dual Weild-spec as it would do nothing for anyone wanting to use 2hand-fury.
Better streamlining and minor adjustments should be enough to keep fury where it is, i.e. not looking for a job.
We wont be looking for a job. Losing deathwish hurts, but the new weapon specialisation is very good, coupled with more passive threat and a better WW. Although needs a slow OH to take effect, the DPS loss is pretty minimal, on threat capped fights, its a boost.
The thing im more concerned with is blizzard's reason for moving deathwish is the first place. The official reason they gave simply didn't make sense. And why enrage is still in the PVE tree well..
The thing im more concerned with is blizzard's reason for moving deathwish is the first place. The official reason they gave simply didn't make sense. And why enrage is still in the PVE tree well..
Edited onPatch 2.2.3
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Originally Posted by madrussian
Im not sure I agree with that. STR>pure AP in raids, and even though agi scales with BOK I'd prefer pure crit rating over it. As it is the leather pieces arent years ahead of their plate respectives in terms of dps stats, but when you consider raid buffs I would definately prefer the plate pieces for pure STR.
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Originally Posted by Rishina
We wont be looking for a job. Losing deathwish hurts, but the new weapon specialisation is very good, coupled with more passive threat and a better WW. Although needs a slow OH to take effect, the DPS loss is pretty minimal, on threat capped fights, its a boost.
The thing im more concerned with is blizzard's reason for moving deathwish is the first place. The official reason they gave simply didn't make sense. And why enrage is still in the PVE tree well.. |
Also, how many fights are you really threat capped on? In Hyjal and BT the only one I am *always* threat capped on is Bloodboil. Most of the others, I am never threat capped on...rarely I am on Gorefiend, and Essence of Anger will usually turn on me in the last 1-2% due to sick executes, but at point the fight is over.
What needs to happen is Enrage needs to be moved to Arms. Its a blackhole for talent points and serves no purpose in Fury except to double the cost of Flurry.
Last edited by Hozz : 10/17/07 at 9:29 AM.
Eww, why would you compare midnight chestguard to onslaught? [Heartshatter Breastplate] is lightyears ahead of onslaught.
Edited onPatch 2.2.3
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Originally Posted by madrussian
Eww, why would you compare midnight chestguard to onslaught? [Heartshatter Breastplate] is lightyears ahead of onslaught.
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| [Cursed Vision of Sargeras] is just a freak and completely destroys our T6 hat and [Helm of the Illidari Shatterer]. |
Last edited by Graul : 10/17/07 at 11:00 AM.
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Originally Posted by Emeraude
And unlike what was discussed at Blizzcon, ZA is not the holy grail for fixing Fury itemization, as I'm sure you've all seen from the drops that have been shown so far, as well as the heroic badge plate DPS gear. It's saddening.
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The PvP stuff is very good, especially those with sockets.
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Originally Posted by Grymm
Hmmm. I'm thinking if they tweaked some things, the 2.3 review could be a buff for all warriors.
1. Reitemize T6 to have crit rating and some moderate hit instead of Agil. 2. Redo the T4/5 DPS set bonuses to be useful. 3. Do something to give DW fury warriors some flexibility and maybe a small DPS buff to make use of the aggro redux. Something like upping DW spec to match rogues (75% total oh damage) and Shaman flurry (30% like it used to be). Picking up weapon mastery almost compensates for the loss of DW (-4% dodge on BT, melee, execute if plain nice - probably a 3% increase in total DPS). 4. Along with 3, I'd like to be able to go 17/44 and get WE without giving up 2% hit or something. WE becomes a talent you want that you have to give up something else for. It would be nice to have a core build that had some slop in it for preference points. 5. There are too many dead abilities in the warrior trees. Booming voice, blood craze usually, imp cleave, imp rend, imp MS (usually), imp disciplines, endless rage. The reason PVP warriors spec into Fury was mostly because after you put 33 points in arms, there is just nothing else you want. |
2) The T6 set bonuses suck too. Compare ours to the Rogue T6...night and day.
3) The very first thing they need to do is unlink Enrage from Flurry. Enrage is a black hole for talent points and does nothing for PVE Fury except double the cost of Flurry. We can not even take advantage of the 'awesome' changes we got because they took away 1 talent point in Deathwish and added 4 more in Weapon Mastery and Imp WW (I know its not a new talent, but the base ability is much better making 2/2 compelling for the first time). Fun fact: 2/2 Weapon Mastery and 2/2 Imp WW probably do not add up to the DPS you lose from intelligent Deathwish usage.
4) See above.
5) Agree here, sort of. Every tree has some 'dead' talents. They really only need to get rid of the ones that know clear thinking person would ever take. Like Improved Rend, etc.
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Originally Posted by Alhena
They could make the vast majority of the burning community hate go away by doing two things.
1. Unlinking Enrage from Flurry, thus saving Fury warriors having to stick 5 points into a talent that does not help us in any meaningful way. 2. Swapping Improved Slam with Blood Frenzy. BF seems to fit the fury tree better thematically anyway, and it cements Fury as the PvE dps spec. One effect of these changes that hasn't been much discussed is that the swap of DW and Improved Intercept means that nearly all the powerhouse PvP talents are now in Arms. So put the PvE raid damage buff talent in Fury. Blizzard should finish specializing our trees, and stop pretending that Fury being PvP viable is a goal of theirs. If I wanna arena, I'll just respec. It's not like I'm not swimming in gold. |
#2 would be AWESOME. I am hesitant to push for that though as it pretty much would negate the only reason to bring an Arms Warrior to a raid though.
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Originally Posted by Hozz
#2 would be AWESOME. I am hesitant to push for that though as it pretty much would negate the only reason to bring an Arms Warrior to a raid though.
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BB ran Vashj last night, on our kill attempt I had semi-optimal DW usage, having the group LW time his drums during the first DW, and drums catching the tail part of the execute spam DW (they were still on CD). I plan to parse this data to find out a more concrete, real world value of DW.
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Originally Posted by Hozz
#2 would be AWESOME. I am hesitant to push for that though as it pretty much would negate the only reason to bring an Arms Warrior to a raid though.
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I'm trying to think of other classes which have talents that require a talent from another tree to set a precedence for this, but I'm drawing a blank. Can anyone think of some?
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Originally Posted by Steveharris
I don't think Blizzard would ever do this, simply because it involves a talent from another tree. Suppose someone wanted to be Fury/Prot? They would need to DPS in battle stance to keep Rend up for BF. As it is, Fury/Prot is gimped, but with the change to Defiance and TM, it seems the powers that be envision Warriors with at least a few points in Prot, regardless of their main tree.
I'm trying to think of other classes which have talents that require a talent from another tree to set a precedence for this, but I'm drawing a blank. Can anyone think of some? |
"Your Faerie Fire spell increases the chance the target will be hit by melee and ranged attacks by 1/2/3%."
Although it appears they've changed the wording, this talent used to affect Feral Faerie Fire. (Yes, that would require a 33+/21+ build). I'm not sure if Feral FF is affected anymore, and I don't really think anyone cares. Most balance druids don't take this talent anyway, it cuts into their points for Sublety.
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Originally Posted by Steveharris
As it is, Fury/Prot is gimped
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Wow Web Stats
The individuals who are dps are a purebred spec with gear that outclasses my Heroic/2 SSC item dps set.
And I can't count how many times I've heard 'ya but you'll need to spec either tanking or dps cause hybrids won't cut it when you get to the next level of content' ... Judge a spec on its merits, not on any bandwagon motto.
Yes, but Faerie Fire was already trainable; the talent improved it, and applying it was something that you'd normally do anyway. You didn't have to go into Feral to get FF, then go up to Improved FF in Balance.
I suppose you could make the argument that Rend is trainable, and to just use that. But having Improved Zerker stance and Improved WW in Fury, then Improved Rend in Arms makes them seem...opposed? Unless they change Rend to be useable in all three stances, having to stance dance every 10 seconds (or however long it is) to reapply Rend sounds infuriating at best.
I suppose you could make the argument that Rend is trainable, and to just use that. But having Improved Zerker stance and Improved WW in Fury, then Improved Rend in Arms makes them seem...opposed? Unless they change Rend to be useable in all three stances, having to stance dance every 10 seconds (or however long it is) to reapply Rend sounds infuriating at best.
Any balance druid that doesnt take imp FF is a GIANT waste of a raid spot. Thats the main reason to bring one, I cant believe theyd try to say that any other 3pt spenditure adds more over all raid dps. If you are running with these players they are selflish and definatly not working for the team. In addition, giving the tank 3% hit helps a ton with the moonkins shitty threat.
@blood frenzy. Even if its in the fury tree, if you're going to take it you really need impale. You should have impale anyone imo.
@blood frenzy. Even if its in the fury tree, if you're going to take it you really need impale. You should have impale anyone imo.
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Originally Posted by Mjollnir
I'm curious to learn where you are drawing this 'conclusion' from? I have MTed every boss in SSC/TK with the exception of Kael, albeit we usually go with the full prots. Concerning dps (in my 3/41/17):
Wow Web Stats The individuals who are dps are a purebred spec with gear that outclasses my Heroic/2 SSC item dps set. And I can't count how many times I've heard 'ya but you'll need to spec either tanking or dps cause hybrids won't cut it when you get to the next level of content' ... Judge a spec on its merits, not on any bandwagon motto. |
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Originally Posted by Steveharris
I don't think Blizzard would ever do this, simply because it involves a talent from another tree. Suppose someone wanted to be Fury/Prot? They would need to DPS in battle stance to keep Rend up for BF. As it is, Fury/Prot is gimped, but with the change to Defiance and TM, it seems the powers that be envision Warriors with at least a few points in Prot,
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I'm talking about switching BF to Fury. I'm pretty sure the only two wayt to keep BF up are through rend and Deep Wounds. I'm also pretty sure Deep Wounds isn't in Fury. Moving BF to Fury would then require 17 points in Arms, eliminating Fury/Prot...unless you wanted to switch stances and Rend (which, as you say, is a massive waste of a debuff slot).
Basically, BF to Fury won't happen unless they move Deep Wounds/Impale to Fury as well.
Basically, BF to Fury won't happen unless they move Deep Wounds/Impale to Fury as well.
Rend would be completely worth a debuff spot and stance switch if it allowed a fury warrior to put up BF. You wouldn't need impale or deep wounds (which isn't 17 deep, by the way). It would be annoying and, in my opinion, stupid, but it's the same number of debuffs as Deep Wounds/BF.
IF one were going down that road: move enrage out of fury. Unlink impale and deep wounds, move deep wounds and BF to fury, linked. Let arms have impale and death wish.
IF one were going down that road: move enrage out of fury. Unlink impale and deep wounds, move deep wounds and BF to fury, linked. Let arms have impale and death wish.
Okay, so at least 11 points in Arms for Deep Wounds. I already feel like a shit chucking chimp pounding my keyboard for BT/WW/Rampage/HS/shouts/vent/typing etc. Throwing in a Battle>Rend>Zerker sequence in there would be enough to make many people not want to take BF as Fury, regardless of how powerful it is.
EDIT: That sounds like a much better suggestion.
EDIT: That sounds like a much better suggestion.
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Originally Posted by Birdemani
The thing that frustrates me is that after three years we are still fighting to have a decent fury set that is all Plate. Nearly every release of new gear sees gaping holes in itemization and often has us stealing gear from rogues or hunters. There doesn't seem to be an avenue to even get that frustration out. During TBC beta I submitted dozens of tickets due to the lack of dps plate upgrades along with stats in the wrong area (too much stam, use of agil instead of crit, etc). At the end of the day they just need to balance out crit, strength, hit and enough stam to keep us alive; then toss in some nice flavor stats here and there (-armor, haste, +bonus damage to xxx).
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Originally Posted by madrussian
i dunno bird, the mid-low end raiding itemization is kinda crappy but once you get into the high end(hyjal/bt) there is plenty of plate items that blow leather/mail out of the water for fury dps. dreadboots, heartshatter bp, illidari helm, archi legs, red belt of battle. a lot of those items are perfect for dw fury, but take a lot of effort to gather. so the itemization IS there, just not easily accessable.
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Not to nit-pick or anything, but why in god's name don't they buff Rend? It's a little ridiculous that a priest racial(Star Shards), while crap, is going to be more powerful then a base Warrior ability next patch.
In a world where Corruption/Curse of Agony can take me down to 60% of my life in passing, I kinda wish Rend would do more meaningful and annoying damage over time. It would hardly be overpowered to do so.
In a world where Corruption/Curse of Agony can take me down to 60% of my life in passing, I kinda wish Rend would do more meaningful and annoying damage over time. It would hardly be overpowered to do so.
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Originally Posted by Hozz
#2 would be AWESOME. I am hesitant to push for that though as it pretty much would negate the only reason to bring an Arms Warrior to a raid though.
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As for moving Blood Frenzy, giving Fury Deep Wounds is probably too much to hope for, but honestly, I'd be totally fine with it with no other changes.
Fury/Protection warriors give up PvE damage in order to improve tanking ability. Maybe this would be one of those things they have to give up?
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Originally Posted by Hozz
True, those are good pieces. But Midnight Chestguard and Cursed Vision of Sargeras are the best in their respective slots, and they are both leather. The best bracers we can get are leather, Deadly Cuffs. The best belt, although Red Belt of Belt is superb for its ilevel, also leather.
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Originally Posted by Steveharris
I'm talking about switching BF to Fury. I'm pretty sure the only two wayt to keep BF up are through rend and Deep Wounds. I'm also pretty sure Deep Wounds isn't in Fury. Moving BF to Fury would then require 17 points in Arms, eliminating Fury/Prot...unless you wanted to switch stances and Rend (which, as you say, is a massive waste of a debuff slot).
Basically, BF to Fury won't happen unless they move Deep Wounds/Impale to Fury as well. |
Sword Spec increasing in usefulness?
Hi guys, been reading some time here, first post, so be gentle please
Yesterday while trying to fall asleep a thought occured to me. With the recent changes to the trees, especially Weapon Mastery, sword Spec might grow superior to poleaxe spec. Though it might be quite obvious why I come to this oppinion, let me elaborate
The reason I until now prefered poleaxe over sword was, beside "ZOMG MOAR CRIT IN TEH SHEET!" the reliability. An increase in critrate is always an increase in dps when it occurs (assuming you´re not critcapping ). However, sword specs extra attack had a chance to miss, be dodged or rarely be parried. Reaching the hitcap as a Slambuild is a no brainer, parrying isnt a real factor so basically your sword spec hit could hit, crit, glance or be dodged. Now we can almost eliminate the dodgefactor with some little weaponskill and most importantly Weapon Mastery.
I´m not too familiar with the hit tables, so i don´t know the effects crit and glancing have on each other, so I´ll just ignore glancings for the sake of my point.
Axe spec gives you 5% more crit, flat out. Sword Spec gives you basically 5% of an extra attack, which in terms of dmg comes out nearly the same with 1% chance to be dodged.But what if the sword spec crits? This would equal triple dmg on a sword spec, and if the hit causing it was a crit anyway quadruple dmg!
Maybe the effects arent as big as I hope it would be. Maybe one of you can shed some light on the point of glancings...
Yesterday while trying to fall asleep a thought occured to me. With the recent changes to the trees, especially Weapon Mastery, sword Spec might grow superior to poleaxe spec. Though it might be quite obvious why I come to this oppinion, let me elaborate
The reason I until now prefered poleaxe over sword was, beside "ZOMG MOAR CRIT IN TEH SHEET!" the reliability. An increase in critrate is always an increase in dps when it occurs (assuming you´re not critcapping
). However, sword specs extra attack had a chance to miss, be dodged or rarely be parried. Reaching the hitcap as a Slambuild is a no brainer, parrying isnt a real factor so basically your sword spec hit could hit, crit, glance or be dodged. Now we can almost eliminate the dodgefactor with some little weaponskill and most importantly Weapon Mastery.I´m not too familiar with the hit tables, so i don´t know the effects crit and glancing have on each other, so I´ll just ignore glancings for the sake of my point.
Axe spec gives you 5% more crit, flat out. Sword Spec gives you basically 5% of an extra attack, which in terms of dmg comes out nearly the same with 1% chance to be dodged.But what if the sword spec crits? This would equal triple dmg on a sword spec, and if the hit causing it was a crit anyway quadruple dmg!
Maybe the effects arent as big as I hope it would be. Maybe one of you can shed some light on the point of glancings...
I have not been past Prince/Nightbane in TBC (I play pretty casually by standards here, and mainly pvp) so I'm gonna try not to go in over my head here. A few thoughts however;
Keep agility away from the pvp-armor please, it's worse for pvp than it is for pve. That said, I too would like to see straight ratings instead of agility on pve-gear.
As for BF/Deep Wounds/Rend, I've always looked at these as a "bleed-theme" that they seem bent on keeping in arms. I have no issues with them staying where they are as I am a supporter of keeping different specs viable for multiple roles, with a slight lead in their respective percieved areas of the game (pve fury - pvp arms), and I think BF is arms main ticket into this pve-part. Making Deep Wounds stack in some way would perhaps help keep it more in the "feel" of arms, cutting stuff up with big blades. As it is I really feel it overwrites itself too fast/often to be of much use damage-wise.
With the 2.3 changes to the trees however, as Mjollnir said, fury seems to be out of a job. Its gonna depend a lot on how good whirlwind hitting with the offhand will be in practice when people get used to it, along with the reworked Weapon Mastery I think.
Concerning Enrage/Flurry. Unlink them. As it is, it doesn't make any sense. I fully support this.
Contrary to what many feel though, I wouldn't want to see them just switch Enrage and Dual Weild-spec as it would do nothing for anyone wanting to use 2hand-fury.
Better streamlining and minor adjustments should be enough to keep fury where it is, i.e. not looking for a job.
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Originally Posted by Brissa
Whats really strange is how they claim to be itemizing S3 for pvp and T6 for pve when Agility, which is very prominent on T6 is clearly a better pvp stat since it offers both dodge, armor and crit. All the while S3 gets both hit, crit and armor pen.
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As for BF/Deep Wounds/Rend, I've always looked at these as a "bleed-theme" that they seem bent on keeping in arms. I have no issues with them staying where they are as I am a supporter of keeping different specs viable for multiple roles, with a slight lead in their respective percieved areas of the game (pve fury - pvp arms), and I think BF is arms main ticket into this pve-part. Making Deep Wounds stack in some way would perhaps help keep it more in the "feel" of arms, cutting stuff up with big blades. As it is I really feel it overwrites itself too fast/often to be of much use damage-wise.
With the 2.3 changes to the trees however, as Mjollnir said, fury seems to be out of a job. Its gonna depend a lot on how good whirlwind hitting with the offhand will be in practice when people get used to it, along with the reworked Weapon Mastery I think.
Concerning Enrage/Flurry. Unlink them. As it is, it doesn't make any sense. I fully support this.
Contrary to what many feel though, I wouldn't want to see them just switch Enrage and Dual Weild-spec as it would do nothing for anyone wanting to use 2hand-fury.
Better streamlining and minor adjustments should be enough to keep fury where it is, i.e. not looking for a job.
We wont be looking for a job. Losing deathwish hurts, but the new weapon specialisation is very good, coupled with more passive threat and a better WW. Although needs a slow OH to take effect, the DPS loss is pretty minimal, on threat capped fights, its a boost.
The thing im more concerned with is blizzard's reason for moving deathwish is the first place. The official reason they gave simply didn't make sense. And why enrage is still in the PVE tree well..
The thing im more concerned with is blizzard's reason for moving deathwish is the first place. The official reason they gave simply didn't make sense. And why enrage is still in the PVE tree well..
Edited onPatch 2.2.3
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Originally Posted by madrussian
Im not sure I agree with that. STR>pure AP in raids, and even though agi scales with BOK I'd prefer pure crit rating over it. As it is the leather pieces arent years ahead of their plate respectives in terms of dps stats, but when you consider raid buffs I would definately prefer the plate pieces for pure STR.
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Originally Posted by Rishina
We wont be looking for a job. Losing deathwish hurts, but the new weapon specialisation is very good, coupled with more passive threat and a better WW. Although needs a slow OH to take effect, the DPS loss is pretty minimal, on threat capped fights, its a boost.
The thing im more concerned with is blizzard's reason for moving deathwish is the first place. The official reason they gave simply didn't make sense. And why enrage is still in the PVE tree well.. |
Also, how many fights are you really threat capped on? In Hyjal and BT the only one I am *always* threat capped on is Bloodboil. Most of the others, I am never threat capped on...rarely I am on Gorefiend, and Essence of Anger will usually turn on me in the last 1-2% due to sick executes, but at point the fight is over.
What needs to happen is Enrage needs to be moved to Arms. Its a blackhole for talent points and serves no purpose in Fury except to double the cost of Flurry.
Last edited by Hozz : 10/17/07 at 9:29 AM.
Eww, why would you compare midnight chestguard to onslaught? [Heartshatter Breastplate] is lightyears ahead of onslaught.
Edited onPatch 2.2.3
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Originally Posted by madrussian
Eww, why would you compare midnight chestguard to onslaught? [Heartshatter Breastplate] is lightyears ahead of onslaught.
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| [Cursed Vision of Sargeras] is just a freak and completely destroys our T6 hat and [Helm of the Illidari Shatterer]. |
Last edited by Graul : 10/17/07 at 11:00 AM.
This is just me speculating but I'm wondering if some of Blizzard's hesitation to unlink the "no brainer" talents as we tend to think of them is an unwillingness to have so few linked talents in the warrior trees. I think they like the whole talent linking deal and what would be left if they broke Enrage-->Flurry? Sweeping strikes to Bloodthirst?
Also the Weapon Mastery talent is growing on me. If it really will be -4% to dodge that will be very nice for those dodged specials that plague all of us. I'd still really hate to lose Death Wish, though.
Also the Weapon Mastery talent is growing on me. If it really will be -4% to dodge that will be very nice for those dodged specials that plague all of us. I'd still really hate to lose Death Wish, though.
If they like the idea of linked talents then why not give us a useful 5 pointer to replace enrage. That would make the most sense, something like chance on hit to gain 200 armor penetration, stacks 3x lasts for 15 seconds. It wouldn't be that OP, but it would also make fury alot more viable for PVP.
As it stands, arms is the best in PVP by a mile and not to far behind PVE wise, which isn't really fair.
As it stands, arms is the best in PVP by a mile and not to far behind PVE wise, which isn't really fair.
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Originally Posted by Graul
I don't see how 1.2% crit means it completely destroys. It's better, but not by a large margin. It's definitely not big enough to feel any regret over picking up the Illidari. The spreadsheet shows that 1.2% crit being 15 DPS...although I don't see how.
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Originally Posted by Rishina
If they like the idea of linked talents then why not give us a useful 5 pointer to replace enrage. That would make the most sense, something like chance on hit to gain 200 armor penetration, stacks 3x lasts for 15 seconds. It wouldn't be that OP, but it would also make fury alot more viable for PVP.
As it stands, arms is the best in PVP by a mile and not to far behind PVE wise, which isn't really fair. |
I've been biting my tongue the last few days waiting for the dust to settle before i weight in on the changes coming up, and i won't have a full grasp of the difference until i actually play with it in a raid, but here are my opinions so far.
DW and SS swap....<sigh> On demand burst...gone. Really nice when you were in execute range, or the mob had a "vulnerable" phase (demon form Leo is a good example). I can see the SS and new WW combo being deadly in some multi-mob situations, but again, mostly trash. We don't raid and have issues with trash though, it's bosses that you want all the real hitting power for, and what we gear/play for.
I've got to say that I'm eagerly awaiting the new WW though, even on single mobs it should be nice (I know the math shows it's only going to be a 2-3% increase in DPS, but i run slow/slow, so i should get the most out of it). It will be especially nice for improving the rage efficiency of WW in low rage situations. A good example of this is Vash'j, I was assigned a quadrant and nothing would suck more then when i dropped 25 rage on a whirlwind that hit for around 550...such a waste of rage.
Weapon Mastery. Sounds good, but I have no idea where I'm going to get the points for it. Which leads me to my next point, Enrage and Flurry. UNLINK THEM, for the love of god. Spending 10 talent points for a 25% haste is nice and all...but shaman spend 5 for 30%, getting better then double our return per talent point in a PvE situation.
BF moving into fury would be nice, but i could live with just enrage/flurry unlinked.
I really don't know what blizzard is thinking with these changes. All the cries about warriors up until now have been "Arms is over powered in PvP, Fury is okay as it is in PvE and sucks in PvP".....then the pseudo-buff arms and nerf fury? What's that all about?
DW and SS swap....<sigh> On demand burst...gone. Really nice when you were in execute range, or the mob had a "vulnerable" phase (demon form Leo is a good example). I can see the SS and new WW combo being deadly in some multi-mob situations, but again, mostly trash. We don't raid and have issues with trash though, it's bosses that you want all the real hitting power for, and what we gear/play for.
I've got to say that I'm eagerly awaiting the new WW though, even on single mobs it should be nice (I know the math shows it's only going to be a 2-3% increase in DPS, but i run slow/slow, so i should get the most out of it). It will be especially nice for improving the rage efficiency of WW in low rage situations. A good example of this is Vash'j, I was assigned a quadrant and nothing would suck more then when i dropped 25 rage on a whirlwind that hit for around 550...such a waste of rage.
Weapon Mastery. Sounds good, but I have no idea where I'm going to get the points for it. Which leads me to my next point, Enrage and Flurry. UNLINK THEM, for the love of god. Spending 10 talent points for a 25% haste is nice and all...but shaman spend 5 for 30%, getting better then double our return per talent point in a PvE situation.
BF moving into fury would be nice, but i could live with just enrage/flurry unlinked.
I really don't know what blizzard is thinking with these changes. All the cries about warriors up until now have been "Arms is over powered in PvP, Fury is okay as it is in PvE and sucks in PvP".....then the pseudo-buff arms and nerf fury? What's that all about?
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Originally Posted by Rishina
The thing im more concerned with is blizzard's reason for moving deathwish is the first place. The official reason they gave simply didn't make sense. And why enrage is still in the PVE tree well..
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Kalgan stated that he would not be buffing 41 arms to the point where it was better than those 2 talents so the alternative was moving them or giving them for free to all warriors. I think they're gonna see how the current changes will work out and continue to tweak untill both specs work well for their purpose (fury being the pure dps tree, and arms being the pvp/utility tree).
Are there any talent trees of any class that have only one linked set of talents? Any with 0? Even if there aren't good talents to link they might just have this internal model of "MUST BE AT LEAST 2 LINKED SETS OF TALENTS PER TREE". There might also be a completely different reason they're not telling us. They're most certainly aware of the situation and I sure as hell don't understand their reasons for not changing it.
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Originally Posted by LodeRunner
Are there any talent trees of any class that have only one linked set of talents? Any with 0? Even if there aren't good talents to link they might just have this internal model of "MUST BE AT LEAST 2 LINKED SETS OF TALENTS PER TREE". There might also be a completely different reason they're not telling us. They're most certainly aware of the situation and I sure as hell don't understand their reasons for not changing it.
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Many of the talents at least off hand are sort of no brainers that are linked. Shadow priests for example have a very long linked set starting at VE. Imp ve to the side, shadow form further down, and VT linked from shadow form.
But would anyone NOT get VE/SF/and VT?
Clearly not every class is like that, but from memory I don't think any are quite as poor in concept as Enrage-->Flurry.
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Originally Posted by Calgar
.but shaman spend 5 for 30%, getting better then double our return per talent point in a PvE situation.
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I would say 5% more mana is better than 25% more damage when dead in a pve situation albeit marginally. For me, enrage is actually a tanking in my DPS gear talent which is generally bad idea anyway. If I'm tanking in DPS gear, the mob I'm holding is either a complete joke and I'm just waiting for it to die so I can swap back to DPS or our tank went down, I'm filling in, and I'm going to die when my shield wall runs out anyway.
@Hamiburg; It's a flawed comparison, but it is somewhat accurate. Shaman start with less and logically have to get more out of their talents to be competitive....but it really pains me to see better talents, easier to get, lower in the tree.
I don't want to get into a "Well unbridled wrath sucks as much as the +5% mana talent". "Well you get your 5% crit talent before we do!", type of discussion. It just seems like there's very little waste in the enhancement tree (Other then the awful 10-15 gap with only 2h spec and enhancing totems really being helpful) compared to fury. You aren't stuck with a 5 point "LOL Arms PvP talent" as a pre-req for your flurry, you get 9% hit from 6 talent points compared to our 3% for 3 (Mainly because of itemization issues i'd assume...we dont need int/spirit/mp5) and the rest of our talents pretty much match up other wise.
And there is almost NO case that can be made for enrage being useful in PvE...the only time i get crit and NOT 1 shot is usually AoE trash like solarian packs, Solarian herself and tidewalker...and it's a token increase in damage in the long run because of that. If it had a chance to proc when WE crit (like 5% chance when we crit or something...1/2/3/4/5% chance on crit to increase damage by 5/10/15/20/25% for 10 seconds or something...of course criting would become insane when stacked with flurry then) then it wouldn't be COMPLETELY worthless and we wouldn't be whining as much as we are. I mean, if there wasn't anything else to take we wouldn't care as much either...but we are missing out on Weapon Mastery, Imp whirlwind or points in dual wield for....utter crap.
To give you an example of how much this sucks...Imagine if imp ghost wolf was 5 points and was needed for you to get flurry.
I don't want to get into a "Well unbridled wrath sucks as much as the +5% mana talent". "Well you get your 5% crit talent before we do!", type of discussion. It just seems like there's very little waste in the enhancement tree (Other then the awful 10-15 gap with only 2h spec and enhancing totems really being helpful) compared to fury. You aren't stuck with a 5 point "LOL Arms PvP talent" as a pre-req for your flurry, you get 9% hit from 6 talent points compared to our 3% for 3 (Mainly because of itemization issues i'd assume...we dont need int/spirit/mp5) and the rest of our talents pretty much match up other wise.
And there is almost NO case that can be made for enrage being useful in PvE...the only time i get crit and NOT 1 shot is usually AoE trash like solarian packs, Solarian herself and tidewalker...and it's a token increase in damage in the long run because of that. If it had a chance to proc when WE crit (like 5% chance when we crit or something...1/2/3/4/5% chance on crit to increase damage by 5/10/15/20/25% for 10 seconds or something...of course criting would become insane when stacked with flurry then) then it wouldn't be COMPLETELY worthless and we wouldn't be whining as much as we are. I mean, if there wasn't anything else to take we wouldn't care as much either...but we are missing out on Weapon Mastery, Imp whirlwind or points in dual wield for....utter crap.
To give you an example of how much this sucks...Imagine if imp ghost wolf was 5 points and was needed for you to get flurry.
| you get 9% hit from 6 talent points compared to our 3% for 3 (Mainly because of itemization issues i'd assume...we dont need int/spirit/mp5) and the rest of our talents pretty much match up other wise. |
Enrage is horrible in raid situations, but it's extremely good while leveling and grinding and in non-arena PVP. The real truth is the rest of the talents in the tree are extremely good and scraping for points simply accentuates how much Enrage is bad in raids. If there was a dead zone in the tree but enrage sat there (like there is at 6-10 points, and I'm not suggesting to move it there), nobody would complain because it was just something you had to take to get Flurry anyway.
Edited onPatch 2.2.3
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Originally Posted by Grymm
I would say 5% more mana is better than 25% more damage when dead in a pve situation albeit marginally.
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Hint: I get almost 10x more mana from a mana pot than I do from that talent |
Last edited by Malan : 10/17/07 at 2:43 PM.
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Originally Posted by gia
The official reasoning behind the deathwish and imp. intercept change is to open up 41 arms talent builds for pvp warriors.
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Originally Posted by gia
The official reasoning behind the deathwish and imp. intercept change is to open up 41 arms talent builds for pvp warriors.
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Do they really think this will get PvP warriors to spec the 41 pt arms talent? Hell no it won't because right now PvP warriors are all wanking off to idea that they will be able to pull off a DW->SS->Intercept->WW combo without stance dancing.
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Originally Posted by Randor
PvP warriors will not spec for Endless Rage. If it was something like Omen of Clarity, perhaps but PvP warriors are still going to spec for Enrage.
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The point though is that not taking imp. intercept for arena was downright insane, Death Wish actually is not as important after they made it not stack. The patch tries to fix the fact that no sane warrior was ever gonna spec beyond 35 arms, I'm not really sure if it's gonna be successful, but I'm at least gonna try endless rage and improved MS and see how they play before deciding, further changes may be necessary to make them really viable though.
Note: I'm not actually arguing that deep arms will be superior after 2.3, just that it will be possible to spec without getting laughed at.
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Originally Posted by gia
Note: I'm not actually arguing that deep arms will be superior after 2.3, just that it will be possible to spec without getting laughed at.
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Originally Posted by LodeRunner
No, they'll be bitterly mocked for giving up a buffed Sweeping Strikes. I'll do my share of mocking at least.
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It seems like (unless expertise is as powerful as pre-TBC weaponskill) the gap between Fury and Arms has been closed even more for single target raid DPS.
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Originally Posted by Hozz
We can not even take advantage of the 'awesome' changes we got because they took away 1 talent point in Deathwish and added 4 more in Weapon Mastery
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Originally Posted by Hozz
#2 would be AWESOME. I am hesitant to push for that though as it pretty much would negate the only reason to bring an Arms Warrior to a raid though.
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With the new changes, it seems that a slow OH will be the way to go to take advantage of these changes. But I'm wondering if having a 2.6 OH means we should opt for more hit, and if so, how much?
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Originally Posted by Steveharris
Buffed SS? I'm not sure how 2H warriors are going to pull 10 hits per second out of their ass, but I'd be impressed
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hamstring won't be a waste of a charge now, either. This is definitely an overall buff to the ability.
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Originally Posted by Darkrenown
I don't know about other warriors, but BF is the only reason I raid as arms.
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Originally Posted by Darkrenown
What, is WM confirmed as 4 points?
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Originally Posted by Fogbug
Fury is supposed to do a lot more single target damage than arms and BF is supposed to bridge that gap. The problem is that the current pre-2.3 iteration of fury doesn't do enough damage
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Hozz: Oh, ok. It was just you were the 2nd person in 2 pages to refer to WM as a 4 pointer.
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Originally Posted by Darkrenown
I'm not too sure why you felt the need to tell me that. All I meant was if BF moved to fury and my guild no longer wanted an arms warrior in their raids I wouldn't care since I'd be following BF to fury. I suspect the same would be the case for most raiding arms warriors, certainly those who specced it to help their raid rather than save on arena respecs.
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Edited onPatch 2.2.3
Blizzard doesn't want to have all goodies in one tree because they wan't the talent allocation to be something special to every character. For example, look at the Rogue talent trees. After the patch they'll be able to go every tree for their PvP spec but it'll still be different to a PvE spec because of all the small talent choices, and even with a spec like 41/20 you have to choose around 15 points from many useful talents. All this results in a near impossibility to find two totally equal specced Rogues who didn't copy someone else's spec. WoW would be boring if talent trees didn't work this way and I'm pretty happy with Arms and Fury Warriors being viable damage dealers.
Last edited by Hidden : 10/18/07 at 2:35 AM.
But this is exactly what they have done now. They put all the necessary talents in the arms tree for PvP so that a PvP warrior can get all the skills he needs with 33 points, leaving the rest to get either sweeping strikes or go for last stand + concussion blow.
I'm totally confused by this change more than anything else, I don't know where they came up with it. No one had issues with arms warriors and fury warriors were ok (threat reduction we've been expecting for a while now) - now they've gimped fury and given arms anything and everything they could possibly want.
I'm hoping they'll revert this sweeping strikes - deathwish change. Most people don't realize how much this will screw us. Every single other class has a burst DPS ability (or more). Now we have trinkets, yay.
I'm totally confused by this change more than anything else, I don't know where they came up with it. No one had issues with arms warriors and fury warriors were ok (threat reduction we've been expecting for a while now) - now they've gimped fury and given arms anything and everything they could possibly want.
I'm hoping they'll revert this sweeping strikes - deathwish change. Most people don't realize how much this will screw us. Every single other class has a burst DPS ability (or more). Now we have trinkets, yay.
This is just me speculating but I'm wondering if some of Blizzard's hesitation to unlink the "no brainer" talents as we tend to think of them is an unwillingness to have so few linked talents in the warrior trees. I think they like the whole talent linking deal and what would be left if they broke Enrage-->Flurry? Sweeping strikes to Bloodthirst?
Also the Weapon Mastery talent is growing on me. If it really will be -4% to dodge that will be very nice for those dodged specials that plague all of us. I'd still really hate to lose Death Wish, though.
Also the Weapon Mastery talent is growing on me. If it really will be -4% to dodge that will be very nice for those dodged specials that plague all of us. I'd still really hate to lose Death Wish, though.
If they like the idea of linked talents then why not give us a useful 5 pointer to replace enrage. That would make the most sense, something like chance on hit to gain 200 armor penetration, stacks 3x lasts for 15 seconds. It wouldn't be that OP, but it would also make fury alot more viable for PVP.
As it stands, arms is the best in PVP by a mile and not to far behind PVE wise, which isn't really fair.
As it stands, arms is the best in PVP by a mile and not to far behind PVE wise, which isn't really fair.
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Originally Posted by Graul
I don't see how 1.2% crit means it completely destroys. It's better, but not by a large margin. It's definitely not big enough to feel any regret over picking up the Illidari. The spreadsheet shows that 1.2% crit being 15 DPS...although I don't see how.
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Originally Posted by Rishina
If they like the idea of linked talents then why not give us a useful 5 pointer to replace enrage. That would make the most sense, something like chance on hit to gain 200 armor penetration, stacks 3x lasts for 15 seconds. It wouldn't be that OP, but it would also make fury alot more viable for PVP.
As it stands, arms is the best in PVP by a mile and not to far behind PVE wise, which isn't really fair. |
I've been biting my tongue the last few days waiting for the dust to settle before i weight in on the changes coming up, and i won't have a full grasp of the difference until i actually play with it in a raid, but here are my opinions so far.
DW and SS swap....<sigh> On demand burst...gone. Really nice when you were in execute range, or the mob had a "vulnerable" phase (demon form Leo is a good example). I can see the SS and new WW combo being deadly in some multi-mob situations, but again, mostly trash. We don't raid and have issues with trash though, it's bosses that you want all the real hitting power for, and what we gear/play for.
I've got to say that I'm eagerly awaiting the new WW though, even on single mobs it should be nice (I know the math shows it's only going to be a 2-3% increase in DPS, but i run slow/slow, so i should get the most out of it). It will be especially nice for improving the rage efficiency of WW in low rage situations. A good example of this is Vash'j, I was assigned a quadrant and nothing would suck more then when i dropped 25 rage on a whirlwind that hit for around 550...such a waste of rage.
Weapon Mastery. Sounds good, but I have no idea where I'm going to get the points for it. Which leads me to my next point, Enrage and Flurry. UNLINK THEM, for the love of god. Spending 10 talent points for a 25% haste is nice and all...but shaman spend 5 for 30%, getting better then double our return per talent point in a PvE situation.
BF moving into fury would be nice, but i could live with just enrage/flurry unlinked.
I really don't know what blizzard is thinking with these changes. All the cries about warriors up until now have been "Arms is over powered in PvP, Fury is okay as it is in PvE and sucks in PvP".....then the pseudo-buff arms and nerf fury? What's that all about?
DW and SS swap....<sigh> On demand burst...gone. Really nice when you were in execute range, or the mob had a "vulnerable" phase (demon form Leo is a good example). I can see the SS and new WW combo being deadly in some multi-mob situations, but again, mostly trash. We don't raid and have issues with trash though, it's bosses that you want all the real hitting power for, and what we gear/play for.
I've got to say that I'm eagerly awaiting the new WW though, even on single mobs it should be nice (I know the math shows it's only going to be a 2-3% increase in DPS, but i run slow/slow, so i should get the most out of it). It will be especially nice for improving the rage efficiency of WW in low rage situations. A good example of this is Vash'j, I was assigned a quadrant and nothing would suck more then when i dropped 25 rage on a whirlwind that hit for around 550...such a waste of rage.
Weapon Mastery. Sounds good, but I have no idea where I'm going to get the points for it. Which leads me to my next point, Enrage and Flurry. UNLINK THEM, for the love of god. Spending 10 talent points for a 25% haste is nice and all...but shaman spend 5 for 30%, getting better then double our return per talent point in a PvE situation.
BF moving into fury would be nice, but i could live with just enrage/flurry unlinked.
I really don't know what blizzard is thinking with these changes. All the cries about warriors up until now have been "Arms is over powered in PvP, Fury is okay as it is in PvE and sucks in PvP".....then the pseudo-buff arms and nerf fury? What's that all about?
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Originally Posted by Rishina
The thing im more concerned with is blizzard's reason for moving deathwish is the first place. The official reason they gave simply didn't make sense. And why enrage is still in the PVE tree well..
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Kalgan stated that he would not be buffing 41 arms to the point where it was better than those 2 talents so the alternative was moving them or giving them for free to all warriors. I think they're gonna see how the current changes will work out and continue to tweak untill both specs work well for their purpose (fury being the pure dps tree, and arms being the pvp/utility tree).
Are there any talent trees of any class that have only one linked set of talents? Any with 0? Even if there aren't good talents to link they might just have this internal model of "MUST BE AT LEAST 2 LINKED SETS OF TALENTS PER TREE". There might also be a completely different reason they're not telling us. They're most certainly aware of the situation and I sure as hell don't understand their reasons for not changing it.
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Originally Posted by LodeRunner
Are there any talent trees of any class that have only one linked set of talents? Any with 0? Even if there aren't good talents to link they might just have this internal model of "MUST BE AT LEAST 2 LINKED SETS OF TALENTS PER TREE". There might also be a completely different reason they're not telling us. They're most certainly aware of the situation and I sure as hell don't understand their reasons for not changing it.
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Many of the talents at least off hand are sort of no brainers that are linked. Shadow priests for example have a very long linked set starting at VE. Imp ve to the side, shadow form further down, and VT linked from shadow form.
But would anyone NOT get VE/SF/and VT?
Clearly not every class is like that, but from memory I don't think any are quite as poor in concept as Enrage-->Flurry.
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Originally Posted by Calgar
.but shaman spend 5 for 30%, getting better then double our return per talent point in a PvE situation.
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I would say 5% more mana is better than 25% more damage when dead in a pve situation albeit marginally. For me, enrage is actually a tanking in my DPS gear talent which is generally bad idea anyway. If I'm tanking in DPS gear, the mob I'm holding is either a complete joke and I'm just waiting for it to die so I can swap back to DPS or our tank went down, I'm filling in, and I'm going to die when my shield wall runs out anyway.
@Hamiburg; It's a flawed comparison, but it is somewhat accurate. Shaman start with less and logically have to get more out of their talents to be competitive....but it really pains me to see better talents, easier to get, lower in the tree.
I don't want to get into a "Well unbridled wrath sucks as much as the +5% mana talent". "Well you get your 5% crit talent before we do!", type of discussion. It just seems like there's very little waste in the enhancement tree (Other then the awful 10-15 gap with only 2h spec and enhancing totems really being helpful) compared to fury. You aren't stuck with a 5 point "LOL Arms PvP talent" as a pre-req for your flurry, you get 9% hit from 6 talent points compared to our 3% for 3 (Mainly because of itemization issues i'd assume...we dont need int/spirit/mp5) and the rest of our talents pretty much match up other wise.
And there is almost NO case that can be made for enrage being useful in PvE...the only time i get crit and NOT 1 shot is usually AoE trash like solarian packs, Solarian herself and tidewalker...and it's a token increase in damage in the long run because of that. If it had a chance to proc when WE crit (like 5% chance when we crit or something...1/2/3/4/5% chance on crit to increase damage by 5/10/15/20/25% for 10 seconds or something...of course criting would become insane when stacked with flurry then) then it wouldn't be COMPLETELY worthless and we wouldn't be whining as much as we are. I mean, if there wasn't anything else to take we wouldn't care as much either...but we are missing out on Weapon Mastery, Imp whirlwind or points in dual wield for....utter crap.
To give you an example of how much this sucks...Imagine if imp ghost wolf was 5 points and was needed for you to get flurry.
I don't want to get into a "Well unbridled wrath sucks as much as the +5% mana talent". "Well you get your 5% crit talent before we do!", type of discussion. It just seems like there's very little waste in the enhancement tree (Other then the awful 10-15 gap with only 2h spec and enhancing totems really being helpful) compared to fury. You aren't stuck with a 5 point "LOL Arms PvP talent" as a pre-req for your flurry, you get 9% hit from 6 talent points compared to our 3% for 3 (Mainly because of itemization issues i'd assume...we dont need int/spirit/mp5) and the rest of our talents pretty much match up other wise.
And there is almost NO case that can be made for enrage being useful in PvE...the only time i get crit and NOT 1 shot is usually AoE trash like solarian packs, Solarian herself and tidewalker...and it's a token increase in damage in the long run because of that. If it had a chance to proc when WE crit (like 5% chance when we crit or something...1/2/3/4/5% chance on crit to increase damage by 5/10/15/20/25% for 10 seconds or something...of course criting would become insane when stacked with flurry then) then it wouldn't be COMPLETELY worthless and we wouldn't be whining as much as we are. I mean, if there wasn't anything else to take we wouldn't care as much either...but we are missing out on Weapon Mastery, Imp whirlwind or points in dual wield for....utter crap.
To give you an example of how much this sucks...Imagine if imp ghost wolf was 5 points and was needed for you to get flurry.
| you get 9% hit from 6 talent points compared to our 3% for 3 (Mainly because of itemization issues i'd assume...we dont need int/spirit/mp5) and the rest of our talents pretty much match up other wise. |
Enrage is horrible in raid situations, but it's extremely good while leveling and grinding and in non-arena PVP. The real truth is the rest of the talents in the tree are extremely good and scraping for points simply accentuates how much Enrage is bad in raids. If there was a dead zone in the tree but enrage sat there (like there is at 6-10 points, and I'm not suggesting to move it there), nobody would complain because it was just something you had to take to get Flurry anyway.
Edited onPatch 2.2.3
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Originally Posted by Grymm
I would say 5% more mana is better than 25% more damage when dead in a pve situation albeit marginally.
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Hint: I get almost 10x more mana from a mana pot than I do from that talent |
Last edited by Malan : 10/17/07 at 2:43 PM.
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Originally Posted by gia
The official reasoning behind the deathwish and imp. intercept change is to open up 41 arms talent builds for pvp warriors.
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Originally Posted by gia
The official reasoning behind the deathwish and imp. intercept change is to open up 41 arms talent builds for pvp warriors.
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Do they really think this will get PvP warriors to spec the 41 pt arms talent? Hell no it won't because right now PvP warriors are all wanking off to idea that they will be able to pull off a DW->SS->Intercept->WW combo without stance dancing.
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Originally Posted by Randor
PvP warriors will not spec for Endless Rage. If it was something like Omen of Clarity, perhaps but PvP warriors are still going to spec for Enrage.
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The point though is that not taking imp. intercept for arena was downright insane, Death Wish actually is not as important after they made it not stack. The patch tries to fix the fact that no sane warrior was ever gonna spec beyond 35 arms, I'm not really sure if it's gonna be successful, but I'm at least gonna try endless rage and improved MS and see how they play before deciding, further changes may be necessary to make them really viable though.
Note: I'm not actually arguing that deep arms will be superior after 2.3, just that it will be possible to spec without getting laughed at.
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Originally Posted by gia
Note: I'm not actually arguing that deep arms will be superior after 2.3, just that it will be possible to spec without getting laughed at.
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Originally Posted by LodeRunner
No, they'll be bitterly mocked for giving up a buffed Sweeping Strikes. I'll do my share of mocking at least.
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It seems like (unless expertise is as powerful as pre-TBC weaponskill) the gap between Fury and Arms has been closed even more for single target raid DPS.
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Originally Posted by Hozz
We can not even take advantage of the 'awesome' changes we got because they took away 1 talent point in Deathwish and added 4 more in Weapon Mastery
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Originally Posted by Hozz
#2 would be AWESOME. I am hesitant to push for that though as it pretty much would negate the only reason to bring an Arms Warrior to a raid though.
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With the new changes, it seems that a slow OH will be the way to go to take advantage of these changes. But I'm wondering if having a 2.6 OH means we should opt for more hit, and if so, how much?
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Originally Posted by Steveharris
Buffed SS? I'm not sure how 2H warriors are going to pull 10 hits per second out of their ass, but I'd be impressed
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hamstring won't be a waste of a charge now, either. This is definitely an overall buff to the ability.
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Originally Posted by Darkrenown
I don't know about other warriors, but BF is the only reason I raid as arms.
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Originally Posted by Darkrenown
What, is WM confirmed as 4 points?
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Originally Posted by Fogbug
Fury is supposed to do a lot more single target damage than arms and BF is supposed to bridge that gap. The problem is that the current pre-2.3 iteration of fury doesn't do enough damage
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Hozz: Oh, ok. It was just you were the 2nd person in 2 pages to refer to WM as a 4 pointer.
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Originally Posted by Darkrenown
I'm not too sure why you felt the need to tell me that. All I meant was if BF moved to fury and my guild no longer wanted an arms warrior in their raids I wouldn't care since I'd be following BF to fury. I suspect the same would be the case for most raiding arms warriors, certainly those who specced it to help their raid rather than save on arena respecs.
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Edited onPatch 2.2.3
Blizzard doesn't want to have all goodies in one tree because they wan't the talent allocation to be something special to every character. For example, look at the Rogue talent trees. After the patch they'll be able to go every tree for their PvP spec but it'll still be different to a PvE spec because of all the small talent choices, and even with a spec like 41/20 you have to choose around 15 points from many useful talents. All this results in a near impossibility to find two totally equal specced Rogues who didn't copy someone else's spec. WoW would be boring if talent trees didn't work this way and I'm pretty happy with Arms and Fury Warriors being viable damage dealers.
Last edited by Hidden : 10/18/07 at 2:35 AM.
But this is exactly what they have done now. They put all the necessary talents in the arms tree for PvP so that a PvP warrior can get all the skills he needs with 33 points, leaving the rest to get either sweeping strikes or go for last stand + concussion blow.
I'm totally confused by this change more than anything else, I don't know where they came up with it. No one had issues with arms warriors and fury warriors were ok (threat reduction we've been expecting for a while now) - now they've gimped fury and given arms anything and everything they could possibly want.
I'm hoping they'll revert this sweeping strikes - deathwish change. Most people don't realize how much this will screw us. Every single other class has a burst DPS ability (or more). Now we have trinkets, yay.
I'm totally confused by this change more than anything else, I don't know where they came up with it. No one had issues with arms warriors and fury warriors were ok (threat reduction we've been expecting for a while now) - now they've gimped fury and given arms anything and everything they could possibly want.
I'm hoping they'll revert this sweeping strikes - deathwish change. Most people don't realize how much this will screw us. Every single other class has a burst DPS ability (or more). Now we have trinkets, yay.
Yeah I really have to scratch my head regarding the stated intent of the change.
If you were going to pick a tree that needed help...Arms would be last, I think. Warriors are a high-pop class but they (Arms spec) are over represented at every Arena level. Why would you do anything to make this spec better at the expense of another tree?
I love Arms, I respec once a week to get my welfare epics, but come on.
I am fine with this change long term as long as they realize that, because of the change, it takes us MORE talent points (17/44) to get the same DPS, and act accordingly. Unlink Enrage from Flurry.
If you were going to pick a tree that needed help...Arms would be last, I think. Warriors are a high-pop class but they (Arms spec) are over represented at every Arena level. Why would you do anything to make this spec better at the expense of another tree?
I love Arms, I respec once a week to get my welfare epics, but come on.
I am fine with this change long term as long as they realize that, because of the change, it takes us MORE talent points (17/44) to get the same DPS, and act accordingly. Unlink Enrage from Flurry.
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Originally Posted by Zalein
But this is exactly what they have done now. They put all the necessary talents in the arms tree for PvP so that a PvP warrior can get all the skills he needs with 33 points, leaving the rest to get either sweeping strikes or go for last stand + concussion blow.
I'm totally confused by this change more than anything else, I don't know where they came up with it. No one had issues with arms warriors and fury warriors were ok (threat reduction we've been expecting for a while now) - now they've gimped fury and given arms anything and everything they could possibly want. I'm hoping they'll revert this sweeping strikes - deathwish change. Most people don't realize how much this will screw us. Every single other class has a burst DPS ability (or more). Now we have trinkets, yay.  |
I think what blizzard is trying to do is preventing people from going cookie cutter specs (33/28 17/44 35/23/3 etc etc) by swapping some talents around.
Arms warriors might be tempted to go deep in arms, or put some points in prot or points in fury, fury warriors can take the 41 pointer or put some more talents in arms to get Deathwish.
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Originally Posted by Eledorian
I think what blizzard is trying to do is preventing people from going cookie cutter specs (33/28 17/44 35/23/3 etc etc) by swapping some talents around.
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Edited onPatch 2.2.3
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Originally Posted by Zalein
I'm hoping they'll revert this sweeping strikes - deathwish change. Most people don't realize how much this will screw us. Every single other class has a burst DPS ability (or more). Now we have trinkets, yay.
|
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Originally Posted by Eledorian
Arms warriors might be tempted to go deep in arms, or put some points in prot or points in fury, fury warriors can take the 41 pointer or put some more talents in arms to get Deathwish.
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I really don't see why people are calling this an Arms buff either. Any warrior with a brain didn't go past 35 points in Arms and made sure they grabbed Deathwish. The talent swap changes pretty much nothing for pvp and is a minor nerf for pve because they took a desired pve talent (weapon mastery) and swapped it with an undesired talent (imp intercept). In 2.3 two filler talent points have to be taken in Arms to get to the 31 point level and a choice has to be made to drop either Imp Execute, Slam, and Weapon Mastery or dropping sweeping strikes to 1/2 one of them.
Last edited by mikebro : 10/18/07 at 10:17 AM. Reason: added reply
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Originally Posted by Steveharris
Buffed SS? I'm not sure how 2H warriors are going to pull 10 hits per second out of their ass, but I'd be impressed.
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How many charges of Sweeping Strikes does the new Whirlwind takes now?
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Originally Posted by Mace
How many charges of Sweeping Strikes does the new Whirlwind takes now?
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Since it attacks with both weapons that means... 8 charges against 4 targets? Anyone know if they're touching the cooldown of Sweeping Strikes at all?
| Apparently you know something we don't. How much will it screw us? I really doubt anyone has done any sort of extensive testing in 25 mans on the PTR, and the change to weapon mastery isn't even in yet which is a pretty big change. |
| the change to weapon mastery isn't even in yet which is a pretty big change. |
| Anyone know if they're touching the cooldown of Sweeping Strikes at all? |
|
Originally Posted by Eledorian
I think what blizzard is trying to do is preventing people from going cookie cutter specs (33/28 17/44 35/23/3 etc etc) by swapping some talents around.
|
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Originally Posted by Eledorian
...
I think what blizzard is trying to do is preventing people from going cookie cutter specs (33/28 17/44 35/23/3 etc etc) by swapping some talents around. ... |
The way I see it, those are the specs that were working, and "didn't need changes"?
I don't really think it has anything to do with breaking cookie cutter specs, and I don't think it's specifically meant to make the current 36+ arms more attractive. I think it's a future proofing for when the tree is 51 points deep.
It's been stated over and over, but the unlinking of enrage would help in so many ways the more I consider it.
With 5 more points you could get the 2/2 Weapon Expertise, and then decide between maxing Imp WW. or going 3/3 in something like Tactical mastery which would be a tanking buff (I haven't seen any metric on the threat increase.) and might make that terrible 2/4 tier 5 set bonus less shithouse.
It's been stated over and over, but the unlinking of enrage would help in so many ways the more I consider it.
With 5 more points you could get the 2/2 Weapon Expertise, and then decide between maxing Imp WW. or going 3/3 in something like Tactical mastery which would be a tanking buff (I haven't seen any metric on the threat increase.) and might make that terrible 2/4 tier 5 set bonus less shithouse.
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Originally Posted by Eledorian
Arms warriors might be tempted to go deep in arms, or put some points in prot or points in fury, fury warriors can take the 41 pointer or put some more talents in arms to get Deathwish.
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It brings up the greater question of 21/40. Setting aside Rampage for the moment, limiting Fury to 40 points is a fairly big hit to it. The question arises again, where do you cut points from to squeeze under a cap of 40? There are only a limited number of places those points can come from and nearly all of them are essential to DW Fury - places like Precision, Dual Wield Specialization, Improved Execute, Weapon Mastery, maybe a point from Commanding Presence. Unlinking Enrage from Flurry (or swapping DW spec with Flurry) would go a long way to streamlining Fury spec.
There is also the point of where do you *put* the points in Arms in such a way that they are beneficial to DW. 17 points are straightforward - progression towards Impale. But then you have three points that are basically filler.
Right now if you want to build a 21/40 Fury spec you might as well mash it into 2h Fury. That way you can take the points you need from Precision and DW spec, and allocate them meaningfully into 2h spec over in Arms.
And as many others have noted, moving Death Wish over to Arms doesn't change the cookie cutter Arms spec at all. I'm very tempted to go back to it, especially given that i've lost my freebie 3% hit human cheese. Blood Frenzy in Arms is very enticing.
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Originally Posted by Charsi
I'm not sure how everyone specs Fury but for my part, when I spec DW Fury I typically skip Improved Intercept in favour of Improved Execute. The swapping of Improved Intercept and Weapon Mastery means I need to find two points for it, yet there's no "filler" for me to take the points from - i'd have to give up Improved Execute, take two points out of DW spec, or some combination.
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So, if this is going to happen, Enrage needs to be unlinked from Flurry.
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Originally Posted by Eledorian
I think what blizzard is trying to do is preventing people from going cookie cutter specs (33/28 17/44 35/23/3 etc etc) by swapping some talents around.
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Blizzard can only change what the cookie cutter specs are. They can't eliminate thier existence and if they actually believe they can then they are fools.
Well tbh we never have enough talent points to pick up everything we want. It's a about getting the talents that give you the most for your chosen playstyle.
Weapon mastery is going to give -2% dodge per talent point, making it better than Precision (1%hit per talent point) and very probably better than each point in Imp Execute (at least that's what playing with spreadsheets tell me). So you can put points in it while still getting a buff to your 17/44 build. You just have to give up some talent points placed in worse talents.
Weapon mastery is going to give -2% dodge per talent point, making it better than Precision (1%hit per talent point) and very probably better than each point in Imp Execute (at least that's what playing with spreadsheets tell me). So you can put points in it while still getting a buff to your 17/44 build. You just have to give up some talent points placed in worse talents.
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Originally Posted by Gruntle
Weapon mastery is going to give -2% dodge per talent point, making it better than Precision (1%hit per talent point) and very probably better than each point in Imp Execute (at least that's what playing with spreadsheets tell me). So you can put points in it while still getting a buff to your 17/44 build. You just have to give up some talent points placed in worse talents.
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Originally Posted by Charsi
On that note, once Defiance is actually granting Expertise on the PTR I would be curious to see if a spec like 3/45/13 is worthwhile - stacking Expertise on top of Weapon Mastery. I suspect giving up Impale won't be worth it, though.
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Originally Posted by Nite_Moogle
It's been stated in the PTR thread that the Expertise granted by Defiance is only active in Defensive stance. I don't know if this is intentional or not, but it would seem somewhat silly to discourage taking Defiance for cross-speccing.
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Edited onPatch 2.2.3
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Originally Posted by Adrammelech
I don't really think it has anything to do with breaking cookie cutter specs, and I don't think it's specifically meant to make the current 36+ arms more attractive. I think it's a future proofing for when the tree is 51 points deep.
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Last edited by gia : 10/18/07 at 3:47 PM.
| I'm still convinced that the motivation behind the change is getting more people to spec full arms. |
Also regarding Defiance: my guess is they were lazy and made the expertise a part of the Defiance aura instead of adding it as its own buff.
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Originally Posted by Zalein
Most people don't realize how much this will screw us. Every single other class has a burst DPS ability (or more). Now we have trinkets, yay.
|
I'm interested in the implications of this Deathwish - Sweeping Strikes switch for Fury specs.
Since Rampage does not scale with gear (only with ranks obtained by levels), at some point, even assuming 100% uptime on Rampage, would not Deathwish come out on top as being a superior choice for damage?
Also, the activation feature of Deathwish allows for more control and the ability to gain the benefit during a vulnerable phase in a boss.
Here is what I am coming up with (this might be totally whack; I am using ingame tooltips for these calculations).
250 AP bonus from Rampage = flat 17.8 dps over the course of the fight. Over a 3 minute fight, this will give +3,204 damage.
20% bonus from Deathwish = During 3 minutes of a fight, :30 will be at 120% damage, and the other 2:30 will be at 100% damage. Assuming 1k dps (for simplicity), :30 of Deathwish will give 1.2k x 30 = 36k damage, or a 6,000 damage increase.
Looks like the inflection point is well under 1k dps. Does this mean that Rampage is an obsolete talent now?
Since Rampage does not scale with gear (only with ranks obtained by levels), at some point, even assuming 100% uptime on Rampage, would not Deathwish come out on top as being a superior choice for damage?
Also, the activation feature of Deathwish allows for more control and the ability to gain the benefit during a vulnerable phase in a boss.
Here is what I am coming up with (this might be totally whack; I am using ingame tooltips for these calculations).
250 AP bonus from Rampage = flat 17.8 dps over the course of the fight. Over a 3 minute fight, this will give +3,204 damage.
20% bonus from Deathwish = During 3 minutes of a fight, :30 will be at 120% damage, and the other 2:30 will be at 100% damage. Assuming 1k dps (for simplicity), :30 of Deathwish will give 1.2k x 30 = 36k damage, or a 6,000 damage increase.
Looks like the inflection point is well under 1k dps. Does this mean that Rampage is an obsolete talent now?
Factor in all the meaningless talents you would have to pickup in Arms to get it.
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Originally Posted by Graul
Factor in all the meaningless talents you would have to pickup in Arms to get it.
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Yeah I really have to scratch my head regarding the stated intent of the change.
If you were going to pick a tree that needed help...Arms would be last, I think. Warriors are a high-pop class but they (Arms spec) are over represented at every Arena level. Why would you do anything to make this spec better at the expense of another tree?
I love Arms, I respec once a week to get my welfare epics, but come on.
I am fine with this change long term as long as they realize that, because of the change, it takes us MORE talent points (17/44) to get the same DPS, and act accordingly. Unlink Enrage from Flurry.
If you were going to pick a tree that needed help...Arms would be last, I think. Warriors are a high-pop class but they (Arms spec) are over represented at every Arena level. Why would you do anything to make this spec better at the expense of another tree?
I love Arms, I respec once a week to get my welfare epics, but come on.
I am fine with this change long term as long as they realize that, because of the change, it takes us MORE talent points (17/44) to get the same DPS, and act accordingly. Unlink Enrage from Flurry.
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Originally Posted by Zalein
But this is exactly what they have done now. They put all the necessary talents in the arms tree for PvP so that a PvP warrior can get all the skills he needs with 33 points, leaving the rest to get either sweeping strikes or go for last stand + concussion blow.
I'm totally confused by this change more than anything else, I don't know where they came up with it. No one had issues with arms warriors and fury warriors were ok (threat reduction we've been expecting for a while now) - now they've gimped fury and given arms anything and everything they could possibly want. I'm hoping they'll revert this sweeping strikes - deathwish change. Most people don't realize how much this will screw us. Every single other class has a burst DPS ability (or more). Now we have trinkets, yay. |
I think what blizzard is trying to do is preventing people from going cookie cutter specs (33/28 17/44 35/23/3 etc etc) by swapping some talents around.
Arms warriors might be tempted to go deep in arms, or put some points in prot or points in fury, fury warriors can take the 41 pointer or put some more talents in arms to get Deathwish.
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Originally Posted by Eledorian
I think what blizzard is trying to do is preventing people from going cookie cutter specs (33/28 17/44 35/23/3 etc etc) by swapping some talents around.
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Edited onPatch 2.2.3
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Originally Posted by Zalein
I'm hoping they'll revert this sweeping strikes - deathwish change. Most people don't realize how much this will screw us. Every single other class has a burst DPS ability (or more). Now we have trinkets, yay.
|
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Originally Posted by Eledorian
Arms warriors might be tempted to go deep in arms, or put some points in prot or points in fury, fury warriors can take the 41 pointer or put some more talents in arms to get Deathwish.
|
I really don't see why people are calling this an Arms buff either. Any warrior with a brain didn't go past 35 points in Arms and made sure they grabbed Deathwish. The talent swap changes pretty much nothing for pvp and is a minor nerf for pve because they took a desired pve talent (weapon mastery) and swapped it with an undesired talent (imp intercept). In 2.3 two filler talent points have to be taken in Arms to get to the 31 point level and a choice has to be made to drop either Imp Execute, Slam, and Weapon Mastery or dropping sweeping strikes to 1/2 one of them.
Last edited by mikebro : 10/18/07 at 10:17 AM. Reason: added reply
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Originally Posted by Steveharris
Buffed SS? I'm not sure how 2H warriors are going to pull 10 hits per second out of their ass, but I'd be impressed.
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How many charges of Sweeping Strikes does the new Whirlwind takes now?
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Originally Posted by Mace
How many charges of Sweeping Strikes does the new Whirlwind takes now?
|
Since it attacks with both weapons that means... 8 charges against 4 targets? Anyone know if they're touching the cooldown of Sweeping Strikes at all?
| Apparently you know something we don't. How much will it screw us? I really doubt anyone has done any sort of extensive testing in 25 mans on the PTR, and the change to weapon mastery isn't even in yet which is a pretty big change. |
| the change to weapon mastery isn't even in yet which is a pretty big change. |
| Anyone know if they're touching the cooldown of Sweeping Strikes at all? |
|
Originally Posted by Eledorian
I think what blizzard is trying to do is preventing people from going cookie cutter specs (33/28 17/44 35/23/3 etc etc) by swapping some talents around.
|
|
Originally Posted by Eledorian
...
I think what blizzard is trying to do is preventing people from going cookie cutter specs (33/28 17/44 35/23/3 etc etc) by swapping some talents around. ... |
The way I see it, those are the specs that were working, and "didn't need changes"?
I don't really think it has anything to do with breaking cookie cutter specs, and I don't think it's specifically meant to make the current 36+ arms more attractive. I think it's a future proofing for when the tree is 51 points deep.
It's been stated over and over, but the unlinking of enrage would help in so many ways the more I consider it.
With 5 more points you could get the 2/2 Weapon Expertise, and then decide between maxing Imp WW. or going 3/3 in something like Tactical mastery which would be a tanking buff (I haven't seen any metric on the threat increase.) and might make that terrible 2/4 tier 5 set bonus less shithouse.
It's been stated over and over, but the unlinking of enrage would help in so many ways the more I consider it.
With 5 more points you could get the 2/2 Weapon Expertise, and then decide between maxing Imp WW. or going 3/3 in something like Tactical mastery which would be a tanking buff (I haven't seen any metric on the threat increase.) and might make that terrible 2/4 tier 5 set bonus less shithouse.
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Originally Posted by Eledorian
Arms warriors might be tempted to go deep in arms, or put some points in prot or points in fury, fury warriors can take the 41 pointer or put some more talents in arms to get Deathwish.
|
It brings up the greater question of 21/40. Setting aside Rampage for the moment, limiting Fury to 40 points is a fairly big hit to it. The question arises again, where do you cut points from to squeeze under a cap of 40? There are only a limited number of places those points can come from and nearly all of them are essential to DW Fury - places like Precision, Dual Wield Specialization, Improved Execute, Weapon Mastery, maybe a point from Commanding Presence. Unlinking Enrage from Flurry (or swapping DW spec with Flurry) would go a long way to streamlining Fury spec.
There is also the point of where do you *put* the points in Arms in such a way that they are beneficial to DW. 17 points are straightforward - progression towards Impale. But then you have three points that are basically filler.
Right now if you want to build a 21/40 Fury spec you might as well mash it into 2h Fury. That way you can take the points you need from Precision and DW spec, and allocate them meaningfully into 2h spec over in Arms.
And as many others have noted, moving Death Wish over to Arms doesn't change the cookie cutter Arms spec at all. I'm very tempted to go back to it, especially given that i've lost my freebie 3% hit human cheese. Blood Frenzy in Arms is very enticing.
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Originally Posted by Charsi
I'm not sure how everyone specs Fury but for my part, when I spec DW Fury I typically skip Improved Intercept in favour of Improved Execute. The swapping of Improved Intercept and Weapon Mastery means I need to find two points for it, yet there's no "filler" for me to take the points from - i'd have to give up Improved Execute, take two points out of DW spec, or some combination.
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So, if this is going to happen, Enrage needs to be unlinked from Flurry.
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Originally Posted by Eledorian
I think what blizzard is trying to do is preventing people from going cookie cutter specs (33/28 17/44 35/23/3 etc etc) by swapping some talents around.
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Blizzard can only change what the cookie cutter specs are. They can't eliminate thier existence and if they actually believe they can then they are fools.
Well tbh we never have enough talent points to pick up everything we want. It's a about getting the talents that give you the most for your chosen playstyle.
Weapon mastery is going to give -2% dodge per talent point, making it better than Precision (1%hit per talent point) and very probably better than each point in Imp Execute (at least that's what playing with spreadsheets tell me). So you can put points in it while still getting a buff to your 17/44 build. You just have to give up some talent points placed in worse talents.
Weapon mastery is going to give -2% dodge per talent point, making it better than Precision (1%hit per talent point) and very probably better than each point in Imp Execute (at least that's what playing with spreadsheets tell me). So you can put points in it while still getting a buff to your 17/44 build. You just have to give up some talent points placed in worse talents.
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Originally Posted by Gruntle
Weapon mastery is going to give -2% dodge per talent point, making it better than Precision (1%hit per talent point) and very probably better than each point in Imp Execute (at least that's what playing with spreadsheets tell me). So you can put points in it while still getting a buff to your 17/44 build. You just have to give up some talent points placed in worse talents.
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Originally Posted by Charsi
On that note, once Defiance is actually granting Expertise on the PTR I would be curious to see if a spec like 3/45/13 is worthwhile - stacking Expertise on top of Weapon Mastery. I suspect giving up Impale won't be worth it, though.
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Originally Posted by Nite_Moogle
It's been stated in the PTR thread that the Expertise granted by Defiance is only active in Defensive stance. I don't know if this is intentional or not, but it would seem somewhat silly to discourage taking Defiance for cross-speccing.
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Edited onPatch 2.2.3
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Originally Posted by Adrammelech
I don't really think it has anything to do with breaking cookie cutter specs, and I don't think it's specifically meant to make the current 36+ arms more attractive. I think it's a future proofing for when the tree is 51 points deep.
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Last edited by gia : 10/18/07 at 3:47 PM.
| I'm still convinced that the motivation behind the change is getting more people to spec full arms. |
Also regarding Defiance: my guess is they were lazy and made the expertise a part of the Defiance aura instead of adding it as its own buff.
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Originally Posted by Zalein
Most people don't realize how much this will screw us. Every single other class has a burst DPS ability (or more). Now we have trinkets, yay.
|
I'm interested in the implications of this Deathwish - Sweeping Strikes switch for Fury specs.
Since Rampage does not scale with gear (only with ranks obtained by levels), at some point, even assuming 100% uptime on Rampage, would not Deathwish come out on top as being a superior choice for damage?
Also, the activation feature of Deathwish allows for more control and the ability to gain the benefit during a vulnerable phase in a boss.
Here is what I am coming up with (this might be totally whack; I am using ingame tooltips for these calculations).
250 AP bonus from Rampage = flat 17.8 dps over the course of the fight. Over a 3 minute fight, this will give +3,204 damage.
20% bonus from Deathwish = During 3 minutes of a fight, :30 will be at 120% damage, and the other 2:30 will be at 100% damage. Assuming 1k dps (for simplicity), :30 of Deathwish will give 1.2k x 30 = 36k damage, or a 6,000 damage increase.
Looks like the inflection point is well under 1k dps. Does this mean that Rampage is an obsolete talent now?
Since Rampage does not scale with gear (only with ranks obtained by levels), at some point, even assuming 100% uptime on Rampage, would not Deathwish come out on top as being a superior choice for damage?
Also, the activation feature of Deathwish allows for more control and the ability to gain the benefit during a vulnerable phase in a boss.
Here is what I am coming up with (this might be totally whack; I am using ingame tooltips for these calculations).
250 AP bonus from Rampage = flat 17.8 dps over the course of the fight. Over a 3 minute fight, this will give +3,204 damage.
20% bonus from Deathwish = During 3 minutes of a fight, :30 will be at 120% damage, and the other 2:30 will be at 100% damage. Assuming 1k dps (for simplicity), :30 of Deathwish will give 1.2k x 30 = 36k damage, or a 6,000 damage increase.
Looks like the inflection point is well under 1k dps. Does this mean that Rampage is an obsolete talent now?
Factor in all the meaningless talents you would have to pickup in Arms to get it.
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Originally Posted by Graul
Factor in all the meaningless talents you would have to pickup in Arms to get it.
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Originally Posted by Lambach
You actaully have to factor in all the good talents in fury you'd have to lose. Its just not worth it. I hopped on ptr and spent forever trying to spec(good thing gold is free), its really hard, and DW is impossible to pick up.
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I was thinking about the DW/SS swap, and since, as has been mentioned, Arms doesn't really need a buff, the only explanation that actually makes any sense is that the switch is a response to the "tank crisis": open up Arms/Prot for Arena, so that the PuG pool will have more semi-tank-spec tanks at any given time.
Mortal Strike, Death Wish, and Improved Intercept are all essentially required talents for the PvPing Warrior. This has locked Warriors into a deep Arms/Fury build for PvP since BC came out, and as such, Warriors have seriously lacked a spec option that worked well for both PvP and PvE. In my experience, 33/28 comes close, but the last two points in Arms force a choice between two extremely powerful talents, and the one you choose essentially defines the build as PvP or PvE.
The DW/SS and II/WM swaps address this, since they open up 35/5/21 as a viable Arena spec. Given that I don't generally get attacked in Arena unless a 5v5 team decides they are going to burst me to death, I have to question Enrage's continued usefulness when weighed against Last Stand and Concussion Blow. Piercing Howl is a loss, sure, but the issue is debatable.
Ultimately, however, 35/5/21 provides you with a now-viable Arena spec and a VERY viable 5 or 10-man tanking spec. It would take some getting used to, sure, but I'd give it a shot just to save myself 2 respecs a week.
Mortal Strike, Death Wish, and Improved Intercept are all essentially required talents for the PvPing Warrior. This has locked Warriors into a deep Arms/Fury build for PvP since BC came out, and as such, Warriors have seriously lacked a spec option that worked well for both PvP and PvE. In my experience, 33/28 comes close, but the last two points in Arms force a choice between two extremely powerful talents, and the one you choose essentially defines the build as PvP or PvE.
The DW/SS and II/WM swaps address this, since they open up 35/5/21 as a viable Arena spec. Given that I don't generally get attacked in Arena unless a 5v5 team decides they are going to burst me to death, I have to question Enrage's continued usefulness when weighed against Last Stand and Concussion Blow. Piercing Howl is a loss, sure, but the issue is debatable.
Ultimately, however, 35/5/21 provides you with a now-viable Arena spec and a VERY viable 5 or 10-man tanking spec. It would take some getting used to, sure, but I'd give it a shot just to save myself 2 respecs a week.
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Originally Posted by Lambach
You actaully have to factor in all the good talents in fury you'd have to lose. Its just not worth it. I hopped on ptr and spent forever trying to spec(good thing gold is free), its really hard, and DW is impossible to pick up.
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Originally Posted by telcontar
Point taken. It seems like one would have to give up 2% to hit and another talent point for meaningless talents in Arms. There is no synergy in a 21/40 build, which makes it all the more frustrating that, in a dead heat, Deathwish is a superior talent to Rampage.
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Originally Posted by mikebro
I really don't see why people are calling this an Arms buff either.
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Originally Posted by telcontar
250 AP bonus from Rampage = flat 17.8 dps over the course of the fight. Over a 3 minute fight, this will give +3,204 damage.
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- AP affects the off-hand AND the main hand
- 250 AP becomes 275 AP with improved berserker stance. 302.5 AP with an enhancement shaman
- AP adds directly to your instant attack damage. BT gains 302AP * .45 = 135.9 dmg = 22 DPS. Whirlwind gains base damage which will depend on weapon speed.
- AP increases white damage, which increases rage, which increases special attacks, which increases total DPS
It's a more complex problem than it looks. However, like other posters have said, you also need to sacrifice 3 additional points in arms to get to death wish. It's going to be very hard to justify.
It really depends on whether Shade of Akama 2.0 shows up in Sunwell, IMO =)
Death Wish is awesome but people are making way too big a deal about it. As someone on a much earlier page said I believe, it's clearly so that 41 points in arms is accessible and not useless. Either that or 40 for imp MS, which I doubt many people had points in before either. See how we're doing after the huge aggro redux buff and how we like the new and hugely improved whirlwind before you flip your lid about DW. Yes it's a nerf to pure fury specs, but the extent of the buffs we got isn't clear yet, and no some preliminary testing on test server or theorycrafting with a spreadsheet is not good enough.
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Originally Posted by Nagarl
Death Wish is awesome but people are making way too big a deal about it. As someone on a much earlier page said I believe, it's clearly so that 41 points in arms is accessible and not useless. Either that or 40 for imp MS, which I doubt many people had points in before either. See how we're doing after the huge aggro redux buff and how we like the new and hugely improved whirlwind before you flip your lid about DW. Yes it's a nerf to pure fury specs, but the extent of the buffs we got isn't clear yet, and no some preliminary testing on test server or theorycrafting with a spreadsheet is not good enough.
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- It's very easy to understand how much the new whirlwind will affect our single target DPS. You get one more off hand special hit every 10 (or 9) seconds. It doesn't require a spreadsheet.
- It's also very easy to understand how much the new threat change will affect your DPS on fights where you are not threat limited (Hint: 0).
The important change here is without a doubt weapon mastery granting -4% chance for attacks to be dodged. The other important change is that whirlwind & sweeping strikes on groups of mobs will simply be more fun.
Does whirlwind still cannibalize SS charges? I.e. WW hits 4 mobs and each hit eats a SS charge, but you only actually get one additional hit from SS. So if you were to use WW twice with SS up, you would only gain 4 additional hits instead of 10.
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Originally Posted by Nite_Moogle
It's just not going to happen until Improve Slam goes somewhere else.
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Meh, bug with the new WW change atm. Off-hand crits don't proc Flurry or light up Rampage. I was going crazy trying to figure out why.
Is the offhand hit from WW affected by Dual Wield Spec (Like DW spec for Mutilate Rogues)?
Yes, it'll hit for 62.5% of weapon damage if you have 5/5 in DW specialization.
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Originally Posted by Darkrenown
Even if imp slam were to move, there's still flurry, there'd have to be something amazing in upper arms to make people drop that.
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Edited onPatch 2.2.3
Hm, how will the warglaives be with the new Whirlwind? Aren't Blizzard, more or less, preventing us from using a fast off-hand. And the warglaive off-hand has a 1.40 speed, which will be quite bad with the 2.3 Whirlwind?
They're basically narrowing our play-style? (Different weapon types; Fast / Fast, Slow / Fast, Slow / Slow)
edit; grammar
They're basically narrowing our play-style? (Different weapon types; Fast / Fast, Slow / Fast, Slow / Slow)
edit; grammar
Last edited by boysailor : 10/19/07 at 5:52 AM. Reason: grammar
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Originally Posted by boysailor
Hm, how will the warglaives be with the new Whirlwind? Aren't Blizzard, more or less, preventing us from using a fast off-hand. And the warglaive off-hand has a 1.40 speed, which will be quite bad with the 2.3 Whirlwind?
They're basically narrowing our play-style? (Different weapon types; Fast / Fast, Slow / Fast, Slow / Slow) edit; grammar |
What about those of us who aren't rocking Warglaives. :P
I've always been partial to fast off-hands due to rage generation.
Also something to keep in mind is the 103 DPS Arena weapons, and most likely buffed Black Temple/Hyjal weapons in 2.3.
I've always been partial to fast off-hands due to rage generation.
Also something to keep in mind is the 103 DPS Arena weapons, and most likely buffed Black Temple/Hyjal weapons in 2.3.
Does anyone know if Expertise will work in PvP ? I mean, it doesn't make sense to have a talent with two -totally- seperate parts, one that's good for PvP and useless in PvE, and vica versa.
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Originally Posted by Emeraude
What about those of us who aren't rocking Warglaives. :P
I've always been partial to fast off-hands due to rage generation. Also something to keep in mind is the 103 DPS Arena weapons, and most likely buffed Black Temple/Hyjal weapons in 2.3. |
I'll probably use a fast offhand anyway, but my Emerald Ripper will have to go I think.
Offhand speed actually doesn't matter much; thanks to a 0,625x damage multiplier and the cooldown. As long as it's not a dagger, all that matters is the difference in base damage. [Syphon of the Nathrezim], for example, has got 130 damage over [Swiftsteel Bludgeon] on average. Worst case (2/2 in Whirlwind) it will be around 14 DPS better, and that should be pretty much static. The rest of your damage comes from attack power, which thanks to normalisation is unaffected.
Wowhead and Thottbot are both currently displaying the "test" Whirlwind as requiring a one-handed weapon and doing 50% weapon damage. Is there any significance to this or am I being needlessly paranoid?
Thottbot World of Warcraft: Whirlwind
Whirlwind - Spells - World of Warcraft
Thottbot World of Warcraft: Whirlwind
Whirlwind - Spells - World of Warcraft
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Originally Posted by Lambach
Really, with 2 slow weapons, imp WW is pretty awesome. Rampage is still "eh" but ill be worth the one point. I even had a hard time getting impale in. Depating 2% hit or 2 in imp execute atm. Its a tough choice.
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Originally Posted by Birdemani
Isn't WW normalized because it is an instant attack? Therefore would it matter what the speed was of the OH as long as it wasn't a dagger.
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One thing that has been happening over the course of this game is Blizzard obsoleting gear choices.
For casters, the MH/OH versus staves selection (in terms of itemization points): we are seeing an endangered gear choice. Already, daggers (the defining weapon of a rogue?) are useless today to a raiding rogue as swords and fists prove superior, and maces are the choice for pvp. Enh shams have already seen the need for 2 slow weapons.
I suppose the warrior class is the final melee class to be pushed into subtle gear requirements to retain viability, when you take a look at the progression of gear choices.
For casters, the MH/OH versus staves selection (in terms of itemization points): we are seeing an endangered gear choice. Already, daggers (the defining weapon of a rogue?) are useless today to a raiding rogue as swords and fists prove superior, and maces are the choice for pvp. Enh shams have already seen the need for 2 slow weapons.
I suppose the warrior class is the final melee class to be pushed into subtle gear requirements to retain viability, when you take a look at the progression of gear choices.
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Originally Posted by peer
Wowhead and Thottbot are both currently displaying the "test" Whirlwind as requiring a one-handed weapon and doing 50% weapon damage. Is there any significance to this or am I being needlessly paranoid?
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My guess is that "trigger spell" you are seeing is for the off-hand Whirlwind attack.
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Originally Posted by Lambach
You actaully have to factor in all the good talents in fury you'd have to lose. Its just not worth it. I hopped on ptr and spent forever trying to spec(good thing gold is free), its really hard, and DW is impossible to pick up.
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I was thinking about the DW/SS swap, and since, as has been mentioned, Arms doesn't really need a buff, the only explanation that actually makes any sense is that the switch is a response to the "tank crisis": open up Arms/Prot for Arena, so that the PuG pool will have more semi-tank-spec tanks at any given time.
Mortal Strike, Death Wish, and Improved Intercept are all essentially required talents for the PvPing Warrior. This has locked Warriors into a deep Arms/Fury build for PvP since BC came out, and as such, Warriors have seriously lacked a spec option that worked well for both PvP and PvE. In my experience, 33/28 comes close, but the last two points in Arms force a choice between two extremely powerful talents, and the one you choose essentially defines the build as PvP or PvE.
The DW/SS and II/WM swaps address this, since they open up 35/5/21 as a viable Arena spec. Given that I don't generally get attacked in Arena unless a 5v5 team decides they are going to burst me to death, I have to question Enrage's continued usefulness when weighed against Last Stand and Concussion Blow. Piercing Howl is a loss, sure, but the issue is debatable.
Ultimately, however, 35/5/21 provides you with a now-viable Arena spec and a VERY viable 5 or 10-man tanking spec. It would take some getting used to, sure, but I'd give it a shot just to save myself 2 respecs a week.
Mortal Strike, Death Wish, and Improved Intercept are all essentially required talents for the PvPing Warrior. This has locked Warriors into a deep Arms/Fury build for PvP since BC came out, and as such, Warriors have seriously lacked a spec option that worked well for both PvP and PvE. In my experience, 33/28 comes close, but the last two points in Arms force a choice between two extremely powerful talents, and the one you choose essentially defines the build as PvP or PvE.
The DW/SS and II/WM swaps address this, since they open up 35/5/21 as a viable Arena spec. Given that I don't generally get attacked in Arena unless a 5v5 team decides they are going to burst me to death, I have to question Enrage's continued usefulness when weighed against Last Stand and Concussion Blow. Piercing Howl is a loss, sure, but the issue is debatable.
Ultimately, however, 35/5/21 provides you with a now-viable Arena spec and a VERY viable 5 or 10-man tanking spec. It would take some getting used to, sure, but I'd give it a shot just to save myself 2 respecs a week.
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Originally Posted by Lambach
You actaully have to factor in all the good talents in fury you'd have to lose. Its just not worth it. I hopped on ptr and spent forever trying to spec(good thing gold is free), its really hard, and DW is impossible to pick up.
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Originally Posted by telcontar
Point taken. It seems like one would have to give up 2% to hit and another talent point for meaningless talents in Arms. There is no synergy in a 21/40 build, which makes it all the more frustrating that, in a dead heat, Deathwish is a superior talent to Rampage.
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Originally Posted by mikebro
I really don't see why people are calling this an Arms buff either.
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Originally Posted by telcontar
250 AP bonus from Rampage = flat 17.8 dps over the course of the fight. Over a 3 minute fight, this will give +3,204 damage.
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- AP affects the off-hand AND the main hand
- 250 AP becomes 275 AP with improved berserker stance. 302.5 AP with an enhancement shaman
- AP adds directly to your instant attack damage. BT gains 302AP * .45 = 135.9 dmg = 22 DPS. Whirlwind gains base damage which will depend on weapon speed.
- AP increases white damage, which increases rage, which increases special attacks, which increases total DPS
It's a more complex problem than it looks. However, like other posters have said, you also need to sacrifice 3 additional points in arms to get to death wish. It's going to be very hard to justify.
It really depends on whether Shade of Akama 2.0 shows up in Sunwell, IMO =)
Death Wish is awesome but people are making way too big a deal about it. As someone on a much earlier page said I believe, it's clearly so that 41 points in arms is accessible and not useless. Either that or 40 for imp MS, which I doubt many people had points in before either. See how we're doing after the huge aggro redux buff and how we like the new and hugely improved whirlwind before you flip your lid about DW. Yes it's a nerf to pure fury specs, but the extent of the buffs we got isn't clear yet, and no some preliminary testing on test server or theorycrafting with a spreadsheet is not good enough.
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Originally Posted by Nagarl
Death Wish is awesome but people are making way too big a deal about it. As someone on a much earlier page said I believe, it's clearly so that 41 points in arms is accessible and not useless. Either that or 40 for imp MS, which I doubt many people had points in before either. See how we're doing after the huge aggro redux buff and how we like the new and hugely improved whirlwind before you flip your lid about DW. Yes it's a nerf to pure fury specs, but the extent of the buffs we got isn't clear yet, and no some preliminary testing on test server or theorycrafting with a spreadsheet is not good enough.
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- It's very easy to understand how much the new whirlwind will affect our single target DPS. You get one more off hand special hit every 10 (or 9) seconds. It doesn't require a spreadsheet.
- It's also very easy to understand how much the new threat change will affect your DPS on fights where you are not threat limited (Hint: 0).
The important change here is without a doubt weapon mastery granting -4% chance for attacks to be dodged. The other important change is that whirlwind & sweeping strikes on groups of mobs will simply be more fun.
Does whirlwind still cannibalize SS charges? I.e. WW hits 4 mobs and each hit eats a SS charge, but you only actually get one additional hit from SS. So if you were to use WW twice with SS up, you would only gain 4 additional hits instead of 10.
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Originally Posted by Nite_Moogle
It's just not going to happen until Improve Slam goes somewhere else.
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Meh, bug with the new WW change atm. Off-hand crits don't proc Flurry or light up Rampage. I was going crazy trying to figure out why.
Is the offhand hit from WW affected by Dual Wield Spec (Like DW spec for Mutilate Rogues)?
Yes, it'll hit for 62.5% of weapon damage if you have 5/5 in DW specialization.
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Originally Posted by Darkrenown
Even if imp slam were to move, there's still flurry, there'd have to be something amazing in upper arms to make people drop that.
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Edited onPatch 2.2.3
Hm, how will the warglaives be with the new Whirlwind? Aren't Blizzard, more or less, preventing us from using a fast off-hand. And the warglaive off-hand has a 1.40 speed, which will be quite bad with the 2.3 Whirlwind?
They're basically narrowing our play-style? (Different weapon types; Fast / Fast, Slow / Fast, Slow / Slow)
edit; grammar
They're basically narrowing our play-style? (Different weapon types; Fast / Fast, Slow / Fast, Slow / Slow)
edit; grammar
Last edited by boysailor : 10/19/07 at 5:52 AM. Reason: grammar
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Originally Posted by boysailor
Hm, how will the warglaives be with the new Whirlwind? Aren't Blizzard, more or less, preventing us from using a fast off-hand. And the warglaive off-hand has a 1.40 speed, which will be quite bad with the 2.3 Whirlwind?
They're basically narrowing our play-style? (Different weapon types; Fast / Fast, Slow / Fast, Slow / Slow) edit; grammar |
What about those of us who aren't rocking Warglaives. :P
I've always been partial to fast off-hands due to rage generation.
Also something to keep in mind is the 103 DPS Arena weapons, and most likely buffed Black Temple/Hyjal weapons in 2.3.
I've always been partial to fast off-hands due to rage generation.
Also something to keep in mind is the 103 DPS Arena weapons, and most likely buffed Black Temple/Hyjal weapons in 2.3.
Does anyone know if Expertise will work in PvP ? I mean, it doesn't make sense to have a talent with two -totally- seperate parts, one that's good for PvP and useless in PvE, and vica versa.
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Originally Posted by Emeraude
What about those of us who aren't rocking Warglaives. :P
I've always been partial to fast off-hands due to rage generation. Also something to keep in mind is the 103 DPS Arena weapons, and most likely buffed Black Temple/Hyjal weapons in 2.3. |
I'll probably use a fast offhand anyway, but my Emerald Ripper will have to go I think.
Offhand speed actually doesn't matter much; thanks to a 0,625x damage multiplier and the cooldown. As long as it's not a dagger, all that matters is the difference in base damage. [Syphon of the Nathrezim], for example, has got 130 damage over [Swiftsteel Bludgeon] on average. Worst case (2/2 in Whirlwind) it will be around 14 DPS better, and that should be pretty much static. The rest of your damage comes from attack power, which thanks to normalisation is unaffected.
Wowhead and Thottbot are both currently displaying the "test" Whirlwind as requiring a one-handed weapon and doing 50% weapon damage. Is there any significance to this or am I being needlessly paranoid?
Thottbot World of Warcraft: Whirlwind
Whirlwind - Spells - World of Warcraft
Thottbot World of Warcraft: Whirlwind
Whirlwind - Spells - World of Warcraft
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Originally Posted by Lambach
Really, with 2 slow weapons, imp WW is pretty awesome. Rampage is still "eh" but ill be worth the one point. I even had a hard time getting impale in. Depating 2% hit or 2 in imp execute atm. Its a tough choice.
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Originally Posted by Birdemani
Isn't WW normalized because it is an instant attack? Therefore would it matter what the speed was of the OH as long as it wasn't a dagger.
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One thing that has been happening over the course of this game is Blizzard obsoleting gear choices.
For casters, the MH/OH versus staves selection (in terms of itemization points): we are seeing an endangered gear choice. Already, daggers (the defining weapon of a rogue?) are useless today to a raiding rogue as swords and fists prove superior, and maces are the choice for pvp. Enh shams have already seen the need for 2 slow weapons.
I suppose the warrior class is the final melee class to be pushed into subtle gear requirements to retain viability, when you take a look at the progression of gear choices.
For casters, the MH/OH versus staves selection (in terms of itemization points): we are seeing an endangered gear choice. Already, daggers (the defining weapon of a rogue?) are useless today to a raiding rogue as swords and fists prove superior, and maces are the choice for pvp. Enh shams have already seen the need for 2 slow weapons.
I suppose the warrior class is the final melee class to be pushed into subtle gear requirements to retain viability, when you take a look at the progression of gear choices.
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Originally Posted by peer
Wowhead and Thottbot are both currently displaying the "test" Whirlwind as requiring a one-handed weapon and doing 50% weapon damage. Is there any significance to this or am I being needlessly paranoid?
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My guess is that "trigger spell" you are seeing is for the off-hand Whirlwind attack.
Edited onPatch 2.2.3
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Originally Posted by peer
In the current PTR build, Imp. Berserker Stance appears to remove the damage taken penalty in addition to the AP boost and threat reduction.
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Last edited by Darkrenown : 10/21/07 at 1:39 PM.
The irony here is that 33/28 gets something to put the leftover 2 points in. Although I have actually been DPSing with Devastate lately, and it's proven fairly capable. I was surprised to be competitive with some of our DPS (close to 1k DPS), but then it probably does scale well with the gear that a dedicated tank is not going to get...
I really hate to do it too but... this ones for Hozz :P
Unleashed Gaming
Its actually a bit of a nerf to 33/28 style builds because it hold them off from flurry. It would be a nice change for fury tho.
If you're wondering its all the same except Dual Wield Spec and Enrage are swapped, with a requirement in DW spec to get flurry.
Unleashed Gaming
Its actually a bit of a nerf to 33/28 style builds because it hold them off from flurry. It would be a nice change for fury tho.
If you're wondering its all the same except Dual Wield Spec and Enrage are swapped, with a requirement in DW spec to get flurry.
They really need to unlink Enrage from Flurry, especially if they are trying to make up for the DPS loss with no Deathwish in the form of needing to pick up multiple new talents.
Also, Sweeping Strikes is a piece of shit talent for the PVE DPS tree, really. I dont want it linked to anything. It needs a haste component ala Blade Flurry or something that would make it useful on a boss.
edit: I will say that no extra damage taken in Berserker is a pretty nice stealth buff, lets hope it stays that way.
Also, Sweeping Strikes is a piece of shit talent for the PVE DPS tree, really. I dont want it linked to anything. It needs a haste component ala Blade Flurry or something that would make it useful on a boss.
edit: I will say that no extra damage taken in Berserker is a pretty nice stealth buff, lets hope it stays that way.
The damage component being removed might help you survive easier in some situations, but isn't it also lowering DPS even more, or do you think that the damage taken outweighs the additional rage gained?
I don't think that's anything but minimal, I'd consider it less relevant than taking demo shout over wrath for PvE.
Has anyone done any number crunching for 2.3 about execute?
I'm currently using a 2.7 and 2.6 in anticipation of the patch but have been wondering if it might be more productive to use 2 fast weapons for rage generation at 20%. I have a S2 OH that's 1.5 and if I can get another fast weapon for the MH, would it be better than using 2 slow weapons?
I'm currently using a 2.7 and 2.6 in anticipation of the patch but have been wondering if it might be more productive to use 2 fast weapons for rage generation at 20%. I have a S2 OH that's 1.5 and if I can get another fast weapon for the MH, would it be better than using 2 slow weapons?
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Originally Posted by Randor
Has anyone done any number crunching for 2.3 about execute?
I'm currently using a 2.7 and 2.6 in anticipation of the patch but have been wondering if it might be more productive to use 2 fast weapons for rage generation at 20%. I have a S2 OH that's 1.5 and if I can get another fast weapon for the MH, would it be better than using 2 slow weapons? |
Edited onPatch 2.2.3
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Originally Posted by dr_AllCOM3
It's like 2 DPS better, that means not worth it.
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In all honestly, I'd rather not have to switch weapons, but if it's going to be a boost, I'll do it. We already knew that Bloodthirst was a better use of rage if you ever spiked up to 30 during 20%, but I wonder if the same will hold true with WW now as well.
Quick napkin math yields the following results. Assume 3500 AP with [Wicked Edge of the Planes] main hand and [Rising Tide] off hand (results would be even better with 2x Season 3 weapons). Also assume 0 AC:
Bloodthirst - 1575 or 52 DPR
Whirlwind - 1401 or 56.05 DPR * hmm, is this off, or does this now mean WW should be prioritized?
Execute (15 rage) - 925 or 61.6 DPR
Execute (10 rage) - 925 or 92.5 DPR
Execute (20 rage) - 1030 or 51.5 DPR
Execute (Imp 20) - 1135 or 56.75
Execute (30 rage) - 1240 or 41.33 DPR
Execute (Imp 30 rage) - 1345 or 44.83 DPR
From what I can tell, if you ever even reach 20 rage without Imp Execute, it's a wash between that or just saving up for BT/WW. Threat shouldn't really be a factor, but since Execute has a threat component, maybe on some fights near the end BT/WW would be superior for that reason alone if all three are nearly equal for DPR. I doubt this would really matter, especially with the berserker stance change, but it may. And, until the expansion when we get another rank of Execute, it will continue to fall behind as gear improves.
Last edited by Graul : 10/20/07 at 4:33 PM.
Well, it is important to realize that Execute really hasn't scaled to reflect the changes in the Burning Crusade.
At level 60, execute did 600 damage + 15 damage per rage.
At level 70, it does 925 damage + 21 damage per rage.
Basing this comparison exclusively on player hitpoints, at level 60, you were doing good setting out to PvP with 4000 HP. Today? 10000 HP. In order to have a similar effect on a level 70 player as it used to have at level 60, it would need to be doing roughly 1500 base damage and 37 damage per rage.
I know this is somewhat misconstrued, as we are talking about PvE dps, however the point is that Execute really hasn't scaled well in the expansion.
At level 60, execute did 600 damage + 15 damage per rage.
At level 70, it does 925 damage + 21 damage per rage.
Basing this comparison exclusively on player hitpoints, at level 60, you were doing good setting out to PvP with 4000 HP. Today? 10000 HP. In order to have a similar effect on a level 70 player as it used to have at level 60, it would need to be doing roughly 1500 base damage and 37 damage per rage.
I know this is somewhat misconstrued, as we are talking about PvE dps, however the point is that Execute really hasn't scaled well in the expansion.
I'm rather interested in seeing how a pair of talonblades and the passive haste gun (all from ZA) fare in execute range.
The main problem is that Execute doesn't really scale. I'd wager that the rage increase through better white DPS isn't compensating much these days.
2 imp berserker/1 flurry feels like the way to go for 33/28 now, pve-wise; 10% more AP is awesome for slams to begin with. If imp berserker removes the penalty from berserker stance then that's a great pvp build too
Are you talking about Imp Berserker Stance, or Imp Berserker Rage? Imp BS gives 10% AP, but is 35 into Fury, Imp BR gives 10 rage every 30 seconds, and while I don't have the math, I'm not sure it would be better than 10% extra attack speed from flurry.
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Originally Posted by Fogbug
2 imp berserker/1 flurry feels like the way to go for 33/28 now, pve-wise; 10% more AP is awesome for slams to begin with. If imp berserker removes the penalty from berserker stance then that's a great pvp build too
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Imp. Berserkerstance, not -rage.
Edit: Beaten. :<
I'm confused, how do you get imp 'zerker stance with a 33/28 build? Or did I misread you horribly?
-edit, pfff. Like flies to shit we are.
-edit, pfff. Like flies to shit we are.
Ohhhh, Wondered why taking imp berserker stance never occurred to me before
Still I think switching imp berserker stance and imp berserker rage in the tree would be a pretty good idea how bout you folks
Still I think switching imp berserker stance and imp berserker rage in the tree would be a pretty good idea how bout you folks
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Originally Posted by Fogbug
Ohhhh, Wondered why taking imp berserker stance never occurred to me before
Still I think switching imp berserker stance and imp berserker rage in the tree would be a pretty good idea how bout you folks |
Imp Zerker Stance is pretty much the Flurry of TBC; it's the defining Fury talent that sets the tree apart from Arms for single target DPS.
I don't see how they can swap Enrage with anything else in the fury tree and have it make sense, I also don't see them removing the link between Enrage/Flurry either unless things start looking really bad for Fury warriors. Even then I'd imagine they would make a change deeper in the tree so Arms won't benefit since Arms is doing relatively well at the moment.
It would be really nice if they reduced enrage to 3 points making it 8%/16%/25%. It would kind of make sense too considering how many times the ability has been nerfed. Two of the most major I remember being Reduced damage increased from 40% to 25% and doesn't stack with Deathwish along with a bunch of minor nerfs. The two extra points would let Fury warriors keep their cookie cutter build and have the 2 extra points to put in to weapon mastery, for Arms warriors it would have small effect letting them pick up something like Improved Execute.
It would be really nice if they reduced enrage to 3 points making it 8%/16%/25%. It would kind of make sense too considering how many times the ability has been nerfed. Two of the most major I remember being Reduced damage increased from 40% to 25% and doesn't stack with Deathwish along with a bunch of minor nerfs. The two extra points would let Fury warriors keep their cookie cutter build and have the 2 extra points to put in to weapon mastery, for Arms warriors it would have small effect letting them pick up something like Improved Execute.
Edited onPatch 2.2.3
Sorry to stray off topic for a moment - and sorry if this topic has been covered, I've been looking in the last few pages and found nothing about it.
Does [Destroyer Battle-Helm]'s meta gem make it better that [Fel-Steel Warhelm]?
Losing that bit of hit is not a problem, so I'd be giving up some crit for a bit more AP + the meta gem, which would obviously be [Relentless Earthstorm Diamond].
Essentially I'll get:
-8 crit rating
-9 hit rating
+18 AP
+12 agility
3% increased crit damage.
Any thoughts on this? Thanks. I'm swaying in favor of T5, so far.
Does [Destroyer Battle-Helm]'s meta gem make it better that [Fel-Steel Warhelm]?
Losing that bit of hit is not a problem, so I'd be giving up some crit for a bit more AP + the meta gem, which would obviously be [Relentless Earthstorm Diamond].
Essentially I'll get:
-8 crit rating
-9 hit rating
+18 AP
+12 agility
3% increased crit damage.
Any thoughts on this? Thanks. I'm swaying in favor of T5, so far.
Last edited by Zalein : 10/22/07 at 4:45 AM.
Fel-Steel is amazing for DW fury. I'd say go with it if DWing, go with T5 if you use a 2hander.
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Originally Posted by mikebro
I don't see how they can swap Enrage with anything else in the fury tree and have it make sense, I also don't see them removing the link between Enrage/Flurry either unless things start looking really bad for Fury warriors. Even then I'd imagine they would make a change deeper in the tree so Arms won't benefit since Arms is doing relatively well at the moment.
It would be really nice if they reduced enrage to 3 points making it 8%/16%/25%. It would kind of make sense too considering how many times the ability has been nerfed. Two of the most major I remember being Reduced damage increased from 40% to 25% and doesn't stack with Deathwish along with a bunch of minor nerfs. The two extra points would let Fury warriors keep their cookie cutter build and have the 2 extra points to put in to weapon mastery, for Arms warriors it would have small effect letting them pick up something like Improved Execute. |
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Originally Posted by Randor
Fel-Steel is amazing for DW fury. I'd say go with it if DWing, go with T5 if you use a 2hander.
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| The could swop DW specialization and Enrage. An Arms (or PvP) warrior would need to consider points in fury a little more to get Enrage vs some other talents. And DW specialization and flurry seem to go hand in hand. And that would remove a pvp aspect from a mostly pve tree while still allowing the option to go the Enrage route. |
This make sense and would fix the fury spec failure that is 2.3 somewhat.
Edited onPatch 2.2.3
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Originally Posted by peer
In the current PTR build, Imp. Berserker Stance appears to remove the damage taken penalty in addition to the AP boost and threat reduction.
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Last edited by Darkrenown : 10/21/07 at 1:39 PM.
The irony here is that 33/28 gets something to put the leftover 2 points in. Although I have actually been DPSing with Devastate lately, and it's proven fairly capable. I was surprised to be competitive with some of our DPS (close to 1k DPS), but then it probably does scale well with the gear that a dedicated tank is not going to get...
I really hate to do it too but... this ones for Hozz :P
Unleashed Gaming
Its actually a bit of a nerf to 33/28 style builds because it hold them off from flurry. It would be a nice change for fury tho.
If you're wondering its all the same except Dual Wield Spec and Enrage are swapped, with a requirement in DW spec to get flurry.
Unleashed Gaming
Its actually a bit of a nerf to 33/28 style builds because it hold them off from flurry. It would be a nice change for fury tho.
If you're wondering its all the same except Dual Wield Spec and Enrage are swapped, with a requirement in DW spec to get flurry.
They really need to unlink Enrage from Flurry, especially if they are trying to make up for the DPS loss with no Deathwish in the form of needing to pick up multiple new talents.
Also, Sweeping Strikes is a piece of shit talent for the PVE DPS tree, really. I dont want it linked to anything. It needs a haste component ala Blade Flurry or something that would make it useful on a boss.
edit: I will say that no extra damage taken in Berserker is a pretty nice stealth buff, lets hope it stays that way.
Also, Sweeping Strikes is a piece of shit talent for the PVE DPS tree, really. I dont want it linked to anything. It needs a haste component ala Blade Flurry or something that would make it useful on a boss.
edit: I will say that no extra damage taken in Berserker is a pretty nice stealth buff, lets hope it stays that way.
The damage component being removed might help you survive easier in some situations, but isn't it also lowering DPS even more, or do you think that the damage taken outweighs the additional rage gained?
I don't think that's anything but minimal, I'd consider it less relevant than taking demo shout over wrath for PvE.
Has anyone done any number crunching for 2.3 about execute?
I'm currently using a 2.7 and 2.6 in anticipation of the patch but have been wondering if it might be more productive to use 2 fast weapons for rage generation at 20%. I have a S2 OH that's 1.5 and if I can get another fast weapon for the MH, would it be better than using 2 slow weapons?
I'm currently using a 2.7 and 2.6 in anticipation of the patch but have been wondering if it might be more productive to use 2 fast weapons for rage generation at 20%. I have a S2 OH that's 1.5 and if I can get another fast weapon for the MH, would it be better than using 2 slow weapons?
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Originally Posted by Randor
Has anyone done any number crunching for 2.3 about execute?
I'm currently using a 2.7 and 2.6 in anticipation of the patch but have been wondering if it might be more productive to use 2 fast weapons for rage generation at 20%. I have a S2 OH that's 1.5 and if I can get another fast weapon for the MH, would it be better than using 2 slow weapons? |
Edited onPatch 2.2.3
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Originally Posted by dr_AllCOM3
It's like 2 DPS better, that means not worth it.
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In all honestly, I'd rather not have to switch weapons, but if it's going to be a boost, I'll do it. We already knew that Bloodthirst was a better use of rage if you ever spiked up to 30 during 20%, but I wonder if the same will hold true with WW now as well.
Quick napkin math yields the following results. Assume 3500 AP with [Wicked Edge of the Planes] main hand and [Rising Tide] off hand (results would be even better with 2x Season 3 weapons). Also assume 0 AC:
Bloodthirst - 1575 or 52 DPR
Whirlwind - 1401 or 56.05 DPR * hmm, is this off, or does this now mean WW should be prioritized?
Execute (15 rage) - 925 or 61.6 DPR
Execute (10 rage) - 925 or 92.5 DPR
Execute (20 rage) - 1030 or 51.5 DPR
Execute (Imp 20) - 1135 or 56.75
Execute (30 rage) - 1240 or 41.33 DPR
Execute (Imp 30 rage) - 1345 or 44.83 DPR
From what I can tell, if you ever even reach 20 rage without Imp Execute, it's a wash between that or just saving up for BT/WW. Threat shouldn't really be a factor, but since Execute has a threat component, maybe on some fights near the end BT/WW would be superior for that reason alone if all three are nearly equal for DPR. I doubt this would really matter, especially with the berserker stance change, but it may. And, until the expansion when we get another rank of Execute, it will continue to fall behind as gear improves.
Last edited by Graul : 10/20/07 at 4:33 PM.
Well, it is important to realize that Execute really hasn't scaled to reflect the changes in the Burning Crusade.
At level 60, execute did 600 damage + 15 damage per rage.
At level 70, it does 925 damage + 21 damage per rage.
Basing this comparison exclusively on player hitpoints, at level 60, you were doing good setting out to PvP with 4000 HP. Today? 10000 HP. In order to have a similar effect on a level 70 player as it used to have at level 60, it would need to be doing roughly 1500 base damage and 37 damage per rage.
I know this is somewhat misconstrued, as we are talking about PvE dps, however the point is that Execute really hasn't scaled well in the expansion.
At level 60, execute did 600 damage + 15 damage per rage.
At level 70, it does 925 damage + 21 damage per rage.
Basing this comparison exclusively on player hitpoints, at level 60, you were doing good setting out to PvP with 4000 HP. Today? 10000 HP. In order to have a similar effect on a level 70 player as it used to have at level 60, it would need to be doing roughly 1500 base damage and 37 damage per rage.
I know this is somewhat misconstrued, as we are talking about PvE dps, however the point is that Execute really hasn't scaled well in the expansion.
I'm rather interested in seeing how a pair of talonblades and the passive haste gun (all from ZA) fare in execute range.
The main problem is that Execute doesn't really scale. I'd wager that the rage increase through better white DPS isn't compensating much these days.
2 imp berserker/1 flurry feels like the way to go for 33/28 now, pve-wise; 10% more AP is awesome for slams to begin with. If imp berserker removes the penalty from berserker stance then that's a great pvp build too
Are you talking about Imp Berserker Stance, or Imp Berserker Rage? Imp BS gives 10% AP, but is 35 into Fury, Imp BR gives 10 rage every 30 seconds, and while I don't have the math, I'm not sure it would be better than 10% extra attack speed from flurry.
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Originally Posted by Fogbug
2 imp berserker/1 flurry feels like the way to go for 33/28 now, pve-wise; 10% more AP is awesome for slams to begin with. If imp berserker removes the penalty from berserker stance then that's a great pvp build too
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Imp. Berserkerstance, not -rage.
Edit: Beaten. :<
I'm confused, how do you get imp 'zerker stance with a 33/28 build? Or did I misread you horribly?
-edit, pfff. Like flies to shit we are.
-edit, pfff. Like flies to shit we are.
Ohhhh, Wondered why taking imp berserker stance never occurred to me before
Still I think switching imp berserker stance and imp berserker rage in the tree would be a pretty good idea how bout you folks
Still I think switching imp berserker stance and imp berserker rage in the tree would be a pretty good idea how bout you folks
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Originally Posted by Fogbug
Ohhhh, Wondered why taking imp berserker stance never occurred to me before
Still I think switching imp berserker stance and imp berserker rage in the tree would be a pretty good idea how bout you folks |
Imp Zerker Stance is pretty much the Flurry of TBC; it's the defining Fury talent that sets the tree apart from Arms for single target DPS.
I don't see how they can swap Enrage with anything else in the fury tree and have it make sense, I also don't see them removing the link between Enrage/Flurry either unless things start looking really bad for Fury warriors. Even then I'd imagine they would make a change deeper in the tree so Arms won't benefit since Arms is doing relatively well at the moment.
It would be really nice if they reduced enrage to 3 points making it 8%/16%/25%. It would kind of make sense too considering how many times the ability has been nerfed. Two of the most major I remember being Reduced damage increased from 40% to 25% and doesn't stack with Deathwish along with a bunch of minor nerfs. The two extra points would let Fury warriors keep their cookie cutter build and have the 2 extra points to put in to weapon mastery, for Arms warriors it would have small effect letting them pick up something like Improved Execute.
It would be really nice if they reduced enrage to 3 points making it 8%/16%/25%. It would kind of make sense too considering how many times the ability has been nerfed. Two of the most major I remember being Reduced damage increased from 40% to 25% and doesn't stack with Deathwish along with a bunch of minor nerfs. The two extra points would let Fury warriors keep their cookie cutter build and have the 2 extra points to put in to weapon mastery, for Arms warriors it would have small effect letting them pick up something like Improved Execute.
Edited onPatch 2.2.3
Sorry to stray off topic for a moment - and sorry if this topic has been covered, I've been looking in the last few pages and found nothing about it.
Does [Destroyer Battle-Helm]'s meta gem make it better that [Fel-Steel Warhelm]?
Losing that bit of hit is not a problem, so I'd be giving up some crit for a bit more AP + the meta gem, which would obviously be [Relentless Earthstorm Diamond].
Essentially I'll get:
-8 crit rating
-9 hit rating
+18 AP
+12 agility
3% increased crit damage.
Any thoughts on this? Thanks. I'm swaying in favor of T5, so far.
Does [Destroyer Battle-Helm]'s meta gem make it better that [Fel-Steel Warhelm]?
Losing that bit of hit is not a problem, so I'd be giving up some crit for a bit more AP + the meta gem, which would obviously be [Relentless Earthstorm Diamond].
Essentially I'll get:
-8 crit rating
-9 hit rating
+18 AP
+12 agility
3% increased crit damage.
Any thoughts on this? Thanks. I'm swaying in favor of T5, so far.
Last edited by Zalein : 10/22/07 at 4:45 AM.
Fel-Steel is amazing for DW fury. I'd say go with it if DWing, go with T5 if you use a 2hander.
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Originally Posted by mikebro
I don't see how they can swap Enrage with anything else in the fury tree and have it make sense, I also don't see them removing the link between Enrage/Flurry either unless things start looking really bad for Fury warriors. Even then I'd imagine they would make a change deeper in the tree so Arms won't benefit since Arms is doing relatively well at the moment.
It would be really nice if they reduced enrage to 3 points making it 8%/16%/25%. It would kind of make sense too considering how many times the ability has been nerfed. Two of the most major I remember being Reduced damage increased from 40% to 25% and doesn't stack with Deathwish along with a bunch of minor nerfs. The two extra points would let Fury warriors keep their cookie cutter build and have the 2 extra points to put in to weapon mastery, for Arms warriors it would have small effect letting them pick up something like Improved Execute. |
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Originally Posted by Randor
Fel-Steel is amazing for DW fury. I'd say go with it if DWing, go with T5 if you use a 2hander.
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| The could swop DW specialization and Enrage. An Arms (or PvP) warrior would need to consider points in fury a little more to get Enrage vs some other talents. And DW specialization and flurry seem to go hand in hand. And that would remove a pvp aspect from a mostly pve tree while still allowing the option to go the Enrage route. |
This make sense and would fix the fury spec failure that is 2.3 somewhat.
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Originally Posted by Randor
Fel-Steel is amazing for DW fury. I'd say go with it if DWing, go with T5 if you use a 2hander.
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Im currently using Fell-Steel and my biggest possible upgrade in the game (bar DST) is a good dps helm with a meta socket (T5 included), at least according to the spreadsheet..
The same here. According to the spreadsheet, Engineer Helm + Meta socket is better than Fel-steel Helm.
I hope I'm not off-topic but I tested Sweeping Strikes + Cleave and Sweeping Strikes + Whirlwind on the current PTR. On one side SS copies both attacks of Cleave (meaning that the target's cleave damage is done to the neighbour with SS and the neighbour's cleave damage is done to the focus with SS, thus making 4 strikes at once), on the other side only one attack of WW is copied. Dual-wielding WW, only the MH damage is used by SS. As I never used SS, being a DW-Fury for a while, I don't know if it currently works like this.
I hope I'm not off-topic but I tested Sweeping Strikes + Cleave and Sweeping Strikes + Whirlwind on the current PTR. On one side SS copies both attacks of Cleave (meaning that the target's cleave damage is done to the neighbour with SS and the neighbour's cleave damage is done to the focus with SS, thus making 4 strikes at once), on the other side only one attack of WW is copied. Dual-wielding WW, only the MH damage is used by SS. As I never used SS, being a DW-Fury for a while, I don't know if it currently works like this.
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Originally Posted by Ondskapt
The same here. According to the spreadsheet, Engineer Helm + Meta socket is better than Fel-steel Helm.
I hope I'm not off-topic but I tested Sweeping Strikes + Cleave and Sweeping Strikes + Whirlwind on the current PTR. On one side SS copies both attacks of Cleave (meaning that the target's cleave damage is done to the neighbour with SS and the neighbour's cleave damage is done to the focus with SS, thus making 4 strikes at once), on the other side only one attack of WW is copied. Dual-wielding WW, only the MH damage is used by SS. As I never used SS, being a DW-Fury for a while, I don't know if it currently works like this. |
| The could swop DW specialization and Enrage. An Arms (or PvP) warrior would need to consider points in fury a little more to get Enrage vs some other talents. And DW specialization and flurry seem to go hand in hand. And that would remove a pvp aspect from a mostly pve tree while still allowing the option to go the Enrage route. |
I think arms is fine and that the focus should be on improving fury's PvP performance along with its raid dps (and the imp berserker stance change is a very significant pvp buff, though not really enough on its' own). Unlinking enrage and flurry makes sense too, but linking DW with flurry instead definitely doesn't.
| I think arms is fine and that the focus should be on improving fury's PvP performance along with its raid dps (and the imp berserker stance change is a very significant pvp buff, though not really enough on its' own). Unlinking enrage and flurry makes sense too, but linking DW with flurry instead definitely doesn't. |
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Originally Posted by Randor
The could swop DW specialization and Enrage. An Arms (or PvP) warrior would need to consider points in fury a little more to get Enrage vs some other talents. And DW specialization and flurry seem to go hand in hand. And that would remove a pvp aspect from a mostly pve tree while still allowing the option to go the Enrage route.
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I also think that Sweeping Strikes should not be linked to anything. Its kind of an insult to force you to spend the same 1 talent point you used to spend on Deathwish for a talent that is so completely underwhelming and terrible compared to what it 'replaced'. That or give Sweeping Strikes a buff component ala Blade Flurry.
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Originally Posted by Randor
The could swop DW specialization and Enrage. An Arms (or PvP) warrior would need to consider points in fury a little more to get Enrage vs some other talents. And DW specialization and flurry seem to go hand in hand. And that would remove a pvp aspect from a mostly pve tree while still allowing the option to go the Enrage route.
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Originally Posted by Darkrenown
Arms is a PvE spec too. Also swapping DW and enrage would not stop PvE arms warriors getting flurry. Spending 5 points on useless enrage is exactly the same as spending 5 points on useless DW spec.
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I'm not trying to pass it off as something incredible, but at least it does something. DW spec would just be 5 absolutely useless points to put 3 in an extremely good talent. It would also make the talent trees feel more restrictive "If you want to 2h you must be arms, if you want to dw you must be fury, if you want to swoard/board you must be prot" which isn't true. 2H fury does respectable damage, so why shouldn't it have a viable path down the fury tree as well?
Edited onPatch 2.2.3
| The could swop DW specialization and Enrage. An Arms (or PvP) warrior would need to consider points in fury a little more to get Enrage vs some other talents. And DW specialization and flurry seem to go hand in hand. And that would remove a pvp aspect from a mostly pve tree while still allowing the option to go the Enrage route. |
In my opinion, a small reduction in the points required to get the required talents would be preferable, for example reducing some of the 5-point talents to 3 points with the same effect. Right now, and even more so in 2.3, there is very little freedom for DW Fury warriors to spend their points, almost everyone has the same spec, and I don't think any dedicated DW PvE-warriors will consider taking the improved tactical mastery, however nice it is for DPS-warrior tanking utility, simply because they can't spare the points.
Last edited by Shini : 10/22/07 at 1:06 PM.
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Originally Posted by Fogbug
I think arms is fine and that the focus should be on improving fury's PvP performance along with its raid dps (and the imp berserker stance change is a very significant pvp buff, though not really enough on its' own). Unlinking enrage and flurry makes sense too, but linking DW with flurry instead definitely doesn't.
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Point is: Arms PvE spec is more or less unaffected after the patch, plus you get most of the PvP goodies as well.
All the buffs to fury tree look nice, still you can either decide between ditching deep wounds and impale or leaving out one of those nifty new talents, which should improve PvE dps. Unlinking enrage or a point reduction in talents like DW spec could fix that.
Unless you run with a 2nd warrior, fury has no place in arena in my opinion. MS is just too strong in group pvp and even if you would take a 2nd melee, you would probably take a rogue for CC/timers. Fair trade off would be to make fury the king of PvE dps, but sadly thats not true at the moment.
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Originally Posted by D4vE
Uhm, did I overlook something or why is a 10% threat reduction talent a significant PvP buff?
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Originally Posted by Shini
That doesn't solve the problem. Instead of dual-wielding warriors having to waste 5 points to get Flurry, 2-hand warriors would have to waste 5 points to get Flurry.
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Originally Posted by Brissa
The spreadsheet tells quite another story.
Im currently using Fell-Steel and my biggest possible upgrade in the game (bar DST) is a good dps helm with a meta socket (T5 included), at least according to the spreadsheet.. |
Coming back to the 2.3 changes, I am extremely dissapointed in the reduction in effectiveness of weapon mastery. Its still a buff from precision, however I can't help but feel that we are back in the initial state of the patching being a nerf to Fury overall.
Frankly the reasons for the Deathwish change cited by Bornakk don't make any sense:
| Some warriors felt forced to pickup certain talents and this left them with few options. This change could allow people in these situations to have some extra options while the weapon expertise and threat reduction improvements to the deep end of the fury tree allow for more consistent sustained damage. |
The change to improved berserker stance was something of a surprise - I was actually thinking that they should replace Improved Mortal Strike with a talent called "Inner Balance" that would remove 2/4/6/8/10% of the bonus damage in Berserker Stance, as it would be more of a PvP benefit. It might also make deep arms more worthwhile.
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Originally Posted by Gaise
At the moment, it's also removing the additional damage we take.
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- Increases AP in zerk stance by 2/4/6/8/10%
- Decreases threat gen in zerk stance by 2/4/6/8/10%
- Decreases dmg taken in zerk stance by 2/4/6/8/10% (effectively giving zerk stance 3% additional crit, with no inc dmg penalty)?
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Originally Posted by mikebro
Enrage isn't entirely useless, fights with adds have a chance to proc it and right now I'm doing pve in a significant amount of resilience (over 200) so *any* damage I take has a 5-6% chance of triggering enrage.
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It being in the Fury tree as a prereq for Flurry is the issue. Those speccing Flurry are speccing for purebred dps. Sure, as a fury/prot raider I enjoyed having Enrage proc while on tanking duty (the aforementioned resilience benefit), but it does absolutely nothing for me dps-wise. And, of course, the only reason I picked it up, was for Flurry. There is no synergy between the talents, albeit both are synergic with the overall Fury theme.
| hence, Enrage belongs in the Fury tree themewise |
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Originally Posted by Graul
Obviously Blizzard doesn't care about what makes sense themewise with the removal of Death Wish.
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I have a question about haste rating, and this seemed like the appropriate thread for it:
Does Slam get affected by haste?
Does Slam get affected by haste?
Unfortunately not
Edited onPatch 2.2.3
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Originally Posted by ikevlari
I have a question about haste rating, and this seemed like the appropriate thread for it:
Does Slam get affected by haste? |
Edit: Just tested again - I could have sworn it was affected in the past.... I guess my eyes are playing tricks on me.
Last edited by Kiranat : 10/22/07 at 4:40 PM.
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Originally Posted by Kiranat
I'm almost positive that it does, at least by DST procs.
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Originally Posted by ikevlari
I have a question about haste rating, and this seemed like the appropriate thread for it:
Does Slam get affected by haste? |
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Originally Posted by Emeraude
Would be interesting if it was effected by spell haste similar to how taunt is effected by spell hit =o
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Inregards to haste, does haste only effect your white dps when duel weilding or does it effect your yellow damage as well?
Im currently in the position were I can pick up a few peices of haste gear. All should i focus on -amour gear.
I was thinking of perhaps a balance of maybe 2 or 3 peices of haste gear and 2 or 3 peices of -amour gear would work best.
Im currently in the position were I can pick up a few peices of haste gear. All should i focus on -amour gear.
I was thinking of perhaps a balance of maybe 2 or 3 peices of haste gear and 2 or 3 peices of -amour gear would work best.
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Originally Posted by ckaparos
Inregards to haste, does haste only effect your white dps when duel weilding or does it effect your yellow damage as well?
Im currently in the position were I can pick up a few peices of haste gear. All should i focus on -amour gear. I was thinking of perhaps a balance of maybe 2 or 3 peices of haste gear and 2 or 3 peices of -amour gear would work best. |
help with weapons
So, as for fury. Which combination of 2 would best suit me. according to my armory.
Thottbot World of Warcraft: Rising Tide - rising tide
Thottbot World of Warcraft: Wicked Edge of the Planes - wicked edge of the plains
Thottbot World of Warcraft: Swiftsteel Bludgeon - swiftsteel bludgeon
Thottbot World of Warcraft: Merciless Gladiator's Hacker - merciless gladiator hacker
And any other weapons. werei n hyjal//bt now so im curious how far wicked edge will take me and the merc axe OH.
The World of Warcraft Armory
Thottbot World of Warcraft: Rising Tide - rising tide
Thottbot World of Warcraft: Wicked Edge of the Planes - wicked edge of the plains
Thottbot World of Warcraft: Swiftsteel Bludgeon - swiftsteel bludgeon
Thottbot World of Warcraft: Merciless Gladiator's Hacker - merciless gladiator hacker
And any other weapons. werei n hyjal//bt now so im curious how far wicked edge will take me and the merc axe OH.
The World of Warcraft Armory
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Originally Posted by Randor
Fel-Steel is amazing for DW fury. I'd say go with it if DWing, go with T5 if you use a 2hander.
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Im currently using Fell-Steel and my biggest possible upgrade in the game (bar DST) is a good dps helm with a meta socket (T5 included), at least according to the spreadsheet..
The same here. According to the spreadsheet, Engineer Helm + Meta socket is better than Fel-steel Helm.
I hope I'm not off-topic but I tested Sweeping Strikes + Cleave and Sweeping Strikes + Whirlwind on the current PTR. On one side SS copies both attacks of Cleave (meaning that the target's cleave damage is done to the neighbour with SS and the neighbour's cleave damage is done to the focus with SS, thus making 4 strikes at once), on the other side only one attack of WW is copied. Dual-wielding WW, only the MH damage is used by SS. As I never used SS, being a DW-Fury for a while, I don't know if it currently works like this.
I hope I'm not off-topic but I tested Sweeping Strikes + Cleave and Sweeping Strikes + Whirlwind on the current PTR. On one side SS copies both attacks of Cleave (meaning that the target's cleave damage is done to the neighbour with SS and the neighbour's cleave damage is done to the focus with SS, thus making 4 strikes at once), on the other side only one attack of WW is copied. Dual-wielding WW, only the MH damage is used by SS. As I never used SS, being a DW-Fury for a while, I don't know if it currently works like this.
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Originally Posted by Ondskapt
The same here. According to the spreadsheet, Engineer Helm + Meta socket is better than Fel-steel Helm.
I hope I'm not off-topic but I tested Sweeping Strikes + Cleave and Sweeping Strikes + Whirlwind on the current PTR. On one side SS copies both attacks of Cleave (meaning that the target's cleave damage is done to the neighbour with SS and the neighbour's cleave damage is done to the focus with SS, thus making 4 strikes at once), on the other side only one attack of WW is copied. Dual-wielding WW, only the MH damage is used by SS. As I never used SS, being a DW-Fury for a while, I don't know if it currently works like this. |
| The could swop DW specialization and Enrage. An Arms (or PvP) warrior would need to consider points in fury a little more to get Enrage vs some other talents. And DW specialization and flurry seem to go hand in hand. And that would remove a pvp aspect from a mostly pve tree while still allowing the option to go the Enrage route. |
I think arms is fine and that the focus should be on improving fury's PvP performance along with its raid dps (and the imp berserker stance change is a very significant pvp buff, though not really enough on its' own). Unlinking enrage and flurry makes sense too, but linking DW with flurry instead definitely doesn't.
| I think arms is fine and that the focus should be on improving fury's PvP performance along with its raid dps (and the imp berserker stance change is a very significant pvp buff, though not really enough on its' own). Unlinking enrage and flurry makes sense too, but linking DW with flurry instead definitely doesn't. |
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Originally Posted by Randor
The could swop DW specialization and Enrage. An Arms (or PvP) warrior would need to consider points in fury a little more to get Enrage vs some other talents. And DW specialization and flurry seem to go hand in hand. And that would remove a pvp aspect from a mostly pve tree while still allowing the option to go the Enrage route.
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I also think that Sweeping Strikes should not be linked to anything. Its kind of an insult to force you to spend the same 1 talent point you used to spend on Deathwish for a talent that is so completely underwhelming and terrible compared to what it 'replaced'. That or give Sweeping Strikes a buff component ala Blade Flurry.
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Originally Posted by Randor
The could swop DW specialization and Enrage. An Arms (or PvP) warrior would need to consider points in fury a little more to get Enrage vs some other talents. And DW specialization and flurry seem to go hand in hand. And that would remove a pvp aspect from a mostly pve tree while still allowing the option to go the Enrage route.
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Originally Posted by Darkrenown
Arms is a PvE spec too. Also swapping DW and enrage would not stop PvE arms warriors getting flurry. Spending 5 points on useless enrage is exactly the same as spending 5 points on useless DW spec.
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I'm not trying to pass it off as something incredible, but at least it does something. DW spec would just be 5 absolutely useless points to put 3 in an extremely good talent. It would also make the talent trees feel more restrictive "If you want to 2h you must be arms, if you want to dw you must be fury, if you want to swoard/board you must be prot" which isn't true. 2H fury does respectable damage, so why shouldn't it have a viable path down the fury tree as well?
Edited onPatch 2.2.3
| The could swop DW specialization and Enrage. An Arms (or PvP) warrior would need to consider points in fury a little more to get Enrage vs some other talents. And DW specialization and flurry seem to go hand in hand. And that would remove a pvp aspect from a mostly pve tree while still allowing the option to go the Enrage route. |
In my opinion, a small reduction in the points required to get the required talents would be preferable, for example reducing some of the 5-point talents to 3 points with the same effect. Right now, and even more so in 2.3, there is very little freedom for DW Fury warriors to spend their points, almost everyone has the same spec, and I don't think any dedicated DW PvE-warriors will consider taking the improved tactical mastery, however nice it is for DPS-warrior tanking utility, simply because they can't spare the points.
Last edited by Shini : 10/22/07 at 1:06 PM.
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Originally Posted by Fogbug
I think arms is fine and that the focus should be on improving fury's PvP performance along with its raid dps (and the imp berserker stance change is a very significant pvp buff, though not really enough on its' own). Unlinking enrage and flurry makes sense too, but linking DW with flurry instead definitely doesn't.
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Point is: Arms PvE spec is more or less unaffected after the patch, plus you get most of the PvP goodies as well.
All the buffs to fury tree look nice, still you can either decide between ditching deep wounds and impale or leaving out one of those nifty new talents, which should improve PvE dps. Unlinking enrage or a point reduction in talents like DW spec could fix that.
Unless you run with a 2nd warrior, fury has no place in arena in my opinion. MS is just too strong in group pvp and even if you would take a 2nd melee, you would probably take a rogue for CC/timers. Fair trade off would be to make fury the king of PvE dps, but sadly thats not true at the moment.
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Originally Posted by D4vE
Uhm, did I overlook something or why is a 10% threat reduction talent a significant PvP buff?
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Originally Posted by Shini
That doesn't solve the problem. Instead of dual-wielding warriors having to waste 5 points to get Flurry, 2-hand warriors would have to waste 5 points to get Flurry.
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Originally Posted by Brissa
The spreadsheet tells quite another story.
Im currently using Fell-Steel and my biggest possible upgrade in the game (bar DST) is a good dps helm with a meta socket (T5 included), at least according to the spreadsheet.. |
Coming back to the 2.3 changes, I am extremely dissapointed in the reduction in effectiveness of weapon mastery. Its still a buff from precision, however I can't help but feel that we are back in the initial state of the patching being a nerf to Fury overall.
Frankly the reasons for the Deathwish change cited by Bornakk don't make any sense:
| Some warriors felt forced to pickup certain talents and this left them with few options. This change could allow people in these situations to have some extra options while the weapon expertise and threat reduction improvements to the deep end of the fury tree allow for more consistent sustained damage. |
The change to improved berserker stance was something of a surprise - I was actually thinking that they should replace Improved Mortal Strike with a talent called "Inner Balance" that would remove 2/4/6/8/10% of the bonus damage in Berserker Stance, as it would be more of a PvP benefit. It might also make deep arms more worthwhile.
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Originally Posted by Gaise
At the moment, it's also removing the additional damage we take.
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- Increases AP in zerk stance by 2/4/6/8/10%
- Decreases threat gen in zerk stance by 2/4/6/8/10%
- Decreases dmg taken in zerk stance by 2/4/6/8/10% (effectively giving zerk stance 3% additional crit, with no inc dmg penalty)?
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Originally Posted by mikebro
Enrage isn't entirely useless, fights with adds have a chance to proc it and right now I'm doing pve in a significant amount of resilience (over 200) so *any* damage I take has a 5-6% chance of triggering enrage.
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It being in the Fury tree as a prereq for Flurry is the issue. Those speccing Flurry are speccing for purebred dps. Sure, as a fury/prot raider I enjoyed having Enrage proc while on tanking duty (the aforementioned resilience benefit), but it does absolutely nothing for me dps-wise. And, of course, the only reason I picked it up, was for Flurry. There is no synergy between the talents, albeit both are synergic with the overall Fury theme.
| hence, Enrage belongs in the Fury tree themewise |
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Originally Posted by Graul
Obviously Blizzard doesn't care about what makes sense themewise with the removal of Death Wish.
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I have a question about haste rating, and this seemed like the appropriate thread for it:
Does Slam get affected by haste?
Does Slam get affected by haste?
Unfortunately not
Edited onPatch 2.2.3
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Originally Posted by ikevlari
I have a question about haste rating, and this seemed like the appropriate thread for it:
Does Slam get affected by haste? |
Edit: Just tested again - I could have sworn it was affected in the past.... I guess my eyes are playing tricks on me.
Last edited by Kiranat : 10/22/07 at 4:40 PM.
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Originally Posted by Kiranat
I'm almost positive that it does, at least by DST procs.
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Originally Posted by ikevlari
I have a question about haste rating, and this seemed like the appropriate thread for it:
Does Slam get affected by haste? |
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Originally Posted by Emeraude
Would be interesting if it was effected by spell haste similar to how taunt is effected by spell hit =o
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Inregards to haste, does haste only effect your white dps when duel weilding or does it effect your yellow damage as well?
Im currently in the position were I can pick up a few peices of haste gear. All should i focus on -amour gear.
I was thinking of perhaps a balance of maybe 2 or 3 peices of haste gear and 2 or 3 peices of -amour gear would work best.
Im currently in the position were I can pick up a few peices of haste gear. All should i focus on -amour gear.
I was thinking of perhaps a balance of maybe 2 or 3 peices of haste gear and 2 or 3 peices of -amour gear would work best.
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Originally Posted by ckaparos
Inregards to haste, does haste only effect your white dps when duel weilding or does it effect your yellow damage as well?
Im currently in the position were I can pick up a few peices of haste gear. All should i focus on -amour gear. I was thinking of perhaps a balance of maybe 2 or 3 peices of haste gear and 2 or 3 peices of -amour gear would work best. |
help with weapons
So, as for fury. Which combination of 2 would best suit me. according to my armory.
Thottbot World of Warcraft: Rising Tide - rising tide
Thottbot World of Warcraft: Wicked Edge of the Planes - wicked edge of the plains
Thottbot World of Warcraft: Swiftsteel Bludgeon - swiftsteel bludgeon
Thottbot World of Warcraft: Merciless Gladiator's Hacker - merciless gladiator hacker
And any other weapons. werei n hyjal//bt now so im curious how far wicked edge will take me and the merc axe OH.
The World of Warcraft Armory
Thottbot World of Warcraft: Rising Tide - rising tide
Thottbot World of Warcraft: Wicked Edge of the Planes - wicked edge of the plains
Thottbot World of Warcraft: Swiftsteel Bludgeon - swiftsteel bludgeon
Thottbot World of Warcraft: Merciless Gladiator's Hacker - merciless gladiator hacker
And any other weapons. werei n hyjal//bt now so im curious how far wicked edge will take me and the merc axe OH.
The World of Warcraft Armory
Uh.. It's quite common for dps warriors to pull aggro. With no aggro dumps at all like a Rogue has, and damage scaling so well with high end gear, AND tanks stacking so much avoidance leading to a possible lack of rage, its quite possible for warriors to pull aggro. Its not a myth and its definitely not bragging - there's nothing I like less than watching the fight from the ground after forgetting to watch Omen.
I've been blessed with some pretty good tanks for BC, I can sustain 1200 DPS, and generally only have to watch it at 20%.
It goes from a guild to guild basis how threat capped you are, can/be.
It goes from a guild to guild basis how threat capped you are, can/be.
They could nerf MS to not give the -50% healing debuff anymore, and have it added back for 10% per point via improved MS. That'd definitely split PvE Arms with PvP Arms. Then give Fury back DW/imp. Intercept, swap imp. Slam and Weapon Mastery, unlink Enrage/Flurry and put a PvP talent in deep Fury (a stun proc on Rampage?).
Make Fury the clear PvE spec, while boosting it's relative PvP viability a little. PvP arms would be 40+/x/y spec, losing imp. Intercept, but keeping imp. Slam. They then have the choice of going 21 Fury for more PvE damage, or putting a few points in Prot for some tanking viability (casual tanking/PvP spec). PVE Arms/Fury would have the same damage output as today, but no MS debuff. Or they could put ~21 points in Prot for a PvE hybrid raid spec (while keeping imp. Slam/Blood Frenzy/imp. Intercept).
If you think PvP arms is nerfed too much, you could change Dual Wield Spec to a 3 point talent (8/16/25) and Precision to a 5 point talent (1/2/3/4/5) and swap their locations around.
Good/bad ideas?
Make Fury the clear PvE spec, while boosting it's relative PvP viability a little. PvP arms would be 40+/x/y spec, losing imp. Intercept, but keeping imp. Slam. They then have the choice of going 21 Fury for more PvE damage, or putting a few points in Prot for some tanking viability (casual tanking/PvP spec). PVE Arms/Fury would have the same damage output as today, but no MS debuff. Or they could put ~21 points in Prot for a PvE hybrid raid spec (while keeping imp. Slam/Blood Frenzy/imp. Intercept).
If you think PvP arms is nerfed too much, you could change Dual Wield Spec to a 3 point talent (8/16/25) and Precision to a 5 point talent (1/2/3/4/5) and swap their locations around.
Good/bad ideas?
Wanted to bring something up that I've been noticing lately.
What are your thoughts on spamstring vs Heroic Strike as things stand now?
What I'm seeing so far is that spamstring > Heroic Strike for the simple fact that spamstringing can keep my Flurry going a lot more consistently than without, and the threat component difference between Hamstring and Heroic Strike is huge. The differences I'm talking about is something like 900 dps on Karathress to 1037 dps. I don't have a WWS to provide evidence, so you'll just have to take my word for it until I can get some screenshots or something similar.
Note: This is not to say that I don't use Heroic Strike, just that I prioritize Hamstring over it, and use Heroic Strike purely and solely for a rage dump, not for added dps (unless threat isn't an issue whatsoever)
What are your thoughts on spamstring vs Heroic Strike as things stand now?
What I'm seeing so far is that spamstring > Heroic Strike for the simple fact that spamstringing can keep my Flurry going a lot more consistently than without, and the threat component difference between Hamstring and Heroic Strike is huge. The differences I'm talking about is something like 900 dps on Karathress to 1037 dps. I don't have a WWS to provide evidence, so you'll just have to take my word for it until I can get some screenshots or something similar.
Note: This is not to say that I don't use Heroic Strike, just that I prioritize Hamstring over it, and use Heroic Strike purely and solely for a rage dump, not for added dps (unless threat isn't an issue whatsoever)
Hamstring is a lot worse than it was before the WF nerf. It's still good for keeping up Rampage, Flurry and somewhat with trinkets and other procs, but I doubt the threat per overall damage is actually worth it compared to Heroic. I still use it, but I prioritize Heroics when rage isn't free flowing.
Hamstring +181 (rank 4)
Heroic Strike +196 (rank 10)
I still use hamstring during certain periods on certain fights. But imo it isn't worth it
Heroic Strike +196 (rank 10)
I still use hamstring during certain periods on certain fights. But imo it isn't worth it
I find hamstring is only worth using in encounters with lots of incoming damage like RoS and Gorefiend, otherwise I get too low on rage.
I'd lie if I said that I'm always threat-capped, but (as 33/28) I'm high on threat consistently, normally when the boss goes down I'm between 100% and 110% of the tank's threat. One of the reasons I like 33/28 is that I can do quite some competitive damage (for example on our last Rage Winterchill kill I was #2 with 1500 DPS with only an unskilled windfury totem as group buff) without having any abilities causing extra threat.
However I'm also OK if Blizzard changes Fury to the only PvE-DPS tree with the new aggro reduce, but I think the Fury tree would need quite some buffs.
The talents I find lacking:
- Precision: It's the same 1%/point as for Rogues, but for Rogues hit is worth more than their main stat, agility, while for us it's only half as good as our main stat, strength.
- Weapon Mastery: With only 2% dodge reduce it's exactly the same as Precision minus two important things being that dodges generate rage(not 100% sure on this) and dodges allow the use of Overpower.
- Dual-Wield Specialization: It's half as good as the Rogue's equivalent for the reason that pre-TBC it increased rage generation significantly but since rage normalisation it doesn't do that this much anymore.
- Enrage and Flurry: A 25% Flurry for 10 talent points is just not good enough, should be either unlinked and some other utility talents added or Enrage should be given a PvE-aspect.
- Improved Whirlwind: Due to long global cooldowns it's wasted most of the time, I'd prefer if it increased crit chance for Whirlwind for example.
- that useless hp regeneration talent: no comment needed
However I'm also OK if Blizzard changes Fury to the only PvE-DPS tree with the new aggro reduce, but I think the Fury tree would need quite some buffs.
The talents I find lacking:
- Precision: It's the same 1%/point as for Rogues, but for Rogues hit is worth more than their main stat, agility, while for us it's only half as good as our main stat, strength.
- Weapon Mastery: With only 2% dodge reduce it's exactly the same as Precision minus two important things being that dodges generate rage(not 100% sure on this) and dodges allow the use of Overpower.
- Dual-Wield Specialization: It's half as good as the Rogue's equivalent for the reason that pre-TBC it increased rage generation significantly but since rage normalisation it doesn't do that this much anymore.
- Enrage and Flurry: A 25% Flurry for 10 talent points is just not good enough, should be either unlinked and some other utility talents added or Enrage should be given a PvE-aspect.
- Improved Whirlwind: Due to long global cooldowns it's wasted most of the time, I'd prefer if it increased crit chance for Whirlwind for example.
- that useless hp regeneration talent: no comment needed
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Originally Posted by Hidden
- Weapon Mastery: With only 2% dodge reduce it's exactly the same as Precision minus two important things being that dodges generate rage(not 100% sure on this) and dodges allow the use of Overpower.
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As far as fury goes, using overpower is a dps loss rather then a dps gain (you waste globalcooldowns and rage by stance dancing which cuts your dps).
From a fury PoV the weapon mastery talent is nice and I'd drop imp execute for it, for arms warriors I wouldn't know personally but I don't think an arms warrior would stance dance for overpower in pve (considering that you blow GCD's and rage).
Stance changes aren't on the GCD, but I certainly don't OP while dpsing. The only time I use it is if it happens to light up while in in battle stance for TCing.
Like I said, I don't use Hamstring for the damage that it itself does, but for the fact that it keeps Flurry going a lot more consistently. Again, I can't back it up with hard evidence but I saw about a 100 dps increase by switching from prioritizing Heroics, to prioritizing Hamstrings.
The damage I'm getting from spamming Hamstring is from the increased Flurry uptime and therefore increased rage and increased white damage, not from the ~65 damage it does.
The damage I'm getting from spamming Hamstring is from the increased Flurry uptime and therefore increased rage and increased white damage, not from the ~65 damage it does.
2.3 brings a bit more load to Fury, with Weapon Mastery being a pretty useful talent, Imp Whirlwind becoming a significantly higher priority, and Tactical Mastery adding some substantial benefit for three points. What gets the axe? Deep Wounds and Impale? Precision? Possibly even some points in Dual-Wield spec?
Okay, for those of you who have done the math -- or for those of you on whose computers the warrior DPS spreadsheet actually works, I have a question :
Currently, I'm using a Dragonstrike as my mainhand -- pushing into Hyjal (4/5) and BT (3/9), I'm looking at some of my weapon options, but they don't seem too amazing. I'm around 200-230ish hit rating, have good attack power, 30% crit, and 2.41% haste.
I'm wondering if anyone knows at which point it becomes mathematically better to be wielding a 100 DPS mainhand with stats as opposed to Dragonstrike. Post haste nerf and considering the horrible raw dps itemization on most drops out of BT/Hyjal, I've been wondering what my best solution is. Any suggestions?
I apologize in advance if this was prestated, but the first four pages of search didn't turn up anything like what I needed/wanted to find out, so I figured I'd ask.
Currently, I'm using a Dragonstrike as my mainhand -- pushing into Hyjal (4/5) and BT (3/9), I'm looking at some of my weapon options, but they don't seem too amazing. I'm around 200-230ish hit rating, have good attack power, 30% crit, and 2.41% haste.
I'm wondering if anyone knows at which point it becomes mathematically better to be wielding a 100 DPS mainhand with stats as opposed to Dragonstrike. Post haste nerf and considering the horrible raw dps itemization on most drops out of BT/Hyjal, I've been wondering what my best solution is. Any suggestions?
I apologize in advance if this was prestated, but the first four pages of search didn't turn up anything like what I needed/wanted to find out, so I figured I'd ask.
Edited onPatch 2.2.3
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Originally Posted by Nezralix
2.3 brings a bit more load to Fury, with Weapon Mastery being a pretty useful talent, Imp Whirlwind becoming a significantly higher priority, and Tactical Mastery adding some substantial benefit for three points. What gets the axe? Deep Wounds and Impale? Precision? Possibly even some points in Dual-Wield spec?
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Plugging my logic into the spreadsheet, at my level of gear weapon mastery 2/2 works out to be... 2 more dps than improved execute 2/2. Huh.
Last edited by Alhena : 10/26/07 at 9:25 PM.
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Originally Posted by WazAg
Okay, for those of you who have done the math -- or for those of you on whose computers the warrior DPS spreadsheet actually works, I have a question :
Currently, I'm using a Dragonstrike as my mainhand -- pushing into Hyjal (4/5) and BT (3/9), I'm looking at some of my weapon options, but they don't seem too amazing. I'm around 200-230ish hit rating, have good attack power, 30% crit, and 2.41% haste. I'm wondering if anyone knows at which point it becomes mathematically better to be wielding a 100 DPS mainhand with stats as opposed to Dragonstrike. Post haste nerf and considering the horrible raw dps itemization on most drops out of BT/Hyjal, I've been wondering what my best solution is. Any suggestions? I apologize in advance if this was prestated, but the first four pages of search didn't turn up anything like what I needed/wanted to find out, so I figured I'd ask. |
Second, you'll have to specify a bit what you are referring to by "horrible raw dps itemization". I'm really not sure what you mean.
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Originally Posted by Lambach
First, you really wanna drop a ton of hit rating, like now. Thats a ton of wasted itemization.
Second, you'll have to specify a bit what you are referring to by "horrible raw dps itemization". I'm really not sure what you mean. |
Simply put, I -like- the hit rating. I want to do superior dps, but I don't like the idea of having unreliable rage gen due to a lack of hit. I think I'm actually logged off in DPS gear (for once), so you can take a look there. Quite simply, though, the items haven't dropped to support better crit/ap/haste itemization.
As to "horrible raw dps itemization", what I mean is that a ton of things seem to have unnecessary stats -- Syphon of the Nathrezim has a great proc, but the only passive/damage causing stat it has is 50 atp. Same with Rising Tide -- it's got 44 atp, but also 22 hit (which I do not need) and 33 stamina (which I also don't need).
My guild doesn't plan on backflagging often, so Kael kills for Rod of the Sun King seem unlikely, and I'm still a stickler (perhaps mistakenly) for a slow mainhand weapon, so dual Swiftsteel Bludgeons are probably out of the question (not to mention, a baffling number of rogues are maces, so it's going to be difficult to get one, given that is hasn't dropped in a month or so of these instances).
The only options I see, DPS wise, that might provide much better dps are the Rod, a Blade of Infamy, or any of the faster (thus providing worse WW damage, and not many added flurry swings, given that I have near-flawlwss lag and a fast computer) weapons offered.
I'm wondering if it mightn't be better just to stack armour penetration, crit, and ap, and grab a two-hander instead of working around what's available to me.
Edit : Also, I've been in a 2100 rated arena team and am maintaining 1850ish in my current ones, so I may end up forgetting the whole thing and buying a pair of 103.x's when they come out.
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Originally Posted by Lambach
First, you really wanna drop a ton of hit rating, like now. Thats a ton of wasted itemization.
Second, you'll have to specify a bit what you are referring to by "horrible raw dps itemization". I'm really not sure what you mean. |
To WazAg:
I think the rise of the tide is more like a tanking weapon.
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Originally Posted by lazerpewpew
Do any of these two statements you mentioned have anything to do with his question? He just wanted some weapon choices in tier6 instances.
To WazAg: I think the rise of the tide is more like a tanking weapon. |
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Originally Posted by lazerpewpew
Do any of these two statements you mentioned have anything to do with his question? He just wanted some weapon choices in tier6 instances.
To WazAg: I think the rise of the tide is more like a tanking weapon. |
Rising Tide seems like it might be a nice devastate tanking weapon, or an enhancement shaman weapon, but it's 100 dps, and it has 2/3 dps statistics.
Regardless, I'm just trying to look for some decent PvE options before I blow 4k arena points on new weapons.
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Originally Posted by WazAg
Yeah, I was confused about the point but felt I should answer anyways.
Rising Tide seems like it might be a nice devastate tanking weapon, or an enhancement shaman weapon, but it's 100 dps, and it has 2/3 dps statistics. Regardless, I'm just trying to look for some decent PvE options before I blow 4k arena points on new weapons. |
<shamed>
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Originally Posted by WazAg
Okay, for those of you who have done the math -- or for those of you on whose computers the warrior DPS spreadsheet actually works, I have a question :
Currently, I'm using a Dragonstrike as my mainhand -- pushing into Hyjal (4/5) and BT (3/9), I'm looking at some of my weapon options, but they don't seem too amazing. I'm around 200-230ish hit rating, have good attack power, 30% crit, and 2.41% haste. I'm wondering if anyone knows at which point it becomes mathematically better to be wielding a 100 DPS mainhand with stats as opposed to Dragonstrike. Post haste nerf and considering the horrible raw dps itemization on most drops out of BT/Hyjal, I've been wondering what my best solution is. Any suggestions? I apologize in advance if this was prestated, but the first four pages of search didn't turn up anything like what I needed/wanted to find out, so I figured I'd ask. |
Edited onPatch 2.2.3
Warglaives
2x same speed season 3 one handers
Wicked Edge/Dragonstrike (MH)
Season 2 2.60 one hander (MH)
Blade of Infamy (OH)
Season 2 2.60 one hander (OH)
Talon of Azshara = Rising Tide (OH)
Swiftsteel Bludgeon OH (this seems to have a better ranking at lower gear levels...)
In that order. This is at medium+ BT lvl gear.
2x same speed season 3 one handers
Wicked Edge/Dragonstrike (MH)
Season 2 2.60 one hander (MH)
Blade of Infamy (OH)
Season 2 2.60 one hander (OH)
Talon of Azshara = Rising Tide (OH)
Swiftsteel Bludgeon OH (this seems to have a better ranking at lower gear levels...)
In that order. This is at medium+ BT lvl gear.
Last edited by Graul : 10/27/07 at 12:24 AM.
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Originally Posted by Graul
Warglaives
2x same speed season 3 one handers Wicked Edge/Dragonstrike (MH) Season 2 2.60 one hander (MH) Blade of Infamy (OH) Season 2 2.60 one hander (OH) Talon of Azshara = Rising Tide (OH) Swiftsteel Bludgeon OH (this seems to have a better ranking at lower gear levels...) In that order. This is at medium+ BT lvl gear. |
It has less dps than the T3 weapons and does the same DPS as Netherbane, which is also not mentioned. It's well-rounded stat-wise and a solid weapon to use but it belongs with S2 weapons and Netherbane.
If it works for you, use it. The spreadsheets are a good way to compare items but it's hardly gospel.
If it works for you, use it. The spreadsheets are a good way to compare items but it's hardly gospel.
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Originally Posted by Alhena
Plugging my logic into the spreadsheet, at my level of gear weapon mastery 2/2 works out to be... 2 more dps than improved execute 2/2. Huh.
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Uh.. It's quite common for dps warriors to pull aggro. With no aggro dumps at all like a Rogue has, and damage scaling so well with high end gear, AND tanks stacking so much avoidance leading to a possible lack of rage, its quite possible for warriors to pull aggro. Its not a myth and its definitely not bragging - there's nothing I like less than watching the fight from the ground after forgetting to watch Omen.
I've been blessed with some pretty good tanks for BC, I can sustain 1200 DPS, and generally only have to watch it at 20%.
It goes from a guild to guild basis how threat capped you are, can/be.
It goes from a guild to guild basis how threat capped you are, can/be.
They could nerf MS to not give the -50% healing debuff anymore, and have it added back for 10% per point via improved MS. That'd definitely split PvE Arms with PvP Arms. Then give Fury back DW/imp. Intercept, swap imp. Slam and Weapon Mastery, unlink Enrage/Flurry and put a PvP talent in deep Fury (a stun proc on Rampage?).
Make Fury the clear PvE spec, while boosting it's relative PvP viability a little. PvP arms would be 40+/x/y spec, losing imp. Intercept, but keeping imp. Slam. They then have the choice of going 21 Fury for more PvE damage, or putting a few points in Prot for some tanking viability (casual tanking/PvP spec). PVE Arms/Fury would have the same damage output as today, but no MS debuff. Or they could put ~21 points in Prot for a PvE hybrid raid spec (while keeping imp. Slam/Blood Frenzy/imp. Intercept).
If you think PvP arms is nerfed too much, you could change Dual Wield Spec to a 3 point talent (8/16/25) and Precision to a 5 point talent (1/2/3/4/5) and swap their locations around.
Good/bad ideas?
Make Fury the clear PvE spec, while boosting it's relative PvP viability a little. PvP arms would be 40+/x/y spec, losing imp. Intercept, but keeping imp. Slam. They then have the choice of going 21 Fury for more PvE damage, or putting a few points in Prot for some tanking viability (casual tanking/PvP spec). PVE Arms/Fury would have the same damage output as today, but no MS debuff. Or they could put ~21 points in Prot for a PvE hybrid raid spec (while keeping imp. Slam/Blood Frenzy/imp. Intercept).
If you think PvP arms is nerfed too much, you could change Dual Wield Spec to a 3 point talent (8/16/25) and Precision to a 5 point talent (1/2/3/4/5) and swap their locations around.
Good/bad ideas?
Wanted to bring something up that I've been noticing lately.
What are your thoughts on spamstring vs Heroic Strike as things stand now?
What I'm seeing so far is that spamstring > Heroic Strike for the simple fact that spamstringing can keep my Flurry going a lot more consistently than without, and the threat component difference between Hamstring and Heroic Strike is huge. The differences I'm talking about is something like 900 dps on Karathress to 1037 dps. I don't have a WWS to provide evidence, so you'll just have to take my word for it until I can get some screenshots or something similar.
Note: This is not to say that I don't use Heroic Strike, just that I prioritize Hamstring over it, and use Heroic Strike purely and solely for a rage dump, not for added dps (unless threat isn't an issue whatsoever)
What are your thoughts on spamstring vs Heroic Strike as things stand now?
What I'm seeing so far is that spamstring > Heroic Strike for the simple fact that spamstringing can keep my Flurry going a lot more consistently than without, and the threat component difference between Hamstring and Heroic Strike is huge. The differences I'm talking about is something like 900 dps on Karathress to 1037 dps. I don't have a WWS to provide evidence, so you'll just have to take my word for it until I can get some screenshots or something similar.
Note: This is not to say that I don't use Heroic Strike, just that I prioritize Hamstring over it, and use Heroic Strike purely and solely for a rage dump, not for added dps (unless threat isn't an issue whatsoever)
Hamstring is a lot worse than it was before the WF nerf. It's still good for keeping up Rampage, Flurry and somewhat with trinkets and other procs, but I doubt the threat per overall damage is actually worth it compared to Heroic. I still use it, but I prioritize Heroics when rage isn't free flowing.
Hamstring +181 (rank 4)
Heroic Strike +196 (rank 10)
I still use hamstring during certain periods on certain fights. But imo it isn't worth it
Heroic Strike +196 (rank 10)
I still use hamstring during certain periods on certain fights. But imo it isn't worth it
I find hamstring is only worth using in encounters with lots of incoming damage like RoS and Gorefiend, otherwise I get too low on rage.
I'd lie if I said that I'm always threat-capped, but (as 33/28) I'm high on threat consistently, normally when the boss goes down I'm between 100% and 110% of the tank's threat. One of the reasons I like 33/28 is that I can do quite some competitive damage (for example on our last Rage Winterchill kill I was #2 with 1500 DPS with only an unskilled windfury totem as group buff) without having any abilities causing extra threat.
However I'm also OK if Blizzard changes Fury to the only PvE-DPS tree with the new aggro reduce, but I think the Fury tree would need quite some buffs.
The talents I find lacking:
- Precision: It's the same 1%/point as for Rogues, but for Rogues hit is worth more than their main stat, agility, while for us it's only half as good as our main stat, strength.
- Weapon Mastery: With only 2% dodge reduce it's exactly the same as Precision minus two important things being that dodges generate rage(not 100% sure on this) and dodges allow the use of Overpower.
- Dual-Wield Specialization: It's half as good as the Rogue's equivalent for the reason that pre-TBC it increased rage generation significantly but since rage normalisation it doesn't do that this much anymore.
- Enrage and Flurry: A 25% Flurry for 10 talent points is just not good enough, should be either unlinked and some other utility talents added or Enrage should be given a PvE-aspect.
- Improved Whirlwind: Due to long global cooldowns it's wasted most of the time, I'd prefer if it increased crit chance for Whirlwind for example.
- that useless hp regeneration talent: no comment needed
However I'm also OK if Blizzard changes Fury to the only PvE-DPS tree with the new aggro reduce, but I think the Fury tree would need quite some buffs.
The talents I find lacking:
- Precision: It's the same 1%/point as for Rogues, but for Rogues hit is worth more than their main stat, agility, while for us it's only half as good as our main stat, strength.
- Weapon Mastery: With only 2% dodge reduce it's exactly the same as Precision minus two important things being that dodges generate rage(not 100% sure on this) and dodges allow the use of Overpower.
- Dual-Wield Specialization: It's half as good as the Rogue's equivalent for the reason that pre-TBC it increased rage generation significantly but since rage normalisation it doesn't do that this much anymore.
- Enrage and Flurry: A 25% Flurry for 10 talent points is just not good enough, should be either unlinked and some other utility talents added or Enrage should be given a PvE-aspect.
- Improved Whirlwind: Due to long global cooldowns it's wasted most of the time, I'd prefer if it increased crit chance for Whirlwind for example.
- that useless hp regeneration talent: no comment needed
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Originally Posted by Hidden
- Weapon Mastery: With only 2% dodge reduce it's exactly the same as Precision minus two important things being that dodges generate rage(not 100% sure on this) and dodges allow the use of Overpower.
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As far as fury goes, using overpower is a dps loss rather then a dps gain (you waste globalcooldowns and rage by stance dancing which cuts your dps).
From a fury PoV the weapon mastery talent is nice and I'd drop imp execute for it, for arms warriors I wouldn't know personally but I don't think an arms warrior would stance dance for overpower in pve (considering that you blow GCD's and rage).
Stance changes aren't on the GCD, but I certainly don't OP while dpsing. The only time I use it is if it happens to light up while in in battle stance for TCing.
Like I said, I don't use Hamstring for the damage that it itself does, but for the fact that it keeps Flurry going a lot more consistently. Again, I can't back it up with hard evidence but I saw about a 100 dps increase by switching from prioritizing Heroics, to prioritizing Hamstrings.
The damage I'm getting from spamming Hamstring is from the increased Flurry uptime and therefore increased rage and increased white damage, not from the ~65 damage it does.
The damage I'm getting from spamming Hamstring is from the increased Flurry uptime and therefore increased rage and increased white damage, not from the ~65 damage it does.
2.3 brings a bit more load to Fury, with Weapon Mastery being a pretty useful talent, Imp Whirlwind becoming a significantly higher priority, and Tactical Mastery adding some substantial benefit for three points. What gets the axe? Deep Wounds and Impale? Precision? Possibly even some points in Dual-Wield spec?
Okay, for those of you who have done the math -- or for those of you on whose computers the warrior DPS spreadsheet actually works, I have a question :
Currently, I'm using a Dragonstrike as my mainhand -- pushing into Hyjal (4/5) and BT (3/9), I'm looking at some of my weapon options, but they don't seem too amazing. I'm around 200-230ish hit rating, have good attack power, 30% crit, and 2.41% haste.
I'm wondering if anyone knows at which point it becomes mathematically better to be wielding a 100 DPS mainhand with stats as opposed to Dragonstrike. Post haste nerf and considering the horrible raw dps itemization on most drops out of BT/Hyjal, I've been wondering what my best solution is. Any suggestions?
I apologize in advance if this was prestated, but the first four pages of search didn't turn up anything like what I needed/wanted to find out, so I figured I'd ask.
Currently, I'm using a Dragonstrike as my mainhand -- pushing into Hyjal (4/5) and BT (3/9), I'm looking at some of my weapon options, but they don't seem too amazing. I'm around 200-230ish hit rating, have good attack power, 30% crit, and 2.41% haste.
I'm wondering if anyone knows at which point it becomes mathematically better to be wielding a 100 DPS mainhand with stats as opposed to Dragonstrike. Post haste nerf and considering the horrible raw dps itemization on most drops out of BT/Hyjal, I've been wondering what my best solution is. Any suggestions?
I apologize in advance if this was prestated, but the first four pages of search didn't turn up anything like what I needed/wanted to find out, so I figured I'd ask.
Edited onPatch 2.2.3
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Originally Posted by Nezralix
2.3 brings a bit more load to Fury, with Weapon Mastery being a pretty useful talent, Imp Whirlwind becoming a significantly higher priority, and Tactical Mastery adding some substantial benefit for three points. What gets the axe? Deep Wounds and Impale? Precision? Possibly even some points in Dual-Wield spec?
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Plugging my logic into the spreadsheet, at my level of gear weapon mastery 2/2 works out to be... 2 more dps than improved execute 2/2. Huh.
Last edited by Alhena : 10/26/07 at 9:25 PM.
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Originally Posted by WazAg
Okay, for those of you who have done the math -- or for those of you on whose computers the warrior DPS spreadsheet actually works, I have a question :
Currently, I'm using a Dragonstrike as my mainhand -- pushing into Hyjal (4/5) and BT (3/9), I'm looking at some of my weapon options, but they don't seem too amazing. I'm around 200-230ish hit rating, have good attack power, 30% crit, and 2.41% haste. I'm wondering if anyone knows at which point it becomes mathematically better to be wielding a 100 DPS mainhand with stats as opposed to Dragonstrike. Post haste nerf and considering the horrible raw dps itemization on most drops out of BT/Hyjal, I've been wondering what my best solution is. Any suggestions? I apologize in advance if this was prestated, but the first four pages of search didn't turn up anything like what I needed/wanted to find out, so I figured I'd ask. |
Second, you'll have to specify a bit what you are referring to by "horrible raw dps itemization". I'm really not sure what you mean.
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Originally Posted by Lambach
First, you really wanna drop a ton of hit rating, like now. Thats a ton of wasted itemization.
Second, you'll have to specify a bit what you are referring to by "horrible raw dps itemization". I'm really not sure what you mean. |
Simply put, I -like- the hit rating. I want to do superior dps, but I don't like the idea of having unreliable rage gen due to a lack of hit. I think I'm actually logged off in DPS gear (for once), so you can take a look there. Quite simply, though, the items haven't dropped to support better crit/ap/haste itemization.
As to "horrible raw dps itemization", what I mean is that a ton of things seem to have unnecessary stats -- Syphon of the Nathrezim has a great proc, but the only passive/damage causing stat it has is 50 atp. Same with Rising Tide -- it's got 44 atp, but also 22 hit (which I do not need) and 33 stamina (which I also don't need).
My guild doesn't plan on backflagging often, so Kael kills for Rod of the Sun King seem unlikely, and I'm still a stickler (perhaps mistakenly) for a slow mainhand weapon, so dual Swiftsteel Bludgeons are probably out of the question (not to mention, a baffling number of rogues are maces, so it's going to be difficult to get one, given that is hasn't dropped in a month or so of these instances).
The only options I see, DPS wise, that might provide much better dps are the Rod, a Blade of Infamy, or any of the faster (thus providing worse WW damage, and not many added flurry swings, given that I have near-flawlwss lag and a fast computer) weapons offered.
I'm wondering if it mightn't be better just to stack armour penetration, crit, and ap, and grab a two-hander instead of working around what's available to me.
Edit : Also, I've been in a 2100 rated arena team and am maintaining 1850ish in my current ones, so I may end up forgetting the whole thing and buying a pair of 103.x's when they come out.
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Originally Posted by Lambach
First, you really wanna drop a ton of hit rating, like now. Thats a ton of wasted itemization.
Second, you'll have to specify a bit what you are referring to by "horrible raw dps itemization". I'm really not sure what you mean. |
To WazAg:
I think the rise of the tide is more like a tanking weapon.
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Originally Posted by lazerpewpew
Do any of these two statements you mentioned have anything to do with his question? He just wanted some weapon choices in tier6 instances.
To WazAg: I think the rise of the tide is more like a tanking weapon. |
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Originally Posted by lazerpewpew
Do any of these two statements you mentioned have anything to do with his question? He just wanted some weapon choices in tier6 instances.
To WazAg: I think the rise of the tide is more like a tanking weapon. |
Rising Tide seems like it might be a nice devastate tanking weapon, or an enhancement shaman weapon, but it's 100 dps, and it has 2/3 dps statistics.
Regardless, I'm just trying to look for some decent PvE options before I blow 4k arena points on new weapons.
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Originally Posted by WazAg
Yeah, I was confused about the point but felt I should answer anyways.
Rising Tide seems like it might be a nice devastate tanking weapon, or an enhancement shaman weapon, but it's 100 dps, and it has 2/3 dps statistics. Regardless, I'm just trying to look for some decent PvE options before I blow 4k arena points on new weapons. |
<shamed>
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Originally Posted by WazAg
Okay, for those of you who have done the math -- or for those of you on whose computers the warrior DPS spreadsheet actually works, I have a question :
Currently, I'm using a Dragonstrike as my mainhand -- pushing into Hyjal (4/5) and BT (3/9), I'm looking at some of my weapon options, but they don't seem too amazing. I'm around 200-230ish hit rating, have good attack power, 30% crit, and 2.41% haste. I'm wondering if anyone knows at which point it becomes mathematically better to be wielding a 100 DPS mainhand with stats as opposed to Dragonstrike. Post haste nerf and considering the horrible raw dps itemization on most drops out of BT/Hyjal, I've been wondering what my best solution is. Any suggestions? I apologize in advance if this was prestated, but the first four pages of search didn't turn up anything like what I needed/wanted to find out, so I figured I'd ask. |
Edited onPatch 2.2.3
Warglaives
2x same speed season 3 one handers
Wicked Edge/Dragonstrike (MH)
Season 2 2.60 one hander (MH)
Blade of Infamy (OH)
Season 2 2.60 one hander (OH)
Talon of Azshara = Rising Tide (OH)
Swiftsteel Bludgeon OH (this seems to have a better ranking at lower gear levels...)
In that order. This is at medium+ BT lvl gear.
2x same speed season 3 one handers
Wicked Edge/Dragonstrike (MH)
Season 2 2.60 one hander (MH)
Blade of Infamy (OH)
Season 2 2.60 one hander (OH)
Talon of Azshara = Rising Tide (OH)
Swiftsteel Bludgeon OH (this seems to have a better ranking at lower gear levels...)
In that order. This is at medium+ BT lvl gear.
Last edited by Graul : 10/27/07 at 12:24 AM.
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Originally Posted by Graul
Warglaives
2x same speed season 3 one handers Wicked Edge/Dragonstrike (MH) Season 2 2.60 one hander (MH) Blade of Infamy (OH) Season 2 2.60 one hander (OH) Talon of Azshara = Rising Tide (OH) Swiftsteel Bludgeon OH (this seems to have a better ranking at lower gear levels...) In that order. This is at medium+ BT lvl gear. |
It has less dps than the T3 weapons and does the same DPS as Netherbane, which is also not mentioned. It's well-rounded stat-wise and a solid weapon to use but it belongs with S2 weapons and Netherbane.
If it works for you, use it. The spreadsheets are a good way to compare items but it's hardly gospel.
If it works for you, use it. The spreadsheets are a good way to compare items but it's hardly gospel.
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Originally Posted by Alhena
Plugging my logic into the spreadsheet, at my level of gear weapon mastery 2/2 works out to be... 2 more dps than improved execute 2/2. Huh.
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Originally Posted by Graul
Warglaives
2x same speed season 3 one handers Wicked Edge/Dragonstrike (MH) Season 2 2.60 one hander (MH) Blade of Infamy (OH) Season 2 2.60 one hander (OH) Talon of Azshara = Rising Tide (OH) Swiftsteel Bludgeon OH (this seems to have a better ranking at lower gear levels...) In that order. This is at medium+ BT lvl gear. |
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Originally Posted by hawkk
Are [Rod of the Sun King] and [Syphon of the Nathrezim] excluded because they're not competitive, or is this just an oversight?
|
I have a couple of quick questions to ask if i can.
Firstly, my guild is just beginning t5 content.
i have about 1800ap in zerker stance
31% crit
and 177 hit. What is the lvl of hit rating that dps warrs are shootgin for these days. I have only just gone dps again since pre bc and not sure of the new figures. I have read somewhere that perhaps hit is not as important as it once was. If someone could elaborate that would be great.
secondly, I am a BS and using Bulwark of ancient kings. I understand this is the best BP in game. However I dont realy have acces to fantastic weapons right now (decap/spiteblade). Would I get more dps by speccing into axe/hammers and getting wicked edge/dragonstrike? or better to keep the breast plate?
I apologise if this has been mentioned before but I am new to this thread and at time of posting have 5 mins before work
Thanks in advance
Firstly, my guild is just beginning t5 content.
i have about 1800ap in zerker stance
31% crit
and 177 hit. What is the lvl of hit rating that dps warrs are shootgin for these days. I have only just gone dps again since pre bc and not sure of the new figures. I have read somewhere that perhaps hit is not as important as it once was. If someone could elaborate that would be great.
secondly, I am a BS and using Bulwark of ancient kings. I understand this is the best BP in game. However I dont realy have acces to fantastic weapons right now (decap/spiteblade). Would I get more dps by speccing into axe/hammers and getting wicked edge/dragonstrike? or better to keep the breast plate?
I apologise if this has been mentioned before but I am new to this thread and at time of posting have 5 mins before work
Thanks in advance
|
Originally Posted by Gruntle
If you're using the 9.1.4 version of the spreadsheet you should know that weapon mastery is still modeled as expertise in that version. Maybe you've changed it yourself (just deselect Weapon mastery talent and set Base dodge to 3.6%), just thought I'd point it out.
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Your hit isn't bad. Your attack power is low though. 180 is 12% hit rating before Precision so you should be ok.
If you don't want to swop specialization. you can try for Netherbane, Talon, or arena weapons.
If you don't want to swop specialization. you can try for Netherbane, Talon, or arena weapons.
If you think you can manage 1850 personal arena rating in 2.3, just go for the s3 arena weapons, since they pretty much outperform everything except warglaives
I understand that my hit is workable. but is there some level where i should really stop trying to up it and work on other stats? like is there a ideal or accepted level of hit.
..
The attack power is 1800 with no bs, so i sit around 2150 roughly with bs.
Is this too low?
I didnt mention my spec, i am 17/44. I do not pvp. ever. so right now i guess the only thing i can really get access to is alar weapons/tidewalker etc. or the blacksmithing weapon. but as i said, i would have to scarifice the bs breastplate so i am not sure if its worth it
..
The attack power is 1800 with no bs, so i sit around 2150 roughly with bs.
Is this too low?
I didnt mention my spec, i am 17/44. I do not pvp. ever. so right now i guess the only thing i can really get access to is alar weapons/tidewalker etc. or the blacksmithing weapon. but as i said, i would have to scarifice the bs breastplate so i am not sure if its worth it
1800 is a little low but not too far off. I'm at 2019ish in zerker stance right now without battle shout as a comparison though I'd like a little more hit (Akama gloves, for instance).
Can somebody with access to the PTR verify that the [Vengeful Gladiator's Cleaver] does not require a personal arena rating for 1850?
What I'm seeing on both mmo-champion and worldofraids is that in general the main hand or one hand weapons do not require rating, while the offhand weapons do.
What I'm seeing on both mmo-champion and worldofraids is that in general the main hand or one hand weapons do not require rating, while the offhand weapons do.
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Originally Posted by Korlong
Can somebody with access to the PTR verify that the [Vengeful Gladiator's Cleaver] does not require a personal arena rating for 1850?
What I'm seeing on both mmo-champion and worldofraids is that in general the main hand or one hand weapons do not require rating, while the offhand weapons do. |
Does anyone have data on the proc-rate (rpm) of Rod of the Sunking?
It's between 5 and 10%
Remember seeing a full SSC clear a while back and it gave me 1600 rage for the full night.
Remember seeing a full SSC clear a while back and it gave me 1600 rage for the full night.
Edited onPatch 2.2.3
How good (or bad) is Stormherald in PvE, assuming 33/28 with 5/5 in mace spec. Is it comparable to Gorehowl with 5/5 in poleaxe spec?
Also, how much worse is it compare to the crafted sword and axe?
Also, how much worse is it compare to the crafted sword and axe?
Last edited by nfw : 10/28/07 at 1:14 PM.
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Originally Posted by Chadw
Currently they don't but it's a bug and will be fixed before 2.3 goes live.
|
Here's a blue sticky post from the PTR forum:
WoW Forums -> 2.3 PTR Reported Issues UPDATE
7th line down says "--Arena rating requirements are not consistent for arena gear."
WoW Forums -> 2.3 PTR Reported Issues UPDATE
7th line down says "--Arena rating requirements are not consistent for arena gear."
|
Originally Posted by nfw
How good (or bad) is Stormherald in PvE, assuming 33/28 with 5/5 in mace spec. Is it comparable to Gorehowl with 5/5 in poleaxe spec?
Also, how much worse is it compare to the crafted sword and axe? |
|
Originally Posted by Steveharris
Here's a blue sticky post from the PTR forum:
WoW Forums -> 2.3 PTR Reported Issues UPDATE 7th line down says "--Arena rating requirements are not consistent for arena gear." |
I think I can wangle the rating even if it does have the requirement, but I would really like more information to be available on how personal ratings are going to work in the transition from 2.2 to 2.3. For example, if I make a 5v5 team just to rack up some free points and have fun with guild mates, would a bad rating here adversely affect my personal rating going into 2.3? Kalgan's comments about planning on getting a weapon in week one would seem to say so.
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Originally Posted by Kiranat
Mace Spec is utterly useless in PVE. From the top end and better stats alone I imagine you'll see better overall performance than Gorehowl, but from anecdotal experience I went up ~100 DPS by switching from Stormherald to Cataclysm's Edge simply because of the added rage from Sword Spec which is almost a necessity after the WF totem nerf.
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Stormherald is also a 3.8 speed weapon, one of the few in the game. Slow weapons are so great for 2H warriors because Slam isn't a normalized attack so there is quite a bit to be gained from it. I don't have any sort of evidence other than anecdotal, but I doubt Gorehowl would offer much better performance if any at all in comparison to Stormherald.
I'd imagine your gains are more from jumping from an ilvl136 weapon to and ilvl151 weapon, a whole bunch more attack power, doubling your armor penetration, and the actual damage caused by the 5% sword spec proc at the expense of a little bit of crit and Slams that don't hit quite as hard.
That said, I'll be looking towards snatching Cataclysm's Edge or the S3 sword for my next weapon upgrade, whatever comes upon me first.
Edited onPatch 2.2.3
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Originally Posted by mikebro
I think this is pretty exaggerated. Mace spec certainly is the weakest of 2H specializations but it's not entirely useless, mace stun procs still grant 6 rage even if the target is immune to stuns. I've heard numbers anywhere between 12-14% for the proc rate of mace spec with a 3.8 speed weapon, so with that in consideration the rage gains between Sword spec and Mace spec aren't extremely significant.
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The difference in rage generation is pretty huge - I went from having to skip a majority of Slamming in a rotation to having enough excess rage to toss in a fair amount of Heroic Strikes while keeping the rotation solid.
Yes, CE is a far higher ilevel weapon than SH, but downplaying sword spec is a mistake IMO.
Last edited by Kiranat : 10/28/07 at 5:26 PM.
There is nothing better than [Cataclysm's Edge] for 2h PvE. Good stats, good DPS and an amazing weapon spec. Paired with Blood Frenzy it's as good as Fury.
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Originally Posted by dr_AllCOM3
There is nothing better than [Cataclysm's Edge] for 2h PvE. Good stats, good DPS and an amazing weapon spec. Paired with Blood Frenzy it's as good as Fury.
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Ok, for anyone who is like me and is suddenly trying to arena for S3 weapons for PvE dps, I found this thread which goes over personal rating mechanics in detail:
WoW Forums -> [Feedback] Personal Rating System
In a nutshell your personal rating is compared to the opposing team's rating in a second calculation identical to the current rating calculations.
The key point however:
This of course means that you can focus on doing well in one bracket, and have two "scrub" teams that you keep just for points.
WoW Forums -> [Feedback] Personal Rating System
In a nutshell your personal rating is compared to the opposing team's rating in a second calculation identical to the current rating calculations.
The key point however:
| All personal ratings are independent, and are only generated within the team you play on. |
|
Originally Posted by Randor
For a few more weeks.
|
Using my guild as an example - On our all-out-DPS fights like Gorefiend our fury warrior is doing about 1550-1600 DPS and I'm doing ~1500. Because of our raid makeup we're gaining an additional 500 DPS from Blood Frenzy alone, so that 10% threat reduction will have to magically make up 400 DPS for Fury to be back on top of BF :P
I meant that S3 weapons and the big 2hander from ZA will be right up there.
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Originally Posted by Randor
I meant that S3 weapons and the big 2hander from ZA will be right up there.
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Originally Posted by Graul
Warglaives
2x same speed season 3 one handers Wicked Edge/Dragonstrike (MH) Season 2 2.60 one hander (MH) Blade of Infamy (OH) Season 2 2.60 one hander (OH) Talon of Azshara = Rising Tide (OH) Swiftsteel Bludgeon OH (this seems to have a better ranking at lower gear levels...) In that order. This is at medium+ BT lvl gear. |
|
Originally Posted by hawkk
Are [Rod of the Sun King] and [Syphon of the Nathrezim] excluded because they're not competitive, or is this just an oversight?
|
I have a couple of quick questions to ask if i can.
Firstly, my guild is just beginning t5 content.
i have about 1800ap in zerker stance
31% crit
and 177 hit. What is the lvl of hit rating that dps warrs are shootgin for these days. I have only just gone dps again since pre bc and not sure of the new figures. I have read somewhere that perhaps hit is not as important as it once was. If someone could elaborate that would be great.
secondly, I am a BS and using Bulwark of ancient kings. I understand this is the best BP in game. However I dont realy have acces to fantastic weapons right now (decap/spiteblade). Would I get more dps by speccing into axe/hammers and getting wicked edge/dragonstrike? or better to keep the breast plate?
I apologise if this has been mentioned before but I am new to this thread and at time of posting have 5 mins before work
Thanks in advance
Firstly, my guild is just beginning t5 content.
i have about 1800ap in zerker stance
31% crit
and 177 hit. What is the lvl of hit rating that dps warrs are shootgin for these days. I have only just gone dps again since pre bc and not sure of the new figures. I have read somewhere that perhaps hit is not as important as it once was. If someone could elaborate that would be great.
secondly, I am a BS and using Bulwark of ancient kings. I understand this is the best BP in game. However I dont realy have acces to fantastic weapons right now (decap/spiteblade). Would I get more dps by speccing into axe/hammers and getting wicked edge/dragonstrike? or better to keep the breast plate?
I apologise if this has been mentioned before but I am new to this thread and at time of posting have 5 mins before work
Thanks in advance
|
Originally Posted by Gruntle
If you're using the 9.1.4 version of the spreadsheet you should know that weapon mastery is still modeled as expertise in that version. Maybe you've changed it yourself (just deselect Weapon mastery talent and set Base dodge to 3.6%), just thought I'd point it out.
|
Your hit isn't bad. Your attack power is low though. 180 is 12% hit rating before Precision so you should be ok.
If you don't want to swop specialization. you can try for Netherbane, Talon, or arena weapons.
If you don't want to swop specialization. you can try for Netherbane, Talon, or arena weapons.
If you think you can manage 1850 personal arena rating in 2.3, just go for the s3 arena weapons, since they pretty much outperform everything except warglaives
I understand that my hit is workable. but is there some level where i should really stop trying to up it and work on other stats? like is there a ideal or accepted level of hit.
..
The attack power is 1800 with no bs, so i sit around 2150 roughly with bs.
Is this too low?
I didnt mention my spec, i am 17/44. I do not pvp. ever. so right now i guess the only thing i can really get access to is alar weapons/tidewalker etc. or the blacksmithing weapon. but as i said, i would have to scarifice the bs breastplate so i am not sure if its worth it
..
The attack power is 1800 with no bs, so i sit around 2150 roughly with bs.
Is this too low?
I didnt mention my spec, i am 17/44. I do not pvp. ever. so right now i guess the only thing i can really get access to is alar weapons/tidewalker etc. or the blacksmithing weapon. but as i said, i would have to scarifice the bs breastplate so i am not sure if its worth it
1800 is a little low but not too far off. I'm at 2019ish in zerker stance right now without battle shout as a comparison though I'd like a little more hit (Akama gloves, for instance).
Can somebody with access to the PTR verify that the [Vengeful Gladiator's Cleaver] does not require a personal arena rating for 1850?
What I'm seeing on both mmo-champion and worldofraids is that in general the main hand or one hand weapons do not require rating, while the offhand weapons do.
What I'm seeing on both mmo-champion and worldofraids is that in general the main hand or one hand weapons do not require rating, while the offhand weapons do.
|
Originally Posted by Korlong
Can somebody with access to the PTR verify that the [Vengeful Gladiator's Cleaver] does not require a personal arena rating for 1850?
What I'm seeing on both mmo-champion and worldofraids is that in general the main hand or one hand weapons do not require rating, while the offhand weapons do. |
Does anyone have data on the proc-rate (rpm) of Rod of the Sunking?
It's between 5 and 10%
Remember seeing a full SSC clear a while back and it gave me 1600 rage for the full night.
Remember seeing a full SSC clear a while back and it gave me 1600 rage for the full night.
Edited onPatch 2.2.3
How good (or bad) is Stormherald in PvE, assuming 33/28 with 5/5 in mace spec. Is it comparable to Gorehowl with 5/5 in poleaxe spec?
Also, how much worse is it compare to the crafted sword and axe?
Also, how much worse is it compare to the crafted sword and axe?
Last edited by nfw : 10/28/07 at 1:14 PM.
|
Originally Posted by Chadw
Currently they don't but it's a bug and will be fixed before 2.3 goes live.
|
Here's a blue sticky post from the PTR forum:
WoW Forums -> 2.3 PTR Reported Issues UPDATE
7th line down says "--Arena rating requirements are not consistent for arena gear."
WoW Forums -> 2.3 PTR Reported Issues UPDATE
7th line down says "--Arena rating requirements are not consistent for arena gear."
|
Originally Posted by nfw
How good (or bad) is Stormherald in PvE, assuming 33/28 with 5/5 in mace spec. Is it comparable to Gorehowl with 5/5 in poleaxe spec?
Also, how much worse is it compare to the crafted sword and axe? |
|
Originally Posted by Steveharris
Here's a blue sticky post from the PTR forum:
WoW Forums -> 2.3 PTR Reported Issues UPDATE 7th line down says "--Arena rating requirements are not consistent for arena gear." |
I think I can wangle the rating even if it does have the requirement, but I would really like more information to be available on how personal ratings are going to work in the transition from 2.2 to 2.3. For example, if I make a 5v5 team just to rack up some free points and have fun with guild mates, would a bad rating here adversely affect my personal rating going into 2.3? Kalgan's comments about planning on getting a weapon in week one would seem to say so.
|
Originally Posted by Kiranat
Mace Spec is utterly useless in PVE. From the top end and better stats alone I imagine you'll see better overall performance than Gorehowl, but from anecdotal experience I went up ~100 DPS by switching from Stormherald to Cataclysm's Edge simply because of the added rage from Sword Spec which is almost a necessity after the WF totem nerf.
|
Stormherald is also a 3.8 speed weapon, one of the few in the game. Slow weapons are so great for 2H warriors because Slam isn't a normalized attack so there is quite a bit to be gained from it. I don't have any sort of evidence other than anecdotal, but I doubt Gorehowl would offer much better performance if any at all in comparison to Stormherald.
I'd imagine your gains are more from jumping from an ilvl136 weapon to and ilvl151 weapon, a whole bunch more attack power, doubling your armor penetration, and the actual damage caused by the 5% sword spec proc at the expense of a little bit of crit and Slams that don't hit quite as hard.
That said, I'll be looking towards snatching Cataclysm's Edge or the S3 sword for my next weapon upgrade, whatever comes upon me first.
Edited onPatch 2.2.3
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Originally Posted by mikebro
I think this is pretty exaggerated. Mace spec certainly is the weakest of 2H specializations but it's not entirely useless, mace stun procs still grant 6 rage even if the target is immune to stuns. I've heard numbers anywhere between 12-14% for the proc rate of mace spec with a 3.8 speed weapon, so with that in consideration the rage gains between Sword spec and Mace spec aren't extremely significant.
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The difference in rage generation is pretty huge - I went from having to skip a majority of Slamming in a rotation to having enough excess rage to toss in a fair amount of Heroic Strikes while keeping the rotation solid.
Yes, CE is a far higher ilevel weapon than SH, but downplaying sword spec is a mistake IMO.
Last edited by Kiranat : 10/28/07 at 5:26 PM.
There is nothing better than [Cataclysm's Edge] for 2h PvE. Good stats, good DPS and an amazing weapon spec. Paired with Blood Frenzy it's as good as Fury.
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Originally Posted by dr_AllCOM3
There is nothing better than [Cataclysm's Edge] for 2h PvE. Good stats, good DPS and an amazing weapon spec. Paired with Blood Frenzy it's as good as Fury.
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Ok, for anyone who is like me and is suddenly trying to arena for S3 weapons for PvE dps, I found this thread which goes over personal rating mechanics in detail:
WoW Forums -> [Feedback] Personal Rating System
In a nutshell your personal rating is compared to the opposing team's rating in a second calculation identical to the current rating calculations.
The key point however:
This of course means that you can focus on doing well in one bracket, and have two "scrub" teams that you keep just for points.
WoW Forums -> [Feedback] Personal Rating System
In a nutshell your personal rating is compared to the opposing team's rating in a second calculation identical to the current rating calculations.
The key point however:
| All personal ratings are independent, and are only generated within the team you play on. |
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Originally Posted by Randor
For a few more weeks.
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Using my guild as an example - On our all-out-DPS fights like Gorefiend our fury warrior is doing about 1550-1600 DPS and I'm doing ~1500. Because of our raid makeup we're gaining an additional 500 DPS from Blood Frenzy alone, so that 10% threat reduction will have to magically make up 400 DPS for Fury to be back on top of BF :P
I meant that S3 weapons and the big 2hander from ZA will be right up there.
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Originally Posted by Randor
I meant that S3 weapons and the big 2hander from ZA will be right up there.
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Originally Posted by Kaos
Please stop perpetuating this misleading train of thought, slam is not in fact normalized, however due to the nature of the rotation a faster weapon will slam more often, thus speed is pretty inconsequential (barring extremely low speeds of course).
|
|
Originally Posted by Kaos
Please stop perpetuating this misleading train of thought, slam is not in fact normalized, however due to the nature of the rotation a faster weapon will slam more often, thus speed is pretty inconsequential (barring extremely low speeds of course).
|
|
Originally Posted by Kaos
Please stop perpetuating this misleading train of thought, slam is not in fact normalized, however due to the nature of the rotation a faster weapon will slam more often, thus speed is pretty inconsequential (barring extremely low speeds of course).
|
Assuming 0.2 seconds lag
A 3.0 speed weapon will have its lagged speed be 3.2 seconds
A 4.0 speed weapon will have its lagged speed be 4.2 seconds
3/3.2 = 0.9375
4/4.2 = 0.9524
0.9524/0.9375 = 1.0159
Thus with 0.2 seconds of lag a 4.0 speed weapon will produce 1.6% more damage from slam+autoattack than a 3.0 speed weapon.
Now granted the difference between a 3.6 speed weapon and a 3.8 speed weapon is pretty marginal but it is there.
I was recently given my guild's first Cataclysm's Edge for the purpose of using a pve MS build for blood frenzy in raids. When I received it the first question that came up was what enchant to put on it. At first I wanted to put mongoose on it but after browsing the armory for profiles of MS warrior in top raiding guilds I found that there was a pretty even distribution of savagery and mongoose on their two-handed weapons.
Since that search didn't yield any significant conclusion I decided to search the forums here but once again nothing definitive came up. I'm sure the question has been asked and answered before but is there a general consensus for either mongoose or savagery on two-handed weapons for pve dps?
Since that search didn't yield any significant conclusion I decided to search the forums here but once again nothing definitive came up. I'm sure the question has been asked and answered before but is there a general consensus for either mongoose or savagery on two-handed weapons for pve dps?
I have had both on the BS axes and prefer Savagery. the constant AP > the proc, in my view but once 2.3 is out, you'll get Executioner anyway
I've got savagery on bloodmoon at the moment, but the warrior dps spreadsheet reports mongoose does more dps. I'm not going to re-enchant thought since I plan on getting Exe.
Sorry for my ignorance, when this was mentioned anywhere before...
what would be better for 2.3: mongoose or 20 str on offhand? Spreadsheet is always displaying more dps for 20 str on offhand, but I've read mongoose would be better for higher equipment. Also, Mongoose will be replaced with Executioner on mainhand. So I'm a little bit confused... what is actually better now?
what would be better for 2.3: mongoose or 20 str on offhand? Spreadsheet is always displaying more dps for 20 str on offhand, but I've read mongoose would be better for higher equipment. Also, Mongoose will be replaced with Executioner on mainhand. So I'm a little bit confused... what is actually better now?
|
Originally Posted by Kaan
Sorry for my ignorance, when this was mentioned anywhere before...
what would be better for 2.3: mongoose or 20 str on offhand? Spreadsheet is always displaying more dps for 20 str on offhand, but I've read mongoose would be better for higher equipment. Also, Mongoose will be replaced with Executioner on mainhand. So I'm a little bit confused... what is actually better now? |
For an OH, it will depend on exec's proc rate, if it stacks. It also depends on your gear level as it does now.
Spreadsheet is mentioning that executioner does not stack (see comment, when selecting executioner on offhand). So actually my question was, if potency beats mongoose on offhand, considering 2.3.
Question, sorry If I missed the answer but I didnt see it browsing through.... I see lots of people saying BT/Hyjal weapons will be buffed because of how good S3 weapons are. Is this a guess, based on the SSC/TK weapons buff and the fact that logicly they should be buffed, or is this a fact written in cement?
As for DPS on Teron Gorefiend I have done 1650 dps with 33/28 and 1880 as DW fury. I am able to do this because our Shaman twists Tranq air and WF for me. Tranq is a huge help, I suggest finding some way to get your shaman to do it. I chug haste pots and we use CoR, etc.
As for DPS on Teron Gorefiend I have done 1650 dps with 33/28 and 1880 as DW fury. I am able to do this because our Shaman twists Tranq air and WF for me. Tranq is a huge help, I suggest finding some way to get your shaman to do it. I chug haste pots and we use CoR, etc.
To my knowledge Blizzard has not officially stated that they will be buffing T6 weapons. It would be logical though.
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Originally Posted by LodeRunner
He turns to cast things on people and you could have been using specials on those brief moments.
edit- bleh, beaten |
Edited onPatch 2.2.3
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Originally Posted by Quixotic
Changed my helm gem from green to yellow, and I use 2pc T6 (shoulders/pants) gemmed properly in PvE. I just logged out with the itemrack set I had before I got the 2pc.
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What about other fights in BT?How well does a Fury Warrior stand in the DPS chart in there?
Last edited by Danath : 10/30/07 at 6:46 AM.
Those are usually reports with bugged splits that read something like 8 million damage done in 4 minutes. Considering it'd currently take the utmost out of tanks to push out 1.2k TPS in that encounter I don't really see how a fury warrior can get away with anything near that. Theoritically in a super ideal sort of situation you could get close I suppose - enrage procs off constructs. 5 heroisms, a 'very' stacked totem twisting group etc. I don't think it's viable threat wise however, dying and stoning back up is still a DPS loss from time/buffs.
Yes when mobs turn to cast something with RSTS they stop meleeing (usually, I have seen mobs cast/channel and melee/do other things at the same time - a good example would be Illidari Flames + Warstomp combos on the Supremus trash). Though I haven't really checked logs to see if the melee swing is reset. Archimonde and Teron are good example of such busy bees, they often stops meleeing the tank for short periods (out of experience alone though, no numerical proof).
Yes when mobs turn to cast something with RSTS they stop meleeing (usually, I have seen mobs cast/channel and melee/do other things at the same time - a good example would be Illidari Flames + Warstomp combos on the Supremus trash). Though I haven't really checked logs to see if the melee swing is reset. Archimonde and Teron are good example of such busy bees, they often stops meleeing the tank for short periods (out of experience alone though, no numerical proof).
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Originally Posted by Kaan
Spreadsheet is mentioning that executioner does not stack (see comment, when selecting executioner on offhand). So actually my question was, if potency beats mongoose on offhand, considering 2.3.
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Originally Posted by Korlong
Using a fast offhand does not increase Heroic Strike use. There is no "theorycrafting" involved in this decision, there are no theoretical advantages to using a fast offhand over a slow offhand provided you manage your rage properly, whereas a slow offhand yields higher whirlwind damage.
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However, I doubt this effect can make up for the extra WW damage with a slow offhand weapon of the same dps (definitely not for daggers anyway).
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Originally Posted by Gruntle
You're right that a fast offhand doesn't really increase HS usage (even though I've read some unsubstantiated claims that UW still is slightly better with fast weapons). The main reason for using fast offhands still stand though. You build up rage faster between executes with a fast OH weapon (actually also with a fast MH), giving higher execute damage.
However, I doubt this effect can make up for the extra WW damage with a slow offhand weapon of the same dps (definitely not for daggers anyway). |
It is also important to realize that Bloodthirst is still more DPR than execute, so you should be doing a BT, E, E rotation or something similar based on rage availability sub-20% when you don't have reck up, so to a certain extent you still need large portions of rage to build up.
Personally I use my execute swap for the duration of my deathwish, then switch back to my normal loadout.
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Originally Posted by Korlong
It is also important to realize that Bloodthirst is still more DPR than execute, so you should be doing a BT, E, E rotation or something similar based on rage availability sub-20% when you don't have reck up, so to a certain extent you still need large portions of rage to build up.
Personally I use my execute swap for the duration of my deathwish, then switch back to my normal loadout. |
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Originally Posted by LodeRunner
People demonstrate this with 10 rage execute models. What about those of us with 7 rage executes?
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30 rage execute with 7 rage cost is 925+23*21=1408
For BT to hit the same divide it by .45 to find your AP.
Once you have 3129 AP your BT hits harder than a 30 rage execute. The tricky part is making sure that you have that 30 rage 1.5s after your previous execute.
If above 50 rage, I'll use bloodthirst, even in execute range.
At least until the WW change, how does Boundless Agony stand up as an offhand?
I'm our main tank and just pick up the scraps. Azgalor dropped our forth one and it was gonna get blown up so I picked it up to toy around with. On the times I get to play Fury, I've been offhanding Swiftsteel Bludgeon but read a few pages back it's not as incredible as it seems on first glance.
Apologies if I could answer this with the spreadsheet; I don't have Excel and any attempt to open it with anything else made it buggy to the point of useless.
I'm our main tank and just pick up the scraps. Azgalor dropped our forth one and it was gonna get blown up so I picked it up to toy around with. On the times I get to play Fury, I've been offhanding Swiftsteel Bludgeon but read a few pages back it's not as incredible as it seems on first glance.
Apologies if I could answer this with the spreadsheet; I don't have Excel and any attempt to open it with anything else made it buggy to the point of useless.
It's currently the best off hand sans a Warglaive according to the pre 2.3 changes spreadsheet.
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Originally Posted by Russta
Apologies if I could answer this with the spreadsheet; I don't have Excel and any attempt to open it with anything else made it buggy to the point of useless.
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hmm
So for a warrior post 2.3 a slow oh is best? Which would you say i sbetter, the season 3 slow 1 hander or the rising tide... or what? Im just not able to get a solid answer on the best 2 to duel wield post 2.3.
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Originally Posted by seasonlight
So for a warrior post 2.3 a slow oh is best? Which would you say i sbetter, the season 3 slow 1 hander or the rising tide... or what? Im just not able to get a solid answer on the best 2 to duel wield post 2.3.
|
|
Originally Posted by Kaos
Please stop perpetuating this misleading train of thought, slam is not in fact normalized, however due to the nature of the rotation a faster weapon will slam more often, thus speed is pretty inconsequential (barring extremely low speeds of course).
|
|
Originally Posted by Kaos
Please stop perpetuating this misleading train of thought, slam is not in fact normalized, however due to the nature of the rotation a faster weapon will slam more often, thus speed is pretty inconsequential (barring extremely low speeds of course).
|
|
Originally Posted by Kaos
Please stop perpetuating this misleading train of thought, slam is not in fact normalized, however due to the nature of the rotation a faster weapon will slam more often, thus speed is pretty inconsequential (barring extremely low speeds of course).
|
Assuming 0.2 seconds lag
A 3.0 speed weapon will have its lagged speed be 3.2 seconds
A 4.0 speed weapon will have its lagged speed be 4.2 seconds
3/3.2 = 0.9375
4/4.2 = 0.9524
0.9524/0.9375 = 1.0159
Thus with 0.2 seconds of lag a 4.0 speed weapon will produce 1.6% more damage from slam+autoattack than a 3.0 speed weapon.
Now granted the difference between a 3.6 speed weapon and a 3.8 speed weapon is pretty marginal but it is there.
I was recently given my guild's first Cataclysm's Edge for the purpose of using a pve MS build for blood frenzy in raids. When I received it the first question that came up was what enchant to put on it. At first I wanted to put mongoose on it but after browsing the armory for profiles of MS warrior in top raiding guilds I found that there was a pretty even distribution of savagery and mongoose on their two-handed weapons.
Since that search didn't yield any significant conclusion I decided to search the forums here but once again nothing definitive came up. I'm sure the question has been asked and answered before but is there a general consensus for either mongoose or savagery on two-handed weapons for pve dps?
Since that search didn't yield any significant conclusion I decided to search the forums here but once again nothing definitive came up. I'm sure the question has been asked and answered before but is there a general consensus for either mongoose or savagery on two-handed weapons for pve dps?
I have had both on the BS axes and prefer Savagery. the constant AP > the proc, in my view but once 2.3 is out, you'll get Executioner anyway
I've got savagery on bloodmoon at the moment, but the warrior dps spreadsheet reports mongoose does more dps. I'm not going to re-enchant thought since I plan on getting Exe.
Sorry for my ignorance, when this was mentioned anywhere before...
what would be better for 2.3: mongoose or 20 str on offhand? Spreadsheet is always displaying more dps for 20 str on offhand, but I've read mongoose would be better for higher equipment. Also, Mongoose will be replaced with Executioner on mainhand. So I'm a little bit confused... what is actually better now?
what would be better for 2.3: mongoose or 20 str on offhand? Spreadsheet is always displaying more dps for 20 str on offhand, but I've read mongoose would be better for higher equipment. Also, Mongoose will be replaced with Executioner on mainhand. So I'm a little bit confused... what is actually better now?
|
Originally Posted by Kaan
Sorry for my ignorance, when this was mentioned anywhere before...
what would be better for 2.3: mongoose or 20 str on offhand? Spreadsheet is always displaying more dps for 20 str on offhand, but I've read mongoose would be better for higher equipment. Also, Mongoose will be replaced with Executioner on mainhand. So I'm a little bit confused... what is actually better now? |
For an OH, it will depend on exec's proc rate, if it stacks. It also depends on your gear level as it does now.
Spreadsheet is mentioning that executioner does not stack (see comment, when selecting executioner on offhand). So actually my question was, if potency beats mongoose on offhand, considering 2.3.
Question, sorry If I missed the answer but I didnt see it browsing through.... I see lots of people saying BT/Hyjal weapons will be buffed because of how good S3 weapons are. Is this a guess, based on the SSC/TK weapons buff and the fact that logicly they should be buffed, or is this a fact written in cement?
As for DPS on Teron Gorefiend I have done 1650 dps with 33/28 and 1880 as DW fury. I am able to do this because our Shaman twists Tranq air and WF for me. Tranq is a huge help, I suggest finding some way to get your shaman to do it. I chug haste pots and we use CoR, etc.
As for DPS on Teron Gorefiend I have done 1650 dps with 33/28 and 1880 as DW fury. I am able to do this because our Shaman twists Tranq air and WF for me. Tranq is a huge help, I suggest finding some way to get your shaman to do it. I chug haste pots and we use CoR, etc.
To my knowledge Blizzard has not officially stated that they will be buffing T6 weapons. It would be logical though.
|
Originally Posted by LodeRunner
He turns to cast things on people and you could have been using specials on those brief moments.
edit- bleh, beaten |
Edited onPatch 2.2.3
|
Originally Posted by Quixotic
Changed my helm gem from green to yellow, and I use 2pc T6 (shoulders/pants) gemmed properly in PvE. I just logged out with the itemrack set I had before I got the 2pc.
|
What about other fights in BT?How well does a Fury Warrior stand in the DPS chart in there?
Last edited by Danath : 10/30/07 at 6:46 AM.
Those are usually reports with bugged splits that read something like 8 million damage done in 4 minutes. Considering it'd currently take the utmost out of tanks to push out 1.2k TPS in that encounter I don't really see how a fury warrior can get away with anything near that. Theoritically in a super ideal sort of situation you could get close I suppose - enrage procs off constructs. 5 heroisms, a 'very' stacked totem twisting group etc. I don't think it's viable threat wise however, dying and stoning back up is still a DPS loss from time/buffs.
Yes when mobs turn to cast something with RSTS they stop meleeing (usually, I have seen mobs cast/channel and melee/do other things at the same time - a good example would be Illidari Flames + Warstomp combos on the Supremus trash). Though I haven't really checked logs to see if the melee swing is reset. Archimonde and Teron are good example of such busy bees, they often stops meleeing the tank for short periods (out of experience alone though, no numerical proof).
Yes when mobs turn to cast something with RSTS they stop meleeing (usually, I have seen mobs cast/channel and melee/do other things at the same time - a good example would be Illidari Flames + Warstomp combos on the Supremus trash). Though I haven't really checked logs to see if the melee swing is reset. Archimonde and Teron are good example of such busy bees, they often stops meleeing the tank for short periods (out of experience alone though, no numerical proof).
|
Originally Posted by Kaan
Spreadsheet is mentioning that executioner does not stack (see comment, when selecting executioner on offhand). So actually my question was, if potency beats mongoose on offhand, considering 2.3.
|
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Originally Posted by Korlong
Using a fast offhand does not increase Heroic Strike use. There is no "theorycrafting" involved in this decision, there are no theoretical advantages to using a fast offhand over a slow offhand provided you manage your rage properly, whereas a slow offhand yields higher whirlwind damage.
|
However, I doubt this effect can make up for the extra WW damage with a slow offhand weapon of the same dps (definitely not for daggers anyway).
|
Originally Posted by Gruntle
You're right that a fast offhand doesn't really increase HS usage (even though I've read some unsubstantiated claims that UW still is slightly better with fast weapons). The main reason for using fast offhands still stand though. You build up rage faster between executes with a fast OH weapon (actually also with a fast MH), giving higher execute damage.
However, I doubt this effect can make up for the extra WW damage with a slow offhand weapon of the same dps (definitely not for daggers anyway). |
It is also important to realize that Bloodthirst is still more DPR than execute, so you should be doing a BT, E, E rotation or something similar based on rage availability sub-20% when you don't have reck up, so to a certain extent you still need large portions of rage to build up.
Personally I use my execute swap for the duration of my deathwish, then switch back to my normal loadout.
|
Originally Posted by Korlong
It is also important to realize that Bloodthirst is still more DPR than execute, so you should be doing a BT, E, E rotation or something similar based on rage availability sub-20% when you don't have reck up, so to a certain extent you still need large portions of rage to build up.
Personally I use my execute swap for the duration of my deathwish, then switch back to my normal loadout. |
|
Originally Posted by LodeRunner
People demonstrate this with 10 rage execute models. What about those of us with 7 rage executes?
|
30 rage execute with 7 rage cost is 925+23*21=1408
For BT to hit the same divide it by .45 to find your AP.
Once you have 3129 AP your BT hits harder than a 30 rage execute. The tricky part is making sure that you have that 30 rage 1.5s after your previous execute.
If above 50 rage, I'll use bloodthirst, even in execute range.
At least until the WW change, how does Boundless Agony stand up as an offhand?
I'm our main tank and just pick up the scraps. Azgalor dropped our forth one and it was gonna get blown up so I picked it up to toy around with. On the times I get to play Fury, I've been offhanding Swiftsteel Bludgeon but read a few pages back it's not as incredible as it seems on first glance.
Apologies if I could answer this with the spreadsheet; I don't have Excel and any attempt to open it with anything else made it buggy to the point of useless.
I'm our main tank and just pick up the scraps. Azgalor dropped our forth one and it was gonna get blown up so I picked it up to toy around with. On the times I get to play Fury, I've been offhanding Swiftsteel Bludgeon but read a few pages back it's not as incredible as it seems on first glance.
Apologies if I could answer this with the spreadsheet; I don't have Excel and any attempt to open it with anything else made it buggy to the point of useless.
It's currently the best off hand sans a Warglaive according to the pre 2.3 changes spreadsheet.
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Originally Posted by Russta
Apologies if I could answer this with the spreadsheet; I don't have Excel and any attempt to open it with anything else made it buggy to the point of useless.
|
hmm
So for a warrior post 2.3 a slow oh is best? Which would you say i sbetter, the season 3 slow 1 hander or the rising tide... or what? Im just not able to get a solid answer on the best 2 to duel wield post 2.3.
|
Originally Posted by seasonlight
So for a warrior post 2.3 a slow oh is best? Which would you say i sbetter, the season 3 slow 1 hander or the rising tide... or what? Im just not able to get a solid answer on the best 2 to duel wield post 2.3.
|
Is the list Graul mention current or for 2.3? If it is for the patch, I'm quite shocked that [Rising Tide] is below a dagger, the S2 fast OH and Talon.
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Originally Posted by Randor
Is the list Graul mention current or for 2.3? If it is for the patch, I'm quite shocked that [Rising Tide] is below a dagger, the S2 fast OH and Talon.
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Edited onPatch 2.2.3
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Originally Posted by Randor
Is the list Graul mention current or for 2.3? If it is for the patch, I'm quite shocked that [Rising Tide] is below a dagger, the S2 fast OH and Talon.
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Last edited by Graul : 11/01/07 at 2:54 AM.
With the latest version of the spreadsheet, it looks like 2 x Blade of Infamy is the next best thing after S3 and Warglaives in 2.3. The other slow one handers in BT/MH aren't all that impressive. Rising Tide has valuable item points in stamina which should be converted to a dps stat. All the dps weapons up to MH/BT don't have itemization points in stamina so I don't know why they decided to do it for this one particular item. Syphon has the slowest speed, but that isn't important for an OH and the proc seems pretty lackluster to me though I have never tried it myself. Blizzard should implement more slow weapons.
Edited onPatch 2.2.3
They would have to upgrade [Rising Tide] by a fair margin for it to even come close to a Season 3 axe. Too many item points are wasted in stamina and hit. The logical upgrade, were it to happen would result in it looking something like:
215 - 321 Damage
(103 damage per second)
+35 Stamina
Equip: Improves hit rating by 23.
Equip: Increases attack power by 47.
Upgraded to that puts it just barely above a 2.6 speed Season 2 axe and right below a Blade of Infamy for off handers. It's also just right below the T3 smithed weapons as a main hander for those that never took smithing. I was considering looting one eventually if one was going to rot in hope that it would get boosted enough to actually be worth using, but with 2.3 on the horizon the chances of me taking one is looking pretty slim.
215 - 321 Damage
(103 damage per second)
+35 Stamina
Equip: Improves hit rating by 23.
Equip: Increases attack power by 47.
Upgraded to that puts it just barely above a 2.6 speed Season 2 axe and right below a Blade of Infamy for off handers. It's also just right below the T3 smithed weapons as a main hander for those that never took smithing. I was considering looting one eventually if one was going to rot in hope that it would get boosted enough to actually be worth using, but with 2.3 on the horizon the chances of me taking one is looking pretty slim.
Last edited by Graul : 11/01/07 at 6:57 AM.
I have a quick question regarding trinkets.
I am currently specced 17/44
my stats are 1800 ap unbuffed, 168 hit rating, 30.24% crit rating.
My current trinkets are Hourglass of the unraveller and Abacus of violent odds. I recently got a trinket from heroic blood furnace, 30 hit, and an on use armor penetration effect. Which of my trinkets should i drop to take this hit rating trinket?
Secondly, i was considering dropping my abacus for bloodlust brooch. worth it or no?
Thanks for any advice
armory link btw is The World of Warcraft Armory
I am currently specced 17/44
my stats are 1800 ap unbuffed, 168 hit rating, 30.24% crit rating.
My current trinkets are Hourglass of the unraveller and Abacus of violent odds. I recently got a trinket from heroic blood furnace, 30 hit, and an on use armor penetration effect. Which of my trinkets should i drop to take this hit rating trinket?
Secondly, i was considering dropping my abacus for bloodlust brooch. worth it or no?
Thanks for any advice
armory link btw is The World of Warcraft Armory
|
Originally Posted by sundertaker101
I have a quick question regarding trinkets.
I am currently specced 17/44 my stats are 1800 ap unbuffed, 168 hit rating, 30.24% crit rating. My current trinkets are Hourglass of the unraveller and Abacus of violent odds. I recently got a trinket from heroic blood furnace, 30 hit, and an on use armor penetration effect. Which of my trinkets should i drop to take this hit rating trinket? Secondly, i was considering dropping my abacus for bloodlust brooch. worth it or no? Thanks for any advice armory link btw is The World of Warcraft Armory |
What do you think?
It would seem to me that -AC only really shines when stacked, and when you're at the gear level of stacking -AC better trinkets become more readily available, like [Madness of the Betrayer]
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Originally Posted by LodeRunner
It would seem to me that -AC only really shines when stacked, and when you're at the gear level of stacking -AC better trinkets become more readily available, like [Madness of the Betrayer]
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so...anyone able to answer my post
If you plug those trinkets into the DPS Warrior Spreadsheet, you should find that the best combination is the Hourglass and the Brooch.
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Originally Posted by sundertaker101
so...anyone able to answer my post
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Besides, what works for you may not work well for someone else and vise versa.
Who is planning to prioritize Whirlwind above Bloodthirst in 2.3? Now that it attacks with both weapons, not only do you get a skill with two opportunities to proc Flurry, but it costs slightly less rage with comparable damage.
Assuming 5/5 DW spec, then pure contribution from attack power is ((AP/14)*2.4)*1.625 = 0.28*AP, which isn't bad considering it also gets the damage from your weapons added in. The gap of 17% attack power means that your total DPS contribution from weapons would have to exceed 17% of your attack power to edge it out:
0.17*AP > (weapon damage * 1.625) -> AP*0.10 > weapon damage -> AP > 10*(weapon damage)
Assuming two weapons with an average damage of 250, I believe you'd still be getting more damage out of Bloodthirst if you had more than 2500 attack power (which is practically always true), but it would be close. So it looks like it all depends on how important the additional Flurry procs and reduced rage cost are to you.
Assuming 5/5 DW spec, then pure contribution from attack power is ((AP/14)*2.4)*1.625 = 0.28*AP, which isn't bad considering it also gets the damage from your weapons added in. The gap of 17% attack power means that your total DPS contribution from weapons would have to exceed 17% of your attack power to edge it out:
0.17*AP > (weapon damage * 1.625) -> AP*0.10 > weapon damage -> AP > 10*(weapon damage)
Assuming two weapons with an average damage of 250, I believe you'd still be getting more damage out of Bloodthirst if you had more than 2500 attack power (which is practically always true), but it would be close. So it looks like it all depends on how important the additional Flurry procs and reduced rage cost are to you.
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Originally Posted by Danath
That's actually what I think and what I tried to say in the previous post. With several -armor debuffs the stat is potentially great, but the spreadsheet doesn't seem to agree. That's why I would love some theorycraft on ignore armor chances in 2.3, high-end gear.
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[Grips of Silent Justice]
[Leggings of Divine Retribution]
[Vengeful Gladiator's Plate Chestpiece]
[Vengeful Gladiator's Chopper]
[Ancient Sin'dorei Longbow]
These are all essentially the best items you can get for those slots. [Madness of the Betrayer] is only beaten by the new [Berserker's Call] but only by 2-4 DPS. For "ease of use" or "fire and forget" purposes, MoTB is better.
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Originally Posted by Nezralix
Who is planning to prioritize Whirlwind above Bloodthirst in 2.3? Now that it attacks with both weapons, not only do you get a skill with two opportunities to proc Flurry, but it costs slightly less rage with comparable damage.
Assuming 5/5 DW spec, then pure contribution from attack power is ((AP/14)*2.4)*1.625 = 0.28*AP, which isn't bad considering it also gets the damage from your weapons added in. The gap of 17% attack power means that your total DPS contribution from weapons would have to exceed 17% of your attack power to edge it out: 0.17*AP > (weapon damage * 1.625) -> AP*0.10 > weapon damage -> AP > 10*(weapon damage) Assuming two weapons with an average damage of 250, I believe you'd still be getting more damage out of Bloodthirst if you had more than 2500 attack power (which is practically always true), but it would be close. So it looks like it all depends on how important the additional Flurry procs and reduced rage cost are to you. |
I don't believe the S3 arena chest is superior to the Onslaught chest, especially considering set bonuses. Furthermore, I still show DST as the best trinket by far with the DPS spreadsheet.
Edited onPatch 2.2.3
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Originally Posted by Opalira
I don't believe the S3 arena chest is superior to the Onslaught chest, especially considering set bonuses. Furthermore, I still show DST as the best trinket by far with the DPS spreadsheet.
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Last edited by Graul : 11/01/07 at 1:05 PM.
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Originally Posted by Graul
Both Berserker's and Madness beat the DST in the optimal dual wield set. And Onslaught is not even a consideration for the set bonus simply because all of the off set items are superior by themselves. I highly doubt lowering your Execute cost by 3 and having an additional 80 - 120 dmg per Bloodthirst is going to make up for the wasted stat values on Onslaught.
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Originally Posted by Gruntle
I wonder if this change might also change the optimal 3/2 cycle? Maybe a cycle with 2/2 imp ww could actually do better with the new WW. Should be easy enough to test in the spreadsheet (can't run it myself atm).
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Using 0.9.15
I'm using the same version Graul. I just don't know how you're getting such different results from me. I appreciate the fact that Onslaught does have agility and not crit rating, but the arena gear has even more stamina and resil, which are hardly free stats.
I've also noticed some really wierd behavior with the spreadsheet as well. Swapping one gem for another will sometimes change the listed DPS by as much as 20. Swapping the DST, MoTB and BC around bounced it anywhere between 4-46 just swapping the same trinkets in and out.
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Originally Posted by Graul
I've also noticed some really wierd behavior with the spreadsheet as well. Swapping one gem for another will sometimes change the listed DPS by as much as 20. Swapping the DST, MoTB and BC around bounced it anywhere between 4-46 just swapping the same trinkets in and out.
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The discontinuous dps jumps is normally due to that the rage income becomes enough to trigger an extra HS in the cycle.
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Originally Posted by Graul
The spreadsheet agrees just fine. Look at the SEP values and then update it each time you add a piece of gear. The more -AC you add the higher the SEP value is. The only time adding more -AC gear could be a waste is if your -AC exceeds the bosses AC after it's fully raid debuffed. And I think you would need around -2300 (?) to even come close to doing that.
[Grips of Silent Justice] [Leggings of Divine Retribution] [Vengeful Gladiator's Plate Chestpiece] [Vengeful Gladiator's Chopper] [Ancient Sin'dorei Longbow] These are all essentially the best items you can get for those slots. [Madness of the Betrayer] is only beaten by the new [Berserker's Call] but only by 2-4 DPS. For "ease of use" or "fire and forget" purposes, MoTB is better. |
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Originally Posted by Graul
Both Berserker's and Madness beat the DST in the optimal dual wield set. And Onslaught is not even a consideration for the set bonus simply because all of the off set items are superior by themselves. I highly doubt lowering your Execute cost by 3 and having an additional 80 - 120 dmg per Bloodthirst is going to make up for the wasted stat values on Onslaught. The Onslaught bp beats the Season 3 by approximately 5 DPS in the best possible gear you can get besides having Warglaives. It's also obviously easier to get a season 3 chest than it is to get an Onslaught chest if your guild has never downed Illidan yet.
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Actually, spreadsheet for me shows onslaught chest/shoulders with 3/3 precision and no imp execute as 23 more dps than midnight chestguard/blood-stained shoulders with 1/3 precision and 2/2 imp execute. interesting indeed
thoughts on this?
Is the list Graul mention current or for 2.3? If it is for the patch, I'm quite shocked that [Rising Tide] is below a dagger, the S2 fast OH and Talon.
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Originally Posted by Randor
Is the list Graul mention current or for 2.3? If it is for the patch, I'm quite shocked that [Rising Tide] is below a dagger, the S2 fast OH and Talon.
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Edited onPatch 2.2.3
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Originally Posted by Randor
Is the list Graul mention current or for 2.3? If it is for the patch, I'm quite shocked that [Rising Tide] is below a dagger, the S2 fast OH and Talon.
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Last edited by Graul : 11/01/07 at 2:54 AM.
With the latest version of the spreadsheet, it looks like 2 x Blade of Infamy is the next best thing after S3 and Warglaives in 2.3. The other slow one handers in BT/MH aren't all that impressive. Rising Tide has valuable item points in stamina which should be converted to a dps stat. All the dps weapons up to MH/BT don't have itemization points in stamina so I don't know why they decided to do it for this one particular item. Syphon has the slowest speed, but that isn't important for an OH and the proc seems pretty lackluster to me though I have never tried it myself. Blizzard should implement more slow weapons.
Edited onPatch 2.2.3
They would have to upgrade [Rising Tide] by a fair margin for it to even come close to a Season 3 axe. Too many item points are wasted in stamina and hit. The logical upgrade, were it to happen would result in it looking something like:
215 - 321 Damage
(103 damage per second)
+35 Stamina
Equip: Improves hit rating by 23.
Equip: Increases attack power by 47.
Upgraded to that puts it just barely above a 2.6 speed Season 2 axe and right below a Blade of Infamy for off handers. It's also just right below the T3 smithed weapons as a main hander for those that never took smithing. I was considering looting one eventually if one was going to rot in hope that it would get boosted enough to actually be worth using, but with 2.3 on the horizon the chances of me taking one is looking pretty slim.
215 - 321 Damage
(103 damage per second)
+35 Stamina
Equip: Improves hit rating by 23.
Equip: Increases attack power by 47.
Upgraded to that puts it just barely above a 2.6 speed Season 2 axe and right below a Blade of Infamy for off handers. It's also just right below the T3 smithed weapons as a main hander for those that never took smithing. I was considering looting one eventually if one was going to rot in hope that it would get boosted enough to actually be worth using, but with 2.3 on the horizon the chances of me taking one is looking pretty slim.
Last edited by Graul : 11/01/07 at 6:57 AM.
I have a quick question regarding trinkets.
I am currently specced 17/44
my stats are 1800 ap unbuffed, 168 hit rating, 30.24% crit rating.
My current trinkets are Hourglass of the unraveller and Abacus of violent odds. I recently got a trinket from heroic blood furnace, 30 hit, and an on use armor penetration effect. Which of my trinkets should i drop to take this hit rating trinket?
Secondly, i was considering dropping my abacus for bloodlust brooch. worth it or no?
Thanks for any advice
armory link btw is The World of Warcraft Armory
I am currently specced 17/44
my stats are 1800 ap unbuffed, 168 hit rating, 30.24% crit rating.
My current trinkets are Hourglass of the unraveller and Abacus of violent odds. I recently got a trinket from heroic blood furnace, 30 hit, and an on use armor penetration effect. Which of my trinkets should i drop to take this hit rating trinket?
Secondly, i was considering dropping my abacus for bloodlust brooch. worth it or no?
Thanks for any advice
armory link btw is The World of Warcraft Armory
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Originally Posted by sundertaker101
I have a quick question regarding trinkets.
I am currently specced 17/44 my stats are 1800 ap unbuffed, 168 hit rating, 30.24% crit rating. My current trinkets are Hourglass of the unraveller and Abacus of violent odds. I recently got a trinket from heroic blood furnace, 30 hit, and an on use armor penetration effect. Which of my trinkets should i drop to take this hit rating trinket? Secondly, i was considering dropping my abacus for bloodlust brooch. worth it or no? Thanks for any advice armory link btw is The World of Warcraft Armory |
What do you think?
It would seem to me that -AC only really shines when stacked, and when you're at the gear level of stacking -AC better trinkets become more readily available, like [Madness of the Betrayer]
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Originally Posted by LodeRunner
It would seem to me that -AC only really shines when stacked, and when you're at the gear level of stacking -AC better trinkets become more readily available, like [Madness of the Betrayer]
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so...anyone able to answer my post
If you plug those trinkets into the DPS Warrior Spreadsheet, you should find that the best combination is the Hourglass and the Brooch.
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Originally Posted by sundertaker101
so...anyone able to answer my post
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Besides, what works for you may not work well for someone else and vise versa.
Who is planning to prioritize Whirlwind above Bloodthirst in 2.3? Now that it attacks with both weapons, not only do you get a skill with two opportunities to proc Flurry, but it costs slightly less rage with comparable damage.
Assuming 5/5 DW spec, then pure contribution from attack power is ((AP/14)*2.4)*1.625 = 0.28*AP, which isn't bad considering it also gets the damage from your weapons added in. The gap of 17% attack power means that your total DPS contribution from weapons would have to exceed 17% of your attack power to edge it out:
0.17*AP > (weapon damage * 1.625) -> AP*0.10 > weapon damage -> AP > 10*(weapon damage)
Assuming two weapons with an average damage of 250, I believe you'd still be getting more damage out of Bloodthirst if you had more than 2500 attack power (which is practically always true), but it would be close. So it looks like it all depends on how important the additional Flurry procs and reduced rage cost are to you.
Assuming 5/5 DW spec, then pure contribution from attack power is ((AP/14)*2.4)*1.625 = 0.28*AP, which isn't bad considering it also gets the damage from your weapons added in. The gap of 17% attack power means that your total DPS contribution from weapons would have to exceed 17% of your attack power to edge it out:
0.17*AP > (weapon damage * 1.625) -> AP*0.10 > weapon damage -> AP > 10*(weapon damage)
Assuming two weapons with an average damage of 250, I believe you'd still be getting more damage out of Bloodthirst if you had more than 2500 attack power (which is practically always true), but it would be close. So it looks like it all depends on how important the additional Flurry procs and reduced rage cost are to you.
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Originally Posted by Danath
That's actually what I think and what I tried to say in the previous post. With several -armor debuffs the stat is potentially great, but the spreadsheet doesn't seem to agree. That's why I would love some theorycraft on ignore armor chances in 2.3, high-end gear.
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[Grips of Silent Justice]
[Leggings of Divine Retribution]
[Vengeful Gladiator's Plate Chestpiece]
[Vengeful Gladiator's Chopper]
[Ancient Sin'dorei Longbow]
These are all essentially the best items you can get for those slots. [Madness of the Betrayer] is only beaten by the new [Berserker's Call] but only by 2-4 DPS. For "ease of use" or "fire and forget" purposes, MoTB is better.
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Originally Posted by Nezralix
Who is planning to prioritize Whirlwind above Bloodthirst in 2.3? Now that it attacks with both weapons, not only do you get a skill with two opportunities to proc Flurry, but it costs slightly less rage with comparable damage.
Assuming 5/5 DW spec, then pure contribution from attack power is ((AP/14)*2.4)*1.625 = 0.28*AP, which isn't bad considering it also gets the damage from your weapons added in. The gap of 17% attack power means that your total DPS contribution from weapons would have to exceed 17% of your attack power to edge it out: 0.17*AP > (weapon damage * 1.625) -> AP*0.10 > weapon damage -> AP > 10*(weapon damage) Assuming two weapons with an average damage of 250, I believe you'd still be getting more damage out of Bloodthirst if you had more than 2500 attack power (which is practically always true), but it would be close. So it looks like it all depends on how important the additional Flurry procs and reduced rage cost are to you. |
I don't believe the S3 arena chest is superior to the Onslaught chest, especially considering set bonuses. Furthermore, I still show DST as the best trinket by far with the DPS spreadsheet.
Edited onPatch 2.2.3
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Originally Posted by Opalira
I don't believe the S3 arena chest is superior to the Onslaught chest, especially considering set bonuses. Furthermore, I still show DST as the best trinket by far with the DPS spreadsheet.
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Last edited by Graul : 11/01/07 at 1:05 PM.
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Originally Posted by Graul
Both Berserker's and Madness beat the DST in the optimal dual wield set. And Onslaught is not even a consideration for the set bonus simply because all of the off set items are superior by themselves. I highly doubt lowering your Execute cost by 3 and having an additional 80 - 120 dmg per Bloodthirst is going to make up for the wasted stat values on Onslaught.
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Originally Posted by Gruntle
I wonder if this change might also change the optimal 3/2 cycle? Maybe a cycle with 2/2 imp ww could actually do better with the new WW. Should be easy enough to test in the spreadsheet (can't run it myself atm).
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Using 0.9.15
I'm using the same version Graul. I just don't know how you're getting such different results from me. I appreciate the fact that Onslaught does have agility and not crit rating, but the arena gear has even more stamina and resil, which are hardly free stats.
I've also noticed some really wierd behavior with the spreadsheet as well. Swapping one gem for another will sometimes change the listed DPS by as much as 20. Swapping the DST, MoTB and BC around bounced it anywhere between 4-46 just swapping the same trinkets in and out.
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Originally Posted by Graul
I've also noticed some really wierd behavior with the spreadsheet as well. Swapping one gem for another will sometimes change the listed DPS by as much as 20. Swapping the DST, MoTB and BC around bounced it anywhere between 4-46 just swapping the same trinkets in and out.
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The discontinuous dps jumps is normally due to that the rage income becomes enough to trigger an extra HS in the cycle.
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Originally Posted by Graul
The spreadsheet agrees just fine. Look at the SEP values and then update it each time you add a piece of gear. The more -AC you add the higher the SEP value is. The only time adding more -AC gear could be a waste is if your -AC exceeds the bosses AC after it's fully raid debuffed. And I think you would need around -2300 (?) to even come close to doing that.
[Grips of Silent Justice] [Leggings of Divine Retribution] [Vengeful Gladiator's Plate Chestpiece] [Vengeful Gladiator's Chopper] [Ancient Sin'dorei Longbow] These are all essentially the best items you can get for those slots. [Madness of the Betrayer] is only beaten by the new [Berserker's Call] but only by 2-4 DPS. For "ease of use" or "fire and forget" purposes, MoTB is better. |
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Originally Posted by Graul
Both Berserker's and Madness beat the DST in the optimal dual wield set. And Onslaught is not even a consideration for the set bonus simply because all of the off set items are superior by themselves. I highly doubt lowering your Execute cost by 3 and having an additional 80 - 120 dmg per Bloodthirst is going to make up for the wasted stat values on Onslaught. The Onslaught bp beats the Season 3 by approximately 5 DPS in the best possible gear you can get besides having Warglaives. It's also obviously easier to get a season 3 chest than it is to get an Onslaught chest if your guild has never downed Illidan yet.
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Actually, spreadsheet for me shows onslaught chest/shoulders with 3/3 precision and no imp execute as 23 more dps than midnight chestguard/blood-stained shoulders with 1/3 precision and 2/2 imp execute. interesting indeed
thoughts on this?
A lot of people seem to be assuming that Onslaught is poor fury gear. Initially this was my reaction too, all the pieces have a ton of stamina, they all have agility instead of crit rating. Relatively high +Hit levels can still be obtained while wearing four pieces of Onslaught, items like Madness of the Betrayer do a lot to make that possible. Both set bonuses on the Onslaught set are decent, especially compared to some previous bonuses.
Frankly I don't know what the best gear set up is, but I don't think its wise to just write off Onslaught without some real game play experience.
Frankly I don't know what the best gear set up is, but I don't think its wise to just write off Onslaught without some real game play experience.
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Originally Posted by Geneticc
Actually, spreadsheet for me shows onslaught chest/shoulders with 3/3 precision and no imp execute as 23 more dps than midnight chestguard/blood-stained shoulders with 1/3 precision and 2/2 imp execute. interesting indeed
 thoughts on this? |
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Originally Posted by Opalira
A lot of people seem to be assuming that Onslaught is poor fury gear.
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Originally Posted by Graul
I don't understand why you aren't comparing both gear setups to the same talent spec. Precision is better than Imp Execute in either setup.
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i had a reason, and now i forgot. that was stupid of me, i apologize lol. anyway, i just plugged it in and its 20more dps with 2 piece onslaught ( chest and shoulders) than blood-stained and midnight chestguard. All this time ive been passing both chest and shoulders, crap
.edit: that was the same spec btw =p
Assuming +10 str gems in all slots for the sake of simplicity, and I'm sure it gets more complex(Midnight chest having AP vs Str, socket bonuses, metas, etc) but here's a basic break-down.
Helm of the Illidari Shatterer vs Onslaught Battle-Helm
.70% Crit/2.09% Hit vs 7 Str/-109 Armor Pen
Midnight Chestguard vs Onslaught Breastplate
.96% Crit/.80% Hit vs 11 AP/126 armor pen
Grips of Silent Justice vs Onslaught Gauntlets
9 Str/.93% Hit/-84 Armor Ignore vs 1% Crit
Legguards of Endless Rage vs Onslaught Greaves
.85% Crit/.31% Hit vs 2 str/105 Armor Ignore.
Blood-stained Pauldrons vs Onslaught Shoulderblades
.28% Crit/1.42% Hit vs 12 str/91 Armor Ignore.
Total
1.79 Crit/5.55% Hit vs 12 str/11AP/353 Armor Ignore
Helm of the Illidari Shatterer vs Onslaught Battle-Helm
.70% Crit/2.09% Hit vs 7 Str/-109 Armor Pen
Midnight Chestguard vs Onslaught Breastplate
.96% Crit/.80% Hit vs 11 AP/126 armor pen
Grips of Silent Justice vs Onslaught Gauntlets
9 Str/.93% Hit/-84 Armor Ignore vs 1% Crit
Legguards of Endless Rage vs Onslaught Greaves
.85% Crit/.31% Hit vs 2 str/105 Armor Ignore.
Blood-stained Pauldrons vs Onslaught Shoulderblades
.28% Crit/1.42% Hit vs 12 str/91 Armor Ignore.
Total
1.79 Crit/5.55% Hit vs 12 str/11AP/353 Armor Ignore
Edited onPatch 2.2.3
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Originally Posted by Enkidu
A few things Graul, firstly you should stop using Hamstring really, it's no longer needed. From your relatively low HS/Cleave usage while you were still using Berserker Rage (should use it as much as possible in that fight) it seems you were threat capped? You took enough damage to have near endless rage for the most part.
It should be pretty easy for a decently geared warrior (at that point) just hitting Teron to see 1400-1500 DPS but it requires heavier HS usage and more intelligent BR usage, a lot of the mileage for a lot of warriors depends on their tanks also for this tank and spank, I found myslef threat cap at Teron on almost all kills, mostly during the first 30% and the last 20% and that was with our tank doing ~900-980 TPS for the most part and at times even with TA. Also, if you're interested in getting CoR more often you could pick up Imp.DS instead of UW, that would make it almost a wash even for learning encounters where you want to maximize tank survivability such as early Teron kills, aswell as giving yourself more threat leeway thanks to freeing up some GCD time for him. I have raided without UW for a short while and as long as you have a Shaman it's hardly noticeable. Edit: Why was your execute crit rate so low? When did you use Recklessness? |
Wow Web Stats
We also had the groups setup slightly different and I suggested we don't even bother trying to use any kind of Bloodlust rotation for the melee group (was used last week) and to just use it at the start in the tank/OT (doing DPS) group for a decent threat lead. We also had a Feral in the melee group this week, last week it was a third Rogue. I think from now on though any time we have three Rogues, the third will go into the tank group. They will still get totems and a Sapphired BS, but the Feral in the melee adds more overall raid DPS, even if that one Rogue is doing slightly less.
Last edited by Graul : 11/02/07 at 1:50 AM.
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Originally Posted by Emeraude
Assuming +10 str gems in all slots for the sake of simplicity, and I'm sure it gets more complex(Midnight chest having AP vs Str, socket bonuses, metas, etc) but here's a basic break-down.
Helm of the Illidari Shatterer vs Onslaught Battle-Helm .70% Crit/2.09% Hit vs 7 Str/-109 Armor Pen Midnight Chestguard vs Onslaught Breastplate .96% Crit/.80% Hit vs 11 AP/126 armor pen Grips of Silent Justice vs Onslaught Gauntlets 9 Str/.93% Hit/-84 Armor Ignore vs 1% Crit Legguards of Endless Rage vs Onslaught Greaves .85% Crit/.31% Hit vs 2 str/105 Armor Ignore. Blood-stained Pauldrons vs Onslaught Shoulderblades .28% Crit/1.42% Hit vs 12 str/91 Armor Ignore. Total 1.79 Crit/5.55% Hit vs 12 str/11AP/353 Armor Ignore |
Using this setup will give me more AP and more armor penetration, at the cost of hit and crit. Hit at high levels of gear only helps white hits, as I have enough rage to virtually spam HS the entire fight.
Very nicely done Graul. Personally we've always ran 3 rogues/sham/warr (sapphire trinket). The only encounter we currently put a feral in the DPS group is RoS but that's more for IMP LoTP heals than anything. Then again we don't usually see more than 2 shamans so they're more likely to go in the melee/caster groups, and that is the main reason.
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Originally Posted by Quixotic
Using all 5 pieces of T6 is somewhat silly. For the item slots that T6 covers I plan on getting [Cursed Vision of Sargeras],[Onslaught Shoulderblades], [Onslaught Breastplate], [Grips of Silent Justice], and [Leggings of Divine Retribution].
Using this setup will give me more AP and more armor penetration, at the cost of hit and crit. Hit at high levels of gear only helps white hits, as I have enough rage to virtually spam HS the entire fight. |
Need to post some WWS for us sometimes, I'm curious how a Warrior performs in a raid environment with them(Warglaives).
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Originally Posted by Quixotic
Using all 5 pieces of T6 is somewhat silly. For the item slots that T6 covers I plan on getting [Cursed Vision of Sargeras],[Onslaught Shoulderblades], [Onslaught Breastplate], [Grips of Silent Justice], and [Leggings of Divine Retribution].
Using this setup will give me more AP and more armor penetration, at the cost of hit and crit. Hit at high levels of gear only helps white hits, as I have enough rage to virtually spam HS the entire fight. |
Many guilds won't allow it, at least for the first drops.|
Originally Posted by Danath
It indeed looks like that helm has better overall stats in comparison to the Helm of the Illidari Shatterer; but, will you be able to steal it from rogues?
Many guilds won't allow it, at least for the first drops. |
| Very nicely done Graul. Personally we've always ran 3 rogues/sham/warr (sapphire trinket). |
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Originally Posted by Graul
Whenever we have three Rogues, they are all usually in the melee group, with the Feral in the tank group. Going through the Rogue spreadsheet and entering the current stats of all of our Rogues shows the overall raid DPS is a bit higher when you put the Feral in the melee group and the off Rogue goes into the tank group where they still at least get Shaman totems and non improved BS. That single Rogue is going to lose around 115 personal DPS, but the melee group more than makes up for it. The only time I can see it being more beneficial to keep the Feral in the tank group is for threat sensitive fights.
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Basically putting a resto shaman into the tank group is a wasted spot in my opinion (unless you raid with 4 shamans all the time). You can decide between either making air/tide totem useless for 50% of a group or crippling a rogue with only battleshout (not to forget that 10% AP is HUGE in high end gear, so I doubt our rogues would only lose 115 dps). The only time our tank group has a shaman is in extra threat sensitive fights like RoS.
I did not run any numbers, but I bet best use of those two classes would probably be in a 3x BM Hunter + resto shaman + feral druid group. There is only one class which cannot utilize tide or air totem in this group and the synergy between 3 beastmaster hunters and a feral druid should be far better than any other combination I can think of =)
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Originally Posted by Quixotic
Using all 5 pieces of T6 is somewhat silly. For the item slots that T6 covers I plan on getting [Cursed Vision of Sargeras],[Onslaught Shoulderblades], [Onslaught Breastplate], [Grips of Silent Justice], and [Leggings of Divine Retribution].
Using this setup will give me more AP and more armor penetration, at the cost of hit and crit. Hit at high levels of gear only helps white hits, as I have enough rage to virtually spam HS the entire fight. |
How does the spreadsheet handle that anyway? I wish it had an option for "HS spam" or something. Or does it already assume you have enough rage at a certain gear/buff level? I could ask in the other thread I suppose, but it seems relevant here if anyone knows.
Edited onPatch 2.2.3
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Originally Posted by D4vE
With how many shamans do you raid?
Basically putting a resto shaman into the tank group is a wasted spot in my opinion (unless you raid with 4 shamans all the time). You can decide between either making air/tide totem useless for 50% of a group or crippling a rogue with only battleshout (not to forget that 10% AP is HUGE in high end gear, so I doubt our rogues would only lose 115 dps). The only time our tank group has a shaman is in extra threat sensitive fights like RoS. I did not run any numbers, but I bet best use of those two classes would probably be in a 3x BM Hunter + resto shaman + feral druid group. There is only one class which cannot utilize tide or air totem in this group and the synergy between 3 beastmaster hunters and a feral druid should be far better than any other combination I can think of =) |
Last edited by Graul : 11/02/07 at 10:14 AM.
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Originally Posted by Maskirovka
How does the spreadsheet handle that anyway? I wish it had an option for "HS spam" or something. Or does it already assume you have enough rage at a certain gear/buff level? I could ask in the other thread I suppose, but it seems relevant here if anyone knows.
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Originally Posted by Graul
So, I think I've been able to make an improvement this week after a full night of "Ghost learning".
Wow Web Stats [...] |
) and to outweight the debuff I'd have to do over 1600 DPS as DW Fury. Maybe it's your gear, quite low for Teron 
.|
Originally Posted by Gruntle
The spreadsheet is more advanced than that. It calculates the dps for a number of cycles (18 sec 3BT/2WW is in principle always the best one even though others are calculated as well). For each of these cycles it computes the full rage generation, minus the cost of the abilities (including shout and Rampage), the remaining rage can be used to spam HS/Cleave. Depending on how much extra rage you generate you get a certain number of HS per cycle (in my pre-kara/kara gear I get around 2 HS per cycle). The total dps from the sheet is then white+cycle (incl HS) + execute phase damage (calculated as total damage / full length of fight).
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Originally Posted by Graul
We raid with 2 Resto, 1 Enhancement. The tank group always gets one of the Shamans, and it's a lot better for threat than it is boosting a second caster group minorly. Normally we have 2 Hunters, but often only one and they almost always end up with a Shadow Priest when we have three. And according to the spreadsheet, the Rogue lost 115 DPS when UR and the other 146 or so AP was removed. That might be a higher figure with better gear, but then isn't it safe to assume that 5% crit is going to scale as well? Our typical tank group is: Warrior/Warrior/Feral Druid/Resto Druid/Resto Shaman or Warrior/Warlock/Feral Druid/Resto Shaman/Resto Druid
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Originally Posted by dr_AllCOM3
I always thought there could be done more. I do ~1300 DPS with 33/28 (if I get WF
) and to outweight the debuff I'd have to do over 1600 DPS as DW Fury. Maybe it's your gear, quite low for Teron .Or short: HS at a low priority whenever possible. |
Anyway Quixotic posted a report of himself doing 1936dps(but he's got the Warglaives, and better gear).
Edited onPatch 2.2.3
|
Originally Posted by dr_AllCOM3
Maybe it's your gear, quite low for Teron
.. |
| Anyways if you want to improve raid dps, move your resto shaman, if you want to improve personal dps keep the feral druid =) |
Warrior
Warrior
Resto Shaman
Resto Druid
Feral Druid (or Warlock)
Paladin
Paladin
Paladin
Holy Priest
Shadow Priest
Mage
Mage
Shadow Priest
Resto Shaman
Mage (or Destro Lock)
Enh Shaman
Rogue
Rogue
Feral Druid (or Rogue)
Warrior
Hunter
Hunter
Shadow Priest
Warlock
Holy Priest
Going over our last Teron kill, it shows that Windfury played a near insignificant role, but we also had a Prot Warrior in DPS gear in that same group as well.
Last edited by Graul : 11/02/07 at 12:07 PM.
My work with the spreadsheet shows that, for me as 17/44
The T6 shoulders is the best piece in the set. It is the only piece in the set that is the best of slot gear. If you are dead set on the 2 piece bonus, the chest would be the 2nd best piece.
The T6 shoulders is the best piece in the set. It is the only piece in the set that is the best of slot gear. If you are dead set on the 2 piece bonus, the chest would be the 2nd best piece.
|
Originally Posted by Graul
So where exactly would this Resto Shaman go that would actually make a bigger impact on raid performance? Our typical raid looks like this:
Warrior Warrior Resto Shaman Resto Druid Feral Druid (or Warlock) Hunter Hunter Shadow Priest Warlock Holy Priest Going over our last Teron kill, it shows that Windfury played a near insignificant role, but we also had a Prot Warrior in DPS gear in that same group as well. |
This is a bit of a derail to the thread, but anyway. If you really want to increase your MT's TPS, start looking into heal threat also. ES and PoM that starts off the MT accumulate to a lot of threat.
Hey,
Sorry to have to ask this here, but I've been messing with the Warrior spread sheet for a while now, and I'm having a bitch of a time with it. It keeps telling me there is a circular arguement, and I really cant figure out how to fix it. I have both the items and the spreadsheet on my desktop, and most of it seems to be working correctly. However the cycle and dps just never are right, and I keep gettign that error.
Sorry to have to ask this here, but I've been messing with the Warrior spread sheet for a while now, and I'm having a bitch of a time with it. It keeps telling me there is a circular arguement, and I really cant figure out how to fix it. I have both the items and the spreadsheet on my desktop, and most of it seems to be working correctly. However the cycle and dps just never are right, and I keep gettign that error.
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Originally Posted by Graul
So where exactly would this Resto Shaman go that would actually make a bigger impact on raid performance? Our typical raid looks like this:
|
I'm more confused as to why you don't have a paladin in the MT group, devotion aura is huge.
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Originally Posted by Graul
I really don't see where you are getting this. It's virtually the best gear stat wise that has dropped up to this point. Once [Unstoppable Aggressor's Ring], [Leggings of Divine Retribution] and [Grips of Silent Justice] drop, I'll be sure to pick them up. This was also our second Teron kill. I am truly dubious about Warriors in guilds that have only killed him once are putting out 1700+ DPS. Maybe if you had said it's quite low for a guild farming BT, I'd agree.
So where exactly would this Resto Shaman go that would actually make a bigger impact on raid performance? Our typical raid looks like this: Warrior Warrior Resto Shaman Resto Druid Feral Druid (or Warlock) Paladin Paladin Paladin Holy Priest Shadow Priest Mage Mage Shadow Priest Resto Shaman Mage (or Destro Lock) Enh Shaman Rogue Rogue Feral Druid (or Rogue) Warrior Hunter Hunter Shadow Priest Warlock Holy Priest Going over our last Teron kill, it shows that Windfury played a near insignificant role, but we also had a Prot Warrior in DPS gear in that same group as well. |
in g1 for an affliction lock from g5.
A lot of people seem to be assuming that Onslaught is poor fury gear. Initially this was my reaction too, all the pieces have a ton of stamina, they all have agility instead of crit rating. Relatively high +Hit levels can still be obtained while wearing four pieces of Onslaught, items like Madness of the Betrayer do a lot to make that possible. Both set bonuses on the Onslaught set are decent, especially compared to some previous bonuses.
Frankly I don't know what the best gear set up is, but I don't think its wise to just write off Onslaught without some real game play experience.
Frankly I don't know what the best gear set up is, but I don't think its wise to just write off Onslaught without some real game play experience.
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Originally Posted by Geneticc
Actually, spreadsheet for me shows onslaught chest/shoulders with 3/3 precision and no imp execute as 23 more dps than midnight chestguard/blood-stained shoulders with 1/3 precision and 2/2 imp execute. interesting indeed
thoughts on this? |
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Originally Posted by Opalira
A lot of people seem to be assuming that Onslaught is poor fury gear.
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Originally Posted by Graul
I don't understand why you aren't comparing both gear setups to the same talent spec. Precision is better than Imp Execute in either setup.
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i had a reason, and now i forgot. that was stupid of me, i apologize lol. anyway, i just plugged it in and its 20more dps with 2 piece onslaught ( chest and shoulders) than blood-stained and midnight chestguard. All this time ive been passing both chest and shoulders, crap
.edit: that was the same spec btw =p
Assuming +10 str gems in all slots for the sake of simplicity, and I'm sure it gets more complex(Midnight chest having AP vs Str, socket bonuses, metas, etc) but here's a basic break-down.
Helm of the Illidari Shatterer vs Onslaught Battle-Helm
.70% Crit/2.09% Hit vs 7 Str/-109 Armor Pen
Midnight Chestguard vs Onslaught Breastplate
.96% Crit/.80% Hit vs 11 AP/126 armor pen
Grips of Silent Justice vs Onslaught Gauntlets
9 Str/.93% Hit/-84 Armor Ignore vs 1% Crit
Legguards of Endless Rage vs Onslaught Greaves
.85% Crit/.31% Hit vs 2 str/105 Armor Ignore.
Blood-stained Pauldrons vs Onslaught Shoulderblades
.28% Crit/1.42% Hit vs 12 str/91 Armor Ignore.
Total
1.79 Crit/5.55% Hit vs 12 str/11AP/353 Armor Ignore
Helm of the Illidari Shatterer vs Onslaught Battle-Helm
.70% Crit/2.09% Hit vs 7 Str/-109 Armor Pen
Midnight Chestguard vs Onslaught Breastplate
.96% Crit/.80% Hit vs 11 AP/126 armor pen
Grips of Silent Justice vs Onslaught Gauntlets
9 Str/.93% Hit/-84 Armor Ignore vs 1% Crit
Legguards of Endless Rage vs Onslaught Greaves
.85% Crit/.31% Hit vs 2 str/105 Armor Ignore.
Blood-stained Pauldrons vs Onslaught Shoulderblades
.28% Crit/1.42% Hit vs 12 str/91 Armor Ignore.
Total
1.79 Crit/5.55% Hit vs 12 str/11AP/353 Armor Ignore
Edited onPatch 2.2.3
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Originally Posted by Enkidu
A few things Graul, firstly you should stop using Hamstring really, it's no longer needed. From your relatively low HS/Cleave usage while you were still using Berserker Rage (should use it as much as possible in that fight) it seems you were threat capped? You took enough damage to have near endless rage for the most part.
It should be pretty easy for a decently geared warrior (at that point) just hitting Teron to see 1400-1500 DPS but it requires heavier HS usage and more intelligent BR usage, a lot of the mileage for a lot of warriors depends on their tanks also for this tank and spank, I found myslef threat cap at Teron on almost all kills, mostly during the first 30% and the last 20% and that was with our tank doing ~900-980 TPS for the most part and at times even with TA. Also, if you're interested in getting CoR more often you could pick up Imp.DS instead of UW, that would make it almost a wash even for learning encounters where you want to maximize tank survivability such as early Teron kills, aswell as giving yourself more threat leeway thanks to freeing up some GCD time for him. I have raided without UW for a short while and as long as you have a Shaman it's hardly noticeable. Edit: Why was your execute crit rate so low? When did you use Recklessness? |
Wow Web Stats
We also had the groups setup slightly different and I suggested we don't even bother trying to use any kind of Bloodlust rotation for the melee group (was used last week) and to just use it at the start in the tank/OT (doing DPS) group for a decent threat lead. We also had a Feral in the melee group this week, last week it was a third Rogue. I think from now on though any time we have three Rogues, the third will go into the tank group. They will still get totems and a Sapphired BS, but the Feral in the melee adds more overall raid DPS, even if that one Rogue is doing slightly less.
Last edited by Graul : 11/02/07 at 1:50 AM.
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Originally Posted by Emeraude
Assuming +10 str gems in all slots for the sake of simplicity, and I'm sure it gets more complex(Midnight chest having AP vs Str, socket bonuses, metas, etc) but here's a basic break-down.
Helm of the Illidari Shatterer vs Onslaught Battle-Helm .70% Crit/2.09% Hit vs 7 Str/-109 Armor Pen Midnight Chestguard vs Onslaught Breastplate .96% Crit/.80% Hit vs 11 AP/126 armor pen Grips of Silent Justice vs Onslaught Gauntlets 9 Str/.93% Hit/-84 Armor Ignore vs 1% Crit Legguards of Endless Rage vs Onslaught Greaves .85% Crit/.31% Hit vs 2 str/105 Armor Ignore. Blood-stained Pauldrons vs Onslaught Shoulderblades .28% Crit/1.42% Hit vs 12 str/91 Armor Ignore. Total 1.79 Crit/5.55% Hit vs 12 str/11AP/353 Armor Ignore |
Using this setup will give me more AP and more armor penetration, at the cost of hit and crit. Hit at high levels of gear only helps white hits, as I have enough rage to virtually spam HS the entire fight.
Very nicely done Graul. Personally we've always ran 3 rogues/sham/warr (sapphire trinket). The only encounter we currently put a feral in the DPS group is RoS but that's more for IMP LoTP heals than anything. Then again we don't usually see more than 2 shamans so they're more likely to go in the melee/caster groups, and that is the main reason.
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Originally Posted by Quixotic
Using all 5 pieces of T6 is somewhat silly. For the item slots that T6 covers I plan on getting [Cursed Vision of Sargeras],[Onslaught Shoulderblades], [Onslaught Breastplate], [Grips of Silent Justice], and [Leggings of Divine Retribution].
Using this setup will give me more AP and more armor penetration, at the cost of hit and crit. Hit at high levels of gear only helps white hits, as I have enough rage to virtually spam HS the entire fight. |
Need to post some WWS for us sometimes, I'm curious how a Warrior performs in a raid environment with them(Warglaives).
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Originally Posted by Quixotic
Using all 5 pieces of T6 is somewhat silly. For the item slots that T6 covers I plan on getting [Cursed Vision of Sargeras],[Onslaught Shoulderblades], [Onslaught Breastplate], [Grips of Silent Justice], and [Leggings of Divine Retribution].
Using this setup will give me more AP and more armor penetration, at the cost of hit and crit. Hit at high levels of gear only helps white hits, as I have enough rage to virtually spam HS the entire fight. |
Many guilds won't allow it, at least for the first drops.|
Originally Posted by Danath
It indeed looks like that helm has better overall stats in comparison to the Helm of the Illidari Shatterer; but, will you be able to steal it from rogues?
Many guilds won't allow it, at least for the first drops. |
| Very nicely done Graul. Personally we've always ran 3 rogues/sham/warr (sapphire trinket). |
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Originally Posted by Graul
Whenever we have three Rogues, they are all usually in the melee group, with the Feral in the tank group. Going through the Rogue spreadsheet and entering the current stats of all of our Rogues shows the overall raid DPS is a bit higher when you put the Feral in the melee group and the off Rogue goes into the tank group where they still at least get Shaman totems and non improved BS. That single Rogue is going to lose around 115 personal DPS, but the melee group more than makes up for it. The only time I can see it being more beneficial to keep the Feral in the tank group is for threat sensitive fights.
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Basically putting a resto shaman into the tank group is a wasted spot in my opinion (unless you raid with 4 shamans all the time). You can decide between either making air/tide totem useless for 50% of a group or crippling a rogue with only battleshout (not to forget that 10% AP is HUGE in high end gear, so I doubt our rogues would only lose 115 dps). The only time our tank group has a shaman is in extra threat sensitive fights like RoS.
I did not run any numbers, but I bet best use of those two classes would probably be in a 3x BM Hunter + resto shaman + feral druid group. There is only one class which cannot utilize tide or air totem in this group and the synergy between 3 beastmaster hunters and a feral druid should be far better than any other combination I can think of =)
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Originally Posted by Quixotic
Using all 5 pieces of T6 is somewhat silly. For the item slots that T6 covers I plan on getting [Cursed Vision of Sargeras],[Onslaught Shoulderblades], [Onslaught Breastplate], [Grips of Silent Justice], and [Leggings of Divine Retribution].
Using this setup will give me more AP and more armor penetration, at the cost of hit and crit. Hit at high levels of gear only helps white hits, as I have enough rage to virtually spam HS the entire fight. |
How does the spreadsheet handle that anyway? I wish it had an option for "HS spam" or something. Or does it already assume you have enough rage at a certain gear/buff level? I could ask in the other thread I suppose, but it seems relevant here if anyone knows.
Edited onPatch 2.2.3
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Originally Posted by D4vE
With how many shamans do you raid?
Basically putting a resto shaman into the tank group is a wasted spot in my opinion (unless you raid with 4 shamans all the time). You can decide between either making air/tide totem useless for 50% of a group or crippling a rogue with only battleshout (not to forget that 10% AP is HUGE in high end gear, so I doubt our rogues would only lose 115 dps). The only time our tank group has a shaman is in extra threat sensitive fights like RoS. I did not run any numbers, but I bet best use of those two classes would probably be in a 3x BM Hunter + resto shaman + feral druid group. There is only one class which cannot utilize tide or air totem in this group and the synergy between 3 beastmaster hunters and a feral druid should be far better than any other combination I can think of =) |
Last edited by Graul : 11/02/07 at 10:14 AM.
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Originally Posted by Maskirovka
How does the spreadsheet handle that anyway? I wish it had an option for "HS spam" or something. Or does it already assume you have enough rage at a certain gear/buff level? I could ask in the other thread I suppose, but it seems relevant here if anyone knows.
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Originally Posted by Graul
So, I think I've been able to make an improvement this week after a full night of "Ghost learning".
Wow Web Stats [...] |
) and to outweight the debuff I'd have to do over 1600 DPS as DW Fury. Maybe it's your gear, quite low for Teron .|
Originally Posted by Gruntle
The spreadsheet is more advanced than that. It calculates the dps for a number of cycles (18 sec 3BT/2WW is in principle always the best one even though others are calculated as well). For each of these cycles it computes the full rage generation, minus the cost of the abilities (including shout and Rampage), the remaining rage can be used to spam HS/Cleave. Depending on how much extra rage you generate you get a certain number of HS per cycle (in my pre-kara/kara gear I get around 2 HS per cycle). The total dps from the sheet is then white+cycle (incl HS) + execute phase damage (calculated as total damage / full length of fight).
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Originally Posted by Graul
We raid with 2 Resto, 1 Enhancement. The tank group always gets one of the Shamans, and it's a lot better for threat than it is boosting a second caster group minorly. Normally we have 2 Hunters, but often only one and they almost always end up with a Shadow Priest when we have three. And according to the spreadsheet, the Rogue lost 115 DPS when UR and the other 146 or so AP was removed. That might be a higher figure with better gear, but then isn't it safe to assume that 5% crit is going to scale as well? Our typical tank group is: Warrior/Warrior/Feral Druid/Resto Druid/Resto Shaman or Warrior/Warlock/Feral Druid/Resto Shaman/Resto Druid
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Originally Posted by dr_AllCOM3
I always thought there could be done more. I do ~1300 DPS with 33/28 (if I get WF
) and to outweight the debuff I'd have to do over 1600 DPS as DW Fury. Maybe it's your gear, quite low for Teron .Or short: HS at a low priority whenever possible. |
Anyway Quixotic posted a report of himself doing 1936dps(but he's got the Warglaives, and better gear).
Edited onPatch 2.2.3
|
Originally Posted by dr_AllCOM3
Maybe it's your gear, quite low for Teron
.. |
| Anyways if you want to improve raid dps, move your resto shaman, if you want to improve personal dps keep the feral druid =) |
Warrior
Warrior
Resto Shaman
Resto Druid
Feral Druid (or Warlock)
Paladin
Paladin
Paladin
Holy Priest
Shadow Priest
Mage
Mage
Shadow Priest
Resto Shaman
Mage (or Destro Lock)
Enh Shaman
Rogue
Rogue
Feral Druid (or Rogue)
Warrior
Hunter
Hunter
Shadow Priest
Warlock
Holy Priest
Going over our last Teron kill, it shows that Windfury played a near insignificant role, but we also had a Prot Warrior in DPS gear in that same group as well.
Last edited by Graul : 11/02/07 at 12:07 PM.
My work with the spreadsheet shows that, for me as 17/44
The T6 shoulders is the best piece in the set. It is the only piece in the set that is the best of slot gear. If you are dead set on the 2 piece bonus, the chest would be the 2nd best piece.
The T6 shoulders is the best piece in the set. It is the only piece in the set that is the best of slot gear. If you are dead set on the 2 piece bonus, the chest would be the 2nd best piece.
|
Originally Posted by Graul
So where exactly would this Resto Shaman go that would actually make a bigger impact on raid performance? Our typical raid looks like this:
Warrior Warrior Resto Shaman Resto Druid Feral Druid (or Warlock) Hunter Hunter Shadow Priest Warlock Holy Priest Going over our last Teron kill, it shows that Windfury played a near insignificant role, but we also had a Prot Warrior in DPS gear in that same group as well. |
This is a bit of a derail to the thread, but anyway. If you really want to increase your MT's TPS, start looking into heal threat also. ES and PoM that starts off the MT accumulate to a lot of threat.
Hey,
Sorry to have to ask this here, but I've been messing with the Warrior spread sheet for a while now, and I'm having a bitch of a time with it. It keeps telling me there is a circular arguement, and I really cant figure out how to fix it. I have both the items and the spreadsheet on my desktop, and most of it seems to be working correctly. However the cycle and dps just never are right, and I keep gettign that error.
Sorry to have to ask this here, but I've been messing with the Warrior spread sheet for a while now, and I'm having a bitch of a time with it. It keeps telling me there is a circular arguement, and I really cant figure out how to fix it. I have both the items and the spreadsheet on my desktop, and most of it seems to be working correctly. However the cycle and dps just never are right, and I keep gettign that error.
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Originally Posted by Graul
So where exactly would this Resto Shaman go that would actually make a bigger impact on raid performance? Our typical raid looks like this:
|
I'm more confused as to why you don't have a paladin in the MT group, devotion aura is huge.
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Originally Posted by Graul
I really don't see where you are getting this. It's virtually the best gear stat wise that has dropped up to this point. Once [Unstoppable Aggressor's Ring], [Leggings of Divine Retribution] and [Grips of Silent Justice] drop, I'll be sure to pick them up. This was also our second Teron kill. I am truly dubious about Warriors in guilds that have only killed him once are putting out 1700+ DPS. Maybe if you had said it's quite low for a guild farming BT, I'd agree.
So where exactly would this Resto Shaman go that would actually make a bigger impact on raid performance? Our typical raid looks like this: Warrior Warrior Resto Shaman Resto Druid Feral Druid (or Warlock) Paladin Paladin Paladin Holy Priest Shadow Priest Mage Mage Shadow Priest Resto Shaman Mage (or Destro Lock) Enh Shaman Rogue Rogue Feral Druid (or Rogue) Warrior Hunter Hunter Shadow Priest Warlock Holy Priest Going over our last Teron kill, it shows that Windfury played a near insignificant role, but we also had a Prot Warrior in DPS gear in that same group as well. |
in g1 for an affliction lock from g5.
Is the ToL buff not really needed?
We haven't had a tree for months, and even when we did we never put it in the tank group for any reason. I don't think it's worth losing the other benefits. I'm sure a few people will end up posting "but what about on blah fight for blah group blablabla", but generally it's useless. But anyway...ya derail
I wouldn't say it's useless, the problem is just that there's better support for the main tank like Imp, Devotion Aura, Windfury/Grace of Air and you generally have more than one tank.
ToL aura is very nice to have on single tank fights like Azgalor, but you can do without it on normal stuff. Imp, devo aura, and your other tanks are usually better in the group.
Hi,
seeing the offline TPS webpage based on a WWS parse gave me an idea about a kind of "rate my DPS skill" page that would bring you a result about the way you play your warrior. It could be usefull to know what has to be changed and improved to increase your DPS depending only on your skill. I don't know how to build this in html/xml or so, but I can write what I've got in mind :
- the use of cooldowned attacks (Bloodthirst / Mortal Strike and Whirlwind) : rate the fact that the attack is done as soon as possible or delayed due to many reasons
- the uptime of BattleShout and Rampage : always up or many downtime (especially Rampage that has to be refreshed during the main attacks cooldown) ?
- the use of Slam : just after a white hit or really delayed ?
- the use of Heroic Strike : to many HS leading to rage problems ? (delayed cooldowned attacks etc.)
It could also give informations about flurry uptime ("should I still raise my crit rating" etc.) and Rage generation on time ("Was I often wasting Rage - over 100 - or did I lack rage - often below 30 -" etc.
Does it sounds interesting or totally useless ?
seeing the offline TPS webpage based on a WWS parse gave me an idea about a kind of "rate my DPS skill" page that would bring you a result about the way you play your warrior. It could be usefull to know what has to be changed and improved to increase your DPS depending only on your skill. I don't know how to build this in html/xml or so, but I can write what I've got in mind :
- the use of cooldowned attacks (Bloodthirst / Mortal Strike and Whirlwind) : rate the fact that the attack is done as soon as possible or delayed due to many reasons
- the uptime of BattleShout and Rampage : always up or many downtime (especially Rampage that has to be refreshed during the main attacks cooldown) ?
- the use of Slam : just after a white hit or really delayed ?
- the use of Heroic Strike : to many HS leading to rage problems ? (delayed cooldowned attacks etc.)
It could also give informations about flurry uptime ("should I still raise my crit rating" etc.) and Rage generation on time ("Was I often wasting Rage - over 100 - or did I lack rage - often below 30 -" etc.
Does it sounds interesting or totally useless ?
This would be quite interesting - especially the slam timing 
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Originally Posted by Ondskapt
Hi,
seeing the offline TPS webpage based on a WWS parse gave me an idea about a kind of "rate my DPS skill" page that would bring you a result about the way you play your warrior. It could be usefull to know what has to be changed and improved to increase your DPS depending only on your skill. I don't know how to build this in html/xml or so, but I can write what I've got in mind : - the use of cooldowned attacks (Bloodthirst / Mortal Strike and Whirlwind) : rate the fact that the attack is done as soon as possible or delayed due to many reasons - the uptime of BattleShout and Rampage : always up or many downtime (especially Rampage that has to be refreshed during the main attacks cooldown) ? - the use of Slam : just after a white hit or really delayed ? - the use of Heroic Strike : to many HS leading to rage problems ? (delayed cooldowned attacks etc.) It could also give informations about flurry uptime ("should I still raise my crit rating" etc.) and Rage generation on time ("Was I often wasting Rage - over 100 - or did I lack rage - often below 30 -" etc. Does it sounds interesting or totally useless ? |
That would be great Ondskapt, I know I would use it at least 
Why was Deathwish moves to Arms?
41 pages of responses there and still nothing more from Blizzard beyond the laughable initial response of
41 pages of responses there and still nothing more from Blizzard beyond the laughable initial response of
| Some warriors felt forced to pickup certain talents and this left them with few options. This change could allow people in these situations to have some extra options while the weapon expertise and threat reduction improvements to the deep end of the fury tree allow for more consistent sustained damage. |
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Originally Posted by Hozz
Why was Deathwish moves to Arms?
41 pages of responses there and still nothing more from Blizzard beyond the laughable initial response of |
|
Originally Posted by Hozz
Why was Deathwish moves to Arms?
41 pages of responses there and still nothing more from Blizzard beyond the laughable initial response of |
|
Originally Posted by Rhaeti
Yeah, I hope it doesn't go through.
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Edited onPatch 2.2.3
Blah, was going for Cynical, and got an infraction. >_<
Last edited by Emeraude : 11/07/07 at 12:43 AM.
Humans and Orc's have had the racials changed on the ptr today.
We have expertise rating again not 1% crit chance for swords,maces(humans) and axes for orcs.
I went on and i had 10 expertise reducing my chance to dodge/parry attacks by 2.50% in addition to my -2% from weapon mastery.
We have expertise rating again not 1% crit chance for swords,maces(humans) and axes for orcs.
I went on and i had 10 expertise reducing my chance to dodge/parry attacks by 2.50% in addition to my -2% from weapon mastery.
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Originally Posted by ckaparos
Humans and Orc's have had the racials changed on the ptr today.
We have expertise rating again not 1% crit chance for swords,maces(humans) and axes for orcs. I went on and i had 10 expertise reducing my chance to dodge/parry attacks by 2.50% in addition to my -2% from weapon mastery. |
That looks pretty damn awesome to me tbh.
Apparently on PTR dualwielding a sword and a mace as a human you currently get 10 expertise.
Most likely a bug, I guess. Would be totally awesome otherwise, though. Season 3 mace/sword combo would rock.
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Originally Posted by Zalein
Most likely a bug, I guess. Would be totally awesome otherwise, though. Season 3 mace/sword combo would rock.
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Does seem to be a bug, however using the old weapon skill stat you would get both +5 for swords and maces but they obviously didn't stack as they were different weapon types. Perhaps now they're all lumped under Expertise, you get both benefits from mace and swords as its the same type of skill rating. Would be a nice little buff.
While were on the topic, how much dodge and parry does a raid boss have? Is it worth stacking expertise in decent amounts?
While were on the topic, how much dodge and parry does a raid boss have? Is it worth stacking expertise in decent amounts?
5% dodge afaik, parries are off the table if you're hitting from behind, obviously, so 5% expertise should push dodges off completely which is just so sexeh.
I think its said 1 expertise rating is equal to .25% of reduced dodge and parry.
So as a human, a mace and a sword plus one other item with 10 expertise rating, pushes boss dodge of the table?
Say bosses had 5% parry aswell for example, would having 20 expertise rating eliminate the need to be stood behind a boss?
So as a human, a mace and a sword plus one other item with 10 expertise rating, pushes boss dodge of the table?
Say bosses had 5% parry aswell for example, would having 20 expertise rating eliminate the need to be stood behind a boss?
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Originally Posted by Ondskapt
Hi,
seeing the offline TPS webpage based on a WWS parse gave me an idea about a kind of "rate my DPS skill" page that would bring you a result about the way you play your warrior. It could be usefull to know what has to be changed and improved to increase your DPS depending only on your skill. I don't know how to build this in html/xml or so, but I can write what I've got in mind |
Btw, dodges are something between 5 and 6.5% percent, according to the weapon skill thread here. And parries between 10 and 12%. Due to the difference, you probably will keep on hitting from behind - too much expertise, for a DPS warrior, to hit the parry cap. Good for tanks tho, human warriors get 11 expertise from the start.
A quick question;
If whirlwind now hits with both weapons can we assume the following;
Weapon enchants on the offhand will proc more often. (Potentially making the 20 str enchant inferior to proc based ones like mongoose)
The offhand weapon can individually crit, thereby increasing flurry, deep wounds etc.
The offhand, if its a sword, has a chance of getting an extra attack through sword spec when using whirlwind.
Thanks in advance.
If whirlwind now hits with both weapons can we assume the following;
Weapon enchants on the offhand will proc more often. (Potentially making the 20 str enchant inferior to proc based ones like mongoose)
The offhand weapon can individually crit, thereby increasing flurry, deep wounds etc.
The offhand, if its a sword, has a chance of getting an extra attack through sword spec when using whirlwind.
Thanks in advance.
I just picked up the Grips of Silent Justice and i was wondering how ignore armor affects damage done? Is there a maximum it can be reduced?
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Originally Posted by Achilleuss
I just picked up the Grips of Silent Justice and i was wondering how ignore armor affects damage done? Is there a maximum it can be reduced?
|
How it affects your damage done on a % base depends on the exsisting armor debuffs already on the target and how much ArP you have gathered.
Is the ToL buff not really needed?
We haven't had a tree for months, and even when we did we never put it in the tank group for any reason. I don't think it's worth losing the other benefits. I'm sure a few people will end up posting "but what about on blah fight for blah group blablabla", but generally it's useless. But anyway...ya derail
I wouldn't say it's useless, the problem is just that there's better support for the main tank like Imp, Devotion Aura, Windfury/Grace of Air and you generally have more than one tank.
ToL aura is very nice to have on single tank fights like Azgalor, but you can do without it on normal stuff. Imp, devo aura, and your other tanks are usually better in the group.
Hi,
seeing the offline TPS webpage based on a WWS parse gave me an idea about a kind of "rate my DPS skill" page that would bring you a result about the way you play your warrior. It could be usefull to know what has to be changed and improved to increase your DPS depending only on your skill. I don't know how to build this in html/xml or so, but I can write what I've got in mind :
- the use of cooldowned attacks (Bloodthirst / Mortal Strike and Whirlwind) : rate the fact that the attack is done as soon as possible or delayed due to many reasons
- the uptime of BattleShout and Rampage : always up or many downtime (especially Rampage that has to be refreshed during the main attacks cooldown) ?
- the use of Slam : just after a white hit or really delayed ?
- the use of Heroic Strike : to many HS leading to rage problems ? (delayed cooldowned attacks etc.)
It could also give informations about flurry uptime ("should I still raise my crit rating" etc.) and Rage generation on time ("Was I often wasting Rage - over 100 - or did I lack rage - often below 30 -" etc.
Does it sounds interesting or totally useless ?
seeing the offline TPS webpage based on a WWS parse gave me an idea about a kind of "rate my DPS skill" page that would bring you a result about the way you play your warrior. It could be usefull to know what has to be changed and improved to increase your DPS depending only on your skill. I don't know how to build this in html/xml or so, but I can write what I've got in mind :
- the use of cooldowned attacks (Bloodthirst / Mortal Strike and Whirlwind) : rate the fact that the attack is done as soon as possible or delayed due to many reasons
- the uptime of BattleShout and Rampage : always up or many downtime (especially Rampage that has to be refreshed during the main attacks cooldown) ?
- the use of Slam : just after a white hit or really delayed ?
- the use of Heroic Strike : to many HS leading to rage problems ? (delayed cooldowned attacks etc.)
It could also give informations about flurry uptime ("should I still raise my crit rating" etc.) and Rage generation on time ("Was I often wasting Rage - over 100 - or did I lack rage - often below 30 -" etc.
Does it sounds interesting or totally useless ?
This would be quite interesting - especially the slam timing
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Originally Posted by Ondskapt
Hi,
seeing the offline TPS webpage based on a WWS parse gave me an idea about a kind of "rate my DPS skill" page that would bring you a result about the way you play your warrior. It could be usefull to know what has to be changed and improved to increase your DPS depending only on your skill. I don't know how to build this in html/xml or so, but I can write what I've got in mind : - the use of cooldowned attacks (Bloodthirst / Mortal Strike and Whirlwind) : rate the fact that the attack is done as soon as possible or delayed due to many reasons - the uptime of BattleShout and Rampage : always up or many downtime (especially Rampage that has to be refreshed during the main attacks cooldown) ? - the use of Slam : just after a white hit or really delayed ? - the use of Heroic Strike : to many HS leading to rage problems ? (delayed cooldowned attacks etc.) It could also give informations about flurry uptime ("should I still raise my crit rating" etc.) and Rage generation on time ("Was I often wasting Rage - over 100 - or did I lack rage - often below 30 -" etc. Does it sounds interesting or totally useless ? |
That would be great Ondskapt, I know I would use it at least
Why was Deathwish moves to Arms?
41 pages of responses there and still nothing more from Blizzard beyond the laughable initial response of
41 pages of responses there and still nothing more from Blizzard beyond the laughable initial response of
| Some warriors felt forced to pickup certain talents and this left them with few options. This change could allow people in these situations to have some extra options while the weapon expertise and threat reduction improvements to the deep end of the fury tree allow for more consistent sustained damage. |
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Originally Posted by Hozz
Why was Deathwish moves to Arms?
41 pages of responses there and still nothing more from Blizzard beyond the laughable initial response of |
|
Originally Posted by Hozz
Why was Deathwish moves to Arms?
41 pages of responses there and still nothing more from Blizzard beyond the laughable initial response of |
|
Originally Posted by Rhaeti
Yeah, I hope it doesn't go through.
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Edited onPatch 2.2.3
Blah, was going for Cynical, and got an infraction. >_<
Last edited by Emeraude : 11/07/07 at 12:43 AM.
Humans and Orc's have had the racials changed on the ptr today.
We have expertise rating again not 1% crit chance for swords,maces(humans) and axes for orcs.
I went on and i had 10 expertise reducing my chance to dodge/parry attacks by 2.50% in addition to my -2% from weapon mastery.
We have expertise rating again not 1% crit chance for swords,maces(humans) and axes for orcs.
I went on and i had 10 expertise reducing my chance to dodge/parry attacks by 2.50% in addition to my -2% from weapon mastery.
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Originally Posted by ckaparos
Humans and Orc's have had the racials changed on the ptr today.
We have expertise rating again not 1% crit chance for swords,maces(humans) and axes for orcs. I went on and i had 10 expertise reducing my chance to dodge/parry attacks by 2.50% in addition to my -2% from weapon mastery. |
That looks pretty damn awesome to me tbh.
Apparently on PTR dualwielding a sword and a mace as a human you currently get 10 expertise.
Most likely a bug, I guess. Would be totally awesome otherwise, though. Season 3 mace/sword combo would rock.
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Originally Posted by Zalein
Most likely a bug, I guess. Would be totally awesome otherwise, though. Season 3 mace/sword combo would rock.
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Does seem to be a bug, however using the old weapon skill stat you would get both +5 for swords and maces but they obviously didn't stack as they were different weapon types. Perhaps now they're all lumped under Expertise, you get both benefits from mace and swords as its the same type of skill rating. Would be a nice little buff.
While were on the topic, how much dodge and parry does a raid boss have? Is it worth stacking expertise in decent amounts?
While were on the topic, how much dodge and parry does a raid boss have? Is it worth stacking expertise in decent amounts?
5% dodge afaik, parries are off the table if you're hitting from behind, obviously, so 5% expertise should push dodges off completely which is just so sexeh.
I think its said 1 expertise rating is equal to .25% of reduced dodge and parry.
So as a human, a mace and a sword plus one other item with 10 expertise rating, pushes boss dodge of the table?
Say bosses had 5% parry aswell for example, would having 20 expertise rating eliminate the need to be stood behind a boss?
So as a human, a mace and a sword plus one other item with 10 expertise rating, pushes boss dodge of the table?
Say bosses had 5% parry aswell for example, would having 20 expertise rating eliminate the need to be stood behind a boss?
|
Originally Posted by Ondskapt
Hi,
seeing the offline TPS webpage based on a WWS parse gave me an idea about a kind of "rate my DPS skill" page that would bring you a result about the way you play your warrior. It could be usefull to know what has to be changed and improved to increase your DPS depending only on your skill. I don't know how to build this in html/xml or so, but I can write what I've got in mind |
Btw, dodges are something between 5 and 6.5% percent, according to the weapon skill thread here. And parries between 10 and 12%. Due to the difference, you probably will keep on hitting from behind - too much expertise, for a DPS warrior, to hit the parry cap. Good for tanks tho, human warriors get 11 expertise from the start.
A quick question;
If whirlwind now hits with both weapons can we assume the following;
Weapon enchants on the offhand will proc more often. (Potentially making the 20 str enchant inferior to proc based ones like mongoose)
The offhand weapon can individually crit, thereby increasing flurry, deep wounds etc.
The offhand, if its a sword, has a chance of getting an extra attack through sword spec when using whirlwind.
Thanks in advance.
If whirlwind now hits with both weapons can we assume the following;
Weapon enchants on the offhand will proc more often. (Potentially making the 20 str enchant inferior to proc based ones like mongoose)
The offhand weapon can individually crit, thereby increasing flurry, deep wounds etc.
The offhand, if its a sword, has a chance of getting an extra attack through sword spec when using whirlwind.
Thanks in advance.
I just picked up the Grips of Silent Justice and i was wondering how ignore armor affects damage done? Is there a maximum it can be reduced?
|
Originally Posted by Achilleuss
I just picked up the Grips of Silent Justice and i was wondering how ignore armor affects damage done? Is there a maximum it can be reduced?
|
How it affects your damage done on a % base depends on the exsisting armor debuffs already on the target and how much ArP you have gathered.
Edited onPatch 2.2.3
Crits push out the hit from the table.
So for example:
0-28 Miss
29-34 Dodge
35-59 Glancing
60-79 Crit
80-100 Hit
Add 1% Crit and you get 60-80 Crit with 81-100 Hit
Any reduction in Dodges/Parries will increase the Hits.
Therefore a 5 Expertise would reduce Dodge by 1.25% which would then be added to the Hits.
So for example:
0-28 Miss
29-34 Dodge
35-59 Glancing
60-79 Crit
80-100 Hit
Add 1% Crit and you get 60-80 Crit with 81-100 Hit
Any reduction in Dodges/Parries will increase the Hits.
Therefore a 5 Expertise would reduce Dodge by 1.25% which would then be added to the Hits.
Last edited by Taruo : 11/08/07 at 1:29 PM.
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Originally Posted by Zegai
I doubt it. They probably said 4%, thought that was way too much (and probably is, for a 2 point talent), and changed it to 2%.
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Edited onPatch 2.2.3
ya, i was wondering that as well. Originally i was pissed about the removal of deathwish, but now i think that the -dodge and both weapons on ww will make up for it.
Last edited by Ediconegoen : 11/08/07 at 4:00 PM.
Edited onPatch 2.2.3
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Originally Posted by Machinator
The problem is that this talent and the WW change are expected to make up for the dps loss of Death Wish. I cant find the link but a blue post claimed that they saw a DPS increase in furry with these changes. How many people think this is true?
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Edit: To try and make this thought more concrete, some simple math for it. Assuming 500 lost DPS for the execute range Death Wish, 500 DPS x 30 seconds = 15,000 damage lost. Assuming an average length fight, you'd probably use Death Wish one other time before Executes, so maybe that one only loses you something in the range of 10,000 damage, to be conservative. So 25,000 damage lost to Death Wish going away. Assuming 1600 DPS total for the fight, and a 5 minute fight, 2% Dodge being removed is worth around 32 DPS. So 32 DPS x 300 seconds is 9600 damage. Assuming 5 Whirlwinds a minute, you're looking at 25 whirlwinds over a 5 minute fight, so you'd have to do 10,400 damage with 25 offhand hits, or 416 damage average hits with your offhand with WW to equal out the DW loss according to my quick napkin math, I guess. I suppose that puts things closer than I had expected.
Last edited by Davia : 11/08/07 at 4:18 PM.
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Originally Posted by Machinator
The problem is that this talent and the WW change are expected to make up for the dps loss of Death Wish. I cant find the link but a blue post claimed that they saw a DPS increase in furry with these changes. How many people think this is true?
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I don't know, the whirlwind change in particular seems to help offsetting the death wish loss. I still find the death wish trainable idea interesting, but I doubt that will happen any time soon.
I have a small and extremely incomplete simulator, might test somethings there after 2.3 to see how things change. I was looking a bit forward to finishing that up, but I'm really prot specced for good at the moment, and I'm not really sure I'll spec fury anytime soon - so I'd really do some work on the sim on spare time, with nothing better to do.
I have a small and extremely incomplete simulator, might test somethings there after 2.3 to see how things change. I was looking a bit forward to finishing that up, but I'm really prot specced for good at the moment, and I'm not really sure I'll spec fury anytime soon - so I'd really do some work on the sim on spare time, with nothing better to do.
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Originally Posted by Machinator
The problem is that this talent and the WW change are expected to make up for the dps loss of Death Wish. I cant find the link but a blue post claimed that they saw a DPS increase in furry with these changes. How many people think this is true?
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Blizzard's post about Fury damage in 2.3 was irritatingly vague. They claimed they saw a "significant damage increase" but didn't specify context. Do they mean more damage to bosses? Higher overall damage meter standing because Fury warriors can spam Sweeping Whirlwind/Cleave on trash pulls and pad their meter position? Farming?
I've been playing with the dps warrior spreadsheet, and assuming they make the 6 expertise from defiance work in berserker stance, the dps loss for picking up the prot talents seems to be all but negligible.
With my t4/t5/s2 level fury gear, and typical raid buffs for me, I got the following dps numbers:
No impale/anger management, no 6 expertise from defiance:
1260.6
With impale/anger management:
1304.7
With +6 expertise and no impale/anger management:
1276.5
So I'm looking at a 1-(1276.5/1304.7) = 2.2% decrease in dps compared to an optimal spec, to get defiance's threat for tanking, last stand, and imp shield block to become uncrushable if you have to tank anything higher level. Finally, no deep wounds eating a debuff slot.
Disadvantages: No imp tclap, no +5% parry.
With my t4/t5/s2 level fury gear, and typical raid buffs for me, I got the following dps numbers:
No impale/anger management, no 6 expertise from defiance:
1260.6
With impale/anger management:
1304.7
With +6 expertise and no impale/anger management:
1276.5
So I'm looking at a 1-(1276.5/1304.7) = 2.2% decrease in dps compared to an optimal spec, to get defiance's threat for tanking, last stand, and imp shield block to become uncrushable if you have to tank anything higher level. Finally, no deep wounds eating a debuff slot.
Disadvantages: No imp tclap, no +5% parry.
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Originally Posted by rayijin
Assuming they make the 6 expertise from defiance work in berserker stance.
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Originally Posted by Emeraude
It doesn't, it only works in def stance.
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Originally Posted by Davia
Unless it's a fight where you're looking at going from threat capped to generating far less threat with the change to Improved Berserker stance, there is absolutely no way this is true. The ability to leverage Death Wish + Execute + Haste Pot and maybe even a Heroism is what kept Fury dps competitive. No DW Executes is going to be a huge blow. I know that personally when I was Fury, at 19% if I popped a haste pot + Bloodlust Brooch + DW + Recklessness, I'd be pulling something on the order of 2500-3000 DPS for a short period, and this is going to nerf 500+ of that DPS for the duration of Death Wish.
Edit: To try and make this thought more concrete, some simple math for it. Assuming 500 lost DPS for the execute range Death Wish, 500 DPS x 30 seconds = 15,000 damage lost. Assuming an average length fight, you'd probably use Death Wish one other time before Executes, so maybe that one only loses you something in the range of 10,000 damage, to be conservative. So 25,000 damage lost to Death Wish going away. Assuming 1600 DPS total for the fight, and a 5 minute fight, 2% Dodge being removed is worth around 32 DPS. So 32 DPS x 300 seconds is 9600 damage. Assuming 5 Whirlwinds a minute, you're looking at 25 whirlwinds over a 5 minute fight, so you'd have to do 10,400 damage with 25 offhand hits, or 416 damage average hits with your offhand with WW to equal out the DW loss according to my quick napkin math, I guess. I suppose that puts things closer than I had expected. |
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Originally Posted by ckaparos
Don't forget we get weapon expertise as a human racial so add 1.25% less to parry/dodge on top of the 2% weapon mastery.
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I'm thinking of switching to a warrior for raiding. I have a 64 Tauren and could get my brothers 60 Orc (same last name).
My raid roll would be DPS/Offtanking. So here are my questions for the experts:
1. Is bloodfury enough of a dps increase (and safe enough) to use in a majority of boss encounters.
2. Are the end game axes on par with the other end game weapons for the expertise bonus?
3. Would the DPS game from the expertise cancel out using a non-optimal weapon?
4. Do you get the racial bonus if you use the weapon in your off hand?
My assumptions are that blood fury is 282 * 15/120 ap is you use it every cool down. I also am assuming that expertise will give you ~1.2% increase to dps.
I was planning on going hammer smith or ax smith to craft a weapon, so I should be using a crafted main hand until T6 level content. Seems like it's a choice of locking into axes for a marginal amount of dps (when using axes) and threat generation (with axes) at the expense of losing the hp bonus for tanking.
My raid roll would be DPS/Offtanking. So here are my questions for the experts:
1. Is bloodfury enough of a dps increase (and safe enough) to use in a majority of boss encounters.
2. Are the end game axes on par with the other end game weapons for the expertise bonus?
3. Would the DPS game from the expertise cancel out using a non-optimal weapon?
4. Do you get the racial bonus if you use the weapon in your off hand?
My assumptions are that blood fury is 282 * 15/120 ap is you use it every cool down. I also am assuming that expertise will give you ~1.2% increase to dps.
I was planning on going hammer smith or ax smith to craft a weapon, so I should be using a crafted main hand until T6 level content. Seems like it's a choice of locking into axes for a marginal amount of dps (when using axes) and threat generation (with axes) at the expense of losing the hp bonus for tanking.
| 1. Is bloodfury enough of a dps increase (and safe enough) to use in a majority of boss encounters. |
| 2. Are the end game axes on par with the other end game weapons for the expertise bonus? |
| 3. Would the DPS game from the expertise cancel out using a non-optimal weapon? |
| 4. Do you get the racial bonus if you use the weapon in your off hand? |
I just played around with several 100 dps weapon options. My guild just downed KT and has 3 bosses in MT and 2 in BT down.
I use Talon of Azhara and Talon of the Phoenix, it seems upgrades to those weapons are minimal even with a 100 dps weapon.
While I hope they lift the T6 -Stats on several items I find it disturbing that my full T5 bonus is more than competitive in terms of dmg, until I exchange more than 1 item (full T5 > Blood-stained Pauldrons).
I know the progression itemwise is only by small margins, but it's ridiculous if you compare T6 weapons to the S3 Weapons for example (excluding Illidan).
Syphon of the Nathrezim, Rising Tide,... it seems they are worse than my current weapon-setup. And the next upgrades are very small dmg-wise. Same goes for the +Haste items... Most of it is mediocre (at least that's what the Spreadsheets tells me
)
I use Talon of Azhara and Talon of the Phoenix, it seems upgrades to those weapons are minimal even with a 100 dps weapon.
While I hope they lift the T6 -Stats on several items I find it disturbing that my full T5 bonus is more than competitive in terms of dmg, until I exchange more than 1 item (full T5 > Blood-stained Pauldrons).
I know the progression itemwise is only by small margins, but it's ridiculous if you compare T6 weapons to the S3 Weapons for example (excluding Illidan).
Syphon of the Nathrezim, Rising Tide,... it seems they are worse than my current weapon-setup. And the next upgrades are very small dmg-wise. Same goes for the +Haste items... Most of it is mediocre (at least that's what the Spreadsheets tells me
)So Bloodfury is really too situational to rely on and the best weapons are usually not axes (PVE) negating using the expertise bonus.
I think I'll stick with Tauren for when I am called on to tank.
I think I'll stick with Tauren for when I am called on to tank.
I find it very difficult to use Blood fury on any meaningful encounter. Generally when we are pushing content i don't want to give the raid healers any more stress than necessary. Deathwish is often bad enough.
I may occasionally use it when DW is on cooldown and there is some sort of vulnerability phase a la Leotheras.
As for axes, i use the Wicked Edge and the S2 offhand. Since i don't really arena to any level where i am likely to reach the personal rating necessary, i will probably pick up a Rising Tide on the assumption that it will get buffed enough at some point to make it better than my current axe. Plus it's slow and therefore can take more advantage of the new WW change.
I may occasionally use it when DW is on cooldown and there is some sort of vulnerability phase a la Leotheras.
As for axes, i use the Wicked Edge and the S2 offhand. Since i don't really arena to any level where i am likely to reach the personal rating necessary, i will probably pick up a Rising Tide on the assumption that it will get buffed enough at some point to make it better than my current axe. Plus it's slow and therefore can take more advantage of the new WW change.
Does anyone know if [Dory's Embrace] will beat [Cloak of Darkness] for dps? There's a non-trivial drop in AP/crit going to Dory's, but I'm not quite sure how to value armor penetration.
I currently have 0 armor pen without dory's, it's rated as a 1.1 dps increase compared to cloak of darkness with a +10 crit gem (via the dps warrior spreadsheet).
With more armor penetration, it'd be even better.
With more armor penetration, it'd be even better.
Fang of Vashj
Im seeing a huge increase in DPS over slow offhands on the newest dps sheet with the fang of vashj almost 25 dps over the talon of ashara. I can only guess it is due to the Expertise. Has anyone else noticed this it seems to fly in the face of the new WW mechanic
I have long said that the damage gained by WW from 2 slow weapons will be evened out in other areas if you happen to use a fast weapon. WW isn't going to suddenly become 20+% of your damage just from the change. Chances are most people will see a 4-5% increase in damage from the change to their Whirlwind damage regardless of rather you use a fast or slow weapon. I have always been on to think that the DPS on a weapon is by far more important than the speed of the weapon.
Is anyone thinking of of a 17-41-3 build? Lose some dps (probably from DW spec) but if the added threat is solid, it might make off-tanking in raids, ZA and heroic dailies a little easier.
Anyone model any numbers on this, and what the optimum 41 in Fury would be?
Anyone model any numbers on this, and what the optimum 41 in Fury would be?
Edited onPatch 2.2.3
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Originally Posted by Grizlock
So Bloodfury is really too situational to rely on and the best weapons are usually not axes (PVE) negating using the expertise bonus.
I think I'll stick with Tauren for when I am called on to tank. |
| I have long said that the damage gained by WW from 2 slow weapons will be evened out in other areas if you happen to use a fast weapon. WW isn't going to suddenly become 20+% of your damage just from the change. Chances are most people will see a 4-5% increase in damage from the change to their Whirlwind damage regardless of rather you use a fast or slow weapon. I have always been on to think that the DPS on a weapon is by far more important than the speed of the weapon. |
Season 2 1.5 Axe adds 51.84 DPS
Season 2 2.6 Axe adds 59.27 DPS
Not a large gain, but still a gain using the same listed DPS of varying speed. Maybe sharpening stones lower the gap even further.
Last edited by Graul : 11/09/07 at 11:48 PM.
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Just an example with 3500 AP and 1 in Imp WW. Season 2 1.5 Axe adds 51.84 DPS Season 2 2.6 Axe adds 59.27 DPS Not a large gain, but still a gain using the same listed DPS of varying speed. Maybe sharpening stones lower the gap even further. |
I keep my Vashj dagger for my aggro-def equip but otherwise I'll use my two talons(phoenix/aszhara) from now on.
It's sad though that fast weapons will now be ignored by most warrior raiders if the overall dps stats can't outweigh their current setup.
Looks like shamans will have a hard time getting slow 1h-weapons from now on.
Well the thing the spreadsheet cant simulate is luck. If you DW 2.7+ and get a pair of misses you can lose a GCD. With a fast weapon its less of a problem and you can get away with less hit and stack a bit more on ap/crit. This may not be true at all gear levels/encounters as sometimes you have more rage than you know what to do with.
Semi-related: Is anyone to the point where the number of HS you can do is limited by MH speed rather than rage?
Semi-related: Is anyone to the point where the number of HS you can do is limited by MH speed rather than rage?
Edited onPatch 2.2.3
Crits push out the hit from the table.
So for example:
0-28 Miss
29-34 Dodge
35-59 Glancing
60-79 Crit
80-100 Hit
Add 1% Crit and you get 60-80 Crit with 81-100 Hit
Any reduction in Dodges/Parries will increase the Hits.
Therefore a 5 Expertise would reduce Dodge by 1.25% which would then be added to the Hits.
So for example:
0-28 Miss
29-34 Dodge
35-59 Glancing
60-79 Crit
80-100 Hit
Add 1% Crit and you get 60-80 Crit with 81-100 Hit
Any reduction in Dodges/Parries will increase the Hits.
Therefore a 5 Expertise would reduce Dodge by 1.25% which would then be added to the Hits.
Last edited by Taruo : 11/08/07 at 1:29 PM.
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Originally Posted by Zegai
I doubt it. They probably said 4%, thought that was way too much (and probably is, for a 2 point talent), and changed it to 2%.
|
Edited onPatch 2.2.3
ya, i was wondering that as well. Originally i was pissed about the removal of deathwish, but now i think that the -dodge and both weapons on ww will make up for it.
Last edited by Ediconegoen : 11/08/07 at 4:00 PM.
Edited onPatch 2.2.3
|
Originally Posted by Machinator
The problem is that this talent and the WW change are expected to make up for the dps loss of Death Wish. I cant find the link but a blue post claimed that they saw a DPS increase in furry with these changes. How many people think this is true?
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Edit: To try and make this thought more concrete, some simple math for it. Assuming 500 lost DPS for the execute range Death Wish, 500 DPS x 30 seconds = 15,000 damage lost. Assuming an average length fight, you'd probably use Death Wish one other time before Executes, so maybe that one only loses you something in the range of 10,000 damage, to be conservative. So 25,000 damage lost to Death Wish going away. Assuming 1600 DPS total for the fight, and a 5 minute fight, 2% Dodge being removed is worth around 32 DPS. So 32 DPS x 300 seconds is 9600 damage. Assuming 5 Whirlwinds a minute, you're looking at 25 whirlwinds over a 5 minute fight, so you'd have to do 10,400 damage with 25 offhand hits, or 416 damage average hits with your offhand with WW to equal out the DW loss according to my quick napkin math, I guess. I suppose that puts things closer than I had expected.
Last edited by Davia : 11/08/07 at 4:18 PM.
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Originally Posted by Machinator
The problem is that this talent and the WW change are expected to make up for the dps loss of Death Wish. I cant find the link but a blue post claimed that they saw a DPS increase in furry with these changes. How many people think this is true?
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I don't know, the whirlwind change in particular seems to help offsetting the death wish loss. I still find the death wish trainable idea interesting, but I doubt that will happen any time soon.
I have a small and extremely incomplete simulator, might test somethings there after 2.3 to see how things change. I was looking a bit forward to finishing that up, but I'm really prot specced for good at the moment, and I'm not really sure I'll spec fury anytime soon - so I'd really do some work on the sim on spare time, with nothing better to do.
I have a small and extremely incomplete simulator, might test somethings there after 2.3 to see how things change. I was looking a bit forward to finishing that up, but I'm really prot specced for good at the moment, and I'm not really sure I'll spec fury anytime soon - so I'd really do some work on the sim on spare time, with nothing better to do.
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Originally Posted by Machinator
The problem is that this talent and the WW change are expected to make up for the dps loss of Death Wish. I cant find the link but a blue post claimed that they saw a DPS increase in furry with these changes. How many people think this is true?
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Blizzard's post about Fury damage in 2.3 was irritatingly vague. They claimed they saw a "significant damage increase" but didn't specify context. Do they mean more damage to bosses? Higher overall damage meter standing because Fury warriors can spam Sweeping Whirlwind/Cleave on trash pulls and pad their meter position? Farming?
I've been playing with the dps warrior spreadsheet, and assuming they make the 6 expertise from defiance work in berserker stance, the dps loss for picking up the prot talents seems to be all but negligible.
With my t4/t5/s2 level fury gear, and typical raid buffs for me, I got the following dps numbers:
No impale/anger management, no 6 expertise from defiance:
1260.6
With impale/anger management:
1304.7
With +6 expertise and no impale/anger management:
1276.5
So I'm looking at a 1-(1276.5/1304.7) = 2.2% decrease in dps compared to an optimal spec, to get defiance's threat for tanking, last stand, and imp shield block to become uncrushable if you have to tank anything higher level. Finally, no deep wounds eating a debuff slot.
Disadvantages: No imp tclap, no +5% parry.
With my t4/t5/s2 level fury gear, and typical raid buffs for me, I got the following dps numbers:
No impale/anger management, no 6 expertise from defiance:
1260.6
With impale/anger management:
1304.7
With +6 expertise and no impale/anger management:
1276.5
So I'm looking at a 1-(1276.5/1304.7) = 2.2% decrease in dps compared to an optimal spec, to get defiance's threat for tanking, last stand, and imp shield block to become uncrushable if you have to tank anything higher level. Finally, no deep wounds eating a debuff slot.
Disadvantages: No imp tclap, no +5% parry.
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Originally Posted by rayijin
Assuming they make the 6 expertise from defiance work in berserker stance.
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Originally Posted by Emeraude
It doesn't, it only works in def stance.
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Originally Posted by Davia
Unless it's a fight where you're looking at going from threat capped to generating far less threat with the change to Improved Berserker stance, there is absolutely no way this is true. The ability to leverage Death Wish + Execute + Haste Pot and maybe even a Heroism is what kept Fury dps competitive. No DW Executes is going to be a huge blow. I know that personally when I was Fury, at 19% if I popped a haste pot + Bloodlust Brooch + DW + Recklessness, I'd be pulling something on the order of 2500-3000 DPS for a short period, and this is going to nerf 500+ of that DPS for the duration of Death Wish.
Edit: To try and make this thought more concrete, some simple math for it. Assuming 500 lost DPS for the execute range Death Wish, 500 DPS x 30 seconds = 15,000 damage lost. Assuming an average length fight, you'd probably use Death Wish one other time before Executes, so maybe that one only loses you something in the range of 10,000 damage, to be conservative. So 25,000 damage lost to Death Wish going away. Assuming 1600 DPS total for the fight, and a 5 minute fight, 2% Dodge being removed is worth around 32 DPS. So 32 DPS x 300 seconds is 9600 damage. Assuming 5 Whirlwinds a minute, you're looking at 25 whirlwinds over a 5 minute fight, so you'd have to do 10,400 damage with 25 offhand hits, or 416 damage average hits with your offhand with WW to equal out the DW loss according to my quick napkin math, I guess. I suppose that puts things closer than I had expected. |
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Originally Posted by ckaparos
Don't forget we get weapon expertise as a human racial so add 1.25% less to parry/dodge on top of the 2% weapon mastery.
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I'm thinking of switching to a warrior for raiding. I have a 64 Tauren and could get my brothers 60 Orc (same last name).
My raid roll would be DPS/Offtanking. So here are my questions for the experts:
1. Is bloodfury enough of a dps increase (and safe enough) to use in a majority of boss encounters.
2. Are the end game axes on par with the other end game weapons for the expertise bonus?
3. Would the DPS game from the expertise cancel out using a non-optimal weapon?
4. Do you get the racial bonus if you use the weapon in your off hand?
My assumptions are that blood fury is 282 * 15/120 ap is you use it every cool down. I also am assuming that expertise will give you ~1.2% increase to dps.
I was planning on going hammer smith or ax smith to craft a weapon, so I should be using a crafted main hand until T6 level content. Seems like it's a choice of locking into axes for a marginal amount of dps (when using axes) and threat generation (with axes) at the expense of losing the hp bonus for tanking.
My raid roll would be DPS/Offtanking. So here are my questions for the experts:
1. Is bloodfury enough of a dps increase (and safe enough) to use in a majority of boss encounters.
2. Are the end game axes on par with the other end game weapons for the expertise bonus?
3. Would the DPS game from the expertise cancel out using a non-optimal weapon?
4. Do you get the racial bonus if you use the weapon in your off hand?
My assumptions are that blood fury is 282 * 15/120 ap is you use it every cool down. I also am assuming that expertise will give you ~1.2% increase to dps.
I was planning on going hammer smith or ax smith to craft a weapon, so I should be using a crafted main hand until T6 level content. Seems like it's a choice of locking into axes for a marginal amount of dps (when using axes) and threat generation (with axes) at the expense of losing the hp bonus for tanking.
| 1. Is bloodfury enough of a dps increase (and safe enough) to use in a majority of boss encounters. |
| 2. Are the end game axes on par with the other end game weapons for the expertise bonus? |
| 3. Would the DPS game from the expertise cancel out using a non-optimal weapon? |
| 4. Do you get the racial bonus if you use the weapon in your off hand? |
I just played around with several 100 dps weapon options. My guild just downed KT and has 3 bosses in MT and 2 in BT down.
I use Talon of Azhara and Talon of the Phoenix, it seems upgrades to those weapons are minimal even with a 100 dps weapon.
While I hope they lift the T6 -Stats on several items I find it disturbing that my full T5 bonus is more than competitive in terms of dmg, until I exchange more than 1 item (full T5 > Blood-stained Pauldrons).
I know the progression itemwise is only by small margins, but it's ridiculous if you compare T6 weapons to the S3 Weapons for example (excluding Illidan).
Syphon of the Nathrezim, Rising Tide,... it seems they are worse than my current weapon-setup. And the next upgrades are very small dmg-wise. Same goes for the +Haste items... Most of it is mediocre (at least that's what the Spreadsheets tells me )
I use Talon of Azhara and Talon of the Phoenix, it seems upgrades to those weapons are minimal even with a 100 dps weapon.
While I hope they lift the T6 -Stats on several items I find it disturbing that my full T5 bonus is more than competitive in terms of dmg, until I exchange more than 1 item (full T5 > Blood-stained Pauldrons).
I know the progression itemwise is only by small margins, but it's ridiculous if you compare T6 weapons to the S3 Weapons for example (excluding Illidan).
Syphon of the Nathrezim, Rising Tide,... it seems they are worse than my current weapon-setup. And the next upgrades are very small dmg-wise. Same goes for the +Haste items... Most of it is mediocre (at least that's what the Spreadsheets tells me
)So Bloodfury is really too situational to rely on and the best weapons are usually not axes (PVE) negating using the expertise bonus.
I think I'll stick with Tauren for when I am called on to tank.
I think I'll stick with Tauren for when I am called on to tank.
I find it very difficult to use Blood fury on any meaningful encounter. Generally when we are pushing content i don't want to give the raid healers any more stress than necessary. Deathwish is often bad enough.
I may occasionally use it when DW is on cooldown and there is some sort of vulnerability phase a la Leotheras.
As for axes, i use the Wicked Edge and the S2 offhand. Since i don't really arena to any level where i am likely to reach the personal rating necessary, i will probably pick up a Rising Tide on the assumption that it will get buffed enough at some point to make it better than my current axe. Plus it's slow and therefore can take more advantage of the new WW change.
I may occasionally use it when DW is on cooldown and there is some sort of vulnerability phase a la Leotheras.
As for axes, i use the Wicked Edge and the S2 offhand. Since i don't really arena to any level where i am likely to reach the personal rating necessary, i will probably pick up a Rising Tide on the assumption that it will get buffed enough at some point to make it better than my current axe. Plus it's slow and therefore can take more advantage of the new WW change.
Does anyone know if [Dory's Embrace] will beat [Cloak of Darkness] for dps? There's a non-trivial drop in AP/crit going to Dory's, but I'm not quite sure how to value armor penetration.
I currently have 0 armor pen without dory's, it's rated as a 1.1 dps increase compared to cloak of darkness with a +10 crit gem (via the dps warrior spreadsheet).
With more armor penetration, it'd be even better.
With more armor penetration, it'd be even better.
Fang of Vashj
Im seeing a huge increase in DPS over slow offhands on the newest dps sheet with the fang of vashj almost 25 dps over the talon of ashara. I can only guess it is due to the Expertise. Has anyone else noticed this it seems to fly in the face of the new WW mechanic
I have long said that the damage gained by WW from 2 slow weapons will be evened out in other areas if you happen to use a fast weapon. WW isn't going to suddenly become 20+% of your damage just from the change. Chances are most people will see a 4-5% increase in damage from the change to their Whirlwind damage regardless of rather you use a fast or slow weapon. I have always been on to think that the DPS on a weapon is by far more important than the speed of the weapon.
Is anyone thinking of of a 17-41-3 build? Lose some dps (probably from DW spec) but if the added threat is solid, it might make off-tanking in raids, ZA and heroic dailies a little easier.
Anyone model any numbers on this, and what the optimum 41 in Fury would be?
Anyone model any numbers on this, and what the optimum 41 in Fury would be?
Edited onPatch 2.2.3
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Originally Posted by Grizlock
So Bloodfury is really too situational to rely on and the best weapons are usually not axes (PVE) negating using the expertise bonus.
I think I'll stick with Tauren for when I am called on to tank. |
| I have long said that the damage gained by WW from 2 slow weapons will be evened out in other areas if you happen to use a fast weapon. WW isn't going to suddenly become 20+% of your damage just from the change. Chances are most people will see a 4-5% increase in damage from the change to their Whirlwind damage regardless of rather you use a fast or slow weapon. I have always been on to think that the DPS on a weapon is by far more important than the speed of the weapon. |
Season 2 1.5 Axe adds 51.84 DPS
Season 2 2.6 Axe adds 59.27 DPS
Not a large gain, but still a gain using the same listed DPS of varying speed. Maybe sharpening stones lower the gap even further.
Last edited by Graul : 11/09/07 at 11:48 PM.
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Just an example with 3500 AP and 1 in Imp WW. Season 2 1.5 Axe adds 51.84 DPS Season 2 2.6 Axe adds 59.27 DPS Not a large gain, but still a gain using the same listed DPS of varying speed. Maybe sharpening stones lower the gap even further. |
I keep my Vashj dagger for my aggro-def equip but otherwise I'll use my two talons(phoenix/aszhara) from now on.
It's sad though that fast weapons will now be ignored by most warrior raiders if the overall dps stats can't outweigh their current setup.
Looks like shamans will have a hard time getting slow 1h-weapons from now on.
Well the thing the spreadsheet cant simulate is luck. If you DW 2.7+ and get a pair of misses you can lose a GCD. With a fast weapon its less of a problem and you can get away with less hit and stack a bit more on ap/crit. This may not be true at all gear levels/encounters as sometimes you have more rage than you know what to do with.
Semi-related: Is anyone to the point where the number of HS you can do is limited by MH speed rather than rage?
Semi-related: Is anyone to the point where the number of HS you can do is limited by MH speed rather than rage?
Sometimes on Teron it can get like that for a short time, Same if im "tanking" in Hyjal in full dps gear and 0.48 attack speed on both weapons i cant dump the rage at all.
Basicially you need a source of incoming rage from damage to get like that.
Basicially you need a source of incoming rage from damage to get like that.
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Originally Posted by DKP-Borgar
This increase is substantial if you think about maximizing your equip. It's like adding several +dmg gems to your equip.
I keep my Vashj dagger for my aggro-def equip but otherwise I'll use my two talons(phoenix/aszhara) from now on. It's sad though that fast weapons will now be ignored by most warrior raiders if the overall dps stats can't outweigh their current setup. Looks like shamans will have a hard time getting slow 1h-weapons from now on. |
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Originally Posted by Danath
Luckily I'm human and will be able to pick swords bonus without being touched by shamans, as they can't wield them
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Originally Posted by Machinator
Well the thing the spreadsheet cant simulate is luck. If you DW 2.7+ and get a pair of misses you can lose a GCD. With a fast weapon its less of a problem and you can get away with less hit and stack a bit more on ap/crit. This may not be true at all gear levels/encounters as sometimes you have more rage than you know what to do with.
Semi-related: Is anyone to the point where the number of HS you can do is limited by MH speed rather than rage? |
I have some questions about 2.3 gear. Right now i only have access to kara gruul mag and VR loots. soon to be lurker and maybe hydross. With the new 2.3 gear from badges / ZA having no crit but tons of hit and str, do you think it would be advisable to take those loots even with the insane crit loss? i know flurry uptime is gonna get lowered a ton if i do that. but im still rollin with veterans belt, bracers, and s2 chest and legs. my crit right now unbuffed is at 28% with 1852 ap and 191 hit(zerker stance). do i need more crit? more hit? more ap? should i replace veterans pieces with the new badge gear(eternium rage shackles, chain of unleashed rage)? im at a loss. input would be appreciated.
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Originally Posted by Ediconegoen
I have some questions about 2.3 gear. Right now i only have access to kara gruul mag and VR loots. soon to be lurker and maybe hydross. With the new 2.3 gear from badges / ZA having no crit but tons of hit and str, do you think it would be advisable to take those loots even with the insane crit loss? i know flurry uptime is gonna get lowered a ton if i do that. but im still rollin with veterans belt, bracers, and s2 chest and legs. my crit right now unbuffed is at 28% with 1852 ap and 191 hit(zerker stance). do i need more crit? more hit? more ap? should i replace veterans pieces with the new badge gear(eternium rage shackles, chain of unleashed rage)? im at a loss. input would be appreciated.
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You have to look at what group buffs your going to get to decide what gear to use, Im pretty much always with a feral druid so my raid buffed crit is already 40% so i will wear some more +hit/ap gear.
If i ever get a resto druid ill stick some more crit gear on.
Basicially for me i personally look to always have above 35% crit no matter my group composition.
If i ever get a resto druid ill stick some more crit gear on.
Basicially for me i personally look to always have above 35% crit no matter my group composition.
I just thought I'd bump the topic. Since 2.3 is coming up soon, I'd like to know if anyone has done any testing on exactly how the 2.3 changes will affect fury DPS. If anyone has done any testing and has perhaps some WWS logs to give us of before and after scenarios during boss encounters I would really appreciate it.
The reason I'm asking is mostly to see if I will bring more overall raid contribution as a Blood Frenzy or full Fury build. Right now I do about the same with either spec, with a 50 DPS boost using Blood Frenzy build, give or take.
I'm of the opinion that Fury viability will go down during boss encounters with the loss of Death Wish, which a Blood Frenzy warrior will still have, even though fury overall damage (i.e. including trash) will rise. However, I can't prove this since my testing on the PTR isn't anywhere near extensive enough, nor do I have the gear to do it (missing a slow off hand).
Anyways, any input would be appreciated.
The reason I'm asking is mostly to see if I will bring more overall raid contribution as a Blood Frenzy or full Fury build. Right now I do about the same with either spec, with a 50 DPS boost using Blood Frenzy build, give or take.
I'm of the opinion that Fury viability will go down during boss encounters with the loss of Death Wish, which a Blood Frenzy warrior will still have, even though fury overall damage (i.e. including trash) will rise. However, I can't prove this since my testing on the PTR isn't anywhere near extensive enough, nor do I have the gear to do it (missing a slow off hand).
Anyways, any input would be appreciated.
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Originally Posted by Zalein
I just thought I'd bump the topic. Since 2.3 is coming up soon, I'd like to know if anyone has done any testing on exactly how the 2.3 changes will affect fury DPS. If anyone has done any testing and has perhaps some WWS logs to give us of before and after scenarios during boss encounters I would really appreciate it.
The reason I'm asking is mostly to see if I will bring more overall raid contribution as a Blood Frenzy or full Fury build. Right now I do about the same with either spec, with a 50 DPS boost using Blood Frenzy build, give or take. I'm of the opinion that Fury viability will go down during boss encounters with the loss of Death Wish, which a Blood Frenzy warrior will still have, even though fury overall damage (i.e. including trash) will rise. However, I can't prove this since my testing on the PTR isn't anywhere near extensive enough, nor do I have the gear to do it (missing a slow off hand). Anyways, any input would be appreciated. |
It seems to me that despite the blue post claiming Fury DPS was up, its going to go down. At least on bosses. It will almost certainly go up vs trash considering Sweeping Strikes. Woot?
Deathwish is gone. Weapon Mastery is a great talent but to get it you have to pull 2 points out of something, likely Imp Execute. The WW change is going to be very minor.
We also did get 10% less threat from Imp Zerker but that is a meaningless change for most fights.
So, for bosses:
Pros:
2% less dodges
Offhand weapon included in WW
Cons
No Deathwish
No Imp Execute
Deathwish is gone. Weapon Mastery is a great talent but to get it you have to pull 2 points out of something, likely Imp Execute. The WW change is going to be very minor.
We also did get 10% less threat from Imp Zerker but that is a meaningless change for most fights.
So, for bosses:
Pros:
2% less dodges
Offhand weapon included in WW
Cons
No Deathwish
No Imp Execute
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Originally Posted by Hozz
It seems to me that despite the blue post claiming Fury DPS was up, its going to go down. At least on bosses. It will almost certainly go up vs trash considering Sweeping Strikes. Woot?
Deathwish is gone. Weapon Mastery is a great talent but to get it you have to pull 2 points out of something, likely Imp Execute. The WW change is going to be very minor. We also did get 10% less threat from Imp Zerker but that is a meaningless change for most fights. So, for bosses: Pros: 2% less dodges Offhand weapon included in WW Cons No Deathwish No Imp Execute |
You would be crazy to take off Imp Execute. You have to take off 2 points in Precision.
According to the latest version of the spreadsheet 2 points in Precision is more DPS than 2 points in Imp Execute.
Either way, and the point, I think we get boned on the Deathwish for Sweeping Strikes trade.
Either way, and the point, I think we get boned on the Deathwish for Sweeping Strikes trade.
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Originally Posted by Danath
You would be crazy to take off Imp Execute. You have to take off 2 points in Precision.
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Originally Posted by Danath
You would be crazy to take off Imp Execute. You have to take off 2 points in Precision.
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Pardon me from my newb question here. Im a shaman as you see and while i know +hit is huge for rogues. It doesnt seem that its huge for you fury warriors. Rogues are trying to always hit cap and will gem for it while i notice most of you end game warriors do not gem for it at all and most of you hover around 200 hit rating. Why is this?
If there is a post that sums up all fury warrior raiding questions please direct me to it cause this is really the only one ive seen.
If there is a post that sums up all fury warrior raiding questions please direct me to it cause this is really the only one ive seen.
Rogues cap hit to maximize procs. (Combat Potency/Poisons)
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Originally Posted by Zadus
Pardon me from my newb question here. Im a shaman as you see and while i know +hit is huge for rogues. It doesnt seem that its huge for you fury warriors. Rogues are trying to always hit cap and will gem for it while i notice most of you end game warriors do not gem for it at all and most of you hover around 200 hit rating. Why is this?
If there is a post that sums up all fury warrior raiding questions please direct me to it cause this is really the only one ive seen. |
Point for point, the gain is generally better off in other places once the yellow damage hit cap is reached.
Rogues cap because of Windfury, Combat Potency, Poisons, Sword Specialization, Mongoose etc. I suppose Wariors could do the same for the most part, but from my understanding the value of hit isn't as high once your specials stop being capable of missing. This of course in favor of attack power and more critical strike.
Not saying however that you should only obtain 8.6 (~9%) hit and stop though. It's still a good stat regardless.
Not saying however that you should only obtain 8.6 (~9%) hit and stop though. It's still a good stat regardless.
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Originally Posted by Tojara
Rogues cap because of Windfury, Combat Potency, Poisons, Sword Specialization, Mongoose etc. I suppose Wariors could do the same for the most part, but from my understanding the value of hit isn't as high once your specials stop being capable of missing. This of course in favor of attack power and more critical strike.
Not saying however that you should only obtain 8.6 (~9%) hit and stop though. It's still a good stat regardless. |
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Originally Posted by Danath
You would be crazy to take off Imp Execute. You have to take off 2 points in Precision.
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I'd definitely take imp execute over precision, no question about that. The deal is, for humans or orcs who were depending on their racial for +hit, with this change they'll be down nearly 5% hit, myself included. Another factor that's pushing me to stay Blood Frenzy build.
It has been said since the actual finalization of Weapon Mastery@-2%Dodge that we would better take that and remove two points in Precision. Anyway, by taking off Imp Execute and keeping Precision I barely gain 2 DPS with my current gear; it's pretty damn close.
With the change to +hit reducing taunt resists, precision has additional value if you ever plan on OT'ing tauntable mobs, or tanking 5-mans.
I suppose the decision varies depending on how well the combat duration simulated in the DPS calculator matches up with your actual experience (calculator seems to favor precision). Also important is whether the encounters you're working on hinge on good dps during early execution, or depends on a final stage burst.
I suppose the decision varies depending on how well the combat duration simulated in the DPS calculator matches up with your actual experience (calculator seems to favor precision). Also important is whether the encounters you're working on hinge on good dps during early execution, or depends on a final stage burst.
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Originally Posted by Danath
It has been said since the actual finalization of Weapon Mastery@-2%Dodge that we would better take that and remove two points in Precision. Anyway, by taking off Imp Execute and keeping Precision I barely gain 2 DPS with my current gear; it's pretty damn close.
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For the people saying they would drop Precision before execute can you back up that decision with a reason? Im just not seeing it, especially since the +hit will give more rage and more consistency for your executes just from more white hits in the last 20% on its own. Whats so big about Imp Execute that people seem to think of it as a must have?
Sometimes on Teron it can get like that for a short time, Same if im "tanking" in Hyjal in full dps gear and 0.48 attack speed on both weapons i cant dump the rage at all.
Basicially you need a source of incoming rage from damage to get like that.
Basicially you need a source of incoming rage from damage to get like that.
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Originally Posted by DKP-Borgar
This increase is substantial if you think about maximizing your equip. It's like adding several +dmg gems to your equip.
I keep my Vashj dagger for my aggro-def equip but otherwise I'll use my two talons(phoenix/aszhara) from now on. It's sad though that fast weapons will now be ignored by most warrior raiders if the overall dps stats can't outweigh their current setup. Looks like shamans will have a hard time getting slow 1h-weapons from now on. |
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Originally Posted by Danath
Luckily I'm human and will be able to pick swords bonus without being touched by shamans, as they can't wield them
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Originally Posted by Machinator
Well the thing the spreadsheet cant simulate is luck. If you DW 2.7+ and get a pair of misses you can lose a GCD. With a fast weapon its less of a problem and you can get away with less hit and stack a bit more on ap/crit. This may not be true at all gear levels/encounters as sometimes you have more rage than you know what to do with.
Semi-related: Is anyone to the point where the number of HS you can do is limited by MH speed rather than rage? |
I have some questions about 2.3 gear. Right now i only have access to kara gruul mag and VR loots. soon to be lurker and maybe hydross. With the new 2.3 gear from badges / ZA having no crit but tons of hit and str, do you think it would be advisable to take those loots even with the insane crit loss? i know flurry uptime is gonna get lowered a ton if i do that. but im still rollin with veterans belt, bracers, and s2 chest and legs. my crit right now unbuffed is at 28% with 1852 ap and 191 hit(zerker stance). do i need more crit? more hit? more ap? should i replace veterans pieces with the new badge gear(eternium rage shackles, chain of unleashed rage)? im at a loss. input would be appreciated.
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Originally Posted by Ediconegoen
I have some questions about 2.3 gear. Right now i only have access to kara gruul mag and VR loots. soon to be lurker and maybe hydross. With the new 2.3 gear from badges / ZA having no crit but tons of hit and str, do you think it would be advisable to take those loots even with the insane crit loss? i know flurry uptime is gonna get lowered a ton if i do that. but im still rollin with veterans belt, bracers, and s2 chest and legs. my crit right now unbuffed is at 28% with 1852 ap and 191 hit(zerker stance). do i need more crit? more hit? more ap? should i replace veterans pieces with the new badge gear(eternium rage shackles, chain of unleashed rage)? im at a loss. input would be appreciated.
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You have to look at what group buffs your going to get to decide what gear to use, Im pretty much always with a feral druid so my raid buffed crit is already 40% so i will wear some more +hit/ap gear.
If i ever get a resto druid ill stick some more crit gear on.
Basicially for me i personally look to always have above 35% crit no matter my group composition.
If i ever get a resto druid ill stick some more crit gear on.
Basicially for me i personally look to always have above 35% crit no matter my group composition.
I just thought I'd bump the topic. Since 2.3 is coming up soon, I'd like to know if anyone has done any testing on exactly how the 2.3 changes will affect fury DPS. If anyone has done any testing and has perhaps some WWS logs to give us of before and after scenarios during boss encounters I would really appreciate it.
The reason I'm asking is mostly to see if I will bring more overall raid contribution as a Blood Frenzy or full Fury build. Right now I do about the same with either spec, with a 50 DPS boost using Blood Frenzy build, give or take.
I'm of the opinion that Fury viability will go down during boss encounters with the loss of Death Wish, which a Blood Frenzy warrior will still have, even though fury overall damage (i.e. including trash) will rise. However, I can't prove this since my testing on the PTR isn't anywhere near extensive enough, nor do I have the gear to do it (missing a slow off hand).
Anyways, any input would be appreciated.
The reason I'm asking is mostly to see if I will bring more overall raid contribution as a Blood Frenzy or full Fury build. Right now I do about the same with either spec, with a 50 DPS boost using Blood Frenzy build, give or take.
I'm of the opinion that Fury viability will go down during boss encounters with the loss of Death Wish, which a Blood Frenzy warrior will still have, even though fury overall damage (i.e. including trash) will rise. However, I can't prove this since my testing on the PTR isn't anywhere near extensive enough, nor do I have the gear to do it (missing a slow off hand).
Anyways, any input would be appreciated.
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Originally Posted by Zalein
I just thought I'd bump the topic. Since 2.3 is coming up soon, I'd like to know if anyone has done any testing on exactly how the 2.3 changes will affect fury DPS. If anyone has done any testing and has perhaps some WWS logs to give us of before and after scenarios during boss encounters I would really appreciate it.
The reason I'm asking is mostly to see if I will bring more overall raid contribution as a Blood Frenzy or full Fury build. Right now I do about the same with either spec, with a 50 DPS boost using Blood Frenzy build, give or take. I'm of the opinion that Fury viability will go down during boss encounters with the loss of Death Wish, which a Blood Frenzy warrior will still have, even though fury overall damage (i.e. including trash) will rise. However, I can't prove this since my testing on the PTR isn't anywhere near extensive enough, nor do I have the gear to do it (missing a slow off hand). Anyways, any input would be appreciated. |
It seems to me that despite the blue post claiming Fury DPS was up, its going to go down. At least on bosses. It will almost certainly go up vs trash considering Sweeping Strikes. Woot?
Deathwish is gone. Weapon Mastery is a great talent but to get it you have to pull 2 points out of something, likely Imp Execute. The WW change is going to be very minor.
We also did get 10% less threat from Imp Zerker but that is a meaningless change for most fights.
So, for bosses:
Pros:
2% less dodges
Offhand weapon included in WW
Cons
No Deathwish
No Imp Execute
Deathwish is gone. Weapon Mastery is a great talent but to get it you have to pull 2 points out of something, likely Imp Execute. The WW change is going to be very minor.
We also did get 10% less threat from Imp Zerker but that is a meaningless change for most fights.
So, for bosses:
Pros:
2% less dodges
Offhand weapon included in WW
Cons
No Deathwish
No Imp Execute
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Originally Posted by Hozz
It seems to me that despite the blue post claiming Fury DPS was up, its going to go down. At least on bosses. It will almost certainly go up vs trash considering Sweeping Strikes. Woot?
Deathwish is gone. Weapon Mastery is a great talent but to get it you have to pull 2 points out of something, likely Imp Execute. The WW change is going to be very minor. We also did get 10% less threat from Imp Zerker but that is a meaningless change for most fights. So, for bosses: Pros: 2% less dodges Offhand weapon included in WW Cons No Deathwish No Imp Execute |
You would be crazy to take off Imp Execute. You have to take off 2 points in Precision.
According to the latest version of the spreadsheet 2 points in Precision is more DPS than 2 points in Imp Execute.
Either way, and the point, I think we get boned on the Deathwish for Sweeping Strikes trade.
Either way, and the point, I think we get boned on the Deathwish for Sweeping Strikes trade.
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Originally Posted by Danath
You would be crazy to take off Imp Execute. You have to take off 2 points in Precision.
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Originally Posted by Danath
You would be crazy to take off Imp Execute. You have to take off 2 points in Precision.
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Pardon me from my newb question here. Im a shaman as you see and while i know +hit is huge for rogues. It doesnt seem that its huge for you fury warriors. Rogues are trying to always hit cap and will gem for it while i notice most of you end game warriors do not gem for it at all and most of you hover around 200 hit rating. Why is this?
If there is a post that sums up all fury warrior raiding questions please direct me to it cause this is really the only one ive seen.
If there is a post that sums up all fury warrior raiding questions please direct me to it cause this is really the only one ive seen.
Rogues cap hit to maximize procs. (Combat Potency/Poisons)
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Originally Posted by Zadus
Pardon me from my newb question here. Im a shaman as you see and while i know +hit is huge for rogues. It doesnt seem that its huge for you fury warriors. Rogues are trying to always hit cap and will gem for it while i notice most of you end game warriors do not gem for it at all and most of you hover around 200 hit rating. Why is this?
If there is a post that sums up all fury warrior raiding questions please direct me to it cause this is really the only one ive seen. |
Point for point, the gain is generally better off in other places once the yellow damage hit cap is reached.
Rogues cap because of Windfury, Combat Potency, Poisons, Sword Specialization, Mongoose etc. I suppose Wariors could do the same for the most part, but from my understanding the value of hit isn't as high once your specials stop being capable of missing. This of course in favor of attack power and more critical strike.
Not saying however that you should only obtain 8.6 (~9%) hit and stop though. It's still a good stat regardless.
Not saying however that you should only obtain 8.6 (~9%) hit and stop though. It's still a good stat regardless.
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Originally Posted by Tojara
Rogues cap because of Windfury, Combat Potency, Poisons, Sword Specialization, Mongoose etc. I suppose Wariors could do the same for the most part, but from my understanding the value of hit isn't as high once your specials stop being capable of missing. This of course in favor of attack power and more critical strike.
Not saying however that you should only obtain 8.6 (~9%) hit and stop though. It's still a good stat regardless. |
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Originally Posted by Danath
You would be crazy to take off Imp Execute. You have to take off 2 points in Precision.
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I'd definitely take imp execute over precision, no question about that. The deal is, for humans or orcs who were depending on their racial for +hit, with this change they'll be down nearly 5% hit, myself included. Another factor that's pushing me to stay Blood Frenzy build.
It has been said since the actual finalization of Weapon Mastery@-2%Dodge that we would better take that and remove two points in Precision. Anyway, by taking off Imp Execute and keeping Precision I barely gain 2 DPS with my current gear; it's pretty damn close.
With the change to +hit reducing taunt resists, precision has additional value if you ever plan on OT'ing tauntable mobs, or tanking 5-mans.
I suppose the decision varies depending on how well the combat duration simulated in the DPS calculator matches up with your actual experience (calculator seems to favor precision). Also important is whether the encounters you're working on hinge on good dps during early execution, or depends on a final stage burst.
I suppose the decision varies depending on how well the combat duration simulated in the DPS calculator matches up with your actual experience (calculator seems to favor precision). Also important is whether the encounters you're working on hinge on good dps during early execution, or depends on a final stage burst.
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Originally Posted by Danath
It has been said since the actual finalization of Weapon Mastery@-2%Dodge that we would better take that and remove two points in Precision. Anyway, by taking off Imp Execute and keeping Precision I barely gain 2 DPS with my current gear; it's pretty damn close.
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For the people saying they would drop Precision before execute can you back up that decision with a reason? Im just not seeing it, especially since the +hit will give more rage and more consistency for your executes just from more white hits in the last 20% on its own. Whats so big about Imp Execute that people seem to think of it as a must have?
The change from Imp Execute to Precision will gain me about 3 DPS according to the spreadsheet. From my experience, the last 20% on a boss can be the most crucial due to enrages, mass damage, hectic environments, et al (Vashj, Leo, KT, Morogrim, plenty of examples - not sure about MH/BT since my guild just killed KT this week). I'd rather have the increased damage during that last bit than 3 DPS more overall.
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Originally Posted by Zalein
The change from Imp Execute to Precision will gain me about 3 DPS according to the spreadsheet. From my experience, the last 20% on a boss can be the most crucial due to enrages, mass damage, hectic environments, et al (Vashj, Leo, KT, Morogrim, plenty of examples - not sure about MH/BT since my guild just killed KT this week). I'd rather have the increased damage during that last bit than 3 DPS more overall.
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Originally Posted by Graul
No, you'd be crazy to take 2% more miss (on what makes up 45% - 55% of your overall damage) for the other 80% of the fight.
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Improved execute is really nice because when something glances you want to have an execute or bloodthirst every GCD during execute phase, and over the course of execute phase, 1300+ executes add up to more damage than 2% of my typical 30%-40% white damage.
Loading... is a bad example of white damage to overall damage ratio, but I was threat capped for a decent portion of the fight; this shouldn't be the case come 2.3, so white damage will go down, HS will go up.
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Originally Posted by Quixotic
White damage is nowhere near 55% as your gear improves, you gain enough rage to HS more often, making hit past 9% progressively worse as your gear improves.
Improved execute is really nice because when something glances you want to have an execute or bloodthirst every GCD during execute phase, and over the course of execute phase, 1300+ executes add up to more damage than 2% of my typical 30%-40% white damage. Loading... is a bad example of white damage to overall damage ratio, but I was threat capped for a decent portion of the fight; this shouldn't be the case come 2.3, so white damage will go down, HS will go up. |
I guess judgement is still out on how exactly DPS will change for Fury Warriors.
Did anyone calculate yet if it is worth to drop deep wounds/impale for imp execute/precision/imp WW?
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Originally Posted by D4vE
Did anyone calculate yet if it is worth to drop deep wounds/impale for imp execute/precision/imp WW?
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Expertise, hit and efficient rage generation
For 2.3, has enough research been done to determine what the necessary amount of hit and expertise rating needed to achieve efficient rage generation while dual wielding? I've seen a fair bit of math but people seem to have varying opinions about whats optimal, just wondering if anyone has some numbers backed up by some concrete calculations. Thanks.
Pardon if this has been addressed, but I am new here (nice meeting you all) and had a some what difficult time finding this particular issue.
Pardon if this has been addressed, but I am new here (nice meeting you all) and had a some what difficult time finding this particular issue.
Edited onPatch 2.3.0
I don't know if i'm freaking out but in the patch notes that were just downloaded/installed to live, did not include the new changes to human racials ie. it still shows that weapon skill got changed to +1% crit for mace/sword instead of the +expertise.
Is anyone else seeing this? Are the patch notes just wrong or was the change taken back?
Is anyone else seeing this? Are the patch notes just wrong or was the change taken back?
Last edited by SSLanfear : 11/13/07 at 11:36 AM.
Most likely the patch notes are just wrong. They do a terrible job on keeping the changes and docs synced up.
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Originally Posted by Ryft
For 2.3, has enough research been done to determine what the necessary amount of hit and expertise rating needed to achieve efficient rage generation while dual wielding? I've seen a fair bit of math but people seem to have varying opinions about whats optimal, just wondering if anyone has some numbers backed up by some concrete calculations. Thanks.
Pardon if this has been addressed, but I am new here (nice meeting you all) and had a some what difficult time finding this particular issue. |
All stats that increase white dps will give you more rage (str,agi,crit,haste,hit, expertise,-armor), there is no particular "need" for a certain amount of hit or expertise. Some stats give more rage increase than others though (not quite the same as the best ones for damage), and this can change with gear level. I suggest you download and play with the DPS warrior spreadsheet (that you can find in another thread here), it will calculate your rage generation and model the resulting dps from both white and yellow damage (including execute phase).
Edited onPatch 2.3.0
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Originally Posted by Quixotic
White damage is nowhere near 55% as your gear improves, you gain enough rage to HS more often, making hit past 9% progressively worse as your gear improves.
Improved execute is really nice because when something glances you want to have an execute or bloodthirst every GCD during execute phase, and over the course of execute phase, 1300+ executes add up to more damage than 2% of my typical 30%-40% white damage. Loading... is a bad example of white damage to overall damage ratio, but I was threat capped for a decent portion of the fight; this shouldn't be the case come 2.3, so white damage will go down, HS will go up. |
I will probably just try both 1/3 Precision as well as 3/3 in the end though to see what gives me better results for the short term. The spreadsheet shows it being an extremely minimal difference, and while bosses are "what counts", with our new "improved DPS" I'd like to actually try and take advantage of our Mage-in-plate ability with SS whenever possible.
Last edited by Graul : 11/13/07 at 1:24 PM.
I have dps'd as protection spec on certain fights where we didn't min/max the raid and was surprised at how well it did. I was able to put out a little over 700 dps without windfury (I had LoTP and a BM hunter) on the Lurker Below using my dual wield fury gear. I have also been spec'd 17/44 for the same fight (although without a few gear upgrades) and finished at just about 1000dps (with windfury).
Based on my experiences, and seeing the new changes to rage for devastate and hitting with both weapons for whirlwind, I think the gap between fury and protection dps is shrinking even more. I modified the warrior dps spreadsheet to use a 6 devastate + 1 WW rotation and found that the theoretical dps difference between 17/44 and 17/3/41 (emphasis on dps talents) is only 10-15%. My gear in protection spec includes about 10% hit, 35% crit, and 2900 AP raid buffed with a pair of 97 dps weapons (2.7/2.6 speed). The theoretical dps on the spreadsheet was 1200 dps for 17/3/41 and 1350 dps for 17/44.
Obviously a fury warrior still does more dps, but if you end up tanking anything (or being one of 2 tanks in a ZA raid) you really have to wonder if it would be better to just be protection spec'd.
I have definitely decided that it is either 17/44 or 17/3/41 for me. Even losing just 3 points to pick up the new tactical mastery makes the dps gap close enough that it isn't worth it.
Based on my experiences, and seeing the new changes to rage for devastate and hitting with both weapons for whirlwind, I think the gap between fury and protection dps is shrinking even more. I modified the warrior dps spreadsheet to use a 6 devastate + 1 WW rotation and found that the theoretical dps difference between 17/44 and 17/3/41 (emphasis on dps talents) is only 10-15%. My gear in protection spec includes about 10% hit, 35% crit, and 2900 AP raid buffed with a pair of 97 dps weapons (2.7/2.6 speed). The theoretical dps on the spreadsheet was 1200 dps for 17/3/41 and 1350 dps for 17/44.
Obviously a fury warrior still does more dps, but if you end up tanking anything (or being one of 2 tanks in a ZA raid) you really have to wonder if it would be better to just be protection spec'd.
I have definitely decided that it is either 17/44 or 17/3/41 for me. Even losing just 3 points to pick up the new tactical mastery makes the dps gap close enough that it isn't worth it.
I'm wondering if anyone on the 2.3 PTR's got a chance to test the new Executioner enchant. I'm curious to know the proc rate/effective penetration value of the enchant (could it possibly be better than mongoose on boss fights?).
People should also consider that with out Death Wish, Imp execute isn't going to see the return it once did after 20%. If you can generate 15 rage every 1.5 seconds, which shouldn't be hard to do IMO, you should still be able to spam execute. Further Your white attacks Not missing will insure that you DO have the rage to execute every 1.5 seconds. In short, taking an over all dps loss for imp execute is not worth it IMO.
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Originally Posted by zaon
I have definitely decided that it is either 17/44 or 17/3/41 for me. Even losing just 3 points to pick up the new tactical mastery makes the dps gap close enough that it isn't worth it.
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Originally Posted by Olon97
Did you rule out 5/41/15? Messing around with the spreadsheet and my pre-raid gear on my warrior alt it was only a slight drop from 17/41/3 and significantly better than 0/31/30 (didn't try modeling devastate).
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17/3/41 (full prot, 1/3 imp shield, impale, 5/5 vit, 5/5 1h spec) - 1177DPS
** 0/20/41 (full prot same as above but sacrificing all arms for 5/5 dual wield) - 1232DPS
5/41/15 (1/3 precision, 5/5 dw spec, 2/2 weap mast, 0/2 imp execute) - 1278DPS
0/46/15 (everything you need for dps in fury) - 1306DPS
17/41/3 (0/3 precision) - 1315DPS
17/44 (all but 0/2 imp execute) - 1355DPS
** - this build is impractical because you lose 5/5 parry and 3/3 imp TC as a protection spec
Also keep in mind that deep wounds is not modeled in the spreadsheet. That is usually around 3% of my dps so you can safely add ~30dps to specs that have it.
The problem with the 5/41/15 spec is that you do maybe 80DPS (roughly 7%) more than a 17/3/41 protection spec and you still can't MT any fights and still have a rough time OT a lot of fights. Is that small boost worth it? I don't know for others, but for me it probably isn't (I tank probably 60-70% of the time and right now that often means respeccing because not having improved shield block/shield slam threat is a no go, whereas when I DPS the other 30-40% of the time a loss of 10% of my dps is not going to cost the fight).
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Originally Posted by Duranthor
People should also consider that with out Death Wish, Imp execute isn't going to see the return it once did after 20%. If you can generate 15 rage every 1.5 seconds, which shouldn't be hard to do IMO, you should still be able to spam execute. Further Your white attacks Not missing will insure that you DO have the rage to execute every 1.5 seconds. In short, taking an over all dps loss for imp execute is not worth it IMO.
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Basically, you're trading 2% hit for -2% dodge on whites, effectively the same thing, and gaining -2% dodge on your yellows, for an overall DPS increase.
The arguments for 5/41/15 from an offtanking standpoint is:
- 3/3 precision for 3% fewer taunt resists (presuming tank gear not hit capped otherwise).
- precision + weapon mastery + defiance's expertise for strong secondary threat building without incoming rage from damage recieved.
- threat reduction (and less AoE damage taken?) from imp zerker stance for threat sensitive fights while purely DPSing.
- 1/3 imp shield block for similar crushing avoidance as full prot (albeit squishier than deep prot on many other counts).
- Last stand always handy for short-duration "oh crap I'm tanking!" OT moments.
Relative to the ~3% damage boost you get from 17/41/3 (vs. 5/41/15), the extra 12 points in prot seem well spent. 17/44 is a 6% gain over 5/41/15, but loses a lot of OT utility without at least tactical mastery.
I'm looking at the hybrid build for a pre-raid geared alt for tanking heroics and OT'ing Kara/ZA. Given the incoming damage of T5/T6 opponents on OTs, 17/3/41 certainly seems like a top choice for raiding OTs due to all the extra survivability goodies.
- 3/3 precision for 3% fewer taunt resists (presuming tank gear not hit capped otherwise).
- precision + weapon mastery + defiance's expertise for strong secondary threat building without incoming rage from damage recieved.
- threat reduction (and less AoE damage taken?) from imp zerker stance for threat sensitive fights while purely DPSing.
- 1/3 imp shield block for similar crushing avoidance as full prot (albeit squishier than deep prot on many other counts).
- Last stand always handy for short-duration "oh crap I'm tanking!" OT moments.
Relative to the ~3% damage boost you get from 17/41/3 (vs. 5/41/15), the extra 12 points in prot seem well spent. 17/44 is a 6% gain over 5/41/15, but loses a lot of OT utility without at least tactical mastery.
I'm looking at the hybrid build for a pre-raid geared alt for tanking heroics and OT'ing Kara/ZA. Given the incoming damage of T5/T6 opponents on OTs, 17/3/41 certainly seems like a top choice for raiding OTs due to all the extra survivability goodies.
There is no question that weapon mastery should be taken. I was suggesting that you should get both percision AND weapon mastery and take the points from IMP execute.
While the majority of our damage is from specials, it is the white damage that we do that fuels our ability to do those specials. The more we miss, the less rage we have to spend on yellow attacks. That is why we see a dps loss when we take the points from precision and leave the points in IMP execute. If you are not rage starved at all, then by all means drop the points in precision. IF you are barely covering your move rotations it does not seem like a very good move IMO
While the majority of our damage is from specials, it is the white damage that we do that fuels our ability to do those specials. The more we miss, the less rage we have to spend on yellow attacks. That is why we see a dps loss when we take the points from precision and leave the points in IMP execute. If you are not rage starved at all, then by all means drop the points in precision. IF you are barely covering your move rotations it does not seem like a very good move IMO
I'm in a guild currently raiding BT, and in all honesty, being one of the prot warriors, (ot'ing mainly) it's quite frustrating being 'useless' (as we can't really dps) in most encounters, with the exception of gurtogg, supremus and maybe azgalor. With the introduction of increased threat for MS/BT in this patch, i'm thinking about speccing something like 0/41/20 or 5/41/15 to give it a shot and see if it's a viable raiding spec for high end at all. Even if this increase in threat for bloodthirst will not make it anywhere as good as SS, i wonder if this change in tactical mastery can 'balance it out', if you will, and make it possible to keep up with the threat on encounters like gurtogg and at the same time making it possible to mitigate enough damage to hold it. In a way, do you think the new tactical mastery, defiance and weapon mastery can make us the new 'feral druids'?
Has anybody that did a few bosses (especially Gorefiend) in BT have any thoughts or numbers on the changes as to our DPS? Our guild ran SSC tonight to attune a couple resto shamans, and I really can't rate the DPS change, since it's been so long since we did SSC that my gear's changed dramatically and I just don't remember what I normally did on a certain boss.
To me, it felt really lackluster. For instance, I really felt that I could have put out another 100 DPS or more on Morogrim (the only real tank and spank in the instance, I wasn't in for Lurker) if I had had Death Wish coupled with Haste Pots, Drums and Heroism, as opposed to those without Death Wish. Sure, whirlwind was nice and jumped up a couple percent of my total damage, and I was getting 0-4% dodge on my attacks, but I really don't think it made up for it.
So, does anybody have any "I did this on x last week and did this on x this week and here's the difference" WWS reports yet?
To me, it felt really lackluster. For instance, I really felt that I could have put out another 100 DPS or more on Morogrim (the only real tank and spank in the instance, I wasn't in for Lurker) if I had had Death Wish coupled with Haste Pots, Drums and Heroism, as opposed to those without Death Wish. Sure, whirlwind was nice and jumped up a couple percent of my total damage, and I was getting 0-4% dodge on my attacks, but I really don't think it made up for it.
So, does anybody have any "I did this on x last week and did this on x this week and here's the difference" WWS reports yet?
I ran Hyjal tonight and like you had that feeling like I was missing a trinket or timer CD (DW) haha.
I normally have an Enh Shaman in my group, but didn't for either Rage or Anetheron. I felt like I was doing substantially less DPS, but checked the WWS and was probably around 50-100 dps less than I normally would've been. Part of that is the lack of WF and Bloodlust, but all in all I'm going to have to get back into a new groove. The server crashed in the 1st wave of Kaz'Rogal so we quit there.
We had an Executioneer Pattern drop horde side tonight, but I'm going to wait for some numbers before I reenchant my Rising Tide ...since I enchanted it with Mongoose last week >_> haha.
I will say with trash in Hyjal my DPS was significantly higher as SS/WW/Cleave combo was putting up some gaudy numbers. I fear however that Blizzard knew this would happen and would only use this to try and appease the ones that really see our single target DPS suffer with "Well, you are doing more damage when it doesn't really matter, eh?"
I normally have an Enh Shaman in my group, but didn't for either Rage or Anetheron. I felt like I was doing substantially less DPS, but checked the WWS and was probably around 50-100 dps less than I normally would've been. Part of that is the lack of WF and Bloodlust, but all in all I'm going to have to get back into a new groove. The server crashed in the 1st wave of Kaz'Rogal so we quit there.
We had an Executioneer Pattern drop horde side tonight, but I'm going to wait for some numbers before I reenchant my Rising Tide ...since I enchanted it with Mongoose last week >_> haha.
I will say with trash in Hyjal my DPS was significantly higher as SS/WW/Cleave combo was putting up some gaudy numbers. I fear however that Blizzard knew this would happen and would only use this to try and appease the ones that really see our single target DPS suffer with "Well, you are doing more damage when it doesn't really matter, eh?"
Edited onPatch 2.3.0
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Originally Posted by zaon
Here are my exact numbers for different setups with what I consider decent gear (10% hit, 2900 AP, 35% crit, Wicked Edge + S2 slow axe -- this would be the prot stats, add another 600 or so AP for a full fury setup with commanding presence/rampage/imp zerk):
17/3/41 (full prot, 1/3 imp shield, impale, 5/5 vit, 5/5 1h spec) - 1177DPS ** 0/20/41 (full prot same as above but sacrificing all arms for 5/5 dual wield) - 1232DPS 5/41/15 (1/3 precision, 5/5 dw spec, 2/2 weap mast, 0/2 imp execute) - 1278DPS 0/46/15 (everything you need for dps in fury) - 1306DPS 17/41/3 (0/3 precision) - 1315DPS 17/44 (all but 0/2 imp execute) - 1355DPS ** - this build is impractical because you lose 5/5 parry and 3/3 imp TC as a protection spec Also keep in mind that deep wounds is not modeled in the spreadsheet. That is usually around 3% of my dps so you can safely add ~30dps to specs that have it. The problem with the 5/41/15 spec is that you do maybe 80DPS (roughly 7%) more than a 17/3/41 protection spec and you still can't MT any fights and still have a rough time OT a lot of fights. Is that small boost worth it? I don't know for others, but for me it probably isn't (I tank probably 60-70% of the time and right now that often means respeccing because not having improved shield block/shield slam threat is a no go, whereas when I DPS the other 30-40% of the time a loss of 10% of my dps is not going to cost the fight). |
Moified version of the warrior dps spreadsheet (From the test version)
Can't guarantee values are 100% correct but they do match the values I saw when testing 17/44/0 and 11/5/44 respectively. A bonus for the 5-man group on the side of devastate dps is the sunder debuff when using a paladin or druid as tank, which would prbably make protection dps just as vialble as fury (if you disregard potential aggro issues).
Last edited by Kyaska : 11/14/07 at 4:27 AM.
Hi, I am currently specced 17/44/0 and starting SSC/TK. My dps is around 650ish most times which i feel is not performing to what i would expect. I use BT and WW everytime it is up and try to incorporate HS whenever possible. I would appreciate some pointers from the more experienced guys? This is the latest WWS.
Krav - WWS
Krav - WWS
The change from Imp Execute to Precision will gain me about 3 DPS according to the spreadsheet. From my experience, the last 20% on a boss can be the most crucial due to enrages, mass damage, hectic environments, et al (Vashj, Leo, KT, Morogrim, plenty of examples - not sure about MH/BT since my guild just killed KT this week). I'd rather have the increased damage during that last bit than 3 DPS more overall.
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Originally Posted by Zalein
The change from Imp Execute to Precision will gain me about 3 DPS according to the spreadsheet. From my experience, the last 20% on a boss can be the most crucial due to enrages, mass damage, hectic environments, et al (Vashj, Leo, KT, Morogrim, plenty of examples - not sure about MH/BT since my guild just killed KT this week). I'd rather have the increased damage during that last bit than 3 DPS more overall.
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Originally Posted by Graul
No, you'd be crazy to take 2% more miss (on what makes up 45% - 55% of your overall damage) for the other 80% of the fight.
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Improved execute is really nice because when something glances you want to have an execute or bloodthirst every GCD during execute phase, and over the course of execute phase, 1300+ executes add up to more damage than 2% of my typical 30%-40% white damage.
Loading... is a bad example of white damage to overall damage ratio, but I was threat capped for a decent portion of the fight; this shouldn't be the case come 2.3, so white damage will go down, HS will go up.
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Originally Posted by Quixotic
White damage is nowhere near 55% as your gear improves, you gain enough rage to HS more often, making hit past 9% progressively worse as your gear improves.
Improved execute is really nice because when something glances you want to have an execute or bloodthirst every GCD during execute phase, and over the course of execute phase, 1300+ executes add up to more damage than 2% of my typical 30%-40% white damage. Loading... is a bad example of white damage to overall damage ratio, but I was threat capped for a decent portion of the fight; this shouldn't be the case come 2.3, so white damage will go down, HS will go up. |
I guess judgement is still out on how exactly DPS will change for Fury Warriors.
Did anyone calculate yet if it is worth to drop deep wounds/impale for imp execute/precision/imp WW?
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Originally Posted by D4vE
Did anyone calculate yet if it is worth to drop deep wounds/impale for imp execute/precision/imp WW?
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Expertise, hit and efficient rage generation
For 2.3, has enough research been done to determine what the necessary amount of hit and expertise rating needed to achieve efficient rage generation while dual wielding? I've seen a fair bit of math but people seem to have varying opinions about whats optimal, just wondering if anyone has some numbers backed up by some concrete calculations. Thanks.
Pardon if this has been addressed, but I am new here (nice meeting you all) and had a some what difficult time finding this particular issue.
Pardon if this has been addressed, but I am new here (nice meeting you all) and had a some what difficult time finding this particular issue.
Edited onPatch 2.3.0
I don't know if i'm freaking out but in the patch notes that were just downloaded/installed to live, did not include the new changes to human racials ie. it still shows that weapon skill got changed to +1% crit for mace/sword instead of the +expertise.
Is anyone else seeing this? Are the patch notes just wrong or was the change taken back?
Is anyone else seeing this? Are the patch notes just wrong or was the change taken back?
Last edited by SSLanfear : 11/13/07 at 11:36 AM.
Most likely the patch notes are just wrong. They do a terrible job on keeping the changes and docs synced up.
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Originally Posted by Ryft
For 2.3, has enough research been done to determine what the necessary amount of hit and expertise rating needed to achieve efficient rage generation while dual wielding? I've seen a fair bit of math but people seem to have varying opinions about whats optimal, just wondering if anyone has some numbers backed up by some concrete calculations. Thanks.
Pardon if this has been addressed, but I am new here (nice meeting you all) and had a some what difficult time finding this particular issue. |
All stats that increase white dps will give you more rage (str,agi,crit,haste,hit, expertise,-armor), there is no particular "need" for a certain amount of hit or expertise. Some stats give more rage increase than others though (not quite the same as the best ones for damage), and this can change with gear level. I suggest you download and play with the DPS warrior spreadsheet (that you can find in another thread here), it will calculate your rage generation and model the resulting dps from both white and yellow damage (including execute phase).
Edited onPatch 2.3.0
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Originally Posted by Quixotic
White damage is nowhere near 55% as your gear improves, you gain enough rage to HS more often, making hit past 9% progressively worse as your gear improves.
Improved execute is really nice because when something glances you want to have an execute or bloodthirst every GCD during execute phase, and over the course of execute phase, 1300+ executes add up to more damage than 2% of my typical 30%-40% white damage. Loading... is a bad example of white damage to overall damage ratio, but I was threat capped for a decent portion of the fight; this shouldn't be the case come 2.3, so white damage will go down, HS will go up. |
I will probably just try both 1/3 Precision as well as 3/3 in the end though to see what gives me better results for the short term. The spreadsheet shows it being an extremely minimal difference, and while bosses are "what counts", with our new "improved DPS" I'd like to actually try and take advantage of our Mage-in-plate ability with SS whenever possible.
Last edited by Graul : 11/13/07 at 1:24 PM.
I have dps'd as protection spec on certain fights where we didn't min/max the raid and was surprised at how well it did. I was able to put out a little over 700 dps without windfury (I had LoTP and a BM hunter) on the Lurker Below using my dual wield fury gear. I have also been spec'd 17/44 for the same fight (although without a few gear upgrades) and finished at just about 1000dps (with windfury).
Based on my experiences, and seeing the new changes to rage for devastate and hitting with both weapons for whirlwind, I think the gap between fury and protection dps is shrinking even more. I modified the warrior dps spreadsheet to use a 6 devastate + 1 WW rotation and found that the theoretical dps difference between 17/44 and 17/3/41 (emphasis on dps talents) is only 10-15%. My gear in protection spec includes about 10% hit, 35% crit, and 2900 AP raid buffed with a pair of 97 dps weapons (2.7/2.6 speed). The theoretical dps on the spreadsheet was 1200 dps for 17/3/41 and 1350 dps for 17/44.
Obviously a fury warrior still does more dps, but if you end up tanking anything (or being one of 2 tanks in a ZA raid) you really have to wonder if it would be better to just be protection spec'd.
I have definitely decided that it is either 17/44 or 17/3/41 for me. Even losing just 3 points to pick up the new tactical mastery makes the dps gap close enough that it isn't worth it.
Based on my experiences, and seeing the new changes to rage for devastate and hitting with both weapons for whirlwind, I think the gap between fury and protection dps is shrinking even more. I modified the warrior dps spreadsheet to use a 6 devastate + 1 WW rotation and found that the theoretical dps difference between 17/44 and 17/3/41 (emphasis on dps talents) is only 10-15%. My gear in protection spec includes about 10% hit, 35% crit, and 2900 AP raid buffed with a pair of 97 dps weapons (2.7/2.6 speed). The theoretical dps on the spreadsheet was 1200 dps for 17/3/41 and 1350 dps for 17/44.
Obviously a fury warrior still does more dps, but if you end up tanking anything (or being one of 2 tanks in a ZA raid) you really have to wonder if it would be better to just be protection spec'd.
I have definitely decided that it is either 17/44 or 17/3/41 for me. Even losing just 3 points to pick up the new tactical mastery makes the dps gap close enough that it isn't worth it.
I'm wondering if anyone on the 2.3 PTR's got a chance to test the new Executioner enchant. I'm curious to know the proc rate/effective penetration value of the enchant (could it possibly be better than mongoose on boss fights?).
People should also consider that with out Death Wish, Imp execute isn't going to see the return it once did after 20%. If you can generate 15 rage every 1.5 seconds, which shouldn't be hard to do IMO, you should still be able to spam execute. Further Your white attacks Not missing will insure that you DO have the rage to execute every 1.5 seconds. In short, taking an over all dps loss for imp execute is not worth it IMO.
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Originally Posted by zaon
I have definitely decided that it is either 17/44 or 17/3/41 for me. Even losing just 3 points to pick up the new tactical mastery makes the dps gap close enough that it isn't worth it.
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Originally Posted by Olon97
Did you rule out 5/41/15? Messing around with the spreadsheet and my pre-raid gear on my warrior alt it was only a slight drop from 17/41/3 and significantly better than 0/31/30 (didn't try modeling devastate).
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17/3/41 (full prot, 1/3 imp shield, impale, 5/5 vit, 5/5 1h spec) - 1177DPS
** 0/20/41 (full prot same as above but sacrificing all arms for 5/5 dual wield) - 1232DPS
5/41/15 (1/3 precision, 5/5 dw spec, 2/2 weap mast, 0/2 imp execute) - 1278DPS
0/46/15 (everything you need for dps in fury) - 1306DPS
17/41/3 (0/3 precision) - 1315DPS
17/44 (all but 0/2 imp execute) - 1355DPS
** - this build is impractical because you lose 5/5 parry and 3/3 imp TC as a protection spec
Also keep in mind that deep wounds is not modeled in the spreadsheet. That is usually around 3% of my dps so you can safely add ~30dps to specs that have it.
The problem with the 5/41/15 spec is that you do maybe 80DPS (roughly 7%) more than a 17/3/41 protection spec and you still can't MT any fights and still have a rough time OT a lot of fights. Is that small boost worth it? I don't know for others, but for me it probably isn't (I tank probably 60-70% of the time and right now that often means respeccing because not having improved shield block/shield slam threat is a no go, whereas when I DPS the other 30-40% of the time a loss of 10% of my dps is not going to cost the fight).
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Originally Posted by Duranthor
People should also consider that with out Death Wish, Imp execute isn't going to see the return it once did after 20%. If you can generate 15 rage every 1.5 seconds, which shouldn't be hard to do IMO, you should still be able to spam execute. Further Your white attacks Not missing will insure that you DO have the rage to execute every 1.5 seconds. In short, taking an over all dps loss for imp execute is not worth it IMO.
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Basically, you're trading 2% hit for -2% dodge on whites, effectively the same thing, and gaining -2% dodge on your yellows, for an overall DPS increase.
The arguments for 5/41/15 from an offtanking standpoint is:
- 3/3 precision for 3% fewer taunt resists (presuming tank gear not hit capped otherwise).
- precision + weapon mastery + defiance's expertise for strong secondary threat building without incoming rage from damage recieved.
- threat reduction (and less AoE damage taken?) from imp zerker stance for threat sensitive fights while purely DPSing.
- 1/3 imp shield block for similar crushing avoidance as full prot (albeit squishier than deep prot on many other counts).
- Last stand always handy for short-duration "oh crap I'm tanking!" OT moments.
Relative to the ~3% damage boost you get from 17/41/3 (vs. 5/41/15), the extra 12 points in prot seem well spent. 17/44 is a 6% gain over 5/41/15, but loses a lot of OT utility without at least tactical mastery.
I'm looking at the hybrid build for a pre-raid geared alt for tanking heroics and OT'ing Kara/ZA. Given the incoming damage of T5/T6 opponents on OTs, 17/3/41 certainly seems like a top choice for raiding OTs due to all the extra survivability goodies.
- 3/3 precision for 3% fewer taunt resists (presuming tank gear not hit capped otherwise).
- precision + weapon mastery + defiance's expertise for strong secondary threat building without incoming rage from damage recieved.
- threat reduction (and less AoE damage taken?) from imp zerker stance for threat sensitive fights while purely DPSing.
- 1/3 imp shield block for similar crushing avoidance as full prot (albeit squishier than deep prot on many other counts).
- Last stand always handy for short-duration "oh crap I'm tanking!" OT moments.
Relative to the ~3% damage boost you get from 17/41/3 (vs. 5/41/15), the extra 12 points in prot seem well spent. 17/44 is a 6% gain over 5/41/15, but loses a lot of OT utility without at least tactical mastery.
I'm looking at the hybrid build for a pre-raid geared alt for tanking heroics and OT'ing Kara/ZA. Given the incoming damage of T5/T6 opponents on OTs, 17/3/41 certainly seems like a top choice for raiding OTs due to all the extra survivability goodies.
There is no question that weapon mastery should be taken. I was suggesting that you should get both percision AND weapon mastery and take the points from IMP execute.
While the majority of our damage is from specials, it is the white damage that we do that fuels our ability to do those specials. The more we miss, the less rage we have to spend on yellow attacks. That is why we see a dps loss when we take the points from precision and leave the points in IMP execute. If you are not rage starved at all, then by all means drop the points in precision. IF you are barely covering your move rotations it does not seem like a very good move IMO
While the majority of our damage is from specials, it is the white damage that we do that fuels our ability to do those specials. The more we miss, the less rage we have to spend on yellow attacks. That is why we see a dps loss when we take the points from precision and leave the points in IMP execute. If you are not rage starved at all, then by all means drop the points in precision. IF you are barely covering your move rotations it does not seem like a very good move IMO
I'm in a guild currently raiding BT, and in all honesty, being one of the prot warriors, (ot'ing mainly) it's quite frustrating being 'useless' (as we can't really dps) in most encounters, with the exception of gurtogg, supremus and maybe azgalor. With the introduction of increased threat for MS/BT in this patch, i'm thinking about speccing something like 0/41/20 or 5/41/15 to give it a shot and see if it's a viable raiding spec for high end at all. Even if this increase in threat for bloodthirst will not make it anywhere as good as SS, i wonder if this change in tactical mastery can 'balance it out', if you will, and make it possible to keep up with the threat on encounters like gurtogg and at the same time making it possible to mitigate enough damage to hold it. In a way, do you think the new tactical mastery, defiance and weapon mastery can make us the new 'feral druids'?
Has anybody that did a few bosses (especially Gorefiend) in BT have any thoughts or numbers on the changes as to our DPS? Our guild ran SSC tonight to attune a couple resto shamans, and I really can't rate the DPS change, since it's been so long since we did SSC that my gear's changed dramatically and I just don't remember what I normally did on a certain boss.
To me, it felt really lackluster. For instance, I really felt that I could have put out another 100 DPS or more on Morogrim (the only real tank and spank in the instance, I wasn't in for Lurker) if I had had Death Wish coupled with Haste Pots, Drums and Heroism, as opposed to those without Death Wish. Sure, whirlwind was nice and jumped up a couple percent of my total damage, and I was getting 0-4% dodge on my attacks, but I really don't think it made up for it.
So, does anybody have any "I did this on x last week and did this on x this week and here's the difference" WWS reports yet?
To me, it felt really lackluster. For instance, I really felt that I could have put out another 100 DPS or more on Morogrim (the only real tank and spank in the instance, I wasn't in for Lurker) if I had had Death Wish coupled with Haste Pots, Drums and Heroism, as opposed to those without Death Wish. Sure, whirlwind was nice and jumped up a couple percent of my total damage, and I was getting 0-4% dodge on my attacks, but I really don't think it made up for it.
So, does anybody have any "I did this on x last week and did this on x this week and here's the difference" WWS reports yet?
I ran Hyjal tonight and like you had that feeling like I was missing a trinket or timer CD (DW) haha.
I normally have an Enh Shaman in my group, but didn't for either Rage or Anetheron. I felt like I was doing substantially less DPS, but checked the WWS and was probably around 50-100 dps less than I normally would've been. Part of that is the lack of WF and Bloodlust, but all in all I'm going to have to get back into a new groove. The server crashed in the 1st wave of Kaz'Rogal so we quit there.
We had an Executioneer Pattern drop horde side tonight, but I'm going to wait for some numbers before I reenchant my Rising Tide ...since I enchanted it with Mongoose last week >_> haha.
I will say with trash in Hyjal my DPS was significantly higher as SS/WW/Cleave combo was putting up some gaudy numbers. I fear however that Blizzard knew this would happen and would only use this to try and appease the ones that really see our single target DPS suffer with "Well, you are doing more damage when it doesn't really matter, eh?"
I normally have an Enh Shaman in my group, but didn't for either Rage or Anetheron. I felt like I was doing substantially less DPS, but checked the WWS and was probably around 50-100 dps less than I normally would've been. Part of that is the lack of WF and Bloodlust, but all in all I'm going to have to get back into a new groove. The server crashed in the 1st wave of Kaz'Rogal so we quit there.
We had an Executioneer Pattern drop horde side tonight, but I'm going to wait for some numbers before I reenchant my Rising Tide ...since I enchanted it with Mongoose last week >_> haha.
I will say with trash in Hyjal my DPS was significantly higher as SS/WW/Cleave combo was putting up some gaudy numbers. I fear however that Blizzard knew this would happen and would only use this to try and appease the ones that really see our single target DPS suffer with "Well, you are doing more damage when it doesn't really matter, eh?"
Edited onPatch 2.3.0
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Originally Posted by zaon
Here are my exact numbers for different setups with what I consider decent gear (10% hit, 2900 AP, 35% crit, Wicked Edge + S2 slow axe -- this would be the prot stats, add another 600 or so AP for a full fury setup with commanding presence/rampage/imp zerk):
17/3/41 (full prot, 1/3 imp shield, impale, 5/5 vit, 5/5 1h spec) - 1177DPS ** 0/20/41 (full prot same as above but sacrificing all arms for 5/5 dual wield) - 1232DPS 5/41/15 (1/3 precision, 5/5 dw spec, 2/2 weap mast, 0/2 imp execute) - 1278DPS 0/46/15 (everything you need for dps in fury) - 1306DPS 17/41/3 (0/3 precision) - 1315DPS 17/44 (all but 0/2 imp execute) - 1355DPS ** - this build is impractical because you lose 5/5 parry and 3/3 imp TC as a protection spec Also keep in mind that deep wounds is not modeled in the spreadsheet. That is usually around 3% of my dps so you can safely add ~30dps to specs that have it. The problem with the 5/41/15 spec is that you do maybe 80DPS (roughly 7%) more than a 17/3/41 protection spec and you still can't MT any fights and still have a rough time OT a lot of fights. Is that small boost worth it? I don't know for others, but for me it probably isn't (I tank probably 60-70% of the time and right now that often means respeccing because not having improved shield block/shield slam threat is a no go, whereas when I DPS the other 30-40% of the time a loss of 10% of my dps is not going to cost the fight). |
Moified version of the warrior dps spreadsheet (From the test version)
Can't guarantee values are 100% correct but they do match the values I saw when testing 17/44/0 and 11/5/44 respectively. A bonus for the 5-man group on the side of devastate dps is the sunder debuff when using a paladin or druid as tank, which would prbably make protection dps just as vialble as fury (if you disregard potential aggro issues).
Last edited by Kyaska : 11/14/07 at 4:27 AM.
Hi, I am currently specced 17/44/0 and starting SSC/TK. My dps is around 650ish most times which i feel is not performing to what i would expect. I use BT and WW everytime it is up and try to incorporate HS whenever possible. I would appreciate some pointers from the more experienced guys? This is the latest WWS.
Krav - WWS
Krav - WWS
Edited onPatch 2.3.0
hi there
i was reading a bit.. and now i am wondering..
i have acctualy 3 weapons.. and dont know which to use in 2.3
i was raiding with Dragonstrike(MH)+Fang of Vashj(in OH) on both wpns i have mongoose
recently i looted Syphon of the Nathrezim and i am not sure which kombo to use
if Syphon of the Nathrezim + Fang or Dragonstike + Syphon in OH
on Syphon i dont have enchant yet.. but want to put there executioner
question 2: are those weapons ok or should i bid for RisingTide or Rod of the Sun King as well?
[i dont want to be greedy biath, but i am :P((add2 we dont have FFA looting so i as a DPS warrior can ussualy pick all maces/axes for min bids cause we dont have raiding enha shaman with rank like i have and rogues cant bid on mace cause its offspec for them in raids ]
i was reading a bit.. and now i am wondering..
i have acctualy 3 weapons.. and dont know which to use in 2.3
i was raiding with Dragonstrike(MH)+Fang of Vashj(in OH) on both wpns i have mongoose
recently i looted Syphon of the Nathrezim and i am not sure which kombo to use
if Syphon of the Nathrezim + Fang or Dragonstike + Syphon in OH
on Syphon i dont have enchant yet.. but want to put there executioner
question 2: are those weapons ok or should i bid for RisingTide or Rod of the Sun King as well?
[i dont want to be greedy biath, but i am :P((add2 we dont have FFA looting so i as a DPS warrior can ussualy pick all maces/axes for min bids cause we dont have raiding enha shaman with rank like i have and rogues cant bid on mace cause its offspec for them in raids ]Last edited by cheat2 : 11/14/07 at 4:00 AM.
I'd stick with Dragonstrike and add a slow OH vs the dagger.
Hey guys, I was thinking to switch to a pure 2h Fury build. I am 33/28 atm.
Reasons for thinking about fury atm are two things:
I still use gorehowl as weapon and think that my bloodthirst with my equip (SSC/TK/Hyjal/BT, AP is raidbuffed a bit over 3100 with 33/28) will be higher than the MS with Gorehowl. Second I really like the new imp Bersi stance with the aggroreduce.
Rigth now I`m not quite sure where iI should put my last point e.g. do I skill 20/41 or 21/40
Pros 20/41: I think more overall dmg
Cons: Like describe some posts above keeping rampage up could be a pain in the ass, because you only have one chance to use it every 24 seconds if you want to keep your cycle.
Pros 21/40: with deathwish you can trigger 20% dmg more for 30 seconds when needed because of a bossphase where its all about pure dps. and the phase must be over quick again.
You get an additional fearward with Deathwish. If needed you can put points into hit, so you can use other equip.
Cons: Overall a little bit less dmg, but I think that you migth loose some dmg because you have to use rampage out of your slam cycle. And that leads to a broken slam cycle and to weaker dmg.
Reasons for thinking about fury atm are two things:
I still use gorehowl as weapon and think that my bloodthirst with my equip (SSC/TK/Hyjal/BT, AP is raidbuffed a bit over 3100 with 33/28) will be higher than the MS with Gorehowl. Second I really like the new imp Bersi stance with the aggroreduce.
Rigth now I`m not quite sure where iI should put my last point e.g. do I skill 20/41 or 21/40
Pros 20/41: I think more overall dmg
Cons: Like describe some posts above keeping rampage up could be a pain in the ass, because you only have one chance to use it every 24 seconds if you want to keep your cycle.
Pros 21/40: with deathwish you can trigger 20% dmg more for 30 seconds when needed because of a bossphase where its all about pure dps. and the phase must be over quick again.
You get an additional fearward with Deathwish. If needed you can put points into hit, so you can use other equip.
Cons: Overall a little bit less dmg, but I think that you migth loose some dmg because you have to use rampage out of your slam cycle. And that leads to a broken slam cycle and to weaker dmg.
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Originally Posted by Krav
Hi, I am currently specced 17/44/0 and starting SSC/TK. My dps is around 650ish most times which i feel is not performing to what i would expect. I use BT and WW everytime it is up and try to incorporate HS whenever possible. I would appreciate some pointers from the more experienced guys? This is the latest WWS.
Krav - WWS |
We ran ZA last night so it was hard to really gauge my DPS, not having been there before and being unable to be in a stacked DPS group.
It felt like I was behind though.
Sweeping Strikes+WW with both hands is cool but losing Deathwish really sucked and was extremely noticeable from 20 to 0 on bosses.
Weapon Mastery is sweet but giving up Imp Execute for it...makes it not as sweet obviously.
Also did Imp Berserker Stance at one point on test have the increased damage taken in Berserker stance lifted? I could have sworn I read accounts of that. Because it definitely does not do that on live.
They need to make some positive changes to Fury or the spec really has no role going forward, long term. As of right now if you are building a raid or a guild from the ground up, why would you indulge a Fury Warrior? What does he bring over Arms besides a little bit more personal DPS that is easily offset by the Bloodfrenzy debuff?
It felt like I was behind though.
Sweeping Strikes+WW with both hands is cool but losing Deathwish really sucked and was extremely noticeable from 20 to 0 on bosses.
Weapon Mastery is sweet but giving up Imp Execute for it...makes it not as sweet obviously.
Also did Imp Berserker Stance at one point on test have the increased damage taken in Berserker stance lifted? I could have sworn I read accounts of that. Because it definitely does not do that on live.
They need to make some positive changes to Fury or the spec really has no role going forward, long term. As of right now if you are building a raid or a guild from the ground up, why would you indulge a Fury Warrior? What does he bring over Arms besides a little bit more personal DPS that is easily offset by the Bloodfrenzy debuff?
They reverted that particular aspect of the Imp Berserker Stance change Hozz. It existed on the PTR for a few pushes and was gone in the last recent push.
| They need to make some positive changes to Fury or the spec really has no role going forward, long term. As of right now if you are building a raid or a guild from the ground up, why would you indulge a Fury Warrior? What does he bring over Arms besides a little bit more personal DPS that is easily offset by the Bloodfrenzy debuff? |
More and more I'm tempted to spec MS and just go with it. Blood Frenzy, Death wish and far better PvP viability all in 1 go. It's getting harder to pass up.
Okay, now for my observations last night in our SSC clear. (Our guild has killed Kael and Rage once if you care about our progression level). I'm also pretty insanely gear by our guild's standards...having virtually every drop from SSC/TK and PvP item i could ever want.
Boss dps; Don't have a WWS posted yet, and i had to off-tank Hydross so...
Lurker, seemed like less then normal due to the whole single target no DW aspect.
Leo should have been equal or better on first thought due to agro reduction, but i think i was significantly less because of timed haste pot/DW on demon phase. Plus the paladins forgot to give me salv, and i didn't notice until like 12%.
Fathom Lord; I actually got to DPS him tonight for only the second time in 4 months, and i was first on DPS until we got to Fathom Lord himself. SS/Cleave/Whirlwind really rips up the DPS meter when you are attacking totems/add and pet/add. Single targeting Priest and Fathom Lord himself saw me drop to second place behind our top rogue. Didn't use my bulwark armor buff and recklessness though.
Tidewalker; I was actually lower on the DPS meter then usual, but i think i managed more DPS. Had our fastest kill ever on him last night so a lot of people stepped it up. Probably my highest personal dps on him ever...but again, SS/Cleave/WW on the murlocs = ROFL dps.
Vashj; Less then usual, no doubt in my mind. I usually cover a quadrant, and while the new WW is super nice and improves it's rage efficiency HUGELY, I occasionally popped DW to catch up on elementals if i had a bad miss streak or had to squish a tainted....the loss of that option just had me praying for lots of crits and no misses.
Trash; Probably slightly better. When i could coax the tanks to put 2 mobs side by side i would tear it up...but the opportunities for that are few and far between.
Overall? I'll adapt as usual....but I'm missing DW, that's for sure. Probably a slight loss to boss dps (2-5%) and a nice gain on multi-mob/boss add fights. I kind of had to laugh when I was describing the changes to others in the guild and said that I'm basically an "AoE specced Warrior" now.
OH! I managed to get an executioner enchant on my main-hand last night, so I'll test that out in TK tonight and see how it goes...I expect a better then usual showing on VR and Solarian, and worse then usual on KT.
We ran Hyjal/BT last night. Due to a recent lack of bears I was roped into offtanking trash out of necessity so I didn't use Sweeping Strikes much. Things were going really great on Archimonde until I took an airburst, missed the Intercept back, floated far, far away and landed square in the middle of a doomfire. I was too far away from the healers so it was a pretty sweet death so I really can't speak for my Arch numbers.
At Teron Gorefiend there was a server crash at 9% so we called it a night. It looks like I'm doing noticeably less damage, but then again I was fresh out of haste potions as well. Last night's Teron 9% had me at 1648 dps according to WWS, and last week I did 1750. Recently we've only had 2 paladins per raid so I don't get BoM these days, and lack of bears means no LotP.
On the upside my threat was waaaay down. Also our Shade of Akama did indeed glitch out and the spirit began walking towards Akama the instant we started the event. The whole fight lasted ~30 seconds. I'll stare at our WWS logs more after I'm off work today.
At Teron Gorefiend there was a server crash at 9% so we called it a night. It looks like I'm doing noticeably less damage, but then again I was fresh out of haste potions as well. Last night's Teron 9% had me at 1648 dps according to WWS, and last week I did 1750. Recently we've only had 2 paladins per raid so I don't get BoM these days, and lack of bears means no LotP.
On the upside my threat was waaaay down. Also our Shade of Akama did indeed glitch out and the spirit began walking towards Akama the instant we started the event. The whole fight lasted ~30 seconds. I'll stare at our WWS logs more after I'm off work today.
Hey guys, with the new patch, i still have some question about what weapon to use as a fury.
I do understand that with the new WW, having a slow OH might up our dps, but it also mean that we wont have a " quick fix rage incoming" as we used to have with a fast OH.
Well anyway here is my question.
I do have a few weapons and i would like your advice as wich combo i should use.
- Swiftsteel Bludgeon (Swiftsteel Bludgeon - Items - World of Warcraft)
- Syphon of the Nathrezim (Syphon of the Nathrezim - Items - World of Warcraft)
- Dragonstrike (Dragonstrike - Items - World of Warcraft)
- Rising tide (Rising Tide - Items - World of Warcraft)
Tho in a few month i will probably use some S3 weapon.
I do understand that with the new WW, having a slow OH might up our dps, but it also mean that we wont have a " quick fix rage incoming" as we used to have with a fast OH.
Well anyway here is my question.
I do have a few weapons and i would like your advice as wich combo i should use.
- Swiftsteel Bludgeon (Swiftsteel Bludgeon - Items - World of Warcraft)
- Syphon of the Nathrezim (Syphon of the Nathrezim - Items - World of Warcraft)
- Dragonstrike (Dragonstrike - Items - World of Warcraft)
- Rising tide (Rising Tide - Items - World of Warcraft)
Tho in a few month i will probably use some S3 weapon.
Your best bet is still a Dragonstrike MH, nothing changed about that in this patch. OH I think Rising Tide and SS Bludgeon would be about equal since they were for me in my spreadsheet the other day and im pretty sure the same would count for you unless you have a wildly diffirent stat balance. Anyway, if they barely differ from eachother, I'd still go with the fast one for, as you say, smoother rage generation. Also, I think Rising Tide is butt ugly 
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Originally Posted by LodeRunner
We ran Hyjal/BT last night. Due to a recent lack of bears I was roped into offtanking trash out of necessity so I didn't use Sweeping Strikes much. Things were going really great on Archimonde until I took an airburst, missed the Intercept back, floated far, far away and landed square in the middle of a doomfire. I was too far away from the healers so it was a pretty sweet death so I really can't speak for my Arch numbers.
At Teron Gorefiend there was a server crash at 9% so we called it a night. It looks like I'm doing noticeably less damage, but then again I was fresh out of haste potions as well. Last night's Teron 9% had me at 1648 dps according to WWS, and last week I did 1750. Recently we've only had 2 paladins per raid so I don't get BoM these days, and lack of bears means no LotP. On the upside my threat was waaaay down. Also our Shade of Akama did indeed glitch out and the spirit began walking towards Akama the instant we started the event. The whole fight lasted ~30 seconds. I'll stare at our WWS logs more after I'm off work today. |
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Originally Posted by Danath
Well with no BoM and LotP it is difficult to actually compare. We need serious data
|
Quick Question, as I'm sure it's been asked, but I'm not really looking forward to reading 50+ pages.
In patch 2.3 Mongoose and Executioner for a Fury warrior, I've kind of done some small math in my head, and think that getting a MH and an OH slower weapon (2.6+) and putting Mongoose on the Main hand and Executioner on the Offhand is the best way to go because of the change to Whirlwind.
I could be wrong, please someone let me know what you've found/think.
Thanks.
In patch 2.3 Mongoose and Executioner for a Fury warrior, I've kind of done some small math in my head, and think that getting a MH and an OH slower weapon (2.6+) and putting Mongoose on the Main hand and Executioner on the Offhand is the best way to go because of the change to Whirlwind.
I could be wrong, please someone let me know what you've found/think.
Thanks.
Because of Server issues we only did gruul last night. I had a Ret Pally, A Feral Druid, and a Enh Shamen. It took a little while to get adjusted to the changes in play and to the new spell ques. However I found that I was easily able to maintain 976 dps on Gruul which is an increase of around 30-60 dps for me. I think that once I adjust to everything I will be able to hit 1k easy. We do TK tonight so I will see what happens there, but I am leaning toward the we got a definate dps increase option.
For those interested
My white damage was 46%
My Heroic Strikes were 19%
My blood thirst was 15.5%
execute was around 10%
and my whirlwind was 8.9
I really need to get wws to work.
For those interested
My white damage was 46%
My Heroic Strikes were 19%
My blood thirst was 15.5%
execute was around 10%
and my whirlwind was 8.9
I really need to get wws to work.
I have my first 25-man raid since the patch tonight and intend to stick with my 17/44 build even with the loss of deathwish. I had a question regarding sweeping strikes if any of you used it last night. I was wondering if it counted as a special attack in a way that you got your reduced miss rate and your 20% increased damage from Impale while it was up? If so, it seems like it might be that much more of a damage buff for 30 rage to keep it up even while on a single target. I doubt if I will use SS on trash much, I don't care to be the guy breaking CC. I guess it will be cool to buff my damage with it on the trash packs up to Solarian, but that's about the only place I can think of to use it.
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Originally Posted by Kemeran
I have my first 25-man raid since the patch tonight and intend to stick with my 17/44 build even with the loss of deathwish. I had a question regarding sweeping strikes if any of you used it last night. I was wondering if it counted as a special attack in a way that you got your reduced miss rate and your 20% increased damage from Impale while it was up? If so, it seems like it might be that much more of a damage buff for 30 rage to keep it up even while on a single target. I doubt if I will use SS on trash much, I don't care to be the guy breaking CC. I guess it will be cool to buff my damage with it on the trash packs up to Solarian, but that's about the only place I can think of to use it.
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Anyway seemingly Sweeping Strikes counts as a special attack.
Adding to 2.3 testimonies on the 17/44 build.
AE Damage is up on trash mobs, any fight with adds.
Single target Damage on bosses is noticeably down.
AE Damage is up on trash mobs, any fight with adds.
Single target Damage on bosses is noticeably down.
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Originally Posted by Duranthor
It took a little while to get adjusted to the changes in play and to the new spell ques.
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Humans using a sword + mace combo are getting 10 expertise on live. I don't know if this is an instance where the game shows 10 expertise in the character screen, and in reality only 5 expertise per weapon is actually applied, but based on data from last night, I would guess that the 10 expertise is applied globally to all attacks.
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Originally Posted by Apate
One of us is confused, can you elaborate please?
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Hawkk, I so wish I had rolled a freaken human /cry
edit: I am a tard and can't read.
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Originally Posted by Duranthor
Because of Server issues we only did gruul last night. I had a Ret Pally, A Feral Druid, and a Enh Shamen. It took a little while to get adjusted to the changes in play and to the new spell ques. However I found that I was easily able to maintain 976 dps on Gruul which is an increase of around 30-60 dps for me. I think that once I adjust to everything I will be able to hit 1k easy. We do TK tonight so I will see what happens there, but I am leaning toward the we got a definate dps increase option.
For those interested My white damage was 46% My Heroic Strikes were 19% My blood thirst was 15.5% execute was around 10% and my whirlwind was 8.9 I really need to get wws to work. |
Not sure if you're doing this, but don't make the mistake of assuming that your heroic strike skill is actually account for 19% of your damage.
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Originally Posted by Nezralix
I think your Whirlwinds shouldn't be doing quite so much less than your Bloodthirst; the math adds up such it that it should be approximately equal, cooldown differences aside. This is probably a consequence of using weapons that are way too fast. Slower weapons have always been better in terms of making efficient use of Flurry swings, but now WW provides an added incentive.
Not sure if you're doing this, but don't make the mistake of assuming that your heroic strike skill is actually account for 19% of your damage. |
Futher, As long as the weapons you use are not daggers, the loss of whirlwind damage due to weapon top end should be more than made up for in over all dps. I do not subscribe to using lower DPS weapons just because they may have a higher top end theory. My personal Theory is that the reason WW is so much lower is because BT is on a 6 cool down while WW is on a 9. As your attack power gets higher, your BT damage will just be better. For example, let’s assume 3500 ATP which is more than reasonable. Every 6 seconds you will hit for 1575 with your blood thirst or 4725 damage every 18 seconds. You whirlwind hits with both weapons lets take myself for 600 MH 450 OH or 2100 damage every 18 seconds. There should be no way that your WW damage should even equate to more than 50% of whatever your BT damage with raid buffed ATP as ATP should always stay ahead of weapon damage by a significant amount. My personal numbers support this. I could be horribly horribly wrong and if so, I would love to be corrected.
Finally, if my tracker says that 19% of my damage is from heroic strike, how can you do anything but assume that 19% of my damage is from heroic strike? Is there something I am not accounting for?
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Originally Posted by Krav
Hi, I am currently specced 17/44/0 and starting SSC/TK. My dps is around 650ish most times which i feel is not performing to what i would expect. I use BT and WW everytime it is up and try to incorporate HS whenever possible. I would appreciate some pointers from the more experienced guys? This is the latest WWS.
Krav - WWS |
In addition to others' comments of your report I think that you are wasting rage by using rampage too often. I generally don't refresh mine until the buff is down to eight seconds.
If you are going to use potions I suggest haste potions.
I have mixed feelings about the recent patch changes. On one hand I hate losing Deathwish, not only the potential DPS loss but the fact that I could choose when to do burst damage, and could pair it with a DPS trinket or Fetish of the Sandreaver if I wanted to. On the other side, the new SS is pretty much awesome and my DPS doesn't seem to have gone down.
VOID REAVER-
Post-2.3: Wow Web Stats
I'm (Amelio) in a group with other DPS Warriors and no Shaman. The Enhancement Shaman, BM Hunter, and Rogue are in the MT group with a Feral Druid and Prot Warrior running Battle Shout, so pretty stacked group for them.
Pre-2.3: Wow Web Stats
I'm in a group with Enhancement Shaman, so my DPS is slightly higher overall. Only 80 DPS difference which could be easily attributed to having totems with me. (EDIT: Also was offhanding Mericless 1.4 spd dagger instead of Rod of the Sun King.)
SOLARIAN-
Post-2.3: Wow Web Stats
I'm with Enhancement Shaman and Feral Druid. My DPS spiked as high as 1800 when I popped SS on the adds.
Pre-2.3: Wow Web Stats
I'm with Enhancement Shaman and Feral Druid again, so same group makeup. A huge 300 DPS less, potentially the new SS is a big part of this, but I lost Deathwish during Heroism, so I'm not sure. (EDIT: Also was offhanding Mericless 1.4 spd dagger instead of Rod of the Sun King.)
At the very least, I don't see that Fury Warriors were hurt all that much, if at all. Our role has changed slightly, but I don't see why a guild would want us any less. I do have to admit we run a strange setup with 4 DPS warriors and only 1 Rogue currently, with 2 Feral Druids who like to tank most fights. In guilds that run with only a few Warriors, a couple Prot and one MS for Blood Frenzy, I could see where a Rogue would be more appealing than more Warriors. I say you go with what you got, if you have exceptional Warriors, no reason to try to replace them.
I do have a question about hit rating. It's generally considered that once you have 9-10% hit from gear it's not necessarily that great to stack more at the expense of other stats. Now what if you are mainhanding Dragonstrike and offhanding Rod of the Sun King.... would it be worth it to stack hit heavily for the sake of the Sun King proc? Would Sun King be better mainhand than Dragonstrike? I don't believe the DPS spreadsheets handle this proc, feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.
VOID REAVER-
Post-2.3: Wow Web Stats
I'm (Amelio) in a group with other DPS Warriors and no Shaman. The Enhancement Shaman, BM Hunter, and Rogue are in the MT group with a Feral Druid and Prot Warrior running Battle Shout, so pretty stacked group for them.
Pre-2.3: Wow Web Stats
I'm in a group with Enhancement Shaman, so my DPS is slightly higher overall. Only 80 DPS difference which could be easily attributed to having totems with me. (EDIT: Also was offhanding Mericless 1.4 spd dagger instead of Rod of the Sun King.)
SOLARIAN-
Post-2.3: Wow Web Stats
I'm with Enhancement Shaman and Feral Druid. My DPS spiked as high as 1800 when I popped SS on the adds.
Pre-2.3: Wow Web Stats
I'm with Enhancement Shaman and Feral Druid again, so same group makeup. A huge 300 DPS less, potentially the new SS is a big part of this, but I lost Deathwish during Heroism, so I'm not sure. (EDIT: Also was offhanding Mericless 1.4 spd dagger instead of Rod of the Sun King.)
At the very least, I don't see that Fury Warriors were hurt all that much, if at all. Our role has changed slightly, but I don't see why a guild would want us any less. I do have to admit we run a strange setup with 4 DPS warriors and only 1 Rogue currently, with 2 Feral Druids who like to tank most fights. In guilds that run with only a few Warriors, a couple Prot and one MS for Blood Frenzy, I could see where a Rogue would be more appealing than more Warriors. I say you go with what you got, if you have exceptional Warriors, no reason to try to replace them.
I do have a question about hit rating. It's generally considered that once you have 9-10% hit from gear it's not necessarily that great to stack more at the expense of other stats. Now what if you are mainhanding Dragonstrike and offhanding Rod of the Sun King.... would it be worth it to stack hit heavily for the sake of the Sun King proc? Would Sun King be better mainhand than Dragonstrike? I don't believe the DPS spreadsheets handle this proc, feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.
Edited onPatch 2.3.0
hi there
i was reading a bit.. and now i am wondering..
i have acctualy 3 weapons.. and dont know which to use in 2.3
i was raiding with Dragonstrike(MH)+Fang of Vashj(in OH) on both wpns i have mongoose
recently i looted Syphon of the Nathrezim and i am not sure which kombo to use
if Syphon of the Nathrezim + Fang or Dragonstike + Syphon in OH
on Syphon i dont have enchant yet.. but want to put there executioner
question 2: are those weapons ok or should i bid for RisingTide or Rod of the Sun King as well? [i dont want to be greedy biath, but i am :P((add2 we dont have FFA looting so i as a DPS warrior can ussualy pick all maces/axes for min bids cause we dont have raiding enha shaman with rank like i have and rogues cant bid on mace cause its offspec for them in raids ]
i was reading a bit.. and now i am wondering..
i have acctualy 3 weapons.. and dont know which to use in 2.3
i was raiding with Dragonstrike(MH)+Fang of Vashj(in OH) on both wpns i have mongoose
recently i looted Syphon of the Nathrezim and i am not sure which kombo to use
if Syphon of the Nathrezim + Fang or Dragonstike + Syphon in OH
on Syphon i dont have enchant yet.. but want to put there executioner
question 2: are those weapons ok or should i bid for RisingTide or Rod of the Sun King as well?
[i dont want to be greedy biath, but i am :P((add2 we dont have FFA looting so i as a DPS warrior can ussualy pick all maces/axes for min bids cause we dont have raiding enha shaman with rank like i have and rogues cant bid on mace cause its offspec for them in raids ]Last edited by cheat2 : 11/14/07 at 4:00 AM.
I'd stick with Dragonstrike and add a slow OH vs the dagger.
Hey guys, I was thinking to switch to a pure 2h Fury build. I am 33/28 atm.
Reasons for thinking about fury atm are two things:
I still use gorehowl as weapon and think that my bloodthirst with my equip (SSC/TK/Hyjal/BT, AP is raidbuffed a bit over 3100 with 33/28) will be higher than the MS with Gorehowl. Second I really like the new imp Bersi stance with the aggroreduce.
Rigth now I`m not quite sure where iI should put my last point e.g. do I skill 20/41 or 21/40
Pros 20/41: I think more overall dmg
Cons: Like describe some posts above keeping rampage up could be a pain in the ass, because you only have one chance to use it every 24 seconds if you want to keep your cycle.
Pros 21/40: with deathwish you can trigger 20% dmg more for 30 seconds when needed because of a bossphase where its all about pure dps. and the phase must be over quick again.
You get an additional fearward with Deathwish. If needed you can put points into hit, so you can use other equip.
Cons: Overall a little bit less dmg, but I think that you migth loose some dmg because you have to use rampage out of your slam cycle. And that leads to a broken slam cycle and to weaker dmg.
Reasons for thinking about fury atm are two things:
I still use gorehowl as weapon and think that my bloodthirst with my equip (SSC/TK/Hyjal/BT, AP is raidbuffed a bit over 3100 with 33/28) will be higher than the MS with Gorehowl. Second I really like the new imp Bersi stance with the aggroreduce.
Rigth now I`m not quite sure where iI should put my last point e.g. do I skill 20/41 or 21/40
Pros 20/41: I think more overall dmg
Cons: Like describe some posts above keeping rampage up could be a pain in the ass, because you only have one chance to use it every 24 seconds if you want to keep your cycle.
Pros 21/40: with deathwish you can trigger 20% dmg more for 30 seconds when needed because of a bossphase where its all about pure dps. and the phase must be over quick again.
You get an additional fearward with Deathwish. If needed you can put points into hit, so you can use other equip.
Cons: Overall a little bit less dmg, but I think that you migth loose some dmg because you have to use rampage out of your slam cycle. And that leads to a broken slam cycle and to weaker dmg.
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Originally Posted by Krav
Hi, I am currently specced 17/44/0 and starting SSC/TK. My dps is around 650ish most times which i feel is not performing to what i would expect. I use BT and WW everytime it is up and try to incorporate HS whenever possible. I would appreciate some pointers from the more experienced guys? This is the latest WWS.
Krav - WWS |
We ran ZA last night so it was hard to really gauge my DPS, not having been there before and being unable to be in a stacked DPS group.
It felt like I was behind though.
Sweeping Strikes+WW with both hands is cool but losing Deathwish really sucked and was extremely noticeable from 20 to 0 on bosses.
Weapon Mastery is sweet but giving up Imp Execute for it...makes it not as sweet obviously.
Also did Imp Berserker Stance at one point on test have the increased damage taken in Berserker stance lifted? I could have sworn I read accounts of that. Because it definitely does not do that on live.
They need to make some positive changes to Fury or the spec really has no role going forward, long term. As of right now if you are building a raid or a guild from the ground up, why would you indulge a Fury Warrior? What does he bring over Arms besides a little bit more personal DPS that is easily offset by the Bloodfrenzy debuff?
It felt like I was behind though.
Sweeping Strikes+WW with both hands is cool but losing Deathwish really sucked and was extremely noticeable from 20 to 0 on bosses.
Weapon Mastery is sweet but giving up Imp Execute for it...makes it not as sweet obviously.
Also did Imp Berserker Stance at one point on test have the increased damage taken in Berserker stance lifted? I could have sworn I read accounts of that. Because it definitely does not do that on live.
They need to make some positive changes to Fury or the spec really has no role going forward, long term. As of right now if you are building a raid or a guild from the ground up, why would you indulge a Fury Warrior? What does he bring over Arms besides a little bit more personal DPS that is easily offset by the Bloodfrenzy debuff?
They reverted that particular aspect of the Imp Berserker Stance change Hozz. It existed on the PTR for a few pushes and was gone in the last recent push.
| They need to make some positive changes to Fury or the spec really has no role going forward, long term. As of right now if you are building a raid or a guild from the ground up, why would you indulge a Fury Warrior? What does he bring over Arms besides a little bit more personal DPS that is easily offset by the Bloodfrenzy debuff? |
More and more I'm tempted to spec MS and just go with it. Blood Frenzy, Death wish and far better PvP viability all in 1 go. It's getting harder to pass up.
Okay, now for my observations last night in our SSC clear. (Our guild has killed Kael and Rage once if you care about our progression level). I'm also pretty insanely gear by our guild's standards...having virtually every drop from SSC/TK and PvP item i could ever want.
Boss dps; Don't have a WWS posted yet, and i had to off-tank Hydross so...
Lurker, seemed like less then normal due to the whole single target no DW aspect.
Leo should have been equal or better on first thought due to agro reduction, but i think i was significantly less because of timed haste pot/DW on demon phase. Plus the paladins forgot to give me salv, and i didn't notice until like 12%.
Fathom Lord; I actually got to DPS him tonight for only the second time in 4 months, and i was first on DPS until we got to Fathom Lord himself. SS/Cleave/Whirlwind really rips up the DPS meter when you are attacking totems/add and pet/add. Single targeting Priest and Fathom Lord himself saw me drop to second place behind our top rogue. Didn't use my bulwark armor buff and recklessness though.
Tidewalker; I was actually lower on the DPS meter then usual, but i think i managed more DPS. Had our fastest kill ever on him last night so a lot of people stepped it up. Probably my highest personal dps on him ever...but again, SS/Cleave/WW on the murlocs = ROFL dps.
Vashj; Less then usual, no doubt in my mind. I usually cover a quadrant, and while the new WW is super nice and improves it's rage efficiency HUGELY, I occasionally popped DW to catch up on elementals if i had a bad miss streak or had to squish a tainted....the loss of that option just had me praying for lots of crits and no misses.
Trash; Probably slightly better. When i could coax the tanks to put 2 mobs side by side i would tear it up...but the opportunities for that are few and far between.
Overall? I'll adapt as usual....but I'm missing DW, that's for sure. Probably a slight loss to boss dps (2-5%) and a nice gain on multi-mob/boss add fights. I kind of had to laugh when I was describing the changes to others in the guild and said that I'm basically an "AoE specced Warrior" now.
OH! I managed to get an executioner enchant on my main-hand last night, so I'll test that out in TK tonight and see how it goes...I expect a better then usual showing on VR and Solarian, and worse then usual on KT.
We ran Hyjal/BT last night. Due to a recent lack of bears I was roped into offtanking trash out of necessity so I didn't use Sweeping Strikes much. Things were going really great on Archimonde until I took an airburst, missed the Intercept back, floated far, far away and landed square in the middle of a doomfire. I was too far away from the healers so it was a pretty sweet death so I really can't speak for my Arch numbers.
At Teron Gorefiend there was a server crash at 9% so we called it a night. It looks like I'm doing noticeably less damage, but then again I was fresh out of haste potions as well. Last night's Teron 9% had me at 1648 dps according to WWS, and last week I did 1750. Recently we've only had 2 paladins per raid so I don't get BoM these days, and lack of bears means no LotP.
On the upside my threat was waaaay down. Also our Shade of Akama did indeed glitch out and the spirit began walking towards Akama the instant we started the event. The whole fight lasted ~30 seconds. I'll stare at our WWS logs more after I'm off work today.
At Teron Gorefiend there was a server crash at 9% so we called it a night. It looks like I'm doing noticeably less damage, but then again I was fresh out of haste potions as well. Last night's Teron 9% had me at 1648 dps according to WWS, and last week I did 1750. Recently we've only had 2 paladins per raid so I don't get BoM these days, and lack of bears means no LotP.
On the upside my threat was waaaay down. Also our Shade of Akama did indeed glitch out and the spirit began walking towards Akama the instant we started the event. The whole fight lasted ~30 seconds. I'll stare at our WWS logs more after I'm off work today.
Hey guys, with the new patch, i still have some question about what weapon to use as a fury.
I do understand that with the new WW, having a slow OH might up our dps, but it also mean that we wont have a " quick fix rage incoming" as we used to have with a fast OH.
Well anyway here is my question.
I do have a few weapons and i would like your advice as wich combo i should use.
- Swiftsteel Bludgeon (Swiftsteel Bludgeon - Items - World of Warcraft)
- Syphon of the Nathrezim (Syphon of the Nathrezim - Items - World of Warcraft)
- Dragonstrike (Dragonstrike - Items - World of Warcraft)
- Rising tide (Rising Tide - Items - World of Warcraft)
Tho in a few month i will probably use some S3 weapon.
I do understand that with the new WW, having a slow OH might up our dps, but it also mean that we wont have a " quick fix rage incoming" as we used to have with a fast OH.
Well anyway here is my question.
I do have a few weapons and i would like your advice as wich combo i should use.
- Swiftsteel Bludgeon (Swiftsteel Bludgeon - Items - World of Warcraft)
- Syphon of the Nathrezim (Syphon of the Nathrezim - Items - World of Warcraft)
- Dragonstrike (Dragonstrike - Items - World of Warcraft)
- Rising tide (Rising Tide - Items - World of Warcraft)
Tho in a few month i will probably use some S3 weapon.
Your best bet is still a Dragonstrike MH, nothing changed about that in this patch. OH I think Rising Tide and SS Bludgeon would be about equal since they were for me in my spreadsheet the other day and im pretty sure the same would count for you unless you have a wildly diffirent stat balance. Anyway, if they barely differ from eachother, I'd still go with the fast one for, as you say, smoother rage generation. Also, I think Rising Tide is butt ugly
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Originally Posted by LodeRunner
We ran Hyjal/BT last night. Due to a recent lack of bears I was roped into offtanking trash out of necessity so I didn't use Sweeping Strikes much. Things were going really great on Archimonde until I took an airburst, missed the Intercept back, floated far, far away and landed square in the middle of a doomfire. I was too far away from the healers so it was a pretty sweet death so I really can't speak for my Arch numbers.
At Teron Gorefiend there was a server crash at 9% so we called it a night. It looks like I'm doing noticeably less damage, but then again I was fresh out of haste potions as well. Last night's Teron 9% had me at 1648 dps according to WWS, and last week I did 1750. Recently we've only had 2 paladins per raid so I don't get BoM these days, and lack of bears means no LotP. On the upside my threat was waaaay down. Also our Shade of Akama did indeed glitch out and the spirit began walking towards Akama the instant we started the event. The whole fight lasted ~30 seconds. I'll stare at our WWS logs more after I'm off work today. |
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Originally Posted by Danath
Well with no BoM and LotP it is difficult to actually compare. We need serious data
|
Quick Question, as I'm sure it's been asked, but I'm not really looking forward to reading 50+ pages.
In patch 2.3 Mongoose and Executioner for a Fury warrior, I've kind of done some small math in my head, and think that getting a MH and an OH slower weapon (2.6+) and putting Mongoose on the Main hand and Executioner on the Offhand is the best way to go because of the change to Whirlwind.
I could be wrong, please someone let me know what you've found/think.
Thanks.
In patch 2.3 Mongoose and Executioner for a Fury warrior, I've kind of done some small math in my head, and think that getting a MH and an OH slower weapon (2.6+) and putting Mongoose on the Main hand and Executioner on the Offhand is the best way to go because of the change to Whirlwind.
I could be wrong, please someone let me know what you've found/think.
Thanks.
Because of Server issues we only did gruul last night. I had a Ret Pally, A Feral Druid, and a Enh Shamen. It took a little while to get adjusted to the changes in play and to the new spell ques. However I found that I was easily able to maintain 976 dps on Gruul which is an increase of around 30-60 dps for me. I think that once I adjust to everything I will be able to hit 1k easy. We do TK tonight so I will see what happens there, but I am leaning toward the we got a definate dps increase option.
For those interested
My white damage was 46%
My Heroic Strikes were 19%
My blood thirst was 15.5%
execute was around 10%
and my whirlwind was 8.9
I really need to get wws to work.
For those interested
My white damage was 46%
My Heroic Strikes were 19%
My blood thirst was 15.5%
execute was around 10%
and my whirlwind was 8.9
I really need to get wws to work.
I have my first 25-man raid since the patch tonight and intend to stick with my 17/44 build even with the loss of deathwish. I had a question regarding sweeping strikes if any of you used it last night. I was wondering if it counted as a special attack in a way that you got your reduced miss rate and your 20% increased damage from Impale while it was up? If so, it seems like it might be that much more of a damage buff for 30 rage to keep it up even while on a single target. I doubt if I will use SS on trash much, I don't care to be the guy breaking CC. I guess it will be cool to buff my damage with it on the trash packs up to Solarian, but that's about the only place I can think of to use it.
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Originally Posted by Kemeran
I have my first 25-man raid since the patch tonight and intend to stick with my 17/44 build even with the loss of deathwish. I had a question regarding sweeping strikes if any of you used it last night. I was wondering if it counted as a special attack in a way that you got your reduced miss rate and your 20% increased damage from Impale while it was up? If so, it seems like it might be that much more of a damage buff for 30 rage to keep it up even while on a single target. I doubt if I will use SS on trash much, I don't care to be the guy breaking CC. I guess it will be cool to buff my damage with it on the trash packs up to Solarian, but that's about the only place I can think of to use it.
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Anyway seemingly Sweeping Strikes counts as a special attack.
Adding to 2.3 testimonies on the 17/44 build.
AE Damage is up on trash mobs, any fight with adds.
Single target Damage on bosses is noticeably down.
AE Damage is up on trash mobs, any fight with adds.
Single target Damage on bosses is noticeably down.
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Originally Posted by Duranthor
It took a little while to get adjusted to the changes in play and to the new spell ques.
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Humans using a sword + mace combo are getting 10 expertise on live. I don't know if this is an instance where the game shows 10 expertise in the character screen, and in reality only 5 expertise per weapon is actually applied, but based on data from last night, I would guess that the 10 expertise is applied globally to all attacks.
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Originally Posted by Apate
One of us is confused, can you elaborate please?
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Hawkk, I so wish I had rolled a freaken human /cry
edit: I am a tard and can't read.
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Originally Posted by Duranthor
Because of Server issues we only did gruul last night. I had a Ret Pally, A Feral Druid, and a Enh Shamen. It took a little while to get adjusted to the changes in play and to the new spell ques. However I found that I was easily able to maintain 976 dps on Gruul which is an increase of around 30-60 dps for me. I think that once I adjust to everything I will be able to hit 1k easy. We do TK tonight so I will see what happens there, but I am leaning toward the we got a definate dps increase option.
For those interested My white damage was 46% My Heroic Strikes were 19% My blood thirst was 15.5% execute was around 10% and my whirlwind was 8.9 I really need to get wws to work. |
Not sure if you're doing this, but don't make the mistake of assuming that your heroic strike skill is actually account for 19% of your damage.
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Originally Posted by Nezralix
I think your Whirlwinds shouldn't be doing quite so much less than your Bloodthirst; the math adds up such it that it should be approximately equal, cooldown differences aside. This is probably a consequence of using weapons that are way too fast. Slower weapons have always been better in terms of making efficient use of Flurry swings, but now WW provides an added incentive.
Not sure if you're doing this, but don't make the mistake of assuming that your heroic strike skill is actually account for 19% of your damage. |
Futher, As long as the weapons you use are not daggers, the loss of whirlwind damage due to weapon top end should be more than made up for in over all dps. I do not subscribe to using lower DPS weapons just because they may have a higher top end theory. My personal Theory is that the reason WW is so much lower is because BT is on a 6 cool down while WW is on a 9. As your attack power gets higher, your BT damage will just be better. For example, let’s assume 3500 ATP which is more than reasonable. Every 6 seconds you will hit for 1575 with your blood thirst or 4725 damage every 18 seconds. You whirlwind hits with both weapons lets take myself for 600 MH 450 OH or 2100 damage every 18 seconds. There should be no way that your WW damage should even equate to more than 50% of whatever your BT damage with raid buffed ATP as ATP should always stay ahead of weapon damage by a significant amount. My personal numbers support this. I could be horribly horribly wrong and if so, I would love to be corrected.
Finally, if my tracker says that 19% of my damage is from heroic strike, how can you do anything but assume that 19% of my damage is from heroic strike? Is there something I am not accounting for?
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Originally Posted by Krav
Hi, I am currently specced 17/44/0 and starting SSC/TK. My dps is around 650ish most times which i feel is not performing to what i would expect. I use BT and WW everytime it is up and try to incorporate HS whenever possible. I would appreciate some pointers from the more experienced guys? This is the latest WWS.
Krav - WWS |
In addition to others' comments of your report I think that you are wasting rage by using rampage too often. I generally don't refresh mine until the buff is down to eight seconds.
If you are going to use potions I suggest haste potions.
I have mixed feelings about the recent patch changes. On one hand I hate losing Deathwish, not only the potential DPS loss but the fact that I could choose when to do burst damage, and could pair it with a DPS trinket or Fetish of the Sandreaver if I wanted to. On the other side, the new SS is pretty much awesome and my DPS doesn't seem to have gone down.
VOID REAVER-
Post-2.3: Wow Web Stats
I'm (Amelio) in a group with other DPS Warriors and no Shaman. The Enhancement Shaman, BM Hunter, and Rogue are in the MT group with a Feral Druid and Prot Warrior running Battle Shout, so pretty stacked group for them.
Pre-2.3: Wow Web Stats
I'm in a group with Enhancement Shaman, so my DPS is slightly higher overall. Only 80 DPS difference which could be easily attributed to having totems with me. (EDIT: Also was offhanding Mericless 1.4 spd dagger instead of Rod of the Sun King.)
SOLARIAN-
Post-2.3: Wow Web Stats
I'm with Enhancement Shaman and Feral Druid. My DPS spiked as high as 1800 when I popped SS on the adds.
Pre-2.3: Wow Web Stats
I'm with Enhancement Shaman and Feral Druid again, so same group makeup. A huge 300 DPS less, potentially the new SS is a big part of this, but I lost Deathwish during Heroism, so I'm not sure. (EDIT: Also was offhanding Mericless 1.4 spd dagger instead of Rod of the Sun King.)
At the very least, I don't see that Fury Warriors were hurt all that much, if at all. Our role has changed slightly, but I don't see why a guild would want us any less. I do have to admit we run a strange setup with 4 DPS warriors and only 1 Rogue currently, with 2 Feral Druids who like to tank most fights. In guilds that run with only a few Warriors, a couple Prot and one MS for Blood Frenzy, I could see where a Rogue would be more appealing than more Warriors. I say you go with what you got, if you have exceptional Warriors, no reason to try to replace them.
I do have a question about hit rating. It's generally considered that once you have 9-10% hit from gear it's not necessarily that great to stack more at the expense of other stats. Now what if you are mainhanding Dragonstrike and offhanding Rod of the Sun King.... would it be worth it to stack hit heavily for the sake of the Sun King proc? Would Sun King be better mainhand than Dragonstrike? I don't believe the DPS spreadsheets handle this proc, feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.
VOID REAVER-
Post-2.3: Wow Web Stats
I'm (Amelio) in a group with other DPS Warriors and no Shaman. The Enhancement Shaman, BM Hunter, and Rogue are in the MT group with a Feral Druid and Prot Warrior running Battle Shout, so pretty stacked group for them.
Pre-2.3: Wow Web Stats
I'm in a group with Enhancement Shaman, so my DPS is slightly higher overall. Only 80 DPS difference which could be easily attributed to having totems with me. (EDIT: Also was offhanding Mericless 1.4 spd dagger instead of Rod of the Sun King.)
SOLARIAN-
Post-2.3: Wow Web Stats
I'm with Enhancement Shaman and Feral Druid. My DPS spiked as high as 1800 when I popped SS on the adds.
Pre-2.3: Wow Web Stats
I'm with Enhancement Shaman and Feral Druid again, so same group makeup. A huge 300 DPS less, potentially the new SS is a big part of this, but I lost Deathwish during Heroism, so I'm not sure. (EDIT: Also was offhanding Mericless 1.4 spd dagger instead of Rod of the Sun King.)
At the very least, I don't see that Fury Warriors were hurt all that much, if at all. Our role has changed slightly, but I don't see why a guild would want us any less. I do have to admit we run a strange setup with 4 DPS warriors and only 1 Rogue currently, with 2 Feral Druids who like to tank most fights. In guilds that run with only a few Warriors, a couple Prot and one MS for Blood Frenzy, I could see where a Rogue would be more appealing than more Warriors. I say you go with what you got, if you have exceptional Warriors, no reason to try to replace them.
I do have a question about hit rating. It's generally considered that once you have 9-10% hit from gear it's not necessarily that great to stack more at the expense of other stats. Now what if you are mainhanding Dragonstrike and offhanding Rod of the Sun King.... would it be worth it to stack hit heavily for the sake of the Sun King proc? Would Sun King be better mainhand than Dragonstrike? I don't believe the DPS spreadsheets handle this proc, feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.
I agree, no way can WW do as much damage as BT, maybe if you got two great weapons and sub 2000 AP.
As to flurry, I think the "how does flurry work"-thread is quite empty of any hard evidence for slow vs fast, that thread is mainly concerned with the extra flurried attacks you can get by having matched weapon speeds. It is quite clear that slow weapons will give higher flurry uptimes due to having more time to do instants while flurry is up, but it is a quite small effect (about 5% in flurry uptime for a 1.6 vs a 2.6 MH, slightly more for fast/fast setups). Faster weapons will apply flurry faster though (if you lose the buff in a non-crit streak). Caesar modeled it in http://elitistjerks.com/534787-post162.html, I think his calculations are correct.
I'm guessing that Nezralix means that the damage from HS is partly from the white hit and partly from the added damage. However, since pressing HS also makes the swing yellow, I would also report the total damage from HS in the way you have done (making it impossible to find the "true" added damage from HS from a combat log, it can be modeled however). Guess it depends on what you're trying to show.
As to flurry, I think the "how does flurry work"-thread is quite empty of any hard evidence for slow vs fast, that thread is mainly concerned with the extra flurried attacks you can get by having matched weapon speeds. It is quite clear that slow weapons will give higher flurry uptimes due to having more time to do instants while flurry is up, but it is a quite small effect (about 5% in flurry uptime for a 1.6 vs a 2.6 MH, slightly more for fast/fast setups). Faster weapons will apply flurry faster though (if you lose the buff in a non-crit streak). Caesar modeled it in http://elitistjerks.com/534787-post162.html, I think his calculations are correct.
I'm guessing that Nezralix means that the damage from HS is partly from the white hit and partly from the added damage. However, since pressing HS also makes the swing yellow, I would also report the total damage from HS in the way you have done (making it impossible to find the "true" added damage from HS from a combat log, it can be modeled however). Guess it depends on what you're trying to show.
I'm seeing ~ 7-10% DPS nerf on bosses. The threat reduction is certainly convenient for the start of fights.
I should have a good WWS of Gorefiend tonight if I don't get ghosted.
I should have a good WWS of Gorefiend tonight if I don't get ghosted.
Edited onPatch 2.3.0
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Originally Posted by Duranthor
Actually, from the post "how does flurry work” It didn't appear that weapon speed made a difference in how flurry actually performs, so I am not sure I agree with that statement. Perhaps if you quantified what you mean by efficient use of Flurry I could respond better.
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| Futher, As long as the weapons you use are not daggers, the loss of whirlwind damage due to weapon top end should be more than made up for in over all dps. I do not subscribe to using lower DPS weapons just because they may have a higher top end theory. My personal Theory is that the reason WW is so much lower is because BT is on a 6 cool down while WW is on a 9. As your attack power gets higher, your BT damage will just be better. For example, let’s assume 3500 ATP which is more than reasonable. Every 6 seconds you will hit for 1575 with your blood thirst or 4725 damage every 18 seconds. You whirlwind hits with both weapons lets take myself for 600 MH 450 OH or 2100 damage every 18 seconds. There should be no way that your WW damage should even equate to more than 50% of whatever your BT damage with raid buffed ATP as ATP should always stay ahead of weapon damage by a significant amount. My personal numbers support this. I could be horribly horribly wrong and if so, I would love to be corrected. |
| Finally, if my tracker says that 19% of my damage is from heroic strike, how can you do anything but assume that 19% of my damage is from heroic strike? Is there something I am not accounting for? |
EDIT: Just to reiterate something I posted earlier, the new WW gets (AP/14)*2.4*1.625 = AP*0.278 contribution from attack power, or 28%. Just from attack power. So even with a 0-1 damage range weapon, it will be doing 61% of Bloodthirst's damage. Obviously, a powerful pair of weapons adds significantly to it.
Last edited by Nezralix : 11/14/07 at 7:20 PM.
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Originally Posted by Nolanhadhoof
In addition to others' comments of your report I think that you are wasting rage by using rampage too often. I generally don't refresh mine until the buff is down to eight seconds.
If you are going to use potions I suggest haste potions. |
Our failed attempt at Hydross last night. My dps post patch with no changes to talent tree. Still waiting for the dps warrior community to come up with the optimal fury build before respeccing.
Loading...
Claastimer is my choice. I prefer it over chronometer.
RampageBar, and this is pretty much the optimal DW build.
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Originally Posted by Krav
Thanks to all who have replied. I'll look at trying to convince my guild to put up CoR as well as working on the rampage issue. Does anyone know of a macro or mod that reminds you when to put up Rampage? I know Irritating Buff Reminder does it for battleshout.
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Originally Posted by Murr0w
RampageBar, and this is pretty much the optimal DW build.
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| The change from Imp Execute to Precision will gain me about 3 DPS according to the spreadsheet. From my experience, the last 20% on a boss can be the most crucial due to enrages, mass damage, hectic environments, et al (Vashj, Leo, KT, Morogrim, plenty of examples - not sure about MH/BT since my guild just killed KT this week). I'd rather have the increased damage during that last bit than 3 DPS more overall. |
Too many points are lost on useless tier 1-3 arms talents for it to be worthwhile, in my opinion. You're loosing not only 250 AP but also 3 points that would be spent in imp execute and/or precision/imp whirlwind.
Edited onPatch 2.3.0
i figured as much. also with s3 coming soon, will a s3 MH be better than dragonstrike? i dont have excel so i cant use the spreadsheet.
And on the fast OH vs slow OH subject, because of the WW change, it might be optimal to use a mid range weapon somewhere 1.8-2.4 speed. You get a more steady rage income than using a slow OH but still get more dmg out of your WW's.
Another question. according to this hit table:
0-28: Miss
28-33.6: Dodge
33.6-58.6: Glancing
58.6-78.6: Crit
78.6-100: Hit
there is a 5.6% (33.6-28) chance for a mob to dodge correct? so in order to push all dodges out of the hit table you would need -5.6% chance to dodge from expertise? which at -0.25%/ expertise (cant remember where i saw that figure, but i remember seeing it somewhere) would be 22.4*3.9(number of expertise rating per expertise) = 87.36 expertise rating right?
87 expertise can be obtained by using:
Fang of Vashj
Belt of One-Hundred Deaths
Brooch of Deftness
Shapeshifter's Signet
is it advisable to give up some other stats to obtain that much expertise?
And on the fast OH vs slow OH subject, because of the WW change, it might be optimal to use a mid range weapon somewhere 1.8-2.4 speed. You get a more steady rage income than using a slow OH but still get more dmg out of your WW's.
Another question. according to this hit table:
0-28: Miss
28-33.6: Dodge
33.6-58.6: Glancing
58.6-78.6: Crit
78.6-100: Hit
there is a 5.6% (33.6-28) chance for a mob to dodge correct? so in order to push all dodges out of the hit table you would need -5.6% chance to dodge from expertise? which at -0.25%/ expertise (cant remember where i saw that figure, but i remember seeing it somewhere) would be 22.4*3.9(number of expertise rating per expertise) = 87.36 expertise rating right?
87 expertise can be obtained by using:
Fang of Vashj
Belt of One-Hundred Deaths
Brooch of Deftness
Shapeshifter's Signet
is it advisable to give up some other stats to obtain that much expertise?
Last edited by Ediconegoen : 11/15/07 at 6:25 AM.
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Originally Posted by Zalein
I'd much rather spec this build for two reasons. One is my reason stated above, and secondly, with the gear from heroics now available with huge amounts of hit and with the change to whirlwind it should be no problem getting hit up with one or two of these pieces and enjoying a shorter cooldown on a buffed ability. If you're really short on hit, then swap the points from imp whirlwind into precision. But people are really overestimating precision, imo.
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WWS of a pre 2.3 Anatheron : Wow Web Stats
Standard group make-up : Fury Warrior, Enh Shaman, Feral Druid, Leatherworking Rogue. DPS = 1287, 6 sleeps, 2 DW.
WWS of post 2.3 Anatheron : Wow Web Stats
Group make up: Fury Warrior, Resto Shaman, Feral Druid, non-Leatherworking rogue, Blood Frenzy. DPS = 1371, 1 sleep.
So 5 less sleeps but i didn't have the enh shaman bonuses or the drums of battle for the 2.3 kill. I am currently using the S2 fast offhand, i personally feel that DPS has remained pretty constant over the patch. That said my trash DPS has gone up, and i break a lot of sheeps.
Standard group make-up : Fury Warrior, Enh Shaman, Feral Druid, Leatherworking Rogue. DPS = 1287, 6 sleeps, 2 DW.
WWS of post 2.3 Anatheron : Wow Web Stats
Group make up: Fury Warrior, Resto Shaman, Feral Druid, non-Leatherworking rogue, Blood Frenzy. DPS = 1371, 1 sleep.
So 5 less sleeps but i didn't have the enh shaman bonuses or the drums of battle for the 2.3 kill. I am currently using the S2 fast offhand, i personally feel that DPS has remained pretty constant over the patch. That said my trash DPS has gone up, and i break a lot of sheeps.
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Originally Posted by Murr0w
Why in god's name would you get 2/2 Imp. WW?
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Once you bump the latency to 150ms, 2/2 suddenly seems a little more interesting. In theory of course.
Simple Improved Whirlwind emulator
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Originally Posted by Mogwai
WWS of a pre 2.3 Anatheron : Wow Web Stats
Standard group make-up : Fury Warrior, Enh Shaman, Feral Druid, Leatherworking Rogue. DPS = 1287, 6 sleeps, 2 DW. WWS of post 2.3 Anatheron : Wow Web Stats Group make up: Fury Warrior, Resto Shaman, Feral Druid, non-Leatherworking rogue, Blood Frenzy. DPS = 1371, 1 sleep. So 5 less sleeps but i didn't have the enh shaman bonuses or the drums of battle for the 2.3 kill. I am currently using the S2 fast offhand, i personally feel that DPS has remained pretty constant over the patch. That said my trash DPS has gone up, and i break a lot of sheeps. |
As for spec post 2.3...I go 3/5 Booming Voice and 2/5 Demo still. Unbridled Wrath is so underwhelming when you can get about the same Rage from 1 point in Anger Management.
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Originally Posted by Nezralix
In either case it's really pretty comparable to Bloodthirst damage, and has the slight advantage of giving you two opportunities to proc Flurry, and using a bit less rage.
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Originally Posted by peer
Just a small correction here: offhand Whirlwind crits currently do not trigger Flurry. I pray it's just a bug, as offhand Stormstrike crits do trigger Flurry for shamans, but as far as I'm aware Blizzard has not yet commented on the issue.
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Originally Posted by Murr0w
Why in god's name would you get 2/2 Imp. WW?
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Regarding Expertise...does the spreadsheet model it correctly? If so the following items are the best available for DPS in DW Fury now...
[Brooch of Deftness]
[Belt of One-Hundred Deaths]
[Shoulderpads of the Stranger]
[Brooch of Deftness]
[Belt of One-Hundred Deaths]
[Shoulderpads of the Stranger]
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Originally Posted by Murr0w
Why in god's name would you get 2/2 Imp. WW?
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Fast forward to the patch where Windfury was changed so that it no longer procs from instant attacks: hamstring is removed from warrior DPS cycles, thus the only abilities you have that use the GCD are Bloodthirst and Whirlwind. Now most of the time the bonus second of cooldown is used (sometimes Bloodthirst and Whirlwind cooldowns overlap), but on the whole this is considered to be a relatively worse point investment compared to Improved Execute.
Now, in patch 2.3, we have begun to realize that Execute isn't as good as it used to be, and given that Whirlwind has been buffed 62.5%, improved Whirlwind is actually a sound talent investment.
So, I recently specced my Fury alt 0/46/15 for Kara/Heroic/ZA dps and tanking. I searched the thread but did not find the answer to my question so apologies if this has been answered (or if I missed a spreadsheet that covers it) but...
Is it worth keeping up Rampage while tanking for an extra ~250 AP for threat generation (considering the loss of SS and Devastate) or would it be a waste of a GCD?
Is it worth keeping up Rampage while tanking for an extra ~250 AP for threat generation (considering the loss of SS and Devastate) or would it be a waste of a GCD?
WWS of post 2.3 Teron Gorefiend
Standard group make-up : Fury Warrior, Enh Shaman, Feral Druid, Leatherworking Rogue
DPS= 1737- (shows 101% uptime) With fast Swifsteel Bludgeon offhand
Loading...
Wondering how S3 weapons slow/slow will stack up.
Standard group make-up : Fury Warrior, Enh Shaman, Feral Druid, Leatherworking Rogue
DPS= 1737- (shows 101% uptime) With fast Swifsteel Bludgeon offhand
Loading...
Wondering how S3 weapons slow/slow will stack up.
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Originally Posted by Thundale
WWS of post 2.3 Teron Gorefiend
Standard group make-up : Fury Warrior, Enh Shaman, Feral Druid, Leatherworking Rogue DPS= 1737- (shows 101% uptime) With fast Swifsteel Bludgeon offhand Loading... Wondering how S3 weapons slow/slow will stack up. |
Bloodthirst 11.5 %
(armory is down for maintenance, so can not see your gears now)
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Originally Posted by Caligula
So, I recently specced my Fury alt 0/46/15 for Kara/Heroic/ZA dps and tanking. I searched the thread but did not find the answer to my question so apologies if this has been answered (or if I missed a spreadsheet that covers it) but...
Is it worth keeping up Rampage while tanking for an extra ~250 AP for threat generation (considering the loss of SS and Devastate) or would it be a waste of a GCD? |
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Originally Posted by Natural
My gut tells me that it's definitely not worth the rage/gcd for the threat.
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250 AP is 250/14 = 17.9 paper DPS. Assuming a 10% miss rate and 10% crit rate basically cancel out, and armor reduction is 30%, then that's 17.9*0.7*1.45 = 18.2 TPS, over the 30 seconds it lasts is 18.2*30 = 545 threat. Not including factors like Flurry, or using Bloodthirst as a threat skill (which should be possible now with Tactical Mastery). So it's at least comparable to Sunder for the time it's active.
I agree, no way can WW do as much damage as BT, maybe if you got two great weapons and sub 2000 AP.
As to flurry, I think the "how does flurry work"-thread is quite empty of any hard evidence for slow vs fast, that thread is mainly concerned with the extra flurried attacks you can get by having matched weapon speeds. It is quite clear that slow weapons will give higher flurry uptimes due to having more time to do instants while flurry is up, but it is a quite small effect (about 5% in flurry uptime for a 1.6 vs a 2.6 MH, slightly more for fast/fast setups). Faster weapons will apply flurry faster though (if you lose the buff in a non-crit streak). Caesar modeled it in http://elitistjerks.com/534787-post162.html, I think his calculations are correct.
I'm guessing that Nezralix means that the damage from HS is partly from the white hit and partly from the added damage. However, since pressing HS also makes the swing yellow, I would also report the total damage from HS in the way you have done (making it impossible to find the "true" added damage from HS from a combat log, it can be modeled however). Guess it depends on what you're trying to show.
As to flurry, I think the "how does flurry work"-thread is quite empty of any hard evidence for slow vs fast, that thread is mainly concerned with the extra flurried attacks you can get by having matched weapon speeds. It is quite clear that slow weapons will give higher flurry uptimes due to having more time to do instants while flurry is up, but it is a quite small effect (about 5% in flurry uptime for a 1.6 vs a 2.6 MH, slightly more for fast/fast setups). Faster weapons will apply flurry faster though (if you lose the buff in a non-crit streak). Caesar modeled it in http://elitistjerks.com/534787-post162.html, I think his calculations are correct.
I'm guessing that Nezralix means that the damage from HS is partly from the white hit and partly from the added damage. However, since pressing HS also makes the swing yellow, I would also report the total damage from HS in the way you have done (making it impossible to find the "true" added damage from HS from a combat log, it can be modeled however). Guess it depends on what you're trying to show.
I'm seeing ~ 7-10% DPS nerf on bosses. The threat reduction is certainly convenient for the start of fights.
I should have a good WWS of Gorefiend tonight if I don't get ghosted.
I should have a good WWS of Gorefiend tonight if I don't get ghosted.
Edited onPatch 2.3.0
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Originally Posted by Duranthor
Actually, from the post "how does flurry work” It didn't appear that weapon speed made a difference in how flurry actually performs, so I am not sure I agree with that statement. Perhaps if you quantified what you mean by efficient use of Flurry I could respond better.
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| Futher, As long as the weapons you use are not daggers, the loss of whirlwind damage due to weapon top end should be more than made up for in over all dps. I do not subscribe to using lower DPS weapons just because they may have a higher top end theory. My personal Theory is that the reason WW is so much lower is because BT is on a 6 cool down while WW is on a 9. As your attack power gets higher, your BT damage will just be better. For example, let’s assume 3500 ATP which is more than reasonable. Every 6 seconds you will hit for 1575 with your blood thirst or 4725 damage every 18 seconds. You whirlwind hits with both weapons lets take myself for 600 MH 450 OH or 2100 damage every 18 seconds. There should be no way that your WW damage should even equate to more than 50% of whatever your BT damage with raid buffed ATP as ATP should always stay ahead of weapon damage by a significant amount. My personal numbers support this. I could be horribly horribly wrong and if so, I would love to be corrected. |
| Finally, if my tracker says that 19% of my damage is from heroic strike, how can you do anything but assume that 19% of my damage is from heroic strike? Is there something I am not accounting for? |
EDIT: Just to reiterate something I posted earlier, the new WW gets (AP/14)*2.4*1.625 = AP*0.278 contribution from attack power, or 28%. Just from attack power. So even with a 0-1 damage range weapon, it will be doing 61% of Bloodthirst's damage. Obviously, a powerful pair of weapons adds significantly to it.
Last edited by Nezralix : 11/14/07 at 7:20 PM.
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Originally Posted by Nolanhadhoof
In addition to others' comments of your report I think that you are wasting rage by using rampage too often. I generally don't refresh mine until the buff is down to eight seconds.
If you are going to use potions I suggest haste potions. |
Our failed attempt at Hydross last night. My dps post patch with no changes to talent tree. Still waiting for the dps warrior community to come up with the optimal fury build before respeccing.
Loading...
Claastimer is my choice. I prefer it over chronometer.
RampageBar, and this is pretty much the optimal DW build.
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Originally Posted by Krav
Thanks to all who have replied. I'll look at trying to convince my guild to put up CoR as well as working on the rampage issue. Does anyone know of a macro or mod that reminds you when to put up Rampage? I know Irritating Buff Reminder does it for battleshout.
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Originally Posted by Murr0w
RampageBar, and this is pretty much the optimal DW build.
|
| The change from Imp Execute to Precision will gain me about 3 DPS according to the spreadsheet. From my experience, the last 20% on a boss can be the most crucial due to enrages, mass damage, hectic environments, et al (Vashj, Leo, KT, Morogrim, plenty of examples - not sure about MH/BT since my guild just killed KT this week). I'd rather have the increased damage during that last bit than 3 DPS more overall. |
Too many points are lost on useless tier 1-3 arms talents for it to be worthwhile, in my opinion. You're loosing not only 250 AP but also 3 points that would be spent in imp execute and/or precision/imp whirlwind.
Edited onPatch 2.3.0
i figured as much. also with s3 coming soon, will a s3 MH be better than dragonstrike? i dont have excel so i cant use the spreadsheet.
And on the fast OH vs slow OH subject, because of the WW change, it might be optimal to use a mid range weapon somewhere 1.8-2.4 speed. You get a more steady rage income than using a slow OH but still get more dmg out of your WW's.
Another question. according to this hit table:
0-28: Miss
28-33.6: Dodge
33.6-58.6: Glancing
58.6-78.6: Crit
78.6-100: Hit
there is a 5.6% (33.6-28) chance for a mob to dodge correct? so in order to push all dodges out of the hit table you would need -5.6% chance to dodge from expertise? which at -0.25%/ expertise (cant remember where i saw that figure, but i remember seeing it somewhere) would be 22.4*3.9(number of expertise rating per expertise) = 87.36 expertise rating right?
87 expertise can be obtained by using:
Fang of Vashj
Belt of One-Hundred Deaths
Brooch of Deftness
Shapeshifter's Signet
is it advisable to give up some other stats to obtain that much expertise?
And on the fast OH vs slow OH subject, because of the WW change, it might be optimal to use a mid range weapon somewhere 1.8-2.4 speed. You get a more steady rage income than using a slow OH but still get more dmg out of your WW's.
Another question. according to this hit table:
0-28: Miss
28-33.6: Dodge
33.6-58.6: Glancing
58.6-78.6: Crit
78.6-100: Hit
there is a 5.6% (33.6-28) chance for a mob to dodge correct? so in order to push all dodges out of the hit table you would need -5.6% chance to dodge from expertise? which at -0.25%/ expertise (cant remember where i saw that figure, but i remember seeing it somewhere) would be 22.4*3.9(number of expertise rating per expertise) = 87.36 expertise rating right?
87 expertise can be obtained by using:
Fang of Vashj
Belt of One-Hundred Deaths
Brooch of Deftness
Shapeshifter's Signet
is it advisable to give up some other stats to obtain that much expertise?
Last edited by Ediconegoen : 11/15/07 at 6:25 AM.
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Originally Posted by Zalein
I'd much rather spec this build for two reasons. One is my reason stated above, and secondly, with the gear from heroics now available with huge amounts of hit and with the change to whirlwind it should be no problem getting hit up with one or two of these pieces and enjoying a shorter cooldown on a buffed ability. If you're really short on hit, then swap the points from imp whirlwind into precision. But people are really overestimating precision, imo.
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WWS of a pre 2.3 Anatheron : Wow Web Stats
Standard group make-up : Fury Warrior, Enh Shaman, Feral Druid, Leatherworking Rogue. DPS = 1287, 6 sleeps, 2 DW.
WWS of post 2.3 Anatheron : Wow Web Stats
Group make up: Fury Warrior, Resto Shaman, Feral Druid, non-Leatherworking rogue, Blood Frenzy. DPS = 1371, 1 sleep.
So 5 less sleeps but i didn't have the enh shaman bonuses or the drums of battle for the 2.3 kill. I am currently using the S2 fast offhand, i personally feel that DPS has remained pretty constant over the patch. That said my trash DPS has gone up, and i break a lot of sheeps.
Standard group make-up : Fury Warrior, Enh Shaman, Feral Druid, Leatherworking Rogue. DPS = 1287, 6 sleeps, 2 DW.
WWS of post 2.3 Anatheron : Wow Web Stats
Group make up: Fury Warrior, Resto Shaman, Feral Druid, non-Leatherworking rogue, Blood Frenzy. DPS = 1371, 1 sleep.
So 5 less sleeps but i didn't have the enh shaman bonuses or the drums of battle for the 2.3 kill. I am currently using the S2 fast offhand, i personally feel that DPS has remained pretty constant over the patch. That said my trash DPS has gone up, and i break a lot of sheeps.
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Originally Posted by Murr0w
Why in god's name would you get 2/2 Imp. WW?
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Once you bump the latency to 150ms, 2/2 suddenly seems a little more interesting. In theory of course.
Simple Improved Whirlwind emulator
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Originally Posted by Mogwai
WWS of a pre 2.3 Anatheron : Wow Web Stats
Standard group make-up : Fury Warrior, Enh Shaman, Feral Druid, Leatherworking Rogue. DPS = 1287, 6 sleeps, 2 DW. WWS of post 2.3 Anatheron : Wow Web Stats Group make up: Fury Warrior, Resto Shaman, Feral Druid, non-Leatherworking rogue, Blood Frenzy. DPS = 1371, 1 sleep. So 5 less sleeps but i didn't have the enh shaman bonuses or the drums of battle for the 2.3 kill. I am currently using the S2 fast offhand, i personally feel that DPS has remained pretty constant over the patch. That said my trash DPS has gone up, and i break a lot of sheeps. |
As for spec post 2.3...I go 3/5 Booming Voice and 2/5 Demo still. Unbridled Wrath is so underwhelming when you can get about the same Rage from 1 point in Anger Management.
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Originally Posted by Nezralix
In either case it's really pretty comparable to Bloodthirst damage, and has the slight advantage of giving you two opportunities to proc Flurry, and using a bit less rage.
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Originally Posted by peer
Just a small correction here: offhand Whirlwind crits currently do not trigger Flurry. I pray it's just a bug, as offhand Stormstrike crits do trigger Flurry for shamans, but as far as I'm aware Blizzard has not yet commented on the issue.
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Originally Posted by Murr0w
Why in god's name would you get 2/2 Imp. WW?
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Regarding Expertise...does the spreadsheet model it correctly? If so the following items are the best available for DPS in DW Fury now...
[Brooch of Deftness]
[Belt of One-Hundred Deaths]
[Shoulderpads of the Stranger]
[Brooch of Deftness]
[Belt of One-Hundred Deaths]
[Shoulderpads of the Stranger]
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Originally Posted by Murr0w
Why in god's name would you get 2/2 Imp. WW?
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Fast forward to the patch where Windfury was changed so that it no longer procs from instant attacks: hamstring is removed from warrior DPS cycles, thus the only abilities you have that use the GCD are Bloodthirst and Whirlwind. Now most of the time the bonus second of cooldown is used (sometimes Bloodthirst and Whirlwind cooldowns overlap), but on the whole this is considered to be a relatively worse point investment compared to Improved Execute.
Now, in patch 2.3, we have begun to realize that Execute isn't as good as it used to be, and given that Whirlwind has been buffed 62.5%, improved Whirlwind is actually a sound talent investment.
So, I recently specced my Fury alt 0/46/15 for Kara/Heroic/ZA dps and tanking. I searched the thread but did not find the answer to my question so apologies if this has been answered (or if I missed a spreadsheet that covers it) but...
Is it worth keeping up Rampage while tanking for an extra ~250 AP for threat generation (considering the loss of SS and Devastate) or would it be a waste of a GCD?
Is it worth keeping up Rampage while tanking for an extra ~250 AP for threat generation (considering the loss of SS and Devastate) or would it be a waste of a GCD?
WWS of post 2.3 Teron Gorefiend
Standard group make-up : Fury Warrior, Enh Shaman, Feral Druid, Leatherworking Rogue
DPS= 1737- (shows 101% uptime) With fast Swifsteel Bludgeon offhand
Loading...
Wondering how S3 weapons slow/slow will stack up.
Standard group make-up : Fury Warrior, Enh Shaman, Feral Druid, Leatherworking Rogue
DPS= 1737- (shows 101% uptime) With fast Swifsteel Bludgeon offhand
Loading...
Wondering how S3 weapons slow/slow will stack up.
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Originally Posted by Thundale
WWS of post 2.3 Teron Gorefiend
Standard group make-up : Fury Warrior, Enh Shaman, Feral Druid, Leatherworking Rogue DPS= 1737- (shows 101% uptime) With fast Swifsteel Bludgeon offhand Loading... Wondering how S3 weapons slow/slow will stack up. |
Bloodthirst 11.5 %
(armory is down for maintenance, so can not see your gears now)
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Originally Posted by Caligula
So, I recently specced my Fury alt 0/46/15 for Kara/Heroic/ZA dps and tanking. I searched the thread but did not find the answer to my question so apologies if this has been answered (or if I missed a spreadsheet that covers it) but...
Is it worth keeping up Rampage while tanking for an extra ~250 AP for threat generation (considering the loss of SS and Devastate) or would it be a waste of a GCD? |
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Originally Posted by Natural
My gut tells me that it's definitely not worth the rage/gcd for the threat.
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250 AP is 250/14 = 17.9 paper DPS. Assuming a 10% miss rate and 10% crit rate basically cancel out, and armor reduction is 30%, then that's 17.9*0.7*1.45 = 18.2 TPS, over the 30 seconds it lasts is 18.2*30 = 545 threat. Not including factors like Flurry, or using Bloodthirst as a threat skill (which should be possible now with Tactical Mastery). So it's at least comparable to Sunder for the time it's active.
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Originally Posted by Natural
My gut tells me that it's definitely not worth the rage/gcd for the threat.
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250 AP = how much of a DPS/TPS increase?
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Originally Posted by Nezralix
250 AP is 250/14 = 17.9 paper DPS. Assuming a 10% miss rate and 10% crit rate basically cancel out, and armor reduction is 30%, then that's 17.9*0.7*1.45 = 18.2 TPS, over the 30 seconds it lasts is 18.2*30 = 545 threat. Not including factors like Flurry, or using Bloodthirst as a threat skill (which should be possible now with Tactical Mastery). So it's at least comparable to Sunder for the time it's active.
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We could either assume an unlimited rage scenario, in that case:
What's the average possible threat increase of 250 AP for 30 seconds vs. the maximum threat possible for using one other GCD with a 0/46/15 spec? I'm not familiar with the new threat values for BT with the new TM so I've got no idea here but our options are, Revenge, BT and Sunder.
We could assume a limited rage scenario, in that case:
What's the average possible threat increase of 250 AP for 30 seconds vs. the most efficient threat generating skill using one GCD in that 0/46/15 spec? I'm assuming that, all threat generating skills being untalented, Revenge would be the top skill to use here for threat per rage (again I'm not familiar with the numbers on the new TM modified BT). So would the threat increase on Rampage costing 20 rage, lasting 30 seconds be more efficient than another skill (assumably Revenge)?
edit: Oops posted before Nezralix, he seems to be on the case and already mostly answered the question. Does anyone know the exact threat value for BT with TM?
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Originally Posted by lazerpewpew
hmmm, how did you manage to get that high percentage of miss on bloodthirst?
Bloodthirst 11.5 % (armory is down for maintenance, so can not see your gears now) |
Sorry for the long delay in post time, work gets in the way of wow sometimes. Anyway, I think we are having a good discussion, and here are some things I would like to add.
[quote=Nezralix;549548]All of the Flurry mechanics posts I've seen have basically been a large number of people saying "I think Flurry works like this, but I'm not really sure". Intuitively, I can say that knowing that yellow damage procs Flurry means that I'd rather those Flurry charges get used on my main hand than my off hand. A fast off-hand means that I'm rather likely to expend more charges on that than on my main hand, even if I do get slightly more Flurry procs as a result of a faster off-hand. Again, this is largely intuitive, so I could be mistaken, but if it functions like it seems like it should does, then I think I'm right.
I think my main point about brining up the "how does flurry work" post is that I at this point I am not sure we understand enough about flurry mechanics to make concrete claims one way or the other regarding things like how weapon speed effects the skill. What we can say is that Flurry makes you attack faster. Now I think this is where we diverge on why we see this as important. You seem to be coming from the point of view that my MH getting flurry swings instead of my off hand is better since I then get full damage from it. This is true. My view point is this however, attacking faster means that I generate more rage. More rage means more specials. More specials mean more damage. If the majority of our damage were white, I would agree with your stance about weapons. However, in my opinion, the white damage you do is gravy. As your gear gets better you should see your white damage continue to decrease over time as your rage bar takes few hits to fill up. I think this is born out by the WWS reports of higher geared warriors. This is why I say that dps on a weapon is far more important than the top end because the rage generation formula factors in weapon dps I believe.
[quote=Nezralix;549548]Your math is a bit imprecise. Yes, Bloodthirst would hit for 1575 pre-armor. But your whirlwind should hit for way more than that. Let's assume a 100 dps weapon like Rising Tide (260 average damage). With 3500 attack power, you're hitting for (3500/14)*2.4 + 260 = 860. Multiply by 1.625 for equivalent off-hand damage and you're looking at a 1398 hit. 1186 for a weapon with half that average damage, so 18% more damage with the slower weapons. Not insignificant, and even a larger difference if you have less attack power. In either case it's really pretty comparable to Bloodthirst damage, and has the slight advantage of giving you two opportunities to proc Flurry, and using a bit less rage.
Two things here. First it seems to be true that your off hand is not currently procing Flurry. I have not confirmed this, but that is something to consider. But you should also consider that since WW is two attacks is suffers from all of the bad out comes of the table twice. BT will always pull ahead simply because it's one chunk of damage with one set of possible out comes. I have never argued that the return for WW dps by using a slow off hand is insignificant. What I am saying is that in terms of your over all damage it is not worth choosing a lesser dps weapon just for the ww increase.
[quote=Nezralix;549548]Your Heroic Strikes may be accounting for that damage, but all of it isn't caused by the Heroic Strike skill damage. Most of that damage (at least 75% of it) would have been done by the white damage it added onto. So if it accounts for 19% of your damage, with the 75% figure then the skill damage itself is only accounting for 19*0.25 = 4.75% of your total damage, and you might as well add 14.25% to your white damage. Although in practice it's slightly more damage just on account of removing crushing blows and some misses.
I think that your principle does not bear out here. If this were true, you would have to calculate WW the same way seeing as it is completely based upon white damage that you would do. What is important here is that HS is a next swing attack and a yellow attack. This means a few things. First, that because it's yellow it is not subject to Glancing blows nor the usual miss rates for white attacks. Second, it benefits greatly from haste and increased weapon speed unlike our other yellow attacks. Lastly, and perhaps most importantly, because it's next swing, it can proc WF. No other special that we have can do this. Oh and in illumination of a previous point, this means that HS gets better and better with faster weapons.
To conclude, I would say that while the WW change is nice, it is not significant enough to build around. The biggest increase to our single target dps will be the advent of Expertise and 10% less agro in zerker in my opinion. Further, the goal should be to use WW and BT every time they are up AND fill in as many HS as possible because heroic strike right now is simply amazing.
[quote=Nezralix;549548]All of the Flurry mechanics posts I've seen have basically been a large number of people saying "I think Flurry works like this, but I'm not really sure". Intuitively, I can say that knowing that yellow damage procs Flurry means that I'd rather those Flurry charges get used on my main hand than my off hand. A fast off-hand means that I'm rather likely to expend more charges on that than on my main hand, even if I do get slightly more Flurry procs as a result of a faster off-hand. Again, this is largely intuitive, so I could be mistaken, but if it functions like it seems like it should does, then I think I'm right.
I think my main point about brining up the "how does flurry work" post is that I at this point I am not sure we understand enough about flurry mechanics to make concrete claims one way or the other regarding things like how weapon speed effects the skill. What we can say is that Flurry makes you attack faster. Now I think this is where we diverge on why we see this as important. You seem to be coming from the point of view that my MH getting flurry swings instead of my off hand is better since I then get full damage from it. This is true. My view point is this however, attacking faster means that I generate more rage. More rage means more specials. More specials mean more damage. If the majority of our damage were white, I would agree with your stance about weapons. However, in my opinion, the white damage you do is gravy. As your gear gets better you should see your white damage continue to decrease over time as your rage bar takes few hits to fill up. I think this is born out by the WWS reports of higher geared warriors. This is why I say that dps on a weapon is far more important than the top end because the rage generation formula factors in weapon dps I believe.
[quote=Nezralix;549548]Your math is a bit imprecise. Yes, Bloodthirst would hit for 1575 pre-armor. But your whirlwind should hit for way more than that. Let's assume a 100 dps weapon like Rising Tide (260 average damage). With 3500 attack power, you're hitting for (3500/14)*2.4 + 260 = 860. Multiply by 1.625 for equivalent off-hand damage and you're looking at a 1398 hit. 1186 for a weapon with half that average damage, so 18% more damage with the slower weapons. Not insignificant, and even a larger difference if you have less attack power. In either case it's really pretty comparable to Bloodthirst damage, and has the slight advantage of giving you two opportunities to proc Flurry, and using a bit less rage.
Two things here. First it seems to be true that your off hand is not currently procing Flurry. I have not confirmed this, but that is something to consider. But you should also consider that since WW is two attacks is suffers from all of the bad out comes of the table twice. BT will always pull ahead simply because it's one chunk of damage with one set of possible out comes. I have never argued that the return for WW dps by using a slow off hand is insignificant. What I am saying is that in terms of your over all damage it is not worth choosing a lesser dps weapon just for the ww increase.
[quote=Nezralix;549548]Your Heroic Strikes may be accounting for that damage, but all of it isn't caused by the Heroic Strike skill damage. Most of that damage (at least 75% of it) would have been done by the white damage it added onto. So if it accounts for 19% of your damage, with the 75% figure then the skill damage itself is only accounting for 19*0.25 = 4.75% of your total damage, and you might as well add 14.25% to your white damage. Although in practice it's slightly more damage just on account of removing crushing blows and some misses.
I think that your principle does not bear out here. If this were true, you would have to calculate WW the same way seeing as it is completely based upon white damage that you would do. What is important here is that HS is a next swing attack and a yellow attack. This means a few things. First, that because it's yellow it is not subject to Glancing blows nor the usual miss rates for white attacks. Second, it benefits greatly from haste and increased weapon speed unlike our other yellow attacks. Lastly, and perhaps most importantly, because it's next swing, it can proc WF. No other special that we have can do this. Oh and in illumination of a previous point, this means that HS gets better and better with faster weapons.
To conclude, I would say that while the WW change is nice, it is not significant enough to build around. The biggest increase to our single target dps will be the advent of Expertise and 10% less agro in zerker in my opinion. Further, the goal should be to use WW and BT every time they are up AND fill in as many HS as possible because heroic strike right now is simply amazing.
I'm not impressed with the new DW Fury. It certainly isn't more damage than before, I'll most likely go back to 33/28.
Has anyone else tried a 21/40 2h build for dps yet? I've just respecced last night and from the short amount of time I had to play with it I was really impressed.
20-41 > 21-40. The point of 2hand fury is to stack attack power. Giving up 275 attack power for 1 point in Arms (likely a weapon specialization) seems a little goofy for me. Myabe some WWSes might change my mind but ...
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Originally Posted by Randor
20-41 > 21-40. The point of 2hand fury is to stack attack power. Giving up 275 attack power for 1 point in Arms (likely a weapon specialization) seems a little goofy for me. Myabe some WWSes might change my mind but ...
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Originally Posted by Ren
You get Death Wish with the 21st point.
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Originally Posted by Randor
Ah. Forgot about that. Haven't done Arms since the patch. Be interesting to see how 275 atp vs. DW goes.
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Edited onPatch 2.3.0
Alright i have a couple questions regarding 2.3
I did some testing last night in ssc. Yes we do lose dps overall on straight dps on bosses but we gain some +'s to trash killing and aoe type packs. but heres what i want to get down to.
I currently use decpitator 92.1 dps and Gladiator's Quickblade. crappy weapons i know but as soon as season 3 hits im curious as to what i should get. Im for sure getting the 1h Mace for MH but im debating wether or not to get 2 1h Maces or get the OH mace. im looking for overall boss dps here and not trash dps. im running roughly 200 hit rating 1850 AP and 31% crit unbuffed in zerker. problem is i came accross a few times where i would be short on rage on morogrim last night. i did not have a feral druid or a shaman in the group. i had hunters with drums and FI and i hit 900 dps on that fight. is this low or about average? you can check my armory for gear wise.
What is better after 2.3 2 2.7 speed 1h maces at 103.1 dps or 1 2.7 speed 1h mace and a 1.5 speed 103.1 dps OH. im leading to believe that due to my lack of rage at times during the fight could lead that i was low on crit. i did have sharpening stones and was at about 34% raid buffed. so im either thinking i need a harder hitting OH or more crit.
Also Executioner, what do you guys think of this? any feedback on tests? Im thinking of running Mongoose/executioner or just stick to mongoose/+20 str
Lode did you do the testing yet on Executioner?
I did some testing last night in ssc. Yes we do lose dps overall on straight dps on bosses but we gain some +'s to trash killing and aoe type packs. but heres what i want to get down to.
I currently use decpitator 92.1 dps and Gladiator's Quickblade. crappy weapons i know but as soon as season 3 hits im curious as to what i should get. Im for sure getting the 1h Mace for MH but im debating wether or not to get 2 1h Maces or get the OH mace. im looking for overall boss dps here and not trash dps. im running roughly 200 hit rating 1850 AP and 31% crit unbuffed in zerker. problem is i came accross a few times where i would be short on rage on morogrim last night. i did not have a feral druid or a shaman in the group. i had hunters with drums and FI and i hit 900 dps on that fight. is this low or about average? you can check my armory for gear wise.
What is better after 2.3 2 2.7 speed 1h maces at 103.1 dps or 1 2.7 speed 1h mace and a 1.5 speed 103.1 dps OH. im leading to believe that due to my lack of rage at times during the fight could lead that i was low on crit. i did have sharpening stones and was at about 34% raid buffed. so im either thinking i need a harder hitting OH or more crit.
Also Executioner, what do you guys think of this? any feedback on tests? Im thinking of running Mongoose/executioner or just stick to mongoose/+20 str
Lode did you do the testing yet on Executioner?
Last edited by Kesslar : 11/15/07 at 8:04 PM.
We didn't end up getting our Hyjal clear for WWS, I forgot to turn on the log, and the person that primarily records forgot as well. Anyway, this was from last night's BT. I am not feeling a loss of DPS at all and on some fights it's remained the same or gone up. Maybe I was just a horrible Fury Warrior before and I also didn't chain guzzle haste pots until we entered BT simply because the ingredients are hard to get on our AH and I am not an herbalist.
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Edited onPatch 2.3.0
Hey guys, I don't mean to throw a wrench in the current discussion, but I was hoping for some advice on some weapons.
Currently I have Dragonstrike, Blade of Infamy, and Swiftsteel Bludgeon at my disposal. Any suggestions for MH/OH would be much appreciated. Thanks in advance.
Currently I have Dragonstrike, Blade of Infamy, and Swiftsteel Bludgeon at my disposal. Any suggestions for MH/OH would be much appreciated. Thanks in advance.
Last edited by Fexus : 11/15/07 at 8:48 PM.
Dragonstrike MH
Blade of Infamy OH
Blade of Infamy OH
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Originally Posted by Hozz
Dragonstrike MH
Blade of Infamy OH |
Example for the difference between 2.2 and 2.3 in AoE-damage encounters and the viability of expertise (Dragonstrike / S2 Slow Mace OH):
Last night at Karathress - over 100 DPS increase compared to last time when I was there (only BM hunter as support):
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Last night at Karathress - over 100 DPS increase compared to last time when I was there (only BM hunter as support):
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Originally Posted by Kaan
Example for the difference between 2.2 and 2.3 in AoE-damage encounters and the viability of expertise (Dragonstrike / S2 Slow Mace OH):
Last night at Karathress - over 100 DPS increase compared to last time when I was there (only BM hunter as support): Loading... |
AOE encounters too, there is no doubt our trash/multi target DPS was going up with WW getting an offhand swing in and a 10 charge SS replacing Deathwish...how many of those fights are there though, outside of trash?
Not everyone is a Human, or an Orc, and most bosses involve single target DPS. 17/44 was nerfed and unless they make some changes, the spec is terminal.
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Originally Posted by Hozz
Not everyone is a Human, or an Orc, and most bosses involve single target DPS. 17/44 was nerfed and unless they make some changes, the spec is terminal.
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Edited onPatch 2.3.0
I've been having some trouble lately - notably over the past month or so my DPS (using Gorefiend as an example) has gone down week by week.
About a month ago I hit ~1550 DPS, the next week was 1400, week after 1330, and this week I only pulled about 1260.
Tonight's WWS: Kiranat - WWS
Last Week's WWS: Wow Web Stats
On this latest attempt Recklessness was down (1% wipe the pull before), but I simply cannot figure out how I lost nearly 300 DPS while improving my gear and, if anything, becoming even more strict on my timing for a slam rotation.
The only thing I can see that's a big difference is that my miss rate has gone up. I've only been able to swap out gear to get to 117 hit (vs the ~100 previously needed by humans) but I would think that between the Expertise and Weapon Mastery that my miss rate would have effectively gone DOWN. Of course, on top of this I stand to lose an additional 22 hit rating by picking up the Divine Retribution legs off Bloodboil...
My current stats are roughly as follows: 1940 AP, 31% Crit, ~900 armor penetration.
Any ideas? Would it be worthwhile to drop ~30 AP/175 armor ignore to go back to my Worgen Claw neck to gain some crit/hit after I pick up Leggings of Divine Retribution?
As for future gear plans: I'm 1st in line for Bloodboil pants/ring, 2nd in line for Souls boots. We've never seen either drop in over two months of kills :\ Madness of the Betrayer is a long way off, and Tsuanmi Talisman is not an option as we no longer run SSC. I plan on swapping out Savagery for Executioner when S3 hits and I pick up a new PVP weapon.
About a month ago I hit ~1550 DPS, the next week was 1400, week after 1330, and this week I only pulled about 1260.
Tonight's WWS: Kiranat - WWS
Last Week's WWS: Wow Web Stats
On this latest attempt Recklessness was down (1% wipe the pull before), but I simply cannot figure out how I lost nearly 300 DPS while improving my gear and, if anything, becoming even more strict on my timing for a slam rotation.
The only thing I can see that's a big difference is that my miss rate has gone up. I've only been able to swap out gear to get to 117 hit (vs the ~100 previously needed by humans) but I would think that between the Expertise and Weapon Mastery that my miss rate would have effectively gone DOWN. Of course, on top of this I stand to lose an additional 22 hit rating by picking up the Divine Retribution legs off Bloodboil...
My current stats are roughly as follows: 1940 AP, 31% Crit, ~900 armor penetration.
Any ideas? Would it be worthwhile to drop ~30 AP/175 armor ignore to go back to my Worgen Claw neck to gain some crit/hit after I pick up Leggings of Divine Retribution?
As for future gear plans: I'm 1st in line for Bloodboil pants/ring, 2nd in line for Souls boots. We've never seen either drop in over two months of kills :\ Madness of the Betrayer is a long way off, and Tsuanmi Talisman is not an option as we no longer run SSC. I plan on swapping out Savagery for Executioner when S3 hits and I pick up a new PVP weapon.
Last edited by Kiranat : 11/16/07 at 4:26 AM.
From checking a few pages on the combat log from that WWS you posted, you seem to be hitting slams about 2-2.5 seconds after your melee. Maybe try using an attack swing timer add on so you can slam directly after your white hit. Your slams should be hitting within one second of your melee.
Other than that just make sure to stay over hit cap, for 2h it's crucial.
Other than that just make sure to stay over hit cap, for 2h it's crucial.
I'm using Quartz and, while it's not the greatest, I'd like to this that that's being parsed incorrectly.... Either that or WoW is reporting my ping as 2000MS too low. That honestly wouldn't suprise me though, my connection is truly horrible.
Looking through it again it appears that most slams are starting .5 to .7s too late which I think can be attributed to my connection. Hopefully that will be resolved when I switch ISPs towards the end of the month.
Looking through it again it appears that most slams are starting .5 to .7s too late which I think can be attributed to my connection. Hopefully that will be resolved when I switch ISPs towards the end of the month.
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Originally Posted by Kaan
Well I agree with this, I don't wanted to show, that our DPS improved... it's only an example how it improved on multitarget fights. Didn't use the human expertise bug though I could do that. I think 5 expertise and the -2% dodge from weapon mastery are more than enough (had 1% dodge during this fight... this is neglible).
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Moreover, I feel like I'm having way more fun with Sweeping Strikes. That being said, of course Death Wish should still be somewhat brought back, be it in place of a talent or making it trainable.
One question now. I usually end up very high in the %damage done chart(#4 on Karatress and Hydross) even with some blue pieces and still a few enchants missing, but sometimes I'm behind people who dealt 100k damage less than me in the DPS one. Any tips on why? In my personal WoW experience though I have to say that the damage done chart is far more important, but I still can't figure out the reason of this.
It's due to how the damage meters calculate DPS, which is far from accurate. Basically I think it only counts time into the DPS equation 2 seconds after your last cast, you'll note it's normally casters that have the higher DPS/lower overall damage thing.
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Originally Posted by Zalein
It's due to how the damage meters calculate DPS, which is far from accurate. Basically I think it only counts time into the DPS equation 2 seconds after your last cast, you'll note it's normally casters that have the higher DPS/lower overall damage thing.
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Armory link (ms spec atm)
http://www.wowarmory.com/character-s...idan&n=Gerbell
2.3 Teron Gorefiend kill. Had a resto shaman and no other group buffs.
1520 sustained DPS
WWS: Gerbell - WWS
Not the highest dps out there, but my gear is kind of bad and I wasn't in the melee group. Definitely didn't lose much damage from the patch and in fact I may have gained some.
http://www.wowarmory.com/character-s...idan&n=Gerbell
2.3 Teron Gorefiend kill. Had a resto shaman and no other group buffs.
1520 sustained DPS
WWS: Gerbell - WWS
Not the highest dps out there, but my gear is kind of bad and I wasn't in the melee group. Definitely didn't lose much damage from the patch and in fact I may have gained some.
Here's my WWS from my first night of raiding with executioner....set some record crits for SS, which is also new for me :P
1 Kael wipe and kael kill...not every important due to legendary weapons
Rage kill.
2 Anetheron wipes and our first Anetheron kill (YAY! just killed Kael on monday, so Hyjal is new to me)
Talon of the Phoenix with executioner and S2 slow off-hand (With mongoose, which will be 20str on any new off-hand, it used to be my MH). Intend to switch to 2 slow S3 axes/maces/swords/fist next season....undecided on actual weapon type. Damage meters are crazily shifted for AoE damage. 16% WW damage, HAH!
TK/Hyjal
Hyjal trash is some crazy fun with SS and whirlwind. Nothing like seeing your screen getting just spammed with numbers everywhere.
1 Kael wipe and kael kill...not every important due to legendary weapons
Rage kill.
2 Anetheron wipes and our first Anetheron kill (YAY! just killed Kael on monday, so Hyjal is new to me)
Talon of the Phoenix with executioner and S2 slow off-hand (With mongoose, which will be 20str on any new off-hand, it used to be my MH). Intend to switch to 2 slow S3 axes/maces/swords/fist next season....undecided on actual weapon type. Damage meters are crazily shifted for AoE damage. 16% WW damage, HAH!
TK/Hyjal
Hyjal trash is some crazy fun with SS and whirlwind. Nothing like seeing your screen getting just spammed with numbers everywhere.
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Originally Posted by Natural
My gut tells me that it's definitely not worth the rage/gcd for the threat.
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250 AP = how much of a DPS/TPS increase?
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Originally Posted by Nezralix
250 AP is 250/14 = 17.9 paper DPS. Assuming a 10% miss rate and 10% crit rate basically cancel out, and armor reduction is 30%, then that's 17.9*0.7*1.45 = 18.2 TPS, over the 30 seconds it lasts is 18.2*30 = 545 threat. Not including factors like Flurry, or using Bloodthirst as a threat skill (which should be possible now with Tactical Mastery). So it's at least comparable to Sunder for the time it's active.
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We could either assume an unlimited rage scenario, in that case:
What's the average possible threat increase of 250 AP for 30 seconds vs. the maximum threat possible for using one other GCD with a 0/46/15 spec? I'm not familiar with the new threat values for BT with the new TM so I've got no idea here but our options are, Revenge, BT and Sunder.
We could assume a limited rage scenario, in that case:
What's the average possible threat increase of 250 AP for 30 seconds vs. the most efficient threat generating skill using one GCD in that 0/46/15 spec? I'm assuming that, all threat generating skills being untalented, Revenge would be the top skill to use here for threat per rage (again I'm not familiar with the numbers on the new TM modified BT). So would the threat increase on Rampage costing 20 rage, lasting 30 seconds be more efficient than another skill (assumably Revenge)?
edit: Oops posted before Nezralix, he seems to be on the case and already mostly answered the question. Does anyone know the exact threat value for BT with TM?
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Originally Posted by lazerpewpew
hmmm, how did you manage to get that high percentage of miss on bloodthirst?
Bloodthirst 11.5 % (armory is down for maintenance, so can not see your gears now) |
Sorry for the long delay in post time, work gets in the way of wow sometimes. Anyway, I think we are having a good discussion, and here are some things I would like to add.
[quote=Nezralix;549548]All of the Flurry mechanics posts I've seen have basically been a large number of people saying "I think Flurry works like this, but I'm not really sure". Intuitively, I can say that knowing that yellow damage procs Flurry means that I'd rather those Flurry charges get used on my main hand than my off hand. A fast off-hand means that I'm rather likely to expend more charges on that than on my main hand, even if I do get slightly more Flurry procs as a result of a faster off-hand. Again, this is largely intuitive, so I could be mistaken, but if it functions like it seems like it should does, then I think I'm right.
I think my main point about brining up the "how does flurry work" post is that I at this point I am not sure we understand enough about flurry mechanics to make concrete claims one way or the other regarding things like how weapon speed effects the skill. What we can say is that Flurry makes you attack faster. Now I think this is where we diverge on why we see this as important. You seem to be coming from the point of view that my MH getting flurry swings instead of my off hand is better since I then get full damage from it. This is true. My view point is this however, attacking faster means that I generate more rage. More rage means more specials. More specials mean more damage. If the majority of our damage were white, I would agree with your stance about weapons. However, in my opinion, the white damage you do is gravy. As your gear gets better you should see your white damage continue to decrease over time as your rage bar takes few hits to fill up. I think this is born out by the WWS reports of higher geared warriors. This is why I say that dps on a weapon is far more important than the top end because the rage generation formula factors in weapon dps I believe.
[quote=Nezralix;549548]Your math is a bit imprecise. Yes, Bloodthirst would hit for 1575 pre-armor. But your whirlwind should hit for way more than that. Let's assume a 100 dps weapon like Rising Tide (260 average damage). With 3500 attack power, you're hitting for (3500/14)*2.4 + 260 = 860. Multiply by 1.625 for equivalent off-hand damage and you're looking at a 1398 hit. 1186 for a weapon with half that average damage, so 18% more damage with the slower weapons. Not insignificant, and even a larger difference if you have less attack power. In either case it's really pretty comparable to Bloodthirst damage, and has the slight advantage of giving you two opportunities to proc Flurry, and using a bit less rage.
Two things here. First it seems to be true that your off hand is not currently procing Flurry. I have not confirmed this, but that is something to consider. But you should also consider that since WW is two attacks is suffers from all of the bad out comes of the table twice. BT will always pull ahead simply because it's one chunk of damage with one set of possible out comes. I have never argued that the return for WW dps by using a slow off hand is insignificant. What I am saying is that in terms of your over all damage it is not worth choosing a lesser dps weapon just for the ww increase.
[quote=Nezralix;549548]Your Heroic Strikes may be accounting for that damage, but all of it isn't caused by the Heroic Strike skill damage. Most of that damage (at least 75% of it) would have been done by the white damage it added onto. So if it accounts for 19% of your damage, with the 75% figure then the skill damage itself is only accounting for 19*0.25 = 4.75% of your total damage, and you might as well add 14.25% to your white damage. Although in practice it's slightly more damage just on account of removing crushing blows and some misses.
I think that your principle does not bear out here. If this were true, you would have to calculate WW the same way seeing as it is completely based upon white damage that you would do. What is important here is that HS is a next swing attack and a yellow attack. This means a few things. First, that because it's yellow it is not subject to Glancing blows nor the usual miss rates for white attacks. Second, it benefits greatly from haste and increased weapon speed unlike our other yellow attacks. Lastly, and perhaps most importantly, because it's next swing, it can proc WF. No other special that we have can do this. Oh and in illumination of a previous point, this means that HS gets better and better with faster weapons.
To conclude, I would say that while the WW change is nice, it is not significant enough to build around. The biggest increase to our single target dps will be the advent of Expertise and 10% less agro in zerker in my opinion. Further, the goal should be to use WW and BT every time they are up AND fill in as many HS as possible because heroic strike right now is simply amazing.
[quote=Nezralix;549548]All of the Flurry mechanics posts I've seen have basically been a large number of people saying "I think Flurry works like this, but I'm not really sure". Intuitively, I can say that knowing that yellow damage procs Flurry means that I'd rather those Flurry charges get used on my main hand than my off hand. A fast off-hand means that I'm rather likely to expend more charges on that than on my main hand, even if I do get slightly more Flurry procs as a result of a faster off-hand. Again, this is largely intuitive, so I could be mistaken, but if it functions like it seems like it should does, then I think I'm right.
I think my main point about brining up the "how does flurry work" post is that I at this point I am not sure we understand enough about flurry mechanics to make concrete claims one way or the other regarding things like how weapon speed effects the skill. What we can say is that Flurry makes you attack faster. Now I think this is where we diverge on why we see this as important. You seem to be coming from the point of view that my MH getting flurry swings instead of my off hand is better since I then get full damage from it. This is true. My view point is this however, attacking faster means that I generate more rage. More rage means more specials. More specials mean more damage. If the majority of our damage were white, I would agree with your stance about weapons. However, in my opinion, the white damage you do is gravy. As your gear gets better you should see your white damage continue to decrease over time as your rage bar takes few hits to fill up. I think this is born out by the WWS reports of higher geared warriors. This is why I say that dps on a weapon is far more important than the top end because the rage generation formula factors in weapon dps I believe.
[quote=Nezralix;549548]Your math is a bit imprecise. Yes, Bloodthirst would hit for 1575 pre-armor. But your whirlwind should hit for way more than that. Let's assume a 100 dps weapon like Rising Tide (260 average damage). With 3500 attack power, you're hitting for (3500/14)*2.4 + 260 = 860. Multiply by 1.625 for equivalent off-hand damage and you're looking at a 1398 hit. 1186 for a weapon with half that average damage, so 18% more damage with the slower weapons. Not insignificant, and even a larger difference if you have less attack power. In either case it's really pretty comparable to Bloodthirst damage, and has the slight advantage of giving you two opportunities to proc Flurry, and using a bit less rage.
Two things here. First it seems to be true that your off hand is not currently procing Flurry. I have not confirmed this, but that is something to consider. But you should also consider that since WW is two attacks is suffers from all of the bad out comes of the table twice. BT will always pull ahead simply because it's one chunk of damage with one set of possible out comes. I have never argued that the return for WW dps by using a slow off hand is insignificant. What I am saying is that in terms of your over all damage it is not worth choosing a lesser dps weapon just for the ww increase.
[quote=Nezralix;549548]Your Heroic Strikes may be accounting for that damage, but all of it isn't caused by the Heroic Strike skill damage. Most of that damage (at least 75% of it) would have been done by the white damage it added onto. So if it accounts for 19% of your damage, with the 75% figure then the skill damage itself is only accounting for 19*0.25 = 4.75% of your total damage, and you might as well add 14.25% to your white damage. Although in practice it's slightly more damage just on account of removing crushing blows and some misses.
I think that your principle does not bear out here. If this were true, you would have to calculate WW the same way seeing as it is completely based upon white damage that you would do. What is important here is that HS is a next swing attack and a yellow attack. This means a few things. First, that because it's yellow it is not subject to Glancing blows nor the usual miss rates for white attacks. Second, it benefits greatly from haste and increased weapon speed unlike our other yellow attacks. Lastly, and perhaps most importantly, because it's next swing, it can proc WF. No other special that we have can do this. Oh and in illumination of a previous point, this means that HS gets better and better with faster weapons.
To conclude, I would say that while the WW change is nice, it is not significant enough to build around. The biggest increase to our single target dps will be the advent of Expertise and 10% less agro in zerker in my opinion. Further, the goal should be to use WW and BT every time they are up AND fill in as many HS as possible because heroic strike right now is simply amazing.
I'm not impressed with the new DW Fury. It certainly isn't more damage than before, I'll most likely go back to 33/28.
Has anyone else tried a 21/40 2h build for dps yet? I've just respecced last night and from the short amount of time I had to play with it I was really impressed.
20-41 > 21-40. The point of 2hand fury is to stack attack power. Giving up 275 attack power for 1 point in Arms (likely a weapon specialization) seems a little goofy for me. Myabe some WWSes might change my mind but ...
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Originally Posted by Randor
20-41 > 21-40. The point of 2hand fury is to stack attack power. Giving up 275 attack power for 1 point in Arms (likely a weapon specialization) seems a little goofy for me. Myabe some WWSes might change my mind but ...
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Originally Posted by Ren
You get Death Wish with the 21st point.
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Originally Posted by Randor
Ah. Forgot about that. Haven't done Arms since the patch. Be interesting to see how 275 atp vs. DW goes.
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Edited onPatch 2.3.0
Alright i have a couple questions regarding 2.3
I did some testing last night in ssc. Yes we do lose dps overall on straight dps on bosses but we gain some +'s to trash killing and aoe type packs. but heres what i want to get down to.
I currently use decpitator 92.1 dps and Gladiator's Quickblade. crappy weapons i know but as soon as season 3 hits im curious as to what i should get. Im for sure getting the 1h Mace for MH but im debating wether or not to get 2 1h Maces or get the OH mace. im looking for overall boss dps here and not trash dps. im running roughly 200 hit rating 1850 AP and 31% crit unbuffed in zerker. problem is i came accross a few times where i would be short on rage on morogrim last night. i did not have a feral druid or a shaman in the group. i had hunters with drums and FI and i hit 900 dps on that fight. is this low or about average? you can check my armory for gear wise.
What is better after 2.3 2 2.7 speed 1h maces at 103.1 dps or 1 2.7 speed 1h mace and a 1.5 speed 103.1 dps OH. im leading to believe that due to my lack of rage at times during the fight could lead that i was low on crit. i did have sharpening stones and was at about 34% raid buffed. so im either thinking i need a harder hitting OH or more crit.
Also Executioner, what do you guys think of this? any feedback on tests? Im thinking of running Mongoose/executioner or just stick to mongoose/+20 str
Lode did you do the testing yet on Executioner?
I did some testing last night in ssc. Yes we do lose dps overall on straight dps on bosses but we gain some +'s to trash killing and aoe type packs. but heres what i want to get down to.
I currently use decpitator 92.1 dps and Gladiator's Quickblade. crappy weapons i know but as soon as season 3 hits im curious as to what i should get. Im for sure getting the 1h Mace for MH but im debating wether or not to get 2 1h Maces or get the OH mace. im looking for overall boss dps here and not trash dps. im running roughly 200 hit rating 1850 AP and 31% crit unbuffed in zerker. problem is i came accross a few times where i would be short on rage on morogrim last night. i did not have a feral druid or a shaman in the group. i had hunters with drums and FI and i hit 900 dps on that fight. is this low or about average? you can check my armory for gear wise.
What is better after 2.3 2 2.7 speed 1h maces at 103.1 dps or 1 2.7 speed 1h mace and a 1.5 speed 103.1 dps OH. im leading to believe that due to my lack of rage at times during the fight could lead that i was low on crit. i did have sharpening stones and was at about 34% raid buffed. so im either thinking i need a harder hitting OH or more crit.
Also Executioner, what do you guys think of this? any feedback on tests? Im thinking of running Mongoose/executioner or just stick to mongoose/+20 str
Lode did you do the testing yet on Executioner?
Last edited by Kesslar : 11/15/07 at 8:04 PM.
We didn't end up getting our Hyjal clear for WWS, I forgot to turn on the log, and the person that primarily records forgot as well. Anyway, this was from last night's BT. I am not feeling a loss of DPS at all and on some fights it's remained the same or gone up. Maybe I was just a horrible Fury Warrior before and I also didn't chain guzzle haste pots until we entered BT simply because the ingredients are hard to get on our AH and I am not an herbalist.
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Edited onPatch 2.3.0
Hey guys, I don't mean to throw a wrench in the current discussion, but I was hoping for some advice on some weapons.
Currently I have Dragonstrike, Blade of Infamy, and Swiftsteel Bludgeon at my disposal. Any suggestions for MH/OH would be much appreciated. Thanks in advance.
Currently I have Dragonstrike, Blade of Infamy, and Swiftsteel Bludgeon at my disposal. Any suggestions for MH/OH would be much appreciated. Thanks in advance.
Last edited by Fexus : 11/15/07 at 8:48 PM.
Dragonstrike MH
Blade of Infamy OH
Blade of Infamy OH
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Originally Posted by Hozz
Dragonstrike MH
Blade of Infamy OH |
Example for the difference between 2.2 and 2.3 in AoE-damage encounters and the viability of expertise (Dragonstrike / S2 Slow Mace OH):
Last night at Karathress - over 100 DPS increase compared to last time when I was there (only BM hunter as support):
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Last night at Karathress - over 100 DPS increase compared to last time when I was there (only BM hunter as support):
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Originally Posted by Kaan
Example for the difference between 2.2 and 2.3 in AoE-damage encounters and the viability of expertise (Dragonstrike / S2 Slow Mace OH):
Last night at Karathress - over 100 DPS increase compared to last time when I was there (only BM hunter as support): Loading... |
AOE encounters too, there is no doubt our trash/multi target DPS was going up with WW getting an offhand swing in and a 10 charge SS replacing Deathwish...how many of those fights are there though, outside of trash?
Not everyone is a Human, or an Orc, and most bosses involve single target DPS. 17/44 was nerfed and unless they make some changes, the spec is terminal.
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Originally Posted by Hozz
Not everyone is a Human, or an Orc, and most bosses involve single target DPS. 17/44 was nerfed and unless they make some changes, the spec is terminal.
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Edited onPatch 2.3.0
I've been having some trouble lately - notably over the past month or so my DPS (using Gorefiend as an example) has gone down week by week.
About a month ago I hit ~1550 DPS, the next week was 1400, week after 1330, and this week I only pulled about 1260.
Tonight's WWS: Kiranat - WWS
Last Week's WWS: Wow Web Stats
On this latest attempt Recklessness was down (1% wipe the pull before), but I simply cannot figure out how I lost nearly 300 DPS while improving my gear and, if anything, becoming even more strict on my timing for a slam rotation.
The only thing I can see that's a big difference is that my miss rate has gone up. I've only been able to swap out gear to get to 117 hit (vs the ~100 previously needed by humans) but I would think that between the Expertise and Weapon Mastery that my miss rate would have effectively gone DOWN. Of course, on top of this I stand to lose an additional 22 hit rating by picking up the Divine Retribution legs off Bloodboil...
My current stats are roughly as follows: 1940 AP, 31% Crit, ~900 armor penetration.
Any ideas? Would it be worthwhile to drop ~30 AP/175 armor ignore to go back to my Worgen Claw neck to gain some crit/hit after I pick up Leggings of Divine Retribution?
As for future gear plans: I'm 1st in line for Bloodboil pants/ring, 2nd in line for Souls boots. We've never seen either drop in over two months of kills :\ Madness of the Betrayer is a long way off, and Tsuanmi Talisman is not an option as we no longer run SSC. I plan on swapping out Savagery for Executioner when S3 hits and I pick up a new PVP weapon.
About a month ago I hit ~1550 DPS, the next week was 1400, week after 1330, and this week I only pulled about 1260.
Tonight's WWS: Kiranat - WWS
Last Week's WWS: Wow Web Stats
On this latest attempt Recklessness was down (1% wipe the pull before), but I simply cannot figure out how I lost nearly 300 DPS while improving my gear and, if anything, becoming even more strict on my timing for a slam rotation.
The only thing I can see that's a big difference is that my miss rate has gone up. I've only been able to swap out gear to get to 117 hit (vs the ~100 previously needed by humans) but I would think that between the Expertise and Weapon Mastery that my miss rate would have effectively gone DOWN. Of course, on top of this I stand to lose an additional 22 hit rating by picking up the Divine Retribution legs off Bloodboil...
My current stats are roughly as follows: 1940 AP, 31% Crit, ~900 armor penetration.
Any ideas? Would it be worthwhile to drop ~30 AP/175 armor ignore to go back to my Worgen Claw neck to gain some crit/hit after I pick up Leggings of Divine Retribution?
As for future gear plans: I'm 1st in line for Bloodboil pants/ring, 2nd in line for Souls boots. We've never seen either drop in over two months of kills :\ Madness of the Betrayer is a long way off, and Tsuanmi Talisman is not an option as we no longer run SSC. I plan on swapping out Savagery for Executioner when S3 hits and I pick up a new PVP weapon.
Last edited by Kiranat : 11/16/07 at 4:26 AM.
From checking a few pages on the combat log from that WWS you posted, you seem to be hitting slams about 2-2.5 seconds after your melee. Maybe try using an attack swing timer add on so you can slam directly after your white hit. Your slams should be hitting within one second of your melee.
Other than that just make sure to stay over hit cap, for 2h it's crucial.
Other than that just make sure to stay over hit cap, for 2h it's crucial.
I'm using Quartz and, while it's not the greatest, I'd like to this that that's being parsed incorrectly.... Either that or WoW is reporting my ping as 2000MS too low. That honestly wouldn't suprise me though, my connection is truly horrible.
Looking through it again it appears that most slams are starting .5 to .7s too late which I think can be attributed to my connection. Hopefully that will be resolved when I switch ISPs towards the end of the month.
Looking through it again it appears that most slams are starting .5 to .7s too late which I think can be attributed to my connection. Hopefully that will be resolved when I switch ISPs towards the end of the month.
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Originally Posted by Kaan
Well I agree with this, I don't wanted to show, that our DPS improved... it's only an example how it improved on multitarget fights. Didn't use the human expertise bug though I could do that. I think 5 expertise and the -2% dodge from weapon mastery are more than enough (had 1% dodge during this fight... this is neglible).
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Moreover, I feel like I'm having way more fun with Sweeping Strikes. That being said, of course Death Wish should still be somewhat brought back, be it in place of a talent or making it trainable.
One question now. I usually end up very high in the %damage done chart(#4 on Karatress and Hydross) even with some blue pieces and still a few enchants missing, but sometimes I'm behind people who dealt 100k damage less than me in the DPS one. Any tips on why? In my personal WoW experience though I have to say that the damage done chart is far more important, but I still can't figure out the reason of this.
It's due to how the damage meters calculate DPS, which is far from accurate. Basically I think it only counts time into the DPS equation 2 seconds after your last cast, you'll note it's normally casters that have the higher DPS/lower overall damage thing.
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Originally Posted by Zalein
It's due to how the damage meters calculate DPS, which is far from accurate. Basically I think it only counts time into the DPS equation 2 seconds after your last cast, you'll note it's normally casters that have the higher DPS/lower overall damage thing.
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Armory link (ms spec atm)
http://www.wowarmory.com/character-s...idan&n=Gerbell
2.3 Teron Gorefiend kill. Had a resto shaman and no other group buffs.
1520 sustained DPS
WWS: Gerbell - WWS
Not the highest dps out there, but my gear is kind of bad and I wasn't in the melee group. Definitely didn't lose much damage from the patch and in fact I may have gained some.
http://www.wowarmory.com/character-s...idan&n=Gerbell
2.3 Teron Gorefiend kill. Had a resto shaman and no other group buffs.
1520 sustained DPS
WWS: Gerbell - WWS
Not the highest dps out there, but my gear is kind of bad and I wasn't in the melee group. Definitely didn't lose much damage from the patch and in fact I may have gained some.
Here's my WWS from my first night of raiding with executioner....set some record crits for SS, which is also new for me :P
1 Kael wipe and kael kill...not every important due to legendary weapons
Rage kill.
2 Anetheron wipes and our first Anetheron kill (YAY! just killed Kael on monday, so Hyjal is new to me)
Talon of the Phoenix with executioner and S2 slow off-hand (With mongoose, which will be 20str on any new off-hand, it used to be my MH). Intend to switch to 2 slow S3 axes/maces/swords/fist next season....undecided on actual weapon type. Damage meters are crazily shifted for AoE damage. 16% WW damage, HAH!
TK/Hyjal
Hyjal trash is some crazy fun with SS and whirlwind. Nothing like seeing your screen getting just spammed with numbers everywhere.
1 Kael wipe and kael kill...not every important due to legendary weapons
Rage kill.
2 Anetheron wipes and our first Anetheron kill (YAY! just killed Kael on monday, so Hyjal is new to me)
Talon of the Phoenix with executioner and S2 slow off-hand (With mongoose, which will be 20str on any new off-hand, it used to be my MH). Intend to switch to 2 slow S3 axes/maces/swords/fist next season....undecided on actual weapon type. Damage meters are crazily shifted for AoE damage. 16% WW damage, HAH!
TK/Hyjal
Hyjal trash is some crazy fun with SS and whirlwind. Nothing like seeing your screen getting just spammed with numbers everywhere.
I have a questions, concerning ss.
Is it considered yellow dmg? That means, I pop it and my next 10 swings are modified as "special"-dmg without the constraints to "normal"-dmg. Did anybody test that already? I didn't have the time to test, yet.
Is it considered yellow dmg? That means, I pop it and my next 10 swings are modified as "special"-dmg without the constraints to "normal"-dmg. Did anybody test that already? I didn't have the time to test, yet.
It's not really white or yellow to my knowledge. You turn on SS, and your next 10 attacks don't change, whether they be auto-attacks, executes, bloodthirsts, cleaves...etc, they happen exactly as normal. In ADDITION to those "normal" attacks, the next closest mob takes similar damage to the damage done by those 10 charges.
According to my WWS report, there were no reported misses, dodges or parries of a SS hit, although that could be a logging error.
The 10 SS charge consuming attacks are not affected in any way.
According to my WWS report, there were no reported misses, dodges or parries of a SS hit, although that could be a logging error.
The 10 SS charge consuming attacks are not affected in any way.
Was that WWS tested on a single target or were the SS extra attacks not being missed/parried/etc? In other words, if you pop SS on a boss, would you're next 10 white attacks apply to the 9% miss chance for special attacks?
The "source" damage is not affected in any way. Popping SS on a single mob does essentially nothing.
SS attacks are attacks that are done in addition to the attack you just did. It does the same damage as the attack that just hit, modified by armor. SS attacks cannot be parried, dodged, miss, glance or crit, as they are simply a duplicate of the damage you already did do, and do not replace the attack you did.
Thx, just wanted to be sure. I will put a lvl 70 mob in front of my lvl 73 bosses now 
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Originally Posted by DKP-Borgar
Thx, just wanted to be sure. I will put a lvl 70 mob in front of my lvl 73 bosses now
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I'm wondering if this has been asked already, or if everyone else has been contemplating this same problem since 2.3 came out. Pre-patch 33/28 was, to put it bluntly, the shit. But I'm curious as to what the balance of power is now between 17/44 and 33/28. Yes, the base calculation on Blood Frenzy effectiveness remains the same (17/44 DPS - 4% of physical raid DPS = minimum 33/28 DPS needed), but I haven't really had a chance to go back to DW and test out my new and improved pewpew against the kind of raid contribution I have now. Are the BF warriors going to have to kick it up a notch in order to justify staying that spec, or is it still relatively unchanged?
Relatively unchanged, from what I saw last week. We run 2 DPS warriors, a 33-28 and a 17-44 and things seems to be pretty much the same. Arms may be a little better on bosses with the loss of DW in Fury but Fury is much, much better on trash and multiple mobs. The threat reduction may also be helping. I was able to go back to 12 agi on my cloak over subtlety and hardly pulled agro once.
Major Flurry Bug:
I just tested it and this is also a warrior problem. If you have only one flurry charge left, you wont proc flurry with the next critical hit.
I just tested it and this is also a warrior problem. If you have only one flurry charge left, you wont proc flurry with the next critical hit.
any word whether s3 mh is better than dragonstrike or not?
Both S3 1handers are better compared to anything else you can get (including warglaives) according to spreadsheet.
|
Originally Posted by SentinelBorg
Major Flurry Bug:
I just tested it and this is also a warrior problem. If you have only one flurry charge left, you wont proc flurry with the next critical hit. |
|
Originally Posted by Goodlive
Both S3 1handers are better compared to anything else you can get (including warglaives) according to spreadsheet.
|
|
Originally Posted by Graul
Add the haste that the spreadsheet does not include and it's a different story. S3 are not Warglaive quality, but they are better than everything else up to them.
|
Heya,
I'm starting my career as DPS warrior, but I'm having some hard times to actually do some DPS. I got a lunar crescent and have some kara gear, 2 tier4, some heroic's gear and thats all. I used to have a rogue with better gear, and was able to do about 900~1000dps with it. Things seems to be a little hard to the warrior world
As of now i'm 33/28/0, and mainly using MS and WW, with slam when I have the rage to use it (timing it with the swing time of my weapon).
My question is: is it all? I mean, with this just-starting-kara gear all I can do is around 500dps?
Link to armoury
Thanks for any input.
I'm starting my career as DPS warrior, but I'm having some hard times to actually do some DPS. I got a lunar crescent and have some kara gear, 2 tier4, some heroic's gear and thats all. I used to have a rogue with better gear, and was able to do about 900~1000dps with it. Things seems to be a little hard to the warrior world
As of now i'm 33/28/0, and mainly using MS and WW, with slam when I have the rage to use it (timing it with the swing time of my weapon).My question is: is it all? I mean, with this just-starting-kara gear all I can do is around 500dps?
Link to armoury
Thanks for any input.
Edited onPatch 2.3.0
|
Originally Posted by vultur
Heya,
I'm starting my career as DPS warrior, but I'm having some hard times to actually do some DPS. I got a lunar crescent and have some kara gear, 2 tier4, some heroic's gear and thats all. I used to have a rogue with better gear, and was able to do about 900~1000dps with it. Things seems to be a little hard to the warrior world As of now i'm 33/28/0, and mainly using MS and WW, with slam when I have the rage to use it (timing it with the swing time of my weapon).My question is: is it all? I mean, with this just-starting-kara gear all I can do is around 500dps? Link to armoury Thanks for any input. |
You're over hit cap for 2h as well. I'd advise changing all the gems in your belt and leggings to strait crit or strength gems. Also start farming the mats for a [Vengeance Wrap]. Even if you plan on changing from 2h to DW, it's a better cloak than Arathi Kings.
Your crit seems pretty low for an axe spec warrior, I'd look to try and shore that up. I think the [Ring of Arathi Warlords] and [Veteran's Band of Triumph] are both good, easily obtainable 2h rings that would help up your crit a decent amount. [Black Felsteel Bracers] Are also a very good option for upping crit.
Are you in a group with a shaman dropping windfury totem? I know that when I tried out 33/28 a few weeks ago my damage was severely hamstrung by lack of windfury. Proper group support in general, even after you've got the gear to keep your cycle churning most of the time, is pretty key for DPS warriors to shine, so if you're getting stuck in some random group without a shaman and/or a feral druid it can hurt your potential a lot.
Other than that I can't think of much more to say. Get rare quality gems in all your sockets, enchant all your gear with the best enchants available.
-Edit: Forgot to add, base miss chance with a two hander is 9% against raid bosses, so you only need 143 hit rating to cap out. I'd aim for as close to that number as possible, erring high, then leave hit alone.
Last edited by Katrael : 11/18/07 at 10:59 PM.
This post is directed to those doing T6 instances and anyone having tested armor penetration. Basically as I understand it, every point of armor penetration offers more of a DPS increase than the previous point of armor penetration you invested in. My question is basically, with what amount of armor penetration can you start valuing armor penetration over other stats? I'm just heading into BT and MH myself and want to plan my gear choices ahead a bit. Also, with 2.3 there is a bunch more armor penetration gear available.
Anyways, any info on this is appreciated.
Anyways, any info on this is appreciated.
Heya Katrael,
Thanks The hit is sort of complicated. Since i'm still using alot of leather there isn't much I can do since they're rogue gear mostly. I'll try to bump my crit a tad, actually it was around 30% in zerker stance and I got it down to 28% ir zerker stance do bump my AP a little.
Thanks
The hit is sort of complicated. Since i'm still using alot of leather there isn't much I can do since they're rogue gear mostly. I'll try to bump my crit a tad, actually it was around 30% in zerker stance and I got it down to 28% ir zerker stance do bump my AP a little.vultur, with a 2h build crit can actually be worth more output dps than AP for some levels of gear. With sub 30% crit you may have problems keeping flurry up (even with a 2h weapon, which otherwise need way less crit than DW to keep flurry up). I would value 1 crit rating to be worth something like 2.2 AP (i.e. 1 crit rating = 1.1 str, neglecting BoK).
Also, Slam is an incredibly powerful ability if correctly used, asfaik the best possible dps for a slam-2h build is to make a cycle like (with Slam always triggered immediately after the white attack):
Autoattack-Slam-MS
Autoattack-Slam-WW
Autoattack-Slam-MS
Autoattack-Slam-(Hamstring if you have Sword spec or Battleshout or just save rage)
If you don't get enough rage to maintain this, skip WW and do it whenever you have the rage and MS is on cd.
Also, Slam is an incredibly powerful ability if correctly used, asfaik the best possible dps for a slam-2h build is to make a cycle like (with Slam always triggered immediately after the white attack):
Autoattack-Slam-MS
Autoattack-Slam-WW
Autoattack-Slam-MS
Autoattack-Slam-(Hamstring if you have Sword spec or Battleshout or just save rage)
If you don't get enough rage to maintain this, skip WW and do it whenever you have the rage and MS is on cd.
So anyone worked executioner into the spreadsheet to test whether dual executioner is > dual mongoose ? or a combination of the two?
Executioner MH Mongoose OH seems to be the best combo since Executioner can't stack in the first place.
I'd like some input on my talent build and gear choices, and also the most efficient way to do DPS on raids. I have pretty good gear on paper, but I seem to be underperforming most of the time.
Here's a recent WWS from Teron:
WWS
That's obviously prepatch, and I seem to be missing a lot, but I seem to remember Teron dodging/parrying a lot even from behind. I usually am threat capped in the beginning minutes of a fight, but then fall off, so I guess I'm not being as efficient as I could be. My gear is in the armory profile, I got [Grips of Silent Justice] and [Dreadboots of the Legion], and I gemmed them 8str+8str on the gloves and +10hit +10 crit on the boots. These are not in the profile since I quit with alt-f4 last night..
I usually use my rage as follows:
BT when up
WW when up
If BT and WW are up, first BT, then WW.
If rage > 45, HS.
At 20%, swap offhand to mainhand, and start executing until dead.
Anyone see anything obvious I'm doing wrong?
Here's a recent WWS from Teron:
WWS
That's obviously prepatch, and I seem to be missing a lot, but I seem to remember Teron dodging/parrying a lot even from behind. I usually am threat capped in the beginning minutes of a fight, but then fall off, so I guess I'm not being as efficient as I could be. My gear is in the armory profile, I got [Grips of Silent Justice] and [Dreadboots of the Legion], and I gemmed them 8str+8str on the gloves and +10hit +10 crit on the boots. These are not in the profile since I quit with alt-f4 last night..
I usually use my rage as follows:
BT when up
WW when up
If BT and WW are up, first BT, then WW.
If rage > 45, HS.
At 20%, swap offhand to mainhand, and start executing until dead.
Anyone see anything obvious I'm doing wrong?
|
Originally Posted by dahakon
I'd like some input on my talent build and gear choices, and also the most efficient way to do DPS on raids. I have pretty good gear on paper, but I seem to be underperforming most of the time.
Here's a recent WWS from Teron: WWS That's obviously prepatch, and I seem to be missing a lot, but I seem to remember Teron dodging/parrying a lot even from behind. I usually am threat capped in the beginning minutes of a fight, but then fall off, so I guess I'm not being as efficient as I could be. My gear is in the armory profile, I got [Grips of Silent Justice] and [Dreadboots of the Legion], and I gemmed them 8str+8str on the gloves and +10hit +10 crit on the boots. These are not in the profile since I quit with alt-f4 last night.. I usually use my rage as follows: BT when up WW when up If BT and WW are up, first BT, then WW. If rage > 45, HS. At 20%, swap offhand to mainhand, and start executing until dead. Anyone see anything obvious I'm doing wrong? |
Change your meta to the 3% increased critical meta gem, and gem your gear appropriately for their socket bonuses. Also replace the hit gem in your Dreadboots with either a 10 crit or 5 crit 5 str.
Hey Quixotic, when I was oggling over your gear and such on the Armory I noticed you had a preference for +10 Crit gems, giving you something like 35% Crit I assume in zerker stance.
I was curious why you opted for pure 10 Crit over the hybrid gem 5str/5crit?
I was curious why you opted for pure 10 Crit over the hybrid gem 5str/5crit?
I have a questions, concerning ss.
Is it considered yellow dmg? That means, I pop it and my next 10 swings are modified as "special"-dmg without the constraints to "normal"-dmg. Did anybody test that already? I didn't have the time to test, yet.
Is it considered yellow dmg? That means, I pop it and my next 10 swings are modified as "special"-dmg without the constraints to "normal"-dmg. Did anybody test that already? I didn't have the time to test, yet.
It's not really white or yellow to my knowledge. You turn on SS, and your next 10 attacks don't change, whether they be auto-attacks, executes, bloodthirsts, cleaves...etc, they happen exactly as normal. In ADDITION to those "normal" attacks, the next closest mob takes similar damage to the damage done by those 10 charges.
According to my WWS report, there were no reported misses, dodges or parries of a SS hit, although that could be a logging error.
The 10 SS charge consuming attacks are not affected in any way.
According to my WWS report, there were no reported misses, dodges or parries of a SS hit, although that could be a logging error.
The 10 SS charge consuming attacks are not affected in any way.
Was that WWS tested on a single target or were the SS extra attacks not being missed/parried/etc? In other words, if you pop SS on a boss, would you're next 10 white attacks apply to the 9% miss chance for special attacks?
The "source" damage is not affected in any way. Popping SS on a single mob does essentially nothing.
SS attacks are attacks that are done in addition to the attack you just did. It does the same damage as the attack that just hit, modified by armor. SS attacks cannot be parried, dodged, miss, glance or crit, as they are simply a duplicate of the damage you already did do, and do not replace the attack you did.
Thx, just wanted to be sure. I will put a lvl 70 mob in front of my lvl 73 bosses now
|
Originally Posted by DKP-Borgar
Thx, just wanted to be sure. I will put a lvl 70 mob in front of my lvl 73 bosses now
|
I'm wondering if this has been asked already, or if everyone else has been contemplating this same problem since 2.3 came out. Pre-patch 33/28 was, to put it bluntly, the shit. But I'm curious as to what the balance of power is now between 17/44 and 33/28. Yes, the base calculation on Blood Frenzy effectiveness remains the same (17/44 DPS - 4% of physical raid DPS = minimum 33/28 DPS needed), but I haven't really had a chance to go back to DW and test out my new and improved pewpew against the kind of raid contribution I have now. Are the BF warriors going to have to kick it up a notch in order to justify staying that spec, or is it still relatively unchanged?
Relatively unchanged, from what I saw last week. We run 2 DPS warriors, a 33-28 and a 17-44 and things seems to be pretty much the same. Arms may be a little better on bosses with the loss of DW in Fury but Fury is much, much better on trash and multiple mobs. The threat reduction may also be helping. I was able to go back to 12 agi on my cloak over subtlety and hardly pulled agro once.
Major Flurry Bug:
I just tested it and this is also a warrior problem. If you have only one flurry charge left, you wont proc flurry with the next critical hit.
I just tested it and this is also a warrior problem. If you have only one flurry charge left, you wont proc flurry with the next critical hit.
any word whether s3 mh is better than dragonstrike or not?
Both S3 1handers are better compared to anything else you can get (including warglaives) according to spreadsheet.
|
Originally Posted by SentinelBorg
Major Flurry Bug:
I just tested it and this is also a warrior problem. If you have only one flurry charge left, you wont proc flurry with the next critical hit. |
|
Originally Posted by Goodlive
Both S3 1handers are better compared to anything else you can get (including warglaives) according to spreadsheet.
|
|
Originally Posted by Graul
Add the haste that the spreadsheet does not include and it's a different story. S3 are not Warglaive quality, but they are better than everything else up to them.
|
Heya,
I'm starting my career as DPS warrior, but I'm having some hard times to actually do some DPS. I got a lunar crescent and have some kara gear, 2 tier4, some heroic's gear and thats all. I used to have a rogue with better gear, and was able to do about 900~1000dps with it. Things seems to be a little hard to the warrior world As of now i'm 33/28/0, and mainly using MS and WW, with slam when I have the rage to use it (timing it with the swing time of my weapon).
My question is: is it all? I mean, with this just-starting-kara gear all I can do is around 500dps?
Link to armoury
Thanks for any input.
I'm starting my career as DPS warrior, but I'm having some hard times to actually do some DPS. I got a lunar crescent and have some kara gear, 2 tier4, some heroic's gear and thats all. I used to have a rogue with better gear, and was able to do about 900~1000dps with it. Things seems to be a little hard to the warrior world
As of now i'm 33/28/0, and mainly using MS and WW, with slam when I have the rage to use it (timing it with the swing time of my weapon).My question is: is it all? I mean, with this just-starting-kara gear all I can do is around 500dps?
Link to armoury
Thanks for any input.
Edited onPatch 2.3.0
|
Originally Posted by vultur
Heya,
I'm starting my career as DPS warrior, but I'm having some hard times to actually do some DPS. I got a lunar crescent and have some kara gear, 2 tier4, some heroic's gear and thats all. I used to have a rogue with better gear, and was able to do about 900~1000dps with it. Things seems to be a little hard to the warrior world As of now i'm 33/28/0, and mainly using MS and WW, with slam when I have the rage to use it (timing it with the swing time of my weapon).My question is: is it all? I mean, with this just-starting-kara gear all I can do is around 500dps? Link to armoury Thanks for any input. |
You're over hit cap for 2h as well. I'd advise changing all the gems in your belt and leggings to strait crit or strength gems. Also start farming the mats for a [Vengeance Wrap]. Even if you plan on changing from 2h to DW, it's a better cloak than Arathi Kings.
Your crit seems pretty low for an axe spec warrior, I'd look to try and shore that up. I think the [Ring of Arathi Warlords] and [Veteran's Band of Triumph] are both good, easily obtainable 2h rings that would help up your crit a decent amount. [Black Felsteel Bracers] Are also a very good option for upping crit.
Are you in a group with a shaman dropping windfury totem? I know that when I tried out 33/28 a few weeks ago my damage was severely hamstrung by lack of windfury. Proper group support in general, even after you've got the gear to keep your cycle churning most of the time, is pretty key for DPS warriors to shine, so if you're getting stuck in some random group without a shaman and/or a feral druid it can hurt your potential a lot.
Other than that I can't think of much more to say. Get rare quality gems in all your sockets, enchant all your gear with the best enchants available.
-Edit: Forgot to add, base miss chance with a two hander is 9% against raid bosses, so you only need 143 hit rating to cap out. I'd aim for as close to that number as possible, erring high, then leave hit alone.
Last edited by Katrael : 11/18/07 at 10:59 PM.
This post is directed to those doing T6 instances and anyone having tested armor penetration. Basically as I understand it, every point of armor penetration offers more of a DPS increase than the previous point of armor penetration you invested in. My question is basically, with what amount of armor penetration can you start valuing armor penetration over other stats? I'm just heading into BT and MH myself and want to plan my gear choices ahead a bit. Also, with 2.3 there is a bunch more armor penetration gear available.
Anyways, any info on this is appreciated.
Anyways, any info on this is appreciated.
Heya Katrael,
Thanks The hit is sort of complicated. Since i'm still using alot of leather there isn't much I can do since they're rogue gear mostly. I'll try to bump my crit a tad, actually it was around 30% in zerker stance and I got it down to 28% ir zerker stance do bump my AP a little.
Thanks
The hit is sort of complicated. Since i'm still using alot of leather there isn't much I can do since they're rogue gear mostly. I'll try to bump my crit a tad, actually it was around 30% in zerker stance and I got it down to 28% ir zerker stance do bump my AP a little.vultur, with a 2h build crit can actually be worth more output dps than AP for some levels of gear. With sub 30% crit you may have problems keeping flurry up (even with a 2h weapon, which otherwise need way less crit than DW to keep flurry up). I would value 1 crit rating to be worth something like 2.2 AP (i.e. 1 crit rating = 1.1 str, neglecting BoK).
Also, Slam is an incredibly powerful ability if correctly used, asfaik the best possible dps for a slam-2h build is to make a cycle like (with Slam always triggered immediately after the white attack):
Autoattack-Slam-MS
Autoattack-Slam-WW
Autoattack-Slam-MS
Autoattack-Slam-(Hamstring if you have Sword spec or Battleshout or just save rage)
If you don't get enough rage to maintain this, skip WW and do it whenever you have the rage and MS is on cd.
Also, Slam is an incredibly powerful ability if correctly used, asfaik the best possible dps for a slam-2h build is to make a cycle like (with Slam always triggered immediately after the white attack):
Autoattack-Slam-MS
Autoattack-Slam-WW
Autoattack-Slam-MS
Autoattack-Slam-(Hamstring if you have Sword spec or Battleshout or just save rage)
If you don't get enough rage to maintain this, skip WW and do it whenever you have the rage and MS is on cd.
So anyone worked executioner into the spreadsheet to test whether dual executioner is > dual mongoose ? or a combination of the two?
Executioner MH Mongoose OH seems to be the best combo since Executioner can't stack in the first place.
I'd like some input on my talent build and gear choices, and also the most efficient way to do DPS on raids. I have pretty good gear on paper, but I seem to be underperforming most of the time.
Here's a recent WWS from Teron:
WWS
That's obviously prepatch, and I seem to be missing a lot, but I seem to remember Teron dodging/parrying a lot even from behind. I usually am threat capped in the beginning minutes of a fight, but then fall off, so I guess I'm not being as efficient as I could be. My gear is in the armory profile, I got [Grips of Silent Justice] and [Dreadboots of the Legion], and I gemmed them 8str+8str on the gloves and +10hit +10 crit on the boots. These are not in the profile since I quit with alt-f4 last night..
I usually use my rage as follows:
BT when up
WW when up
If BT and WW are up, first BT, then WW.
If rage > 45, HS.
At 20%, swap offhand to mainhand, and start executing until dead.
Anyone see anything obvious I'm doing wrong?
Here's a recent WWS from Teron:
WWS
That's obviously prepatch, and I seem to be missing a lot, but I seem to remember Teron dodging/parrying a lot even from behind. I usually am threat capped in the beginning minutes of a fight, but then fall off, so I guess I'm not being as efficient as I could be. My gear is in the armory profile, I got [Grips of Silent Justice] and [Dreadboots of the Legion], and I gemmed them 8str+8str on the gloves and +10hit +10 crit on the boots. These are not in the profile since I quit with alt-f4 last night..
I usually use my rage as follows:
BT when up
WW when up
If BT and WW are up, first BT, then WW.
If rage > 45, HS.
At 20%, swap offhand to mainhand, and start executing until dead.
Anyone see anything obvious I'm doing wrong?
|
Originally Posted by dahakon
I'd like some input on my talent build and gear choices, and also the most efficient way to do DPS on raids. I have pretty good gear on paper, but I seem to be underperforming most of the time.
Here's a recent WWS from Teron: WWS That's obviously prepatch, and I seem to be missing a lot, but I seem to remember Teron dodging/parrying a lot even from behind. I usually am threat capped in the beginning minutes of a fight, but then fall off, so I guess I'm not being as efficient as I could be. My gear is in the armory profile, I got [Grips of Silent Justice] and [Dreadboots of the Legion], and I gemmed them 8str+8str on the gloves and +10hit +10 crit on the boots. These are not in the profile since I quit with alt-f4 last night.. I usually use my rage as follows: BT when up WW when up If BT and WW are up, first BT, then WW. If rage > 45, HS. At 20%, swap offhand to mainhand, and start executing until dead. Anyone see anything obvious I'm doing wrong? |
Change your meta to the 3% increased critical meta gem, and gem your gear appropriately for their socket bonuses. Also replace the hit gem in your Dreadboots with either a 10 crit or 5 crit 5 str.
Hey Quixotic, when I was oggling over your gear and such on the Armory I noticed you had a preference for +10 Crit gems, giving you something like 35% Crit I assume in zerker stance.
I was curious why you opted for pure 10 Crit over the hybrid gem 5str/5crit?
I was curious why you opted for pure 10 Crit over the hybrid gem 5str/5crit?
|
Originally Posted by Emeraude
Hey Quixotic, when I was oggling over your gear and such on the Armory I noticed you had a preference for +10 Crit gems, giving you something like 35% Crit I assume in zerker stance.
I was curious why you opted for pure 10 Crit over the hybrid gem 5str/5crit? |
Edited onPatch 2.3.0
|
Originally Posted by dahakon
I'd like some input on my talent build and gear choices, and also the most efficient way to do DPS on raids. I have pretty good gear on paper, but I seem to be underperforming most of the time.
Here's a recent WWS from Teron: WWS That's obviously prepatch, and I seem to be missing a lot, but I seem to remember Teron dodging/parrying a lot even from behind. I usually am threat capped in the beginning minutes of a fight, but then fall off, so I guess I'm not being as efficient as I could be. My gear is in the armory profile, I got [Grips of Silent Justice] and [Dreadboots of the Legion], and I gemmed them 8str+8str on the gloves and +10hit +10 crit on the boots. These are not in the profile since I quit with alt-f4 last night.. I usually use my rage as follows: BT when up WW when up If BT and WW are up, first BT, then WW. If rage > 45, HS. At 20%, swap offhand to mainhand, and start executing until dead. Anyone see anything obvious I'm doing wrong? |
You should change your meta to the relentless earthstorm diamond as quioxtic mentioned above and in order to meet the meta requirement for it you'll need to regem a couple of your pieces. Check out the sockets on your red belt of battle, the socket bonus is nice, eh? So in order to meet the meta requirement you'll need to throw in a green or purple gem into the blue slot. Also, check out your bracers. They also have a very nice socket bonus of 2 strength. Go ahead and throw a green or blue into that piece too. Not only will you lose very little in terms of raw stats, you'll gain access to the best dps meta in the game. Trust me, it is very much worth it.
As far as your dreadboots go, that's a good start but I wouldn't worry about putting hit gems into a yellow socket. Just toss two +10 crit ones in and you'll do much better. Hit is a devalued stat when you have as much as you do right now. You're going to gain a better increase in damage if you shoot for stats like armor pen, crit, and strength.
Which brings me to my next point. Get more armor pen!! It is an absolutely beautiful fury warrior stat and you should look for it wherever you can fit some in. I use the badge reward bracers for example. They do not have crit on them, but I noticed that you run with a feral druid in your group, so a slight loss of crit will not be an issue at all. Look for a couple pieces of gear that are heavy on armor pen and not so much on crit (hyjal trash neck is another one).
Also, grab a season 3 1hander or two when the patch comes out. They are the best weapons for a fury warrior besides the warglaives and they are extremely versatile and stat heavy with armor pen, crit, ap, a high damage range, a hefty amount of stam for fights like najentus, and even some resilience for the after-raid battlegrounding.
Whichever weapons you use, I would also suggest putting executioner on your mainhand. It's a great fury enchant according to every test I've read about.
Hmm what else.. you said you're threat capped at the beginning of the fight. You can honestly only do as much damage as your tank will let you You have to have a tank who is able to produce a huge amount of TPS for fights like teron. We use a misdirect rotation which allows me to pretty much go all out from the very beginning of the fight. My gear isn't as good as yours, but I do a lot more damage and this may be a factor. Also, it doesn't hurt to wait a good five seconds before you lay in just in case your tank gets a string of misses or parries. The 2.3 patch will also help you here with the 10% threat reduction, so you should see an improvement.
You also mentioned that you are getting dodged/parried a lot. Whenever a boss casts something on a raid member who is behind him he'll turn around for a split second. If by chance you use a bloodthirst during that split second you can definitely see some parries pop up. It's an unfortunate reality for melee dps. The only thing you can do is make absolutely sure that you stand behind the boss. Besides, a string if parries from your melee can easily get your tank killed, so this is an essential skill.
Last edited by tedbell : 11/19/07 at 9:34 AM.
|
Originally Posted by Murr0w
Executioner MH Mongoose OH seems to be the best combo since Executioner can't stack in the first place.
|
|
Originally Posted by Gaise
Can it overwrite itself though? If not, wouldn't it still be worth using 2 x Executioner for more reliable uptime of the buff?
|
First off, I'd like to apologize if this is a duplicate sounding post - if it is, I could not find it originally and this reply can be deleted.
I have read in many places of the "holy trinity" of warrior DPS stats being Strength, Crit and hit, with str>crit>hit, once hit is above 95. However, I have always been told that for dual wielding, it is a good idea to have hit rating above 180 so that there will be no issues of running out of rage.
First, a little background - currently, my guild is starting into SSc/TK - we have killed Lurker, Void Reaver and Solarian, and are starting to make further in-roads. What I am finding is that while I was at 180-200 hit for a while, everytime I upgrade a piece of equipment, my hit takes a hit (in a manner of speaking).
I am currently sitting in the 160's for hit, with 2 +8 hit gems. I have been recommended against gemming for hit, but I feel that if my hit were in the 150's, it may be too low.
In practice, what minimum value of hit should you be looking at when acting as melee dps for those two raid environments? Would I be okay in those boss situations with a hit rating in the 150's, so that I could re-gem the +hit gems, or am I better off keeping my hit above 180 with gear I have in the bank.
Thank you!
I have read in many places of the "holy trinity" of warrior DPS stats being Strength, Crit and hit, with str>crit>hit, once hit is above 95. However, I have always been told that for dual wielding, it is a good idea to have hit rating above 180 so that there will be no issues of running out of rage.
First, a little background - currently, my guild is starting into SSc/TK - we have killed Lurker, Void Reaver and Solarian, and are starting to make further in-roads. What I am finding is that while I was at 180-200 hit for a while, everytime I upgrade a piece of equipment, my hit takes a hit (in a manner of speaking).
I am currently sitting in the 160's for hit, with 2 +8 hit gems. I have been recommended against gemming for hit, but I feel that if my hit were in the 150's, it may be too low.
In practice, what minimum value of hit should you be looking at when acting as melee dps for those two raid environments? Would I be okay in those boss situations with a hit rating in the 150's, so that I could re-gem the +hit gems, or am I better off keeping my hit above 180 with gear I have in the bank.
Thank you!
There's no straight rule for hit, and anyone who says there is has to be a vapid dolt. The rule for hit is very simple. If you don't have enough rage to sustain a good rotation (BT/WW on constant CD, HS spamming your little heart out), more hit. If you can afford to screw with your hit some, str/crit is a whole lot better. But while str and crit go a way towards mitigating lost rage from misses, it's not quite the same.
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Originally Posted by Corden
First off, I'd like to apologize if this is a duplicate sounding post - if it is, I could not find it originally and this reply can be deleted.
I have read in many places of the "holy trinity" of warrior DPS stats being Strength, Crit and hit, with str>crit>hit, once hit is above 95. However, I have always been told that for dual wielding, it is a good idea to have hit rating above 180 so that there will be no issues of running out of rage. First, a little background - currently, my guild is starting into SSc/TK - we have killed Lurker, Void Reaver and Solarian, and are starting to make further in-roads. What I am finding is that while I was at 180-200 hit for a while, everytime I upgrade a piece of equipment, my hit takes a hit (in a manner of speaking). I am currently sitting in the 160's for hit, with 2 +8 hit gems. I have been recommended against gemming for hit, but I feel that if my hit were in the 150's, it may be too low. In practice, what minimum value of hit should you be looking at when acting as melee dps for those two raid environments? Would I be okay in those boss situations with a hit rating in the 150's, so that I could re-gem the +hit gems, or am I better off keeping my hit above 180 with gear I have in the bank. Thank you! |
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Originally Posted by Murr0w
There's no straight rule for hit, and anyone who says there is has to be a vapid dolt. The rule for hit is very simple. If you don't have enough rage to sustain a good rotation (BT/WW on constant CD, HS spamming your little heart out), more hit. If you can afford to screw with your hit some, str/crit is a whole lot better. But while str and crit go a way towards mitigating lost rage from misses, it's not quite the same.
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I agree more or less, however, I have no problems in my crap gear to sustain a 3BT/2WW cycle so I honestly doubt that anyone doing raid dps will have problems with that. HS spamming on each hit won't be possible until you get really good gear (and I honestly doubt it's feasible even then).
Hit doesn't magically give you more rage. If one point of hit rating gives you a 1% dps raise, your rage income will also go up by 1%. If 1 point of crit rating gives you 2% more damage, it will also give you 2% more rage. In general str/crit give a higher dps increase than crit (after reaching 9% anyway) thus also giving you better rage generation. The only thing that could possibly be an issue with low hit is that you might have more problems with miss streaks (and not getting enough rage to maintain the cycle), I've never had this problem, but then I've always liked fast weapons better anyway (even though they are not the optimum choice).
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Originally Posted by Gruntle
I agree more or less, however, I have no problems in my crap gear to sustain a 3BT/2WW cycle so I honestly doubt that anyone doing raid dps will have problems with that. HS spamming on each hit won't be possible until you get really good gear (and I honestly doubt it's feasible even then).
Hit doesn't magically give you more rage. If one point of hit rating gives you a 1% dps raise, your rage income will also go up by 1%. If 1 point of crit rating gives you 2% more damage, it will also give you 2% more rage. In general str/crit give a higher dps increase than crit (after reaching 9% anyway) thus also giving you better rage generation. The only thing that could possibly be an issue with low hit is that you might have more problems with miss streaks (and not getting enough rage to maintain the cycle), I've never had this problem, but then I've always liked fast weapons better anyway (even though they are not the optimum choice). |
Edited onPatch 2.3.0
I have just picked up a blade of infamy. i enchanted it with executioner. my previous MH weapon was the Rising Tide, which is now my Offhand. The rising tide currently has mongoose on it. I am wondering if i should put potency on it instead, or leave it with mongoose. Im at 34.5% crit raid buffed in zerk and i also have an enh shaman twisting grace of air/WF and a feral druid most of the time, so having enough crit isnt a problem 
thanks for your time
thanks for your time
Last edited by Geneticc : 11/19/07 at 12:49 PM.
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Originally Posted by Geneticc
I have just picked up a blade of infamy. i enchanted it with executioner. my previous MH weapon was the Rising Tide, which is now my Offhand. The rising tide currently has mongoose on it. I am wondering if i should put potency on it instead, or leave it with mongoose. Im at 34.5% crit raid buffed in zerk and i also have an enh shaman twisting grace of air/WF and a feral druid most of the time, so having enough crit isnt a problem
thanks for your time |
Well, Quixotic, how do you feel after this patch?Did your damage go up/down or stayed the same?
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Originally Posted by Murr0w
That's my point, with the trend towards slow/slow getting bigger (I've been using [Dragonstrike] + [Rod of the Sun King] since we killed Kael for DW) a miss hits you a lot harder than it does with a faster offhand. I'm still going to be using my [Fel Leather Boots] until I can get a gd pair of [Dreadboots of the Legion], dropping them for say a pair of [Warboots of Obliteration] would be stupid in the extreme as you're gaining maybe half a crit and losing around 2% hit.
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I think weapon speed is often overlooked as streaks of misses are not something that spreadsheets can show. You really need to get that feel for your rage generation, which is much smoother with a fast OH.
Edited onPatch 2.3.0
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Originally Posted by Murr0w
That's my point, with the trend towards slow/slow getting bigger (I've been using [Dragonstrike] + [Rod of the Sun King] since we killed Kael for DW) a miss hits you a lot harder than it does with a faster offhand. I'm still going to be using my [Fel Leather Boots] until I can get a gd pair of [Dreadboots of the Legion], dropping them for say a pair of [Warboots of Obliteration] would be stupid in the extreme as you're gaining maybe half a crit and losing around 2% hit.
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| Potency>Mongoose according to SS. |
Last edited by Graul : 11/19/07 at 2:56 PM.
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Originally Posted by dahakon
I'd like some input on my talent build and gear choices, and also the most efficient way to do DPS on raids. I have pretty good gear on paper, but I seem to be underperforming most of the time.
Here's a recent WWS from Teron: WWS Anyone see anything obvious I'm doing wrong? |
The second thing was the terribly unlucky crit rate of Bloodthirst, 12%. I myself had a night where it was 11%, and after that began gemming for more crit.
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Originally Posted by Danath
Potency>Mongoose according to SS.
Well, Quixotic, how do you feel after this patch?Did your damage go up/down or stayed the same? |
The spreadsheet changes every version. like graul said, its very annoying, lol. I guess i will just stick with Executioner/mongoose for now, until someone comes up with some numbers that shows potency being the better OH enchant. Or maybe they will just release a 25/30str weapon enchant in sunwell! wtb!
I specced dual wield fury for the first raid timer in 2.3 and the numbers were pretty much what I expected. My spec was Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft, my gear was my current armory profile (although I'm now PVP spec) which I'll try to maintain for a few hours, but basically an ideal bt/hyjal gear setup minus illidan's blindfold and warglaives.
Teron: WWS
Council: WWS
My previous bests were 1951 on Teron (WWS) and 1587 on Council (WWS), and since then I have received a couple of significant upgrades (dst and stormrage signet ring) so I would've expected to do higher than I did. I could adjust my spec a bit by taking imp whirlwind instead of imp execute and get a slower offhand, but even with generous theoretical dps additions from those changes the lack of deathwish is noticeable. I'm confident that I can manage around 1830 dps on teron as MS spec having done 1812 (WWS) before 2.3 and with the dps boost from the weapon mastery change. So, unless I messed up big time in my spec or dps rotation, or got very unlucky, there seems to be pretty much no reason to go dw fury over ms spec as the first or only dps spec warrior in a given raid.
Teron: WWS
Council: WWS
My previous bests were 1951 on Teron (WWS) and 1587 on Council (WWS), and since then I have received a couple of significant upgrades (dst and stormrage signet ring) so I would've expected to do higher than I did. I could adjust my spec a bit by taking imp whirlwind instead of imp execute and get a slower offhand, but even with generous theoretical dps additions from those changes the lack of deathwish is noticeable. I'm confident that I can manage around 1830 dps on teron as MS spec having done 1812 (WWS) before 2.3 and with the dps boost from the weapon mastery change. So, unless I messed up big time in my spec or dps rotation, or got very unlucky, there seems to be pretty much no reason to go dw fury over ms spec as the first or only dps spec warrior in a given raid.
I've had the same experience concerning fury vs arms. I respecced to arms when our other DPS warrior refused to do it and I wanted Blood Frenzy in the raid. Basically I do around 100 DPS less but Blood Frenzy takes care of that and then some. And I'm using Stormherald, so whenever I manage to grab a 2h sword, S3 at the latest, the DPS should go up quite a bit.
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Originally Posted by Modrack
I specced dual wield fury for the first raid timer in 2.3 and the numbers were pretty much what I expected. My spec was Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft, my gear was my current armory profile (although I'm now PVP spec) which I'll try to maintain for a few hours, but basically an ideal bt/hyjal gear setup minus illidan's blindfold and warglaives.
Teron: WWS Council: WWS My previous bests were 1951 on Teron (WWS) and 1587 on Council (WWS), and since then I have received a couple of significant upgrades (dst and stormrage signet ring) so I would've expected to do higher than I did. I could adjust my spec a bit by taking imp whirlwind instead of imp execute and get a slower offhand, but even with generous theoretical dps additions from those changes the lack of deathwish is noticeable. I'm confident that I can manage around 1830 dps on teron as MS spec having done 1812 (WWS) before 2.3 and with the dps boost from the weapon mastery change. So, unless I messed up big time in my spec or dps rotation, or got very unlucky, there seems to be pretty much no reason to go dw fury over ms spec as the first or only dps spec warrior in a given raid. |
).Anyway, 1/2 Imp WW is quite important to make the dps cycles work, it let's you do the cycle with less cd collisions (you will still get some, latency is never 0). With a 9 sec cd on WW the theoretical number of WW's is 22, i.e. a 15% increase. Translating that into a 15% increase in WW damage for you would mean about 20 dps. Not sure how this compares with having 1/2 instead of 2/2 in imp exec. It could also possible make it easier to get more BT/WW's off in the first place.
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Originally Posted by Danath
Potency>Mongoose according to SS.
Well, Quixotic, how do you feel after this patch?Did your damage go up/down or stayed the same? |
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Originally Posted by Gruntle
vultur, with a 2h build crit can actually be worth more output dps than AP for some levels of gear. With sub 30% crit you may have problems keeping flurry up (even with a 2h weapon, which otherwise need way less crit than DW to keep flurry up). I would value 1 crit rating to be worth something like 2.2 AP (i.e. 1 crit rating = 1.1 str, neglecting BoK).
Also, Slam is an incredibly powerful ability if correctly used, asfaik the best possible dps for a slam-2h build is to make a cycle like (with Slam always triggered immediately after the white attack): Autoattack-Slam-MS Autoattack-Slam-WW Autoattack-Slam-MS Autoattack-Slam-(Hamstring if you have Sword spec or Battleshout or just save rage) If you don't get enough rage to maintain this, skip WW and do it whenever you have the rage and MS is on cd. |
Thanks
I usually dont have rage to keep a rotation like this. Sometimes even skipping WW I still lack rage. But, ok, i'm not in the wrong direction
I suggest using an attack timer add on, such as this one, helps a lot with the slam rotation. You shoud be seeing the numbers pop up virtually at the same time. If you start the slam 0.5-0.8s after a white hit you'll find yourself doing massive damage. Don't HS unless you're up to your neck in rage.
Do you have windfury? You should be able to keep this rotation up at the least.
Question about peoples opinions on the human racial when wielding a sword and a mace.
Is this likely to get changed in the near future or is this an unexpected bonus? I have the points for two 1hands but would gladly take a mace instead even if it doesn't look quite as good as two swords on my character.
Is this likely to get changed in the near future or is this an unexpected bonus? I have the points for two 1hands but would gladly take a mace instead even if it doesn't look quite as good as two swords on my character.
Well there's no way of knowing if it will be changed, but I would guess it will as it is obviously a bug. The other thing is it might just be a display issue and the expertise applies only once to each weapon type.
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Originally Posted by warriorn1
Question about peoples opinions on the human racial when wielding a sword and a mace.
Is this likely to get changed in the near future or is this an unexpected bonus? I have the points for two 1hands but would gladly take a mace instead even if it doesn't look quite as good as two swords on my character. |
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Originally Posted by Emeraude
Hey Quixotic, when I was oggling over your gear and such on the Armory I noticed you had a preference for +10 Crit gems, giving you something like 35% Crit I assume in zerker stance.
I was curious why you opted for pure 10 Crit over the hybrid gem 5str/5crit? |
Edited onPatch 2.3.0
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Originally Posted by dahakon
I'd like some input on my talent build and gear choices, and also the most efficient way to do DPS on raids. I have pretty good gear on paper, but I seem to be underperforming most of the time.
Here's a recent WWS from Teron: WWS That's obviously prepatch, and I seem to be missing a lot, but I seem to remember Teron dodging/parrying a lot even from behind. I usually am threat capped in the beginning minutes of a fight, but then fall off, so I guess I'm not being as efficient as I could be. My gear is in the armory profile, I got [Grips of Silent Justice] and [Dreadboots of the Legion], and I gemmed them 8str+8str on the gloves and +10hit +10 crit on the boots. These are not in the profile since I quit with alt-f4 last night.. I usually use my rage as follows: BT when up WW when up If BT and WW are up, first BT, then WW. If rage > 45, HS. At 20%, swap offhand to mainhand, and start executing until dead. Anyone see anything obvious I'm doing wrong? |
You should change your meta to the relentless earthstorm diamond as quioxtic mentioned above and in order to meet the meta requirement for it you'll need to regem a couple of your pieces. Check out the sockets on your red belt of battle, the socket bonus is nice, eh? So in order to meet the meta requirement you'll need to throw in a green or purple gem into the blue slot. Also, check out your bracers. They also have a very nice socket bonus of 2 strength. Go ahead and throw a green or blue into that piece too. Not only will you lose very little in terms of raw stats, you'll gain access to the best dps meta in the game. Trust me, it is very much worth it.
As far as your dreadboots go, that's a good start but I wouldn't worry about putting hit gems into a yellow socket. Just toss two +10 crit ones in and you'll do much better. Hit is a devalued stat when you have as much as you do right now. You're going to gain a better increase in damage if you shoot for stats like armor pen, crit, and strength.
Which brings me to my next point. Get more armor pen!! It is an absolutely beautiful fury warrior stat and you should look for it wherever you can fit some in. I use the badge reward bracers for example. They do not have crit on them, but I noticed that you run with a feral druid in your group, so a slight loss of crit will not be an issue at all. Look for a couple pieces of gear that are heavy on armor pen and not so much on crit (hyjal trash neck is another one).
Also, grab a season 3 1hander or two when the patch comes out. They are the best weapons for a fury warrior besides the warglaives and they are extremely versatile and stat heavy with armor pen, crit, ap, a high damage range, a hefty amount of stam for fights like najentus, and even some resilience for the after-raid battlegrounding.
Whichever weapons you use, I would also suggest putting executioner on your mainhand. It's a great fury enchant according to every test I've read about.
Hmm what else.. you said you're threat capped at the beginning of the fight. You can honestly only do as much damage as your tank will let you You have to have a tank who is able to produce a huge amount of TPS for fights like teron. We use a misdirect rotation which allows me to pretty much go all out from the very beginning of the fight. My gear isn't as good as yours, but I do a lot more damage and this may be a factor. Also, it doesn't hurt to wait a good five seconds before you lay in just in case your tank gets a string of misses or parries. The 2.3 patch will also help you here with the 10% threat reduction, so you should see an improvement.
You also mentioned that you are getting dodged/parried a lot. Whenever a boss casts something on a raid member who is behind him he'll turn around for a split second. If by chance you use a bloodthirst during that split second you can definitely see some parries pop up. It's an unfortunate reality for melee dps. The only thing you can do is make absolutely sure that you stand behind the boss. Besides, a string if parries from your melee can easily get your tank killed, so this is an essential skill.
Last edited by tedbell : 11/19/07 at 9:34 AM.
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Originally Posted by Murr0w
Executioner MH Mongoose OH seems to be the best combo since Executioner can't stack in the first place.
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Originally Posted by Gaise
Can it overwrite itself though? If not, wouldn't it still be worth using 2 x Executioner for more reliable uptime of the buff?
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First off, I'd like to apologize if this is a duplicate sounding post - if it is, I could not find it originally and this reply can be deleted.
I have read in many places of the "holy trinity" of warrior DPS stats being Strength, Crit and hit, with str>crit>hit, once hit is above 95. However, I have always been told that for dual wielding, it is a good idea to have hit rating above 180 so that there will be no issues of running out of rage.
First, a little background - currently, my guild is starting into SSc/TK - we have killed Lurker, Void Reaver and Solarian, and are starting to make further in-roads. What I am finding is that while I was at 180-200 hit for a while, everytime I upgrade a piece of equipment, my hit takes a hit (in a manner of speaking).
I am currently sitting in the 160's for hit, with 2 +8 hit gems. I have been recommended against gemming for hit, but I feel that if my hit were in the 150's, it may be too low.
In practice, what minimum value of hit should you be looking at when acting as melee dps for those two raid environments? Would I be okay in those boss situations with a hit rating in the 150's, so that I could re-gem the +hit gems, or am I better off keeping my hit above 180 with gear I have in the bank.
Thank you!
I have read in many places of the "holy trinity" of warrior DPS stats being Strength, Crit and hit, with str>crit>hit, once hit is above 95. However, I have always been told that for dual wielding, it is a good idea to have hit rating above 180 so that there will be no issues of running out of rage.
First, a little background - currently, my guild is starting into SSc/TK - we have killed Lurker, Void Reaver and Solarian, and are starting to make further in-roads. What I am finding is that while I was at 180-200 hit for a while, everytime I upgrade a piece of equipment, my hit takes a hit (in a manner of speaking).
I am currently sitting in the 160's for hit, with 2 +8 hit gems. I have been recommended against gemming for hit, but I feel that if my hit were in the 150's, it may be too low.
In practice, what minimum value of hit should you be looking at when acting as melee dps for those two raid environments? Would I be okay in those boss situations with a hit rating in the 150's, so that I could re-gem the +hit gems, or am I better off keeping my hit above 180 with gear I have in the bank.
Thank you!
There's no straight rule for hit, and anyone who says there is has to be a vapid dolt. The rule for hit is very simple. If you don't have enough rage to sustain a good rotation (BT/WW on constant CD, HS spamming your little heart out), more hit. If you can afford to screw with your hit some, str/crit is a whole lot better. But while str and crit go a way towards mitigating lost rage from misses, it's not quite the same.
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Originally Posted by Corden
First off, I'd like to apologize if this is a duplicate sounding post - if it is, I could not find it originally and this reply can be deleted.
I have read in many places of the "holy trinity" of warrior DPS stats being Strength, Crit and hit, with str>crit>hit, once hit is above 95. However, I have always been told that for dual wielding, it is a good idea to have hit rating above 180 so that there will be no issues of running out of rage. First, a little background - currently, my guild is starting into SSc/TK - we have killed Lurker, Void Reaver and Solarian, and are starting to make further in-roads. What I am finding is that while I was at 180-200 hit for a while, everytime I upgrade a piece of equipment, my hit takes a hit (in a manner of speaking). I am currently sitting in the 160's for hit, with 2 +8 hit gems. I have been recommended against gemming for hit, but I feel that if my hit were in the 150's, it may be too low. In practice, what minimum value of hit should you be looking at when acting as melee dps for those two raid environments? Would I be okay in those boss situations with a hit rating in the 150's, so that I could re-gem the +hit gems, or am I better off keeping my hit above 180 with gear I have in the bank. Thank you! |
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Originally Posted by Murr0w
There's no straight rule for hit, and anyone who says there is has to be a vapid dolt. The rule for hit is very simple. If you don't have enough rage to sustain a good rotation (BT/WW on constant CD, HS spamming your little heart out), more hit. If you can afford to screw with your hit some, str/crit is a whole lot better. But while str and crit go a way towards mitigating lost rage from misses, it's not quite the same.
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I agree more or less, however, I have no problems in my crap gear to sustain a 3BT/2WW cycle so I honestly doubt that anyone doing raid dps will have problems with that. HS spamming on each hit won't be possible until you get really good gear (and I honestly doubt it's feasible even then).
Hit doesn't magically give you more rage. If one point of hit rating gives you a 1% dps raise, your rage income will also go up by 1%. If 1 point of crit rating gives you 2% more damage, it will also give you 2% more rage. In general str/crit give a higher dps increase than crit (after reaching 9% anyway) thus also giving you better rage generation. The only thing that could possibly be an issue with low hit is that you might have more problems with miss streaks (and not getting enough rage to maintain the cycle), I've never had this problem, but then I've always liked fast weapons better anyway (even though they are not the optimum choice).
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Originally Posted by Gruntle
I agree more or less, however, I have no problems in my crap gear to sustain a 3BT/2WW cycle so I honestly doubt that anyone doing raid dps will have problems with that. HS spamming on each hit won't be possible until you get really good gear (and I honestly doubt it's feasible even then).
Hit doesn't magically give you more rage. If one point of hit rating gives you a 1% dps raise, your rage income will also go up by 1%. If 1 point of crit rating gives you 2% more damage, it will also give you 2% more rage. In general str/crit give a higher dps increase than crit (after reaching 9% anyway) thus also giving you better rage generation. The only thing that could possibly be an issue with low hit is that you might have more problems with miss streaks (and not getting enough rage to maintain the cycle), I've never had this problem, but then I've always liked fast weapons better anyway (even though they are not the optimum choice). |
Edited onPatch 2.3.0
I have just picked up a blade of infamy. i enchanted it with executioner. my previous MH weapon was the Rising Tide, which is now my Offhand. The rising tide currently has mongoose on it. I am wondering if i should put potency on it instead, or leave it with mongoose. Im at 34.5% crit raid buffed in zerk and i also have an enh shaman twisting grace of air/WF and a feral druid most of the time, so having enough crit isnt a problem
thanks for your time
thanks for your time
Last edited by Geneticc : 11/19/07 at 12:49 PM.
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Originally Posted by Geneticc
I have just picked up a blade of infamy. i enchanted it with executioner. my previous MH weapon was the Rising Tide, which is now my Offhand. The rising tide currently has mongoose on it. I am wondering if i should put potency on it instead, or leave it with mongoose. Im at 34.5% crit raid buffed in zerk and i also have an enh shaman twisting grace of air/WF and a feral druid most of the time, so having enough crit isnt a problem
thanks for your time |
Well, Quixotic, how do you feel after this patch?Did your damage go up/down or stayed the same?
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Originally Posted by Murr0w
That's my point, with the trend towards slow/slow getting bigger (I've been using [Dragonstrike] + [Rod of the Sun King] since we killed Kael for DW) a miss hits you a lot harder than it does with a faster offhand. I'm still going to be using my [Fel Leather Boots] until I can get a gd pair of [Dreadboots of the Legion], dropping them for say a pair of [Warboots of Obliteration] would be stupid in the extreme as you're gaining maybe half a crit and losing around 2% hit.
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I think weapon speed is often overlooked as streaks of misses are not something that spreadsheets can show. You really need to get that feel for your rage generation, which is much smoother with a fast OH.
Edited onPatch 2.3.0
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Originally Posted by Murr0w
That's my point, with the trend towards slow/slow getting bigger (I've been using [Dragonstrike] + [Rod of the Sun King] since we killed Kael for DW) a miss hits you a lot harder than it does with a faster offhand. I'm still going to be using my [Fel Leather Boots] until I can get a gd pair of [Dreadboots of the Legion], dropping them for say a pair of [Warboots of Obliteration] would be stupid in the extreme as you're gaining maybe half a crit and losing around 2% hit.
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| Potency>Mongoose according to SS. |
Last edited by Graul : 11/19/07 at 2:56 PM.
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Originally Posted by dahakon
I'd like some input on my talent build and gear choices, and also the most efficient way to do DPS on raids. I have pretty good gear on paper, but I seem to be underperforming most of the time.
Here's a recent WWS from Teron: WWS Anyone see anything obvious I'm doing wrong? |
The second thing was the terribly unlucky crit rate of Bloodthirst, 12%. I myself had a night where it was 11%, and after that began gemming for more crit.
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Originally Posted by Danath
Potency>Mongoose according to SS.
Well, Quixotic, how do you feel after this patch?Did your damage go up/down or stayed the same? |
The spreadsheet changes every version. like graul said, its very annoying, lol. I guess i will just stick with Executioner/mongoose for now, until someone comes up with some numbers that shows potency being the better OH enchant. Or maybe they will just release a 25/30str weapon enchant in sunwell! wtb!
I specced dual wield fury for the first raid timer in 2.3 and the numbers were pretty much what I expected. My spec was Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft, my gear was my current armory profile (although I'm now PVP spec) which I'll try to maintain for a few hours, but basically an ideal bt/hyjal gear setup minus illidan's blindfold and warglaives.
Teron: WWS
Council: WWS
My previous bests were 1951 on Teron (WWS) and 1587 on Council (WWS), and since then I have received a couple of significant upgrades (dst and stormrage signet ring) so I would've expected to do higher than I did. I could adjust my spec a bit by taking imp whirlwind instead of imp execute and get a slower offhand, but even with generous theoretical dps additions from those changes the lack of deathwish is noticeable. I'm confident that I can manage around 1830 dps on teron as MS spec having done 1812 (WWS) before 2.3 and with the dps boost from the weapon mastery change. So, unless I messed up big time in my spec or dps rotation, or got very unlucky, there seems to be pretty much no reason to go dw fury over ms spec as the first or only dps spec warrior in a given raid.
Teron: WWS
Council: WWS
My previous bests were 1951 on Teron (WWS) and 1587 on Council (WWS), and since then I have received a couple of significant upgrades (dst and stormrage signet ring) so I would've expected to do higher than I did. I could adjust my spec a bit by taking imp whirlwind instead of imp execute and get a slower offhand, but even with generous theoretical dps additions from those changes the lack of deathwish is noticeable. I'm confident that I can manage around 1830 dps on teron as MS spec having done 1812 (WWS) before 2.3 and with the dps boost from the weapon mastery change. So, unless I messed up big time in my spec or dps rotation, or got very unlucky, there seems to be pretty much no reason to go dw fury over ms spec as the first or only dps spec warrior in a given raid.
I've had the same experience concerning fury vs arms. I respecced to arms when our other DPS warrior refused to do it and I wanted Blood Frenzy in the raid. Basically I do around 100 DPS less but Blood Frenzy takes care of that and then some. And I'm using Stormherald, so whenever I manage to grab a 2h sword, S3 at the latest, the DPS should go up quite a bit.
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Originally Posted by Modrack
I specced dual wield fury for the first raid timer in 2.3 and the numbers were pretty much what I expected. My spec was Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft, my gear was my current armory profile (although I'm now PVP spec) which I'll try to maintain for a few hours, but basically an ideal bt/hyjal gear setup minus illidan's blindfold and warglaives.
Teron: WWS Council: WWS My previous bests were 1951 on Teron (WWS) and 1587 on Council (WWS), and since then I have received a couple of significant upgrades (dst and stormrage signet ring) so I would've expected to do higher than I did. I could adjust my spec a bit by taking imp whirlwind instead of imp execute and get a slower offhand, but even with generous theoretical dps additions from those changes the lack of deathwish is noticeable. I'm confident that I can manage around 1830 dps on teron as MS spec having done 1812 (WWS) before 2.3 and with the dps boost from the weapon mastery change. So, unless I messed up big time in my spec or dps rotation, or got very unlucky, there seems to be pretty much no reason to go dw fury over ms spec as the first or only dps spec warrior in a given raid. |
).Anyway, 1/2 Imp WW is quite important to make the dps cycles work, it let's you do the cycle with less cd collisions (you will still get some, latency is never 0). With a 9 sec cd on WW the theoretical number of WW's is 22, i.e. a 15% increase. Translating that into a 15% increase in WW damage for you would mean about 20 dps. Not sure how this compares with having 1/2 instead of 2/2 in imp exec. It could also possible make it easier to get more BT/WW's off in the first place.
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Originally Posted by Danath
Potency>Mongoose according to SS.
Well, Quixotic, how do you feel after this patch?Did your damage go up/down or stayed the same? |
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Originally Posted by Gruntle
vultur, with a 2h build crit can actually be worth more output dps than AP for some levels of gear. With sub 30% crit you may have problems keeping flurry up (even with a 2h weapon, which otherwise need way less crit than DW to keep flurry up). I would value 1 crit rating to be worth something like 2.2 AP (i.e. 1 crit rating = 1.1 str, neglecting BoK).
Also, Slam is an incredibly powerful ability if correctly used, asfaik the best possible dps for a slam-2h build is to make a cycle like (with Slam always triggered immediately after the white attack): Autoattack-Slam-MS Autoattack-Slam-WW Autoattack-Slam-MS Autoattack-Slam-(Hamstring if you have Sword spec or Battleshout or just save rage) If you don't get enough rage to maintain this, skip WW and do it whenever you have the rage and MS is on cd. |
Thanks
I usually dont have rage to keep a rotation like this. Sometimes even skipping WW I still lack rage. But, ok, i'm not in the wrong direction
I suggest using an attack timer add on, such as this one, helps a lot with the slam rotation. You shoud be seeing the numbers pop up virtually at the same time. If you start the slam 0.5-0.8s after a white hit you'll find yourself doing massive damage. Don't HS unless you're up to your neck in rage.
Do you have windfury? You should be able to keep this rotation up at the least.
Question about peoples opinions on the human racial when wielding a sword and a mace.
Is this likely to get changed in the near future or is this an unexpected bonus? I have the points for two 1hands but would gladly take a mace instead even if it doesn't look quite as good as two swords on my character.
Is this likely to get changed in the near future or is this an unexpected bonus? I have the points for two 1hands but would gladly take a mace instead even if it doesn't look quite as good as two swords on my character.
Well there's no way of knowing if it will be changed, but I would guess it will as it is obviously a bug. The other thing is it might just be a display issue and the expertise applies only once to each weapon type.
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Originally Posted by warriorn1
Question about peoples opinions on the human racial when wielding a sword and a mace.
Is this likely to get changed in the near future or is this an unexpected bonus? I have the points for two 1hands but would gladly take a mace instead even if it doesn't look quite as good as two swords on my character. |
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Originally Posted by Tkon
Do you have windfury? You should be able to keep this rotation up at the least.
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Originally Posted by Typhon
That's the crux of the matter. Without windfury I find its quite hard to keep a consistent attack cycle going, especially if you're also the one keeping TC/DS etc up.
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I'm curious as to which chest armor a lot of the endgame warriors are using. Heartshatter Breastplate is obviously very good, but given the choice between that and Tier 6 or Armorsmithing Tier 3, which would you ideally prefer? No doubt the 3 sockets on the T6 and the Bulwark are valuable, but seeing as the T6 sockets are yellow/blue/blue, I question its usefulness.
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Originally Posted by hawkk
I'm curious as to which chest armor a lot of the endgame warriors are using. Heartshatter Breastplate is obviously very good, but given the choice between that and Tier 6 or Armorsmithing Tier 3, which would you ideally prefer? No doubt the 3 sockets on the T6 and the Bulwark are valuable, but seeing as the T6 sockets are yellow/blue/blue, I question its usefulness.
|
Socket colors only matter for the socket bonus and most of those bonus aren't worth chasing. Ignore the socket colors and judge the item as if you stuffed 3 red gems into it.
I'm having a dilemma of sorts. My current set of gear has decent AP and crit but terrible hit. I don't miss many BT or WW cooldowns but maybe I'm missing more than I realize. My DPS is okay (considering I never get an optimal group) but I'm thinking my hit rating is hurting me. I have some pieces I can switch out that put me at 1990 AP, 190 hit and 31.5% crit with about 1k less health but the big contributor is the Fel Leather Boots and it's hard for me to use them over the Warboots of Obliteration. Would you choose the stats from my current gear, the stats I listed or a mix of the two? Thanks for the help.
You could do a few things. Maybe get the heroic badge neck. Bracers of Eradication are very good and maybe a cloak with +hit.
You shouldn't need to add too much with your gear.
OH, and the new heroic badge gear also has +hit on them.
You shouldn't need to add too much with your gear.
OH, and the new heroic badge gear also has +hit on them.
Edited onPatch 2.3.0
I don't know if its answered yet, but I've got a question.
The old Orc Racial weapon skill was counted seperate for each Hand.
You could see this in your Char screen.
How ist it with the new racial? The Char screen doesn't show seperated values.
And also the Humans Racial with Sword and Mace is possibly bugged whith this 10 expertise instead of 5, I wonder if it counts for both hands.
The old Orc Racial weapon skill was counted seperate for each Hand.
You could see this in your Char screen.
How ist it with the new racial? The Char screen doesn't show seperated values.
And also the Humans Racial with Sword and Mace is possibly bugged whith this 10 expertise instead of 5, I wonder if it counts for both hands.
Last edited by kyote : 11/21/07 at 3:52 AM.
For all the talk of racials recently, especially humans with sword and mace, has anyone confirmed that its not just a display issue? The character screen has shown things incorrectly before, only taking certain things into account but not others.
Well, that's not really easy to test. I guess the simplest way would be to make tests on dodge in the similar way as the tests on misses and weapon skill were done before 2.3. The problem is that we don't know the exact figure for base dodge (most people claim it's 5.6, but I haven't seen any really good tests of this). If we can assume a 5.6% base dodge, then you need to get enough Expertise minus the expertise from the racial (10 or 5) to cap this. Look at the logs and see if you have any dodges => constraints on the racial.
I have no real facts, I'm just speaking from my experience in the last raids and some data in WWS.
When dual-wielding Mace + Sword instead of Mace + Mace, I got less dodges in WWS. Last night at Solarian I even had not 1 single Dodge at the mobs spawning from Solarian. This makes sense, when 10 Expertise + Weapon Mastery gives -4,5% Dodge, the trash mobs, Solarian spawns, couldn't dodge (I even made quite much use of whirlwind/cleave/sweeping strikes, so I had many attacks on the mobs), due to 5% basechance to dodge, -4,5% would be 0,50% dodge. Just some thoughts, no facts.
Wow Web Stats
When dual-wielding Mace + Sword instead of Mace + Mace, I got less dodges in WWS. Last night at Solarian I even had not 1 single Dodge at the mobs spawning from Solarian. This makes sense, when 10 Expertise + Weapon Mastery gives -4,5% Dodge, the trash mobs, Solarian spawns, couldn't dodge (I even made quite much use of whirlwind/cleave/sweeping strikes, so I had many attacks on the mobs), due to 5% basechance to dodge, -4,5% would be 0,50% dodge. Just some thoughts, no facts.
Wow Web Stats
I'm going to agree with Kaan. Using a sword/mace combo I had the following results in Hyjal/BT:
Melee attacks landed: 4575
Dodged attacks: 110
Parried attacks: 51
I've seen similar results since the patch and I'd feel pretty confidant saying 10 expertise is applied globally.
Melee attacks landed: 4575
Dodged attacks: 110
Parried attacks: 51
I've seen similar results since the patch and I'd feel pretty confidant saying 10 expertise is applied globally.
Well based on your numbers:
that's 2.3%.
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Originally Posted by hawkk
Melee attacks landed: 4575
Dodged attacks: 110 Parried attacks: 51 |
WoW Web Stats
Here's the WWS link. I think I misread the number of attacks. WWS calculated dodges at 1%, but yeah, what I posted is obviously not 1%.
Here's the WWS link. I think I misread the number of attacks. WWS calculated dodges at 1%, but yeah, what I posted is obviously not 1%.
Edited onPatch 2.3.0
I'll get a WWS for confirmation asap (hopefully tonight), but from glancing over Recount, with 10 expertise from racials, 5 from a [Shapeshifter's Signet], and -2% dodge from Weapon Mastery, I *only* saw dodges on fights with lvl 73 mobs, with a full VR fight getting 6 dodges and a full Solarian getting 1. This is in agreement with an assumed -5.75% to dodge.
Last edited by Kolmar : 11/21/07 at 4:53 PM. Reason: added sum of -dodge, item link
According to the 2.3.2 Patch Notes, Defiance's Weapon Expertise bonus(+6) now applies to all stances.
So with the expertise from Defiance confirmed to be active in all stances, would it be viable to pick this up rather than go for the usual Impale?
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Originally Posted by Melkoran
So with the expertise from Defiance confirmed to be active in all stances, would it be viable to pick this up rather than go for the usual Impale?
|
Aye, didn't think is was worth losing the 20% critical bonus, Thought this does bring up another question of mine which I've had a dilemma with...
...In my current Fury spec, I have to choose between Improved Execute or the 2% reduced dodge where improved intercept used to be. I'm leaning towards the execute, but I'm not sure if the overall DPS upgrade from the dodge would outweigh the last 20% from the greater execute damage.
...In my current Fury spec, I have to choose between Improved Execute or the 2% reduced dodge where improved intercept used to be. I'm leaning towards the execute, but I'm not sure if the overall DPS upgrade from the dodge would outweigh the last 20% from the greater execute damage.
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Originally Posted by Melkoran
Aye, didn't think is was worth losing the 20% critical bonus, Thought this does bring up another question of mine which I've had a dilemma with...
...In my current Fury spec, I have to choose between Improved Execute or the 2% reduced dodge where improved intercept used to be. I'm leaning towards the execute, but I'm not sure if the overall DPS upgrade from the dodge would outweigh the last 20% from the greater execute damage. |
Your options are Imp Execute or Precision for the 2 points.
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Originally Posted by hawkk
WoW Web Stats
Here's the WWS link. I think I misread the number of attacks. WWS calculated dodges at 1%, but yeah, what I posted is obviously not 1%. |
As Tauren (the Spreadsheet says) it would boost my Damage, but not as Orc, if the racial doesn#t count for it.
Edited onPatch 2.3.0
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Originally Posted by Melkoran
So with the expertise from Defiance confirmed to be active in all stances, would it be viable to pick this up rather than go for the usual Impale?
|
According to the spreadsheet with my current gear,
2/2 Impale + 3.6% dodge on targets gives me 1095dps (current 17/44/0)
0/2 Impale + 2.1% dodge (ie 6 expertise) gives me 1119dps (5/41/15)
As I don't know how to change expertise in the spreadsheet, I just replaced the numbers in "buffed dps" tab. I'm not sure if it doesn't erase formulas or so
Last edited by Ondskapt : 11/22/07 at 7:23 AM. Reason: add templates
Armory:
The World of Warcraft Armory
Got a good deal of armor pen gear over the week. Went from 0 armor pen to around 450. Other changes were that I decided to use a fast offhand [Claw of the Phoenix] rather than the 2.6 speed [Netherbane]. Also, I had a rogue in my group who popped drums of battle.
I find the results interesting. First of all, I had a lower crit rate than before which I had anticipated would lead to average results but it really didn't seem to matter. Also, it seems that with 1.5 speed offhand I did 7% of my overall damage from whirlwind whereas with a slow offhand it was just 9%. I'm undecided about which season 3 offhand to buy, slow or fast. Any thoughts?
Last week's WWS:
1520 DPS sustained
Gerbell - WWS
This week's WWS:
1732 DPS sustained
Gerbell - WWS
The World of Warcraft Armory
Got a good deal of armor pen gear over the week. Went from 0 armor pen to around 450. Other changes were that I decided to use a fast offhand [Claw of the Phoenix] rather than the 2.6 speed [Netherbane]. Also, I had a rogue in my group who popped drums of battle.
I find the results interesting. First of all, I had a lower crit rate than before which I had anticipated would lead to average results but it really didn't seem to matter. Also, it seems that with 1.5 speed offhand I did 7% of my overall damage from whirlwind whereas with a slow offhand it was just 9%. I'm undecided about which season 3 offhand to buy, slow or fast. Any thoughts?
Last week's WWS:
1520 DPS sustained
Gerbell - WWS
This week's WWS:
1732 DPS sustained
Gerbell - WWS
|
Originally Posted by Ondskapt
I had the same idea.
According to the spreadsheet with my current gear, 2/2 Impale + 3.6% dodge on targets gives me 1095dps (current 17/44/0) 0/2 Impale + 2.1% dodge (ie 6 expertise) gives me 1119dps (5/41/15) As I don't know how to change expertise in the spreadsheet, I just replaced the numbers in "buffed dps" tab. I'm not sure if it doesn't erase formulas or so |
It may be good enough to consider though, a very nice build for 5-man tanking as well as added survivability in both PvE and PvP. Having TM should be quite nice as well for PvP. I would go 3/44/14 though.
I just specced 3/44/14 and will try this tonight. However, the 6 expertise only become active when I switch to defensive stance - 10 in berserk --> 16 in defensive. (This -might- be a display issue - I will test this tonight, currently, I'm sitting at -5.75% dodge - so there shouldn't be any more dodges).
I know I will have roughly 20-30 dps less than before, but I do gain last stand, 1000 armor and tactical mastery. Also I bought imp. Bloodrage, which is not as good as anger management though.
I defintitely like the added survivability from last stand. Think of the following encounters:
Winterchill
Azgalor
Archimonde
------------
Naj'entus
RoS (Phase III)
Shahraz (a free 3000 health pot for FA)
Council (those unlucky blizzard + venom + X moments)
I know I will have roughly 20-30 dps less than before, but I do gain last stand, 1000 armor and tactical mastery. Also I bought imp. Bloodrage, which is not as good as anger management though.
I defintitely like the added survivability from last stand. Think of the following encounters:
Winterchill
Azgalor
Archimonde
------------
Naj'entus
RoS (Phase III)
Shahraz (a free 3000 health pot for FA)
Council (those unlucky blizzard + venom + X moments)
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Originally Posted by Bronwyn
I just specced 3/44/14 and will try this tonight. However, the 6 expertise only become active when I switch to defensive stance - 10 in berserk --> 16 in defensive. (This -might- be a display issue - I will test this tonight, currently, I'm sitting at -5.75% dodge - so there shouldn't be any more dodges).
|
|
Originally Posted by Tkon
Do you have windfury? You should be able to keep this rotation up at the least.
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|
Originally Posted by Typhon
That's the crux of the matter. Without windfury I find its quite hard to keep a consistent attack cycle going, especially if you're also the one keeping TC/DS etc up.
|
I'm curious as to which chest armor a lot of the endgame warriors are using. Heartshatter Breastplate is obviously very good, but given the choice between that and Tier 6 or Armorsmithing Tier 3, which would you ideally prefer? No doubt the 3 sockets on the T6 and the Bulwark are valuable, but seeing as the T6 sockets are yellow/blue/blue, I question its usefulness.
|
Originally Posted by hawkk
I'm curious as to which chest armor a lot of the endgame warriors are using. Heartshatter Breastplate is obviously very good, but given the choice between that and Tier 6 or Armorsmithing Tier 3, which would you ideally prefer? No doubt the 3 sockets on the T6 and the Bulwark are valuable, but seeing as the T6 sockets are yellow/blue/blue, I question its usefulness.
|
Socket colors only matter for the socket bonus and most of those bonus aren't worth chasing. Ignore the socket colors and judge the item as if you stuffed 3 red gems into it.
I'm having a dilemma of sorts. My current set of gear has decent AP and crit but terrible hit. I don't miss many BT or WW cooldowns but maybe I'm missing more than I realize. My DPS is okay (considering I never get an optimal group) but I'm thinking my hit rating is hurting me. I have some pieces I can switch out that put me at 1990 AP, 190 hit and 31.5% crit with about 1k less health but the big contributor is the Fel Leather Boots and it's hard for me to use them over the Warboots of Obliteration. Would you choose the stats from my current gear, the stats I listed or a mix of the two? Thanks for the help.
You could do a few things. Maybe get the heroic badge neck. Bracers of Eradication are very good and maybe a cloak with +hit.
You shouldn't need to add too much with your gear.
OH, and the new heroic badge gear also has +hit on them.
You shouldn't need to add too much with your gear.
OH, and the new heroic badge gear also has +hit on them.
Edited onPatch 2.3.0
I don't know if its answered yet, but I've got a question.
The old Orc Racial weapon skill was counted seperate for each Hand.
You could see this in your Char screen.
How ist it with the new racial? The Char screen doesn't show seperated values.
And also the Humans Racial with Sword and Mace is possibly bugged whith this 10 expertise instead of 5, I wonder if it counts for both hands.
The old Orc Racial weapon skill was counted seperate for each Hand.
You could see this in your Char screen.
How ist it with the new racial? The Char screen doesn't show seperated values.
And also the Humans Racial with Sword and Mace is possibly bugged whith this 10 expertise instead of 5, I wonder if it counts for both hands.
Last edited by kyote : 11/21/07 at 3:52 AM.
For all the talk of racials recently, especially humans with sword and mace, has anyone confirmed that its not just a display issue? The character screen has shown things incorrectly before, only taking certain things into account but not others.
Well, that's not really easy to test. I guess the simplest way would be to make tests on dodge in the similar way as the tests on misses and weapon skill were done before 2.3. The problem is that we don't know the exact figure for base dodge (most people claim it's 5.6, but I haven't seen any really good tests of this). If we can assume a 5.6% base dodge, then you need to get enough Expertise minus the expertise from the racial (10 or 5) to cap this. Look at the logs and see if you have any dodges => constraints on the racial.
I have no real facts, I'm just speaking from my experience in the last raids and some data in WWS.
When dual-wielding Mace + Sword instead of Mace + Mace, I got less dodges in WWS. Last night at Solarian I even had not 1 single Dodge at the mobs spawning from Solarian. This makes sense, when 10 Expertise + Weapon Mastery gives -4,5% Dodge, the trash mobs, Solarian spawns, couldn't dodge (I even made quite much use of whirlwind/cleave/sweeping strikes, so I had many attacks on the mobs), due to 5% basechance to dodge, -4,5% would be 0,50% dodge. Just some thoughts, no facts.
Wow Web Stats
When dual-wielding Mace + Sword instead of Mace + Mace, I got less dodges in WWS. Last night at Solarian I even had not 1 single Dodge at the mobs spawning from Solarian. This makes sense, when 10 Expertise + Weapon Mastery gives -4,5% Dodge, the trash mobs, Solarian spawns, couldn't dodge (I even made quite much use of whirlwind/cleave/sweeping strikes, so I had many attacks on the mobs), due to 5% basechance to dodge, -4,5% would be 0,50% dodge. Just some thoughts, no facts.
Wow Web Stats
I'm going to agree with Kaan. Using a sword/mace combo I had the following results in Hyjal/BT:
Melee attacks landed: 4575
Dodged attacks: 110
Parried attacks: 51
I've seen similar results since the patch and I'd feel pretty confidant saying 10 expertise is applied globally.
Melee attacks landed: 4575
Dodged attacks: 110
Parried attacks: 51
I've seen similar results since the patch and I'd feel pretty confidant saying 10 expertise is applied globally.
Well based on your numbers:
that's 2.3%.
|
Originally Posted by hawkk
Melee attacks landed: 4575
Dodged attacks: 110 Parried attacks: 51 |
WoW Web Stats
Here's the WWS link. I think I misread the number of attacks. WWS calculated dodges at 1%, but yeah, what I posted is obviously not 1%.
Here's the WWS link. I think I misread the number of attacks. WWS calculated dodges at 1%, but yeah, what I posted is obviously not 1%.
Edited onPatch 2.3.0
I'll get a WWS for confirmation asap (hopefully tonight), but from glancing over Recount, with 10 expertise from racials, 5 from a [Shapeshifter's Signet], and -2% dodge from Weapon Mastery, I *only* saw dodges on fights with lvl 73 mobs, with a full VR fight getting 6 dodges and a full Solarian getting 1. This is in agreement with an assumed -5.75% to dodge.
Last edited by Kolmar : 11/21/07 at 4:53 PM. Reason: added sum of -dodge, item link
According to the 2.3.2 Patch Notes, Defiance's Weapon Expertise bonus(+6) now applies to all stances.
So with the expertise from Defiance confirmed to be active in all stances, would it be viable to pick this up rather than go for the usual Impale?
|
Originally Posted by Melkoran
So with the expertise from Defiance confirmed to be active in all stances, would it be viable to pick this up rather than go for the usual Impale?
|
Aye, didn't think is was worth losing the 20% critical bonus, Thought this does bring up another question of mine which I've had a dilemma with...
...In my current Fury spec, I have to choose between Improved Execute or the 2% reduced dodge where improved intercept used to be. I'm leaning towards the execute, but I'm not sure if the overall DPS upgrade from the dodge would outweigh the last 20% from the greater execute damage.
...In my current Fury spec, I have to choose between Improved Execute or the 2% reduced dodge where improved intercept used to be. I'm leaning towards the execute, but I'm not sure if the overall DPS upgrade from the dodge would outweigh the last 20% from the greater execute damage.
|
Originally Posted by Melkoran
Aye, didn't think is was worth losing the 20% critical bonus, Thought this does bring up another question of mine which I've had a dilemma with...
...In my current Fury spec, I have to choose between Improved Execute or the 2% reduced dodge where improved intercept used to be. I'm leaning towards the execute, but I'm not sure if the overall DPS upgrade from the dodge would outweigh the last 20% from the greater execute damage. |
Your options are Imp Execute or Precision for the 2 points.
|
Originally Posted by hawkk
WoW Web Stats
Here's the WWS link. I think I misread the number of attacks. WWS calculated dodges at 1%, but yeah, what I posted is obviously not 1%. |
As Tauren (the Spreadsheet says) it would boost my Damage, but not as Orc, if the racial doesn#t count for it.
Edited onPatch 2.3.0
|
Originally Posted by Melkoran
So with the expertise from Defiance confirmed to be active in all stances, would it be viable to pick this up rather than go for the usual Impale?
|
According to the spreadsheet with my current gear,
2/2 Impale + 3.6% dodge on targets gives me 1095dps (current 17/44/0)
0/2 Impale + 2.1% dodge (ie 6 expertise) gives me 1119dps (5/41/15)
As I don't know how to change expertise in the spreadsheet, I just replaced the numbers in "buffed dps" tab. I'm not sure if it doesn't erase formulas or so
Last edited by Ondskapt : 11/22/07 at 7:23 AM. Reason: add templates
Armory:
The World of Warcraft Armory
Got a good deal of armor pen gear over the week. Went from 0 armor pen to around 450. Other changes were that I decided to use a fast offhand [Claw of the Phoenix] rather than the 2.6 speed [Netherbane]. Also, I had a rogue in my group who popped drums of battle.
I find the results interesting. First of all, I had a lower crit rate than before which I had anticipated would lead to average results but it really didn't seem to matter. Also, it seems that with 1.5 speed offhand I did 7% of my overall damage from whirlwind whereas with a slow offhand it was just 9%. I'm undecided about which season 3 offhand to buy, slow or fast. Any thoughts?
Last week's WWS:
1520 DPS sustained
Gerbell - WWS
This week's WWS:
1732 DPS sustained
Gerbell - WWS
The World of Warcraft Armory
Got a good deal of armor pen gear over the week. Went from 0 armor pen to around 450. Other changes were that I decided to use a fast offhand [Claw of the Phoenix] rather than the 2.6 speed [Netherbane]. Also, I had a rogue in my group who popped drums of battle.
I find the results interesting. First of all, I had a lower crit rate than before which I had anticipated would lead to average results but it really didn't seem to matter. Also, it seems that with 1.5 speed offhand I did 7% of my overall damage from whirlwind whereas with a slow offhand it was just 9%. I'm undecided about which season 3 offhand to buy, slow or fast. Any thoughts?
Last week's WWS:
1520 DPS sustained
Gerbell - WWS
This week's WWS:
1732 DPS sustained
Gerbell - WWS
|
Originally Posted by Ondskapt
I had the same idea.
According to the spreadsheet with my current gear, 2/2 Impale + 3.6% dodge on targets gives me 1095dps (current 17/44/0) 0/2 Impale + 2.1% dodge (ie 6 expertise) gives me 1119dps (5/41/15) As I don't know how to change expertise in the spreadsheet, I just replaced the numbers in "buffed dps" tab. I'm not sure if it doesn't erase formulas or so |
It may be good enough to consider though, a very nice build for 5-man tanking as well as added survivability in both PvE and PvP. Having TM should be quite nice as well for PvP. I would go 3/44/14 though.
I just specced 3/44/14 and will try this tonight. However, the 6 expertise only become active when I switch to defensive stance - 10 in berserk --> 16 in defensive. (This -might- be a display issue - I will test this tonight, currently, I'm sitting at -5.75% dodge - so there shouldn't be any more dodges).
I know I will have roughly 20-30 dps less than before, but I do gain last stand, 1000 armor and tactical mastery. Also I bought imp. Bloodrage, which is not as good as anger management though.
I defintitely like the added survivability from last stand. Think of the following encounters:
Winterchill
Azgalor
Archimonde
------------
Naj'entus
RoS (Phase III)
Shahraz (a free 3000 health pot for FA)
Council (those unlucky blizzard + venom + X moments)
I know I will have roughly 20-30 dps less than before, but I do gain last stand, 1000 armor and tactical mastery. Also I bought imp. Bloodrage, which is not as good as anger management though.
I defintitely like the added survivability from last stand. Think of the following encounters:
Winterchill
Azgalor
Archimonde
------------
Naj'entus
RoS (Phase III)
Shahraz (a free 3000 health pot for FA)
Council (those unlucky blizzard + venom + X moments)
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Originally Posted by Bronwyn
I just specced 3/44/14 and will try this tonight. However, the 6 expertise only become active when I switch to defensive stance - 10 in berserk --> 16 in defensive. (This -might- be a display issue - I will test this tonight, currently, I'm sitting at -5.75% dodge - so there shouldn't be any more dodges).
|
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Originally Posted by Gruntle
Hmm, I don't get that. I get a slight dps loss when not having Impale and adding 6 expertise. About 1% dps loss (10 dps in gear giving me about 1000 dps). Also, Deep wounds is not modeled in the spreadsheet, it will add some damage. There must be somethiong wrong with how you set things up, you cannot gain 25 dps by getting rid of 3 talent points in fury and Impale.
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Anyway it becomes really interesting to get Shield Block/Last stand/Defiance to be a bit more versatile when the time to tank comes. I'll try this when it will become live
What I am interested in seeing is how a 2/46/13 build would work, defiance/impexecute vs impale.
Common sense tells me that 6 expertise is in no way comparable to 20% bonus damage on crits plus deep wounds.
It will be a nice bonus for Prot Warrior DPS, but it would be OP if it were the best option for a fury build.
MS DPS is alive and well. I recently hit 1540 DPS on Teron Gorefiend. I was wondering if anyone has links to an MS warrior doing more damage on the Gorefiend fight. I would like to study it, the rotations etc. Thanks for any help guys.
Wow Web Stats
Wow Web Stats
As a sort of update from a post I made a few pages back - looks like some of the other Gorefiend nights were flukes. Recap showed me doing ~1600 DPS last night on him :O
Sadly no WWS, only screenshots of damage meters, but it was the usual Slam rotation through the whole thing breaking once or twice for rage issues (i.e. only MS/WW, no slam).
Sadly no WWS, only screenshots of damage meters, but it was the usual Slam rotation through the whole thing breaking once or twice for rage issues (i.e. only MS/WW, no slam).
Well I currently run a 35/5/21 spec for arenas and off tanking, so the tanking options really isn't a factor unless taking into consideration certain fights as someone said before.
I am, however, finding that my impale will outweigh my expertise.
I am, however, finding that my impale will outweigh my expertise.
Yeah my 17/44 build's damage was back to normal if not better this week...oddness.
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Originally Posted by Emeraude
Yeah my 17/44 build's damage was back to normal if not better this week...oddness.
|
|
Originally Posted by Emeraude
Yeah my 17/44 build's damage was back to normal if not better this week...oddness.
|
Yea, I was pretty upset about the Deathwish change when I heard about it. It turns out though, that my DPS has stayed about the same.
Heres Teron from this week Loading...
1942 DPS
My previous best was about 1700, although I was drunk with heroisms for the 1942 attempt, so its hard to gauge.
I really hate to be one of these guys but could someone use the spreadsheet to see what gives more dps; Red Belt of Battle or Belt of One-Hundred Deaths? Thanks in advance.
I think you know that this isnt the place for this, but I think it is worth stating that the spreadsheet is not for pure item comparisons, x vs y. While it can serve that purpose if you input all your own gear, then just switch those two items about, the great thing about the spreadsheet is that it calculates the effect stats have beyond the obvious ones.
For example, what is 1% crit worth?
1% more damage? What about flurry uptime? If your crit is 25%, versus someone with 40%, wont their be a difference between the effect it has on flurry uptime? What about rage generation? Does allow you to use a different cycle?
And the list goes on. All I am trying to say is that the spreadsheet when used in the context of your current gear. It is a brilliant tool, and its pretty easy to use, so I'd just go over and give it a try for yourself.
For example, what is 1% crit worth?
1% more damage? What about flurry uptime? If your crit is 25%, versus someone with 40%, wont their be a difference between the effect it has on flurry uptime? What about rage generation? Does allow you to use a different cycle?
And the list goes on. All I am trying to say is that the spreadsheet when used in the context of your current gear. It is a brilliant tool, and its pretty easy to use, so I'd just go over and give it a try for yourself.
I'm not sure how dr_AllCOM3, Gruntle and others that have been working on the spreadsheet as well as the upcoming interactive online version would feel about me posting this, but MaxDPS.com: A World of Warcraft Formula Site - Warrior DPS Gear Rankings is a pretty neat site and seems to be moderately accurate. It's something that people that either cannot seem to get the spreadsheet to function correctly, or are just too lazy to input everything can use for an answer to the "is X better than Y for me?" questions.
Yes what the above poster said is pretty accurate. I plugged it the belt of one-hundred deaths to my dps spreadsheet to compare the dps vs red belt of battle, red belt of battle is about 15 dps better than the one-hundred on my gear but I think it is safe to say red belt > one-hundred.
I understand Agwho and I do appreciate the time that went into that spreadsheet, I just can't bring myself to get used to it and put all the information in. The majority of the time I know which item is better etc but unlike you guys I just don't know why it is.
I also put in my stats on the website Graul posted and the Belt of One-Hundred Deaths came out above the belt of battle, all be it by 1.25 dps. Hit just doesnt seem as valuable compared to the new expertise.
I also put in my stats on the website Graul posted and the Belt of One-Hundred Deaths came out above the belt of battle, all be it by 1.25 dps. Hit just doesnt seem as valuable compared to the new expertise.
Testet 3/44/14 yesterday and was surprised. Even though I lose DPS, it wasn't as bad as expected at all. (Roughly 30-40 dps lost on average). I'll give you some webstats for RoS, Trash and Shahraz.
However, Last Stand was just amazing and saved me several times - the final 20 Seconds of RoS I had 16k life ... a bad Fatal Attraction is not bad at all when you can instantly pop an additional 4k Health ...
Better still - coming patch you will gain another 6 Expertise this way. Right now I am thinking about switching the other 3 points from HS to some nice things in Fury - making it a 0/47/14 build.
WoW Web Stats
However, Last Stand was just amazing and saved me several times - the final 20 Seconds of RoS I had 16k life ... a bad Fatal Attraction is not bad at all when you can instantly pop an additional 4k Health ...
Better still - coming patch you will gain another 6 Expertise this way. Right now I am thinking about switching the other 3 points from HS to some nice things in Fury - making it a 0/47/14 build.
WoW Web Stats
|
Originally Posted by hellenkeller
MS DPS is alive and well. I recently hit 1540 DPS on Teron Gorefiend. I was wondering if anyone has links to an MS warrior doing more damage on the Gorefiend fight. I would like to study it, the rotations etc. Thanks for any help guys.
Wow Web Stats |
1642 DPS
Wow Web Stats
1544
Wow Web Stats
Pre 2.3, worse gear then I have now, using a 33.28 spec.
I also only have time to use one Deathwish, as opposed to your two.
Same goes for Bloodlusts, where I get one, you get two.
On the 1642 dps kill I used 2 haste potions.
I swap to dual weilding while executing.
|
Originally Posted by Qruz
1642 DPS
Wow Web Stats 1544 Wow Web Stats Pre 2.3, worse gear then I have now, using a 33.28 spec. I also only have time to use one Deathwish, as opposed to your two. Same goes for Bloodlusts, where I get one, you get two. On the 1642 dps kill I used 2 haste potions. I swap to dual weilding while executing. |
|
Originally Posted by Graul
I'm not sure how dr_AllCOM3, Gruntle and others that have been working on the spreadsheet as well as the upcoming interactive online version would feel about me posting this, but MaxDPS.com: A World of Warcraft Formula Site - Warrior DPS Gear Rankings is a pretty neat site and seems to be moderately accurate. It's something that people that either cannot seem to get the spreadsheet to function correctly, or are just too lazy to input everything can use for an answer to the "is X better than Y for me?" questions.
|
- Expertise is modeled, but Weapon mastery is not included as an important talent?
- No execute damage modeling?
- Is HS damage included at all? I suspect that the tool does all calculations based on cooldowns and not on the actual rage income.
- Flurry modeled correctly?
Those are ofc just details, but I see at least 2 main problems with a web applet of this kind (something that also Tornhoofs WoWOptimizer suffers from imo).
1. You cannot see the theorycrafting/formulae even if you want to. In a spreadsheet it's easy to bugsearch and change things that you think are wrong.
2. One author, if that person quits wow (or gives up on the tool), project dies. A spreadsheet is far easier to maintain. Others can pick up easily and continue the work.
I don't know, maybe it would be helpful if one of the spreadsheet addicts (yeah I'm one of them...) posted a list of some different stat/talent setups with output dps and SEP values? People that are too lazy to run the spreadsheet could then use that list as a reference for gear choices. The spreadsheet is a tad messy to use (it's the circular references that messes things up most of the time), but using the supplied macros normally fixes things. If you're using OpenOffice things could be a bit more troubling, you could check my posts in the spreadsheet thread for some advice (or just pm me).
|
Originally Posted by Qruz
1642 DPS
Wow Web Stats 1544 Wow Web Stats Pre 2.3, worse gear then I have now, using a 33.28 spec. I also only have time to use one Deathwish, as opposed to your two. Same goes for Bloodlusts, where I get one, you get two. On the 1642 dps kill I used 2 haste potions. I swap to dual weilding while executing. |
Do you always swap to dual wield and execute, or only when you get heroism or something similar? I've heard about Arms warriors switching to DW and executing a bit before, but I've never tried myself. If it is an increase in DPS and the difference is spamming 1 button vs maintaining a rotation, I don't see why not to do it.
|
Originally Posted by mikebro
Do you always swap to dual wield and execute, or only when you get heroism or something similar? I've heard about Arms warriors switching to DW and executing a bit before, but I've never tried myself. If it is an increase in DPS and the difference is spamming 1 button vs maintaining a rotation, I don't see why not to do it.
|
Switching to dual wielding a pair of fast weapons for execure guarantees a constant flow of rage from fast white attacks. I actually use brutalizer (have Soul Cleaver for 2-hander, so am poleaxe spec) and Swiftsteel Bludgeon and the dps increase is quite noticable.
|
Originally Posted by hellenkeller
MS DPS is alive and well. I recently hit 1540 DPS on Teron Gorefiend. I was wondering if anyone has links to an MS warrior doing more damage on the Gorefiend fight. I would like to study it, the rotations etc. Thanks for any help guys.
Wow Web Stats |
My question would be, since there is no windfury available to me, should I just submit to my guild's wishes and go fury?
My problem could also be in my slam rotation. Currently I do a Slam near the end of a normal attack (timed with Quartz) and then follow up with an instant attack right after. Is there a better rotation I could be using? I checked the DPS spreadsheet by Dr_Allcom and it shows Slam x4, MS>WW. What does this mean exactly? I've interpreted it as spamming Slam 4 times back-to-back and following up with a MS. But that achieved poor DPS results.
Any help is appreciated.
|
Originally Posted by kraaken
What I am interested in seeing is how a 2/46/13 build would work, defiance/impexecute vs impale.
|
It seems to be really hard to catch a fury warrior on the armory with his PvE gear equipped and spec'd for raiding after looking at their WWS, so I figured I'd kill 2 birds and ask on here...
My warrior used to consistantly be top DPS when we started in SSC and now I find myself usually 5th-9th. With my gear, am I about on par? If not, is there something I'm doing wrong that anyone can see? Its really bugging me quite a bit.
Here is the WWS for part of our SSC on the 20th Wow Web Stats
Note, I got tier 5 legs and tsunami later on this run, I was previously using Midnight leggings w/ 40ap kit with 3x 8-crit gems and Solarian battleshout trinket.
Also, I have a tendancy to ask questions in the wrong thread so if there is another thread I should post this in let me know and I'll move it.
Thanks.
My warrior used to consistantly be top DPS when we started in SSC and now I find myself usually 5th-9th. With my gear, am I about on par? If not, is there something I'm doing wrong that anyone can see? Its really bugging me quite a bit.
Here is the WWS for part of our SSC on the 20th Wow Web Stats
Note, I got tier 5 legs and tsunami later on this run, I was previously using Midnight leggings w/ 40ap kit with 3x 8-crit gems and Solarian battleshout trinket.
Also, I have a tendancy to ask questions in the wrong thread so if there is another thread I should post this in let me know and I'll move it.
Thanks.
Edited onPatch 2.3.0
|
Originally Posted by Theldon
My question would be, since there is no windfury available to me, should I just submit to my guild's wishes and go fury?
My problem could also be in my slam rotation. Currently I do a Slam near the end of a normal attack (timed with Quartz) and then follow up with an instant attack right after. Is there a better rotation I could be using? I checked the DPS spreadsheet by Dr_Allcom and it shows Slam x4, MS>WW. What does this mean exactly? I've interpreted it as spamming Slam 4 times back-to-back and following up with a MS. But that achieved poor DPS results. Any help is appreciated. |
Last edited by Touf : 11/23/07 at 4:47 PM.
|
Originally Posted by Gruntle
Hmm, I don't get that. I get a slight dps loss when not having Impale and adding 6 expertise. About 1% dps loss (10 dps in gear giving me about 1000 dps). Also, Deep wounds is not modeled in the spreadsheet, it will add some damage. There must be somethiong wrong with how you set things up, you cannot gain 25 dps by getting rid of 3 talent points in fury and Impale.
|
Anyway it becomes really interesting to get Shield Block/Last stand/Defiance to be a bit more versatile when the time to tank comes. I'll try this when it will become live
What I am interested in seeing is how a 2/46/13 build would work, defiance/impexecute vs impale.
Common sense tells me that 6 expertise is in no way comparable to 20% bonus damage on crits plus deep wounds.
It will be a nice bonus for Prot Warrior DPS, but it would be OP if it were the best option for a fury build.
MS DPS is alive and well. I recently hit 1540 DPS on Teron Gorefiend. I was wondering if anyone has links to an MS warrior doing more damage on the Gorefiend fight. I would like to study it, the rotations etc. Thanks for any help guys.
Wow Web Stats
Wow Web Stats
As a sort of update from a post I made a few pages back - looks like some of the other Gorefiend nights were flukes. Recap showed me doing ~1600 DPS last night on him :O
Sadly no WWS, only screenshots of damage meters, but it was the usual Slam rotation through the whole thing breaking once or twice for rage issues (i.e. only MS/WW, no slam).
Sadly no WWS, only screenshots of damage meters, but it was the usual Slam rotation through the whole thing breaking once or twice for rage issues (i.e. only MS/WW, no slam).
Well I currently run a 35/5/21 spec for arenas and off tanking, so the tanking options really isn't a factor unless taking into consideration certain fights as someone said before.
I am, however, finding that my impale will outweigh my expertise.
I am, however, finding that my impale will outweigh my expertise.
Yeah my 17/44 build's damage was back to normal if not better this week...oddness.
|
Originally Posted by Emeraude
Yeah my 17/44 build's damage was back to normal if not better this week...oddness.
|
|
Originally Posted by Emeraude
Yeah my 17/44 build's damage was back to normal if not better this week...oddness.
|
Yea, I was pretty upset about the Deathwish change when I heard about it. It turns out though, that my DPS has stayed about the same.
Heres Teron from this week Loading...
1942 DPS
My previous best was about 1700, although I was drunk with heroisms for the 1942 attempt, so its hard to gauge.
I really hate to be one of these guys but could someone use the spreadsheet to see what gives more dps; Red Belt of Battle or Belt of One-Hundred Deaths? Thanks in advance.
I think you know that this isnt the place for this, but I think it is worth stating that the spreadsheet is not for pure item comparisons, x vs y. While it can serve that purpose if you input all your own gear, then just switch those two items about, the great thing about the spreadsheet is that it calculates the effect stats have beyond the obvious ones.
For example, what is 1% crit worth?
1% more damage? What about flurry uptime? If your crit is 25%, versus someone with 40%, wont their be a difference between the effect it has on flurry uptime? What about rage generation? Does allow you to use a different cycle?
And the list goes on. All I am trying to say is that the spreadsheet when used in the context of your current gear. It is a brilliant tool, and its pretty easy to use, so I'd just go over and give it a try for yourself.
For example, what is 1% crit worth?
1% more damage? What about flurry uptime? If your crit is 25%, versus someone with 40%, wont their be a difference between the effect it has on flurry uptime? What about rage generation? Does allow you to use a different cycle?
And the list goes on. All I am trying to say is that the spreadsheet when used in the context of your current gear. It is a brilliant tool, and its pretty easy to use, so I'd just go over and give it a try for yourself.
I'm not sure how dr_AllCOM3, Gruntle and others that have been working on the spreadsheet as well as the upcoming interactive online version would feel about me posting this, but MaxDPS.com: A World of Warcraft Formula Site - Warrior DPS Gear Rankings is a pretty neat site and seems to be moderately accurate. It's something that people that either cannot seem to get the spreadsheet to function correctly, or are just too lazy to input everything can use for an answer to the "is X better than Y for me?" questions.
Yes what the above poster said is pretty accurate. I plugged it the belt of one-hundred deaths to my dps spreadsheet to compare the dps vs red belt of battle, red belt of battle is about 15 dps better than the one-hundred on my gear but I think it is safe to say red belt > one-hundred.
I understand Agwho and I do appreciate the time that went into that spreadsheet, I just can't bring myself to get used to it and put all the information in. The majority of the time I know which item is better etc but unlike you guys I just don't know why it is.
I also put in my stats on the website Graul posted and the Belt of One-Hundred Deaths came out above the belt of battle, all be it by 1.25 dps. Hit just doesnt seem as valuable compared to the new expertise.
I also put in my stats on the website Graul posted and the Belt of One-Hundred Deaths came out above the belt of battle, all be it by 1.25 dps. Hit just doesnt seem as valuable compared to the new expertise.
Testet 3/44/14 yesterday and was surprised. Even though I lose DPS, it wasn't as bad as expected at all. (Roughly 30-40 dps lost on average). I'll give you some webstats for RoS, Trash and Shahraz.
However, Last Stand was just amazing and saved me several times - the final 20 Seconds of RoS I had 16k life ... a bad Fatal Attraction is not bad at all when you can instantly pop an additional 4k Health ...
Better still - coming patch you will gain another 6 Expertise this way. Right now I am thinking about switching the other 3 points from HS to some nice things in Fury - making it a 0/47/14 build.
WoW Web Stats
However, Last Stand was just amazing and saved me several times - the final 20 Seconds of RoS I had 16k life ... a bad Fatal Attraction is not bad at all when you can instantly pop an additional 4k Health ...
Better still - coming patch you will gain another 6 Expertise this way. Right now I am thinking about switching the other 3 points from HS to some nice things in Fury - making it a 0/47/14 build.
WoW Web Stats
|
Originally Posted by hellenkeller
MS DPS is alive and well. I recently hit 1540 DPS on Teron Gorefiend. I was wondering if anyone has links to an MS warrior doing more damage on the Gorefiend fight. I would like to study it, the rotations etc. Thanks for any help guys.
Wow Web Stats |
1642 DPS
Wow Web Stats
1544
Wow Web Stats
Pre 2.3, worse gear then I have now, using a 33.28 spec.
I also only have time to use one Deathwish, as opposed to your two.
Same goes for Bloodlusts, where I get one, you get two.
On the 1642 dps kill I used 2 haste potions.
I swap to dual weilding while executing.
|
Originally Posted by Qruz
1642 DPS
Wow Web Stats 1544 Wow Web Stats Pre 2.3, worse gear then I have now, using a 33.28 spec. I also only have time to use one Deathwish, as opposed to your two. Same goes for Bloodlusts, where I get one, you get two. On the 1642 dps kill I used 2 haste potions. I swap to dual weilding while executing. |
|
Originally Posted by Graul
I'm not sure how dr_AllCOM3, Gruntle and others that have been working on the spreadsheet as well as the upcoming interactive online version would feel about me posting this, but MaxDPS.com: A World of Warcraft Formula Site - Warrior DPS Gear Rankings is a pretty neat site and seems to be moderately accurate. It's something that people that either cannot seem to get the spreadsheet to function correctly, or are just too lazy to input everything can use for an answer to the "is X better than Y for me?" questions.
|
- Expertise is modeled, but Weapon mastery is not included as an important talent?
- No execute damage modeling?
- Is HS damage included at all? I suspect that the tool does all calculations based on cooldowns and not on the actual rage income.
- Flurry modeled correctly?
Those are ofc just details, but I see at least 2 main problems with a web applet of this kind (something that also Tornhoofs WoWOptimizer suffers from imo).
1. You cannot see the theorycrafting/formulae even if you want to. In a spreadsheet it's easy to bugsearch and change things that you think are wrong.
2. One author, if that person quits wow (or gives up on the tool), project dies. A spreadsheet is far easier to maintain. Others can pick up easily and continue the work.
I don't know, maybe it would be helpful if one of the spreadsheet addicts (yeah I'm one of them...) posted a list of some different stat/talent setups with output dps and SEP values? People that are too lazy to run the spreadsheet could then use that list as a reference for gear choices. The spreadsheet is a tad messy to use (it's the circular references that messes things up most of the time), but using the supplied macros normally fixes things. If you're using OpenOffice things could be a bit more troubling, you could check my posts in the spreadsheet thread for some advice (or just pm me).
|
Originally Posted by Qruz
1642 DPS
Wow Web Stats 1544 Wow Web Stats Pre 2.3, worse gear then I have now, using a 33.28 spec. I also only have time to use one Deathwish, as opposed to your two. Same goes for Bloodlusts, where I get one, you get two. On the 1642 dps kill I used 2 haste potions. I swap to dual weilding while executing. |
Do you always swap to dual wield and execute, or only when you get heroism or something similar? I've heard about Arms warriors switching to DW and executing a bit before, but I've never tried myself. If it is an increase in DPS and the difference is spamming 1 button vs maintaining a rotation, I don't see why not to do it.
|
Originally Posted by mikebro
Do you always swap to dual wield and execute, or only when you get heroism or something similar? I've heard about Arms warriors switching to DW and executing a bit before, but I've never tried myself. If it is an increase in DPS and the difference is spamming 1 button vs maintaining a rotation, I don't see why not to do it.
|
Switching to dual wielding a pair of fast weapons for execure guarantees a constant flow of rage from fast white attacks. I actually use brutalizer (have Soul Cleaver for 2-hander, so am poleaxe spec) and Swiftsteel Bludgeon and the dps increase is quite noticable.
|
Originally Posted by hellenkeller
MS DPS is alive and well. I recently hit 1540 DPS on Teron Gorefiend. I was wondering if anyone has links to an MS warrior doing more damage on the Gorefiend fight. I would like to study it, the rotations etc. Thanks for any help guys.
Wow Web Stats |
My question would be, since there is no windfury available to me, should I just submit to my guild's wishes and go fury?
My problem could also be in my slam rotation. Currently I do a Slam near the end of a normal attack (timed with Quartz) and then follow up with an instant attack right after. Is there a better rotation I could be using? I checked the DPS spreadsheet by Dr_Allcom and it shows Slam x4, MS>WW. What does this mean exactly? I've interpreted it as spamming Slam 4 times back-to-back and following up with a MS. But that achieved poor DPS results.
Any help is appreciated.
|
Originally Posted by kraaken
What I am interested in seeing is how a 2/46/13 build would work, defiance/impexecute vs impale.
|
It seems to be really hard to catch a fury warrior on the armory with his PvE gear equipped and spec'd for raiding after looking at their WWS, so I figured I'd kill 2 birds and ask on here...
My warrior used to consistantly be top DPS when we started in SSC and now I find myself usually 5th-9th. With my gear, am I about on par? If not, is there something I'm doing wrong that anyone can see? Its really bugging me quite a bit.
Here is the WWS for part of our SSC on the 20th Wow Web Stats
Note, I got tier 5 legs and tsunami later on this run, I was previously using Midnight leggings w/ 40ap kit with 3x 8-crit gems and Solarian battleshout trinket.
Also, I have a tendancy to ask questions in the wrong thread so if there is another thread I should post this in let me know and I'll move it.
Thanks.
My warrior used to consistantly be top DPS when we started in SSC and now I find myself usually 5th-9th. With my gear, am I about on par? If not, is there something I'm doing wrong that anyone can see? Its really bugging me quite a bit.
Here is the WWS for part of our SSC on the 20th Wow Web Stats
Note, I got tier 5 legs and tsunami later on this run, I was previously using Midnight leggings w/ 40ap kit with 3x 8-crit gems and Solarian battleshout trinket.
Also, I have a tendancy to ask questions in the wrong thread so if there is another thread I should post this in let me know and I'll move it.
Thanks.
Edited onPatch 2.3.0
|
Originally Posted by Theldon
My question would be, since there is no windfury available to me, should I just submit to my guild's wishes and go fury?
My problem could also be in my slam rotation. Currently I do a Slam near the end of a normal attack (timed with Quartz) and then follow up with an instant attack right after. Is there a better rotation I could be using? I checked the DPS spreadsheet by Dr_Allcom and it shows Slam x4, MS>WW. What does this mean exactly? I've interpreted it as spamming Slam 4 times back-to-back and following up with a MS. But that achieved poor DPS results. Any help is appreciated. |
Last edited by Touf : 11/23/07 at 4:47 PM.
I've been haphazardly collecting gear to begin raiding full time as a dps warrior in Hyjal and BT. I've been checking the forums and trolling the armory looking for insight, but I havn't seen a real definitive answer to whether the 33/28 build is superior to the 17/44 dual wield.
Our guild tends to be caster heavy when raiding and it was always my assumption (perhaps foolish) that the imp slam warriors tended to be inferior unless they were in a melee heavy raid setup. I'm not great at digging through the numbers but it seems to me that the end results seem pretty comparable . . . or am I completely off base?
Edit: I should also note that our group setups are usually far from optimal. It's pretty easy to get a feral drood but I rarely get windfury.
Our guild tends to be caster heavy when raiding and it was always my assumption (perhaps foolish) that the imp slam warriors tended to be inferior unless they were in a melee heavy raid setup. I'm not great at digging through the numbers but it seems to me that the end results seem pretty comparable . . . or am I completely off base?
Edit: I should also note that our group setups are usually far from optimal. It's pretty easy to get a feral drood but I rarely get windfury.
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Originally Posted by mikebro
Do you always swap to dual wield and execute, or only when you get heroism or something similar? I've heard about Arms warriors switching to DW and executing a bit before, but I've never tried myself. If it is an increase in DPS and the difference is spamming 1 button vs maintaining a rotation, I don't see why not to do it.
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Try dual weilding, bloodlust, deathwish, recklessness, haste potion, trinket and if you're lucky, drums of battle and then spam execute
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Originally Posted by Nedkelly
I've been haphazardly collecting gear to begin raiding full time as a dps warrior in Hyjal and BT. I've been checking the forums and trolling the armory looking for insight, but I havn't seen a real definitive answer to whether the 33/28 build is superior to the 17/44 dual wield.
Our guild tends to be caster heavy when raiding and it was always my assumption (perhaps foolish) that the imp slam warriors tended to be inferior unless they were in a melee heavy raid setup. I'm not great at digging through the numbers but it seems to me that the end results seem pretty comparable . . . or am I completely off base? Edit: I should also note that our group setups are usually far from optimal. It's pretty easy to get a feral drood but I rarely get windfury. |
So I went to Maxdps.com and i input my stats for my fury warrior. What puzzled me is it said the third best mh in the game for me is talon of the phoenix. It says it produces better dps than a dragonstrike, syphon, rising tide. The only better mh's in the game it says are any of the s3 mh's or the warglaives. Thoughts opinions on this?
I even changed alot of stats around because i figured ok maybe its favoring hit. So i put my hit at 300 and it still said it was the third best mh in the game.
I even changed alot of stats around because i figured ok maybe its favoring hit. So i put my hit at 300 and it still said it was the third best mh in the game.
Thats why you should use the spreadsheet, sure its harder to use. But it gives much more accurate precise results.
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Originally Posted by Zadus
So I went to Maxdps.com and i input my stats for my fury warrior. What puzzled me is it said the third best mh in the game for me is talon of the phoenix. It says it produces better dps than a dragonstrike, syphon, rising tide. The only better mh's in the game it says are any of the s3 mh's or the warglaives. Thoughts opinions on this?
I even changed alot of stats around because i figured ok maybe its favoring hit. So i put my hit at 300 and it still said it was the third best mh in the game. |
So graul you are agreeing with the site that the talon is one of the best mh weapons in the game for a fury warrior behind s3 and warglaives?
Edited onPatch 2.3.0
It doesn't really matter what my personal opinion on it is. Both the spreadsheet and that site agree it's a very good weapon. I wouldn't use it over what I have now due to losing the expertise bonus, but if I wasn't an Orc, or blacksmith and the Talon dropped, I wouldn't feel bad for picking it up. The spreadhseet already shows it being better than what I am using anyway for any non Orc. It also looks a hell of a lot cooler...that has to count for something!
Last edited by Graul : 11/23/07 at 7:57 PM.
Yeah, my warrior is a tauren and i am 2 nethers away from a dragonstrike. But after seeing this im starting to think maybe i should pick it up and then wait for belt of red battle to drop and just craft it.
I'm using Talon of the Phoenix & Talon of Aszhara (exec/mungo). I recently got the syphon (2,8 speed, 100,2DPS + Leech proc). Considering the overall stats and die 2,7speed of both weapons I stayed with the Phoenix as MH. Spreadsheets tells me it's a ~5 DPS increase. Although the Leech Proc is a lot of fun I don't think it would compensate the 19Crit/15Hit/2AP + Style factor the Claw has.
As a Tauren I can choose my weapons quite easy for stats and not for weapon-class.
As a Tauren I can choose my weapons quite easy for stats and not for weapon-class.
I noticed that you use slow mh/slow oh. Has their been a defenitive answer on this? I see some people say its great for fast offhand still as long as its not a dagger and others say slow offhand. I dont see how a slow offhand can be great because whirlwind isnt apart of some huge percentage of our dps. Plus arent their rage problems?
Please shed some light with your opinions everyone on this. Id really like to see some numbers and reasoning.
Please shed some light with your opinions everyone on this. Id really like to see some numbers and reasoning.
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Originally Posted by Zadus
I noticed that you use slow mh/slow oh. Has their been a defenitive answer on this? I see some people say its great for fast offhand still as long as its not a dagger and others say slow offhand. I dont see how a slow offhand can be great because whirlwind isnt apart of some huge percentage of our dps. Plus arent their rage problems?
Please shed some light with your opinions everyone on this. Id really like to see some numbers and reasoning. |
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Originally Posted by Lambach
Fast OH was a myth. I've never had any rage problems with any set of weapons no matter the speed. That was a myth people threw around for a long time, but it just isnt true. Theres no reason to use a fast oh. Unless its a illidan OH.
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Now, with double whirlwinds, favor has moved towards slow OH. But as said WW has a) little percentage of my damage and b) gains more from overall ap then the actuall weapon speed. So the dps gain, while existing, might be very low depending on which weapons you can choose from.
So now, fast offhand is still a possible preference. If you have a nice slow OH and can handle its rage fine, by all means go for it. But if you use a good fast offhand you get smoother rage gain and you wont miss out on much dps.
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Originally Posted by Lambach
Fast OH was a myth. I've never had any rage problems with any set of weapons no matter the speed. That was a myth people threw around for a long time, but it just isnt true. Theres no reason to use a fast oh. Unless its a illidan OH.
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|
Originally Posted by Lambach
Fast OH was a myth. I've never had any rage problems with any set of weapons no matter the speed. That was a myth people threw around for a long time, but it just isnt true. Theres no reason to use a fast oh. Unless its a illidan OH.
|
Thats just not true, you get the same amount of rage gen with the slow weapon. It just comes in bigger bursts. And as long as you adjust to the different speed of rage gen, its all the same. Its like gettign payed once a week vs. once amonth. You still get payed teh same, you can still spend it on the same stuff, you just have to budget it better.
To say a slow OH is a myth is ridiculous. Becuase of the WW change, it will do more dmg then a fast OH of the same stats, no matter what. There is just no reason to have a fast OH at all.
To say a slow OH is a myth is ridiculous. Becuase of the WW change, it will do more dmg then a fast OH of the same stats, no matter what. There is just no reason to have a fast OH at all.
Don't forget SS includes offhand attacks, and slower weapons will beef up those hits slightly. Since it's only 10 charges, you want to make the most out of them.
Hey everyone,
Over the last few days ive gotten back to forum browsing, and ive noticed that the trend of speccing 1/2 Imp WW. seems to have disappeared. Have i missed the shift in spec changes? Afaik 1/2 Imp WW. allowed for a more solid skill rotation, and it is what im specced currently.
Over the last few days ive gotten back to forum browsing, and ive noticed that the trend of speccing 1/2 Imp WW. seems to have disappeared. Have i missed the shift in spec changes? Afaik 1/2 Imp WW. allowed for a more solid skill rotation, and it is what im specced currently.
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Originally Posted by Lambach
Thats just not true, you get the same amount of rage gen with the slow weapon. It just comes in bigger bursts. And as long as you adjust to the different speed of rage gen, its all the same. Its like gettign payed once a week vs. once amonth. You still get payed teh same, you can still spend it on the same stuff, you just have to budget it better.
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As long as your not using a dagger offhand, running with a fast offhand will not affect your dps by much, the damage lost from WW will be small (since most of the damage come from AP anyway). A fast offhand will probably cause your flurry uptime to go down by 2-4%, but the total damage loss from using a fast OH will be on the order of 1%. So there is no reason to pick a slow offhand with lower dps/stats, but if you have the choice of two equal weapon, the slower will give you a little bit higher total dps (if you don't count possible cycle failures).
Execute is alwyas better with a fast/fast setup, but you can switch to 2 fast weapons for that phase.
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Originally Posted by Lambach
To say a slow OH is a myth is ridiculous. Becuase of the WW change, it will do more dmg then a fast OH of the same stats, no matter what. There is just no reason to have a fast OH at all.
|
This is not saying that Fast or Slow OH is better, but it comes down to the rage consistency that you are comfortable with.
It also depends on itemization, I dont think anyone would use [Spiteblade] over [Blade of Savagery].
Edited onPatch 2.3.0
I'm doing fine with my slow/slow setup. My problem is, that my raid usally has another dw-warrior who gets in the melee grp. That's why I haven't been able to test my true potential for quite some time in a consistent way, because I don't have that much time to show up for every raid. Although the funny thing, I tanked Kael+a few bosses in Hyal when our MT was absent. So my raid trusts me, but most of the time I'm stucked in a non-melee grp. Lucky to get a druid or hunter there...
My WWS stats are ok, but without totems+leader of the pack I lack quite some dmg opportunities.
I will go for another fast OH for execute time, though. Rage burst are sometimes a problem, but as long as I can maintain my cycle I won't change my setup.
Btw. please support the change T6 threads in off. blizz forums. I find it very unpleasant to see S3 getting started with new gear/weapons and the T6 stuff not upgraded, as they did with T5...
I don't buy into the "but warrior got agi and with pala-buffs..." .... Give me some Crit Rating! They changed T5 and admitted it was a mistake when they put agility on T5. Now please change T6, otherwise I'm thinking of passing most of the tokens to build a T6 nonset equivalent.
My WWS stats are ok, but without totems+leader of the pack I lack quite some dmg opportunities.
I will go for another fast OH for execute time, though. Rage burst are sometimes a problem, but as long as I can maintain my cycle I won't change my setup.
Btw. please support the change T6 threads in off. blizz forums. I find it very unpleasant to see S3 getting started with new gear/weapons and the T6 stuff not upgraded, as they did with T5...
I don't buy into the "but warrior got agi and with pala-buffs..." .... Give me some Crit Rating! They changed T5 and admitted it was a mistake when they put agility on T5. Now please change T6, otherwise I'm thinking of passing most of the tokens to build a T6 nonset equivalent.
Last edited by DKP-Borgar : 11/26/07 at 3:05 PM. Reason: spelling
So since Blizz is fixing Defiance where Expertise works in all stances I have a question.
Would the 6 in Expertise make up for the loss of Deep Wounds and Impale? Mind you I am neither Orc or human.
Any theory crafting going on about this?
Would the 6 in Expertise make up for the loss of Deep Wounds and Impale? Mind you I am neither Orc or human.
Any theory crafting going on about this?
|
Originally Posted by Lopert
So since Blizz is fixing Defiance where Expertise works in all stances I have a question.
Would the 6 in Expertise make up for the loss of Deep Wounds and Impale? Mind you I am neither Orc or human. Any theory crafting going on about this? |
I picked up a [Soul Cleaver] from our first Teron kill with the intent of going 33/28 for PvE, we already have 1 fury warrior in the raid outside of myself 90% of the time so I figured Blood Frenzy would be a nice addition to the melee/hunter dps.
I've scanned the thread on various search keywords but I haven't been able to find an answer to my question. I plugged my 33/28 gear into the spreadsheet and it suggests a 4x Slam, MS/WW rotation. I was wondering how I should handle this, so if anyone could show me what a 33/28 rotation looks like it would be appreciated
The other thing I'm wondering is what I do when the boss is <19% HP, I've heard people say that I should just continue the normal rotation and forget about executing and some others say that I should swap to DW and execute.
I've scanned the thread on various search keywords but I haven't been able to find an answer to my question. I plugged my 33/28 gear into the spreadsheet and it suggests a 4x Slam, MS/WW rotation. I was wondering how I should handle this, so if anyone could show me what a 33/28 rotation looks like it would be appreciated
The other thing I'm wondering is what I do when the boss is <19% HP, I've heard people say that I should just continue the normal rotation and forget about executing and some others say that I should swap to DW and execute.
Hey, thanks for all the constructive comments I got for my queries. I guess my DPS has gone up a bit, and will continue to do so as I get better with the rotation and liberal use of heroic strike.
I've been haphazardly collecting gear to begin raiding full time as a dps warrior in Hyjal and BT. I've been checking the forums and trolling the armory looking for insight, but I havn't seen a real definitive answer to whether the 33/28 build is superior to the 17/44 dual wield.
Our guild tends to be caster heavy when raiding and it was always my assumption (perhaps foolish) that the imp slam warriors tended to be inferior unless they were in a melee heavy raid setup. I'm not great at digging through the numbers but it seems to me that the end results seem pretty comparable . . . or am I completely off base?
Edit: I should also note that our group setups are usually far from optimal. It's pretty easy to get a feral drood but I rarely get windfury.
Our guild tends to be caster heavy when raiding and it was always my assumption (perhaps foolish) that the imp slam warriors tended to be inferior unless they were in a melee heavy raid setup. I'm not great at digging through the numbers but it seems to me that the end results seem pretty comparable . . . or am I completely off base?
Edit: I should also note that our group setups are usually far from optimal. It's pretty easy to get a feral drood but I rarely get windfury.
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Originally Posted by mikebro
Do you always swap to dual wield and execute, or only when you get heroism or something similar? I've heard about Arms warriors switching to DW and executing a bit before, but I've never tried myself. If it is an increase in DPS and the difference is spamming 1 button vs maintaining a rotation, I don't see why not to do it.
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Try dual weilding, bloodlust, deathwish, recklessness, haste potion, trinket and if you're lucky, drums of battle and then spam execute
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Originally Posted by Nedkelly
I've been haphazardly collecting gear to begin raiding full time as a dps warrior in Hyjal and BT. I've been checking the forums and trolling the armory looking for insight, but I havn't seen a real definitive answer to whether the 33/28 build is superior to the 17/44 dual wield.
Our guild tends to be caster heavy when raiding and it was always my assumption (perhaps foolish) that the imp slam warriors tended to be inferior unless they were in a melee heavy raid setup. I'm not great at digging through the numbers but it seems to me that the end results seem pretty comparable . . . or am I completely off base? Edit: I should also note that our group setups are usually far from optimal. It's pretty easy to get a feral drood but I rarely get windfury. |
So I went to Maxdps.com and i input my stats for my fury warrior. What puzzled me is it said the third best mh in the game for me is talon of the phoenix. It says it produces better dps than a dragonstrike, syphon, rising tide. The only better mh's in the game it says are any of the s3 mh's or the warglaives. Thoughts opinions on this?
I even changed alot of stats around because i figured ok maybe its favoring hit. So i put my hit at 300 and it still said it was the third best mh in the game.
I even changed alot of stats around because i figured ok maybe its favoring hit. So i put my hit at 300 and it still said it was the third best mh in the game.
Thats why you should use the spreadsheet, sure its harder to use. But it gives much more accurate precise results.
|
Originally Posted by Zadus
So I went to Maxdps.com and i input my stats for my fury warrior. What puzzled me is it said the third best mh in the game for me is talon of the phoenix. It says it produces better dps than a dragonstrike, syphon, rising tide. The only better mh's in the game it says are any of the s3 mh's or the warglaives. Thoughts opinions on this?
I even changed alot of stats around because i figured ok maybe its favoring hit. So i put my hit at 300 and it still said it was the third best mh in the game. |
So graul you are agreeing with the site that the talon is one of the best mh weapons in the game for a fury warrior behind s3 and warglaives?
Edited onPatch 2.3.0
It doesn't really matter what my personal opinion on it is. Both the spreadsheet and that site agree it's a very good weapon. I wouldn't use it over what I have now due to losing the expertise bonus, but if I wasn't an Orc, or blacksmith and the Talon dropped, I wouldn't feel bad for picking it up. The spreadhseet already shows it being better than what I am using anyway for any non Orc. It also looks a hell of a lot cooler...that has to count for something!
Last edited by Graul : 11/23/07 at 7:57 PM.
Yeah, my warrior is a tauren and i am 2 nethers away from a dragonstrike. But after seeing this im starting to think maybe i should pick it up and then wait for belt of red battle to drop and just craft it.
I'm using Talon of the Phoenix & Talon of Aszhara (exec/mungo). I recently got the syphon (2,8 speed, 100,2DPS + Leech proc). Considering the overall stats and die 2,7speed of both weapons I stayed with the Phoenix as MH. Spreadsheets tells me it's a ~5 DPS increase. Although the Leech Proc is a lot of fun I don't think it would compensate the 19Crit/15Hit/2AP + Style factor the Claw has.
As a Tauren I can choose my weapons quite easy for stats and not for weapon-class.
As a Tauren I can choose my weapons quite easy for stats and not for weapon-class.
I noticed that you use slow mh/slow oh. Has their been a defenitive answer on this? I see some people say its great for fast offhand still as long as its not a dagger and others say slow offhand. I dont see how a slow offhand can be great because whirlwind isnt apart of some huge percentage of our dps. Plus arent their rage problems?
Please shed some light with your opinions everyone on this. Id really like to see some numbers and reasoning.
Please shed some light with your opinions everyone on this. Id really like to see some numbers and reasoning.
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Originally Posted by Zadus
I noticed that you use slow mh/slow oh. Has their been a defenitive answer on this? I see some people say its great for fast offhand still as long as its not a dagger and others say slow offhand. I dont see how a slow offhand can be great because whirlwind isnt apart of some huge percentage of our dps. Plus arent their rage problems?
Please shed some light with your opinions everyone on this. Id really like to see some numbers and reasoning. |
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Originally Posted by Lambach
Fast OH was a myth. I've never had any rage problems with any set of weapons no matter the speed. That was a myth people threw around for a long time, but it just isnt true. Theres no reason to use a fast oh. Unless its a illidan OH.
|
Now, with double whirlwinds, favor has moved towards slow OH. But as said WW has a) little percentage of my damage and b) gains more from overall ap then the actuall weapon speed. So the dps gain, while existing, might be very low depending on which weapons you can choose from.
So now, fast offhand is still a possible preference. If you have a nice slow OH and can handle its rage fine, by all means go for it. But if you use a good fast offhand you get smoother rage gain and you wont miss out on much dps.
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Originally Posted by Lambach
Fast OH was a myth. I've never had any rage problems with any set of weapons no matter the speed. That was a myth people threw around for a long time, but it just isnt true. Theres no reason to use a fast oh. Unless its a illidan OH.
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Originally Posted by Lambach
Fast OH was a myth. I've never had any rage problems with any set of weapons no matter the speed. That was a myth people threw around for a long time, but it just isnt true. Theres no reason to use a fast oh. Unless its a illidan OH.
|
Thats just not true, you get the same amount of rage gen with the slow weapon. It just comes in bigger bursts. And as long as you adjust to the different speed of rage gen, its all the same. Its like gettign payed once a week vs. once amonth. You still get payed teh same, you can still spend it on the same stuff, you just have to budget it better.
To say a slow OH is a myth is ridiculous. Becuase of the WW change, it will do more dmg then a fast OH of the same stats, no matter what. There is just no reason to have a fast OH at all.
To say a slow OH is a myth is ridiculous. Becuase of the WW change, it will do more dmg then a fast OH of the same stats, no matter what. There is just no reason to have a fast OH at all.
Don't forget SS includes offhand attacks, and slower weapons will beef up those hits slightly. Since it's only 10 charges, you want to make the most out of them.
Hey everyone,
Over the last few days ive gotten back to forum browsing, and ive noticed that the trend of speccing 1/2 Imp WW. seems to have disappeared. Have i missed the shift in spec changes? Afaik 1/2 Imp WW. allowed for a more solid skill rotation, and it is what im specced currently.
Over the last few days ive gotten back to forum browsing, and ive noticed that the trend of speccing 1/2 Imp WW. seems to have disappeared. Have i missed the shift in spec changes? Afaik 1/2 Imp WW. allowed for a more solid skill rotation, and it is what im specced currently.
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Originally Posted by Lambach
Thats just not true, you get the same amount of rage gen with the slow weapon. It just comes in bigger bursts. And as long as you adjust to the different speed of rage gen, its all the same. Its like gettign payed once a week vs. once amonth. You still get payed teh same, you can still spend it on the same stuff, you just have to budget it better.
|
As long as your not using a dagger offhand, running with a fast offhand will not affect your dps by much, the damage lost from WW will be small (since most of the damage come from AP anyway). A fast offhand will probably cause your flurry uptime to go down by 2-4%, but the total damage loss from using a fast OH will be on the order of 1%. So there is no reason to pick a slow offhand with lower dps/stats, but if you have the choice of two equal weapon, the slower will give you a little bit higher total dps (if you don't count possible cycle failures).
Execute is alwyas better with a fast/fast setup, but you can switch to 2 fast weapons for that phase.
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Originally Posted by Lambach
To say a slow OH is a myth is ridiculous. Becuase of the WW change, it will do more dmg then a fast OH of the same stats, no matter what. There is just no reason to have a fast OH at all.
|
This is not saying that Fast or Slow OH is better, but it comes down to the rage consistency that you are comfortable with.
It also depends on itemization, I dont think anyone would use [Spiteblade] over [Blade of Savagery].
Edited onPatch 2.3.0
I'm doing fine with my slow/slow setup. My problem is, that my raid usally has another dw-warrior who gets in the melee grp. That's why I haven't been able to test my true potential for quite some time in a consistent way, because I don't have that much time to show up for every raid. Although the funny thing, I tanked Kael+a few bosses in Hyal when our MT was absent. So my raid trusts me, but most of the time I'm stucked in a non-melee grp. Lucky to get a druid or hunter there...
My WWS stats are ok, but without totems+leader of the pack I lack quite some dmg opportunities.
I will go for another fast OH for execute time, though. Rage burst are sometimes a problem, but as long as I can maintain my cycle I won't change my setup.
Btw. please support the change T6 threads in off. blizz forums. I find it very unpleasant to see S3 getting started with new gear/weapons and the T6 stuff not upgraded, as they did with T5...
I don't buy into the "but warrior got agi and with pala-buffs..." .... Give me some Crit Rating! They changed T5 and admitted it was a mistake when they put agility on T5. Now please change T6, otherwise I'm thinking of passing most of the tokens to build a T6 nonset equivalent.
My WWS stats are ok, but without totems+leader of the pack I lack quite some dmg opportunities.
I will go for another fast OH for execute time, though. Rage burst are sometimes a problem, but as long as I can maintain my cycle I won't change my setup.
Btw. please support the change T6 threads in off. blizz forums. I find it very unpleasant to see S3 getting started with new gear/weapons and the T6 stuff not upgraded, as they did with T5...
I don't buy into the "but warrior got agi and with pala-buffs..." .... Give me some Crit Rating! They changed T5 and admitted it was a mistake when they put agility on T5. Now please change T6, otherwise I'm thinking of passing most of the tokens to build a T6 nonset equivalent.
Last edited by DKP-Borgar : 11/26/07 at 3:05 PM. Reason: spelling
So since Blizz is fixing Defiance where Expertise works in all stances I have a question.
Would the 6 in Expertise make up for the loss of Deep Wounds and Impale? Mind you I am neither Orc or human.
Any theory crafting going on about this?
Would the 6 in Expertise make up for the loss of Deep Wounds and Impale? Mind you I am neither Orc or human.
Any theory crafting going on about this?
|
Originally Posted by Lopert
So since Blizz is fixing Defiance where Expertise works in all stances I have a question.
Would the 6 in Expertise make up for the loss of Deep Wounds and Impale? Mind you I am neither Orc or human. Any theory crafting going on about this? |
I picked up a [Soul Cleaver] from our first Teron kill with the intent of going 33/28 for PvE, we already have 1 fury warrior in the raid outside of myself 90% of the time so I figured Blood Frenzy would be a nice addition to the melee/hunter dps.
I've scanned the thread on various search keywords but I haven't been able to find an answer to my question. I plugged my 33/28 gear into the spreadsheet and it suggests a 4x Slam, MS/WW rotation. I was wondering how I should handle this, so if anyone could show me what a 33/28 rotation looks like it would be appreciated
The other thing I'm wondering is what I do when the boss is <19% HP, I've heard people say that I should just continue the normal rotation and forget about executing and some others say that I should swap to DW and execute.
I've scanned the thread on various search keywords but I haven't been able to find an answer to my question. I plugged my 33/28 gear into the spreadsheet and it suggests a 4x Slam, MS/WW rotation. I was wondering how I should handle this, so if anyone could show me what a 33/28 rotation looks like it would be appreciated
The other thing I'm wondering is what I do when the boss is <19% HP, I've heard people say that I should just continue the normal rotation and forget about executing and some others say that I should swap to DW and execute.
Hey, thanks for all the constructive comments I got for my queries. I guess my DPS has gone up a bit, and will continue to do so as I get better with the rotation and liberal use of heroic strike.
@Eledorian
1) Gimme your Soul Cleaver.
2) 4x slam, MS/WW simply means: MS -> Melee hit -> Slam -> WW -> Melee hit -> Slam
3) Swap out for two fast one handers at 20%, put executioner on one and mongoose on the off hand, pop a haste potion, recklessness, death wish and try not to cramp your hand mashing the execute button (it actually has happened before).
1) Gimme your Soul Cleaver.
2) 4x slam, MS/WW simply means: MS -> Melee hit -> Slam -> WW -> Melee hit -> Slam
3) Swap out for two fast one handers at 20%, put executioner on one and mongoose on the off hand, pop a haste potion, recklessness, death wish and try not to cramp your hand mashing the execute button (it actually has happened before).
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Originally Posted by Zalein
@Eledorian
1) Gimme your Soul Cleaver. 2) 4x slam, MS/WW simply means: MS -> Melee hit -> Slam -> WW -> Melee hit -> Slam 3) Swap out for two fast one handers at 20%, put executioner on one and mongoose on the off hand, pop a haste potion, recklessness, death wish and try not to cramp your hand mashing the execute button (it actually has happened before). |
Thanks for the advice I suppose I'll have a go at it tonight in Mount Hyjal.
Edit: Is there a certain point where I want to start casting Slam? I've heard people mention 0.5 seconds after the white hit lands to maximise dps.
Edited onPatch 2.3.0
As close as possiblie to the melee hit before the slam. If you hit it at the same time, it will hit 0.5 seconds into the melee swing timer which is the most efficient and therefore highest DPS. Of course, hitting it at the exact time the melee hits is essentially impossible due to lag, but as long as the slam hits within one second of your melee you're fine. That means you have an 0.5 second margin of error, including lag, which isn't much but possible to do nonetheless. Again, it requires a lot of concentration to keep it going every time with as little possible time between your melee and your slam but this is what you should aim for.
Wow Web Stats
That's from a few Teron attempts, though we haven't killed him yet due to people who are unable to kill ghosts, which is beyond me, btw. Most slams are hitting between 0.7s - 1.5s after the melee swing, which I'm content with, though there's room for improvement.
Oh and another note, I usually let my healers know that I'm popping recklessness since in fights like Teron you WILL need more healing.
Wow Web Stats
That's from a few Teron attempts, though we haven't killed him yet due to people who are unable to kill ghosts, which is beyond me, btw. Most slams are hitting between 0.7s - 1.5s after the melee swing, which I'm content with, though there's room for improvement.
Oh and another note, I usually let my healers know that I'm popping recklessness since in fights like Teron you WILL need more healing.
Last edited by Zalein : 11/27/07 at 6:46 AM.
I finally got a WWS log of the guild. Check this one and if you have any tips or any comments to make, I'll appreciate it =)
As my Armory shows, I still miss a few enchants and a good off-hand weapon(waiting for s3 weapon since it is the best Warglaives aside).
The Shaman was restoration specced and died at some point, then self-ressed, so we lost about half of a minute of his buffs.
Wow Web Stats
As my Armory shows, I still miss a few enchants and a good off-hand weapon(waiting for s3 weapon since it is the best Warglaives aside).
The Shaman was restoration specced and died at some point, then self-ressed, so we lost about half of a minute of his buffs.
Wow Web Stats
|
Originally Posted by Danath
I finally got a WWS log of the guild. Check this one and if you have any tips or any comments to make, I'll appreciate it =)
As my Armory shows, I still miss a few enchants and a good off-hand weapon(waiting for s3 weapon since it is the best Warglaives aside). The Shaman was restoration specced and died at some point, then self-ressed, so we lost about half of a minute of his buffs. Wow Web Stats |
|
Originally Posted by Eledorian
Looks to me like you rebuffed rampage alot for a 6minute fight. Maybe try rebuffing it when there's around 5-7 seconds left on the buff if you can, should save you rage for more heroic strikes.
|
Unluckily enough my guild doesn't have an Enhancement Shaman, they didn't even have a dedicated Fury Warrior before me and sometimes melee group doesn't get a shaman at all....They prefer to run with three rogues. Trying to search for some raw data showing how much of a DPS gain it is really for the whole group...Hopefully they will understand then.
By the way, I didn't have Greaves of the Bloodwarder in that fight(took them from her very dead corpse); I used Warbringer Greaves without the enchant before.
|
Originally Posted by Danath
That is true, i tend to rebuff it sooner than later but that is because I want to avoid some unlucky streak of chainmiss/dodge/glancing etc, anything that could lead me to temporarily lose the five stack. Maybe I should try and refresh it later.
Unluckily enough my guild doesn't have an Enhancement Shaman, they didn't even have a dedicated Fury Warrior before me and sometimes melee group doesn't get a shaman at all....They prefer to run with three rogues. Trying to search for some raw data showing how much of a DPS gain it is really for the whole group...Hopefully they will understand then. By the way, I didn't have Greaves of the Bloodwarder in that fight(took them from her very dead corpse); I used Warbringer Greaves without the enchant before. |
Week 1# Run your usual content without a shaman, log all the data and create a WWS report.
Week 2# Run the same content (and same group setup) with a shaman dropping WF, again log the data and create a WWS report.
Present results
It should show an average gain of 200dps for you atleast, and possibly something in the same direction for rogue's.
The difference between melee dps in week 1 and week 2 should be enough to prove a point.
|
Originally Posted by Eledorian
If I might make a suggestion to get you an enhancement shaman do the following.
Week 1# Run your usual content without a shaman, log all the data and create a WWS report. Week 2# Run the same content (and same group setup) with a shaman dropping WF, again log the data and create a WWS report. Present results It should show an average gain of 200dps for you atleast, and possibly something in the same direction for rogue's. The difference between melee dps in week 1 and week 2 should be enough to prove a point. |
And of course an Enhancement Shaman could provide an even greater benefit given Unleashed Rage, Imp SoE and Imp WF totem. Quite frankly the group would do a lot more total DPS than with a rogue, even if he has good gear.
Ohh, if only I could get Dragonspine Trophy...
To me it's staggering how much an enhancement shaman influences my DPS. I know it's more of a change for a 2h warrior but still... Going from 800-900 DPS to 1100-1200 is a huge dependency on another class.
Eledorian: http://www.honorbound.se/Slamdps2.pdf is still a very nice reference.
|
Originally Posted by Zalein
As close as possiblie to the melee hit before the slam.
|
|
Originally Posted by Amorpheus
Eledorian: http://www.honorbound.se/Slamdps2.pdf is still a very nice reference.
|
|
Originally Posted by stampy
Use a swing timer (quartz), or at the bare minimum watch for the white hit on SCTD or in a combat log. Don't go by the animation or by the floaty combat text over your targets head -- they look nice, but are crap for knowing when that instant that you actually "swing" is. At least on a tauren, the contact on the animation is a half second or more after the actual hit.
|
)I think I'll stick with this spec for a while though, it's certainly a change from 3xBT/2xWW -> HS, a lot more challenging to time slam to achieve higher dps.
|
Originally Posted by Zalein
To me it's staggering how much an enhancement shaman influences my DPS. I know it's more of a change for a 2h warrior but still... Going from 800-900 DPS to 1100-1200 is a huge dependency on another class.
|
Now the gain should be less evident in terms of DPS, it's a lot important for rage generation though.
Edited onPatch 2.3.0
|
Originally Posted by Danath
This was true pre-hotfix but now only auto-attacks and heroic strikes/cleaves proc Windfury, which actually favors Fury.
Now the gain should be less evident in terms of DPS, it's a lot important for rage generation though. |
Wow Web Stats
I just realized I'm missing with 9% hit flat. *gasp* I thought 9% was cap for 2h melee?!? *freaking out a bit*
Last edited by Zalein : 11/28/07 at 6:13 AM.
|
Originally Posted by Zalein
I just realized I'm missing with 9% hit flat. *gasp* I thought 9% was cap for 2h melee?!? *freaking out a bit*
|
Start at post 3093
Edited onPatch 2.3.0
Well, I don't know if I missed the post you meant, I looked around post 3093 and the following pages but they don't explain why I'm missing on the boss itself. Take a look here:
Wow Web Stats
Also on this page:
Zalein - WWS
If you expand the Damage Out section it you will see I have:
Miss Total: 15.8 %
Miss: 11 %
Parry: 1 %
Dodge: 3 %
Edit: I'm really starting to think I might have gone in with some wrong gear on me, 11% miss is insane. Grrr.
Wow Web Stats
Also on this page:
Zalein - WWS
If you expand the Damage Out section it you will see I have:
Miss Total: 15.8 %
Miss: 11 %
Parry: 1 %
Dodge: 3 %
Edit: I'm really starting to think I might have gone in with some wrong gear on me, 11% miss is insane.
Grrr.Last edited by Zalein : 11/28/07 at 8:31 AM.
Zalein I am no expert on WWS reports (I just look at pretty big numbers usually). Yet it looks like you switched over to DW for your execute spam. This would lead to a lot of attacks being made sub 20% and a reasonable amount missing which would skew your overall miss rate on melee to the high rate seen.
Ah, of course, you're right. Scared myself for a moment there.
Edited onPatch 2.3.0
So to continue my comparison of MS and fury post 2.3, I had a pretty good set of boss kills yesterday as MS which I think further reinforces my earlier point that MS is vastly superior to fury as the first or only dps warrior in a given raid.
Kaz'rogal: WWS
Anetheron (Slept twice): WWS
Teron Gorefiend: WWS
I'm interested to see if anybody has recorded attempts with higher dps on those bosses post wf/sword spec/dst nerfs, I certainly don't have the best possible gear but those beat my previous bests by a fair amount. I was using my current spec on the armory, and my gear was an optimal bt/hyjal ms setup.
Kaz'rogal: WWS
Anetheron (Slept twice): WWS
Teron Gorefiend: WWS
I'm interested to see if anybody has recorded attempts with higher dps on those bosses post wf/sword spec/dst nerfs, I certainly don't have the best possible gear but those beat my previous bests by a fair amount. I was using my current spec on the armory, and my gear was an optimal bt/hyjal ms setup.
Last edited by Modrack : 11/28/07 at 7:57 PM.
Edited onPatch 2.3.0
I guess id have to agree with you, MS is better for the raid. I did 1940 dps on Anetheron, I can post wws later if people need but it hasn't been posted on our forums yet, dunno why. Teron I got screwed over this week, but Ill try next week as 33/28. I would assume Id do about the same dps as Anetheron, 1900's. DW fury I did 2066 dps on him, so for the benafit of the raid, MS is better. Only problem is, I really find DW fury more fun in raids, but if it comes down to a fight like loathab in sunwell where we need all the dps we can get, 33/28 it is.
Also 2 questions for you Modrack. Since coming to Drow, it has for the most part been a very positive experience, except for the fact that they want the dps warrior to have improved demo to debuff, which I noticed you don't have to do. I know many guilds have the dps war do it, some don't. improved demo comes at the loss of UW, and having to spam it because its resist 1/2 the time hurts rotations. Since we are on farm now and blast through hyjal/bt they are letting me just go all out and dps on some bosses rather then help debuff. My question is, how do you get out of having to do that? a prot warrior with imp demo, or you just go completely without it?
2nd question makes me feel dumb because you must know something neither BT guild I've been in knows, but how are you avoiding Kaz'rogal's constant stuns? even standing max melee range Im getting hit by it. to do the same dps on him your doing on teron you must not be getting interupted at all.
Also 2 questions for you Modrack. Since coming to Drow, it has for the most part been a very positive experience, except for the fact that they want the dps warrior to have improved demo to debuff, which I noticed you don't have to do. I know many guilds have the dps war do it, some don't. improved demo comes at the loss of UW, and having to spam it because its resist 1/2 the time hurts rotations. Since we are on farm now and blast through hyjal/bt they are letting me just go all out and dps on some bosses rather then help debuff. My question is, how do you get out of having to do that? a prot warrior with imp demo, or you just go completely without it?
2nd question makes me feel dumb because you must know something neither BT guild I've been in knows, but how are you avoiding Kaz'rogal's constant stuns? even standing max melee range Im getting hit by it. to do the same dps on him your doing on teron you must not be getting interupted at all.
Last edited by Cruor : 11/29/07 at 4:10 AM.
Well since we are on the topic, as for the future of the DPS warrior, should MS do more for a raid than Fury? If, and I havent yet seen a WWS with both MS and Fury so I wont claim to know, MS does more damage and brings blood frenzy, what should the role of fury be? Its a lot less defined what direction the trees are taking. Not so much in terms of getting raid spots, but in definition.
|
Originally Posted by Cruor
Also 2 questions for you Modrack. Since coming to Drow, it has for the most part been a very positive experience, except for the fact that they want the dps warrior to have improved demo to debuff, which I noticed you don't have to do. I know many guilds have the dps war do it, some don't. improved demo comes at the loss of UW, and having to spam it because its resist 1/2 the time hurts rotations. Since we are on farm now and blast through hyjal/bt they are letting me just go all out and dps on some bosses rather then help debuff. My question is, how do you get out of having to do that? a prot warrior with imp demo, or you just go completely without it?
2nd question makes me feel dumb because you must know something neither BT guild I've been in knows, but how are you avoiding Kaz'rogal's constant stuns? even standing max melee range Im getting hit by it. to do the same dps on him your doing on teron you must not be getting interupted at all. |
2. He's a cheap, overpowered Tauren.
Someone mentioned earlier in this thread that swapping for 2 fast weapons for execute period is an option for MS warriors. Anyone got any experience (wws) on that? I've been avoiding execute at all (except during recklessness), as I don't have neither improved execute or the t6 bonus. In any case, it'll be testing it and posting my own WWS afterwards.
|
Originally Posted by Zadus
So I went to Maxdps.com and i input my stats for my fury warrior. What puzzled me is it said the third best mh in the game for me is talon of the phoenix. It says it produces better dps than a dragonstrike, syphon, rising tide. The only better mh's in the game it says are any of the s3 mh's or the warglaives. Thoughts opinions on this?
I even changed alot of stats around because i figured ok maybe its favoring hit. So i put my hit at 300 and it still said it was the third best mh in the game. |
I did this on our last (and only thus far) Teron kill. Here are the splits, although they are not exact, it's a fair estimate. I don't have improved execute or T6 2 piece bonus.
100% - 20% (1335 DPS) - Wow Web Stats
20% - 0% (1907 DPS) - Wow Web Stats
While we're on the subject, is there a way to split a report between exact seconds instead of the predefined splits given by WWS? If I could start counting from my first execute to 0% the DPS would be higher, I'm sure, since with the predefined splits, I don't have my recklessness/death wish/trinket/haste potion phase in there.
100% - 20% (1335 DPS) - Wow Web Stats
20% - 0% (1907 DPS) - Wow Web Stats
While we're on the subject, is there a way to split a report between exact seconds instead of the predefined splits given by WWS? If I could start counting from my first execute to 0% the DPS would be higher, I'm sure, since with the predefined splits, I don't have my recklessness/death wish/trinket/haste potion phase in there.
@Eledorian
1) Gimme your Soul Cleaver.
2) 4x slam, MS/WW simply means: MS -> Melee hit -> Slam -> WW -> Melee hit -> Slam
3) Swap out for two fast one handers at 20%, put executioner on one and mongoose on the off hand, pop a haste potion, recklessness, death wish and try not to cramp your hand mashing the execute button (it actually has happened before).
1) Gimme your Soul Cleaver.
2) 4x slam, MS/WW simply means: MS -> Melee hit -> Slam -> WW -> Melee hit -> Slam
3) Swap out for two fast one handers at 20%, put executioner on one and mongoose on the off hand, pop a haste potion, recklessness, death wish and try not to cramp your hand mashing the execute button (it actually has happened before).
|
Originally Posted by Zalein
@Eledorian
1) Gimme your Soul Cleaver. 2) 4x slam, MS/WW simply means: MS -> Melee hit -> Slam -> WW -> Melee hit -> Slam 3) Swap out for two fast one handers at 20%, put executioner on one and mongoose on the off hand, pop a haste potion, recklessness, death wish and try not to cramp your hand mashing the execute button (it actually has happened before). |
Thanks for the advice I suppose I'll have a go at it tonight in Mount Hyjal.
Edit: Is there a certain point where I want to start casting Slam? I've heard people mention 0.5 seconds after the white hit lands to maximise dps.
Edited onPatch 2.3.0
As close as possiblie to the melee hit before the slam. If you hit it at the same time, it will hit 0.5 seconds into the melee swing timer which is the most efficient and therefore highest DPS. Of course, hitting it at the exact time the melee hits is essentially impossible due to lag, but as long as the slam hits within one second of your melee you're fine. That means you have an 0.5 second margin of error, including lag, which isn't much but possible to do nonetheless. Again, it requires a lot of concentration to keep it going every time with as little possible time between your melee and your slam but this is what you should aim for.
Wow Web Stats
That's from a few Teron attempts, though we haven't killed him yet due to people who are unable to kill ghosts, which is beyond me, btw. Most slams are hitting between 0.7s - 1.5s after the melee swing, which I'm content with, though there's room for improvement.
Oh and another note, I usually let my healers know that I'm popping recklessness since in fights like Teron you WILL need more healing.
Wow Web Stats
That's from a few Teron attempts, though we haven't killed him yet due to people who are unable to kill ghosts, which is beyond me, btw. Most slams are hitting between 0.7s - 1.5s after the melee swing, which I'm content with, though there's room for improvement.
Oh and another note, I usually let my healers know that I'm popping recklessness since in fights like Teron you WILL need more healing.
Last edited by Zalein : 11/27/07 at 6:46 AM.
I finally got a WWS log of the guild. Check this one and if you have any tips or any comments to make, I'll appreciate it =)
As my Armory shows, I still miss a few enchants and a good off-hand weapon(waiting for s3 weapon since it is the best Warglaives aside).
The Shaman was restoration specced and died at some point, then self-ressed, so we lost about half of a minute of his buffs.
Wow Web Stats
As my Armory shows, I still miss a few enchants and a good off-hand weapon(waiting for s3 weapon since it is the best Warglaives aside).
The Shaman was restoration specced and died at some point, then self-ressed, so we lost about half of a minute of his buffs.
Wow Web Stats
|
Originally Posted by Danath
I finally got a WWS log of the guild. Check this one and if you have any tips or any comments to make, I'll appreciate it =)
As my Armory shows, I still miss a few enchants and a good off-hand weapon(waiting for s3 weapon since it is the best Warglaives aside). The Shaman was restoration specced and died at some point, then self-ressed, so we lost about half of a minute of his buffs. Wow Web Stats |
|
Originally Posted by Eledorian
Looks to me like you rebuffed rampage alot for a 6minute fight. Maybe try rebuffing it when there's around 5-7 seconds left on the buff if you can, should save you rage for more heroic strikes.
|
Unluckily enough my guild doesn't have an Enhancement Shaman, they didn't even have a dedicated Fury Warrior before me and sometimes melee group doesn't get a shaman at all....They prefer to run with three rogues. Trying to search for some raw data showing how much of a DPS gain it is really for the whole group...Hopefully they will understand then.
By the way, I didn't have Greaves of the Bloodwarder in that fight(took them from her very dead corpse); I used Warbringer Greaves without the enchant before.
|
Originally Posted by Danath
That is true, i tend to rebuff it sooner than later but that is because I want to avoid some unlucky streak of chainmiss/dodge/glancing etc, anything that could lead me to temporarily lose the five stack. Maybe I should try and refresh it later.
Unluckily enough my guild doesn't have an Enhancement Shaman, they didn't even have a dedicated Fury Warrior before me and sometimes melee group doesn't get a shaman at all....They prefer to run with three rogues. Trying to search for some raw data showing how much of a DPS gain it is really for the whole group...Hopefully they will understand then. By the way, I didn't have Greaves of the Bloodwarder in that fight(took them from her very dead corpse); I used Warbringer Greaves without the enchant before. |
Week 1# Run your usual content without a shaman, log all the data and create a WWS report.
Week 2# Run the same content (and same group setup) with a shaman dropping WF, again log the data and create a WWS report.
Present results
It should show an average gain of 200dps for you atleast, and possibly something in the same direction for rogue's.
The difference between melee dps in week 1 and week 2 should be enough to prove a point.
|
Originally Posted by Eledorian
If I might make a suggestion to get you an enhancement shaman do the following.
Week 1# Run your usual content without a shaman, log all the data and create a WWS report. Week 2# Run the same content (and same group setup) with a shaman dropping WF, again log the data and create a WWS report. Present results It should show an average gain of 200dps for you atleast, and possibly something in the same direction for rogue's. The difference between melee dps in week 1 and week 2 should be enough to prove a point. |
And of course an Enhancement Shaman could provide an even greater benefit given Unleashed Rage, Imp SoE and Imp WF totem. Quite frankly the group would do a lot more total DPS than with a rogue, even if he has good gear.
Ohh, if only I could get Dragonspine Trophy...
To me it's staggering how much an enhancement shaman influences my DPS. I know it's more of a change for a 2h warrior but still... Going from 800-900 DPS to 1100-1200 is a huge dependency on another class.
Eledorian: http://www.honorbound.se/Slamdps2.pdf is still a very nice reference.
|
Originally Posted by Zalein
As close as possiblie to the melee hit before the slam.
|
|
Originally Posted by Amorpheus
Eledorian: http://www.honorbound.se/Slamdps2.pdf is still a very nice reference.
|
|
Originally Posted by stampy
Use a swing timer (quartz), or at the bare minimum watch for the white hit on SCTD or in a combat log. Don't go by the animation or by the floaty combat text over your targets head -- they look nice, but are crap for knowing when that instant that you actually "swing" is. At least on a tauren, the contact on the animation is a half second or more after the actual hit.
|
)I think I'll stick with this spec for a while though, it's certainly a change from 3xBT/2xWW -> HS, a lot more challenging to time slam to achieve higher dps.
|
Originally Posted by Zalein
To me it's staggering how much an enhancement shaman influences my DPS. I know it's more of a change for a 2h warrior but still... Going from 800-900 DPS to 1100-1200 is a huge dependency on another class.
|
Now the gain should be less evident in terms of DPS, it's a lot important for rage generation though.
Edited onPatch 2.3.0
|
Originally Posted by Danath
This was true pre-hotfix but now only auto-attacks and heroic strikes/cleaves proc Windfury, which actually favors Fury.
Now the gain should be less evident in terms of DPS, it's a lot important for rage generation though. |
Wow Web Stats
I just realized I'm missing with 9% hit flat. *gasp* I thought 9% was cap for 2h melee?!? *freaking out a bit*
Last edited by Zalein : 11/28/07 at 6:13 AM.
|
Originally Posted by Zalein
I just realized I'm missing with 9% hit flat. *gasp* I thought 9% was cap for 2h melee?!? *freaking out a bit*
|
Start at post 3093
Edited onPatch 2.3.0
Well, I don't know if I missed the post you meant, I looked around post 3093 and the following pages but they don't explain why I'm missing on the boss itself. Take a look here:
Wow Web Stats
Also on this page:
Zalein - WWS
If you expand the Damage Out section it you will see I have:
Miss Total: 15.8 %
Miss: 11 %
Parry: 1 %
Dodge: 3 %
Edit: I'm really starting to think I might have gone in with some wrong gear on me, 11% miss is insane. Grrr.
Wow Web Stats
Also on this page:
Zalein - WWS
If you expand the Damage Out section it you will see I have:
Miss Total: 15.8 %
Miss: 11 %
Parry: 1 %
Dodge: 3 %
Edit: I'm really starting to think I might have gone in with some wrong gear on me, 11% miss is insane.
Grrr.Last edited by Zalein : 11/28/07 at 8:31 AM.
Zalein I am no expert on WWS reports (I just look at pretty big numbers usually). Yet it looks like you switched over to DW for your execute spam. This would lead to a lot of attacks being made sub 20% and a reasonable amount missing which would skew your overall miss rate on melee to the high rate seen.
Ah, of course, you're right. Scared myself for a moment there.
Edited onPatch 2.3.0
So to continue my comparison of MS and fury post 2.3, I had a pretty good set of boss kills yesterday as MS which I think further reinforces my earlier point that MS is vastly superior to fury as the first or only dps warrior in a given raid.
Kaz'rogal: WWS
Anetheron (Slept twice): WWS
Teron Gorefiend: WWS
I'm interested to see if anybody has recorded attempts with higher dps on those bosses post wf/sword spec/dst nerfs, I certainly don't have the best possible gear but those beat my previous bests by a fair amount. I was using my current spec on the armory, and my gear was an optimal bt/hyjal ms setup.
Kaz'rogal: WWS
Anetheron (Slept twice): WWS
Teron Gorefiend: WWS
I'm interested to see if anybody has recorded attempts with higher dps on those bosses post wf/sword spec/dst nerfs, I certainly don't have the best possible gear but those beat my previous bests by a fair amount. I was using my current spec on the armory, and my gear was an optimal bt/hyjal ms setup.
Last edited by Modrack : 11/28/07 at 7:57 PM.
Edited onPatch 2.3.0
I guess id have to agree with you, MS is better for the raid. I did 1940 dps on Anetheron, I can post wws later if people need but it hasn't been posted on our forums yet, dunno why. Teron I got screwed over this week, but Ill try next week as 33/28. I would assume Id do about the same dps as Anetheron, 1900's. DW fury I did 2066 dps on him, so for the benafit of the raid, MS is better. Only problem is, I really find DW fury more fun in raids, but if it comes down to a fight like loathab in sunwell where we need all the dps we can get, 33/28 it is.
Also 2 questions for you Modrack. Since coming to Drow, it has for the most part been a very positive experience, except for the fact that they want the dps warrior to have improved demo to debuff, which I noticed you don't have to do. I know many guilds have the dps war do it, some don't. improved demo comes at the loss of UW, and having to spam it because its resist 1/2 the time hurts rotations. Since we are on farm now and blast through hyjal/bt they are letting me just go all out and dps on some bosses rather then help debuff. My question is, how do you get out of having to do that? a prot warrior with imp demo, or you just go completely without it?
2nd question makes me feel dumb because you must know something neither BT guild I've been in knows, but how are you avoiding Kaz'rogal's constant stuns? even standing max melee range Im getting hit by it. to do the same dps on him your doing on teron you must not be getting interupted at all.
Also 2 questions for you Modrack. Since coming to Drow, it has for the most part been a very positive experience, except for the fact that they want the dps warrior to have improved demo to debuff, which I noticed you don't have to do. I know many guilds have the dps war do it, some don't. improved demo comes at the loss of UW, and having to spam it because its resist 1/2 the time hurts rotations. Since we are on farm now and blast through hyjal/bt they are letting me just go all out and dps on some bosses rather then help debuff. My question is, how do you get out of having to do that? a prot warrior with imp demo, or you just go completely without it?
2nd question makes me feel dumb because you must know something neither BT guild I've been in knows, but how are you avoiding Kaz'rogal's constant stuns? even standing max melee range Im getting hit by it. to do the same dps on him your doing on teron you must not be getting interupted at all.
Last edited by Cruor : 11/29/07 at 4:10 AM.
Well since we are on the topic, as for the future of the DPS warrior, should MS do more for a raid than Fury? If, and I havent yet seen a WWS with both MS and Fury so I wont claim to know, MS does more damage and brings blood frenzy, what should the role of fury be? Its a lot less defined what direction the trees are taking. Not so much in terms of getting raid spots, but in definition.
|
Originally Posted by Cruor
Also 2 questions for you Modrack. Since coming to Drow, it has for the most part been a very positive experience, except for the fact that they want the dps warrior to have improved demo to debuff, which I noticed you don't have to do. I know many guilds have the dps war do it, some don't. improved demo comes at the loss of UW, and having to spam it because its resist 1/2 the time hurts rotations. Since we are on farm now and blast through hyjal/bt they are letting me just go all out and dps on some bosses rather then help debuff. My question is, how do you get out of having to do that? a prot warrior with imp demo, or you just go completely without it?
2nd question makes me feel dumb because you must know something neither BT guild I've been in knows, but how are you avoiding Kaz'rogal's constant stuns? even standing max melee range Im getting hit by it. to do the same dps on him your doing on teron you must not be getting interupted at all. |
2. He's a cheap, overpowered Tauren.
Someone mentioned earlier in this thread that swapping for 2 fast weapons for execute period is an option for MS warriors. Anyone got any experience (wws) on that? I've been avoiding execute at all (except during recklessness), as I don't have neither improved execute or the t6 bonus. In any case, it'll be testing it and posting my own WWS afterwards.
|
Originally Posted by Zadus
So I went to Maxdps.com and i input my stats for my fury warrior. What puzzled me is it said the third best mh in the game for me is talon of the phoenix. It says it produces better dps than a dragonstrike, syphon, rising tide. The only better mh's in the game it says are any of the s3 mh's or the warglaives. Thoughts opinions on this?
I even changed alot of stats around because i figured ok maybe its favoring hit. So i put my hit at 300 and it still said it was the third best mh in the game. |
I did this on our last (and only thus far) Teron kill. Here are the splits, although they are not exact, it's a fair estimate. I don't have improved execute or T6 2 piece bonus.
100% - 20% (1335 DPS) - Wow Web Stats
20% - 0% (1907 DPS) - Wow Web Stats
While we're on the subject, is there a way to split a report between exact seconds instead of the predefined splits given by WWS? If I could start counting from my first execute to 0% the DPS would be higher, I'm sure, since with the predefined splits, I don't have my recklessness/death wish/trinket/haste potion phase in there.
100% - 20% (1335 DPS) - Wow Web Stats
20% - 0% (1907 DPS) - Wow Web Stats
While we're on the subject, is there a way to split a report between exact seconds instead of the predefined splits given by WWS? If I could start counting from my first execute to 0% the DPS would be higher, I'm sure, since with the predefined splits, I don't have my recklessness/death wish/trinket/haste potion phase in there.
Do Hyjal/BT bosses all simply have much less AC then the bosses in the previous zones or is it just that the large majority of the encounters in those zones do not have much downtime on the bosses like many fights in SSC/TK? We ran SSC last night to get a vial for a newer member, and I was expecting to see higher overall DPS than what I had been doing before we were all attuned for BT. On the average Hyjal/BT boss I sit at around 1550 DPS, some up to 2150 (as 17/44) and we don't do Bloodlust rotations and normally use a 3x Rogue, War, Enh Shaman group. The WWS from SSC was a little underwhelming, but I can only attribute it to all of the time you are actually not able to hit a boss.
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Originally Posted by Zalein
I did this on our last (and only thus far) Teron kill. Here are the splits, although they are not exact, it's a fair estimate. I don't have improved execute or T6 2 piece bonus.
100% - 20% (1335 DPS) - Wow Web Stats 20% - 0% (1907 DPS) - Wow Web Stats |
On another note. How does 2/2 BF and 3/5 Flurry compare to straight 5/5 Flurry for personal DPS, assuming you're the only one with BF? It seems to me that they are very close, and there should be no reason to go 5/5 Flurry at all.
| What kind of buffs did you have while executing? Because it lasted only 38 seconds chances are that you had a much higher buff uptime on critical buffs like DW, heroism (and possibly Recklessness and Haste potion). It's hard to tell from the WWS, tho. |
| On another note. How does 2/2 BF and 3/5 Flurry compare to straight 5/5 Flurry for personal DPS, assuming you're the only one with BF? It seems to me that they are very close, and there should be no reason to go 5/5 Flurry at all. |
Edited onPatch 2.3.0
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Originally Posted by Modrack
I'm interested to see if anybody has recorded attempts with higher dps on those bosses post wf/sword spec/dst nerfs, I certainly don't have the best possible gear but those beat my previous bests by a fair amount. I was using my current spec on the armory, and my gear was an optimal bt/hyjal ms setup.
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Yet, last night on Gorefiend I only did 1300 dps - with flask and food. I can only conclude that i'm doing something wrong.
Here is my armory, which shows me in PvP gear for some reason.
Here is a WWS of Gorefiend from last night.
I realise that I failed to use Bloodlust Brooch entirely (duh) and used Death Wish too late to use it again sub 20%, but I find it difficult to believe that those two factors alone can be responsible for a 300+ dps deficit. Another MS warrior in my guild has hit 1600 on Gorefiend (without Slam). That's where *I* want to be, but it's just not happening. He, like Modrack, has 4pc T6 and Cataclysm's Edge, but again, I can't see this attributable to 350 AC pent and sword specialization.
Can anyone see what I might be able to do to improve?
Last edited by Charsi : 11/29/07 at 10:38 AM.
Modrack uses slam and sword spec. That makes all the difference. Don't underestimate sword spec; with WF on top you get a huge increase of damage. I noticed a lot when I went from Stormherald to Zul'jin's sword. Other than this, I don't know what to tell you. Don't use HS unless the next white hit will tip you over 100 rage, I guess, but I doubt rage is a problem without using slam.
Edited onPatch 2.3.0
I am specced into Improved Slam and have used it on prior attempts (where I get roughly the same DPS, although I got three significant upgrades since last reset: T6 chest, Pauldrons, and Executioner enchant). This week was more or less an experiment in not using Slam, largely because my guildmate doesn't use it and pulls down very strong dps on virtually every fight.
He also suggested that i'm overusing HS, so I will try and clear that up. I would take a Cataclysm's Edge in a heartbeat if it dropped.
Edit: typically our Shaman pop heroism at 19% which ruins any slam rotation that I try at that point, since my weapon speed drops into the low 2.x's. I have considered a weapon swap (TF/Swiftsteel) for execute range with Recklessness, I get a lot of white misses but can easily execute on every gcd. I didn't try it last night at all though.
Criticism of my consumable use is more than fair, I forgot my haste pots in the mail and changed my bloodlust brooch bind
He also suggested that i'm overusing HS, so I will try and clear that up. I would take a Cataclysm's Edge in a heartbeat if it dropped.
Edit: typically our Shaman pop heroism at 19% which ruins any slam rotation that I try at that point, since my weapon speed drops into the low 2.x's. I have considered a weapon swap (TF/Swiftsteel) for execute range with Recklessness, I get a lot of white misses but can easily execute on every gcd. I didn't try it last night at all though.
Criticism of my consumable use is more than fair, I forgot my haste pots in the mail and changed my bloodlust brooch bind
Last edited by Charsi : 11/29/07 at 11:28 AM.
I see three main differences:
1. You didn't have a feral druid with imp LotP, whereas the previous WWS did. +5% crit makes a BIG difference in not just damage, but rage gain also.
2. Consumable / item / ability use. The previous WWS used insane strength pot iirc? Also times deathwish & trinkets well.
3. Executes. The previous WWS, he only hit execute once. With the level of gear we have, spamming execute with your 2-hander is a REDUCTION in dps from your slam rotation. If you switch to dual-wielding a couple of quick weapons, and hit recklessness, then yeah, execute might be worth it, but not by much.
1. You didn't have a feral druid with imp LotP, whereas the previous WWS did. +5% crit makes a BIG difference in not just damage, but rage gain also.
2. Consumable / item / ability use. The previous WWS used insane strength pot iirc? Also times deathwish & trinkets well.
3. Executes. The previous WWS, he only hit execute once. With the level of gear we have, spamming execute with your 2-hander is a REDUCTION in dps from your slam rotation. If you switch to dual-wielding a couple of quick weapons, and hit recklessness, then yeah, execute might be worth it, but not by much.
Quoting myself on the execute deal:
Granted my gear is crap compared to what you guys have, I just got into BT 2 weeks ago, so execute might be more viable for me than it is for you.
What rotation do you use when you do use Slam Charsi?
Melee -> Slam -> MS -> Melee -> Slam -> WW is what I use and I have to be very strict about it to keep up good DPS. On the third rotation when both MS and WW are on CD, I use BS or demo shout normally. Then back to MS.
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Originally Posted by Zalein
I did this on our last (and only thus far) Teron kill. Here are the splits, although they are not exact, it's a fair estimate. I don't have improved execute or T6 2 piece bonus.
100% - 20% (1335 DPS) - Wow Web Stats 20% - 0% (1907 DPS) - Wow Web Stats While we're on the subject, is there a way to split a report between exact seconds instead of the predefined splits given by WWS? If I could start counting from my first execute to 0% the DPS would be higher, I'm sure, since with the predefined splits, I don't have my recklessness/death wish/trinket/haste potion phase in there. |
Granted my gear is crap compared to what you guys have, I just got into BT 2 weeks ago, so execute might be more viable for me than it is for you.
What rotation do you use when you do use Slam Charsi?
Melee -> Slam -> MS -> Melee -> Slam -> WW is what I use and I have to be very strict about it to keep up good DPS. On the third rotation when both MS and WW are on CD, I use BS or demo shout normally. Then back to MS.
Edited onPatch 2.3.0
more information
white > slam > instant > white, the instants being ms, ww, ms, free (usually refresh demo)
I don't play with high latency and tend not to flub my slams all that much, if anything I swing a little late rather than too early and clip off the white hit. I tend to revert to MS/WW/HS when Heroism'd.
Edit: I have Quartz
Edit #2: Here's a week ago, Teron with Slam. Note my gear is different in that. Didn't have T6 chest (Bulwark of Ancient Kings), didn't have Bloodstained Pauldrons (T5), so I was wearing Hourglass over Bloodlust for the sake of crit rating, which was probably dumb. Also had Savagery on my mace at that time. To make matters worse I think our Enhancement Shaman was away that night. Doing 1265 with a resto Shaman and sans about four gear changes makes me feel even worse about barely breaking 1300 this week.
I don't play with high latency and tend not to flub my slams all that much, if anything I swing a little late rather than too early and clip off the white hit. I tend to revert to MS/WW/HS when Heroism'd.
Edit: I have Quartz
Edit #2: Here's a week ago, Teron with Slam. Note my gear is different in that. Didn't have T6 chest (Bulwark of Ancient Kings), didn't have Bloodstained Pauldrons (T5), so I was wearing Hourglass over Bloodlust for the sake of crit rating, which was probably dumb. Also had Savagery on my mace at that time. To make matters worse I think our Enhancement Shaman was away that night. Doing 1265 with a resto Shaman and sans about four gear changes makes me feel even worse about barely breaking 1300 this week.
Last edited by Charsi : 11/29/07 at 12:59 PM.
Edited onPatch 2.3.0
In response to Charsi, several things stand out:
1. Gear differences. Mace spec is virtually useless for raids as I'm sure you're aware (good luck on getting Cataclysm to drop again soon), and the Torch has haste on it which is a very low valued stat. The differences in weapon spec are probably negligible in this specific comparison though because I only got 3 sword spec procs on the Teron attempt in question. So the only real differences are haste on the mace and higher weapon dps from Cataclysm being 10 ilevels higher. Aside from that, I run 4pc t6, so in the same number of mortal strikes (22), I did 64k damage versus your 50k. This is also partially attributable to my having lotp as I critted two more than you.
2. Spec differences. Most notably, you have points in imp intercept against my points in imp disciplines (2/3), and 4 extra seconds on recklessness can make a big difference. Aside from that as you mentioned you're specced into slam but did not use it, and I can almost certainly assure you that using slam will be a large increase in damage. Especially with a 3.8 speed weapon, there should be no problems with timing.
3. Raid differences and other factors. The biggest difference between our parses that I can see is that your teron kill appears to last about a minute longer than mine, or about 33% more combat time. This will significantly reduce your reported dps. Less time on the kill means a higher percentage of my combat time is spent with some kind of timer or cooldown up, be it bloodlust or potion or deathwish or recklessness or trinkets or any combination thereof. You may also want to check on little things like faerie fire and curse of recklessness always being up. Also, the unsung hero of other factors, luck may have played a part. I've done 1950 dps on Teron as fury and then come back the next week and done 1650 without changing anything up or making any mistakes. It looks like the only place you really got unlucky was with heroic strikes, and as has been stated heroic strikes are basically already a waste of rage, and with an 18% crit rate like you had they can just kill your dps.
On another note, execute is not at all a waste. I used one insane strength pot on my Teron log at the beginning of the fight because it's the best option I think while continuing to slam. At the end of the fight I used deathwish, recklessness, and a haste pot and got a pretty amazing dps boost (I generally try to use haste pots during bloodlust and/or execute spam when I'm not slamming, and if I have insane strength I use it in a rare situation like this where I can drop a pot cooldown and know that I won't be getting bloodlust). Now, I don't spam execute, I give mortal strike and usually whirlwind priority if I have rage, but if they're on cooldown or I only get 20 or so rage per round I'll execute. I only had 1 execute "hit" on my Teron log, but I had 7 crits. I keep forgetting to bring my two swiftsteel bludgeons while raiding as MS to see how much of a difference it makes <20%, but I have a hard time using non swords as a sword spec. Not that it would've mattered much this time I guess since I got three fucking sword spec procs.
Anyway I hope that helps, and good luck with your weapon drops and future ms dps. In response to Cruorr I definitely understand enjoying fury more than ms, but I think on my part it comes down to laziness. Keeping up solid slam rotations with dst and cataclysm's edge can be a challenge sometimes, but all in all I think ms can be more entertaining, and as the numbers show there's really no comparison between the overall raid dps contributed by ms vs fury.
1. Gear differences. Mace spec is virtually useless for raids as I'm sure you're aware (good luck on getting Cataclysm to drop again soon), and the Torch has haste on it which is a very low valued stat. The differences in weapon spec are probably negligible in this specific comparison though because I only got 3 sword spec procs on the Teron attempt in question. So the only real differences are haste on the mace and higher weapon dps from Cataclysm being 10 ilevels higher. Aside from that, I run 4pc t6, so in the same number of mortal strikes (22), I did 64k damage versus your 50k. This is also partially attributable to my having lotp as I critted two more than you.
2. Spec differences. Most notably, you have points in imp intercept against my points in imp disciplines (2/3), and 4 extra seconds on recklessness can make a big difference. Aside from that as you mentioned you're specced into slam but did not use it, and I can almost certainly assure you that using slam will be a large increase in damage. Especially with a 3.8 speed weapon, there should be no problems with timing.
3. Raid differences and other factors. The biggest difference between our parses that I can see is that your teron kill appears to last about a minute longer than mine, or about 33% more combat time. This will significantly reduce your reported dps. Less time on the kill means a higher percentage of my combat time is spent with some kind of timer or cooldown up, be it bloodlust or potion or deathwish or recklessness or trinkets or any combination thereof. You may also want to check on little things like faerie fire and curse of recklessness always being up. Also, the unsung hero of other factors, luck may have played a part. I've done 1950 dps on Teron as fury and then come back the next week and done 1650 without changing anything up or making any mistakes. It looks like the only place you really got unlucky was with heroic strikes, and as has been stated heroic strikes are basically already a waste of rage, and with an 18% crit rate like you had they can just kill your dps.
On another note, execute is not at all a waste. I used one insane strength pot on my Teron log at the beginning of the fight because it's the best option I think while continuing to slam. At the end of the fight I used deathwish, recklessness, and a haste pot and got a pretty amazing dps boost (I generally try to use haste pots during bloodlust and/or execute spam when I'm not slamming, and if I have insane strength I use it in a rare situation like this where I can drop a pot cooldown and know that I won't be getting bloodlust). Now, I don't spam execute, I give mortal strike and usually whirlwind priority if I have rage, but if they're on cooldown or I only get 20 or so rage per round I'll execute. I only had 1 execute "hit" on my Teron log, but I had 7 crits. I keep forgetting to bring my two swiftsteel bludgeons while raiding as MS to see how much of a difference it makes <20%, but I have a hard time using non swords as a sword spec. Not that it would've mattered much this time I guess since I got three fucking sword spec procs.
Anyway I hope that helps, and good luck with your weapon drops and future ms dps. In response to Cruorr I definitely understand enjoying fury more than ms, but I think on my part it comes down to laziness. Keeping up solid slam rotations with dst and cataclysm's edge can be a challenge sometimes, but all in all I think ms can be more entertaining, and as the numbers show there's really no comparison between the overall raid dps contributed by ms vs fury.
Last edited by Modrack : 11/29/07 at 5:30 PM.
Hrm, running out of ideas... Using a swing timer add on?
I'm afraid this is another 'what am I doing wrong?' post. I've read up carefully on my fury theorycrafting, have had quite a bit of practice and use the spreadsheet. However, having just read of warriors doing some 1500dps (sustained) on Gorefiend as Arms I wonder why I'm no where near that as fury on SSC bosses. This is the link to my guild's WWS from last night's Morogrim fight: Loading... although it includes all the other bosses bar Vashj as well. I chose this because all I did was attack without moving for 10 mins or so. I can't give a direct armoury link because it doesn't appear to be up atm.
I was keeping up demo shout and sunder armour (no useful warrs around), and certainly I was skimping on the haste pots, but otherwise I'm not sure what to complain about. Group set up perphaps - I only had a LW rogue and a Feral Druid. Am I missing something fundamental here, or do I just need more gear/consumables? My dps isn't out of line with the rest of my guild, but I suspect 847dps isn't what I should be doing. I've only broken 1000dps with an ench. shammie.
Another important question. How much to people find that the DPS they output in game differs from what the spreadsheet says? If so, by how much? It's hardly fair for me to use myself as evidence given I'm concerned with what I'm outputting anyone, but I've never been at what the spreadsheet suggets.
I was keeping up demo shout and sunder armour (no useful warrs around), and certainly I was skimping on the haste pots, but otherwise I'm not sure what to complain about. Group set up perphaps - I only had a LW rogue and a Feral Druid. Am I missing something fundamental here, or do I just need more gear/consumables? My dps isn't out of line with the rest of my guild, but I suspect 847dps isn't what I should be doing. I've only broken 1000dps with an ench. shammie.
Another important question. How much to people find that the DPS they output in game differs from what the spreadsheet says? If so, by how much? It's hardly fair for me to use myself as evidence given I'm concerned with what I'm outputting anyone, but I've never been at what the spreadsheet suggets.
a few things for maxing dps, Ive seen the execute lowering dps thing a lot, this is crazy... reck/haste pot/12 rage executes are huge. Also, for maxing dps, you need to work with your grp. Almost every dps in our guild is now going leather working for haste drums... when you have that up 100% of fights its big. You need to work with your shaman. Get him to do hero when its good for you, so you can have death wish up while hero is up.
Edited onPatch 2.3.0
Sorry if this is stated somewhere, but I've searched the forums and haven't been able to find:
Which sharpening stone should I use on my off-hand? Adamantite (12 weapon damage, 14 crit rating) or Elemental (28 crit rating). My off-hand is 1.5 speed.
I've seen many use Adamantite but from a number of sources I've heard/read that the Elemental results in more dps, which is easily possible, as an additional 14 crit rating affects main hand white as well as yellow damage, and the offhand does a small portion (38%) of an already small portion (40-50%) of a warrior's total damage.
Is there a point at which one stone is better than the other, or is one better than the other pretty much all of the time? Thanks.
Which sharpening stone should I use on my off-hand? Adamantite (12 weapon damage, 14 crit rating) or Elemental (28 crit rating). My off-hand is 1.5 speed.
I've seen many use Adamantite but from a number of sources I've heard/read that the Elemental results in more dps, which is easily possible, as an additional 14 crit rating affects main hand white as well as yellow damage, and the offhand does a small portion (38%) of an already small portion (40-50%) of a warrior's total damage.
Is there a point at which one stone is better than the other, or is one better than the other pretty much all of the time? Thanks.
Last edited by Lapp : 11/29/07 at 6:07 PM.
Edited onPatch 2.3.0
Cataclysm's just dropped for us last night (armory hasn't updated in over 24 hours for some reason) and I picked it up to have a better PvP weapon than what I had been using (Trollbane). I specced 33/28 from my normal 17/44 and did similar DPS as to what I had been doing before, but could have probably done even better if I had been timing slams better (didn't really get it down good until Teron). Ended up doing 1682 (War/Sham/Rogue x3) on Teron without any haste potions and I didn't bother trying to switch to two fast one handers with only a 9% hit rating for Executes. Execute doesn't seem to be a waste at all on Teron with a 2h, especially when you almost always have enough rage (more than enough) to hit it every, or near every global with Bloodlust going. With Bloodlust and DST active, trying to do the typical Slam rotation seems to just be more of a waste than mashing Execute on that fight. It would be even harder with a haste pot active.
Missing a Slam due to a Flurry or DST proc annoys me to no end, as does having to use a 50 - 100 rage Execute on a mob that keeps being yanked away right when a Slam is about to hit. I don't particularly care for it, it's just a change of pace for now, but I can quickly see myself getting sick of it on raids. I also don't plan on seeking out pure 2h optimal gear when I am doing Arena for 2x 1h weapons. I'd have to see some very convincing evidence that BF is adding enough of a boost to *our* raids for me to consider it worth the annoyance factor of this spec. Teron is really a poor fight to base the Arms vs Fury argument on anyway due to how much rage you get from it. I noticed a significant drop on Najentus and Bloodboil, while our Rogues and Hunter seemed to be doing the same they always do. Shade and Teron saw an extremely minor personal boost and again, our Rogues and Hunter seemed to be doing the same as before.
| I definitely understand enjoying fury more than ms, but I think on my part it comes down to laziness. Keeping up solid slam rotations with dst and cataclysm's edge can be a challenge sometimes, but all in all I think ms can be more entertaining, and as the numbers show there's really no comparison between the overall raid dps contributed by ms vs fury. |
Last edited by Graul : 11/30/07 at 1:54 AM.
Edited onPatch 2.3.0
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Originally Posted by Modrack
So to continue my comparison of MS and fury post 2.3, I had a pretty good set of boss kills yesterday as MS which I think further reinforces my earlier point that MS is vastly superior to fury as the first or only dps warrior in a given raid.
Kaz'rogal: WWS Anetheron (Slept twice): WWS Teron Gorefiend: WWS I'm interested to see if anybody has recorded attempts with higher dps on those bosses post wf/sword spec/dst nerfs, I certainly don't have the best possible gear but those beat my previous bests by a fair amount. I was using my current spec on the armory, and my gear was an optimal bt/hyjal ms setup. |
We had no blood frenzy, but did have lotp and UR.Teron Gorefiend - 2351 dps
Last edited by Kupeludo : 11/30/07 at 2:03 AM.
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Originally Posted by Kupeludo
I'm not sure how he did it, I think he hacks, anyways I'm also there doing good I guess, would have been better if I got to execute, damn ghosts.
We had no blood frenzy, but did have lotp and UR.Teron Gorefiend - 2351 dps |
Also he has more armor penetration then you have. He used recklessness.
I think those are the main reasons.
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Originally Posted by King Brasidas
I'm afraid this is another 'what am I doing wrong?' post. I've read up carefully on my fury theorycrafting, have had quite a bit of practice and use the spreadsheet. However, having just read of warriors doing some 1500dps (sustained) on Gorefiend as Arms I wonder why I'm no where near that as fury on SSC bosses. This is the link to my guild's WWS from last night's Morogrim fight: Loading... although it includes all the other bosses bar Vashj as well. I chose this because all I did was attack without moving for 10 mins or so. I can't give a direct armoury link because it doesn't appear to be up atm.
I was keeping up demo shout and sunder armour (no useful warrs around), and certainly I was skimping on the haste pots, but otherwise I'm not sure what to complain about. Group set up perphaps - I only had a LW rogue and a Feral Druid. Am I missing something fundamental here, or do I just need more gear/consumables? My dps isn't out of line with the rest of my guild, but I suspect 847dps isn't what I should be doing. I've only broken 1000dps with an ench. shammie. Another important question. How much to people find that the DPS they output in game differs from what the spreadsheet says? If so, by how much? It's hardly fair for me to use myself as evidence given I'm concerned with what I'm outputting anyone, but I've never been at what the spreadsheet suggets. |
Spreadsheet dps is always higher than the dps in game. For me it's about 20% (up to 40% if I'm slacking) off as DW fury. Not sure why, maybe I'm overusing HS but it feels like I can do BT/WW whenever up. Don't use the spreadsheet to model "true dps", that is not what it's meant for. You should only use it to compare gear setups, and to calculate accurate SEP values. It can possibly also be used to compare minor talent changes, but certainly not to compare arms and fury specs.
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Originally Posted by King Brasidas
I'm afraid this is another 'what am I doing wrong?' post. I've read up carefully on my fury theorycrafting, have had quite a bit of practice and use the spreadsheet. However, having just read of warriors doing some 1500dps (sustained) on Gorefiend as Arms I wonder why I'm no where near that as fury on SSC bosses. This is the link to my guild's WWS from last night's Morogrim fight: Loading... although it includes all the other bosses bar Vashj as well. I chose this because all I did was attack without moving for 10 mins or so. I can't give a direct armoury link because it doesn't appear to be up atm.
I was keeping up demo shout and sunder armour (no useful warrs around), and certainly I was skimping on the haste pots, but otherwise I'm not sure what to complain about. Group set up perphaps - I only had a LW rogue and a Feral Druid. Am I missing something fundamental here, or do I just need more gear/consumables? My dps isn't out of line with the rest of my guild, but I suspect 847dps isn't what I should be doing. I've only broken 1000dps with an ench. shammie. Another important question. How much to people find that the DPS they output in game differs from what the spreadsheet says? If so, by how much? It's hardly fair for me to use myself as evidence given I'm concerned with what I'm outputting anyone, but I've never been at what the spreadsheet suggets. |
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Originally Posted by Gruntle
Well, I'm not sure but won't the stance switches (to keep up the sunders) play havoc with your rage generation and slam cycles? I'd guess that you could lose 10-20% personal dps from this only. Also, you need WF to get the really high dps. I don't really think you can expect more than 850 without WF and having to stanceswitch.
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Originally Posted by Shini
You can sunder in berserker stance.
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Edited onPatch 2.3.0
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Originally Posted by Graul
The average I do in Hyjal/BT now is 1550 on most fights. We just did SSC the other night and my damage was much lower than in the other zones.
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Now as I nicely reminded by a fire in the hall of heroes that effects that dont crit can still proc things that proc on crits like enrage and blood frenzy. I thought I saw enrage pop up on morogrim after a earthquake but it may have just been a murloc. Was I mistaken or is there free damage and healing to be found wearing pvp gear on fights where you mey get hit a lot. I doubt its much of an effect in the long run, and you may be wearing it anyway for those fights just for the stam.
Last edited by Machinator : 11/30/07 at 9:39 AM.
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Originally Posted by Machinator
Well I noticed that from the Raid Boss Armor thread that most of SSC has more armor than bosses in hyjal. That may account for part of it if you havent changed gear/groups.
Now as I nicely reminded by a fire in the hall of heroes that effects that dont crit can still proc things that proc on crits like enrage and blood frenzy. I thought I saw enrage pop up on morogrim after a earthquake but it may have just been a murloc. Was I mistaken or is there free damage and healing to be found wearing pvp gear on fights where you mey get hit a lot. I doubt its much of an effect in the long run, and you may be wearing it anyway for those fights just for the stam. |
Also, I do recall proccing Enrage on the fire in the Org BG queue room.
| Missing a Slam due to a Flurry or DST proc annoys me to no end, as does having to use a 50 - 100 rage Execute on a mob that keeps being yanked away right when a Slam is about to hit. I don't particularly care for it, it's just a change of pace for now, but I can quickly see myself getting sick of it on raids. |
Edited onPatch 2.3.0
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Originally Posted by Modrack
So to continue my comparison of MS and fury post 2.3, I had a pretty good set of boss kills yesterday as MS which I think further reinforces my earlier point that MS is vastly superior to fury as the first or only dps warrior in a given raid.
Kaz'rogal: WWS Anetheron (Slept twice): WWS Teron Gorefiend: WWS I'm interested to see if anybody has recorded attempts with higher dps on those bosses post wf/sword spec/dst nerfs, I certainly don't have the best possible gear but those beat my previous bests by a fair amount. I was using my current spec on the armory, and my gear was an optimal bt/hyjal ms setup. |
I had LOTP and an enhancement Shaman. No BF or Expose in the raid. We do have a Ret Pal though.
Anetheron (slept just once) 1891 DPS
Kaz'rogal 1952 DPS
Gorefiend 2077 DPS
My gear is very solid. Cloak, ring, ranged slot upgrades are out there for me, but they are minor. OH Warglaive would obviously give me a big boost, and if I was shooting for personal DPS I could rep Solarian's. But overall I have very good gear, I certainly cant complain.
So, yeah pretty disappointing comparison to yours. You did better on 2 of the 3 and on Gorefiend, it was very close. Lets assume its a wash on personal DPS...you are throwing a 4% buff to all physical DPS...in my raid that would be a lot more total damage. The Future of a Fury DPS Warrior is bleak unless something changes. There is no reason to take Fury over Arms with the first DPS Warrior, and if you are building a raid (or guild) from the ground up, is there room for two+ DPS Warriors? I suspect all the Fury Warriors that are flourishing in endgame PVE guilds are people that have been around a long while or in leadership positions.
Last edited by Hozz : 11/30/07 at 11:47 AM. Reason: More stuff
Do Hyjal/BT bosses all simply have much less AC then the bosses in the previous zones or is it just that the large majority of the encounters in those zones do not have much downtime on the bosses like many fights in SSC/TK? We ran SSC last night to get a vial for a newer member, and I was expecting to see higher overall DPS than what I had been doing before we were all attuned for BT. On the average Hyjal/BT boss I sit at around 1550 DPS, some up to 2150 (as 17/44) and we don't do Bloodlust rotations and normally use a 3x Rogue, War, Enh Shaman group. The WWS from SSC was a little underwhelming, but I can only attribute it to all of the time you are actually not able to hit a boss.
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Originally Posted by Zalein
I did this on our last (and only thus far) Teron kill. Here are the splits, although they are not exact, it's a fair estimate. I don't have improved execute or T6 2 piece bonus.
100% - 20% (1335 DPS) - Wow Web Stats 20% - 0% (1907 DPS) - Wow Web Stats |
On another note. How does 2/2 BF and 3/5 Flurry compare to straight 5/5 Flurry for personal DPS, assuming you're the only one with BF? It seems to me that they are very close, and there should be no reason to go 5/5 Flurry at all.
| What kind of buffs did you have while executing? Because it lasted only 38 seconds chances are that you had a much higher buff uptime on critical buffs like DW, heroism (and possibly Recklessness and Haste potion). It's hard to tell from the WWS, tho. |
| On another note. How does 2/2 BF and 3/5 Flurry compare to straight 5/5 Flurry for personal DPS, assuming you're the only one with BF? It seems to me that they are very close, and there should be no reason to go 5/5 Flurry at all. |
Edited onPatch 2.3.0
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Originally Posted by Modrack
I'm interested to see if anybody has recorded attempts with higher dps on those bosses post wf/sword spec/dst nerfs, I certainly don't have the best possible gear but those beat my previous bests by a fair amount. I was using my current spec on the armory, and my gear was an optimal bt/hyjal ms setup.
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Yet, last night on Gorefiend I only did 1300 dps - with flask and food. I can only conclude that i'm doing something wrong.
Here is my armory, which shows me in PvP gear for some reason.
Here is a WWS of Gorefiend from last night.
I realise that I failed to use Bloodlust Brooch entirely (duh) and used Death Wish too late to use it again sub 20%, but I find it difficult to believe that those two factors alone can be responsible for a 300+ dps deficit. Another MS warrior in my guild has hit 1600 on Gorefiend (without Slam). That's where *I* want to be, but it's just not happening. He, like Modrack, has 4pc T6 and Cataclysm's Edge, but again, I can't see this attributable to 350 AC pent and sword specialization.
Can anyone see what I might be able to do to improve?
Last edited by Charsi : 11/29/07 at 10:38 AM.
Modrack uses slam and sword spec. That makes all the difference. Don't underestimate sword spec; with WF on top you get a huge increase of damage. I noticed a lot when I went from Stormherald to Zul'jin's sword. Other than this, I don't know what to tell you. Don't use HS unless the next white hit will tip you over 100 rage, I guess, but I doubt rage is a problem without using slam.
Edited onPatch 2.3.0
I am specced into Improved Slam and have used it on prior attempts (where I get roughly the same DPS, although I got three significant upgrades since last reset: T6 chest, Pauldrons, and Executioner enchant). This week was more or less an experiment in not using Slam, largely because my guildmate doesn't use it and pulls down very strong dps on virtually every fight.
He also suggested that i'm overusing HS, so I will try and clear that up. I would take a Cataclysm's Edge in a heartbeat if it dropped.
Edit: typically our Shaman pop heroism at 19% which ruins any slam rotation that I try at that point, since my weapon speed drops into the low 2.x's. I have considered a weapon swap (TF/Swiftsteel) for execute range with Recklessness, I get a lot of white misses but can easily execute on every gcd. I didn't try it last night at all though.
Criticism of my consumable use is more than fair, I forgot my haste pots in the mail and changed my bloodlust brooch bind
He also suggested that i'm overusing HS, so I will try and clear that up. I would take a Cataclysm's Edge in a heartbeat if it dropped.
Edit: typically our Shaman pop heroism at 19% which ruins any slam rotation that I try at that point, since my weapon speed drops into the low 2.x's. I have considered a weapon swap (TF/Swiftsteel) for execute range with Recklessness, I get a lot of white misses but can easily execute on every gcd. I didn't try it last night at all though.
Criticism of my consumable use is more than fair, I forgot my haste pots in the mail and changed my bloodlust brooch bind
Last edited by Charsi : 11/29/07 at 11:28 AM.
I see three main differences:
1. You didn't have a feral druid with imp LotP, whereas the previous WWS did. +5% crit makes a BIG difference in not just damage, but rage gain also.
2. Consumable / item / ability use. The previous WWS used insane strength pot iirc? Also times deathwish & trinkets well.
3. Executes. The previous WWS, he only hit execute once. With the level of gear we have, spamming execute with your 2-hander is a REDUCTION in dps from your slam rotation. If you switch to dual-wielding a couple of quick weapons, and hit recklessness, then yeah, execute might be worth it, but not by much.
1. You didn't have a feral druid with imp LotP, whereas the previous WWS did. +5% crit makes a BIG difference in not just damage, but rage gain also.
2. Consumable / item / ability use. The previous WWS used insane strength pot iirc? Also times deathwish & trinkets well.
3. Executes. The previous WWS, he only hit execute once. With the level of gear we have, spamming execute with your 2-hander is a REDUCTION in dps from your slam rotation. If you switch to dual-wielding a couple of quick weapons, and hit recklessness, then yeah, execute might be worth it, but not by much.
Quoting myself on the execute deal:
Granted my gear is crap compared to what you guys have, I just got into BT 2 weeks ago, so execute might be more viable for me than it is for you.
What rotation do you use when you do use Slam Charsi?
Melee -> Slam -> MS -> Melee -> Slam -> WW is what I use and I have to be very strict about it to keep up good DPS. On the third rotation when both MS and WW are on CD, I use BS or demo shout normally. Then back to MS.
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Originally Posted by Zalein
I did this on our last (and only thus far) Teron kill. Here are the splits, although they are not exact, it's a fair estimate. I don't have improved execute or T6 2 piece bonus.
100% - 20% (1335 DPS) - Wow Web Stats 20% - 0% (1907 DPS) - Wow Web Stats While we're on the subject, is there a way to split a report between exact seconds instead of the predefined splits given by WWS? If I could start counting from my first execute to 0% the DPS would be higher, I'm sure, since with the predefined splits, I don't have my recklessness/death wish/trinket/haste potion phase in there. |
Granted my gear is crap compared to what you guys have, I just got into BT 2 weeks ago, so execute might be more viable for me than it is for you.
What rotation do you use when you do use Slam Charsi?
Melee -> Slam -> MS -> Melee -> Slam -> WW is what I use and I have to be very strict about it to keep up good DPS. On the third rotation when both MS and WW are on CD, I use BS or demo shout normally. Then back to MS.
Edited onPatch 2.3.0
more information
white > slam > instant > white, the instants being ms, ww, ms, free (usually refresh demo)
I don't play with high latency and tend not to flub my slams all that much, if anything I swing a little late rather than too early and clip off the white hit. I tend to revert to MS/WW/HS when Heroism'd.
Edit: I have Quartz
Edit #2: Here's a week ago, Teron with Slam. Note my gear is different in that. Didn't have T6 chest (Bulwark of Ancient Kings), didn't have Bloodstained Pauldrons (T5), so I was wearing Hourglass over Bloodlust for the sake of crit rating, which was probably dumb. Also had Savagery on my mace at that time. To make matters worse I think our Enhancement Shaman was away that night. Doing 1265 with a resto Shaman and sans about four gear changes makes me feel even worse about barely breaking 1300 this week.
I don't play with high latency and tend not to flub my slams all that much, if anything I swing a little late rather than too early and clip off the white hit. I tend to revert to MS/WW/HS when Heroism'd.
Edit: I have Quartz
Edit #2: Here's a week ago, Teron with Slam. Note my gear is different in that. Didn't have T6 chest (Bulwark of Ancient Kings), didn't have Bloodstained Pauldrons (T5), so I was wearing Hourglass over Bloodlust for the sake of crit rating, which was probably dumb. Also had Savagery on my mace at that time. To make matters worse I think our Enhancement Shaman was away that night. Doing 1265 with a resto Shaman and sans about four gear changes makes me feel even worse about barely breaking 1300 this week.
Last edited by Charsi : 11/29/07 at 12:59 PM.
Edited onPatch 2.3.0
In response to Charsi, several things stand out:
1. Gear differences. Mace spec is virtually useless for raids as I'm sure you're aware (good luck on getting Cataclysm to drop again soon), and the Torch has haste on it which is a very low valued stat. The differences in weapon spec are probably negligible in this specific comparison though because I only got 3 sword spec procs on the Teron attempt in question. So the only real differences are haste on the mace and higher weapon dps from Cataclysm being 10 ilevels higher. Aside from that, I run 4pc t6, so in the same number of mortal strikes (22), I did 64k damage versus your 50k. This is also partially attributable to my having lotp as I critted two more than you.
2. Spec differences. Most notably, you have points in imp intercept against my points in imp disciplines (2/3), and 4 extra seconds on recklessness can make a big difference. Aside from that as you mentioned you're specced into slam but did not use it, and I can almost certainly assure you that using slam will be a large increase in damage. Especially with a 3.8 speed weapon, there should be no problems with timing.
3. Raid differences and other factors. The biggest difference between our parses that I can see is that your teron kill appears to last about a minute longer than mine, or about 33% more combat time. This will significantly reduce your reported dps. Less time on the kill means a higher percentage of my combat time is spent with some kind of timer or cooldown up, be it bloodlust or potion or deathwish or recklessness or trinkets or any combination thereof. You may also want to check on little things like faerie fire and curse of recklessness always being up. Also, the unsung hero of other factors, luck may have played a part. I've done 1950 dps on Teron as fury and then come back the next week and done 1650 without changing anything up or making any mistakes. It looks like the only place you really got unlucky was with heroic strikes, and as has been stated heroic strikes are basically already a waste of rage, and with an 18% crit rate like you had they can just kill your dps.
On another note, execute is not at all a waste. I used one insane strength pot on my Teron log at the beginning of the fight because it's the best option I think while continuing to slam. At the end of the fight I used deathwish, recklessness, and a haste pot and got a pretty amazing dps boost (I generally try to use haste pots during bloodlust and/or execute spam when I'm not slamming, and if I have insane strength I use it in a rare situation like this where I can drop a pot cooldown and know that I won't be getting bloodlust). Now, I don't spam execute, I give mortal strike and usually whirlwind priority if I have rage, but if they're on cooldown or I only get 20 or so rage per round I'll execute. I only had 1 execute "hit" on my Teron log, but I had 7 crits. I keep forgetting to bring my two swiftsteel bludgeons while raiding as MS to see how much of a difference it makes <20%, but I have a hard time using non swords as a sword spec. Not that it would've mattered much this time I guess since I got three fucking sword spec procs.
Anyway I hope that helps, and good luck with your weapon drops and future ms dps. In response to Cruorr I definitely understand enjoying fury more than ms, but I think on my part it comes down to laziness. Keeping up solid slam rotations with dst and cataclysm's edge can be a challenge sometimes, but all in all I think ms can be more entertaining, and as the numbers show there's really no comparison between the overall raid dps contributed by ms vs fury.
1. Gear differences. Mace spec is virtually useless for raids as I'm sure you're aware (good luck on getting Cataclysm to drop again soon), and the Torch has haste on it which is a very low valued stat. The differences in weapon spec are probably negligible in this specific comparison though because I only got 3 sword spec procs on the Teron attempt in question. So the only real differences are haste on the mace and higher weapon dps from Cataclysm being 10 ilevels higher. Aside from that, I run 4pc t6, so in the same number of mortal strikes (22), I did 64k damage versus your 50k. This is also partially attributable to my having lotp as I critted two more than you.
2. Spec differences. Most notably, you have points in imp intercept against my points in imp disciplines (2/3), and 4 extra seconds on recklessness can make a big difference. Aside from that as you mentioned you're specced into slam but did not use it, and I can almost certainly assure you that using slam will be a large increase in damage. Especially with a 3.8 speed weapon, there should be no problems with timing.
3. Raid differences and other factors. The biggest difference between our parses that I can see is that your teron kill appears to last about a minute longer than mine, or about 33% more combat time. This will significantly reduce your reported dps. Less time on the kill means a higher percentage of my combat time is spent with some kind of timer or cooldown up, be it bloodlust or potion or deathwish or recklessness or trinkets or any combination thereof. You may also want to check on little things like faerie fire and curse of recklessness always being up. Also, the unsung hero of other factors, luck may have played a part. I've done 1950 dps on Teron as fury and then come back the next week and done 1650 without changing anything up or making any mistakes. It looks like the only place you really got unlucky was with heroic strikes, and as has been stated heroic strikes are basically already a waste of rage, and with an 18% crit rate like you had they can just kill your dps.
On another note, execute is not at all a waste. I used one insane strength pot on my Teron log at the beginning of the fight because it's the best option I think while continuing to slam. At the end of the fight I used deathwish, recklessness, and a haste pot and got a pretty amazing dps boost (I generally try to use haste pots during bloodlust and/or execute spam when I'm not slamming, and if I have insane strength I use it in a rare situation like this where I can drop a pot cooldown and know that I won't be getting bloodlust). Now, I don't spam execute, I give mortal strike and usually whirlwind priority if I have rage, but if they're on cooldown or I only get 20 or so rage per round I'll execute. I only had 1 execute "hit" on my Teron log, but I had 7 crits. I keep forgetting to bring my two swiftsteel bludgeons while raiding as MS to see how much of a difference it makes <20%, but I have a hard time using non swords as a sword spec. Not that it would've mattered much this time I guess since I got three fucking sword spec procs.
Anyway I hope that helps, and good luck with your weapon drops and future ms dps. In response to Cruorr I definitely understand enjoying fury more than ms, but I think on my part it comes down to laziness. Keeping up solid slam rotations with dst and cataclysm's edge can be a challenge sometimes, but all in all I think ms can be more entertaining, and as the numbers show there's really no comparison between the overall raid dps contributed by ms vs fury.
Last edited by Modrack : 11/29/07 at 5:30 PM.
Hrm, running out of ideas... Using a swing timer add on?
I'm afraid this is another 'what am I doing wrong?' post. I've read up carefully on my fury theorycrafting, have had quite a bit of practice and use the spreadsheet. However, having just read of warriors doing some 1500dps (sustained) on Gorefiend as Arms I wonder why I'm no where near that as fury on SSC bosses. This is the link to my guild's WWS from last night's Morogrim fight: Loading... although it includes all the other bosses bar Vashj as well. I chose this because all I did was attack without moving for 10 mins or so. I can't give a direct armoury link because it doesn't appear to be up atm.
I was keeping up demo shout and sunder armour (no useful warrs around), and certainly I was skimping on the haste pots, but otherwise I'm not sure what to complain about. Group set up perphaps - I only had a LW rogue and a Feral Druid. Am I missing something fundamental here, or do I just need more gear/consumables? My dps isn't out of line with the rest of my guild, but I suspect 847dps isn't what I should be doing. I've only broken 1000dps with an ench. shammie.
Another important question. How much to people find that the DPS they output in game differs from what the spreadsheet says? If so, by how much? It's hardly fair for me to use myself as evidence given I'm concerned with what I'm outputting anyone, but I've never been at what the spreadsheet suggets.
I was keeping up demo shout and sunder armour (no useful warrs around), and certainly I was skimping on the haste pots, but otherwise I'm not sure what to complain about. Group set up perphaps - I only had a LW rogue and a Feral Druid. Am I missing something fundamental here, or do I just need more gear/consumables? My dps isn't out of line with the rest of my guild, but I suspect 847dps isn't what I should be doing. I've only broken 1000dps with an ench. shammie.
Another important question. How much to people find that the DPS they output in game differs from what the spreadsheet says? If so, by how much? It's hardly fair for me to use myself as evidence given I'm concerned with what I'm outputting anyone, but I've never been at what the spreadsheet suggets.
a few things for maxing dps, Ive seen the execute lowering dps thing a lot, this is crazy... reck/haste pot/12 rage executes are huge. Also, for maxing dps, you need to work with your grp. Almost every dps in our guild is now going leather working for haste drums... when you have that up 100% of fights its big. You need to work with your shaman. Get him to do hero when its good for you, so you can have death wish up while hero is up.
Edited onPatch 2.3.0
Sorry if this is stated somewhere, but I've searched the forums and haven't been able to find:
Which sharpening stone should I use on my off-hand? Adamantite (12 weapon damage, 14 crit rating) or Elemental (28 crit rating). My off-hand is 1.5 speed.
I've seen many use Adamantite but from a number of sources I've heard/read that the Elemental results in more dps, which is easily possible, as an additional 14 crit rating affects main hand white as well as yellow damage, and the offhand does a small portion (38%) of an already small portion (40-50%) of a warrior's total damage.
Is there a point at which one stone is better than the other, or is one better than the other pretty much all of the time? Thanks.
Which sharpening stone should I use on my off-hand? Adamantite (12 weapon damage, 14 crit rating) or Elemental (28 crit rating). My off-hand is 1.5 speed.
I've seen many use Adamantite but from a number of sources I've heard/read that the Elemental results in more dps, which is easily possible, as an additional 14 crit rating affects main hand white as well as yellow damage, and the offhand does a small portion (38%) of an already small portion (40-50%) of a warrior's total damage.
Is there a point at which one stone is better than the other, or is one better than the other pretty much all of the time? Thanks.
Last edited by Lapp : 11/29/07 at 6:07 PM.
Edited onPatch 2.3.0
Cataclysm's just dropped for us last night (armory hasn't updated in over 24 hours for some reason) and I picked it up to have a better PvP weapon than what I had been using (Trollbane). I specced 33/28 from my normal 17/44 and did similar DPS as to what I had been doing before, but could have probably done even better if I had been timing slams better (didn't really get it down good until Teron). Ended up doing 1682 (War/Sham/Rogue x3) on Teron without any haste potions and I didn't bother trying to switch to two fast one handers with only a 9% hit rating for Executes. Execute doesn't seem to be a waste at all on Teron with a 2h, especially when you almost always have enough rage (more than enough) to hit it every, or near every global with Bloodlust going. With Bloodlust and DST active, trying to do the typical Slam rotation seems to just be more of a waste than mashing Execute on that fight. It would be even harder with a haste pot active.
Missing a Slam due to a Flurry or DST proc annoys me to no end, as does having to use a 50 - 100 rage Execute on a mob that keeps being yanked away right when a Slam is about to hit. I don't particularly care for it, it's just a change of pace for now, but I can quickly see myself getting sick of it on raids. I also don't plan on seeking out pure 2h optimal gear when I am doing Arena for 2x 1h weapons. I'd have to see some very convincing evidence that BF is adding enough of a boost to *our* raids for me to consider it worth the annoyance factor of this spec. Teron is really a poor fight to base the Arms vs Fury argument on anyway due to how much rage you get from it. I noticed a significant drop on Najentus and Bloodboil, while our Rogues and Hunter seemed to be doing the same they always do. Shade and Teron saw an extremely minor personal boost and again, our Rogues and Hunter seemed to be doing the same as before.
| I definitely understand enjoying fury more than ms, but I think on my part it comes down to laziness. Keeping up solid slam rotations with dst and cataclysm's edge can be a challenge sometimes, but all in all I think ms can be more entertaining, and as the numbers show there's really no comparison between the overall raid dps contributed by ms vs fury. |
Last edited by Graul : 11/30/07 at 1:54 AM.
Edited onPatch 2.3.0
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Originally Posted by Modrack
So to continue my comparison of MS and fury post 2.3, I had a pretty good set of boss kills yesterday as MS which I think further reinforces my earlier point that MS is vastly superior to fury as the first or only dps warrior in a given raid.
Kaz'rogal: WWS Anetheron (Slept twice): WWS Teron Gorefiend: WWS I'm interested to see if anybody has recorded attempts with higher dps on those bosses post wf/sword spec/dst nerfs, I certainly don't have the best possible gear but those beat my previous bests by a fair amount. I was using my current spec on the armory, and my gear was an optimal bt/hyjal ms setup. |
We had no blood frenzy, but did have lotp and UR.Teron Gorefiend - 2351 dps
Last edited by Kupeludo : 11/30/07 at 2:03 AM.
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Originally Posted by Kupeludo
I'm not sure how he did it, I think he hacks, anyways I'm also there doing good I guess, would have been better if I got to execute, damn ghosts.
We had no blood frenzy, but did have lotp and UR.Teron Gorefiend - 2351 dps |
Also he has more armor penetration then you have. He used recklessness.
I think those are the main reasons.
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Originally Posted by King Brasidas
I'm afraid this is another 'what am I doing wrong?' post. I've read up carefully on my fury theorycrafting, have had quite a bit of practice and use the spreadsheet. However, having just read of warriors doing some 1500dps (sustained) on Gorefiend as Arms I wonder why I'm no where near that as fury on SSC bosses. This is the link to my guild's WWS from last night's Morogrim fight: Loading... although it includes all the other bosses bar Vashj as well. I chose this because all I did was attack without moving for 10 mins or so. I can't give a direct armoury link because it doesn't appear to be up atm.
I was keeping up demo shout and sunder armour (no useful warrs around), and certainly I was skimping on the haste pots, but otherwise I'm not sure what to complain about. Group set up perphaps - I only had a LW rogue and a Feral Druid. Am I missing something fundamental here, or do I just need more gear/consumables? My dps isn't out of line with the rest of my guild, but I suspect 847dps isn't what I should be doing. I've only broken 1000dps with an ench. shammie. Another important question. How much to people find that the DPS they output in game differs from what the spreadsheet says? If so, by how much? It's hardly fair for me to use myself as evidence given I'm concerned with what I'm outputting anyone, but I've never been at what the spreadsheet suggets. |
Spreadsheet dps is always higher than the dps in game. For me it's about 20% (up to 40% if I'm slacking) off as DW fury. Not sure why, maybe I'm overusing HS but it feels like I can do BT/WW whenever up. Don't use the spreadsheet to model "true dps", that is not what it's meant for. You should only use it to compare gear setups, and to calculate accurate SEP values. It can possibly also be used to compare minor talent changes, but certainly not to compare arms and fury specs.
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Originally Posted by King Brasidas
I'm afraid this is another 'what am I doing wrong?' post. I've read up carefully on my fury theorycrafting, have had quite a bit of practice and use the spreadsheet. However, having just read of warriors doing some 1500dps (sustained) on Gorefiend as Arms I wonder why I'm no where near that as fury on SSC bosses. This is the link to my guild's WWS from last night's Morogrim fight: Loading... although it includes all the other bosses bar Vashj as well. I chose this because all I did was attack without moving for 10 mins or so. I can't give a direct armoury link because it doesn't appear to be up atm.
I was keeping up demo shout and sunder armour (no useful warrs around), and certainly I was skimping on the haste pots, but otherwise I'm not sure what to complain about. Group set up perphaps - I only had a LW rogue and a Feral Druid. Am I missing something fundamental here, or do I just need more gear/consumables? My dps isn't out of line with the rest of my guild, but I suspect 847dps isn't what I should be doing. I've only broken 1000dps with an ench. shammie. Another important question. How much to people find that the DPS they output in game differs from what the spreadsheet says? If so, by how much? It's hardly fair for me to use myself as evidence given I'm concerned with what I'm outputting anyone, but I've never been at what the spreadsheet suggets. |
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Originally Posted by Gruntle
Well, I'm not sure but won't the stance switches (to keep up the sunders) play havoc with your rage generation and slam cycles? I'd guess that you could lose 10-20% personal dps from this only. Also, you need WF to get the really high dps. I don't really think you can expect more than 850 without WF and having to stanceswitch.
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Originally Posted by Shini
You can sunder in berserker stance.
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Edited onPatch 2.3.0
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Originally Posted by Graul
The average I do in Hyjal/BT now is 1550 on most fights. We just did SSC the other night and my damage was much lower than in the other zones.
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Now as I nicely reminded by a fire in the hall of heroes that effects that dont crit can still proc things that proc on crits like enrage and blood frenzy. I thought I saw enrage pop up on morogrim after a earthquake but it may have just been a murloc. Was I mistaken or is there free damage and healing to be found wearing pvp gear on fights where you mey get hit a lot. I doubt its much of an effect in the long run, and you may be wearing it anyway for those fights just for the stam.
Last edited by Machinator : 11/30/07 at 9:39 AM.
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Originally Posted by Machinator
Well I noticed that from the Raid Boss Armor thread that most of SSC has more armor than bosses in hyjal. That may account for part of it if you havent changed gear/groups.
Now as I nicely reminded by a fire in the hall of heroes that effects that dont crit can still proc things that proc on crits like enrage and blood frenzy. I thought I saw enrage pop up on morogrim after a earthquake but it may have just been a murloc. Was I mistaken or is there free damage and healing to be found wearing pvp gear on fights where you mey get hit a lot. I doubt its much of an effect in the long run, and you may be wearing it anyway for those fights just for the stam. |
Also, I do recall proccing Enrage on the fire in the Org BG queue room.
| Missing a Slam due to a Flurry or DST proc annoys me to no end, as does having to use a 50 - 100 rage Execute on a mob that keeps being yanked away right when a Slam is about to hit. I don't particularly care for it, it's just a change of pace for now, but I can quickly see myself getting sick of it on raids. |
Edited onPatch 2.3.0
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Originally Posted by Modrack
So to continue my comparison of MS and fury post 2.3, I had a pretty good set of boss kills yesterday as MS which I think further reinforces my earlier point that MS is vastly superior to fury as the first or only dps warrior in a given raid.
Kaz'rogal: WWS Anetheron (Slept twice): WWS Teron Gorefiend: WWS I'm interested to see if anybody has recorded attempts with higher dps on those bosses post wf/sword spec/dst nerfs, I certainly don't have the best possible gear but those beat my previous bests by a fair amount. I was using my current spec on the armory, and my gear was an optimal bt/hyjal ms setup. |
I had LOTP and an enhancement Shaman. No BF or Expose in the raid. We do have a Ret Pal though.
Anetheron (slept just once) 1891 DPS
Kaz'rogal 1952 DPS
Gorefiend 2077 DPS
My gear is very solid. Cloak, ring, ranged slot upgrades are out there for me, but they are minor. OH Warglaive would obviously give me a big boost, and if I was shooting for personal DPS I could rep Solarian's. But overall I have very good gear, I certainly cant complain.
So, yeah pretty disappointing comparison to yours. You did better on 2 of the 3 and on Gorefiend, it was very close. Lets assume its a wash on personal DPS...you are throwing a 4% buff to all physical DPS...in my raid that would be a lot more total damage. The Future of a Fury DPS Warrior is bleak unless something changes. There is no reason to take Fury over Arms with the first DPS Warrior, and if you are building a raid (or guild) from the ground up, is there room for two+ DPS Warriors? I suspect all the Fury Warriors that are flourishing in endgame PVE guilds are people that have been around a long while or in leadership positions.
Last edited by Hozz : 11/30/07 at 11:47 AM. Reason: More stuff
We are currently on kael and i used to be the main OT but im letting a druid take my spot cause honestly its whats best. We already have 1 fury warrior in our raid and i was going fury as well. After reading all this whats the point honestly? Im pretty shocked he has better dps numbers than you with your current gear hozz. Not that its your fault but blizzards fault. The fury tree is truly seeing dark times right now. I honestly dont believe they intended for ms to be a better and more viable raiding spec.
Time to get that lionheart executioner crafted now...
Time to get that lionheart executioner crafted now...
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Originally Posted by Zadus
We are currently on kael and i used to be the main OT but im letting a druid take my spot cause honestly its whats best. We already have 1 fury warrior in our raid and i was going fury as well. After reading all this whats the point honestly? Im pretty shocked he has better dps numbers than you with your current gear hozz. Not that its your fault but blizzards fault. The fury tree is truly seeing dark times right now. I honestly dont believe they intended for ms to be a better and more viable raiding spec.
Time to get that lionheart executioner crafted now... |
Oh please what? Isn't that a useless post? I was in no way trying to sound righteous. Maybe im not seeing something your seeing. Thats why you should enlighten me if you will and show me how you are looking at all this maybe i will see it and understand.
We can still put out DPS in SSC
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Originally Posted by Graul
Your DPS is nowhere near "bad" if you are sundering (which I guess Gruntle forgot can be done from Bersker?) and also DS, but really, if in a raid that has two non DPS Warriors and a Feral Druid (who is on DPS) you are having to sunder, something is really wrong. The biggest problem with your DPS appears to be AP related at a glance, and the lack of a Shaman in conjunction to you debuffing instead of focusing on DPS. As far as Warriors breaking X DPS in BT and such, I just posted how there is a huge disparity in the average damage melee can do in SSC compared to BT. The highest DPS I've ever done in SSC was 1225 on Karathress before the WF nerf. The average I do in Hyjal/BT now is 1550 on most fights. We just did SSC the other night and my damage was much lower than in the other zones.
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Wow Web Stats
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Originally Posted by Hozz
I am 17/44, so not Arms. But we had a night last week where we did all of those bosses in a night so I thought I would link and compare.
I had LOTP and an enhancement Shaman. No BF or Expose in the raid. We do have a Ret Pal though. Anetheron (slept just once) 1891 DPS Kaz'rogal 1952 DPS Gorefiend 2077 DPS My gear is very solid. Cloak, ring, ranged slot upgrades are out there for me, but they are minor. OH Warglaive would obviously give me a big boost, and if I was shooting for personal DPS I could rep Solarian's. But overall I have very good gear, I certainly cant complain. So, yeah pretty disappointing comparison to yours. You did better on 2 of the 3 and on Gorefiend, it was very close. Lets assume its a wash on personal DPS...you are throwing a 4% buff to all physical DPS...in my raid that would be a lot more total damage. The Future of a Fury DPS Warrior is bleak unless something changes. There is no reason to take Fury over Arms with the first DPS Warrior, and if you are building a raid (or guild) from the ground up, is there room for two+ DPS Warriors? I suspect all the Fury Warriors that are flourishing in endgame PVE guilds are people that have been around a long while or in leadership positions. |
I think there's definitely room for more than one dps warrior. They serve as great offtanks and do more damage than all the other hybrids. We typically still run 5 warrior raids because we had a lot of warriors going into TBC and they still play. If the guild was starting fresh now, we wouldn't take 5, but 4 isn't out of the question.
Another thing that is really silly about this comparison is when you compare arguably the best 2h setup (including weapon) to all of the non "best possible" DW setups. Until you've beaten Illidan and have actually been lucky enough to have two sets of Warglaives, a 2h setup in Onslaught with Cataclysm's may be more optimal for your raid, especially if you can do the same or close to the same personal as you did DW. But once you get the Warglaives (or even S3?), only then can you make any definite claims on what is going to add the most raid DPS. Comparing optimal to non optimal just doesn't do it. I just went from a Wicked Edge and S2 fast off hand to a CE. Do you really think the spec is what is keeping me at similar DPS? I sure don't.
Yes, and as already said by someone other earlier this thread - maybe a MS-warrior has sometimes more damage, sometimes - there are bosses, where a MS warrior can't add blood frenzy cause they are immune. And there are times, he just won't add blood frenzy 100% of the time, because he doesn't crit or have to move and wait etc. ... and there are guilds, who hasn't the heavy support, a MS-warrior needs to even compare to a Fury.
Don't forget this... Fury is more reliable DPS compared to MS. MS has only the potential to be better.
What about 2H-Fury? I heard, it would just beat both specs - only needs some amazing equip.
Don't forget this... Fury is more reliable DPS compared to MS. MS has only the potential to be better.
What about 2H-Fury? I heard, it would just beat both specs - only needs some amazing equip.
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Originally Posted by Kaan
Yes, and as already said by someone other earlier this thread - maybe a MS-warrior has sometimes more damage, sometimes - there are bosses, where a MS warrior can't add blood frenzy cause they are immune. And there are times, he just won't add blood frenzy 100% of the time, because he doesn't crit or have to move and wait etc. ... and there are guilds, who hasn't the heavy support, a MS-warrior needs to even compare to a Fury.
Don't forget this... Fury is more reliable DPS compared to MS. MS has only the potential to be better. What about 2H-Fury? I heard, it would just beat both specs - only needs some amazing equip. |
I don't mean to break up the current 2H[BF] vs DW[fury] discussion but...
Something I've tried since 2.3 is gearing for pure +crit. Although I understand it's been hashed and rehashed in the past, but a recent outlook on flurry might be an area DW fury might look into further? Often one hears 'ap makes the fury tree' but some dynamics have changed.
Pre-2.3 the fury warrior populace was divided between slow/fast MH/OH and slow/slow MH/OH under the argument of smoother rage generation versus higher flurry uptime. The new WW changes have cemented the slow/slow argument, for example.
My reasoning is as such: s2/t5 weapons (and of course s3/t6) along with corresponding gear pack enough of a punch that rage is never an issue when looking to spam BT/WW on each c/d, with HStrikes, Hamstrings and Rampage refreshes when GCD allows. As such, stacking AP/str isn't needed to hit harder for rage. Also, the new WW provides a very comparable dps output compared to BT for similar rage as well. Lastly, AP is very easy to raid buff- BoKings, food, flasks/elixirs, Unleashed Rage etc whereas crit is fairly constant not counting LotP.
I haven't been back into SSC/TK for testing much compared to pre-2.3 WWS's I have, but I'm curious to know how:
2.6/2.6 s3 MH/OH
2k ap unbuffed
170hit
37% crit
would fare compared to:
2.6/2.6 s3 MH/OH
2.6k ap unbuffed
210hit
31% crit
Maybe the future of the [fury] dps warrior is seeking perma-flurry. With the slow/slow setup being unarguably the optimal setup, it also allows for more instant attacks. Since flurry is the one talent an MS/BF specced warrior cannot max out, perhaps it is the area that might prove the saving grace for fury? Keep in mind more crits means an easier time predicting refreshing Rampage with < 3sec left.
Perhaps it is all a 'moo point' (thank you Joey), but just tossing the idea of a crit-obsessed gear setup out there.
Something I've tried since 2.3 is gearing for pure +crit. Although I understand it's been hashed and rehashed in the past, but a recent outlook on flurry might be an area DW fury might look into further? Often one hears 'ap makes the fury tree' but some dynamics have changed.
Pre-2.3 the fury warrior populace was divided between slow/fast MH/OH and slow/slow MH/OH under the argument of smoother rage generation versus higher flurry uptime. The new WW changes have cemented the slow/slow argument, for example.
My reasoning is as such: s2/t5 weapons (and of course s3/t6) along with corresponding gear pack enough of a punch that rage is never an issue when looking to spam BT/WW on each c/d, with HStrikes, Hamstrings and Rampage refreshes when GCD allows. As such, stacking AP/str isn't needed to hit harder for rage. Also, the new WW provides a very comparable dps output compared to BT for similar rage as well. Lastly, AP is very easy to raid buff- BoKings, food, flasks/elixirs, Unleashed Rage etc whereas crit is fairly constant not counting LotP.
I haven't been back into SSC/TK for testing much compared to pre-2.3 WWS's I have, but I'm curious to know how:
2.6/2.6 s3 MH/OH
2k ap unbuffed
170hit
37% crit
would fare compared to:
2.6/2.6 s3 MH/OH
2.6k ap unbuffed
210hit
31% crit
Maybe the future of the [fury] dps warrior is seeking perma-flurry. With the slow/slow setup being unarguably the optimal setup, it also allows for more instant attacks. Since flurry is the one talent an MS/BF specced warrior cannot max out, perhaps it is the area that might prove the saving grace for fury? Keep in mind more crits means an easier time predicting refreshing Rampage with < 3sec left.
Perhaps it is all a 'moo point' (thank you Joey), but just tossing the idea of a crit-obsessed gear setup out there.
"With the slow/slow setup being unarguably the optimal setup, it also allows for more instant attacks. "
I don't understand how slow/slow allows for more instant attacks than slow/fast.
I don't understand how slow/slow allows for more instant attacks than slow/fast.
Last week during a Hyjal raid, I specced 17-41-3 to try out TM while off-tanking and it got me thinking about DW spec. 5/5 brings OH damage from 50% to 62.5%. So, has anyone done any number-crunching to see how 3/5 DW Spec and 2/2 Imp Execute and 2/2 Weapon Mastery compares with 5/5 DW spec and 2/2 WM?
So has anyone checked how much crit is achievable theoretically? Assuming crit-gear choice, agi enchants, +10 crit gems, proper food, etc. Right now I seem to be fluctuating between 29-32% depending on item choice. Raidbuffed I approach 40% (with LotP) - which means every third strike crits (roughly). It would be interesting to pass 50% - thus making every second blow a crit.
I tried doing that once just to see what the sheet said I would get, but I think I deleted it. It wasnt the highest dps because you have to sacrifice some stuff to get the highest crit. There is no such thing as perma-flurry, and past a certain point you are just taking crit for the damage.
Right now my SEP on my sheet is that 1 crit rating is about .99 of 1 str. So stacking crit might work, but I dont think its as good as a balance.
Right now my SEP on my sheet is that 1 crit rating is about .99 of 1 str. So stacking crit might work, but I dont think its as good as a balance.
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Originally Posted by Opalira
"With the slow/slow setup being unarguably the optimal setup, it also allows for more instant attacks. "
I don't understand how slow/slow allows for more instant attacks than slow/fast. |
3 flurry charges consumed in 5.2 seconds. GCD = 1.5. 3 instants inside the flurry uptime.
2.6spd and 1.7spd hit at different times, burning 2 flurry charges. The OH hits again 1.7 seconds after it first hit.
3 flurry charges consumed in 3.4 seconds. GCD = 1.5. 2 instants inside the flurry uptime.
^ Rough sketch.
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Originally Posted by Bronwyn
So has anyone checked how much crit is achievable theoretically? Assuming crit-gear choice, agi enchants, +10 crit gems, proper food, etc. Right now I seem to be fluctuating between 29-32% depending on item choice. Raidbuffed I approach 40% (with LotP) - which means every third strike crits (roughly). It would be interesting to pass 50% - thus making every second blow a crit.
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Originally Posted by Mjollnir
2.6spd and 2.6spd hit at the same time, burning 2 flurry charges. They then hit again [at the same time] 2.6 seconds later.
3 flurry charges consumed in 5.2 seconds. GCD = 1.5. 3 instants inside the flurry uptime. 2.6spd and 1.7spd hit at different times, burning 2 flurry charges. The OH hits again 1.7 seconds after it first hit. 3 flurry charges consumed in 3.4 seconds. GCD = 1.5. 2 instants inside the flurry uptime. ^ Rough sketch. |
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Originally Posted by Apate
Weapons with the same speed do not necessarily hit at the same time, I think you can find examples in Disquette's Flurry post (as well as the old discussions about toggling attack while out of range and moving into range to encourage them to hit at the same time).
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I don't think this is the case, as it doesn't take much to throw the two hands out of phase. A single parry will be enough to do that, and also, over time, it will probably happen anyway as weapons do not stick to their weapon speed perfectly, but will often be within 0.05 of a second of it.
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Originally Posted by Randor
Last week during a Hyjal raid, I specced 17-41-3 to try out TM while off-tanking and it got me thinking about DW spec. 5/5 brings OH damage from 50% to 62.5%. So, has anyone done any number-crunching to see how 3/5 DW Spec and 2/2 Imp Execute and 2/2 Weapon Mastery compares with 5/5 DW spec and 2/2 WM?
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Originally Posted by Bronwyn
So has anyone checked how much crit is achievable theoretically? Assuming crit-gear choice, agi enchants, +10 crit gems, proper food, etc. Right now I seem to be fluctuating between 29-32% depending on item choice. Raidbuffed I approach 40% (with LotP) - which means every third strike crits (roughly). It would be interesting to pass 50% - thus making every second blow a crit.
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As DW fury I can hit 38% crit in berserker stance unbuffed without a problem. It would be even higher if I was dual wielding S3 swords, then of course gets higher with buffs, and using the 28 crit stone offhand. Then feral druid in my grp, mongoose both hands, pally buffing 3% crit I've hit crit in the high 50's on bosses. If I went for every crit item, I could see hitting 60% crit with luck.
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Originally Posted by Cruor
As DW fury I can hit 38% crit in berserker stance unbuffed without a problem. It would be even higher if I was dual wielding S3 swords, then of course gets higher with buffs, and using the 28 crit stone offhand. Then feral druid in my grp, mongoose both hands, pally buffing 3% crit I've hit crit in the high 50's on bosses. If I went for every crit item, I could see hitting 60% crit with luck.
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Originally Posted by Randor
No link to your armory so we can't see your gear/gems/enchants. But for that much crit as 17-44, how much attack power do you have?
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He's pretty heavily gemmed up for crit as well: The World of Warcraft Armory
Armory hasn't seemed to wanted to update in four or five days now. In my regular DW setup, I sit at 36.56% crit unbuffed, 1979 AP, 14.5% hit. I can see hitting at least 38% after a new Boot and Helm upgrade.
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Originally Posted by Mjollnir
Maybe the future of the [fury] dps warrior is seeking perma-flurry. With the slow/slow setup being unarguably the optimal setup, it also allows for more instant attacks. Since flurry is the one talent an MS/BF specced warrior cannot max out, perhaps it is the area that might prove the saving grace for fury? |
What people tend to forget is the fact that fast weapon setups give you a much smoother rage generation and are thus a lot less vulnerable to miss streaks for the rage generation (this is very evident for Execute phase, but there you can easily switch in fast weapons). If you have lowish hit (which you will have if you go for a crit-heavy setup) miss streaks might cause you to miss important cooldowns (BT or WW) with a slow setup. This might not be the case at all for endgame gear, where rage in plentiful, but for starting 25-mans it might very well be enough to choose a fast OH.
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Originally Posted by world
I don't think this is the case, as it doesn't take much to throw the two hands out of phase. A single parry will be enough to do that, and also, over time, it will probably happen anyway as weapons do not stick to their weapon speed perfectly, but will often be within 0.05 of a second of it.
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.05s is shorter a time span than the server-comp lag I personally have, and I'd assume 90% or more of the WoW player gamebase. Close enough to count as simultaneous.
We are currently on kael and i used to be the main OT but im letting a druid take my spot cause honestly its whats best. We already have 1 fury warrior in our raid and i was going fury as well. After reading all this whats the point honestly? Im pretty shocked he has better dps numbers than you with your current gear hozz. Not that its your fault but blizzards fault. The fury tree is truly seeing dark times right now. I honestly dont believe they intended for ms to be a better and more viable raiding spec.
Time to get that lionheart executioner crafted now...
Time to get that lionheart executioner crafted now...
|
Originally Posted by Zadus
We are currently on kael and i used to be the main OT but im letting a druid take my spot cause honestly its whats best. We already have 1 fury warrior in our raid and i was going fury as well. After reading all this whats the point honestly? Im pretty shocked he has better dps numbers than you with your current gear hozz. Not that its your fault but blizzards fault. The fury tree is truly seeing dark times right now. I honestly dont believe they intended for ms to be a better and more viable raiding spec.
Time to get that lionheart executioner crafted now... |
Oh please what? Isn't that a useless post? I was in no way trying to sound righteous. Maybe im not seeing something your seeing. Thats why you should enlighten me if you will and show me how you are looking at all this maybe i will see it and understand.
We can still put out DPS in SSC
|
Originally Posted by Graul
Your DPS is nowhere near "bad" if you are sundering (which I guess Gruntle forgot can be done from Bersker?) and also DS, but really, if in a raid that has two non DPS Warriors and a Feral Druid (who is on DPS) you are having to sunder, something is really wrong. The biggest problem with your DPS appears to be AP related at a glance, and the lack of a Shaman in conjunction to you debuffing instead of focusing on DPS. As far as Warriors breaking X DPS in BT and such, I just posted how there is a huge disparity in the average damage melee can do in SSC compared to BT. The highest DPS I've ever done in SSC was 1225 on Karathress before the WF nerf. The average I do in Hyjal/BT now is 1550 on most fights. We just did SSC the other night and my damage was much lower than in the other zones.
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Wow Web Stats
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Originally Posted by Hozz
I am 17/44, so not Arms. But we had a night last week where we did all of those bosses in a night so I thought I would link and compare.
I had LOTP and an enhancement Shaman. No BF or Expose in the raid. We do have a Ret Pal though. Anetheron (slept just once) 1891 DPS Kaz'rogal 1952 DPS Gorefiend 2077 DPS My gear is very solid. Cloak, ring, ranged slot upgrades are out there for me, but they are minor. OH Warglaive would obviously give me a big boost, and if I was shooting for personal DPS I could rep Solarian's. But overall I have very good gear, I certainly cant complain. So, yeah pretty disappointing comparison to yours. You did better on 2 of the 3 and on Gorefiend, it was very close. Lets assume its a wash on personal DPS...you are throwing a 4% buff to all physical DPS...in my raid that would be a lot more total damage. The Future of a Fury DPS Warrior is bleak unless something changes. There is no reason to take Fury over Arms with the first DPS Warrior, and if you are building a raid (or guild) from the ground up, is there room for two+ DPS Warriors? I suspect all the Fury Warriors that are flourishing in endgame PVE guilds are people that have been around a long while or in leadership positions. |
I think there's definitely room for more than one dps warrior. They serve as great offtanks and do more damage than all the other hybrids. We typically still run 5 warrior raids because we had a lot of warriors going into TBC and they still play. If the guild was starting fresh now, we wouldn't take 5, but 4 isn't out of the question.
Another thing that is really silly about this comparison is when you compare arguably the best 2h setup (including weapon) to all of the non "best possible" DW setups. Until you've beaten Illidan and have actually been lucky enough to have two sets of Warglaives, a 2h setup in Onslaught with Cataclysm's may be more optimal for your raid, especially if you can do the same or close to the same personal as you did DW. But once you get the Warglaives (or even S3?), only then can you make any definite claims on what is going to add the most raid DPS. Comparing optimal to non optimal just doesn't do it. I just went from a Wicked Edge and S2 fast off hand to a CE. Do you really think the spec is what is keeping me at similar DPS? I sure don't.
Yes, and as already said by someone other earlier this thread - maybe a MS-warrior has sometimes more damage, sometimes - there are bosses, where a MS warrior can't add blood frenzy cause they are immune. And there are times, he just won't add blood frenzy 100% of the time, because he doesn't crit or have to move and wait etc. ... and there are guilds, who hasn't the heavy support, a MS-warrior needs to even compare to a Fury.
Don't forget this... Fury is more reliable DPS compared to MS. MS has only the potential to be better.
What about 2H-Fury? I heard, it would just beat both specs - only needs some amazing equip.
Don't forget this... Fury is more reliable DPS compared to MS. MS has only the potential to be better.
What about 2H-Fury? I heard, it would just beat both specs - only needs some amazing equip.
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Originally Posted by Kaan
Yes, and as already said by someone other earlier this thread - maybe a MS-warrior has sometimes more damage, sometimes - there are bosses, where a MS warrior can't add blood frenzy cause they are immune. And there are times, he just won't add blood frenzy 100% of the time, because he doesn't crit or have to move and wait etc. ... and there are guilds, who hasn't the heavy support, a MS-warrior needs to even compare to a Fury.
Don't forget this... Fury is more reliable DPS compared to MS. MS has only the potential to be better. What about 2H-Fury? I heard, it would just beat both specs - only needs some amazing equip. |
I don't mean to break up the current 2H[BF] vs DW[fury] discussion but...
Something I've tried since 2.3 is gearing for pure +crit. Although I understand it's been hashed and rehashed in the past, but a recent outlook on flurry might be an area DW fury might look into further? Often one hears 'ap makes the fury tree' but some dynamics have changed.
Pre-2.3 the fury warrior populace was divided between slow/fast MH/OH and slow/slow MH/OH under the argument of smoother rage generation versus higher flurry uptime. The new WW changes have cemented the slow/slow argument, for example.
My reasoning is as such: s2/t5 weapons (and of course s3/t6) along with corresponding gear pack enough of a punch that rage is never an issue when looking to spam BT/WW on each c/d, with HStrikes, Hamstrings and Rampage refreshes when GCD allows. As such, stacking AP/str isn't needed to hit harder for rage. Also, the new WW provides a very comparable dps output compared to BT for similar rage as well. Lastly, AP is very easy to raid buff- BoKings, food, flasks/elixirs, Unleashed Rage etc whereas crit is fairly constant not counting LotP.
I haven't been back into SSC/TK for testing much compared to pre-2.3 WWS's I have, but I'm curious to know how:
2.6/2.6 s3 MH/OH
2k ap unbuffed
170hit
37% crit
would fare compared to:
2.6/2.6 s3 MH/OH
2.6k ap unbuffed
210hit
31% crit
Maybe the future of the [fury] dps warrior is seeking perma-flurry. With the slow/slow setup being unarguably the optimal setup, it also allows for more instant attacks. Since flurry is the one talent an MS/BF specced warrior cannot max out, perhaps it is the area that might prove the saving grace for fury? Keep in mind more crits means an easier time predicting refreshing Rampage with < 3sec left.
Perhaps it is all a 'moo point' (thank you Joey), but just tossing the idea of a crit-obsessed gear setup out there.
Something I've tried since 2.3 is gearing for pure +crit. Although I understand it's been hashed and rehashed in the past, but a recent outlook on flurry might be an area DW fury might look into further? Often one hears 'ap makes the fury tree' but some dynamics have changed.
Pre-2.3 the fury warrior populace was divided between slow/fast MH/OH and slow/slow MH/OH under the argument of smoother rage generation versus higher flurry uptime. The new WW changes have cemented the slow/slow argument, for example.
My reasoning is as such: s2/t5 weapons (and of course s3/t6) along with corresponding gear pack enough of a punch that rage is never an issue when looking to spam BT/WW on each c/d, with HStrikes, Hamstrings and Rampage refreshes when GCD allows. As such, stacking AP/str isn't needed to hit harder for rage. Also, the new WW provides a very comparable dps output compared to BT for similar rage as well. Lastly, AP is very easy to raid buff- BoKings, food, flasks/elixirs, Unleashed Rage etc whereas crit is fairly constant not counting LotP.
I haven't been back into SSC/TK for testing much compared to pre-2.3 WWS's I have, but I'm curious to know how:
2.6/2.6 s3 MH/OH
2k ap unbuffed
170hit
37% crit
would fare compared to:
2.6/2.6 s3 MH/OH
2.6k ap unbuffed
210hit
31% crit
Maybe the future of the [fury] dps warrior is seeking perma-flurry. With the slow/slow setup being unarguably the optimal setup, it also allows for more instant attacks. Since flurry is the one talent an MS/BF specced warrior cannot max out, perhaps it is the area that might prove the saving grace for fury? Keep in mind more crits means an easier time predicting refreshing Rampage with < 3sec left.
Perhaps it is all a 'moo point' (thank you Joey), but just tossing the idea of a crit-obsessed gear setup out there.
"With the slow/slow setup being unarguably the optimal setup, it also allows for more instant attacks. "
I don't understand how slow/slow allows for more instant attacks than slow/fast.
I don't understand how slow/slow allows for more instant attacks than slow/fast.
Last week during a Hyjal raid, I specced 17-41-3 to try out TM while off-tanking and it got me thinking about DW spec. 5/5 brings OH damage from 50% to 62.5%. So, has anyone done any number-crunching to see how 3/5 DW Spec and 2/2 Imp Execute and 2/2 Weapon Mastery compares with 5/5 DW spec and 2/2 WM?
So has anyone checked how much crit is achievable theoretically? Assuming crit-gear choice, agi enchants, +10 crit gems, proper food, etc. Right now I seem to be fluctuating between 29-32% depending on item choice. Raidbuffed I approach 40% (with LotP) - which means every third strike crits (roughly). It would be interesting to pass 50% - thus making every second blow a crit.
I tried doing that once just to see what the sheet said I would get, but I think I deleted it. It wasnt the highest dps because you have to sacrifice some stuff to get the highest crit. There is no such thing as perma-flurry, and past a certain point you are just taking crit for the damage.
Right now my SEP on my sheet is that 1 crit rating is about .99 of 1 str. So stacking crit might work, but I dont think its as good as a balance.
Right now my SEP on my sheet is that 1 crit rating is about .99 of 1 str. So stacking crit might work, but I dont think its as good as a balance.
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Originally Posted by Opalira
"With the slow/slow setup being unarguably the optimal setup, it also allows for more instant attacks. "
I don't understand how slow/slow allows for more instant attacks than slow/fast. |
3 flurry charges consumed in 5.2 seconds. GCD = 1.5. 3 instants inside the flurry uptime.
2.6spd and 1.7spd hit at different times, burning 2 flurry charges. The OH hits again 1.7 seconds after it first hit.
3 flurry charges consumed in 3.4 seconds. GCD = 1.5. 2 instants inside the flurry uptime.
^ Rough sketch.
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Originally Posted by Bronwyn
So has anyone checked how much crit is achievable theoretically? Assuming crit-gear choice, agi enchants, +10 crit gems, proper food, etc. Right now I seem to be fluctuating between 29-32% depending on item choice. Raidbuffed I approach 40% (with LotP) - which means every third strike crits (roughly). It would be interesting to pass 50% - thus making every second blow a crit.
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Originally Posted by Mjollnir
2.6spd and 2.6spd hit at the same time, burning 2 flurry charges. They then hit again [at the same time] 2.6 seconds later.
3 flurry charges consumed in 5.2 seconds. GCD = 1.5. 3 instants inside the flurry uptime. 2.6spd and 1.7spd hit at different times, burning 2 flurry charges. The OH hits again 1.7 seconds after it first hit. 3 flurry charges consumed in 3.4 seconds. GCD = 1.5. 2 instants inside the flurry uptime. ^ Rough sketch. |
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Originally Posted by Apate
Weapons with the same speed do not necessarily hit at the same time, I think you can find examples in Disquette's Flurry post (as well as the old discussions about toggling attack while out of range and moving into range to encourage them to hit at the same time).
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I don't think this is the case, as it doesn't take much to throw the two hands out of phase. A single parry will be enough to do that, and also, over time, it will probably happen anyway as weapons do not stick to their weapon speed perfectly, but will often be within 0.05 of a second of it.
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Originally Posted by Randor
Last week during a Hyjal raid, I specced 17-41-3 to try out TM while off-tanking and it got me thinking about DW spec. 5/5 brings OH damage from 50% to 62.5%. So, has anyone done any number-crunching to see how 3/5 DW Spec and 2/2 Imp Execute and 2/2 Weapon Mastery compares with 5/5 DW spec and 2/2 WM?
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Originally Posted by Bronwyn
So has anyone checked how much crit is achievable theoretically? Assuming crit-gear choice, agi enchants, +10 crit gems, proper food, etc. Right now I seem to be fluctuating between 29-32% depending on item choice. Raidbuffed I approach 40% (with LotP) - which means every third strike crits (roughly). It would be interesting to pass 50% - thus making every second blow a crit.
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As DW fury I can hit 38% crit in berserker stance unbuffed without a problem. It would be even higher if I was dual wielding S3 swords, then of course gets higher with buffs, and using the 28 crit stone offhand. Then feral druid in my grp, mongoose both hands, pally buffing 3% crit I've hit crit in the high 50's on bosses. If I went for every crit item, I could see hitting 60% crit with luck.
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Originally Posted by Cruor
As DW fury I can hit 38% crit in berserker stance unbuffed without a problem. It would be even higher if I was dual wielding S3 swords, then of course gets higher with buffs, and using the 28 crit stone offhand. Then feral druid in my grp, mongoose both hands, pally buffing 3% crit I've hit crit in the high 50's on bosses. If I went for every crit item, I could see hitting 60% crit with luck.
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Originally Posted by Randor
No link to your armory so we can't see your gear/gems/enchants. But for that much crit as 17-44, how much attack power do you have?
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He's pretty heavily gemmed up for crit as well: The World of Warcraft Armory
Armory hasn't seemed to wanted to update in four or five days now. In my regular DW setup, I sit at 36.56% crit unbuffed, 1979 AP, 14.5% hit. I can see hitting at least 38% after a new Boot and Helm upgrade.
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Originally Posted by Mjollnir
Maybe the future of the [fury] dps warrior is seeking perma-flurry. With the slow/slow setup being unarguably the optimal setup, it also allows for more instant attacks. Since flurry is the one talent an MS/BF specced warrior cannot max out, perhaps it is the area that might prove the saving grace for fury? |
What people tend to forget is the fact that fast weapon setups give you a much smoother rage generation and are thus a lot less vulnerable to miss streaks for the rage generation (this is very evident for Execute phase, but there you can easily switch in fast weapons). If you have lowish hit (which you will have if you go for a crit-heavy setup) miss streaks might cause you to miss important cooldowns (BT or WW) with a slow setup. This might not be the case at all for endgame gear, where rage in plentiful, but for starting 25-mans it might very well be enough to choose a fast OH.
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Originally Posted by world
I don't think this is the case, as it doesn't take much to throw the two hands out of phase. A single parry will be enough to do that, and also, over time, it will probably happen anyway as weapons do not stick to their weapon speed perfectly, but will often be within 0.05 of a second of it.
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.05s is shorter a time span than the server-comp lag I personally have, and I'd assume 90% or more of the WoW player gamebase. Close enough to count as simultaneous.
A reversing parry is exactly what i mean. And regarding the 0.05 second thing - thats 0.05 for every attack. It might even itself out over time, and it might not, but theres definitely a chance that this discrepancy can build up over time.
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Originally Posted by world
A reversing parry is exactly what i mean. And regarding the 0.05 second thing - thats 0.05 for every attack. It might even itself out over time, and it might not, but theres definitely a chance that this discrepancy can build up over time.
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For an axe specced 33/28/0 warrior, what would be a good crit rating? I'm at 37.34% crit unbuffed (at zerker stance) and about 2000 AP (with battleshout).
And.. I still cant do much more than 600dps (without a druid or shaman).
Thanks
And.. I still cant do much more than 600dps (without a druid or shaman).
Thanks
Edited onPatch 2.3.0
As a 33/28 sword spec warrior, with 1834 ap/31.69 crit, I usually sustain about 1k dps with a shaman (no druid), and often less, however not so much now that my guild is delving further into Hyjal/BT. On our first Anetheron kill, I came in doing 1034 DPS, and I really think I ought to be doing more. I use the regular slam rotation- white->slam->special, and don't really lag. I have a few concerns that I hope could be addressed.
Link to gear: The World of Warcraft Armory
1) I run at about 22 fps, but am going to be getting a new pc, running at probably ~80, will I see much of a dps increase from this as my I can time my slams slightly better? (Currently, its not a large problem)
2) I honestly don't really use potions- I figure I'd start using relentless assault flasks, and whatever the best cooldown potion is (can someone tell me?). Will I notice a large dps increase with this?
3) I don't regularly receive LotP, but I possibly could be. Is this a big upgrade to dps? (The spreadsheet has it down as being something like 80 dps?)
4) Should I be switching to two fast 1-h @ 19% to execute, or sustain my slam rotation?
5) Any overall pointers?
~thanks
edit: fixed dps # from 993 to 1034; WWS: Anetheron 1st kill
Link to gear: The World of Warcraft Armory
1) I run at about 22 fps, but am going to be getting a new pc, running at probably ~80, will I see much of a dps increase from this as my I can time my slams slightly better? (Currently, its not a large problem)
2) I honestly don't really use potions- I figure I'd start using relentless assault flasks, and whatever the best cooldown potion is (can someone tell me?). Will I notice a large dps increase with this?
3) I don't regularly receive LotP, but I possibly could be. Is this a big upgrade to dps? (The spreadsheet has it down as being something like 80 dps?)
4) Should I be switching to two fast 1-h @ 19% to execute, or sustain my slam rotation?
5) Any overall pointers?
~thanks
edit: fixed dps # from 993 to 1034; WWS: Anetheron 1st kill
Last edited by Kyrudun : 12/03/07 at 11:47 PM.
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Originally Posted by Hozz
I am 17/44, so not Arms. But we had a night last week where we did all of those bosses in a night so I thought I would link and compare.
I had LOTP and an enhancement Shaman. No BF or Expose in the raid. We do have a Ret Pal though. Anetheron (slept just once) 1891 DPS Kaz'rogal 1952 DPS Gorefiend 2077 DPS My gear is very solid. Cloak, ring, ranged slot upgrades are out there for me, but they are minor. OH Warglaive would obviously give me a big boost, and if I was shooting for personal DPS I could rep Solarian's. But overall I have very good gear, I certainly cant complain. |
So I guess my question is the gear actually scaling that much? Or does WWS not take into consideration things like movement time where you are doing 0 DPS? Is the DPS just calculated different somehow? I just remember in my old guild we had three very solid rogues, all of whom were putting out around 1k sustained DPS according to recount, and that rogue on your Gorefiend WWS is at 2245, haha.
Sorry if this is a silly question, but thanks
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Originally Posted by Amathal
Hello guys! This is my first post, but I do read here quite a bit. I just have one question though that has been bugging me for some time. I played a warrior for a bit in TBC, just up into early SSC/TK. I was our MT, so my DPS experience was lacking, but I feel I was pretty good at it. And I know that you out gear my warrior by quite a bit, but I'm just wondering how those numbers are possible? I looked at your WWS, so its not that I don't believe it, but my guilds have always ran recount and we have always looked at that as being pretty accurate.
So I guess my question is the gear actually scaling that much? Or does WWS not take into consideration things like movement time where you are doing 0 DPS? Is the DPS just calculated different somehow? I just remember in my old guild we had three very solid rogues, all of whom were putting out around 1k sustained DPS according to recount, and that rogue on your Gorefiend WWS is at 2245, haha. Sorry if this is a silly question, but thanks |
Different mods do calculate dps differently, but there isn't really a huge disparity. In the wws my guildmate posted earlier in this thread (where it had me at 2351 dps for gorefiend), both recap and recount were within about 20 dps of that number.
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Originally Posted by Kyrudun
As a 33/28 sword spec warrior, with 1834 ap/31.69 crit, I usually sustain about 1k dps with a shaman (no druid), and often less, however not so much now that my guild is delving further into Hyjal/BT. On our first Anetheron kill, I came in doing 1034 DPS, and I really think I ought to be doing more. I use the regular slam rotation- white->slam->special, and don't really lag. I have a few concerns that I hope could be addressed.
Link to gear: The World of Warcraft Armory 1) I run at about 22 fps, but am going to be getting a new pc, running at probably ~80, will I see much of a dps increase from this as my I can time my slams slightly better? (Currently, its not a large problem) 2) I honestly don't really use potions- I figure I'd start using relentless assault flasks, and whatever the best cooldown potion is (can someone tell me?). Will I notice a large dps increase with this? 3) I don't regularly receive LotP, but I possibly could be. Is this a big upgrade to dps? (The spreadsheet has it down as being something like 80 dps?) 4) Should I be switching to two fast 1-h @ 19% to execute, or sustain my slam rotation? 5) Any overall pointers? ~thanks edit: fixed dps # from 993 to 1034; WWS: Anetheron 1st kill |
2) Use them, they will definitely boost your DPS. Flask + haste/insane strength potions.
3) Like you said, it's around 80DPS.
4) Yes.
5) Get a swing timer add on, it's easy to time the slams correctly that way.
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Originally Posted by vultur
For an axe specced 33/28/0 warrior, what would be a good crit rating? I'm at 37.34% crit unbuffed (at zerker stance) and about 2000 AP (with battleshout).
And.. I still cant do much more than 600dps (without a druid or shaman). Thanks |
It would be nice to maybe tell us what kind of rotation you use and maybe post a WWS of one of your raids so we can possibly help you out where you're doing something wrong
For a swing timer bar I recommend "Ld50_abar" because it has a quartz-like latency bar which allows you to time slams a lot better.
Is there a specific point where using 2x 1Handers and execute spamming surpasses the Slam rotation? And would it still be worth it with only 1/2 Imp Execute?
Is there a specific point where using 2x 1Handers and execute spamming surpasses the Slam rotation? And would it still be worth it with only 1/2 Imp Execute?
Maybe when you have top TOP end gear. For now, I go from doing around 1300 DPS to doing 1900 DPS on execute range swapping for two one handers. Look back a few pages for more info on execute range and WWS reports on it.
Hello,
I have a question:
Which jems would be better to insert in my gear: red (+10 str) or yellow (+10 crit. rating) ?
My specc is 33/28 (2h). My equip is at TK/SSC/HS/BT level atm. Weapon - Soul Cleaver.
I have a question:
Which jems would be better to insert in my gear: red (+10 str) or yellow (+10 crit. rating) ?
My specc is 33/28 (2h). My equip is at TK/SSC/HS/BT level atm. Weapon - Soul Cleaver.
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Originally Posted by Eledorian
No WF gimps your rage generation (being swordspecced helps a little) so it will be hard to keep up the rotation.
It would be nice to maybe tell us what kind of rotation you use and maybe post a WWS of one of your raids so we can possibly help you out where you're doing something wrong |
We have not been raiding much lately...
I use that "white dmg - slam - special" rotation, timing the slam to hit right after the white damage hit. I was with most blues and greens a month ago, and the gear got a lot better, but still the DPS is lacking. I'm kinda lost here. My guild is starting SSC, so gear to me is Karazhan/Gruul stuff plus pvp /arena/badge gear.
We ran ZA yesterday, and Recount was showing me with 500dps on the first boss (bear)... No druid nor shaman on my group, and it's most likely that I will never have one.
About the rotation again, most of the time I only have rage to slam.
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Originally Posted by Ego
Gear does scale very well, but the fights he posted wws for also allow near 100% dps time. By early ssc/tk I'm assuming you mean hydross/lurker and void reaver/alar. The nature of these fights does not allow for as much dps as gorefiend/kaz'rogal/anetheron. Raid makeup also accounts for a lot of disparity in dps. We had an enhancement shaman, feral druid, blood frenzy for about 50% of the fight, expose weakness, and curse of recklessness for that kill.
Different mods do calculate dps differently, but there isn't really a huge disparity. In the wws my guildmate posted earlier in this thread (where it had me at 2351 dps for gorefiend), both recap and recount were within about 20 dps of that number. |
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Originally Posted by vultur
Heya!
We have not been raiding much lately... I use that "white dmg - slam - special" rotation, timing the slam to hit right after the white damage hit. I was with most blues and greens a month ago, and the gear got a lot better, but still the DPS is lacking. I'm kinda lost here. My guild is starting SSC, so gear to me is Karazhan/Gruul stuff plus pvp /arena/badge gear. We ran ZA yesterday, and Recount was showing me with 500dps on the first boss (bear)... No druid nor shaman on my group, and it's most likely that I will never have one. About the rotation again, most of the time I only have rage to slam. |
If there's absolutely no way you can get a shaman you might want to spec 17/44, it's less reliant on Windfury to keep it's rotation going, although it is a bit harder to gear for it.
Resto Shaman does the trick as well, though not as good.
I have been reading this post since its incarnation. Although I am not geared as well as some of you I dont think my gear is all that bad. I have been using the DPS SS religiously. I am group with a feral druid and sometimes an enh shammy.
But I cannot figure out how to do 1k dps that some of you are obviously attaining. Is it me or is it my raid as a whole?
I am 17/44 spec. And you can link to my gear to the left.
Any pointers, help, boots in the @$$ would be greatly appreciated.
But I cannot figure out how to do 1k dps that some of you are obviously attaining. Is it me or is it my raid as a whole?
I am 17/44 spec. And you can link to my gear to the left.
Any pointers, help, boots in the @$$ would be greatly appreciated.
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Originally Posted by Lopert
I have been reading this post since its incarnation. Although I am not geared as well as some of you I dont think my gear is all that bad. I have been using the DPS SS religiously. I am group with a feral druid and sometimes an enh shammy.
But I cannot figure out how to do 1k dps that some of you are obviously attaining. Is it me or is it my raid as a whole? I am 17/44 spec. And you can link to my gear to the left. Any pointers, help, boots in the @$$ would be greatly appreciated. |
The only thing I assume it could be if there's something wrong with the rotation you are doing in a raid or if you waste rage on abilities (refreshing rampage when there's >5~7seconds left, or refreshing battleshout when it has >15 seconds left).
A thing to also note is that as your gear improves you will be able to fit more heroic strikes into your cycle making for more dps.
Only other pointer I could give you is try to time CD's, having Haste Potion + Heroism + Recklessness up from <19% makes for quite a large dps boost.
If you could post a WWS we could get some more information.
Hope this helps
Sadly our latest TK WWS is borked.
Anyways as for my rotation I am using a macro: /castsequence reset=18 Bloodthirst, Whirlwind, Bloodthirst, Whirlwind, Bloodthirst.
Using cooldowns for HS, BS refresh, and Rampage.
During execute phase I usually switch to 2 daggers for executes.
I do have to comment is that during the middle of fights I find myself unable to dump rage fast enough. I hate to stance switch and lose rage that could be used for damage. Any pointers there?
Oh and my +hit is 208 rating, and I don't gem for +hit (although I have 1).
Anyways as for my rotation I am using a macro: /castsequence reset=18 Bloodthirst, Whirlwind, Bloodthirst, Whirlwind, Bloodthirst.
Using cooldowns for HS, BS refresh, and Rampage.
During execute phase I usually switch to 2 daggers for executes.
I do have to comment is that during the middle of fights I find myself unable to dump rage fast enough. I hate to stance switch and lose rage that could be used for damage. Any pointers there?
Oh and my +hit is 208 rating, and I don't gem for +hit (although I have 1).
A few pointers:
I don't use a macro, you need to prioritize Bloodthirst over WW all the time.
During execute range, don't use daggers, but rather two fast one handed swords/axes/maces/fists. You do less damage with daggers = less rage for executes.
Were you threatcapped when you had too much rage? Otherwise just HS it away.
And one additional, stack consumables, stack buffs. If you're going to pop something, pop everything. I.e. recklessness + DW + trinkets + haste potion + heroism during execute phase will get you a huge DPS boost.
I don't use a macro, you need to prioritize Bloodthirst over WW all the time.
During execute range, don't use daggers, but rather two fast one handed swords/axes/maces/fists. You do less damage with daggers = less rage for executes.
Were you threatcapped when you had too much rage? Otherwise just HS it away.
And one additional, stack consumables, stack buffs. If you're going to pop something, pop everything. I.e. recklessness + DW + trinkets + haste potion + heroism during execute phase will get you a huge DPS boost.
Hello there.
I would like to ask what +hit ammount would be best for warriors in my guild (we currently cleared SSC, only KT left in TK). They are using aroung 170 hit rating at this moment isn't that to low ?
I would like to ask what +hit ammount would be best for warriors in my guild (we currently cleared SSC, only KT left in TK). They are using aroung 170 hit rating at this moment isn't that to low ?
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Originally Posted by Zalein
During execute range, don't use daggers, but rather two fast one handed swords/axes/maces/fists. You do less damage with daggers = less rage for executes.
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Originally Posted by Shadhun
Hello there.
I would like to ask what +hit ammount would be best for warriors in my guild (we currently cleared SSC, only KT left in TK). They are using aroung 170 hit rating at this moment isn't that to low ? |
If they are arms they've overshot the hitcap, A raiding arms warrior needs 9% hit which should be around 150 hit rating of the top of my head.
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Originally Posted by Lopert
During execute phase I usually switch to 2 daggers for executes. I do have to comment is that during the middle of fights I find myself unable to dump rage fast enough. I hate to stance switch and lose rage that could be used for damage. Any pointers there? |
Other then that during Execute phase if you have >30 rage you want to BT, a Bloodthirst will usually do more damage then a 30 rage Execute.
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Originally Posted by Zalein
A few pointers:
I don't use a macro, you need to prioritize Bloodthirst over WW all the time. During execute range, don't use daggers, but rather two fast one handed swords/axes/maces/fists. You do less damage with daggers = less rage for executes. Were you threatcapped when you had too much rage? Otherwise just HS it away. And one additional, stack consumables, stack buffs. If you're going to pop something, pop everything. I.e. recklessness + DW + trinkets + haste potion + heroism during execute phase will get you a huge DPS boost. |
As for the rage dumping yes I am always threat capped when I have too much of it most of the time. I use subtlety to cloak and of course salve. Maybe I start off slower then go hard middle to end..........
Thank you guys for the excellent advice I really do appreciate it. My main was a rogue Pre BC and DPS was easy on it
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Originally Posted by Shadhun
Hello there.
They are using aroung 170 hit rating at this moment isn't that to low ? |
This is my first post and I've been reading thru all these post. First I just want to thank all of you for your imput. I know, now that I've been steered this way, that it will help me a whole lot.
I was fury and have found it difficult to keep up with the dps. Not sure if it was my rotation or whatnot. I've taken a little break and would like to go back to my tried and true MS build. My question today is on MS for end game.
What is the HR that I should shoot for? ATM I'm at 203 if I can remember correctly. I don't have a 2h wep yet but am in the works to aquiring one.
What ap is good to have, is there even a cap?
What crit should I be at? Last I remember it was at 36.54 or somethign like that....not sure what % that is.
I have the rotation down. Just need a little advice on these other things for now.
Ah forgot one. My guild is in BT/HY atm, and I won't be raiding in there till I get myself setup correctly. What 2h wep would benefit the most? S2 axe or gorehowl or anything you know off hand??
Sorry for not coming up with more exacts...I'm at work and can't access some of that info.
Thanks in advance for any and all suggestions/help you guys provide.
I was fury and have found it difficult to keep up with the dps. Not sure if it was my rotation or whatnot. I've taken a little break and would like to go back to my tried and true MS build. My question today is on MS for end game.
What is the HR that I should shoot for? ATM I'm at 203 if I can remember correctly. I don't have a 2h wep yet but am in the works to aquiring one.
What ap is good to have, is there even a cap?
What crit should I be at? Last I remember it was at 36.54 or somethign like that....not sure what % that is.
I have the rotation down. Just need a little advice on these other things for now.
Ah forgot one. My guild is in BT/HY atm, and I won't be raiding in there till I get myself setup correctly. What 2h wep would benefit the most? S2 axe or gorehowl or anything you know off hand??
Sorry for not coming up with more exacts...I'm at work and can't access some of that info.
Thanks in advance for any and all suggestions/help you guys provide.
A reversing parry is exactly what i mean. And regarding the 0.05 second thing - thats 0.05 for every attack. It might even itself out over time, and it might not, but theres definitely a chance that this discrepancy can build up over time.
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Originally Posted by world
A reversing parry is exactly what i mean. And regarding the 0.05 second thing - thats 0.05 for every attack. It might even itself out over time, and it might not, but theres definitely a chance that this discrepancy can build up over time.
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For an axe specced 33/28/0 warrior, what would be a good crit rating? I'm at 37.34% crit unbuffed (at zerker stance) and about 2000 AP (with battleshout).
And.. I still cant do much more than 600dps (without a druid or shaman).
Thanks
And.. I still cant do much more than 600dps (without a druid or shaman).
Thanks
Edited onPatch 2.3.0
As a 33/28 sword spec warrior, with 1834 ap/31.69 crit, I usually sustain about 1k dps with a shaman (no druid), and often less, however not so much now that my guild is delving further into Hyjal/BT. On our first Anetheron kill, I came in doing 1034 DPS, and I really think I ought to be doing more. I use the regular slam rotation- white->slam->special, and don't really lag. I have a few concerns that I hope could be addressed.
Link to gear: The World of Warcraft Armory
1) I run at about 22 fps, but am going to be getting a new pc, running at probably ~80, will I see much of a dps increase from this as my I can time my slams slightly better? (Currently, its not a large problem)
2) I honestly don't really use potions- I figure I'd start using relentless assault flasks, and whatever the best cooldown potion is (can someone tell me?). Will I notice a large dps increase with this?
3) I don't regularly receive LotP, but I possibly could be. Is this a big upgrade to dps? (The spreadsheet has it down as being something like 80 dps?)
4) Should I be switching to two fast 1-h @ 19% to execute, or sustain my slam rotation?
5) Any overall pointers?
~thanks
edit: fixed dps # from 993 to 1034; WWS: Anetheron 1st kill
Link to gear: The World of Warcraft Armory
1) I run at about 22 fps, but am going to be getting a new pc, running at probably ~80, will I see much of a dps increase from this as my I can time my slams slightly better? (Currently, its not a large problem)
2) I honestly don't really use potions- I figure I'd start using relentless assault flasks, and whatever the best cooldown potion is (can someone tell me?). Will I notice a large dps increase with this?
3) I don't regularly receive LotP, but I possibly could be. Is this a big upgrade to dps? (The spreadsheet has it down as being something like 80 dps?)
4) Should I be switching to two fast 1-h @ 19% to execute, or sustain my slam rotation?
5) Any overall pointers?
~thanks
edit: fixed dps # from 993 to 1034; WWS: Anetheron 1st kill
Last edited by Kyrudun : 12/03/07 at 11:47 PM.
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Originally Posted by Hozz
I am 17/44, so not Arms. But we had a night last week where we did all of those bosses in a night so I thought I would link and compare.
I had LOTP and an enhancement Shaman. No BF or Expose in the raid. We do have a Ret Pal though. Anetheron (slept just once) 1891 DPS Kaz'rogal 1952 DPS Gorefiend 2077 DPS My gear is very solid. Cloak, ring, ranged slot upgrades are out there for me, but they are minor. OH Warglaive would obviously give me a big boost, and if I was shooting for personal DPS I could rep Solarian's. But overall I have very good gear, I certainly cant complain. |
So I guess my question is the gear actually scaling that much? Or does WWS not take into consideration things like movement time where you are doing 0 DPS? Is the DPS just calculated different somehow? I just remember in my old guild we had three very solid rogues, all of whom were putting out around 1k sustained DPS according to recount, and that rogue on your Gorefiend WWS is at 2245, haha.
Sorry if this is a silly question, but thanks
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Originally Posted by Amathal
Hello guys! This is my first post, but I do read here quite a bit. I just have one question though that has been bugging me for some time. I played a warrior for a bit in TBC, just up into early SSC/TK. I was our MT, so my DPS experience was lacking, but I feel I was pretty good at it. And I know that you out gear my warrior by quite a bit, but I'm just wondering how those numbers are possible? I looked at your WWS, so its not that I don't believe it, but my guilds have always ran recount and we have always looked at that as being pretty accurate.
So I guess my question is the gear actually scaling that much? Or does WWS not take into consideration things like movement time where you are doing 0 DPS? Is the DPS just calculated different somehow? I just remember in my old guild we had three very solid rogues, all of whom were putting out around 1k sustained DPS according to recount, and that rogue on your Gorefiend WWS is at 2245, haha. Sorry if this is a silly question, but thanks |
Different mods do calculate dps differently, but there isn't really a huge disparity. In the wws my guildmate posted earlier in this thread (where it had me at 2351 dps for gorefiend), both recap and recount were within about 20 dps of that number.
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Originally Posted by Kyrudun
As a 33/28 sword spec warrior, with 1834 ap/31.69 crit, I usually sustain about 1k dps with a shaman (no druid), and often less, however not so much now that my guild is delving further into Hyjal/BT. On our first Anetheron kill, I came in doing 1034 DPS, and I really think I ought to be doing more. I use the regular slam rotation- white->slam->special, and don't really lag. I have a few concerns that I hope could be addressed.
Link to gear: The World of Warcraft Armory 1) I run at about 22 fps, but am going to be getting a new pc, running at probably ~80, will I see much of a dps increase from this as my I can time my slams slightly better? (Currently, its not a large problem) 2) I honestly don't really use potions- I figure I'd start using relentless assault flasks, and whatever the best cooldown potion is (can someone tell me?). Will I notice a large dps increase with this? 3) I don't regularly receive LotP, but I possibly could be. Is this a big upgrade to dps? (The spreadsheet has it down as being something like 80 dps?) 4) Should I be switching to two fast 1-h @ 19% to execute, or sustain my slam rotation? 5) Any overall pointers? ~thanks edit: fixed dps # from 993 to 1034; WWS: Anetheron 1st kill |
2) Use them, they will definitely boost your DPS. Flask + haste/insane strength potions.
3) Like you said, it's around 80DPS.
4) Yes.
5) Get a swing timer add on, it's easy to time the slams correctly that way.
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Originally Posted by vultur
For an axe specced 33/28/0 warrior, what would be a good crit rating? I'm at 37.34% crit unbuffed (at zerker stance) and about 2000 AP (with battleshout).
And.. I still cant do much more than 600dps (without a druid or shaman). Thanks |
It would be nice to maybe tell us what kind of rotation you use and maybe post a WWS of one of your raids so we can possibly help you out where you're doing something wrong
For a swing timer bar I recommend "Ld50_abar" because it has a quartz-like latency bar which allows you to time slams a lot better.
Is there a specific point where using 2x 1Handers and execute spamming surpasses the Slam rotation? And would it still be worth it with only 1/2 Imp Execute?
Is there a specific point where using 2x 1Handers and execute spamming surpasses the Slam rotation? And would it still be worth it with only 1/2 Imp Execute?
Maybe when you have top TOP end gear. For now, I go from doing around 1300 DPS to doing 1900 DPS on execute range swapping for two one handers. Look back a few pages for more info on execute range and WWS reports on it.
Hello,
I have a question:
Which jems would be better to insert in my gear: red (+10 str) or yellow (+10 crit. rating) ?
My specc is 33/28 (2h). My equip is at TK/SSC/HS/BT level atm. Weapon - Soul Cleaver.
I have a question:
Which jems would be better to insert in my gear: red (+10 str) or yellow (+10 crit. rating) ?
My specc is 33/28 (2h). My equip is at TK/SSC/HS/BT level atm. Weapon - Soul Cleaver.
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Originally Posted by Eledorian
No WF gimps your rage generation (being swordspecced helps a little) so it will be hard to keep up the rotation.
It would be nice to maybe tell us what kind of rotation you use and maybe post a WWS of one of your raids so we can possibly help you out where you're doing something wrong |
We have not been raiding much lately...
I use that "white dmg - slam - special" rotation, timing the slam to hit right after the white damage hit. I was with most blues and greens a month ago, and the gear got a lot better, but still the DPS is lacking. I'm kinda lost here. My guild is starting SSC, so gear to me is Karazhan/Gruul stuff plus pvp /arena/badge gear.
We ran ZA yesterday, and Recount was showing me with 500dps on the first boss (bear)... No druid nor shaman on my group, and it's most likely that I will never have one.
About the rotation again, most of the time I only have rage to slam.
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Originally Posted by Ego
Gear does scale very well, but the fights he posted wws for also allow near 100% dps time. By early ssc/tk I'm assuming you mean hydross/lurker and void reaver/alar. The nature of these fights does not allow for as much dps as gorefiend/kaz'rogal/anetheron. Raid makeup also accounts for a lot of disparity in dps. We had an enhancement shaman, feral druid, blood frenzy for about 50% of the fight, expose weakness, and curse of recklessness for that kill.
Different mods do calculate dps differently, but there isn't really a huge disparity. In the wws my guildmate posted earlier in this thread (where it had me at 2351 dps for gorefiend), both recap and recount were within about 20 dps of that number. |
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Originally Posted by vultur
Heya!
We have not been raiding much lately... I use that "white dmg - slam - special" rotation, timing the slam to hit right after the white damage hit. I was with most blues and greens a month ago, and the gear got a lot better, but still the DPS is lacking. I'm kinda lost here. My guild is starting SSC, so gear to me is Karazhan/Gruul stuff plus pvp /arena/badge gear. We ran ZA yesterday, and Recount was showing me with 500dps on the first boss (bear)... No druid nor shaman on my group, and it's most likely that I will never have one. About the rotation again, most of the time I only have rage to slam. |
If there's absolutely no way you can get a shaman you might want to spec 17/44, it's less reliant on Windfury to keep it's rotation going, although it is a bit harder to gear for it.
Resto Shaman does the trick as well, though not as good.
I have been reading this post since its incarnation. Although I am not geared as well as some of you I dont think my gear is all that bad. I have been using the DPS SS religiously. I am group with a feral druid and sometimes an enh shammy.
But I cannot figure out how to do 1k dps that some of you are obviously attaining. Is it me or is it my raid as a whole?
I am 17/44 spec. And you can link to my gear to the left.
Any pointers, help, boots in the @$$ would be greatly appreciated.
But I cannot figure out how to do 1k dps that some of you are obviously attaining. Is it me or is it my raid as a whole?
I am 17/44 spec. And you can link to my gear to the left.
Any pointers, help, boots in the @$$ would be greatly appreciated.
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Originally Posted by Lopert
I have been reading this post since its incarnation. Although I am not geared as well as some of you I dont think my gear is all that bad. I have been using the DPS SS religiously. I am group with a feral druid and sometimes an enh shammy.
But I cannot figure out how to do 1k dps that some of you are obviously attaining. Is it me or is it my raid as a whole? I am 17/44 spec. And you can link to my gear to the left. Any pointers, help, boots in the @$$ would be greatly appreciated. |
The only thing I assume it could be if there's something wrong with the rotation you are doing in a raid or if you waste rage on abilities (refreshing rampage when there's >5~7seconds left, or refreshing battleshout when it has >15 seconds left).
A thing to also note is that as your gear improves you will be able to fit more heroic strikes into your cycle making for more dps.
Only other pointer I could give you is try to time CD's, having Haste Potion + Heroism + Recklessness up from <19% makes for quite a large dps boost.
If you could post a WWS we could get some more information.
Hope this helps
Sadly our latest TK WWS is borked.
Anyways as for my rotation I am using a macro: /castsequence reset=18 Bloodthirst, Whirlwind, Bloodthirst, Whirlwind, Bloodthirst.
Using cooldowns for HS, BS refresh, and Rampage.
During execute phase I usually switch to 2 daggers for executes.
I do have to comment is that during the middle of fights I find myself unable to dump rage fast enough. I hate to stance switch and lose rage that could be used for damage. Any pointers there?
Oh and my +hit is 208 rating, and I don't gem for +hit (although I have 1).
Anyways as for my rotation I am using a macro: /castsequence reset=18 Bloodthirst, Whirlwind, Bloodthirst, Whirlwind, Bloodthirst.
Using cooldowns for HS, BS refresh, and Rampage.
During execute phase I usually switch to 2 daggers for executes.
I do have to comment is that during the middle of fights I find myself unable to dump rage fast enough. I hate to stance switch and lose rage that could be used for damage. Any pointers there?
Oh and my +hit is 208 rating, and I don't gem for +hit (although I have 1).
A few pointers:
I don't use a macro, you need to prioritize Bloodthirst over WW all the time.
During execute range, don't use daggers, but rather two fast one handed swords/axes/maces/fists. You do less damage with daggers = less rage for executes.
Were you threatcapped when you had too much rage? Otherwise just HS it away.
And one additional, stack consumables, stack buffs. If you're going to pop something, pop everything. I.e. recklessness + DW + trinkets + haste potion + heroism during execute phase will get you a huge DPS boost.
I don't use a macro, you need to prioritize Bloodthirst over WW all the time.
During execute range, don't use daggers, but rather two fast one handed swords/axes/maces/fists. You do less damage with daggers = less rage for executes.
Were you threatcapped when you had too much rage? Otherwise just HS it away.
And one additional, stack consumables, stack buffs. If you're going to pop something, pop everything. I.e. recklessness + DW + trinkets + haste potion + heroism during execute phase will get you a huge DPS boost.
Hello there.
I would like to ask what +hit ammount would be best for warriors in my guild (we currently cleared SSC, only KT left in TK). They are using aroung 170 hit rating at this moment isn't that to low ?
I would like to ask what +hit ammount would be best for warriors in my guild (we currently cleared SSC, only KT left in TK). They are using aroung 170 hit rating at this moment isn't that to low ?
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Originally Posted by Zalein
During execute range, don't use daggers, but rather two fast one handed swords/axes/maces/fists. You do less damage with daggers = less rage for executes.
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Originally Posted by Shadhun
Hello there.
I would like to ask what +hit ammount would be best for warriors in my guild (we currently cleared SSC, only KT left in TK). They are using aroung 170 hit rating at this moment isn't that to low ? |
If they are arms they've overshot the hitcap, A raiding arms warrior needs 9% hit which should be around 150 hit rating of the top of my head.
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Originally Posted by Lopert
During execute phase I usually switch to 2 daggers for executes. I do have to comment is that during the middle of fights I find myself unable to dump rage fast enough. I hate to stance switch and lose rage that could be used for damage. Any pointers there? |
Other then that during Execute phase if you have >30 rage you want to BT, a Bloodthirst will usually do more damage then a 30 rage Execute.
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Originally Posted by Zalein
A few pointers:
I don't use a macro, you need to prioritize Bloodthirst over WW all the time. During execute range, don't use daggers, but rather two fast one handed swords/axes/maces/fists. You do less damage with daggers = less rage for executes. Were you threatcapped when you had too much rage? Otherwise just HS it away. And one additional, stack consumables, stack buffs. If you're going to pop something, pop everything. I.e. recklessness + DW + trinkets + haste potion + heroism during execute phase will get you a huge DPS boost. |
As for the rage dumping yes I am always threat capped when I have too much of it most of the time. I use subtlety to cloak and of course salve. Maybe I start off slower then go hard middle to end..........
Thank you guys for the excellent advice I really do appreciate it. My main was a rogue Pre BC and DPS was easy on it
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Originally Posted by Shadhun
Hello there.
They are using aroung 170 hit rating at this moment isn't that to low ? |
This is my first post and I've been reading thru all these post. First I just want to thank all of you for your imput. I know, now that I've been steered this way, that it will help me a whole lot.
I was fury and have found it difficult to keep up with the dps. Not sure if it was my rotation or whatnot. I've taken a little break and would like to go back to my tried and true MS build. My question today is on MS for end game.
What is the HR that I should shoot for? ATM I'm at 203 if I can remember correctly. I don't have a 2h wep yet but am in the works to aquiring one.
What ap is good to have, is there even a cap?
What crit should I be at? Last I remember it was at 36.54 or somethign like that....not sure what % that is.
I have the rotation down. Just need a little advice on these other things for now.
Ah forgot one. My guild is in BT/HY atm, and I won't be raiding in there till I get myself setup correctly. What 2h wep would benefit the most? S2 axe or gorehowl or anything you know off hand??
Sorry for not coming up with more exacts...I'm at work and can't access some of that info.
Thanks in advance for any and all suggestions/help you guys provide.
I was fury and have found it difficult to keep up with the dps. Not sure if it was my rotation or whatnot. I've taken a little break and would like to go back to my tried and true MS build. My question today is on MS for end game.
What is the HR that I should shoot for? ATM I'm at 203 if I can remember correctly. I don't have a 2h wep yet but am in the works to aquiring one.
What ap is good to have, is there even a cap?
What crit should I be at? Last I remember it was at 36.54 or somethign like that....not sure what % that is.
I have the rotation down. Just need a little advice on these other things for now.
Ah forgot one. My guild is in BT/HY atm, and I won't be raiding in there till I get myself setup correctly. What 2h wep would benefit the most? S2 axe or gorehowl or anything you know off hand??
Sorry for not coming up with more exacts...I'm at work and can't access some of that info.
Thanks in advance for any and all suggestions/help you guys provide.
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Originally Posted by vulgar
This is my first post and I've been reading thru all these post. First I just want to thank all of you for your imput. I know, now that I've been steered this way, that it will help me a whole lot.
I was fury and have found it difficult to keep up with the dps. Not sure if it was my rotation or whatnot. I've taken a little break and would like to go back to my tried and true MS build. My question today is on MS for end game. What is the HR that I should shoot for? ATM I'm at 203 if I can remember correctly. I don't have a 2h wep yet but am in the works to aquiring one. What ap is good to have, is there even a cap? What crit should I be at? Last I remember it was at 36.54 or somethign like that....not sure what % that is. I have the rotation down. Just need a little advice on these other things for now. Ah forgot one. My guild is in BT/HY atm, and I won't be raiding in there till I get myself setup correctly. What 2h wep would benefit the most? S2 axe or gorehowl or anything you know off hand?? Sorry for not coming up with more exacts...I'm at work and can't access some of that info. Thanks in advance for any and all suggestions/help you guys provide. |
You should have 9% hit to reach the cap (which is around 150ish hit rating).
Anything around 30% crit unbuffed is good.
AP depends on your gear but if you're in a BT/MH guild I'd say you want to aim for atleast 1800++ in arms gear for starters.
Edited onPatch 2.3.0
I'm an Orc. Do you think the sword would still benefit me more so with my racial traits?
Also what enchant would be better.....executioner,mongoose,str?
Also what enchant would be better.....executioner,mongoose,str?
Last edited by vulgar : 12/04/07 at 6:14 PM.
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Originally Posted by Lopert
OK so throw the macro away and choose Bloodthirst over everything else, GOT IT.
As for the rage dumping yes I am always threat capped when I have too much of it most of the time. I use subtlety to cloak and of course salve. Maybe I start off slower then go hard middle to end.......... Thank you guys for the excellent advice I really do appreciate it. My main was a rogue Pre BC and DPS was easy on it  |
Macro works just fine if you have rage to sustain it and press it all the time. I would lose more dps on keeping track of two keybinds than I do by using the macro (but maybe that's just me
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Originally Posted by vulgar
I'm an Orc. Do you think the sword would still benefit me more so with my racial traits?
Also what enchant would be better.....executioner,mongoose,str? |
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Originally Posted by Hoonboof
Axe with executioner.
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Because of your racial bonus, I'd go with this. If you have low end gear, it's also good to have extra crit so you can keep BF up consistently.
I haven't been able to get a single WWS in 3 weeks on Teron, ghost hate me a lot. However, been seeing very similar numbers (about a 50-100 dps variance) between 17/44 and 3/43/15. When they change defiance's expertise to work in all stances, I'm pretty sure 3/43/15 will be my spec of choice.
Also for all the posters clamoring for crit, don't. For every item except [Dreadboots of the Legion], [Bold Crimson Spinel] should go in every slot. This of course excludes the one or two items it takes to get your [Relentless Earthstorm Diamond] requirements. I chose [Onslaught Shoulderblades] and [Red Belt of Battle] to socket properly, as those are both the best in their slot, as well as have decent bonuses.
As for threat, with 17/44 and full buffs, I got 1900 dps before I got ghosted about 3 minutes in (before execute/recklessness) I was about a little over half of my tanks aggro. I literally don't even watch threat meters on fights anymore past the first 30 seconds, expertise is that overpowered. Point your tanks to the Protection Warrior thread on this forum. He really knows what he's talking about :P.
Also for all the posters clamoring for crit, don't. For every item except [Dreadboots of the Legion], [Bold Crimson Spinel] should go in every slot. This of course excludes the one or two items it takes to get your [Relentless Earthstorm Diamond] requirements. I chose [Onslaught Shoulderblades] and [Red Belt of Battle] to socket properly, as those are both the best in their slot, as well as have decent bonuses.
As for threat, with 17/44 and full buffs, I got 1900 dps before I got ghosted about 3 minutes in (before execute/recklessness) I was about a little over half of my tanks aggro. I literally don't even watch threat meters on fights anymore past the first 30 seconds, expertise is that overpowered. Point your tanks to the Protection Warrior thread on this forum. He really knows what he's talking about :P.
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Originally Posted by Quixotic
Also for all the posters clamoring for crit, don't. For every item except [Dreadboots of the Legion], [Bold Crimson Spinel] should go in every slot. This of course excludes the one or two items it takes to get your [Relentless Earthstorm Diamond] requirements. I chose [Onslaught Shoulderblades] and [Red Belt of Battle] to socket properly, as those are both the best in their slot, as well as have decent bonuses.
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I got [Furious Shackles], but somehow I'm not thinking that a loss of 1.08% Hit/.35% Crit is worth 26AP(Assuming +10 str gem in it).
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Originally Posted by Emeraude
I do the exact same thing, except I was using [Shifting Tanzanite] in my [Bracers of Eradication], and I haven't had the heart to ask for a Crimson to change it. Though now all of my gear has 3 blues, I'm wondering if maybe I should change it...
I got [Furious Shackles], but somehow I'm not thinking that a loss of 1.08% Hit/.35% Crit is worth 26AP(Assuming +10 str gem in it). |
[Furious Shackles] Should really be re-itemised, they're just not any good. On another note the flurry bug and whirlwind offhand not proccing flurry is going to be fixed. After 2.3.2 though. Don't see why they can't just hotfix it. Which should result in a nice bit of extra flurry uptime.
Speaking of which (re-itemization); Why isn't [Belt of Seething Fury] being re-itemized?
I have it, I've never used it. I took it, hoping that it might get buffed/tweaked some day.
I have it, I've never used it. I took it, hoping that it might get buffed/tweaked some day.
As a long time DPS warrior I continually see posts referring to go with at least 14% hit, now it's 9-12. Max crit! Max AP! Now add in armor penetration. I used to be an AP/+hit freak and decided to join the bandwagon and drop some of my +hit and AP for alot more +crit. We are now 3/4 TK and 5/6 SSC and more armor pentration gear is cropping up in random places. What's interesting is that certain min maxes of attributes follow your progression. For example, I'd say that more hit and AP are important while learning KZ and Gruul/Mag but as you get into SSC/TK you'll see more of a push towards Crit and of course with BT/Hyjal guilds it seems like armor penetration is all the rage.
So my question is, from the experience of EJ posters, especially around armor penetration and given the fact that the more the better, at what point do you start feeling good about ditching crit/hit/ap for +armor penetration? I have the trinket from heroic BF and can easily get some of the S3 honor + arena point gear to start pushing it but it's really hard to quantify the trade off. Is it best to hold off on Armor Pentration until you can say get at least x number of armor penetration to make it worth it?
I suppose the fundamental question is what is the valuation of armor penetration and what are the latest benchmarks for the key attributes.
Unbuffed with BS I'm at..
33.5% crit
2k AP
226 hit rating
17/44/0 spec
So my question is, from the experience of EJ posters, especially around armor penetration and given the fact that the more the better, at what point do you start feeling good about ditching crit/hit/ap for +armor penetration? I have the trinket from heroic BF and can easily get some of the S3 honor + arena point gear to start pushing it but it's really hard to quantify the trade off. Is it best to hold off on Armor Pentration until you can say get at least x number of armor penetration to make it worth it?
I suppose the fundamental question is what is the valuation of armor penetration and what are the latest benchmarks for the key attributes.
Unbuffed with BS I'm at..
33.5% crit
2k AP
226 hit rating
17/44/0 spec
Stats are interconnected and scale differently.
There is no particular point in progression where anything with a certain stat by default becomes better.
All stats contributes towards the usefullness of an item. Armor penetration might be a really good stat but choker of the serated blades is not going to be better than choker of endless nightmares simply because it isnt itemized as well.
You need to look at an item as a whole and not at the particular stat types it has.
This is why things like SEP values and spreadsheets are useful, they allow you to evalue things in a broader perspective.
There is no particular point in progression where anything with a certain stat by default becomes better.
All stats contributes towards the usefullness of an item. Armor penetration might be a really good stat but choker of the serated blades is not going to be better than choker of endless nightmares simply because it isnt itemized as well.
You need to look at an item as a whole and not at the particular stat types it has.
This is why things like SEP values and spreadsheets are useful, they allow you to evalue things in a broader perspective.
Correct me if I'm wrong but adding in 50 armor penetration when you have zero to start with doesn't return as much value as say 20 crit rating or 60 AP etc. However, if you already have 600 armor penetration and you add in another 50 the benefit has increased due to increased returns on more armor pentration. This is the only stat that has this dynamic as far as I understand it. I just envision a graph that shows a point at which a certain value of armor penetration is significant to warrant losing values in other attributes or is it that effective at point armor penetration 1?
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Originally Posted by Quixotic
Also for all the posters clamoring for crit, don't. For every item except [Dreadboots of the Legion], [Bold Crimson Spinel] should go in every slot. This of course excludes the one or two items it takes to get your [Relentless Earthstorm Diamond] requirements. I chose [Onslaught Shoulderblades] and [Red Belt of Battle] to socket properly, as those are both the best in their slot, as well as have decent bonuses.
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Now whilst the spreadsheet has been going through quite a few changes recently, this still suggests to me that maybe we're undervalueing crit. I recently set up a Power Auras icon for Flurry, so I have an obvious visual cue for when I'm flurried and when I'm not, and it's quite enlightening how little time I actually do have flurry up. I guess partly this is due to the current flurry bugs (which supposedly will be fixed in 2.4), but it still seems that with flurry, impale, and RED, that it's not entirely possible for crit to be better than Str.
Does anyone have any evidence other than the spreadsheet for either point of view?
Trying to compare two items, and would like some insight. Comparing the S3 legs and Greaves of the Blood Warder, socketing with +8str/+4crit +4str/+4str +6stam. So you'd have...
[Vengeful Gladiator's Plate Legguards]
51 str
70 sta
12 hit
47 crit
84 armor ignore
[Greaves of the Bloodwarder]
69 str
52 sta
0 hit
35 crit
0 armor ignore
Is the +18str of GotBW enough to tip the tides over the stat increases across the board of the S3 legs?
For an arms warrior. Initially, I'm thinking AP isn't playing as big a part to an arms warrior over a fury warrior, so the other stat increases are a much better bet.
[Vengeful Gladiator's Plate Legguards]
51 str
70 sta
12 hit
47 crit
84 armor ignore
[Greaves of the Bloodwarder]
69 str
52 sta
0 hit
35 crit
0 armor ignore
Is the +18str of GotBW enough to tip the tides over the stat increases across the board of the S3 legs?
For an arms warrior. Initially, I'm thinking AP isn't playing as big a part to an arms warrior over a fury warrior, so the other stat increases are a much better bet.
Edited onPatch 2.3.0
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Originally Posted by Moogul
Does anyone have any evidence other than the spreadsheet for either point of view?
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A few months ago, I drew similar conclusions to you, that +crit gave an overall greater dps increase than +str, but that it was a very marginal increase. The thing is, the better gear you get (and the higher your base hits are) the more valuable +crit is in comparison to +str.
Mostly I have socketed an even mix of +crit gems and +crit/+str orange gems, with 2 green gems for the meta bonus.
In all, I believe it to be a balancing act, rather than there being a clear favourite. You need to keep your STR high enough that you inflict sufficient non-crit damage to gain rage to power your rotation, for when you're in an unlucky streak of non-crits.
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Originally Posted by Devimus
Trying to compare two items, and would like some insight.
... Is the +18str of GotBW enough to tip the tides over the stat increases across the board of the S3 legs? |
+18 str
vs
+12 crit rating
+12 hit rating
+84 armor ignore
+18 stam
The S3 legs win easily for both Fury or Arms dps. If you're arms, and you don't need the +hit (you already got 9%) then it means you can afford to lose +hit from another location as an upgrade.
Simply put though, +12 crit rating and +84 armor ignore is better than +18 str, but not by a huge amount. Add in the extra armour, stamina and that +hit and the S3 legs are a clear winner.
Last edited by amethyst : 12/05/07 at 9:57 AM.
That's the problem in and of itself. Even as it is now with my fury build, in a raid situation I'm never rage starved and I'm throwing up HS on most of the available GCDs. Question now is to simply just do more damage with what I've got available to me. Naturally, the biggest improvement will be in just an upgraded weapon (decap + s2 fast OH) /hate alar + tidewalker.
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Originally Posted by Rishina
[Furious Shackles] Should really be re-itemised, they're just not any good. On another note the flurry bug and whirlwind offhand not proccing flurry is going to be fixed. After 2.3.2 though. Don't see why they can't just hotfix it. Which should result in a nice bit of extra flurry uptime.
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As for crit vs str...the spreadsheet starts to value crit over str at about T5 levels of gear, with full raid buffs. As you get better gear, crit gets even more heavily favored. Obviously crit scales better than AP but how accurate is the spreadsheet? Not sure. If you favor STR or CRIT or a mix, with your gems, I dont think you are gimping yourself.
My typical spec is 17/44, with 2.3 i moved my 2 points from improved execute to weapon mastery. My toon is human and I dual wield maces and my gloves are Grips of Deftness. That is a total of 20 weapon expertise. 20 x .25 = 5% reduction to my targets dodge. It is my understanding that the base dodge of a mob is 5.6%. Should I only be putting 1 point in Weapon Mastery for a total of 6% reduction to my targets dodge and then put the last point in improved execute?
[Grips of Deftness] give 15 expertise rating, not 15 expertise. Wowhead says 15 expertise rating = 4 expertise, so you should only have 5 from the racial and 4 from the gloves so you should still be well under whatever the actual cap is for dodge..
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Originally Posted by mikebro
[Grips of Deftness] give 15 expertise rating, not 15 expertise. Wowhead says 15 expertise rating = 4 expertise, so you should only have 5 from the racial and 4 from the gloves so you should still be well under whatever the actual cap is for dodge..
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Originally Posted by Rishina
[Furious Shackles] Should really be re-itemised, they're just not any good. On another note the flurry bug and whirlwind offhand not proccing flurry is going to be fixed. After 2.3.2 though. Don't see why they can't just hotfix it. Which should result in a nice bit of extra flurry uptime.
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Originally Posted by Emeraude
Anyone know how to take it apart backwards through item budgeting to find out if it is in fact not itemized correctly? If it was you could submit it as a bug to be looked at. >_>
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Originally Posted by Moogul
Now, I've been wondering about this the last couple of days. Up til recently, I'd been a strong supporter of strength over all (taking into account Bok, Imp Zerker, Bloodthirst etc. you can easily see how good strength is for warriors), and socketing all my slots with +8str (My guild only killed Kael last week, so no BT gems for me yet). However, a few days ago after thinking about some in depth gear changes, I decided to re-download the warrior dps spreadsheet (which I had not used in a long time). Setting up my current level of gear (~3 pieces T5 level, the rest T4/Karazhan/Heroic), the latest version of the spreadsheet said that socketing crit instead of strength would be a dps increase for me - I think it was about 1-2dps per gem changed.
Now whilst the spreadsheet has been going through quite a few changes recently, this still suggests to me that maybe we're undervalueing crit. I recently set up a Power Auras icon for Flurry, so I have an obvious visual cue for when I'm flurried and when I'm not, and it's quite enlightening how little time I actually do have flurry up. I guess partly this is due to the current flurry bugs (which supposedly will be fixed in 2.4), but it still seems that with flurry, impale, and RED, that it's not entirely possible for crit to be better than Str. Does anyone have any evidence other than the spreadsheet for either point of view? |
The problem that warriors have to realize is, while all of our stats are good, they increase the value of each other, so stacking any one stat, be it STR/AP when you have 25% unbuffed crit, or 37% unbuffed crit when you have 1600 ap, or 300 hit rating when you have 1600 ap and 25% crit is silly. Get a reasonable amount of hit rating, but never gem for it. Follow socket bonuses until you have a decent amount of crit, then stack strength gems. Get the item that is best itemized for dps in every slot and go from there.
I had 34% crit unbuffed recently, switched 2% of it, for some ArP and saw a pretty huge increase in damage, and my flurry uptime didn't take that big of a hit either. Hopefully the hot fixes will also raise the flurry uptime as well which reduces the dependance on crit even further.
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Originally Posted by vulgar
This is my first post and I've been reading thru all these post. First I just want to thank all of you for your imput. I know, now that I've been steered this way, that it will help me a whole lot.
I was fury and have found it difficult to keep up with the dps. Not sure if it was my rotation or whatnot. I've taken a little break and would like to go back to my tried and true MS build. My question today is on MS for end game. What is the HR that I should shoot for? ATM I'm at 203 if I can remember correctly. I don't have a 2h wep yet but am in the works to aquiring one. What ap is good to have, is there even a cap? What crit should I be at? Last I remember it was at 36.54 or somethign like that....not sure what % that is. I have the rotation down. Just need a little advice on these other things for now. Ah forgot one. My guild is in BT/HY atm, and I won't be raiding in there till I get myself setup correctly. What 2h wep would benefit the most? S2 axe or gorehowl or anything you know off hand?? Sorry for not coming up with more exacts...I'm at work and can't access some of that info. Thanks in advance for any and all suggestions/help you guys provide. |
You should have 9% hit to reach the cap (which is around 150ish hit rating).
Anything around 30% crit unbuffed is good.
AP depends on your gear but if you're in a BT/MH guild I'd say you want to aim for atleast 1800++ in arms gear for starters.
Edited onPatch 2.3.0
I'm an Orc. Do you think the sword would still benefit me more so with my racial traits?
Also what enchant would be better.....executioner,mongoose,str?
Also what enchant would be better.....executioner,mongoose,str?
Last edited by vulgar : 12/04/07 at 6:14 PM.
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Originally Posted by Lopert
OK so throw the macro away and choose Bloodthirst over everything else, GOT IT.
As for the rage dumping yes I am always threat capped when I have too much of it most of the time. I use subtlety to cloak and of course salve. Maybe I start off slower then go hard middle to end.......... Thank you guys for the excellent advice I really do appreciate it. My main was a rogue Pre BC and DPS was easy on it |
Macro works just fine if you have rage to sustain it and press it all the time. I would lose more dps on keeping track of two keybinds than I do by using the macro (but maybe that's just me
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Originally Posted by vulgar
I'm an Orc. Do you think the sword would still benefit me more so with my racial traits?
Also what enchant would be better.....executioner,mongoose,str? |
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Originally Posted by Hoonboof
Axe with executioner.
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Because of your racial bonus, I'd go with this. If you have low end gear, it's also good to have extra crit so you can keep BF up consistently.
I haven't been able to get a single WWS in 3 weeks on Teron, ghost hate me a lot. However, been seeing very similar numbers (about a 50-100 dps variance) between 17/44 and 3/43/15. When they change defiance's expertise to work in all stances, I'm pretty sure 3/43/15 will be my spec of choice.
Also for all the posters clamoring for crit, don't. For every item except [Dreadboots of the Legion], [Bold Crimson Spinel] should go in every slot. This of course excludes the one or two items it takes to get your [Relentless Earthstorm Diamond] requirements. I chose [Onslaught Shoulderblades] and [Red Belt of Battle] to socket properly, as those are both the best in their slot, as well as have decent bonuses.
As for threat, with 17/44 and full buffs, I got 1900 dps before I got ghosted about 3 minutes in (before execute/recklessness) I was about a little over half of my tanks aggro. I literally don't even watch threat meters on fights anymore past the first 30 seconds, expertise is that overpowered. Point your tanks to the Protection Warrior thread on this forum. He really knows what he's talking about :P.
Also for all the posters clamoring for crit, don't. For every item except [Dreadboots of the Legion], [Bold Crimson Spinel] should go in every slot. This of course excludes the one or two items it takes to get your [Relentless Earthstorm Diamond] requirements. I chose [Onslaught Shoulderblades] and [Red Belt of Battle] to socket properly, as those are both the best in their slot, as well as have decent bonuses.
As for threat, with 17/44 and full buffs, I got 1900 dps before I got ghosted about 3 minutes in (before execute/recklessness) I was about a little over half of my tanks aggro. I literally don't even watch threat meters on fights anymore past the first 30 seconds, expertise is that overpowered. Point your tanks to the Protection Warrior thread on this forum. He really knows what he's talking about :P.
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Originally Posted by Quixotic
Also for all the posters clamoring for crit, don't. For every item except [Dreadboots of the Legion], [Bold Crimson Spinel] should go in every slot. This of course excludes the one or two items it takes to get your [Relentless Earthstorm Diamond] requirements. I chose [Onslaught Shoulderblades] and [Red Belt of Battle] to socket properly, as those are both the best in their slot, as well as have decent bonuses.
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I got [Furious Shackles], but somehow I'm not thinking that a loss of 1.08% Hit/.35% Crit is worth 26AP(Assuming +10 str gem in it).
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Originally Posted by Emeraude
I do the exact same thing, except I was using [Shifting Tanzanite] in my [Bracers of Eradication], and I haven't had the heart to ask for a Crimson to change it. Though now all of my gear has 3 blues, I'm wondering if maybe I should change it...
I got [Furious Shackles], but somehow I'm not thinking that a loss of 1.08% Hit/.35% Crit is worth 26AP(Assuming +10 str gem in it). |
[Furious Shackles] Should really be re-itemised, they're just not any good. On another note the flurry bug and whirlwind offhand not proccing flurry is going to be fixed. After 2.3.2 though. Don't see why they can't just hotfix it. Which should result in a nice bit of extra flurry uptime.
Speaking of which (re-itemization); Why isn't [Belt of Seething Fury] being re-itemized?
I have it, I've never used it. I took it, hoping that it might get buffed/tweaked some day.
I have it, I've never used it. I took it, hoping that it might get buffed/tweaked some day.
As a long time DPS warrior I continually see posts referring to go with at least 14% hit, now it's 9-12. Max crit! Max AP! Now add in armor penetration. I used to be an AP/+hit freak and decided to join the bandwagon and drop some of my +hit and AP for alot more +crit. We are now 3/4 TK and 5/6 SSC and more armor pentration gear is cropping up in random places. What's interesting is that certain min maxes of attributes follow your progression. For example, I'd say that more hit and AP are important while learning KZ and Gruul/Mag but as you get into SSC/TK you'll see more of a push towards Crit and of course with BT/Hyjal guilds it seems like armor penetration is all the rage.
So my question is, from the experience of EJ posters, especially around armor penetration and given the fact that the more the better, at what point do you start feeling good about ditching crit/hit/ap for +armor penetration? I have the trinket from heroic BF and can easily get some of the S3 honor + arena point gear to start pushing it but it's really hard to quantify the trade off. Is it best to hold off on Armor Pentration until you can say get at least x number of armor penetration to make it worth it?
I suppose the fundamental question is what is the valuation of armor penetration and what are the latest benchmarks for the key attributes.
Unbuffed with BS I'm at..
33.5% crit
2k AP
226 hit rating
17/44/0 spec
So my question is, from the experience of EJ posters, especially around armor penetration and given the fact that the more the better, at what point do you start feeling good about ditching crit/hit/ap for +armor penetration? I have the trinket from heroic BF and can easily get some of the S3 honor + arena point gear to start pushing it but it's really hard to quantify the trade off. Is it best to hold off on Armor Pentration until you can say get at least x number of armor penetration to make it worth it?
I suppose the fundamental question is what is the valuation of armor penetration and what are the latest benchmarks for the key attributes.
Unbuffed with BS I'm at..
33.5% crit
2k AP
226 hit rating
17/44/0 spec
Stats are interconnected and scale differently.
There is no particular point in progression where anything with a certain stat by default becomes better.
All stats contributes towards the usefullness of an item. Armor penetration might be a really good stat but choker of the serated blades is not going to be better than choker of endless nightmares simply because it isnt itemized as well.
You need to look at an item as a whole and not at the particular stat types it has.
This is why things like SEP values and spreadsheets are useful, they allow you to evalue things in a broader perspective.
There is no particular point in progression where anything with a certain stat by default becomes better.
All stats contributes towards the usefullness of an item. Armor penetration might be a really good stat but choker of the serated blades is not going to be better than choker of endless nightmares simply because it isnt itemized as well.
You need to look at an item as a whole and not at the particular stat types it has.
This is why things like SEP values and spreadsheets are useful, they allow you to evalue things in a broader perspective.
Correct me if I'm wrong but adding in 50 armor penetration when you have zero to start with doesn't return as much value as say 20 crit rating or 60 AP etc. However, if you already have 600 armor penetration and you add in another 50 the benefit has increased due to increased returns on more armor pentration. This is the only stat that has this dynamic as far as I understand it. I just envision a graph that shows a point at which a certain value of armor penetration is significant to warrant losing values in other attributes or is it that effective at point armor penetration 1?
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Originally Posted by Quixotic
Also for all the posters clamoring for crit, don't. For every item except [Dreadboots of the Legion], [Bold Crimson Spinel] should go in every slot. This of course excludes the one or two items it takes to get your [Relentless Earthstorm Diamond] requirements. I chose [Onslaught Shoulderblades] and [Red Belt of Battle] to socket properly, as those are both the best in their slot, as well as have decent bonuses.
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Now whilst the spreadsheet has been going through quite a few changes recently, this still suggests to me that maybe we're undervalueing crit. I recently set up a Power Auras icon for Flurry, so I have an obvious visual cue for when I'm flurried and when I'm not, and it's quite enlightening how little time I actually do have flurry up. I guess partly this is due to the current flurry bugs (which supposedly will be fixed in 2.4), but it still seems that with flurry, impale, and RED, that it's not entirely possible for crit to be better than Str.
Does anyone have any evidence other than the spreadsheet for either point of view?
Trying to compare two items, and would like some insight. Comparing the S3 legs and Greaves of the Blood Warder, socketing with +8str/+4crit +4str/+4str +6stam. So you'd have...
[Vengeful Gladiator's Plate Legguards]
51 str
70 sta
12 hit
47 crit
84 armor ignore
[Greaves of the Bloodwarder]
69 str
52 sta
0 hit
35 crit
0 armor ignore
Is the +18str of GotBW enough to tip the tides over the stat increases across the board of the S3 legs?
For an arms warrior. Initially, I'm thinking AP isn't playing as big a part to an arms warrior over a fury warrior, so the other stat increases are a much better bet.
[Vengeful Gladiator's Plate Legguards]
51 str
70 sta
12 hit
47 crit
84 armor ignore
[Greaves of the Bloodwarder]
69 str
52 sta
0 hit
35 crit
0 armor ignore
Is the +18str of GotBW enough to tip the tides over the stat increases across the board of the S3 legs?
For an arms warrior. Initially, I'm thinking AP isn't playing as big a part to an arms warrior over a fury warrior, so the other stat increases are a much better bet.
Edited onPatch 2.3.0
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Originally Posted by Moogul
Does anyone have any evidence other than the spreadsheet for either point of view?
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A few months ago, I drew similar conclusions to you, that +crit gave an overall greater dps increase than +str, but that it was a very marginal increase. The thing is, the better gear you get (and the higher your base hits are) the more valuable +crit is in comparison to +str.
Mostly I have socketed an even mix of +crit gems and +crit/+str orange gems, with 2 green gems for the meta bonus.
In all, I believe it to be a balancing act, rather than there being a clear favourite. You need to keep your STR high enough that you inflict sufficient non-crit damage to gain rage to power your rotation, for when you're in an unlucky streak of non-crits.
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Originally Posted by Devimus
Trying to compare two items, and would like some insight.
... Is the +18str of GotBW enough to tip the tides over the stat increases across the board of the S3 legs? |
+18 str
vs
+12 crit rating
+12 hit rating
+84 armor ignore
+18 stam
The S3 legs win easily for both Fury or Arms dps. If you're arms, and you don't need the +hit (you already got 9%) then it means you can afford to lose +hit from another location as an upgrade.
Simply put though, +12 crit rating and +84 armor ignore is better than +18 str, but not by a huge amount. Add in the extra armour, stamina and that +hit and the S3 legs are a clear winner.
Last edited by amethyst : 12/05/07 at 9:57 AM.
That's the problem in and of itself. Even as it is now with my fury build, in a raid situation I'm never rage starved and I'm throwing up HS on most of the available GCDs. Question now is to simply just do more damage with what I've got available to me. Naturally, the biggest improvement will be in just an upgraded weapon (decap + s2 fast OH) /hate alar + tidewalker.
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Originally Posted by Rishina
[Furious Shackles] Should really be re-itemised, they're just not any good. On another note the flurry bug and whirlwind offhand not proccing flurry is going to be fixed. After 2.3.2 though. Don't see why they can't just hotfix it. Which should result in a nice bit of extra flurry uptime.
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As for crit vs str...the spreadsheet starts to value crit over str at about T5 levels of gear, with full raid buffs. As you get better gear, crit gets even more heavily favored. Obviously crit scales better than AP but how accurate is the spreadsheet? Not sure. If you favor STR or CRIT or a mix, with your gems, I dont think you are gimping yourself.
My typical spec is 17/44, with 2.3 i moved my 2 points from improved execute to weapon mastery. My toon is human and I dual wield maces and my gloves are Grips of Deftness. That is a total of 20 weapon expertise. 20 x .25 = 5% reduction to my targets dodge. It is my understanding that the base dodge of a mob is 5.6%. Should I only be putting 1 point in Weapon Mastery for a total of 6% reduction to my targets dodge and then put the last point in improved execute?
[Grips of Deftness] give 15 expertise rating, not 15 expertise. Wowhead says 15 expertise rating = 4 expertise, so you should only have 5 from the racial and 4 from the gloves so you should still be well under whatever the actual cap is for dodge..
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Originally Posted by mikebro
[Grips of Deftness] give 15 expertise rating, not 15 expertise. Wowhead says 15 expertise rating = 4 expertise, so you should only have 5 from the racial and 4 from the gloves so you should still be well under whatever the actual cap is for dodge..
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Originally Posted by Rishina
[Furious Shackles] Should really be re-itemised, they're just not any good. On another note the flurry bug and whirlwind offhand not proccing flurry is going to be fixed. After 2.3.2 though. Don't see why they can't just hotfix it. Which should result in a nice bit of extra flurry uptime.
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Originally Posted by Emeraude
Anyone know how to take it apart backwards through item budgeting to find out if it is in fact not itemized correctly? If it was you could submit it as a bug to be looked at. >_>
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Originally Posted by Moogul
Now, I've been wondering about this the last couple of days. Up til recently, I'd been a strong supporter of strength over all (taking into account Bok, Imp Zerker, Bloodthirst etc. you can easily see how good strength is for warriors), and socketing all my slots with +8str (My guild only killed Kael last week, so no BT gems for me yet). However, a few days ago after thinking about some in depth gear changes, I decided to re-download the warrior dps spreadsheet (which I had not used in a long time). Setting up my current level of gear (~3 pieces T5 level, the rest T4/Karazhan/Heroic), the latest version of the spreadsheet said that socketing crit instead of strength would be a dps increase for me - I think it was about 1-2dps per gem changed.
Now whilst the spreadsheet has been going through quite a few changes recently, this still suggests to me that maybe we're undervalueing crit. I recently set up a Power Auras icon for Flurry, so I have an obvious visual cue for when I'm flurried and when I'm not, and it's quite enlightening how little time I actually do have flurry up. I guess partly this is due to the current flurry bugs (which supposedly will be fixed in 2.4), but it still seems that with flurry, impale, and RED, that it's not entirely possible for crit to be better than Str. Does anyone have any evidence other than the spreadsheet for either point of view? |
The problem that warriors have to realize is, while all of our stats are good, they increase the value of each other, so stacking any one stat, be it STR/AP when you have 25% unbuffed crit, or 37% unbuffed crit when you have 1600 ap, or 300 hit rating when you have 1600 ap and 25% crit is silly. Get a reasonable amount of hit rating, but never gem for it. Follow socket bonuses until you have a decent amount of crit, then stack strength gems. Get the item that is best itemized for dps in every slot and go from there.
I had 34% crit unbuffed recently, switched 2% of it, for some ArP and saw a pretty huge increase in damage, and my flurry uptime didn't take that big of a hit either. Hopefully the hot fixes will also raise the flurry uptime as well which reduces the dependance on crit even further.
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Originally Posted by Rishina
I had 34% crit unbuffed recently, switched 2% of it, for some ArP and saw a pretty huge increase in damage, and my flurry uptime didn't take that big of a hit either. Hopefully the hot fixes will also raise the flurry uptime as well which reduces the dependance on crit even further.
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Oh, used the wrong term. They're going to fix the offhand WW crit, not proccing flurry and the one were if you have one flurry charge left and you crit, it doesn't refresh. Those will be fixed, so they both proc flurry.
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Originally Posted by Quixotic
Well my post was mainly referring to the posters who were stacking crit in excess of 35%+ unbuffed. Personally I did follow my socket colors, because crit still was useful until I reached a comfortable number in which I felt that flurry uptime, as well as incoming rage generation was acceptable. It was about 32% crit unbuffed in berzerker stance.
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think they my reitemize Royal Gauntlets of Silvermoon from kael thas to dps gloves since they match the rest of the set?, I picked these up today just for looks. but wondering if they become more handy later on
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Originally Posted by silendeath
think they my reitemize Royal Gauntlets of Silvermoon from kael thas to dps gloves since they match the rest of the set?, I picked these up today just for looks. but wondering if they become more handy later on
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Originally Posted by Machinator
I dunno, Im at 34% now and 1900 ap unbuffed in zerker stance. Both Str and Crit rating steadily increase in power as I gear, but crit seems to scaling faster and is almost past str. Its getting close to a wicked noble topaz in red sockets over bold ruby. Its not that its useful for flurry, past a point it does almost nothing for uptime. But it is double damage, and more than that as you get more HS until you cant do anymore due to weapon speed.
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I also highly doubt you can keep up HS on every mainhand swing, I have nearly 2200 AP and 33.5% unbuffed crit and I barely can.
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Originally Posted by Randor
They have zero dps stats. You'd be better off with just about any other glove for DPS purposes.
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Originally Posted by Quixotic
At your level of gear, str is by far better than crit. With MotW, BoK, LotP, Stone on offhand, mongoose up, you should have close to 45% crit, adding another 1% crit isn't nearly as much of a dps increase as adding more AP, which makes ALL of your attacks do more damage. Which brings me to double executioner, I have no idea why anyone would double executioner, considering they cant double stack. The uptime on just MH executioner, along with mongoose's haste + crit for OH, makes it a clear winner. For your level of gear, I'd even consider potency over executioner OH.
I also highly doubt you can keep up HS on every mainhand swing, I have nearly 2200 AP and 33.5% unbuffed crit and I barely can. |
Also I wasnt claiming that I can keep HS on every MH, which I cant. But that is when +crit takes a dip in usefulness as that is the cap of the what you can apply Impale to.
Look at the Mongoose/Executioner thread. Double Executioner not stacking doesnt make it suck, and I still have yet to see anyone have any other reason why it worse than Ex/Mongoose. It may not be better, but its at least as good and much more consistent. Mongoose offhand uptime is ~25%, compared to the extra 15-20% Executioner is up. If there was that big a difference you would be promoting double mongoose. I think a lot of people just saw the fact that it doesnt stack and assumed it wasnt useful rather than actually looking at what it does for you.
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Originally Posted by Quixotic
At your level of gear, str is by far better than crit. With MotW, BoK, LotP, Stone on offhand, mongoose up, you should have close to 45% crit, adding another 1% crit isn't nearly as much of a dps increase as adding more AP, which makes ALL of your attacks do more damage.
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As I gear up in BT and Hyjal (which we should be starting this week), I'm guessing that my crit will raise enough that I can spend most of my sockets on strength, but at this gear level crit seems like a very valuable stat.
As has been stated before, I don't think there is a "right" way to socket your gear. It is there to give gear versatility and that's exactly what you should be when socketing your gear: versatile. There's a lot of factors that have been mentioned like your group setup, current gear level, spec, etc. that should all go into consideration when picking you gems: it's a very case by case deal.
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Originally Posted by Zalein
As has been stated before, I don't think there is a "right" way to socket your gear. It is there to give gear versatility and that's exactly what you should be when socketing your gear: versatile. There's a lot of factors that have been mentioned like your group setup, current gear level, spec, etc. that should all go into consideration when picking you gems: it's a very case by case deal.
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Not to mention the availability of Crimson Spinels, in my guild you'll be waiting several weeks before you got the ones you need for your item.
I usually socket like this:
1) Meta Gem bonus - 2 blue, 2 red, 2 yellow
2) Gem Availability - Basically, I'm probably never going to attempt to get a Bold Crimson Spinel. I'm happy enough with Pyrestones.
3) Socket bonus - That is, if a socket bonus is +3 stamina like in [Furious Shackles], yes I would consider putting a Bold Crimson Spinel in it. A lot of items have a +3 or +4 crit rating socket bonus with yellow socket(s). I will pretty much almost always put a Pyrestone in over a Bold Crimson Spinel to get the socket bonus. I honestly don't know if losing +8/+9 crit rating is worth it to gain 5 strength and frankly I think the people that say "1 crit rating is worth 1.35 strength" or any arbitrary number are talking out of their asses. The only socket bonus I intend on breaking is possibly Furious Shackles and the Onslaught chest because I already have 2 blue sockets so it isn't worth the sacrifice for the +4 crit rating socket bonus, the upside is I can always re-socket if a nice belt or shoulders come around in Sunwell without a blue socket.
4) Stat Balance, If I'm lacking crit or my AP is pathetic, I will probably lean towards that stat.
A page or two ago I proposed a crit 'obsessed' gearing using the [nerfed] Flurry as possible salvation for the Fury tree.
Perhaps the whole picture wasn't in view. Reading the current page's insights, I'm reminded of a Vashj downing in particular. I was considering self-gearing, and not fully placing oneself inside the raid makeup.
I was specced 0/41/20 if I recall, and was fortunate enough to be in the melee group with the enh sham. I remember sustaining 4.2k AP and peaking around 5k with procs. What really stood out on these attempts was WF totem procs. With such an investment of AP, these procs were hitting like semi's (Optimus Prime) into a Smart Tower (I hate those dinky cars). At a time when my dps set was all heroics with just 2 SSC items (Dragonstrike/Red Belt), I was still punching ~1800 reg BTs.
As was pointed out, if you can rely on getting LotP for raids, perhaps crit can be eased. But what I'm getting at is this: just how valuable IS Flurry.. when you're proccing WF left and right? The whole point of Flurry is to squeeze more attacks in- a Warrior's SnD if you will. WF does the same thing: x+1 attacks in a normal x attack timeframe. (WF = 6/5, Flurry = 4/3). The mechanics are slightly different, as WF incorporates full MH value + bonus AP for the proc, whereas Flurry hastens [nerfed] OH dmg for some of the swings.
Perhaps the whole picture wasn't in view. Reading the current page's insights, I'm reminded of a Vashj downing in particular. I was considering self-gearing, and not fully placing oneself inside the raid makeup.
I was specced 0/41/20 if I recall, and was fortunate enough to be in the melee group with the enh sham. I remember sustaining 4.2k AP and peaking around 5k with procs. What really stood out on these attempts was WF totem procs. With such an investment of AP, these procs were hitting like semi's (Optimus Prime) into a Smart Tower (I hate those dinky cars). At a time when my dps set was all heroics with just 2 SSC items (Dragonstrike/Red Belt), I was still punching ~1800 reg BTs.
As was pointed out, if you can rely on getting LotP for raids, perhaps crit can be eased. But what I'm getting at is this: just how valuable IS Flurry.. when you're proccing WF left and right? The whole point of Flurry is to squeeze more attacks in- a Warrior's SnD if you will. WF does the same thing: x+1 attacks in a normal x attack timeframe. (WF = 6/5, Flurry = 4/3). The mechanics are slightly different, as WF incorporates full MH value + bonus AP for the proc, whereas Flurry hastens [nerfed] OH dmg for some of the swings.
WoW Forums -> Class Feedback Requested
Interesting blue post, in all the class forums. I wonder what will become of the feedback and if they will really take the time to accurately collect and analyze all of the feedback. They are sure to get 1000s of responses.
Interesting blue post, in all the class forums. I wonder what will become of the feedback and if they will really take the time to accurately collect and analyze all of the feedback. They are sure to get 1000s of responses.
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Originally Posted by Randor
No link to your armory so we can't see your gear/gems/enchants. But for that much crit as 17-44, how much attack power do you have?
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I really disagree with people who gem all str or go for high str items only. I still use mongoose on all my weapons, and the results have been excellent. I love crit. Even with 33/28 I am often hitting 50% crit on bosses and it makes for great dps. Flurry almost never drops, and several Insane str pot/deathwish crits in a row is a thing of beauty.
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Originally Posted by Mjollnir
The whole point of Flurry is to squeeze more attacks in- a Warrior's SnD if you will. WF does the same thing: x+1 attacks in a normal x attack timeframe. (WF = 6/5, Flurry = 4/3). The mechanics are slightly different, as WF incorporates full MH value + bonus AP for the proc, whereas Flurry hastens [nerfed] OH dmg for some of the swings.
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Well strength also does nothing for executes, while crit and -armor do. This may be why crit exceeds str at higher gear levels. From 20-0% the only special we run is execute, but for some reason no one ever mentions how str does nothing for that part of our DPS cycles.
Speaking as a 33/28 warrior, I'm putting a lot more value in crit lately, after having some nights in Hyjal where I would watch streaks of noncrits go by and watch my dps plummet. Our dps group is usually rogue/rogue/warrior/warrior/shaman, with the feral druid in the tank group (either dpsing or tanking). Not having LotP is a big difference, and very noticeable in flurry/BF uptime and rage generation with a 2h, even with Windfury. Additionally, of the two warriors, I'm usually the Sapphire bitch, so that's another slot where I lose crit.
The guy who said "every situation is different, you need to look at the whole picture to see what stats you should value" had it right. For an Arms warrior who gets LotP, Tsunami Talisman, etc, Str/AP might be more important. For me, more crit!
The guy who said "every situation is different, you need to look at the whole picture to see what stats you should value" had it right. For an Arms warrior who gets LotP, Tsunami Talisman, etc, Str/AP might be more important. For me, more crit!
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Originally Posted by Animosityftw
From 20-0% the only special we run is execute
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But yes that's one of the reasons I love Armour Pen, for scaling my executes a bit more.
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Originally Posted by Moogul
Actually, fairly simple maths shows that at decent gear levels, Bloodthirst is more efficient than execute if you ever spike to more than 30rage (which you often will).
But yes that's one of the reasons I love Armour Pen, for scaling my executes a bit more. |
edit- Meant to say "precision instead of imp execute", not flurry.
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Originally Posted by Suesse
I found a link on wowwiki to a item budget calculator. It says it's for TBC but it doesn't have support for gems. Anyway, I compared Rage's bracers against Lurker's and found a 10-ish level difference which is about right. While I agree that these bracers stink, I think it's more an issue that other bracers are really good. For example, Lurker's bracers are low stamina, have a socket, and split item budget between 3 damage stats.
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I picked up a Swiftsteel Bludgeeon to test out fast weapons for execute. I'll be using SSB as MH and S2 OH. I put +7 weapon damage on the SSB and am considering doing the same the for the Merc OH (Potency atm).
My normal weapons are 2.7 and 2.6 so should have some numbers this coming week.
My normal weapons are 2.7 and 2.6 so should have some numbers this coming week.
Edited onPatch 2.3.0
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Originally Posted by Eledorian
No WF gimps your rage generation (being swordspecced helps a little) so it will be hard to keep up the rotation.
It would be nice to maybe tell us what kind of rotation you use and maybe post a WWS of one of your raids so we can possibly help you out where you're doing something wrong  |
I finally got a WWS
My gear is a bit better too, but, it's almost the better gear I can get without 25-man raid boss drops and more arenas.WWS
I had a feral druid, 2 hunters and a rogue in my group. In the end Slam did more dmg than white dmg... I guess I did something wrong ><
edit: typo
Last edited by vultur : 12/07/07 at 5:07 AM.
In a perfect rotation without swordspec or WF, slam should do more damage than white because of the innate damage bonus on slam.
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Originally Posted by Machinator
in terms of flurry uptime +crit has diminishing returns.
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Originally Posted by Katrael
This puts me in mind of a question I ran into last week. I'm 17/44 for raids, and using [Dragonstrike][Malchazeen] As my execute weapon combo. Frequently I found myself with the choice of execute at ~20-28 rage, or wait a second or two to bloodthirst. This was especially true during Morogrim. Not sure what the best choice is here for sustained DPS. I was running precision instead of imp execute, so I elected to wait out the rage and use BT whenever it was up, and I came out with fairly high DPS in the end(SWS put me at just a hair under 1300 at the end of moro with one grave. No WWS log that night unfortunately). Just not sure what's optimal here.
edit- Meant to say "precision instead of imp execute", not flurry. |
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Originally Posted by Rishina
I had 34% crit unbuffed recently, switched 2% of it, for some ArP and saw a pretty huge increase in damage, and my flurry uptime didn't take that big of a hit either. Hopefully the hot fixes will also raise the flurry uptime as well which reduces the dependance on crit even further.
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Oh, used the wrong term. They're going to fix the offhand WW crit, not proccing flurry and the one were if you have one flurry charge left and you crit, it doesn't refresh. Those will be fixed, so they both proc flurry.
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Originally Posted by Quixotic
Well my post was mainly referring to the posters who were stacking crit in excess of 35%+ unbuffed. Personally I did follow my socket colors, because crit still was useful until I reached a comfortable number in which I felt that flurry uptime, as well as incoming rage generation was acceptable. It was about 32% crit unbuffed in berzerker stance.
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think they my reitemize Royal Gauntlets of Silvermoon from kael thas to dps gloves since they match the rest of the set?, I picked these up today just for looks. but wondering if they become more handy later on
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Originally Posted by silendeath
think they my reitemize Royal Gauntlets of Silvermoon from kael thas to dps gloves since they match the rest of the set?, I picked these up today just for looks. but wondering if they become more handy later on
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Originally Posted by Machinator
I dunno, Im at 34% now and 1900 ap unbuffed in zerker stance. Both Str and Crit rating steadily increase in power as I gear, but crit seems to scaling faster and is almost past str. Its getting close to a wicked noble topaz in red sockets over bold ruby. Its not that its useful for flurry, past a point it does almost nothing for uptime. But it is double damage, and more than that as you get more HS until you cant do anymore due to weapon speed.
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I also highly doubt you can keep up HS on every mainhand swing, I have nearly 2200 AP and 33.5% unbuffed crit and I barely can.
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Originally Posted by Randor
They have zero dps stats. You'd be better off with just about any other glove for DPS purposes.
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Originally Posted by Quixotic
At your level of gear, str is by far better than crit. With MotW, BoK, LotP, Stone on offhand, mongoose up, you should have close to 45% crit, adding another 1% crit isn't nearly as much of a dps increase as adding more AP, which makes ALL of your attacks do more damage. Which brings me to double executioner, I have no idea why anyone would double executioner, considering they cant double stack. The uptime on just MH executioner, along with mongoose's haste + crit for OH, makes it a clear winner. For your level of gear, I'd even consider potency over executioner OH.
I also highly doubt you can keep up HS on every mainhand swing, I have nearly 2200 AP and 33.5% unbuffed crit and I barely can. |
Also I wasnt claiming that I can keep HS on every MH, which I cant. But that is when +crit takes a dip in usefulness as that is the cap of the what you can apply Impale to.
Look at the Mongoose/Executioner thread. Double Executioner not stacking doesnt make it suck, and I still have yet to see anyone have any other reason why it worse than Ex/Mongoose. It may not be better, but its at least as good and much more consistent. Mongoose offhand uptime is ~25%, compared to the extra 15-20% Executioner is up. If there was that big a difference you would be promoting double mongoose. I think a lot of people just saw the fact that it doesnt stack and assumed it wasnt useful rather than actually looking at what it does for you.
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Originally Posted by Quixotic
At your level of gear, str is by far better than crit. With MotW, BoK, LotP, Stone on offhand, mongoose up, you should have close to 45% crit, adding another 1% crit isn't nearly as much of a dps increase as adding more AP, which makes ALL of your attacks do more damage.
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As I gear up in BT and Hyjal (which we should be starting this week), I'm guessing that my crit will raise enough that I can spend most of my sockets on strength, but at this gear level crit seems like a very valuable stat.
As has been stated before, I don't think there is a "right" way to socket your gear. It is there to give gear versatility and that's exactly what you should be when socketing your gear: versatile. There's a lot of factors that have been mentioned like your group setup, current gear level, spec, etc. that should all go into consideration when picking you gems: it's a very case by case deal.
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Originally Posted by Zalein
As has been stated before, I don't think there is a "right" way to socket your gear. It is there to give gear versatility and that's exactly what you should be when socketing your gear: versatile. There's a lot of factors that have been mentioned like your group setup, current gear level, spec, etc. that should all go into consideration when picking you gems: it's a very case by case deal.
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Not to mention the availability of Crimson Spinels, in my guild you'll be waiting several weeks before you got the ones you need for your item.
I usually socket like this:
1) Meta Gem bonus - 2 blue, 2 red, 2 yellow
2) Gem Availability - Basically, I'm probably never going to attempt to get a Bold Crimson Spinel. I'm happy enough with Pyrestones.
3) Socket bonus - That is, if a socket bonus is +3 stamina like in [Furious Shackles], yes I would consider putting a Bold Crimson Spinel in it. A lot of items have a +3 or +4 crit rating socket bonus with yellow socket(s). I will pretty much almost always put a Pyrestone in over a Bold Crimson Spinel to get the socket bonus. I honestly don't know if losing +8/+9 crit rating is worth it to gain 5 strength and frankly I think the people that say "1 crit rating is worth 1.35 strength" or any arbitrary number are talking out of their asses. The only socket bonus I intend on breaking is possibly Furious Shackles and the Onslaught chest because I already have 2 blue sockets so it isn't worth the sacrifice for the +4 crit rating socket bonus, the upside is I can always re-socket if a nice belt or shoulders come around in Sunwell without a blue socket.
4) Stat Balance, If I'm lacking crit or my AP is pathetic, I will probably lean towards that stat.
A page or two ago I proposed a crit 'obsessed' gearing using the [nerfed] Flurry as possible salvation for the Fury tree.
Perhaps the whole picture wasn't in view. Reading the current page's insights, I'm reminded of a Vashj downing in particular. I was considering self-gearing, and not fully placing oneself inside the raid makeup.
I was specced 0/41/20 if I recall, and was fortunate enough to be in the melee group with the enh sham. I remember sustaining 4.2k AP and peaking around 5k with procs. What really stood out on these attempts was WF totem procs. With such an investment of AP, these procs were hitting like semi's (Optimus Prime) into a Smart Tower (I hate those dinky cars). At a time when my dps set was all heroics with just 2 SSC items (Dragonstrike/Red Belt), I was still punching ~1800 reg BTs.
As was pointed out, if you can rely on getting LotP for raids, perhaps crit can be eased. But what I'm getting at is this: just how valuable IS Flurry.. when you're proccing WF left and right? The whole point of Flurry is to squeeze more attacks in- a Warrior's SnD if you will. WF does the same thing: x+1 attacks in a normal x attack timeframe. (WF = 6/5, Flurry = 4/3). The mechanics are slightly different, as WF incorporates full MH value + bonus AP for the proc, whereas Flurry hastens [nerfed] OH dmg for some of the swings.
Perhaps the whole picture wasn't in view. Reading the current page's insights, I'm reminded of a Vashj downing in particular. I was considering self-gearing, and not fully placing oneself inside the raid makeup.
I was specced 0/41/20 if I recall, and was fortunate enough to be in the melee group with the enh sham. I remember sustaining 4.2k AP and peaking around 5k with procs. What really stood out on these attempts was WF totem procs. With such an investment of AP, these procs were hitting like semi's (Optimus Prime) into a Smart Tower (I hate those dinky cars). At a time when my dps set was all heroics with just 2 SSC items (Dragonstrike/Red Belt), I was still punching ~1800 reg BTs.
As was pointed out, if you can rely on getting LotP for raids, perhaps crit can be eased. But what I'm getting at is this: just how valuable IS Flurry.. when you're proccing WF left and right? The whole point of Flurry is to squeeze more attacks in- a Warrior's SnD if you will. WF does the same thing: x+1 attacks in a normal x attack timeframe. (WF = 6/5, Flurry = 4/3). The mechanics are slightly different, as WF incorporates full MH value + bonus AP for the proc, whereas Flurry hastens [nerfed] OH dmg for some of the swings.
WoW Forums -> Class Feedback Requested
Interesting blue post, in all the class forums. I wonder what will become of the feedback and if they will really take the time to accurately collect and analyze all of the feedback. They are sure to get 1000s of responses.
Interesting blue post, in all the class forums. I wonder what will become of the feedback and if they will really take the time to accurately collect and analyze all of the feedback. They are sure to get 1000s of responses.
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Originally Posted by Randor
No link to your armory so we can't see your gear/gems/enchants. But for that much crit as 17-44, how much attack power do you have?
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I really disagree with people who gem all str or go for high str items only. I still use mongoose on all my weapons, and the results have been excellent. I love crit. Even with 33/28 I am often hitting 50% crit on bosses and it makes for great dps. Flurry almost never drops, and several Insane str pot/deathwish crits in a row is a thing of beauty.
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Originally Posted by Mjollnir
The whole point of Flurry is to squeeze more attacks in- a Warrior's SnD if you will. WF does the same thing: x+1 attacks in a normal x attack timeframe. (WF = 6/5, Flurry = 4/3). The mechanics are slightly different, as WF incorporates full MH value + bonus AP for the proc, whereas Flurry hastens [nerfed] OH dmg for some of the swings.
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Well strength also does nothing for executes, while crit and -armor do. This may be why crit exceeds str at higher gear levels. From 20-0% the only special we run is execute, but for some reason no one ever mentions how str does nothing for that part of our DPS cycles.
Speaking as a 33/28 warrior, I'm putting a lot more value in crit lately, after having some nights in Hyjal where I would watch streaks of noncrits go by and watch my dps plummet. Our dps group is usually rogue/rogue/warrior/warrior/shaman, with the feral druid in the tank group (either dpsing or tanking). Not having LotP is a big difference, and very noticeable in flurry/BF uptime and rage generation with a 2h, even with Windfury. Additionally, of the two warriors, I'm usually the Sapphire bitch, so that's another slot where I lose crit.
The guy who said "every situation is different, you need to look at the whole picture to see what stats you should value" had it right. For an Arms warrior who gets LotP, Tsunami Talisman, etc, Str/AP might be more important. For me, more crit!
The guy who said "every situation is different, you need to look at the whole picture to see what stats you should value" had it right. For an Arms warrior who gets LotP, Tsunami Talisman, etc, Str/AP might be more important. For me, more crit!
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Originally Posted by Animosityftw
From 20-0% the only special we run is execute
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But yes that's one of the reasons I love Armour Pen, for scaling my executes a bit more.
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Originally Posted by Moogul
Actually, fairly simple maths shows that at decent gear levels, Bloodthirst is more efficient than execute if you ever spike to more than 30rage (which you often will).
But yes that's one of the reasons I love Armour Pen, for scaling my executes a bit more. |
edit- Meant to say "precision instead of imp execute", not flurry.
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Originally Posted by Suesse
I found a link on wowwiki to a item budget calculator. It says it's for TBC but it doesn't have support for gems. Anyway, I compared Rage's bracers against Lurker's and found a 10-ish level difference which is about right. While I agree that these bracers stink, I think it's more an issue that other bracers are really good. For example, Lurker's bracers are low stamina, have a socket, and split item budget between 3 damage stats.
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I picked up a Swiftsteel Bludgeeon to test out fast weapons for execute. I'll be using SSB as MH and S2 OH. I put +7 weapon damage on the SSB and am considering doing the same the for the Merc OH (Potency atm).
My normal weapons are 2.7 and 2.6 so should have some numbers this coming week.
My normal weapons are 2.7 and 2.6 so should have some numbers this coming week.
Edited onPatch 2.3.0
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Originally Posted by Eledorian
No WF gimps your rage generation (being swordspecced helps a little) so it will be hard to keep up the rotation.
It would be nice to maybe tell us what kind of rotation you use and maybe post a WWS of one of your raids so we can possibly help you out where you're doing something wrong |
I finally got a WWS
My gear is a bit better too, but, it's almost the better gear I can get without 25-man raid boss drops and more arenas.WWS
I had a feral druid, 2 hunters and a rogue in my group. In the end Slam did more dmg than white dmg... I guess I did something wrong ><
edit: typo
Last edited by vultur : 12/07/07 at 5:07 AM.
In a perfect rotation without swordspec or WF, slam should do more damage than white because of the innate damage bonus on slam.
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Originally Posted by Machinator
in terms of flurry uptime +crit has diminishing returns.
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Originally Posted by Katrael
This puts me in mind of a question I ran into last week. I'm 17/44 for raids, and using [Dragonstrike][Malchazeen] As my execute weapon combo. Frequently I found myself with the choice of execute at ~20-28 rage, or wait a second or two to bloodthirst. This was especially true during Morogrim. Not sure what the best choice is here for sustained DPS. I was running precision instead of imp execute, so I elected to wait out the rage and use BT whenever it was up, and I came out with fairly high DPS in the end(SWS put me at just a hair under 1300 at the end of moro with one grave. No WWS log that night unfortunately). Just not sure what's optimal here.
edit- Meant to say "precision instead of imp execute", not flurry. |
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Originally Posted by Mjollnir
I'm not sure I follow you.
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Compare the situation of going from 0-10% crit
This will increase flurry uptime substantially.
Now compare the situation where you are critting 90% of the hits you are actually landing and then increasing this value to 100% (Its still a 10% increase in crit) but since with 90% critrate you will already have flurry up almost all the time (because it refreshes the debuff before it expires) the extra 10% wont actually increase the time you are flurried.
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Originally Posted by Brissa
A crit while flurry is up will only refresh the timer not add to it.
Compare the situation of going from 0-10% crit This will increase flurry uptime substantially. Now compare the situation where you are critting 90% of the hits you are actually landing and then increasing this value to 100% (Its still a 10% increase in crit) but since with 90% critrate you will already have flurry up almost all the time (because it refreshes the debuff before it expires) the extra 10% wont actually increase the time you are flurried. |
Other than the obvious double damage a crit provides, what benefit is there? Rampage availability, and Flurry. So arguably yes, the point of stacking crit is Flurry.
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Originally Posted by Mjollnir
Gotcha. This is hardly argumentative for the inverse either: stack as little crit as possible to make it worth more in terms of Flurry uptime.
Other than the obvious double damage a crit provides, what benefit is there? Rampage availability, and Flurry. So arguably yes, the point of stacking crit is Flurry. |
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Originally Posted by Machinator
No, it is saying that the uptime gained per crit rating decreases as you gain crit. It is like an asymptote, you will approach but never reach. Once flurry is already up most of the time, which it will be in any decent gear, stacking crit in order to increase flurry uptime is ineffective. The primary gain from crit is doing more damage per swing.
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Also, although flurry will generally be up 'most of the time', this most of the time generally works out to 70-80% (a bit more at higher levels of gear, and should go up once OH WW can proc it), not 90%+ like many assume. There is still significant gains to be made by increasing that.
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Also, as an addendum, I'm thinking of making a flurry simulator (most likely a simple C program rather than a spreadsheet, as it's a little more complicated to model) and I could do with knowing a few things - firstly, do WF attacks consume flurry? I assume that they can proc it, but as a hit that generates rage, I don't know if they can consume a flurry charge or not. Also, is there a consistent view on what happens to the swing speed of your weapon when flurry runs out halfway through (normally due to a swing from the different weapon) - does it just carry on as if the weapon speed was normal, or if it was flurried, or does it 'flurry half the swing' and then leave the rest normal?
so i've been going through many posts and many forums and i've heard some debate on the pro's con's over slow/fast OH. There are those that just swaer by it and say its absolutly dumb not to have a slow/slow weapon, and i've already read some pretty good explanations on how a slow OH isnt that much of a difference and why.
i'm currently using a slow/fast(syphon and swiftsteel bludgeon) i'm kinda convinced on trying to take the next axe of najentus that drops so i can try out the slow/slow
My question right now is should i just stick to my syphon MH bludgeon OH - or should i use my dragonstrike as a MH and spyhon as an OH so i have two slow weapon.... or is the difference minimal and the stats on the swiftsteel bludgeon worthy of just using that for now.
i'm currently using a slow/fast(syphon and swiftsteel bludgeon) i'm kinda convinced on trying to take the next axe of najentus that drops so i can try out the slow/slow
My question right now is should i just stick to my syphon MH bludgeon OH - or should i use my dragonstrike as a MH and spyhon as an OH so i have two slow weapon.... or is the difference minimal and the stats on the swiftsteel bludgeon worthy of just using that for now.
Flurry simulators have been made by the enhancement shamans but results have been very inconclusive.
In fact it seems that we have no idea how flurry is implemented.
In fact it seems that we have no idea how flurry is implemented.
Moogul: could you post some of that math? The last math proof I read concerning Impale (17/44) being worth less than 1% of total dps assuming sub 40% crit was highly informative.
I realise I made a slight error in my earlier maths, by counting 3 rather than 4 attacks (ie. ignoring instants). Here's the simple maths I did at work the other day - it's hard to be entirely accurate with flurry, since the more flurry you have the less instants per 3-hit cycle you have which complicates things.
Anyway, 2 slow weapons, and BT every 6 seconds and WW every 9, you're looking at around 1 instant for every 3 melee hits, which means that the formula for flurry uptime is (approximately) 1-((1-C)^4).
Putting in some sample crit rates (C) you get the following flurry uptimes:
Critrate ---- Flurry uptime
25% ---- 68.4%
30% ---- 76%
35% ---- 82.1%
40% ---- 87%
45% ---- 90.8%
50% ---- 93.8%
so, going from 25%->30% crit (an increase of 5%) gives around an 8% increase in flurry uptime
going from 45% to 50% (also an increase of 5)%, gives around a 3% increase in flurry uptime
This is only approximate though - in fact you'll normally have a bit less than 4 attacks per 3-melee hits (particularly if you use a fast offhand), which will reduce the difference more so that at higher levels of crit you will gain a bigger distance in flurry uptimes. Then again, if WF hits can proc flurry but not eat it, then you will have even more attacks per 3-melee swings.
I'll try to work on this flurry simulator over the next week or so and see if I can get some more accurate data.
Anyway, 2 slow weapons, and BT every 6 seconds and WW every 9, you're looking at around 1 instant for every 3 melee hits, which means that the formula for flurry uptime is (approximately) 1-((1-C)^4).
Putting in some sample crit rates (C) you get the following flurry uptimes:
Critrate ---- Flurry uptime
25% ---- 68.4%
30% ---- 76%
35% ---- 82.1%
40% ---- 87%
45% ---- 90.8%
50% ---- 93.8%
so, going from 25%->30% crit (an increase of 5%) gives around an 8% increase in flurry uptime
going from 45% to 50% (also an increase of 5)%, gives around a 3% increase in flurry uptime
This is only approximate though - in fact you'll normally have a bit less than 4 attacks per 3-melee hits (particularly if you use a fast offhand), which will reduce the difference more so that at higher levels of crit you will gain a bigger distance in flurry uptimes. Then again, if WF hits can proc flurry but not eat it, then you will have even more attacks per 3-melee swings.
I'll try to work on this flurry simulator over the next week or so and see if I can get some more accurate data.
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Originally Posted by Moogul
if WF hits can proc flurry but not eat it
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Also, impale as only 1% of total damage seems a bit low?
Take a no impale situation. You have C% crit, and S% of your damage is from specials.
Of your specials, C% are crits, hitting for double damage. This means that 2*C/(1+C) of your special damage is from crits. Impale means you do 0.1*S*C/(1+C) S more damage. For most fury warriors, special damage is around 50% I think (probably higher at higher gear levels as you can HS more). Taking 40% crit, that makes a dps increase of:
0.1*0.5*0.4/1.4 = 0.0143 or 1.4% more damage from Impale. Hmm, less than I expected, but still more than 1%, and it will increase as your yellow damage increases. Just looked at a couple of Teron Gorefiend logs, one was an MS warrior with 70% special damage, another was a DW Fury with 60% special damage, both of which push impale up before you even count increased crit. Still, it's certainly interesting how little it is - I guess it's due to the fact that it's 20% of the critical strike bonus damage rather than 20% of the whole hit (or at least that's what I'm lead to believe).
Take a no impale situation. You have C% crit, and S% of your damage is from specials.
Of your specials, C% are crits, hitting for double damage. This means that 2*C/(1+C) of your special damage is from crits. Impale means you do 0.1*S*C/(1+C) S more damage. For most fury warriors, special damage is around 50% I think (probably higher at higher gear levels as you can HS more). Taking 40% crit, that makes a dps increase of:
0.1*0.5*0.4/1.4 = 0.0143 or 1.4% more damage from Impale. Hmm, less than I expected, but still more than 1%, and it will increase as your yellow damage increases. Just looked at a couple of Teron Gorefiend logs, one was an MS warrior with 70% special damage, another was a DW Fury with 60% special damage, both of which push impale up before you even count increased crit. Still, it's certainly interesting how little it is - I guess it's due to the fact that it's 20% of the critical strike bonus damage rather than 20% of the whole hit (or at least that's what I'm lead to believe).
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Originally Posted by Moogul
Also, impale as only 1% of total damage seems a bit low?
Take a no impale situation. You have C% crit, and S% of your damage is from specials. Of your specials, C% are crits, hitting for double damage. This means that 2*C/(1+C) of your special damage is from crits. Impale means you do 0.1*S*C/(1+C) S more damage. For most fury warriors, special damage is around 50% I think (probably higher at higher gear levels as you can HS more). Taking 40% crit, that makes a dps increase of: 0.1*0.5*0.4/1.4 = 0.0143 or 1.4% more damage from Impale. Hmm, less than I expected, but still more than 1%, and it will increase as your yellow damage increases. Just looked at a couple of Teron Gorefiend logs, one was an MS warrior with 70% special damage, another was a DW Fury with 60% special damage, both of which push impale up before you even count increased crit. Still, it's certainly interesting how little it is - I guess it's due to the fact that it's 20% of the critical strike bonus damage rather than 20% of the whole hit (or at least that's what I'm lead to believe). |
Edit: 17/44 might see it's death come next patch, where Defiance grats expertise in all stances. Fury/Prot might very well be the highest dps spec out there. This is pure speculation.
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Originally Posted by Mjollnir
I'm not sure I follow you.
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Just change out the number that it's raised to (^3) to something that approximates your total number of swings per 3 white hits. Short story is that past 30% crit the amount of flurry uptime contributed by the next 1% crit drops off a lot, so you don't see as drastic of gains from Crit as you do up until that point.
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Originally Posted by Mjollnir
[Warrior] Impale Overrated?
Edit: 17/44 might see it's death come next patch, where Defiance grats expertise in all stances. Fury/Prot might very well be the highest dps spec out there. This is pure speculation. |
Hello i have just made the switch from tanking to pve ms for the BF debuff.
We have just killed kael as of last nite and will be starting hyjal soon.
Ive been looking at peoples wws for 2h ms pve. Like modrack. I noticed he has a good deal of heroic strike damage in there.
My rotation and the rotation ive seen others talk about goes.... Auto - slam - ms | Auto - slam - ww | Repeat.
So my question is when and where does heroic strike fit in. The only logical way i could think it would come in is if you have a ton of rage and when your swing timer is about to reset you sub the auto attack for a heroic strike then slam then ms or ww?
Just trying to maximize my dps. Ive searched for the answer and have not found it. Thank you in advance.
We have just killed kael as of last nite and will be starting hyjal soon.
Ive been looking at peoples wws for 2h ms pve. Like modrack. I noticed he has a good deal of heroic strike damage in there.
My rotation and the rotation ive seen others talk about goes.... Auto - slam - ms | Auto - slam - ww | Repeat.
So my question is when and where does heroic strike fit in. The only logical way i could think it would come in is if you have a ton of rage and when your swing timer is about to reset you sub the auto attack for a heroic strike then slam then ms or ww?
Just trying to maximize my dps. Ive searched for the answer and have not found it. Thank you in advance.
Kind of off-topic, but if you haven't seen this already, please head over to the Warrior class feedback threads, where Blizzard is (allegedly) collecting player feedback for WotLK:
America: http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/th...280015&sid=1#0
Europe: WoW-Europe.com Forums -> Class Feedback Requested
At the very least, please complain about the Enrage->Flurry requirement. I have a hunch that volume counts in this case.
America: http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/th...280015&sid=1#0
Europe: WoW-Europe.com Forums -> Class Feedback Requested
At the very least, please complain about the Enrage->Flurry requirement. I have a hunch that volume counts in this case.
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Originally Posted by Zadus
The only logical way i could think it would come in is if you have a ton of rage and when your swing timer is about to reset you sub the auto attack for a heroic strike then slam then ms or ww?
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Edited onPatch 2.3.0
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Originally Posted by Mjollnir
[Warrior] Impale Overrated?
Edit: 17/44 might see it's death come next patch, where Defiance grats expertise in all stances. Fury/Prot might very well be the highest dps spec out there. This is pure speculation. |
EDIT: Wrong numbers
17/44: 1538.9 dps + deep wounds
3/44/14: 1520.4 dps
Realistically you might be looking at 5% less dps? That number doesnt feel quite right though.
More fiddling with talents with Imp execute got me thinking.
1. Execute is set damage, it doesnt scale with anything but crit, expertise, and Armor Pen.
2. Execute will use all your rage, which making using HS while using execute very hard.
I'm wondering what the point of inflection is where it is more dps to just not execute. BT already outscales execute at about T4/T5 level, when would the combination of WW and HS be more dps than execute for the rest of the GCDs?
Last edited by Machinator : 12/08/07 at 9:38 AM. Reason: wrong numbers
Perhaps I overplayed the value of expertise. However, it's surprising to see how close the theoretical values come between the cookie cutter, and a hybrid OT build. Obviously, 6 expertise will make this gap smaller, not close it.
Deep wounds is also a little additional dps gain- the argument I was presenting was for Impale.
Deep wounds is also a little additional dps gain- the argument I was presenting was for Impale.
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Originally Posted by Moogul
WF attacks consume flurry
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Originally Posted by Zadus
Hello i have just made the switch from tanking to pve ms for the BF debuff.
We have just killed kael as of last nite and will be starting hyjal soon. Ive been looking at peoples wws for 2h ms pve. Like modrack. I noticed he has a good deal of heroic strike damage in there. My rotation and the rotation ive seen others talk about goes.... Auto - slam - ms | Auto - slam - ww | Repeat. So my question is when and where does heroic strike fit in. The only logical way i could think it would come in is if you have a ton of rage and when your swing timer is about to reset you sub the auto attack for a heroic strike then slam then ms or ww? Just trying to maximize my dps. Ive searched for the answer and have not found it. Thank you in advance. |
Hey all, first time poster here, long time reader. I need help as far as DPS'ing goes because I must be doing something wrong. Link to armory: The World of Warcraft Armory
On the DPS friendly fights, like Teron and Morogrim, I *BARELY* break over 1k sustained DPS. Before BC I was a DPS monster and totally crushed, but now it's like, I just can't perform like I used to. I have proper DPS rotations, I don't have much lag. Sadly I don't have any WWS logs right now because our raid leader stopped uploading, but I'll try to get some. Once I get some I'll link em. Any advice would be appreciated. Thanks for reading.
On the DPS friendly fights, like Teron and Morogrim, I *BARELY* break over 1k sustained DPS. Before BC I was a DPS monster and totally crushed, but now it's like, I just can't perform like I used to. I have proper DPS rotations, I don't have much lag. Sadly I don't have any WWS logs right now because our raid leader stopped uploading, but I'll try to get some. Once I get some I'll link em. Any advice would be appreciated. Thanks for reading.
Man, I'd have to see a WWS. My fury warriors gear is a little worse then yours, and she rarely dips below 1400 dps on straight dps fights. Are you threat capped? Your gear is pretty perfect, too much hit, but you obviously arent socketing hit or anything, just comes on the gear. If you can get, even an old WWS just to check out, I really cant tell you whats up otherwise.
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Originally Posted by Mjollnir
[Warrior] Impale Overrated?
Edit: 17/44 might see it's death come next patch, where Defiance grats expertise in all stances. Fury/Prot might very well be the highest dps spec out there. This is pure speculation. |
Is 4% dps worth the survival advantage of last stand and tanking advantage of imp shield block and toughness/defiance? That's the question every warrior will have to make for himself.
And I usually have an Enhance shammy in my group too. This week I should get some logs. I used Dragonstrike in my MH before Rising Tide. In my bank I also have Swiftsteel Bludgeon and Syphon of the Nathrezim. I'm working on getting 1850 rating for the axes, which should really help me with deepz.
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Originally Posted by Mjollnir
I'm not sure I follow you.
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Compare the situation of going from 0-10% crit
This will increase flurry uptime substantially.
Now compare the situation where you are critting 90% of the hits you are actually landing and then increasing this value to 100% (Its still a 10% increase in crit) but since with 90% critrate you will already have flurry up almost all the time (because it refreshes the debuff before it expires) the extra 10% wont actually increase the time you are flurried.
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Originally Posted by Brissa
A crit while flurry is up will only refresh the timer not add to it.
Compare the situation of going from 0-10% crit This will increase flurry uptime substantially. Now compare the situation where you are critting 90% of the hits you are actually landing and then increasing this value to 100% (Its still a 10% increase in crit) but since with 90% critrate you will already have flurry up almost all the time (because it refreshes the debuff before it expires) the extra 10% wont actually increase the time you are flurried. |
Other than the obvious double damage a crit provides, what benefit is there? Rampage availability, and Flurry. So arguably yes, the point of stacking crit is Flurry.
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Originally Posted by Mjollnir
Gotcha. This is hardly argumentative for the inverse either: stack as little crit as possible to make it worth more in terms of Flurry uptime.
Other than the obvious double damage a crit provides, what benefit is there? Rampage availability, and Flurry. So arguably yes, the point of stacking crit is Flurry. |
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Originally Posted by Machinator
No, it is saying that the uptime gained per crit rating decreases as you gain crit. It is like an asymptote, you will approach but never reach. Once flurry is already up most of the time, which it will be in any decent gear, stacking crit in order to increase flurry uptime is ineffective. The primary gain from crit is doing more damage per swing.
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Also, although flurry will generally be up 'most of the time', this most of the time generally works out to 70-80% (a bit more at higher levels of gear, and should go up once OH WW can proc it), not 90%+ like many assume. There is still significant gains to be made by increasing that.
------
Also, as an addendum, I'm thinking of making a flurry simulator (most likely a simple C program rather than a spreadsheet, as it's a little more complicated to model) and I could do with knowing a few things - firstly, do WF attacks consume flurry? I assume that they can proc it, but as a hit that generates rage, I don't know if they can consume a flurry charge or not. Also, is there a consistent view on what happens to the swing speed of your weapon when flurry runs out halfway through (normally due to a swing from the different weapon) - does it just carry on as if the weapon speed was normal, or if it was flurried, or does it 'flurry half the swing' and then leave the rest normal?
so i've been going through many posts and many forums and i've heard some debate on the pro's con's over slow/fast OH. There are those that just swaer by it and say its absolutly dumb not to have a slow/slow weapon, and i've already read some pretty good explanations on how a slow OH isnt that much of a difference and why.
i'm currently using a slow/fast(syphon and swiftsteel bludgeon) i'm kinda convinced on trying to take the next axe of najentus that drops so i can try out the slow/slow
My question right now is should i just stick to my syphon MH bludgeon OH - or should i use my dragonstrike as a MH and spyhon as an OH so i have two slow weapon.... or is the difference minimal and the stats on the swiftsteel bludgeon worthy of just using that for now.
i'm currently using a slow/fast(syphon and swiftsteel bludgeon) i'm kinda convinced on trying to take the next axe of najentus that drops so i can try out the slow/slow
My question right now is should i just stick to my syphon MH bludgeon OH - or should i use my dragonstrike as a MH and spyhon as an OH so i have two slow weapon.... or is the difference minimal and the stats on the swiftsteel bludgeon worthy of just using that for now.
Flurry simulators have been made by the enhancement shamans but results have been very inconclusive.
In fact it seems that we have no idea how flurry is implemented.
In fact it seems that we have no idea how flurry is implemented.
Moogul: could you post some of that math? The last math proof I read concerning Impale (17/44) being worth less than 1% of total dps assuming sub 40% crit was highly informative.
I realise I made a slight error in my earlier maths, by counting 3 rather than 4 attacks (ie. ignoring instants). Here's the simple maths I did at work the other day - it's hard to be entirely accurate with flurry, since the more flurry you have the less instants per 3-hit cycle you have which complicates things.
Anyway, 2 slow weapons, and BT every 6 seconds and WW every 9, you're looking at around 1 instant for every 3 melee hits, which means that the formula for flurry uptime is (approximately) 1-((1-C)^4).
Putting in some sample crit rates (C) you get the following flurry uptimes:
Critrate ---- Flurry uptime
25% ---- 68.4%
30% ---- 76%
35% ---- 82.1%
40% ---- 87%
45% ---- 90.8%
50% ---- 93.8%
so, going from 25%->30% crit (an increase of 5%) gives around an 8% increase in flurry uptime
going from 45% to 50% (also an increase of 5)%, gives around a 3% increase in flurry uptime
This is only approximate though - in fact you'll normally have a bit less than 4 attacks per 3-melee hits (particularly if you use a fast offhand), which will reduce the difference more so that at higher levels of crit you will gain a bigger distance in flurry uptimes. Then again, if WF hits can proc flurry but not eat it, then you will have even more attacks per 3-melee swings.
I'll try to work on this flurry simulator over the next week or so and see if I can get some more accurate data.
Anyway, 2 slow weapons, and BT every 6 seconds and WW every 9, you're looking at around 1 instant for every 3 melee hits, which means that the formula for flurry uptime is (approximately) 1-((1-C)^4).
Putting in some sample crit rates (C) you get the following flurry uptimes:
Critrate ---- Flurry uptime
25% ---- 68.4%
30% ---- 76%
35% ---- 82.1%
40% ---- 87%
45% ---- 90.8%
50% ---- 93.8%
so, going from 25%->30% crit (an increase of 5%) gives around an 8% increase in flurry uptime
going from 45% to 50% (also an increase of 5)%, gives around a 3% increase in flurry uptime
This is only approximate though - in fact you'll normally have a bit less than 4 attacks per 3-melee hits (particularly if you use a fast offhand), which will reduce the difference more so that at higher levels of crit you will gain a bigger distance in flurry uptimes. Then again, if WF hits can proc flurry but not eat it, then you will have even more attacks per 3-melee swings.
I'll try to work on this flurry simulator over the next week or so and see if I can get some more accurate data.
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Originally Posted by Moogul
if WF hits can proc flurry but not eat it
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Also, impale as only 1% of total damage seems a bit low?
Take a no impale situation. You have C% crit, and S% of your damage is from specials.
Of your specials, C% are crits, hitting for double damage. This means that 2*C/(1+C) of your special damage is from crits. Impale means you do 0.1*S*C/(1+C) S more damage. For most fury warriors, special damage is around 50% I think (probably higher at higher gear levels as you can HS more). Taking 40% crit, that makes a dps increase of:
0.1*0.5*0.4/1.4 = 0.0143 or 1.4% more damage from Impale. Hmm, less than I expected, but still more than 1%, and it will increase as your yellow damage increases. Just looked at a couple of Teron Gorefiend logs, one was an MS warrior with 70% special damage, another was a DW Fury with 60% special damage, both of which push impale up before you even count increased crit. Still, it's certainly interesting how little it is - I guess it's due to the fact that it's 20% of the critical strike bonus damage rather than 20% of the whole hit (or at least that's what I'm lead to believe).
Take a no impale situation. You have C% crit, and S% of your damage is from specials.
Of your specials, C% are crits, hitting for double damage. This means that 2*C/(1+C) of your special damage is from crits. Impale means you do 0.1*S*C/(1+C) S more damage. For most fury warriors, special damage is around 50% I think (probably higher at higher gear levels as you can HS more). Taking 40% crit, that makes a dps increase of:
0.1*0.5*0.4/1.4 = 0.0143 or 1.4% more damage from Impale. Hmm, less than I expected, but still more than 1%, and it will increase as your yellow damage increases. Just looked at a couple of Teron Gorefiend logs, one was an MS warrior with 70% special damage, another was a DW Fury with 60% special damage, both of which push impale up before you even count increased crit. Still, it's certainly interesting how little it is - I guess it's due to the fact that it's 20% of the critical strike bonus damage rather than 20% of the whole hit (or at least that's what I'm lead to believe).
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Originally Posted by Moogul
Also, impale as only 1% of total damage seems a bit low?
Take a no impale situation. You have C% crit, and S% of your damage is from specials. Of your specials, C% are crits, hitting for double damage. This means that 2*C/(1+C) of your special damage is from crits. Impale means you do 0.1*S*C/(1+C) S more damage. For most fury warriors, special damage is around 50% I think (probably higher at higher gear levels as you can HS more). Taking 40% crit, that makes a dps increase of: 0.1*0.5*0.4/1.4 = 0.0143 or 1.4% more damage from Impale. Hmm, less than I expected, but still more than 1%, and it will increase as your yellow damage increases. Just looked at a couple of Teron Gorefiend logs, one was an MS warrior with 70% special damage, another was a DW Fury with 60% special damage, both of which push impale up before you even count increased crit. Still, it's certainly interesting how little it is - I guess it's due to the fact that it's 20% of the critical strike bonus damage rather than 20% of the whole hit (or at least that's what I'm lead to believe). |
Edit: 17/44 might see it's death come next patch, where Defiance grats expertise in all stances. Fury/Prot might very well be the highest dps spec out there. This is pure speculation.
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Originally Posted by Mjollnir
I'm not sure I follow you.
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Just change out the number that it's raised to (^3) to something that approximates your total number of swings per 3 white hits. Short story is that past 30% crit the amount of flurry uptime contributed by the next 1% crit drops off a lot, so you don't see as drastic of gains from Crit as you do up until that point.
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Originally Posted by Mjollnir
[Warrior] Impale Overrated?
Edit: 17/44 might see it's death come next patch, where Defiance grats expertise in all stances. Fury/Prot might very well be the highest dps spec out there. This is pure speculation. |
Hello i have just made the switch from tanking to pve ms for the BF debuff.
We have just killed kael as of last nite and will be starting hyjal soon.
Ive been looking at peoples wws for 2h ms pve. Like modrack. I noticed he has a good deal of heroic strike damage in there.
My rotation and the rotation ive seen others talk about goes.... Auto - slam - ms | Auto - slam - ww | Repeat.
So my question is when and where does heroic strike fit in. The only logical way i could think it would come in is if you have a ton of rage and when your swing timer is about to reset you sub the auto attack for a heroic strike then slam then ms or ww?
Just trying to maximize my dps. Ive searched for the answer and have not found it. Thank you in advance.
We have just killed kael as of last nite and will be starting hyjal soon.
Ive been looking at peoples wws for 2h ms pve. Like modrack. I noticed he has a good deal of heroic strike damage in there.
My rotation and the rotation ive seen others talk about goes.... Auto - slam - ms | Auto - slam - ww | Repeat.
So my question is when and where does heroic strike fit in. The only logical way i could think it would come in is if you have a ton of rage and when your swing timer is about to reset you sub the auto attack for a heroic strike then slam then ms or ww?
Just trying to maximize my dps. Ive searched for the answer and have not found it. Thank you in advance.
Kind of off-topic, but if you haven't seen this already, please head over to the Warrior class feedback threads, where Blizzard is (allegedly) collecting player feedback for WotLK:
America: http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/th...280015&sid=1#0
Europe: WoW-Europe.com Forums -> Class Feedback Requested
At the very least, please complain about the Enrage->Flurry requirement. I have a hunch that volume counts in this case.
America: http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/th...280015&sid=1#0
Europe: WoW-Europe.com Forums -> Class Feedback Requested
At the very least, please complain about the Enrage->Flurry requirement. I have a hunch that volume counts in this case.
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Originally Posted by Zadus
The only logical way i could think it would come in is if you have a ton of rage and when your swing timer is about to reset you sub the auto attack for a heroic strike then slam then ms or ww?
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Edited onPatch 2.3.0
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Originally Posted by Mjollnir
[Warrior] Impale Overrated?
Edit: 17/44 might see it's death come next patch, where Defiance grats expertise in all stances. Fury/Prot might very well be the highest dps spec out there. This is pure speculation. |
EDIT: Wrong numbers
17/44: 1538.9 dps + deep wounds
3/44/14: 1520.4 dps
Realistically you might be looking at 5% less dps? That number doesnt feel quite right though.
More fiddling with talents with Imp execute got me thinking.
1. Execute is set damage, it doesnt scale with anything but crit, expertise, and Armor Pen.
2. Execute will use all your rage, which making using HS while using execute very hard.
I'm wondering what the point of inflection is where it is more dps to just not execute. BT already outscales execute at about T4/T5 level, when would the combination of WW and HS be more dps than execute for the rest of the GCDs?
Last edited by Machinator : 12/08/07 at 9:38 AM. Reason: wrong numbers
Perhaps I overplayed the value of expertise. However, it's surprising to see how close the theoretical values come between the cookie cutter, and a hybrid OT build. Obviously, 6 expertise will make this gap smaller, not close it.
Deep wounds is also a little additional dps gain- the argument I was presenting was for Impale.
Deep wounds is also a little additional dps gain- the argument I was presenting was for Impale.
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Originally Posted by Moogul
WF attacks consume flurry
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Originally Posted by Zadus
Hello i have just made the switch from tanking to pve ms for the BF debuff.
We have just killed kael as of last nite and will be starting hyjal soon. Ive been looking at peoples wws for 2h ms pve. Like modrack. I noticed he has a good deal of heroic strike damage in there. My rotation and the rotation ive seen others talk about goes.... Auto - slam - ms | Auto - slam - ww | Repeat. So my question is when and where does heroic strike fit in. The only logical way i could think it would come in is if you have a ton of rage and when your swing timer is about to reset you sub the auto attack for a heroic strike then slam then ms or ww? Just trying to maximize my dps. Ive searched for the answer and have not found it. Thank you in advance. |
Hey all, first time poster here, long time reader. I need help as far as DPS'ing goes because I must be doing something wrong. Link to armory: The World of Warcraft Armory
On the DPS friendly fights, like Teron and Morogrim, I *BARELY* break over 1k sustained DPS. Before BC I was a DPS monster and totally crushed, but now it's like, I just can't perform like I used to. I have proper DPS rotations, I don't have much lag. Sadly I don't have any WWS logs right now because our raid leader stopped uploading, but I'll try to get some. Once I get some I'll link em. Any advice would be appreciated. Thanks for reading.
On the DPS friendly fights, like Teron and Morogrim, I *BARELY* break over 1k sustained DPS. Before BC I was a DPS monster and totally crushed, but now it's like, I just can't perform like I used to. I have proper DPS rotations, I don't have much lag. Sadly I don't have any WWS logs right now because our raid leader stopped uploading, but I'll try to get some. Once I get some I'll link em. Any advice would be appreciated. Thanks for reading.
Man, I'd have to see a WWS. My fury warriors gear is a little worse then yours, and she rarely dips below 1400 dps on straight dps fights. Are you threat capped? Your gear is pretty perfect, too much hit, but you obviously arent socketing hit or anything, just comes on the gear. If you can get, even an old WWS just to check out, I really cant tell you whats up otherwise.
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Originally Posted by Mjollnir
[Warrior] Impale Overrated?
Edit: 17/44 might see it's death come next patch, where Defiance grats expertise in all stances. Fury/Prot might very well be the highest dps spec out there. This is pure speculation. |
Is 4% dps worth the survival advantage of last stand and tanking advantage of imp shield block and toughness/defiance? That's the question every warrior will have to make for himself.
And I usually have an Enhance shammy in my group too. This week I should get some logs. I used Dragonstrike in my MH before Rising Tide. In my bank I also have Swiftsteel Bludgeon and Syphon of the Nathrezim. I'm working on getting 1850 rating for the axes, which should really help me with deepz.
Id probably stick with dragon strike actually. Stick some cutioner on it, and its probably higher over all dps then a rising tide, which imo is a pretty shitty dps weapon. Ton of wasted stats on stam.
I’m glad I found this thread, I am at a crossroads here. Being a warrior with over 200 days played from the beginning of wow & no alts. I don’t think I have ever been so frustrated.
This week I changed spec twice. I started as a tank until I got into BWL & started going deeper in the fury tree for piercing howl. Gaining more capable tanks in the guild & just plain getting sick of tanking & being asked to tank every god forsaken instance got old. I Tried MS and was completely bored with it. Went to fury. Great love it. Developed a nice balance in PvE & PvP. Destroying people in both. And it’s pretty much been that way for over a year & a half. But patch after patch after patch etc, have really changed warrior dps and rolls. Being a horrible typist I managed to get around the conditional macros. My reaction times got a bit worse but nothing to make much of a difference. I noticed more a difference with the haste nerf & change to flurry. Annoying but nothing that bugged me much. Still able to crank out some top dps numbers.
At the time my spec was nearly ideal for both pvp & pve. With arms talents up to sweeping strikes, with axe spec. and fury up to blood thirst. Off the top of my head pushing averages of 33%+ crit , hit 12%+ and 1600+ AP with no buffs or stance factors. Veterans’ gear , T4, everything from Gruul & mulgar, some SSC, and gladiator. Using the ugly as sin Gladiator Axe & Malchazeen both with mongoose as DW & Gorehowl w/ savagery. All gemmed & enchanted. A nice balance between raiding & pvp, 2h or 2w.
Come patch 2.3 . I find myself at a loss with dps. With the change to the trees, PvP has considerably been more challenging. With the loss to imp intercept and a buncha noobs farming honor for gladiator. The resilience & added health has become a factor it seems, and the lack of a descent cool down to chase down people in a rush.
Also my raid dps gets nerfed from threat. Also very raid unfriendly spec with using cleaves & the new whirlwind & making everything around me bleed & breaking CC’s and often getting myself killed. Though I'm not that careless it still happens from time to time. Much of my dps is lost when I'm forced to single target focus unless I have the luxury of a windfury. I could alter the arms & loss the bleed & bonus to crit, but for what. I need the points to get up to the higher brackets of arms, and the other talents are rather pointless.
So I decided to give the full fury a solid go. Losing 5% crit from weapon masteries but gaining a bunch of AP with the berserker stance talent & commanding presence & if I remember to keep my buffs up my raid dps has increase a fair amount. I find myself failing to be viable in 5 heroics mans any more and the arena has been a complete disaster. Mobs in 5 mans simple aren’t alive long enough for all the goodies of fury to take action. And resilience hurting the rampage buff, weapon expertise hurting the use of overpower, loss of deathwish & being fear bombed, and stance dancing constantly changing my AP, Arena has suffered the most.
Seems as if blizzards intent was to separate the arm/fury trees to be either PvP or PvE. Not that I like it but I guess it makes sense. So being all pissed off, I Spec Mortal strike. Arena got slightly better, a noticeable difference as for being able to PvP better with the some talents back and being a rather rusty with an MS build I’m sure it will get better. I haven’t raided with it yet, I’m sure I’m going to be bored, with my guild’s slump in raiding 25 mans. I’m rather bored as it is & I’m not sure I want that to happen.
With the new token reward geared toward the full fury spec and some nice swords & armor with haste & penetration in ZA. I’m leaning toward an Arms/Fury sword spec hybrid. Thinking that will solve much of my frustration but that’s a matter of time since ZA so far hasn’t been too challenging. There I OT pretty effectively in my tank gear, with the hybrid axe spec keeping my crit high enough, I don’t get rage starved and my TPS in full tank gear is much better with the change to Tactical Mastery. There is no problems when I tank the bear form. Even losing the crit with full fury tanking the bear form has yet to pose any problems. So I’m not too worried about my off tanking abilities. I’m sure I will be finding soon enough out how well MS OT’ing will fair.
I’m going to give MS a go for the week, but I have a feeling I will be spec’ing back to arm/fury & probably concentrating in 2H fury with imp slam for some burst dps in pvp by intercept stuns, use HS while charging then slam, bloodthrist, & WW if I got the rage. I also have thought about fighting cheese with cheese & farming honor for resilience & be the typical cookie cutter 2h MS warrior, but that’s not my style. And being in alliance battlegrounds is totally pathetic now, the honor grind is laughable. Pulling less then 200 honor in WSG on a holiday weekend and losing way more AVs then winning. Soooo depressing.
I considered the option of going mace spec hybrid for the pvp , but my MTs’ suggest otherwise, the last thing I need is to nerf their rage & threat when I raid. I’m sure if I play enough Arena & even losing enough I’d be able to scoop up most of the season 2 or 3 stuff. But like much of warrior gear , the stuff is so poorly itemized to fit a descent DW fury spec. besides the gain in resilience the stats aren’t that much different unless I grind it & deck out in season 3 and stick with 2h and using the token reward gear for DW in raids. With averaging 30 tokens a week with a 2 hour kara zerg and some heroics, even then it’s a few months worth of grinding
So you see at this moment I’m at a loss on what to do & where to fit in. it seems my toon has changed in every aspect of the game over night. Up until the recent changes it wasn’t that way at all. Being an old skool player I’m frustrated way more then I should be over some game like never before.
Any advice before I roll a Lock? sorry for being long winded
N
This week I changed spec twice. I started as a tank until I got into BWL & started going deeper in the fury tree for piercing howl. Gaining more capable tanks in the guild & just plain getting sick of tanking & being asked to tank every god forsaken instance got old. I Tried MS and was completely bored with it. Went to fury. Great love it. Developed a nice balance in PvE & PvP. Destroying people in both. And it’s pretty much been that way for over a year & a half. But patch after patch after patch etc, have really changed warrior dps and rolls. Being a horrible typist I managed to get around the conditional macros. My reaction times got a bit worse but nothing to make much of a difference. I noticed more a difference with the haste nerf & change to flurry. Annoying but nothing that bugged me much. Still able to crank out some top dps numbers.
At the time my spec was nearly ideal for both pvp & pve. With arms talents up to sweeping strikes, with axe spec. and fury up to blood thirst. Off the top of my head pushing averages of 33%+ crit , hit 12%+ and 1600+ AP with no buffs or stance factors. Veterans’ gear , T4, everything from Gruul & mulgar, some SSC, and gladiator. Using the ugly as sin Gladiator Axe & Malchazeen both with mongoose as DW & Gorehowl w/ savagery. All gemmed & enchanted. A nice balance between raiding & pvp, 2h or 2w.
Come patch 2.3 . I find myself at a loss with dps. With the change to the trees, PvP has considerably been more challenging. With the loss to imp intercept and a buncha noobs farming honor for gladiator. The resilience & added health has become a factor it seems, and the lack of a descent cool down to chase down people in a rush.
Also my raid dps gets nerfed from threat. Also very raid unfriendly spec with using cleaves & the new whirlwind & making everything around me bleed & breaking CC’s and often getting myself killed. Though I'm not that careless it still happens from time to time. Much of my dps is lost when I'm forced to single target focus unless I have the luxury of a windfury. I could alter the arms & loss the bleed & bonus to crit, but for what. I need the points to get up to the higher brackets of arms, and the other talents are rather pointless.
So I decided to give the full fury a solid go. Losing 5% crit from weapon masteries but gaining a bunch of AP with the berserker stance talent & commanding presence & if I remember to keep my buffs up my raid dps has increase a fair amount. I find myself failing to be viable in 5 heroics mans any more and the arena has been a complete disaster. Mobs in 5 mans simple aren’t alive long enough for all the goodies of fury to take action. And resilience hurting the rampage buff, weapon expertise hurting the use of overpower, loss of deathwish & being fear bombed, and stance dancing constantly changing my AP, Arena has suffered the most.
Seems as if blizzards intent was to separate the arm/fury trees to be either PvP or PvE. Not that I like it but I guess it makes sense. So being all pissed off, I Spec Mortal strike. Arena got slightly better, a noticeable difference as for being able to PvP better with the some talents back and being a rather rusty with an MS build I’m sure it will get better. I haven’t raided with it yet, I’m sure I’m going to be bored, with my guild’s slump in raiding 25 mans. I’m rather bored as it is & I’m not sure I want that to happen.
With the new token reward geared toward the full fury spec and some nice swords & armor with haste & penetration in ZA. I’m leaning toward an Arms/Fury sword spec hybrid. Thinking that will solve much of my frustration but that’s a matter of time since ZA so far hasn’t been too challenging. There I OT pretty effectively in my tank gear, with the hybrid axe spec keeping my crit high enough, I don’t get rage starved and my TPS in full tank gear is much better with the change to Tactical Mastery. There is no problems when I tank the bear form. Even losing the crit with full fury tanking the bear form has yet to pose any problems. So I’m not too worried about my off tanking abilities. I’m sure I will be finding soon enough out how well MS OT’ing will fair.
I’m going to give MS a go for the week, but I have a feeling I will be spec’ing back to arm/fury & probably concentrating in 2H fury with imp slam for some burst dps in pvp by intercept stuns, use HS while charging then slam, bloodthrist, & WW if I got the rage. I also have thought about fighting cheese with cheese & farming honor for resilience & be the typical cookie cutter 2h MS warrior, but that’s not my style. And being in alliance battlegrounds is totally pathetic now, the honor grind is laughable. Pulling less then 200 honor in WSG on a holiday weekend and losing way more AVs then winning. Soooo depressing.
I considered the option of going mace spec hybrid for the pvp , but my MTs’ suggest otherwise, the last thing I need is to nerf their rage & threat when I raid. I’m sure if I play enough Arena & even losing enough I’d be able to scoop up most of the season 2 or 3 stuff. But like much of warrior gear , the stuff is so poorly itemized to fit a descent DW fury spec. besides the gain in resilience the stats aren’t that much different unless I grind it & deck out in season 3 and stick with 2h and using the token reward gear for DW in raids. With averaging 30 tokens a week with a 2 hour kara zerg and some heroics, even then it’s a few months worth of grinding
So you see at this moment I’m at a loss on what to do & where to fit in. it seems my toon has changed in every aspect of the game over night. Up until the recent changes it wasn’t that way at all. Being an old skool player I’m frustrated way more then I should be over some game like never before.
Any advice before I roll a Lock? sorry for being long winded
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I almost don't want to go after this last guy, I am afraid maybe I'll wind up in the dungheap with him.
I am bit confused about at what point i should lessen my priority on AP and start using 4str-4crit gems instead of all 8str. Currently I am at 2100AP and 33% crit. I am in BT so i have access to epic gems as well.
I am bit confused about at what point i should lessen my priority on AP and start using 4str-4crit gems instead of all 8str. Currently I am at 2100AP and 33% crit. I am in BT so i have access to epic gems as well.
Not sure what exaclty your asking for man, its a lot of confusion and probably a lot of unnecessary info. Lemme see if i can help at all.
Arena is harder atm, long Q's and everyone in resil gear make it harder. Fury was never really viable in arenas. MS has always been king.
You wanna be maces for pvp, but its shit for pve. You can prolly deal with axes or swords for pve.
Swords is best for pve, get a sword if you can.
Your dps will be much less with blood frenzy, but tank threat will be up and so will others dps. Which will offset your lack of dps.
Fury still does a ton of dmg and is very viable. There wasnt really a nerf to it at all.
Arena is harder atm, long Q's and everyone in resil gear make it harder. Fury was never really viable in arenas. MS has always been king.
You wanna be maces for pvp, but its shit for pve. You can prolly deal with axes or swords for pve.
Swords is best for pve, get a sword if you can.
Your dps will be much less with blood frenzy, but tank threat will be up and so will others dps. Which will offset your lack of dps.
Fury still does a ton of dmg and is very viable. There wasnt really a nerf to it at all.
Xtreat, I think you're saying thats your buffed AP. Your gonna start stacking armor pen on gear and losing a lot of crit for it. Start stacking crit in your gem sockets.
I have 3 level 70 characters. a rogue, priest, and my 70 warrior. I of course play my warrior the most for it is the best class in WoW.
I have played since release and all that jazz... as a 70 fury warrior you wont have the luxury of doing awesome in pvp since you are a pve spec. I like the hybrid axe spec i have tried it and it works pretty nicely but with the implementation of the new WW and the new 41 point talent you should try a fury/arms spec going down further into fury. I know you said you did but that is where fury will make you happy trust me. right now on my fury warrior not greatly geared i have about 1800 AP in zerker stance about 30% to crit and somewhere around 180 hit rating which isnt amazing. But your going to have to get over the intercept in the arms tree now and no more death wish boo hoo sweeping strikes is very nice at times anyways. The 10% aggro reduction means i wont pull from autoattacking anymore and rampage + imp berserker stance and commanding presence puts me well over 2.2k AP in raids self buffed. As a fury warrior dont expect to be that viable for pvp im sorry just dont unless you have full merc and/or some s3 gear. Also you dont leave zerker stance as a fury warrior there is no reason to ever be in battle stance.. that imp overpower is garbage for us if thats what your after unless your about to die and wanna throw a sword and board on slap in def stance.
Some earlier math done on Cleave and actually supporting imp cleave for raiding is a noob idea not to attack anyone but end game dont actually expect to be cleaving/sweeping strikes/WW targets like mad you will just pull something/ break a sheep and die as you deserve.
Heroic strike is usefull for when BT and WW are both on cooldown and you have lots of extra rage if you have low rage generation for some reason HS will only hurt you for when BT comes back up you wont beable to use it.
Also math done on hit rating could be right not 100% positive about the roll table you used on page 51 or something i think that could be wrong since you threw crit into the equation of chances i think that is not included it is inlcuded in a later table after it has been conlcuded whether you will be dodged/parried/or actually hit the target.
For the new WW im not sure if anyone as stated a macro like this or what.. maybe alot of people are switching to slow MH weapons because of it? which is not necessary just macro it up somethine like this of course using w/e weapons you do have.
/equipslot 17 Decapitator
/cast Whirlwind
/equipslot 17 Merciless Gladiator's Quickblade
that replaces your offhand momentarily with a slower weapon and casts WW then replaces it again with your faster off hand.. i havent gotten to test it in raids yet really i havent found a slower offhand worth using yet i did test it out on a normal mob think you will have to press the macro twice but yea thats my 2 cents.
I have played since release and all that jazz... as a 70 fury warrior you wont have the luxury of doing awesome in pvp since you are a pve spec. I like the hybrid axe spec i have tried it and it works pretty nicely but with the implementation of the new WW and the new 41 point talent you should try a fury/arms spec going down further into fury. I know you said you did but that is where fury will make you happy trust me. right now on my fury warrior not greatly geared i have about 1800 AP in zerker stance about 30% to crit and somewhere around 180 hit rating which isnt amazing. But your going to have to get over the intercept in the arms tree now and no more death wish boo hoo sweeping strikes is very nice at times anyways. The 10% aggro reduction means i wont pull from autoattacking anymore and rampage + imp berserker stance and commanding presence puts me well over 2.2k AP in raids self buffed. As a fury warrior dont expect to be that viable for pvp im sorry just dont unless you have full merc and/or some s3 gear. Also you dont leave zerker stance as a fury warrior there is no reason to ever be in battle stance.. that imp overpower is garbage for us if thats what your after unless your about to die and wanna throw a sword and board on slap in def stance.
Some earlier math done on Cleave and actually supporting imp cleave for raiding is a noob idea not to attack anyone but end game dont actually expect to be cleaving/sweeping strikes/WW targets like mad you will just pull something/ break a sheep and die as you deserve.
Heroic strike is usefull for when BT and WW are both on cooldown and you have lots of extra rage if you have low rage generation for some reason HS will only hurt you for when BT comes back up you wont beable to use it.
Also math done on hit rating could be right not 100% positive about the roll table you used on page 51 or something i think that could be wrong since you threw crit into the equation of chances i think that is not included it is inlcuded in a later table after it has been conlcuded whether you will be dodged/parried/or actually hit the target.
For the new WW im not sure if anyone as stated a macro like this or what.. maybe alot of people are switching to slow MH weapons because of it? which is not necessary just macro it up somethine like this of course using w/e weapons you do have.
/equipslot 17 Decapitator
/cast Whirlwind
/equipslot 17 Merciless Gladiator's Quickblade
that replaces your offhand momentarily with a slower weapon and casts WW then replaces it again with your faster off hand.. i havent gotten to test it in raids yet really i havent found a slower offhand worth using yet i did test it out on a normal mob think you will have to press the macro twice but yea thats my 2 cents.
My guild is about to start moving into hyjal and BT. Im not sure what i should upgrade my offhand to either it be a rising tide, syphon or a swiftsteel blungeon. Any thoughts? Here is my armory - http://www.wowarmory.com/character-s...=Eredar&n=Zado
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Originally Posted by Zadus
My guild is about to start moving into hyjal and BT. Im not sure what i should upgrade my offhand to either it be a rising tide, syphon or a swiftsteel blungeon. Any thoughts? Here is my armory - The World of Warcraft Armory
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Originally Posted by volcarr
/equipslot 17 Decapitator
/cast Whirlwind /equipslot 17 Merciless Gladiator's Quickblade |
1.5s on WW
1.5s on equip
=
4.5 for 1 move when you're not even autoattacking? With 10s being the generic WW c/d I wouldn't view this as a way to boost dps.
With the exception to execute range swaps, find a MH/OH combo you are comfortable with, and smash face with it. Avoid swaps where not necessary.
yeah i think i'm just going to have to accept that blizzard is forcing a play style on us.. PvP or PvE
and start farming gear appropriate for what i like to do. Both..
I think I'll go the route of sword spec fury.. with the changes to human racial skills
I figure using all my heroic tokens on the fury set made from left over wicker funiture
and slowly work at getting season 2 & 3 stuff for better pvp play and use a 2h
another question is.. if i stick with PvE & casually do PvP is the sword/spec fury especially with the swords found in ZA better or worse then the strong attack power build of a full fury spec .
after 3 years of playing a well rounded versatile warrior i been feeling backed into a corner to choose
a direction.
and start farming gear appropriate for what i like to do. Both..
I think I'll go the route of sword spec fury.. with the changes to human racial skills
I figure using all my heroic tokens on the fury set made from left over wicker funiture
and slowly work at getting season 2 & 3 stuff for better pvp play and use a 2h
another question is.. if i stick with PvE & casually do PvP is the sword/spec fury especially with the swords found in ZA better or worse then the strong attack power build of a full fury spec .
after 3 years of playing a well rounded versatile warrior i been feeling backed into a corner to choose
a direction.
You have been backed into that corner for a year now. The recent changes really didnt do anything. Hybrid sword spec is really nice, our fury warrior ran with it fro a long while. After 2.3 though you really are missing too much in the f ury tree. Raid buffed your missing around 600 AP, plus probably some -miss and + hit talents. Swords are good, but itll probably be more dps for you to go with a more classic 17/44/0 build. You cant really pick up MS without blowing your Fury tree totally, so sword spec wont help you any more in pvp then 17/44/0.
If you really wanna salvage it you should go Blood frenzy, make your raid happy and still be able to pvp.
Also, the heroic badge fury gear is pretty awful. Lots of wasted item budget on plus hit. It might be ok depending on your gear level I guess. But really you should only grab the pieces with armor pen.
If you really wanna salvage it you should go Blood frenzy, make your raid happy and still be able to pvp.
Also, the heroic badge fury gear is pretty awful. Lots of wasted item budget on plus hit. It might be ok depending on your gear level I guess. But really you should only grab the pieces with armor pen.
Okay so like 6 pages or so ago people were showing their wws of fights like teron kaz and something else i dont remember. People were comparing arms vs fury raid dps. Now obviously we all know arms offers more raid contribution as sad as that is. But what about fights that arent so stand there and slam friendly? Like vashj or fights where things cant bleed? Supremus would be a pain i would think for an arms warrior trying to slam.
I would just really like to hear from some arms warriors on how they do on fights where movement is part of the fight.
Im really conflicted on what spec to do. On one hand i look at fury and its more fun for me plus i believe it will offer more consistant dps on all the fights where arms wont. Then i look at arms and its pretty hard to ignore arms brings more to the raid than fury. But do i want to play it at the expense of my fun? No not really, but my guild leader just seems more excited about BF than a fury warrior.
Id like to hear everyones thoughts especially arms warriors.
I would just really like to hear from some arms warriors on how they do on fights where movement is part of the fight.
Im really conflicted on what spec to do. On one hand i look at fury and its more fun for me plus i believe it will offer more consistant dps on all the fights where arms wont. Then i look at arms and its pretty hard to ignore arms brings more to the raid than fury. But do i want to play it at the expense of my fun? No not really, but my guild leader just seems more excited about BF than a fury warrior.
Id like to hear everyones thoughts especially arms warriors.
Although you have concern, there aren't many bosses that require constant moving. Even on Vashj it is reasonable to stand still for the 0.5 seconds for a slam to go off. On supremeus, you shouldn't melee in phase 2 anyway =). I wouldn't keep this as a concern.
Here are some of the things I have considered that may or may not help your decision.
- 2H PVE gear works better in PVP than DW PVE gear. If you plan to PVP casually, building a 2H PVE set will get you more than a DW set. This also applies to talent respec's--if you are cheap and don't want to respec between PVE/PVP, 2H is the way to go.
- 2H requires more attention and timing to maximize DPS, while DW fury is mostly cooldown spamming. If you have a high/variable ping, terrible timing, or distractions in your gaming area you will probably do better as Fury. As a raid leader I stick to DW fury.
- Are there other warriors that you compete with for raid spots? If so, 2H will give you an advantage in progression encounters.
I hope some of this helps.
Here are some of the things I have considered that may or may not help your decision.
- 2H PVE gear works better in PVP than DW PVE gear. If you plan to PVP casually, building a 2H PVE set will get you more than a DW set. This also applies to talent respec's--if you are cheap and don't want to respec between PVE/PVP, 2H is the way to go.
- 2H requires more attention and timing to maximize DPS, while DW fury is mostly cooldown spamming. If you have a high/variable ping, terrible timing, or distractions in your gaming area you will probably do better as Fury. As a raid leader I stick to DW fury.
- Are there other warriors that you compete with for raid spots? If so, 2H will give you an advantage in progression encounters.
I hope some of this helps.
As everyone is indicating, you really do have to choose PvE or PvP if you want only one gear set. That said, money is easy to come by and my guild has several people who spec for raids half the week and PvP the other half. Yes it's 100+ gold a week, but that's less then 2 days of Skettis & Ogrilla dailies.
As a raid leader I tend to look at DW fury warriors as a rogue who can't vanish. To me, a DW Fury build just doesn't bring anything "extra" to the dance. In the world of synergy, and Arms warrior with Blood Frenzy is just too important. We have had raids with 10+ people doing physical damage. That alone can make the difference between downing a boss or hitting an enrage timer with 3-5% left.
I just tend to think of Fury warriors as filler when we don't have more effective classes.
As a raid leader I tend to look at DW fury warriors as a rogue who can't vanish. To me, a DW Fury build just doesn't bring anything "extra" to the dance. In the world of synergy, and Arms warrior with Blood Frenzy is just too important. We have had raids with 10+ people doing physical damage. That alone can make the difference between downing a boss or hitting an enrage timer with 3-5% left.
I just tend to think of Fury warriors as filler when we don't have more effective classes.
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Originally Posted by Uglesh
As everyone is indicating, you really do have to choose PvE or PvP if you want only one gear set. That said, money is easy to come by and my guild has several people who spec for raids half the week and PvP the other half. Yes it's 100+ gold a week, but that's less then 2 days of Skettis & Ogrilla dailies.
As a raid leader I tend to look at DW fury warriors as a rogue who can't vanish. To me, a DW Fury build just doesn't bring anything "extra" to the dance. In the world of synergy, and Arms warrior with Blood Frenzy is just too important. We have had raids with 10+ people doing physical damage. That alone can make the difference between downing a boss or hitting an enrage timer with 3-5% left. I just tend to think of Fury warriors as filler when we don't have more effective classes. |
I'm not sure how a DW fury warrior is a rogue who can't vanish? On many occasions I tank trash, and I provide a very nice 400 AP bonus to the melee group, not to mention my steady and consistent DPS which isn't far off of our rogues. Fury warrior's are not fillers, and it's sad to think your are a raid leader.
I think he meant compared to an arms warrior. Where an arms warrior can off tank things and provide the same ap buff you can while also providing 4 percent physical damage on a target.
I'm geared for either spec having a dragonstrike and merc offhand for fury and having a lionheart executioner for ms pve until i get an upgrade to that.
Im leaning more towards ms pve because when it all comes down to it, you cant ignore what BF brings. Imo they should switch imp slam with Blood Frenzy.
I'm geared for either spec having a dragonstrike and merc offhand for fury and having a lionheart executioner for ms pve until i get an upgrade to that.
Im leaning more towards ms pve because when it all comes down to it, you cant ignore what BF brings. Imo they should switch imp slam with Blood Frenzy.
Ok ive seen this trinket talked about with fury warriors but what about pve arms warriors? Solarian's sapphire? Does it really add enough to the groups dps to drop one of my current trinkets because my guild laughs at it and shards it everytime it drops i just decided to take it for free this time. And how much will it hurt my dps being arms? I currently use beserker's Call and hourglass. I would be replacing the hourglass.
350 attack power...what the hell could beat it?
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Originally Posted by Zadus
Ok ive seen this trinket talked about with fury warriors but what about pve arms warriors? Solarian's sapphire? Does it really add enough to the groups dps to drop one of my current trinkets because my guild laughs at it and shards it everytime it drops i just decided to take it for free this time. And how much will it hurt my dps being arms? I currently use beserker's Call and hourglass. I would be replacing the hourglass.
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Just set a Itemrack setting to swop it out when not in a raid.
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Originally Posted by Zadus
Ok ive seen this trinket talked about with fury warriors but what about pve arms warriors? Solarian's sapphire? Does it really add enough to the groups dps to drop one of my current trinkets because my guild laughs at it and shards it everytime it drops i just decided to take it for free this time. And how much will it hurt my dps being arms? I currently use beserker's Call and hourglass. I would be replacing the hourglass.
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The trinket provides atleast 350AP in a good group, its quite sad if your guild does not see this.
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Originally Posted by Hraithmar
Hey all, first time poster here, long time reader. I need help as far as DPS'ing goes because I must be doing something wrong. Link to armory: The World of Warcraft Armory
On the DPS friendly fights, like Teron and Morogrim, I *BARELY* break over 1k sustained DPS. Before BC I was a DPS monster and totally crushed, but now it's like, I just can't perform like I used to. I have proper DPS rotations, I don't have much lag. Sadly I don't have any WWS logs right now because our raid leader stopped uploading, but I'll try to get some. Once I get some I'll link em. Any advice would be appreciated. Thanks for reading. |
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Originally Posted by Zadus
Ok ive seen this trinket talked about with fury warriors but what about pve arms warriors? Solarian's sapphire? Does it really add enough to the groups dps to drop one of my current trinkets because my guild laughs at it and shards it everytime it drops i just decided to take it for free this time. And how much will it hurt my dps being arms? I currently use beserker's Call and hourglass. I would be replacing the hourglass.
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By providing a massive 435AP for your group (if you have an enh shaman) it is probably the best trinket in the game, any category.
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Originally Posted by Zadus
I would just really like to hear from some arms warriors on how they do on fights where movement is part of the fight.
(...) But do i want to play it at the expense of my fun? No not really, but my guild leader just seems more excited about BF than a fury warrior. |
There is some difficulty in fights where you have to move a lot, but it isn't anything dramatic. Loot wise it's very nice you can get all the weapons (and many plate items) that would otherwise go to waste or to off-specc.
The big downside to MS is that it is more support dependant than fury. Without a shaman your dps will be poor. And when you dps starts to fly you realize you are limited unless you shaman is enhancement and you don't get a feral on a regular basis on your group. So, look at your raid classes before deciding, as they will be important determining your success.
This said I think it's pretty viable to bring a fury warrior to a raid, especially if they are prepared to tank when the chance arises, and if you have a caster heavy team.
I really got my answer last nite if pve ms would suffer horribly on a very non stationary fight. We fought vashj and i ended up coming out on top over everyone. I know this obviously isnt the best in the world boss to test dps becuase everyone is moving around doing a job. But for the most part all the melee are doing the exact same thing i am and im more penalized seeign as a moving target is more difficult for me.
All in all im pretty pleased with the results and was shocked when i looked at the meters after she was down.
All in all im pretty pleased with the results and was shocked when i looked at the meters after she was down.
Hey Fjoryn, yea I remember you. I'm getting all the normal raid stuff, FF, Sunder, Blessing, the usual raid enhancements. I just don't know what it is. I should have some WWS logs pretty soon.
Id probably stick with dragon strike actually. Stick some cutioner on it, and its probably higher over all dps then a rising tide, which imo is a pretty shitty dps weapon. Ton of wasted stats on stam.
I’m glad I found this thread, I am at a crossroads here. Being a warrior with over 200 days played from the beginning of wow & no alts. I don’t think I have ever been so frustrated.
This week I changed spec twice. I started as a tank until I got into BWL & started going deeper in the fury tree for piercing howl. Gaining more capable tanks in the guild & just plain getting sick of tanking & being asked to tank every god forsaken instance got old. I Tried MS and was completely bored with it. Went to fury. Great love it. Developed a nice balance in PvE & PvP. Destroying people in both. And it’s pretty much been that way for over a year & a half. But patch after patch after patch etc, have really changed warrior dps and rolls. Being a horrible typist I managed to get around the conditional macros. My reaction times got a bit worse but nothing to make much of a difference. I noticed more a difference with the haste nerf & change to flurry. Annoying but nothing that bugged me much. Still able to crank out some top dps numbers.
At the time my spec was nearly ideal for both pvp & pve. With arms talents up to sweeping strikes, with axe spec. and fury up to blood thirst. Off the top of my head pushing averages of 33%+ crit , hit 12%+ and 1600+ AP with no buffs or stance factors. Veterans’ gear , T4, everything from Gruul & mulgar, some SSC, and gladiator. Using the ugly as sin Gladiator Axe & Malchazeen both with mongoose as DW & Gorehowl w/ savagery. All gemmed & enchanted. A nice balance between raiding & pvp, 2h or 2w.
Come patch 2.3 . I find myself at a loss with dps. With the change to the trees, PvP has considerably been more challenging. With the loss to imp intercept and a buncha noobs farming honor for gladiator. The resilience & added health has become a factor it seems, and the lack of a descent cool down to chase down people in a rush.
Also my raid dps gets nerfed from threat. Also very raid unfriendly spec with using cleaves & the new whirlwind & making everything around me bleed & breaking CC’s and often getting myself killed. Though I'm not that careless it still happens from time to time. Much of my dps is lost when I'm forced to single target focus unless I have the luxury of a windfury. I could alter the arms & loss the bleed & bonus to crit, but for what. I need the points to get up to the higher brackets of arms, and the other talents are rather pointless.
So I decided to give the full fury a solid go. Losing 5% crit from weapon masteries but gaining a bunch of AP with the berserker stance talent & commanding presence & if I remember to keep my buffs up my raid dps has increase a fair amount. I find myself failing to be viable in 5 heroics mans any more and the arena has been a complete disaster. Mobs in 5 mans simple aren’t alive long enough for all the goodies of fury to take action. And resilience hurting the rampage buff, weapon expertise hurting the use of overpower, loss of deathwish & being fear bombed, and stance dancing constantly changing my AP, Arena has suffered the most.
Seems as if blizzards intent was to separate the arm/fury trees to be either PvP or PvE. Not that I like it but I guess it makes sense. So being all pissed off, I Spec Mortal strike. Arena got slightly better, a noticeable difference as for being able to PvP better with the some talents back and being a rather rusty with an MS build I’m sure it will get better. I haven’t raided with it yet, I’m sure I’m going to be bored, with my guild’s slump in raiding 25 mans. I’m rather bored as it is & I’m not sure I want that to happen.
With the new token reward geared toward the full fury spec and some nice swords & armor with haste & penetration in ZA. I’m leaning toward an Arms/Fury sword spec hybrid. Thinking that will solve much of my frustration but that’s a matter of time since ZA so far hasn’t been too challenging. There I OT pretty effectively in my tank gear, with the hybrid axe spec keeping my crit high enough, I don’t get rage starved and my TPS in full tank gear is much better with the change to Tactical Mastery. There is no problems when I tank the bear form. Even losing the crit with full fury tanking the bear form has yet to pose any problems. So I’m not too worried about my off tanking abilities. I’m sure I will be finding soon enough out how well MS OT’ing will fair.
I’m going to give MS a go for the week, but I have a feeling I will be spec’ing back to arm/fury & probably concentrating in 2H fury with imp slam for some burst dps in pvp by intercept stuns, use HS while charging then slam, bloodthrist, & WW if I got the rage. I also have thought about fighting cheese with cheese & farming honor for resilience & be the typical cookie cutter 2h MS warrior, but that’s not my style. And being in alliance battlegrounds is totally pathetic now, the honor grind is laughable. Pulling less then 200 honor in WSG on a holiday weekend and losing way more AVs then winning. Soooo depressing.
I considered the option of going mace spec hybrid for the pvp , but my MTs’ suggest otherwise, the last thing I need is to nerf their rage & threat when I raid. I’m sure if I play enough Arena & even losing enough I’d be able to scoop up most of the season 2 or 3 stuff. But like much of warrior gear , the stuff is so poorly itemized to fit a descent DW fury spec. besides the gain in resilience the stats aren’t that much different unless I grind it & deck out in season 3 and stick with 2h and using the token reward gear for DW in raids. With averaging 30 tokens a week with a 2 hour kara zerg and some heroics, even then it’s a few months worth of grinding
So you see at this moment I’m at a loss on what to do & where to fit in. it seems my toon has changed in every aspect of the game over night. Up until the recent changes it wasn’t that way at all. Being an old skool player I’m frustrated way more then I should be over some game like never before.
Any advice before I roll a Lock? sorry for being long winded
N
This week I changed spec twice. I started as a tank until I got into BWL & started going deeper in the fury tree for piercing howl. Gaining more capable tanks in the guild & just plain getting sick of tanking & being asked to tank every god forsaken instance got old. I Tried MS and was completely bored with it. Went to fury. Great love it. Developed a nice balance in PvE & PvP. Destroying people in both. And it’s pretty much been that way for over a year & a half. But patch after patch after patch etc, have really changed warrior dps and rolls. Being a horrible typist I managed to get around the conditional macros. My reaction times got a bit worse but nothing to make much of a difference. I noticed more a difference with the haste nerf & change to flurry. Annoying but nothing that bugged me much. Still able to crank out some top dps numbers.
At the time my spec was nearly ideal for both pvp & pve. With arms talents up to sweeping strikes, with axe spec. and fury up to blood thirst. Off the top of my head pushing averages of 33%+ crit , hit 12%+ and 1600+ AP with no buffs or stance factors. Veterans’ gear , T4, everything from Gruul & mulgar, some SSC, and gladiator. Using the ugly as sin Gladiator Axe & Malchazeen both with mongoose as DW & Gorehowl w/ savagery. All gemmed & enchanted. A nice balance between raiding & pvp, 2h or 2w.
Come patch 2.3 . I find myself at a loss with dps. With the change to the trees, PvP has considerably been more challenging. With the loss to imp intercept and a buncha noobs farming honor for gladiator. The resilience & added health has become a factor it seems, and the lack of a descent cool down to chase down people in a rush.
Also my raid dps gets nerfed from threat. Also very raid unfriendly spec with using cleaves & the new whirlwind & making everything around me bleed & breaking CC’s and often getting myself killed. Though I'm not that careless it still happens from time to time. Much of my dps is lost when I'm forced to single target focus unless I have the luxury of a windfury. I could alter the arms & loss the bleed & bonus to crit, but for what. I need the points to get up to the higher brackets of arms, and the other talents are rather pointless.
So I decided to give the full fury a solid go. Losing 5% crit from weapon masteries but gaining a bunch of AP with the berserker stance talent & commanding presence & if I remember to keep my buffs up my raid dps has increase a fair amount. I find myself failing to be viable in 5 heroics mans any more and the arena has been a complete disaster. Mobs in 5 mans simple aren’t alive long enough for all the goodies of fury to take action. And resilience hurting the rampage buff, weapon expertise hurting the use of overpower, loss of deathwish & being fear bombed, and stance dancing constantly changing my AP, Arena has suffered the most.
Seems as if blizzards intent was to separate the arm/fury trees to be either PvP or PvE. Not that I like it but I guess it makes sense. So being all pissed off, I Spec Mortal strike. Arena got slightly better, a noticeable difference as for being able to PvP better with the some talents back and being a rather rusty with an MS build I’m sure it will get better. I haven’t raided with it yet, I’m sure I’m going to be bored, with my guild’s slump in raiding 25 mans. I’m rather bored as it is & I’m not sure I want that to happen.
With the new token reward geared toward the full fury spec and some nice swords & armor with haste & penetration in ZA. I’m leaning toward an Arms/Fury sword spec hybrid. Thinking that will solve much of my frustration but that’s a matter of time since ZA so far hasn’t been too challenging. There I OT pretty effectively in my tank gear, with the hybrid axe spec keeping my crit high enough, I don’t get rage starved and my TPS in full tank gear is much better with the change to Tactical Mastery. There is no problems when I tank the bear form. Even losing the crit with full fury tanking the bear form has yet to pose any problems. So I’m not too worried about my off tanking abilities. I’m sure I will be finding soon enough out how well MS OT’ing will fair.
I’m going to give MS a go for the week, but I have a feeling I will be spec’ing back to arm/fury & probably concentrating in 2H fury with imp slam for some burst dps in pvp by intercept stuns, use HS while charging then slam, bloodthrist, & WW if I got the rage. I also have thought about fighting cheese with cheese & farming honor for resilience & be the typical cookie cutter 2h MS warrior, but that’s not my style. And being in alliance battlegrounds is totally pathetic now, the honor grind is laughable. Pulling less then 200 honor in WSG on a holiday weekend and losing way more AVs then winning. Soooo depressing.
I considered the option of going mace spec hybrid for the pvp , but my MTs’ suggest otherwise, the last thing I need is to nerf their rage & threat when I raid. I’m sure if I play enough Arena & even losing enough I’d be able to scoop up most of the season 2 or 3 stuff. But like much of warrior gear , the stuff is so poorly itemized to fit a descent DW fury spec. besides the gain in resilience the stats aren’t that much different unless I grind it & deck out in season 3 and stick with 2h and using the token reward gear for DW in raids. With averaging 30 tokens a week with a 2 hour kara zerg and some heroics, even then it’s a few months worth of grinding
So you see at this moment I’m at a loss on what to do & where to fit in. it seems my toon has changed in every aspect of the game over night. Up until the recent changes it wasn’t that way at all. Being an old skool player I’m frustrated way more then I should be over some game like never before.
Any advice before I roll a Lock? sorry for being long winded
N
I almost don't want to go after this last guy, I am afraid maybe I'll wind up in the dungheap with him.
I am bit confused about at what point i should lessen my priority on AP and start using 4str-4crit gems instead of all 8str. Currently I am at 2100AP and 33% crit. I am in BT so i have access to epic gems as well.
I am bit confused about at what point i should lessen my priority on AP and start using 4str-4crit gems instead of all 8str. Currently I am at 2100AP and 33% crit. I am in BT so i have access to epic gems as well.
Not sure what exaclty your asking for man, its a lot of confusion and probably a lot of unnecessary info. Lemme see if i can help at all.
Arena is harder atm, long Q's and everyone in resil gear make it harder. Fury was never really viable in arenas. MS has always been king.
You wanna be maces for pvp, but its shit for pve. You can prolly deal with axes or swords for pve.
Swords is best for pve, get a sword if you can.
Your dps will be much less with blood frenzy, but tank threat will be up and so will others dps. Which will offset your lack of dps.
Fury still does a ton of dmg and is very viable. There wasnt really a nerf to it at all.
Arena is harder atm, long Q's and everyone in resil gear make it harder. Fury was never really viable in arenas. MS has always been king.
You wanna be maces for pvp, but its shit for pve. You can prolly deal with axes or swords for pve.
Swords is best for pve, get a sword if you can.
Your dps will be much less with blood frenzy, but tank threat will be up and so will others dps. Which will offset your lack of dps.
Fury still does a ton of dmg and is very viable. There wasnt really a nerf to it at all.
Xtreat, I think you're saying thats your buffed AP. Your gonna start stacking armor pen on gear and losing a lot of crit for it. Start stacking crit in your gem sockets.
I have 3 level 70 characters. a rogue, priest, and my 70 warrior. I of course play my warrior the most for it is the best class in WoW.
I have played since release and all that jazz... as a 70 fury warrior you wont have the luxury of doing awesome in pvp since you are a pve spec. I like the hybrid axe spec i have tried it and it works pretty nicely but with the implementation of the new WW and the new 41 point talent you should try a fury/arms spec going down further into fury. I know you said you did but that is where fury will make you happy trust me. right now on my fury warrior not greatly geared i have about 1800 AP in zerker stance about 30% to crit and somewhere around 180 hit rating which isnt amazing. But your going to have to get over the intercept in the arms tree now and no more death wish boo hoo sweeping strikes is very nice at times anyways. The 10% aggro reduction means i wont pull from autoattacking anymore and rampage + imp berserker stance and commanding presence puts me well over 2.2k AP in raids self buffed. As a fury warrior dont expect to be that viable for pvp im sorry just dont unless you have full merc and/or some s3 gear. Also you dont leave zerker stance as a fury warrior there is no reason to ever be in battle stance.. that imp overpower is garbage for us if thats what your after unless your about to die and wanna throw a sword and board on slap in def stance.
Some earlier math done on Cleave and actually supporting imp cleave for raiding is a noob idea not to attack anyone but end game dont actually expect to be cleaving/sweeping strikes/WW targets like mad you will just pull something/ break a sheep and die as you deserve.
Heroic strike is usefull for when BT and WW are both on cooldown and you have lots of extra rage if you have low rage generation for some reason HS will only hurt you for when BT comes back up you wont beable to use it.
Also math done on hit rating could be right not 100% positive about the roll table you used on page 51 or something i think that could be wrong since you threw crit into the equation of chances i think that is not included it is inlcuded in a later table after it has been conlcuded whether you will be dodged/parried/or actually hit the target.
For the new WW im not sure if anyone as stated a macro like this or what.. maybe alot of people are switching to slow MH weapons because of it? which is not necessary just macro it up somethine like this of course using w/e weapons you do have.
/equipslot 17 Decapitator
/cast Whirlwind
/equipslot 17 Merciless Gladiator's Quickblade
that replaces your offhand momentarily with a slower weapon and casts WW then replaces it again with your faster off hand.. i havent gotten to test it in raids yet really i havent found a slower offhand worth using yet i did test it out on a normal mob think you will have to press the macro twice but yea thats my 2 cents.
I have played since release and all that jazz... as a 70 fury warrior you wont have the luxury of doing awesome in pvp since you are a pve spec. I like the hybrid axe spec i have tried it and it works pretty nicely but with the implementation of the new WW and the new 41 point talent you should try a fury/arms spec going down further into fury. I know you said you did but that is where fury will make you happy trust me. right now on my fury warrior not greatly geared i have about 1800 AP in zerker stance about 30% to crit and somewhere around 180 hit rating which isnt amazing. But your going to have to get over the intercept in the arms tree now and no more death wish boo hoo sweeping strikes is very nice at times anyways. The 10% aggro reduction means i wont pull from autoattacking anymore and rampage + imp berserker stance and commanding presence puts me well over 2.2k AP in raids self buffed. As a fury warrior dont expect to be that viable for pvp im sorry just dont unless you have full merc and/or some s3 gear. Also you dont leave zerker stance as a fury warrior there is no reason to ever be in battle stance.. that imp overpower is garbage for us if thats what your after unless your about to die and wanna throw a sword and board on slap in def stance.
Some earlier math done on Cleave and actually supporting imp cleave for raiding is a noob idea not to attack anyone but end game dont actually expect to be cleaving/sweeping strikes/WW targets like mad you will just pull something/ break a sheep and die as you deserve.
Heroic strike is usefull for when BT and WW are both on cooldown and you have lots of extra rage if you have low rage generation for some reason HS will only hurt you for when BT comes back up you wont beable to use it.
Also math done on hit rating could be right not 100% positive about the roll table you used on page 51 or something i think that could be wrong since you threw crit into the equation of chances i think that is not included it is inlcuded in a later table after it has been conlcuded whether you will be dodged/parried/or actually hit the target.
For the new WW im not sure if anyone as stated a macro like this or what.. maybe alot of people are switching to slow MH weapons because of it? which is not necessary just macro it up somethine like this of course using w/e weapons you do have.
/equipslot 17 Decapitator
/cast Whirlwind
/equipslot 17 Merciless Gladiator's Quickblade
that replaces your offhand momentarily with a slower weapon and casts WW then replaces it again with your faster off hand.. i havent gotten to test it in raids yet really i havent found a slower offhand worth using yet i did test it out on a normal mob think you will have to press the macro twice but yea thats my 2 cents.
My guild is about to start moving into hyjal and BT. Im not sure what i should upgrade my offhand to either it be a rising tide, syphon or a swiftsteel blungeon. Any thoughts? Here is my armory - http://www.wowarmory.com/character-s...=Eredar&n=Zado
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Originally Posted by Zadus
My guild is about to start moving into hyjal and BT. Im not sure what i should upgrade my offhand to either it be a rising tide, syphon or a swiftsteel blungeon. Any thoughts? Here is my armory - The World of Warcraft Armory
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Originally Posted by volcarr
/equipslot 17 Decapitator
/cast Whirlwind /equipslot 17 Merciless Gladiator's Quickblade |
1.5s on WW
1.5s on equip
=
4.5 for 1 move when you're not even autoattacking? With 10s being the generic WW c/d I wouldn't view this as a way to boost dps.
With the exception to execute range swaps, find a MH/OH combo you are comfortable with, and smash face with it. Avoid swaps where not necessary.
yeah i think i'm just going to have to accept that blizzard is forcing a play style on us.. PvP or PvE
and start farming gear appropriate for what i like to do. Both..
I think I'll go the route of sword spec fury.. with the changes to human racial skills
I figure using all my heroic tokens on the fury set made from left over wicker funiture
and slowly work at getting season 2 & 3 stuff for better pvp play and use a 2h
another question is.. if i stick with PvE & casually do PvP is the sword/spec fury especially with the swords found in ZA better or worse then the strong attack power build of a full fury spec .
after 3 years of playing a well rounded versatile warrior i been feeling backed into a corner to choose
a direction.
and start farming gear appropriate for what i like to do. Both..
I think I'll go the route of sword spec fury.. with the changes to human racial skills
I figure using all my heroic tokens on the fury set made from left over wicker funiture
and slowly work at getting season 2 & 3 stuff for better pvp play and use a 2h
another question is.. if i stick with PvE & casually do PvP is the sword/spec fury especially with the swords found in ZA better or worse then the strong attack power build of a full fury spec .
after 3 years of playing a well rounded versatile warrior i been feeling backed into a corner to choose
a direction.
You have been backed into that corner for a year now. The recent changes really didnt do anything. Hybrid sword spec is really nice, our fury warrior ran with it fro a long while. After 2.3 though you really are missing too much in the f ury tree. Raid buffed your missing around 600 AP, plus probably some -miss and + hit talents. Swords are good, but itll probably be more dps for you to go with a more classic 17/44/0 build. You cant really pick up MS without blowing your Fury tree totally, so sword spec wont help you any more in pvp then 17/44/0.
If you really wanna salvage it you should go Blood frenzy, make your raid happy and still be able to pvp.
Also, the heroic badge fury gear is pretty awful. Lots of wasted item budget on plus hit. It might be ok depending on your gear level I guess. But really you should only grab the pieces with armor pen.
If you really wanna salvage it you should go Blood frenzy, make your raid happy and still be able to pvp.
Also, the heroic badge fury gear is pretty awful. Lots of wasted item budget on plus hit. It might be ok depending on your gear level I guess. But really you should only grab the pieces with armor pen.
Okay so like 6 pages or so ago people were showing their wws of fights like teron kaz and something else i dont remember. People were comparing arms vs fury raid dps. Now obviously we all know arms offers more raid contribution as sad as that is. But what about fights that arent so stand there and slam friendly? Like vashj or fights where things cant bleed? Supremus would be a pain i would think for an arms warrior trying to slam.
I would just really like to hear from some arms warriors on how they do on fights where movement is part of the fight.
Im really conflicted on what spec to do. On one hand i look at fury and its more fun for me plus i believe it will offer more consistant dps on all the fights where arms wont. Then i look at arms and its pretty hard to ignore arms brings more to the raid than fury. But do i want to play it at the expense of my fun? No not really, but my guild leader just seems more excited about BF than a fury warrior.
Id like to hear everyones thoughts especially arms warriors.
I would just really like to hear from some arms warriors on how they do on fights where movement is part of the fight.
Im really conflicted on what spec to do. On one hand i look at fury and its more fun for me plus i believe it will offer more consistant dps on all the fights where arms wont. Then i look at arms and its pretty hard to ignore arms brings more to the raid than fury. But do i want to play it at the expense of my fun? No not really, but my guild leader just seems more excited about BF than a fury warrior.
Id like to hear everyones thoughts especially arms warriors.
Although you have concern, there aren't many bosses that require constant moving. Even on Vashj it is reasonable to stand still for the 0.5 seconds for a slam to go off. On supremeus, you shouldn't melee in phase 2 anyway =). I wouldn't keep this as a concern.
Here are some of the things I have considered that may or may not help your decision.
- 2H PVE gear works better in PVP than DW PVE gear. If you plan to PVP casually, building a 2H PVE set will get you more than a DW set. This also applies to talent respec's--if you are cheap and don't want to respec between PVE/PVP, 2H is the way to go.
- 2H requires more attention and timing to maximize DPS, while DW fury is mostly cooldown spamming. If you have a high/variable ping, terrible timing, or distractions in your gaming area you will probably do better as Fury. As a raid leader I stick to DW fury.
- Are there other warriors that you compete with for raid spots? If so, 2H will give you an advantage in progression encounters.
I hope some of this helps.
Here are some of the things I have considered that may or may not help your decision.
- 2H PVE gear works better in PVP than DW PVE gear. If you plan to PVP casually, building a 2H PVE set will get you more than a DW set. This also applies to talent respec's--if you are cheap and don't want to respec between PVE/PVP, 2H is the way to go.
- 2H requires more attention and timing to maximize DPS, while DW fury is mostly cooldown spamming. If you have a high/variable ping, terrible timing, or distractions in your gaming area you will probably do better as Fury. As a raid leader I stick to DW fury.
- Are there other warriors that you compete with for raid spots? If so, 2H will give you an advantage in progression encounters.
I hope some of this helps.
As everyone is indicating, you really do have to choose PvE or PvP if you want only one gear set. That said, money is easy to come by and my guild has several people who spec for raids half the week and PvP the other half. Yes it's 100+ gold a week, but that's less then 2 days of Skettis & Ogrilla dailies.
As a raid leader I tend to look at DW fury warriors as a rogue who can't vanish. To me, a DW Fury build just doesn't bring anything "extra" to the dance. In the world of synergy, and Arms warrior with Blood Frenzy is just too important. We have had raids with 10+ people doing physical damage. That alone can make the difference between downing a boss or hitting an enrage timer with 3-5% left.
I just tend to think of Fury warriors as filler when we don't have more effective classes.
As a raid leader I tend to look at DW fury warriors as a rogue who can't vanish. To me, a DW Fury build just doesn't bring anything "extra" to the dance. In the world of synergy, and Arms warrior with Blood Frenzy is just too important. We have had raids with 10+ people doing physical damage. That alone can make the difference between downing a boss or hitting an enrage timer with 3-5% left.
I just tend to think of Fury warriors as filler when we don't have more effective classes.
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Originally Posted by Uglesh
As everyone is indicating, you really do have to choose PvE or PvP if you want only one gear set. That said, money is easy to come by and my guild has several people who spec for raids half the week and PvP the other half. Yes it's 100+ gold a week, but that's less then 2 days of Skettis & Ogrilla dailies.
As a raid leader I tend to look at DW fury warriors as a rogue who can't vanish. To me, a DW Fury build just doesn't bring anything "extra" to the dance. In the world of synergy, and Arms warrior with Blood Frenzy is just too important. We have had raids with 10+ people doing physical damage. That alone can make the difference between downing a boss or hitting an enrage timer with 3-5% left. I just tend to think of Fury warriors as filler when we don't have more effective classes. |
I'm not sure how a DW fury warrior is a rogue who can't vanish? On many occasions I tank trash, and I provide a very nice 400 AP bonus to the melee group, not to mention my steady and consistent DPS which isn't far off of our rogues. Fury warrior's are not fillers, and it's sad to think your are a raid leader.
I think he meant compared to an arms warrior. Where an arms warrior can off tank things and provide the same ap buff you can while also providing 4 percent physical damage on a target.
I'm geared for either spec having a dragonstrike and merc offhand for fury and having a lionheart executioner for ms pve until i get an upgrade to that.
Im leaning more towards ms pve because when it all comes down to it, you cant ignore what BF brings. Imo they should switch imp slam with Blood Frenzy.
I'm geared for either spec having a dragonstrike and merc offhand for fury and having a lionheart executioner for ms pve until i get an upgrade to that.
Im leaning more towards ms pve because when it all comes down to it, you cant ignore what BF brings. Imo they should switch imp slam with Blood Frenzy.
Ok ive seen this trinket talked about with fury warriors but what about pve arms warriors? Solarian's sapphire? Does it really add enough to the groups dps to drop one of my current trinkets because my guild laughs at it and shards it everytime it drops i just decided to take it for free this time. And how much will it hurt my dps being arms? I currently use beserker's Call and hourglass. I would be replacing the hourglass.
350 attack power...what the hell could beat it?
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Originally Posted by Zadus
Ok ive seen this trinket talked about with fury warriors but what about pve arms warriors? Solarian's sapphire? Does it really add enough to the groups dps to drop one of my current trinkets because my guild laughs at it and shards it everytime it drops i just decided to take it for free this time. And how much will it hurt my dps being arms? I currently use beserker's Call and hourglass. I would be replacing the hourglass.
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Just set a Itemrack setting to swop it out when not in a raid.
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Originally Posted by Zadus
Ok ive seen this trinket talked about with fury warriors but what about pve arms warriors? Solarian's sapphire? Does it really add enough to the groups dps to drop one of my current trinkets because my guild laughs at it and shards it everytime it drops i just decided to take it for free this time. And how much will it hurt my dps being arms? I currently use beserker's Call and hourglass. I would be replacing the hourglass.
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The trinket provides atleast 350AP in a good group, its quite sad if your guild does not see this.
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Originally Posted by Hraithmar
Hey all, first time poster here, long time reader. I need help as far as DPS'ing goes because I must be doing something wrong. Link to armory: The World of Warcraft Armory
On the DPS friendly fights, like Teron and Morogrim, I *BARELY* break over 1k sustained DPS. Before BC I was a DPS monster and totally crushed, but now it's like, I just can't perform like I used to. I have proper DPS rotations, I don't have much lag. Sadly I don't have any WWS logs right now because our raid leader stopped uploading, but I'll try to get some. Once I get some I'll link em. Any advice would be appreciated. Thanks for reading. |
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Originally Posted by Zadus
Ok ive seen this trinket talked about with fury warriors but what about pve arms warriors? Solarian's sapphire? Does it really add enough to the groups dps to drop one of my current trinkets because my guild laughs at it and shards it everytime it drops i just decided to take it for free this time. And how much will it hurt my dps being arms? I currently use beserker's Call and hourglass. I would be replacing the hourglass.
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By providing a massive 435AP for your group (if you have an enh shaman) it is probably the best trinket in the game, any category.
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Originally Posted by Zadus
I would just really like to hear from some arms warriors on how they do on fights where movement is part of the fight.
(...) But do i want to play it at the expense of my fun? No not really, but my guild leader just seems more excited about BF than a fury warrior. |
There is some difficulty in fights where you have to move a lot, but it isn't anything dramatic. Loot wise it's very nice you can get all the weapons (and many plate items) that would otherwise go to waste or to off-specc.
The big downside to MS is that it is more support dependant than fury. Without a shaman your dps will be poor. And when you dps starts to fly you realize you are limited unless you shaman is enhancement and you don't get a feral on a regular basis on your group. So, look at your raid classes before deciding, as they will be important determining your success.
This said I think it's pretty viable to bring a fury warrior to a raid, especially if they are prepared to tank when the chance arises, and if you have a caster heavy team.
I really got my answer last nite if pve ms would suffer horribly on a very non stationary fight. We fought vashj and i ended up coming out on top over everyone. I know this obviously isnt the best in the world boss to test dps becuase everyone is moving around doing a job. But for the most part all the melee are doing the exact same thing i am and im more penalized seeign as a moving target is more difficult for me.
All in all im pretty pleased with the results and was shocked when i looked at the meters after she was down.
All in all im pretty pleased with the results and was shocked when i looked at the meters after she was down.
Hey Fjoryn, yea I remember you. I'm getting all the normal raid stuff, FF, Sunder, Blessing, the usual raid enhancements. I just don't know what it is. I should have some WWS logs pretty soon.
Hey guys, I'm new to the EJ forums and looking for some advice. I've been a dual wield fury warrior for about 5 months now, and our guild just broke into BT/Hyjal. I've always been the kind of player that plans out exactly what pieces of gear he wants to get in an instance and just waits for them to drop. However with the variety of itemization in BT and Hyjal, mainly the addition of armor penetration and haste, I'm unsure as to what is going to be the largest boost to my dps. I do solid dps, though not incredible, I put out 1500-1600 dps on gorefiend typically. Anyway I was wondering if some of you more experienced warriors could give me your opinion on what i should be looking to upgrade as far as my gear. Thanks for any and all help!
Here's my armory link: The World of Warcraft Armory
Here's my armory link: The World of Warcraft Armory
So my DPS options are Dragonstrike, Swiftsteel bludgeon, and syphon of the nath
i'm kinda confused on what i should MH and what i should OH - i'm currently doing Syphon in MH and swiftsteel bludgeon in my OH - but i've been reading through all these posts and i find some people bank them, some people prefer them... confused
The World of Warcraft Armory
i'm kinda confused on what i should MH and what i should OH - i'm currently doing Syphon in MH and swiftsteel bludgeon in my OH - but i've been reading through all these posts and i find some people bank them, some people prefer them... confused
The World of Warcraft Armory
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Originally Posted by Moulman
Hey guys, I'm new to the EJ forums and looking for some advice. I've been a dual wield fury warrior for about 5 months now, and our guild just broke into BT/Hyjal. I've always been the kind of player that plans out exactly what pieces of gear he wants to get in an instance and just waits for them to drop. However with the variety of itemization in BT and Hyjal, mainly the addition of armor penetration and haste, I'm unsure as to what is going to be the largest boost to my dps. I do solid dps, though not incredible, I put out 1500-1600 dps on gorefiend typically. Anyway I was wondering if some of you more experienced warriors could give me your opinion on what i should be looking to upgrade as far as my gear. Thanks for any and all help!
Here's my armory link: The World of Warcraft Armory |
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Originally Posted by Naolin
So my DPS options are Dragonstrike, Swiftsteel bludgeon, and syphon of the nath
i'm kinda confused on what i should MH and what i should OH - i'm currently doing Syphon in MH and swiftsteel bludgeon in my OH - but i've been reading through all these posts and i find some people bank them, some people prefer them... confused The World of Warcraft Armory |
i dunno why - but i cant get it to work on my comp ><
Please correct my math on this if im wrong.
Solarian's Sapphire = 70 Attack power
70 ap x commanding presence's 25 percent = 87.5ap
87.5ap x unleashed rage's 10 percent = 96.25ap
96.25 ap x 5 melee in the group = 481.25 total ap from everyone in the group. I hope i worded that right. Thats 481 total ap that group didnt have before the trinket.
Is that math correct? If so i can definately see the huge raid benefit you get from it coupled with blood frenzy debuff.
I know i didnt include imp beserker. Im ms pve
If all this math is correct then i have one question. If you total up all 5 of the melee's ap without that 481 added to the total and then add it to it. How much would that honestly help dps wise? I guess what im trying to ask. IS there anyway to tell how much dps is being gained by the 481ap total from all 5 people.
Solarian's Sapphire = 70 Attack power
70 ap x commanding presence's 25 percent = 87.5ap
87.5ap x unleashed rage's 10 percent = 96.25ap
96.25 ap x 5 melee in the group = 481.25 total ap from everyone in the group. I hope i worded that right. Thats 481 total ap that group didnt have before the trinket.
Is that math correct? If so i can definately see the huge raid benefit you get from it coupled with blood frenzy debuff.
I know i didnt include imp beserker. Im ms pve
If all this math is correct then i have one question. If you total up all 5 of the melee's ap without that 481 added to the total and then add it to it. How much would that honestly help dps wise? I guess what im trying to ask. IS there anyway to tell how much dps is being gained by the 481ap total from all 5 people.
Your answer is easy. Simple comparison:
How obvious is your dps difference between unbuffed, and self buffed (imp bshout)?
Now consider a 'free' or 'extra' bshout collectively, split between 5 people. I'd think some things are obvious to the point that no math is needed.
How obvious is your dps difference between unbuffed, and self buffed (imp bshout)?
Now consider a 'free' or 'extra' bshout collectively, split between 5 people. I'd think some things are obvious to the point that no math is needed.
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Originally Posted by Mjollnir
Your answer is easy. Simple comparison:
How obvious is your dps difference between unbuffed, and self buffed (imp bshout)? Now consider a 'free' or 'extra' bshout collectively, split between 5 people. I'd think some things are obvious to the point that no math is needed. |
Edited onPatch 2.3.0
I honestly don't think 400 extra ap (with unleashed rage and 5/5 commanding presence) from 4 melees (not counting yourself) is deciding anything in any raid. How much percent of damage would this be for the raid - like nearly nothing? Though perhaps the 300 extra life can save your life, so you can make some extra decent dps to the end of the bossfight that could be important.
Sorry for the bad joke, but I honestly don't think, that this trinket is anywhere "good" or nearly "the best". With 30 Stamina on it, it has the opposite stat any warrior needs on a class trinket. And it is a affront to every warrior who doesn't wants to be pushed in the "you-are-only-a-supporter"-role. It's a trinket, many people force them selves to wear, because it's "the best" in bare numbers.
Just wear what you like to wear, and don't force yourself to wear this bad-designed "class trinket". Saying this, I will stay with DST/TT until I get a real upgrade.
Edit: typo
Sorry for the bad joke, but I honestly don't think, that this trinket is anywhere "good" or nearly "the best". With 30 Stamina on it, it has the opposite stat any warrior needs on a class trinket. And it is a affront to every warrior who doesn't wants to be pushed in the "you-are-only-a-supporter"-role. It's a trinket, many people force them selves to wear, because it's "the best" in bare numbers.
Just wear what you like to wear, and don't force yourself to wear this bad-designed "class trinket". Saying this, I will stay with DST/TT until I get a real upgrade.
Edit: typo
Last edited by Kaan : 12/13/07 at 9:39 PM.
+480 total AP for your party ~ +480 AP for you (within 5-10%) and +480 AP for you > any other trinket (other than pre-nerf DST)
The extra AP for the party can 'decide a raid' just as much as a DST for yourself can decide a raid. Have you never wiped at 1%?
If we had a warrior with the trinket who refused to wear it I would probably kick them out of the guild. The people in this forum are generally looking to progress their guilds and not flex their personal WWS logs.
The extra AP for the party can 'decide a raid' just as much as a DST for yourself can decide a raid. Have you never wiped at 1%?
If we had a warrior with the trinket who refused to wear it I would probably kick them out of the guild. The people in this forum are generally looking to progress their guilds and not flex their personal WWS logs.
If people keep thinking personal dps is more important then raid dps, well then they don't belong in a real raiding guild.
Also the +sta on the trinket IS usefull as there are alot of fights in mh/bt where it really helps.
Also the +sta on the trinket IS usefull as there are alot of fights in mh/bt where it really helps.
It doesn't matter how much the overall DPS raid increase is from using that trinket. The fact of the matter is that raid DPS >IS< higher with the Solarian trinket and therefore is the best option. By your argument enhancement shamans should also stop using WF totem and use agility because it's better DPS for him? Overall raid DPS is your objective, not personal DPS - no matter how small the difference is.
I don't say that this is the case with any current triket, but a time will come, maybe as soon as patch 2.4, when the additional raid DPS from the sapphire will be less, than the personal DPS from another trinket. Of course the AP bonus also scales with the gear of your melee group, but a well rounded item similar to the madness might eventually beat it.
That's the sad thing about the sapphire. It provides a nice grp DPS boost but it takes away one of your gearslots for a looong time... In a raid scenario raid DPS is alway about maximizing results. But(!) why do warriors get the grp-buff trinket? I mean rogues alway get pure personal DPS class trinkets. Why not give them something useful that increases grp/raid DPS?
It seems warriors are put into a buff/debuff role and rogues only provide dmg (3-click-rotation... woheee). They provide no other useful incentive...
The think is, where are warriors heading?
I hope with the -10% threat we can sustain our DPS output. Rouges will be in 1st spot by default of course (blizz said that) but maybe we can compete for #2-3 spot against warlocks and mages.
Btw anybody seen a rogue without a warrior ap-shout
? I noticed on early vashj kill, how their dps went down down down when no totems/LoP/BS were uppon them, because they were running around in phase2 (before we optimized positioning).
As some also mentioned BT/Hyal bosses have less armor, so we will see decreasing DPS numbers in Sunwell, I guess. Unless -armor stacks even more on T7.
It seems warriors are put into a buff/debuff role and rogues only provide dmg (3-click-rotation... woheee). They provide no other useful incentive...
The think is, where are warriors heading?
I hope with the -10% threat we can sustain our DPS output. Rouges will be in 1st spot by default of course (blizz said that) but maybe we can compete for #2-3 spot against warlocks and mages.
Btw anybody seen a rogue without a warrior ap-shout
? I noticed on early vashj kill, how their dps went down down down when no totems/LoP/BS were uppon them, because they were running around in phase2 (before we optimized positioning).As some also mentioned BT/Hyal bosses have less armor, so we will see decreasing DPS numbers in Sunwell, I guess. Unless -armor stacks even more on T7.
As soon as another trinket can provide the raid DPS increase that the sapphire does then yeah, of course one should want to change it. But I don't see that coming soon at all... Like someone said earlier, your battle shout is responsible for a lot of the rogue's damage: perhaps around 50DPS per group member.
It is interesting that rogues have never buffed the group in any way (except perhaps for hemo, but that's hardly seen due to it's impracticality), but then again, the whole melee group is based around buffing the rogues. But look at it from this point of view:
The typical setup of warrior, shaman, druid, 2x rogues usually ends up in the following on the DPS meters (with DPS stats from a random Anetheron kill):
Rogue #1 - 1770DPS
Rogue #2 - 1630DPS
Warrior - 1470DPS
Druid - 1450DPS
Shaman - 1430DPS
We're usually the top 5, depending on the encounter. If we can assume that the battle shout adds at least 50DPS per group member AND Blood Frenzy debuff adds around 200-250 DPS (I have actually done napkin math on this but I can't find it and can't be bothered to do it again just now) spread throughout the raid then the warrior contributed to the raid with around 1870-1920 DPS whereas the rogues only did what shows on the meters. I'm not too fussed about our DPS and raid position once I look at it from this point of view, tbh.
It is interesting that rogues have never buffed the group in any way (except perhaps for hemo, but that's hardly seen due to it's impracticality), but then again, the whole melee group is based around buffing the rogues. But look at it from this point of view:
The typical setup of warrior, shaman, druid, 2x rogues usually ends up in the following on the DPS meters (with DPS stats from a random Anetheron kill):
Rogue #1 - 1770DPS
Rogue #2 - 1630DPS
Warrior - 1470DPS
Druid - 1450DPS
Shaman - 1430DPS
We're usually the top 5, depending on the encounter. If we can assume that the battle shout adds at least 50DPS per group member AND Blood Frenzy debuff adds around 200-250 DPS (I have actually done napkin math on this but I can't find it and can't be bothered to do it again just now) spread throughout the raid then the warrior contributed to the raid with around 1870-1920 DPS whereas the rogues only did what shows on the meters. I'm not too fussed about our DPS and raid position once I look at it from this point of view, tbh.
You cant stack warriors/druid/shaman buffs but you can stack rogues.
Diffenrent classes scales with ap something like...
Rough numbers but these are so gear depency that cant make up betters.
1dps = ? ap
Warrior = 2.5-3
Rogue = 3
eShaman = 4
Druid = 5
So 70ap per group menber give:
warrior 23-28dps + 2* rogue 47dps + shaman 17.5dps + druid 14dps
so 102-107dps to group with one trinket to raid.
I think enhance shaman contributed that raid over 2500dps. (wf+ur+str totem, maybe even agi totem twist + fire totems hidden from wws parser)
Diffenrent classes scales with ap something like...
Rough numbers but these are so gear depency that cant make up betters.
1dps = ? ap
Warrior = 2.5-3
Rogue = 3
eShaman = 4
Druid = 5
So 70ap per group menber give:
warrior 23-28dps + 2* rogue 47dps + shaman 17.5dps + druid 14dps
so 102-107dps to group with one trinket to raid.
I think enhance shaman contributed that raid over 2500dps. (wf+ur+str totem, maybe even agi totem twist + fire totems hidden from wws parser)
It's damn crazy how much raid DPS contribution an enhancement shaman has. Not even mentioning the other members of the party, I still flip out at how much my DPS suffers when our enhance shaman is away or unable to raid; it goes down about 400-500 DPS.
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Originally Posted by Natural
If we had a warrior with the trinket who refused to wear it I would probably kick them out of the guild. The people in this forum are generally looking to progress their guilds and not flex their personal WWS logs.
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| The extra AP for the party can 'decide a raid' just as much as a DST for yourself can decide a raid. Have you never wiped at 1%? |
But anyway I'am not talking about egoism here. I'm simply talking about forcing to wear yourself a trinket, that IS bad designed, having alternatives like DST, TT or MOTB. You would kick a player out of your guild, when he doesn't LIKE to wear this, I won't, because this trinket isn't deciding in most of the time, or even the whole time. WoW isn't just about "best numbers" it's also about fun - since this is true, your arguments aren't ultimate. Just my opinion.
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Originally Posted by Kaan
It can, but probably it never will be.
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Is it good design that this one trinket is so good it will never be replaced in the whole of TBC? No, probably not. They made it a bit too good (like the pre-nerf DST, which they realised and changed). Whether they'll nerf the sapphire I don't know, but whilst we have it, if we want to do our best, we should use it.
If you would rather wear a 'cooler' trinket because you like it, that's fine. I have (on occasion) worn items that were worse than others I had, simply because 'they looked cooler'. I got the Arena S2 shoulders months ago, because I liked how good they are. I could probably have gotten a couple of small upgrades since then (nothing major), but I'd rather keep these because they look good. However, I'm not going to go to a theorycraft forum, which discusses how best to play a DPS warrior, and claim that they are better than the alternatives:
| Sorry for the bad joke, but I honestly don't think, that this trinket is anywhere "good" or nearly "the best". |
| Just wear what you like to wear, and don't force yourself to wear this bad-designed "class trinket". Saying this, I will stay with DST/TT until I get a real upgrade. |
If you don't like the design or style of the trinket, fine, but claiming it is not 'a real upgrade' or not 'good' or 'the best' is completely misinformed and inaccurate.
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Originally Posted by Kaan
I'm simply talking about forcing to wear yourself a trinket, that IS bad designed, having alternatives like DST, TT or MOTB.
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From a pure DPS perspective, this trinket nearly the equivalent of 4.6 talent points in the warrior tree (Commanding Presence) and also adds 30 stamina. If you can find a comparable trinket anywhere in the game, please let me know.
| If you don't like the design or style of the trinket, fine, but claiming it is not 'a real upgrade' or not 'good' or 'the best' is completely misinformed and inaccurate. |
But I'm only talking about this trinket. I'm talking about this, because I don't like this trinket and I don't want to wear it until WoW comes to an end - I don't think any trinket only concerning personal DPS can replace this, even lvl 80 epic trinket's probably won't. So you want to wear it "forever"? This trinket just provokes this thoughts.
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Originally Posted by Kaan
not the personal ap, so not counting the warrior - the warrior himself would make more DPS with another trinket
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Alone, it's very comparable to your other options. The breaking point, obviously, is the 96ap to 4 other people.
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Originally Posted by Kaan
But I'm only talking about this trinket. I'm talking about this, because I don't like this trinket and I don't want to wear it until WoW comes to an end - I don't think any trinket only concerning personal DPS can replace this, even lvl 80 epic trinket's probably won't. So you want to wear it "forever"? This trinket just provokes this thoughts.
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Okay, thank you all for your replies. From now on I will treat Solarian Sapphire with more respect and make more use of it.
I have some thoughts for a new discussion:
I did some tests with DPS-Spreadsheet 0.9.6 and found out, that T6 isn't that much inferior to setups with random epics:
This are the numbers:
1578 DPS with Full T6
1584,7 DPS with 4/5 T6 and Gloves of Silent Justice
1590 DPS with 4/5 T6 and Leggings of Divine Retribution
1589,5 DPS with 2/5 T6 and Gloves of Silent Justice, Helm of the Illidari Shatterer and Leggings of Divine Retribution
Whats your opinion/experience about this? 4/5 T6 with 4PC Bonus, or 2/5 with more random epics, or even Full T6? Thanks in advance.
I have some thoughts for a new discussion:
I did some tests with DPS-Spreadsheet 0.9.6 and found out, that T6 isn't that much inferior to setups with random epics:
This are the numbers:
1578 DPS with Full T6
1584,7 DPS with 4/5 T6 and Gloves of Silent Justice
1590 DPS with 4/5 T6 and Leggings of Divine Retribution
1589,5 DPS with 2/5 T6 and Gloves of Silent Justice, Helm of the Illidari Shatterer and Leggings of Divine Retribution
Whats your opinion/experience about this? 4/5 T6 with 4PC Bonus, or 2/5 with more random epics, or even Full T6? Thanks in advance.
Edited onPatch 2.3.0
If you are not trying to boost your own dps for the purpose of killing the boss faster and contributing to the succes of your raids by doing so, then I think the only remaining motivation would be trying to impress your guildmates with it and earn (more of) their respect or admiration. But in that case I'd have to ask myself how badly I would be kidding myself when at the same time most of my guild would probably be disappointed to learn I am gimping our raid dps by doing so.
Edit:
Even though I did not expect it, I came to the same conclusion before. The thing is though that for a lot of DPS warriors, the off-tier epics will be a lot easier to acquire simply because there is no competition for them (worst case, 1 other dps warrior, but how many guilds are really running with two?) and the Tier items are best in slot for the other classes you share it with. 4 pieces of T6 and Silent Justice gloves came out just ahead of other combination for me a while ago, but not enough to actually prioritize it for me and hold out on any off-tier items dropping that could buff my dps instantly. So what I decided to do is just get all the off-tier that drops for me and by the time everyone has their Tier items, I start collecting the onslaught pieces I need.
Edit:
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Originally Posted by Kaan
I did some tests with DPS-Spreadsheet 0.9.6 and found out, that T6 isn't that much inferior to setups with random epics:
<stuff> Whats your opinion/experience about this? 4/5 T6 with 4PC Bonus, or 2/5 with more random epics, or even Full T6? Thanks in advance. |
Last edited by Dynalisia : 12/14/07 at 11:26 AM.
Ideally one would pick up as much DPS plate as possible. Leave the T6 for the shaman/hunters who consider many of them best-in-slot, and pick up your own T6 for tanking/dps based on demand and upgrade value.
Hey guys, I'm new to the EJ forums and looking for some advice. I've been a dual wield fury warrior for about 5 months now, and our guild just broke into BT/Hyjal. I've always been the kind of player that plans out exactly what pieces of gear he wants to get in an instance and just waits for them to drop. However with the variety of itemization in BT and Hyjal, mainly the addition of armor penetration and haste, I'm unsure as to what is going to be the largest boost to my dps. I do solid dps, though not incredible, I put out 1500-1600 dps on gorefiend typically. Anyway I was wondering if some of you more experienced warriors could give me your opinion on what i should be looking to upgrade as far as my gear. Thanks for any and all help!
Here's my armory link: The World of Warcraft Armory
Here's my armory link: The World of Warcraft Armory
So my DPS options are Dragonstrike, Swiftsteel bludgeon, and syphon of the nath
i'm kinda confused on what i should MH and what i should OH - i'm currently doing Syphon in MH and swiftsteel bludgeon in my OH - but i've been reading through all these posts and i find some people bank them, some people prefer them... confused
The World of Warcraft Armory
i'm kinda confused on what i should MH and what i should OH - i'm currently doing Syphon in MH and swiftsteel bludgeon in my OH - but i've been reading through all these posts and i find some people bank them, some people prefer them... confused
The World of Warcraft Armory
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Originally Posted by Moulman
Hey guys, I'm new to the EJ forums and looking for some advice. I've been a dual wield fury warrior for about 5 months now, and our guild just broke into BT/Hyjal. I've always been the kind of player that plans out exactly what pieces of gear he wants to get in an instance and just waits for them to drop. However with the variety of itemization in BT and Hyjal, mainly the addition of armor penetration and haste, I'm unsure as to what is going to be the largest boost to my dps. I do solid dps, though not incredible, I put out 1500-1600 dps on gorefiend typically. Anyway I was wondering if some of you more experienced warriors could give me your opinion on what i should be looking to upgrade as far as my gear. Thanks for any and all help!
Here's my armory link: The World of Warcraft Armory |
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Originally Posted by Naolin
So my DPS options are Dragonstrike, Swiftsteel bludgeon, and syphon of the nath
i'm kinda confused on what i should MH and what i should OH - i'm currently doing Syphon in MH and swiftsteel bludgeon in my OH - but i've been reading through all these posts and i find some people bank them, some people prefer them... confused The World of Warcraft Armory |
i dunno why - but i cant get it to work on my comp ><
Please correct my math on this if im wrong.
Solarian's Sapphire = 70 Attack power
70 ap x commanding presence's 25 percent = 87.5ap
87.5ap x unleashed rage's 10 percent = 96.25ap
96.25 ap x 5 melee in the group = 481.25 total ap from everyone in the group. I hope i worded that right. Thats 481 total ap that group didnt have before the trinket.
Is that math correct? If so i can definately see the huge raid benefit you get from it coupled with blood frenzy debuff.
I know i didnt include imp beserker. Im ms pve
If all this math is correct then i have one question. If you total up all 5 of the melee's ap without that 481 added to the total and then add it to it. How much would that honestly help dps wise? I guess what im trying to ask. IS there anyway to tell how much dps is being gained by the 481ap total from all 5 people.
Solarian's Sapphire = 70 Attack power
70 ap x commanding presence's 25 percent = 87.5ap
87.5ap x unleashed rage's 10 percent = 96.25ap
96.25 ap x 5 melee in the group = 481.25 total ap from everyone in the group. I hope i worded that right. Thats 481 total ap that group didnt have before the trinket.
Is that math correct? If so i can definately see the huge raid benefit you get from it coupled with blood frenzy debuff.
I know i didnt include imp beserker. Im ms pve
If all this math is correct then i have one question. If you total up all 5 of the melee's ap without that 481 added to the total and then add it to it. How much would that honestly help dps wise? I guess what im trying to ask. IS there anyway to tell how much dps is being gained by the 481ap total from all 5 people.
Your answer is easy. Simple comparison:
How obvious is your dps difference between unbuffed, and self buffed (imp bshout)?
Now consider a 'free' or 'extra' bshout collectively, split between 5 people. I'd think some things are obvious to the point that no math is needed.
How obvious is your dps difference between unbuffed, and self buffed (imp bshout)?
Now consider a 'free' or 'extra' bshout collectively, split between 5 people. I'd think some things are obvious to the point that no math is needed.
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Originally Posted by Mjollnir
Your answer is easy. Simple comparison:
How obvious is your dps difference between unbuffed, and self buffed (imp bshout)? Now consider a 'free' or 'extra' bshout collectively, split between 5 people. I'd think some things are obvious to the point that no math is needed. |
Edited onPatch 2.3.0
I honestly don't think 400 extra ap (with unleashed rage and 5/5 commanding presence) from 4 melees (not counting yourself) is deciding anything in any raid. How much percent of damage would this be for the raid - like nearly nothing? Though perhaps the 300 extra life can save your life, so you can make some extra decent dps to the end of the bossfight that could be important.
Sorry for the bad joke, but I honestly don't think, that this trinket is anywhere "good" or nearly "the best". With 30 Stamina on it, it has the opposite stat any warrior needs on a class trinket. And it is a affront to every warrior who doesn't wants to be pushed in the "you-are-only-a-supporter"-role. It's a trinket, many people force them selves to wear, because it's "the best" in bare numbers.
Just wear what you like to wear, and don't force yourself to wear this bad-designed "class trinket". Saying this, I will stay with DST/TT until I get a real upgrade.
Edit: typo
Sorry for the bad joke, but I honestly don't think, that this trinket is anywhere "good" or nearly "the best". With 30 Stamina on it, it has the opposite stat any warrior needs on a class trinket. And it is a affront to every warrior who doesn't wants to be pushed in the "you-are-only-a-supporter"-role. It's a trinket, many people force them selves to wear, because it's "the best" in bare numbers.
Just wear what you like to wear, and don't force yourself to wear this bad-designed "class trinket". Saying this, I will stay with DST/TT until I get a real upgrade.
Edit: typo
Last edited by Kaan : 12/13/07 at 9:39 PM.
+480 total AP for your party ~ +480 AP for you (within 5-10%) and +480 AP for you > any other trinket (other than pre-nerf DST)
The extra AP for the party can 'decide a raid' just as much as a DST for yourself can decide a raid. Have you never wiped at 1%?
If we had a warrior with the trinket who refused to wear it I would probably kick them out of the guild. The people in this forum are generally looking to progress their guilds and not flex their personal WWS logs.
The extra AP for the party can 'decide a raid' just as much as a DST for yourself can decide a raid. Have you never wiped at 1%?
If we had a warrior with the trinket who refused to wear it I would probably kick them out of the guild. The people in this forum are generally looking to progress their guilds and not flex their personal WWS logs.
If people keep thinking personal dps is more important then raid dps, well then they don't belong in a real raiding guild.
Also the +sta on the trinket IS usefull as there are alot of fights in mh/bt where it really helps.
Also the +sta on the trinket IS usefull as there are alot of fights in mh/bt where it really helps.
It doesn't matter how much the overall DPS raid increase is from using that trinket. The fact of the matter is that raid DPS >IS< higher with the Solarian trinket and therefore is the best option. By your argument enhancement shamans should also stop using WF totem and use agility because it's better DPS for him? Overall raid DPS is your objective, not personal DPS - no matter how small the difference is.
I don't say that this is the case with any current triket, but a time will come, maybe as soon as patch 2.4, when the additional raid DPS from the sapphire will be less, than the personal DPS from another trinket. Of course the AP bonus also scales with the gear of your melee group, but a well rounded item similar to the madness might eventually beat it.
That's the sad thing about the sapphire. It provides a nice grp DPS boost but it takes away one of your gearslots for a looong time... In a raid scenario raid DPS is alway about maximizing results. But(!) why do warriors get the grp-buff trinket? I mean rogues alway get pure personal DPS class trinkets. Why not give them something useful that increases grp/raid DPS?
It seems warriors are put into a buff/debuff role and rogues only provide dmg (3-click-rotation... woheee). They provide no other useful incentive...
The think is, where are warriors heading?
I hope with the -10% threat we can sustain our DPS output. Rouges will be in 1st spot by default of course (blizz said that) but maybe we can compete for #2-3 spot against warlocks and mages.
Btw anybody seen a rogue without a warrior ap-shout ? I noticed on early vashj kill, how their dps went down down down when no totems/LoP/BS were uppon them, because they were running around in phase2 (before we optimized positioning).
As some also mentioned BT/Hyal bosses have less armor, so we will see decreasing DPS numbers in Sunwell, I guess. Unless -armor stacks even more on T7.
It seems warriors are put into a buff/debuff role and rogues only provide dmg (3-click-rotation... woheee). They provide no other useful incentive...
The think is, where are warriors heading?
I hope with the -10% threat we can sustain our DPS output. Rouges will be in 1st spot by default of course (blizz said that) but maybe we can compete for #2-3 spot against warlocks and mages.
Btw anybody seen a rogue without a warrior ap-shout
? I noticed on early vashj kill, how their dps went down down down when no totems/LoP/BS were uppon them, because they were running around in phase2 (before we optimized positioning).As some also mentioned BT/Hyal bosses have less armor, so we will see decreasing DPS numbers in Sunwell, I guess. Unless -armor stacks even more on T7.
As soon as another trinket can provide the raid DPS increase that the sapphire does then yeah, of course one should want to change it. But I don't see that coming soon at all... Like someone said earlier, your battle shout is responsible for a lot of the rogue's damage: perhaps around 50DPS per group member.
It is interesting that rogues have never buffed the group in any way (except perhaps for hemo, but that's hardly seen due to it's impracticality), but then again, the whole melee group is based around buffing the rogues. But look at it from this point of view:
The typical setup of warrior, shaman, druid, 2x rogues usually ends up in the following on the DPS meters (with DPS stats from a random Anetheron kill):
Rogue #1 - 1770DPS
Rogue #2 - 1630DPS
Warrior - 1470DPS
Druid - 1450DPS
Shaman - 1430DPS
We're usually the top 5, depending on the encounter. If we can assume that the battle shout adds at least 50DPS per group member AND Blood Frenzy debuff adds around 200-250 DPS (I have actually done napkin math on this but I can't find it and can't be bothered to do it again just now) spread throughout the raid then the warrior contributed to the raid with around 1870-1920 DPS whereas the rogues only did what shows on the meters. I'm not too fussed about our DPS and raid position once I look at it from this point of view, tbh.
It is interesting that rogues have never buffed the group in any way (except perhaps for hemo, but that's hardly seen due to it's impracticality), but then again, the whole melee group is based around buffing the rogues. But look at it from this point of view:
The typical setup of warrior, shaman, druid, 2x rogues usually ends up in the following on the DPS meters (with DPS stats from a random Anetheron kill):
Rogue #1 - 1770DPS
Rogue #2 - 1630DPS
Warrior - 1470DPS
Druid - 1450DPS
Shaman - 1430DPS
We're usually the top 5, depending on the encounter. If we can assume that the battle shout adds at least 50DPS per group member AND Blood Frenzy debuff adds around 200-250 DPS (I have actually done napkin math on this but I can't find it and can't be bothered to do it again just now) spread throughout the raid then the warrior contributed to the raid with around 1870-1920 DPS whereas the rogues only did what shows on the meters. I'm not too fussed about our DPS and raid position once I look at it from this point of view, tbh.
You cant stack warriors/druid/shaman buffs but you can stack rogues.
Diffenrent classes scales with ap something like...
Rough numbers but these are so gear depency that cant make up betters.
1dps = ? ap
Warrior = 2.5-3
Rogue = 3
eShaman = 4
Druid = 5
So 70ap per group menber give:
warrior 23-28dps + 2* rogue 47dps + shaman 17.5dps + druid 14dps
so 102-107dps to group with one trinket to raid.
I think enhance shaman contributed that raid over 2500dps. (wf+ur+str totem, maybe even agi totem twist + fire totems hidden from wws parser)
Diffenrent classes scales with ap something like...
Rough numbers but these are so gear depency that cant make up betters.
1dps = ? ap
Warrior = 2.5-3
Rogue = 3
eShaman = 4
Druid = 5
So 70ap per group menber give:
warrior 23-28dps + 2* rogue 47dps + shaman 17.5dps + druid 14dps
so 102-107dps to group with one trinket to raid.
I think enhance shaman contributed that raid over 2500dps. (wf+ur+str totem, maybe even agi totem twist + fire totems hidden from wws parser)
It's damn crazy how much raid DPS contribution an enhancement shaman has. Not even mentioning the other members of the party, I still flip out at how much my DPS suffers when our enhance shaman is away or unable to raid; it goes down about 400-500 DPS.
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Originally Posted by Natural
If we had a warrior with the trinket who refused to wear it I would probably kick them out of the guild. The people in this forum are generally looking to progress their guilds and not flex their personal WWS logs.
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| The extra AP for the party can 'decide a raid' just as much as a DST for yourself can decide a raid. Have you never wiped at 1%? |
But anyway I'am not talking about egoism here. I'm simply talking about forcing to wear yourself a trinket, that IS bad designed, having alternatives like DST, TT or MOTB. You would kick a player out of your guild, when he doesn't LIKE to wear this, I won't, because this trinket isn't deciding in most of the time, or even the whole time. WoW isn't just about "best numbers" it's also about fun - since this is true, your arguments aren't ultimate. Just my opinion.
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Originally Posted by Kaan
It can, but probably it never will be.
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Is it good design that this one trinket is so good it will never be replaced in the whole of TBC? No, probably not. They made it a bit too good (like the pre-nerf DST, which they realised and changed). Whether they'll nerf the sapphire I don't know, but whilst we have it, if we want to do our best, we should use it.
If you would rather wear a 'cooler' trinket because you like it, that's fine. I have (on occasion) worn items that were worse than others I had, simply because 'they looked cooler'. I got the Arena S2 shoulders months ago, because I liked how good they are. I could probably have gotten a couple of small upgrades since then (nothing major), but I'd rather keep these because they look good. However, I'm not going to go to a theorycraft forum, which discusses how best to play a DPS warrior, and claim that they are better than the alternatives:
| Sorry for the bad joke, but I honestly don't think, that this trinket is anywhere "good" or nearly "the best". |
| Just wear what you like to wear, and don't force yourself to wear this bad-designed "class trinket". Saying this, I will stay with DST/TT until I get a real upgrade. |
If you don't like the design or style of the trinket, fine, but claiming it is not 'a real upgrade' or not 'good' or 'the best' is completely misinformed and inaccurate.
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Originally Posted by Kaan
I'm simply talking about forcing to wear yourself a trinket, that IS bad designed, having alternatives like DST, TT or MOTB.
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From a pure DPS perspective, this trinket nearly the equivalent of 4.6 talent points in the warrior tree (Commanding Presence) and also adds 30 stamina. If you can find a comparable trinket anywhere in the game, please let me know.
| If you don't like the design or style of the trinket, fine, but claiming it is not 'a real upgrade' or not 'good' or 'the best' is completely misinformed and inaccurate. |
But I'm only talking about this trinket. I'm talking about this, because I don't like this trinket and I don't want to wear it until WoW comes to an end - I don't think any trinket only concerning personal DPS can replace this, even lvl 80 epic trinket's probably won't. So you want to wear it "forever"? This trinket just provokes this thoughts.
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Originally Posted by Kaan
not the personal ap, so not counting the warrior - the warrior himself would make more DPS with another trinket
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Alone, it's very comparable to your other options. The breaking point, obviously, is the 96ap to 4 other people.
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Originally Posted by Kaan
But I'm only talking about this trinket. I'm talking about this, because I don't like this trinket and I don't want to wear it until WoW comes to an end - I don't think any trinket only concerning personal DPS can replace this, even lvl 80 epic trinket's probably won't. So you want to wear it "forever"? This trinket just provokes this thoughts.
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Okay, thank you all for your replies. From now on I will treat Solarian Sapphire with more respect and make more use of it.
I have some thoughts for a new discussion:
I did some tests with DPS-Spreadsheet 0.9.6 and found out, that T6 isn't that much inferior to setups with random epics:
This are the numbers:
1578 DPS with Full T6
1584,7 DPS with 4/5 T6 and Gloves of Silent Justice
1590 DPS with 4/5 T6 and Leggings of Divine Retribution
1589,5 DPS with 2/5 T6 and Gloves of Silent Justice, Helm of the Illidari Shatterer and Leggings of Divine Retribution
Whats your opinion/experience about this? 4/5 T6 with 4PC Bonus, or 2/5 with more random epics, or even Full T6? Thanks in advance.
I have some thoughts for a new discussion:
I did some tests with DPS-Spreadsheet 0.9.6 and found out, that T6 isn't that much inferior to setups with random epics:
This are the numbers:
1578 DPS with Full T6
1584,7 DPS with 4/5 T6 and Gloves of Silent Justice
1590 DPS with 4/5 T6 and Leggings of Divine Retribution
1589,5 DPS with 2/5 T6 and Gloves of Silent Justice, Helm of the Illidari Shatterer and Leggings of Divine Retribution
Whats your opinion/experience about this? 4/5 T6 with 4PC Bonus, or 2/5 with more random epics, or even Full T6? Thanks in advance.
Edited onPatch 2.3.0
If you are not trying to boost your own dps for the purpose of killing the boss faster and contributing to the succes of your raids by doing so, then I think the only remaining motivation would be trying to impress your guildmates with it and earn (more of) their respect or admiration. But in that case I'd have to ask myself how badly I would be kidding myself when at the same time most of my guild would probably be disappointed to learn I am gimping our raid dps by doing so.
Edit:
Even though I did not expect it, I came to the same conclusion before. The thing is though that for a lot of DPS warriors, the off-tier epics will be a lot easier to acquire simply because there is no competition for them (worst case, 1 other dps warrior, but how many guilds are really running with two?) and the Tier items are best in slot for the other classes you share it with. 4 pieces of T6 and Silent Justice gloves came out just ahead of other combination for me a while ago, but not enough to actually prioritize it for me and hold out on any off-tier items dropping that could buff my dps instantly. So what I decided to do is just get all the off-tier that drops for me and by the time everyone has their Tier items, I start collecting the onslaught pieces I need.
Edit:
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Originally Posted by Kaan
I did some tests with DPS-Spreadsheet 0.9.6 and found out, that T6 isn't that much inferior to setups with random epics:
<stuff> Whats your opinion/experience about this? 4/5 T6 with 4PC Bonus, or 2/5 with more random epics, or even Full T6? Thanks in advance. |
Last edited by Dynalisia : 12/14/07 at 11:26 AM.
Ideally one would pick up as much DPS plate as possible. Leave the T6 for the shaman/hunters who consider many of them best-in-slot, and pick up your own T6 for tanking/dps based on demand and upgrade value.
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Originally Posted by Thorquiz
I for myself decided: now that we killed Illidan (perhaps not yet the case for you or other warriors, dunno), there's basically no more need to provide this support to raid-dps (because we actually beat all content) and I can go for a selfish egofucker-dps-trinket. Given that after Sunwell is released it'll be the same situation as before killing Illidan, I'll maybe go back to SS ... because it's just so damned good.
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The difficulty lies in justifying your rights to pick up these other DPS trinkets. Is it logical for me to pick up [Madness of the Betrayer] over a rogue or hunter who would always use it? It really depends on how much progression you think there is left in the game.
I would say it still comes down to the time your guild is progressing. During these times most guilds incorporate a number of rules to help with new fights, such as not disenchanting items if they are upgrades, regardless of weather that person would prefer something else.
Once progression is over, loot should be free choice. At the end of the day its a game and contrary to what some people might say, people play this game to better their character and have fun doing it.
Once progression is over, loot should be free choice. At the end of the day its a game and contrary to what some people might say, people play this game to better their character and have fun doing it.
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Originally Posted by Dynalisia
(worst case, 1 other dps warrior, but how many guilds are really running with two?)
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The way I look at it, I'll work out my 'perfect set' of gear, and then work towards that based on the old mantra of what drops first.
Hey there EJ, I'm looking for a little advice about my warrior, Trollblade. This character is an alt, but an alt I sometimes use on lower raids such as Gruul and Kara (which the WWS is for).
Obligatory WWS Parse: Wow Web Stats
There's a couple places I can instantly improve a little damage via spec (say dropping Improved Execute for Weapon Mastery and finally getting Mongoose for my Main Hand), but byeond that I'm at a loss on why my DPS is so low. I was only doing about 600 DPS on Gruul even though I had Windfury Totem.
Stats (battle stance):
1622 Attack Power (remember that I have Darkmoon Card though)
28.58% Crit
199 Hit Rating
Armory Link: The World of Warcraft Armory
What am I doing wrong DPS-wise?
As I understand it, the key to DPS is to use these powers in this order:
1) If the target is below 20% HP, use Execute.
2) If Bloodthirst is up, use it.
3) If bloodthirst is not up, use WW.
4) If BT and WW are not up, and you have more than 50 Rage, use Heroic Strike.
That's been my goal when DPS'ing, and I've been able to get above 3500 Attack Power with my gear and with Windfury is pretty fantastic, but I can't believe that I am doing such low DPS. Pointers?
Obligatory WWS Parse: Wow Web Stats
There's a couple places I can instantly improve a little damage via spec (say dropping Improved Execute for Weapon Mastery and finally getting Mongoose for my Main Hand), but byeond that I'm at a loss on why my DPS is so low. I was only doing about 600 DPS on Gruul even though I had Windfury Totem.
Stats (battle stance):
1622 Attack Power (remember that I have Darkmoon Card though)
28.58% Crit
199 Hit Rating
Armory Link: The World of Warcraft Armory
What am I doing wrong DPS-wise?
As I understand it, the key to DPS is to use these powers in this order:
1) If the target is below 20% HP, use Execute.
2) If Bloodthirst is up, use it.
3) If bloodthirst is not up, use WW.
4) If BT and WW are not up, and you have more than 50 Rage, use Heroic Strike.
That's been my goal when DPS'ing, and I've been able to get above 3500 Attack Power with my gear and with Windfury is pretty fantastic, but I can't believe that I am doing such low DPS. Pointers?
Edited onPatch 2.3.0
Your DPS time seems low compared to how long that fight took, even for Gruul. Don't die.
Also, you have used 6 Wicked Noble Topaz's in your gear, while it would be more beneficial for you to use Inscribed Noble Topaz's because of Blessing of Kings (I see you have two paladins in your raid).
Also, you have used 6 Wicked Noble Topaz's in your gear, while it would be more beneficial for you to use Inscribed Noble Topaz's because of Blessing of Kings (I see you have two paladins in your raid).
Last edited by Dynalisia : 12/14/07 at 2:32 PM.
Try 1 I was shatter killed about 60% into the fight.
Try 2 I was aggro killed about 30 seconds into the fight.
[edit] According to my view, it shows 100% and 101% DPS time respectively. Maybe you were referring to something else?
Try 2 I was aggro killed about 30 seconds into the fight.
[edit] According to my view, it shows 100% and 101% DPS time respectively. Maybe you were referring to something else?
From my experience if you want to do good dps on Gruul, stay in the cave'ins and yell for some heals. Granted not the most efficient but going from your stats I'd say rage was your problem.
Also dieing doesn't help. Word.
Being less specific, try and grab some decent pve equivalent items for all the arena gear your wearing. A fair amount of stats is lost on stam and resilience. Oh and yes, definately loose the ap gems.
Also dieing doesn't help. Word.
Being less specific, try and grab some decent pve equivalent items for all the arena gear your wearing. A fair amount of stats is lost on stam and resilience. Oh and yes, definately loose the ap gems.
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Originally Posted by Bevz
From my experience if you want to do good dps on Gruul, stay in the cave'ins and yell for some heals. Granted not the most efficient but going from your stats I'd say rage was your problem.
Also dieing doesn't help. Word. Being less specific, try and grab some decent pve equivalent items for all the arena gear your wearing. A fair amount of stats is lost on stam and resilience. Oh and yes, definately loose the ap gems. |
I didnt really notice being rage starved though - I was able to Bloodthirst and WW every time they were up as I recall, especially with Windfury and Cave Ins giving me rage.
Filtered WWS Report: Wow Web Stats
BT at +9 Sec, +17, +24, so about on average 9, 8, 7 seconds respectively. Obviously more than 6 seconds between each, but I think GCD was nuking me each time.
WW happened at +11, +21, so about 10 between the first two.
Would WWS report lower DPS from time spent moving back into position from Ground Stomp?
Looks like I'm getting a lot of glancing.
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Originally Posted by Natural
The difficulty lies in justifying your rights to pick up these other DPS trinkets. Is it logical for me to pick up [Madness of the Betrayer] over a rogue or hunter who would always use it? It really depends on how much progression you think there is left in the game.
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Edited onPatch 2.3.0
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Originally Posted by Tejs
Try 1 I was shatter killed about 60% into the fight.
Try 2 I was aggro killed about 30 seconds into the fight. [edit] According to my view, it shows 100% and 101% DPS time respectively. Maybe you were referring to something else? |
Edit:
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Originally Posted by Thorquiz
what I've read in the forums is, that many players try something new after they killed Illidan, so why shouldn't we?
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Last edited by Dynalisia : 12/14/07 at 3:52 PM.
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Originally Posted by Tejs
Indeed, regemming is an issue I found. I actually gemmed my stuff before reading some FAQs here on these boards and have been too lazy to spend the money just for BoK benefits. It *is* on my to-do list though.
I didnt really notice being rage starved though - I was able to Bloodthirst and WW every time they were up as I recall, especially with Windfury and Cave Ins giving me rage. Filtered WWS Report: Wow Web Stats BT at +9 Sec, +17, +24, so about on average 9, 8, 7 seconds respectively. Obviously more than 6 seconds between each, but I think GCD was nuking me each time. WW happened at +11, +21, so about 10 between the first two. Would WWS report lower DPS from time spent moving back into position from Ground Stomp? Looks like I'm getting a lot of glancing. |
I think you were onto something though when you mentioned when you used your bloodthirsts and whirlwinds.
At 4:10:24 you WW, at 4:10:27 you Bloodthirst, looks like there is a ground slam and shatter around 4:10:39, then you get back on top of Gruul at 4:10:41. Then your next Bloodthirst is over 4 seconds later at 4:10:45, then WW at 4:10:47. All there is between the shatter and that Bloodthirst is white damage, seems to me like you should have been able to WW or Bloodthirst earlier than that? It also seems like you could have slid in another WW at 4:10:33 before you ran out for the ground slam?
I know its easier said than done, but I've these are the kinda things I wanna have figured out by the time I hit 70, gotta show my rogue friends who is boss :P
Our guild is getting ready to move into MH/BT and I'm at a crossroads.
I'm at the point where I'm not sure which stats I'm lacking and which I have may have too much. I know a lot of the MH/BT gear focuses on armor pen, etc. and I could use some advice on this. Should I be stacking armor pen, haste, crit, and at expense to what? I haven't seen any stats on it yet so if there is a good guide or link it would be helpful.
Here's my armory, and help is greatly appreciated!
The World of Warcraft Armory
I'm at the point where I'm not sure which stats I'm lacking and which I have may have too much. I know a lot of the MH/BT gear focuses on armor pen, etc. and I could use some advice on this. Should I be stacking armor pen, haste, crit, and at expense to what? I haven't seen any stats on it yet so if there is a good guide or link it would be helpful.
Here's my armory, and help is greatly appreciated!
The World of Warcraft Armory
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Originally Posted by Mooregame
Our guild is getting ready to move into MH/BT and I'm at a crossroads.
I'm at the point where I'm not sure which stats I'm lacking and which I have may have too much. I know a lot of the MH/BT gear focuses on armor pen, etc. and I could use some advice on this. Should I be stacking armor pen, haste, crit, and at expense to what? I haven't seen any stats on it yet so if there is a good guide or link it would be helpful. Here's my armory, and help is greatly appreciated! The World of Warcraft Armory |
And imp tc vs iron will since you will, in all likelihood, will be doing off-tanking from time to time.
And if no other warrior has it, Piercing Howl and 2/5 Imp Demo shout as are handy to have and easy for a Fury warrior to keep up.
My guild currently has 4/5 Hyjal and the first 2-3 bosses of BT down, and i've switched from my resto shaman to my DW fury warrior for raiding. My armory is here. I recently changed my talent spec but haven't had a chance to try it out in raids yet. I also have a [Merciless Gladiator's Left Ripper] with a potency enchant on, but I picked the dagger up from a ZA run to test it out. I'd like to get a slower offhand if possible.
I'm not really sure of what path i should take next in regards to gear choices or what stat to improve on. I know that a lot of gear needs an upgrade. I'd appreciate any input you guys would have.
I'm not really sure of what path i should take next in regards to gear choices or what stat to improve on. I know that a lot of gear needs an upgrade. I'd appreciate any input you guys would have.
Edited onPatch 2.3.0
Since the haste nerf, there is generally just one 'best' off-tier item for each slot in MH/BT and that is the one that simply doesn't have haste on it. Get them whenever they drop for you, because they will all be better than what you have and if you happen to run into any stat-deficiencies (most likely +hit) then simply apply a temporary stopgap by regemming or eating +hit food until you get the key +hit pieces. Depending on your loot system, you can also go for T6 pieces, but as mentioned before, it is preferable to most people to just get the lesser-contented off-tier loot that is almost as good or better until you get the set bonuses of T6 working for you. It will also help out the classes you share a token with and your warrior tanks. For weapons what you have is pretty solid already, maybe a blade of infamy for your OH would be a small upgrade, check the spreadsheet I'd say.
In the mean time, remove those +hit gems from your gear and replace them with +crit or crit/str. And buying a wad of arcane tomes from the AH to get your Aldor rep to exalted for a decent shoulder enchant should help aswell.
Also, is it me or does not a single warrior in your guild have points in improved demo? If you want to make yourself really useful, get 5/5 and make one of your locks start putting CoR on bosses.
In the mean time, remove those +hit gems from your gear and replace them with +crit or crit/str. And buying a wad of arcane tomes from the AH to get your Aldor rep to exalted for a decent shoulder enchant should help aswell.
Also, is it me or does not a single warrior in your guild have points in improved demo? If you want to make yourself really useful, get 5/5 and make one of your locks start putting CoR on bosses.
Last edited by Dynalisia : 12/16/07 at 12:25 PM.
Thanks for the input Dyn.
I think our offtank is going to respec into imp. demo, as we do use recklessness quite a bit. If it doesn't work out I wouldn't mind getting it in place of unbridled wrath I suppose. Regarding losing the hit gems, is there a certain hit rating I should be aiming for? I would assume the 15% with precision is enough.
Thanks again for the help.
(Oh I did get the spreadsheet in the [Warrior] DPS Spreadsheet 2.3 and beyond thread, but OpenOffice decided to throw a fit and refuse to open it. I'll take another look later if I can)
I think our offtank is going to respec into imp. demo, as we do use recklessness quite a bit. If it doesn't work out I wouldn't mind getting it in place of unbridled wrath I suppose. Regarding losing the hit gems, is there a certain hit rating I should be aiming for? I would assume the 15% with precision is enough.
Thanks again for the help.
(Oh I did get the spreadsheet in the [Warrior] DPS Spreadsheet 2.3 and beyond thread, but OpenOffice decided to throw a fit and refuse to open it. I'll take another look later if I can)
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Originally Posted by Infernox
Thanks for the input Dyn.
I think our offtank is going to respec into imp. demo, as we do use recklessness quite a bit. If it doesn't work out I wouldn't mind getting it in place of unbridled wrath I suppose. Regarding losing the hit gems, is there a certain hit rating I should be aiming for? I would assume the 15% with precision is enough. Thanks again for the help. (Oh I did get the spreadsheet in the [Warrior] DPS Spreadsheet 2.3 and beyond thread, but OpenOffice decided to throw a fit and refuse to open it. I'll take another look later if I can) |
As for hit: 15% hitrating is probably way too much. If you want to get to the core of the theorycraft you would have to read a few dozen pages back in this thread, but it has to do with the fact that after you reach 9% total +hit, any more of it would only affect your white hits and not your special attacks anymore. Meaning that it loses close to half of its benefit to you. Extra hitrating also benefits the predictability of your rage generation and any proc effects, but it doesn't weigh up to the damage +crit adds to all melee attacks made.
The current trend is that you just make sure you have your olde 9% +hit so you don't miss any specials (including precision) and once you do stop gemming any +hit at all. As soon as you can afford it due to receiving extra itemized +hit, replace any +hit gems you did have to get to 9% with crit or str/crit ones. If you happen to get +hit because it's itemized into a superior item, that's fine though.
Right now I actually find myself wondering if there would ever be a situation where you would consider speccing out of precision. I know mages do it with their hitrating talent.
I've definatly specced out of precision. Random pieces give enough +hit to make cap. And there are too many new goodies to in the fury tree to pass up. If you find that you have over 9% hit, i definatly suggest dropping some of the points in precision.
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Originally Posted by Lambach
I've definatly specced out of precision. Random pieces give enough +hit to make cap. And there are too many new goodies to in the fury tree to pass up. If you find that you have over 9% hit, i definatly suggest dropping some of the points in precision.
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Exactly. Well you can still take a point or 2 in precision if you feel its not worth it. But weapon mastery definatly is. I really enjoy imp execute, and I prefer imp ww to fix my rotation over teh 1% hit. Id say you could probably drop 1-2 of the points in imp ww for more in precision.
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Originally Posted by Lambach
Exactly. Well you can still take a point or 2 in precision if you feel its not worth it. But weapon mastery definatly is. I really enjoy imp execute, and I prefer imp ww to fix my rotation over teh 1% hit. Id say you could probably drop 1-2 of the points in imp ww for more in precision.
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Don't forget though, with the defiance talent change i'll probably be going for something like Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft just to see how it performs over impale. The build just allows enough points to get all the worthwhile talents in both trees.
How did i double post 6 hours later? sorry please delete
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Originally Posted by Bevz
Precision is still worth having even at decent hit rating levels but agreed it is something I'd drop first did I want to try something else.
Don't forget though, with the defiance talent change i'll probably be going for something like Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft just to see how it performs over impale. The build just allows enough points to get all the worthwhile talents in both trees. |
I already changed to a 47/14 fury/prot build actually. Feels nice to be able to take all those talents in fury tree. Even though the defiance change is not in yet I still managed to keep my dps at roughly the same level as before. It's of course hard to tell just comparing 2 different raids, but I didn't feel gimped at all. Estimates from the spreadsheet shows a loss of 3-5% going from 17/44/0 to 0/47/14, seems reasonable to me. The great thing about the build is the added survivability. Having Last Stand and +10% armor enabled me to tank Nalorakk for the last 3% yesterday in fury gear+shield, it saved a certain wipe for us. Must say that I really like the build. Will be even more fun when Defiance starts to work in zerk stance.
To Infernox, make a post in the spreadsheet thread about your OpenOffice problems, I could probably help you make it work (or I could upload my OO version of it). The reason why it dies when you try to start it is likely the scripts, they need to be disabled if you want it to work.
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Originally Posted by Bevz
Precision is still worth having even at decent hit rating levels but agreed it is something I'd drop first did I want to try something else.
Don't forget though, with the defiance talent change i'll probably be going for something like Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft just to see how it performs over impale. The build just allows enough points to get all the worthwhile talents in both trees. |
I have perform some simulation on the talent build you have posted.
I found 9% dps lost when you switch from a standard 17/44 build.
This will be still a very good DPS/off-tanking build.
In the simulation program, Imp. WW is set as 1 talent point.
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Originally Posted by phatasma
I have interest on the talent build above with of better off-tanking.
I have perform some simulation on the talent build you have posted. I found 9% dps lost when you switch from a standard 17/44 build. This will be still a very good DPS/off-tanking build. In the simulation program, Imp. WW is set as 1 talent point. |
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Originally Posted by Thorquiz
I for myself decided: now that we killed Illidan (perhaps not yet the case for you or other warriors, dunno), there's basically no more need to provide this support to raid-dps (because we actually beat all content) and I can go for a selfish egofucker-dps-trinket. Given that after Sunwell is released it'll be the same situation as before killing Illidan, I'll maybe go back to SS ... because it's just so damned good.
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The difficulty lies in justifying your rights to pick up these other DPS trinkets. Is it logical for me to pick up [Madness of the Betrayer] over a rogue or hunter who would always use it? It really depends on how much progression you think there is left in the game.
I would say it still comes down to the time your guild is progressing. During these times most guilds incorporate a number of rules to help with new fights, such as not disenchanting items if they are upgrades, regardless of weather that person would prefer something else.
Once progression is over, loot should be free choice. At the end of the day its a game and contrary to what some people might say, people play this game to better their character and have fun doing it.
Once progression is over, loot should be free choice. At the end of the day its a game and contrary to what some people might say, people play this game to better their character and have fun doing it.
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Originally Posted by Dynalisia
(worst case, 1 other dps warrior, but how many guilds are really running with two?)
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The way I look at it, I'll work out my 'perfect set' of gear, and then work towards that based on the old mantra of what drops first.
Hey there EJ, I'm looking for a little advice about my warrior, Trollblade. This character is an alt, but an alt I sometimes use on lower raids such as Gruul and Kara (which the WWS is for).
Obligatory WWS Parse: Wow Web Stats
There's a couple places I can instantly improve a little damage via spec (say dropping Improved Execute for Weapon Mastery and finally getting Mongoose for my Main Hand), but byeond that I'm at a loss on why my DPS is so low. I was only doing about 600 DPS on Gruul even though I had Windfury Totem.
Stats (battle stance):
1622 Attack Power (remember that I have Darkmoon Card though)
28.58% Crit
199 Hit Rating
Armory Link: The World of Warcraft Armory
What am I doing wrong DPS-wise?
As I understand it, the key to DPS is to use these powers in this order:
1) If the target is below 20% HP, use Execute.
2) If Bloodthirst is up, use it.
3) If bloodthirst is not up, use WW.
4) If BT and WW are not up, and you have more than 50 Rage, use Heroic Strike.
That's been my goal when DPS'ing, and I've been able to get above 3500 Attack Power with my gear and with Windfury is pretty fantastic, but I can't believe that I am doing such low DPS. Pointers?
Obligatory WWS Parse: Wow Web Stats
There's a couple places I can instantly improve a little damage via spec (say dropping Improved Execute for Weapon Mastery and finally getting Mongoose for my Main Hand), but byeond that I'm at a loss on why my DPS is so low. I was only doing about 600 DPS on Gruul even though I had Windfury Totem.
Stats (battle stance):
1622 Attack Power (remember that I have Darkmoon Card though)
28.58% Crit
199 Hit Rating
Armory Link: The World of Warcraft Armory
What am I doing wrong DPS-wise?
As I understand it, the key to DPS is to use these powers in this order:
1) If the target is below 20% HP, use Execute.
2) If Bloodthirst is up, use it.
3) If bloodthirst is not up, use WW.
4) If BT and WW are not up, and you have more than 50 Rage, use Heroic Strike.
That's been my goal when DPS'ing, and I've been able to get above 3500 Attack Power with my gear and with Windfury is pretty fantastic, but I can't believe that I am doing such low DPS. Pointers?
Edited onPatch 2.3.0
Your DPS time seems low compared to how long that fight took, even for Gruul. Don't die.
Also, you have used 6 Wicked Noble Topaz's in your gear, while it would be more beneficial for you to use Inscribed Noble Topaz's because of Blessing of Kings (I see you have two paladins in your raid).
Also, you have used 6 Wicked Noble Topaz's in your gear, while it would be more beneficial for you to use Inscribed Noble Topaz's because of Blessing of Kings (I see you have two paladins in your raid).
Last edited by Dynalisia : 12/14/07 at 2:32 PM.
Try 1 I was shatter killed about 60% into the fight.
Try 2 I was aggro killed about 30 seconds into the fight.
[edit] According to my view, it shows 100% and 101% DPS time respectively. Maybe you were referring to something else?
Try 2 I was aggro killed about 30 seconds into the fight.
[edit] According to my view, it shows 100% and 101% DPS time respectively. Maybe you were referring to something else?
From my experience if you want to do good dps on Gruul, stay in the cave'ins and yell for some heals. Granted not the most efficient but going from your stats I'd say rage was your problem.
Also dieing doesn't help. Word.
Being less specific, try and grab some decent pve equivalent items for all the arena gear your wearing. A fair amount of stats is lost on stam and resilience. Oh and yes, definately loose the ap gems.
Also dieing doesn't help. Word.
Being less specific, try and grab some decent pve equivalent items for all the arena gear your wearing. A fair amount of stats is lost on stam and resilience. Oh and yes, definately loose the ap gems.
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Originally Posted by Bevz
From my experience if you want to do good dps on Gruul, stay in the cave'ins and yell for some heals. Granted not the most efficient but going from your stats I'd say rage was your problem.
Also dieing doesn't help. Word. Being less specific, try and grab some decent pve equivalent items for all the arena gear your wearing. A fair amount of stats is lost on stam and resilience. Oh and yes, definately loose the ap gems. |
I didnt really notice being rage starved though - I was able to Bloodthirst and WW every time they were up as I recall, especially with Windfury and Cave Ins giving me rage.
Filtered WWS Report: Wow Web Stats
BT at +9 Sec, +17, +24, so about on average 9, 8, 7 seconds respectively. Obviously more than 6 seconds between each, but I think GCD was nuking me each time.
WW happened at +11, +21, so about 10 between the first two.
Would WWS report lower DPS from time spent moving back into position from Ground Stomp?
Looks like I'm getting a lot of glancing.
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Originally Posted by Natural
The difficulty lies in justifying your rights to pick up these other DPS trinkets. Is it logical for me to pick up [Madness of the Betrayer] over a rogue or hunter who would always use it? It really depends on how much progression you think there is left in the game.
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Edited onPatch 2.3.0
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Originally Posted by Tejs
Try 1 I was shatter killed about 60% into the fight.
Try 2 I was aggro killed about 30 seconds into the fight. [edit] According to my view, it shows 100% and 101% DPS time respectively. Maybe you were referring to something else? |
Edit:
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Originally Posted by Thorquiz
what I've read in the forums is, that many players try something new after they killed Illidan, so why shouldn't we?
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Last edited by Dynalisia : 12/14/07 at 3:52 PM.
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Originally Posted by Tejs
Indeed, regemming is an issue I found. I actually gemmed my stuff before reading some FAQs here on these boards and have been too lazy to spend the money just for BoK benefits. It *is* on my to-do list though.
I didnt really notice being rage starved though - I was able to Bloodthirst and WW every time they were up as I recall, especially with Windfury and Cave Ins giving me rage. Filtered WWS Report: Wow Web Stats BT at +9 Sec, +17, +24, so about on average 9, 8, 7 seconds respectively. Obviously more than 6 seconds between each, but I think GCD was nuking me each time. WW happened at +11, +21, so about 10 between the first two. Would WWS report lower DPS from time spent moving back into position from Ground Stomp? Looks like I'm getting a lot of glancing. |
I think you were onto something though when you mentioned when you used your bloodthirsts and whirlwinds.
At 4:10:24 you WW, at 4:10:27 you Bloodthirst, looks like there is a ground slam and shatter around 4:10:39, then you get back on top of Gruul at 4:10:41. Then your next Bloodthirst is over 4 seconds later at 4:10:45, then WW at 4:10:47. All there is between the shatter and that Bloodthirst is white damage, seems to me like you should have been able to WW or Bloodthirst earlier than that? It also seems like you could have slid in another WW at 4:10:33 before you ran out for the ground slam?
I know its easier said than done, but I've these are the kinda things I wanna have figured out by the time I hit 70, gotta show my rogue friends who is boss :P
Our guild is getting ready to move into MH/BT and I'm at a crossroads.
I'm at the point where I'm not sure which stats I'm lacking and which I have may have too much. I know a lot of the MH/BT gear focuses on armor pen, etc. and I could use some advice on this. Should I be stacking armor pen, haste, crit, and at expense to what? I haven't seen any stats on it yet so if there is a good guide or link it would be helpful.
Here's my armory, and help is greatly appreciated!
The World of Warcraft Armory
I'm at the point where I'm not sure which stats I'm lacking and which I have may have too much. I know a lot of the MH/BT gear focuses on armor pen, etc. and I could use some advice on this. Should I be stacking armor pen, haste, crit, and at expense to what? I haven't seen any stats on it yet so if there is a good guide or link it would be helpful.
Here's my armory, and help is greatly appreciated!
The World of Warcraft Armory
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Originally Posted by Mooregame
Our guild is getting ready to move into MH/BT and I'm at a crossroads.
I'm at the point where I'm not sure which stats I'm lacking and which I have may have too much. I know a lot of the MH/BT gear focuses on armor pen, etc. and I could use some advice on this. Should I be stacking armor pen, haste, crit, and at expense to what? I haven't seen any stats on it yet so if there is a good guide or link it would be helpful. Here's my armory, and help is greatly appreciated! The World of Warcraft Armory |
And imp tc vs iron will since you will, in all likelihood, will be doing off-tanking from time to time.
And if no other warrior has it, Piercing Howl and 2/5 Imp Demo shout as are handy to have and easy for a Fury warrior to keep up.
My guild currently has 4/5 Hyjal and the first 2-3 bosses of BT down, and i've switched from my resto shaman to my DW fury warrior for raiding. My armory is here. I recently changed my talent spec but haven't had a chance to try it out in raids yet. I also have a [Merciless Gladiator's Left Ripper] with a potency enchant on, but I picked the dagger up from a ZA run to test it out. I'd like to get a slower offhand if possible.
I'm not really sure of what path i should take next in regards to gear choices or what stat to improve on. I know that a lot of gear needs an upgrade. I'd appreciate any input you guys would have.
I'm not really sure of what path i should take next in regards to gear choices or what stat to improve on. I know that a lot of gear needs an upgrade. I'd appreciate any input you guys would have.
Edited onPatch 2.3.0
Since the haste nerf, there is generally just one 'best' off-tier item for each slot in MH/BT and that is the one that simply doesn't have haste on it. Get them whenever they drop for you, because they will all be better than what you have and if you happen to run into any stat-deficiencies (most likely +hit) then simply apply a temporary stopgap by regemming or eating +hit food until you get the key +hit pieces. Depending on your loot system, you can also go for T6 pieces, but as mentioned before, it is preferable to most people to just get the lesser-contented off-tier loot that is almost as good or better until you get the set bonuses of T6 working for you. It will also help out the classes you share a token with and your warrior tanks. For weapons what you have is pretty solid already, maybe a blade of infamy for your OH would be a small upgrade, check the spreadsheet I'd say.
In the mean time, remove those +hit gems from your gear and replace them with +crit or crit/str. And buying a wad of arcane tomes from the AH to get your Aldor rep to exalted for a decent shoulder enchant should help aswell.
Also, is it me or does not a single warrior in your guild have points in improved demo? If you want to make yourself really useful, get 5/5 and make one of your locks start putting CoR on bosses.
In the mean time, remove those +hit gems from your gear and replace them with +crit or crit/str. And buying a wad of arcane tomes from the AH to get your Aldor rep to exalted for a decent shoulder enchant should help aswell.
Also, is it me or does not a single warrior in your guild have points in improved demo? If you want to make yourself really useful, get 5/5 and make one of your locks start putting CoR on bosses.
Last edited by Dynalisia : 12/16/07 at 12:25 PM.
Thanks for the input Dyn.
I think our offtank is going to respec into imp. demo, as we do use recklessness quite a bit. If it doesn't work out I wouldn't mind getting it in place of unbridled wrath I suppose. Regarding losing the hit gems, is there a certain hit rating I should be aiming for? I would assume the 15% with precision is enough.
Thanks again for the help.
(Oh I did get the spreadsheet in the [Warrior] DPS Spreadsheet 2.3 and beyond thread, but OpenOffice decided to throw a fit and refuse to open it. I'll take another look later if I can)
I think our offtank is going to respec into imp. demo, as we do use recklessness quite a bit. If it doesn't work out I wouldn't mind getting it in place of unbridled wrath I suppose. Regarding losing the hit gems, is there a certain hit rating I should be aiming for? I would assume the 15% with precision is enough.
Thanks again for the help.
(Oh I did get the spreadsheet in the [Warrior] DPS Spreadsheet 2.3 and beyond thread, but OpenOffice decided to throw a fit and refuse to open it. I'll take another look later if I can)
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Originally Posted by Infernox
Thanks for the input Dyn.
I think our offtank is going to respec into imp. demo, as we do use recklessness quite a bit. If it doesn't work out I wouldn't mind getting it in place of unbridled wrath I suppose. Regarding losing the hit gems, is there a certain hit rating I should be aiming for? I would assume the 15% with precision is enough. Thanks again for the help. (Oh I did get the spreadsheet in the [Warrior] DPS Spreadsheet 2.3 and beyond thread, but OpenOffice decided to throw a fit and refuse to open it. I'll take another look later if I can) |
As for hit: 15% hitrating is probably way too much. If you want to get to the core of the theorycraft you would have to read a few dozen pages back in this thread, but it has to do with the fact that after you reach 9% total +hit, any more of it would only affect your white hits and not your special attacks anymore. Meaning that it loses close to half of its benefit to you. Extra hitrating also benefits the predictability of your rage generation and any proc effects, but it doesn't weigh up to the damage +crit adds to all melee attacks made.
The current trend is that you just make sure you have your olde 9% +hit so you don't miss any specials (including precision) and once you do stop gemming any +hit at all. As soon as you can afford it due to receiving extra itemized +hit, replace any +hit gems you did have to get to 9% with crit or str/crit ones. If you happen to get +hit because it's itemized into a superior item, that's fine though.
Right now I actually find myself wondering if there would ever be a situation where you would consider speccing out of precision. I know mages do it with their hitrating talent.
I've definatly specced out of precision. Random pieces give enough +hit to make cap. And there are too many new goodies to in the fury tree to pass up. If you find that you have over 9% hit, i definatly suggest dropping some of the points in precision.
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Originally Posted by Lambach
I've definatly specced out of precision. Random pieces give enough +hit to make cap. And there are too many new goodies to in the fury tree to pass up. If you find that you have over 9% hit, i definatly suggest dropping some of the points in precision.
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Exactly. Well you can still take a point or 2 in precision if you feel its not worth it. But weapon mastery definatly is. I really enjoy imp execute, and I prefer imp ww to fix my rotation over teh 1% hit. Id say you could probably drop 1-2 of the points in imp ww for more in precision.
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Originally Posted by Lambach
Exactly. Well you can still take a point or 2 in precision if you feel its not worth it. But weapon mastery definatly is. I really enjoy imp execute, and I prefer imp ww to fix my rotation over teh 1% hit. Id say you could probably drop 1-2 of the points in imp ww for more in precision.
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Don't forget though, with the defiance talent change i'll probably be going for something like Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft just to see how it performs over impale. The build just allows enough points to get all the worthwhile talents in both trees.
How did i double post 6 hours later? sorry please delete
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Originally Posted by Bevz
Precision is still worth having even at decent hit rating levels but agreed it is something I'd drop first did I want to try something else.
Don't forget though, with the defiance talent change i'll probably be going for something like Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft just to see how it performs over impale. The build just allows enough points to get all the worthwhile talents in both trees. |
I already changed to a 47/14 fury/prot build actually. Feels nice to be able to take all those talents in fury tree. Even though the defiance change is not in yet I still managed to keep my dps at roughly the same level as before. It's of course hard to tell just comparing 2 different raids, but I didn't feel gimped at all. Estimates from the spreadsheet shows a loss of 3-5% going from 17/44/0 to 0/47/14, seems reasonable to me. The great thing about the build is the added survivability. Having Last Stand and +10% armor enabled me to tank Nalorakk for the last 3% yesterday in fury gear+shield, it saved a certain wipe for us. Must say that I really like the build. Will be even more fun when Defiance starts to work in zerk stance.
To Infernox, make a post in the spreadsheet thread about your OpenOffice problems, I could probably help you make it work (or I could upload my OO version of it). The reason why it dies when you try to start it is likely the scripts, they need to be disabled if you want it to work.
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Originally Posted by Bevz
Precision is still worth having even at decent hit rating levels but agreed it is something I'd drop first did I want to try something else.
Don't forget though, with the defiance talent change i'll probably be going for something like Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft just to see how it performs over impale. The build just allows enough points to get all the worthwhile talents in both trees. |
I have perform some simulation on the talent build you have posted.
I found 9% dps lost when you switch from a standard 17/44 build.
This will be still a very good DPS/off-tanking build.
In the simulation program, Imp. WW is set as 1 talent point.
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Originally Posted by phatasma
I have interest on the talent build above with of better off-tanking.
I have perform some simulation on the talent build you have posted. I found 9% dps lost when you switch from a standard 17/44 build. This will be still a very good DPS/off-tanking build. In the simulation program, Imp. WW is set as 1 talent point. |
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Originally Posted by phatasma
I found 9% dps lost when you switch from a standard 17/44 build.
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Next time I'll parse it, but a rough 10% loss between 17/44 and my current 3/44/14 isn't close to being right.
I'm not sure Gruul is such a good benchmark for this though. Your DPS there is most likely tied to how good you are in running back in after cave-ins or how good you are in utilizing DPS time in general.
You're right, he would have the advantage of DWounds ticking during slams and shatters. Personally, I bandage after every shatter without exception. It's a good habit I've never slacked with even when healers have things under control.
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Originally Posted by Mjollnir
You're right, he would have the advantage of DWounds ticking during slams and shatters. Personally, I bandage after every shatter without exception. It's a good habit I've never slacked with even when healers have things under control.
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Both bosses stand reasonably still and there's no AE or other damage source you have to avoid.
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Originally Posted by Mjollnir
Your simulator is flawed, or I've been subject to a higher string of hits/crits. I did 3 Gruul runs recently with a 17/44 warrior- both of us had an enh sham and feral druid in our groups. He also had an BM hunter. His gear setup runs with more hit and ap, but 3% less crit than I. Our numbers were very similar in all 3 attempts- within 1% of each other. Warrior's name is Masita.
Next time I'll parse it, but a rough 10% loss between 17/44 and my current 3/44/14 isn't close to being right. |
Based on a random generator for Crit/Miss/Dodge etc, you will always have different dps show on a certain fight with a short peroid of time. However, if you run the simulator long enough, they always align to a certain DPS value.
And you can found that I only started the simulator for 6min which is not long enough for anything.
I just want to say the defiance build is workable as a DPS and off-tanking build for myself.
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Originally Posted by Mjollnir
Your simulator is flawed, or I've been subject to a higher string of hits/crits. I did 3 Gruul runs recently with a 17/44 warrior- both of us had an enh sham and feral druid in our groups. He also had an BM hunter. His gear setup runs with more hit and ap, but 3% less crit than I. Our numbers were very similar in all 3 attempts- within 1% of each other. Warrior's name is Masita.
Next time I'll parse it, but a rough 10% loss between 17/44 and my current 3/44/14 isn't close to being right. |
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Originally Posted by Emeraude
Your friend isn't even getting the benefit of Defiance in zerker stance. I don't think it says much if he's within 1% of you with such little data, on such a low-end fight. =/
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Again, I'll parse the next one, but a full 10% difference between the 2 specs sounds a bit much.
Edit: Tier of encounter matters not to provide objective comparisons either. Keep this in mind.
Edited onPatch 2.3.0
To start off I'm a 33/28/0 warrior who is usually the only dps warrior in our raids. What I am curious about is how much armor penetration is too much? Right now due to poor drops besides my tier set I'm wearing 5/5 tier6. I planned on using either the [Leggings of Divine Retribution] or [Legguards of Endless Rage] or [Grips of Silent Justice]. My problem is my crit is so low due to wearing all this gear with no crit rating and agility. Also I socketed the way I did due to the fact that my crit rating is already very low and we have no spinels in the bank and I might as well make use of our Pyrestones(don't ask about the blue gems, guild has a one epic gem per piece of loot regardless of sockets)
My main question is how low of a crit percentage is too low? I'm sitting at 31% zerker raid buffed. And how much armor penetration is appropriate is wear over crit %. I have the [Item 'ancient sin'dorei longbow' not found!] but the merc war-edge gives .72% crit and losing that drops me down to 28.77% in zerker unbuffed. Which off piece should I use? Also 4 piece seems incredibly unimpressive and I wonder if it would be better to use some off pieces over it. The problem I run into is dropping below the hit cap with the some of the offpieces(Bloodboil legs) or losing the armor pen on that piece.
Here is my profile because I'm sure armory is down or loading slow: lalar - Character - World of Warcraft - WoWDigger
Here's armory if it decides to work for you Armory - Lalar
My main question is how low of a crit percentage is too low? I'm sitting at 31% zerker raid buffed. And how much armor penetration is appropriate is wear over crit %. I have the [Item 'ancient sin'dorei longbow' not found!] but the merc war-edge gives .72% crit and losing that drops me down to 28.77% in zerker unbuffed. Which off piece should I use? Also 4 piece seems incredibly unimpressive and I wonder if it would be better to use some off pieces over it. The problem I run into is dropping below the hit cap with the some of the offpieces(Bloodboil legs) or losing the armor pen on that piece.
Here is my profile because I'm sure armory is down or loading slow: lalar - Character - World of Warcraft - WoWDigger
Here's armory if it decides to work for you Armory - Lalar
Last edited by Lalar : 12/18/07 at 2:55 AM.
Some questions
I have been making heavy use of the Warrior DPS spreadsheets as my Warrior transitions from 17/44 DW to 21/40 or 20/41 2h fury-imp slam. I have a few questions, but I think it might be better to outline the assumptions I am working under first.
1) We have illidan on farm status, so personal e-peen growth is more legitimate at this point than it ever would have been previously (Re: Solarian's Sapphire - Items - World of Warcraft versus Madness of the Betrayer - Items - World of Warcraft)
2) We run melee-light raids, generally our build is 2 to 3 rogues, myself, a feral druid, and an enh shaman.
The prevalent spec for Warriors in T6 with Cataclysm's Edge - Items - World of Warcraft seems to be 33/28 MS / Flurry w/blood frenzy. The overall raid damage boost from BF is undeniable, and in terms of absolute maximum raid dps I have a feeling that for the only dps warrior in the raid, BF and Solarian trinket is probably the way to go. However, If I am talking about pure personal dps in T6 instances, there are a few questions I have unresolved:
1) Belt of One-Hundred Deaths - Items - World of Warcraft versus Red Belt of Battle - Items - World of Warcraft
If I understand the mechanics of expertise correctly, the 6 expertise I gain from the Vashj belt vastly outweighs the hit on RBoB, the crit is similar, and AP is inferior, but not to the point where I see it as a huge problem. So... is this belt a viable high end warrior option? If so, im going to dig it out of my bank and gem it up. (If this can be resolved using the spreadsheet, my apologies. I am pretty bad with excel and couldn't answer this question myself)
2) Deathwish Versus Rampage for 2H fury.
Reading through the Warrior posts I have seen some varying opinions on this one. My feeling is that since Rampage must be reapplied on a regular basis and really screws up the rotation ( At least for me, wearing the 38 haste garbage trash gloves, trash haste ring, and a dst ) and deathwish is only a marginal theoretical dps decrease, I might stick with deathwish. If there is any real theorycraft to refute this that I havn't managed to find here, a link would be much appreciated.
3) Armor penetration, effective scaling, and the use or lack thereof of DPS Warrior T6
At high end there are some difficult decisions to make with warrior itemization. It is fairly simple to plug these items into the spreadsheet and see what yields the highest dps, but the spreadsheets seem to ignore the scaling value of armor penetration. I read somewhere that the spreadsheet will model it correctly given a few resets, but I cannot seem to get it to work. Warrior T6 seems like a slightly lackluster dps set relative to the value of 4/5 T6 to the pure dps classes, and DPS warriors also have quite a large range of off-set items with high Ilvl and decent stat allocation... so:
-Do I wear 4/5 tier 6 at all, or use a combination of the offset DPS plate pieces.
-If yes to 4piece T6, which piece do I sacrifice for the one (often superior) offset piece that I can wear?
-Assuming static armor penetration of 685 from my other gear, w/ potential procs from Madness of the betrayer and executioner, does Legguards of Endless Rage - Items - World of Warcraft get outweighed by the scaling value of armor penetration on Leggings of Divine Retribution - Items - World of Warcraft or do I simply wear T6 legs and use a different slot for my offset piece.
4) How much hit is the right amount (ie: the cap, for 2h, with 3 of 3 precision )
The value I see across the board and on the accepted notions of theorycrafting post is 143 for 1h shield and 2h, but I have not found a post that lists the cap if you are specced into precision with a 2hander. I am not sure if I am just reading this wrong, or whether everyone just specs arms and doesnt care, or whether there is some basic math here that I do not understand. Anyways, there it is.
I am a little tired at the moment and if I have dragged on or repeated myself or asked questions that have easily accessible answers that I was simply too lazy to find, I apologize. Similarly, I know questions about item choices are sometimes frowned on. My justification here is simply that the theory behind these item comparisons is interesting for some warriors that can extend the principles behind these item comparisons to their own gear and spec. 20/41 and 21/40 are fairly rare specs from what I have researched, so information is a little sparse. Also, I couldnt figure out how to tag items to show wowhead stats on mouseover, so please excuse the links =/.
1) We have illidan on farm status, so personal e-peen growth is more legitimate at this point than it ever would have been previously (Re: Solarian's Sapphire - Items - World of Warcraft versus Madness of the Betrayer - Items - World of Warcraft)
2) We run melee-light raids, generally our build is 2 to 3 rogues, myself, a feral druid, and an enh shaman.
The prevalent spec for Warriors in T6 with Cataclysm's Edge - Items - World of Warcraft seems to be 33/28 MS / Flurry w/blood frenzy. The overall raid damage boost from BF is undeniable, and in terms of absolute maximum raid dps I have a feeling that for the only dps warrior in the raid, BF and Solarian trinket is probably the way to go. However, If I am talking about pure personal dps in T6 instances, there are a few questions I have unresolved:
1) Belt of One-Hundred Deaths - Items - World of Warcraft versus Red Belt of Battle - Items - World of Warcraft
If I understand the mechanics of expertise correctly, the 6 expertise I gain from the Vashj belt vastly outweighs the hit on RBoB, the crit is similar, and AP is inferior, but not to the point where I see it as a huge problem. So... is this belt a viable high end warrior option? If so, im going to dig it out of my bank and gem it up. (If this can be resolved using the spreadsheet, my apologies. I am pretty bad with excel and couldn't answer this question myself)
2) Deathwish Versus Rampage for 2H fury.
Reading through the Warrior posts I have seen some varying opinions on this one. My feeling is that since Rampage must be reapplied on a regular basis and really screws up the rotation ( At least for me, wearing the 38 haste garbage trash gloves, trash haste ring, and a dst ) and deathwish is only a marginal theoretical dps decrease, I might stick with deathwish. If there is any real theorycraft to refute this that I havn't managed to find here, a link would be much appreciated.
3) Armor penetration, effective scaling, and the use or lack thereof of DPS Warrior T6
At high end there are some difficult decisions to make with warrior itemization. It is fairly simple to plug these items into the spreadsheet and see what yields the highest dps, but the spreadsheets seem to ignore the scaling value of armor penetration. I read somewhere that the spreadsheet will model it correctly given a few resets, but I cannot seem to get it to work. Warrior T6 seems like a slightly lackluster dps set relative to the value of 4/5 T6 to the pure dps classes, and DPS warriors also have quite a large range of off-set items with high Ilvl and decent stat allocation... so:
-Do I wear 4/5 tier 6 at all, or use a combination of the offset DPS plate pieces.
-If yes to 4piece T6, which piece do I sacrifice for the one (often superior) offset piece that I can wear?
-Assuming static armor penetration of 685 from my other gear, w/ potential procs from Madness of the betrayer and executioner, does Legguards of Endless Rage - Items - World of Warcraft get outweighed by the scaling value of armor penetration on Leggings of Divine Retribution - Items - World of Warcraft or do I simply wear T6 legs and use a different slot for my offset piece.
4) How much hit is the right amount (ie: the cap, for 2h, with 3 of 3 precision )
The value I see across the board and on the accepted notions of theorycrafting post is 143 for 1h shield and 2h, but I have not found a post that lists the cap if you are specced into precision with a 2hander. I am not sure if I am just reading this wrong, or whether everyone just specs arms and doesnt care, or whether there is some basic math here that I do not understand. Anyways, there it is.
I am a little tired at the moment and if I have dragged on or repeated myself or asked questions that have easily accessible answers that I was simply too lazy to find, I apologize. Similarly, I know questions about item choices are sometimes frowned on. My justification here is simply that the theory behind these item comparisons is interesting for some warriors that can extend the principles behind these item comparisons to their own gear and spec. 20/41 and 21/40 are fairly rare specs from what I have researched, so information is a little sparse. Also, I couldnt figure out how to tag items to show wowhead stats on mouseover, so please excuse the links =/.
Thanks for reading
-Color
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Originally Posted by Color
2h fury question stuff
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Calculating the hit % needed to reach cap is pretty easy, 1% hit at level 70 is 15.8 hit rating and against level 73 or boss level mobs the chance to miss is 9%. If you get 3/3 precision, you'll need 95 hit rating to hit cap (6 * 15.8 = 94.8. Always round up so 95) but you'll probably only want to put max 2 points in to precision, if not less or none if you're already at 9% hit.
and to link items:
[item]Item's name[/item]
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Originally Posted by Color
I have been making heavy use of the Warrior DPS spreadsheets as my Warrior transitions from 17/44 DW to 21/40 or 20/41 2h fury-imp slam. I have a few questions, but I think it might be better to outline the assumptions I am working under first. 1) We have illidan on farm status, so personal e-peen growth is more legitimate at this point than it ever would have been previously (Re: Solarian's Sapphire - Items - World of Warcraft versus Madness of the Betrayer - Items - World of Warcraft) 2) We run melee-light raids, generally our build is 2 to 3 rogues, myself, a feral druid, and an enh shaman. The prevalent spec for Warriors in T6 with Cataclysm's Edge - Items - World of Warcraft seems to be 33/28 MS / Flurry w/blood frenzy. The overall raid damage boost from BF is undeniable, and in terms of absolute maximum raid dps I have a feeling that for the only dps warrior in the raid, BF and Solarian trinket is probably the way to go. However, If I am talking about pure personal dps in T6 instances, there are a few questions I have unresolved: 1) Belt of One-Hundred Deaths - Items - World of Warcraft versus Red Belt of Battle - Items - World of Warcraft If I understand the mechanics of expertise correctly, the 6 expertise I gain from the Vashj belt vastly outweighs the hit on RBoB, the crit is similar, and AP is inferior, but not to the point where I see it as a huge problem. So... is this belt a viable high end warrior option? If so, im going to dig it out of my bank and gem it up. (If this can be resolved using the spreadsheet, my apologies. I am pretty bad with excel and couldn't answer this question myself) 2) Deathwish Versus Rampage for 2H fury. Reading through the Warrior posts I have seen some varying opinions on this one. My feeling is that since Rampage must be reapplied on a regular basis and really screws up the rotation ( At least for me, wearing the 38 haste garbage trash gloves, trash haste ring, and a dst ) and deathwish is only a marginal theoretical dps decrease, I might stick with deathwish. If there is any real theorycraft to refute this that I havn't managed to find here, a link would be much appreciated. 3) Armor penetration, effective scaling, and the use or lack thereof of DPS Warrior T6 At high end there are some difficult decisions to make with warrior itemization. It is fairly simple to plug these items into the spreadsheet and see what yields the highest dps, but the spreadsheets seem to ignore the scaling value of armor penetration. I read somewhere that the spreadsheet will model it correctly given a few resets, but I cannot seem to get it to work. Warrior T6 seems like a slightly lackluster dps set relative to the value of 4/5 T6 to the pure dps classes, and DPS warriors also have quite a large range of off-set items with high Ilvl and decent stat allocation... so: -Do I wear 4/5 tier 6 at all, or use a combination of the offset DPS plate pieces. -If yes to 4piece T6, which piece do I sacrifice for the one (often superior) offset piece that I can wear? -Assuming static armor penetration of 685 from my other gear, w/ potential procs from Madness of the betrayer and executioner, does Legguards of Endless Rage - Items - World of Warcraft get outweighed by the scaling value of armor penetration on Leggings of Divine Retribution - Items - World of Warcraft or do I simply wear T6 legs and use a different slot for my offset piece. 4) How much hit is the right amount (ie: the cap, for 2h, with 3 of 3 precision ) The value I see across the board and on the accepted notions of theorycrafting post is 143 for 1h shield and 2h, but I have not found a post that lists the cap if you are specced into precision with a 2hander. I am not sure if I am just reading this wrong, or whether everyone just specs arms and doesnt care, or whether there is some basic math here that I do not understand. Anyways, there it is. I am a little tired at the moment and if I have dragged on or repeated myself or asked questions that have easily accessible answers that I was simply too lazy to find, I apologize. Similarly, I know questions about item choices are sometimes frowned on. My justification here is simply that the theory behind these item comparisons is interesting for some warriors that can extend the principles behind these item comparisons to their own gear and spec. 20/41 and 21/40 are fairly rare specs from what I have researched, so information is a little sparse. Also, I couldnt figure out how to tag items to show wowhead stats on mouseover, so please excuse the links =/. Thanks for reading -Color |
2) 2h Fury just isn't a strong build to begin with and there has been some theory on it just not sure where. Dropping rampage sort of already weakens the build before you start but it is definately an effort to keep up in low rage situations. Given a choice I would take DW over rampage too just for ease of use.
3) 4 piece tier 6 is very lackluster and not something I'd aim for unless the gear was going for cheap. The best set up seems to be tier 6 shoulders + one other, most likely chest. Stick a blue gem in the shoulders and one more in your belt and fill the rest up with str gems. Cursed vision of Sargeras, Silent Justice and Divine Retribution make up your other 3 slots. Would be hard pressed to find a better combination.
As for armour penetration its probably going to give you the biggest increase in dps over straight ap and at some point also crit. Also has the added benefit of the more you get the better it becomes.
4) As mikebro said, 9% hit is what you need for any 2hand spec. For dw its more but past 9% you lose half its value.
Hey, I just wanted to ask the DPS Warrior community a few questions regarding 2H MS (3/5 flurry) DPS.
Okay, so I know the general 2h DPS cycle is Auto--> Slam--> Instant... but since 2h rage generation is so volatile, I am very rarely able to follow a rigid cycle, like a DW Fury Warrior. I lack experience DPSing with a 2H, so I'd like to pose a situations where I am unsure as what the best course of action would be.
I use a Cataclysm's Edge (3.5 speed // 3.0 flurried)
1. [80 Rage] Auto Attack--> Slam--> Mortal Strike-->?
Swing Timer:_______________0_______1.5_______3.0
So I start off with 80 rage before the auto attack, and then I go through the DPS cycle once. At this point in time, I feel I have two options: Wait for an auto attack and slam, or Whirlwind and skip slam. I'm tempted to whirlwind because it doesn't reset my swing timer and I'm eager to put it on cooldown so I can use it again sooner. Should I wait for the auto attack or Whirlwind? Also, if I do whirlwind, should I still slam (swing timer should be at 1.5s since the last auto attack hit).
2. Auto Attack--> Slam-->? [30 rage]
In this scenario, I'm left with 30 rage 2/3 of the way into the cycle. I can either use mortal strike now and start a new cycle with 0 rage, or skip using an instant for this cycle and use it on the next cycle. I've found out that I seem to be able to slam sooner after an auto attack if I already I have >15 rage before the auto attack hits, rather than spamming slam while waiting for the rage from the auto attack.
3. Do you guys chain slam or use heroic strike when your rage is, or nearly is, full?
Okay, so I know the general 2h DPS cycle is Auto--> Slam--> Instant... but since 2h rage generation is so volatile, I am very rarely able to follow a rigid cycle, like a DW Fury Warrior. I lack experience DPSing with a 2H, so I'd like to pose a situations where I am unsure as what the best course of action would be.
I use a Cataclysm's Edge (3.5 speed // 3.0 flurried)
1. [80 Rage] Auto Attack--> Slam--> Mortal Strike-->?
Swing Timer:_______________0_______1.5_______3.0
So I start off with 80 rage before the auto attack, and then I go through the DPS cycle once. At this point in time, I feel I have two options: Wait for an auto attack and slam, or Whirlwind and skip slam. I'm tempted to whirlwind because it doesn't reset my swing timer and I'm eager to put it on cooldown so I can use it again sooner. Should I wait for the auto attack or Whirlwind? Also, if I do whirlwind, should I still slam (swing timer should be at 1.5s since the last auto attack hit).
2. Auto Attack--> Slam-->? [30 rage]
In this scenario, I'm left with 30 rage 2/3 of the way into the cycle. I can either use mortal strike now and start a new cycle with 0 rage, or skip using an instant for this cycle and use it on the next cycle. I've found out that I seem to be able to slam sooner after an auto attack if I already I have >15 rage before the auto attack hits, rather than spamming slam while waiting for the rage from the auto attack.
3. Do you guys chain slam or use heroic strike when your rage is, or nearly is, full?
Edited onPatch 2.3.0
I don't have a viable answer to your question, but, I'm wondering how you start out with 80 rage?
It seems like I'm pulled into combat by our MT, so that kills my charge. I don't have the rage to use Intercept, so i resort to hacking on the target with White attacks. Meanwhile, the Hunters and Rogues are going crazy on the DPS. I glance at Damage Meter and I have just a little more DPS than the tank does.
Crap.
I can always hit Bloodrage, which gives me an extra 10, which is enough to get my white hit started, but that seems like it.
It seems like I'm pulled into combat by our MT, so that kills my charge. I don't have the rage to use Intercept, so i resort to hacking on the target with White attacks. Meanwhile, the Hunters and Rogues are going crazy on the DPS. I glance at Damage Meter and I have just a little more DPS than the tank does.
Crap.
I can always hit Bloodrage, which gives me an extra 10, which is enough to get my white hit started, but that seems like it.
Last edited by Fezzick : 12/18/07 at 1:03 PM.
Oh, I guess I wasn't too clear about that, sorry.
I didn't mean for those situations to occur at the beginning of a fight. Think of them more like different instances you might find yourself in during a fight.
I didn't mean for those situations to occur at the beginning of a fight. Think of them more like different instances you might find yourself in during a fight.
Ahh, I thought I was doing something wrong (well, I probably still am)
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Originally Posted by ch3xmix
1. [80 Rage] Auto Attack--> Slam--> Mortal Strike-->? Swing Timer:_______________0_______1.5_______3.0 So I start off with 80 rage before the auto attack, and then I go through the DPS cycle once. At this point in time, I feel I have two options: Wait for an auto attack and slam, or Whirlwind and skip slam. I'm tempted to whirlwind because it doesn't reset my swing timer and I'm eager to put it on cooldown so I can use it again sooner. Should I wait for the auto attack or Whirlwind? Also, if I do whirlwind, should I still slam (swing timer should be at 1.5s since the last auto attack hit). |
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2. Auto Attack--> Slam-->? [30 rage] In this scenario, I'm left with 30 rage 2/3 of the way into the cycle. I can either use mortal strike now and start a new cycle with 0 rage, or skip using an instant for this cycle and use it on the next cycle. I've found out that I seem to be able to slam sooner after an auto attack if I already I have >15 rage before the auto attack hits, rather than spamming slam while waiting for the rage from the auto attack. |
| 3. Do you guys chain slam or use heroic strike when your rage is, or nearly is, full? |
When it comes to heroic strike, I find myself rarely using it as 33/28, except when I'm actually at 100 rage. While making sure the attack can't glance is nice, you lose out on 15 rage, plus whatever rage you would have gained from the white attack (20-40?). Hence the damage per rage conversion is atrocious (35-55 rage for ~200 more damage?), and more importantly, it can leave you in that #2 situation where you can't cast slam until the server registers your rage gain from a white attack.
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Originally Posted by ch3xmix
Hey, I just wanted to ask the DPS Warrior community a few questions regarding 2H MS (3/5 flurry) DPS.
1. [80 Rage] Auto Attack--> Slam--> Mortal Strike-->? Swing Timer:_______________0_______1.5_______3.0 So I start off with 80 rage before the auto attack, and then I go through the DPS cycle once. At this point in time, I feel I have two options: Wait for an auto attack and slam, or Whirlwind and skip slam. I'm tempted to whirlwind because it doesn't reset my swing timer and I'm eager to put it on cooldown so I can use it again sooner. Should I wait for the auto attack or Whirlwind? Also, if I do whirlwind, should I still slam (swing timer should be at 1.5s since the last auto attack hit). |
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Originally Posted by ch3xmix
2. Auto Attack--> Slam-->? [30 rage]
In this scenario, I'm left with 30 rage 2/3 of the way into the cycle. I can either use mortal strike now and start a new cycle with 0 rage, or skip using an instant for this cycle and use it on the next cycle. I've found out that I seem to be able to slam sooner after an auto attack if I already I have >15 rage before the auto attack hits, rather than spamming slam while waiting for the rage from the auto attack. |
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Originally Posted by ch3xmix
3. Do you guys chain slam or use heroic strike when your rage is, or nearly is, full?
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Originally Posted by Fezzick
It seems like I'm pulled into combat by our MT, so that kills my charge. I don't have the rage to use Intercept, so i resort to hacking on the target with White attacks. Meanwhile, the Hunters and Rogues are going crazy on the DPS. I glance at Damage Meter and I have just a little more DPS than the tank does.
Crap. I can always hit Bloodrage, which gives me an extra 10, which is enough to get my white hit started, but that seems like it. |
Why would you engage a raidboss by intercepting it, am I missing something essential here?
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Originally Posted by Dynalisia
Why would you engage a raidboss by intercepting it, am I missing something essential here?
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I could walk up to the boss, but that might take 3-5sec longer. In the meantime, white hits could be taking place.
The latency fix, that is going around, really helps Slam. 30ms are nice 
Also, in any boss fights where you have to move around a lot, I do intervene -> intercept combos to get to the boss faster. One second of DPS more (even if it's white hits only because you have no rage) is far more DPS than saving up your rage.
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The faster you get to the boss, the faster you begin dps. 1 MH hit is going to more than cover the 10rage it took to arrive via Intercept. I could walk up to the boss, but that might take 3-5sec longer. In the meantime, white hits could be taking place. |
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Originally Posted by Zalein
Also, in any boss fights where you have to move around a lot, I do intervene -> intercept combos to get to the boss faster. One second of DPS more (even if it's white hits only because you have no rage) is far more DPS than saving up your rage.
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Originally Posted by Dynalisia
Wouldn't you say that starting the fight at a distance from the boss is more exception than the rule though? Most of the time a boss is MD'd to your tank, allowing you to position yourself right next to where it's going to be standing when the fighting begins.
Good point, Mother after getting FA'd is a good example I can think of where this is useful. |
As for the latency fix that's going around ....<3 <3 <3. Was getting really frustrated with sitting at around 150ms. I's hard to explain to others how much of a difference it makes.
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Originally Posted by Zalein
Also, in any boss fights where you have to move around a lot, I do intervene -> intercept combos to get to the boss faster. One second of DPS more (even if it's white hits only because you have no rage) is far more DPS than saving up your rage.
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Originally Posted by phatasma
I found 9% dps lost when you switch from a standard 17/44 build.
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Next time I'll parse it, but a rough 10% loss between 17/44 and my current 3/44/14 isn't close to being right.
I'm not sure Gruul is such a good benchmark for this though. Your DPS there is most likely tied to how good you are in running back in after cave-ins or how good you are in utilizing DPS time in general.
You're right, he would have the advantage of DWounds ticking during slams and shatters. Personally, I bandage after every shatter without exception. It's a good habit I've never slacked with even when healers have things under control.
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Originally Posted by Mjollnir
You're right, he would have the advantage of DWounds ticking during slams and shatters. Personally, I bandage after every shatter without exception. It's a good habit I've never slacked with even when healers have things under control.
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Both bosses stand reasonably still and there's no AE or other damage source you have to avoid.
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Originally Posted by Mjollnir
Your simulator is flawed, or I've been subject to a higher string of hits/crits. I did 3 Gruul runs recently with a 17/44 warrior- both of us had an enh sham and feral druid in our groups. He also had an BM hunter. His gear setup runs with more hit and ap, but 3% less crit than I. Our numbers were very similar in all 3 attempts- within 1% of each other. Warrior's name is Masita.
Next time I'll parse it, but a rough 10% loss between 17/44 and my current 3/44/14 isn't close to being right. |
Based on a random generator for Crit/Miss/Dodge etc, you will always have different dps show on a certain fight with a short peroid of time. However, if you run the simulator long enough, they always align to a certain DPS value.
And you can found that I only started the simulator for 6min which is not long enough for anything.
I just want to say the defiance build is workable as a DPS and off-tanking build for myself.
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Originally Posted by Mjollnir
Your simulator is flawed, or I've been subject to a higher string of hits/crits. I did 3 Gruul runs recently with a 17/44 warrior- both of us had an enh sham and feral druid in our groups. He also had an BM hunter. His gear setup runs with more hit and ap, but 3% less crit than I. Our numbers were very similar in all 3 attempts- within 1% of each other. Warrior's name is Masita.
Next time I'll parse it, but a rough 10% loss between 17/44 and my current 3/44/14 isn't close to being right. |
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Originally Posted by Emeraude
Your friend isn't even getting the benefit of Defiance in zerker stance. I don't think it says much if he's within 1% of you with such little data, on such a low-end fight. =/
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Again, I'll parse the next one, but a full 10% difference between the 2 specs sounds a bit much.
Edit: Tier of encounter matters not to provide objective comparisons either. Keep this in mind.
Edited onPatch 2.3.0
To start off I'm a 33/28/0 warrior who is usually the only dps warrior in our raids. What I am curious about is how much armor penetration is too much? Right now due to poor drops besides my tier set I'm wearing 5/5 tier6. I planned on using either the [Leggings of Divine Retribution] or [Legguards of Endless Rage] or [Grips of Silent Justice]. My problem is my crit is so low due to wearing all this gear with no crit rating and agility. Also I socketed the way I did due to the fact that my crit rating is already very low and we have no spinels in the bank and I might as well make use of our Pyrestones(don't ask about the blue gems, guild has a one epic gem per piece of loot regardless of sockets)
My main question is how low of a crit percentage is too low? I'm sitting at 31% zerker raid buffed. And how much armor penetration is appropriate is wear over crit %. I have the [Item 'ancient sin'dorei longbow' not found!] but the merc war-edge gives .72% crit and losing that drops me down to 28.77% in zerker unbuffed. Which off piece should I use? Also 4 piece seems incredibly unimpressive and I wonder if it would be better to use some off pieces over it. The problem I run into is dropping below the hit cap with the some of the offpieces(Bloodboil legs) or losing the armor pen on that piece.
Here is my profile because I'm sure armory is down or loading slow: lalar - Character - World of Warcraft - WoWDigger
Here's armory if it decides to work for you Armory - Lalar
My main question is how low of a crit percentage is too low? I'm sitting at 31% zerker raid buffed. And how much armor penetration is appropriate is wear over crit %. I have the [Item 'ancient sin'dorei longbow' not found!] but the merc war-edge gives .72% crit and losing that drops me down to 28.77% in zerker unbuffed. Which off piece should I use? Also 4 piece seems incredibly unimpressive and I wonder if it would be better to use some off pieces over it. The problem I run into is dropping below the hit cap with the some of the offpieces(Bloodboil legs) or losing the armor pen on that piece.
Here is my profile because I'm sure armory is down or loading slow: lalar - Character - World of Warcraft - WoWDigger
Here's armory if it decides to work for you Armory - Lalar
Last edited by Lalar : 12/18/07 at 2:55 AM.
Some questions
I have been making heavy use of the Warrior DPS spreadsheets as my Warrior transitions from 17/44 DW to 21/40 or 20/41 2h fury-imp slam. I have a few questions, but I think it might be better to outline the assumptions I am working under first.
1) We have illidan on farm status, so personal e-peen growth is more legitimate at this point than it ever would have been previously (Re: Solarian's Sapphire - Items - World of Warcraft versus Madness of the Betrayer - Items - World of Warcraft)
2) We run melee-light raids, generally our build is 2 to 3 rogues, myself, a feral druid, and an enh shaman.
The prevalent spec for Warriors in T6 with Cataclysm's Edge - Items - World of Warcraft seems to be 33/28 MS / Flurry w/blood frenzy. The overall raid damage boost from BF is undeniable, and in terms of absolute maximum raid dps I have a feeling that for the only dps warrior in the raid, BF and Solarian trinket is probably the way to go. However, If I am talking about pure personal dps in T6 instances, there are a few questions I have unresolved:
1) Belt of One-Hundred Deaths - Items - World of Warcraft versus Red Belt of Battle - Items - World of Warcraft
If I understand the mechanics of expertise correctly, the 6 expertise I gain from the Vashj belt vastly outweighs the hit on RBoB, the crit is similar, and AP is inferior, but not to the point where I see it as a huge problem. So... is this belt a viable high end warrior option? If so, im going to dig it out of my bank and gem it up. (If this can be resolved using the spreadsheet, my apologies. I am pretty bad with excel and couldn't answer this question myself)
2) Deathwish Versus Rampage for 2H fury.
Reading through the Warrior posts I have seen some varying opinions on this one. My feeling is that since Rampage must be reapplied on a regular basis and really screws up the rotation ( At least for me, wearing the 38 haste garbage trash gloves, trash haste ring, and a dst ) and deathwish is only a marginal theoretical dps decrease, I might stick with deathwish. If there is any real theorycraft to refute this that I havn't managed to find here, a link would be much appreciated.
3) Armor penetration, effective scaling, and the use or lack thereof of DPS Warrior T6
At high end there are some difficult decisions to make with warrior itemization. It is fairly simple to plug these items into the spreadsheet and see what yields the highest dps, but the spreadsheets seem to ignore the scaling value of armor penetration. I read somewhere that the spreadsheet will model it correctly given a few resets, but I cannot seem to get it to work. Warrior T6 seems like a slightly lackluster dps set relative to the value of 4/5 T6 to the pure dps classes, and DPS warriors also have quite a large range of off-set items with high Ilvl and decent stat allocation... so:
-Do I wear 4/5 tier 6 at all, or use a combination of the offset DPS plate pieces.
-If yes to 4piece T6, which piece do I sacrifice for the one (often superior) offset piece that I can wear?
-Assuming static armor penetration of 685 from my other gear, w/ potential procs from Madness of the betrayer and executioner, does Legguards of Endless Rage - Items - World of Warcraft get outweighed by the scaling value of armor penetration on Leggings of Divine Retribution - Items - World of Warcraft or do I simply wear T6 legs and use a different slot for my offset piece.
4) How much hit is the right amount (ie: the cap, for 2h, with 3 of 3 precision )
The value I see across the board and on the accepted notions of theorycrafting post is 143 for 1h shield and 2h, but I have not found a post that lists the cap if you are specced into precision with a 2hander. I am not sure if I am just reading this wrong, or whether everyone just specs arms and doesnt care, or whether there is some basic math here that I do not understand. Anyways, there it is.
I am a little tired at the moment and if I have dragged on or repeated myself or asked questions that have easily accessible answers that I was simply too lazy to find, I apologize. Similarly, I know questions about item choices are sometimes frowned on. My justification here is simply that the theory behind these item comparisons is interesting for some warriors that can extend the principles behind these item comparisons to their own gear and spec. 20/41 and 21/40 are fairly rare specs from what I have researched, so information is a little sparse. Also, I couldnt figure out how to tag items to show wowhead stats on mouseover, so please excuse the links =/.
1) We have illidan on farm status, so personal e-peen growth is more legitimate at this point than it ever would have been previously (Re: Solarian's Sapphire - Items - World of Warcraft versus Madness of the Betrayer - Items - World of Warcraft)
2) We run melee-light raids, generally our build is 2 to 3 rogues, myself, a feral druid, and an enh shaman.
The prevalent spec for Warriors in T6 with Cataclysm's Edge - Items - World of Warcraft seems to be 33/28 MS / Flurry w/blood frenzy. The overall raid damage boost from BF is undeniable, and in terms of absolute maximum raid dps I have a feeling that for the only dps warrior in the raid, BF and Solarian trinket is probably the way to go. However, If I am talking about pure personal dps in T6 instances, there are a few questions I have unresolved:
1) Belt of One-Hundred Deaths - Items - World of Warcraft versus Red Belt of Battle - Items - World of Warcraft
If I understand the mechanics of expertise correctly, the 6 expertise I gain from the Vashj belt vastly outweighs the hit on RBoB, the crit is similar, and AP is inferior, but not to the point where I see it as a huge problem. So... is this belt a viable high end warrior option? If so, im going to dig it out of my bank and gem it up. (If this can be resolved using the spreadsheet, my apologies. I am pretty bad with excel and couldn't answer this question myself)
2) Deathwish Versus Rampage for 2H fury.
Reading through the Warrior posts I have seen some varying opinions on this one. My feeling is that since Rampage must be reapplied on a regular basis and really screws up the rotation ( At least for me, wearing the 38 haste garbage trash gloves, trash haste ring, and a dst ) and deathwish is only a marginal theoretical dps decrease, I might stick with deathwish. If there is any real theorycraft to refute this that I havn't managed to find here, a link would be much appreciated.
3) Armor penetration, effective scaling, and the use or lack thereof of DPS Warrior T6
At high end there are some difficult decisions to make with warrior itemization. It is fairly simple to plug these items into the spreadsheet and see what yields the highest dps, but the spreadsheets seem to ignore the scaling value of armor penetration. I read somewhere that the spreadsheet will model it correctly given a few resets, but I cannot seem to get it to work. Warrior T6 seems like a slightly lackluster dps set relative to the value of 4/5 T6 to the pure dps classes, and DPS warriors also have quite a large range of off-set items with high Ilvl and decent stat allocation... so:
-Do I wear 4/5 tier 6 at all, or use a combination of the offset DPS plate pieces.
-If yes to 4piece T6, which piece do I sacrifice for the one (often superior) offset piece that I can wear?
-Assuming static armor penetration of 685 from my other gear, w/ potential procs from Madness of the betrayer and executioner, does Legguards of Endless Rage - Items - World of Warcraft get outweighed by the scaling value of armor penetration on Leggings of Divine Retribution - Items - World of Warcraft or do I simply wear T6 legs and use a different slot for my offset piece.
4) How much hit is the right amount (ie: the cap, for 2h, with 3 of 3 precision )
The value I see across the board and on the accepted notions of theorycrafting post is 143 for 1h shield and 2h, but I have not found a post that lists the cap if you are specced into precision with a 2hander. I am not sure if I am just reading this wrong, or whether everyone just specs arms and doesnt care, or whether there is some basic math here that I do not understand. Anyways, there it is.
I am a little tired at the moment and if I have dragged on or repeated myself or asked questions that have easily accessible answers that I was simply too lazy to find, I apologize. Similarly, I know questions about item choices are sometimes frowned on. My justification here is simply that the theory behind these item comparisons is interesting for some warriors that can extend the principles behind these item comparisons to their own gear and spec. 20/41 and 21/40 are fairly rare specs from what I have researched, so information is a little sparse. Also, I couldnt figure out how to tag items to show wowhead stats on mouseover, so please excuse the links =/.
Thanks for reading
-Color
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Originally Posted by Color
2h fury question stuff
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Calculating the hit % needed to reach cap is pretty easy, 1% hit at level 70 is 15.8 hit rating and against level 73 or boss level mobs the chance to miss is 9%. If you get 3/3 precision, you'll need 95 hit rating to hit cap (6 * 15.8 = 94.8. Always round up so 95) but you'll probably only want to put max 2 points in to precision, if not less or none if you're already at 9% hit.
and to link items:
[item]Item's name[/item]
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Originally Posted by Color
I have been making heavy use of the Warrior DPS spreadsheets as my Warrior transitions from 17/44 DW to 21/40 or 20/41 2h fury-imp slam. I have a few questions, but I think it might be better to outline the assumptions I am working under first. 1) We have illidan on farm status, so personal e-peen growth is more legitimate at this point than it ever would have been previously (Re: Solarian's Sapphire - Items - World of Warcraft versus Madness of the Betrayer - Items - World of Warcraft) 2) We run melee-light raids, generally our build is 2 to 3 rogues, myself, a feral druid, and an enh shaman. The prevalent spec for Warriors in T6 with Cataclysm's Edge - Items - World of Warcraft seems to be 33/28 MS / Flurry w/blood frenzy. The overall raid damage boost from BF is undeniable, and in terms of absolute maximum raid dps I have a feeling that for the only dps warrior in the raid, BF and Solarian trinket is probably the way to go. However, If I am talking about pure personal dps in T6 instances, there are a few questions I have unresolved: 1) Belt of One-Hundred Deaths - Items - World of Warcraft versus Red Belt of Battle - Items - World of Warcraft If I understand the mechanics of expertise correctly, the 6 expertise I gain from the Vashj belt vastly outweighs the hit on RBoB, the crit is similar, and AP is inferior, but not to the point where I see it as a huge problem. So... is this belt a viable high end warrior option? If so, im going to dig it out of my bank and gem it up. (If this can be resolved using the spreadsheet, my apologies. I am pretty bad with excel and couldn't answer this question myself) 2) Deathwish Versus Rampage for 2H fury. Reading through the Warrior posts I have seen some varying opinions on this one. My feeling is that since Rampage must be reapplied on a regular basis and really screws up the rotation ( At least for me, wearing the 38 haste garbage trash gloves, trash haste ring, and a dst ) and deathwish is only a marginal theoretical dps decrease, I might stick with deathwish. If there is any real theorycraft to refute this that I havn't managed to find here, a link would be much appreciated. 3) Armor penetration, effective scaling, and the use or lack thereof of DPS Warrior T6 At high end there are some difficult decisions to make with warrior itemization. It is fairly simple to plug these items into the spreadsheet and see what yields the highest dps, but the spreadsheets seem to ignore the scaling value of armor penetration. I read somewhere that the spreadsheet will model it correctly given a few resets, but I cannot seem to get it to work. Warrior T6 seems like a slightly lackluster dps set relative to the value of 4/5 T6 to the pure dps classes, and DPS warriors also have quite a large range of off-set items with high Ilvl and decent stat allocation... so: -Do I wear 4/5 tier 6 at all, or use a combination of the offset DPS plate pieces. -If yes to 4piece T6, which piece do I sacrifice for the one (often superior) offset piece that I can wear? -Assuming static armor penetration of 685 from my other gear, w/ potential procs from Madness of the betrayer and executioner, does Legguards of Endless Rage - Items - World of Warcraft get outweighed by the scaling value of armor penetration on Leggings of Divine Retribution - Items - World of Warcraft or do I simply wear T6 legs and use a different slot for my offset piece. 4) How much hit is the right amount (ie: the cap, for 2h, with 3 of 3 precision ) The value I see across the board and on the accepted notions of theorycrafting post is 143 for 1h shield and 2h, but I have not found a post that lists the cap if you are specced into precision with a 2hander. I am not sure if I am just reading this wrong, or whether everyone just specs arms and doesnt care, or whether there is some basic math here that I do not understand. Anyways, there it is. I am a little tired at the moment and if I have dragged on or repeated myself or asked questions that have easily accessible answers that I was simply too lazy to find, I apologize. Similarly, I know questions about item choices are sometimes frowned on. My justification here is simply that the theory behind these item comparisons is interesting for some warriors that can extend the principles behind these item comparisons to their own gear and spec. 20/41 and 21/40 are fairly rare specs from what I have researched, so information is a little sparse. Also, I couldnt figure out how to tag items to show wowhead stats on mouseover, so please excuse the links =/. Thanks for reading -Color |
2) 2h Fury just isn't a strong build to begin with and there has been some theory on it just not sure where. Dropping rampage sort of already weakens the build before you start but it is definately an effort to keep up in low rage situations. Given a choice I would take DW over rampage too just for ease of use.
3) 4 piece tier 6 is very lackluster and not something I'd aim for unless the gear was going for cheap. The best set up seems to be tier 6 shoulders + one other, most likely chest. Stick a blue gem in the shoulders and one more in your belt and fill the rest up with str gems. Cursed vision of Sargeras, Silent Justice and Divine Retribution make up your other 3 slots. Would be hard pressed to find a better combination.
As for armour penetration its probably going to give you the biggest increase in dps over straight ap and at some point also crit. Also has the added benefit of the more you get the better it becomes.
4) As mikebro said, 9% hit is what you need for any 2hand spec. For dw its more but past 9% you lose half its value.
Hey, I just wanted to ask the DPS Warrior community a few questions regarding 2H MS (3/5 flurry) DPS.
Okay, so I know the general 2h DPS cycle is Auto--> Slam--> Instant... but since 2h rage generation is so volatile, I am very rarely able to follow a rigid cycle, like a DW Fury Warrior. I lack experience DPSing with a 2H, so I'd like to pose a situations where I am unsure as what the best course of action would be.
I use a Cataclysm's Edge (3.5 speed // 3.0 flurried)
1. [80 Rage] Auto Attack--> Slam--> Mortal Strike-->?
Swing Timer:_______________0_______1.5_______3.0
So I start off with 80 rage before the auto attack, and then I go through the DPS cycle once. At this point in time, I feel I have two options: Wait for an auto attack and slam, or Whirlwind and skip slam. I'm tempted to whirlwind because it doesn't reset my swing timer and I'm eager to put it on cooldown so I can use it again sooner. Should I wait for the auto attack or Whirlwind? Also, if I do whirlwind, should I still slam (swing timer should be at 1.5s since the last auto attack hit).
2. Auto Attack--> Slam-->? [30 rage]
In this scenario, I'm left with 30 rage 2/3 of the way into the cycle. I can either use mortal strike now and start a new cycle with 0 rage, or skip using an instant for this cycle and use it on the next cycle. I've found out that I seem to be able to slam sooner after an auto attack if I already I have >15 rage before the auto attack hits, rather than spamming slam while waiting for the rage from the auto attack.
3. Do you guys chain slam or use heroic strike when your rage is, or nearly is, full?
Okay, so I know the general 2h DPS cycle is Auto--> Slam--> Instant... but since 2h rage generation is so volatile, I am very rarely able to follow a rigid cycle, like a DW Fury Warrior. I lack experience DPSing with a 2H, so I'd like to pose a situations where I am unsure as what the best course of action would be.
I use a Cataclysm's Edge (3.5 speed // 3.0 flurried)
1. [80 Rage] Auto Attack--> Slam--> Mortal Strike-->?
Swing Timer:_______________0_______1.5_______3.0
So I start off with 80 rage before the auto attack, and then I go through the DPS cycle once. At this point in time, I feel I have two options: Wait for an auto attack and slam, or Whirlwind and skip slam. I'm tempted to whirlwind because it doesn't reset my swing timer and I'm eager to put it on cooldown so I can use it again sooner. Should I wait for the auto attack or Whirlwind? Also, if I do whirlwind, should I still slam (swing timer should be at 1.5s since the last auto attack hit).
2. Auto Attack--> Slam-->? [30 rage]
In this scenario, I'm left with 30 rage 2/3 of the way into the cycle. I can either use mortal strike now and start a new cycle with 0 rage, or skip using an instant for this cycle and use it on the next cycle. I've found out that I seem to be able to slam sooner after an auto attack if I already I have >15 rage before the auto attack hits, rather than spamming slam while waiting for the rage from the auto attack.
3. Do you guys chain slam or use heroic strike when your rage is, or nearly is, full?
Edited onPatch 2.3.0
I don't have a viable answer to your question, but, I'm wondering how you start out with 80 rage?
It seems like I'm pulled into combat by our MT, so that kills my charge. I don't have the rage to use Intercept, so i resort to hacking on the target with White attacks. Meanwhile, the Hunters and Rogues are going crazy on the DPS. I glance at Damage Meter and I have just a little more DPS than the tank does.
Crap.
I can always hit Bloodrage, which gives me an extra 10, which is enough to get my white hit started, but that seems like it.
It seems like I'm pulled into combat by our MT, so that kills my charge. I don't have the rage to use Intercept, so i resort to hacking on the target with White attacks. Meanwhile, the Hunters and Rogues are going crazy on the DPS. I glance at Damage Meter and I have just a little more DPS than the tank does.
Crap.
I can always hit Bloodrage, which gives me an extra 10, which is enough to get my white hit started, but that seems like it.
Last edited by Fezzick : 12/18/07 at 1:03 PM.
Oh, I guess I wasn't too clear about that, sorry.
I didn't mean for those situations to occur at the beginning of a fight. Think of them more like different instances you might find yourself in during a fight.
I didn't mean for those situations to occur at the beginning of a fight. Think of them more like different instances you might find yourself in during a fight.
Ahh, I thought I was doing something wrong (well, I probably still am)
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Originally Posted by ch3xmix
1. [80 Rage] Auto Attack--> Slam--> Mortal Strike-->? Swing Timer:_______________0_______1.5_______3.0 So I start off with 80 rage before the auto attack, and then I go through the DPS cycle once. At this point in time, I feel I have two options: Wait for an auto attack and slam, or Whirlwind and skip slam. I'm tempted to whirlwind because it doesn't reset my swing timer and I'm eager to put it on cooldown so I can use it again sooner. Should I wait for the auto attack or Whirlwind? Also, if I do whirlwind, should I still slam (swing timer should be at 1.5s since the last auto attack hit). |
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2. Auto Attack--> Slam-->? [30 rage] In this scenario, I'm left with 30 rage 2/3 of the way into the cycle. I can either use mortal strike now and start a new cycle with 0 rage, or skip using an instant for this cycle and use it on the next cycle. I've found out that I seem to be able to slam sooner after an auto attack if I already I have >15 rage before the auto attack hits, rather than spamming slam while waiting for the rage from the auto attack. |
| 3. Do you guys chain slam or use heroic strike when your rage is, or nearly is, full? |
When it comes to heroic strike, I find myself rarely using it as 33/28, except when I'm actually at 100 rage. While making sure the attack can't glance is nice, you lose out on 15 rage, plus whatever rage you would have gained from the white attack (20-40?). Hence the damage per rage conversion is atrocious (35-55 rage for ~200 more damage?), and more importantly, it can leave you in that #2 situation where you can't cast slam until the server registers your rage gain from a white attack.
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Originally Posted by ch3xmix
Hey, I just wanted to ask the DPS Warrior community a few questions regarding 2H MS (3/5 flurry) DPS.
1. [80 Rage] Auto Attack--> Slam--> Mortal Strike-->? Swing Timer:_______________0_______1.5_______3.0 So I start off with 80 rage before the auto attack, and then I go through the DPS cycle once. At this point in time, I feel I have two options: Wait for an auto attack and slam, or Whirlwind and skip slam. I'm tempted to whirlwind because it doesn't reset my swing timer and I'm eager to put it on cooldown so I can use it again sooner. Should I wait for the auto attack or Whirlwind? Also, if I do whirlwind, should I still slam (swing timer should be at 1.5s since the last auto attack hit). |
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Originally Posted by ch3xmix
2. Auto Attack--> Slam-->? [30 rage]
In this scenario, I'm left with 30 rage 2/3 of the way into the cycle. I can either use mortal strike now and start a new cycle with 0 rage, or skip using an instant for this cycle and use it on the next cycle. I've found out that I seem to be able to slam sooner after an auto attack if I already I have >15 rage before the auto attack hits, rather than spamming slam while waiting for the rage from the auto attack. |
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Originally Posted by ch3xmix
3. Do you guys chain slam or use heroic strike when your rage is, or nearly is, full?
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Originally Posted by Fezzick
It seems like I'm pulled into combat by our MT, so that kills my charge. I don't have the rage to use Intercept, so i resort to hacking on the target with White attacks. Meanwhile, the Hunters and Rogues are going crazy on the DPS. I glance at Damage Meter and I have just a little more DPS than the tank does.
Crap. I can always hit Bloodrage, which gives me an extra 10, which is enough to get my white hit started, but that seems like it. |
Why would you engage a raidboss by intercepting it, am I missing something essential here?
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Originally Posted by Dynalisia
Why would you engage a raidboss by intercepting it, am I missing something essential here?
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I could walk up to the boss, but that might take 3-5sec longer. In the meantime, white hits could be taking place.
The latency fix, that is going around, really helps Slam. 30ms are nice
Also, in any boss fights where you have to move around a lot, I do intervene -> intercept combos to get to the boss faster. One second of DPS more (even if it's white hits only because you have no rage) is far more DPS than saving up your rage.
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The faster you get to the boss, the faster you begin dps. 1 MH hit is going to more than cover the 10rage it took to arrive via Intercept. I could walk up to the boss, but that might take 3-5sec longer. In the meantime, white hits could be taking place. |
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Originally Posted by Zalein
Also, in any boss fights where you have to move around a lot, I do intervene -> intercept combos to get to the boss faster. One second of DPS more (even if it's white hits only because you have no rage) is far more DPS than saving up your rage.
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Originally Posted by Dynalisia
Wouldn't you say that starting the fight at a distance from the boss is more exception than the rule though? Most of the time a boss is MD'd to your tank, allowing you to position yourself right next to where it's going to be standing when the fighting begins.
Good point, Mother after getting FA'd is a good example I can think of where this is useful. |
As for the latency fix that's going around ....<3 <3 <3. Was getting really frustrated with sitting at around 150ms. I's hard to explain to others how much of a difference it makes.
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Originally Posted by Zalein
Also, in any boss fights where you have to move around a lot, I do intervene -> intercept combos to get to the boss faster. One second of DPS more (even if it's white hits only because you have no rage) is far more DPS than saving up your rage.
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Originally Posted by dr_AllCOM3
The latency fix, that is going around, really helps Slam. 30ms are nice
 |
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Originally Posted by Eledorian
I know it's a bit offtopic in regards to the thread, but could you explain. I've read nothing on this topic and I'm quite intrested in exactly what it means.
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Originally Posted by mikebro
This post: Server locations, Latency & Australia
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Originally Posted by Mjollnir
Just to be perfectly clear (yes this is off-topic but of great interest), this improves latency regardless of world location?
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Originally Posted by mikebro
The only problem I have with this is that they changed intervene a while ago so that if you have an enemy targeted when you press intervene, you will intervene the enemies target. Yup, I've definitely intervened the MT on Prince during an enfeeble and the tanks on Bog lords when trying to run out before. Luckily I haven't really found any place to attempt this short bus maneuver in MH/BT.
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Intercept works fine for it too man, so dont use intervene and risk it if you dont have to.
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Originally Posted by Lambach
Intercept works fine for it too man, so dont use intervene and risk it if you dont have to.
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He means Archimonde
| Intercept works fine for it too man, so dont use intervene and risk it if you dont have to. |
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Originally Posted by Mjollnir
Just to be perfectly clear (yes this is off-topic but of great interest), this improves latency regardless of world location?
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Edited onPatch 2.3.0
Never mind I'm not sure how to delete, but I think I figured out what I was looking for.
I'm not sure how to delete, but I think I figured out what I was looking for.Last edited by Amathal : 12/22/07 at 3:24 AM. Reason: I think I found what I was looking for.
Just to change direction a bit, what are you guys hoping for in terms of itemization from the Sunwell?
Personally, I'm hoping for more optional items rather than straight obvious upgrades. I do like big improvments to my gear but ive come to prefer the current tier6 versus random drop decisions were making at the moment. Keeping and swapping parts of my gear as I obtain new ones to balance stats has been quite interesting.
A 3-piece set per armour class would be quite nice to see. Perhaps belt boots and bracers similar to the pvp versions would be cool. Also I seem to remember there being a legendary ranged weapon coming in the Sunwell? Has there been any mention of what type or is it more of a chosen quest reward with totems, gun etc. If it were available to anyone who could use it, do you think guilds would still give priority to the Hunters first?
Personally, I'm hoping for more optional items rather than straight obvious upgrades. I do like big improvments to my gear but ive come to prefer the current tier6 versus random drop decisions were making at the moment. Keeping and swapping parts of my gear as I obtain new ones to balance stats has been quite interesting.
A 3-piece set per armour class would be quite nice to see. Perhaps belt boots and bracers similar to the pvp versions would be cool. Also I seem to remember there being a legendary ranged weapon coming in the Sunwell? Has there been any mention of what type or is it more of a chosen quest reward with totems, gun etc. If it were available to anyone who could use it, do you think guilds would still give priority to the Hunters first?
Well there are no Tier sets, which may or may not be a good thing.
Plate DPS gear will be auto-rewarded to your raiding DPS Warriors, so there's no line behind 2 other classes and your MT, which is always a good thing if the RNG gods are kind to you.
In terms of itemization, Armor pen is extremely hot at the moment for Warriors at the moment, I'd LOVE to see more of that, but there seems to be an unwritten rule about having Armor pen/haste in combination with other stats on gear.
Haste has fallen to the way-side, takes entirely too much of an item's budget and not enough bang for your buck unless it's in the form of a proc/use(Dragonstrike/DST/Warglaives, etc).
Weapons will be an area of interest to me, I just got the Vengeful Gladiator Fist weapons, and they're in every meaning of the word perfect, the only upgrade currently are the Warglaives. I expect to see 106 DPS 1-handers(109 from Kil'Jaeden), but itemization is always a big question mark =/ What are the chances of these weapons having a combo of hit/crit/ap/armor pen like the arena ones? Will they be slow? etc. I really do wish they would make a weapon token system for raiding, but forgive me I'm getting off topic.
I'd like to see an additional ring/neck/cloak with strength on it, so that there's a bit more Warrior/Kings synergy.
What I hope NOT to see is more plate armor with agility, another Black Temple exalted trinket fiasco, and a rep grind that's long and annoying for a ring when the instance gives only 3kish or so rep a week!
Fun random itemization would be nice too, PvP gloves reduce hamstring costs by 3 rage, would be nice to see something reduce rage or increase an ability's damage if there are no sets.
Plate DPS gear will be auto-rewarded to your raiding DPS Warriors, so there's no line behind 2 other classes and your MT, which is always a good thing if the RNG gods are kind to you.
In terms of itemization, Armor pen is extremely hot at the moment for Warriors at the moment, I'd LOVE to see more of that, but there seems to be an unwritten rule about having Armor pen/haste in combination with other stats on gear.
Haste has fallen to the way-side, takes entirely too much of an item's budget and not enough bang for your buck unless it's in the form of a proc/use(Dragonstrike/DST/Warglaives, etc).
Weapons will be an area of interest to me, I just got the Vengeful Gladiator Fist weapons, and they're in every meaning of the word perfect, the only upgrade currently are the Warglaives. I expect to see 106 DPS 1-handers(109 from Kil'Jaeden), but itemization is always a big question mark =/ What are the chances of these weapons having a combo of hit/crit/ap/armor pen like the arena ones? Will they be slow? etc. I really do wish they would make a weapon token system for raiding, but forgive me I'm getting off topic.
I'd like to see an additional ring/neck/cloak with strength on it, so that there's a bit more Warrior/Kings synergy.
What I hope NOT to see is more plate armor with agility, another Black Temple exalted trinket fiasco, and a rep grind that's long and annoying for a ring when the instance gives only 3kish or so rep a week!
Fun random itemization would be nice too, PvP gloves reduce hamstring costs by 3 rage, would be nice to see something reduce rage or increase an ability's damage if there are no sets.
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Originally Posted by Bevz
Just to change direction a bit, what are you guys hoping for in terms of itemization from the Sunwell?
Personally, I'm hoping for more optional items rather than straight obvious upgrades. I do like big improvments to my gear but ive come to prefer the current tier6 versus random drop decisions were making at the moment. Keeping and swapping parts of my gear as I obtain new ones to balance stats has been quite interesting. A 3-piece set per armour class would be quite nice to see. Perhaps belt boots and bracers similar to the pvp versions would be cool. Also I seem to remember there being a legendary ranged weapon coming in the Sunwell? Has there been any mention of what type or is it more of a chosen quest reward with totems, gun etc. If it were available to anyone who could use it, do you think guilds would still give priority to the Hunters first? |
Or a set of weapons would be nice, sort of like the warglaives are a set (without the weapons having legendary status ofcourse) you could create really nice looking weapons and give them a nice on proc bonus.
As far as the ranged weapon goes, I think it would be limited to hunters the same way the glaives are limited to warriors/rogue's. Even if it isn't I'd think a guild wouldn't have alot of hunters left if it gave the legendary hunter bow to a melee over a hunter
I hope to see Set: Gems in either Sunwell or Lich King.
No way. Trying to min/max gems and still meet meta requirements and useful bonuses can be a major pain as it is.
Orcracial Problem
first post, but long time reader.
can´t remeber reading on an issue like this, if this topic was discussed earlier in this thread i´m sorry.
playing an orc with an Axe provides me 5 Expertise.
When I equip a sword in MH and an Axe in OH the charscreen says that i have 5 Expertise.
Now the question is: Does it mind in which hand i put the Axe? So would it be better to use Dragonstrike (as the best pre-Warglaive-MH) for MH and Rising Tide for OH, to get those 5 Expertise?
Provides the Axeracial 5 Expertise for both weapons or not? I used 2 Axes in the past for the full racial bonus, but yesterday i played around with the Weapons in my Bank and this Question came up.
Thanks
can´t remeber reading on an issue like this, if this topic was discussed earlier in this thread i´m sorry.
playing an orc with an Axe provides me 5 Expertise.
When I equip a sword in MH and an Axe in OH the charscreen says that i have 5 Expertise.
Now the question is: Does it mind in which hand i put the Axe? So would it be better to use Dragonstrike (as the best pre-Warglaive-MH) for MH and Rising Tide for OH, to get those 5 Expertise?
Provides the Axeracial 5 Expertise for both weapons or not? I used 2 Axes in the past for the full racial bonus, but yesterday i played around with the Weapons in my Bank and this Question came up.
Thanks
The 5 expertise will apply to whichever hand you have an axe in. So if you are dual wielding axes, both get the bonus, but if you are only using an axe in your OH and something else in your MH, only your OH will get the bonus.
Sorry if this is below the scope of acceptable questions.
I'm a fury war and having a hard time deciding between an Amani Mask of Death or a Gladiator's Plate Helm. The only thing that's really confusing me is if the Meta is worth the loss of AP/Hit?
I'm a fury war and having a hard time deciding between an Amani Mask of Death or a Gladiator's Plate Helm. The only thing that's really confusing me is if the Meta is worth the loss of AP/Hit?
The warrior dps spreadsheet is a great place to check stuff like that, in general though I can't see myself using anything without a meta socket anymore
Sorry, when this was asked before.
Is the 10 Expertise with a Human Warrior wielding a Mace and a Sword in fact 10 Expertise (ergo, a bug), or still 5 Expertise for Mainhand and 5 Expertise for Offhand?
Thanks in advance.
Is the 10 Expertise with a Human Warrior wielding a Mace and a Sword in fact 10 Expertise (ergo, a bug), or still 5 Expertise for Mainhand and 5 Expertise for Offhand?
Thanks in advance.
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Originally Posted by Kaan
Sorry, when this was asked before.
Is the 10 Expertise with a Human Warrior wielding a Mace and a Sword in fact 10 Expertise (ergo, a bug), or still 5 Expertise for Mainhand and 5 Expertise for Offhand? Thanks in advance. |
Another question concerning tier 2 Fury talents.
In a 33/28 BF build, i have normally specced 2/5 Booming voice, 3/5 Imp. Demo shout since I read somewhere 3/5 is enough to reduce boss AP to zero.
However, I wonder how many talents you'd need in UB to ensure a rage point on each swing using 3.8 speed weapon.
Anyone knows this? Cant make the Spreadsheet work around it.
Tests by Rezarel showed that UBW has a 15 (3 per talent point) ppm mechanic (see post in the spreadsheet thread), not sure if this is included in the latest Excel version of the sheet (I think it is). A 3.8 sec weapon will hit 15.7 times per minute on average, so not even maxing out UBW will give you a certain proc at every hit.
3/5 Imp demo enough to reduce boss AP to zero? Sounds a bit fishy to me, do you have a trustworthy source for that?
3/5 Imp demo enough to reduce boss AP to zero? Sounds a bit fishy to me, do you have a trustworthy source for that?
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Originally Posted by Gruntle
Tests by Rezarel showed that UBW has a 15 (3 per talent point) ppm mechanic (see post in the spreadsheet thread), not sure if this is included in the latest Excel version of the sheet (I think it is). A 3.8 sec weapon will hit 15.7 times per minute on average, so not even maxing out UBW will give you a certain proc at every hit.
3/5 Imp demo enough to reduce boss AP to zero? Sounds a bit fishy to me, do you have a trustworthy source for that? |
However, if you use Curse of Recklessness, then the last 3 points become useful, and 5/5 imp demo + curse of recklessness is the same damage as just 2/5 imp demo, so you can put up CoR on all bosses without worrying about extra damage on the tank.
Aaah, thats it, Mogul. Seems I remembered only half the story
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Originally Posted by dr_AllCOM3
The latency fix, that is going around, really helps Slam. 30ms are nice
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Originally Posted by Eledorian
I know it's a bit offtopic in regards to the thread, but could you explain. I've read nothing on this topic and I'm quite intrested in exactly what it means.
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Originally Posted by mikebro
This post: Server locations, Latency & Australia
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Originally Posted by Mjollnir
Just to be perfectly clear (yes this is off-topic but of great interest), this improves latency regardless of world location?
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Originally Posted by mikebro
The only problem I have with this is that they changed intervene a while ago so that if you have an enemy targeted when you press intervene, you will intervene the enemies target. Yup, I've definitely intervened the MT on Prince during an enfeeble and the tanks on Bog lords when trying to run out before. Luckily I haven't really found any place to attempt this short bus maneuver in MH/BT.
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Intercept works fine for it too man, so dont use intervene and risk it if you dont have to.
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Originally Posted by Lambach
Intercept works fine for it too man, so dont use intervene and risk it if you dont have to.
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He means Archimonde
| Intercept works fine for it too man, so dont use intervene and risk it if you dont have to. |
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Originally Posted by Mjollnir
Just to be perfectly clear (yes this is off-topic but of great interest), this improves latency regardless of world location?
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Edited onPatch 2.3.0
Never mind I'm not sure how to delete, but I think I figured out what I was looking for.
I'm not sure how to delete, but I think I figured out what I was looking for.Last edited by Amathal : 12/22/07 at 3:24 AM. Reason: I think I found what I was looking for.
Just to change direction a bit, what are you guys hoping for in terms of itemization from the Sunwell?
Personally, I'm hoping for more optional items rather than straight obvious upgrades. I do like big improvments to my gear but ive come to prefer the current tier6 versus random drop decisions were making at the moment. Keeping and swapping parts of my gear as I obtain new ones to balance stats has been quite interesting.
A 3-piece set per armour class would be quite nice to see. Perhaps belt boots and bracers similar to the pvp versions would be cool. Also I seem to remember there being a legendary ranged weapon coming in the Sunwell? Has there been any mention of what type or is it more of a chosen quest reward with totems, gun etc. If it were available to anyone who could use it, do you think guilds would still give priority to the Hunters first?
Personally, I'm hoping for more optional items rather than straight obvious upgrades. I do like big improvments to my gear but ive come to prefer the current tier6 versus random drop decisions were making at the moment. Keeping and swapping parts of my gear as I obtain new ones to balance stats has been quite interesting.
A 3-piece set per armour class would be quite nice to see. Perhaps belt boots and bracers similar to the pvp versions would be cool. Also I seem to remember there being a legendary ranged weapon coming in the Sunwell? Has there been any mention of what type or is it more of a chosen quest reward with totems, gun etc. If it were available to anyone who could use it, do you think guilds would still give priority to the Hunters first?
Well there are no Tier sets, which may or may not be a good thing.
Plate DPS gear will be auto-rewarded to your raiding DPS Warriors, so there's no line behind 2 other classes and your MT, which is always a good thing if the RNG gods are kind to you.
In terms of itemization, Armor pen is extremely hot at the moment for Warriors at the moment, I'd LOVE to see more of that, but there seems to be an unwritten rule about having Armor pen/haste in combination with other stats on gear.
Haste has fallen to the way-side, takes entirely too much of an item's budget and not enough bang for your buck unless it's in the form of a proc/use(Dragonstrike/DST/Warglaives, etc).
Weapons will be an area of interest to me, I just got the Vengeful Gladiator Fist weapons, and they're in every meaning of the word perfect, the only upgrade currently are the Warglaives. I expect to see 106 DPS 1-handers(109 from Kil'Jaeden), but itemization is always a big question mark =/ What are the chances of these weapons having a combo of hit/crit/ap/armor pen like the arena ones? Will they be slow? etc. I really do wish they would make a weapon token system for raiding, but forgive me I'm getting off topic.
I'd like to see an additional ring/neck/cloak with strength on it, so that there's a bit more Warrior/Kings synergy.
What I hope NOT to see is more plate armor with agility, another Black Temple exalted trinket fiasco, and a rep grind that's long and annoying for a ring when the instance gives only 3kish or so rep a week!
Fun random itemization would be nice too, PvP gloves reduce hamstring costs by 3 rage, would be nice to see something reduce rage or increase an ability's damage if there are no sets.
Plate DPS gear will be auto-rewarded to your raiding DPS Warriors, so there's no line behind 2 other classes and your MT, which is always a good thing if the RNG gods are kind to you.
In terms of itemization, Armor pen is extremely hot at the moment for Warriors at the moment, I'd LOVE to see more of that, but there seems to be an unwritten rule about having Armor pen/haste in combination with other stats on gear.
Haste has fallen to the way-side, takes entirely too much of an item's budget and not enough bang for your buck unless it's in the form of a proc/use(Dragonstrike/DST/Warglaives, etc).
Weapons will be an area of interest to me, I just got the Vengeful Gladiator Fist weapons, and they're in every meaning of the word perfect, the only upgrade currently are the Warglaives. I expect to see 106 DPS 1-handers(109 from Kil'Jaeden), but itemization is always a big question mark =/ What are the chances of these weapons having a combo of hit/crit/ap/armor pen like the arena ones? Will they be slow? etc. I really do wish they would make a weapon token system for raiding, but forgive me I'm getting off topic.
I'd like to see an additional ring/neck/cloak with strength on it, so that there's a bit more Warrior/Kings synergy.
What I hope NOT to see is more plate armor with agility, another Black Temple exalted trinket fiasco, and a rep grind that's long and annoying for a ring when the instance gives only 3kish or so rep a week!
Fun random itemization would be nice too, PvP gloves reduce hamstring costs by 3 rage, would be nice to see something reduce rage or increase an ability's damage if there are no sets.
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Originally Posted by Bevz
Just to change direction a bit, what are you guys hoping for in terms of itemization from the Sunwell?
Personally, I'm hoping for more optional items rather than straight obvious upgrades. I do like big improvments to my gear but ive come to prefer the current tier6 versus random drop decisions were making at the moment. Keeping and swapping parts of my gear as I obtain new ones to balance stats has been quite interesting. A 3-piece set per armour class would be quite nice to see. Perhaps belt boots and bracers similar to the pvp versions would be cool. Also I seem to remember there being a legendary ranged weapon coming in the Sunwell? Has there been any mention of what type or is it more of a chosen quest reward with totems, gun etc. If it were available to anyone who could use it, do you think guilds would still give priority to the Hunters first? |
Or a set of weapons would be nice, sort of like the warglaives are a set (without the weapons having legendary status ofcourse) you could create really nice looking weapons and give them a nice on proc bonus.
As far as the ranged weapon goes, I think it would be limited to hunters the same way the glaives are limited to warriors/rogue's. Even if it isn't I'd think a guild wouldn't have alot of hunters left if it gave the legendary hunter bow to a melee over a hunter
I hope to see Set: Gems in either Sunwell or Lich King.
No way. Trying to min/max gems and still meet meta requirements and useful bonuses can be a major pain as it is.
Orcracial Problem
first post, but long time reader.
can´t remeber reading on an issue like this, if this topic was discussed earlier in this thread i´m sorry.
playing an orc with an Axe provides me 5 Expertise.
When I equip a sword in MH and an Axe in OH the charscreen says that i have 5 Expertise.
Now the question is: Does it mind in which hand i put the Axe? So would it be better to use Dragonstrike (as the best pre-Warglaive-MH) for MH and Rising Tide for OH, to get those 5 Expertise?
Provides the Axeracial 5 Expertise for both weapons or not? I used 2 Axes in the past for the full racial bonus, but yesterday i played around with the Weapons in my Bank and this Question came up.
Thanks
can´t remeber reading on an issue like this, if this topic was discussed earlier in this thread i´m sorry.
playing an orc with an Axe provides me 5 Expertise.
When I equip a sword in MH and an Axe in OH the charscreen says that i have 5 Expertise.
Now the question is: Does it mind in which hand i put the Axe? So would it be better to use Dragonstrike (as the best pre-Warglaive-MH) for MH and Rising Tide for OH, to get those 5 Expertise?
Provides the Axeracial 5 Expertise for both weapons or not? I used 2 Axes in the past for the full racial bonus, but yesterday i played around with the Weapons in my Bank and this Question came up.
Thanks
The 5 expertise will apply to whichever hand you have an axe in. So if you are dual wielding axes, both get the bonus, but if you are only using an axe in your OH and something else in your MH, only your OH will get the bonus.
Sorry if this is below the scope of acceptable questions.
I'm a fury war and having a hard time deciding between an Amani Mask of Death or a Gladiator's Plate Helm. The only thing that's really confusing me is if the Meta is worth the loss of AP/Hit?
I'm a fury war and having a hard time deciding between an Amani Mask of Death or a Gladiator's Plate Helm. The only thing that's really confusing me is if the Meta is worth the loss of AP/Hit?
The warrior dps spreadsheet is a great place to check stuff like that, in general though I can't see myself using anything without a meta socket anymore
Sorry, when this was asked before.
Is the 10 Expertise with a Human Warrior wielding a Mace and a Sword in fact 10 Expertise (ergo, a bug), or still 5 Expertise for Mainhand and 5 Expertise for Offhand?
Thanks in advance.
Is the 10 Expertise with a Human Warrior wielding a Mace and a Sword in fact 10 Expertise (ergo, a bug), or still 5 Expertise for Mainhand and 5 Expertise for Offhand?
Thanks in advance.
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Originally Posted by Kaan
Sorry, when this was asked before.
Is the 10 Expertise with a Human Warrior wielding a Mace and a Sword in fact 10 Expertise (ergo, a bug), or still 5 Expertise for Mainhand and 5 Expertise for Offhand? Thanks in advance. |
Another question concerning tier 2 Fury talents.
In a 33/28 BF build, i have normally specced 2/5 Booming voice, 3/5 Imp. Demo shout since I read somewhere 3/5 is enough to reduce boss AP to zero.
However, I wonder how many talents you'd need in UB to ensure a rage point on each swing using 3.8 speed weapon.
Anyone knows this? Cant make the Spreadsheet work around it.
Tests by Rezarel showed that UBW has a 15 (3 per talent point) ppm mechanic (see post in the spreadsheet thread), not sure if this is included in the latest Excel version of the sheet (I think it is). A 3.8 sec weapon will hit 15.7 times per minute on average, so not even maxing out UBW will give you a certain proc at every hit.
3/5 Imp demo enough to reduce boss AP to zero? Sounds a bit fishy to me, do you have a trustworthy source for that?
3/5 Imp demo enough to reduce boss AP to zero? Sounds a bit fishy to me, do you have a trustworthy source for that?
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Originally Posted by Gruntle
Tests by Rezarel showed that UBW has a 15 (3 per talent point) ppm mechanic (see post in the spreadsheet thread), not sure if this is included in the latest Excel version of the sheet (I think it is). A 3.8 sec weapon will hit 15.7 times per minute on average, so not even maxing out UBW will give you a certain proc at every hit.
3/5 Imp demo enough to reduce boss AP to zero? Sounds a bit fishy to me, do you have a trustworthy source for that? |
However, if you use Curse of Recklessness, then the last 3 points become useful, and 5/5 imp demo + curse of recklessness is the same damage as just 2/5 imp demo, so you can put up CoR on all bosses without worrying about extra damage on the tank.
Aaah, thats it, Mogul. Seems I remembered only half the story
Boss mobs have about 340ap + 135 CoR - 420 imp demo = 55ap = 2.4% of boss base melee damage.
Edited onPatch 2.3.2
back to Expertise
okay, so the human expertise stacks, but why should the expertise granted from an axe in the OH of an Orc not apply on the MH which is for example a sword.
Expertise is not only for one type of Weapon. It doesn´t matter whether i take a mace or a sword if i have ~20 Expertiserating on an other item. So why should there be any difference between expertise granted by Racial or by Itemstats.
If the Racial only adds Expertise on a hand in which an axe is, this would mean, that the Expertisecalculations for both hands are seperated, but i can´t believe this.
But if my thoughts are totally wrong, please tell me, and if possible with some clear tests or evidence.
Thanks
Expertise is not only for one type of Weapon. It doesn´t matter whether i take a mace or a sword if i have ~20 Expertiserating on an other item. So why should there be any difference between expertise granted by Racial or by Itemstats.
If the Racial only adds Expertise on a hand in which an axe is, this would mean, that the Expertisecalculations for both hands are seperated, but i can´t believe this.
But if my thoughts are totally wrong, please tell me, and if possible with some clear tests or evidence.
Thanks
Last edited by Langie : 01/09/08 at 9:44 AM.
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Originally Posted by Pitbuller
Boss mobs have about 340ap + 135 CoR - 420 imp demo = 55ap = 2.4% of boss base melee damage.
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Seems 5/5 Imp Demo is pointless in PvE if you're not running with CoR then. Weird that a talent quits being useful after 2 points spent (unless you combine it with another class ability). That can't really be working as intended. It has some use in pvp of course.
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Originally Posted by Gruntle
Thanks, Pitbuller and Moguul. Had no idea that was how it worked.
Seems 5/5 Imp Demo is pointless in PvE if you're not running with CoR then. Weird that a talent quits being useful after 2 points spent (unless you combine it with another class ability). That can't really be working as intended. It has some use in pvp of course. |
CoR is huge for physical DPS in a raid environment and well worth giving up UW for.
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Originally Posted by Langie
Expertise is not only for one type of Weapon. It doesn´t matter whether i take a mace or a sword if i have ~20 Expertiserating on an other item. So why should there be any difference between expertise granted by Racial or by Itemstats.
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Hello DPS warriors, I have a rather simple question.
Those of you with endgame DPS gear, and are 2H Arms DPS warriors in raids, what kind of raw-max-hit numbers are you putting up, on Gorefiend? (of course)
Like, highest listed MS, Slam, Heroic Strike, White, etc.
Gear level would be the standard Cata's Edge, with all the typical bells & whistles, assuming proper group buffs (enh shaman), and debuffs (CoR). At this point, I assume most people going for high damage numbers already have those things.
I've looked at a lot of WWS logs and see most of the highest end single-hits falling within the 4200-4800 range, with some obscure extreme anomalies, and wanted some input from a bigger audience!
Thanks
Those of you with endgame DPS gear, and are 2H Arms DPS warriors in raids, what kind of raw-max-hit numbers are you putting up, on Gorefiend? (of course)
Like, highest listed MS, Slam, Heroic Strike, White, etc.
Gear level would be the standard Cata's Edge, with all the typical bells & whistles, assuming proper group buffs (enh shaman), and debuffs (CoR). At this point, I assume most people going for high damage numbers already have those things.
I've looked at a lot of WWS logs and see most of the highest end single-hits falling within the 4200-4800 range, with some obscure extreme anomalies, and wanted some input from a bigger audience!
Thanks
Pretty much exactly what you said, biggest MS Ive seen is about 4700 no Survival hunter in the raid, 4900 with. I use mongoose on my Cats edge, no matter what people say I like the 4% crit chance more then the increase in damage executioner gives, and it has worked out very well, Wow Web Stats Thats a teron with no survival hunter, could have been better.
Wow, speak of the devil! You're exactly who I was wondering what was going on with, Cruor. Well, that and more. This is really going to go off on a tangent quick and I already have the answer which I assumed right on originally.
Cruorr - WWS
The now-infamous absurd-numbers Drow Gorefiend long. There you're listed as having individual hits close to 6k! This clears up that it's a horribly edited/bugged log, thanks
Cruorr - WWS
The now-infamous absurd-numbers Drow Gorefiend long. There you're listed as having individual hits close to 6k! This clears up that it's a horribly edited/bugged log, thanks
Edited onPatch 2.3.2
improving my dps
Hey Cruorr, could you provide some insight as to how you DPS?
Your damage breakdown seems to differ significantly from my own and I normally use a white->slam-> instant cycle. What I find really interesting though is your use of Heroic Strike. I have always believed it was too rage inefficient to be used as many times as you do. Are you rage capped for most of the fight because I noticed you have a very high percentages.
Here's a copy of my most recent Teron kill. I did really well cause I got lucky with crits.
Loading...
Your damage breakdown seems to differ significantly from my own and I normally use a white->slam-> instant cycle. What I find really interesting though is your use of Heroic Strike. I have always believed it was too rage inefficient to be used as many times as you do. Are you rage capped for most of the fight because I noticed you have a very high percentages.
Here's a copy of my most recent Teron kill. I did really well cause I got lucky with crits.
Loading...
Last edited by ch3xmix : 01/10/08 at 11:28 AM. Reason: added some stuff
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Originally Posted by Xaviera
Hello DPS warriors, I have a rather simple question.
Those of you with endgame DPS gear, and are 2H Arms DPS warriors in raids, what kind of raw-max-hit numbers are you putting up, on Gorefiend? (of course) Like, highest listed MS, Slam, Heroic Strike, White, etc. Gear level would be the standard Cata's Edge, with all the typical bells & whistles, assuming proper group buffs (enh shaman), and debuffs (CoR). At this point, I assume most people going for high damage numbers already have those things. I've looked at a lot of WWS logs and see most of the highest end single-hits falling within the 4200-4800 range, with some obscure extreme anomalies, and wanted some input from a bigger audience! Thanks |
Wondering what people think of 2x Executioner to improve the uptime on the enchant.
Would the increased uptime of Executioner outweigh the dps gain from potency?
Would the increased uptime of Executioner outweigh the dps gain from potency?
Yes, but only if you reach a certain amount of passive armor ignore. My first guess would be around 1500-2000.
1350 passive armor pen is about the most youll want for dual wield, otherwise youll push the armor below 0 and get a reduced effect from exec. i dont personally think it would be worth 2 exec ever, but im not a fury expert.
yesterday in BT with a 33/28 spec i got 2 5500-5560 MSs in a row with all my buffs up. also a 5300 and a 5400 before the big 2 (all the same fight within 30 seconds, reck was up so it was 4 crit ms in a row), orc racial, expose weakness and boss at 0 armor.
cruorr, i still dont understand you gaining 1400 dmg on your top ms crit from a 9% dmg buff and expose weakness/armor tho, there HAS to be something else. i belive rogue expose is like 400? pen over sunders? doesnt seem like thats quite enough, did you upgrade gear also? REALLY bad luck the previous 2 weeks?
yesterday in BT with a 33/28 spec i got 2 5500-5560 MSs in a row with all my buffs up. also a 5300 and a 5400 before the big 2 (all the same fight within 30 seconds, reck was up so it was 4 crit ms in a row), orc racial, expose weakness and boss at 0 armor.
cruorr, i still dont understand you gaining 1400 dmg on your top ms crit from a 9% dmg buff and expose weakness/armor tho, there HAS to be something else. i belive rogue expose is like 400? pen over sunders? doesnt seem like thats quite enough, did you upgrade gear also? REALLY bad luck the previous 2 weeks?
I have a lot of math in the executioner/mongoose thread.
Short version: using my current gear(420 passive Armor Pen) my spreadsheet gives the following
Assume: Executioner and Mongoose are 1.15 PPM as roughly shown in the Proc thread
MH Uptime: ~41.4%
OH Uptime: ~27.7%
DW Uptime: ~57.6%
So it comes down to if you would rather have that OH mongoose or an extra ~16% executioner uptime. DPS spreadsheets show that is about the same dps, so I would call personal preference. I like DW executioner because I plan on getting more Armor Pen and like smoother rage generation.
Short version: using my current gear(420 passive Armor Pen) my spreadsheet gives the following
Assume: Executioner and Mongoose are 1.15 PPM as roughly shown in the Proc thread
MH Uptime: ~41.4%
OH Uptime: ~27.7%
DW Uptime: ~57.6%
So it comes down to if you would rather have that OH mongoose or an extra ~16% executioner uptime. DPS spreadsheets show that is about the same dps, so I would call personal preference. I like DW executioner because I plan on getting more Armor Pen and like smoother rage generation.
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Originally Posted by Serida
1350 passive armor pen is about the most youll want for dual wield, otherwise youll push the armor below 0 and get a reduced effect from exec. i dont personally think it would be worth 2 exec ever, but im not a fury expert.
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On a typical raid boss of 6200 armor (Rage Winterchill, for example), with 520*5 armor reduced via sunders, 610 via faerie fire, and 800 via curse of recklessness (should you be so lucky), the remaining armor is 2190 and thus you are correct that more than (2190 - 840 = 1350) is the most passive armor pen you want to maximize the use of executioner...
Well 1350 is what I get
Low armor boss is 6200
5x Sunder = 2600
Faerie Fire = 610
Curse of Recklessness = 800
Executioner = 840
So the boss would have 1350 armor left before your gear. Now all those may not be always up, and there are bosses with more armor so the max is higher but 1350 is pretty high for passive armor pen as it is.
Low armor boss is 6200
5x Sunder = 2600
Faerie Fire = 610
Curse of Recklessness = 800
Executioner = 840
So the boss would have 1350 armor left before your gear. Now all those may not be always up, and there are bosses with more armor so the max is higher but 1350 is pretty high for passive armor pen as it is.
Edited onPatch 2.3.2
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Originally Posted by Xaviera
Wow, speak of the devil! You're exactly who I was wondering what was going on with, Cruor. Well, that and more. This is really going to go off on a tangent quick and I already have the answer which I assumed right on originally.
Cruorr - WWS The now-infamous absurd-numbers Drow Gorefiend long. There you're listed as having individual hits close to 6k! This clears up that it's a horribly edited/bugged log, thanks |
It is not bugged or edited. We got darkmoon buff + a survial hunter which we never had before. So I had 9% increased damage from darkmoon + survival hunter. We also had a feral druid tank and improved expose, which is 475 more armor reduction. We just wanted to have some fun and do some insane dps.
So 9% increased damage + 475 armor + 300 atp... Also, maybe i got the 5900 with the str pot.. so thats an extra 132 str (kings) aswell. All that can def push an ms from 4600 - 5900.
I hope to do a "normal" Teron next week finnaly with a survial hunter, and see what I do for dps. I had 2156 and 2130 (I think that the highest for a non darkmoon 33/28 warrior?) with 300 atp from expose weakness I hope for that to go up a lot.
As for my rotation, I do not have one, sorry. I do whatever on the spot. I HS when I have a lot of rage. I do not constantly slam because sometimes I feel its just good to let the swings go rather then slow em down by .6/.7 seconds with slam. I think I have found a good balance. I cant really give an explanation I just "feel" when to slam/ms/WW/HS and when not to.
Last edited by Cruor : 01/11/08 at 2:08 AM.
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Originally Posted by Cruor
As for my rotation, I do not have one, sorry. I do whatever on the spot. I HS when I have a lot of rage. I do not constantly slam because sometimes I feel its just good to let the swings go rather then slow em down by .6/.7 seconds with slam. I think I have found a good balance. I cant really give an explanation I just "feel" when to slam/ms/WW/HS and when not to.
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Originally Posted by Graul
That's pretty much what I end up doing, but not really consciously. I tried to keep a good slam rotation going when I tried raiding 33/28, but when DST, Flurry, Sword Spec, Windfury start doing back to back procs it just screws it up altogether. I ended up trying out Serida's no slamming at all method tonight through an SSC vial run and ended up doing pretty much the same as I did when using slams, but it was a lot less "work" to do. I'm sure on some fights I could have eeked out more DPS, but until they make slam "instant", there is always going to be the server/human delay factor that throws down DPS a little.
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Are you seeing these kinds of results (not slamming, or slamming when it "feels right" to slam instead of after every single swing), because you've hit some sort of gear threshold that causes a two-handed build to start performing exceptionally well? Or was I just Doing It Wrong(tm) when I tried an MS build?
My experiences with MS have generally had my sustained dps significantly lower than what I can do as Fury. I've read a lot in this thread that advises raids to favor 33/28 Blood Frenzy warriors as the first or only dps warrior in a raid, and I'm currently the only dps warrior in my raid. I also see WWS being posted with really high dps from two-handed warriors, and people saying that MS can do almost as much damage as Fury. Is this related to scaling, and only true in T6 content?
If I could switch to 33/28 sword and do "almost as much" damage as what I do now, my raid's dps would go up, we run pretty physical heavy. For some reason we have a lot of pretty good hunters. I wouldn't top the meter anymore but if if it helped the raid as a whole kill bosses faster/kill bosses we're currently struggling with, I'd be happy anyway.
So, I guess I'm asking, what's a realistic goal of personal dps for a 33/28 warrior using a sword (probably the Lionheart Champ or Executioner as it's the best, or one of the best, weapons readily available to me. S3 is out of the question, my arena teams aren't even close to 1850), in early T5 content? Assume here that I'm new to the slam rotation and that I'm a reasonably competent player and raider.
I wouldn't say its a stupid question, its just hard to answer, try looking for WWS of the same gear level/raid dps that feature MS warriors, compare how many skills they use compared to you etc.
I cant tell you the dps you should be doing. I can tell you that for MS Armor pen and high crit are very important. You arent going to see great numbers with out BT grade gear. A Windfury shaman is an absolute requirement, and a feral druid helps a lot. You learn a good rotation just by doing it over and over, and your dps will get better.
I am a human and in my character screen it only says 5 expertise whether i have a mace/sword in the MH or OH or both. Currently I am having trouble getting rid of the Talon of the Phoenix but it would help to know exactly how the racial is working. Can you really get 10 expertise from the racial? Do you have to use a sword and a mace? Does it work with two maces or two swords? I have The Rod of the Sun king and the Swiftsteel Bludgeon and i bet the 5 expertise would make up the slight loss from having a slow OH but i need someone who knows to catch me up. The spread sheet doesn't really help in this case b/c i am sure i am getting the racial bonus in both hands.
Edited onPatch 2.3.2
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Originally Posted by xtreat
I am a human and in my character screen it only says 5 expertise whether i have a mace/sword in the MH or OH or both. Currently I am having trouble getting rid of the Talon of the Phoenix but it would help to know exactly how the racial is working. Can you really get 10 expertise from the racial? Do you have to use a sword and a mace? Does it work with two maces or two swords? I have The Rod of the Sun king and the Swiftsteel Bludgeon and i bet the 5 expertise would make up the slight loss from having a slow OH but i need someone who knows to catch me up. The spread sheet doesn't really help in this case b/c i am sure i am getting the racial bonus in both hands.
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My gear consists of SSC/TK gear,some badge rewards and I dual wield the S1 honor Sword with Fool's Bane in my off hand. As a human, my character screen states 10 expertise. With weapon mastery, that should result in a -4.5% chance for opponents to dodge my attacks. I'm hit capped for specials (approx 130 hit rating with 3/3 precision) so the only chance for me to 'miss' a mob should be about 5.8% from the dodges.
So here's my damage breakdown from my guild's SSC run from a few days ago. Jojoba - WWS
All my misses came from dodges and parries (Which could probably have been avoided by slightly better positioning) and topped out at about 2%, 1% of which were dodges which seems to be as expected with 10 expertise.. Even though this is quite a small sample of hits, I'm sure it's indicative that the expertise racial bonuses from sword/mace combos on human warriors are stacking.
There is one other dual wielding fury warrior in my guild with about 200 hit rating and 0 precision and it's quite easy to see the difference in terms of misses on specials even on individual bosses (wws is harsh on him since he off tanked more encounters) and the comparable hit rate on white melee attacks.
I'm considering maxing out my expertise by getting the brooch of deftness (currently using Worgen Claw Necklace from KZ) as i can clearly see the benefits to my white hits as well as specials.
ps. any comments as to my damage breakdown as I'm still trying to learn how to maximise my DPS after changing roles from tanking would be appreciated.
Last edited by Jojoba : 01/12/08 at 12:36 AM.
Flurry Proc's? 2.6/2.6 or 2.7/2.6???
Okay I have a question for all you experts out there. I am currently using the Wicked Edge of the Planes (2.7spd,97.6 dps) in my main and Fury (2.6spd,95.6dps) in my Offhand. While doing ZA again, the Rage (2.6spd,95.6dps) dropped. I was wondering if equal spd weapons still proc'd an extra Flurry attack and if so, would it make sense to switch my main hand to the Rage to gain the extra Flurry attack at the cost of only 2dps on the main hand until I find a weapon with 2.7 spd and eaual if not better dps then Wicked Edge?
I also find that in events where I am on add duty (ex. Vashj a enhance shammy and I take care of Nagas) I like a fast offhand. I was using the Prowlers Blade last week when we finally down'd Vashj and no one wanted the Fang of Vashj (1.8spd,100.3dps) so I took it. Anyone else finding the fast offhand better in situations where they are changing targets a lot? Mainly because its tough to keep a good BT/WW rotation going when you have to run around a lot.
I also find that in events where I am on add duty (ex. Vashj a enhance shammy and I take care of Nagas) I like a fast offhand. I was using the Prowlers Blade last week when we finally down'd Vashj and no one wanted the Fang of Vashj (1.8spd,100.3dps) so I took it. Anyone else finding the fast offhand better in situations where they are changing targets a lot? Mainly because its tough to keep a good BT/WW rotation going when you have to run around a lot.
Edited onPatch 2.3.2
I'm pretty sure that the 10 expertise from using sword+mace as a human is not intended and will probably be fixed. That said 5 expertise is worth about 10 dps in my gear and using a spreadsheet (going from 1153 total dps to 1163). Whether this is more than what you get from using a slow weapon as offhand of course depends on which weapons you're comparing. If I compare using the S2 slow vs fast sword in OH I get a dps difference of about 12 in the same gear (but for the OH). The true dps gain from using a slow OH is probably somewhat less however, the spreadsheet does not model the effect of miss streaks on your rage generation -> cycle maintenance. Anyway, to me it seems that 5 expertise is worth about the same as slow-fast OH.
Havocdemon, the effect of using matched speed on flurry uptime has not been proven (at least not in the Flurry mechanics thread on these boards), if anyone has a link to some proper made tests on this I would be very interested. But as long as I haven't seen any hard evidence for this I don't believe this effect is real.
If it is a real effect I think the effect would be to add another proccing attack to the flurry uptime calculations (which would give something like 7-10% more flurry uptime for DW). This gives a dps increase on the order of 1% (in my gear, about 12 dps) using a spreadsheet. If I look at the spreadsheet results for Wicked edge vs Rage I get about 10 more total dps from Wicked edge.
Havocdemon, the effect of using matched speed on flurry uptime has not been proven (at least not in the Flurry mechanics thread on these boards), if anyone has a link to some proper made tests on this I would be very interested. But as long as I haven't seen any hard evidence for this I don't believe this effect is real.
If it is a real effect I think the effect would be to add another proccing attack to the flurry uptime calculations (which would give something like 7-10% more flurry uptime for DW). This gives a dps increase on the order of 1% (in my gear, about 12 dps) using a spreadsheet. If I look at the spreadsheet results for Wicked edge vs Rage I get about 10 more total dps from Wicked edge.
Last edited by Gruntle : 01/12/08 at 7:44 AM.
Boss mobs have about 340ap + 135 CoR - 420 imp demo = 55ap = 2.4% of boss base melee damage.
Edited onPatch 2.3.2
back to Expertise
okay, so the human expertise stacks, but why should the expertise granted from an axe in the OH of an Orc not apply on the MH which is for example a sword.
Expertise is not only for one type of Weapon. It doesn´t matter whether i take a mace or a sword if i have ~20 Expertiserating on an other item. So why should there be any difference between expertise granted by Racial or by Itemstats.
If the Racial only adds Expertise on a hand in which an axe is, this would mean, that the Expertisecalculations for both hands are seperated, but i can´t believe this.
But if my thoughts are totally wrong, please tell me, and if possible with some clear tests or evidence.
Thanks
Expertise is not only for one type of Weapon. It doesn´t matter whether i take a mace or a sword if i have ~20 Expertiserating on an other item. So why should there be any difference between expertise granted by Racial or by Itemstats.
If the Racial only adds Expertise on a hand in which an axe is, this would mean, that the Expertisecalculations for both hands are seperated, but i can´t believe this.
But if my thoughts are totally wrong, please tell me, and if possible with some clear tests or evidence.
Thanks
Last edited by Langie : 01/09/08 at 9:44 AM.
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Originally Posted by Pitbuller
Boss mobs have about 340ap + 135 CoR - 420 imp demo = 55ap = 2.4% of boss base melee damage.
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Seems 5/5 Imp Demo is pointless in PvE if you're not running with CoR then. Weird that a talent quits being useful after 2 points spent (unless you combine it with another class ability). That can't really be working as intended. It has some use in pvp of course.
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Originally Posted by Gruntle
Thanks, Pitbuller and Moguul. Had no idea that was how it worked.
Seems 5/5 Imp Demo is pointless in PvE if you're not running with CoR then. Weird that a talent quits being useful after 2 points spent (unless you combine it with another class ability). That can't really be working as intended. It has some use in pvp of course. |
CoR is huge for physical DPS in a raid environment and well worth giving up UW for.
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Originally Posted by Langie
Expertise is not only for one type of Weapon. It doesn´t matter whether i take a mace or a sword if i have ~20 Expertiserating on an other item. So why should there be any difference between expertise granted by Racial or by Itemstats.
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Hello DPS warriors, I have a rather simple question.
Those of you with endgame DPS gear, and are 2H Arms DPS warriors in raids, what kind of raw-max-hit numbers are you putting up, on Gorefiend? (of course)
Like, highest listed MS, Slam, Heroic Strike, White, etc.
Gear level would be the standard Cata's Edge, with all the typical bells & whistles, assuming proper group buffs (enh shaman), and debuffs (CoR). At this point, I assume most people going for high damage numbers already have those things.
I've looked at a lot of WWS logs and see most of the highest end single-hits falling within the 4200-4800 range, with some obscure extreme anomalies, and wanted some input from a bigger audience!
Thanks
Those of you with endgame DPS gear, and are 2H Arms DPS warriors in raids, what kind of raw-max-hit numbers are you putting up, on Gorefiend? (of course)
Like, highest listed MS, Slam, Heroic Strike, White, etc.
Gear level would be the standard Cata's Edge, with all the typical bells & whistles, assuming proper group buffs (enh shaman), and debuffs (CoR). At this point, I assume most people going for high damage numbers already have those things.
I've looked at a lot of WWS logs and see most of the highest end single-hits falling within the 4200-4800 range, with some obscure extreme anomalies, and wanted some input from a bigger audience!
Thanks
Pretty much exactly what you said, biggest MS Ive seen is about 4700 no Survival hunter in the raid, 4900 with. I use mongoose on my Cats edge, no matter what people say I like the 4% crit chance more then the increase in damage executioner gives, and it has worked out very well, Wow Web Stats Thats a teron with no survival hunter, could have been better.
Wow, speak of the devil! You're exactly who I was wondering what was going on with, Cruor. Well, that and more. This is really going to go off on a tangent quick and I already have the answer which I assumed right on originally.
Cruorr - WWS
The now-infamous absurd-numbers Drow Gorefiend long. There you're listed as having individual hits close to 6k! This clears up that it's a horribly edited/bugged log, thanks
Cruorr - WWS
The now-infamous absurd-numbers Drow Gorefiend long. There you're listed as having individual hits close to 6k! This clears up that it's a horribly edited/bugged log, thanks
Edited onPatch 2.3.2
improving my dps
Hey Cruorr, could you provide some insight as to how you DPS?
Your damage breakdown seems to differ significantly from my own and I normally use a white->slam-> instant cycle. What I find really interesting though is your use of Heroic Strike. I have always believed it was too rage inefficient to be used as many times as you do. Are you rage capped for most of the fight because I noticed you have a very high percentages.
Here's a copy of my most recent Teron kill. I did really well cause I got lucky with crits.
Loading...
Your damage breakdown seems to differ significantly from my own and I normally use a white->slam-> instant cycle. What I find really interesting though is your use of Heroic Strike. I have always believed it was too rage inefficient to be used as many times as you do. Are you rage capped for most of the fight because I noticed you have a very high percentages.
Here's a copy of my most recent Teron kill. I did really well cause I got lucky with crits.
Loading...
Last edited by ch3xmix : 01/10/08 at 11:28 AM. Reason: added some stuff
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Originally Posted by Xaviera
Hello DPS warriors, I have a rather simple question.
Those of you with endgame DPS gear, and are 2H Arms DPS warriors in raids, what kind of raw-max-hit numbers are you putting up, on Gorefiend? (of course) Like, highest listed MS, Slam, Heroic Strike, White, etc. Gear level would be the standard Cata's Edge, with all the typical bells & whistles, assuming proper group buffs (enh shaman), and debuffs (CoR). At this point, I assume most people going for high damage numbers already have those things. I've looked at a lot of WWS logs and see most of the highest end single-hits falling within the 4200-4800 range, with some obscure extreme anomalies, and wanted some input from a bigger audience! Thanks |
Wondering what people think of 2x Executioner to improve the uptime on the enchant.
Would the increased uptime of Executioner outweigh the dps gain from potency?
Would the increased uptime of Executioner outweigh the dps gain from potency?
Yes, but only if you reach a certain amount of passive armor ignore. My first guess would be around 1500-2000.
1350 passive armor pen is about the most youll want for dual wield, otherwise youll push the armor below 0 and get a reduced effect from exec. i dont personally think it would be worth 2 exec ever, but im not a fury expert.
yesterday in BT with a 33/28 spec i got 2 5500-5560 MSs in a row with all my buffs up. also a 5300 and a 5400 before the big 2 (all the same fight within 30 seconds, reck was up so it was 4 crit ms in a row), orc racial, expose weakness and boss at 0 armor.
cruorr, i still dont understand you gaining 1400 dmg on your top ms crit from a 9% dmg buff and expose weakness/armor tho, there HAS to be something else. i belive rogue expose is like 400? pen over sunders? doesnt seem like thats quite enough, did you upgrade gear also? REALLY bad luck the previous 2 weeks?
yesterday in BT with a 33/28 spec i got 2 5500-5560 MSs in a row with all my buffs up. also a 5300 and a 5400 before the big 2 (all the same fight within 30 seconds, reck was up so it was 4 crit ms in a row), orc racial, expose weakness and boss at 0 armor.
cruorr, i still dont understand you gaining 1400 dmg on your top ms crit from a 9% dmg buff and expose weakness/armor tho, there HAS to be something else. i belive rogue expose is like 400? pen over sunders? doesnt seem like thats quite enough, did you upgrade gear also? REALLY bad luck the previous 2 weeks?
I have a lot of math in the executioner/mongoose thread.
Short version: using my current gear(420 passive Armor Pen) my spreadsheet gives the following
Assume: Executioner and Mongoose are 1.15 PPM as roughly shown in the Proc thread
MH Uptime: ~41.4%
OH Uptime: ~27.7%
DW Uptime: ~57.6%
So it comes down to if you would rather have that OH mongoose or an extra ~16% executioner uptime. DPS spreadsheets show that is about the same dps, so I would call personal preference. I like DW executioner because I plan on getting more Armor Pen and like smoother rage generation.
Short version: using my current gear(420 passive Armor Pen) my spreadsheet gives the following
Assume: Executioner and Mongoose are 1.15 PPM as roughly shown in the Proc thread
MH Uptime: ~41.4%
OH Uptime: ~27.7%
DW Uptime: ~57.6%
So it comes down to if you would rather have that OH mongoose or an extra ~16% executioner uptime. DPS spreadsheets show that is about the same dps, so I would call personal preference. I like DW executioner because I plan on getting more Armor Pen and like smoother rage generation.
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Originally Posted by Serida
1350 passive armor pen is about the most youll want for dual wield, otherwise youll push the armor below 0 and get a reduced effect from exec. i dont personally think it would be worth 2 exec ever, but im not a fury expert.
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On a typical raid boss of 6200 armor (Rage Winterchill, for example), with 520*5 armor reduced via sunders, 610 via faerie fire, and 800 via curse of recklessness (should you be so lucky), the remaining armor is 2190 and thus you are correct that more than (2190 - 840 = 1350) is the most passive armor pen you want to maximize the use of executioner...
Well 1350 is what I get
Low armor boss is 6200
5x Sunder = 2600
Faerie Fire = 610
Curse of Recklessness = 800
Executioner = 840
So the boss would have 1350 armor left before your gear. Now all those may not be always up, and there are bosses with more armor so the max is higher but 1350 is pretty high for passive armor pen as it is.
Low armor boss is 6200
5x Sunder = 2600
Faerie Fire = 610
Curse of Recklessness = 800
Executioner = 840
So the boss would have 1350 armor left before your gear. Now all those may not be always up, and there are bosses with more armor so the max is higher but 1350 is pretty high for passive armor pen as it is.
Edited onPatch 2.3.2
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Originally Posted by Xaviera
Wow, speak of the devil! You're exactly who I was wondering what was going on with, Cruor. Well, that and more. This is really going to go off on a tangent quick and I already have the answer which I assumed right on originally.
Cruorr - WWS The now-infamous absurd-numbers Drow Gorefiend long. There you're listed as having individual hits close to 6k! This clears up that it's a horribly edited/bugged log, thanks |
It is not bugged or edited. We got darkmoon buff + a survial hunter which we never had before. So I had 9% increased damage from darkmoon + survival hunter. We also had a feral druid tank and improved expose, which is 475 more armor reduction. We just wanted to have some fun and do some insane dps.
So 9% increased damage + 475 armor + 300 atp... Also, maybe i got the 5900 with the str pot.. so thats an extra 132 str (kings) aswell. All that can def push an ms from 4600 - 5900.
I hope to do a "normal" Teron next week finnaly with a survial hunter, and see what I do for dps. I had 2156 and 2130 (I think that the highest for a non darkmoon 33/28 warrior?) with 300 atp from expose weakness I hope for that to go up a lot.
As for my rotation, I do not have one, sorry. I do whatever on the spot. I HS when I have a lot of rage. I do not constantly slam because sometimes I feel its just good to let the swings go rather then slow em down by .6/.7 seconds with slam. I think I have found a good balance. I cant really give an explanation I just "feel" when to slam/ms/WW/HS and when not to.
Last edited by Cruor : 01/11/08 at 2:08 AM.
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Originally Posted by Cruor
As for my rotation, I do not have one, sorry. I do whatever on the spot. I HS when I have a lot of rage. I do not constantly slam because sometimes I feel its just good to let the swings go rather then slow em down by .6/.7 seconds with slam. I think I have found a good balance. I cant really give an explanation I just "feel" when to slam/ms/WW/HS and when not to.
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Originally Posted by Graul
That's pretty much what I end up doing, but not really consciously. I tried to keep a good slam rotation going when I tried raiding 33/28, but when DST, Flurry, Sword Spec, Windfury start doing back to back procs it just screws it up altogether. I ended up trying out Serida's no slamming at all method tonight through an SSC vial run and ended up doing pretty much the same as I did when using slams, but it was a lot less "work" to do. I'm sure on some fights I could have eeked out more DPS, but until they make slam "instant", there is always going to be the server/human delay factor that throws down DPS a little.
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Are you seeing these kinds of results (not slamming, or slamming when it "feels right" to slam instead of after every single swing), because you've hit some sort of gear threshold that causes a two-handed build to start performing exceptionally well? Or was I just Doing It Wrong(tm) when I tried an MS build?
My experiences with MS have generally had my sustained dps significantly lower than what I can do as Fury. I've read a lot in this thread that advises raids to favor 33/28 Blood Frenzy warriors as the first or only dps warrior in a raid, and I'm currently the only dps warrior in my raid. I also see WWS being posted with really high dps from two-handed warriors, and people saying that MS can do almost as much damage as Fury. Is this related to scaling, and only true in T6 content?
If I could switch to 33/28 sword and do "almost as much" damage as what I do now, my raid's dps would go up, we run pretty physical heavy. For some reason we have a lot of pretty good hunters. I wouldn't top the meter anymore but if if it helped the raid as a whole kill bosses faster/kill bosses we're currently struggling with, I'd be happy anyway.
So, I guess I'm asking, what's a realistic goal of personal dps for a 33/28 warrior using a sword (probably the Lionheart Champ or Executioner as it's the best, or one of the best, weapons readily available to me. S3 is out of the question, my arena teams aren't even close to 1850), in early T5 content? Assume here that I'm new to the slam rotation and that I'm a reasonably competent player and raider.
I wouldn't say its a stupid question, its just hard to answer, try looking for WWS of the same gear level/raid dps that feature MS warriors, compare how many skills they use compared to you etc.
I cant tell you the dps you should be doing. I can tell you that for MS Armor pen and high crit are very important. You arent going to see great numbers with out BT grade gear. A Windfury shaman is an absolute requirement, and a feral druid helps a lot. You learn a good rotation just by doing it over and over, and your dps will get better.
I am a human and in my character screen it only says 5 expertise whether i have a mace/sword in the MH or OH or both. Currently I am having trouble getting rid of the Talon of the Phoenix but it would help to know exactly how the racial is working. Can you really get 10 expertise from the racial? Do you have to use a sword and a mace? Does it work with two maces or two swords? I have The Rod of the Sun king and the Swiftsteel Bludgeon and i bet the 5 expertise would make up the slight loss from having a slow OH but i need someone who knows to catch me up. The spread sheet doesn't really help in this case b/c i am sure i am getting the racial bonus in both hands.
Edited onPatch 2.3.2
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Originally Posted by xtreat
I am a human and in my character screen it only says 5 expertise whether i have a mace/sword in the MH or OH or both. Currently I am having trouble getting rid of the Talon of the Phoenix but it would help to know exactly how the racial is working. Can you really get 10 expertise from the racial? Do you have to use a sword and a mace? Does it work with two maces or two swords? I have The Rod of the Sun king and the Swiftsteel Bludgeon and i bet the 5 expertise would make up the slight loss from having a slow OH but i need someone who knows to catch me up. The spread sheet doesn't really help in this case b/c i am sure i am getting the racial bonus in both hands.
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My gear consists of SSC/TK gear,some badge rewards and I dual wield the S1 honor Sword with Fool's Bane in my off hand. As a human, my character screen states 10 expertise. With weapon mastery, that should result in a -4.5% chance for opponents to dodge my attacks. I'm hit capped for specials (approx 130 hit rating with 3/3 precision) so the only chance for me to 'miss' a mob should be about 5.8% from the dodges.
So here's my damage breakdown from my guild's SSC run from a few days ago. Jojoba - WWS
All my misses came from dodges and parries (Which could probably have been avoided by slightly better positioning) and topped out at about 2%, 1% of which were dodges which seems to be as expected with 10 expertise.. Even though this is quite a small sample of hits, I'm sure it's indicative that the expertise racial bonuses from sword/mace combos on human warriors are stacking.
There is one other dual wielding fury warrior in my guild with about 200 hit rating and 0 precision and it's quite easy to see the difference in terms of misses on specials even on individual bosses (wws is harsh on him since he off tanked more encounters) and the comparable hit rate on white melee attacks.
I'm considering maxing out my expertise by getting the brooch of deftness (currently using Worgen Claw Necklace from KZ) as i can clearly see the benefits to my white hits as well as specials.
ps. any comments as to my damage breakdown as I'm still trying to learn how to maximise my DPS after changing roles from tanking would be appreciated.
Last edited by Jojoba : 01/12/08 at 12:36 AM.
Flurry Proc's? 2.6/2.6 or 2.7/2.6???
Okay I have a question for all you experts out there. I am currently using the Wicked Edge of the Planes (2.7spd,97.6 dps) in my main and Fury (2.6spd,95.6dps) in my Offhand. While doing ZA again, the Rage (2.6spd,95.6dps) dropped. I was wondering if equal spd weapons still proc'd an extra Flurry attack and if so, would it make sense to switch my main hand to the Rage to gain the extra Flurry attack at the cost of only 2dps on the main hand until I find a weapon with 2.7 spd and eaual if not better dps then Wicked Edge?
I also find that in events where I am on add duty (ex. Vashj a enhance shammy and I take care of Nagas) I like a fast offhand. I was using the Prowlers Blade last week when we finally down'd Vashj and no one wanted the Fang of Vashj (1.8spd,100.3dps) so I took it. Anyone else finding the fast offhand better in situations where they are changing targets a lot? Mainly because its tough to keep a good BT/WW rotation going when you have to run around a lot.
I also find that in events where I am on add duty (ex. Vashj a enhance shammy and I take care of Nagas) I like a fast offhand. I was using the Prowlers Blade last week when we finally down'd Vashj and no one wanted the Fang of Vashj (1.8spd,100.3dps) so I took it. Anyone else finding the fast offhand better in situations where they are changing targets a lot? Mainly because its tough to keep a good BT/WW rotation going when you have to run around a lot.
Edited onPatch 2.3.2
I'm pretty sure that the 10 expertise from using sword+mace as a human is not intended and will probably be fixed. That said 5 expertise is worth about 10 dps in my gear and using a spreadsheet (going from 1153 total dps to 1163). Whether this is more than what you get from using a slow weapon as offhand of course depends on which weapons you're comparing. If I compare using the S2 slow vs fast sword in OH I get a dps difference of about 12 in the same gear (but for the OH). The true dps gain from using a slow OH is probably somewhat less however, the spreadsheet does not model the effect of miss streaks on your rage generation -> cycle maintenance. Anyway, to me it seems that 5 expertise is worth about the same as slow-fast OH.
Havocdemon, the effect of using matched speed on flurry uptime has not been proven (at least not in the Flurry mechanics thread on these boards), if anyone has a link to some proper made tests on this I would be very interested. But as long as I haven't seen any hard evidence for this I don't believe this effect is real.
If it is a real effect I think the effect would be to add another proccing attack to the flurry uptime calculations (which would give something like 7-10% more flurry uptime for DW). This gives a dps increase on the order of 1% (in my gear, about 12 dps) using a spreadsheet. If I look at the spreadsheet results for Wicked edge vs Rage I get about 10 more total dps from Wicked edge.
Havocdemon, the effect of using matched speed on flurry uptime has not been proven (at least not in the Flurry mechanics thread on these boards), if anyone has a link to some proper made tests on this I would be very interested. But as long as I haven't seen any hard evidence for this I don't believe this effect is real.
If it is a real effect I think the effect would be to add another proccing attack to the flurry uptime calculations (which would give something like 7-10% more flurry uptime for DW). This gives a dps increase on the order of 1% (in my gear, about 12 dps) using a spreadsheet. If I look at the spreadsheet results for Wicked edge vs Rage I get about 10 more total dps from Wicked edge.
Last edited by Gruntle : 01/12/08 at 7:44 AM.
Was it ever confirmed that the human racial actually gives 10 expertise, as opposed to a display bug?
For matched speed flurry I though it was shown to happen, but since flurry is up most of the time anyway, 1 parry screws it up, windfury uses charges, it really doesnt come out to making much difference.
For matched speed flurry I though it was shown to happen, but since flurry is up most of the time anyway, 1 parry screws it up, windfury uses charges, it really doesnt come out to making much difference.
Don't think anyone has made any tests of expertise to check whether it is a display bug or not, I haven't seen any anyway.
Well, for DW, flurry is normally up about 70-90% of the time, dependant on crit and weapon speed (for 2h the normal flurry uptime is close to 100%). Thus adding another 7-10% certainly makes a difference. But as you said, parry will screw it up, while I was running with matched weapon speeds I rarely saw the swings made simultaneously.
Well, for DW, flurry is normally up about 70-90% of the time, dependant on crit and weapon speed (for 2h the normal flurry uptime is close to 100%). Thus adding another 7-10% certainly makes a difference. But as you said, parry will screw it up, while I was running with matched weapon speeds I rarely saw the swings made simultaneously.
Apart from the WWS report I posted a few posts up (#2623) , what exactly would constitute a test to confirm that the human expertise racial bonuses are indeed stacking? While 1 full raid isn't that big a sample of hits, surely it should provide some degree of statistical accuracy to disprove that it is merely a display bug. If not, how much parsing would I have to do to prove this?
I would have thought that a miss rate of 1-2% on all specials consisting entirely of parrys and dodges would give people enough confidence to try out for themselves to see if sword and mace expertise do indeed stack.
In my opinion, it surely is worthwhile to play around with this 'feature' until Blizzard decide to rebalance the human racial bonuses for pve.
I would have thought that a miss rate of 1-2% on all specials consisting entirely of parrys and dodges would give people enough confidence to try out for themselves to see if sword and mace expertise do indeed stack.
In my opinion, it surely is worthwhile to play around with this 'feature' until Blizzard decide to rebalance the human racial bonuses for pve.
So how is it now with the human expertise ? If i have a mace and sword combination,(it should be 10 expr).doest it stack for both weapons (as 10expr) or i will have only 5 expr for mace and 5 expr for sword ? .
I think this is a very difficult question and the only way to proof this are long tests and WWS-comparisons. You have to check out the misses / dodges on bossmobs in many raids to even out the unlukcy and lucky tries, to say that you got 10 or only 5 expertise.
Tests in blasted should also show smaller numbers in parry but nevertheless we are talking off 1.25% miss/dodge / parry and so it will take very long testing to even the already mentioned luck out.
This is a similar problem with the Orc racial i asked some pages ago, whether an Orc will gain 5 exp on both hands or not if only wearing 1 axe. And noone could give me an answer which satisfied me.
I can´t image in which way the gamemechanic is able to seperate the expertise for the two weaponhands, so i believe, that humans actually gain 10 expertise if wearing 1 sword and 1 mace.
Tests in blasted should also show smaller numbers in parry but nevertheless we are talking off 1.25% miss/dodge / parry and so it will take very long testing to even the already mentioned luck out.
This is a similar problem with the Orc racial i asked some pages ago, whether an Orc will gain 5 exp on both hands or not if only wearing 1 axe. And noone could give me an answer which satisfied me.
I can´t image in which way the gamemechanic is able to seperate the expertise for the two weaponhands, so i believe, that humans actually gain 10 expertise if wearing 1 sword and 1 mace.
How close to eliminating dodges and parries is it currently possible to come by stacking expertise? I imagine one could test the stacking under the following conditions:
- Human Fury Warrior with a mace and sword equipped. +10 expertise if and only if the racial does stack, and therefore -2.5% chance to be dodged.
- Two points in Weapon Mastery, working out to a flat -2% chance to be dodged.
- Three points in Defiance, giving + 6 expertise, and therefore -1.5% chance to be dodged.
Unless I've made some huge mistake, that's -6% chance to be dodged if they actually stack, but only -4.75% if they don't. I believe that boss mobs have a 5.6% chance to dodge, so you could parse a bunch of boss fights and see if you got any dodges with this set-up.
However, there are a few potential problems. The 5.6% number may be incorrect (I pulled it from a forum search, and the post I found the number in had doubts as to whether it is current). Or there could be a cap on expertise, or a base chance to be dodged that cannot be overwritten by expertise (which amounts to the same thing).
- Human Fury Warrior with a mace and sword equipped. +10 expertise if and only if the racial does stack, and therefore -2.5% chance to be dodged.
- Two points in Weapon Mastery, working out to a flat -2% chance to be dodged.
- Three points in Defiance, giving + 6 expertise, and therefore -1.5% chance to be dodged.
Unless I've made some huge mistake, that's -6% chance to be dodged if they actually stack, but only -4.75% if they don't. I believe that boss mobs have a 5.6% chance to dodge, so you could parse a bunch of boss fights and see if you got any dodges with this set-up.
However, there are a few potential problems. The 5.6% number may be incorrect (I pulled it from a forum search, and the post I found the number in had doubts as to whether it is current). Or there could be a cap on expertise, or a base chance to be dodged that cannot be overwritten by expertise (which amounts to the same thing).
Well, as far as expertise goes, I dont have any WWS reports but Ive run recount over a full BT/HYJAL clear with something like 15 million total damage done and the % of my dodged attacks was ~.8 for white attacks and ~.7% for specials. I was using a sword/mace combo for 10 expertise and I have the weapon mastery talent for a total of -4.5% dodge reduction.
madrussian, could you perhaps post the total numbers of swings and dodges? Would make it possible to calculate some statistics.
WW/cleave/bt damage all have .7% dodge rate too.
|
Originally Posted by Cruor
I cant tell you the dps you should be doing. I can tell you that for MS Armor pen and high crit are very important. You arent going to see great numbers with out BT grade gear. A Windfury shaman is an absolute requirement, and a feral druid helps a lot. You learn a good rotation just by doing it over and over, and your dps will get better.
|
I wasn't doing quite as much as I'm used to, but I got a feel for timing my slams pretty quickly, and my damage was respectable. And it was kinda fun, or at least less of a chore than I was afraid it would be.
Thank you for your feedback, it was helpful!
Edited onPatch 2.3.2
|
Originally Posted by madrussian
WW/cleave/bt damage all have .7% dodge rate too. |
[0.57,1.09] + 4.5 = [5.07,5.59] with 95% confidence.
Maybe slightly higher if we take casting bosses into account (not dodging while casting), but I don't know how many of those there are in BT/Hyjal. This would make the figures more inline with the canonical 5.6 chance.
Anyway, it seems fairly likely that the racial bonus expertise for a sword/mace combo is actually 10, the dodge rate should have been way higher if this was not the case (or the dodge chances of bosses a lot less than 5.6).
edit: the dodge rates here are for both bosses and trash in BT/Hyjal, since trash have lower dodge chance (5, 5.2, 5.4 depending on lvl) that is probably the main reason why the dodge chance is lower than the expected 5.6.
Last edited by Gruntle : 01/17/08 at 6:25 AM.
With over 7 million damage in the parse surely most of it is trash, calculating boss dodge rate from that might not be the best of ideas .)
I´ve got a wws of me from yesterdays BT-Raid using Axe (Rising Tide) MH + Sword (Talon of Azshara) OH. If you compare mine with the one of the other Warrior called "Highmighty" (also Orc but using 2 Axes (Rising + S3)) wws, you will recognize, that Highmighty got more dodges than me (his 2.59% mine 2.24%). (Only Whitedmg)
The dodge chance seems to be very high because even bosssmobs schould only have 2.35% chance to dodge.
But it really seems, that the Expertise from the racial could not be seperated.
I will run another test tonight vs. the rest of BT using the Sword in MH so the styles will be affected by the chance to dodge too. (I´ll install recount this day for more evidence)
The dodge chance seems to be very high because even bosssmobs schould only have 2.35% chance to dodge.
But it really seems, that the Expertise from the racial could not be seperated.
I will run another test tonight vs. the rest of BT using the Sword in MH so the styles will be affected by the chance to dodge too. (I´ll install recount this day for more evidence)
|
Originally Posted by Dulak
With over 7 million damage in the parse surely most of it is trash, calculating boss dodge rate from that might not be the best of ideas .)
|
|
Originally Posted by Gruntle
True, didn't realise that trash was included in those swings (trash dodge should be 5.2 and 5.4 I guess). Probably the main reason why base dodge is a bit too low. Will edit my post. Anyway I think the figures still prove that racial expertise for MH OH do stack (it's not just a display bug), if they were not stacking the observed dodge rate should have been ~1.5 (even if trash is included).
|
Well, I'm not sure but double swords/maces/axes only show 5 expertise on the char sheet I think?
Hehe, I'm running with a 0/47/14 build nowadays and I enjoy it a lot. I'm no where near endgame (my raid group has just started in SSC), but my dps is basically the same after respeccing. Theorycrafting gives a dps decrease of about 5% for this spec cf to 17/44 but I couldn't really tell (since I'm getting upgrades all the time and have different buffs at every raid). My PvE survivability definitely went up and PvP is certainly easier with TM and Last stand.
Hehe, I'm running with a 0/47/14 build nowadays and I enjoy it a lot. I'm no where near endgame (my raid group has just started in SSC), but my dps is basically the same after respeccing. Theorycrafting gives a dps decrease of about 5% for this spec cf to 17/44 but I couldn't really tell (since I'm getting upgrades all the time and have different buffs at every raid). My PvE survivability definitely went up and PvP is certainly easier with TM and Last stand.
|
Originally Posted by Gruntle
Well, I'm not sure but double swords/maces/axes only show 5 expertise on the char sheet I think?
.... |
It also shows 5 expertise if you only wield one Weapon of the type you get the racialbonus e.g. Swords + Axe.
And the Hand where the weapon is doesn´t matter. Axe in OH Sword in MH --> 5 Expertise @Orccharscreen
|
Originally Posted by Graul
... And has anyone tried running with a DW build that incorporates Defiance?
|
I've been searching around from many places for some test results to see the real difference with slow and fast offhand, but I haven't found any yet. Maybe I'm just bad at googling and searching, but I'm hoping to find the answer from here.
Currently I'm using merciless gladiator's bonecracker (1.5) speed, but I've thought about taking either talon of azshara, rod of the sun king or s2 sword (2.6) speed for offhand. As mainhand Im using dragonstrike.
My stats are following (completely unbuffed in zerg stance):
1974ap
191 hit rating (12.11% to hit + 3% from talents)
30.78% chance to crit
MH: Dragonstrike (2.7 speed)
OH: Merciless gladiator's bonecracker (1.5 speed)
VS
Talon of azshara (2.7 speed)
Merciless gladiator's pummeler/slicer (2.6 speed)
I'd gain slightly more ap and hit from talon of azshara, but my crit would drop a bit. Not hard to change with gems though.
Note: I do not have excel so I am not able to open spreadsheets in xls form.
Currently I'm using merciless gladiator's bonecracker (1.5) speed, but I've thought about taking either talon of azshara, rod of the sun king or s2 sword (2.6) speed for offhand. As mainhand Im using dragonstrike.
My stats are following (completely unbuffed in zerg stance):
1974ap
191 hit rating (12.11% to hit + 3% from talents)
30.78% chance to crit
MH: Dragonstrike (2.7 speed)
OH: Merciless gladiator's bonecracker (1.5 speed)
VS
Talon of azshara (2.7 speed)
Merciless gladiator's pummeler/slicer (2.6 speed)
I'd gain slightly more ap and hit from talon of azshara, but my crit would drop a bit. Not hard to change with gems though.
Note: I do not have excel so I am not able to open spreadsheets in xls form.
|
Originally Posted by mogun
I ran a 3/44/14 build last week. Personally I like it more then classical 17/44. The dmg output is at least the same plus you get the benefit of last stand, tactical mastery, extra threat from defiance so you can OT quite decent if needed (I was OT for council, Illidan's adds). Here is the WWS with that build.
|
It's basically impale vs defiance in terms of dps talents, impale is a 20% increase in damage for ~33% of your attacks, vs defiance, which is a flat 1.5% increase in damage for all your attacks (when attacking from behind).
|
Originally Posted by rayijin
The damage output is slightly lower, somewhere around 5% the last time I spreadsheeted it with my current gear.
It's basically impale vs defiance in terms of dps talents, impale is a 20% increase in damage for ~33% of your attacks, vs defiance, which is a flat 1.5% increase in damage for all your attacks (when attacking from behind). |
|
Originally Posted by rayijin
The damage output is slightly lower, somewhere around 5% the last time I spreadsheeted it with my current gear.
It's basically impale vs defiance in terms of dps talents, impale is a 20% increase in damage for ~33% of your attacks, vs defiance, which is a flat 1.5% increase in damage for all your attacks (when attacking from behind). |
Further, I don't see why tanking without the 5% parry and without improved TC would be better with a 3/44/14 build. The aggro would be higher, everything else, worser, thats all. And 5% parry often can help more than Last Stand, which is a 8 min cooldown and not a passive increase in defense.
So my opinion is, 17/44 is still superior...
|
Originally Posted by Graul
I thought Impale increased the overall damage of critical specials by 10%.
|
| two points makes yellow critical strikes hit for +120%, or 220% of normal damage. 220% (2/2 Impale) / 200% (No Impale) = 10% boost for two points, or 5% per point. |
I thought about including Deep Wounds as +2% for 2h and +1% for DW. Always forgot about it.
|
Originally Posted by Kaan
Plus deep wounds which often is 2-3% of the damage overall dealt. And you lose Anger Management which often is helpful.
Further, I don't see why tanking without the 5% parry and without improved TC would be better with a 3/44/14 build. The aggro would be higher, everything else, worser, thats all. And 5% parry often can help more than Last Stand, which is a 8 min cooldown and not a passive increase in defense. So my opinion is, 17/44 is still superior... |
Was it ever confirmed that the human racial actually gives 10 expertise, as opposed to a display bug?
For matched speed flurry I though it was shown to happen, but since flurry is up most of the time anyway, 1 parry screws it up, windfury uses charges, it really doesnt come out to making much difference.
For matched speed flurry I though it was shown to happen, but since flurry is up most of the time anyway, 1 parry screws it up, windfury uses charges, it really doesnt come out to making much difference.
Don't think anyone has made any tests of expertise to check whether it is a display bug or not, I haven't seen any anyway.
Well, for DW, flurry is normally up about 70-90% of the time, dependant on crit and weapon speed (for 2h the normal flurry uptime is close to 100%). Thus adding another 7-10% certainly makes a difference. But as you said, parry will screw it up, while I was running with matched weapon speeds I rarely saw the swings made simultaneously.
Well, for DW, flurry is normally up about 70-90% of the time, dependant on crit and weapon speed (for 2h the normal flurry uptime is close to 100%). Thus adding another 7-10% certainly makes a difference. But as you said, parry will screw it up, while I was running with matched weapon speeds I rarely saw the swings made simultaneously.
Apart from the WWS report I posted a few posts up (#2623) , what exactly would constitute a test to confirm that the human expertise racial bonuses are indeed stacking? While 1 full raid isn't that big a sample of hits, surely it should provide some degree of statistical accuracy to disprove that it is merely a display bug. If not, how much parsing would I have to do to prove this?
I would have thought that a miss rate of 1-2% on all specials consisting entirely of parrys and dodges would give people enough confidence to try out for themselves to see if sword and mace expertise do indeed stack.
In my opinion, it surely is worthwhile to play around with this 'feature' until Blizzard decide to rebalance the human racial bonuses for pve.
I would have thought that a miss rate of 1-2% on all specials consisting entirely of parrys and dodges would give people enough confidence to try out for themselves to see if sword and mace expertise do indeed stack.
In my opinion, it surely is worthwhile to play around with this 'feature' until Blizzard decide to rebalance the human racial bonuses for pve.
So how is it now with the human expertise ? If i have a mace and sword combination,(it should be 10 expr).doest it stack for both weapons (as 10expr) or i will have only 5 expr for mace and 5 expr for sword ? .
I think this is a very difficult question and the only way to proof this are long tests and WWS-comparisons. You have to check out the misses / dodges on bossmobs in many raids to even out the unlukcy and lucky tries, to say that you got 10 or only 5 expertise.
Tests in blasted should also show smaller numbers in parry but nevertheless we are talking off 1.25% miss/dodge / parry and so it will take very long testing to even the already mentioned luck out.
This is a similar problem with the Orc racial i asked some pages ago, whether an Orc will gain 5 exp on both hands or not if only wearing 1 axe. And noone could give me an answer which satisfied me.
I can´t image in which way the gamemechanic is able to seperate the expertise for the two weaponhands, so i believe, that humans actually gain 10 expertise if wearing 1 sword and 1 mace.
Tests in blasted should also show smaller numbers in parry but nevertheless we are talking off 1.25% miss/dodge / parry and so it will take very long testing to even the already mentioned luck out.
This is a similar problem with the Orc racial i asked some pages ago, whether an Orc will gain 5 exp on both hands or not if only wearing 1 axe. And noone could give me an answer which satisfied me.
I can´t image in which way the gamemechanic is able to seperate the expertise for the two weaponhands, so i believe, that humans actually gain 10 expertise if wearing 1 sword and 1 mace.
How close to eliminating dodges and parries is it currently possible to come by stacking expertise? I imagine one could test the stacking under the following conditions:
- Human Fury Warrior with a mace and sword equipped. +10 expertise if and only if the racial does stack, and therefore -2.5% chance to be dodged.
- Two points in Weapon Mastery, working out to a flat -2% chance to be dodged.
- Three points in Defiance, giving + 6 expertise, and therefore -1.5% chance to be dodged.
Unless I've made some huge mistake, that's -6% chance to be dodged if they actually stack, but only -4.75% if they don't. I believe that boss mobs have a 5.6% chance to dodge, so you could parse a bunch of boss fights and see if you got any dodges with this set-up.
However, there are a few potential problems. The 5.6% number may be incorrect (I pulled it from a forum search, and the post I found the number in had doubts as to whether it is current). Or there could be a cap on expertise, or a base chance to be dodged that cannot be overwritten by expertise (which amounts to the same thing).
- Human Fury Warrior with a mace and sword equipped. +10 expertise if and only if the racial does stack, and therefore -2.5% chance to be dodged.
- Two points in Weapon Mastery, working out to a flat -2% chance to be dodged.
- Three points in Defiance, giving + 6 expertise, and therefore -1.5% chance to be dodged.
Unless I've made some huge mistake, that's -6% chance to be dodged if they actually stack, but only -4.75% if they don't. I believe that boss mobs have a 5.6% chance to dodge, so you could parse a bunch of boss fights and see if you got any dodges with this set-up.
However, there are a few potential problems. The 5.6% number may be incorrect (I pulled it from a forum search, and the post I found the number in had doubts as to whether it is current). Or there could be a cap on expertise, or a base chance to be dodged that cannot be overwritten by expertise (which amounts to the same thing).
Well, as far as expertise goes, I dont have any WWS reports but Ive run recount over a full BT/HYJAL clear with something like 15 million total damage done and the % of my dodged attacks was ~.8 for white attacks and ~.7% for specials. I was using a sword/mace combo for 10 expertise and I have the weapon mastery talent for a total of -4.5% dodge reduction.
madrussian, could you perhaps post the total numbers of swings and dodges? Would make it possible to calculate some statistics.
WW/cleave/bt damage all have .7% dodge rate too.
|
Originally Posted by Cruor
I cant tell you the dps you should be doing. I can tell you that for MS Armor pen and high crit are very important. You arent going to see great numbers with out BT grade gear. A Windfury shaman is an absolute requirement, and a feral druid helps a lot. You learn a good rotation just by doing it over and over, and your dps will get better.
|
I wasn't doing quite as much as I'm used to, but I got a feel for timing my slams pretty quickly, and my damage was respectable. And it was kinda fun, or at least less of a chore than I was afraid it would be.
Thank you for your feedback, it was helpful!
Edited onPatch 2.3.2
|
Originally Posted by madrussian
WW/cleave/bt damage all have .7% dodge rate too. |
[0.57,1.09] + 4.5 = [5.07,5.59] with 95% confidence.
Maybe slightly higher if we take casting bosses into account (not dodging while casting), but I don't know how many of those there are in BT/Hyjal. This would make the figures more inline with the canonical 5.6 chance.
Anyway, it seems fairly likely that the racial bonus expertise for a sword/mace combo is actually 10, the dodge rate should have been way higher if this was not the case (or the dodge chances of bosses a lot less than 5.6).
edit: the dodge rates here are for both bosses and trash in BT/Hyjal, since trash have lower dodge chance (5, 5.2, 5.4 depending on lvl) that is probably the main reason why the dodge chance is lower than the expected 5.6.
Last edited by Gruntle : 01/17/08 at 6:25 AM.
With over 7 million damage in the parse surely most of it is trash, calculating boss dodge rate from that might not be the best of ideas .)
I´ve got a wws of me from yesterdays BT-Raid using Axe (Rising Tide) MH + Sword (Talon of Azshara) OH. If you compare mine with the one of the other Warrior called "Highmighty" (also Orc but using 2 Axes (Rising + S3)) wws, you will recognize, that Highmighty got more dodges than me (his 2.59% mine 2.24%). (Only Whitedmg)
The dodge chance seems to be very high because even bosssmobs schould only have 2.35% chance to dodge.
But it really seems, that the Expertise from the racial could not be seperated.
I will run another test tonight vs. the rest of BT using the Sword in MH so the styles will be affected by the chance to dodge too. (I´ll install recount this day for more evidence)
The dodge chance seems to be very high because even bosssmobs schould only have 2.35% chance to dodge.
But it really seems, that the Expertise from the racial could not be seperated.
I will run another test tonight vs. the rest of BT using the Sword in MH so the styles will be affected by the chance to dodge too. (I´ll install recount this day for more evidence)
|
Originally Posted by Dulak
With over 7 million damage in the parse surely most of it is trash, calculating boss dodge rate from that might not be the best of ideas .)
|
|
Originally Posted by Gruntle
True, didn't realise that trash was included in those swings (trash dodge should be 5.2 and 5.4 I guess). Probably the main reason why base dodge is a bit too low. Will edit my post. Anyway I think the figures still prove that racial expertise for MH OH do stack (it's not just a display bug), if they were not stacking the observed dodge rate should have been ~1.5 (even if trash is included).
|
Well, I'm not sure but double swords/maces/axes only show 5 expertise on the char sheet I think?
Hehe, I'm running with a 0/47/14 build nowadays and I enjoy it a lot. I'm no where near endgame (my raid group has just started in SSC), but my dps is basically the same after respeccing. Theorycrafting gives a dps decrease of about 5% for this spec cf to 17/44 but I couldn't really tell (since I'm getting upgrades all the time and have different buffs at every raid). My PvE survivability definitely went up and PvP is certainly easier with TM and Last stand.
Hehe, I'm running with a 0/47/14 build nowadays and I enjoy it a lot. I'm no where near endgame (my raid group has just started in SSC), but my dps is basically the same after respeccing. Theorycrafting gives a dps decrease of about 5% for this spec cf to 17/44 but I couldn't really tell (since I'm getting upgrades all the time and have different buffs at every raid). My PvE survivability definitely went up and PvP is certainly easier with TM and Last stand.
|
Originally Posted by Gruntle
Well, I'm not sure but double swords/maces/axes only show 5 expertise on the char sheet I think?
.... |
It also shows 5 expertise if you only wield one Weapon of the type you get the racialbonus e.g. Swords + Axe.
And the Hand where the weapon is doesn´t matter. Axe in OH Sword in MH --> 5 Expertise @Orccharscreen
|
Originally Posted by Graul
... And has anyone tried running with a DW build that incorporates Defiance?
|
I've been searching around from many places for some test results to see the real difference with slow and fast offhand, but I haven't found any yet. Maybe I'm just bad at googling and searching, but I'm hoping to find the answer from here.
Currently I'm using merciless gladiator's bonecracker (1.5) speed, but I've thought about taking either talon of azshara, rod of the sun king or s2 sword (2.6) speed for offhand. As mainhand Im using dragonstrike.
My stats are following (completely unbuffed in zerg stance):
1974ap
191 hit rating (12.11% to hit + 3% from talents)
30.78% chance to crit
MH: Dragonstrike (2.7 speed)
OH: Merciless gladiator's bonecracker (1.5 speed)
VS
Talon of azshara (2.7 speed)
Merciless gladiator's pummeler/slicer (2.6 speed)
I'd gain slightly more ap and hit from talon of azshara, but my crit would drop a bit. Not hard to change with gems though.
Note: I do not have excel so I am not able to open spreadsheets in xls form.
Currently I'm using merciless gladiator's bonecracker (1.5) speed, but I've thought about taking either talon of azshara, rod of the sun king or s2 sword (2.6) speed for offhand. As mainhand Im using dragonstrike.
My stats are following (completely unbuffed in zerg stance):
1974ap
191 hit rating (12.11% to hit + 3% from talents)
30.78% chance to crit
MH: Dragonstrike (2.7 speed)
OH: Merciless gladiator's bonecracker (1.5 speed)
VS
Talon of azshara (2.7 speed)
Merciless gladiator's pummeler/slicer (2.6 speed)
I'd gain slightly more ap and hit from talon of azshara, but my crit would drop a bit. Not hard to change with gems though.
Note: I do not have excel so I am not able to open spreadsheets in xls form.
|
Originally Posted by mogun
I ran a 3/44/14 build last week. Personally I like it more then classical 17/44. The dmg output is at least the same plus you get the benefit of last stand, tactical mastery, extra threat from defiance so you can OT quite decent if needed (I was OT for council, Illidan's adds). Here is the WWS with that build.
|
It's basically impale vs defiance in terms of dps talents, impale is a 20% increase in damage for ~33% of your attacks, vs defiance, which is a flat 1.5% increase in damage for all your attacks (when attacking from behind).
|
Originally Posted by rayijin
The damage output is slightly lower, somewhere around 5% the last time I spreadsheeted it with my current gear.
It's basically impale vs defiance in terms of dps talents, impale is a 20% increase in damage for ~33% of your attacks, vs defiance, which is a flat 1.5% increase in damage for all your attacks (when attacking from behind). |
|
Originally Posted by rayijin
The damage output is slightly lower, somewhere around 5% the last time I spreadsheeted it with my current gear.
It's basically impale vs defiance in terms of dps talents, impale is a 20% increase in damage for ~33% of your attacks, vs defiance, which is a flat 1.5% increase in damage for all your attacks (when attacking from behind). |
Further, I don't see why tanking without the 5% parry and without improved TC would be better with a 3/44/14 build. The aggro would be higher, everything else, worser, thats all. And 5% parry often can help more than Last Stand, which is a 8 min cooldown and not a passive increase in defense.
So my opinion is, 17/44 is still superior...
|
Originally Posted by Graul
I thought Impale increased the overall damage of critical specials by 10%.
|
| two points makes yellow critical strikes hit for +120%, or 220% of normal damage. 220% (2/2 Impale) / 200% (No Impale) = 10% boost for two points, or 5% per point. |
I thought about including Deep Wounds as +2% for 2h and +1% for DW. Always forgot about it.
|
Originally Posted by Kaan
Plus deep wounds which often is 2-3% of the damage overall dealt. And you lose Anger Management which often is helpful.
Further, I don't see why tanking without the 5% parry and without improved TC would be better with a 3/44/14 build. The aggro would be higher, everything else, worser, thats all. And 5% parry often can help more than Last Stand, which is a 8 min cooldown and not a passive increase in defense. So my opinion is, 17/44 is still superior... |
Quick question:
I read that STR is the best stat when you have so-so gear for gemming, but at some point AP loses it's edge and crit actually becomes just as good if not better, just as hit loses it's edge at a certain point. Unfortunately, I can't find where I read this. It was probably here but search comes up with nothing.
Does anyone know about this?
I read that STR is the best stat when you have so-so gear for gemming, but at some point AP loses it's edge and crit actually becomes just as good if not better, just as hit loses it's edge at a certain point. Unfortunately, I can't find where I read this. It was probably here but search comes up with nothing.
Does anyone know about this?
You can be 3rd tank for Gurtogg as 5/41/15, good luck doing that as a standard spec.
|
Originally Posted by Touf
You can be 3rd tank for Gurtogg as 5/41/15, good luck doing that as a standard spec.
|
17/44 is better damage.
Obviously if you invest points in protection, pick up Defiance, and go 3/44/14, or 5/41/15, or whatever you're gonna be a better off-tank, then a Warrior that goes without, your DPS will suffer as a result.
How about we leave it at that, unless people can produce actual numbers that a Protection Hybrid build with the new Expertise is superior to the 17/44 cookie cutter FOR DAMAGE.
I have a question regarding haste and Tuskbreaker in particular:
Most haste items are shown more valuable to me in the new spreadsheet (current version). For example Tuskbreaker brings more DPS than Serpentshrine Shuriken and only little less than Ancient Amani Longbow. Am I underestimating haste, or is haste / this weapon overvalued in the spreadsheet? I'm currently wearing Tuskbreaker instead of SSC Shuriken and can't figure out, how a slight change in weaponspeed could be better than 12 hitrating (38 ap instead of 20 crit rating, and 18 haste instead of 12 hit).
Most haste items are shown more valuable to me in the new spreadsheet (current version). For example Tuskbreaker brings more DPS than Serpentshrine Shuriken and only little less than Ancient Amani Longbow. Am I underestimating haste, or is haste / this weapon overvalued in the spreadsheet? I'm currently wearing Tuskbreaker instead of SSC Shuriken and can't figure out, how a slight change in weaponspeed could be better than 12 hitrating (38 ap instead of 20 crit rating, and 18 haste instead of 12 hit).
All stats are relevant friend. If the spreadsheet is correct(it probably is, but theres always a chance), you are probably over MH hit cap, so hit is a minimal bonus in dps, and lacking in AP vs. crit, so AP is more valuable in your current gear set.
Hi, i was just wondering with the 2.3, most of us (fury) have gone both hands slow weapons. In the past when we reach the last 20 percent we were just switch our mh to a fast mh to spam execute on every gcd. However since we changed to both slow, which would be the better rotation nw? maintaining current rotationt (3bt 2ww) and the spam execute when both abilities are on cd, or switch both mh and oh to fast and spam execute. Or is there any other better rotation to max dps in last 20 percent
Thanks for the data, madrussian, and to Gruntle for the analysis. It's good to have some sort of answer on that topic.
|
Originally Posted by Fishhead
Quick question:
I read that STR is the best stat when you have so-so gear for gemming, but at some point AP loses it's edge and crit actually becomes just as good if not better, just as hit loses it's edge at a certain point. Unfortunately, I can't find where I read this. It was probably here but search comes up with nothing. Does anyone know about this? |
DW Fury Guide (4th Edition)
|
Originally Posted by Kaan
I have a question regarding haste and Tuskbreaker in particular:
Most haste items are shown more valuable to me in the new spreadsheet (current version). For example Tuskbreaker brings more DPS than Serpentshrine Shuriken and only little less than Ancient Amani Longbow. Am I underestimating haste, or is haste / this weapon overvalued in the spreadsheet? I'm currently wearing Tuskbreaker instead of SSC Shuriken and can't figure out, how a slight change in weaponspeed could be better than 12 hitrating (38 ap instead of 20 crit rating, and 18 haste instead of 12 hit). |
Haste nerf did change a lot of the rankings for gear but it certainly didn't make haste worse than hit (which has always been the worst (maybe tied with agi) dps stat for warriors, at least after 9% hit).
|
Originally Posted by obbw7291
Hi, i was just wondering with the 2.3, most of us (fury) have gone both hands slow weapons. In the past when we reach the last 20 percent we were just switch our mh to a fast mh to spam execute on every gcd. However since we changed to both slow, which would be the better rotation nw? maintaining current rotationt (3bt 2ww) and the spam execute when both abilities are on cd, or switch both mh and oh to fast and spam execute. Or is there any other better rotation to max dps in last 20 percent
|
When the boss drops to 19% I switch to a fast main hand and just spam execute unless rage is > 30 which is when I hit BT.
|
Originally Posted by Emeraude
Let's not get into a pissing contest in the thread over which is the better spec.
17/44 is better damage. Obviously if you invest points in protection, pick up Defiance, and go 3/44/14, or 5/41/15, or whatever you're gonna be a better off-tank, then a Warrior that goes without, your DPS will suffer as a result. How about we leave it at that, unless people can produce actual numbers that a Protection Hybrid build with the new Expertise is superior to the 17/44 cookie cutter FOR DAMAGE. |
I don't see it ever being superior on boss dps, but it more than certainly provides the intangibles that makes the night go by faster, which is what your goal should be as a raider.
|
Originally Posted by Quixotic
While I don't have WWS as I've had to MT this past week (tanks having RL issues/connection issues) 3/43/15 pulled about 50 dps less than my standard 17/44 build on teron (2050 to 2100). Granted it's not exactly scientific, but I feel that since it helps on trash it is a better spec for guilds who have things on farm, seeing as how trash is the vast majority of the time spent raiding on a farm clear.
I don't see it ever being superior on boss dps, but it more than certainly provides the intangibles that makes the night go by faster, which is what your goal should be as a raider. |
|
Originally Posted by Moogul
In your 3/43/15, was that 5/5 shield spec to get imp shield block, or did you take toughness and drop the 15th point elsewhere? I've been thinking of trying a 14+ prot build, and I'd really like imp shield block, but having to take shield spec over toughness seems like quite a cost, and if you're mostly helping out on trash, is the un-crushability really needed?
|
MS Hybrid - execute problems
Any other MS Hybrids (33/28/0) out there noticing poor returns on execute for raid bosses that spend a lot of time below 20%? (like VR, Lurker, and Al'ar) I find that by staying rage starved from execute spam, I may actually be doing less damage than I would if I was doing MS/WW/Slam. Maybe it's just my imagination....but
Here's a chart from VR last night.
WWS Loading...
My average execute damage is LESS than MS, slam, and HS. Maybe it was just bad luck.
Here's a chart from VR last night.
WWS Loading...
My average execute damage is LESS than MS, slam, and HS. Maybe it was just bad luck.
|
Originally Posted by Breandan
Any other MS Hybrids (33/28/0) out there noticing poor returns on execute for raid bosses that spend a lot of time below 20%? (like VR, Lurker, and Al'ar) I find that by staying rage starved from execute spam, I may actually be doing less damage than I would if I was doing MS/WW/Slam. Maybe it's just my imagination....but
Here's a chart from VR last night. WWS Loading... My average execute damage is LESS than MS, slam, and HS. Maybe it was just bad luck. |
Execute is already getting outscaled by other skills in a DW setup and for a slow hitting 2H its even worse.
|
Originally Posted by Breandan
Any other MS Hybrids (33/28/0) out there noticing poor returns on execute for raid bosses that spend a lot of time below 20%?
|
|
Originally Posted by Breandan
Any other MS Hybrids (33/28/0) out there noticing poor returns on execute for raid bosses that spend a lot of time below 20%?
|
Cool. It's nice to know I wasnt imagining it then. I'll definitely have to try staying with my rotation and see the results.
The way I treat <20% bosses as 33/28 spec is simply to add an execute in when WW is on cooldown, but otherwise keeping up my slam rotation. By simply spamming execute, you will probably be doing less damage than simply MS or WW, as well as only being able to do 1 single execute for auto-attack.
How do you reckon recklessness would factor into the use of execute? With the amount of rage you generate during recklessness, I'd say that DW executing would be most efficient way of maximizing the generation and spending of rage while it's up. However, execute becomes less efficient once it starts turning extra rage into damage and with recklessness up, your rage gen will be so high that that would be the case pretty much constantly. Thinking about this some more, it would perhaps be better to just trigger recklessness when your buff-situation is at its most perfect, like when you have Deathwish, trinkets and a pot ready at the same time you get Heroism.
Any thoughts on this?
Any thoughts on this?
i have 2 questions:
Many people reffer to the 3BT/2WW cycle, what does that mean exacly? BT,WW,BT,BT,WW, repeat?
And and are there any items out there that are actually worth the expertice rating? exept [Belt of One-Hundred Deaths].
Many people reffer to the 3BT/2WW cycle, what does that mean exacly? BT,WW,BT,BT,WW, repeat?
And and are there any items out there that are actually worth the expertice rating? exept [Belt of One-Hundred Deaths].
|
Originally Posted by Gruntle
Haste rating is way better than hit rating when above 9% hit, even after the nerf. 38ap is probably about the same dps increase as 20 crit rating, but 18 haste is almost twice as good as 12 hit rating.
Haste nerf did change a lot of the rankings for gear but it certainly didn't make haste worse than hit (which has always been the worst (maybe tied with agi) dps stat for warriors, at least after 9% hit). |
Edited onPatch 2.3.2
|
Originally Posted by Viril
i have 2 questions:
Many people reffer to the 3BT/2WW cycle, what does that mean exacly? BT,WW,BT,BT,WW, repeat? And and are there any items out there that are actually worth the expertice rating? exept [Belt of One-Hundred Deaths]. |
1.5: WW
3: Free GCD
4.5: Free GCD
6: BT
7.5: Free GCD
9: Free GCD
10.5: WW
12: BT
13.5 Free GCD
15: Free GCD
This implies with 1 point in improved whirlwind you can keep a perfect rotation of GCDs and keeping BT/WW on cooldown. However, in real world situations, I've found that having a perfect rotation as fury is kind of pointless, and I personally use a priority system of BS>BT>WW>RAMPAGE>HS in theory.
You can't really ask which items are worth expertise rating without first considering your current gear. If you are in T4/T5 I'm sure there are other items with expertise worth wearing, but at end game, yes [Belt of One-Hundred Deaths] is the only "best in slot" item.
|
Originally Posted by Dynalisia
How do you reckon recklessness would factor into the use of execute? With the amount of rage you generate during recklessness, I'd say that DW executing would be most efficient way of maximizing the generation and spending of rage while it's up. However, execute becomes less efficient once it starts turning extra rage into damage and with recklessness up, your rage gen will be so high that that would be the case pretty much constantly. Thinking about this some more, it would perhaps be better to just trigger recklessness when your buff-situation is at its most perfect, like when you have Deathwish, trinkets and a pot ready at the same time you get Heroism.
Any thoughts on this? |
Last edited by Quixotic : 01/18/08 at 11:05 PM.
|
Originally Posted by Dynalisia
How do you reckon recklessness would factor into the use of execute? With the amount of rage you generate during recklessness, I'd say that DW executing would be most efficient way of maximizing the generation and spending of rage while it's up. However, execute becomes less efficient once it starts turning extra rage into damage and with recklessness up, your rage gen will be so high that that would be the case pretty much constantly. Thinking about this some more, it would perhaps be better to just trigger recklessness when your buff-situation is at its most perfect, like when you have Deathwish, trinkets and a pot ready at the same time you get Heroism.
Any thoughts on this? |
On longer fights where you spend most of your executing time without previously mentioned cooldowns DW outperforms arms.
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Originally Posted by Goodlive
From my personal experience on short boss fights (Teron, most MH bosses) my 2h execute spamming performs better compared to Dual wield warrior execute dps. With Bloodlust/Haste potion/Deathwish you can almost do full rage executes every GCD. In fight where execute time is extremely short any misses from using dual-wield would be very severe.
On longer fights where you spend most of your executing time without previously mentioned cooldowns DW outperforms arms. |
Quick question:
I read that STR is the best stat when you have so-so gear for gemming, but at some point AP loses it's edge and crit actually becomes just as good if not better, just as hit loses it's edge at a certain point. Unfortunately, I can't find where I read this. It was probably here but search comes up with nothing.
Does anyone know about this?
I read that STR is the best stat when you have so-so gear for gemming, but at some point AP loses it's edge and crit actually becomes just as good if not better, just as hit loses it's edge at a certain point. Unfortunately, I can't find where I read this. It was probably here but search comes up with nothing.
Does anyone know about this?
You can be 3rd tank for Gurtogg as 5/41/15, good luck doing that as a standard spec.
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Originally Posted by Touf
You can be 3rd tank for Gurtogg as 5/41/15, good luck doing that as a standard spec.
|
17/44 is better damage.
Obviously if you invest points in protection, pick up Defiance, and go 3/44/14, or 5/41/15, or whatever you're gonna be a better off-tank, then a Warrior that goes without, your DPS will suffer as a result.
How about we leave it at that, unless people can produce actual numbers that a Protection Hybrid build with the new Expertise is superior to the 17/44 cookie cutter FOR DAMAGE.
I have a question regarding haste and Tuskbreaker in particular:
Most haste items are shown more valuable to me in the new spreadsheet (current version). For example Tuskbreaker brings more DPS than Serpentshrine Shuriken and only little less than Ancient Amani Longbow. Am I underestimating haste, or is haste / this weapon overvalued in the spreadsheet? I'm currently wearing Tuskbreaker instead of SSC Shuriken and can't figure out, how a slight change in weaponspeed could be better than 12 hitrating (38 ap instead of 20 crit rating, and 18 haste instead of 12 hit).
Most haste items are shown more valuable to me in the new spreadsheet (current version). For example Tuskbreaker brings more DPS than Serpentshrine Shuriken and only little less than Ancient Amani Longbow. Am I underestimating haste, or is haste / this weapon overvalued in the spreadsheet? I'm currently wearing Tuskbreaker instead of SSC Shuriken and can't figure out, how a slight change in weaponspeed could be better than 12 hitrating (38 ap instead of 20 crit rating, and 18 haste instead of 12 hit).
All stats are relevant friend. If the spreadsheet is correct(it probably is, but theres always a chance), you are probably over MH hit cap, so hit is a minimal bonus in dps, and lacking in AP vs. crit, so AP is more valuable in your current gear set.
Hi, i was just wondering with the 2.3, most of us (fury) have gone both hands slow weapons. In the past when we reach the last 20 percent we were just switch our mh to a fast mh to spam execute on every gcd. However since we changed to both slow, which would be the better rotation nw? maintaining current rotationt (3bt 2ww) and the spam execute when both abilities are on cd, or switch both mh and oh to fast and spam execute. Or is there any other better rotation to max dps in last 20 percent
Thanks for the data, madrussian, and to Gruntle for the analysis. It's good to have some sort of answer on that topic.
|
Originally Posted by Fishhead
Quick question:
I read that STR is the best stat when you have so-so gear for gemming, but at some point AP loses it's edge and crit actually becomes just as good if not better, just as hit loses it's edge at a certain point. Unfortunately, I can't find where I read this. It was probably here but search comes up with nothing. Does anyone know about this? |
DW Fury Guide (4th Edition)
|
Originally Posted by Kaan
I have a question regarding haste and Tuskbreaker in particular:
Most haste items are shown more valuable to me in the new spreadsheet (current version). For example Tuskbreaker brings more DPS than Serpentshrine Shuriken and only little less than Ancient Amani Longbow. Am I underestimating haste, or is haste / this weapon overvalued in the spreadsheet? I'm currently wearing Tuskbreaker instead of SSC Shuriken and can't figure out, how a slight change in weaponspeed could be better than 12 hitrating (38 ap instead of 20 crit rating, and 18 haste instead of 12 hit). |
Haste nerf did change a lot of the rankings for gear but it certainly didn't make haste worse than hit (which has always been the worst (maybe tied with agi) dps stat for warriors, at least after 9% hit).
|
Originally Posted by obbw7291
Hi, i was just wondering with the 2.3, most of us (fury) have gone both hands slow weapons. In the past when we reach the last 20 percent we were just switch our mh to a fast mh to spam execute on every gcd. However since we changed to both slow, which would be the better rotation nw? maintaining current rotationt (3bt 2ww) and the spam execute when both abilities are on cd, or switch both mh and oh to fast and spam execute. Or is there any other better rotation to max dps in last 20 percent
|
When the boss drops to 19% I switch to a fast main hand and just spam execute unless rage is > 30 which is when I hit BT.
|
Originally Posted by Emeraude
Let's not get into a pissing contest in the thread over which is the better spec.
17/44 is better damage. Obviously if you invest points in protection, pick up Defiance, and go 3/44/14, or 5/41/15, or whatever you're gonna be a better off-tank, then a Warrior that goes without, your DPS will suffer as a result. How about we leave it at that, unless people can produce actual numbers that a Protection Hybrid build with the new Expertise is superior to the 17/44 cookie cutter FOR DAMAGE. |
I don't see it ever being superior on boss dps, but it more than certainly provides the intangibles that makes the night go by faster, which is what your goal should be as a raider.
|
Originally Posted by Quixotic
While I don't have WWS as I've had to MT this past week (tanks having RL issues/connection issues) 3/43/15 pulled about 50 dps less than my standard 17/44 build on teron (2050 to 2100). Granted it's not exactly scientific, but I feel that since it helps on trash it is a better spec for guilds who have things on farm, seeing as how trash is the vast majority of the time spent raiding on a farm clear.
I don't see it ever being superior on boss dps, but it more than certainly provides the intangibles that makes the night go by faster, which is what your goal should be as a raider. |
|
Originally Posted by Moogul
In your 3/43/15, was that 5/5 shield spec to get imp shield block, or did you take toughness and drop the 15th point elsewhere? I've been thinking of trying a 14+ prot build, and I'd really like imp shield block, but having to take shield spec over toughness seems like quite a cost, and if you're mostly helping out on trash, is the un-crushability really needed?
|
MS Hybrid - execute problems
Any other MS Hybrids (33/28/0) out there noticing poor returns on execute for raid bosses that spend a lot of time below 20%? (like VR, Lurker, and Al'ar) I find that by staying rage starved from execute spam, I may actually be doing less damage than I would if I was doing MS/WW/Slam. Maybe it's just my imagination....but
Here's a chart from VR last night.
WWS Loading...
My average execute damage is LESS than MS, slam, and HS. Maybe it was just bad luck.
Here's a chart from VR last night.
WWS Loading...
My average execute damage is LESS than MS, slam, and HS. Maybe it was just bad luck.
|
Originally Posted by Breandan
Any other MS Hybrids (33/28/0) out there noticing poor returns on execute for raid bosses that spend a lot of time below 20%? (like VR, Lurker, and Al'ar) I find that by staying rage starved from execute spam, I may actually be doing less damage than I would if I was doing MS/WW/Slam. Maybe it's just my imagination....but
Here's a chart from VR last night. WWS Loading... My average execute damage is LESS than MS, slam, and HS. Maybe it was just bad luck. |
Execute is already getting outscaled by other skills in a DW setup and for a slow hitting 2H its even worse.
|
Originally Posted by Breandan
Any other MS Hybrids (33/28/0) out there noticing poor returns on execute for raid bosses that spend a lot of time below 20%?
|
|
Originally Posted by Breandan
Any other MS Hybrids (33/28/0) out there noticing poor returns on execute for raid bosses that spend a lot of time below 20%?
|
Cool. It's nice to know I wasnt imagining it then. I'll definitely have to try staying with my rotation and see the results.
The way I treat <20% bosses as 33/28 spec is simply to add an execute in when WW is on cooldown, but otherwise keeping up my slam rotation. By simply spamming execute, you will probably be doing less damage than simply MS or WW, as well as only being able to do 1 single execute for auto-attack.
How do you reckon recklessness would factor into the use of execute? With the amount of rage you generate during recklessness, I'd say that DW executing would be most efficient way of maximizing the generation and spending of rage while it's up. However, execute becomes less efficient once it starts turning extra rage into damage and with recklessness up, your rage gen will be so high that that would be the case pretty much constantly. Thinking about this some more, it would perhaps be better to just trigger recklessness when your buff-situation is at its most perfect, like when you have Deathwish, trinkets and a pot ready at the same time you get Heroism.
Any thoughts on this?
Any thoughts on this?
i have 2 questions:
Many people reffer to the 3BT/2WW cycle, what does that mean exacly? BT,WW,BT,BT,WW, repeat?
And and are there any items out there that are actually worth the expertice rating? exept [Belt of One-Hundred Deaths].
Many people reffer to the 3BT/2WW cycle, what does that mean exacly? BT,WW,BT,BT,WW, repeat?
And and are there any items out there that are actually worth the expertice rating? exept [Belt of One-Hundred Deaths].
|
Originally Posted by Gruntle
Haste rating is way better than hit rating when above 9% hit, even after the nerf. 38ap is probably about the same dps increase as 20 crit rating, but 18 haste is almost twice as good as 12 hit rating.
Haste nerf did change a lot of the rankings for gear but it certainly didn't make haste worse than hit (which has always been the worst (maybe tied with agi) dps stat for warriors, at least after 9% hit). |
Edited onPatch 2.3.2
|
Originally Posted by Viril
i have 2 questions:
Many people reffer to the 3BT/2WW cycle, what does that mean exacly? BT,WW,BT,BT,WW, repeat? And and are there any items out there that are actually worth the expertice rating? exept [Belt of One-Hundred Deaths]. |
1.5: WW
3: Free GCD
4.5: Free GCD
6: BT
7.5: Free GCD
9: Free GCD
10.5: WW
12: BT
13.5 Free GCD
15: Free GCD
This implies with 1 point in improved whirlwind you can keep a perfect rotation of GCDs and keeping BT/WW on cooldown. However, in real world situations, I've found that having a perfect rotation as fury is kind of pointless, and I personally use a priority system of BS>BT>WW>RAMPAGE>HS in theory.
You can't really ask which items are worth expertise rating without first considering your current gear. If you are in T4/T5 I'm sure there are other items with expertise worth wearing, but at end game, yes [Belt of One-Hundred Deaths] is the only "best in slot" item.
|
Originally Posted by Dynalisia
How do you reckon recklessness would factor into the use of execute? With the amount of rage you generate during recklessness, I'd say that DW executing would be most efficient way of maximizing the generation and spending of rage while it's up. However, execute becomes less efficient once it starts turning extra rage into damage and with recklessness up, your rage gen will be so high that that would be the case pretty much constantly. Thinking about this some more, it would perhaps be better to just trigger recklessness when your buff-situation is at its most perfect, like when you have Deathwish, trinkets and a pot ready at the same time you get Heroism.
Any thoughts on this? |
Last edited by Quixotic : 01/18/08 at 11:05 PM.
|
Originally Posted by Dynalisia
How do you reckon recklessness would factor into the use of execute? With the amount of rage you generate during recklessness, I'd say that DW executing would be most efficient way of maximizing the generation and spending of rage while it's up. However, execute becomes less efficient once it starts turning extra rage into damage and with recklessness up, your rage gen will be so high that that would be the case pretty much constantly. Thinking about this some more, it would perhaps be better to just trigger recklessness when your buff-situation is at its most perfect, like when you have Deathwish, trinkets and a pot ready at the same time you get Heroism.
Any thoughts on this? |
On longer fights where you spend most of your executing time without previously mentioned cooldowns DW outperforms arms.
|
Originally Posted by Goodlive
From my personal experience on short boss fights (Teron, most MH bosses) my 2h execute spamming performs better compared to Dual wield warrior execute dps. With Bloodlust/Haste potion/Deathwish you can almost do full rage executes every GCD. In fight where execute time is extremely short any misses from using dual-wield would be very severe.
On longer fights where you spend most of your executing time without previously mentioned cooldowns DW outperforms arms. |
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Originally Posted by Quixotic
0: BT
This implies with 1 point in improved whirlwind you can keep a perfect rotation of GCDs and keeping BT/WW on cooldown. However, in real world situations, I've found that having a perfect rotation as fury is kind of pointless, and I personally use a priority system of BS>BT>WW>RAMPAGE>HS in theory. You can't really ask which items are worth expertise rating without first considering your current gear. If you are in T4/T5 I'm sure there are other items with expertise worth wearing, but at end game, yes [Belt of One-Hundred Deaths] is the only "best in slot" item. |
i'm on t4-5 atm, but with the ridiculous S3 itemization i wont be going for any other items but t6 and t5 best in slot.
First time poster so be gentle 
2 questions - I'm DW fury T4-5/S3 geared with a HR of 165 or so. I've heard our guild tanks talk about Brooch of Deftness ( Thottbot World of Warcraft: Brooch of Deftness ) as a great tanking item but I'm wondering about it as a dps item. I'm not much of a theorycrafter type so can anyone tell me how that item would stack up against the +crit/AP neckpiece I'm currently using?
Next, since on boss fights I always seem to have more rage than I can safely dump should I spec out of Unbridled Wrath?
2 questions - I'm DW fury T4-5/S3 geared with a HR of 165 or so. I've heard our guild tanks talk about Brooch of Deftness ( Thottbot World of Warcraft: Brooch of Deftness ) as a great tanking item but I'm wondering about it as a dps item. I'm not much of a theorycrafter type so can anyone tell me how that item would stack up against the +crit/AP neckpiece I'm currently using?
Next, since on boss fights I always seem to have more rage than I can safely dump should I spec out of Unbridled Wrath?
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Originally Posted by Bessee
First time poster so be gentle
2 questions - I'm DW fury T4-5/S3 geared with a HR of 165 or so. I've heard our guild tanks talk about Brooch of Deftness ( Thottbot World of Warcraft: Brooch of Deftness ) as a great tanking item but I'm wondering about it as a dps item. I'm not much of a theorycrafter type so can anyone tell me how that item would stack up against the +crit/AP neckpiece I'm currently using? |
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Originally Posted by Bessee
Next, since on boss fights I always seem to have more rage than I can safely dump should I spec out of Unbridled Wrath?
|
PS: If you have more gear questions, there is a great Warrior DPS spreadsheet to be had here: [Warrior] DPS Spreadsheet 2.3 and beyond
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Originally Posted by Quixotic
For starters, it's simply impossible to use execute every GCD with a 2h, you don't swing faster than 1.5 seconds. Secondly, any thing more than a 12/15 rage execute with a 2h (full rage executes) is bad, as MS/WW/Slam should out dps execute at T6 level of gear.
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Anyone know a good way to measure dodge rates of mobs solo? My plan was to figure out if Mace/Sword expertises stacked for Humans but I just don't know which mob to test it on. I went to DM N to slap the immune ogre spectators that you can find in a circle around the ogre king. But alas, it seems they do not dodge or parry at all.
I am currently auto attacking a level 57 Blasted Lands Servant (the highest level you can find) but I am not sure if their level is too low to measure dodge rates. I've done around 1000 swings so far but none of them have been dodged or parried with 0 expertise. I do have Weapon Mastery specced atm so that would explain a lower than expected dodge rate but it should not affect parry rates at all (which, for all we know, is equal to dodge rate for non-boss mobs).
So I was expecting a 5% - 13x0.2% = 2.4% parry/dodge rate from a level 57 mob (2.4% parry and 0.4% dodge with WM) but so far no luck. Are my assumptions incorrect?
PS: I'd spec out of WM to test this if someone confirms my assumptions but I don't want to waste cash if someone is going to tell me I am wasting my time on level 57 mobs in the first place.
I am currently auto attacking a level 57 Blasted Lands Servant (the highest level you can find) but I am not sure if their level is too low to measure dodge rates. I've done around 1000 swings so far but none of them have been dodged or parried with 0 expertise. I do have Weapon Mastery specced atm so that would explain a lower than expected dodge rate but it should not affect parry rates at all (which, for all we know, is equal to dodge rate for non-boss mobs).
So I was expecting a 5% - 13x0.2% = 2.4% parry/dodge rate from a level 57 mob (2.4% parry and 0.4% dodge with WM) but so far no luck. Are my assumptions incorrect?
PS: I'd spec out of WM to test this if someone confirms my assumptions but I don't want to waste cash if someone is going to tell me I am wasting my time on level 57 mobs in the first place.
Is there even a way to test Dodge properly? I don't think so, because you can't tell from the combat log.
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Originally Posted by dr_AllCOM3
Is there even a way to test Dodge properly? I don't think so, because you can't tell from the combat log.
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EDIT: Inspired by this post: http://elitistjerks.com/603821-post2634.html
|
Originally Posted by Liar
Anyone know a good way to measure dodge rates of mobs solo? My plan was to figure out if Mace/Sword expertises stacked for Humans but I just don't know which mob to test it on. I went to DM N to slap the immune ogre spectators that you can find in a circle around the ogre king. But alas, it seems they do not dodge or parry at all.
I am currently auto attacking a level 57 Blasted Lands Servant (the highest level you can find) but I am not sure if their level is too low to measure dodge rates. I've done around 1000 swings so far but none of them have been dodged or parried with 0 expertise. I do have Weapon Mastery specced atm so that would explain a lower than expected dodge rate but it should not affect parry rates at all (which, for all we know, is equal to dodge rate for non-boss mobs). So I was expecting a 5% - 13x0.2% = 2.4% parry/dodge rate from a level 57 mob (2.4% parry and 0.4% dodge with WM) but so far no luck. Are my assumptions incorrect? PS: I'd spec out of WM to test this if someone confirms my assumptions but I don't want to waste cash if someone is going to tell me I am wasting my time on level 57 mobs in the first place. |
Ugh, look a few posts back on the previous page, I posted exactly about this topic.
|
Originally Posted by madrussian
Ugh, look a few posts back on the previous page, I posted exactly about this topic.
|
Edited onPatch 2.3.2
Well, as mentioned in my post earlier, the trash is at least >lvl 70. Thus they should all have base dodge chances above 5%. The logs from madrussian showed that the dodge was 0.7 (for both bosses and trash combined) with expertise stacking for mace/sword racials. With all dodge modifiers accounted for this gives a base dodge of 5.2-5.6 (for the statistics see the earlier post). To me, that's enough evidence to show that they do indeed stack currently. Blizzard has still not stated if this is intended or not (I think the racial is too strong as 10 expertise but that's just an opinion of course).
This argument does of course assume that the base dodge is 5.0,5.2,5.4 and 5.6 for lvl 70, 71, 72 and 73 respectively.
edit: it would actually be quite interesting if anyone could try to get some dodge statistics for boss fights with capped expertise, i.e. 2% from weapon mastery and 3.6 from racial and gear (i.e. try with both 14 and 15 expertise skill). If we can get enough swings with that kind of setup we would definitely know that the dodge chance is between 5.5 and 5.75. The lower the observed dodge chance is and the more total swings, the better statistics we can get.
This argument does of course assume that the base dodge is 5.0,5.2,5.4 and 5.6 for lvl 70, 71, 72 and 73 respectively.
edit: it would actually be quite interesting if anyone could try to get some dodge statistics for boss fights with capped expertise, i.e. 2% from weapon mastery and 3.6 from racial and gear (i.e. try with both 14 and 15 expertise skill). If we can get enough swings with that kind of setup we would definitely know that the dodge chance is between 5.5 and 5.75. The lower the observed dodge chance is and the more total swings, the better statistics we can get.
Last edited by Gruntle : 01/19/08 at 5:35 PM.
Ill see if I can do that next week, if only we had some lvl 70 'blasted lands' mobs 
Is there a ideal skill rotation for fury duel wielders?
(I have 1/2 in imp WW talent)
I always do: BT first, if BT is not up, use WW, if WW isnot up, HS and Cleave afterwards if my instants are still under cooldowns.
Thanks!
(I have 1/2 in imp WW talent)
I always do: BT first, if BT is not up, use WW, if WW isnot up, HS and Cleave afterwards if my instants are still under cooldowns.
Thanks!
|
Originally Posted by lazerpewpew
Is there a ideal skill rotation for fury duel wielders?
(I have 1/2 in imp WW talent) I always do: BT first, if BT is not up, use WW, if WW isnot up, HS and Cleave afterwards if my instants are still under cooldowns. Thanks! |
Originally Posted by Quixotic
0: BT
This implies with 1 point in improved whirlwind you can keep a perfect rotation of GCDs and keeping BT/WW on cooldown. However, in real world situations, I've found that having a perfect rotation as fury is kind of pointless, and I personally use a priority system of BS>BT>WW>RAMPAGE>HS in theory.
Posted at the top of the page, I follow the same priority system.
|
Originally Posted by Quixotic
For starters, it's simply impossible to use execute every GCD with a 2h, you don't swing faster than 1.5 seconds. Secondly, any thing more than a 12/15 rage execute with a 2h (full rage executes) is bad, as MS/WW/Slam should out dps execute at T6 level of gear.
|
Hi all. I just registered and have been skimming a bit through this topic trying to help max out my warrior's DPS in a raid. I was told a while ago about maxdps.com, went there and plugged in some of my stats to see what the estimate would be. Now I know it's an estimate and that it can't be held as fact, but when I goofed around in their Arms section and put my 2h stats info in it came out with a number that was at least 100 more DPS then my stats as fury.
With my current gear in Fury I have 1851 AP, 163 Hit, and 28.87% crit and 420 Armor Pen vs my Arms gear which would be about 1816 AP, hit cap, 33.57% crit and also 420 Armor Pen.
The estimate that Maxdps gave me for my fury was 848 DPS, and the estimate it gave for my Arms was about 945 DPS. So I'm unsure of if I should believe Maxdps showing my Arms gear could outperform my Fury gear, or if there is some error in their system.
Any response would be appreciated.
With my current gear in Fury I have 1851 AP, 163 Hit, and 28.87% crit and 420 Armor Pen vs my Arms gear which would be about 1816 AP, hit cap, 33.57% crit and also 420 Armor Pen.
The estimate that Maxdps gave me for my fury was 848 DPS, and the estimate it gave for my Arms was about 945 DPS. So I'm unsure of if I should believe Maxdps showing my Arms gear could outperform my Fury gear, or if there is some error in their system.
Any response would be appreciated.
I wouldn't give so much about what maxdps.com says. It's okay for a quick item check, whether item x or y provides more dps. But to find out your personal dps, I suggest you to use the spreadsheet developed here.
|
Hi all. I just registered and have been skimming a bit through this topic trying to help max out my warrior's DPS in a raid. I was told a while ago about maxdps.com, went there and plugged in some of my stats to see what the estimate would be. Now I know it's an estimate and that it can't be held as fact, but when I goofed around in their Arms section and put my 2h stats info in it came out with a number that was at least 100 more DPS then my stats as fury. With my current gear in Fury I have 1851 AP, 163 Hit, and 28.87% crit and 420 Armor Pen vs my Arms gear which would be about 1816 AP, hit cap, 33.57% crit and also 420 Armor Pen. The estimate that Maxdps gave me for my fury was 848 DPS, and the estimate it gave for my Arms was about 945 DPS. So I'm unsure of if I should believe Maxdps showing my Arms gear could outperform my Fury gear, or if there is some error in their system. Any response would be appreciated. |
Also take in mind the gear value is a personal issue 10 crit can be worth more when you are with better gear then 10 str. a thing that is not take into account in maxdps. Also when you hit 200+ hit , hit value goes down alot so +hit should not be a main issue for you.
In total MaxDps is a fine site for basic knowledge use other means to caculate your DPS.
|
Originally Posted by orco
MaxDps is a fine place to see gear and get a basic estimations BUT is far from being accurate in total DPS result.
Also take in mind the gear value is a personal issue 10 crit can be worth more when you are with better gear then 10 str. a thing that is not take into account in maxdps. Also when you hit 200+ hit , hit value goes down alot so +hit should not be a main issue for you. In total MaxDps is a fine site for basic knowledge use other means to caculate your DPS. |
About the 200+ hit. Quit spreading around that silly number that has nothing to do with how things works in reality. The only two numbers you need to worry about for hit is 9% (cap for specials, most people would agree that this is the hit cap that is most important) and 28% (hard cap to hit). The value of hit goes down after reaching 9% (95 hit rating with Precision).
What mods are you guys using to track battle/commanding shout? I'm pretty good about keeping it up but occasionally let it fall off for a bit. Right now I'm using AnnoyingBuffReminder but I don't really like it because it only warns you when the buff actually falls off (it would be nice if it gave a 15-20 sec expiration warning) and I came across a problem yesterday where there were 2 warriors in a group and I was doing battle shout, the other warrior doing commanding. ABR wasn't popping up when battle shout expired, I guess because it only looks for either battle/commanding regardless of the amount of warriors in your group/who put it up.
|
Originally Posted by mikebro
What mods are you guys using to track battle/commanding shout? I'm pretty good about keeping it up but occasionally let it fall off for a bit. Right now I'm using AnnoyingBuffReminder but I don't really like it because it only warns you when the buff actually falls off (it would be nice if it gave a 15-20 sec expiration warning) and I came across a problem yesterday where there were 2 warriors in a group and I was doing battle shout, the other warrior doing commanding. ABR wasn't popping up when battle shout expired, I guess because it only looks for either battle/commanding regardless of the amount of warriors in your group/who put it up.
|
Rampage Bar | Curse
You need to set battleshout to have a 120second countdown bar or you wont see it until there's <30second left on it.
--smasher
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
I have PowerAuras set to display the BS icon next to my head if I am in combat and don't have the shout.
Last edited by Apate : 01/22/08 at 1:25 AM.
I use Classtimer - it's like Rampage Bar but tracks more buffs and debuffs: all shouts, thunderclap, demo, sunders, bleeds, MS... anything you want, really. It also has features a lot more customization options. I switched to it from Rampage Bar because I couldn't get the RB frame to grow the direction I wanted to (my unitframes are towards the bottom of my screen).
|
Originally Posted by mikebro
What mods are you guys using to track battle/commanding shout? I'm pretty good about keeping it up but occasionally let it fall off for a bit. Right now I'm using AnnoyingBuffReminder but I don't really like it because it only warns you when the buff actually falls off (it would be nice if it gave a 15-20 sec expiration warning) and I came across a problem yesterday where there were 2 warriors in a group and I was doing battle shout, the other warrior doing commanding. ABR wasn't popping up when battle shout expired, I guess because it only looks for either battle/commanding regardless of the amount of warriors in your group/who put it up.
|
I use the focus buff bar of Quartz, to track self buffs - from shouts to well fed. As a warrior I hardly need to have a focus target set. For debuffs on mobs I use NECB.
|
Originally Posted by Apate
I have PowerAuras set to display the BS icon next to my head if I am in combat and don't have the shout.
|
Many thanks
|
Originally Posted by Quixotic
0: BT
This implies with 1 point in improved whirlwind you can keep a perfect rotation of GCDs and keeping BT/WW on cooldown. However, in real world situations, I've found that having a perfect rotation as fury is kind of pointless, and I personally use a priority system of BS>BT>WW>RAMPAGE>HS in theory. You can't really ask which items are worth expertise rating without first considering your current gear. If you are in T4/T5 I'm sure there are other items with expertise worth wearing, but at end game, yes [Belt of One-Hundred Deaths] is the only "best in slot" item. |
i'm on t4-5 atm, but with the ridiculous S3 itemization i wont be going for any other items but t6 and t5 best in slot.
First time poster so be gentle
2 questions - I'm DW fury T4-5/S3 geared with a HR of 165 or so. I've heard our guild tanks talk about Brooch of Deftness ( Thottbot World of Warcraft: Brooch of Deftness ) as a great tanking item but I'm wondering about it as a dps item. I'm not much of a theorycrafter type so can anyone tell me how that item would stack up against the +crit/AP neckpiece I'm currently using?
Next, since on boss fights I always seem to have more rage than I can safely dump should I spec out of Unbridled Wrath?
2 questions - I'm DW fury T4-5/S3 geared with a HR of 165 or so. I've heard our guild tanks talk about Brooch of Deftness ( Thottbot World of Warcraft: Brooch of Deftness ) as a great tanking item but I'm wondering about it as a dps item. I'm not much of a theorycrafter type so can anyone tell me how that item would stack up against the +crit/AP neckpiece I'm currently using?
Next, since on boss fights I always seem to have more rage than I can safely dump should I spec out of Unbridled Wrath?
|
Originally Posted by Bessee
First time poster so be gentle
2 questions - I'm DW fury T4-5/S3 geared with a HR of 165 or so. I've heard our guild tanks talk about Brooch of Deftness ( Thottbot World of Warcraft: Brooch of Deftness ) as a great tanking item but I'm wondering about it as a dps item. I'm not much of a theorycrafter type so can anyone tell me how that item would stack up against the +crit/AP neckpiece I'm currently using? |
|
Originally Posted by Bessee
Next, since on boss fights I always seem to have more rage than I can safely dump should I spec out of Unbridled Wrath?
|
PS: If you have more gear questions, there is a great Warrior DPS spreadsheet to be had here: [Warrior] DPS Spreadsheet 2.3 and beyond
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Originally Posted by Quixotic
For starters, it's simply impossible to use execute every GCD with a 2h, you don't swing faster than 1.5 seconds. Secondly, any thing more than a 12/15 rage execute with a 2h (full rage executes) is bad, as MS/WW/Slam should out dps execute at T6 level of gear.
|
Anyone know a good way to measure dodge rates of mobs solo? My plan was to figure out if Mace/Sword expertises stacked for Humans but I just don't know which mob to test it on. I went to DM N to slap the immune ogre spectators that you can find in a circle around the ogre king. But alas, it seems they do not dodge or parry at all.
I am currently auto attacking a level 57 Blasted Lands Servant (the highest level you can find) but I am not sure if their level is too low to measure dodge rates. I've done around 1000 swings so far but none of them have been dodged or parried with 0 expertise. I do have Weapon Mastery specced atm so that would explain a lower than expected dodge rate but it should not affect parry rates at all (which, for all we know, is equal to dodge rate for non-boss mobs).
So I was expecting a 5% - 13x0.2% = 2.4% parry/dodge rate from a level 57 mob (2.4% parry and 0.4% dodge with WM) but so far no luck. Are my assumptions incorrect?
PS: I'd spec out of WM to test this if someone confirms my assumptions but I don't want to waste cash if someone is going to tell me I am wasting my time on level 57 mobs in the first place.
I am currently auto attacking a level 57 Blasted Lands Servant (the highest level you can find) but I am not sure if their level is too low to measure dodge rates. I've done around 1000 swings so far but none of them have been dodged or parried with 0 expertise. I do have Weapon Mastery specced atm so that would explain a lower than expected dodge rate but it should not affect parry rates at all (which, for all we know, is equal to dodge rate for non-boss mobs).
So I was expecting a 5% - 13x0.2% = 2.4% parry/dodge rate from a level 57 mob (2.4% parry and 0.4% dodge with WM) but so far no luck. Are my assumptions incorrect?
PS: I'd spec out of WM to test this if someone confirms my assumptions but I don't want to waste cash if someone is going to tell me I am wasting my time on level 57 mobs in the first place.
Is there even a way to test Dodge properly? I don't think so, because you can't tell from the combat log.
|
Originally Posted by dr_AllCOM3
Is there even a way to test Dodge properly? I don't think so, because you can't tell from the combat log.
|
EDIT: Inspired by this post: http://elitistjerks.com/603821-post2634.html
|
Originally Posted by Liar
Anyone know a good way to measure dodge rates of mobs solo? My plan was to figure out if Mace/Sword expertises stacked for Humans but I just don't know which mob to test it on. I went to DM N to slap the immune ogre spectators that you can find in a circle around the ogre king. But alas, it seems they do not dodge or parry at all.
I am currently auto attacking a level 57 Blasted Lands Servant (the highest level you can find) but I am not sure if their level is too low to measure dodge rates. I've done around 1000 swings so far but none of them have been dodged or parried with 0 expertise. I do have Weapon Mastery specced atm so that would explain a lower than expected dodge rate but it should not affect parry rates at all (which, for all we know, is equal to dodge rate for non-boss mobs). So I was expecting a 5% - 13x0.2% = 2.4% parry/dodge rate from a level 57 mob (2.4% parry and 0.4% dodge with WM) but so far no luck. Are my assumptions incorrect? PS: I'd spec out of WM to test this if someone confirms my assumptions but I don't want to waste cash if someone is going to tell me I am wasting my time on level 57 mobs in the first place. |
Ugh, look a few posts back on the previous page, I posted exactly about this topic.
|
Originally Posted by madrussian
Ugh, look a few posts back on the previous page, I posted exactly about this topic.
|
Edited onPatch 2.3.2
Well, as mentioned in my post earlier, the trash is at least >lvl 70. Thus they should all have base dodge chances above 5%. The logs from madrussian showed that the dodge was 0.7 (for both bosses and trash combined) with expertise stacking for mace/sword racials. With all dodge modifiers accounted for this gives a base dodge of 5.2-5.6 (for the statistics see the earlier post). To me, that's enough evidence to show that they do indeed stack currently. Blizzard has still not stated if this is intended or not (I think the racial is too strong as 10 expertise but that's just an opinion of course).
This argument does of course assume that the base dodge is 5.0,5.2,5.4 and 5.6 for lvl 70, 71, 72 and 73 respectively.
edit: it would actually be quite interesting if anyone could try to get some dodge statistics for boss fights with capped expertise, i.e. 2% from weapon mastery and 3.6 from racial and gear (i.e. try with both 14 and 15 expertise skill). If we can get enough swings with that kind of setup we would definitely know that the dodge chance is between 5.5 and 5.75. The lower the observed dodge chance is and the more total swings, the better statistics we can get.
This argument does of course assume that the base dodge is 5.0,5.2,5.4 and 5.6 for lvl 70, 71, 72 and 73 respectively.
edit: it would actually be quite interesting if anyone could try to get some dodge statistics for boss fights with capped expertise, i.e. 2% from weapon mastery and 3.6 from racial and gear (i.e. try with both 14 and 15 expertise skill). If we can get enough swings with that kind of setup we would definitely know that the dodge chance is between 5.5 and 5.75. The lower the observed dodge chance is and the more total swings, the better statistics we can get.
Last edited by Gruntle : 01/19/08 at 5:35 PM.
Ill see if I can do that next week, if only we had some lvl 70 'blasted lands' mobs
Is there a ideal skill rotation for fury duel wielders?
(I have 1/2 in imp WW talent)
I always do: BT first, if BT is not up, use WW, if WW isnot up, HS and Cleave afterwards if my instants are still under cooldowns.
Thanks!
(I have 1/2 in imp WW talent)
I always do: BT first, if BT is not up, use WW, if WW isnot up, HS and Cleave afterwards if my instants are still under cooldowns.
Thanks!
|
Originally Posted by lazerpewpew
Is there a ideal skill rotation for fury duel wielders?
(I have 1/2 in imp WW talent) I always do: BT first, if BT is not up, use WW, if WW isnot up, HS and Cleave afterwards if my instants are still under cooldowns. Thanks! |
Originally Posted by Quixotic
0: BT
This implies with 1 point in improved whirlwind you can keep a perfect rotation of GCDs and keeping BT/WW on cooldown. However, in real world situations, I've found that having a perfect rotation as fury is kind of pointless, and I personally use a priority system of BS>BT>WW>RAMPAGE>HS in theory.
Posted at the top of the page, I follow the same priority system.
|
Originally Posted by Quixotic
For starters, it's simply impossible to use execute every GCD with a 2h, you don't swing faster than 1.5 seconds. Secondly, any thing more than a 12/15 rage execute with a 2h (full rage executes) is bad, as MS/WW/Slam should out dps execute at T6 level of gear.
|
Hi all. I just registered and have been skimming a bit through this topic trying to help max out my warrior's DPS in a raid. I was told a while ago about maxdps.com, went there and plugged in some of my stats to see what the estimate would be. Now I know it's an estimate and that it can't be held as fact, but when I goofed around in their Arms section and put my 2h stats info in it came out with a number that was at least 100 more DPS then my stats as fury.
With my current gear in Fury I have 1851 AP, 163 Hit, and 28.87% crit and 420 Armor Pen vs my Arms gear which would be about 1816 AP, hit cap, 33.57% crit and also 420 Armor Pen.
The estimate that Maxdps gave me for my fury was 848 DPS, and the estimate it gave for my Arms was about 945 DPS. So I'm unsure of if I should believe Maxdps showing my Arms gear could outperform my Fury gear, or if there is some error in their system.
Any response would be appreciated.
With my current gear in Fury I have 1851 AP, 163 Hit, and 28.87% crit and 420 Armor Pen vs my Arms gear which would be about 1816 AP, hit cap, 33.57% crit and also 420 Armor Pen.
The estimate that Maxdps gave me for my fury was 848 DPS, and the estimate it gave for my Arms was about 945 DPS. So I'm unsure of if I should believe Maxdps showing my Arms gear could outperform my Fury gear, or if there is some error in their system.
Any response would be appreciated.
I wouldn't give so much about what maxdps.com says. It's okay for a quick item check, whether item x or y provides more dps. But to find out your personal dps, I suggest you to use the spreadsheet developed here.
|
Hi all. I just registered and have been skimming a bit through this topic trying to help max out my warrior's DPS in a raid. I was told a while ago about maxdps.com, went there and plugged in some of my stats to see what the estimate would be. Now I know it's an estimate and that it can't be held as fact, but when I goofed around in their Arms section and put my 2h stats info in it came out with a number that was at least 100 more DPS then my stats as fury. With my current gear in Fury I have 1851 AP, 163 Hit, and 28.87% crit and 420 Armor Pen vs my Arms gear which would be about 1816 AP, hit cap, 33.57% crit and also 420 Armor Pen. The estimate that Maxdps gave me for my fury was 848 DPS, and the estimate it gave for my Arms was about 945 DPS. So I'm unsure of if I should believe Maxdps showing my Arms gear could outperform my Fury gear, or if there is some error in their system. Any response would be appreciated. |
Also take in mind the gear value is a personal issue 10 crit can be worth more when you are with better gear then 10 str. a thing that is not take into account in maxdps. Also when you hit 200+ hit , hit value goes down alot so +hit should not be a main issue for you.
In total MaxDps is a fine site for basic knowledge use other means to caculate your DPS.
|
Originally Posted by orco
MaxDps is a fine place to see gear and get a basic estimations BUT is far from being accurate in total DPS result.
Also take in mind the gear value is a personal issue 10 crit can be worth more when you are with better gear then 10 str. a thing that is not take into account in maxdps. Also when you hit 200+ hit , hit value goes down alot so +hit should not be a main issue for you. In total MaxDps is a fine site for basic knowledge use other means to caculate your DPS. |
About the 200+ hit. Quit spreading around that silly number that has nothing to do with how things works in reality. The only two numbers you need to worry about for hit is 9% (cap for specials, most people would agree that this is the hit cap that is most important) and 28% (hard cap to hit). The value of hit goes down after reaching 9% (95 hit rating with Precision).
What mods are you guys using to track battle/commanding shout? I'm pretty good about keeping it up but occasionally let it fall off for a bit. Right now I'm using AnnoyingBuffReminder but I don't really like it because it only warns you when the buff actually falls off (it would be nice if it gave a 15-20 sec expiration warning) and I came across a problem yesterday where there were 2 warriors in a group and I was doing battle shout, the other warrior doing commanding. ABR wasn't popping up when battle shout expired, I guess because it only looks for either battle/commanding regardless of the amount of warriors in your group/who put it up.
|
Originally Posted by mikebro
What mods are you guys using to track battle/commanding shout? I'm pretty good about keeping it up but occasionally let it fall off for a bit. Right now I'm using AnnoyingBuffReminder but I don't really like it because it only warns you when the buff actually falls off (it would be nice if it gave a 15-20 sec expiration warning) and I came across a problem yesterday where there were 2 warriors in a group and I was doing battle shout, the other warrior doing commanding. ABR wasn't popping up when battle shout expired, I guess because it only looks for either battle/commanding regardless of the amount of warriors in your group/who put it up.
|
Rampage Bar | Curse
You need to set battleshout to have a 120second countdown bar or you wont see it until there's <30second left on it.
--smasher
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
I have PowerAuras set to display the BS icon next to my head if I am in combat and don't have the shout.
Last edited by Apate : 01/22/08 at 1:25 AM.
I use Classtimer - it's like Rampage Bar but tracks more buffs and debuffs: all shouts, thunderclap, demo, sunders, bleeds, MS... anything you want, really. It also has features a lot more customization options. I switched to it from Rampage Bar because I couldn't get the RB frame to grow the direction I wanted to (my unitframes are towards the bottom of my screen).
|
Originally Posted by mikebro
What mods are you guys using to track battle/commanding shout? I'm pretty good about keeping it up but occasionally let it fall off for a bit. Right now I'm using AnnoyingBuffReminder but I don't really like it because it only warns you when the buff actually falls off (it would be nice if it gave a 15-20 sec expiration warning) and I came across a problem yesterday where there were 2 warriors in a group and I was doing battle shout, the other warrior doing commanding. ABR wasn't popping up when battle shout expired, I guess because it only looks for either battle/commanding regardless of the amount of warriors in your group/who put it up.
|
I use the focus buff bar of Quartz, to track self buffs - from shouts to well fed. As a warrior I hardly need to have a focus target set. For debuffs on mobs I use NECB.
|
Originally Posted by Apate
I have PowerAuras set to display the BS icon next to my head if I am in combat and don't have the shout.
|
Many thanks
Does anyone know an addon that shows how much time there is left after a critical strike to activate Rampage and after killing an enemy to activate Victory Rush? Best would be an ACE based addon, showing bars and numbers. ^^
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Originally Posted by Spuddelkopf
Does anyone know an addon that shows how much time there is left after a critical strike to activate Rampage and after killing an enemy to activate Victory Rush? Best would be an ACE based addon, showing bars and numbers. ^^
|
|
Originally Posted by Amarilia
Natur Enemy Castbar has a pve module which shows the time left on victory rush. Don't know about rampage tho.
|
Thanks for your replies. I just happened to read that the author of NECB abandoned this project so I don't want to start using it.
Also I happen to still level my warrior so no raiding yet ^^; And while leveling my gear does not quite guarantee crits regularily. Oh well, I guess leveling will also work without such an addon.
Also I happen to still level my warrior so no raiding yet ^^; And while leveling my gear does not quite guarantee crits regularily. Oh well, I guess leveling will also work without such an addon.
To get to the discussion about dps warriors in lower tier instances: 2 days ago on my first gruul raid ever, i topped dps meters.
Until i got oneshotted by that strike-that-should-normally-hit-offtank, but hit me because i started dps'ing to soon after that thing that blows everyone away. (I blame intercepting in mid-air) ^^
Until i got oneshotted by that strike-that-should-normally-hit-offtank, but hit me because i started dps'ing to soon after that thing that blows everyone away. (I blame intercepting in mid-air) ^^
|
Originally Posted by Fujitsi
To get to the discussion about dps warriors in lower tier instances: 2 days ago on my first gruul raid ever, i topped dps meters.
Until i got oneshotted by that strike-that-should-normally-hit-offtank, but hit me because i started dps'ing to soon after that thing that blows everyone away. (I blame intercepting in mid-air) ^^ |
|
Originally Posted by Suesse
The offtank was probably not in melee range. You can maybe be careless in the early phases, but as Gruul grows, the hateful strike will definately one-shot you. Ask the raid leader if you can put a symbol on the OT's head, so the melee know when they can approach Gruul.
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God I hate those fights.
Hey,
I'm kind of nubbish to these forums and hardly go on at all, so bear with me!
I'm just wondering whether or not Blood Frenzy (2/4% physical damage from bleed effects) actually does work on ranged damage from hunters, might sound like a stupid question but for some reason my head is telling me it doesn't!
Luuna
I'm kind of nubbish to these forums and hardly go on at all, so bear with me!
I'm just wondering whether or not Blood Frenzy (2/4% physical damage from bleed effects) actually does work on ranged damage from hunters, might sound like a stupid question but for some reason my head is telling me it doesn't!
Luuna
|
Originally Posted by Fujitsi
To get to the discussion about dps warriors in lower tier instances: 2 days ago on my first gruul raid ever, i topped dps meters.
Until i got oneshotted by that strike-that-should-normally-hit-offtank, but hit me because i started dps'ing to soon after that thing that blows everyone away. (I blame intercepting in mid-air) ^^ |
Hehe, yeah Hurtful strikes hurt...
But intercepting back from the kickback seems like a bad idea, you want to get away from other people before the shatter, not go back to the place where the tanks are, you may end up shattering a tank and causing a wipe. You're not really meant to top the dps meters at Gruul as melee dps, we've found it way safer if the melee dps actually run out even before the kickback (to designated spots). Then the tanks can stay close to Gruul during the shatter and get aggro rapidly after it ends.
edit: To the question above, hunter dps is mainly physical (I guess arcane shots are not, but I don't know how much they are used when raiding) thus Blood frenzy works on hunter damage as well.
Has anyone else noticed the bugged defiance? Last week I specced a little weird as MS with defiance and just respecced today before raid, I currently 'exploit' the human racial bug (using sword/mace to double the expertise bonus) and no other expertise gear, but my char sheet shows 16 expertise, only way I can explain this is that the 6 points of expertise from defiance didnt disappear with unlearning the talent. I will run some logs to see if I get any dodges at all, if its not just a display bug I shouldnt get any dodges attacking from the back at all. Now I just pray that if it is really working that noone reports this, I love good bugs 
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
|
Originally Posted by Luuna
Hey,
I'm kind of nubbish to these forums and hardly go on at all, so bear with me! I'm just wondering whether or not Blood Frenzy (2/4% physical damage from bleed effects) actually does work on ranged damage from hunters, might sound like a stupid question but for some reason my head is telling me it doesn't! Luuna |
Edit: Was allready answered 2 posts above, sorry.
Last edited by Jorgen : 01/22/08 at 11:17 PM.
Well my hopes are foiled. It seems that was just a display bug and now its gone 
|
Originally Posted by Fujitsi
To get to the discussion about dps warriors in lower tier instances: 2 days ago on my first gruul raid ever, i topped dps meters.
Until i got oneshotted by that strike-that-should-normally-hit-offtank, but hit me because i started dps'ing to soon after that thing that blows everyone away. (I blame intercepting in mid-air) ^^ |
|
Originally Posted by Dollar
Our dps warriors try to stay above the offtank on threat for the first growth or two when they can just barely take a hit for a full rage bar.
|
For starters any warrior no matter your gear will have trouble staying UNDER an offtank while still maintaining respectable levels of dps, so the offtanks need the HS to build rage, which in turn raises the aggro cap for all melee.
The DPS warriors, especially in the beginning don't need the extra rage to heroic strike as they are over the offtank in the situation you described, then have to basically do nothing to let the offtank pass them.
|
Originally Posted by Quixotic
That is such a terrible idea on so many levels.
For starters any warrior no matter your gear will have trouble staying UNDER an offtank while still maintaining respectable levels of dps, so the offtanks need the HS to build rage, which in turn raises the aggro cap for all melee. The DPS warriors, especially in the beginning don't need the extra rage to heroic strike as they are over the offtank in the situation you described, then have to basically do nothing to let the offtank pass them. |
Just keep a steady DPS throughout the fight, keeping below the OT in threat. Help out with demo-shout and thunderclap if necessary. Then pop your cooldowns and execute away. You may even survive it if you have salvation and the offtank a big enough headstart threatwise!
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Originally Posted by Frith
I agree. Especially since a DPS-warrior has his/her highest DPS below 20%.
|
Well, if you are still in Kara/T4 gear your Execute is still a pretty good skill. What makes it less usefull in T6 is its lack of scaling. And I've seen warrior race up in Omen when executing, especially in T4-5 content. Might be a bit different with the changes to improved Zerkerstance now...
Gruul, like many fights, is about controlling the fight. The idea behind a warrior (regardless of spec) is to provide that control. Even though I'm prot, I usually dps on Gruul to give the younger warriors practice tanking. My job is to stay 3rd on agro so if either main tank or hurtful strike tank die, I can throw on a shield and become the next hurtful strike tank. Even if I only live a short while, I ensure the success of the raid by keeping the squishier dps alive at my expense. If that means you have to limit your damage to stay 3rd on threat, then that is your job to put the raid ahead of your listings. It also means that if the main tank or off tank is about to die, you should probably throw out an intervene and sacrifice yourself for the raid.
In many other fights, your true damage potential is on killing adds. Threat won't matter against Hydross adds or on Solarian and you can really go to town on that. And in those emergency situations, being able to throw on your shield and hit shield wall can save the day. (If you are a dps warrior and don't carry a good shield, you need to rethink your role in the raid group)
The opposite also applies. All warriors, regardless of spec, should also be prepared to do some damage. Prot warriors need to learn how to do significant damage and though we will become threat capped much faster than our arms and fury brothers, agro for us isn't really that bad since we're built to take it (just don't screw the raid by ripping off the main tank). A well geared prot warrior should be able to sustain 600-800 dps by using devastate, whirlwind, and heroic strike. Since 2/3 of our damage will generally come from special attacks, 9% +hit is easily achievable even with the leftover dps gear we are likely to scavenge.
Here are some recent wws reports for people who want to see how the different attacks break down:
Wow Web Stats
In summary, each boss fight presents unique challenges to the raid and it is the warrior's job (and arguably feral druid and ret / prot paladin) to adapt to that fight regardless of spec. Dps warriors are quite flexible and there should always be a need for them in raids as long as they keep an open mind about what their job actually is. Remember that we are first and foremost WARRIORS. Fighting is what we do in all forms; we are not just mindless killing machines but rather a plate wearing class with many useful skills. It is every warrior's job to master them all so they can participate in any situation, regardless of spec or preferred play style.
In many other fights, your true damage potential is on killing adds. Threat won't matter against Hydross adds or on Solarian and you can really go to town on that. And in those emergency situations, being able to throw on your shield and hit shield wall can save the day. (If you are a dps warrior and don't carry a good shield, you need to rethink your role in the raid group)
The opposite also applies. All warriors, regardless of spec, should also be prepared to do some damage. Prot warriors need to learn how to do significant damage and though we will become threat capped much faster than our arms and fury brothers, agro for us isn't really that bad since we're built to take it (just don't screw the raid by ripping off the main tank). A well geared prot warrior should be able to sustain 600-800 dps by using devastate, whirlwind, and heroic strike. Since 2/3 of our damage will generally come from special attacks, 9% +hit is easily achievable even with the leftover dps gear we are likely to scavenge.
Here are some recent wws reports for people who want to see how the different attacks break down:
Wow Web Stats
In summary, each boss fight presents unique challenges to the raid and it is the warrior's job (and arguably feral druid and ret / prot paladin) to adapt to that fight regardless of spec. Dps warriors are quite flexible and there should always be a need for them in raids as long as they keep an open mind about what their job actually is. Remember that we are first and foremost WARRIORS. Fighting is what we do in all forms; we are not just mindless killing machines but rather a plate wearing class with many useful skills. It is every warrior's job to master them all so they can participate in any situation, regardless of spec or preferred play style.
|
Originally Posted by Gruntle
Hehe, yeah Hurtful strikes hurt...
But intercepting back from the kickback seems like a bad idea, you want to get away from other people before the shatter, not go back to the place where the tanks are, you may end up shattering a tank and causing a wipe. You're not really meant to top the dps meters at Gruul as melee dps, we've found it way safer if the melee dps actually run out even before the kickback (to designated spots). Then the tanks can stay close to Gruul during the shatter and get aggro rapidly after it ends. |
) I never got shattered for more then my bandages could heal me, so I dont think it was such a big problem.|
Originally Posted by bobtheorc
In many other fights, your true damage potential is on killing adds. Threat won't matter against Hydross adds or on Solarian and you can really go to town on that.
|
Bob, what's your priority system for dpsing as prot? When I'm prot, I never use whirldwind but just spamming devastate, and using heroic strikes to burn excess rage. Looking at your WWS, I'm guessing you use whirlwind on every cooldown? Does it do more damage then just spamming devastate?
I'm not familiar with prot dps, since as fury, whirlwind does a lot less damage than bloodthirst. And I only use whirlwind when bloodthirst is on cooldown. Which of course devastate doesn't have.
I'm not familiar with prot dps, since as fury, whirlwind does a lot less damage than bloodthirst. And I only use whirlwind when bloodthirst is on cooldown. Which of course devastate doesn't have.
Since Whirlwind does more damage than Devastate (per GCD), it makes sense to use it every cooldown. Every other GCD is obviously a Devastate, and you add in Heroic Strike when rage allows, as a Fury warrior would.
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Originally Posted by LittleHamster
Bob, what's your priority system for dpsing as prot? When I'm prot, I never use whirldwind but just spamming devastate, and using heroic strikes to burn excess rage. Looking at your WWS, I'm guessing you use whirlwind on every cooldown? Does it do more damage then just spamming devastate?
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Gearing is mostly like a Fury Warrior albeit crit will have less value to you (Str generally comes ahead point by point).
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Originally Posted by Moogul
Solarian is fine, but if I go all out on Hydross adds I will die. I can easily put out some ridiculous threat values on multiple targets with WW, SS and Cleave, and once I have 2-3 adds on me, it's pretty dangerous.
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Alternatively, a prot paladin can hold 2-4 and you can definitely put out some good AOE damage without pulling aggro in that situation.
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Originally Posted by Legedi
I'm curious what the numbers are behind what makes a 20/41 build better than a 31/31 (or 30/31) 2H fury build. From what I see it comes down between a weapon spec (using axe right now, and +5% crit seems very good with flurry) and 5% damage, or +10% AP and +250 AP. Or does that +3% hit also help? I forget how much a 2Her needs against bosses.
Where is someone good with excel when you need them?  |
I have a question about geming. I got [Greaves of the Bloodwarder] last night and according to sites like maxdps.com, it is better to gem with +8 str gems than to match the sockets. Is this what everyone tends to do with their dps gear? I'm trying to maximize my 2h dps as best as I can because I'm way behind the other melee at this point 700-800dps.
Does anyone know an addon that shows how much time there is left after a critical strike to activate Rampage and after killing an enemy to activate Victory Rush? Best would be an ACE based addon, showing bars and numbers. ^^
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Originally Posted by Spuddelkopf
Does anyone know an addon that shows how much time there is left after a critical strike to activate Rampage and after killing an enemy to activate Victory Rush? Best would be an ACE based addon, showing bars and numbers. ^^
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Originally Posted by Amarilia
Natur Enemy Castbar has a pve module which shows the time left on victory rush. Don't know about rampage tho.
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Thanks for your replies. I just happened to read that the author of NECB abandoned this project so I don't want to start using it.
Also I happen to still level my warrior so no raiding yet ^^; And while leveling my gear does not quite guarantee crits regularily. Oh well, I guess leveling will also work without such an addon.
Also I happen to still level my warrior so no raiding yet ^^; And while leveling my gear does not quite guarantee crits regularily. Oh well, I guess leveling will also work without such an addon.
To get to the discussion about dps warriors in lower tier instances: 2 days ago on my first gruul raid ever, i topped dps meters.
Until i got oneshotted by that strike-that-should-normally-hit-offtank, but hit me because i started dps'ing to soon after that thing that blows everyone away. (I blame intercepting in mid-air) ^^
Until i got oneshotted by that strike-that-should-normally-hit-offtank, but hit me because i started dps'ing to soon after that thing that blows everyone away. (I blame intercepting in mid-air) ^^
|
Originally Posted by Fujitsi
To get to the discussion about dps warriors in lower tier instances: 2 days ago on my first gruul raid ever, i topped dps meters.
Until i got oneshotted by that strike-that-should-normally-hit-offtank, but hit me because i started dps'ing to soon after that thing that blows everyone away. (I blame intercepting in mid-air) ^^ |
|
Originally Posted by Suesse
The offtank was probably not in melee range. You can maybe be careless in the early phases, but as Gruul grows, the hateful strike will definately one-shot you. Ask the raid leader if you can put a symbol on the OT's head, so the melee know when they can approach Gruul.
|
God I hate those fights.
Hey,
I'm kind of nubbish to these forums and hardly go on at all, so bear with me!
I'm just wondering whether or not Blood Frenzy (2/4% physical damage from bleed effects) actually does work on ranged damage from hunters, might sound like a stupid question but for some reason my head is telling me it doesn't!
Luuna
I'm kind of nubbish to these forums and hardly go on at all, so bear with me!
I'm just wondering whether or not Blood Frenzy (2/4% physical damage from bleed effects) actually does work on ranged damage from hunters, might sound like a stupid question but for some reason my head is telling me it doesn't!
Luuna
|
Originally Posted by Fujitsi
To get to the discussion about dps warriors in lower tier instances: 2 days ago on my first gruul raid ever, i topped dps meters.
Until i got oneshotted by that strike-that-should-normally-hit-offtank, but hit me because i started dps'ing to soon after that thing that blows everyone away. (I blame intercepting in mid-air) ^^ |
Hehe, yeah Hurtful strikes hurt...
But intercepting back from the kickback seems like a bad idea, you want to get away from other people before the shatter, not go back to the place where the tanks are, you may end up shattering a tank and causing a wipe. You're not really meant to top the dps meters at Gruul as melee dps, we've found it way safer if the melee dps actually run out even before the kickback (to designated spots). Then the tanks can stay close to Gruul during the shatter and get aggro rapidly after it ends.
edit: To the question above, hunter dps is mainly physical (I guess arcane shots are not, but I don't know how much they are used when raiding) thus Blood frenzy works on hunter damage as well.
Has anyone else noticed the bugged defiance? Last week I specced a little weird as MS with defiance and just respecced today before raid, I currently 'exploit' the human racial bug (using sword/mace to double the expertise bonus) and no other expertise gear, but my char sheet shows 16 expertise, only way I can explain this is that the 6 points of expertise from defiance didnt disappear with unlearning the talent. I will run some logs to see if I get any dodges at all, if its not just a display bug I shouldnt get any dodges attacking from the back at all. Now I just pray that if it is really working that noone reports this, I love good bugs
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
|
Originally Posted by Luuna
Hey,
I'm kind of nubbish to these forums and hardly go on at all, so bear with me! I'm just wondering whether or not Blood Frenzy (2/4% physical damage from bleed effects) actually does work on ranged damage from hunters, might sound like a stupid question but for some reason my head is telling me it doesn't! Luuna |
Edit: Was allready answered 2 posts above, sorry.
Last edited by Jorgen : 01/22/08 at 11:17 PM.
Well my hopes are foiled. It seems that was just a display bug and now its gone
|
Originally Posted by Fujitsi
To get to the discussion about dps warriors in lower tier instances: 2 days ago on my first gruul raid ever, i topped dps meters.
Until i got oneshotted by that strike-that-should-normally-hit-offtank, but hit me because i started dps'ing to soon after that thing that blows everyone away. (I blame intercepting in mid-air) ^^ |
|
Originally Posted by Dollar
Our dps warriors try to stay above the offtank on threat for the first growth or two when they can just barely take a hit for a full rage bar.
|
For starters any warrior no matter your gear will have trouble staying UNDER an offtank while still maintaining respectable levels of dps, so the offtanks need the HS to build rage, which in turn raises the aggro cap for all melee.
The DPS warriors, especially in the beginning don't need the extra rage to heroic strike as they are over the offtank in the situation you described, then have to basically do nothing to let the offtank pass them.
|
Originally Posted by Quixotic
That is such a terrible idea on so many levels.
For starters any warrior no matter your gear will have trouble staying UNDER an offtank while still maintaining respectable levels of dps, so the offtanks need the HS to build rage, which in turn raises the aggro cap for all melee. The DPS warriors, especially in the beginning don't need the extra rage to heroic strike as they are over the offtank in the situation you described, then have to basically do nothing to let the offtank pass them. |
Just keep a steady DPS throughout the fight, keeping below the OT in threat. Help out with demo-shout and thunderclap if necessary. Then pop your cooldowns and execute away. You may even survive it if you have salvation and the offtank a big enough headstart threatwise!
|
Originally Posted by Frith
I agree. Especially since a DPS-warrior has his/her highest DPS below 20%.
|
Well, if you are still in Kara/T4 gear your Execute is still a pretty good skill. What makes it less usefull in T6 is its lack of scaling. And I've seen warrior race up in Omen when executing, especially in T4-5 content. Might be a bit different with the changes to improved Zerkerstance now...
Gruul, like many fights, is about controlling the fight. The idea behind a warrior (regardless of spec) is to provide that control. Even though I'm prot, I usually dps on Gruul to give the younger warriors practice tanking. My job is to stay 3rd on agro so if either main tank or hurtful strike tank die, I can throw on a shield and become the next hurtful strike tank. Even if I only live a short while, I ensure the success of the raid by keeping the squishier dps alive at my expense. If that means you have to limit your damage to stay 3rd on threat, then that is your job to put the raid ahead of your listings. It also means that if the main tank or off tank is about to die, you should probably throw out an intervene and sacrifice yourself for the raid.
In many other fights, your true damage potential is on killing adds. Threat won't matter against Hydross adds or on Solarian and you can really go to town on that. And in those emergency situations, being able to throw on your shield and hit shield wall can save the day. (If you are a dps warrior and don't carry a good shield, you need to rethink your role in the raid group)
The opposite also applies. All warriors, regardless of spec, should also be prepared to do some damage. Prot warriors need to learn how to do significant damage and though we will become threat capped much faster than our arms and fury brothers, agro for us isn't really that bad since we're built to take it (just don't screw the raid by ripping off the main tank). A well geared prot warrior should be able to sustain 600-800 dps by using devastate, whirlwind, and heroic strike. Since 2/3 of our damage will generally come from special attacks, 9% +hit is easily achievable even with the leftover dps gear we are likely to scavenge.
Here are some recent wws reports for people who want to see how the different attacks break down:
Wow Web Stats
In summary, each boss fight presents unique challenges to the raid and it is the warrior's job (and arguably feral druid and ret / prot paladin) to adapt to that fight regardless of spec. Dps warriors are quite flexible and there should always be a need for them in raids as long as they keep an open mind about what their job actually is. Remember that we are first and foremost WARRIORS. Fighting is what we do in all forms; we are not just mindless killing machines but rather a plate wearing class with many useful skills. It is every warrior's job to master them all so they can participate in any situation, regardless of spec or preferred play style.
In many other fights, your true damage potential is on killing adds. Threat won't matter against Hydross adds or on Solarian and you can really go to town on that. And in those emergency situations, being able to throw on your shield and hit shield wall can save the day. (If you are a dps warrior and don't carry a good shield, you need to rethink your role in the raid group)
The opposite also applies. All warriors, regardless of spec, should also be prepared to do some damage. Prot warriors need to learn how to do significant damage and though we will become threat capped much faster than our arms and fury brothers, agro for us isn't really that bad since we're built to take it (just don't screw the raid by ripping off the main tank). A well geared prot warrior should be able to sustain 600-800 dps by using devastate, whirlwind, and heroic strike. Since 2/3 of our damage will generally come from special attacks, 9% +hit is easily achievable even with the leftover dps gear we are likely to scavenge.
Here are some recent wws reports for people who want to see how the different attacks break down:
Wow Web Stats
In summary, each boss fight presents unique challenges to the raid and it is the warrior's job (and arguably feral druid and ret / prot paladin) to adapt to that fight regardless of spec. Dps warriors are quite flexible and there should always be a need for them in raids as long as they keep an open mind about what their job actually is. Remember that we are first and foremost WARRIORS. Fighting is what we do in all forms; we are not just mindless killing machines but rather a plate wearing class with many useful skills. It is every warrior's job to master them all so they can participate in any situation, regardless of spec or preferred play style.
|
Originally Posted by Gruntle
Hehe, yeah Hurtful strikes hurt...
But intercepting back from the kickback seems like a bad idea, you want to get away from other people before the shatter, not go back to the place where the tanks are, you may end up shattering a tank and causing a wipe. You're not really meant to top the dps meters at Gruul as melee dps, we've found it way safer if the melee dps actually run out even before the kickback (to designated spots). Then the tanks can stay close to Gruul during the shatter and get aggro rapidly after it ends. |
) I never got shattered for more then my bandages could heal me, so I dont think it was such a big problem.|
Originally Posted by bobtheorc
In many other fights, your true damage potential is on killing adds. Threat won't matter against Hydross adds or on Solarian and you can really go to town on that.
|
Bob, what's your priority system for dpsing as prot? When I'm prot, I never use whirldwind but just spamming devastate, and using heroic strikes to burn excess rage. Looking at your WWS, I'm guessing you use whirlwind on every cooldown? Does it do more damage then just spamming devastate?
I'm not familiar with prot dps, since as fury, whirlwind does a lot less damage than bloodthirst. And I only use whirlwind when bloodthirst is on cooldown. Which of course devastate doesn't have.
I'm not familiar with prot dps, since as fury, whirlwind does a lot less damage than bloodthirst. And I only use whirlwind when bloodthirst is on cooldown. Which of course devastate doesn't have.
Since Whirlwind does more damage than Devastate (per GCD), it makes sense to use it every cooldown. Every other GCD is obviously a Devastate, and you add in Heroic Strike when rage allows, as a Fury warrior would.
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Originally Posted by LittleHamster
Bob, what's your priority system for dpsing as prot? When I'm prot, I never use whirldwind but just spamming devastate, and using heroic strikes to burn excess rage. Looking at your WWS, I'm guessing you use whirlwind on every cooldown? Does it do more damage then just spamming devastate?
|
Gearing is mostly like a Fury Warrior albeit crit will have less value to you (Str generally comes ahead point by point).
|
Originally Posted by Moogul
Solarian is fine, but if I go all out on Hydross adds I will die. I can easily put out some ridiculous threat values on multiple targets with WW, SS and Cleave, and once I have 2-3 adds on me, it's pretty dangerous.
|
Alternatively, a prot paladin can hold 2-4 and you can definitely put out some good AOE damage without pulling aggro in that situation.
|
Originally Posted by Legedi
I'm curious what the numbers are behind what makes a 20/41 build better than a 31/31 (or 30/31) 2H fury build. From what I see it comes down between a weapon spec (using axe right now, and +5% crit seems very good with flurry) and 5% damage, or +10% AP and +250 AP. Or does that +3% hit also help? I forget how much a 2Her needs against bosses.
Where is someone good with excel when you need them? |
I have a question about geming. I got [Greaves of the Bloodwarder] last night and according to sites like maxdps.com, it is better to gem with +8 str gems than to match the sockets. Is this what everyone tends to do with their dps gear? I'm trying to maximize my 2h dps as best as I can because I'm way behind the other melee at this point 700-800dps.
|
Originally Posted by Sondlen
The spreadsheet allows you to see the dps differences with the talents. You could probably look at the calculations to figure out what it's doing from there.
I have a question about geming. I got [Greaves of the Bloodwarder] last night and according to sites like maxdps.com, it is better to gem with +8 str gems than to match the sockets. Is this what everyone tends to do with their dps gear? I'm trying to maximize my 2h dps as best as I can because I'm way behind the other melee at this point 700-800dps. |
For what it's worth, when I was fury I went for the socket bonus since str and crit were roughly the same (the spreadsheet will also tell you what stats are worth) so I went with an 8 str gem, a 4 str/crit gem and a 5 str/6 sta gem effectively "won" 1 str and 6 sta by going with the socket bonus (not to mention I needed that blue gem for my RED).
Spreadsheet: [Warrior] DPS Spreadsheet 2.3 and beyond
|
Originally Posted by Liar
You really should consult a spreadsheet for this. The answer will be different for different gear setups such as: What is your current AP, crit, hit or if you need the blue gem to activate [Relentless Earthstorm Diamond] and all that.
For what it's worth, when I was fury I went for the socket bonus since str and crit were roughly the same (the spreadsheet will also tell you what stats are worth) so I went with an 8 str gem, a 4 str/crit gem and a 5 str/6 sta gem effectively "won" 1 str and 6 sta by going with the socket bonus (not to mention I needed that blue gem for my RED). Spreadsheet: [Warrior] DPS Spreadsheet 2.3 and beyond |
I'm not sure where it says the value of my stats is. I just see the dps results, not the relative value of crit or ap at my current amount.
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Originally Posted by Sondlen
The spreadsheet allows you to see the dps differences with the talents. You could probably look at the calculations to figure out what it's doing from there.
I have a question about geming. I got [Greaves of the Bloodwarder] last night and according to sites like maxdps.com, it is better to gem with +8 str gems than to match the sockets. Is this what everyone tends to do with their dps gear? I'm trying to maximize my 2h dps as best as I can because I'm way behind the other melee at this point 700-800dps. |
|
Originally Posted by Jorak
If the sockets have no more than one blue, and if the socket bonus is +4 or more strength or crit, I'll match the sockets. For those pants, you could socket +8str, +4str/+4crit, +4str/+6stam and end up with +20 str, +4 crit, and +6 stam. That's almost identical to +24 str, with +6 free stam to boot.
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Originally Posted by Sondlen
Yeah, I've been using the spreadsheet, I just don't have access to my character at this moment. It makes sense to use the base strength + extra strength method and modify it that way.
I'm not sure where it says the value of my stats is. I just see the dps results, not the relative value of crit or ap at my current amount. |
For this to work you have to use the modded sheet by Grim13, just check the last few pages in the Spreadsheet thread to find a download link.
I apologize if this has been asked already, I honestly put forth effort to look for information before posting. In any case, here goes. Maxdps lists the blessings deck as one of the top Fury trinkets in the game. Does this hold true? I mean it is essentially a constant 120AP buff, but is it really better than Bloodlust, TT, etc? It also has Dragonspine listed very low. Any help would be appreciated 
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Originally Posted by kommon
I apologize if this has been asked already, I honestly put forth effort to look for information before posting. In any case, here goes. Maxdps lists the blessings deck as one of the top Fury trinkets in the game. Does this hold true? I mean it is essentially a constant 120AP buff, but is it really better than Bloodlust, TT, etc? It also has Dragonspine listed very low. Any help would be appreciated
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But if you're in the pre-ArP stage, then yeah, the Crusader Card does hold a pretty strong dps comparingly.
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Originally Posted by kommon
I apologize if this has been asked already, I honestly put forth effort to look for information before posting. In any case, here goes. Maxdps lists the blessings deck as one of the top Fury trinkets in the game. Does this hold true? I mean it is essentially a constant 120AP buff, but is it really better than Bloodlust, TT, etc? It also has Dragonspine listed very low. Any help would be appreciated
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This is great info thanks.
So what I take from this is, Bloodlust and Darkmoon are very comparable. So would the Darkmoon Card and DST be a suitable combo? Also, someone mentioned 'stacking ArP after a certain stat minimum'. When does this level kick into effect?
So what I take from this is, Bloodlust and Darkmoon are very comparable. So would the Darkmoon Card and DST be a suitable combo? Also, someone mentioned 'stacking ArP after a certain stat minimum'. When does this level kick into effect?
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Originally Posted by kommon
Also, someone mentioned 'stacking ArP after a certain stat minimum'. When does this level kick into effect?
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Sure, I could have just made up some arbitrary numbers to tell you when ArP gets better and better, but that would be lying (and yeah, I do get the irony that this is coming from me <_<).
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Originally Posted by Moogul
Solarian is fine, but if I go all out on Hydross adds I will die. I can easily put out some ridiculous threat values on multiple targets with WW, SS and Cleave, and once I have 2-3 adds on me, it's pretty dangerous.
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Originally Posted by LittleHamster
Bob, what's your priority system for dpsing as prot? When I'm prot, I never use whirldwind but just spamming devastate, and using heroic strikes to burn excess rage. Looking at your WWS, I'm guessing you use whirlwind on every cooldown? Does it do more damage then just spamming devastate?
I'm not familiar with prot dps, since as fury, whirlwind does a lot less damage than bloodthirst. And I only use whirlwind when bloodthirst is on cooldown. Which of course devastate doesn't have. |
When choosing prot dps gear, you only really need 9% +hit since most of your damage is special attacks (not that additional +hit is bad). The rest I just go for whatever has the overall highest number of stats or whatever leftovers the dps guys don't want (most fights I am tanking so I'm rather low priority on the dps gear) I count stamina as a useful dps stat when choosing my dps gear because much of the time I will end up having to throw on a shield and help tank anyway (I'm the main tank so I only get to dps when we are training up one of the newer tanks or trying to convince one of the "dps classes" to spec into something useful for raiding)
As a general rule, if the prot warrior is doing more damage than you are, you are doing something wrong.
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Originally Posted by bobtheorc
Early on I only use devastate to help the tank stack sunders and let my rage build up a bit. Once he has a good lead on me
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In response to a few pages ago(sorry, haven't been keeping up with the thread lately):
Unlike popular belief, using a Sword in the arena is still viable. As it stands, Mace and Sword are equal in my eyes. Possibly game breaking stuns versus possible game breaking burst. Personally, I plan to get the sword on my warrior. Being a Gladiator on my warrior, and on a top ranked 3v3 team on the battlegroup since the first week of season three, sword apparently does work.... or my battlegroup is aweful. Not needing a different weapon for PvE is nice, too
I noticed a few people mentioning PvE hybrid builds, and they are certainly still viable. You may not get into a top 20 team without TM anymore, but a flurry build is certainly still good. 33/28 PvE MS is a fantastic build for a lot of setups(double healer warrior comes to mind for 3s, or double warrior triple healer 5s). Also, the Arena gear is a solid substitute for 2h PvE dps... better than tier5 in most cases.
Unlike popular belief, using a Sword in the arena is still viable. As it stands, Mace and Sword are equal in my eyes. Possibly game breaking stuns versus possible game breaking burst. Personally, I plan to get the sword on my warrior. Being a Gladiator on my warrior, and on a top ranked 3v3 team on the battlegroup since the first week of season three, sword apparently does work.... or my battlegroup is aweful. Not needing a different weapon for PvE is nice, too
I noticed a few people mentioning PvE hybrid builds, and they are certainly still viable. You may not get into a top 20 team without TM anymore, but a flurry build is certainly still good. 33/28 PvE MS is a fantastic build for a lot of setups(double healer warrior comes to mind for 3s, or double warrior triple healer 5s). Also, the Arena gear is a solid substitute for 2h PvE dps... better than tier5 in most cases.
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Originally Posted by Touf
This is a terrible idea, you're taking away a ton of threat from your tank.
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Also consider that if I'm in bzrk stance with salvation on, I will be generating 56% less threat (see early in the article) and due to defiance, the tank will be generating 15% more agro per devastate.
Finally consider that my devastates (up to 5 stacked total) do more than just add to my own threat, but add to the tank's threat as well because he will be doing an extra 35 damage for each of mine i stack (up to a total of 5 on the target). This means that he doesn't need to waste his rage on low threat devastates but can rather spend the saved rage on higher threat initial attacks and then higher threat devastates once the 5 are stacked.
Saying that an off tank stacking devastate reduces the main tank's threat is like saying thunderclap or demo shout reduces the main tank's threat. If that were the case, no one would ever use a debuff bitch to maintain debuffs the main tank is too busy to do himself.
I understand that as a prot warrior, I have to be especially careful when forced into a damage dealing alternative role due to the high threat nature of my damaging attacks. But it is also my job as a prot warrior (when not tanking) to keep high on the threat so I can take over if the main tank gets into trouble (sacrificing myself if necessary to buy the healers time to get that all critical heal off). And if the main tank goes down at the end of the fight, it would be my job to throw on the shield (regardless of wearing dps gear), pop last stand and shield wall, and give the raid that extra few seconds to get down that last percent or two.
Granted I'm usually the one tanking and not doing damage. I'm just making the argument for those rare times the prot warrior needs to show that he's more than just a damage speed bump between the boss and the raid.
I think what he was alluding to was the apparent fact that the initial 5 devastates not only put out their inherent threat and threat from damage, but the threat a normal sunder armor would as well(this was added with the addition of the sunder armor effect to devastate in 2.2 or 2.3). This is referenced somewhere in the last few pages of The Protection Warrior thread.
I'm at a loss to understand why a warrior (low on rage mind you) would HS off the bat, when the threat from the abilities you get for not wasting HS rage will get you more "snap aggro" anyhow.
Your first priority as dpsing prot warrior should be debuffing the boss with demo and TC anyways, and doing so helps MT threat substantially as well.
EDIT: The Protection Warrior Guide is the post he was probably referencing.
I'm at a loss to understand why a warrior (low on rage mind you) would HS off the bat, when the threat from the abilities you get for not wasting HS rage will get you more "snap aggro" anyhow.
Your first priority as dpsing prot warrior should be debuffing the boss with demo and TC anyways, and doing so helps MT threat substantially as well.
EDIT: The Protection Warrior Guide is the post he was probably referencing.
The reason I generally lead off with a heroic strike is because if I queue it up before I approach the boss, it will trigger the moment I get within striking range (sometimes shield slam or sunder / devastate can lag a bit and give an out of range result while still on approach to the boss). The heroic strike will generate sufficient agro at the start of the fight to prevent any reasonable healing from pulling the boss off me and an immediate shield slam (or any other global cool down ability you wish to use) gives you two practically simultaneous attacks. The basic theory is that if you miss right off the bat, the boss can run free and cause trouble. Adding a running throw from the decapitator gives you a third attack with nominal threat to insure a stable beginning of the boss fight.
I'm NOT suggesting prot warriors choose to use heroic strike in preference to shield slam but rather queue it up along with a global cool down attack to get two simultaneous attacks at initial contact with the boss. The entire purpose is to minimize the risk of a miss / mitigated attack as well as give some insurance against initial contact lag.
My discussion on prot warrior dps is more academic since most of the time a prot warrior will be tanking but the ability to do damage is still important so you can hold your own when you have to.
I'm NOT suggesting prot warriors choose to use heroic strike in preference to shield slam but rather queue it up along with a global cool down attack to get two simultaneous attacks at initial contact with the boss. The entire purpose is to minimize the risk of a miss / mitigated attack as well as give some insurance against initial contact lag.
My discussion on prot warrior dps is more academic since most of the time a prot warrior will be tanking but the ability to do damage is still important so you can hold your own when you have to.
Here's a question:
My guild is now progressing to the point where Vashj and Kael weapons will be accessable. On looking at the drops, both fang of vashj and rod of the sun king look appealing (my MH is the season 3 mace). Rod of the Sun King could be an excellent weapon based on the extra amount of rage it could provide, while Fang of Vashj sports what I have read to be the best offensive stat (expertise). Searching the forum shows rod of the sun king isnt a terribly great weapon, but I'm wondering if there is someone who uses/used it that can give me their opinion.
To add to my confusion:
Why is wicked edge so high? From what i've read, 15.9 expertise rating is a straight 1% dmg increase by removing 1% dodge from white and yellow attacks, making it a better stat then crit. Fang also has more AP, and I've also read that slower weapons arent that much better then faster ones because of the unsteady rage generation they provide. I bring up wicked edge specifically because I currently have this one. I was wondering what others thoughts are concerning these weapons.
My guild is now progressing to the point where Vashj and Kael weapons will be accessable. On looking at the drops, both fang of vashj and rod of the sun king look appealing (my MH is the season 3 mace). Rod of the Sun King could be an excellent weapon based on the extra amount of rage it could provide, while Fang of Vashj sports what I have read to be the best offensive stat (expertise). Searching the forum shows rod of the sun king isnt a terribly great weapon, but I'm wondering if there is someone who uses/used it that can give me their opinion.
To add to my confusion:
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Originally Posted by Graul
Warglaives
2x same speed season 3 one handers Wicked Edge/Dragonstrike (MH) Season 2 2.60 one hander (MH) Blade of Infamy (OH) Season 2 2.60 one hander (OH) Talon of Azshara = Rising Tide (OH) Swiftsteel Bludgeon OH (this seems to have a better ranking at lower gear levels...) In that order. This is at medium+ BT lvl gear. |
Daggers after the 2.3 change to Whirlwind are generally considered inferior because they have a lower damage range than most other one-hand weapons as well as being normalized at a different speed. I.e a 1.8 speed dagger will generally have a lower damage range than a 2.6 speed weapon, and both weapons will suffer from attack power normalization. You'd be better off taking a fast sword/mace/axe because the damage range is the same and the normalization favors it instead.
The only thing I can think of is the stat distribution on the axe, next to the slow speed. A full percent crit + 50 AP boosts it's own DPS even higher, making it outweigh any other MH/BT comparable weapon.
I'd say get the S3 (same speed) offhand mace and you're done, save the DKP for the phoenix mount or any DPS drops in MH/BT
I'd say get the S3 (same speed) offhand mace and you're done, save the DKP for the phoenix mount or any DPS drops in MH/BT
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Originally Posted by bobtheorc
Stacking sunders helps get the tank their 5 sunders faster making their own devastates more effective. Early on in a fight, a prot warrior is going to be a bit short on the rage and their highest threat attacks will be a simultaneous shield slam and heroic strike (upon initial contact with the boss) followed by revenge (if it's up), and then devastate. Devastate doesn't reach it's potential till all 5 sunders are up due to decreased damage.
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That being said, I usually don't care much about that myself since helping to apply Sunders boosts my own DPS and that of the raid anyway, you just have to be careful at the first few seconds in the fight which is why I suggest you always start off with a WW, then Dev and burn rage via HS. WW, unlike Dev, doesn't have added threat on it.
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Originally Posted by bobtheorc
Saying that an off tank stacking devastate reduces the main tank's threat is like saying thunderclap or demo shout reduces the main tank's threat. If that were the case, no one would ever use a debuff bitch to maintain debuffs the main tank is too busy to do himself.
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If
why would
?
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Originally Posted by Liar
Devastate in it's 5 applications is huge threat
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Originally Posted by Liar
Using Devastate early on will cut on your MTs threat
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Because you Devastate in the MT's place to have Sunder stack to 5. Like I said before, only the first 5 applications of Devastate do bonus threat since they apply Sunder. If you do it for your MT, he will miss out on that bonus which is pretty nice to have early on as a threat buffer.
Just to avoid more confusion, this is how much threat Devastate does:
1st: Damage + 120 +301
2nd: Damage + 135 +301
3rd: Damage + 150 +301
4th: Damage + 165 +301
5th: Damage + 180 +301
>5: Damage + 180
The 301 part is from Sunder Armor which it applies on the first 5 applications.
Just to avoid more confusion, this is how much threat Devastate does:
1st: Damage + 120 +301
2nd: Damage + 135 +301
3rd: Damage + 150 +301
4th: Damage + 165 +301
5th: Damage + 180 +301
>5: Damage + 180
The 301 part is from Sunder Armor which it applies on the first 5 applications.
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Originally Posted by KooZ
The only thing I can think of is the stat distribution on the axe, next to the slow speed. A full percent crit + 50 AP boosts it's own DPS even higher, making it outweigh any other MH/BT comparable weapon.
I'd say get the S3 (same speed) offhand mace and you're done, save the DKP for the phoenix mount or any DPS drops in MH/BT |
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Originally Posted by Liar
Because you Devastate in the MT's place to have Sunder stack to 5. Like I said before, only the first 5 applications of Devastate do bonus threat since they apply Sunder. If you do it for your MT, he will miss out on that bonus which is pretty nice to have early on as a threat buffer.
Just to avoid more confusion, this is how much threat Devastate does: 1st: Damage + 120 +301 2nd: Damage + 135 +301 3rd: Damage + 150 +301 4th: Damage + 165 +301 5th: Damage + 180 +301 >5: Damage + 180 The 301 part is from Sunder Armor which it applies on the first 5 applications. |
Now, I realize the way you say it works actually benefits us at exactly the time when threat gen is usually most critical and especially since the only alternative and most logical way the new dev should work is simply by never giving any sunder armor-based threat at all (since applying it all the time would likely be overpowered), I don't want to really complain about it. Just thought this works in a rather strange way if what you say is true.
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Originally Posted by Sondlen
The spreadsheet allows you to see the dps differences with the talents. You could probably look at the calculations to figure out what it's doing from there.
I have a question about geming. I got [Greaves of the Bloodwarder] last night and according to sites like maxdps.com, it is better to gem with +8 str gems than to match the sockets. Is this what everyone tends to do with their dps gear? I'm trying to maximize my 2h dps as best as I can because I'm way behind the other melee at this point 700-800dps. |
For what it's worth, when I was fury I went for the socket bonus since str and crit were roughly the same (the spreadsheet will also tell you what stats are worth) so I went with an 8 str gem, a 4 str/crit gem and a 5 str/6 sta gem effectively "won" 1 str and 6 sta by going with the socket bonus (not to mention I needed that blue gem for my RED).
Spreadsheet: [Warrior] DPS Spreadsheet 2.3 and beyond
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Originally Posted by Liar
You really should consult a spreadsheet for this. The answer will be different for different gear setups such as: What is your current AP, crit, hit or if you need the blue gem to activate [Relentless Earthstorm Diamond] and all that.
For what it's worth, when I was fury I went for the socket bonus since str and crit were roughly the same (the spreadsheet will also tell you what stats are worth) so I went with an 8 str gem, a 4 str/crit gem and a 5 str/6 sta gem effectively "won" 1 str and 6 sta by going with the socket bonus (not to mention I needed that blue gem for my RED). Spreadsheet: [Warrior] DPS Spreadsheet 2.3 and beyond |
I'm not sure where it says the value of my stats is. I just see the dps results, not the relative value of crit or ap at my current amount.
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Originally Posted by Sondlen
The spreadsheet allows you to see the dps differences with the talents. You could probably look at the calculations to figure out what it's doing from there.
I have a question about geming. I got [Greaves of the Bloodwarder] last night and according to sites like maxdps.com, it is better to gem with +8 str gems than to match the sockets. Is this what everyone tends to do with their dps gear? I'm trying to maximize my 2h dps as best as I can because I'm way behind the other melee at this point 700-800dps. |
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Originally Posted by Jorak
If the sockets have no more than one blue, and if the socket bonus is +4 or more strength or crit, I'll match the sockets. For those pants, you could socket +8str, +4str/+4crit, +4str/+6stam and end up with +20 str, +4 crit, and +6 stam. That's almost identical to +24 str, with +6 free stam to boot.
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Originally Posted by Sondlen
Yeah, I've been using the spreadsheet, I just don't have access to my character at this moment. It makes sense to use the base strength + extra strength method and modify it that way.
I'm not sure where it says the value of my stats is. I just see the dps results, not the relative value of crit or ap at my current amount. |
For this to work you have to use the modded sheet by Grim13, just check the last few pages in the Spreadsheet thread to find a download link.
I apologize if this has been asked already, I honestly put forth effort to look for information before posting. In any case, here goes. Maxdps lists the blessings deck as one of the top Fury trinkets in the game. Does this hold true? I mean it is essentially a constant 120AP buff, but is it really better than Bloodlust, TT, etc? It also has Dragonspine listed very low. Any help would be appreciated
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Originally Posted by kommon
I apologize if this has been asked already, I honestly put forth effort to look for information before posting. In any case, here goes. Maxdps lists the blessings deck as one of the top Fury trinkets in the game. Does this hold true? I mean it is essentially a constant 120AP buff, but is it really better than Bloodlust, TT, etc? It also has Dragonspine listed very low. Any help would be appreciated
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But if you're in the pre-ArP stage, then yeah, the Crusader Card does hold a pretty strong dps comparingly.
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Originally Posted by kommon
I apologize if this has been asked already, I honestly put forth effort to look for information before posting. In any case, here goes. Maxdps lists the blessings deck as one of the top Fury trinkets in the game. Does this hold true? I mean it is essentially a constant 120AP buff, but is it really better than Bloodlust, TT, etc? It also has Dragonspine listed very low. Any help would be appreciated
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This is great info thanks.
So what I take from this is, Bloodlust and Darkmoon are very comparable. So would the Darkmoon Card and DST be a suitable combo? Also, someone mentioned 'stacking ArP after a certain stat minimum'. When does this level kick into effect?
So what I take from this is, Bloodlust and Darkmoon are very comparable. So would the Darkmoon Card and DST be a suitable combo? Also, someone mentioned 'stacking ArP after a certain stat minimum'. When does this level kick into effect?
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Originally Posted by kommon
Also, someone mentioned 'stacking ArP after a certain stat minimum'. When does this level kick into effect?
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Sure, I could have just made up some arbitrary numbers to tell you when ArP gets better and better, but that would be lying (and yeah, I do get the irony that this is coming from me <_<).
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Originally Posted by Moogul
Solarian is fine, but if I go all out on Hydross adds I will die. I can easily put out some ridiculous threat values on multiple targets with WW, SS and Cleave, and once I have 2-3 adds on me, it's pretty dangerous.
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Originally Posted by LittleHamster
Bob, what's your priority system for dpsing as prot? When I'm prot, I never use whirldwind but just spamming devastate, and using heroic strikes to burn excess rage. Looking at your WWS, I'm guessing you use whirlwind on every cooldown? Does it do more damage then just spamming devastate?
I'm not familiar with prot dps, since as fury, whirlwind does a lot less damage than bloodthirst. And I only use whirlwind when bloodthirst is on cooldown. Which of course devastate doesn't have. |
When choosing prot dps gear, you only really need 9% +hit since most of your damage is special attacks (not that additional +hit is bad). The rest I just go for whatever has the overall highest number of stats or whatever leftovers the dps guys don't want (most fights I am tanking so I'm rather low priority on the dps gear) I count stamina as a useful dps stat when choosing my dps gear because much of the time I will end up having to throw on a shield and help tank anyway (I'm the main tank so I only get to dps when we are training up one of the newer tanks or trying to convince one of the "dps classes" to spec into something useful for raiding)
As a general rule, if the prot warrior is doing more damage than you are, you are doing something wrong.
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Originally Posted by bobtheorc
Early on I only use devastate to help the tank stack sunders and let my rage build up a bit. Once he has a good lead on me
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In response to a few pages ago(sorry, haven't been keeping up with the thread lately):
Unlike popular belief, using a Sword in the arena is still viable. As it stands, Mace and Sword are equal in my eyes. Possibly game breaking stuns versus possible game breaking burst. Personally, I plan to get the sword on my warrior. Being a Gladiator on my warrior, and on a top ranked 3v3 team on the battlegroup since the first week of season three, sword apparently does work.... or my battlegroup is aweful. Not needing a different weapon for PvE is nice, too
I noticed a few people mentioning PvE hybrid builds, and they are certainly still viable. You may not get into a top 20 team without TM anymore, but a flurry build is certainly still good. 33/28 PvE MS is a fantastic build for a lot of setups(double healer warrior comes to mind for 3s, or double warrior triple healer 5s). Also, the Arena gear is a solid substitute for 2h PvE dps... better than tier5 in most cases.
Unlike popular belief, using a Sword in the arena is still viable. As it stands, Mace and Sword are equal in my eyes. Possibly game breaking stuns versus possible game breaking burst. Personally, I plan to get the sword on my warrior. Being a Gladiator on my warrior, and on a top ranked 3v3 team on the battlegroup since the first week of season three, sword apparently does work.... or my battlegroup is aweful. Not needing a different weapon for PvE is nice, too
I noticed a few people mentioning PvE hybrid builds, and they are certainly still viable. You may not get into a top 20 team without TM anymore, but a flurry build is certainly still good. 33/28 PvE MS is a fantastic build for a lot of setups(double healer warrior comes to mind for 3s, or double warrior triple healer 5s). Also, the Arena gear is a solid substitute for 2h PvE dps... better than tier5 in most cases.
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Originally Posted by Touf
This is a terrible idea, you're taking away a ton of threat from your tank.
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Also consider that if I'm in bzrk stance with salvation on, I will be generating 56% less threat (see early in the article) and due to defiance, the tank will be generating 15% more agro per devastate.
Finally consider that my devastates (up to 5 stacked total) do more than just add to my own threat, but add to the tank's threat as well because he will be doing an extra 35 damage for each of mine i stack (up to a total of 5 on the target). This means that he doesn't need to waste his rage on low threat devastates but can rather spend the saved rage on higher threat initial attacks and then higher threat devastates once the 5 are stacked.
Saying that an off tank stacking devastate reduces the main tank's threat is like saying thunderclap or demo shout reduces the main tank's threat. If that were the case, no one would ever use a debuff bitch to maintain debuffs the main tank is too busy to do himself.
I understand that as a prot warrior, I have to be especially careful when forced into a damage dealing alternative role due to the high threat nature of my damaging attacks. But it is also my job as a prot warrior (when not tanking) to keep high on the threat so I can take over if the main tank gets into trouble (sacrificing myself if necessary to buy the healers time to get that all critical heal off). And if the main tank goes down at the end of the fight, it would be my job to throw on the shield (regardless of wearing dps gear), pop last stand and shield wall, and give the raid that extra few seconds to get down that last percent or two.
Granted I'm usually the one tanking and not doing damage. I'm just making the argument for those rare times the prot warrior needs to show that he's more than just a damage speed bump between the boss and the raid.
I think what he was alluding to was the apparent fact that the initial 5 devastates not only put out their inherent threat and threat from damage, but the threat a normal sunder armor would as well(this was added with the addition of the sunder armor effect to devastate in 2.2 or 2.3). This is referenced somewhere in the last few pages of The Protection Warrior thread.
I'm at a loss to understand why a warrior (low on rage mind you) would HS off the bat, when the threat from the abilities you get for not wasting HS rage will get you more "snap aggro" anyhow.
Your first priority as dpsing prot warrior should be debuffing the boss with demo and TC anyways, and doing so helps MT threat substantially as well.
EDIT: The Protection Warrior Guide is the post he was probably referencing.
I'm at a loss to understand why a warrior (low on rage mind you) would HS off the bat, when the threat from the abilities you get for not wasting HS rage will get you more "snap aggro" anyhow.
Your first priority as dpsing prot warrior should be debuffing the boss with demo and TC anyways, and doing so helps MT threat substantially as well.
EDIT: The Protection Warrior Guide is the post he was probably referencing.
The reason I generally lead off with a heroic strike is because if I queue it up before I approach the boss, it will trigger the moment I get within striking range (sometimes shield slam or sunder / devastate can lag a bit and give an out of range result while still on approach to the boss). The heroic strike will generate sufficient agro at the start of the fight to prevent any reasonable healing from pulling the boss off me and an immediate shield slam (or any other global cool down ability you wish to use) gives you two practically simultaneous attacks. The basic theory is that if you miss right off the bat, the boss can run free and cause trouble. Adding a running throw from the decapitator gives you a third attack with nominal threat to insure a stable beginning of the boss fight.
I'm NOT suggesting prot warriors choose to use heroic strike in preference to shield slam but rather queue it up along with a global cool down attack to get two simultaneous attacks at initial contact with the boss. The entire purpose is to minimize the risk of a miss / mitigated attack as well as give some insurance against initial contact lag.
My discussion on prot warrior dps is more academic since most of the time a prot warrior will be tanking but the ability to do damage is still important so you can hold your own when you have to.
I'm NOT suggesting prot warriors choose to use heroic strike in preference to shield slam but rather queue it up along with a global cool down attack to get two simultaneous attacks at initial contact with the boss. The entire purpose is to minimize the risk of a miss / mitigated attack as well as give some insurance against initial contact lag.
My discussion on prot warrior dps is more academic since most of the time a prot warrior will be tanking but the ability to do damage is still important so you can hold your own when you have to.
Here's a question:
My guild is now progressing to the point where Vashj and Kael weapons will be accessable. On looking at the drops, both fang of vashj and rod of the sun king look appealing (my MH is the season 3 mace). Rod of the Sun King could be an excellent weapon based on the extra amount of rage it could provide, while Fang of Vashj sports what I have read to be the best offensive stat (expertise). Searching the forum shows rod of the sun king isnt a terribly great weapon, but I'm wondering if there is someone who uses/used it that can give me their opinion.
To add to my confusion:
Why is wicked edge so high? From what i've read, 15.9 expertise rating is a straight 1% dmg increase by removing 1% dodge from white and yellow attacks, making it a better stat then crit. Fang also has more AP, and I've also read that slower weapons arent that much better then faster ones because of the unsteady rage generation they provide. I bring up wicked edge specifically because I currently have this one. I was wondering what others thoughts are concerning these weapons.
My guild is now progressing to the point where Vashj and Kael weapons will be accessable. On looking at the drops, both fang of vashj and rod of the sun king look appealing (my MH is the season 3 mace). Rod of the Sun King could be an excellent weapon based on the extra amount of rage it could provide, while Fang of Vashj sports what I have read to be the best offensive stat (expertise). Searching the forum shows rod of the sun king isnt a terribly great weapon, but I'm wondering if there is someone who uses/used it that can give me their opinion.
To add to my confusion:
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Originally Posted by Graul
Warglaives
2x same speed season 3 one handers Wicked Edge/Dragonstrike (MH) Season 2 2.60 one hander (MH) Blade of Infamy (OH) Season 2 2.60 one hander (OH) Talon of Azshara = Rising Tide (OH) Swiftsteel Bludgeon OH (this seems to have a better ranking at lower gear levels...) In that order. This is at medium+ BT lvl gear. |
Daggers after the 2.3 change to Whirlwind are generally considered inferior because they have a lower damage range than most other one-hand weapons as well as being normalized at a different speed. I.e a 1.8 speed dagger will generally have a lower damage range than a 2.6 speed weapon, and both weapons will suffer from attack power normalization. You'd be better off taking a fast sword/mace/axe because the damage range is the same and the normalization favors it instead.
The only thing I can think of is the stat distribution on the axe, next to the slow speed. A full percent crit + 50 AP boosts it's own DPS even higher, making it outweigh any other MH/BT comparable weapon.
I'd say get the S3 (same speed) offhand mace and you're done, save the DKP for the phoenix mount or any DPS drops in MH/BT
I'd say get the S3 (same speed) offhand mace and you're done, save the DKP for the phoenix mount or any DPS drops in MH/BT
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Originally Posted by bobtheorc
Stacking sunders helps get the tank their 5 sunders faster making their own devastates more effective. Early on in a fight, a prot warrior is going to be a bit short on the rage and their highest threat attacks will be a simultaneous shield slam and heroic strike (upon initial contact with the boss) followed by revenge (if it's up), and then devastate. Devastate doesn't reach it's potential till all 5 sunders are up due to decreased damage.
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That being said, I usually don't care much about that myself since helping to apply Sunders boosts my own DPS and that of the raid anyway, you just have to be careful at the first few seconds in the fight which is why I suggest you always start off with a WW, then Dev and burn rage via HS. WW, unlike Dev, doesn't have added threat on it.
|
Originally Posted by bobtheorc
Saying that an off tank stacking devastate reduces the main tank's threat is like saying thunderclap or demo shout reduces the main tank's threat. If that were the case, no one would ever use a debuff bitch to maintain debuffs the main tank is too busy to do himself.
|
If
why would
?
|
Originally Posted by Liar
Devastate in it's 5 applications is huge threat
|
|
Originally Posted by Liar
Using Devastate early on will cut on your MTs threat
|
Because you Devastate in the MT's place to have Sunder stack to 5. Like I said before, only the first 5 applications of Devastate do bonus threat since they apply Sunder. If you do it for your MT, he will miss out on that bonus which is pretty nice to have early on as a threat buffer.
Just to avoid more confusion, this is how much threat Devastate does:
1st: Damage + 120 +301
2nd: Damage + 135 +301
3rd: Damage + 150 +301
4th: Damage + 165 +301
5th: Damage + 180 +301
>5: Damage + 180
The 301 part is from Sunder Armor which it applies on the first 5 applications.
Just to avoid more confusion, this is how much threat Devastate does:
1st: Damage + 120 +301
2nd: Damage + 135 +301
3rd: Damage + 150 +301
4th: Damage + 165 +301
5th: Damage + 180 +301
>5: Damage + 180
The 301 part is from Sunder Armor which it applies on the first 5 applications.
|
Originally Posted by KooZ
The only thing I can think of is the stat distribution on the axe, next to the slow speed. A full percent crit + 50 AP boosts it's own DPS even higher, making it outweigh any other MH/BT comparable weapon.
I'd say get the S3 (same speed) offhand mace and you're done, save the DKP for the phoenix mount or any DPS drops in MH/BT |
|
Originally Posted by Liar
Because you Devastate in the MT's place to have Sunder stack to 5. Like I said before, only the first 5 applications of Devastate do bonus threat since they apply Sunder. If you do it for your MT, he will miss out on that bonus which is pretty nice to have early on as a threat buffer.
Just to avoid more confusion, this is how much threat Devastate does: 1st: Damage + 120 +301 2nd: Damage + 135 +301 3rd: Damage + 150 +301 4th: Damage + 165 +301 5th: Damage + 180 +301 >5: Damage + 180 The 301 part is from Sunder Armor which it applies on the first 5 applications. |
Now, I realize the way you say it works actually benefits us at exactly the time when threat gen is usually most critical and especially since the only alternative and most logical way the new dev should work is simply by never giving any sunder armor-based threat at all (since applying it all the time would likely be overpowered), I don't want to really complain about it. Just thought this works in a rather strange way if what you say is true.
Warglaives
2x same speed season 3 one handers
Wicked Edge/Dragonstrike (MH)
Season 2 2.60 one hander (MH)
Blade of Infamy (OH)
Season 2 2.60 one hander (OH)
Talon of Azshara = Rising Tide (OH)
Swiftsteel Bludgeon OH (this seems to have a better ranking at lower gear levels...)
Suprised I didn't see Alar's MH and the Axe that he also drops on this list, both are compariable to Talon from what I can tell.
2x same speed season 3 one handers
Wicked Edge/Dragonstrike (MH)
Season 2 2.60 one hander (MH)
Blade of Infamy (OH)
Season 2 2.60 one hander (OH)
Talon of Azshara = Rising Tide (OH)
Swiftsteel Bludgeon OH (this seems to have a better ranking at lower gear levels...)
Suprised I didn't see Alar's MH and the Axe that he also drops on this list, both are compariable to Talon from what I can tell.
|
Originally Posted by keshian
Warglaives
2x same speed season 3 one handers Wicked Edge/Dragonstrike (MH) Season 2 2.60 one hander (MH) Blade of Infamy (OH) Season 2 2.60 one hander (OH) Talon of Azshara = Rising Tide (OH) Swiftsteel Bludgeon OH (this seems to have a better ranking at lower gear levels...) Suprised I didn't see Alar's MH and the Axe that he also drops on this list, both are compariable to Talon from what I can tell. |
I had never had any luck using the spreadsheet since I don't have excel at home and the site that links to it is blocked at my work. I use maxdps.com to help me make a lot of my gear decisions. I was wondering what a lot of people that look at the spreadsheet here and maxdps.com think of how they compare on accuracy in choosing gear. Also, is the Syphon not a good weapon in the eyes of most here?
|
Originally Posted by Kemeran
I had never had any luck using the spreadsheet since I don't have excel at home and the site that links to it is blocked at my work.
|
|
Originally Posted by Kemeran
Furthermore, I am suprised that I don't see the Syphon of the Nathrezim getting more respect as a DPS weapon in this thread. My guild started HS/BT recently and I was catching some grief last night for passing on the Rising Tide when it dropped. I feel that it is a pure sidegrade to the Talon of Azshara and Merciless Gladiator's Slicer that I have had for some time. I came here to the forums to see if many of the discussion touched on how the weapons rated against each other. My weapon wish list going into T6 (besides the warglaives) was a Blade of Infamy and a Syphon of the Nathrezim, especially since I could catch 10 expertise human racial bonus that way.
I had never had any luck using the spreadsheet since I don't have excel at home and the site that links to it is blocked at my work. I use maxdps.com to help me make a lot of my gear decisions. I was wondering what a lot of people that look at the spreadsheet here and maxdps.com think of how they compare on accuracy in choosing gear. Also, is the Syphon not a good weapon in the eyes of most here? |
You may want to read just a few pages back about maxdps.com. But I'll repeat it, since a lot of people seem to be using it. Maxdps.com does not include heroic strike damage and I suspect that it has no rage generation calculations. It will not be accurate and the gear evaluation will be less accurate than the one in the spreadsheet. I guess it's good as a first approximation, but in my opinion the spreadsheet beats it by miles (also, the spreadsheet is transparent, you can see how the calculations are made). E.g. as far as I can tell you cannot set your race in the page, thus racials aren't even modeled.
|
Originally Posted by Liar
Because you Devastate in the MT's place to have Sunder stack to 5. Like I said before, only the first 5 applications of Devastate do bonus threat since they apply Sunder. If you do it for your MT, he will miss out on that bonus which is pretty nice to have early on as a threat buffer.
Just to avoid more confusion, this is how much threat Devastate does: 1st: Damage + 120 +301 2nd: Damage + 135 +301 3rd: Damage + 150 +301 4th: Damage + 165 +301 5th: Damage + 180 +301 >5: Damage + 180 The 301 part is from Sunder Armor which it applies on the first 5 applications. |
On a side note, what is the bonus threat from shield slam and heroic strike?
Shield Slam 307
Revenge 200
Sunder Armor 301
Heroic Strike 196
Cleave 130 (Split)
Revenge 200
Sunder Armor 301
Heroic Strike 196
Cleave 130 (Split)
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
|
Originally Posted by keshian
Warglaives
2x same speed season 3 one handers Wicked Edge/Dragonstrike (MH) Season 2 2.60 one hander (MH) Blade of Infamy (OH) Season 2 2.60 one hander (OH) Talon of Azshara = Rising Tide (OH) Swiftsteel Bludgeon OH (this seems to have a better ranking at lower gear levels...) Suprised I didn't see Alar's MH and the Axe that he also drops on this list, both are compariable to Talon from what I can tell. |
| Furthermore, I am suprised that I don't see the Syphon of the Nathrezim getting more respect as a DPS weapon in this thread. My guild started HS/BT recently and I was catching some grief last night for passing on the Rising Tide when it dropped. I feel that it is a pure sidegrade to the Talon of Azshara and Merciless Gladiator's Slicer that I have had for some time. |
Last edited by Graul : 01/25/08 at 4:19 AM.
Sorry if this has already been covered, but tonight, while I was skilling 1H Maces on the Servant of Allistarj mobs in Blasted Lands, I noticed that if I crit when flurry has 1 charge left, it doesn't get refreshed, and the buff is removed. Is this known? It seems a little.. lame.
|
Originally Posted by Tscullor
Sorry if this has already been covered, but tonight, while I was skilling 1H Maces on the Servant of Allistarj mobs in Blasted Lands, I noticed that if I crit when flurry has 1 charge left, it doesn't get refreshed, and the buff is removed. Is this known? It seems a little.. lame.
|
Yeah it's been broken in that way since 2.3. Shamans have the same bug. There was a blue post saying that it would get fixed after 2.3.2, but that post seems to have vanished (i get an error when trying to open the link to it). It's not a game breaking bug but it does bring down flurry uptime for DW fury by 5% or so.
|
Originally Posted by Apate
You could e-mail it to yourself, or put it on a disk.
|
Thanks for the protip. I have no idea why I never thought of that before. Now here I am at work messing with the spreadsheet I e-mailed myself having a blast. Well, maybe not a blast, man the BT/HS weapons are underwhelming. I remember being so excited upon getting into SSC/TK with the weapons that were available in comparison to T4 content. Anything aside from the warglaives seems like a waste of gold for enchanting mats. After being able to put myself DW a Rising Tide/Merc Slicer into the spreadsheet I am glad I passed on the weapon for it to go to a resto shaman for fun. At least he will be appreciative of a cool off-spec toy. Blizzard was definitly asleep at the wheel itemizing the melee weapons in T6 it seems. I am still messing with a lot of configurations on the sheet, but what are most people favorite MH/OH combo besides the warglaives of course. I doubt if my guild will be farming Illidian to the point of spreading around a bunch of glaives, and there really wouldn't be a decision between warglaives and ???
[Deadly Cuffs] vs [Furious Shackles] discuss.
|
Originally Posted by seasonlight
[Deadly Cuffs] vs [Furious Shackles] discuss.
|
|
Originally Posted by seasonlight
[Deadly Cuffs] vs [Furious Shackles] discuss.
|
There you go, nothing more needs to be said.
Hi all! For of all, I apologize for the bad english I use; I'm french, and I don't speak english very well.
I have two question (I know they've allready been partly answered in the previous pages, but I didn't see anything very clear).
Here is the first one: In your opinion, what is the hit rating a 17/44 should aim? I always thought that, as you are getting t5/t6, you need far less hit, since the white hits are replaced by many HS. But I still see furies in BT with 220+ hit... So, what do you think?
The second question is about the enchant in OH: I thought that mongoose was far better than potency here, all the more so as I have a slow OH. But according to the spreadsheet, potency is better, and by far.... do you think the spreadsheet is right here?
I have two question (I know they've allready been partly answered in the previous pages, but I didn't see anything very clear).
Here is the first one: In your opinion, what is the hit rating a 17/44 should aim? I always thought that, as you are getting t5/t6, you need far less hit, since the white hits are replaced by many HS. But I still see furies in BT with 220+ hit... So, what do you think?
The second question is about the enchant in OH: I thought that mongoose was far better than potency here, all the more so as I have a slow OH. But according to the spreadsheet, potency is better, and by far.... do you think the spreadsheet is right here?
Does anyone has a good idea, where a fury warrior could test his dmg in a non-raid situation? I got some new items, which need some testing, but it seems it's hard to find something similiar as the outland mobs.
The spreadsheet might give a good overview but it's set to an optimal setting. A simulator might bring more interesting results, but this seems out of reach.
The spreadsheet might give a good overview but it's set to an optimal setting. A simulator might bring more interesting results, but this seems out of reach.
|
Originally Posted by Sharyl
Hi all! For of all, I apologize for the bad english I use; I'm french, and I don't speak english very well.
I have two question (I know they've allready been partly answered in the previous pages, but I didn't see anything very clear). Here is the first one: In your opinion, what is the hit rating a 17/44 should aim? I always thought that, as you are getting t5/t6, you need far less hit, since the white hits are replaced by many HS. But I still see furies in BT with 220+ hit... So, what do you think? The second question is about the enchant in OH: I thought that mongoose was far better than potency here, all the more so as I have a slow OH. But according to the spreadsheet, potency is better, and by far.... do you think the spreadsheet is right here? |
Other than that its just like any other stat in that it has a weight (fairly low one) compared to other stats.
Saying that one should aim for a particular number of a certain stat (be it hit, crit, ap or whatever) just shows that you dont understand the game mechanics.
When looking at an item you always need to take into consideration the total benefit of all stats on the item.
Now we say that hit rating is a bad stat and it is. But it is also present on several items who as a whole are very good and that is why you end up with many warriors having high hit ratings. Not because its a particulary good stat but because it happens to be on items that are good.
|
Originally Posted by Brissa
Other than that its just like any other stat in that it has a weight (fairly low one) compared to other stats.
Saying that one should aim for a particular number of a certain stat (be it hit, crit, ap or whatever) just shows that you dont understand the game mechanics. When looking at an item you always need to take into consideration the total benefit of all stats on the item. Now we say that hit rating is a bad stat and it is. But it is also present on several items who as a whole are very good and that is why you end up with many warriors having high hit ratings. Not because its a particulary good stat but because it happens to be on items that are good. |
And I know some people reach high hit ratings the way you describe it (because it is present in items which are good anyways, and also give hit rating); but this in not what I was refering to.
I thought about people who have already 240 hit, and still use +8 hit rat. gems and surefooted. What is your opinion about it?
Finally, I know what you mean " Saying that one should aim for a particular number of a certain stat (be it hit, crit, ap or whatever) just shows that you dont understand the game mechanics.", but you are warong in a way: one should aim a particular number of a certain stat regarding to the others stats he has. I mean, it semms kind of stupid to continue socketing with crit gems if you have 42% crit and 1000 AP, isn t it? That's exactly what I meant: being in t5 (more or less), which means having around 33% crit and 1800 AP, what should one aim for hit rating, so that his stats will be "well balanced"?
Once again, I apologize for the english mistakes ><
First aim: 9% so special attacks never miss.
Second aim: enough hit so BT & WW is always on cooldown and you can put some HS in the cycles.
the rest is anger management and i would say personal preference. I play with 180-220 hit rating, and I´m happy with it, but the rating comes from Items and not from Gems. never gem for hit after 9%.
As Brissa said, hit comes from items which are overall better then the item you used in the slot before.
You can´t give any numbers in rating which you should aim for. It is all personal preference.
But from my opinion: If you reach 170-200hit rating without gems you will do well.
Also i would not enchant surefooted; 12agi is the way to go in my opinion.
Second aim: enough hit so BT & WW is always on cooldown and you can put some HS in the cycles.
the rest is anger management and i would say personal preference. I play with 180-220 hit rating, and I´m happy with it, but the rating comes from Items and not from Gems. never gem for hit after 9%.
As Brissa said, hit comes from items which are overall better then the item you used in the slot before.
You can´t give any numbers in rating which you should aim for. It is all personal preference.
But from my opinion: If you reach 170-200hit rating without gems you will do well.
Also i would not enchant surefooted; 12agi is the way to go in my opinion.
|
Originally Posted by Langie
Also i would not enchant surefooted; 12agi is the way to go in my opinion.
|
|
Originally Posted by Sharyl
but you are warong in a way: one should aim a particular number of a certain stat regarding to the others stats he has. I mean, it semms kind of stupid to continue socketing with crit gems if you have 42% crit and 1000 AP, isn t it? That's exactly what I meant: being in t5 (more or less), which means having around 33% crit and 1800 AP, what should one aim for hit rating, so that his stats will be "well balanced"?
Once again, I apologize for the english mistakes >< |
Socketing hit gems is silly as a fury or ms warrior its something you should never do(when your over the 9% cap). Interestingly enough the spreadsheet tells a very different tale for prot where hit seems to be one of the better stats.
|
Originally Posted by Brissa
Interestingly enough the spreadsheet tells a very different tale for prot where hit seems to be one of the better stats.
|
Start at post 451 to see how to fix it.
Ah, good to know. It didnt seem to make sense at all.
So is the 4-swing flurry with same speed weapons still around? I've heard from some sources that the mechanic was removed some time ago, and from others that it still exists. Tried searching these forums but found no definite answer. Thanks.
|
Originally Posted by Lapp
So is the 4-swing flurry with same speed weapons still around? I've heard from some sources that the mechanic was removed some time ago, and from others that it still exists. Tried searching these forums but found no definite answer. Thanks.
|
Warglaives
2x same speed season 3 one handers
Wicked Edge/Dragonstrike (MH)
Season 2 2.60 one hander (MH)
Blade of Infamy (OH)
Season 2 2.60 one hander (OH)
Talon of Azshara = Rising Tide (OH)
Swiftsteel Bludgeon OH (this seems to have a better ranking at lower gear levels...)
Suprised I didn't see Alar's MH and the Axe that he also drops on this list, both are compariable to Talon from what I can tell.
2x same speed season 3 one handers
Wicked Edge/Dragonstrike (MH)
Season 2 2.60 one hander (MH)
Blade of Infamy (OH)
Season 2 2.60 one hander (OH)
Talon of Azshara = Rising Tide (OH)
Swiftsteel Bludgeon OH (this seems to have a better ranking at lower gear levels...)
Suprised I didn't see Alar's MH and the Axe that he also drops on this list, both are compariable to Talon from what I can tell.
|
Originally Posted by keshian
Warglaives
2x same speed season 3 one handers Wicked Edge/Dragonstrike (MH) Season 2 2.60 one hander (MH) Blade of Infamy (OH) Season 2 2.60 one hander (OH) Talon of Azshara = Rising Tide (OH) Swiftsteel Bludgeon OH (this seems to have a better ranking at lower gear levels...) Suprised I didn't see Alar's MH and the Axe that he also drops on this list, both are compariable to Talon from what I can tell. |
I had never had any luck using the spreadsheet since I don't have excel at home and the site that links to it is blocked at my work. I use maxdps.com to help me make a lot of my gear decisions. I was wondering what a lot of people that look at the spreadsheet here and maxdps.com think of how they compare on accuracy in choosing gear. Also, is the Syphon not a good weapon in the eyes of most here?
|
Originally Posted by Kemeran
I had never had any luck using the spreadsheet since I don't have excel at home and the site that links to it is blocked at my work.
|
|
Originally Posted by Kemeran
Furthermore, I am suprised that I don't see the Syphon of the Nathrezim getting more respect as a DPS weapon in this thread. My guild started HS/BT recently and I was catching some grief last night for passing on the Rising Tide when it dropped. I feel that it is a pure sidegrade to the Talon of Azshara and Merciless Gladiator's Slicer that I have had for some time. I came here to the forums to see if many of the discussion touched on how the weapons rated against each other. My weapon wish list going into T6 (besides the warglaives) was a Blade of Infamy and a Syphon of the Nathrezim, especially since I could catch 10 expertise human racial bonus that way.
I had never had any luck using the spreadsheet since I don't have excel at home and the site that links to it is blocked at my work. I use maxdps.com to help me make a lot of my gear decisions. I was wondering what a lot of people that look at the spreadsheet here and maxdps.com think of how they compare on accuracy in choosing gear. Also, is the Syphon not a good weapon in the eyes of most here? |
You may want to read just a few pages back about maxdps.com. But I'll repeat it, since a lot of people seem to be using it. Maxdps.com does not include heroic strike damage and I suspect that it has no rage generation calculations. It will not be accurate and the gear evaluation will be less accurate than the one in the spreadsheet. I guess it's good as a first approximation, but in my opinion the spreadsheet beats it by miles (also, the spreadsheet is transparent, you can see how the calculations are made). E.g. as far as I can tell you cannot set your race in the page, thus racials aren't even modeled.
|
Originally Posted by Liar
Because you Devastate in the MT's place to have Sunder stack to 5. Like I said before, only the first 5 applications of Devastate do bonus threat since they apply Sunder. If you do it for your MT, he will miss out on that bonus which is pretty nice to have early on as a threat buffer.
Just to avoid more confusion, this is how much threat Devastate does: 1st: Damage + 120 +301 2nd: Damage + 135 +301 3rd: Damage + 150 +301 4th: Damage + 165 +301 5th: Damage + 180 +301 >5: Damage + 180 The 301 part is from Sunder Armor which it applies on the first 5 applications. |
On a side note, what is the bonus threat from shield slam and heroic strike?
Shield Slam 307
Revenge 200
Sunder Armor 301
Heroic Strike 196
Cleave 130 (Split)
Revenge 200
Sunder Armor 301
Heroic Strike 196
Cleave 130 (Split)
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
|
Originally Posted by keshian
Warglaives
2x same speed season 3 one handers Wicked Edge/Dragonstrike (MH) Season 2 2.60 one hander (MH) Blade of Infamy (OH) Season 2 2.60 one hander (OH) Talon of Azshara = Rising Tide (OH) Swiftsteel Bludgeon OH (this seems to have a better ranking at lower gear levels...) Suprised I didn't see Alar's MH and the Axe that he also drops on this list, both are compariable to Talon from what I can tell. |
| Furthermore, I am suprised that I don't see the Syphon of the Nathrezim getting more respect as a DPS weapon in this thread. My guild started HS/BT recently and I was catching some grief last night for passing on the Rising Tide when it dropped. I feel that it is a pure sidegrade to the Talon of Azshara and Merciless Gladiator's Slicer that I have had for some time. |
Last edited by Graul : 01/25/08 at 4:19 AM.
Sorry if this has already been covered, but tonight, while I was skilling 1H Maces on the Servant of Allistarj mobs in Blasted Lands, I noticed that if I crit when flurry has 1 charge left, it doesn't get refreshed, and the buff is removed. Is this known? It seems a little.. lame.
|
Originally Posted by Tscullor
Sorry if this has already been covered, but tonight, while I was skilling 1H Maces on the Servant of Allistarj mobs in Blasted Lands, I noticed that if I crit when flurry has 1 charge left, it doesn't get refreshed, and the buff is removed. Is this known? It seems a little.. lame.
|
Yeah it's been broken in that way since 2.3. Shamans have the same bug. There was a blue post saying that it would get fixed after 2.3.2, but that post seems to have vanished (i get an error when trying to open the link to it). It's not a game breaking bug but it does bring down flurry uptime for DW fury by 5% or so.
|
Originally Posted by Apate
You could e-mail it to yourself, or put it on a disk.
|
Thanks for the protip. I have no idea why I never thought of that before. Now here I am at work messing with the spreadsheet I e-mailed myself having a blast. Well, maybe not a blast, man the BT/HS weapons are underwhelming. I remember being so excited upon getting into SSC/TK with the weapons that were available in comparison to T4 content. Anything aside from the warglaives seems like a waste of gold for enchanting mats. After being able to put myself DW a Rising Tide/Merc Slicer into the spreadsheet I am glad I passed on the weapon for it to go to a resto shaman for fun. At least he will be appreciative of a cool off-spec toy. Blizzard was definitly asleep at the wheel itemizing the melee weapons in T6 it seems. I am still messing with a lot of configurations on the sheet, but what are most people favorite MH/OH combo besides the warglaives of course. I doubt if my guild will be farming Illidian to the point of spreading around a bunch of glaives, and there really wouldn't be a decision between warglaives and ???
[Deadly Cuffs] vs [Furious Shackles] discuss.
|
Originally Posted by seasonlight
[Deadly Cuffs] vs [Furious Shackles] discuss.
|
|
Originally Posted by seasonlight
[Deadly Cuffs] vs [Furious Shackles] discuss.
|
There you go, nothing more needs to be said.
Hi all! For of all, I apologize for the bad english I use; I'm french, and I don't speak english very well.
I have two question (I know they've allready been partly answered in the previous pages, but I didn't see anything very clear).
Here is the first one: In your opinion, what is the hit rating a 17/44 should aim? I always thought that, as you are getting t5/t6, you need far less hit, since the white hits are replaced by many HS. But I still see furies in BT with 220+ hit... So, what do you think?
The second question is about the enchant in OH: I thought that mongoose was far better than potency here, all the more so as I have a slow OH. But according to the spreadsheet, potency is better, and by far.... do you think the spreadsheet is right here?
I have two question (I know they've allready been partly answered in the previous pages, but I didn't see anything very clear).
Here is the first one: In your opinion, what is the hit rating a 17/44 should aim? I always thought that, as you are getting t5/t6, you need far less hit, since the white hits are replaced by many HS. But I still see furies in BT with 220+ hit... So, what do you think?
The second question is about the enchant in OH: I thought that mongoose was far better than potency here, all the more so as I have a slow OH. But according to the spreadsheet, potency is better, and by far.... do you think the spreadsheet is right here?
Does anyone has a good idea, where a fury warrior could test his dmg in a non-raid situation? I got some new items, which need some testing, but it seems it's hard to find something similiar as the outland mobs.
The spreadsheet might give a good overview but it's set to an optimal setting. A simulator might bring more interesting results, but this seems out of reach.
The spreadsheet might give a good overview but it's set to an optimal setting. A simulator might bring more interesting results, but this seems out of reach.
|
Originally Posted by Sharyl
Hi all! For of all, I apologize for the bad english I use; I'm french, and I don't speak english very well.
I have two question (I know they've allready been partly answered in the previous pages, but I didn't see anything very clear). Here is the first one: In your opinion, what is the hit rating a 17/44 should aim? I always thought that, as you are getting t5/t6, you need far less hit, since the white hits are replaced by many HS. But I still see furies in BT with 220+ hit... So, what do you think? The second question is about the enchant in OH: I thought that mongoose was far better than potency here, all the more so as I have a slow OH. But according to the spreadsheet, potency is better, and by far.... do you think the spreadsheet is right here? |
Other than that its just like any other stat in that it has a weight (fairly low one) compared to other stats.
Saying that one should aim for a particular number of a certain stat (be it hit, crit, ap or whatever) just shows that you dont understand the game mechanics.
When looking at an item you always need to take into consideration the total benefit of all stats on the item.
Now we say that hit rating is a bad stat and it is. But it is also present on several items who as a whole are very good and that is why you end up with many warriors having high hit ratings. Not because its a particulary good stat but because it happens to be on items that are good.
|
Originally Posted by Brissa
Other than that its just like any other stat in that it has a weight (fairly low one) compared to other stats.
Saying that one should aim for a particular number of a certain stat (be it hit, crit, ap or whatever) just shows that you dont understand the game mechanics. When looking at an item you always need to take into consideration the total benefit of all stats on the item. Now we say that hit rating is a bad stat and it is. But it is also present on several items who as a whole are very good and that is why you end up with many warriors having high hit ratings. Not because its a particulary good stat but because it happens to be on items that are good. |
And I know some people reach high hit ratings the way you describe it (because it is present in items which are good anyways, and also give hit rating); but this in not what I was refering to.
I thought about people who have already 240 hit, and still use +8 hit rat. gems and surefooted. What is your opinion about it?
Finally, I know what you mean " Saying that one should aim for a particular number of a certain stat (be it hit, crit, ap or whatever) just shows that you dont understand the game mechanics.", but you are warong in a way: one should aim a particular number of a certain stat regarding to the others stats he has. I mean, it semms kind of stupid to continue socketing with crit gems if you have 42% crit and 1000 AP, isn t it? That's exactly what I meant: being in t5 (more or less), which means having around 33% crit and 1800 AP, what should one aim for hit rating, so that his stats will be "well balanced"?
Once again, I apologize for the english mistakes ><
First aim: 9% so special attacks never miss.
Second aim: enough hit so BT & WW is always on cooldown and you can put some HS in the cycles.
the rest is anger management and i would say personal preference. I play with 180-220 hit rating, and I´m happy with it, but the rating comes from Items and not from Gems. never gem for hit after 9%.
As Brissa said, hit comes from items which are overall better then the item you used in the slot before.
You can´t give any numbers in rating which you should aim for. It is all personal preference.
But from my opinion: If you reach 170-200hit rating without gems you will do well.
Also i would not enchant surefooted; 12agi is the way to go in my opinion.
Second aim: enough hit so BT & WW is always on cooldown and you can put some HS in the cycles.
the rest is anger management and i would say personal preference. I play with 180-220 hit rating, and I´m happy with it, but the rating comes from Items and not from Gems. never gem for hit after 9%.
As Brissa said, hit comes from items which are overall better then the item you used in the slot before.
You can´t give any numbers in rating which you should aim for. It is all personal preference.
But from my opinion: If you reach 170-200hit rating without gems you will do well.
Also i would not enchant surefooted; 12agi is the way to go in my opinion.
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Originally Posted by Langie
Also i would not enchant surefooted; 12agi is the way to go in my opinion.
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Originally Posted by Sharyl
but you are warong in a way: one should aim a particular number of a certain stat regarding to the others stats he has. I mean, it semms kind of stupid to continue socketing with crit gems if you have 42% crit and 1000 AP, isn t it? That's exactly what I meant: being in t5 (more or less), which means having around 33% crit and 1800 AP, what should one aim for hit rating, so that his stats will be "well balanced"?
Once again, I apologize for the english mistakes >< |
Socketing hit gems is silly as a fury or ms warrior its something you should never do(when your over the 9% cap). Interestingly enough the spreadsheet tells a very different tale for prot where hit seems to be one of the better stats.
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Originally Posted by Brissa
Interestingly enough the spreadsheet tells a very different tale for prot where hit seems to be one of the better stats.
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Start at post 451 to see how to fix it.
Ah, good to know. It didnt seem to make sense at all.
So is the 4-swing flurry with same speed weapons still around? I've heard from some sources that the mechanic was removed some time ago, and from others that it still exists. Tried searching these forums but found no definite answer. Thanks.
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Originally Posted by Lapp
So is the 4-swing flurry with same speed weapons still around? I've heard from some sources that the mechanic was removed some time ago, and from others that it still exists. Tried searching these forums but found no definite answer. Thanks.
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Originally Posted by Lapp
So is the 4-swing flurry with same speed weapons still around? I've heard from some sources that the mechanic was removed some time ago, and from others that it still exists. Tried searching these forums but found no definite answer. Thanks.
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hitx2.........hitx2..........hitx2........hitx2
yellow doesnt consume charges, so how are you going to stop flurry at the 3rd swing without the 4th swing hitting also. i suppose you wouldent always get an extra flurry swing tho, only if your 2nd hit in each burst crits or a yellow attack, not the first white hit (i dont know how it figures out first when they both hit at once tho).
sorry if the flurry bug makes this incorrect, ive specced arms for raiding for a while and im not entirely farmilar with how the bug works.
hm, reading that other post now, didint see it before, my apologies if im wrong.
First time poster here. I had a question about stat balance which kind of goes along with the socketing question a guy posted a few posts back. I too just acquired the Greaves of the Bloodwarder and as I was about to socket them I questioned my judgement. I usually do 8 str all the way, and maybe a soverign or inscribed here and there if the bonus is decent + keeping the 2 blues I need for the meta. But after looking at my crit, which is about 27.86% currently (ap is 1901 unshouted) I thought it was alittle low. I'm wondering if it would be worth it to re-gem most of my gear going for 30% crit while trying to keep ap up as much as possible (using inscribeds when possible on the way to 30%).
I vaguely remember seeing an informative post, I think it was here somewhere, showing the benefit of crit % and flurry at 15%, 20%, 25%, 30%, 40% chance to crit. Raid buffed I sit around 34% but I think from what I remember if I can hit 40% raid buff crit then that can take my dps to the next step. True or false?
Me and a fellow rogue in the guild use to be neck and neck in dps till he got a few socketable items that allowed him to hit the hit cap, and after that happened he leaped ahead of me in dps by a very large amount. So i began to question my gemming methods first.
Like I said i just acquired those pants as well as a Red belt of battle so I have 5 open sockets not yet gemmed, dont worry I havent raided like this yet, i used the badge legs/belt before, and currently with these unsocketed items i'm at 2321 ap with shout, 27.86% crit, 157 to hit, and 5 exper from being human.
So what I'm really wondering now is if I should gem up crit to get 30% or just keep stacking strength with an inscribed here or there, would my dps hit another level with about 2% more crit or no?
I've tryed using the spreadsheets here but they dont let me plug in my items exactly how I have mine: vindicators neck with 8 str gem, my offhand with executioner (soon to be mongoose), and on one of them it shows me 2 pages basically asking the same thing, then after plugging in as much as I can it still just looks off and doesnt feel right, couple in the fact I suck at things like spreadsheets and technical/mathy stuff in general, I dont trust it enough, so I though I would just ask here.
My gut tells me to go for 30% crit and keep AP up, but maybe its wrong.
I vaguely remember seeing an informative post, I think it was here somewhere, showing the benefit of crit % and flurry at 15%, 20%, 25%, 30%, 40% chance to crit. Raid buffed I sit around 34% but I think from what I remember if I can hit 40% raid buff crit then that can take my dps to the next step. True or false?
Me and a fellow rogue in the guild use to be neck and neck in dps till he got a few socketable items that allowed him to hit the hit cap, and after that happened he leaped ahead of me in dps by a very large amount. So i began to question my gemming methods first.
Like I said i just acquired those pants as well as a Red belt of battle so I have 5 open sockets not yet gemmed, dont worry I havent raided like this yet, i used the badge legs/belt before, and currently with these unsocketed items i'm at 2321 ap with shout, 27.86% crit, 157 to hit, and 5 exper from being human.
So what I'm really wondering now is if I should gem up crit to get 30% or just keep stacking strength with an inscribed here or there, would my dps hit another level with about 2% more crit or no?
I've tryed using the spreadsheets here but they dont let me plug in my items exactly how I have mine: vindicators neck with 8 str gem, my offhand with executioner (soon to be mongoose), and on one of them it shows me 2 pages basically asking the same thing, then after plugging in as much as I can it still just looks off and doesnt feel right, couple in the fact I suck at things like spreadsheets and technical/mathy stuff in general, I dont trust it enough, so I though I would just ask here.
My gut tells me to go for 30% crit and keep AP up, but maybe its wrong.
Hey , im newcomer here at Ej forums , and i'm learning dps warrior thesedays.
I have a question for you more experienced warriors: I'm interested to find right cyckle to
do some bloodthirst , whirlwinds and heroic strikes ?
My gears you can check from Here.
I have a question for you more experienced warriors: I'm interested to find right cyckle to
do some bloodthirst , whirlwinds and heroic strikes ?
My gears you can check from Here.
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
Infiniteone:
I personally trust the spreadsheet, but as you ask for opinions, here we go (my guild just started into T6-content - just to let you know what level this advice comes from).
First, there is no magic line where your dps suddenly increases and reaches that "next level". Yet, in my experience flurry-uptime "feels" too low at your crit-rate. I am at ~31% in Berserker Stance and I would rate my crit-rate (and flurry-uptime) acceptable, but with room for impovements. While strength has the greatest relative impact on dps for you, stacking it is not optimal in my opinion.
The Badge-rewards do lack crit-rating, so Greaves of the Bloodwarder and Red Belt of Battle should improve the situation for you. You might replace some of your str-gems with crit-gems, but I would not advise to do a complete re-gem. I would gem the Greaves of the Bloodwarder with 8 str, 8 crit-rating, 4 str/6 stam (enabling the bonus of 4 str). Alternatively you could put a [Shifting Tanzanite] into the blue socket.
Concerning the rogue, who leaped ahead of you: Do you always get the same group buffs? And which do you get? That might be an important factor.
I personally trust the spreadsheet, but as you ask for opinions, here we go (my guild just started into T6-content - just to let you know what level this advice comes from).
First, there is no magic line where your dps suddenly increases and reaches that "next level". Yet, in my experience flurry-uptime "feels" too low at your crit-rate. I am at ~31% in Berserker Stance and I would rate my crit-rate (and flurry-uptime) acceptable, but with room for impovements. While strength has the greatest relative impact on dps for you, stacking it is not optimal in my opinion.
The Badge-rewards do lack crit-rating, so Greaves of the Bloodwarder and Red Belt of Battle should improve the situation for you. You might replace some of your str-gems with crit-gems, but I would not advise to do a complete re-gem. I would gem the Greaves of the Bloodwarder with 8 str, 8 crit-rating, 4 str/6 stam (enabling the bonus of 4 str). Alternatively you could put a [Shifting Tanzanite] into the blue socket.
Concerning the rogue, who leaped ahead of you: Do you always get the same group buffs? And which do you get? That might be an important factor.
Last edited by Brady : 01/28/08 at 5:04 AM. Reason: Making clear whom I'm telling this and adding another idea
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
My warrior is at battlestance at the moment
, i have 1989 attack power unbuffed in battlestance and 29.95 crit at the moment.
i do have the band of eternity , but i rather not use it cause im low on hitrating at the moment
, i have 1989 attack power unbuffed in battlestance and 29.95 crit at the moment.
i do have the band of eternity , but i rather not use it cause im low on hitrating at the moment
Last edited by mikrokuitu : 01/28/08 at 5:10 AM. Reason: forgot to write these down on to my previous post
mikrokuitu, these boards are quite heavily moderated, I would edit the first post and add the info there instead of making a second post.
For DW fury information check this site.
For DW fury information check this site.
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Originally Posted by Brady
Concerning the rogue, who leaped ahead of you: Do you always get the same group buffs? And which do you get? That might be an important factor.
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Heres the rogue: The World of Warcraft Armory
We have very few melee, me and him are usually always the top dps with sometimes one of the two lawlshadow bolt spamming warlocks getting ahead sometimes, so we always got dibs on the "melee group" which usually consists of me, the rogue, another rogue or MS warrior, a feral druid, and an enhancement shaman. We both run flask of relentless assault + imp might + kings + salv + 5/5 battleshout + all the other stuff. So we get all the same buffs. With a higher base line dps, shorter gcd, talents like combat potency, and the frontloadyness in the way energy is I dont really expect to ever go above him in dps unless he's slacking off but I was alittle surprised to be on par with him one day, then after he got a few more hit to reach cap....about 200, sometimes 250 dps below him the following days :P
Other then the rings I feel the gear is about equal, standard 17/44 spec, bt first, ww next, shout/rampage while their cooling down, never miss one when the cd is up, heroic strike before rage ever hits 100 with enough leftover always to bt/ww when their up again. Only fights I worry about aggro might be voidwalker, Gruul.
Hello, guys!
I have a question about best fury warrior weapons.
What is the best MH, OH end game weapon combination for human fury? (excluding A3 weapons, blacksmith weapons and legendary Illidan weapons)
For now I have Talon if Azshara in MH and Swiftsteel Bludgeon (quick mace from BT trash) in OH.
Now I wonder can weapons listed below increase my damage?
1) Syphon of Nahrezim (2.8 speed mace from Supremus)
2) Boundless Agony (dagger from Azgalor with huge reduce armor amount)
3) Blade of Savagery (quick sword from Shahrazz)
As I now daggers are nor so good for warriors. Also a mace/sword combination is slightly better than mace/mace or sword/sword combination.
So should I change my current weapons for something else?
My armory profile is :
The World of Warcraft Armory
I have a question about best fury warrior weapons.
What is the best MH, OH end game weapon combination for human fury? (excluding A3 weapons, blacksmith weapons and legendary Illidan weapons)
For now I have Talon if Azshara in MH and Swiftsteel Bludgeon (quick mace from BT trash) in OH.
Now I wonder can weapons listed below increase my damage?
1) Syphon of Nahrezim (2.8 speed mace from Supremus)
2) Boundless Agony (dagger from Azgalor with huge reduce armor amount)
3) Blade of Savagery (quick sword from Shahrazz)
As I now daggers are nor so good for warriors. Also a mace/sword combination is slightly better than mace/mace or sword/sword combination.
So should I change my current weapons for something else?
My armory profile is :
The World of Warcraft Armory
Just wondering, i'm currently raiding as an Arms/Fury warrior, and i'm currently specced into Unbridled Wrath. I was wondering, since I have a gap in my rotation, and none of our tanks have it, is it worth speccing imp Demo Shout to apply in the rotation gap while MS and WW are both on cooldown?
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Originally Posted by Tscullor
Just wondering, i'm currently raiding as an Arms/Fury warrior, and i'm currently specced into Unbridled Wrath. I was wondering, since I have a gap in my rotation, and none of our tanks have it, is it worth speccing imp Demo Shout to apply in the rotation gap while MS and WW are both on cooldown?
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Originally Posted by Tscullor
Just wondering, i'm currently raiding as an Arms/Fury warrior, and i'm currently specced into Unbridled Wrath. I was wondering, since I have a gap in my rotation, and none of our tanks have it, is it worth speccing imp Demo Shout to apply in the rotation gap while MS and WW are both on cooldown?
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Edit: Also, I don't know your situation on tanks, but many won't always have a warrior MTing.. it's beneficial to pick it up even if there are threat specced warriors in-house who already do.
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
Hi everyone, I have a couple of questions, but first a bit of background. Recently, the guild I was in broke up and I was given the opportunity to try out as a dps warrior in a full-BC-clearing guild. I had not played fury spec since level 60, so immediately came here to learn what I can about itemization, "cycles", etc. I played around a little bit with the DPS spreadsheet, and grinded on some mobs, did a pug gruul's, and was thrown into the fray basically immediately.
Last night we cleared all of Hyjal and up to Teron in BT. I was present for all of hyjal except the kill pass on archi, when I was switched out with a decurser. I was only switched in for Teron in BT. Without further ado here are some WWS's (I'm only going to link a few that I'll explain later):
Rage Winterchill: Wow Web Stats
Azgalor: Wow Web Stats
3rd try (wipe) Archimonde: WWS Loading...
Teron: Wow Web Stats
Again, let me restate that before last night, I had set foot in hyjal once (for rage, as a tank), and never been inside BT before.
My armory is: The World of Warcraft Armory (its showing I have dual mongoose I think; I have 20str on my offhand atm)
Here are my questions/comments:
- Before you start laughing at my sad dps, please understand that my first priority on these was to not get killed and look like a noob!
DPS was a distant second in my mind.
- My spreadsheet (from the warrior DPS spreadsheet thread) says that with the group I was in, my DPS should be on the order of 1050dps. I'm not really sure how it handles heroism/haste pots, but if I check those it goes up to around 1150dps. I assume that second DPS number is the DPS while those are active. However, on 2 fights I had over 1200dps. Are other people seeing discrepancies like this, or am I perhaps not inputing my numbers correctly?
- There has been talk about my current guild's raid-wide dps as being sub-par, so if the total dps on fights is low, its an overall raid thing.
- As far as I know curse of recklessness is not used. I have that it helps a lot, however I don't really want to bring this up as I'm just an app. Is there perhaps a particular post/thread that explains the benefits of CoR?
- Most of my fury gear was attained through kara, ZA random rolls, and what we used to call "offspec rolls", where tanks would just free roll plate dps pieces if our fury warrior wasn't around. My main concern at the moment are my boots and my romulo's poison vial. Would it be a good idea to perhaps take the season 3 pvp reward boots? or just wait for a drop? Re: my trinket, would it be worth farming BM for hourglass, or should I try to get in on more ZA clears for beserker's?
- One of the druids was specced balance, and has imp.FF, but when I look at debuffs on the bosses, I don't see that debuff listed. Perhaps I'm not looking in the right location? I can't believe he wouldn't do that, I know him from my previous guild and he's a good player. But is it possible he wasn't applying FF? Obviously 3% additional hit is very important.
- My last question is regarding my "recklessness". On trash pulls, after the 2nd boss or so, I started to get more comfortable with AoEing more, so I started switching cleave in for HS, and using sweeping strikes as much as possible. As a fury warrior, what kind of emphasis should I put on staying alive versus doing as much damage as possible? Obviously, on bosses, I don't want to die to stupid things (like sitting in a fire on archimonde), but should I really go balls-out for almost everything else and trust my healers?
- Forgot to add this, so editing: Right now I have 2 slow swords. I'm at work now so I can't check what the spreadsheet would say, but would it be worth checking out grabbing sword spec? (and obviously for 1 more point, deathwish). 5% extra attack with 2 weapons, although the offhand takes the damage penalty. I would have to drop rampage, imp. zerker stance, and some points in imp. DW that I currently have. Would the loss of these outweigh the gains from deathwish and sword spec?
Thanks for any replies/criticisms/suggestions, this is a great warrior resource and I have already been spreading the word!
-Jdangle
Last night we cleared all of Hyjal and up to Teron in BT. I was present for all of hyjal except the kill pass on archi, when I was switched out with a decurser. I was only switched in for Teron in BT. Without further ado here are some WWS's (I'm only going to link a few that I'll explain later):
Rage Winterchill: Wow Web Stats
Azgalor: Wow Web Stats
3rd try (wipe) Archimonde: WWS Loading...
Teron: Wow Web Stats
Again, let me restate that before last night, I had set foot in hyjal once (for rage, as a tank), and never been inside BT before.
My armory is: The World of Warcraft Armory (its showing I have dual mongoose I think; I have 20str on my offhand atm)
Here are my questions/comments:
- Before you start laughing at my sad dps, please understand that my first priority on these was to not get killed and look like a noob!
DPS was a distant second in my mind. - My spreadsheet (from the warrior DPS spreadsheet thread) says that with the group I was in, my DPS should be on the order of 1050dps. I'm not really sure how it handles heroism/haste pots, but if I check those it goes up to around 1150dps. I assume that second DPS number is the DPS while those are active. However, on 2 fights I had over 1200dps. Are other people seeing discrepancies like this, or am I perhaps not inputing my numbers correctly?
- There has been talk about my current guild's raid-wide dps as being sub-par, so if the total dps on fights is low, its an overall raid thing.
- As far as I know curse of recklessness is not used. I have that it helps a lot, however I don't really want to bring this up as I'm just an app. Is there perhaps a particular post/thread that explains the benefits of CoR?
- Most of my fury gear was attained through kara, ZA random rolls, and what we used to call "offspec rolls", where tanks would just free roll plate dps pieces if our fury warrior wasn't around. My main concern at the moment are my boots and my romulo's poison vial. Would it be a good idea to perhaps take the season 3 pvp reward boots? or just wait for a drop? Re: my trinket, would it be worth farming BM for hourglass, or should I try to get in on more ZA clears for beserker's?
- One of the druids was specced balance, and has imp.FF, but when I look at debuffs on the bosses, I don't see that debuff listed. Perhaps I'm not looking in the right location? I can't believe he wouldn't do that, I know him from my previous guild and he's a good player. But is it possible he wasn't applying FF? Obviously 3% additional hit is very important.
- My last question is regarding my "recklessness". On trash pulls, after the 2nd boss or so, I started to get more comfortable with AoEing more, so I started switching cleave in for HS, and using sweeping strikes as much as possible. As a fury warrior, what kind of emphasis should I put on staying alive versus doing as much damage as possible? Obviously, on bosses, I don't want to die to stupid things (like sitting in a fire on archimonde), but should I really go balls-out for almost everything else and trust my healers?
- Forgot to add this, so editing: Right now I have 2 slow swords. I'm at work now so I can't check what the spreadsheet would say, but would it be worth checking out grabbing sword spec? (and obviously for 1 more point, deathwish). 5% extra attack with 2 weapons, although the offhand takes the damage penalty. I would have to drop rampage, imp. zerker stance, and some points in imp. DW that I currently have. Would the loss of these outweigh the gains from deathwish and sword spec?
Thanks for any replies/criticisms/suggestions, this is a great warrior resource and I have already been spreading the word!
-Jdangle
Last edited by jimdangle : 01/30/08 at 1:12 PM.
The first thought that comes to mind is bosses in hyjal as well as teron have lower armor (6200?) vs most other bosses. If you didn't change this on the spreadsheet, it easily accounts for the difference in "expected" and actual dps output.
The other factor is the periodic aoe damage taken on these fights, boosting your rage generation.
The other factor is the periodic aoe damage taken on these fights, boosting your rage generation.
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Originally Posted by jimdangle
Teron: Wow Web Stats
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Another thing. Part of this is just a gear discrepancy, but your Bloodthirsts are not hitting very hard at all. Average noncrit Bloodthirst damage 978? How are your groups set up? You had three paladins, but did you have Might/Salv/Kings? Flasked? Did you keep Battle Shout/Rampage up the whole time? Your max crit Bloodthirst was 2k, which is just a little above my average noncrit Bloodthirst for the fight.
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Originally Posted by jimdangle
- Most of my fury gear was attained through kara, ZA random rolls, and what we used to call "offspec rolls", where tanks would just free roll plate dps pieces if our fury warrior wasn't around. My main concern at the moment are my boots and my romulo's poison vial. Would it be a good idea to perhaps take the season 3 pvp reward boots? or just wait for a drop? Re: my trinket, would it be worth farming BM for hourglass, or should I try to get in on more ZA clears for beserker's?
- Forgot to add this, so editing: Right now I have 2 slow swords. I'm at work now so I can't check what the spreadsheet would say, but would it be worth checking out grabbing sword spec? (and obviously for 1 more point, deathwish). 5% extra attack with 2 weapons, although the offhand takes the damage penalty. I would have to drop rampage, imp. zerker stance, and some points in imp. DW that I currently have. Would the loss of these outweigh the gains from deathwish and sword spec? -Jdangle |
There are also a few very small gem changes that I would make with your gear set. I don't think I would use a green gem in your warbringer helm (You have enough blue gems in other slots for your meta). yellow or orange there. I'd also put a red or orange gem into the shoulders instead of the 8 hit. Str/Crit is better at your gear level *AND* you get the socket bonus. (if you wanted to keep that green from your helm for some reason, you'd be better served putting it into the bracers and getting the socket bonus)
No, you probably shouldn't go sword spec. The loss does, in fact, outweigh the gain. (I think the spreadsheet you have lets you play with the talents and you can see for yourself the losses/gains).
Regarding only the Teron parse and Lode's comments, I'm fairly sure Battle shout dropped during the fight and didn't get refreshed. Early in the fight the log shows 1100-1150 point bloodthirst hits, and late in the fight it's down to 900-950 pointers, which matches up to loss of battle shout. (Your two rogues, who I assume were in your group, show the same reduction in hit damage later in the fight. I was checking around the 3 minute mark compared to the first 20 or so seconds)
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Originally Posted by LodeRunner
The thing that strikes me right away about your Teron parse is that you missed a lot of Bloodthirst/Whirlwind opportunities or cooldowns. At a glance I looked at my own parse from last night's Teron. You and I both had the same amount of Bloodthirsts and Whirlwinds hit. The difference is ours took what appears to be a full minute less than yours. This, to me, says you were not using BT/WW at every opportunity. Heroic Strike is to be used as a rage dump, not a set in stone rotation. Never prioritize it over BT or WW.
Another thing. Part of this is just a gear discrepancy, but your Bloodthirsts are not hitting very hard at all. Average noncrit Bloodthirst damage 978? How are your groups set up? You had three paladins, but did you have Might/Salv/Kings? Flasked? Did you keep Battle Shout/Rampage up the whole time? Your max crit Bloodthirst was 2k, which is just a little above my average noncrit Bloodthirst for the fight. |
Thanks for the replies, I'll do my best addressing them. I try to BT/WW whenever they are off cooldown, but you're right, I tend to HS more often than I think I need to. I'm pretty sure this relates to my tanking days (which were many) when I'd be getting so much rage I'd be using it basically continuously. Do you HS only when you're rage capped? I try to start including HS in when I'm over 50 rage, but sometimes I can lose all my rage and miss a cooldown, and thats a bad thing. Always learned that "your rage bar should be kept low, as incomming damage can be soaked into your rage bar" as tanking, but I guess with what I'm wearing/doing I shouldn't HS as much to dump rage.
The group we had a resto shaman for WF, 2 rogues, and a hunter for TSA iirc. I'm pretty sure I had might and kings (close to 100%), but I do remember that we pulled him before finishing buffs. Wasn't flasked, had str food and a major agi elixer. (for the hyjal parses I was flasked). You're right, I definitely remembered BS not being up. This stupid mod I have to tell me when BS/rampage are up is not really that great, it needs to flash bigger or something, I get tunnel vision too much I guess. I try to make sure rampage is up, but I find myself like, glancing at it and its at 1 or 0 seconds. I suppose that since BT/WW have stretches where you aren't using your GCD, I should be refreshing rampage, even if its only been 10-15 seconds? Is that what you guys do?
| Regarding only the Teron parse and Lode's comments, I'm fairly sure Battle shout dropped during the fight and didn't get refreshed. Early in the fight the log shows 1100-1150 point bloodthirst hits, and late in the fight it's down to 900-950 pointers, which matches up to loss of battle shout. (Your two rogues, who I assume were in your group, show the same reduction in hit damage later in the fight. I was checking around the 3 minute mark compared to the first 20 or so seconds) |
Regarding enchanting my boots: For a while, I had been reading the enhancement theorycrafting thread, as I was in a position to possibly raid on that character in my old guild. On that thread there is a comparison in DPS between 12agi and boars/cats boot encahnts, on the first page: "So for a 5 minute fight if you spend roughly 4 seconds moving between adds, running to the boss, etc, Run Speed provides a superior DPS benefit." In both Hyjal and BT I found myself moving often, mainly on trash, but also on bosses (like in/out of death and decay, dodging fires on archimonde). I would assume then that the same holds for warriors?
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Originally Posted by jimdangle
How do you see this graph (I assume you're looking at a graph)? I don't have a long time to look at this stuff, but I can't find anything like that. Can you tell me where to see this? Thanks for the comments. I think I'll follow your gem suggestions, I happen to have a bunch of gems lying around. I know socketing for hit isn't always the best thing to do, but when I did it my hit was definitely lower than what its at now.
Regarding enchanting my boots: For a while, I had been reading the enhancement theorycrafting thread, as I was in a position to possibly raid on that character in my old guild. On that thread there is a comparison in DPS between 12agi and boars/cats boot encahnts, on the first page: "So for a 5 minute fight if you spend roughly 4 seconds moving between adds, running to the boss, etc, Run Speed provides a superior DPS benefit." In both Hyjal and BT I found myself moving often, mainly on trash, but also on bosses (like in/out of death and decay, dodging fires on archimonde). I would assume then that the same holds for warriors? |
As far as the WWS stuff. Bring up WWS. Under the "browse" area you'll see several options. Choose "browse log file" (last option). That's basically the combatlog. Use the filter for yourself (I chose your name and "involved") and then just start browsing for interesting information. (Or use the filter for more specific browsing, like hit, etc.). This part of digging in WWS can get rather messy depending on how much you look for, but if you know you are looking for specific things, it isn't too difficult/time consuming. If you want, you can dig page by page and look for buff gains/losses, see if there are specific places where you clearly refreshed rampage early, and the like, but that's VERY time consuming and probably beyond what you really are needing to worry about with your current self-improvement goals.
Run speed is definitely my preferred enchant, but I'll farm mats for Cat's instead of Boar's because I need to squeeze in the DPS stats. I have terrible luck with boot drops, so it's not even close to wasteful.
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Originally Posted by Perinon
I couldn't possibly comment on how much movement value there is in BT/MH fights. My guild blew up when we started working on SSC/TK and I've seen nothing beyond the first couple bosses in each. Maybe a more experienced warrior can comment on how useful the movement bonus is.
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Rage: Only move if there's a Death&Decay. Run speed = ok
Anetheron: Only move if you're targetted by infernal.
Kaz'rogal: You don't move.
Azgalor: You move if you're doomed or if your run around out of Rain of Fire instead of just eating it with FR on. Run speed = ok.
Archimonde: Run for your life.
I'm only halfway through BT, but there's lots of movement on Supremus and Bloodboil, at the very least--and remember that just one or two additional hits via movement speed is all it takes (per fight) to make up for a few agi.
How much crit
I am curious how much crit everyone is aiming for before you decide to stop caring about it much at all and going all out AP?
Up to date: Noob Fury Warrior
I'm a noob fury warrior (respec from prot, too many tanks in my guild:P) .....what stat am I focusing on now since the patch? what gear am I after, season 1 arena set? I'v tanked Kara, but now can I be effective DpS-ing it?
> My spec seems decent, WorldofWarcraft.com -> Info -> Classes -> Warrior -> Talent Calculator I generate rage quite fast...but cant catch up to the rogues...
Can i get a little help please
-70 Human Warrior
> My spec seems decent, WorldofWarcraft.com -> Info -> Classes -> Warrior -> Talent Calculator I generate rage quite fast...but cant catch up to the rogues...
Can i get a little help please
-70 Human Warrior
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
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Originally Posted by Elogios
I'm a noob fury warrior (respec from prot, too many tanks in my guild:P) .....what stat am I focusing on now since the patch? what gear am I after, season 1 arena set? I'v tanked Kara, but now can I be effective DpS-ing it?
> My spec seems decent, WorldofWarcraft.com -> Info -> Classes -> Warrior -> Talent Calculator I generate rage quite fast...but cant catch up to the rogues... Can i get a little help please -70 Human Warrior |
Also, if you're "fury", why do you have Mortal Strike instead of Bloodthrist?
Last edited by Clay : 01/31/08 at 10:03 AM.
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Originally Posted by jimdangle
Thanks for the replies, I'll do my best addressing them. I try to BT/WW whenever they are off cooldown, but you're right, I tend to HS more often than I think I need to. I'm pretty sure this relates to my tanking days (which were many) when I'd be getting so much rage I'd be using it basically continuously. Do you HS only when you're rage capped? I try to start including HS in when I'm over 50 rage, but sometimes I can lose all my rage and miss a cooldown, and thats a bad thing. Always learned that "your rage bar should be kept low, as incomming damage can be soaked into your rage bar" as tanking, but I guess with what I'm wearing/doing I shouldn't HS as much to dump rage.
The group we had a resto shaman for WF, 2 rogues, and a hunter for TSA iirc. I'm pretty sure I had might and kings (close to 100%), but I do remember that we pulled him before finishing buffs. Wasn't flasked, had str food and a major agi elixer. (for the hyjal parses I was flasked). You're right, I definitely remembered BS not being up. This stupid mod I have to tell me when BS/rampage are up is not really that great, it needs to flash bigger or something, I get tunnel vision too much I guess. I try to make sure rampage is up, but I find myself like, glancing at it and its at 1 or 0 seconds. I suppose that since BT/WW have stretches where you aren't using your GCD, I should be refreshing rampage, even if its only been 10-15 seconds? Is that what you guys do? How do you see this graph (I assume you're looking at a graph)? I don't have a long time to look at this stuff, but I can't find anything like that. Can you tell me where to see this? Thanks for the comments. I think I'll follow your gem suggestions, I happen to have a bunch of gems lying around. I know socketing for hit isn't always the best thing to do, but when I did it my hit was definitely lower than what its at now. Regarding enchanting my boots: For a while, I had been reading the enhancement theorycrafting thread, as I was in a position to possibly raid on that character in my old guild. On that thread there is a comparison in DPS between 12agi and boars/cats boot encahnts, on the first page: "So for a 5 minute fight if you spend roughly 4 seconds moving between adds, running to the boss, etc, Run Speed provides a superior DPS benefit." In both Hyjal and BT I found myself moving often, mainly on trash, but also on bosses (like in/out of death and decay, dodging fires on archimonde). I would assume then that the same holds for warriors? |
EDIT: Oh yeah, anyone have the math on trinkets? IE MotB, Berserker's Call, Tsunami Talisman, Dragonspine Trophy, etc.
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
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Originally Posted by Chirality
Lots of movement. Especially the trash--and trash in Hyjal is more interesting and difficult than the boss so this matters--in which chasing around necromancers is quite important.
Rage: Only move if there's a Death&Decay. Run speed = ok Anetheron: Only move if you're targetted by infernal. Kaz'rogal: You don't move. Azgalor: You move if you're doomed or if your run around out of Rain of Fire instead of just eating it with FR on. Run speed = ok. Archimonde: Run for your life. I'm only halfway through BT, but there's lots of movement on Supremus and Bloodboil, at the very least--and remember that just one or two additional hits via movement speed is all it takes (per fight) to make up for a few agi. |
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Originally Posted by Murr0w
EDIT: Oh yeah, anyone have the math on trinkets? IE MotB, Berserker's Call, Tsunami Talisman, Dragonspine Trophy, etc.
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Last edited by Quixotic : 01/31/08 at 7:51 AM.
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Originally Posted by Chirality
Archimonde: Run for your life.
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You can intercept out of the airburst. And the only time you really have to move is when a Doomfire doubles back towards melee.
Supremus isn't really a nice melee fight to begin with, and Gurtogg fight takes place is such a confined space that it wouldn't be all that beneficial.
The only fight where you really are constantly on the move is akama and council.
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Originally Posted by Lapp
So is the 4-swing flurry with same speed weapons still around? I've heard from some sources that the mechanic was removed some time ago, and from others that it still exists. Tried searching these forums but found no definite answer. Thanks.
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hitx2.........hitx2..........hitx2........hitx2
yellow doesnt consume charges, so how are you going to stop flurry at the 3rd swing without the 4th swing hitting also. i suppose you wouldent always get an extra flurry swing tho, only if your 2nd hit in each burst crits or a yellow attack, not the first white hit (i dont know how it figures out first when they both hit at once tho).
sorry if the flurry bug makes this incorrect, ive specced arms for raiding for a while and im not entirely farmilar with how the bug works.
hm, reading that other post now, didint see it before, my apologies if im wrong.
First time poster here. I had a question about stat balance which kind of goes along with the socketing question a guy posted a few posts back. I too just acquired the Greaves of the Bloodwarder and as I was about to socket them I questioned my judgement. I usually do 8 str all the way, and maybe a soverign or inscribed here and there if the bonus is decent + keeping the 2 blues I need for the meta. But after looking at my crit, which is about 27.86% currently (ap is 1901 unshouted) I thought it was alittle low. I'm wondering if it would be worth it to re-gem most of my gear going for 30% crit while trying to keep ap up as much as possible (using inscribeds when possible on the way to 30%).
I vaguely remember seeing an informative post, I think it was here somewhere, showing the benefit of crit % and flurry at 15%, 20%, 25%, 30%, 40% chance to crit. Raid buffed I sit around 34% but I think from what I remember if I can hit 40% raid buff crit then that can take my dps to the next step. True or false?
Me and a fellow rogue in the guild use to be neck and neck in dps till he got a few socketable items that allowed him to hit the hit cap, and after that happened he leaped ahead of me in dps by a very large amount. So i began to question my gemming methods first.
Like I said i just acquired those pants as well as a Red belt of battle so I have 5 open sockets not yet gemmed, dont worry I havent raided like this yet, i used the badge legs/belt before, and currently with these unsocketed items i'm at 2321 ap with shout, 27.86% crit, 157 to hit, and 5 exper from being human.
So what I'm really wondering now is if I should gem up crit to get 30% or just keep stacking strength with an inscribed here or there, would my dps hit another level with about 2% more crit or no?
I've tryed using the spreadsheets here but they dont let me plug in my items exactly how I have mine: vindicators neck with 8 str gem, my offhand with executioner (soon to be mongoose), and on one of them it shows me 2 pages basically asking the same thing, then after plugging in as much as I can it still just looks off and doesnt feel right, couple in the fact I suck at things like spreadsheets and technical/mathy stuff in general, I dont trust it enough, so I though I would just ask here.
My gut tells me to go for 30% crit and keep AP up, but maybe its wrong.
I vaguely remember seeing an informative post, I think it was here somewhere, showing the benefit of crit % and flurry at 15%, 20%, 25%, 30%, 40% chance to crit. Raid buffed I sit around 34% but I think from what I remember if I can hit 40% raid buff crit then that can take my dps to the next step. True or false?
Me and a fellow rogue in the guild use to be neck and neck in dps till he got a few socketable items that allowed him to hit the hit cap, and after that happened he leaped ahead of me in dps by a very large amount. So i began to question my gemming methods first.
Like I said i just acquired those pants as well as a Red belt of battle so I have 5 open sockets not yet gemmed, dont worry I havent raided like this yet, i used the badge legs/belt before, and currently with these unsocketed items i'm at 2321 ap with shout, 27.86% crit, 157 to hit, and 5 exper from being human.
So what I'm really wondering now is if I should gem up crit to get 30% or just keep stacking strength with an inscribed here or there, would my dps hit another level with about 2% more crit or no?
I've tryed using the spreadsheets here but they dont let me plug in my items exactly how I have mine: vindicators neck with 8 str gem, my offhand with executioner (soon to be mongoose), and on one of them it shows me 2 pages basically asking the same thing, then after plugging in as much as I can it still just looks off and doesnt feel right, couple in the fact I suck at things like spreadsheets and technical/mathy stuff in general, I dont trust it enough, so I though I would just ask here.
My gut tells me to go for 30% crit and keep AP up, but maybe its wrong.
Hey , im newcomer here at Ej forums , and i'm learning dps warrior thesedays.
I have a question for you more experienced warriors: I'm interested to find right cyckle to
do some bloodthirst , whirlwinds and heroic strikes ?
My gears you can check from Here.
I have a question for you more experienced warriors: I'm interested to find right cyckle to
do some bloodthirst , whirlwinds and heroic strikes ?
My gears you can check from Here.
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
Infiniteone:
I personally trust the spreadsheet, but as you ask for opinions, here we go (my guild just started into T6-content - just to let you know what level this advice comes from).
First, there is no magic line where your dps suddenly increases and reaches that "next level". Yet, in my experience flurry-uptime "feels" too low at your crit-rate. I am at ~31% in Berserker Stance and I would rate my crit-rate (and flurry-uptime) acceptable, but with room for impovements. While strength has the greatest relative impact on dps for you, stacking it is not optimal in my opinion.
The Badge-rewards do lack crit-rating, so Greaves of the Bloodwarder and Red Belt of Battle should improve the situation for you. You might replace some of your str-gems with crit-gems, but I would not advise to do a complete re-gem. I would gem the Greaves of the Bloodwarder with 8 str, 8 crit-rating, 4 str/6 stam (enabling the bonus of 4 str). Alternatively you could put a [Shifting Tanzanite] into the blue socket.
Concerning the rogue, who leaped ahead of you: Do you always get the same group buffs? And which do you get? That might be an important factor.
I personally trust the spreadsheet, but as you ask for opinions, here we go (my guild just started into T6-content - just to let you know what level this advice comes from).
First, there is no magic line where your dps suddenly increases and reaches that "next level". Yet, in my experience flurry-uptime "feels" too low at your crit-rate. I am at ~31% in Berserker Stance and I would rate my crit-rate (and flurry-uptime) acceptable, but with room for impovements. While strength has the greatest relative impact on dps for you, stacking it is not optimal in my opinion.
The Badge-rewards do lack crit-rating, so Greaves of the Bloodwarder and Red Belt of Battle should improve the situation for you. You might replace some of your str-gems with crit-gems, but I would not advise to do a complete re-gem. I would gem the Greaves of the Bloodwarder with 8 str, 8 crit-rating, 4 str/6 stam (enabling the bonus of 4 str). Alternatively you could put a [Shifting Tanzanite] into the blue socket.
Concerning the rogue, who leaped ahead of you: Do you always get the same group buffs? And which do you get? That might be an important factor.
Last edited by Brady : 01/28/08 at 5:04 AM. Reason: Making clear whom I'm telling this and adding another idea
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
My warrior is at battlestance at the moment
, i have 1989 attack power unbuffed in battlestance and 29.95 crit at the moment.
i do have the band of eternity , but i rather not use it cause im low on hitrating at the moment
, i have 1989 attack power unbuffed in battlestance and 29.95 crit at the moment.
i do have the band of eternity , but i rather not use it cause im low on hitrating at the moment
Last edited by mikrokuitu : 01/28/08 at 5:10 AM. Reason: forgot to write these down on to my previous post
mikrokuitu, these boards are quite heavily moderated, I would edit the first post and add the info there instead of making a second post.
For DW fury information check this site.
For DW fury information check this site.
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Originally Posted by Brady
Concerning the rogue, who leaped ahead of you: Do you always get the same group buffs? And which do you get? That might be an important factor.
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Heres the rogue: The World of Warcraft Armory
We have very few melee, me and him are usually always the top dps with sometimes one of the two lawlshadow bolt spamming warlocks getting ahead sometimes, so we always got dibs on the "melee group" which usually consists of me, the rogue, another rogue or MS warrior, a feral druid, and an enhancement shaman. We both run flask of relentless assault + imp might + kings + salv + 5/5 battleshout + all the other stuff. So we get all the same buffs. With a higher base line dps, shorter gcd, talents like combat potency, and the frontloadyness in the way energy is I dont really expect to ever go above him in dps unless he's slacking off but I was alittle surprised to be on par with him one day, then after he got a few more hit to reach cap....about 200, sometimes 250 dps below him the following days :P
Other then the rings I feel the gear is about equal, standard 17/44 spec, bt first, ww next, shout/rampage while their cooling down, never miss one when the cd is up, heroic strike before rage ever hits 100 with enough leftover always to bt/ww when their up again. Only fights I worry about aggro might be voidwalker, Gruul.
Hello, guys!
I have a question about best fury warrior weapons.
What is the best MH, OH end game weapon combination for human fury? (excluding A3 weapons, blacksmith weapons and legendary Illidan weapons)
For now I have Talon if Azshara in MH and Swiftsteel Bludgeon (quick mace from BT trash) in OH.
Now I wonder can weapons listed below increase my damage?
1) Syphon of Nahrezim (2.8 speed mace from Supremus)
2) Boundless Agony (dagger from Azgalor with huge reduce armor amount)
3) Blade of Savagery (quick sword from Shahrazz)
As I now daggers are nor so good for warriors. Also a mace/sword combination is slightly better than mace/mace or sword/sword combination.
So should I change my current weapons for something else?
My armory profile is :
The World of Warcraft Armory
I have a question about best fury warrior weapons.
What is the best MH, OH end game weapon combination for human fury? (excluding A3 weapons, blacksmith weapons and legendary Illidan weapons)
For now I have Talon if Azshara in MH and Swiftsteel Bludgeon (quick mace from BT trash) in OH.
Now I wonder can weapons listed below increase my damage?
1) Syphon of Nahrezim (2.8 speed mace from Supremus)
2) Boundless Agony (dagger from Azgalor with huge reduce armor amount)
3) Blade of Savagery (quick sword from Shahrazz)
As I now daggers are nor so good for warriors. Also a mace/sword combination is slightly better than mace/mace or sword/sword combination.
So should I change my current weapons for something else?
My armory profile is :
The World of Warcraft Armory
Just wondering, i'm currently raiding as an Arms/Fury warrior, and i'm currently specced into Unbridled Wrath. I was wondering, since I have a gap in my rotation, and none of our tanks have it, is it worth speccing imp Demo Shout to apply in the rotation gap while MS and WW are both on cooldown?
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Originally Posted by Tscullor
Just wondering, i'm currently raiding as an Arms/Fury warrior, and i'm currently specced into Unbridled Wrath. I was wondering, since I have a gap in my rotation, and none of our tanks have it, is it worth speccing imp Demo Shout to apply in the rotation gap while MS and WW are both on cooldown?
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Originally Posted by Tscullor
Just wondering, i'm currently raiding as an Arms/Fury warrior, and i'm currently specced into Unbridled Wrath. I was wondering, since I have a gap in my rotation, and none of our tanks have it, is it worth speccing imp Demo Shout to apply in the rotation gap while MS and WW are both on cooldown?
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Edit: Also, I don't know your situation on tanks, but many won't always have a warrior MTing.. it's beneficial to pick it up even if there are threat specced warriors in-house who already do.
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
Hi everyone, I have a couple of questions, but first a bit of background. Recently, the guild I was in broke up and I was given the opportunity to try out as a dps warrior in a full-BC-clearing guild. I had not played fury spec since level 60, so immediately came here to learn what I can about itemization, "cycles", etc. I played around a little bit with the DPS spreadsheet, and grinded on some mobs, did a pug gruul's, and was thrown into the fray basically immediately.
Last night we cleared all of Hyjal and up to Teron in BT. I was present for all of hyjal except the kill pass on archi, when I was switched out with a decurser. I was only switched in for Teron in BT. Without further ado here are some WWS's (I'm only going to link a few that I'll explain later):
Rage Winterchill: Wow Web Stats
Azgalor: Wow Web Stats
3rd try (wipe) Archimonde: WWS Loading...
Teron: Wow Web Stats
Again, let me restate that before last night, I had set foot in hyjal once (for rage, as a tank), and never been inside BT before.
My armory is: The World of Warcraft Armory (its showing I have dual mongoose I think; I have 20str on my offhand atm)
Here are my questions/comments:
- Before you start laughing at my sad dps, please understand that my first priority on these was to not get killed and look like a noob! DPS was a distant second in my mind.
- My spreadsheet (from the warrior DPS spreadsheet thread) says that with the group I was in, my DPS should be on the order of 1050dps. I'm not really sure how it handles heroism/haste pots, but if I check those it goes up to around 1150dps. I assume that second DPS number is the DPS while those are active. However, on 2 fights I had over 1200dps. Are other people seeing discrepancies like this, or am I perhaps not inputing my numbers correctly?
- There has been talk about my current guild's raid-wide dps as being sub-par, so if the total dps on fights is low, its an overall raid thing.
- As far as I know curse of recklessness is not used. I have that it helps a lot, however I don't really want to bring this up as I'm just an app. Is there perhaps a particular post/thread that explains the benefits of CoR?
- Most of my fury gear was attained through kara, ZA random rolls, and what we used to call "offspec rolls", where tanks would just free roll plate dps pieces if our fury warrior wasn't around. My main concern at the moment are my boots and my romulo's poison vial. Would it be a good idea to perhaps take the season 3 pvp reward boots? or just wait for a drop? Re: my trinket, would it be worth farming BM for hourglass, or should I try to get in on more ZA clears for beserker's?
- One of the druids was specced balance, and has imp.FF, but when I look at debuffs on the bosses, I don't see that debuff listed. Perhaps I'm not looking in the right location? I can't believe he wouldn't do that, I know him from my previous guild and he's a good player. But is it possible he wasn't applying FF? Obviously 3% additional hit is very important.
- My last question is regarding my "recklessness". On trash pulls, after the 2nd boss or so, I started to get more comfortable with AoEing more, so I started switching cleave in for HS, and using sweeping strikes as much as possible. As a fury warrior, what kind of emphasis should I put on staying alive versus doing as much damage as possible? Obviously, on bosses, I don't want to die to stupid things (like sitting in a fire on archimonde), but should I really go balls-out for almost everything else and trust my healers?
- Forgot to add this, so editing: Right now I have 2 slow swords. I'm at work now so I can't check what the spreadsheet would say, but would it be worth checking out grabbing sword spec? (and obviously for 1 more point, deathwish). 5% extra attack with 2 weapons, although the offhand takes the damage penalty. I would have to drop rampage, imp. zerker stance, and some points in imp. DW that I currently have. Would the loss of these outweigh the gains from deathwish and sword spec?
Thanks for any replies/criticisms/suggestions, this is a great warrior resource and I have already been spreading the word!
-Jdangle
Last night we cleared all of Hyjal and up to Teron in BT. I was present for all of hyjal except the kill pass on archi, when I was switched out with a decurser. I was only switched in for Teron in BT. Without further ado here are some WWS's (I'm only going to link a few that I'll explain later):
Rage Winterchill: Wow Web Stats
Azgalor: Wow Web Stats
3rd try (wipe) Archimonde: WWS Loading...
Teron: Wow Web Stats
Again, let me restate that before last night, I had set foot in hyjal once (for rage, as a tank), and never been inside BT before.
My armory is: The World of Warcraft Armory (its showing I have dual mongoose I think; I have 20str on my offhand atm)
Here are my questions/comments:
- Before you start laughing at my sad dps, please understand that my first priority on these was to not get killed and look like a noob!
DPS was a distant second in my mind. - My spreadsheet (from the warrior DPS spreadsheet thread) says that with the group I was in, my DPS should be on the order of 1050dps. I'm not really sure how it handles heroism/haste pots, but if I check those it goes up to around 1150dps. I assume that second DPS number is the DPS while those are active. However, on 2 fights I had over 1200dps. Are other people seeing discrepancies like this, or am I perhaps not inputing my numbers correctly?
- There has been talk about my current guild's raid-wide dps as being sub-par, so if the total dps on fights is low, its an overall raid thing.
- As far as I know curse of recklessness is not used. I have that it helps a lot, however I don't really want to bring this up as I'm just an app. Is there perhaps a particular post/thread that explains the benefits of CoR?
- Most of my fury gear was attained through kara, ZA random rolls, and what we used to call "offspec rolls", where tanks would just free roll plate dps pieces if our fury warrior wasn't around. My main concern at the moment are my boots and my romulo's poison vial. Would it be a good idea to perhaps take the season 3 pvp reward boots? or just wait for a drop? Re: my trinket, would it be worth farming BM for hourglass, or should I try to get in on more ZA clears for beserker's?
- One of the druids was specced balance, and has imp.FF, but when I look at debuffs on the bosses, I don't see that debuff listed. Perhaps I'm not looking in the right location? I can't believe he wouldn't do that, I know him from my previous guild and he's a good player. But is it possible he wasn't applying FF? Obviously 3% additional hit is very important.
- My last question is regarding my "recklessness". On trash pulls, after the 2nd boss or so, I started to get more comfortable with AoEing more, so I started switching cleave in for HS, and using sweeping strikes as much as possible. As a fury warrior, what kind of emphasis should I put on staying alive versus doing as much damage as possible? Obviously, on bosses, I don't want to die to stupid things (like sitting in a fire on archimonde), but should I really go balls-out for almost everything else and trust my healers?
- Forgot to add this, so editing: Right now I have 2 slow swords. I'm at work now so I can't check what the spreadsheet would say, but would it be worth checking out grabbing sword spec? (and obviously for 1 more point, deathwish). 5% extra attack with 2 weapons, although the offhand takes the damage penalty. I would have to drop rampage, imp. zerker stance, and some points in imp. DW that I currently have. Would the loss of these outweigh the gains from deathwish and sword spec?
Thanks for any replies/criticisms/suggestions, this is a great warrior resource and I have already been spreading the word!
-Jdangle
Last edited by jimdangle : 01/30/08 at 1:12 PM.
The first thought that comes to mind is bosses in hyjal as well as teron have lower armor (6200?) vs most other bosses. If you didn't change this on the spreadsheet, it easily accounts for the difference in "expected" and actual dps output.
The other factor is the periodic aoe damage taken on these fights, boosting your rage generation.
The other factor is the periodic aoe damage taken on these fights, boosting your rage generation.
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Originally Posted by jimdangle
Teron: Wow Web Stats
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Another thing. Part of this is just a gear discrepancy, but your Bloodthirsts are not hitting very hard at all. Average noncrit Bloodthirst damage 978? How are your groups set up? You had three paladins, but did you have Might/Salv/Kings? Flasked? Did you keep Battle Shout/Rampage up the whole time? Your max crit Bloodthirst was 2k, which is just a little above my average noncrit Bloodthirst for the fight.
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Originally Posted by jimdangle
- Most of my fury gear was attained through kara, ZA random rolls, and what we used to call "offspec rolls", where tanks would just free roll plate dps pieces if our fury warrior wasn't around. My main concern at the moment are my boots and my romulo's poison vial. Would it be a good idea to perhaps take the season 3 pvp reward boots? or just wait for a drop? Re: my trinket, would it be worth farming BM for hourglass, or should I try to get in on more ZA clears for beserker's?
- Forgot to add this, so editing: Right now I have 2 slow swords. I'm at work now so I can't check what the spreadsheet would say, but would it be worth checking out grabbing sword spec? (and obviously for 1 more point, deathwish). 5% extra attack with 2 weapons, although the offhand takes the damage penalty. I would have to drop rampage, imp. zerker stance, and some points in imp. DW that I currently have. Would the loss of these outweigh the gains from deathwish and sword spec? -Jdangle |
There are also a few very small gem changes that I would make with your gear set. I don't think I would use a green gem in your warbringer helm (You have enough blue gems in other slots for your meta). yellow or orange there. I'd also put a red or orange gem into the shoulders instead of the 8 hit. Str/Crit is better at your gear level *AND* you get the socket bonus. (if you wanted to keep that green from your helm for some reason, you'd be better served putting it into the bracers and getting the socket bonus)
No, you probably shouldn't go sword spec. The loss does, in fact, outweigh the gain. (I think the spreadsheet you have lets you play with the talents and you can see for yourself the losses/gains).
Regarding only the Teron parse and Lode's comments, I'm fairly sure Battle shout dropped during the fight and didn't get refreshed. Early in the fight the log shows 1100-1150 point bloodthirst hits, and late in the fight it's down to 900-950 pointers, which matches up to loss of battle shout. (Your two rogues, who I assume were in your group, show the same reduction in hit damage later in the fight. I was checking around the 3 minute mark compared to the first 20 or so seconds)
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Originally Posted by LodeRunner
The thing that strikes me right away about your Teron parse is that you missed a lot of Bloodthirst/Whirlwind opportunities or cooldowns. At a glance I looked at my own parse from last night's Teron. You and I both had the same amount of Bloodthirsts and Whirlwinds hit. The difference is ours took what appears to be a full minute less than yours. This, to me, says you were not using BT/WW at every opportunity. Heroic Strike is to be used as a rage dump, not a set in stone rotation. Never prioritize it over BT or WW.
Another thing. Part of this is just a gear discrepancy, but your Bloodthirsts are not hitting very hard at all. Average noncrit Bloodthirst damage 978? How are your groups set up? You had three paladins, but did you have Might/Salv/Kings? Flasked? Did you keep Battle Shout/Rampage up the whole time? Your max crit Bloodthirst was 2k, which is just a little above my average noncrit Bloodthirst for the fight. |
Thanks for the replies, I'll do my best addressing them. I try to BT/WW whenever they are off cooldown, but you're right, I tend to HS more often than I think I need to. I'm pretty sure this relates to my tanking days (which were many) when I'd be getting so much rage I'd be using it basically continuously. Do you HS only when you're rage capped? I try to start including HS in when I'm over 50 rage, but sometimes I can lose all my rage and miss a cooldown, and thats a bad thing. Always learned that "your rage bar should be kept low, as incomming damage can be soaked into your rage bar" as tanking, but I guess with what I'm wearing/doing I shouldn't HS as much to dump rage.
The group we had a resto shaman for WF, 2 rogues, and a hunter for TSA iirc. I'm pretty sure I had might and kings (close to 100%), but I do remember that we pulled him before finishing buffs. Wasn't flasked, had str food and a major agi elixer. (for the hyjal parses I was flasked). You're right, I definitely remembered BS not being up. This stupid mod I have to tell me when BS/rampage are up is not really that great, it needs to flash bigger or something, I get tunnel vision too much I guess. I try to make sure rampage is up, but I find myself like, glancing at it and its at 1 or 0 seconds. I suppose that since BT/WW have stretches where you aren't using your GCD, I should be refreshing rampage, even if its only been 10-15 seconds? Is that what you guys do?
| Regarding only the Teron parse and Lode's comments, I'm fairly sure Battle shout dropped during the fight and didn't get refreshed. Early in the fight the log shows 1100-1150 point bloodthirst hits, and late in the fight it's down to 900-950 pointers, which matches up to loss of battle shout. (Your two rogues, who I assume were in your group, show the same reduction in hit damage later in the fight. I was checking around the 3 minute mark compared to the first 20 or so seconds) |
Regarding enchanting my boots: For a while, I had been reading the enhancement theorycrafting thread, as I was in a position to possibly raid on that character in my old guild. On that thread there is a comparison in DPS between 12agi and boars/cats boot encahnts, on the first page: "So for a 5 minute fight if you spend roughly 4 seconds moving between adds, running to the boss, etc, Run Speed provides a superior DPS benefit." In both Hyjal and BT I found myself moving often, mainly on trash, but also on bosses (like in/out of death and decay, dodging fires on archimonde). I would assume then that the same holds for warriors?
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Originally Posted by jimdangle
How do you see this graph (I assume you're looking at a graph)? I don't have a long time to look at this stuff, but I can't find anything like that. Can you tell me where to see this? Thanks for the comments. I think I'll follow your gem suggestions, I happen to have a bunch of gems lying around. I know socketing for hit isn't always the best thing to do, but when I did it my hit was definitely lower than what its at now.
Regarding enchanting my boots: For a while, I had been reading the enhancement theorycrafting thread, as I was in a position to possibly raid on that character in my old guild. On that thread there is a comparison in DPS between 12agi and boars/cats boot encahnts, on the first page: "So for a 5 minute fight if you spend roughly 4 seconds moving between adds, running to the boss, etc, Run Speed provides a superior DPS benefit." In both Hyjal and BT I found myself moving often, mainly on trash, but also on bosses (like in/out of death and decay, dodging fires on archimonde). I would assume then that the same holds for warriors? |
As far as the WWS stuff. Bring up WWS. Under the "browse" area you'll see several options. Choose "browse log file" (last option). That's basically the combatlog. Use the filter for yourself (I chose your name and "involved") and then just start browsing for interesting information. (Or use the filter for more specific browsing, like hit, etc.). This part of digging in WWS can get rather messy depending on how much you look for, but if you know you are looking for specific things, it isn't too difficult/time consuming. If you want, you can dig page by page and look for buff gains/losses, see if there are specific places where you clearly refreshed rampage early, and the like, but that's VERY time consuming and probably beyond what you really are needing to worry about with your current self-improvement goals.
Run speed is definitely my preferred enchant, but I'll farm mats for Cat's instead of Boar's because I need to squeeze in the DPS stats. I have terrible luck with boot drops, so it's not even close to wasteful.
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Originally Posted by Perinon
I couldn't possibly comment on how much movement value there is in BT/MH fights. My guild blew up when we started working on SSC/TK and I've seen nothing beyond the first couple bosses in each. Maybe a more experienced warrior can comment on how useful the movement bonus is.
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Rage: Only move if there's a Death&Decay. Run speed = ok
Anetheron: Only move if you're targetted by infernal.
Kaz'rogal: You don't move.
Azgalor: You move if you're doomed or if your run around out of Rain of Fire instead of just eating it with FR on. Run speed = ok.
Archimonde: Run for your life.
I'm only halfway through BT, but there's lots of movement on Supremus and Bloodboil, at the very least--and remember that just one or two additional hits via movement speed is all it takes (per fight) to make up for a few agi.
How much crit
I am curious how much crit everyone is aiming for before you decide to stop caring about it much at all and going all out AP?
Up to date: Noob Fury Warrior
I'm a noob fury warrior (respec from prot, too many tanks in my guild:P) .....what stat am I focusing on now since the patch? what gear am I after, season 1 arena set? I'v tanked Kara, but now can I be effective DpS-ing it?
> My spec seems decent, WorldofWarcraft.com -> Info -> Classes -> Warrior -> Talent Calculator I generate rage quite fast...but cant catch up to the rogues...
Can i get a little help please
-70 Human Warrior
> My spec seems decent, WorldofWarcraft.com -> Info -> Classes -> Warrior -> Talent Calculator I generate rage quite fast...but cant catch up to the rogues...
Can i get a little help please
-70 Human Warrior
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
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Originally Posted by Elogios
I'm a noob fury warrior (respec from prot, too many tanks in my guild:P) .....what stat am I focusing on now since the patch? what gear am I after, season 1 arena set? I'v tanked Kara, but now can I be effective DpS-ing it?
> My spec seems decent, WorldofWarcraft.com -> Info -> Classes -> Warrior -> Talent Calculator I generate rage quite fast...but cant catch up to the rogues... Can i get a little help please -70 Human Warrior |
Also, if you're "fury", why do you have Mortal Strike instead of Bloodthrist?
Last edited by Clay : 01/31/08 at 10:03 AM.
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Originally Posted by jimdangle
Thanks for the replies, I'll do my best addressing them. I try to BT/WW whenever they are off cooldown, but you're right, I tend to HS more often than I think I need to. I'm pretty sure this relates to my tanking days (which were many) when I'd be getting so much rage I'd be using it basically continuously. Do you HS only when you're rage capped? I try to start including HS in when I'm over 50 rage, but sometimes I can lose all my rage and miss a cooldown, and thats a bad thing. Always learned that "your rage bar should be kept low, as incomming damage can be soaked into your rage bar" as tanking, but I guess with what I'm wearing/doing I shouldn't HS as much to dump rage.
The group we had a resto shaman for WF, 2 rogues, and a hunter for TSA iirc. I'm pretty sure I had might and kings (close to 100%), but I do remember that we pulled him before finishing buffs. Wasn't flasked, had str food and a major agi elixer. (for the hyjal parses I was flasked). You're right, I definitely remembered BS not being up. This stupid mod I have to tell me when BS/rampage are up is not really that great, it needs to flash bigger or something, I get tunnel vision too much I guess. I try to make sure rampage is up, but I find myself like, glancing at it and its at 1 or 0 seconds. I suppose that since BT/WW have stretches where you aren't using your GCD, I should be refreshing rampage, even if its only been 10-15 seconds? Is that what you guys do? How do you see this graph (I assume you're looking at a graph)? I don't have a long time to look at this stuff, but I can't find anything like that. Can you tell me where to see this? Thanks for the comments. I think I'll follow your gem suggestions, I happen to have a bunch of gems lying around. I know socketing for hit isn't always the best thing to do, but when I did it my hit was definitely lower than what its at now. Regarding enchanting my boots: For a while, I had been reading the enhancement theorycrafting thread, as I was in a position to possibly raid on that character in my old guild. On that thread there is a comparison in DPS between 12agi and boars/cats boot encahnts, on the first page: "So for a 5 minute fight if you spend roughly 4 seconds moving between adds, running to the boss, etc, Run Speed provides a superior DPS benefit." In both Hyjal and BT I found myself moving often, mainly on trash, but also on bosses (like in/out of death and decay, dodging fires on archimonde). I would assume then that the same holds for warriors? |
EDIT: Oh yeah, anyone have the math on trinkets? IE MotB, Berserker's Call, Tsunami Talisman, Dragonspine Trophy, etc.
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
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Originally Posted by Chirality
Lots of movement. Especially the trash--and trash in Hyjal is more interesting and difficult than the boss so this matters--in which chasing around necromancers is quite important.
Rage: Only move if there's a Death&Decay. Run speed = ok Anetheron: Only move if you're targetted by infernal. Kaz'rogal: You don't move. Azgalor: You move if you're doomed or if your run around out of Rain of Fire instead of just eating it with FR on. Run speed = ok. Archimonde: Run for your life. I'm only halfway through BT, but there's lots of movement on Supremus and Bloodboil, at the very least--and remember that just one or two additional hits via movement speed is all it takes (per fight) to make up for a few agi. |
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Originally Posted by Murr0w
EDIT: Oh yeah, anyone have the math on trinkets? IE MotB, Berserker's Call, Tsunami Talisman, Dragonspine Trophy, etc.
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Last edited by Quixotic : 01/31/08 at 7:51 AM.
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Originally Posted by Chirality
Archimonde: Run for your life.
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You can intercept out of the airburst. And the only time you really have to move is when a Doomfire doubles back towards melee.
Supremus isn't really a nice melee fight to begin with, and Gurtogg fight takes place is such a confined space that it wouldn't be all that beneficial.
The only fight where you really are constantly on the move is akama and council.
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Originally Posted by Quixotic
For the level of gear that you could get MotB, it's Solarian's Sapphire > Berzerker's Call > Tsunami Talisman > MotB > DST.
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Originally Posted by Murr0w
DST is that bad, eh?
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Originally Posted by Emeraude
It's not that it's bad, it's just that the ones he mentioned are better(For a Warrior). DST is a great DPS trinket.
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Please forgive me if I have missed the answer earlier in this thread, but it is so huge....
As I am participating in the organization of our raids I would like to know if nowadays (i.e. after the recent changes) it is still preferable to have one DPS warrior specced into Blood Frenzy, or if the recent changes have boosted individual Fury DPS enough to make it the preferred spec for each DPS warrior in the raid.
As I am participating in the organization of our raids I would like to know if nowadays (i.e. after the recent changes) it is still preferable to have one DPS warrior specced into Blood Frenzy, or if the recent changes have boosted individual Fury DPS enough to make it the preferred spec for each DPS warrior in the raid.
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Originally Posted by Kobal
Please forgive me if I have missed the answer earlier in this thread, but it is so huge....
As I am participating in the organization of our raids I would like to know if nowadays (i.e. after the recent changes) it is still preferable to have one DPS warrior specced into Blood Frenzy, or if the recent changes have boosted individual Fury DPS enough to make it the preferred spec for each DPS warrior in the raid. |
Also, yes, 1 BF warrior is very good to have in the raid.
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Originally Posted by Apate
Could you be specific about the changes you are referring to?
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Originally Posted by Quixotic
For the level of gear that you could get MotB, it's Solarian's Sapphire > Berzerker's Call > Tsunami Talisman > MotB > DST.
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I napkin math'd out the stat budget in this thread dedicated to the DST:
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Originally Posted by rayijin
Napkin math on estimated item budgets (DST vs MOTB):
[Dragonspine Trophy] 40 ap passive 81 haste (325 * 25% appx uptime with 1.5ppm) [Madness of the Betrayer] 88 ap passive (+44 over dragonspine) 20 hit passive (+20 over dragonspine) 120 armor penetration (300 * 40% appx uptime) Now the extra hit, ap and armor penetration are nice, however, look at the total amount of "budget" on each item with these approximations: Assuming 1 stat budget point = 2 ap = 1 haste rating = 1 hit rating = 7 armor penetration Appx budget for DST: 20+81= 101 Appx budget for MOTB: 44+20+17= 81 Although hit is the best stat for rogues to stack up to cap, other stats are close to as good overall, and in terms of total stats MOTB is behind significantly (~20%) compared to DST. I think blizzard needs to make the 300 armor penetration passive rather than a proc, then MOTB would basically be tied with DST instead of inferior in terms of budget. Either that or nerf DST again. |
(90ap + 360ap * (20sec/120sec)) * (1 budget / 2 ap) = 75 (possibly less if you save it to be used with other cooldowns such as bloodlust)
My question is: How can you conclude that any trinket (besides solarian's) is better than DST? I'm going to have to see the math on this one.
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
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Originally Posted by Clay
First off, what gear do you have access to? Since as a furywarrior, you will notice that gear is everything. You scale better with items then most classes.
Also, if you're "fury", why do you have Mortal Strike instead of Bloodthrist? |
I'm still wearing alot of Tanking gear http://www.wowarmory.com/character-s...runner&n=Sesso
just changed gems so far....and I'v heard MS is better for PvP ( I pvp alot also)
would it be bad to opt for some leather gear?
Last edited by Elogios : 02/01/08 at 2:36 PM. Reason: adding armory info
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Originally Posted by rayijin
I've played with just about every possible gear combination I could find using various versions of the DPS warrior spreadsheet (including the most recent one), and I could not find a single setup that yielded higher dps without a DST than with.
I napkin math'd out the stat budget in this thread dedicated to the DST: To add [Berserker's Call]: (90ap + 360ap * (20sec/120sec)) * (1 budget / 2 ap) = 75 (possibly less if you save it to be used with other cooldowns such as bloodlust) My question is: How can you conclude that any trinket (besides solarian's) is better than DST? I'm going to have to see the math on this one. |
Then again, what would I know, my guild has only seen 2 DST, 2 Tsunami Talisman, 2 MotB, and I've been outrolled on every Berzerker's Call, so all I have are spreadsheets/personal stat preferences to back it up.
2.2k dps on Teron with a Bloodlust Brooch and an Hourglass of the Unraveler, yay for RNG.
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Originally Posted by Quixotic
2.2k dps on Teron with a Bloodlust Brooch and an Hourglass of the Unraveler, yay for RNG.
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I've been blessed with good trinkets, but I can never seem to break past 1700 DPS on any fight. 1400-1500 is my norm, 1800 is my high(Rage Winterchill kill).
Don't know what the deal is, normally my group make-up is Shaman/3xRogue/Warrior.
Do you have two drum users in that group?
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Originally Posted by Graul
Do you have two drum users in that group?
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Yeah depending on fight i average between 1100-2k+ dps. But we dont use CoR all the time. And we dont use a feral druid at all. Recently got a enh shaman though.
Quick question, i heard slow OH is better for WW. But i picked up the fury a while back and didnt like it so i went back to the mace from bt/ trash. But ill have enough pnts for s3 oh. I shuld most def get the 2.6 oh?? cause i noticed my rage wasnt as good witht he fury from ZA.
Quick question, i heard slow OH is better for WW. But i picked up the fury a while back and didnt like it so i went back to the mace from bt/ trash. But ill have enough pnts for s3 oh. I shuld most def get the 2.6 oh?? cause i noticed my rage wasnt as good witht he fury from ZA.
What is the best ring enchant for fury?
Ive heard its +2 weapon damage but, Sangrecap uses +4 stats.
Ive heard its +2 weapon damage but, Sangrecap uses +4 stats.
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Originally Posted by Emeraude
That's a crime against humanity. :<
I've been blessed with good trinkets, but I can never seem to break past 1700 DPS on any fight. 1400-1500 is my norm, 1800 is my high(Rage Winterchill kill). Don't know what the deal is, normally my group make-up is Shaman/3xRogue/Warrior. |
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Originally Posted by seasonlight
Yeah depending on fight i average between 1100-2k+ dps. But we dont use CoR all the time. And we dont use a feral druid at all. Recently got a enh shaman though.
Quick question, i heard slow OH is better for WW. But i picked up the fury a while back and didnt like it so i went back to the mace from bt/ trash. But ill have enough pnts for s3 oh. I shuld most def get the 2.6 oh?? cause i noticed my rage wasnt as good witht he fury from ZA. |
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Originally Posted by Quixotic
That seems really low for your gear, it's nearly perfect except helm/neck/cloak/bracers/warglaives, and of those it's only minor upgrades. My normal group setup is enhancement shaman/warrior/3x rogue or 2x rogue/feral druid. But alas, our normal tanks have RL issues (Quigon/Edgewalker those bastards) and I haven't been able to DPS in weeks
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I nabbed 1875 DPS on Teron the other day. Unfortunately I got ghosted at 27% and had to leave at ~12%. I'm guessing I would have broken 1900 or 1950 had I not been ghosted. The catch? I was protection.
WWS: http://wowwebstats.com/x1z2xrnyu6kcs?s=6098-6302&a=13
Spec: Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft
It almost seems broken to me.
hmm that seems very odd Emmy cause i know what your gear is like, because just last week our main Fury warrior got 2.1k DPS on Shade and Teron and he doesnt have as good gear as you buy any means, so idk maybe look at a WWS report and see what you can change or something casue im stunned that thats all you the DPS your doing.
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Originally Posted by Natural
Since you guys are talking DPS and mentioned two Drums in the DPS group, I thought I'd throw this recent fight into the picture.
I nabbed 1875 DPS on Teron the other day. Unfortunately I got ghosted at 27% and had to leave at ~12%. I'm guessing I would have broken 1900 or 1950 had I not been ghosted. The catch? I was protection. WWS: http://wowwebstats.com/x1z2xrnyu6kcs?s=6098-6302&a=13 Spec: Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft It almost seems broken to me. |
Also, WTB WWS that works properly before ~10 at night.
(Guess we're all trying to use it at the same time while we're at work...)I've never been able to pull off impressive DW DPS, too. I'm using Dragonstrike/Infamy in a Enhancer/3xRogue/me group with lots of drums. My DPS with a 2h sword is the same .
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Originally Posted by Elumako
I'm kind of curious what sort of gear you were wearing for that fight.
Also, WTB WWS that works properly before ~10 at night. (Guess we're all trying to use it at the same time while we're at work...) |
- Council Plate helm
- Choker of endless nightmares
- T6 shoulders
- Shadowmoon destroyer's cape
- Midnight BP
- Furious shackles
- Grips of silent justice
- Red belt of battle
- Archimonde plate pants
- RoS Boots
- Band of devastation
- Unstoppable aggressor's ring
- DST, Solarian's sapphire
- Zul'jin ranged bow with AP and armor reduction
- Siphon MH, Swiftsteel OH
While typing this I remembered that I forgot to put a weightstone on my offhand. I'll try to put together the same group and buffs next week and hope I don't get ghosted.
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Originally Posted by Quixotic
I personally wouldn't rate 1 haste rating close to 2 ap. Depending on your bloodlust usage, (we typically bloodlust at 98% or so) Berzerker's Call has near maximum cooldown usage, and you can stack it with recklessness/haste potion/drums/bloodlust, as well as stacking it with a haste potion every time you use it.
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Also I see you have [Furious Shackles], but I keep getting that [Bracers of Eradication] are more dps. Any particular reason you use them?
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
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Originally Posted by Natural
I don't have a link handy, so I'll go by memory. It's nearly ideal.
- Council Plate helm - Choker of endless nightmares - T6 shoulders - Shadowmoon destroyer's cape - Midnight BP - Furious shackles - Grips of silent justice - Red belt of battle - Archimonde plate pants - RoS Boots - Band of devastation - Unstoppable aggressor's ring - DST, Solarian's sapphire - Zul'jin ranged bow with AP and armor reduction - Siphon MH, Swiftsteel OH While typing this I remembered that I forgot to put a weightstone on my offhand. I'll try to put together the same group and buffs next week and hope I don't get ghosted. |
I'm surprised at the relatively low number of devastates you did...35 Heroic Strikes and only 37 Devastates and 15 Whirlwinds? Assuming with a 2.8 MH weapon, i would have assumed roughly twice as many instants as Heroic Strike (if you used every attack), and about 5 times as many devastates as whirlwinds...for something like 35 HS 60 Devastates 15 whirlwinds.
So you had 75 Melee attacks and 35 Heroic Strikes, with 16 "gained one attack through windfury"...So that's around 35+(75-16)*1.5/2.8 ~ 66 Main Hand attacks and only 52 instant attacks?
Like I said, i would have expected on the order of 75 or so instants (once you guess at haste effects like Heroism, drums, etc).
Edit: No improved Shield Block (I assume you're uncrushable?) or Shield Mastery? I find that curious.
Last edited by Chirality : 01/31/08 at 8:25 PM.
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Originally Posted by Machinator
Also I see you have [Furious Shackles], but I keep getting that [Bracers of Eradication] are more dps. Any particular reason you use them?
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Originally Posted by Chirality
I'm surprised at the relatively low number of devastates you did...35 Heroic Strikes and only 37 Devastates and 15 Whirlwinds? Assuming with a 2.8 MH weapon, i would have assumed roughly twice as many instants as Heroic Strike (if you used every attack), and about 5 times as many devastates as whirlwinds...for something like 35 HS 60 Devastates 15 whirlwinds.
So you had 75 Melee attacks and 35 Heroic Strikes, with 16 "gained one attack through windfury"...So that's around 35+(75-16)*1.5/2.8 ~ 66 Main Hand attacks and only 52 instant attacks? Like I said, i would have expected on the order of 75 or so instants (once you guess at haste effects like Heroism, drums, etc). Edit: No improved Shield Block (I assume you're uncrushable?) or Shield Mastery? I find that curious. |
Yeah, I am uncrushable in my tanking gear.
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Originally Posted by Quixotic
For the level of gear that you could get MotB, it's Solarian's Sapphire > Berzerker's Call > Tsunami Talisman > MotB > DST.
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Originally Posted by Murr0w
DST is that bad, eh?
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Originally Posted by Emeraude
It's not that it's bad, it's just that the ones he mentioned are better(For a Warrior). DST is a great DPS trinket.
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Please forgive me if I have missed the answer earlier in this thread, but it is so huge....
As I am participating in the organization of our raids I would like to know if nowadays (i.e. after the recent changes) it is still preferable to have one DPS warrior specced into Blood Frenzy, or if the recent changes have boosted individual Fury DPS enough to make it the preferred spec for each DPS warrior in the raid.
As I am participating in the organization of our raids I would like to know if nowadays (i.e. after the recent changes) it is still preferable to have one DPS warrior specced into Blood Frenzy, or if the recent changes have boosted individual Fury DPS enough to make it the preferred spec for each DPS warrior in the raid.
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Originally Posted by Kobal
Please forgive me if I have missed the answer earlier in this thread, but it is so huge....
As I am participating in the organization of our raids I would like to know if nowadays (i.e. after the recent changes) it is still preferable to have one DPS warrior specced into Blood Frenzy, or if the recent changes have boosted individual Fury DPS enough to make it the preferred spec for each DPS warrior in the raid. |
Also, yes, 1 BF warrior is very good to have in the raid.
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Originally Posted by Apate
Could you be specific about the changes you are referring to?
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Originally Posted by Quixotic
For the level of gear that you could get MotB, it's Solarian's Sapphire > Berzerker's Call > Tsunami Talisman > MotB > DST.
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I napkin math'd out the stat budget in this thread dedicated to the DST:
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Originally Posted by rayijin
Napkin math on estimated item budgets (DST vs MOTB):
[Dragonspine Trophy] 40 ap passive 81 haste (325 * 25% appx uptime with 1.5ppm) [Madness of the Betrayer] 88 ap passive (+44 over dragonspine) 20 hit passive (+20 over dragonspine) 120 armor penetration (300 * 40% appx uptime) Now the extra hit, ap and armor penetration are nice, however, look at the total amount of "budget" on each item with these approximations: Assuming 1 stat budget point = 2 ap = 1 haste rating = 1 hit rating = 7 armor penetration Appx budget for DST: 20+81= 101 Appx budget for MOTB: 44+20+17= 81 Although hit is the best stat for rogues to stack up to cap, other stats are close to as good overall, and in terms of total stats MOTB is behind significantly (~20%) compared to DST. I think blizzard needs to make the 300 armor penetration passive rather than a proc, then MOTB would basically be tied with DST instead of inferior in terms of budget. Either that or nerf DST again. |
(90ap + 360ap * (20sec/120sec)) * (1 budget / 2 ap) = 75 (possibly less if you save it to be used with other cooldowns such as bloodlust)
My question is: How can you conclude that any trinket (besides solarian's) is better than DST? I'm going to have to see the math on this one.
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
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Originally Posted by Clay
First off, what gear do you have access to? Since as a furywarrior, you will notice that gear is everything. You scale better with items then most classes.
Also, if you're "fury", why do you have Mortal Strike instead of Bloodthrist? |
I'm still wearing alot of Tanking gear http://www.wowarmory.com/character-s...runner&n=Sesso
just changed gems so far....and I'v heard MS is better for PvP ( I pvp alot also)
would it be bad to opt for some leather gear?
Last edited by Elogios : 02/01/08 at 2:36 PM. Reason: adding armory info
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Originally Posted by rayijin
I've played with just about every possible gear combination I could find using various versions of the DPS warrior spreadsheet (including the most recent one), and I could not find a single setup that yielded higher dps without a DST than with.
I napkin math'd out the stat budget in this thread dedicated to the DST: To add [Berserker's Call]: (90ap + 360ap * (20sec/120sec)) * (1 budget / 2 ap) = 75 (possibly less if you save it to be used with other cooldowns such as bloodlust) My question is: How can you conclude that any trinket (besides solarian's) is better than DST? I'm going to have to see the math on this one. |
Then again, what would I know, my guild has only seen 2 DST, 2 Tsunami Talisman, 2 MotB, and I've been outrolled on every Berzerker's Call, so all I have are spreadsheets/personal stat preferences to back it up.
2.2k dps on Teron with a Bloodlust Brooch and an Hourglass of the Unraveler, yay for RNG.
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Originally Posted by Quixotic
2.2k dps on Teron with a Bloodlust Brooch and an Hourglass of the Unraveler, yay for RNG.
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I've been blessed with good trinkets, but I can never seem to break past 1700 DPS on any fight. 1400-1500 is my norm, 1800 is my high(Rage Winterchill kill).
Don't know what the deal is, normally my group make-up is Shaman/3xRogue/Warrior.
Do you have two drum users in that group?
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Originally Posted by Graul
Do you have two drum users in that group?
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Yeah depending on fight i average between 1100-2k+ dps. But we dont use CoR all the time. And we dont use a feral druid at all. Recently got a enh shaman though.
Quick question, i heard slow OH is better for WW. But i picked up the fury a while back and didnt like it so i went back to the mace from bt/ trash. But ill have enough pnts for s3 oh. I shuld most def get the 2.6 oh?? cause i noticed my rage wasnt as good witht he fury from ZA.
Quick question, i heard slow OH is better for WW. But i picked up the fury a while back and didnt like it so i went back to the mace from bt/ trash. But ill have enough pnts for s3 oh. I shuld most def get the 2.6 oh?? cause i noticed my rage wasnt as good witht he fury from ZA.
What is the best ring enchant for fury?
Ive heard its +2 weapon damage but, Sangrecap uses +4 stats.
Ive heard its +2 weapon damage but, Sangrecap uses +4 stats.
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Originally Posted by Emeraude
That's a crime against humanity. :<
I've been blessed with good trinkets, but I can never seem to break past 1700 DPS on any fight. 1400-1500 is my norm, 1800 is my high(Rage Winterchill kill). Don't know what the deal is, normally my group make-up is Shaman/3xRogue/Warrior. |
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Originally Posted by seasonlight
Yeah depending on fight i average between 1100-2k+ dps. But we dont use CoR all the time. And we dont use a feral druid at all. Recently got a enh shaman though.
Quick question, i heard slow OH is better for WW. But i picked up the fury a while back and didnt like it so i went back to the mace from bt/ trash. But ill have enough pnts for s3 oh. I shuld most def get the 2.6 oh?? cause i noticed my rage wasnt as good witht he fury from ZA. |
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Originally Posted by Quixotic
That seems really low for your gear, it's nearly perfect except helm/neck/cloak/bracers/warglaives, and of those it's only minor upgrades. My normal group setup is enhancement shaman/warrior/3x rogue or 2x rogue/feral druid. But alas, our normal tanks have RL issues (Quigon/Edgewalker those bastards) and I haven't been able to DPS in weeks
. |
I nabbed 1875 DPS on Teron the other day. Unfortunately I got ghosted at 27% and had to leave at ~12%. I'm guessing I would have broken 1900 or 1950 had I not been ghosted. The catch? I was protection.
WWS: http://wowwebstats.com/x1z2xrnyu6kcs?s=6098-6302&a=13
Spec: Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft
It almost seems broken to me.
hmm that seems very odd Emmy cause i know what your gear is like, because just last week our main Fury warrior got 2.1k DPS on Shade and Teron and he doesnt have as good gear as you buy any means, so idk maybe look at a WWS report and see what you can change or something casue im stunned that thats all you the DPS your doing.
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Originally Posted by Natural
Since you guys are talking DPS and mentioned two Drums in the DPS group, I thought I'd throw this recent fight into the picture.
I nabbed 1875 DPS on Teron the other day. Unfortunately I got ghosted at 27% and had to leave at ~12%. I'm guessing I would have broken 1900 or 1950 had I not been ghosted. The catch? I was protection. WWS: http://wowwebstats.com/x1z2xrnyu6kcs?s=6098-6302&a=13 Spec: Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft It almost seems broken to me. |
Also, WTB WWS that works properly before ~10 at night.
(Guess we're all trying to use it at the same time while we're at work...)I've never been able to pull off impressive DW DPS, too. I'm using Dragonstrike/Infamy in a Enhancer/3xRogue/me group with lots of drums. My DPS with a 2h sword is the same .
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Originally Posted by Elumako
I'm kind of curious what sort of gear you were wearing for that fight.
Also, WTB WWS that works properly before ~10 at night. (Guess we're all trying to use it at the same time while we're at work...) |
- Council Plate helm
- Choker of endless nightmares
- T6 shoulders
- Shadowmoon destroyer's cape
- Midnight BP
- Furious shackles
- Grips of silent justice
- Red belt of battle
- Archimonde plate pants
- RoS Boots
- Band of devastation
- Unstoppable aggressor's ring
- DST, Solarian's sapphire
- Zul'jin ranged bow with AP and armor reduction
- Siphon MH, Swiftsteel OH
While typing this I remembered that I forgot to put a weightstone on my offhand. I'll try to put together the same group and buffs next week and hope I don't get ghosted.
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Originally Posted by Quixotic
I personally wouldn't rate 1 haste rating close to 2 ap. Depending on your bloodlust usage, (we typically bloodlust at 98% or so) Berzerker's Call has near maximum cooldown usage, and you can stack it with recklessness/haste potion/drums/bloodlust, as well as stacking it with a haste potion every time you use it.
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Also I see you have [Furious Shackles], but I keep getting that [Bracers of Eradication] are more dps. Any particular reason you use them?
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
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Originally Posted by Natural
I don't have a link handy, so I'll go by memory. It's nearly ideal.
- Council Plate helm - Choker of endless nightmares - T6 shoulders - Shadowmoon destroyer's cape - Midnight BP - Furious shackles - Grips of silent justice - Red belt of battle - Archimonde plate pants - RoS Boots - Band of devastation - Unstoppable aggressor's ring - DST, Solarian's sapphire - Zul'jin ranged bow with AP and armor reduction - Siphon MH, Swiftsteel OH While typing this I remembered that I forgot to put a weightstone on my offhand. I'll try to put together the same group and buffs next week and hope I don't get ghosted. |
I'm surprised at the relatively low number of devastates you did...35 Heroic Strikes and only 37 Devastates and 15 Whirlwinds? Assuming with a 2.8 MH weapon, i would have assumed roughly twice as many instants as Heroic Strike (if you used every attack), and about 5 times as many devastates as whirlwinds...for something like 35 HS 60 Devastates 15 whirlwinds.
So you had 75 Melee attacks and 35 Heroic Strikes, with 16 "gained one attack through windfury"...So that's around 35+(75-16)*1.5/2.8 ~ 66 Main Hand attacks and only 52 instant attacks?
Like I said, i would have expected on the order of 75 or so instants (once you guess at haste effects like Heroism, drums, etc).
Edit: No improved Shield Block (I assume you're uncrushable?) or Shield Mastery? I find that curious.
Last edited by Chirality : 01/31/08 at 8:25 PM.
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Originally Posted by Machinator
Also I see you have [Furious Shackles], but I keep getting that [Bracers of Eradication] are more dps. Any particular reason you use them?
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Originally Posted by Chirality
I'm surprised at the relatively low number of devastates you did...35 Heroic Strikes and only 37 Devastates and 15 Whirlwinds? Assuming with a 2.8 MH weapon, i would have assumed roughly twice as many instants as Heroic Strike (if you used every attack), and about 5 times as many devastates as whirlwinds...for something like 35 HS 60 Devastates 15 whirlwinds.
So you had 75 Melee attacks and 35 Heroic Strikes, with 16 "gained one attack through windfury"...So that's around 35+(75-16)*1.5/2.8 ~ 66 Main Hand attacks and only 52 instant attacks? Like I said, i would have expected on the order of 75 or so instants (once you guess at haste effects like Heroism, drums, etc). Edit: No improved Shield Block (I assume you're uncrushable?) or Shield Mastery? I find that curious. |
Yeah, I am uncrushable in my tanking gear.
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Originally Posted by Machinator
Out of curiosity then you don't use bloodlust for execute range? It depends on the fight, but most of the time I see it being more effective, and the timing really doesnt matter for anyone else but warriors. Even without that I am having a hard time seeing Berserker's, Tsunami, or (depending on gear) even MotB better than DST. With a 20 sec cooldown its somewhere around 20-25% uptime, though I want to double check my logs to verify that.
Also I see you have [Furious Shackles], but I keep getting that [Bracers of Eradication] are more dps. Any particular reason you use them? |
I use furious shackles purely because I was a warlock up until BT/Hyjal, then rerolled when a tank quit. We then proceeded to recruit an new excellent warrior, so I switched to DPS, and subsequently never got any of the SSC/TK loot. Will get the next [Deadly Cuffs] so it's not that big a deal.
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
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Originally Posted by LodeRunner
Your max crit Bloodthirst was 2k, which is just a little above my average noncrit Bloodthirst for the fight.
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hi there, one question regarding your gear since your are pvp specced atm.
i always thought the dmg compared to my equip is fairly ok. but when i read that your average bt noncrit are close to 2k i think my gear (or my skills) needs a review.
maybe (if you look at my armory link) you could give me a hint which items or socket to change. im switching gear a lot atm since i want to try out the benefits from maximum armor ignore. so generally i have like ~1900 ap unbuffed, 29% crit, 206 hit and around 350 armor ignore fix. (+ executioner mongoose on rod of the sun king + rising tide)
i nearly always have feral + melee shaman support and of course all paladinstuff.
most of the times (just bosses) i run around 1200-1600 dps (depending on situation and boss).
when saw your posting with the average noncrit bt i checked mine. its way lower, like 1100 - 1380 (max average).
how can this be? is it all about the ap? should i review my socket to 10str all over? should i enchant potency on my offhand? what values are u trying to reach in ap before you go crit? (around)
i am lowering my hit at the moment since it was way to high in the past, like 270 and i have noticed a very nice dps boost.
im trying to keep my bt and ww on cd all the time and just dumping with heroics but even with hastepotion and bloodlust and recklessness its not possible to raise more dps. 16xx on single bossmobs is my maximum atm.
which way should i go?
(the worst part of my gear are the rings. trying to upgrade them asap but since karazhan i was out of luck with ringdrops)
another question is, what do you guys do in execute range? do you execute? do you cycle? i have 2 swiftsteel maces potency enchanted where i try compare chainexecuting with the normal rotation and normal weapons. whats your experience here? i cant really make a difference.
thanks for your answers
:-)
Last edited by cainor : 02/01/08 at 6:23 AM.
Your armory link is wrong. The World of Warcraft Armory is the correct link (Using the US Azshara link and just adding "(EU)" behind the name doesn't magically turn the link into the EU version <_<).
That being said, your gear looks pretty good - apart from the weapons. Put the weapon with the Executioner enchant into your MH and the Mongoose one into your OH for better Exec uptime (guess you might have to swap the enchants to squeeze out some more DPS, too, so your slower wep is the MH with Exec). Then get a Hyjal gem for your gloves.
Apart from that use [Warrior] DPS Spreadsheet 2.3 and beyond to figure out all the small nuances of how to gear/gem (like trying S3 Chest plus epic gems vs your current one and checking which is better DPS). Also make sure you CoR bosses and keep in mind that the 2k BT figure was on a specific, low armor boss only (Teron) from what I understood.
That being said, your gear looks pretty good - apart from the weapons. Put the weapon with the Executioner enchant into your MH and the Mongoose one into your OH for better Exec uptime (guess you might have to swap the enchants to squeeze out some more DPS, too, so your slower wep is the MH with Exec). Then get a Hyjal gem for your gloves.
Apart from that use [Warrior] DPS Spreadsheet 2.3 and beyond to figure out all the small nuances of how to gear/gem (like trying S3 Chest plus epic gems vs your current one and checking which is better DPS). Also make sure you CoR bosses and keep in mind that the 2k BT figure was on a specific, low armor boss only (Teron) from what I understood.
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Originally Posted by Liar
Your armory link is wrong. The World of Warcraft Armory is the correct link (Using the US Azshara link and just adding "(EU)" behind the name doesn't magically turn the link into the EU version <_<).
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Edited onPatch 2.3.3
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Originally Posted by Liar
Your armory link is wrong. The World of Warcraft Armory is the correct link (Using the US Azshara link and just adding "(EU)" behind the name doesn't magically turn the link into the EU version <_<).
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it wants to send me to The World of Warcraft Armory
kk googles thank ya
@Liar, the reason why i have the executioner in my offhand was the row the items dropped. i had the rod way earlier and there was no executioner available. so i was a little close on money when i decided to do it this way, even though i knew it was wrong. may correct it in the future, hoping for a new mh.
i didnt want to change the hands since i thought 50 maxdmg more on the mh are a lot for my specials. would you switch the weapons just for executioner?
regarding the chest, im waiting for the midnight breastplate to drop from archimonde. or does the armor ignore on s3 makes it that much better? im always confused with armor ignore. its no compact value which you can see constant. or im just not sensitive enough :-)
Last edited by cainor : 02/01/08 at 7:05 AM.
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Originally Posted by Goggles
That link is auto generated by the forums now. I believe it's on Boethius list of things to fix.
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Originally Posted by cainor
i didnt want to change the hands since i thought 50 maxdmg more on the mh are a lot for my specials. would you switch the weapons just for executioner?
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Originally Posted by cainor
regarding the chest, im waiting for the midnight breastplate to drop from archimonde. or does the armor ignore on s3 makes it that much better? im always confused with armor ignore. its no compact value which you can see constant. or im just not sensitive enough :-)
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Solarian's Sapphire?
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Originally Posted by Murr0w
DST is that bad, eh?
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Originally Posted by Barmbul
Am i missing something DST at least per the dps sheet is better than all the trinkets and Solarian's only gives and additional 70 atk pwr to shout with no other stats..... are you figuring in the party buff?
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trinkets
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Originally Posted by Murr0w
Because it gives the equivalent of an additional unimproved battle shout to the rest of the group. Raid DPS > Personal DPS until you're farming everything in the game and you can afford to be a lazy asshole like me!
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.....
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I'm still wearing alot of Tanking gear http://www.wowarmory.com/character-s...runner&n=Sesso just changed gems so far....and I'v heard MS is better for PvP ( I pvp alot also) would it be bad to opt for some leather gear? |
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Originally Posted by Barmbul
Am i missing something DST at least per the dps sheet is better than all the trinkets and Solarian's only gives and additional 70 atk pwr to shout with no other stats..... are you figuring in the party buff?
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So, I've seen a load of arms PvE people around lately, and I was wondering if anyone had some arms PvE gear list or something with items you get from raids (or some PvP mix). I'm raiding T5 content and Kael'thas is the only one not killed. Also would generally prefer a sword since I feel that fits me better.
Thanks in advance.
//Mani
Thanks in advance.
//Mani
So it seems we are getting a small dps increase in 2.4.
"The fix in 2.4 should have Endless Rage provide significantly more rage."
"We plan to make the off-hand weapon critical hits from Whirlwind trigger Flurry and Rampage which should improve damage a bit."
"The fix in 2.4 should have Endless Rage provide significantly more rage."
"We plan to make the off-hand weapon critical hits from Whirlwind trigger Flurry and Rampage which should improve damage a bit."
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Originally Posted by Slicex
So, I've seen a load of arms PvE people around lately, and I was wondering if anyone had some arms PvE gear list or something with items you get from raids (or some PvP mix). I'm raiding T5 content and Kael'thas is the only one not killed. Also would generally prefer a sword since I feel that fits me better.
Thanks in advance. //Mani |
I've been perusing this thread hoping to find some discussion on two-hand fury viability, but to no avail. I haven't been able to find anything via the search function either. Does anyone know of a page number, thread or website which discusses this topic?
I don't play often and raiding is not a priority. However, I do have the opportunity to fill in a raid slot in non-progression content on occasion. I currently use a Deep Thunder and I'm curious how 20/41, or some variation, would compare to 33/28 considering Mace Spec's lack of appeal in PvE.
I'm particularly curious about talent distribution and attack rotations.
Sorry if these questions have already been addressed.
I don't play often and raiding is not a priority. However, I do have the opportunity to fill in a raid slot in non-progression content on occasion. I currently use a Deep Thunder and I'm curious how 20/41, or some variation, would compare to 33/28 considering Mace Spec's lack of appeal in PvE.
I'm particularly curious about talent distribution and attack rotations.
Sorry if these questions have already been addressed.
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Originally Posted by Kithelina
I've been perusing this thread hoping to find some discussion on two-hand fury viability, but to no avail. I haven't been able to find anything via the search function either. Does anyone know of a page number, thread or website which discusses this topic?
I don't play often and raiding is not a priority. However, I do have the opportunity to fill in a raid slot in non-progression content on occasion. I currently use a Deep Thunder and I'm curious how 20/41, or some variation, would compare to 33/28 considering Mace Spec's lack of appeal in PvE. I'm particularly curious about talent distribution and attack rotations. Sorry if these questions have already been addressed. |
"We plan to make the off-hand weapon critical hits from Whirlwind trigger Flurry and Rampage which should improve damage a bit."
This should be interesting keeping flurry up. I still hope they fix the offhand-last-charge-flurry-crit-no-new-flurry bug. With the offhand proccing flurry, it could be benefitial to flurry uptime and give a nice boost verses a 2-hand pve build.
This should be interesting keeping flurry up. I still hope they fix the offhand-last-charge-flurry-crit-no-new-flurry bug. With the offhand proccing flurry, it could be benefitial to flurry uptime and give a nice boost verses a 2-hand pve build.
Hello again, guys
I have written my question 1 page back but it seams not interesting or a little difficult.
Just want to repeat it: what is the best MH, OH combination for human fury (not including BS weapons and A3 weapons).
Now I have Talon in MH and Swiftsteel Bludgeon in OH.
Should I change it for sometnig else?
If anybody knows the answer or it was disscused earlier just give me a link.
Thanks for help!
I have written my question 1 page back but it seams not interesting or a little difficult.
Just want to repeat it: what is the best MH, OH combination for human fury (not including BS weapons and A3 weapons).
Now I have Talon in MH and Swiftsteel Bludgeon in OH.
Should I change it for sometnig else?
If anybody knows the answer or it was disscused earlier just give me a link.
Thanks for help!
I really wish people would not use maxdps.com. The dps and stat weights make no sense. Some of the item suggestions can get really off the wall.
I am wondering if that is where people are getting the DST being bad compared to trinkets other than Sapphire/MotB.
All calculators, spreadsheets included, must be interpreted properly. They are not always correct on what is best, right for the situation, or sometimes even accurate.
I am wondering if that is where people are getting the DST being bad compared to trinkets other than Sapphire/MotB.
All calculators, spreadsheets included, must be interpreted properly. They are not always correct on what is best, right for the situation, or sometimes even accurate.
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Originally Posted by Machinator
I really wish people would not use maxdps.com. The dps and stat weights make no sense. Some of the item suggestions can get really off the wall.
I am wondering if that is where people are getting the DST being bad compared to trinkets other than Sapphire/MotB. All calculators, spreadsheets included, must be interpreted properly. They are not always correct on what is best, right for the situation, or sometimes even accurate. |
I don't see how the 1.5-1.7 ppm I see on most logs of DST falls in comparison to the 1 ppm TT, even at a conservative 1.5 (from a few logs, on rogues though) ppm, it's ~5% haste 40 AP versus ~56 ap 38 crit 10 hit.
Compared to Berserkers call, 5% haste is a bigger increase than 110 ap. DST is still the best trinket in the game currently.
"We plan to make the off-hand weapon critical hits from Whirlwind trigger Flurry and Rampage which should improve damage a bit." they're trying to call a bug fix a new feature that would increase fury dps, that's pretty good marketting on their part. There might not be much more than bug fixes and marginal changes for warriors this patch, which is a bit unfortunate for fury which could use a bit of reshuffling. Don't get me wrong warrior dps is awesome as is, I just think fury has lost a bit of ground with arms being just 'that' good for overall rdps.
Compared to Berserkers call, 5% haste is a bigger increase than 110 ap. DST is still the best trinket in the game currently.
"We plan to make the off-hand weapon critical hits from Whirlwind trigger Flurry and Rampage which should improve damage a bit." they're trying to call a bug fix a new feature that would increase fury dps, that's pretty good marketting on their part. There might not be much more than bug fixes and marginal changes for warriors this patch, which is a bit unfortunate for fury which could use a bit of reshuffling. Don't get me wrong warrior dps is awesome as is, I just think fury has lost a bit of ground with arms being just 'that' good for overall rdps.
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Originally Posted by orcsgotbooty
I used Max dps.com when we broke into t6 content, just to see what drops and then get a semi decent idea on what to toss into the my "ideal" spreadsheet of gear. As far as the dst goes on that site it is rather low on the trinket list.
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edit: About the whirlwind offhand flurry procs. This will make the flurry uptime go up by a few percent at most, not a big thing, but a nice bug fix. Hope they also fix the "last flurried crit not triggering flurry"-bug as well.
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Originally Posted by Gruntle
Since maxdps don't calculate rage generation, haste will be undervalued in all of their calculations. I wouldn't use it for anything until they make an effort to include rage generation and heroic strike damage. Get the spreadsheet instead, there are versions with item spreadsheets you can use to plan your gear (which, at least they used to, also have information on the source of the item).
edit: About the whirlwind offhand flurry procs. This will make the flurry uptime go up by a few percent at most, not a big thing, but a nice bug fix. Hope they also fix the "last flurried crit not triggering flurry"-bug as well. |
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Originally Posted by Enkidu
I don't see how the 1.5-1.7 ppm I see on most logs of DST falls in comparison to the 1 ppm TT, even at a conservative 1.5 (from a few logs, on rogues though) ppm, it's ~5% haste 40 AP versus ~56 ap 38 crit 10 hit.
Compared to Berserkers call, 5% haste is a bigger increase than 110 ap. DST is still the best trinket in the game currently. |
Machinator, why do you use dual Executioner?
Does it now stack?
Does it now stack?
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Originally Posted by Machinator
Out of curiosity then you don't use bloodlust for execute range? It depends on the fight, but most of the time I see it being more effective, and the timing really doesnt matter for anyone else but warriors. Even without that I am having a hard time seeing Berserker's, Tsunami, or (depending on gear) even MotB better than DST. With a 20 sec cooldown its somewhere around 20-25% uptime, though I want to double check my logs to verify that.
Also I see you have [Furious Shackles], but I keep getting that [Bracers of Eradication] are more dps. Any particular reason you use them? |
I use furious shackles purely because I was a warlock up until BT/Hyjal, then rerolled when a tank quit. We then proceeded to recruit an new excellent warrior, so I switched to DPS, and subsequently never got any of the SSC/TK loot. Will get the next [Deadly Cuffs] so it's not that big a deal.
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
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Originally Posted by LodeRunner
Your max crit Bloodthirst was 2k, which is just a little above my average noncrit Bloodthirst for the fight.
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hi there, one question regarding your gear since your are pvp specced atm.
i always thought the dmg compared to my equip is fairly ok. but when i read that your average bt noncrit are close to 2k i think my gear (or my skills) needs a review.
maybe (if you look at my armory link) you could give me a hint which items or socket to change. im switching gear a lot atm since i want to try out the benefits from maximum armor ignore. so generally i have like ~1900 ap unbuffed, 29% crit, 206 hit and around 350 armor ignore fix. (+ executioner mongoose on rod of the sun king + rising tide)
i nearly always have feral + melee shaman support and of course all paladinstuff.
most of the times (just bosses) i run around 1200-1600 dps (depending on situation and boss).
when saw your posting with the average noncrit bt i checked mine. its way lower, like 1100 - 1380 (max average).
how can this be? is it all about the ap? should i review my socket to 10str all over? should i enchant potency on my offhand? what values are u trying to reach in ap before you go crit? (around)
i am lowering my hit at the moment since it was way to high in the past, like 270 and i have noticed a very nice dps boost.
im trying to keep my bt and ww on cd all the time and just dumping with heroics but even with hastepotion and bloodlust and recklessness its not possible to raise more dps. 16xx on single bossmobs is my maximum atm.
which way should i go?
(the worst part of my gear are the rings. trying to upgrade them asap but since karazhan i was out of luck with ringdrops)
another question is, what do you guys do in execute range? do you execute? do you cycle? i have 2 swiftsteel maces potency enchanted where i try compare chainexecuting with the normal rotation and normal weapons. whats your experience here? i cant really make a difference.
thanks for your answers
:-)
Last edited by cainor : 02/01/08 at 6:23 AM.
Your armory link is wrong. The World of Warcraft Armory is the correct link (Using the US Azshara link and just adding "(EU)" behind the name doesn't magically turn the link into the EU version <_<).
That being said, your gear looks pretty good - apart from the weapons. Put the weapon with the Executioner enchant into your MH and the Mongoose one into your OH for better Exec uptime (guess you might have to swap the enchants to squeeze out some more DPS, too, so your slower wep is the MH with Exec). Then get a Hyjal gem for your gloves.
Apart from that use [Warrior] DPS Spreadsheet 2.3 and beyond to figure out all the small nuances of how to gear/gem (like trying S3 Chest plus epic gems vs your current one and checking which is better DPS). Also make sure you CoR bosses and keep in mind that the 2k BT figure was on a specific, low armor boss only (Teron) from what I understood.
That being said, your gear looks pretty good - apart from the weapons. Put the weapon with the Executioner enchant into your MH and the Mongoose one into your OH for better Exec uptime (guess you might have to swap the enchants to squeeze out some more DPS, too, so your slower wep is the MH with Exec). Then get a Hyjal gem for your gloves.
Apart from that use [Warrior] DPS Spreadsheet 2.3 and beyond to figure out all the small nuances of how to gear/gem (like trying S3 Chest plus epic gems vs your current one and checking which is better DPS). Also make sure you CoR bosses and keep in mind that the 2k BT figure was on a specific, low armor boss only (Teron) from what I understood.
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Originally Posted by Liar
Your armory link is wrong. The World of Warcraft Armory is the correct link (Using the US Azshara link and just adding "(EU)" behind the name doesn't magically turn the link into the EU version <_<).
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Edited onPatch 2.3.3
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Originally Posted by Liar
Your armory link is wrong. The World of Warcraft Armory is the correct link (Using the US Azshara link and just adding "(EU)" behind the name doesn't magically turn the link into the EU version <_<).
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it wants to send me to The World of Warcraft Armory
kk googles thank ya
@Liar, the reason why i have the executioner in my offhand was the row the items dropped. i had the rod way earlier and there was no executioner available. so i was a little close on money when i decided to do it this way, even though i knew it was wrong. may correct it in the future, hoping for a new mh.
i didnt want to change the hands since i thought 50 maxdmg more on the mh are a lot for my specials. would you switch the weapons just for executioner?
regarding the chest, im waiting for the midnight breastplate to drop from archimonde. or does the armor ignore on s3 makes it that much better? im always confused with armor ignore. its no compact value which you can see constant. or im just not sensitive enough :-)
Last edited by cainor : 02/01/08 at 7:05 AM.
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Originally Posted by Goggles
That link is auto generated by the forums now. I believe it's on Boethius list of things to fix.
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Originally Posted by cainor
i didnt want to change the hands since i thought 50 maxdmg more on the mh are a lot for my specials. would you switch the weapons just for executioner?
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Originally Posted by cainor
regarding the chest, im waiting for the midnight breastplate to drop from archimonde. or does the armor ignore on s3 makes it that much better? im always confused with armor ignore. its no compact value which you can see constant. or im just not sensitive enough :-)
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Solarian's Sapphire?
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Originally Posted by Murr0w
DST is that bad, eh?
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Originally Posted by Barmbul
Am i missing something DST at least per the dps sheet is better than all the trinkets and Solarian's only gives and additional 70 atk pwr to shout with no other stats..... are you figuring in the party buff?
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trinkets
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Originally Posted by Murr0w
Because it gives the equivalent of an additional unimproved battle shout to the rest of the group. Raid DPS > Personal DPS until you're farming everything in the game and you can afford to be a lazy asshole like me!
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.....
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I'm still wearing alot of Tanking gear http://www.wowarmory.com/character-s...runner&n=Sesso just changed gems so far....and I'v heard MS is better for PvP ( I pvp alot also) would it be bad to opt for some leather gear? |
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Originally Posted by Barmbul
Am i missing something DST at least per the dps sheet is better than all the trinkets and Solarian's only gives and additional 70 atk pwr to shout with no other stats..... are you figuring in the party buff?
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So, I've seen a load of arms PvE people around lately, and I was wondering if anyone had some arms PvE gear list or something with items you get from raids (or some PvP mix). I'm raiding T5 content and Kael'thas is the only one not killed. Also would generally prefer a sword since I feel that fits me better.
Thanks in advance.
//Mani
Thanks in advance.
//Mani
So it seems we are getting a small dps increase in 2.4.
"The fix in 2.4 should have Endless Rage provide significantly more rage."
"We plan to make the off-hand weapon critical hits from Whirlwind trigger Flurry and Rampage which should improve damage a bit."
"The fix in 2.4 should have Endless Rage provide significantly more rage."
"We plan to make the off-hand weapon critical hits from Whirlwind trigger Flurry and Rampage which should improve damage a bit."
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Originally Posted by Slicex
So, I've seen a load of arms PvE people around lately, and I was wondering if anyone had some arms PvE gear list or something with items you get from raids (or some PvP mix). I'm raiding T5 content and Kael'thas is the only one not killed. Also would generally prefer a sword since I feel that fits me better.
Thanks in advance. //Mani |
I've been perusing this thread hoping to find some discussion on two-hand fury viability, but to no avail. I haven't been able to find anything via the search function either. Does anyone know of a page number, thread or website which discusses this topic?
I don't play often and raiding is not a priority. However, I do have the opportunity to fill in a raid slot in non-progression content on occasion. I currently use a Deep Thunder and I'm curious how 20/41, or some variation, would compare to 33/28 considering Mace Spec's lack of appeal in PvE.
I'm particularly curious about talent distribution and attack rotations.
Sorry if these questions have already been addressed.
I don't play often and raiding is not a priority. However, I do have the opportunity to fill in a raid slot in non-progression content on occasion. I currently use a Deep Thunder and I'm curious how 20/41, or some variation, would compare to 33/28 considering Mace Spec's lack of appeal in PvE.
I'm particularly curious about talent distribution and attack rotations.
Sorry if these questions have already been addressed.
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Originally Posted by Kithelina
I've been perusing this thread hoping to find some discussion on two-hand fury viability, but to no avail. I haven't been able to find anything via the search function either. Does anyone know of a page number, thread or website which discusses this topic?
I don't play often and raiding is not a priority. However, I do have the opportunity to fill in a raid slot in non-progression content on occasion. I currently use a Deep Thunder and I'm curious how 20/41, or some variation, would compare to 33/28 considering Mace Spec's lack of appeal in PvE. I'm particularly curious about talent distribution and attack rotations. Sorry if these questions have already been addressed. |
"We plan to make the off-hand weapon critical hits from Whirlwind trigger Flurry and Rampage which should improve damage a bit."
This should be interesting keeping flurry up. I still hope they fix the offhand-last-charge-flurry-crit-no-new-flurry bug. With the offhand proccing flurry, it could be benefitial to flurry uptime and give a nice boost verses a 2-hand pve build.
This should be interesting keeping flurry up. I still hope they fix the offhand-last-charge-flurry-crit-no-new-flurry bug. With the offhand proccing flurry, it could be benefitial to flurry uptime and give a nice boost verses a 2-hand pve build.
Hello again, guys
I have written my question 1 page back but it seams not interesting or a little difficult.
Just want to repeat it: what is the best MH, OH combination for human fury (not including BS weapons and A3 weapons).
Now I have Talon in MH and Swiftsteel Bludgeon in OH.
Should I change it for sometnig else?
If anybody knows the answer or it was disscused earlier just give me a link.
Thanks for help!
I have written my question 1 page back but it seams not interesting or a little difficult.
Just want to repeat it: what is the best MH, OH combination for human fury (not including BS weapons and A3 weapons).
Now I have Talon in MH and Swiftsteel Bludgeon in OH.
Should I change it for sometnig else?
If anybody knows the answer or it was disscused earlier just give me a link.
Thanks for help!
I really wish people would not use maxdps.com. The dps and stat weights make no sense. Some of the item suggestions can get really off the wall.
I am wondering if that is where people are getting the DST being bad compared to trinkets other than Sapphire/MotB.
All calculators, spreadsheets included, must be interpreted properly. They are not always correct on what is best, right for the situation, or sometimes even accurate.
I am wondering if that is where people are getting the DST being bad compared to trinkets other than Sapphire/MotB.
All calculators, spreadsheets included, must be interpreted properly. They are not always correct on what is best, right for the situation, or sometimes even accurate.
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Originally Posted by Machinator
I really wish people would not use maxdps.com. The dps and stat weights make no sense. Some of the item suggestions can get really off the wall.
I am wondering if that is where people are getting the DST being bad compared to trinkets other than Sapphire/MotB. All calculators, spreadsheets included, must be interpreted properly. They are not always correct on what is best, right for the situation, or sometimes even accurate. |
I don't see how the 1.5-1.7 ppm I see on most logs of DST falls in comparison to the 1 ppm TT, even at a conservative 1.5 (from a few logs, on rogues though) ppm, it's ~5% haste 40 AP versus ~56 ap 38 crit 10 hit.
Compared to Berserkers call, 5% haste is a bigger increase than 110 ap. DST is still the best trinket in the game currently.
"We plan to make the off-hand weapon critical hits from Whirlwind trigger Flurry and Rampage which should improve damage a bit." they're trying to call a bug fix a new feature that would increase fury dps, that's pretty good marketting on their part. There might not be much more than bug fixes and marginal changes for warriors this patch, which is a bit unfortunate for fury which could use a bit of reshuffling. Don't get me wrong warrior dps is awesome as is, I just think fury has lost a bit of ground with arms being just 'that' good for overall rdps.
Compared to Berserkers call, 5% haste is a bigger increase than 110 ap. DST is still the best trinket in the game currently.
"We plan to make the off-hand weapon critical hits from Whirlwind trigger Flurry and Rampage which should improve damage a bit." they're trying to call a bug fix a new feature that would increase fury dps, that's pretty good marketting on their part. There might not be much more than bug fixes and marginal changes for warriors this patch, which is a bit unfortunate for fury which could use a bit of reshuffling. Don't get me wrong warrior dps is awesome as is, I just think fury has lost a bit of ground with arms being just 'that' good for overall rdps.
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Originally Posted by orcsgotbooty
I used Max dps.com when we broke into t6 content, just to see what drops and then get a semi decent idea on what to toss into the my "ideal" spreadsheet of gear. As far as the dst goes on that site it is rather low on the trinket list.
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edit: About the whirlwind offhand flurry procs. This will make the flurry uptime go up by a few percent at most, not a big thing, but a nice bug fix. Hope they also fix the "last flurried crit not triggering flurry"-bug as well.
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Originally Posted by Gruntle
Since maxdps don't calculate rage generation, haste will be undervalued in all of their calculations. I wouldn't use it for anything until they make an effort to include rage generation and heroic strike damage. Get the spreadsheet instead, there are versions with item spreadsheets you can use to plan your gear (which, at least they used to, also have information on the source of the item).
edit: About the whirlwind offhand flurry procs. This will make the flurry uptime go up by a few percent at most, not a big thing, but a nice bug fix. Hope they also fix the "last flurried crit not triggering flurry"-bug as well. |
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Originally Posted by Enkidu
I don't see how the 1.5-1.7 ppm I see on most logs of DST falls in comparison to the 1 ppm TT, even at a conservative 1.5 (from a few logs, on rogues though) ppm, it's ~5% haste 40 AP versus ~56 ap 38 crit 10 hit.
Compared to Berserkers call, 5% haste is a bigger increase than 110 ap. DST is still the best trinket in the game currently. |
Machinator, why do you use dual Executioner?
Does it now stack?
Does it now stack?
It does not stack. There are certain gear levels where the additional uptime provided by a 2nd executioner is at least as good as a mongoose enchant. I did a whole bunch of stuff on it, Im not sure if it was earlier in this thread or in the Executioner vs Mongoose one. Ill try to find it and link/repost it.
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
Cool, I'd really like to take a look at the data.
Last edited by Oathar : 02/03/08 at 4:20 AM.
I'm talking about logged averages, in a 5 minute fight TT would usually proc 5 times for a DW spec, sometimes 4. The 45 second cooldown basically makes sure of that since the on crit proc rate is fairly high. I've been using TT for months and that is just what it boils down to, 15-16% uptime is about correct.
Hey guys,
(As Fury) I've heard talk about NOT executing at 19%, and just continuing your regular DPS rotation, maybe dumping extra rage in between BT/WW with an execute.
Is this viable? And, at what gear level would this actually be worth considering?
Thanks for clearing it up for me.
(As Fury) I've heard talk about NOT executing at 19%, and just continuing your regular DPS rotation, maybe dumping extra rage in between BT/WW with an execute.
Is this viable? And, at what gear level would this actually be worth considering?
Thanks for clearing it up for me.
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
It would have been really nice if you would have just hit the 'search this thread' button, type in 'execute', hit enter and read the posts displayed on the resulting page.
Irregardless, as I understand it, execute generally loses it's spunk around T6 gear levels, moreso if you let it consume more than 25ish rage. It's a gradual thing, so it doesn't suddenly become horrible and you will have to look at your own avarage hits for the various abilities you use to figure out when the change actually occurs. Although I'm pretty sure you'll be able to find more exact figures on this if you use that search function.
Irregardless, as I understand it, execute generally loses it's spunk around T6 gear levels, moreso if you let it consume more than 25ish rage. It's a gradual thing, so it doesn't suddenly become horrible and you will have to look at your own avarage hits for the various abilities you use to figure out when the change actually occurs. Although I'm pretty sure you'll be able to find more exact figures on this if you use that search function.
Last edited by Dynalisia : 02/03/08 at 2:04 PM.
@Org
Indeed, a search on the thread for Execute would have yielded some replies of value.
In summary though, the main thing is Execute does not scale very much; 2pc T6 + Imp Execute being the sole optimisation at high gear levels. I believe the math worked out to be if you have above ~2900AP then BT when it's up as it's more efficient, Execute on the other cooldowns.
Indeed, a search on the thread for Execute would have yielded some replies of value.
In summary though, the main thing is Execute does not scale very much; 2pc T6 + Imp Execute being the sole optimisation at high gear levels. I believe the math worked out to be if you have above ~2900AP then BT when it's up as it's more efficient, Execute on the other cooldowns.
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Originally Posted by Foundry
@Org
Indeed, a search on the thread for Execute would have yielded some replies of value. In summary though, the main thing is Execute does not scale very much; 2pc T6 + Imp Execute being the sole optimisation at high gear levels. I believe the math worked out to be if you have above ~2900AP then BT when it's up as it's more efficient, Execute on the other cooldowns. |
Point taken about Armor Penetration, but that applies to all things equally (decrease in % dmg mitigated) so it's not "wrong" since the effect is the same on BT or Execute. The benefit of ArP does not split the result so offers no answer.
As to the rest, took me 20 secs just now to run the search where I got the numbers, you could try it too. If you disagree with those numbers, post up some alternative analysis to disprove it. It notes 30 rage execute vs BT, but really that is assumed to be the rage opportunity since BT is even an option.
[Warrior] Future of a DPS Warrior
As to the rest, took me 20 secs just now to run the search where I got the numbers, you could try it too. If you disagree with those numbers, post up some alternative analysis to disprove it. It notes 30 rage execute vs BT, but really that is assumed to be the rage opportunity since BT is even an option.
[Warrior] Future of a DPS Warrior
Does anyone know how much of an effect latency has on warrior DPS?
I noticed that my DPS took a dive when I changed to a slower internet (went from ~80ms to ~200ms on average w/ the TCP registry modification).
The thing is, I usually manage to get off my BT and WW whenever the CD comes down. It just seems like my DPS is being lost somewhere due to the latency, but I'm not sure how my latency would do this. White attacks shouldn't be effected at all by my latency, although there could be a very slight DPS loss due to my instants coming in slightly slower. They seem to go register instantly, though.
Also, I noticed there was roughly a 100DPS boost a while ago when I got a new computer since. It's generally the same idea - on the old comp I was hitting my BT and WW the instant they came up and they seemed to go through, yet my DPS saw a considerable boost when I switched to a comp with a better FPS.
I noticed that my DPS took a dive when I changed to a slower internet (went from ~80ms to ~200ms on average w/ the TCP registry modification).
The thing is, I usually manage to get off my BT and WW whenever the CD comes down. It just seems like my DPS is being lost somewhere due to the latency, but I'm not sure how my latency would do this. White attacks shouldn't be effected at all by my latency, although there could be a very slight DPS loss due to my instants coming in slightly slower. They seem to go register instantly, though.
Also, I noticed there was roughly a 100DPS boost a while ago when I got a new computer since. It's generally the same idea - on the old comp I was hitting my BT and WW the instant they came up and they seemed to go through, yet my DPS saw a considerable boost when I switched to a comp with a better FPS.
Yeah I saw the same kind of increase when going from my old computer (with fps usually around 10-20) to my new one (60+ fps). I attributed most of it to less time spent out of range, since quite a lot of dps time is spent moving around. With low fps you will be much slower in getting to a new position. Lag spikes and low fps will also cause you to miss BT/WW cooldowns but should not be a very big effect. I doubt you'd see a very big effect in a static fight.
Hey guys. This is just a check to make sure my calculations and values are correct. I'm currently standing at around -1050 before Executioner. T6 bosses have a minimum of 6200 armor value. So:
If normal boss debuffs are -2600 - 610 - 800 (5xsunder, faerie fire, CoR)
6200 - 2600 - 610 - 800 = -4010
From that I'll take my potential maximum penetration including Executioner proc: -1940
-4010 - 1940 = -5950
Is it safe to assume I can still stack an additional 250 armor penetration before I reach 0 armor value and start wasting the stat?
Thanks!
If normal boss debuffs are -2600 - 610 - 800 (5xsunder, faerie fire, CoR)
6200 - 2600 - 610 - 800 = -4010
From that I'll take my potential maximum penetration including Executioner proc: -1940
-4010 - 1940 = -5950
Is it safe to assume I can still stack an additional 250 armor penetration before I reach 0 armor value and start wasting the stat?
Thanks!
Small update, I was going over my DPS, rotations, etc. Trying to find out what it was that might be gimping my DPS.
For the most part my hit gear has gotten lower, and I've felt rage starved, in addition, using 2 2.6 speed weapons means when Flurry is down, I really, really feel rage starved, and my DPS just drops, it's not uncommon even raid buffed for me to sit there for 5-10 seconds at a time with no Flurry procs(The Flurry bug I bitched about that hasn't been fixed yet also doesn't help -_-)
So this week in Black Temple I decided to throw Hamstring back into my skill rotation, I figured the additional crits from Hamstring would do more harm then good. I tested it out in Blasted Lands first. Using a BT/WW with Heroic Strike rotation at first, that resulted in around 1200-1250DPS on those Blasted Mobs. Then I switched over to a BT->WW->HamS->HamS rotation, and noticed my DPS was floating around 1300-1350 on average for that rotation. I did 1 million damage about 6 times for 6 different tests, and decided using Hamstring in a live environment wouldn't hurt.
So this week in Black Temple I gave it a whirl, and my overall DPS was much much better. :X Was averaging 1700-1800 on most boss fights on AVERAGE, and a record high 2050 on Mr. Teron Gorefiend, not bad for a first go round of it. I still felt awkward at times, and actually wasted rage hitting Hamstring when BT was up -_-, but as I get more comfortable with it, I should see steady improvement as I polish it all out.
For the most part my hit gear has gotten lower, and I've felt rage starved, in addition, using 2 2.6 speed weapons means when Flurry is down, I really, really feel rage starved, and my DPS just drops, it's not uncommon even raid buffed for me to sit there for 5-10 seconds at a time with no Flurry procs(The Flurry bug I bitched about that hasn't been fixed yet also doesn't help -_-)
So this week in Black Temple I decided to throw Hamstring back into my skill rotation, I figured the additional crits from Hamstring would do more harm then good. I tested it out in Blasted Lands first. Using a BT/WW with Heroic Strike rotation at first, that resulted in around 1200-1250DPS on those Blasted Mobs. Then I switched over to a BT->WW->HamS->HamS rotation, and noticed my DPS was floating around 1300-1350 on average for that rotation. I did 1 million damage about 6 times for 6 different tests, and decided using Hamstring in a live environment wouldn't hurt.
So this week in Black Temple I gave it a whirl, and my overall DPS was much much better. :X Was averaging 1700-1800 on most boss fights on AVERAGE, and a record high 2050 on Mr. Teron Gorefiend, not bad for a first go round of it. I still felt awkward at times, and actually wasted rage hitting Hamstring when BT was up -_-, but as I get more comfortable with it, I should see steady improvement as I polish it all out.
You get the same effect with pummel. Harmstring adds a bit more dmg but at the cost of bonus aggro. Depending on the fight it's always a good idea to trigger flurry when BT/WW have cd. I'm using 2,7 speed weapons and I tested it during some raids. At least if rage is not limited it's a good option for a better flurry uptime.
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Originally Posted by Emeraude
So this week in Black Temple I decided to throw Hamstring back into my skill rotation, I figured the additional crits from Hamstring would do more harm then good. I tested it out in Blasted Lands first. Using a BT/WW with Heroic Strike rotation at first, that resulted in around 1200-1250DPS on those Blasted Mobs. Then I switched over to a BT->WW->HamS->HamS rotation, and noticed my DPS was floating around 1300-1350 on average for that rotation. I did 1 million damage about 6 times for 6 different tests, and decided using Hamstring in a live environment wouldn't hurt.
So this week in Black Temple I gave it a whirl, and my overall DPS was much much better. :X Was averaging 1700-1800 on most boss fights on AVERAGE, and a record high 2050 on Mr. Teron Gorefiend, not bad for a first go round of it. I still felt awkward at times, and actually wasted rage hitting Hamstring when BT was up -_-, but as I get more comfortable with it, I should see steady improvement as I polish it all out. |
I guess you made mistakes when you hit Hamstring over BT? If you choose to do that, you should look over your cycle (perhaps use a castsequence macro to make sure that you never use hamstring at the wrong moment). There is no way you "should" hit hamstring if BT is up (I guess you know that, but I didn't quite get what you meant in the last section
)I think she was referring to a general buttons spamming mistake; it happens.
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
nvm I figured out the answer!
Last edited by Heaton : 02/06/08 at 6:04 PM.
Doing BT>Execute you get something like the following. It really ramped up at the end.
Wow Web Stats
Wow Web Stats
Wow Web Stats
Wow Web Stats
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Originally Posted by Emeraude
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BT > WW > HString ... but I use a GCD always (unless BT is 1/2 a second or so from cd and there is ample rage) rather than sit and wait.
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
I want to thank everybody who contributes to this thread. I've been reading EJ for the last 4 months or so, following this thread and the warrior dps spreadsheet, thanks dr_allcom3.
This week in TK and SSC I was able to achieve my goal of 1000 dps, on a boss. Actually I did around ~1100 dps on Solarian, VR and Morogrim, without a flask.
Here is my WWS Loading.... Group comp was Feral druid, Resto Shammy, BM Hunter, Rogue, Furry Warrior(me). I still need to improve on not using Rampage too early. If you guys see anything else in the WWS that could help me improve please let me know.
This week in TK and SSC I was able to achieve my goal of 1000 dps, on a boss. Actually I did around ~1100 dps on Solarian, VR and Morogrim, without a flask.
Here is my WWS Loading.... Group comp was Feral druid, Resto Shammy, BM Hunter, Rogue, Furry Warrior(me). I still need to improve on not using Rampage too early. If you guys see anything else in the WWS that could help me improve please let me know.
Last edited by Bulvine : 02/07/08 at 11:28 AM.
There is one thing that is never mentioned in any spreadsheet or pretty much anywhere, the [Mark of the Champion] from Kel. It's a static 150 AP on demon/undead fights like Teron, Supremus, and Illidan. I've always switched out other trinkets to make room for it because I naturally assumed it was superior. [Berserker's Call], if I'm doing simple math right, seems like it also grants 150 Ap if you use it every cooldown. Is that about right? For a fight like Teron I'm using the Mark and the DST I just snagged from a PUG Gruul last week. I'm just wondering why this trinket is never mentioned/discussed.
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Originally Posted by LodeRunner
There is one thing that is never mentioned in any spreadsheet or pretty much anywhere, the [Mark of the Champion] from Kel. It's a static 150 AP on demon/undead fights like Teron, Supremus, and Illidan. I've always switched out other trinkets to make room for it because I naturally assumed it was superior. [Berserker's Call], if I'm doing simple math right, seems like it also grants 150 Ap if you use it every cooldown. Is that about right? For a fight like Teron I'm using the Mark and the DST I just snagged from a PUG Gruul last week. I'm just wondering why this trinket is never mentioned/discussed.
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I see it as one of the "nice to have but can live without" trinkets.
Hmm is there a fury warrior/ 2h dps warrior guide for Best-in-slot gear?? Just curious is all..
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Originally Posted by seasonlight
Hmm is there a fury warrior/ 2h dps warrior guide for Best-in-slot gear?? Just curious is all..
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[Warrior] Endgame PvE 2-Hand
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Originally Posted by dr_AllCOM3
Doing BT>Execute you get something like the following. It really ramped up at the end.
Wow Web Stats Wow Web Stats |
hmmm how do u get such high dps on kazrogal, i seem to sit between 5th and 6th cause of the stun etc...
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Originally Posted by seasonlight
hmmm how do u get such high dps on kazrogal, i seem to sit between 5th and 6th cause of the stun etc...
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It does not stack. There are certain gear levels where the additional uptime provided by a 2nd executioner is at least as good as a mongoose enchant. I did a whole bunch of stuff on it, Im not sure if it was earlier in this thread or in the Executioner vs Mongoose one. Ill try to find it and link/repost it.
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
Cool, I'd really like to take a look at the data.
Last edited by Oathar : 02/03/08 at 4:20 AM.
I'm talking about logged averages, in a 5 minute fight TT would usually proc 5 times for a DW spec, sometimes 4. The 45 second cooldown basically makes sure of that since the on crit proc rate is fairly high. I've been using TT for months and that is just what it boils down to, 15-16% uptime is about correct.
Hey guys,
(As Fury) I've heard talk about NOT executing at 19%, and just continuing your regular DPS rotation, maybe dumping extra rage in between BT/WW with an execute.
Is this viable? And, at what gear level would this actually be worth considering?
Thanks for clearing it up for me.
(As Fury) I've heard talk about NOT executing at 19%, and just continuing your regular DPS rotation, maybe dumping extra rage in between BT/WW with an execute.
Is this viable? And, at what gear level would this actually be worth considering?
Thanks for clearing it up for me.
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
It would have been really nice if you would have just hit the 'search this thread' button, type in 'execute', hit enter and read the posts displayed on the resulting page.
Irregardless, as I understand it, execute generally loses it's spunk around T6 gear levels, moreso if you let it consume more than 25ish rage. It's a gradual thing, so it doesn't suddenly become horrible and you will have to look at your own avarage hits for the various abilities you use to figure out when the change actually occurs. Although I'm pretty sure you'll be able to find more exact figures on this if you use that search function.
Irregardless, as I understand it, execute generally loses it's spunk around T6 gear levels, moreso if you let it consume more than 25ish rage. It's a gradual thing, so it doesn't suddenly become horrible and you will have to look at your own avarage hits for the various abilities you use to figure out when the change actually occurs. Although I'm pretty sure you'll be able to find more exact figures on this if you use that search function.
Last edited by Dynalisia : 02/03/08 at 2:04 PM.
@Org
Indeed, a search on the thread for Execute would have yielded some replies of value.
In summary though, the main thing is Execute does not scale very much; 2pc T6 + Imp Execute being the sole optimisation at high gear levels. I believe the math worked out to be if you have above ~2900AP then BT when it's up as it's more efficient, Execute on the other cooldowns.
Indeed, a search on the thread for Execute would have yielded some replies of value.
In summary though, the main thing is Execute does not scale very much; 2pc T6 + Imp Execute being the sole optimisation at high gear levels. I believe the math worked out to be if you have above ~2900AP then BT when it's up as it's more efficient, Execute on the other cooldowns.
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Originally Posted by Foundry
@Org
Indeed, a search on the thread for Execute would have yielded some replies of value. In summary though, the main thing is Execute does not scale very much; 2pc T6 + Imp Execute being the sole optimisation at high gear levels. I believe the math worked out to be if you have above ~2900AP then BT when it's up as it's more efficient, Execute on the other cooldowns. |
Point taken about Armor Penetration, but that applies to all things equally (decrease in % dmg mitigated) so it's not "wrong" since the effect is the same on BT or Execute. The benefit of ArP does not split the result so offers no answer.
As to the rest, took me 20 secs just now to run the search where I got the numbers, you could try it too. If you disagree with those numbers, post up some alternative analysis to disprove it. It notes 30 rage execute vs BT, but really that is assumed to be the rage opportunity since BT is even an option.
[Warrior] Future of a DPS Warrior
As to the rest, took me 20 secs just now to run the search where I got the numbers, you could try it too. If you disagree with those numbers, post up some alternative analysis to disprove it. It notes 30 rage execute vs BT, but really that is assumed to be the rage opportunity since BT is even an option.
[Warrior] Future of a DPS Warrior
Does anyone know how much of an effect latency has on warrior DPS?
I noticed that my DPS took a dive when I changed to a slower internet (went from ~80ms to ~200ms on average w/ the TCP registry modification).
The thing is, I usually manage to get off my BT and WW whenever the CD comes down. It just seems like my DPS is being lost somewhere due to the latency, but I'm not sure how my latency would do this. White attacks shouldn't be effected at all by my latency, although there could be a very slight DPS loss due to my instants coming in slightly slower. They seem to go register instantly, though.
Also, I noticed there was roughly a 100DPS boost a while ago when I got a new computer since. It's generally the same idea - on the old comp I was hitting my BT and WW the instant they came up and they seemed to go through, yet my DPS saw a considerable boost when I switched to a comp with a better FPS.
I noticed that my DPS took a dive when I changed to a slower internet (went from ~80ms to ~200ms on average w/ the TCP registry modification).
The thing is, I usually manage to get off my BT and WW whenever the CD comes down. It just seems like my DPS is being lost somewhere due to the latency, but I'm not sure how my latency would do this. White attacks shouldn't be effected at all by my latency, although there could be a very slight DPS loss due to my instants coming in slightly slower. They seem to go register instantly, though.
Also, I noticed there was roughly a 100DPS boost a while ago when I got a new computer since. It's generally the same idea - on the old comp I was hitting my BT and WW the instant they came up and they seemed to go through, yet my DPS saw a considerable boost when I switched to a comp with a better FPS.
Yeah I saw the same kind of increase when going from my old computer (with fps usually around 10-20) to my new one (60+ fps). I attributed most of it to less time spent out of range, since quite a lot of dps time is spent moving around. With low fps you will be much slower in getting to a new position. Lag spikes and low fps will also cause you to miss BT/WW cooldowns but should not be a very big effect. I doubt you'd see a very big effect in a static fight.
Hey guys. This is just a check to make sure my calculations and values are correct. I'm currently standing at around -1050 before Executioner. T6 bosses have a minimum of 6200 armor value. So:
If normal boss debuffs are -2600 - 610 - 800 (5xsunder, faerie fire, CoR)
6200 - 2600 - 610 - 800 = -4010
From that I'll take my potential maximum penetration including Executioner proc: -1940
-4010 - 1940 = -5950
Is it safe to assume I can still stack an additional 250 armor penetration before I reach 0 armor value and start wasting the stat?
Thanks!
If normal boss debuffs are -2600 - 610 - 800 (5xsunder, faerie fire, CoR)
6200 - 2600 - 610 - 800 = -4010
From that I'll take my potential maximum penetration including Executioner proc: -1940
-4010 - 1940 = -5950
Is it safe to assume I can still stack an additional 250 armor penetration before I reach 0 armor value and start wasting the stat?
Thanks!
Small update, I was going over my DPS, rotations, etc. Trying to find out what it was that might be gimping my DPS.
For the most part my hit gear has gotten lower, and I've felt rage starved, in addition, using 2 2.6 speed weapons means when Flurry is down, I really, really feel rage starved, and my DPS just drops, it's not uncommon even raid buffed for me to sit there for 5-10 seconds at a time with no Flurry procs(The Flurry bug I bitched about that hasn't been fixed yet also doesn't help -_-)
So this week in Black Temple I decided to throw Hamstring back into my skill rotation, I figured the additional crits from Hamstring would do more harm then good. I tested it out in Blasted Lands first. Using a BT/WW with Heroic Strike rotation at first, that resulted in around 1200-1250DPS on those Blasted Mobs. Then I switched over to a BT->WW->HamS->HamS rotation, and noticed my DPS was floating around 1300-1350 on average for that rotation. I did 1 million damage about 6 times for 6 different tests, and decided using Hamstring in a live environment wouldn't hurt.
So this week in Black Temple I gave it a whirl, and my overall DPS was much much better. :X Was averaging 1700-1800 on most boss fights on AVERAGE, and a record high 2050 on Mr. Teron Gorefiend, not bad for a first go round of it. I still felt awkward at times, and actually wasted rage hitting Hamstring when BT was up -_-, but as I get more comfortable with it, I should see steady improvement as I polish it all out.
For the most part my hit gear has gotten lower, and I've felt rage starved, in addition, using 2 2.6 speed weapons means when Flurry is down, I really, really feel rage starved, and my DPS just drops, it's not uncommon even raid buffed for me to sit there for 5-10 seconds at a time with no Flurry procs(The Flurry bug I bitched about that hasn't been fixed yet also doesn't help -_-)
So this week in Black Temple I decided to throw Hamstring back into my skill rotation, I figured the additional crits from Hamstring would do more harm then good. I tested it out in Blasted Lands first. Using a BT/WW with Heroic Strike rotation at first, that resulted in around 1200-1250DPS on those Blasted Mobs. Then I switched over to a BT->WW->HamS->HamS rotation, and noticed my DPS was floating around 1300-1350 on average for that rotation. I did 1 million damage about 6 times for 6 different tests, and decided using Hamstring in a live environment wouldn't hurt.
So this week in Black Temple I gave it a whirl, and my overall DPS was much much better. :X Was averaging 1700-1800 on most boss fights on AVERAGE, and a record high 2050 on Mr. Teron Gorefiend, not bad for a first go round of it. I still felt awkward at times, and actually wasted rage hitting Hamstring when BT was up -_-, but as I get more comfortable with it, I should see steady improvement as I polish it all out.
You get the same effect with pummel. Harmstring adds a bit more dmg but at the cost of bonus aggro. Depending on the fight it's always a good idea to trigger flurry when BT/WW have cd. I'm using 2,7 speed weapons and I tested it during some raids. At least if rage is not limited it's a good option for a better flurry uptime.
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Originally Posted by Emeraude
So this week in Black Temple I decided to throw Hamstring back into my skill rotation, I figured the additional crits from Hamstring would do more harm then good. I tested it out in Blasted Lands first. Using a BT/WW with Heroic Strike rotation at first, that resulted in around 1200-1250DPS on those Blasted Mobs. Then I switched over to a BT->WW->HamS->HamS rotation, and noticed my DPS was floating around 1300-1350 on average for that rotation. I did 1 million damage about 6 times for 6 different tests, and decided using Hamstring in a live environment wouldn't hurt.
So this week in Black Temple I gave it a whirl, and my overall DPS was much much better. :X Was averaging 1700-1800 on most boss fights on AVERAGE, and a record high 2050 on Mr. Teron Gorefiend, not bad for a first go round of it. I still felt awkward at times, and actually wasted rage hitting Hamstring when BT was up -_-, but as I get more comfortable with it, I should see steady improvement as I polish it all out. |
I guess you made mistakes when you hit Hamstring over BT? If you choose to do that, you should look over your cycle (perhaps use a castsequence macro to make sure that you never use hamstring at the wrong moment). There is no way you "should" hit hamstring if BT is up (I guess you know that, but I didn't quite get what you meant in the last section
)I think she was referring to a general buttons spamming mistake; it happens.
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
nvm I figured out the answer!
Last edited by Heaton : 02/06/08 at 6:04 PM.
Doing BT>Execute you get something like the following. It really ramped up at the end.
Wow Web Stats
Wow Web Stats
Wow Web Stats
Wow Web Stats
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Originally Posted by Emeraude
...
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BT > WW > HString ... but I use a GCD always (unless BT is 1/2 a second or so from cd and there is ample rage) rather than sit and wait.
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
I want to thank everybody who contributes to this thread. I've been reading EJ for the last 4 months or so, following this thread and the warrior dps spreadsheet, thanks dr_allcom3.
This week in TK and SSC I was able to achieve my goal of 1000 dps, on a boss. Actually I did around ~1100 dps on Solarian, VR and Morogrim, without a flask.
Here is my WWS Loading.... Group comp was Feral druid, Resto Shammy, BM Hunter, Rogue, Furry Warrior(me). I still need to improve on not using Rampage too early. If you guys see anything else in the WWS that could help me improve please let me know.
This week in TK and SSC I was able to achieve my goal of 1000 dps, on a boss. Actually I did around ~1100 dps on Solarian, VR and Morogrim, without a flask.
Here is my WWS Loading.... Group comp was Feral druid, Resto Shammy, BM Hunter, Rogue, Furry Warrior(me). I still need to improve on not using Rampage too early. If you guys see anything else in the WWS that could help me improve please let me know.
Last edited by Bulvine : 02/07/08 at 11:28 AM.
There is one thing that is never mentioned in any spreadsheet or pretty much anywhere, the [Mark of the Champion] from Kel. It's a static 150 AP on demon/undead fights like Teron, Supremus, and Illidan. I've always switched out other trinkets to make room for it because I naturally assumed it was superior. [Berserker's Call], if I'm doing simple math right, seems like it also grants 150 Ap if you use it every cooldown. Is that about right? For a fight like Teron I'm using the Mark and the DST I just snagged from a PUG Gruul last week. I'm just wondering why this trinket is never mentioned/discussed.
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Originally Posted by LodeRunner
There is one thing that is never mentioned in any spreadsheet or pretty much anywhere, the [Mark of the Champion] from Kel. It's a static 150 AP on demon/undead fights like Teron, Supremus, and Illidan. I've always switched out other trinkets to make room for it because I naturally assumed it was superior. [Berserker's Call], if I'm doing simple math right, seems like it also grants 150 Ap if you use it every cooldown. Is that about right? For a fight like Teron I'm using the Mark and the DST I just snagged from a PUG Gruul last week. I'm just wondering why this trinket is never mentioned/discussed.
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I see it as one of the "nice to have but can live without" trinkets.
Hmm is there a fury warrior/ 2h dps warrior guide for Best-in-slot gear?? Just curious is all..
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Originally Posted by seasonlight
Hmm is there a fury warrior/ 2h dps warrior guide for Best-in-slot gear?? Just curious is all..
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[Warrior] Endgame PvE 2-Hand
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Originally Posted by dr_AllCOM3
Doing BT>Execute you get something like the following. It really ramped up at the end.
Wow Web Stats Wow Web Stats |
hmmm how do u get such high dps on kazrogal, i seem to sit between 5th and 6th cause of the stun etc...
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Originally Posted by seasonlight
hmmm how do u get such high dps on kazrogal, i seem to sit between 5th and 6th cause of the stun etc...
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Originally Posted by Emeraude
He's a dirty filthy Tauren, and the stun doesn't hit them. :X
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Originally Posted by Mjollnir
I've noticed feast and famine a lot as well. I've only recently (2wks ago) switched to a slow/slow setup and am still getting used to it. I've also noticed smoother rage generation while spamming HString. I'm getting better about making sure BT and WW are available (enough rage) whenever they are off cd, however I don't wait for rage if they are off cd, but insufficient rage to use them. I will hit HString (same reason- Flurry proc) while waiting for the slow white hits to bring in rage.
BT > WW > HString ... but I use a GCD always (unless BT is 1/2 a second or so from cd and there is ample rage) rather than sit and wait. |
I am trying to find some way to work streaks into spreadsheets but will probably have to settle for an approximation(which is what sheets are anyway). I suspect that the gap between fast and slow is smaller than people think. It all depends on your hit of course, but its hard to get over ~14% +hit without losing other stuff.
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Originally Posted by Eledorian
I heard a rumor that chugging a winterfall firewater fixes that for non-taurens (excluding gnomes probably :P). Anyone know if that actually works?
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the slight loss of ap would not matter that much if youre able to dps the whole time without getting stunned. i'll make sure to try this next week.
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Originally Posted by Kirion
Problem is, winterfall firewater is a battle elixir.
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Originally Posted by Eledorian
I think the dps time gained from outranging the stun would make up for the loss in AP. Considering that Kaz stuns rather frequently.
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Originally Posted by Emeraude
He's a dirty filthy Tauren, and the stun doesn't hit them. :X
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Originally Posted by Emeraude
He's a dirty filthy Tauren, and the stun doesn't hit them. :X
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Originally Posted by mikebro
He also never gets Cripple once, is that the same range as warstomp or just some luck?
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Yesterday I only got 1,9k
still first.|
Originally Posted by dr_AllCOM3
A sexy female Tauren would be correct.
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I'm used to running with Slow/Fast and I got kind of used to the smooth rage generation.
I tried Slow/Slow a week back and I found that sticking to my usual rotation was hard with around 12% hit, wondering if you use HS less with Slow/Slow then you would with Slow/Fast?
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Originally Posted by Eledorian
If you don't mind me asking, how do you handle your rage with around 10% hit with Slow/Slow weapon combination?
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I have a little question about Cloak of Fiends:
Atm I'm wearing Dory's Embrace, and I'm at 616 passive ArP. Spreadsheet is telling me Cloak of Fiends is 1,6 more DPS with CoR + Fearie Fire on the boss (14,56% haste with Cloak of Fiends) and 504 ArP. So should I wear Cloak of Fiends, or stay with Dory's Embrace (12 stamina and 20 Res more)?
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Originally Posted by Eledorian
If you don't mind me asking, how do you handle your rage with around 10% hit with Slow/Slow weapon combination?
I'm used to running with Slow/Fast and I got kind of used to the smooth rage generation. I tried Slow/Slow a week back and I found that sticking to my usual rotation was hard with around 12% hit, wondering if you use HS less with Slow/Slow then you would with Slow/Fast? |
Yes, try to save some rage. About 30, so you can always hit BT.
More +hit or a fast offhand is like trading some damage for an easier handling.
More +hit or a fast offhand is like trading some damage for an easier handling.
Hey everyone. First post here, forgive my ignorance or any slipups, just let me know.
My guild is going into MH/BT, and I'm the only dps warrior. We are melee light, and don't have active everyday enh shamans or feral druids, just a few rogues and myself, and 1-2 hunters. Would it be worth speccing 33/28, or should I stay as 17/44? Perhaps I should spec 31/30 when I get CE?
My guild is going into MH/BT, and I'm the only dps warrior. We are melee light, and don't have active everyday enh shamans or feral druids, just a few rogues and myself, and 1-2 hunters. Would it be worth speccing 33/28, or should I stay as 17/44? Perhaps I should spec 31/30 when I get CE?
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Originally Posted by Mattam
Hey everyone. First post here, forgive my ignorance or any slipups, just let me know.
My guild is going into MH/BT, and I'm the only dps warrior. We are melee light, and don't have active everyday enh shamans or feral druids, just a few rogues and myself, and 1-2 hunters. Would it be worth speccing 33/28, or should I stay as 17/44? Perhaps I should spec 31/30 when I get CE? |
How much dps do you do as arms? If you're 31 in arms and no BFrenzy (33 in arms), you are officially a complete waste of a raid slot. You are doing less dmg, more threat, and no raid buff compared to fury.
As soon as your personal dps (as arms) + 4% of all physical dps > your personal dps (as fury) + all other physical dps, then you make the switch. Typically, even if you are melee light, just having 4-5 other physical dps will prove BFrenzy being the more beneficial spec. (In other words, Blizz needs to make fury raid-worthy again.)
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Originally Posted by Mattam
Hey everyone. First post here, forgive my ignorance or any slipups, just let me know.
My guild is going into MH/BT, and I'm the only dps warrior. We are melee light, and don't have active everyday enh shamans or feral druids, just a few rogues and myself, and 1-2 hunters. Would it be worth speccing 33/28, or should I stay as 17/44? Perhaps I should spec 31/30 when I get CE? |
Total raid dps: 16018
Psysical dps in raid: 9051 (3 hunters, 2 rogues, 1 fury, 1 prot in dps gear, 1 prot tank, 2 ferals)
If Deep wounds have 100% uptime, that means the BF equals 362 dps. In my experience, Deep Wounds should have over 90% uptime.
Just check your WWS logs for psys damage and calculate the effect of BF. If it's greater than the dps difference between your specs, you spec 33/28
Last edited by Mia : Yesterday at 1:16 PM. Reason: Clarified a sentence
Meta gem question
Hi, I've been searching for a topic where meta gems for warriors were discussed, but so far I havent had any luck, therefore I decided to post my question here;
- What meta gem is best for PvE, 12agi 3% increased crit dmg, or the 24ap and minor run speed one, for a warrior raiding MH/BT using the S3 helm?
Thanks in advance, Zonekiller.
- What meta gem is best for PvE, 12agi 3% increased crit dmg, or the 24ap and minor run speed one, for a warrior raiding MH/BT using the S3 helm?
Thanks in advance, Zonekiller.
The [Relentless Earthstorm Diamond] is by far the best option.
http://static.mmo-champion.com/mmoc/...blacksmith.jpg
Absolutely amazing. These beat out Tier 6, Grips of Silent Justice(If you can afford to lose some armor pen).
The Future of the DPS Warrior seems bright.
Absolutely amazing. These beat out Tier 6, Grips of Silent Justice(If you can afford to lose some armor pen).
The Future of the DPS Warrior seems bright.
Edited onundefined
T6 belt and bracers are nice alternatives to [Red Belt of Battle] and [Bracers of Eradication], if you don't mind trading off some +hit, and make the 2 and 4 set bonuses easier to get...mmm
Last edited by gemmanite : Today at 1:18 AM.
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Originally Posted by gemmanite
T6 belt and bracers are nice alternatives to Red Belt of Battle and Bracers of Eradication and make the 2 and 4 set bonuses easier to get...mmm
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Actually the Leatherworking gloves are quite ridiculous, and BoE.
http://static.mmo-champion.com/mmoc/...herworking.jpg
Going from Grips to those you gain 2.39% Crit, 10AP. you lose 21 Armor pen and 15 hit(.94% Hit).
Pretty nice.
http://static.mmo-champion.com/mmoc/...herworking.jpg
Going from Grips to those you gain 2.39% Crit, 10AP. you lose 21 Armor pen and 15 hit(.94% Hit).
Pretty nice.
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Originally Posted by Emeraude
http://static.mmo-champion.com/mmoc/...blacksmith.jpg
Absolutely amazing. These beat out Tier 6, Grips of Silent Justice(If you can afford to lose some armor pen). |
Edited onundefined
Done some theorycrafting with the new items in the Spreadsheet:
Hard Khorium Breastplate, best breastplate ever. Hard Khorium Gloves are also very nice, but clearly not as nice as the Leatherworking ones.
Bracers + Belt from T6 are very nice upgrades (both 35+ DPS over RBOB / Bracers of Eradication). The boots aren't so good though, even worse than Dreadboots.
edited: misread.
to Graul: according to spreadsheet the Khorium Gloves are clearly better.
Hard Khorium Breastplate, best breastplate ever. Hard Khorium Gloves are also very nice, but clearly not as nice as the Leatherworking ones.
Bracers + Belt from T6 are very nice upgrades (both 35+ DPS over RBOB / Bracers of Eradication). The boots aren't so good though, even worse than Dreadboots.
edited: misread.
to Graul: according to spreadsheet the Khorium Gloves are clearly better.
Last edited by Kaan : Today at 3:39 AM.
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Originally Posted by Graul
They look like a craftable upgraded [Pillager's Gauntlets]. Is 8 str and 2.2% haste really an upgrade over 175 Arp? Both gloves seem to be a wash unless you are using a 2h and are already at the Arp "cap". And I don't understand why so many items have haste on them. It was a moderately questionable stat prior to the nerf, and almost certainly not worth it after except maybe a supplemental piece here or there if again you are using a 2h. So far, the only item I can see that is a "clear" upgrade would be the new bracers. But then that's to be expected since the old came from a T5 dungeon.
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I'm suprised that the plate chestpiece is pretty much being ignored though. It looks like the new best-in-slot plate chestpiece. Even if you desperately needed the hit on it, if you put 3 +10 hit gems in it, then compared it to the [Heartshatter Breastplate]
You trade off:
-2 Strength
+10 Stamina
-3 Crit Rating
+280 Armor Pen
Which seems like a decent upgrade. Same goes for [Onslaught Breastplate].
+8 Strength
+0.82% crit (~18 crit rating)
+1 stam
-16 hit
+154 Armor Pen
You're also way more likely to get the crafted BP's socket bonus of +4 crit rating since all the sockets are red.
Speaking of haste, did anyone see the new tanking chest piece off of a vendor? http://www.worldofraids.com/2008/ptr/24/plate.jpg 2nd column, bottom item. What is up with 40 haste on that? I hope it's a typo. They just gave us expertise, now they're giving us haste to increase parry-gibbing ourselves again
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Originally Posted by Graul
They look like a craftable upgraded [Pillager's Gauntlets]. Is 8 str and 2.2% haste really an upgrade over 175 Arp? Both gloves seem to be a wash unless you are using a 2h and are already at the Arp "cap". And I don't understand why so many items have haste on them. It was a moderately questionable stat prior to the nerf, and almost certainly not worth it after except maybe a supplemental piece here or there if again you are using a 2h. So far, the only item I can see that is a "clear" upgrade would be the new bracers. But then that's to be expected since the old came from a T5 dungeon.
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Originally Posted by Emeraude
He's a dirty filthy Tauren, and the stun doesn't hit them. :X
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Originally Posted by Mjollnir
I've noticed feast and famine a lot as well. I've only recently (2wks ago) switched to a slow/slow setup and am still getting used to it. I've also noticed smoother rage generation while spamming HString. I'm getting better about making sure BT and WW are available (enough rage) whenever they are off cd, however I don't wait for rage if they are off cd, but insufficient rage to use them. I will hit HString (same reason- Flurry proc) while waiting for the slow white hits to bring in rage.
BT > WW > HString ... but I use a GCD always (unless BT is 1/2 a second or so from cd and there is ample rage) rather than sit and wait. |
I am trying to find some way to work streaks into spreadsheets but will probably have to settle for an approximation(which is what sheets are anyway). I suspect that the gap between fast and slow is smaller than people think. It all depends on your hit of course, but its hard to get over ~14% +hit without losing other stuff.
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Originally Posted by Eledorian
I heard a rumor that chugging a winterfall firewater fixes that for non-taurens (excluding gnomes probably :P). Anyone know if that actually works?
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the slight loss of ap would not matter that much if youre able to dps the whole time without getting stunned. i'll make sure to try this next week.
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Originally Posted by Kirion
Problem is, winterfall firewater is a battle elixir.
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Originally Posted by Eledorian
I think the dps time gained from outranging the stun would make up for the loss in AP. Considering that Kaz stuns rather frequently.
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Originally Posted by Emeraude
He's a dirty filthy Tauren, and the stun doesn't hit them. :X
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Originally Posted by Emeraude
He's a dirty filthy Tauren, and the stun doesn't hit them. :X
|
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Originally Posted by mikebro
He also never gets Cripple once, is that the same range as warstomp or just some luck?
|
Yesterday I only got 1,9k
still first.|
Originally Posted by dr_AllCOM3
A sexy female Tauren would be correct.
|
I'm used to running with Slow/Fast and I got kind of used to the smooth rage generation.
I tried Slow/Slow a week back and I found that sticking to my usual rotation was hard with around 12% hit, wondering if you use HS less with Slow/Slow then you would with Slow/Fast?
|
Originally Posted by Eledorian
If you don't mind me asking, how do you handle your rage with around 10% hit with Slow/Slow weapon combination?
|
I have a little question about Cloak of Fiends:
Atm I'm wearing Dory's Embrace, and I'm at 616 passive ArP. Spreadsheet is telling me Cloak of Fiends is 1,6 more DPS with CoR + Fearie Fire on the boss (14,56% haste with Cloak of Fiends) and 504 ArP. So should I wear Cloak of Fiends, or stay with Dory's Embrace (12 stamina and 20 Res more)?
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Originally Posted by Eledorian
If you don't mind me asking, how do you handle your rage with around 10% hit with Slow/Slow weapon combination?
I'm used to running with Slow/Fast and I got kind of used to the smooth rage generation. I tried Slow/Slow a week back and I found that sticking to my usual rotation was hard with around 12% hit, wondering if you use HS less with Slow/Slow then you would with Slow/Fast? |
Yes, try to save some rage. About 30, so you can always hit BT.
More +hit or a fast offhand is like trading some damage for an easier handling.
More +hit or a fast offhand is like trading some damage for an easier handling.
Hey everyone. First post here, forgive my ignorance or any slipups, just let me know.
My guild is going into MH/BT, and I'm the only dps warrior. We are melee light, and don't have active everyday enh shamans or feral druids, just a few rogues and myself, and 1-2 hunters. Would it be worth speccing 33/28, or should I stay as 17/44? Perhaps I should spec 31/30 when I get CE?
My guild is going into MH/BT, and I'm the only dps warrior. We are melee light, and don't have active everyday enh shamans or feral druids, just a few rogues and myself, and 1-2 hunters. Would it be worth speccing 33/28, or should I stay as 17/44? Perhaps I should spec 31/30 when I get CE?
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Originally Posted by Mattam
Hey everyone. First post here, forgive my ignorance or any slipups, just let me know.
My guild is going into MH/BT, and I'm the only dps warrior. We are melee light, and don't have active everyday enh shamans or feral druids, just a few rogues and myself, and 1-2 hunters. Would it be worth speccing 33/28, or should I stay as 17/44? Perhaps I should spec 31/30 when I get CE? |
How much dps do you do as arms? If you're 31 in arms and no BFrenzy (33 in arms), you are officially a complete waste of a raid slot. You are doing less dmg, more threat, and no raid buff compared to fury.
As soon as your personal dps (as arms) + 4% of all physical dps > your personal dps (as fury) + all other physical dps, then you make the switch. Typically, even if you are melee light, just having 4-5 other physical dps will prove BFrenzy being the more beneficial spec. (In other words, Blizz needs to make fury raid-worthy again.)
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Originally Posted by Mattam
Hey everyone. First post here, forgive my ignorance or any slipups, just let me know.
My guild is going into MH/BT, and I'm the only dps warrior. We are melee light, and don't have active everyday enh shamans or feral druids, just a few rogues and myself, and 1-2 hunters. Would it be worth speccing 33/28, or should I stay as 17/44? Perhaps I should spec 31/30 when I get CE? |
Total raid dps: 16018
Psysical dps in raid: 9051 (3 hunters, 2 rogues, 1 fury, 1 prot in dps gear, 1 prot tank, 2 ferals)
If Deep wounds have 100% uptime, that means the BF equals 362 dps. In my experience, Deep Wounds should have over 90% uptime.
Just check your WWS logs for psys damage and calculate the effect of BF. If it's greater than the dps difference between your specs, you spec 33/28
Last edited by Mia : Yesterday at 1:16 PM. Reason: Clarified a sentence
Meta gem question
Hi, I've been searching for a topic where meta gems for warriors were discussed, but so far I havent had any luck, therefore I decided to post my question here;
- What meta gem is best for PvE, 12agi 3% increased crit dmg, or the 24ap and minor run speed one, for a warrior raiding MH/BT using the S3 helm?
Thanks in advance, Zonekiller.
- What meta gem is best for PvE, 12agi 3% increased crit dmg, or the 24ap and minor run speed one, for a warrior raiding MH/BT using the S3 helm?
Thanks in advance, Zonekiller.
The [Relentless Earthstorm Diamond] is by far the best option.
http://static.mmo-champion.com/mmoc/...blacksmith.jpg
Absolutely amazing. These beat out Tier 6, Grips of Silent Justice(If you can afford to lose some armor pen).
The Future of the DPS Warrior seems bright.
Absolutely amazing. These beat out Tier 6, Grips of Silent Justice(If you can afford to lose some armor pen).
The Future of the DPS Warrior seems bright.
Edited onundefined
T6 belt and bracers are nice alternatives to [Red Belt of Battle] and [Bracers of Eradication], if you don't mind trading off some +hit, and make the 2 and 4 set bonuses easier to get...mmm
Last edited by gemmanite : Today at 1:18 AM.
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Originally Posted by gemmanite
T6 belt and bracers are nice alternatives to Red Belt of Battle and Bracers of Eradication and make the 2 and 4 set bonuses easier to get...mmm
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Actually the Leatherworking gloves are quite ridiculous, and BoE.
http://static.mmo-champion.com/mmoc/...herworking.jpg
Going from Grips to those you gain 2.39% Crit, 10AP. you lose 21 Armor pen and 15 hit(.94% Hit).
Pretty nice.
http://static.mmo-champion.com/mmoc/...herworking.jpg
Going from Grips to those you gain 2.39% Crit, 10AP. you lose 21 Armor pen and 15 hit(.94% Hit).
Pretty nice.
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Originally Posted by Emeraude
http://static.mmo-champion.com/mmoc/...blacksmith.jpg
Absolutely amazing. These beat out Tier 6, Grips of Silent Justice(If you can afford to lose some armor pen). |
Edited onundefined
Done some theorycrafting with the new items in the Spreadsheet:
Hard Khorium Breastplate, best breastplate ever. Hard Khorium Gloves are also very nice, but clearly not as nice as the Leatherworking ones.
Bracers + Belt from T6 are very nice upgrades (both 35+ DPS over RBOB / Bracers of Eradication). The boots aren't so good though, even worse than Dreadboots.
edited: misread.
to Graul: according to spreadsheet the Khorium Gloves are clearly better.
Hard Khorium Breastplate, best breastplate ever. Hard Khorium Gloves are also very nice, but clearly not as nice as the Leatherworking ones.
Bracers + Belt from T6 are very nice upgrades (both 35+ DPS over RBOB / Bracers of Eradication). The boots aren't so good though, even worse than Dreadboots.
edited: misread.
to Graul: according to spreadsheet the Khorium Gloves are clearly better.
Last edited by Kaan : Today at 3:39 AM.
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Originally Posted by Graul
They look like a craftable upgraded [Pillager's Gauntlets]. Is 8 str and 2.2% haste really an upgrade over 175 Arp? Both gloves seem to be a wash unless you are using a 2h and are already at the Arp "cap". And I don't understand why so many items have haste on them. It was a moderately questionable stat prior to the nerf, and almost certainly not worth it after except maybe a supplemental piece here or there if again you are using a 2h. So far, the only item I can see that is a "clear" upgrade would be the new bracers. But then that's to be expected since the old came from a T5 dungeon.
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I'm suprised that the plate chestpiece is pretty much being ignored though. It looks like the new best-in-slot plate chestpiece. Even if you desperately needed the hit on it, if you put 3 +10 hit gems in it, then compared it to the [Heartshatter Breastplate]
You trade off:
-2 Strength
+10 Stamina
-3 Crit Rating
+280 Armor Pen
Which seems like a decent upgrade. Same goes for [Onslaught Breastplate].
+8 Strength
+0.82% crit (~18 crit rating)
+1 stam
-16 hit
+154 Armor Pen
You're also way more likely to get the crafted BP's socket bonus of +4 crit rating since all the sockets are red.
Speaking of haste, did anyone see the new tanking chest piece off of a vendor? http://www.worldofraids.com/2008/ptr/24/plate.jpg 2nd column, bottom item. What is up with 40 haste on that? I hope it's a typo. They just gave us expertise, now they're giving us haste to increase parry-gibbing ourselves again
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Originally Posted by Graul
They look like a craftable upgraded [Pillager's Gauntlets]. Is 8 str and 2.2% haste really an upgrade over 175 Arp? Both gloves seem to be a wash unless you are using a 2h and are already at the Arp "cap". And I don't understand why so many items have haste on them. It was a moderately questionable stat prior to the nerf, and almost certainly not worth it after except maybe a supplemental piece here or there if again you are using a 2h. So far, the only item I can see that is a "clear" upgrade would be the new bracers. But then that's to be expected since the old came from a T5 dungeon.
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Edited onPatch 2.3.3
I'm relatively new to these forums, and a brand new poster, but I was curious as to the itemization of Sunwell gear concerning 33/28 warriors. I was glancing over the equipment on MMO-Champion and saw that a majority of it had haste rating, now when I think of haste rating the first thing that popped into my mind was the faster my weapon, the larger percentage of my weapon swing I'd be cutting off by using slam. Basically, what I thought was the faster my swing the more worthless slam became.
Although that may in fact be the case, I also remember reading posts by warriors who use swords (I have a Cat's Edge as well) that wouldn't even use slam in their rotation, but instead would spamstring between MS and WW cooldowns. After comparing gear (My math may be a little off because it's quite early and I've been up all night) I found that I would gain 88 AP, .75 crit, 14.2% passive haste, along with a 45 hit rating LOSS (that does drop me under the cap, but with a Draeni and 20 hit food I'm still capped) as well as 467 ARP loss.
Keeping in mind, the warriors who were using these rotations with hamstring were putting up similar numbers to those who use slam in WWS (I don't have them off hand, unfortunately) otherwise I would not have considered this a viable option in the first place.
On the flip side, the other setup would yield roughly: 148 AP gain, 462 ARP, and 26 haste, with a loss of 19 hit rating and roughly .5% crit. Using ideally the same weapon (Apolyon, the Soul-render) I'd be sitting at a passive 1256 ARP with this setup. (This is using the leather gear as well). Considering a 6200 armor boss, this sits me 100 ARP~ below the "cap".
All of these stats are direct comparisons from the gear I'm wearing currently, and I have an Armory link to it, but it's slow as usual and it has me in my pvp gear at the moment, but incase it updates: The World of Warcraft Armory
My first thought would be to go for the haste gear, simply because I think it would make my life a lot easier (slamming can be really painful at times dependant on the fight, and heroism/drums + moving + slam = sadface). But I'd like the input of some others who could perhaps give me their opinion on this, and I'm aware there are spreadsheets for questions like this as well, but I don't have access to Excel so I really can't use that option.
Thanks for the feedback in advance, and feel free to nitpick and criticize as I may have over-looked something.
Although that may in fact be the case, I also remember reading posts by warriors who use swords (I have a Cat's Edge as well) that wouldn't even use slam in their rotation, but instead would spamstring between MS and WW cooldowns. After comparing gear (My math may be a little off because it's quite early and I've been up all night) I found that I would gain 88 AP, .75 crit, 14.2% passive haste, along with a 45 hit rating LOSS (that does drop me under the cap, but with a Draeni and 20 hit food I'm still capped) as well as 467 ARP loss.
Keeping in mind, the warriors who were using these rotations with hamstring were putting up similar numbers to those who use slam in WWS (I don't have them off hand, unfortunately) otherwise I would not have considered this a viable option in the first place.
On the flip side, the other setup would yield roughly: 148 AP gain, 462 ARP, and 26 haste, with a loss of 19 hit rating and roughly .5% crit. Using ideally the same weapon (Apolyon, the Soul-render) I'd be sitting at a passive 1256 ARP with this setup. (This is using the leather gear as well). Considering a 6200 armor boss, this sits me 100 ARP~ below the "cap".
All of these stats are direct comparisons from the gear I'm wearing currently, and I have an Armory link to it, but it's slow as usual and it has me in my pvp gear at the moment, but incase it updates: The World of Warcraft Armory
My first thought would be to go for the haste gear, simply because I think it would make my life a lot easier (slamming can be really painful at times dependant on the fight, and heroism/drums + moving + slam = sadface). But I'd like the input of some others who could perhaps give me their opinion on this, and I'm aware there are spreadsheets for questions like this as well, but I don't have access to Excel so I really can't use that option.
Thanks for the feedback in advance, and feel free to nitpick and criticize as I may have over-looked something.
Last edited by Draskyl : 02/11/08 at 10:17 AM.
I'm still struggling to understand the mechanics behind the 'no slam' rotation as well, and getting it to outdo the 'white-slam-instant' rotation. Haste favors the 'no slam' rotation so I'm guessing Bloodlust+Haste potion+DST(which I lack) has something to do with it?
For anyone who missed it:
Tier6:
http://www.worldofraids.com/2008/ptr.../onslaught.jpg
Token:
http://www.worldofraids.com/2008/ptr/24/plate.jpg
Blacksmithing:
http://static.mmo-champion.com/mmoc/...blacksmith.jpg
And to think I was starting to regret picking up Blacksmithing solely for the Stunherald! That breastplate and gloves are all kinds of awesome compared to the T6 ones.
For anyone who missed it:
Tier6:
http://www.worldofraids.com/2008/ptr.../onslaught.jpg
Token:
http://www.worldofraids.com/2008/ptr/24/plate.jpg
Blacksmithing:
http://static.mmo-champion.com/mmoc/...blacksmith.jpg
And to think I was starting to regret picking up Blacksmithing solely for the Stunherald! That breastplate and gloves are all kinds of awesome compared to the T6 ones.
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Originally Posted by Graul
They look like a craftable upgraded [Pillager's Gauntlets]. Is 8 str and 2.2% haste really an upgrade over 175 Arp? Both gloves seem to be a wash unless you are using a 2h and are already at the Arp "cap". And I don't understand why so many items have haste on them. It was a moderately questionable stat prior to the nerf, and almost certainly not worth it after except maybe a supplemental piece here or there if again you are using a 2h. So far, the only item I can see that is a "clear" upgrade would be the new bracers. But then that's to be expected since the old came from a T5 dungeon.
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Haste is decent, but i think they're throwing too much of it on this new sunwell gear. Too much seems like it could hurt slam rotations, and I still feel crit and ap is better for fury. I really wish we could get some expertise rating on some of this gear though. Expertise is probably the most valuable stat for us and the majority of us are severely lacking it.
I dont see how haste would hurt slam rotations unless you are
- 2h fury with 5/5 flurry
AND
- have over 200 haste
or you are horrible lagged (in which case you shouldnt be using slam anyway - spec DW fury and let someone with better connection do 2h dps)
- 2h fury with 5/5 flurry
AND
- have over 200 haste
or you are horrible lagged (in which case you shouldnt be using slam anyway - spec DW fury and let someone with better connection do 2h dps)
I didn't mean it would totally break them, just that it can make for tighter timings. My main point is that we should get some expertise rating thrown on our gear. It's an amazing stat that helps with both white attacks and specials. A little bit of the stuff goes a long way.
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Originally Posted by snarl
Tier6:
http://www.worldofraids.com/2008/ptr.../onslaught.jpg Token: http://www.worldofraids.com/2008/ptr/24/plate.jpg Blacksmithing: http://static.mmo-champion.com/mmoc/...blacksmith.jpg And to think I was starting to regret picking up Blacksmithing solely for the Stunherald! That breastplate and gloves are all kinds of awesome compared to the T6 ones. |
The crafted option looks considerably nicer stats-wise than the token chest to me.
I guess my Alchemy days are over.
Engineering t2 goggle plans to drop in SW. What I'd be curious to learn is whether or not Blacksmithing t4 plans or something similar is planned. Dragonpwnage 105dps? Smithing BP is indeed very very solid.
I guess PTR exposure will reveal more and more- it's always interesting to see what the next line of gearing will be.
I guess PTR exposure will reveal more and more- it's always interesting to see what the next line of gearing will be.
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Originally Posted by Zeff
I didn't mean it would totally break them, just that it can make for tighter timings. My main point is that we should get some expertise rating thrown on our gear. It's an amazing stat that helps with both white attacks and specials. A little bit of the stuff goes a long way.
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Exactly of what you speak. Absolutely ideal for melee.
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Originally Posted by Shha
Imo Haste is the best stat out there after you surpass T6 level. The reason it was "Moderately questionable" etc is because the ITEMS that had haste were bad. there was never crit nor sockets on haste gear, and it was overloaded with stamina. With properly itemized loot, haste is very very high on my priority list. Its also well supported by the spreadsheets, showing haste as best stat for me to stack.
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I dont know what sheet told you haste was the best stat to stack. I think haste was broken on one for a bit, might want to double check on that. Its not bad, its just that the item budget for it could be used for much better things. Compared to say rogues, who hit more which gains more energy which does more specials, warrior specials are on cooldowns. Once you have the rage to keep BT/WW on cooldown, and anyone getting the new gear should, you dump it into HS. Haste just has no effect on ~40% of your damage, depending on gear. Strength and Crit affect everything.
I am disappointed in the lack of ArP. A couple pieces have a lot, and the rest have haste. I thought ArP was going to be our big thing and rogues would go more for haste, but the gear is the opposite.
I am disappointed in the lack of ArP. A couple pieces have a lot, and the rest have haste. I thought ArP was going to be our big thing and rogues would go more for haste, but the gear is the opposite.
Haste brings more heroic strikes / mainhand-hits and offhand hits, so it is a lot better than hit, which basically means your off-hand will miss less, when you make right use of heroic strike.
For slam, swing/HS is less than 40% of our damage, and depending on how long your cycle is, also has the slam cast time cut into that as well. Where haste does help out is in the item budget. If an item already has good values of crit, str and armor penetration, adding more to any of those would give a smaller damage boost than using the same budget on haste rating. It's just making it that much more complicated that you'll have to calculate your SEP every time you acquire a new item and plug it into something like ItemValue so you can compare item to item what's going to work for you.
The other neat thing is that if you get your swing speed ever so slightly below 2.5, then you could mash buttons constantly and have a perfect rotation.
The other neat thing is that if you get your swing speed ever so slightly below 2.5, then you could mash buttons constantly and have a perfect rotation.
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Originally Posted by Kaan
Haste brings more heroic strikes / mainhand-hits and offhand hits, so it is a lot better than hit, which basically means your off-hand will miss less, when you make right use of heroic strike.
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| The other neat thing is that if you get your swing speed ever so slightly below 2.5, then you could mash buttons constantly and have a perfect rotation. |
Hm, the question then is, why is the spreadsheet valueing haste so high? I've basically written down, what the sheet was always keeping telling me the last weeks.
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Originally Posted by Graul
Are you counting Flurry and (if you have one) a DST? With something like a CE, it's already quite easy to reach ridiculously fast speeds without a single piece of haste gear.
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Only a 3.8 weapon won't go below 2.5s with bloodlust.
There's always a huge debate going on if Fury or MS spec is better for DPS. I was wondering if anyone ever tried a def spec to do DPS. Being one of the MTs in our guild I am bound 99% of the time to a def spec. However, recently I had the opportunity to try out a 17/3/41 spec for better aggro build-up. When we got to Teron Gorefiend I was even able to drive some decent DPS with this spec.
Spec:
World of Warcraft Europe -> Game Guide -> Charakter -> Talente -> Krieger
WWS:
Wow Web Stats
Equip during Teron fight:
chardev.org - A World of Warcraft character planner v.2.beta
I was very much focusing on STR on my equip because of the 10% talent spec. It's not the greatest equip but it is decent and with the numbers from WWS I was wondering if any warrior with some better equip would be interested to try out the spec a little more. For me the benefits of this spec were pretty clear from the beginning. With dual-wield you are able to gain good rage generation to be independent and not relient on a shaman with a WF totem. During that fight I only had a feral druid as a supporter. I made a macro for the following rotation: 6xDevestate, 1xWhirlwind. Most of the DPS comes actually from the WW while the Devestate provides steady DPS. While doing this rotation without a shaman it is possible to gradually gain rage which means HS can be used during the rotation to spike up the DPS. With a shaman it would be possible to add HS more often to increase DPS by quite a bit.
The idea behind this spec/rotation is quite simple, while BT and MS have a 6 second cooldown Devestate only has a GC. It is possible to compensate the damage of BT/MS by using Devestate every GC. It is also extremly important not to burn to much rage through HS so to not to loose a GC for Devestate. The other thing is that most tanks use fast tanking weapons and most tanking weapons are actually fast weapons. Using a slow weapon with Devestate can increase the DPS substantially. Right now the S3 Main-Hand or the Supremus Mace would be the best weapon for such a spec.
All in all I think this is a viable spec considering it is possible to tank decently with this setup and with some fine tweaking to do good DPS. I won't be able to try out the spec too often so it would be great if an Off-Tank had some time to maybe play around with it and give some feedback on it.
The other thing that I wanted to ask is. Would it be viable to use Slam in a 17/44/0 spec while using the LD50 swing timer mod and 2 weapons with almost the same weapon speed doing essentially 2 white swings followed by a slam and so on? Pretty much a MS slam rotation with 2 weapons.
Spec:
World of Warcraft Europe -> Game Guide -> Charakter -> Talente -> Krieger
WWS:
Wow Web Stats
Equip during Teron fight:
chardev.org - A World of Warcraft character planner v.2.beta
I was very much focusing on STR on my equip because of the 10% talent spec. It's not the greatest equip but it is decent and with the numbers from WWS I was wondering if any warrior with some better equip would be interested to try out the spec a little more. For me the benefits of this spec were pretty clear from the beginning. With dual-wield you are able to gain good rage generation to be independent and not relient on a shaman with a WF totem. During that fight I only had a feral druid as a supporter. I made a macro for the following rotation: 6xDevestate, 1xWhirlwind. Most of the DPS comes actually from the WW while the Devestate provides steady DPS. While doing this rotation without a shaman it is possible to gradually gain rage which means HS can be used during the rotation to spike up the DPS. With a shaman it would be possible to add HS more often to increase DPS by quite a bit.
The idea behind this spec/rotation is quite simple, while BT and MS have a 6 second cooldown Devestate only has a GC. It is possible to compensate the damage of BT/MS by using Devestate every GC. It is also extremly important not to burn to much rage through HS so to not to loose a GC for Devestate. The other thing is that most tanks use fast tanking weapons and most tanking weapons are actually fast weapons. Using a slow weapon with Devestate can increase the DPS substantially. Right now the S3 Main-Hand or the Supremus Mace would be the best weapon for such a spec.
All in all I think this is a viable spec considering it is possible to tank decently with this setup and with some fine tweaking to do good DPS. I won't be able to try out the spec too often so it would be great if an Off-Tank had some time to maybe play around with it and give some feedback on it.
The other thing that I wanted to ask is. Would it be viable to use Slam in a 17/44/0 spec while using the LD50 swing timer mod and 2 weapons with almost the same weapon speed doing essentially 2 white swings followed by a slam and so on? Pretty much a MS slam rotation with 2 weapons.
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
| Any Slam Warrior using DST should be shot, or forced to spec to Fury. |
Wow Web Stats
This wasn't my typical spec and before a handful of upgrades. I don't need how Flurry and other random haste procs can throw off a rotation to be explained, but it's not really as black and white as you make it out to be.
Last edited by Graul : 02/11/08 at 3:31 AM.
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Originally Posted by Graul
Why exactly is that?
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Originally Posted by Grayson Carlyle
I was thinking more along the lines of taking it away from someone who could make more use of it.
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Haste doesn't affect the slam cast, right?
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Originally Posted by Shha
I dont see how haste would hurt slam rotations unless you are
- 2h fury with 5/5 flurry AND - have over 200 haste or you are horrible lagged (in which case you shouldnt be using slam anyway - spec DW fury and let someone with better connection do 2h dps) |
No one in the game has "perfect" ping and everyone is pretty much going to be chopping off more of their swing than they would want to be no matter how quick you are. The way I consider haste towards a slam build is if you have a 3.5 swing speed and are taking .5 off of that per white attack to get your slam in, you're taking 14.28% of your swing off of every rotation that includes slamming, which in a perfect scenario you'll be slamming after every white attack.
Now you consider using a 2.5 speed weapon, which some believe is the ideal speed for just being able to have globals govern your rotation, which I can't argue with because it would be a lot easier to do it that way, but that .5 turns into 25% of your swing instead of 14%.. Basically you're losing 11% MORE of your white swings using a faster weapon and continuing to slam rotate in the same manner, my logic on this of course could very well be flawed, so if someone could disprove me it would help me figure out which way I'd like to go.
Considering that those stats would be just sitting around, and don't include heroism, drums of battle (which our dps group uses constantly) and at that point slamming would just be utterly useless, so that's why I am considering going the way of spamstring and seeing the actual dps it can put out.
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Originally Posted by Zalein
Haste doesn't affect the slam cast, right?
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Originally Posted by Draskyl
Now you consider using a 2.5 speed weapon, which some believe is the ideal speed for just being able to have globals govern your rotation, which I can't argue with because it would be a lot easier to do it that way, but that .5 turns into 25% of your swing instead of 14%.. Basically you're losing 11% MORE of your white swings using a faster weapon and continuing to slam rotate in the same manner, my logic on this of course could very well be flawed, so if someone could disprove me it would help me figure out which way I'd like to go.
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Sub 2.5s, you could alter your rotation to be e.g. swing/slam, MS, swing, swing/slam, WW, swing, swing/slam. This would require more of a "by-the-feel" reaction than to try to program it because you wouldn't want to keep MS or WW off of cooldown for very long, but would be more DPS than cutting out slam entirely. Weaving slams would no longer be your priority however; keeping MS and WW on cooldown would be, and you'd weave a slam in whenever feasible.
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
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Originally Posted by Graul
That would be true if you aren't having to give up large amounts of one stat to get it. It's no different than giving up 3-5% hit and 5% crit to reach high levels of ArP. In the end, regardless of what spreadsheets say, the DPS ends up being similar whichever route you decide to go. At least according to people that have access to full sets of either option. Haste is barely better than hit, which is the lowest DPS stat for a well geared Warrior. If they had never nerfed haste, it would absolutely be a good stat now, especially with how high the ratings are on some of the pieces, but a lot of this gear seems custom made for 2h builds, and only as a marginal upgrade or sidegrade to BT gear. The breastplate and bracer are great, everything else looks bland on paper. Even the T6 belt looks like it has poorly distributed stats compared to the RBoB for an upgrade. It basically allows you to trade in the same belt you already have for a *very marginal* upgrade that nets you 1/2 of the set bonus. Couple that with the bracer and you do see a slight boost, but on it's own it's not all that spectacular.
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a) "Haste affects 60% of your damage". Im not sure, for me white + heroic is over 70% right now. Id like to see the hard data for other warriors, but on low armor bosses in MH/BT its like 40% of my damage is heroic strikes, with white being 2nd then BT at below 15% etc. Lets compare it thought. 16 haste rating gives 1% boost to 70% of my damage.
So 0.7% dmg increase/16 rating = 0.043% increase per rating
Than:
* 1% crit (22 rating), increases my white damage by around 0.6%(since i already have around 50% crit in raids and 25% is glancings, and increases yellow damage by 0.75% (50% crit/impale). So 0.6%x0.3+0.75%*0.7 =0.705% dmg increase. 0.705%/22 = 0,032% increase per rating. Crit is valued at 0.75% of haste for me.
I just made this one comparison to show possible reasons why haste goes that high up - because you have NO haste atm. Its just a situation where crit/hit/ap are sort of on "diminishing returns" because they are so high. While haste is a brand new stat to stack on.
According to dps spreadsheets if crit = 100SEP then
STR =94
AGI = 75
HASTE = 140 !!
-7 AC = 140 !!
HIT = 58
EXPERTISE = 112
Now the trick is - im already at 1330 ArP with my dual wield. While i will drop SOME going to sunwell loot, its still awfully close to cap. So while its a good stat too and ill be seeking it, one needs to remain very careful.
Expertise on other hand is good, but you need to take one thing into account (and why its lower then haste). While equal amount of expertise rating will reduce dodge by 1% and increase haste by 1% - it still puts haste ahead. Most people will say "But haste doesnt affect 100% of my dmg, expertise does". True but consider: (assume you have ONE % chance to be dodged)
- Expertise will convert that one dodge out of 100 attacks into a HIT.
- Haste will make you attack 101 times, addint another SWING which can miss/crit/glance etc (and with 50% crit
decent hit etc it just makes the "expected swing damage" higher then the "hit damage" by a lot.
Thus while haste works with swings only it adds more to them then hit/expertise.
Last edited by Shha : 02/11/08 at 9:27 AM.
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
I'm relatively new to these forums, and a brand new poster, but I was curious as to the itemization of Sunwell gear concerning 33/28 warriors. I was glancing over the equipment on MMO-Champion and saw that a majority of it had haste rating, now when I think of haste rating the first thing that popped into my mind was the faster my weapon, the larger percentage of my weapon swing I'd be cutting off by using slam. Basically, what I thought was the faster my swing the more worthless slam became.
Although that may in fact be the case, I also remember reading posts by warriors who use swords (I have a Cat's Edge as well) that wouldn't even use slam in their rotation, but instead would spamstring between MS and WW cooldowns. After comparing gear (My math may be a little off because it's quite early and I've been up all night) I found that I would gain 88 AP, .75 crit, 14.2% passive haste, along with a 45 hit rating LOSS (that does drop me under the cap, but with a Draeni and 20 hit food I'm still capped) as well as 467 ARP loss.
Keeping in mind, the warriors who were using these rotations with hamstring were putting up similar numbers to those who use slam in WWS (I don't have them off hand, unfortunately) otherwise I would not have considered this a viable option in the first place.
On the flip side, the other setup would yield roughly: 148 AP gain, 462 ARP, and 26 haste, with a loss of 19 hit rating and roughly .5% crit. Using ideally the same weapon (Apolyon, the Soul-render) I'd be sitting at a passive 1256 ARP with this setup. (This is using the leather gear as well). Considering a 6200 armor boss, this sits me 100 ARP~ below the "cap".
All of these stats are direct comparisons from the gear I'm wearing currently, and I have an Armory link to it, but it's slow as usual and it has me in my pvp gear at the moment, but incase it updates: The World of Warcraft Armory
My first thought would be to go for the haste gear, simply because I think it would make my life a lot easier (slamming can be really painful at times dependant on the fight, and heroism/drums + moving + slam = sadface). But I'd like the input of some others who could perhaps give me their opinion on this, and I'm aware there are spreadsheets for questions like this as well, but I don't have access to Excel so I really can't use that option.
Thanks for the feedback in advance, and feel free to nitpick and criticize as I may have over-looked something.
Although that may in fact be the case, I also remember reading posts by warriors who use swords (I have a Cat's Edge as well) that wouldn't even use slam in their rotation, but instead would spamstring between MS and WW cooldowns. After comparing gear (My math may be a little off because it's quite early and I've been up all night) I found that I would gain 88 AP, .75 crit, 14.2% passive haste, along with a 45 hit rating LOSS (that does drop me under the cap, but with a Draeni and 20 hit food I'm still capped) as well as 467 ARP loss.
Keeping in mind, the warriors who were using these rotations with hamstring were putting up similar numbers to those who use slam in WWS (I don't have them off hand, unfortunately) otherwise I would not have considered this a viable option in the first place.
On the flip side, the other setup would yield roughly: 148 AP gain, 462 ARP, and 26 haste, with a loss of 19 hit rating and roughly .5% crit. Using ideally the same weapon (Apolyon, the Soul-render) I'd be sitting at a passive 1256 ARP with this setup. (This is using the leather gear as well). Considering a 6200 armor boss, this sits me 100 ARP~ below the "cap".
All of these stats are direct comparisons from the gear I'm wearing currently, and I have an Armory link to it, but it's slow as usual and it has me in my pvp gear at the moment, but incase it updates: The World of Warcraft Armory
My first thought would be to go for the haste gear, simply because I think it would make my life a lot easier (slamming can be really painful at times dependant on the fight, and heroism/drums + moving + slam = sadface). But I'd like the input of some others who could perhaps give me their opinion on this, and I'm aware there are spreadsheets for questions like this as well, but I don't have access to Excel so I really can't use that option.
Thanks for the feedback in advance, and feel free to nitpick and criticize as I may have over-looked something.
Last edited by Draskyl : 02/11/08 at 10:17 AM.
I'm still struggling to understand the mechanics behind the 'no slam' rotation as well, and getting it to outdo the 'white-slam-instant' rotation. Haste favors the 'no slam' rotation so I'm guessing Bloodlust+Haste potion+DST(which I lack) has something to do with it?
For anyone who missed it:
Tier6:
http://www.worldofraids.com/2008/ptr.../onslaught.jpg
Token:
http://www.worldofraids.com/2008/ptr/24/plate.jpg
Blacksmithing:
http://static.mmo-champion.com/mmoc/...blacksmith.jpg
And to think I was starting to regret picking up Blacksmithing solely for the Stunherald! That breastplate and gloves are all kinds of awesome compared to the T6 ones.
For anyone who missed it:
Tier6:
http://www.worldofraids.com/2008/ptr.../onslaught.jpg
Token:
http://www.worldofraids.com/2008/ptr/24/plate.jpg
Blacksmithing:
http://static.mmo-champion.com/mmoc/...blacksmith.jpg
And to think I was starting to regret picking up Blacksmithing solely for the Stunherald! That breastplate and gloves are all kinds of awesome compared to the T6 ones.
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Originally Posted by Graul
They look like a craftable upgraded [Pillager's Gauntlets]. Is 8 str and 2.2% haste really an upgrade over 175 Arp? Both gloves seem to be a wash unless you are using a 2h and are already at the Arp "cap". And I don't understand why so many items have haste on them. It was a moderately questionable stat prior to the nerf, and almost certainly not worth it after except maybe a supplemental piece here or there if again you are using a 2h. So far, the only item I can see that is a "clear" upgrade would be the new bracers. But then that's to be expected since the old came from a T5 dungeon.
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Haste is decent, but i think they're throwing too much of it on this new sunwell gear. Too much seems like it could hurt slam rotations, and I still feel crit and ap is better for fury. I really wish we could get some expertise rating on some of this gear though. Expertise is probably the most valuable stat for us and the majority of us are severely lacking it.
I dont see how haste would hurt slam rotations unless you are
- 2h fury with 5/5 flurry
AND
- have over 200 haste
or you are horrible lagged (in which case you shouldnt be using slam anyway - spec DW fury and let someone with better connection do 2h dps)
- 2h fury with 5/5 flurry
AND
- have over 200 haste
or you are horrible lagged (in which case you shouldnt be using slam anyway - spec DW fury and let someone with better connection do 2h dps)
I didn't mean it would totally break them, just that it can make for tighter timings. My main point is that we should get some expertise rating thrown on our gear. It's an amazing stat that helps with both white attacks and specials. A little bit of the stuff goes a long way.
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Originally Posted by snarl
Tier6:
http://www.worldofraids.com/2008/ptr.../onslaught.jpg Token: http://www.worldofraids.com/2008/ptr/24/plate.jpg Blacksmithing: http://static.mmo-champion.com/mmoc/...blacksmith.jpg And to think I was starting to regret picking up Blacksmithing solely for the Stunherald! That breastplate and gloves are all kinds of awesome compared to the T6 ones. |
The crafted option looks considerably nicer stats-wise than the token chest to me.
I guess my Alchemy days are over.
Engineering t2 goggle plans to drop in SW. What I'd be curious to learn is whether or not Blacksmithing t4 plans or something similar is planned. Dragonpwnage 105dps? Smithing BP is indeed very very solid.
I guess PTR exposure will reveal more and more- it's always interesting to see what the next line of gearing will be.
I guess PTR exposure will reveal more and more- it's always interesting to see what the next line of gearing will be.
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Originally Posted by Zeff
I didn't mean it would totally break them, just that it can make for tighter timings. My main point is that we should get some expertise rating thrown on our gear. It's an amazing stat that helps with both white attacks and specials. A little bit of the stuff goes a long way.
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Exactly of what you speak. Absolutely ideal for melee.
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Originally Posted by Shha
Imo Haste is the best stat out there after you surpass T6 level. The reason it was "Moderately questionable" etc is because the ITEMS that had haste were bad. there was never crit nor sockets on haste gear, and it was overloaded with stamina. With properly itemized loot, haste is very very high on my priority list. Its also well supported by the spreadsheets, showing haste as best stat for me to stack.
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I dont know what sheet told you haste was the best stat to stack. I think haste was broken on one for a bit, might want to double check on that. Its not bad, its just that the item budget for it could be used for much better things. Compared to say rogues, who hit more which gains more energy which does more specials, warrior specials are on cooldowns. Once you have the rage to keep BT/WW on cooldown, and anyone getting the new gear should, you dump it into HS. Haste just has no effect on ~40% of your damage, depending on gear. Strength and Crit affect everything.
I am disappointed in the lack of ArP. A couple pieces have a lot, and the rest have haste. I thought ArP was going to be our big thing and rogues would go more for haste, but the gear is the opposite.
I am disappointed in the lack of ArP. A couple pieces have a lot, and the rest have haste. I thought ArP was going to be our big thing and rogues would go more for haste, but the gear is the opposite.
Haste brings more heroic strikes / mainhand-hits and offhand hits, so it is a lot better than hit, which basically means your off-hand will miss less, when you make right use of heroic strike.
For slam, swing/HS is less than 40% of our damage, and depending on how long your cycle is, also has the slam cast time cut into that as well. Where haste does help out is in the item budget. If an item already has good values of crit, str and armor penetration, adding more to any of those would give a smaller damage boost than using the same budget on haste rating. It's just making it that much more complicated that you'll have to calculate your SEP every time you acquire a new item and plug it into something like ItemValue so you can compare item to item what's going to work for you.
The other neat thing is that if you get your swing speed ever so slightly below 2.5, then you could mash buttons constantly and have a perfect rotation.
The other neat thing is that if you get your swing speed ever so slightly below 2.5, then you could mash buttons constantly and have a perfect rotation.
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Originally Posted by Kaan
Haste brings more heroic strikes / mainhand-hits and offhand hits, so it is a lot better than hit, which basically means your off-hand will miss less, when you make right use of heroic strike.
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| The other neat thing is that if you get your swing speed ever so slightly below 2.5, then you could mash buttons constantly and have a perfect rotation. |
Hm, the question then is, why is the spreadsheet valueing haste so high? I've basically written down, what the sheet was always keeping telling me the last weeks.
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Originally Posted by Graul
Are you counting Flurry and (if you have one) a DST? With something like a CE, it's already quite easy to reach ridiculously fast speeds without a single piece of haste gear.
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Only a 3.8 weapon won't go below 2.5s with bloodlust.
There's always a huge debate going on if Fury or MS spec is better for DPS. I was wondering if anyone ever tried a def spec to do DPS. Being one of the MTs in our guild I am bound 99% of the time to a def spec. However, recently I had the opportunity to try out a 17/3/41 spec for better aggro build-up. When we got to Teron Gorefiend I was even able to drive some decent DPS with this spec.
Spec:
World of Warcraft Europe -> Game Guide -> Charakter -> Talente -> Krieger
WWS:
Wow Web Stats
Equip during Teron fight:
chardev.org - A World of Warcraft character planner v.2.beta
I was very much focusing on STR on my equip because of the 10% talent spec. It's not the greatest equip but it is decent and with the numbers from WWS I was wondering if any warrior with some better equip would be interested to try out the spec a little more. For me the benefits of this spec were pretty clear from the beginning. With dual-wield you are able to gain good rage generation to be independent and not relient on a shaman with a WF totem. During that fight I only had a feral druid as a supporter. I made a macro for the following rotation: 6xDevestate, 1xWhirlwind. Most of the DPS comes actually from the WW while the Devestate provides steady DPS. While doing this rotation without a shaman it is possible to gradually gain rage which means HS can be used during the rotation to spike up the DPS. With a shaman it would be possible to add HS more often to increase DPS by quite a bit.
The idea behind this spec/rotation is quite simple, while BT and MS have a 6 second cooldown Devestate only has a GC. It is possible to compensate the damage of BT/MS by using Devestate every GC. It is also extremly important not to burn to much rage through HS so to not to loose a GC for Devestate. The other thing is that most tanks use fast tanking weapons and most tanking weapons are actually fast weapons. Using a slow weapon with Devestate can increase the DPS substantially. Right now the S3 Main-Hand or the Supremus Mace would be the best weapon for such a spec.
All in all I think this is a viable spec considering it is possible to tank decently with this setup and with some fine tweaking to do good DPS. I won't be able to try out the spec too often so it would be great if an Off-Tank had some time to maybe play around with it and give some feedback on it.
The other thing that I wanted to ask is. Would it be viable to use Slam in a 17/44/0 spec while using the LD50 swing timer mod and 2 weapons with almost the same weapon speed doing essentially 2 white swings followed by a slam and so on? Pretty much a MS slam rotation with 2 weapons.
Spec:
World of Warcraft Europe -> Game Guide -> Charakter -> Talente -> Krieger
WWS:
Wow Web Stats
Equip during Teron fight:
chardev.org - A World of Warcraft character planner v.2.beta
I was very much focusing on STR on my equip because of the 10% talent spec. It's not the greatest equip but it is decent and with the numbers from WWS I was wondering if any warrior with some better equip would be interested to try out the spec a little more. For me the benefits of this spec were pretty clear from the beginning. With dual-wield you are able to gain good rage generation to be independent and not relient on a shaman with a WF totem. During that fight I only had a feral druid as a supporter. I made a macro for the following rotation: 6xDevestate, 1xWhirlwind. Most of the DPS comes actually from the WW while the Devestate provides steady DPS. While doing this rotation without a shaman it is possible to gradually gain rage which means HS can be used during the rotation to spike up the DPS. With a shaman it would be possible to add HS more often to increase DPS by quite a bit.
The idea behind this spec/rotation is quite simple, while BT and MS have a 6 second cooldown Devestate only has a GC. It is possible to compensate the damage of BT/MS by using Devestate every GC. It is also extremly important not to burn to much rage through HS so to not to loose a GC for Devestate. The other thing is that most tanks use fast tanking weapons and most tanking weapons are actually fast weapons. Using a slow weapon with Devestate can increase the DPS substantially. Right now the S3 Main-Hand or the Supremus Mace would be the best weapon for such a spec.
All in all I think this is a viable spec considering it is possible to tank decently with this setup and with some fine tweaking to do good DPS. I won't be able to try out the spec too often so it would be great if an Off-Tank had some time to maybe play around with it and give some feedback on it.
The other thing that I wanted to ask is. Would it be viable to use Slam in a 17/44/0 spec while using the LD50 swing timer mod and 2 weapons with almost the same weapon speed doing essentially 2 white swings followed by a slam and so on? Pretty much a MS slam rotation with 2 weapons.
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
| Any Slam Warrior using DST should be shot, or forced to spec to Fury. |
Wow Web Stats
This wasn't my typical spec and before a handful of upgrades. I don't need how Flurry and other random haste procs can throw off a rotation to be explained, but it's not really as black and white as you make it out to be.
Last edited by Graul : 02/11/08 at 3:31 AM.
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Originally Posted by Graul
Why exactly is that?
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Originally Posted by Grayson Carlyle
I was thinking more along the lines of taking it away from someone who could make more use of it.
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Haste doesn't affect the slam cast, right?
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Originally Posted by Shha
I dont see how haste would hurt slam rotations unless you are
- 2h fury with 5/5 flurry AND - have over 200 haste or you are horrible lagged (in which case you shouldnt be using slam anyway - spec DW fury and let someone with better connection do 2h dps) |
No one in the game has "perfect" ping and everyone is pretty much going to be chopping off more of their swing than they would want to be no matter how quick you are. The way I consider haste towards a slam build is if you have a 3.5 swing speed and are taking .5 off of that per white attack to get your slam in, you're taking 14.28% of your swing off of every rotation that includes slamming, which in a perfect scenario you'll be slamming after every white attack.
Now you consider using a 2.5 speed weapon, which some believe is the ideal speed for just being able to have globals govern your rotation, which I can't argue with because it would be a lot easier to do it that way, but that .5 turns into 25% of your swing instead of 14%.. Basically you're losing 11% MORE of your white swings using a faster weapon and continuing to slam rotate in the same manner, my logic on this of course could very well be flawed, so if someone could disprove me it would help me figure out which way I'd like to go.
Considering that those stats would be just sitting around, and don't include heroism, drums of battle (which our dps group uses constantly) and at that point slamming would just be utterly useless, so that's why I am considering going the way of spamstring and seeing the actual dps it can put out.
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Originally Posted by Zalein
Haste doesn't affect the slam cast, right?
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Originally Posted by Draskyl
Now you consider using a 2.5 speed weapon, which some believe is the ideal speed for just being able to have globals govern your rotation, which I can't argue with because it would be a lot easier to do it that way, but that .5 turns into 25% of your swing instead of 14%.. Basically you're losing 11% MORE of your white swings using a faster weapon and continuing to slam rotate in the same manner, my logic on this of course could very well be flawed, so if someone could disprove me it would help me figure out which way I'd like to go.
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Sub 2.5s, you could alter your rotation to be e.g. swing/slam, MS, swing, swing/slam, WW, swing, swing/slam. This would require more of a "by-the-feel" reaction than to try to program it because you wouldn't want to keep MS or WW off of cooldown for very long, but would be more DPS than cutting out slam entirely. Weaving slams would no longer be your priority however; keeping MS and WW on cooldown would be, and you'd weave a slam in whenever feasible.
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
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Originally Posted by Graul
That would be true if you aren't having to give up large amounts of one stat to get it. It's no different than giving up 3-5% hit and 5% crit to reach high levels of ArP. In the end, regardless of what spreadsheets say, the DPS ends up being similar whichever route you decide to go. At least according to people that have access to full sets of either option. Haste is barely better than hit, which is the lowest DPS stat for a well geared Warrior. If they had never nerfed haste, it would absolutely be a good stat now, especially with how high the ratings are on some of the pieces, but a lot of this gear seems custom made for 2h builds, and only as a marginal upgrade or sidegrade to BT gear. The breastplate and bracer are great, everything else looks bland on paper. Even the T6 belt looks like it has poorly distributed stats compared to the RBoB for an upgrade. It basically allows you to trade in the same belt you already have for a *very marginal* upgrade that nets you 1/2 of the set bonus. Couple that with the bracer and you do see a slight boost, but on it's own it's not all that spectacular.
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a) "Haste affects 60% of your damage". Im not sure, for me white + heroic is over 70% right now. Id like to see the hard data for other warriors, but on low armor bosses in MH/BT its like 40% of my damage is heroic strikes, with white being 2nd then BT at below 15% etc. Lets compare it thought. 16 haste rating gives 1% boost to 70% of my damage.
So 0.7% dmg increase/16 rating = 0.043% increase per rating
Than:
* 1% crit (22 rating), increases my white damage by around 0.6%(since i already have around 50% crit in raids and 25% is glancings, and increases yellow damage by 0.75% (50% crit/impale). So 0.6%x0.3+0.75%*0.7 =0.705% dmg increase. 0.705%/22 = 0,032% increase per rating. Crit is valued at 0.75% of haste for me.
I just made this one comparison to show possible reasons why haste goes that high up - because you have NO haste atm. Its just a situation where crit/hit/ap are sort of on "diminishing returns" because they are so high. While haste is a brand new stat to stack on.
According to dps spreadsheets if crit = 100SEP then
STR =94
AGI = 75
HASTE = 140 !!
-7 AC = 140 !!
HIT = 58
EXPERTISE = 112
Now the trick is - im already at 1330 ArP with my dual wield. While i will drop SOME going to sunwell loot, its still awfully close to cap. So while its a good stat too and ill be seeking it, one needs to remain very careful.
Expertise on other hand is good, but you need to take one thing into account (and why its lower then haste). While equal amount of expertise rating will reduce dodge by 1% and increase haste by 1% - it still puts haste ahead. Most people will say "But haste doesnt affect 100% of my dmg, expertise does". True but consider: (assume you have ONE % chance to be dodged)
- Expertise will convert that one dodge out of 100 attacks into a HIT.
- Haste will make you attack 101 times, addint another SWING which can miss/crit/glance etc (and with 50% crit
decent hit etc it just makes the "expected swing damage" higher then the "hit damage" by a lot.
Thus while haste works with swings only it adds more to them then hit/expertise.
Last edited by Shha : 02/11/08 at 9:27 AM.
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Originally Posted by Emeraude
Bah, loot is relative to the guild, raid, people in the raid, classes available at the time of the drop. I have a DST I never use anymore because I have better trinkets, and at the time in the raid nobody was around to take it. Those are the breaks. Silly to argue about!
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Originally Posted by Emeraude
Bah, loot is relative to the guild, raid, people in the raid, classes available at the time of the drop. I have a DST I never use anymore because I have better trinkets, and at the time in the raid nobody was around to take it. Those are the breaks. Silly to argue about!
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Edit:
Anyone knows, if the human racial expertise-bug persists on the PTR? Would be nice to know for future planing on weapons.
I was thinking about warriors post 2.4, I am raiding slam atm. 33/28
How would pure arms measure up to that post 2.4?, was thingin of tryin endless rage and stack up on +haste items and see how that does, any ideas?
How would pure arms measure up to that post 2.4?, was thingin of tryin endless rage and stack up on +haste items and see how that does, any ideas?
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Originally Posted by Trax
I was thinking about warriors post 2.4, I am raiding slam atm. 33/28
How would pure arms measure up to that post 2.4?, was thingin of tryin endless rage and stack up on +haste items and see how that does, any ideas? |
this issue may seem a little outdated but, regarding deathwish vs rampage discussion most of people stands out speaking about rampage as it was a constant 250 AP buff.
well in fact you have to renew the rampage at perfect timmings to diminish the rage loss and you have to constantly be thinking of the rampage renew, losing focus on the combos.
should i give this build a try?
Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft
20% each 3 min on a good combo hits would be more than what i use from rampage, even losing the weapon mastery imo.
what u think?
well in fact you have to renew the rampage at perfect timmings to diminish the rage loss and you have to constantly be thinking of the rampage renew, losing focus on the combos.
should i give this build a try?
Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft
20% each 3 min on a good combo hits would be more than what i use from rampage, even losing the weapon mastery imo.
what u think?
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Originally Posted by Kaan
DST is still clearly better than both of your trinkets, my friend... ^^*
Edit: Anyone knows, if the human racial expertise-bug persists on the PTR? Would be nice to know for future planing on weapons. |
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Originally Posted by Emeraude
You think [Dragonspine Trophy] is better then both [Berserker's Call] and [Tsunami Talisman]? Care to explain why exactly?
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| You think [Dragonspine Trophy] is better then both [Berserker's Call] and [Tsunami Talisman]? Care to explain why exactly? |
a) DST. I have this trinket myself and i made countless tests with it + ran uptime meters during actual raids. It procs about instantly when the gcd is up which makes the uptime actually HIGHER then theoretical (10sec/10+25 of hidden cooldown =2/7). Theoretical uptime is a bit over 28%, in reality is closer to 30% because it procs within few sec of fight, then right after cooldown. On shorter fights its up slightly more then the 28%. Still, lets assume 28% only. This makes the trinket:
40 ap 28%*325= 91 haste.
b) TT. internal CD of 45 sec. 10% chance to proc of crit hit i believe (Thats an assumption, but close to what i see). Its expected to proc around 10 sec+ after internal cd is up meaning its 10/65= ~15% uptime. In fact i read on forums here the proc turns out to be about equal to 0.8PPM. If you take this calculations then the uptime is 8/60 =13,(3)%. Assuming 14% uptime the trinket ends up being
10 hit 38 crit 340*14%= 48 ap.
c) Berskers call 90 ap passive. 360 1/6 of the time. Assuming you time it perfectly with haste pots we can assume that the 360 is amplified by (i assume haste affects 70% of your dmg) 30%+70%*125% = 117.5% factor. Heroism impact depends on the length of the fight. Overall i like to assume the impact of the trinket is 25% more because of "comboing" it with other cooldowns. It ends up being
90+125%*1/6*360 ap = 165 ap.
removing the 40 ap from all trinkets we get :
91 haste VS 10 hit 38 crit 8 ap VS 125 ap
using MY sep values of :
haste = 3ap
hit = 1.4 ap
crit = 2.4 ap
273 ap vs 113 ap vs 125 ap
It turns out DST is twice as good as the other two trinkets.
Possible things to influence the results:
a) Gear/Raid composition. It was calculated using MY raid/gear. We have every possible melee buff always up as i noted few posts above. My crit is over 50% (although slightly) average ap is probably at 4500 counting hunter debuffs on mobs etc. This boosts the value of stats that I neither have on gear nor possible to boost through raid setup - aka haste. The only raid buff boosting haste is obviously heroism/haste pots. Note that we dont rotate heroisms so thats not above average for us. If someone raids without totem twisted GoA/feral/ret paladin, then his crit will be valued a lot higher (those together add to over 11% extra crit , and very often people dont have them).
b) For slam warrior sometimes extra haste from DST , might interrupt slam rotations or just put the weapon below minimum speed. Again im DW fury.
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
I think Shha's arguments are very right. Nevertheless, DST is since EVER the best trinket when you use the warrior spreadsheets, this is evidence enough, I think. You need to proof that the spreadsheets are wrong - otherwise DST is still the best trinket, and by a very solid margin.
Also I guess you are underestimating haste and therefore DST... My personal thinking about haste is: it gives whole extra attacks over time. AP und Crit only make your attacks a bit stronger. So haste is a very strong stat that shouldn't be underestmated.
Also I guess you are underestimating haste and therefore DST... My personal thinking about haste is: it gives whole extra attacks over time. AP und Crit only make your attacks a bit stronger. So haste is a very strong stat that shouldn't be underestmated.
Last edited by Kaan : 02/11/08 at 5:07 PM.
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Originally Posted by Kaan
Also I guess you are underestimating haste and therefore DST... My personal thinking about haste is: it gives whole extra attacks over time. AP und Crit only make your attacks a bit stronger. So haste is a very strong stat that shouldn't be underestmated.
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If you had two identical pieces of armor with the same ilvl that had the same str/hit/sta/armor pen and the only difference was one offered 3% crit and the other offered 1% haste, which would you choose?
Yes, my numbers are intentionally skewed for the question because I'm trying to make the point that haste costs too much comparatively. The real difference is much smaller but still there. I would also like you to ponder that armor pen/str/crit increase the damage of ALL your attacks. Haste does not improve the damage from Bloodthirst/Whirlwind.
For Rogues this is still pretty good because of Combat Potency. We don't have Combat Potency. We have Flurry.
Haste is still hugely overrated imo. Sure, you get faster attack speed, but at high levels of gear you don't need the rage, and it just becomes another HS every 100 swings, versus every one of your 100 swings doing more damage/critting more often. I already have enough rage to basically spam my HS button the entire fight and never have to watch my rage to keep enough for bloodthirst/ww. Of course there will be periods of dodge/miss streaks but the point is at high levels of gear the passive crit on TT, and the ability to stack Berzerker's Call with bloodlust/haste potion/drums/recklessness makes it far superior to a haste proc.
Actually haste isn't really that expensive. I believe that it takes the same amount of haste rating for 1% as it does hit rating, ~15.8. Crit on the other hand is just about 22 per point. It's pretty easy to see how someone who has a 65-70% portion of they're damage coming from autoattack/HS to value haste as close to, or greater than crit.
With every raid buff/debuff you can stack to boost melee your AP is going to be through the roof, and crit won't be far behind. This leaves armor pen, but honestly, looking at the stats on 2.4 itemization it looks like getting to a relatively high armor pen level while still gaining a large portion of haste won't be too difficult.
With every raid buff/debuff you can stack to boost melee your AP is going to be through the roof, and crit won't be far behind. This leaves armor pen, but honestly, looking at the stats on 2.4 itemization it looks like getting to a relatively high armor pen level while still gaining a large portion of haste won't be too difficult.
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Originally Posted by Kaan
Hm, the question then is, why is the spreadsheet valueing haste so high? I've basically written down, what the sheet was always keeping telling me the last weeks.
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Originally Posted by LodeRunner
Well of course in THEORY haste is really good. No one disputes the fact that with 1% haste you'd get an extra swing in ever 100. In practice it's just too expensive, taking up other things on item budgets that would be better left as armor pen/str/crit. I don't know the real numbers off the top of my head and I'm at work right now but let me just pose a theoretical question to you:
If you had two identical pieces of armor with the same ilvl that had the same str/hit/sta/armor pen and the only difference was one offered 3% crit and the other offered 1% haste, which would you choose? Yes, my numbers are intentionally skewed for the question because I'm trying to make the point that haste costs too much comparatively. The real difference is much smaller but still there. I would also like you to ponder that armor pen/str/crit increase the damage of ALL your attacks. Haste does not improve the damage from Bloodthirst/Whirlwind. For Rogues this is still pretty good because of Combat Potency. We don't have Combat Potency. We have Flurry. |
Additionally Crit has diminishing returns. Going from 0% crit to 1% increases your dmg roughly by 1% (not counting impale etc). Going from 99% crit to 100% increases dmg by 0.5%. Also flurry uptime returns are much lower the more crit you have. Crit definitely outperforms haste at 0% crit, and it definitely loses at 100%. Somewhere in the middle is the equilibrum point, and while it depends on a lot of factors (rage generation, speed of weapons etc) and cant be calculated accurately in an easy way, its pretty safe to assume for T6+ warriors haste is ahead by a considerable margin.
The reason you even posted the "3% crit or 1% haste" example is a simple derivation from BT gear. Honestly haste itemization in BT is awful. Items have usually only haste and str or haste hit str on them. Thats bad, simply because only 2 or 3 dps stats is always bad for item budget. They didnt have sockets - again it reduces the value of gear in general. Finally they had huge stamina, again eating the stats. THATS why haste is seen as very expensive - in fact its not, being that it costs only around 70% of crit per percent.
Point about BT/WW is of course valid, however they only contribute to less then 30% of my damage. For slam/ms warriors its even better most of the time - IF you dont hit gcd cap on haste, it speeds up entire rotation working with 100% of your damaging moves.
| Quixotic Haste is still hugely overrated imo. Sure, you get faster attack speed, but at high levels of gear you don't need the rage, and it just becomes another HS every 100 swings, versus every one of your 100 swings doing more damage/critting more often. I already have enough rage to basically spam my HS button the entire fight and never have to watch my rage to keep enough for bloodthirst/ww. Of course there will be periods of dodge/miss streaks but the point is at high levels of gear the passive crit on TT, and the ability to stack Berzerker's Call with bloodlust/haste potion/drums/recklessness makes it far superior to a haste proc. |
As for passive crit on TT - like i said, im over 50% average crit in raids. Why would i really value some more that much? And dragonspine is hardly "random" to be honest - it procs within 5 sec of internal cooldown.
To reiterate . I Definitely wouldnt advise anyone to stack haste with CURRENT haste gear. BT haste gear is just awful. and only because of pre-nerf haste domination it was even used. However Sunwell gear is a different story. The haste stuff there has sockets, has often crit, ArP, and a lot of valuable stats on it. Dont ignore it just because of awful BT items
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Originally Posted by Shha
Additionally Crit has diminishing returns. Going from 0% crit to 1% increases your dmg roughly by 1% (not counting impale etc). Going from 99% crit to 100% increases dmg by 0.5%. Also flurry uptime returns are much lower the more crit you have. Crit definitely outperforms haste at 0% crit, and it definitely loses at 100%. Somewhere in the middle is the equilibrum point, and while it depends on a lot of factors (rage generation, speed of weapons etc) and cant be calculated accurately in an easy way, its pretty safe to assume for T6+ warriors haste is ahead by a considerable margin.
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That said, I dont think DST is worth twice as much as the others, but it is better. Its not so much that haste is powerful with it, just there is so much of it for a pretty consistent amount of time.
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
First of all, I only speak about DW-Fury, not MS-Fury etc. though I would wear DST with MS-Fury-Spec.
As said before, haste is undervalued by the most people because they think "uh, haste *bad items with worse stats and huge stamina come to mind* - haste sucks". No haste don't sucks and there are more and more items which are very fine with haste. DST, Pillager's Gauntlets, Cloak of Fiends, Tuskbreaker, Heartless when you need a slow offhand is very nice, Swiftsteel Bludgeon at least for Execute-Phase, and more.
When I exchange my DST with Berserkers Call, I have a loss in DPS of about 12 in Spreadsheet - this is huge. And bloodlust-phases won't change this, even considering your DST just don't procs in bloodlust-phases, it still is better. For me even Madness and TT are better than Berserkers Call. Madness has a high procrate, so it won't hurt your bloodlust-phases. I get the point, Berserkers Call is better to control, but thats all. The stats aren't a big shot.
edit: to loderunner:
Tuskbreaker VS. Ancient Amani Longbow, this is a excellent comparison to test how much haste "eats" from the itembudget:
Both weapons are ilvl 132, both have 38 AP. Ancient Amani with 126 ArP and Tuskbreaker with 18 Hasterating. My spreadsheet shows a difference of about 0,8 DPS between them. Saying this, CoR and FF are activated. Without these debuffs the difference is even lower. So I don't think hasterating eats too much itembudget per DPS. Its about the same as ArP, Critrating etc.
As said before, haste is undervalued by the most people because they think "uh, haste *bad items with worse stats and huge stamina come to mind* - haste sucks". No haste don't sucks and there are more and more items which are very fine with haste. DST, Pillager's Gauntlets, Cloak of Fiends, Tuskbreaker, Heartless when you need a slow offhand is very nice, Swiftsteel Bludgeon at least for Execute-Phase, and more.
When I exchange my DST with Berserkers Call, I have a loss in DPS of about 12 in Spreadsheet - this is huge. And bloodlust-phases won't change this, even considering your DST just don't procs in bloodlust-phases, it still is better. For me even Madness and TT are better than Berserkers Call. Madness has a high procrate, so it won't hurt your bloodlust-phases. I get the point, Berserkers Call is better to control, but thats all. The stats aren't a big shot.
edit: to loderunner:
Tuskbreaker VS. Ancient Amani Longbow, this is a excellent comparison to test how much haste "eats" from the itembudget:
Both weapons are ilvl 132, both have 38 AP. Ancient Amani with 126 ArP and Tuskbreaker with 18 Hasterating. My spreadsheet shows a difference of about 0,8 DPS between them. Saying this, CoR and FF are activated. Without these debuffs the difference is even lower. So I don't think hasterating eats too much itembudget per DPS. Its about the same as ArP, Critrating etc.
Last edited by Kaan : 02/12/08 at 5:28 AM.
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Originally Posted by Machinator
I am curious what you use for your comparisons of what is better. You used SEP values earlier of haste = 3ap, hit = 1.4 ap, crit = 2.4 ap. 1 str would then also equal 2.2 ap with kings. I am having a hard time finding any gear that would give those values and is keeping white+heroic at 70%. If haste affects your HS, then that means your HS is limited by your MH speed rather than rage. To do this your OH alone would have to power your rage, is this what you do? This all seems contrary to most of what people and sheets say.
That said, I dont think DST is worth twice as much as the others, but it is better. Its not so much that haste is powerful with it, just there is so much of it for a pretty consistent amount of time. |
Well the SEP values come from the warrior dps spreadsheets on these forums. The amount of white + heroic seems to be pretty constant for me and just comes from my own recount/wws data. Basically on 7700 armor bosses where i have some rage problems its 44% white 26% heroic on last najentus, up to 42% heroic 29% white on teron and other 6200 bosses. Given how fair share of the white is actually WF attacks, the actual Heroic Strike percentage is higher.
Obviously those are rough numbers with fluctuations happening , but basically heroic seems to be in 25-45% range, and white+heroic always end up being close to 70%. Other damage is BT at around 13-14%, WW at 8 or so, deep wounds at 2-3 then executes. This is also another reason why i started to value ap a bit lower. Early on BT was a lot more % of my damage, so ap seemed better (BT dmg scales with 0.45 of your AP, while other hits scale with weapon damage + 0.24 of ap for 2h, and around 0,25-0,3 of ap with dual wield - depending on your hit). Now i mostly ignore BT "pecularities" when choosing gear, and focus on stuff that boosts my autoattack in first place. Same deal with t6 - at first i thought that dropping some stats for 4 piece bonus might be somehow viable (i was never a BIG fan of it you know, but it felt that while 4 piece is pretty bad it just might slightly outperform stat loss), but not anymore. I wont even try to get 4 piece with new Sunwell pieces.
| Now i mostly ignore BT "pecularities" when choosing gear, and focus on stuff that boosts my autoattack in first place. Same deal with t6 - at first i thought that dropping some stats for 4 piece bonus might be somehow viable (i was never a BIG fan of it you know, but it felt that while 4 piece is pretty bad it just might slightly outperform stat loss), but not anymore. I wont even try to get 4 piece with new Sunwell pieces. |
Right now I am currently using Talon of Azshara in my MH and Merciless Gladators OH. I am pretty sure that I will grab the Syphon next time it drops for us. Should I then OH my Talon? or keep using the merc?
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Originally Posted by Shha
Well the SEP values come from the warrior dps spreadsheets on these forums. The amount of white + heroic seems to be pretty constant for me and just comes from my own recount/wws data. Basically on 7700 armor bosses where i have some rage problems its 44% white 26% heroic on last najentus, up to 42% heroic 29% white on teron and other 6200 bosses. Given how fair share of the white is actually WF attacks, the actual Heroic Strike percentage is higher.
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Originally Posted by Kaan
edit: to loderunner:
Tuskbreaker VS. Ancient Amani Longbow, this is a excellent comparison to test how much haste "eats" from the itembudget: Both weapons are ilvl 132, both have 38 AP. Ancient Amani with 126 ArP and Tuskbreaker with 18 Hasterating. My spreadsheet shows a difference of about 0,8 DPS between them. Saying this, CoR and FF are activated. Without these debuffs the difference is even lower. So I don't think hasterating eats too much itembudget per DPS. Its about the same as ArP, Critrating etc. |
Well the ZA ring in general is 2nd best in slot after the stormrage ring for dual wield, and after unstoppable agressor for 2h if you dont need the hit.
As for my Sunwell gear? Well so far it seems everything is an upgrade so ill slowly work towards that. All 3 new pieces of t6 are good, and all current one will be replaced (which means shoulders/chest as other have better stuff anyway).
From there i had a dilemma - to use leather or not. I decided not to, for few reasons.
- the difference seems to be very very small, and while i understand the idea of "dps above all" , I dont feel like sacrificing thousands of armor for 0.1% dps increase.
- Plate is much easier to get
- Some of the plate seems to be "converted" from tank gear. I found often its better for me to invest more in tanking gear for early progression, than dps gear. With the conversions its even easier to grab some tanking plate 1st then switch.
So after that choice which indicates picking up BS, i decided to go with JC as well after using my enchanting on the boe JC ring.
After that with BS chest/gloves JC neck/ring pauldrons of berserking crown of anastarian muramas/mounting vengeance etc i came up with stats of 2360ap in zerker (2050) 183 hit (187) 31,37% crit (35,05%) 1043 ArP (1330) and 232 haste (0).
Overall as you can see i gain around 15% faster white attack. I lose 290 ArP but thats more then made up byb 310 ap boost. In fact the 290 ArP seems to increase my dmg by around 2-2.5% while amount of AP needed for that boost is close to 140 at most. That "leaves" 170 ap to deal with loss of approx 4% crit (i pulled hit loss in here), which is again a very good ratio Basically in terms of "typical" stats I lose a bit of dps but not much. However the 15% haste comes as pure "gain" from sunwell gear. That doesnt include sunwell trinkets and such.
As for my Sunwell gear? Well so far it seems everything is an upgrade so ill slowly work towards that. All 3 new pieces of t6 are good, and all current one will be replaced (which means shoulders/chest as other have better stuff anyway).
From there i had a dilemma - to use leather or not. I decided not to, for few reasons.
- the difference seems to be very very small, and while i understand the idea of "dps above all" , I dont feel like sacrificing thousands of armor for 0.1% dps increase.
- Plate is much easier to get
- Some of the plate seems to be "converted" from tank gear. I found often its better for me to invest more in tanking gear for early progression, than dps gear. With the conversions its even easier to grab some tanking plate 1st then switch.
So after that choice which indicates picking up BS, i decided to go with JC as well after using my enchanting on the boe JC ring.
After that with BS chest/gloves JC neck/ring pauldrons of berserking crown of anastarian muramas/mounting vengeance etc i came up with stats of 2360ap in zerker (2050) 183 hit (187) 31,37% crit (35,05%) 1043 ArP (1330) and 232 haste (0).
Overall as you can see i gain around 15% faster white attack. I lose 290 ArP but thats more then made up byb 310 ap boost. In fact the 290 ArP seems to increase my dmg by around 2-2.5% while amount of AP needed for that boost is close to 140 at most. That "leaves" 170 ap to deal with loss of approx 4% crit (i pulled hit loss in here), which is again a very good ratio Basically in terms of "typical" stats I lose a bit of dps but not much. However the 15% haste comes as pure "gain" from sunwell gear. That doesnt include sunwell trinkets and such.
My fury warrior has 3 weapons to choose from:
Spiteblade with mongoose
The Decapitator
Akil'zon's Talonblade
According to maxdps.com, both Spiteblade and Decapitator are better than Akil'zon. Is that really the case ? Which two should I use and which in MH/OH ?
Armory: The World of Warcraft Armory
It might show my spec as Arms, but that was for pvp. I logged off in my fury gear.
Spiteblade with mongoose
The Decapitator
Akil'zon's Talonblade
According to maxdps.com, both Spiteblade and Decapitator are better than Akil'zon. Is that really the case ? Which two should I use and which in MH/OH ?
Armory: The World of Warcraft Armory
It might show my spec as Arms, but that was for pvp. I logged off in my fury gear.
Could i ask, what is the general consensus on 2H Fury?
I put this forward to my guild not long ago and it was met with questioning looks, to me it appears to have several upsides.
Say with a build like... Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft
(Crude i know, work with me!)
A "typical" 33/28 spec has (over 20/41)
- MS
- 2% 2H spec
- Weapon Spec
- Blood Frenzy
20/41 has (over 33/28)
- Bloodthirst
- 9sec Whirlwind
- extra 10% Attack Speed on Flurry
- -2% target dodge
- 3% hit
- 10% AP
- Rampage
To me, it looks like 20/41 should scale better, but the aspect i like the most is how easy a 3sec cycle can be with a fast enough weapon (zomg fast?!?!?!!!)
The idea being, that getting a weapon swing timer to 2.5sec means that you can essentially cycle slam -> instant without fear of clipping the swing timer.
On paper this seems inferior, in practice i feel it plays out better.
What i am looking for is flaws in the theory before i progress into the wide world of excel.
I put this forward to my guild not long ago and it was met with questioning looks, to me it appears to have several upsides.
Say with a build like... Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft
(Crude i know, work with me!)
A "typical" 33/28 spec has (over 20/41)
- MS
- 2% 2H spec
- Weapon Spec
- Blood Frenzy
20/41 has (over 33/28)
- Bloodthirst
- 9sec Whirlwind
- extra 10% Attack Speed on Flurry
- -2% target dodge
- 3% hit
- 10% AP
- Rampage
To me, it looks like 20/41 should scale better, but the aspect i like the most is how easy a 3sec cycle can be with a fast enough weapon (zomg fast?!?!?!!!)
The idea being, that getting a weapon swing timer to 2.5sec means that you can essentially cycle slam -> instant without fear of clipping the swing timer.
On paper this seems inferior, in practice i feel it plays out better.
What i am looking for is flaws in the theory before i progress into the wide world of excel.
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Originally Posted by Shha
Well the ZA ring in general is 2nd best in slot after the stormrage ring for dual wield, and after unstoppable agressor for 2h if you dont need the hit.
As for my Sunwell gear? Well so far it seems everything is an upgrade so ill slowly work towards that. All 3 new pieces of t6 are good, and all current one will be replaced (which means shoulders/chest as other have better stuff anyway). From there i had a dilemma - to use leather or not. I decided not to, for few reasons. - the difference seems to be very very small, and while i understand the idea of "dps above all" , I dont feel like sacrificing thousands of armor for 0.1% dps increase. - Plate is much easier to get - Some of the plate seems to be "converted" from tank gear. I found often its better for me to invest more in tanking gear for early progression, than dps gear. With the conversions its even easier to grab some tanking plate 1st then switch. So after that choice which indicates picking up BS, i decided to go with JC as well after using my enchanting on the boe JC ring. After that with BS chest/gloves JC neck/ring pauldrons of berserking crown of anastarian muramas/mounting vengeance etc i came up with stats of 2360ap in zerker (2050) 183 hit (187) 31,37% crit (35,05%) 1043 ArP (1330) and 232 haste (0). Overall as you can see i gain around 15% faster white attack. I lose 290 ArP but thats more then made up byb 310 ap boost. In fact the 290 ArP seems to increase my dmg by around 2-2.5% while amount of AP needed for that boost is close to 140 at most. That "leaves" 170 ap to deal with loss of approx 4% crit (i pulled hit loss in here), which is again a very good ratio Basically in terms of "typical" stats I lose a bit of dps but not much. However the 15% haste comes as pure "gain" from sunwell gear. That doesnt include sunwell trinkets and such. |
[Dreadboots of the Legion] vs. [Onslaught Treads] both socketed with 5crit/5str.
+14 stamina
+7 hit rating
+30 haste rating
-40 crit rating
[Hard Khorium Battleplate] vs [Warharness of Reckless Fury] both socketed with 5crit/5str.
+12 stamina
+4 str
+32 haste rating
-4 crit rating
-280 armor penetration
I suppose it comes down to how much haste is on the 'ideal' fury warrior DPS set, and see how much total haste you have has on the new SEP value for haste, and we'll just have to wait on more items to come out to see. I will say that other than the leatherworking BoE gloves there could potentially be only plate in the 'ideal' set, versus having Illidan helm/Archimonde chest as it stands now.
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Originally Posted by Emeraude
Bah, loot is relative to the guild, raid, people in the raid, classes available at the time of the drop. I have a DST I never use anymore because I have better trinkets, and at the time in the raid nobody was around to take it. Those are the breaks. Silly to argue about!
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Originally Posted by Emeraude
Bah, loot is relative to the guild, raid, people in the raid, classes available at the time of the drop. I have a DST I never use anymore because I have better trinkets, and at the time in the raid nobody was around to take it. Those are the breaks. Silly to argue about!
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Edit:
Anyone knows, if the human racial expertise-bug persists on the PTR? Would be nice to know for future planing on weapons.
I was thinking about warriors post 2.4, I am raiding slam atm. 33/28
How would pure arms measure up to that post 2.4?, was thingin of tryin endless rage and stack up on +haste items and see how that does, any ideas?
How would pure arms measure up to that post 2.4?, was thingin of tryin endless rage and stack up on +haste items and see how that does, any ideas?
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Originally Posted by Trax
I was thinking about warriors post 2.4, I am raiding slam atm. 33/28
How would pure arms measure up to that post 2.4?, was thingin of tryin endless rage and stack up on +haste items and see how that does, any ideas? |
this issue may seem a little outdated but, regarding deathwish vs rampage discussion most of people stands out speaking about rampage as it was a constant 250 AP buff.
well in fact you have to renew the rampage at perfect timmings to diminish the rage loss and you have to constantly be thinking of the rampage renew, losing focus on the combos.
should i give this build a try?
Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft
20% each 3 min on a good combo hits would be more than what i use from rampage, even losing the weapon mastery imo.
what u think?
well in fact you have to renew the rampage at perfect timmings to diminish the rage loss and you have to constantly be thinking of the rampage renew, losing focus on the combos.
should i give this build a try?
Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft
20% each 3 min on a good combo hits would be more than what i use from rampage, even losing the weapon mastery imo.
what u think?
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Originally Posted by Kaan
DST is still clearly better than both of your trinkets, my friend... ^^*
Edit: Anyone knows, if the human racial expertise-bug persists on the PTR? Would be nice to know for future planing on weapons. |
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Originally Posted by Emeraude
You think [Dragonspine Trophy] is better then both [Berserker's Call] and [Tsunami Talisman]? Care to explain why exactly?
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| You think [Dragonspine Trophy] is better then both [Berserker's Call] and [Tsunami Talisman]? Care to explain why exactly? |
a) DST. I have this trinket myself and i made countless tests with it + ran uptime meters during actual raids. It procs about instantly when the gcd is up which makes the uptime actually HIGHER then theoretical (10sec/10+25 of hidden cooldown =2/7). Theoretical uptime is a bit over 28%, in reality is closer to 30% because it procs within few sec of fight, then right after cooldown. On shorter fights its up slightly more then the 28%. Still, lets assume 28% only. This makes the trinket:
40 ap 28%*325= 91 haste.
b) TT. internal CD of 45 sec. 10% chance to proc of crit hit i believe (Thats an assumption, but close to what i see). Its expected to proc around 10 sec+ after internal cd is up meaning its 10/65= ~15% uptime. In fact i read on forums here the proc turns out to be about equal to 0.8PPM. If you take this calculations then the uptime is 8/60 =13,(3)%. Assuming 14% uptime the trinket ends up being
10 hit 38 crit 340*14%= 48 ap.
c) Berskers call 90 ap passive. 360 1/6 of the time. Assuming you time it perfectly with haste pots we can assume that the 360 is amplified by (i assume haste affects 70% of your dmg) 30%+70%*125% = 117.5% factor. Heroism impact depends on the length of the fight. Overall i like to assume the impact of the trinket is 25% more because of "comboing" it with other cooldowns. It ends up being
90+125%*1/6*360 ap = 165 ap.
removing the 40 ap from all trinkets we get :
91 haste VS 10 hit 38 crit 8 ap VS 125 ap
using MY sep values of :
haste = 3ap
hit = 1.4 ap
crit = 2.4 ap
273 ap vs 113 ap vs 125 ap
It turns out DST is twice as good as the other two trinkets.
Possible things to influence the results:
a) Gear/Raid composition. It was calculated using MY raid/gear. We have every possible melee buff always up as i noted few posts above. My crit is over 50% (although slightly) average ap is probably at 4500 counting hunter debuffs on mobs etc. This boosts the value of stats that I neither have on gear nor possible to boost through raid setup - aka haste. The only raid buff boosting haste is obviously heroism/haste pots. Note that we dont rotate heroisms so thats not above average for us. If someone raids without totem twisted GoA/feral/ret paladin, then his crit will be valued a lot higher (those together add to over 11% extra crit , and very often people dont have them).
b) For slam warrior sometimes extra haste from DST , might interrupt slam rotations or just put the weapon below minimum speed. Again im DW fury.
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
I think Shha's arguments are very right. Nevertheless, DST is since EVER the best trinket when you use the warrior spreadsheets, this is evidence enough, I think. You need to proof that the spreadsheets are wrong - otherwise DST is still the best trinket, and by a very solid margin.
Also I guess you are underestimating haste and therefore DST... My personal thinking about haste is: it gives whole extra attacks over time. AP und Crit only make your attacks a bit stronger. So haste is a very strong stat that shouldn't be underestmated.
Also I guess you are underestimating haste and therefore DST... My personal thinking about haste is: it gives whole extra attacks over time. AP und Crit only make your attacks a bit stronger. So haste is a very strong stat that shouldn't be underestmated.
Last edited by Kaan : 02/11/08 at 5:07 PM.
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Originally Posted by Kaan
Also I guess you are underestimating haste and therefore DST... My personal thinking about haste is: it gives whole extra attacks over time. AP und Crit only make your attacks a bit stronger. So haste is a very strong stat that shouldn't be underestmated.
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If you had two identical pieces of armor with the same ilvl that had the same str/hit/sta/armor pen and the only difference was one offered 3% crit and the other offered 1% haste, which would you choose?
Yes, my numbers are intentionally skewed for the question because I'm trying to make the point that haste costs too much comparatively. The real difference is much smaller but still there. I would also like you to ponder that armor pen/str/crit increase the damage of ALL your attacks. Haste does not improve the damage from Bloodthirst/Whirlwind.
For Rogues this is still pretty good because of Combat Potency. We don't have Combat Potency. We have Flurry.
Haste is still hugely overrated imo. Sure, you get faster attack speed, but at high levels of gear you don't need the rage, and it just becomes another HS every 100 swings, versus every one of your 100 swings doing more damage/critting more often. I already have enough rage to basically spam my HS button the entire fight and never have to watch my rage to keep enough for bloodthirst/ww. Of course there will be periods of dodge/miss streaks but the point is at high levels of gear the passive crit on TT, and the ability to stack Berzerker's Call with bloodlust/haste potion/drums/recklessness makes it far superior to a haste proc.
Actually haste isn't really that expensive. I believe that it takes the same amount of haste rating for 1% as it does hit rating, ~15.8. Crit on the other hand is just about 22 per point. It's pretty easy to see how someone who has a 65-70% portion of they're damage coming from autoattack/HS to value haste as close to, or greater than crit.
With every raid buff/debuff you can stack to boost melee your AP is going to be through the roof, and crit won't be far behind. This leaves armor pen, but honestly, looking at the stats on 2.4 itemization it looks like getting to a relatively high armor pen level while still gaining a large portion of haste won't be too difficult.
With every raid buff/debuff you can stack to boost melee your AP is going to be through the roof, and crit won't be far behind. This leaves armor pen, but honestly, looking at the stats on 2.4 itemization it looks like getting to a relatively high armor pen level while still gaining a large portion of haste won't be too difficult.
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Originally Posted by Kaan
Hm, the question then is, why is the spreadsheet valueing haste so high? I've basically written down, what the sheet was always keeping telling me the last weeks.
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Originally Posted by LodeRunner
Well of course in THEORY haste is really good. No one disputes the fact that with 1% haste you'd get an extra swing in ever 100. In practice it's just too expensive, taking up other things on item budgets that would be better left as armor pen/str/crit. I don't know the real numbers off the top of my head and I'm at work right now but let me just pose a theoretical question to you:
If you had two identical pieces of armor with the same ilvl that had the same str/hit/sta/armor pen and the only difference was one offered 3% crit and the other offered 1% haste, which would you choose? Yes, my numbers are intentionally skewed for the question because I'm trying to make the point that haste costs too much comparatively. The real difference is much smaller but still there. I would also like you to ponder that armor pen/str/crit increase the damage of ALL your attacks. Haste does not improve the damage from Bloodthirst/Whirlwind. For Rogues this is still pretty good because of Combat Potency. We don't have Combat Potency. We have Flurry. |
Additionally Crit has diminishing returns. Going from 0% crit to 1% increases your dmg roughly by 1% (not counting impale etc). Going from 99% crit to 100% increases dmg by 0.5%. Also flurry uptime returns are much lower the more crit you have. Crit definitely outperforms haste at 0% crit, and it definitely loses at 100%. Somewhere in the middle is the equilibrum point, and while it depends on a lot of factors (rage generation, speed of weapons etc) and cant be calculated accurately in an easy way, its pretty safe to assume for T6+ warriors haste is ahead by a considerable margin.
The reason you even posted the "3% crit or 1% haste" example is a simple derivation from BT gear. Honestly haste itemization in BT is awful. Items have usually only haste and str or haste hit str on them. Thats bad, simply because only 2 or 3 dps stats is always bad for item budget. They didnt have sockets - again it reduces the value of gear in general. Finally they had huge stamina, again eating the stats. THATS why haste is seen as very expensive - in fact its not, being that it costs only around 70% of crit per percent.
Point about BT/WW is of course valid, however they only contribute to less then 30% of my damage. For slam/ms warriors its even better most of the time - IF you dont hit gcd cap on haste, it speeds up entire rotation working with 100% of your damaging moves.
| Quixotic Haste is still hugely overrated imo. Sure, you get faster attack speed, but at high levels of gear you don't need the rage, and it just becomes another HS every 100 swings, versus every one of your 100 swings doing more damage/critting more often. I already have enough rage to basically spam my HS button the entire fight and never have to watch my rage to keep enough for bloodthirst/ww. Of course there will be periods of dodge/miss streaks but the point is at high levels of gear the passive crit on TT, and the ability to stack Berzerker's Call with bloodlust/haste potion/drums/recklessness makes it far superior to a haste proc. |
As for passive crit on TT - like i said, im over 50% average crit in raids. Why would i really value some more that much? And dragonspine is hardly "random" to be honest - it procs within 5 sec of internal cooldown.
To reiterate . I Definitely wouldnt advise anyone to stack haste with CURRENT haste gear. BT haste gear is just awful. and only because of pre-nerf haste domination it was even used. However Sunwell gear is a different story. The haste stuff there has sockets, has often crit, ArP, and a lot of valuable stats on it. Dont ignore it just because of awful BT items
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Originally Posted by Shha
Additionally Crit has diminishing returns. Going from 0% crit to 1% increases your dmg roughly by 1% (not counting impale etc). Going from 99% crit to 100% increases dmg by 0.5%. Also flurry uptime returns are much lower the more crit you have. Crit definitely outperforms haste at 0% crit, and it definitely loses at 100%. Somewhere in the middle is the equilibrum point, and while it depends on a lot of factors (rage generation, speed of weapons etc) and cant be calculated accurately in an easy way, its pretty safe to assume for T6+ warriors haste is ahead by a considerable margin.
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That said, I dont think DST is worth twice as much as the others, but it is better. Its not so much that haste is powerful with it, just there is so much of it for a pretty consistent amount of time.
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
First of all, I only speak about DW-Fury, not MS-Fury etc. though I would wear DST with MS-Fury-Spec.
As said before, haste is undervalued by the most people because they think "uh, haste *bad items with worse stats and huge stamina come to mind* - haste sucks". No haste don't sucks and there are more and more items which are very fine with haste. DST, Pillager's Gauntlets, Cloak of Fiends, Tuskbreaker, Heartless when you need a slow offhand is very nice, Swiftsteel Bludgeon at least for Execute-Phase, and more.
When I exchange my DST with Berserkers Call, I have a loss in DPS of about 12 in Spreadsheet - this is huge. And bloodlust-phases won't change this, even considering your DST just don't procs in bloodlust-phases, it still is better. For me even Madness and TT are better than Berserkers Call. Madness has a high procrate, so it won't hurt your bloodlust-phases. I get the point, Berserkers Call is better to control, but thats all. The stats aren't a big shot.
edit: to loderunner:
Tuskbreaker VS. Ancient Amani Longbow, this is a excellent comparison to test how much haste "eats" from the itembudget:
Both weapons are ilvl 132, both have 38 AP. Ancient Amani with 126 ArP and Tuskbreaker with 18 Hasterating. My spreadsheet shows a difference of about 0,8 DPS between them. Saying this, CoR and FF are activated. Without these debuffs the difference is even lower. So I don't think hasterating eats too much itembudget per DPS. Its about the same as ArP, Critrating etc.
As said before, haste is undervalued by the most people because they think "uh, haste *bad items with worse stats and huge stamina come to mind* - haste sucks". No haste don't sucks and there are more and more items which are very fine with haste. DST, Pillager's Gauntlets, Cloak of Fiends, Tuskbreaker, Heartless when you need a slow offhand is very nice, Swiftsteel Bludgeon at least for Execute-Phase, and more.
When I exchange my DST with Berserkers Call, I have a loss in DPS of about 12 in Spreadsheet - this is huge. And bloodlust-phases won't change this, even considering your DST just don't procs in bloodlust-phases, it still is better. For me even Madness and TT are better than Berserkers Call. Madness has a high procrate, so it won't hurt your bloodlust-phases. I get the point, Berserkers Call is better to control, but thats all. The stats aren't a big shot.
edit: to loderunner:
Tuskbreaker VS. Ancient Amani Longbow, this is a excellent comparison to test how much haste "eats" from the itembudget:
Both weapons are ilvl 132, both have 38 AP. Ancient Amani with 126 ArP and Tuskbreaker with 18 Hasterating. My spreadsheet shows a difference of about 0,8 DPS between them. Saying this, CoR and FF are activated. Without these debuffs the difference is even lower. So I don't think hasterating eats too much itembudget per DPS. Its about the same as ArP, Critrating etc.
Last edited by Kaan : 02/12/08 at 5:28 AM.
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Originally Posted by Machinator
I am curious what you use for your comparisons of what is better. You used SEP values earlier of haste = 3ap, hit = 1.4 ap, crit = 2.4 ap. 1 str would then also equal 2.2 ap with kings. I am having a hard time finding any gear that would give those values and is keeping white+heroic at 70%. If haste affects your HS, then that means your HS is limited by your MH speed rather than rage. To do this your OH alone would have to power your rage, is this what you do? This all seems contrary to most of what people and sheets say.
That said, I dont think DST is worth twice as much as the others, but it is better. Its not so much that haste is powerful with it, just there is so much of it for a pretty consistent amount of time. |
Well the SEP values come from the warrior dps spreadsheets on these forums. The amount of white + heroic seems to be pretty constant for me and just comes from my own recount/wws data. Basically on 7700 armor bosses where i have some rage problems its 44% white 26% heroic on last najentus, up to 42% heroic 29% white on teron and other 6200 bosses. Given how fair share of the white is actually WF attacks, the actual Heroic Strike percentage is higher.
Obviously those are rough numbers with fluctuations happening , but basically heroic seems to be in 25-45% range, and white+heroic always end up being close to 70%. Other damage is BT at around 13-14%, WW at 8 or so, deep wounds at 2-3 then executes. This is also another reason why i started to value ap a bit lower. Early on BT was a lot more % of my damage, so ap seemed better (BT dmg scales with 0.45 of your AP, while other hits scale with weapon damage + 0.24 of ap for 2h, and around 0,25-0,3 of ap with dual wield - depending on your hit). Now i mostly ignore BT "pecularities" when choosing gear, and focus on stuff that boosts my autoattack in first place. Same deal with t6 - at first i thought that dropping some stats for 4 piece bonus might be somehow viable (i was never a BIG fan of it you know, but it felt that while 4 piece is pretty bad it just might slightly outperform stat loss), but not anymore. I wont even try to get 4 piece with new Sunwell pieces.
| Now i mostly ignore BT "pecularities" when choosing gear, and focus on stuff that boosts my autoattack in first place. Same deal with t6 - at first i thought that dropping some stats for 4 piece bonus might be somehow viable (i was never a BIG fan of it you know, but it felt that while 4 piece is pretty bad it just might slightly outperform stat loss), but not anymore. I wont even try to get 4 piece with new Sunwell pieces. |
Right now I am currently using Talon of Azshara in my MH and Merciless Gladators OH. I am pretty sure that I will grab the Syphon next time it drops for us. Should I then OH my Talon? or keep using the merc?
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Originally Posted by Shha
Well the SEP values come from the warrior dps spreadsheets on these forums. The amount of white + heroic seems to be pretty constant for me and just comes from my own recount/wws data. Basically on 7700 armor bosses where i have some rage problems its 44% white 26% heroic on last najentus, up to 42% heroic 29% white on teron and other 6200 bosses. Given how fair share of the white is actually WF attacks, the actual Heroic Strike percentage is higher.
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Originally Posted by Kaan
edit: to loderunner:
Tuskbreaker VS. Ancient Amani Longbow, this is a excellent comparison to test how much haste "eats" from the itembudget: Both weapons are ilvl 132, both have 38 AP. Ancient Amani with 126 ArP and Tuskbreaker with 18 Hasterating. My spreadsheet shows a difference of about 0,8 DPS between them. Saying this, CoR and FF are activated. Without these debuffs the difference is even lower. So I don't think hasterating eats too much itembudget per DPS. Its about the same as ArP, Critrating etc. |
Well the ZA ring in general is 2nd best in slot after the stormrage ring for dual wield, and after unstoppable agressor for 2h if you dont need the hit.
As for my Sunwell gear? Well so far it seems everything is an upgrade so ill slowly work towards that. All 3 new pieces of t6 are good, and all current one will be replaced (which means shoulders/chest as other have better stuff anyway).
From there i had a dilemma - to use leather or not. I decided not to, for few reasons.
- the difference seems to be very very small, and while i understand the idea of "dps above all" , I dont feel like sacrificing thousands of armor for 0.1% dps increase.
- Plate is much easier to get
- Some of the plate seems to be "converted" from tank gear. I found often its better for me to invest more in tanking gear for early progression, than dps gear. With the conversions its even easier to grab some tanking plate 1st then switch.
So after that choice which indicates picking up BS, i decided to go with JC as well after using my enchanting on the boe JC ring.
After that with BS chest/gloves JC neck/ring pauldrons of berserking crown of anastarian muramas/mounting vengeance etc i came up with stats of 2360ap in zerker (2050) 183 hit (187) 31,37% crit (35,05%) 1043 ArP (1330) and 232 haste (0).
Overall as you can see i gain around 15% faster white attack. I lose 290 ArP but thats more then made up byb 310 ap boost. In fact the 290 ArP seems to increase my dmg by around 2-2.5% while amount of AP needed for that boost is close to 140 at most. That "leaves" 170 ap to deal with loss of approx 4% crit (i pulled hit loss in here), which is again a very good ratio Basically in terms of "typical" stats I lose a bit of dps but not much. However the 15% haste comes as pure "gain" from sunwell gear. That doesnt include sunwell trinkets and such.
As for my Sunwell gear? Well so far it seems everything is an upgrade so ill slowly work towards that. All 3 new pieces of t6 are good, and all current one will be replaced (which means shoulders/chest as other have better stuff anyway).
From there i had a dilemma - to use leather or not. I decided not to, for few reasons.
- the difference seems to be very very small, and while i understand the idea of "dps above all" , I dont feel like sacrificing thousands of armor for 0.1% dps increase.
- Plate is much easier to get
- Some of the plate seems to be "converted" from tank gear. I found often its better for me to invest more in tanking gear for early progression, than dps gear. With the conversions its even easier to grab some tanking plate 1st then switch.
So after that choice which indicates picking up BS, i decided to go with JC as well after using my enchanting on the boe JC ring.
After that with BS chest/gloves JC neck/ring pauldrons of berserking crown of anastarian muramas/mounting vengeance etc i came up with stats of 2360ap in zerker (2050) 183 hit (187) 31,37% crit (35,05%) 1043 ArP (1330) and 232 haste (0).
Overall as you can see i gain around 15% faster white attack. I lose 290 ArP but thats more then made up byb 310 ap boost. In fact the 290 ArP seems to increase my dmg by around 2-2.5% while amount of AP needed for that boost is close to 140 at most. That "leaves" 170 ap to deal with loss of approx 4% crit (i pulled hit loss in here), which is again a very good ratio Basically in terms of "typical" stats I lose a bit of dps but not much. However the 15% haste comes as pure "gain" from sunwell gear. That doesnt include sunwell trinkets and such.
My fury warrior has 3 weapons to choose from:
Spiteblade with mongoose
The Decapitator
Akil'zon's Talonblade
According to maxdps.com, both Spiteblade and Decapitator are better than Akil'zon. Is that really the case ? Which two should I use and which in MH/OH ?
Armory: The World of Warcraft Armory
It might show my spec as Arms, but that was for pvp. I logged off in my fury gear.
Spiteblade with mongoose
The Decapitator
Akil'zon's Talonblade
According to maxdps.com, both Spiteblade and Decapitator are better than Akil'zon. Is that really the case ? Which two should I use and which in MH/OH ?
Armory: The World of Warcraft Armory
It might show my spec as Arms, but that was for pvp. I logged off in my fury gear.
Could i ask, what is the general consensus on 2H Fury?
I put this forward to my guild not long ago and it was met with questioning looks, to me it appears to have several upsides.
Say with a build like... Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft
(Crude i know, work with me!)
A "typical" 33/28 spec has (over 20/41)
- MS
- 2% 2H spec
- Weapon Spec
- Blood Frenzy
20/41 has (over 33/28)
- Bloodthirst
- 9sec Whirlwind
- extra 10% Attack Speed on Flurry
- -2% target dodge
- 3% hit
- 10% AP
- Rampage
To me, it looks like 20/41 should scale better, but the aspect i like the most is how easy a 3sec cycle can be with a fast enough weapon (zomg fast?!?!?!!!)
The idea being, that getting a weapon swing timer to 2.5sec means that you can essentially cycle slam -> instant without fear of clipping the swing timer.
On paper this seems inferior, in practice i feel it plays out better.
What i am looking for is flaws in the theory before i progress into the wide world of excel.
I put this forward to my guild not long ago and it was met with questioning looks, to me it appears to have several upsides.
Say with a build like... Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft
(Crude i know, work with me!)
A "typical" 33/28 spec has (over 20/41)
- MS
- 2% 2H spec
- Weapon Spec
- Blood Frenzy
20/41 has (over 33/28)
- Bloodthirst
- 9sec Whirlwind
- extra 10% Attack Speed on Flurry
- -2% target dodge
- 3% hit
- 10% AP
- Rampage
To me, it looks like 20/41 should scale better, but the aspect i like the most is how easy a 3sec cycle can be with a fast enough weapon (zomg fast?!?!?!!!)
The idea being, that getting a weapon swing timer to 2.5sec means that you can essentially cycle slam -> instant without fear of clipping the swing timer.
On paper this seems inferior, in practice i feel it plays out better.
What i am looking for is flaws in the theory before i progress into the wide world of excel.
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Originally Posted by Shha
Well the ZA ring in general is 2nd best in slot after the stormrage ring for dual wield, and after unstoppable agressor for 2h if you dont need the hit.
As for my Sunwell gear? Well so far it seems everything is an upgrade so ill slowly work towards that. All 3 new pieces of t6 are good, and all current one will be replaced (which means shoulders/chest as other have better stuff anyway). From there i had a dilemma - to use leather or not. I decided not to, for few reasons. - the difference seems to be very very small, and while i understand the idea of "dps above all" , I dont feel like sacrificing thousands of armor for 0.1% dps increase. - Plate is much easier to get - Some of the plate seems to be "converted" from tank gear. I found often its better for me to invest more in tanking gear for early progression, than dps gear. With the conversions its even easier to grab some tanking plate 1st then switch. So after that choice which indicates picking up BS, i decided to go with JC as well after using my enchanting on the boe JC ring. After that with BS chest/gloves JC neck/ring pauldrons of berserking crown of anastarian muramas/mounting vengeance etc i came up with stats of 2360ap in zerker (2050) 183 hit (187) 31,37% crit (35,05%) 1043 ArP (1330) and 232 haste (0). Overall as you can see i gain around 15% faster white attack. I lose 290 ArP but thats more then made up byb 310 ap boost. In fact the 290 ArP seems to increase my dmg by around 2-2.5% while amount of AP needed for that boost is close to 140 at most. That "leaves" 170 ap to deal with loss of approx 4% crit (i pulled hit loss in here), which is again a very good ratio Basically in terms of "typical" stats I lose a bit of dps but not much. However the 15% haste comes as pure "gain" from sunwell gear. That doesnt include sunwell trinkets and such. |
[Dreadboots of the Legion] vs. [Onslaught Treads] both socketed with 5crit/5str.
+14 stamina
+7 hit rating
+30 haste rating
-40 crit rating
[Hard Khorium Battleplate] vs [Warharness of Reckless Fury] both socketed with 5crit/5str.
+12 stamina
+4 str
+32 haste rating
-4 crit rating
-280 armor penetration
I suppose it comes down to how much haste is on the 'ideal' fury warrior DPS set, and see how much total haste you have has on the new SEP value for haste, and we'll just have to wait on more items to come out to see. I will say that other than the leatherworking BoE gloves there could potentially be only plate in the 'ideal' set, versus having Illidan helm/Archimonde chest as it stands now.
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Originally Posted by Apfelkäse
Anyone else respeccing to Jewelcrafting? I am atleast ^^ Love the new neck, I'm dropping Mining for Jewelcrafting
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I did that for the eng helms. It was the right choice but I *hate* not being a miner. So much money I could have made and saved.
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
bad raid boss crit rate
Hey all, I've been having a lot of trouble with my crit rate on boss fights being much lower than what is reported in my character sheet for 25 man boss fights. I was hoping someone here might have an idea why. I have most of the best gear available to me now, and raid as 33/28/0 (currently the only DPS warrior in the guild). My character sheet has me at just below 32% to crit in zerker stance raid buffed without a feral. Most WWS reports and recount meters have been showing me between 20%-25% crit rate for boss fights for quite a while now (at least 6 weeks). Even with a feral, my crit rate has been coming through between 5%-10% lower than my character sheet.
It had been suggested that not being hit capped is hurting my crit rate so I have been using the hit food lately, but that has not changed anything. A final note, this only seems to be happening in BT / Hyjal. I've done a few ZA runs and my crit rate has been relatively consistent with my character sheet there. Any ideas would be greatly appreciated!
It had been suggested that not being hit capped is hurting my crit rate so I have been using the hit food lately, but that has not changed anything. A final note, this only seems to be happening in BT / Hyjal. I've done a few ZA runs and my crit rate has been relatively consistent with my character sheet there. Any ideas would be greatly appreciated!
Last edited by Azonos : 02/14/08 at 3:47 PM.
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Originally Posted by Malorneecs
I think this is a really important point which has been largely ignored. While total DPS is important, we also need to consider total threat. Assuming you had enough rage to use BT and WW every time they're up (and keep your shout and rampage up) additional hits from haste will increase your white damage AND your HS damage (since you’ll have extra rage to dump), thereby increasing threat. It seems to me that as HS counts for a higher and higher percent of your total damage, while your theoretical DPS increases, you will become limited by threat.
Also, on a similar note, fast or slow MH? A slow MH will clearly increase your WW damage, but a fast MH will increase your HS damage since HS costs less rage when used with a faster weapon-->HS with a slow 2 hander costs 15 (or 12) PLUS the rage you WOULD have gotten for the foregone white hit (maybe 30 for a 2 hander...a total of 45 rage for 208 damage). If you're swinging a 1.5 second rogue off-hand-type weapon, your HS will only cost 15+maybe 10 rage for the same 208 bonus damage. Anyway, I think both of these issues (haste and slow vs. fast MH) are both somewhat related as they both pertain to the concept of being threat capped (something that doesn't show on a spreadsheet) as the percentage of your total damage done by HS steadily increases. Thoughts on how to measure this? Gut feelings? |
When evaluting haste, I always take it as a ratio to hit rating as the perform similarly. Over a 100 swing timed period, 1% hit will net you one weapon damage. 1% haste will net you one swing event. Now, under most circumstances, 1 swing event even after misses and glances, is more than 1 hit event in damage. When you mix in that a percentage of attacks are HS instead of hits, the value of haste inflates. I don't at current use any haste gear largely because it is poorly itemized, but come 2.4 I should be picking some up.
I do wonder how people average 5k attack power in a raid. I raid with a sapphire on (2112 base AP in zerker) with an enh shaman and the highest AP I have ever hit was 5280. I average over 4000 pretty cleanly but I need a WF proc with Zerker Call up to top 5k. I wonder where I am missing out on all this extra AP. Of the couple T6 instance drops I could still get, none represent a serious AP increase. 2112 is a decent start.
so with sunwell loot being released, what are people's thoughts on ArP vs. all the new haste gear available for 33/28.
I've just been going through some of the new 2.4 loot that has been found on the PTR - does it disturb anyone else that the best DPS shoulders would now seem to be druid gear? As in with intellect?
Demontooth Shoulderpads - Items - World of Warcraft
Demontooth Shoulderpads - Items - World of Warcraft
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Originally Posted by Korlong
I've just been going through some of the new 2.4 loot that has been found on the PTR - does it disturb anyone else that the best DPS shoulders would now seem to be druid gear? As in with intellect?
Demontooth Shoulderpads - Items - World of Warcraft |
For me personally, I am going to keep the tier 6 shoulders and grab the other t6 pieces from sunwell, combined that with the four best legs, head, chest and gloves (of which 3 are leather) seems to be the best setup for a slam build.
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Originally Posted by Bevz
I saw this aswell but Ive never been against wearing odd bits of of mail and leather even with the int on them. If its best in slot, its best in slot not much more to say.
For me personally, I am going to keep the tier 6 shoulders and grab the other t6 pieces from sunwell, combined that with the four best legs, head, chest and gloves (of which 3 are leather) seems to be the best setup for a slam build. |
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Originally Posted by Moogul
I think that the pauldrons of berserking are about equal. Taking the socket bonus into account (the leather ones have a blue socket so are less efficient), they come out fairly close, though it obviously depends on exactly how good haste is - I've still to see a convincing account of it's viability. Still, it's better than hit and I think it should balance out between both of them.
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Originally Posted by Bevz
Yeah until we see how the extra haste performs I think its just something of a bonus stat on the items, something similar to hit rating as you wouldn't really gem for it, same as you wouldnt really aim to get just the items with haste on them. If that makes sense :p
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I've been trying to compare haste to hit to find an acceptable comparison ratio.
As Grymm said, haste gives you an extra swing, rather than hit, and that swing has a chance to crit - however it also has a chance to miss, or be dodged or parried. Generally DPS warriors don't run with much expertise, but then ideally we're attacking from behind so parry shouldn't really be an issue.
So, if we say 1 unit is the damage from an extra hit, then the extra swing from haste will give us (1 + 1*crit - 1*dodge - 1*miss) damage, where crit, dodge, miss are your respective chances (in decimal form - eg. 0.35 for 35% crit).
In order for haste to be better than hit, you need crit > dodge + miss, where miss is going to be the default boss miss chance (0.27 or something?) minus your +hit. Dodge change is 0.056 I think for bosses, so you get something like:
crit > 0.056 + 0.27 - hit
crit + hit > 0.326
So that is, if you have total crit and plus hit of more than 32.6% (which I assume *every* dps warrior will have), then haste is generally going to be better than hit. The exact ratio will vary, but the more crit and hit you have the better haste will be.
Note: This is a very simplified form of the equation - it doesn't take into account haste you already have (stacking haste should increase the value of hit compared to additional haste), it doesnt account for expertise (I assumed 0), and it also doesn't take into account the harder to define aspects of hit and haste (ie. hit should give more PPM procs, haste (as far as I understand it) won't. They'll also affect rage generation in different ways (whilst the overall rage gain will be the same, the 'smoothness' of rage generation won't be).
For 2H warriors (I'm DW), I'm assuming you'll be capped already so this comparison is rather pointless, it's rather clear that haste is better than hit once you have 9%.
Edit: Also I assumed a 2x modifier for crit damage, if you run with [Relentless Earthstorm Diamond] (I do), then that will also increase the value of haste in relation to hit.
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Originally Posted by Grymm
I do wonder how people average 5k attack power in a raid. I raid with a sapphire on (2112 base AP in zerker) with an enh shaman and the highest AP I have ever hit was 5280. I average over 4000 pretty cleanly but I need a WF proc with Zerker Call up to top 5k. I wonder where I am missing out on all this extra AP. Of the couple T6 instance drops I could still get, none represent a serious AP increase. 2112 is a decent start.
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str: 643 (applied)
2/2 imp soe totem: 99str ~> 218ap
20str food: 20str ~> 44ap
BoM: 220ap ~> 242ap
trueshot aura: 125ap ~> 137ap
5/5 imp hunter's mark: 440ap ~> 484ap
5/5 imp motw: 19str ~> 42ap
unleashed rage: (ap x .1) (apply last)
kings: (str x .1) ~> 64.3 ~> 238ap
5/5 imp bshout (trinket): 468ap ~> 515ap
2112+ 218+ 44+ 242+ 137+ 484+ 42+ 238+ 515= 4032 (apply UR) = 4435
This is neglecting EW from a survival hunter, and assumes imp HM from a marksman hunter. This also assumes 5/5 imp zerk stance. Personally I've seen 4k sustained, but I'd be curious to know what sort of makeup achieves 5k.
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Originally Posted by Mjollnir
trueshot aura: 125ap ~> 137ap.
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Come Death Knights the solution will be 2 dedicated melee/buff groups... too many ferals get stuck in the tank group when dpsing as it is. Or hunters someplace else. 
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Originally Posted by Moogul
How many guilds raid with a marksmanship hunter in the melee group? It's hard enough fitting in the rogues, dps warrior, enh shaman, feral druid, ret paladin already.
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Originally Posted by Moogul
How many guilds raid with a marksmanship hunter in the melee group? It's hard enough fitting in the rogues, dps warrior, enh shaman, feral druid, ret paladin already.
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Originally Posted by Grymm
Thus, getting as much damage per usage actually improves your damage/aggro ratio. Thus, a slower weapon, while costing proportionately more rage, is my preference.
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Let's take threat out of the equation for a minute. If you're swinging a faster weapon, does the extra Heroic Strike damage even make up for the decreased Whirlwind damage? If it doesn't then we can conclude that a slower weapon is ALWAYS better regardless of any threat calculations. Only if the faster weapon proves to do more damage do we even need to think about threat.
Is there any way to do the maths to get at this question? I'm not the most inclined number cruncher, nor do I even know the threat formulas.
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Originally Posted by Malorneecs
Thanks Grymm, your comments were really insightful. However, although it is very clear that your damage/threat ratio is higher with a slower MH, this is sort of the obvious conclusion. The more significant question in this debate is whether that matters or not. If you do more total damage with a fast OH rogue sword but never become threat capped, then damage/threat ratio becomes immaterial.
Let's take threat out of the equation for a minute. If you're swinging a faster weapon, does the extra Heroic Strike damage even make up for the decreased Whirlwind damage? If it doesn't then we can conclude that a slower weapon is ALWAYS better regardless of any threat calculations. Only if the faster weapon proves to do more damage do we even need to think about threat. Is there any way to do the maths to get at this question? I'm not the most inclined number cruncher, nor do I even know the threat formulas. |
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Originally Posted by Mjollnir
Using your base stats on armory:
str: 643 (applied) 2/2 imp soe totem: 99str ~> 218ap 20str food: 20str ~> 44ap BoM: 220ap ~> 242ap trueshot aura: 125ap ~> 137ap 5/5 imp hunter's mark: 440ap ~> 484ap 5/5 imp motw: 19str ~> 42ap unleashed rage: (ap x .1) (apply last) kings: (str x .1) ~> 64.3 ~> 238ap 5/5 imp bshout (trinket): 468ap ~> 515ap 2112+ 218+ 44+ 242+ 137+ 484+ 42+ 238+ 515= 4032 (apply UR) = 4435 This is neglecting EW from a survival hunter, and assumes imp HM from a marksman hunter. This also assumes 5/5 imp zerk stance. Personally I've seen 4k sustained, but I'd be curious to know what sort of makeup achieves 5k. |
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Originally Posted by Azonos
Hey all, I've been having a lot of trouble with my crit rate on boss fights being much lower than what is reported in my character sheet for 25 man boss fights. I was hoping someone here might have an idea why. I have most of the best gear available to me now, and raid as 33/28/0 (currently the only DPS warrior in the guild). My character sheet has me at just below 32% to crit in zerker stance raid buffed without a feral. Most WWS reports and recount meters have been showing me between 20%-25% crit rate for boss fights for quite a while now (at least 6 weeks). Even with a feral, my crit rate has been coming through between 5%-10% lower than my character sheet.
It had been suggested that not being hit capped is hurting my crit rate so I have been using the hit food lately, but that has not changed anything. A final note, this only seems to be happening in BT / Hyjal. I've done a few ZA runs and my crit rate has been relatively consistent with my character sheet there. Any ideas would be greatly appreciated! |
You might want to link to your WWS so we can check, but my thoughts would either be bad luck (unlikely over that long) or you're not attacking the boss from behind.
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Originally Posted by Moogul
Yeah, that's pretty similar to how I approach haste, though just because I don't actively aim for +hit, doesn't mean I discount it completely.
I've been trying to compare haste to hit to find an acceptable comparison ratio. As Grymm said, haste gives you an extra swing, rather than hit, and that swing has a chance to crit - however it also has a chance to miss, or be dodged or parried. Generally DPS warriors don't run with much expertise, but then ideally we're attacking from behind so parry shouldn't really be an issue. So, if we say 1 unit is the damage from an extra hit, then the extra swing from haste will give us (1 + 1*crit - 1*dodge - 1*miss) damage, where crit, dodge, miss are your respective chances (in decimal form - eg. 0.35 for 35% crit). In order for haste to be better than hit, you need crit > dodge + miss, where miss is going to be the default boss miss chance (0.27 or something?) minus your +hit. Dodge change is 0.056 I think for bosses, so you get something like: crit > 0.056 + 0.27 - hit crit + hit > 0.326 So that is, if you have total crit and plus hit of more than 32.6% (which I assume *every* dps warrior will have), then haste is generally going to be better than hit. The exact ratio will vary, but the more crit and hit you have the better haste will be. Note: This is a very simplified form of the equation - it doesn't take into account haste you already have (stacking haste should increase the value of hit compared to additional haste), it doesnt account for expertise (I assumed 0), and it also doesn't take into account the harder to define aspects of hit and haste (ie. hit should give more PPM procs, haste (as far as I understand it) won't. They'll also affect rage generation in different ways (whilst the overall rage gain will be the same, the 'smoothness' of rage generation won't be). For 2H warriors (I'm DW), I'm assuming you'll be capped already so this comparison is rather pointless, it's rather clear that haste is better than hit once you have 9%. Edit: Also I assumed a 2x modifier for crit damage, if you run with [Relentless Earthstorm Diamond] (I do), then that will also increase the value of haste in relation to hit. |
In that situation 1% hit would give me a small amount of rage (assuming it gives me an off-hand hit), versus 1% haste giving me another heroic strike. Just another factor to compare, it's all very complicated with how streaky the rage mechanic is and what group buffs you typically get when choosing how to gear.
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
I am under the impression that Teron is one of the worst fights you can use to guage gear effectiveness on as a Warrior. It's a good fight to benchmark maximum DPS posibilities, but only because the rage is almost free flowing and without pause, so a hit deficiency or the benefits of haste won't really show up as much. The majority of fights are nowhere near that. Patchwerk was by far the best test, but there aren't really any fights like that at the moment. Maybe we will have a chance to do it again come the expansion if they don't change that fight too much.
Last edited by Graul : 02/16/08 at 8:16 AM.
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Originally Posted by Graul
I am under the impression that Teron is one of the worst fights you can use to guage gear effectiveness on as a Warrior. It's a good fight to benchmark maximum DPS posibilities, but only because the rage is almost free flowing and without pause, so a hit deficiency or the benefits of haste won't really show up as much. The majority of fights are nowhere near that. Patchwerk was by far the best test, but there aren't really any fights like that at the moment. Maybe we will have a chance to do it again come the expansion if they don't change that fight too much.
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All the little extra things like heroic strike rates, smoothness of rage gain, optimal execute spam etc. all complicate the accurate evaluation of haste - my brief maths above was purely to look at the base white damage, to at least have a starting point which we can then build on qualitatively.
In a theoretical infinte rage scenario, the value of hit drops to almost nothing (as it will only affect offhand white swings), whilst the value of haste will raise (as the damage of each mainhand hit is higher due to heroic strike bonus damage and the reduced miss chance.
what do you mean by optimal execute spam?
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Originally Posted by rhoxx
what do you mean by optimal execute spam?
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It's not the kind of thing you can really put numbers to easily, but it helps.
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Originally Posted by Mjollnir
WF totem. The biggest external factor in warrior dps, gets the best mileage out of a slower weapon. Napkin math I once did put the benefit of WF of arms compared to fury at 4:3.. mainly due to weapon speed. I'd need to dig that up though.. it might be on forums I no longer have access to
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Originally Posted by Moogul
I'm referring to the ability to generate rage for an execute every global cooldown (1.5 seconds). Having to wait more than 1.5 seconds is not optimal, since excess rage is converted to damage at a lower rate than the initial hit. With slower weapons, haste helps get the speed of your MH down to 1.5 so that it's generating enough rage each hit. Also, it helps your offhand - fast offhands generally don't generate enough rage for an execute on their hit, so you want a slow offhand, but then haste helps smooth out the rage from that.
It's not the kind of thing you can really put numbers to easily, but it helps. |
You suggest an opposing senario? Generate only what you need for Execute- burn the rest off with HStrike, while keeping BT/WW going?
Edit: @ Liar: I'll look into getting access.
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Originally Posted by Apfelkäse
Anyone else respeccing to Jewelcrafting? I am atleast ^^ Love the new neck, I'm dropping Mining for Jewelcrafting
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I did that for the eng helms. It was the right choice but I *hate* not being a miner. So much money I could have made and saved.
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
bad raid boss crit rate
Hey all, I've been having a lot of trouble with my crit rate on boss fights being much lower than what is reported in my character sheet for 25 man boss fights. I was hoping someone here might have an idea why. I have most of the best gear available to me now, and raid as 33/28/0 (currently the only DPS warrior in the guild). My character sheet has me at just below 32% to crit in zerker stance raid buffed without a feral. Most WWS reports and recount meters have been showing me between 20%-25% crit rate for boss fights for quite a while now (at least 6 weeks). Even with a feral, my crit rate has been coming through between 5%-10% lower than my character sheet.
It had been suggested that not being hit capped is hurting my crit rate so I have been using the hit food lately, but that has not changed anything. A final note, this only seems to be happening in BT / Hyjal. I've done a few ZA runs and my crit rate has been relatively consistent with my character sheet there. Any ideas would be greatly appreciated!
It had been suggested that not being hit capped is hurting my crit rate so I have been using the hit food lately, but that has not changed anything. A final note, this only seems to be happening in BT / Hyjal. I've done a few ZA runs and my crit rate has been relatively consistent with my character sheet there. Any ideas would be greatly appreciated!
Last edited by Azonos : 02/14/08 at 3:47 PM.
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Originally Posted by Malorneecs
I think this is a really important point which has been largely ignored. While total DPS is important, we also need to consider total threat. Assuming you had enough rage to use BT and WW every time they're up (and keep your shout and rampage up) additional hits from haste will increase your white damage AND your HS damage (since you’ll have extra rage to dump), thereby increasing threat. It seems to me that as HS counts for a higher and higher percent of your total damage, while your theoretical DPS increases, you will become limited by threat.
Also, on a similar note, fast or slow MH? A slow MH will clearly increase your WW damage, but a fast MH will increase your HS damage since HS costs less rage when used with a faster weapon-->HS with a slow 2 hander costs 15 (or 12) PLUS the rage you WOULD have gotten for the foregone white hit (maybe 30 for a 2 hander...a total of 45 rage for 208 damage). If you're swinging a 1.5 second rogue off-hand-type weapon, your HS will only cost 15+maybe 10 rage for the same 208 bonus damage. Anyway, I think both of these issues (haste and slow vs. fast MH) are both somewhat related as they both pertain to the concept of being threat capped (something that doesn't show on a spreadsheet) as the percentage of your total damage done by HS steadily increases. Thoughts on how to measure this? Gut feelings? |
When evaluting haste, I always take it as a ratio to hit rating as the perform similarly. Over a 100 swing timed period, 1% hit will net you one weapon damage. 1% haste will net you one swing event. Now, under most circumstances, 1 swing event even after misses and glances, is more than 1 hit event in damage. When you mix in that a percentage of attacks are HS instead of hits, the value of haste inflates. I don't at current use any haste gear largely because it is poorly itemized, but come 2.4 I should be picking some up.
I do wonder how people average 5k attack power in a raid. I raid with a sapphire on (2112 base AP in zerker) with an enh shaman and the highest AP I have ever hit was 5280. I average over 4000 pretty cleanly but I need a WF proc with Zerker Call up to top 5k. I wonder where I am missing out on all this extra AP. Of the couple T6 instance drops I could still get, none represent a serious AP increase. 2112 is a decent start.
so with sunwell loot being released, what are people's thoughts on ArP vs. all the new haste gear available for 33/28.
I've just been going through some of the new 2.4 loot that has been found on the PTR - does it disturb anyone else that the best DPS shoulders would now seem to be druid gear? As in with intellect?
Demontooth Shoulderpads - Items - World of Warcraft
Demontooth Shoulderpads - Items - World of Warcraft
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Originally Posted by Korlong
I've just been going through some of the new 2.4 loot that has been found on the PTR - does it disturb anyone else that the best DPS shoulders would now seem to be druid gear? As in with intellect?
Demontooth Shoulderpads - Items - World of Warcraft |
For me personally, I am going to keep the tier 6 shoulders and grab the other t6 pieces from sunwell, combined that with the four best legs, head, chest and gloves (of which 3 are leather) seems to be the best setup for a slam build.
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Originally Posted by Bevz
I saw this aswell but Ive never been against wearing odd bits of of mail and leather even with the int on them. If its best in slot, its best in slot not much more to say.
For me personally, I am going to keep the tier 6 shoulders and grab the other t6 pieces from sunwell, combined that with the four best legs, head, chest and gloves (of which 3 are leather) seems to be the best setup for a slam build. |
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Originally Posted by Moogul
I think that the pauldrons of berserking are about equal. Taking the socket bonus into account (the leather ones have a blue socket so are less efficient), they come out fairly close, though it obviously depends on exactly how good haste is - I've still to see a convincing account of it's viability. Still, it's better than hit and I think it should balance out between both of them.
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Originally Posted by Bevz
Yeah until we see how the extra haste performs I think its just something of a bonus stat on the items, something similar to hit rating as you wouldn't really gem for it, same as you wouldnt really aim to get just the items with haste on them. If that makes sense :p
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I've been trying to compare haste to hit to find an acceptable comparison ratio.
As Grymm said, haste gives you an extra swing, rather than hit, and that swing has a chance to crit - however it also has a chance to miss, or be dodged or parried. Generally DPS warriors don't run with much expertise, but then ideally we're attacking from behind so parry shouldn't really be an issue.
So, if we say 1 unit is the damage from an extra hit, then the extra swing from haste will give us (1 + 1*crit - 1*dodge - 1*miss) damage, where crit, dodge, miss are your respective chances (in decimal form - eg. 0.35 for 35% crit).
In order for haste to be better than hit, you need crit > dodge + miss, where miss is going to be the default boss miss chance (0.27 or something?) minus your +hit. Dodge change is 0.056 I think for bosses, so you get something like:
crit > 0.056 + 0.27 - hit
crit + hit > 0.326
So that is, if you have total crit and plus hit of more than 32.6% (which I assume *every* dps warrior will have), then haste is generally going to be better than hit. The exact ratio will vary, but the more crit and hit you have the better haste will be.
Note: This is a very simplified form of the equation - it doesn't take into account haste you already have (stacking haste should increase the value of hit compared to additional haste), it doesnt account for expertise (I assumed 0), and it also doesn't take into account the harder to define aspects of hit and haste (ie. hit should give more PPM procs, haste (as far as I understand it) won't. They'll also affect rage generation in different ways (whilst the overall rage gain will be the same, the 'smoothness' of rage generation won't be).
For 2H warriors (I'm DW), I'm assuming you'll be capped already so this comparison is rather pointless, it's rather clear that haste is better than hit once you have 9%.
Edit: Also I assumed a 2x modifier for crit damage, if you run with [Relentless Earthstorm Diamond] (I do), then that will also increase the value of haste in relation to hit.
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Originally Posted by Grymm
I do wonder how people average 5k attack power in a raid. I raid with a sapphire on (2112 base AP in zerker) with an enh shaman and the highest AP I have ever hit was 5280. I average over 4000 pretty cleanly but I need a WF proc with Zerker Call up to top 5k. I wonder where I am missing out on all this extra AP. Of the couple T6 instance drops I could still get, none represent a serious AP increase. 2112 is a decent start.
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str: 643 (applied)
2/2 imp soe totem: 99str ~> 218ap
20str food: 20str ~> 44ap
BoM: 220ap ~> 242ap
trueshot aura: 125ap ~> 137ap
5/5 imp hunter's mark: 440ap ~> 484ap
5/5 imp motw: 19str ~> 42ap
unleashed rage: (ap x .1) (apply last)
kings: (str x .1) ~> 64.3 ~> 238ap
5/5 imp bshout (trinket): 468ap ~> 515ap
2112+ 218+ 44+ 242+ 137+ 484+ 42+ 238+ 515= 4032 (apply UR) = 4435
This is neglecting EW from a survival hunter, and assumes imp HM from a marksman hunter. This also assumes 5/5 imp zerk stance. Personally I've seen 4k sustained, but I'd be curious to know what sort of makeup achieves 5k.
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Originally Posted by Mjollnir
trueshot aura: 125ap ~> 137ap.
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Come Death Knights the solution will be 2 dedicated melee/buff groups... too many ferals get stuck in the tank group when dpsing as it is. Or hunters someplace else.
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Originally Posted by Moogul
How many guilds raid with a marksmanship hunter in the melee group? It's hard enough fitting in the rogues, dps warrior, enh shaman, feral druid, ret paladin already.
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Originally Posted by Moogul
How many guilds raid with a marksmanship hunter in the melee group? It's hard enough fitting in the rogues, dps warrior, enh shaman, feral druid, ret paladin already.
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Originally Posted by Grymm
Thus, getting as much damage per usage actually improves your damage/aggro ratio. Thus, a slower weapon, while costing proportionately more rage, is my preference.
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Let's take threat out of the equation for a minute. If you're swinging a faster weapon, does the extra Heroic Strike damage even make up for the decreased Whirlwind damage? If it doesn't then we can conclude that a slower weapon is ALWAYS better regardless of any threat calculations. Only if the faster weapon proves to do more damage do we even need to think about threat.
Is there any way to do the maths to get at this question? I'm not the most inclined number cruncher, nor do I even know the threat formulas.
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Originally Posted by Malorneecs
Thanks Grymm, your comments were really insightful. However, although it is very clear that your damage/threat ratio is higher with a slower MH, this is sort of the obvious conclusion. The more significant question in this debate is whether that matters or not. If you do more total damage with a fast OH rogue sword but never become threat capped, then damage/threat ratio becomes immaterial.
Let's take threat out of the equation for a minute. If you're swinging a faster weapon, does the extra Heroic Strike damage even make up for the decreased Whirlwind damage? If it doesn't then we can conclude that a slower weapon is ALWAYS better regardless of any threat calculations. Only if the faster weapon proves to do more damage do we even need to think about threat. Is there any way to do the maths to get at this question? I'm not the most inclined number cruncher, nor do I even know the threat formulas. |
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Originally Posted by Mjollnir
Using your base stats on armory:
str: 643 (applied) 2/2 imp soe totem: 99str ~> 218ap 20str food: 20str ~> 44ap BoM: 220ap ~> 242ap trueshot aura: 125ap ~> 137ap 5/5 imp hunter's mark: 440ap ~> 484ap 5/5 imp motw: 19str ~> 42ap unleashed rage: (ap x .1) (apply last) kings: (str x .1) ~> 64.3 ~> 238ap 5/5 imp bshout (trinket): 468ap ~> 515ap 2112+ 218+ 44+ 242+ 137+ 484+ 42+ 238+ 515= 4032 (apply UR) = 4435 This is neglecting EW from a survival hunter, and assumes imp HM from a marksman hunter. This also assumes 5/5 imp zerk stance. Personally I've seen 4k sustained, but I'd be curious to know what sort of makeup achieves 5k. |
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Originally Posted by Azonos
Hey all, I've been having a lot of trouble with my crit rate on boss fights being much lower than what is reported in my character sheet for 25 man boss fights. I was hoping someone here might have an idea why. I have most of the best gear available to me now, and raid as 33/28/0 (currently the only DPS warrior in the guild). My character sheet has me at just below 32% to crit in zerker stance raid buffed without a feral. Most WWS reports and recount meters have been showing me between 20%-25% crit rate for boss fights for quite a while now (at least 6 weeks). Even with a feral, my crit rate has been coming through between 5%-10% lower than my character sheet.
It had been suggested that not being hit capped is hurting my crit rate so I have been using the hit food lately, but that has not changed anything. A final note, this only seems to be happening in BT / Hyjal. I've done a few ZA runs and my crit rate has been relatively consistent with my character sheet there. Any ideas would be greatly appreciated! |
You might want to link to your WWS so we can check, but my thoughts would either be bad luck (unlikely over that long) or you're not attacking the boss from behind.
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Originally Posted by Moogul
Yeah, that's pretty similar to how I approach haste, though just because I don't actively aim for +hit, doesn't mean I discount it completely.
I've been trying to compare haste to hit to find an acceptable comparison ratio. As Grymm said, haste gives you an extra swing, rather than hit, and that swing has a chance to crit - however it also has a chance to miss, or be dodged or parried. Generally DPS warriors don't run with much expertise, but then ideally we're attacking from behind so parry shouldn't really be an issue. So, if we say 1 unit is the damage from an extra hit, then the extra swing from haste will give us (1 + 1*crit - 1*dodge - 1*miss) damage, where crit, dodge, miss are your respective chances (in decimal form - eg. 0.35 for 35% crit). In order for haste to be better than hit, you need crit > dodge + miss, where miss is going to be the default boss miss chance (0.27 or something?) minus your +hit. Dodge change is 0.056 I think for bosses, so you get something like: crit > 0.056 + 0.27 - hit crit + hit > 0.326 So that is, if you have total crit and plus hit of more than 32.6% (which I assume *every* dps warrior will have), then haste is generally going to be better than hit. The exact ratio will vary, but the more crit and hit you have the better haste will be. Note: This is a very simplified form of the equation - it doesn't take into account haste you already have (stacking haste should increase the value of hit compared to additional haste), it doesnt account for expertise (I assumed 0), and it also doesn't take into account the harder to define aspects of hit and haste (ie. hit should give more PPM procs, haste (as far as I understand it) won't. They'll also affect rage generation in different ways (whilst the overall rage gain will be the same, the 'smoothness' of rage generation won't be). For 2H warriors (I'm DW), I'm assuming you'll be capped already so this comparison is rather pointless, it's rather clear that haste is better than hit once you have 9%. Edit: Also I assumed a 2x modifier for crit damage, if you run with [Relentless Earthstorm Diamond] (I do), then that will also increase the value of haste in relation to hit. |
In that situation 1% hit would give me a small amount of rage (assuming it gives me an off-hand hit), versus 1% haste giving me another heroic strike. Just another factor to compare, it's all very complicated with how streaky the rage mechanic is and what group buffs you typically get when choosing how to gear.
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
I am under the impression that Teron is one of the worst fights you can use to guage gear effectiveness on as a Warrior. It's a good fight to benchmark maximum DPS posibilities, but only because the rage is almost free flowing and without pause, so a hit deficiency or the benefits of haste won't really show up as much. The majority of fights are nowhere near that. Patchwerk was by far the best test, but there aren't really any fights like that at the moment. Maybe we will have a chance to do it again come the expansion if they don't change that fight too much.
Last edited by Graul : 02/16/08 at 8:16 AM.
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Originally Posted by Graul
I am under the impression that Teron is one of the worst fights you can use to guage gear effectiveness on as a Warrior. It's a good fight to benchmark maximum DPS posibilities, but only because the rage is almost free flowing and without pause, so a hit deficiency or the benefits of haste won't really show up as much. The majority of fights are nowhere near that. Patchwerk was by far the best test, but there aren't really any fights like that at the moment. Maybe we will have a chance to do it again come the expansion if they don't change that fight too much.
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All the little extra things like heroic strike rates, smoothness of rage gain, optimal execute spam etc. all complicate the accurate evaluation of haste - my brief maths above was purely to look at the base white damage, to at least have a starting point which we can then build on qualitatively.
In a theoretical infinte rage scenario, the value of hit drops to almost nothing (as it will only affect offhand white swings), whilst the value of haste will raise (as the damage of each mainhand hit is higher due to heroic strike bonus damage and the reduced miss chance.
what do you mean by optimal execute spam?
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Originally Posted by rhoxx
what do you mean by optimal execute spam?
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It's not the kind of thing you can really put numbers to easily, but it helps.
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Originally Posted by Mjollnir
WF totem. The biggest external factor in warrior dps, gets the best mileage out of a slower weapon. Napkin math I once did put the benefit of WF of arms compared to fury at 4:3.. mainly due to weapon speed. I'd need to dig that up though.. it might be on forums I no longer have access to
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Originally Posted by Moogul
I'm referring to the ability to generate rage for an execute every global cooldown (1.5 seconds). Having to wait more than 1.5 seconds is not optimal, since excess rage is converted to damage at a lower rate than the initial hit. With slower weapons, haste helps get the speed of your MH down to 1.5 so that it's generating enough rage each hit. Also, it helps your offhand - fast offhands generally don't generate enough rage for an execute on their hit, so you want a slow offhand, but then haste helps smooth out the rage from that.
It's not the kind of thing you can really put numbers to easily, but it helps. |
You suggest an opposing senario? Generate only what you need for Execute- burn the rest off with HStrike, while keeping BT/WW going?
Edit: @ Liar: I'll look into getting access.
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Originally Posted by Mjollnir
Interesting... when I still played my main, as fury, I would aim to generate as much rage as possible during execute range in order to get the excess to contribute to dps. The whole goal was to see 90-100rage Executes top off above 7k dmg every GCD if possible. (Which happened *fairly* often with trink/zerk/flurry/haste pot/recklessness/drums/haste proc/WF/lust if not already used)
You suggest an opposing senario? Generate only what you need for Execute- burn the rest off with HStrike, while keeping BT/WW going? Edit: @ Liar: I'll look into getting access. |
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Originally Posted by Darkrenown
Whoever mentioned critcap to you is wrong, it's ~(45%+ your hit) from behind.
You might want to link to your WWS so we can check, but my thoughts would either be bad luck (unlikely over that long) or you're not attacking the boss from behind. |
Azonos - WWS
Azgalor and Archimonde kills are in that report too, and my crit rate was painfully low on all attacks here, although I did roll well on ww's for this report, only outta 5 though! 22% on MS, 27% on slam, 31% on white attacks, all well below the 37% that I should have. And yes, I am always attacking from behind. :P
[Warrior] Future of the *Fury* DPS Warrior
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Originally Posted by Moogul
What I'm suggesting is that 2x15rage executes are better damage than 1x30 rage execute, or to take it an extreme, 6x15rage executes are far better than 1x90 rage execute. If you compare the ratio 15rage : Execute base damage, you'll find that you get a lot more bang for your buck than the extra rage over the 15. 'Saving' rage for executes is not worth it, you should do your full cycle until 19%, and then start hammering Execute as soon as it lights up each GCD. If you manage to spike to over 30rage, you should probably use bloodthirst rather than execute that GCD, as with decent levels of gear bloodthirst is better than a 30+ rage execute.
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I'm curious- how do fury warriors justify their 25man raid slots these days? The only fury warriors I've ran into are diehard guildies of guilds that have been around since pre-bc. Thier slot isn't won with talent or mathmatical backing- but off of loyalty and consistency.
It takes no skill to PvP as MS- a solid 2H and you are a force to be reckoned with. Now, raiding has taken the same turn with BF alone being too great an asset with as little as 5-6 physical dps present.
I've always viewed the fury warrior as a group buffing, rogue-like DPSer but with a 20% burn niche. Where's the benefit in 2 in a raid (Spriests are 'niche' but highly useful in quantity. Feral druids arguably 'niche' but also highly useful in quantity. 2 Enh shams are possible with 1 melee group and 1 tanking group (threat)...) much less bringing a single one when you have BF you're missing out on?
Short of this being 'QQ': What is the [Warrior] Future of the *Fury* DPS Warrior?
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Originally Posted by Mjollnir
Thier slot isn't won with talent or mathmatical backing- but off of loyalty and consistency.
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Edited onPatch 2.3.3
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Originally Posted by Machinator
Im not sure what you mean by that exactly, are you saying you would bring a bad MS over a good fury for the debuff? If so, would'nt that mean that blizzard messed up and either MS needs to be nerfed or Fury buffed?
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Edit: In some cases, actually, yes. Just having BF active outweighs the difference in personal DPS by signification margins. Assuming arms does 80% of fury's DPS (80% is very conservative), and assuming a baseline 1k DPS by all other DPSers:
1: 1k ~> 1040
2: 1k ~> 1040
3: 1k ~> 1040
4: 1k ~> 1040
5: 1k ~> 1040
6(you) 800
TOTAL: 6k
Obviously 1k from each, plus 1k from yourself if you were fury yields the same results. Keep in mind you'll have 2 tanks (minimum) benefitting from BF, and usually some hunters + their pets to factor in as well... ya, if the BF debuffer knew how to stay alive, his personal DPS is rather insignificant. Just slap up the debuff and thanks for your service to your country. Assuming you do 80% of a similarly played/geared fury, just having 5 or so other physical dps present makes you far more attractive.
Last edited by Mjollnir : 02/16/08 at 2:22 PM.
Expertise nerf
Looks like the expertise racials don't stack anymore on PTR.
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Originally Posted by Kaoz
Looks like the expertise racials don't stack anymore on PTR.
|
|
Originally Posted by Mjollnir
I'm curious- how do fury warriors justify their 25man raid slots these days?
|
However, as you have pointed out, an Arms warrior brings all this and more, and well played arms warriors (From what I've read) do not lag behind fury much in personal dps. In this sense, if you're optimizing for raid dps, bring one arms warrior would be better than bringing one fury warrior.
In my guild, we have only one arms warrior, who mostly PvPs and doesn't raid regularly. It's not an option to take him to every raid, and so I get taken most of the time because a fury warrior is better than another rogue. Not taking at least 1 dps warrior of any kind is just awful - your melee group WANTS battle shout. A lot of people underestimate Battle shout, but talented with sapphire it's over 500 attack power. To get that much from Unleashed rage (which is also isnt quite up 100% of the time) you'd need 5000 attack power, which as has been discussed is basically out of reach barring trinkets+WF.
Now, I guess from a min-maxing point of view, it would make sense for me to spec arms instead, but when it comes down to it, I absolutely detest the playstyle of arms, and I find it completely boring in raids. Yes, that is a completely selfish reason, but when it comes down to it, I raid for fun, and for me, that is fury (or prot - I also really enjoy tanking and I regularly respec prot when we're low on tanks), but not arms. I don't feel bad about it because I'm generally in the top 5 on DPS, mostly top 3 except fights which really don't favour melee. On fights which do favour melee, I often reach first, particularly if they're warrior friendly (Akama, Solarian, etc.)
So, it comes down to this. A fury warrior is still an excellent use of a raid spot. An arms warrior is (perhaps) a slightly more excellent use of a raid spot. Use them appropriately.
Any of you plan to replace your [Sovereign Shadowsong Amethyst] with [Shifting Tanzanite] next patch? They're no longer unique. =D
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Originally Posted by Kaoz
Looks like the expertise racials don't stack anymore on PTR.
|
Oh yeah, that was the plan but I have done 4 or so SV runs without seeing it drop even once <_<
Going to be a nice DPS freebie in any case.
Going to be a nice DPS freebie in any case.
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Originally Posted by Emeraude
Any of you plan to replace your [Sovereign Shadowsong Amethyst] with [Shifting Tanzanite] next patch? They're no longer unique. =D
|
10 runs, no gem.
But it's definatly gonna be a nice no compromise way to gem gear, pure offensive stats while still getting the socket bonus :>
I'm wondering why it takes so long for blizz to hotfix colour of that gem...
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Originally Posted by Drwal
I'm wondering why it takes so long for blizz to hotfix colour of that gem...
|
I'm unable to search this thread for gem related discussion and needed some opinions/thoughts. For a DW/Fury build with roughly 32 crit/2100ap unbuffed, would it be better to go with 10 crit gems as much as possible or lean towards strength gems.
I've been under the impression that crit was the way to gem, but I'm seeing maxdps.com report strength providing more overall damage.
Also what are you opinions on maxdps.com? I used to find it quite reliable back in pre-TBC days however there are so many different options and opinions with gear now.
I've been under the impression that crit was the way to gem, but I'm seeing maxdps.com report strength providing more overall damage.
Also what are you opinions on maxdps.com? I used to find it quite reliable back in pre-TBC days however there are so many different options and opinions with gear now.
Strength and crit should be balanced against eachother. In practice it seems I get enough strength from my items' base stats to allow me to cram my sockets full of crit gems, which is what probably propagtes the idea of 'always gem crit!', but what you need is still based on the same SEP system as usual, regardless of it being about gems or items or buffs. In practice, sometimes subbing in some inscribed orange gems gives better results than straight out crit gemming.
I simply defer to the warrior spreadsheet for choosing what to gem and when.
I simply defer to the warrior spreadsheet for choosing what to gem and when.
Speaking of the warrior spreadsheet, it shows a MASSIVE difference in the benefit WF totems have on slower weapons rather than faster weapons (it's about double for my stats I think). MS warriors, therefore, benefit much more from this totem than DW fury warriors do.
I'm glad someone mentioned this because it relates to my question as to whether a DW fury warrior wants a fast or slow MH. A slower MH will definitely deal more damage from WF, and I'm now adding that to my calculus. However, and I don't think this is too related to total DPS, what drives my crazy now (I'm currently MS spec'd) is all the "wasted rage" I have from WF procs--when they crit, I soar up to 100 rage every time it seems :P
Another thing that relates to this discussion is the idea of "optimal executes." Clearly faster weapons are better in this case. Man this is tricky...
(BTW, on this note, do MS warriors even find it optimal to use Execute over Slam when a boss is under 20%? I mean when I’m trying to burn down a boss in the last 20%, I do NOT execute spam, I simply replace Mortal Strike with Execute in my cycle—that is I continue to use Slam after every hit).
Pros of a slow MH:
Higher WW damage.
More Added damage from WF totem.
More added damage from Impale (applies only to WW and Heroic Strike).
Probably less threat intensive since Heroic Strike isn’t a major source of damage.
Cons of a slow MH:
More expensive Heroic Strikes, therefore total Heroic Strike damage is decreased.
Might not be "execute optimal" (especially when paired with a slow OH, which by the way, I’m always looking to get—besides for execute phase, a slow OH is ALWAYS better it seems to me).
Anyway, since I'm used to consistently raiding with an enhancement sham, I'm going to conclude that DW fury warriors should roll with slower MH weapons. I still haven't seen any numbers that show this to do more damage. However, when you take threat into account, faster weapons look even uglier.
Again, if anyone can get the maths on Heroic Strike threat and the other relevant damage comparisons, that would be excellent!
I'm glad someone mentioned this because it relates to my question as to whether a DW fury warrior wants a fast or slow MH. A slower MH will definitely deal more damage from WF, and I'm now adding that to my calculus. However, and I don't think this is too related to total DPS, what drives my crazy now (I'm currently MS spec'd) is all the "wasted rage" I have from WF procs--when they crit, I soar up to 100 rage every time it seems :P
Another thing that relates to this discussion is the idea of "optimal executes." Clearly faster weapons are better in this case. Man this is tricky...
(BTW, on this note, do MS warriors even find it optimal to use Execute over Slam when a boss is under 20%? I mean when I’m trying to burn down a boss in the last 20%, I do NOT execute spam, I simply replace Mortal Strike with Execute in my cycle—that is I continue to use Slam after every hit).
Pros of a slow MH:
Higher WW damage.
More Added damage from WF totem.
More added damage from Impale (applies only to WW and Heroic Strike).
Probably less threat intensive since Heroic Strike isn’t a major source of damage.
Cons of a slow MH:
More expensive Heroic Strikes, therefore total Heroic Strike damage is decreased.
Might not be "execute optimal" (especially when paired with a slow OH, which by the way, I’m always looking to get—besides for execute phase, a slow OH is ALWAYS better it seems to me).
Anyway, since I'm used to consistently raiding with an enhancement sham, I'm going to conclude that DW fury warriors should roll with slower MH weapons. I still haven't seen any numbers that show this to do more damage. However, when you take threat into account, faster weapons look even uglier.
Again, if anyone can get the maths on Heroic Strike threat and the other relevant damage comparisons, that would be excellent!
How exactly does a faster weapon have less WF dmg?
I'm not going to go into the argument that a 2H warrior should continue his cycle once he reaches 19% or execute, but if you're going to execute you should switch to duel wield.
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Originally Posted by Lambach
How exactly does a faster weapon have less WF dmg?
|
1. A higher % of MH swings would be HS, and not miss as much, raising the total chances to proc WF. We should be able to test this.
2. The sheet is broken somehow.
That first reason makes a lot of sense to me...that's always why I figured the spreadsheet's assessment was correct.
RE: Execute...I guess that would also depend on how much hit gear you wear on your 2H DPS gear. Either way you cut it though, I think we'd all agree that spamming Execute with a 2 hander is just a bad idea.
RE: Execute...I guess that would also depend on how much hit gear you wear on your 2H DPS gear. Either way you cut it though, I think we'd all agree that spamming Execute with a 2 hander is just a bad idea.
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Originally Posted by Malorneecs
That first reason makes a lot of sense to me...that's always why I figured the spreadsheet's assessment was correct.
RE: Execute...I guess that would also depend on how much hit gear you wear on your 2H DPS gear. Either way you cut it though, I think we'd all agree that spamming Execute with a 2 hander is just a bad idea. |
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Originally Posted by Machinator
There are only 2 ways that I can see the sheet giving slower weapons a benefit for WF.
1. A higher % of MH swings would be HS, and not miss as much, raising the total chances to proc WF. We should be able to test this. 2. The sheet is broken somehow. |
Also if #1 is correct then the conclusion that MS warriors benefit more from WF due to their slow weaponspeed than fury does is also incorrect in that MS are likely to do less heroic strikes. (Im not factoring in the other reasons why WF may be better for MS warriors here)
MS warrior can't miss (heroics are cutting off misses for dw too, so if u could hs every mh swing, u should get similar wf dmg).
I feel almost disrespectful for suggesting this, but it doesn't happen to be that the spreadsheet still counts yellow instants as valid swings to proc from? In that case slow weapons would probably have more total 'swings' relative to its average weapon speed and damage and as such would be more potent. Another thing like this would be if WF was modeled as a PPM mechanic instead of a flat proc-chance, but that also seems unlikely. Again, I realize these two things are rather 'duh, of course we modeled it right', but since the big difference seems to be such a mystery I felt I might as well suggest it.
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Originally Posted by Mjollnir
Interesting... when I still played my main, as fury, I would aim to generate as much rage as possible during execute range in order to get the excess to contribute to dps. The whole goal was to see 90-100rage Executes top off above 7k dmg every GCD if possible. (Which happened *fairly* often with trink/zerk/flurry/haste pot/recklessness/drums/haste proc/WF/lust if not already used)
You suggest an opposing senario? Generate only what you need for Execute- burn the rest off with HStrike, while keeping BT/WW going? Edit: @ Liar: I'll look into getting access. |
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Originally Posted by Darkrenown
Whoever mentioned critcap to you is wrong, it's ~(45%+ your hit) from behind.
You might want to link to your WWS so we can check, but my thoughts would either be bad luck (unlikely over that long) or you're not attacking the boss from behind. |
Azonos - WWS
Azgalor and Archimonde kills are in that report too, and my crit rate was painfully low on all attacks here, although I did roll well on ww's for this report, only outta 5 though! 22% on MS, 27% on slam, 31% on white attacks, all well below the 37% that I should have. And yes, I am always attacking from behind. :P
[Warrior] Future of the *Fury* DPS Warrior
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Originally Posted by Moogul
What I'm suggesting is that 2x15rage executes are better damage than 1x30 rage execute, or to take it an extreme, 6x15rage executes are far better than 1x90 rage execute. If you compare the ratio 15rage : Execute base damage, you'll find that you get a lot more bang for your buck than the extra rage over the 15. 'Saving' rage for executes is not worth it, you should do your full cycle until 19%, and then start hammering Execute as soon as it lights up each GCD. If you manage to spike to over 30rage, you should probably use bloodthirst rather than execute that GCD, as with decent levels of gear bloodthirst is better than a 30+ rage execute.
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I'm curious- how do fury warriors justify their 25man raid slots these days? The only fury warriors I've ran into are diehard guildies of guilds that have been around since pre-bc. Thier slot isn't won with talent or mathmatical backing- but off of loyalty and consistency.
It takes no skill to PvP as MS- a solid 2H and you are a force to be reckoned with. Now, raiding has taken the same turn with BF alone being too great an asset with as little as 5-6 physical dps present.
I've always viewed the fury warrior as a group buffing, rogue-like DPSer but with a 20% burn niche. Where's the benefit in 2 in a raid (Spriests are 'niche' but highly useful in quantity. Feral druids arguably 'niche' but also highly useful in quantity. 2 Enh shams are possible with 1 melee group and 1 tanking group (threat)...) much less bringing a single one when you have BF you're missing out on?
Short of this being 'QQ': What is the [Warrior] Future of the *Fury* DPS Warrior?
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Originally Posted by Mjollnir
Thier slot isn't won with talent or mathmatical backing- but off of loyalty and consistency.
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Edited onPatch 2.3.3
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Originally Posted by Machinator
Im not sure what you mean by that exactly, are you saying you would bring a bad MS over a good fury for the debuff? If so, would'nt that mean that blizzard messed up and either MS needs to be nerfed or Fury buffed?
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Edit: In some cases, actually, yes. Just having BF active outweighs the difference in personal DPS by signification margins. Assuming arms does 80% of fury's DPS (80% is very conservative), and assuming a baseline 1k DPS by all other DPSers:
1: 1k ~> 1040
2: 1k ~> 1040
3: 1k ~> 1040
4: 1k ~> 1040
5: 1k ~> 1040
6(you) 800
TOTAL: 6k
Obviously 1k from each, plus 1k from yourself if you were fury yields the same results. Keep in mind you'll have 2 tanks (minimum) benefitting from BF, and usually some hunters + their pets to factor in as well... ya, if the BF debuffer knew how to stay alive, his personal DPS is rather insignificant. Just slap up the debuff and thanks for your service to your country. Assuming you do 80% of a similarly played/geared fury, just having 5 or so other physical dps present makes you far more attractive.
Last edited by Mjollnir : 02/16/08 at 2:22 PM.
Expertise nerf
Looks like the expertise racials don't stack anymore on PTR.
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Originally Posted by Kaoz
Looks like the expertise racials don't stack anymore on PTR.
|
|
Originally Posted by Mjollnir
I'm curious- how do fury warriors justify their 25man raid slots these days?
|
However, as you have pointed out, an Arms warrior brings all this and more, and well played arms warriors (From what I've read) do not lag behind fury much in personal dps. In this sense, if you're optimizing for raid dps, bring one arms warrior would be better than bringing one fury warrior.
In my guild, we have only one arms warrior, who mostly PvPs and doesn't raid regularly. It's not an option to take him to every raid, and so I get taken most of the time because a fury warrior is better than another rogue. Not taking at least 1 dps warrior of any kind is just awful - your melee group WANTS battle shout. A lot of people underestimate Battle shout, but talented with sapphire it's over 500 attack power. To get that much from Unleashed rage (which is also isnt quite up 100% of the time) you'd need 5000 attack power, which as has been discussed is basically out of reach barring trinkets+WF.
Now, I guess from a min-maxing point of view, it would make sense for me to spec arms instead, but when it comes down to it, I absolutely detest the playstyle of arms, and I find it completely boring in raids. Yes, that is a completely selfish reason, but when it comes down to it, I raid for fun, and for me, that is fury (or prot - I also really enjoy tanking and I regularly respec prot when we're low on tanks), but not arms. I don't feel bad about it because I'm generally in the top 5 on DPS, mostly top 3 except fights which really don't favour melee. On fights which do favour melee, I often reach first, particularly if they're warrior friendly (Akama, Solarian, etc.)
So, it comes down to this. A fury warrior is still an excellent use of a raid spot. An arms warrior is (perhaps) a slightly more excellent use of a raid spot. Use them appropriately.
Any of you plan to replace your [Sovereign Shadowsong Amethyst] with [Shifting Tanzanite] next patch? They're no longer unique. =D
|
Originally Posted by Kaoz
Looks like the expertise racials don't stack anymore on PTR.
|
Oh yeah, that was the plan but I have done 4 or so SV runs without seeing it drop even once <_<
Going to be a nice DPS freebie in any case.
Going to be a nice DPS freebie in any case.
|
Originally Posted by Emeraude
Any of you plan to replace your [Sovereign Shadowsong Amethyst] with [Shifting Tanzanite] next patch? They're no longer unique. =D
|
10 runs, no gem.
But it's definatly gonna be a nice no compromise way to gem gear, pure offensive stats while still getting the socket bonus :>
I'm wondering why it takes so long for blizz to hotfix colour of that gem...
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Originally Posted by Drwal
I'm wondering why it takes so long for blizz to hotfix colour of that gem...
|
I'm unable to search this thread for gem related discussion and needed some opinions/thoughts. For a DW/Fury build with roughly 32 crit/2100ap unbuffed, would it be better to go with 10 crit gems as much as possible or lean towards strength gems.
I've been under the impression that crit was the way to gem, but I'm seeing maxdps.com report strength providing more overall damage.
Also what are you opinions on maxdps.com? I used to find it quite reliable back in pre-TBC days however there are so many different options and opinions with gear now.
I've been under the impression that crit was the way to gem, but I'm seeing maxdps.com report strength providing more overall damage.
Also what are you opinions on maxdps.com? I used to find it quite reliable back in pre-TBC days however there are so many different options and opinions with gear now.
Strength and crit should be balanced against eachother. In practice it seems I get enough strength from my items' base stats to allow me to cram my sockets full of crit gems, which is what probably propagtes the idea of 'always gem crit!', but what you need is still based on the same SEP system as usual, regardless of it being about gems or items or buffs. In practice, sometimes subbing in some inscribed orange gems gives better results than straight out crit gemming.
I simply defer to the warrior spreadsheet for choosing what to gem and when.
I simply defer to the warrior spreadsheet for choosing what to gem and when.
Speaking of the warrior spreadsheet, it shows a MASSIVE difference in the benefit WF totems have on slower weapons rather than faster weapons (it's about double for my stats I think). MS warriors, therefore, benefit much more from this totem than DW fury warriors do.
I'm glad someone mentioned this because it relates to my question as to whether a DW fury warrior wants a fast or slow MH. A slower MH will definitely deal more damage from WF, and I'm now adding that to my calculus. However, and I don't think this is too related to total DPS, what drives my crazy now (I'm currently MS spec'd) is all the "wasted rage" I have from WF procs--when they crit, I soar up to 100 rage every time it seems :P
Another thing that relates to this discussion is the idea of "optimal executes." Clearly faster weapons are better in this case. Man this is tricky...
(BTW, on this note, do MS warriors even find it optimal to use Execute over Slam when a boss is under 20%? I mean when I’m trying to burn down a boss in the last 20%, I do NOT execute spam, I simply replace Mortal Strike with Execute in my cycle—that is I continue to use Slam after every hit).
Pros of a slow MH:
Higher WW damage.
More Added damage from WF totem.
More added damage from Impale (applies only to WW and Heroic Strike).
Probably less threat intensive since Heroic Strike isn’t a major source of damage.
Cons of a slow MH:
More expensive Heroic Strikes, therefore total Heroic Strike damage is decreased.
Might not be "execute optimal" (especially when paired with a slow OH, which by the way, I’m always looking to get—besides for execute phase, a slow OH is ALWAYS better it seems to me).
Anyway, since I'm used to consistently raiding with an enhancement sham, I'm going to conclude that DW fury warriors should roll with slower MH weapons. I still haven't seen any numbers that show this to do more damage. However, when you take threat into account, faster weapons look even uglier.
Again, if anyone can get the maths on Heroic Strike threat and the other relevant damage comparisons, that would be excellent!
I'm glad someone mentioned this because it relates to my question as to whether a DW fury warrior wants a fast or slow MH. A slower MH will definitely deal more damage from WF, and I'm now adding that to my calculus. However, and I don't think this is too related to total DPS, what drives my crazy now (I'm currently MS spec'd) is all the "wasted rage" I have from WF procs--when they crit, I soar up to 100 rage every time it seems :P
Another thing that relates to this discussion is the idea of "optimal executes." Clearly faster weapons are better in this case. Man this is tricky...
(BTW, on this note, do MS warriors even find it optimal to use Execute over Slam when a boss is under 20%? I mean when I’m trying to burn down a boss in the last 20%, I do NOT execute spam, I simply replace Mortal Strike with Execute in my cycle—that is I continue to use Slam after every hit).
Pros of a slow MH:
Higher WW damage.
More Added damage from WF totem.
More added damage from Impale (applies only to WW and Heroic Strike).
Probably less threat intensive since Heroic Strike isn’t a major source of damage.
Cons of a slow MH:
More expensive Heroic Strikes, therefore total Heroic Strike damage is decreased.
Might not be "execute optimal" (especially when paired with a slow OH, which by the way, I’m always looking to get—besides for execute phase, a slow OH is ALWAYS better it seems to me).
Anyway, since I'm used to consistently raiding with an enhancement sham, I'm going to conclude that DW fury warriors should roll with slower MH weapons. I still haven't seen any numbers that show this to do more damage. However, when you take threat into account, faster weapons look even uglier.
Again, if anyone can get the maths on Heroic Strike threat and the other relevant damage comparisons, that would be excellent!
How exactly does a faster weapon have less WF dmg?
I'm not going to go into the argument that a 2H warrior should continue his cycle once he reaches 19% or execute, but if you're going to execute you should switch to duel wield.
|
Originally Posted by Lambach
How exactly does a faster weapon have less WF dmg?
|
1. A higher % of MH swings would be HS, and not miss as much, raising the total chances to proc WF. We should be able to test this.
2. The sheet is broken somehow.
That first reason makes a lot of sense to me...that's always why I figured the spreadsheet's assessment was correct.
RE: Execute...I guess that would also depend on how much hit gear you wear on your 2H DPS gear. Either way you cut it though, I think we'd all agree that spamming Execute with a 2 hander is just a bad idea.
RE: Execute...I guess that would also depend on how much hit gear you wear on your 2H DPS gear. Either way you cut it though, I think we'd all agree that spamming Execute with a 2 hander is just a bad idea.
|
Originally Posted by Malorneecs
That first reason makes a lot of sense to me...that's always why I figured the spreadsheet's assessment was correct.
RE: Execute...I guess that would also depend on how much hit gear you wear on your 2H DPS gear. Either way you cut it though, I think we'd all agree that spamming Execute with a 2 hander is just a bad idea. |
|
Originally Posted by Machinator
There are only 2 ways that I can see the sheet giving slower weapons a benefit for WF.
1. A higher % of MH swings would be HS, and not miss as much, raising the total chances to proc WF. We should be able to test this. 2. The sheet is broken somehow. |
Also if #1 is correct then the conclusion that MS warriors benefit more from WF due to their slow weaponspeed than fury does is also incorrect in that MS are likely to do less heroic strikes. (Im not factoring in the other reasons why WF may be better for MS warriors here)
MS warrior can't miss (heroics are cutting off misses for dw too, so if u could hs every mh swing, u should get similar wf dmg).
I feel almost disrespectful for suggesting this, but it doesn't happen to be that the spreadsheet still counts yellow instants as valid swings to proc from? In that case slow weapons would probably have more total 'swings' relative to its average weapon speed and damage and as such would be more potent. Another thing like this would be if WF was modeled as a PPM mechanic instead of a flat proc-chance, but that also seems unlikely. Again, I realize these two things are rather 'duh, of course we modeled it right', but since the big difference seems to be such a mystery I felt I might as well suggest it.
Human Racial
Confirmed that the Human Passive Racial no longer double stacks if you use a mace/sword.
This opens up a lot of possiblities for human warriors who were up until now rather dead locked into a set weapon type. Myself personally, I'm looking forward to the new badge Fist weapons that were data-mined. These look rather amazing for DW warriors from the aspect of large "chunk" Whirlwinds.
Anyone else got anything they'd like to add about the new weapons that have been confirmed and/or data mined?
This opens up a lot of possiblities for human warriors who were up until now rather dead locked into a set weapon type. Myself personally, I'm looking forward to the new badge Fist weapons that were data-mined. These look rather amazing for DW warriors from the aspect of large "chunk" Whirlwinds.
Anyone else got anything they'd like to add about the new weapons that have been confirmed and/or data mined?
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Originally Posted by Recab
Anyone else got anything they'd like to add about the new weapons that have been confirmed and/or data mined?
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and not 2.7 or even 2.8?Hey, first of;
New poster!
2nd, My main is Gabriell. Ravenwoods (Twisting nether EU) Arms dps warrior inr aids. On the topic of Execute over cycle
I personally only execute @ the end of a complete cycle. With a 2h I barely stick to the rage minimum for effective Execute anyway since a lucky (or unluckt for executes sake) Crit SS or WF will but me over 30. After the ms ww ms cycle I always have a sec or 2 to spare. toss in an execute there. I wouldnt notice not using execute in raids these days since its just not damage efficient.
Below 20% I go for:
White slam MS white slam ww white slam Ms white slam execute -> repeat from start. Normally execute is replaced by Demoshout. above 20% that is.
New poster!
2nd, My main is Gabriell. Ravenwoods (Twisting nether EU) Arms dps warrior inr aids. On the topic of Execute over cycle
I personally only execute @ the end of a complete cycle. With a 2h I barely stick to the rage minimum for effective Execute anyway since a lucky (or unluckt for executes sake) Crit SS or WF will but me over 30. After the ms ww ms cycle I always have a sec or 2 to spare. toss in an execute there. I wouldnt notice not using execute in raids these days since its just not damage efficient.
Below 20% I go for:
White slam MS white slam ww white slam Ms white slam execute -> repeat from start. Normally execute is replaced by Demoshout. above 20% that is.
I was under the impression that wf favours slower weapons because of the conversion of AP to weapon dps. An extra 50 weapon dps from AP on a 2.00 speed weapon would yield twice the increase in weapon damage as a 1.00 speed weapon and hence the difference in wf effectiveness, or am I completely wrong here?
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
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Originally Posted by Mjollnir
Yes: the itemization team still failed. 2.5spd
and not 2.7 or even 2.8? |
Edit: I'm sorry that it sounds a bit offensive in the end.
Last edited by Hidden : 02/18/08 at 1:27 PM.
Personally I'm glad to see solid updates. I'm sick of Dragonstrike and Talon. Very sick.
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Originally Posted by Bogeyman
An extra 50 weapon dps from AP on a 2.00 speed weapon would yield twice the increase in weapon damage as a 1.00 speed weapon and hence the difference in wf effectiveness, or am I completely wrong here?
|
Damage from WF totem per hit can be written as follows:
procChance * (weaponDamage + AttackPower * weaponSpeed/14)
Subbing in values, and approxmating weaponDamage as weaponDPS * WeaponSpeed, you get:
[top] 0.2 * (weaponDPS*WeaponSpeed + (AttackPower/14) * weaponspeed)
0.2 * weaponSpeed * (weaponDPS + Attackpower/14)
Remember, this is the average damage 'per hit' of WF. To convert this into DPS we need to multiply by hits per second (or 1/WeaponSpeed). The weaponspeed terms cancel out giving:
DPSfromWF = 0.2 * (weaponDPS + Attackpower/14)
Hence, the bonus from WF is basically* the same for any weaponspeed.
*(Of course, if you were to take into account it's effect on rage generation, flurry, etc. you might be able to find some small variance, but theres are all small, extra factors apart from it's base mechanics)
It does yield twice the weapon damage, but a faster weapon yields half the weapon damage, twice as often :P
Edit:Beaten to it apparently
Edit:Beaten to it apparently
However the slower the mainhand weapon is the higher your Heroic Strike % of total MH swings will be, increasing your total MH hit chance and thus also increasing the WF proc chance per MH swing.
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Originally Posted by Recab
Confirmed that the Human Passive Racial no longer double stacks if you use a mace/sword.
This opens up a lot of possiblities for human warriors who were up until now rather dead locked into a set weapon type. Myself personally, I'm looking forward to the new badge Fist weapons that were data-mined. These look rather amazing for DW warriors from the aspect of large "chunk" Whirlwinds. Anyone else got anything they'd like to add about the new weapons that have been confirmed and/or data mined? |
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Originally Posted by Kaan
Does the 5 Expertise gained from mainhand also count for the offhand, if the offhand isn't a Mace or Sword? If so, I'll get slow axe or fistweapon offhand, instead of the expensive slow One-Hand-Sword S3.
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For some stupid reason I was thinking back to some theorycrafting on wf pre change to autoattack procs only, where procs from yellow attacks with a slow mainhand would obviously be better.
I can see where wf as a rage feedback mechanism would be a large boost for 2h dpsing giving the rage for slam, instant cycles, the other major factor being that and your white hits are obviously capped compared to DW and you wont 'miss' any wf procs. As Hidden said with a slow MH weapon a larger portion of MH hits will be heroics hence less MH white misses and therefore more wf proc chances than a faster weapon.
I don't know if that would be a huge difference but a difference nonetheless.
I can see where wf as a rage feedback mechanism would be a large boost for 2h dpsing giving the rage for slam, instant cycles, the other major factor being that and your white hits are obviously capped compared to DW and you wont 'miss' any wf procs. As Hidden said with a slow MH weapon a larger portion of MH hits will be heroics hence less MH white misses and therefore more wf proc chances than a faster weapon.
I don't know if that would be a huge difference but a difference nonetheless.
Hi guys, first time poster here. I have been reading a lot in this thread, the spreadsheet thread and the 2h-pve dps thread. My main goal has been to learn more about 2h Fury. Everything seems to be about 33/28, now my guild run a 33/28 warrior in most raid so my purpose in raids is to put out the most dmg possible while keeping BS up. I am currently specced 17/44 and do reasonably well on damage meters but I really like the look of 2h play style. So my question is, can 2h Fury out do DW Fury if played well? I also don't understand why people are speccing 31/30 for pure dps, surely it would be better to go 30/31 (taking bloodthirst instead of MS) or even something like this Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft I'm not sure how sword spec compares to Imp Zerker).
I have searched around a lot and learnt a lot about 2h dps, unfortunately most mention of 2h Fury is immediately shot down by people bringing up 33/28.
I have searched around a lot and learnt a lot about 2h dps, unfortunately most mention of 2h Fury is immediately shot down by people bringing up 33/28.
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Originally Posted by Andreal
I have searched around a lot and learned a lot about 2h dps, unfortunately most mention of 2h Fury is immediately shot down by people bringing up 33/28.
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So are we comfortable agreeing on the following?
1. Unless you're hit capped, dual wielders will recieve less benefit from windfury simple due to the fact that they're missing more main hand swings--opportunities for windfury to proc (btw, this doesn't hold up for the dps spreadsheet--even after pumping my hit rating up to 400, it still gave my two handed build a bigger boost from wf than it did my dual wield build).
2. If you are, in fact, dual wielding, the damage bonus you get from windfury is, AT BEST, only marginally influenced by MH weapon speed.
That seems like the recap thus far.
I'm still unclear on one point. If a slow MH leads to a greater percentage of your MH swings being HS swings, won't that DECREASE your windfury bonus since you'll have fewer white damage MH attacks?
1. Unless you're hit capped, dual wielders will recieve less benefit from windfury simple due to the fact that they're missing more main hand swings--opportunities for windfury to proc (btw, this doesn't hold up for the dps spreadsheet--even after pumping my hit rating up to 400, it still gave my two handed build a bigger boost from wf than it did my dual wield build).
2. If you are, in fact, dual wielding, the damage bonus you get from windfury is, AT BEST, only marginally influenced by MH weapon speed.
That seems like the recap thus far.
I'm still unclear on one point. If a slow MH leads to a greater percentage of your MH swings being HS swings, won't that DECREASE your windfury bonus since you'll have fewer white damage MH attacks?
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Originally Posted by Malorneecs
So are we comfortable agreeing on the following?
1. Unless you're hit capped, dual wielders will recieve less benefit from windfury simple due to the fact that they're missing more main hand swings--opportunities for windfury to proc (btw, this doesn't hold up for the dps spreadsheet--even after pumping my hit rating up to 400, it still gave my two handed build a bigger boost from wf than it did my dual wield build). 2. If you are, in fact, dual wielding, the damage bonus you get from windfury is, AT BEST, only marginally influenced by MH weapon speed. That seems like the recap thus far. I'm still unclear on one point. If a slow MH leads to a greater percentage of your MH swings being HS swings, won't that DECREASE your windfury bonus since you'll have fewer white damage MH attacks? |
As to your last question, windfury can proc off of HS as well as white damage. So more HS means more hit capped attacks to proc, thus an increase in overall proc rate.
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Originally Posted by Malorneecs
I'm still unclear on one point. If a slow MH leads to a greater percentage of your MH swings being HS swings, won't that DECREASE your windfury bonus since you'll have fewer white damage MH attacks?
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Edit: Possibly sword spec, not sure about that one.
Maybe I missed some post over the 122 pages talking about it, but, did anyone take in count the new 2.4 gear?
At first when I saw it, my first opinion was "god damnit, haste all over the place...", but...
For MS/BF builds, where going bellow, lets say, 2.7-2.5 speed is bad, if you can get around 15% ish haste from 2.4 gear, and still upgrade your main stats (Crit, ArP, Ap, Hit), wouldn't be a good way to drop some points from fury to get into imp ms for the extra 20%~ MSdps?
Did not work on any math at all, just throwing this idea.
Edit: One problem would be dropping Weapon Mastery and SS to get only 4/5 into imp ms : /
Sorry for my bad english ; )
At first when I saw it, my first opinion was "god damnit, haste all over the place...", but...
For MS/BF builds, where going bellow, lets say, 2.7-2.5 speed is bad, if you can get around 15% ish haste from 2.4 gear, and still upgrade your main stats (Crit, ArP, Ap, Hit), wouldn't be a good way to drop some points from fury to get into imp ms for the extra 20%~ MSdps?
Did not work on any math at all, just throwing this idea.
Edit: One problem would be dropping Weapon Mastery and SS to get only 4/5 into imp ms : /
Sorry for my bad english ; )
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Originally Posted by Machinator
Windfury can proc off of attacks that replace MH attacks such as HS and cleave.
Edit: Possibly sword spec, not sure about that one. |
Sword spec cannot proc Windfury, only white attacks can.
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Originally Posted by Oathar
Sword spec cannot proc Windfury, only white attacks can.
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Screenshot:
And anyway, Blizzard has never stated that WF and SS don't proc eachother, they just changed that you can't proc multiple SS from one hit.
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
I'll try to find the patch notes where they fixed Sword Spec to not proc off Windfury or Hand of Justice .
Last edited by Oathar : 02/19/08 at 10:38 PM.
I remember something about that in patch notes but that doesnt mean it doesnt happen either. Same for that screenshot too, doesnt really show much. A combat log would be more useful as it would show the gains of WF and sword spec.
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
Precisely. That screenshot doesn't indicate more than a:
Normal Swing
Proc(from normal swing): Sword Spec
Proc(from normal swing): WF
Simultaneous procs from the same source.
Edit: edited for clarity
Normal Swing
Proc(from normal swing): Sword Spec
Proc(from normal swing): WF
Simultaneous procs from the same source.
Edit: edited for clarity
Last edited by Mjollnir : 02/19/08 at 11:54 PM.
I've looked like a madman but can't find the WWS, however, I've oneshot myself on RoS off of sword procs/WF procs chaining. Wish I had a combat log to show but until I saw people denying it now I was 100% sure it could.
Human Racial
Confirmed that the Human Passive Racial no longer double stacks if you use a mace/sword.
This opens up a lot of possiblities for human warriors who were up until now rather dead locked into a set weapon type. Myself personally, I'm looking forward to the new badge Fist weapons that were data-mined. These look rather amazing for DW warriors from the aspect of large "chunk" Whirlwinds.
Anyone else got anything they'd like to add about the new weapons that have been confirmed and/or data mined?
This opens up a lot of possiblities for human warriors who were up until now rather dead locked into a set weapon type. Myself personally, I'm looking forward to the new badge Fist weapons that were data-mined. These look rather amazing for DW warriors from the aspect of large "chunk" Whirlwinds.
Anyone else got anything they'd like to add about the new weapons that have been confirmed and/or data mined?
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Originally Posted by Recab
Anyone else got anything they'd like to add about the new weapons that have been confirmed and/or data mined?
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and not 2.7 or even 2.8?Hey, first of;
New poster!
2nd, My main is Gabriell. Ravenwoods (Twisting nether EU) Arms dps warrior inr aids. On the topic of Execute over cycle
I personally only execute @ the end of a complete cycle. With a 2h I barely stick to the rage minimum for effective Execute anyway since a lucky (or unluckt for executes sake) Crit SS or WF will but me over 30. After the ms ww ms cycle I always have a sec or 2 to spare. toss in an execute there. I wouldnt notice not using execute in raids these days since its just not damage efficient.
Below 20% I go for:
White slam MS white slam ww white slam Ms white slam execute -> repeat from start. Normally execute is replaced by Demoshout. above 20% that is.
New poster!
2nd, My main is Gabriell. Ravenwoods (Twisting nether EU) Arms dps warrior inr aids. On the topic of Execute over cycle
I personally only execute @ the end of a complete cycle. With a 2h I barely stick to the rage minimum for effective Execute anyway since a lucky (or unluckt for executes sake) Crit SS or WF will but me over 30. After the ms ww ms cycle I always have a sec or 2 to spare. toss in an execute there. I wouldnt notice not using execute in raids these days since its just not damage efficient.
Below 20% I go for:
White slam MS white slam ww white slam Ms white slam execute -> repeat from start. Normally execute is replaced by Demoshout. above 20% that is.
I was under the impression that wf favours slower weapons because of the conversion of AP to weapon dps. An extra 50 weapon dps from AP on a 2.00 speed weapon would yield twice the increase in weapon damage as a 1.00 speed weapon and hence the difference in wf effectiveness, or am I completely wrong here?
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
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Originally Posted by Mjollnir
Yes: the itemization team still failed. 2.5spd
and not 2.7 or even 2.8? |
Edit: I'm sorry that it sounds a bit offensive in the end.
Last edited by Hidden : 02/18/08 at 1:27 PM.
Personally I'm glad to see solid updates. I'm sick of Dragonstrike and Talon. Very sick.
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Originally Posted by Bogeyman
An extra 50 weapon dps from AP on a 2.00 speed weapon would yield twice the increase in weapon damage as a 1.00 speed weapon and hence the difference in wf effectiveness, or am I completely wrong here?
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Damage from WF totem per hit can be written as follows:
procChance * (weaponDamage + AttackPower * weaponSpeed/14)
Subbing in values, and approxmating weaponDamage as weaponDPS * WeaponSpeed, you get:
[top] 0.2 * (weaponDPS*WeaponSpeed + (AttackPower/14) * weaponspeed)
0.2 * weaponSpeed * (weaponDPS + Attackpower/14)
Remember, this is the average damage 'per hit' of WF. To convert this into DPS we need to multiply by hits per second (or 1/WeaponSpeed). The weaponspeed terms cancel out giving:
DPSfromWF = 0.2 * (weaponDPS + Attackpower/14)
Hence, the bonus from WF is basically* the same for any weaponspeed.
*(Of course, if you were to take into account it's effect on rage generation, flurry, etc. you might be able to find some small variance, but theres are all small, extra factors apart from it's base mechanics)
It does yield twice the weapon damage, but a faster weapon yields half the weapon damage, twice as often :P
Edit:Beaten to it apparently
Edit:Beaten to it apparently
However the slower the mainhand weapon is the higher your Heroic Strike % of total MH swings will be, increasing your total MH hit chance and thus also increasing the WF proc chance per MH swing.
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Originally Posted by Recab
Confirmed that the Human Passive Racial no longer double stacks if you use a mace/sword.
This opens up a lot of possiblities for human warriors who were up until now rather dead locked into a set weapon type. Myself personally, I'm looking forward to the new badge Fist weapons that were data-mined. These look rather amazing for DW warriors from the aspect of large "chunk" Whirlwinds. Anyone else got anything they'd like to add about the new weapons that have been confirmed and/or data mined? |
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Originally Posted by Kaan
Does the 5 Expertise gained from mainhand also count for the offhand, if the offhand isn't a Mace or Sword? If so, I'll get slow axe or fistweapon offhand, instead of the expensive slow One-Hand-Sword S3.
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For some stupid reason I was thinking back to some theorycrafting on wf pre change to autoattack procs only, where procs from yellow attacks with a slow mainhand would obviously be better.
I can see where wf as a rage feedback mechanism would be a large boost for 2h dpsing giving the rage for slam, instant cycles, the other major factor being that and your white hits are obviously capped compared to DW and you wont 'miss' any wf procs. As Hidden said with a slow MH weapon a larger portion of MH hits will be heroics hence less MH white misses and therefore more wf proc chances than a faster weapon.
I don't know if that would be a huge difference but a difference nonetheless.
I can see where wf as a rage feedback mechanism would be a large boost for 2h dpsing giving the rage for slam, instant cycles, the other major factor being that and your white hits are obviously capped compared to DW and you wont 'miss' any wf procs. As Hidden said with a slow MH weapon a larger portion of MH hits will be heroics hence less MH white misses and therefore more wf proc chances than a faster weapon.
I don't know if that would be a huge difference but a difference nonetheless.
Hi guys, first time poster here. I have been reading a lot in this thread, the spreadsheet thread and the 2h-pve dps thread. My main goal has been to learn more about 2h Fury. Everything seems to be about 33/28, now my guild run a 33/28 warrior in most raid so my purpose in raids is to put out the most dmg possible while keeping BS up. I am currently specced 17/44 and do reasonably well on damage meters but I really like the look of 2h play style. So my question is, can 2h Fury out do DW Fury if played well? I also don't understand why people are speccing 31/30 for pure dps, surely it would be better to go 30/31 (taking bloodthirst instead of MS) or even something like this Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft I'm not sure how sword spec compares to Imp Zerker).
I have searched around a lot and learnt a lot about 2h dps, unfortunately most mention of 2h Fury is immediately shot down by people bringing up 33/28.
I have searched around a lot and learnt a lot about 2h dps, unfortunately most mention of 2h Fury is immediately shot down by people bringing up 33/28.
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Originally Posted by Andreal
I have searched around a lot and learned a lot about 2h dps, unfortunately most mention of 2h Fury is immediately shot down by people bringing up 33/28.
|
So are we comfortable agreeing on the following?
1. Unless you're hit capped, dual wielders will recieve less benefit from windfury simple due to the fact that they're missing more main hand swings--opportunities for windfury to proc (btw, this doesn't hold up for the dps spreadsheet--even after pumping my hit rating up to 400, it still gave my two handed build a bigger boost from wf than it did my dual wield build).
2. If you are, in fact, dual wielding, the damage bonus you get from windfury is, AT BEST, only marginally influenced by MH weapon speed.
That seems like the recap thus far.
I'm still unclear on one point. If a slow MH leads to a greater percentage of your MH swings being HS swings, won't that DECREASE your windfury bonus since you'll have fewer white damage MH attacks?
1. Unless you're hit capped, dual wielders will recieve less benefit from windfury simple due to the fact that they're missing more main hand swings--opportunities for windfury to proc (btw, this doesn't hold up for the dps spreadsheet--even after pumping my hit rating up to 400, it still gave my two handed build a bigger boost from wf than it did my dual wield build).
2. If you are, in fact, dual wielding, the damage bonus you get from windfury is, AT BEST, only marginally influenced by MH weapon speed.
That seems like the recap thus far.
I'm still unclear on one point. If a slow MH leads to a greater percentage of your MH swings being HS swings, won't that DECREASE your windfury bonus since you'll have fewer white damage MH attacks?
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Originally Posted by Malorneecs
So are we comfortable agreeing on the following?
1. Unless you're hit capped, dual wielders will recieve less benefit from windfury simple due to the fact that they're missing more main hand swings--opportunities for windfury to proc (btw, this doesn't hold up for the dps spreadsheet--even after pumping my hit rating up to 400, it still gave my two handed build a bigger boost from wf than it did my dual wield build). 2. If you are, in fact, dual wielding, the damage bonus you get from windfury is, AT BEST, only marginally influenced by MH weapon speed. That seems like the recap thus far. I'm still unclear on one point. If a slow MH leads to a greater percentage of your MH swings being HS swings, won't that DECREASE your windfury bonus since you'll have fewer white damage MH attacks? |
As to your last question, windfury can proc off of HS as well as white damage. So more HS means more hit capped attacks to proc, thus an increase in overall proc rate.
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Originally Posted by Malorneecs
I'm still unclear on one point. If a slow MH leads to a greater percentage of your MH swings being HS swings, won't that DECREASE your windfury bonus since you'll have fewer white damage MH attacks?
|
Edit: Possibly sword spec, not sure about that one.
Maybe I missed some post over the 122 pages talking about it, but, did anyone take in count the new 2.4 gear?
At first when I saw it, my first opinion was "god damnit, haste all over the place...", but...
For MS/BF builds, where going bellow, lets say, 2.7-2.5 speed is bad, if you can get around 15% ish haste from 2.4 gear, and still upgrade your main stats (Crit, ArP, Ap, Hit), wouldn't be a good way to drop some points from fury to get into imp ms for the extra 20%~ MSdps?
Did not work on any math at all, just throwing this idea.
Edit: One problem would be dropping Weapon Mastery and SS to get only 4/5 into imp ms : /
Sorry for my bad english ; )
At first when I saw it, my first opinion was "god damnit, haste all over the place...", but...
For MS/BF builds, where going bellow, lets say, 2.7-2.5 speed is bad, if you can get around 15% ish haste from 2.4 gear, and still upgrade your main stats (Crit, ArP, Ap, Hit), wouldn't be a good way to drop some points from fury to get into imp ms for the extra 20%~ MSdps?
Did not work on any math at all, just throwing this idea.
Edit: One problem would be dropping Weapon Mastery and SS to get only 4/5 into imp ms : /
Sorry for my bad english ; )
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Originally Posted by Machinator
Windfury can proc off of attacks that replace MH attacks such as HS and cleave.
Edit: Possibly sword spec, not sure about that one. |
Sword spec cannot proc Windfury, only white attacks can.
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Originally Posted by Oathar
Sword spec cannot proc Windfury, only white attacks can.
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Screenshot:
And anyway, Blizzard has never stated that WF and SS don't proc eachother, they just changed that you can't proc multiple SS from one hit.
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
I'll try to find the patch notes where they fixed Sword Spec to not proc off Windfury or Hand of Justice .
Last edited by Oathar : 02/19/08 at 10:38 PM.
I remember something about that in patch notes but that doesnt mean it doesnt happen either. Same for that screenshot too, doesnt really show much. A combat log would be more useful as it would show the gains of WF and sword spec.
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
Precisely. That screenshot doesn't indicate more than a:
Normal Swing
Proc(from normal swing): Sword Spec
Proc(from normal swing): WF
Simultaneous procs from the same source.
Edit: edited for clarity
Normal Swing
Proc(from normal swing): Sword Spec
Proc(from normal swing): WF
Simultaneous procs from the same source.
Edit: edited for clarity
Last edited by Mjollnir : 02/19/08 at 11:54 PM.
I've looked like a madman but can't find the WWS, however, I've oneshot myself on RoS off of sword procs/WF procs chaining. Wish I had a combat log to show but until I saw people denying it now I was 100% sure it could.
An extra attack cannot proc another extra attack. Everything else is possible.
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Originally Posted by Recab
Confirmed that the Human Passive Racial no longer double stacks if you use a mace/sword.
This opens up a lot of possiblities for human warriors who were up until now rather dead locked into a set weapon type. Myself personally, I'm looking forward to the new badge Fist weapons that were data-mined. These look rather amazing for DW warriors from the aspect of large "chunk" Whirlwinds. Anyone else got anything they'd like to add about the new weapons that have been confirmed and/or data mined? |
I'd like to see some hard evidence that Windfury cannot be procced off of Sword Spec. For all intents and purposes, Sword Specialization is another attack that was generated as if your swing time for that attack was 0 (theoretically) seconds. It is subject to the exact same laws as a normal attack.
It's not exactly the same, as a sword proc cannot proc another sword proc.
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Originally Posted by Voxx
For all intents and purposes, Sword Specialization is another attack that was generated as if your swing time for that attack was 0 (theoretically) seconds.
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Originally Posted by Voxx
I'd like to see some hard evidence that Windfury cannot be procced off of Sword Spec. For all intents and purposes, Sword Specialization is another attack that was generated as if your swing time for that attack was 0 (theoretically) seconds. It is subject to the exact same laws as a normal attack.
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Originally Posted by Buckwild
We should be looking for hard evidence that it CAN, not that it cannot. So far we see none.
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and Buck ... did you use to play on Shadowmoon by chance?
By strange coincidence, the screenshot I took last night of pulling aggro on Archimonde has sword spec proccing Windfury:
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Originally Posted by Grayson Carlyle
By strange coincidence, the screenshot I took last night of pulling aggro on Archimonde has sword spec proccing Windfury:
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Yah, it's extremely confusing. I didn't fully understand it until reading the SS/WF proccing question this morning and it clicked.
Normal swing at 32
Follow-up Slam at 33, which procs SS
SS swing at 33, which procs WF
WF proc at 33
MS hit at 34
Normal swing at 35, which procs WF
WF proc at 36, which procs Archimonde aggo
Normal swing at 32
Follow-up Slam at 33, which procs SS
SS swing at 33, which procs WF
WF proc at 33
MS hit at 34
Normal swing at 35, which procs WF
WF proc at 36, which procs Archimonde aggo
So SS hits are normal hits in every aspect but one, they cannot proc another SS.
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
Just what I said one page ago, Blizzard only stated that SS can't proc from itself, nowhere they said that it can't proc from attacks caused by WF or WF can't proc from it.
Before the change it was theoretically possible to have an inifinite amount of Sword Specs proccing from itself, now it's theoretically possible with SS and WF but much less likely.
Edit: Maybe they included HoJ with SS as well, but WF has always been "something different" as it gives bonus AP and its extra attack mechanic has been changed many times.
Before the change it was theoretically possible to have an inifinite amount of Sword Specs proccing from itself, now it's theoretically possible with SS and WF but much less likely.
Edit: Maybe they included HoJ with SS as well, but WF has always been "something different" as it gives bonus AP and its extra attack mechanic has been changed many times.
Last edited by Hidden : 02/20/08 at 5:50 PM.
Well I was hoping to look for the actual combat log with milliseconds and all because what your client writes to the combat log is affected by client/server lag. If attacks are close together it is very hard to tell what procced what. I noticed it a lot when testing proc rates.
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Originally Posted by Machinator
Well I was hoping to look for the actual combat log with milliseconds and all because what your client writes to the combat log is affected by client/server lag. If attacks are close together it is very hard to tell what procced what. I noticed it a lot when testing proc rates.
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Sadly it's very unlikely that I'll have one of these proccs again as I'm now raiding as Fury and just respec MS for PvP, so I probably can't serve you with a Combat Log screen anytime soon.
T6 Belt/Bracers/Boots updated.
Seeing as they removed all stamina and added some other stats on the items (mainly +hit and +expertise) I'm wondering how people view the updated T6 belt/bracers/boots, previously I was only ever intrested into the bracers, seeing as the other bits lost me to much hit.
For those intrested.
For those intrested.
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
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Originally Posted by Andreal
I have searched around a lot and learnt a lot about 2h dps, unfortunately most mention of 2h Fury is immediately shot down by people bringing up 33/28.
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Unlike you I specced Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft because there are addional warries in my raid, responible for demo. It is important to have rampage. BT scales with your ap and your opponent's armor/mitigation. You give away 275 ap... for 1 point missed.
Weapon is Cataclysm's Edge, about 1400 armor penetration, 33% crit (w/o feral), 4050-4500 ap raidbuffed during the fight.
Due to weapon speed in combination with 5/5 flurry, I mainly used HS instead of slamming. Because of the much higher ap (than 33/28), you gain more dps (and rage) especially through windfury procs. With more rage you can either do a proper cycle or use more HS, to minimize glancings.
As I said: it is fun, variety but definitely no serious spec for raid support. Normally I play MS/BF and I used nearly the same equip for testing 2h fury. I guess if one specializes in collecting dual wield items, you would do more dps than 2h fury.
Last edited by terri : 02/21/08 at 7:44 AM.
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Originally Posted by Steveharris
If 2H fury out damaged DW fury "if played well", it would be commonly accepted that 2H fury would be the best DPS spec (believe it or not, a lot of the people here can play very well). If you want to DPS with a 2H, spec arms/BF, otherwise you're not going to be competitive in damage, and you're not bringing any significant raid buffs.
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that is simply not true. i am 20/41 2h fury and i rank well in my guild's meters. here's proof. I'm Ztnook btw.
WWS Loading...
Wow Web Stats
Wow Web Stats
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Originally Posted by Koontz
that is simply not true. i am 20/41 2h fury and i rank well in my guild's meters. here's proof. I'm Ztnook btw.
WWS Loading... Wow Web Stats Wow Web Stats |
Exactly. The question should not be if 2H Fury dps is acceptable or not, which would be very subjective and dependant on people's guilds like Buckwild said, but rather if you can reach your character's fullest dps potential with that spec.
Of course, if you love fury and love using a two hander and you and your guild don't mind, then naturally you should play what you enjoy most.
Of course, if you love fury and love using a two hander and you and your guild don't mind, then naturally you should play what you enjoy most.
Any suggestions for a debuff rotation as 33/28, demo shout/thunderclap. Is it worth going into zerk stance for 2 whirlwinds or will I be better off focusing on slam rotation in battle?
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Originally Posted by orgasmatron
Any suggestions for a debuff rotation as 33/28, demo shout/thunderclap. Is it worth going into zerk stance for 2 whirlwinds or will I be better off focusing on slam rotation in battle?
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If it's a real tight fight then occasionally swapping to battle to apply TC for your tank won't be an issue, but otherwise the tank should be able to apply it himself (unless you're running with a Pala/Druid as MT ofcourse).
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Originally Posted by orgasmatron
Any suggestions for a debuff rotation as 33/28, demo shout/thunderclap. Is it worth going into zerk stance for 2 whirlwinds or will I be better off focusing on slam rotation in battle?
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Originally Posted by Zalein
I'm currently standing at around -1050 before Executioner. T6 bosses have a minimum of 6200 armor value. So:
If normal boss debuffs are -2600 - 610 - 800 (5xsunder, faerie fire, CoR) 6200 - 2600 - 610 - 800 = -4010 From that I'll take my potential maximum penetration including Executioner proc: -1940 -4010 - 1940 = -5950 Is it safe to assume I can still stack an additional 250 armor penetration before I reach 0 armor value and start wasting the stat? |
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Originally Posted by Machinator
Well I was hoping to look for the actual combat log with milliseconds and all because what your client writes to the combat log is affected by client/server lag. If attacks are close together it is very hard to tell what procced what. I noticed it a lot when testing proc rates.
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It's frustrating, but at least getting some screenshots gives us more data and therefore more confidence in our assumptions.
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Originally Posted by Zalein
Anyone? =/
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How 2H gains more from WF Totem than 1H
I wasn't able to get access to the old forums where this was orginally pencilled in, but here is a recreated example that illustrates the benefits of WF for a 1H vs 2H.
Take standard widespread examples: s3 weapons.
1H stats: 2.60spd 187-349dmg 103.1dps
2H stats: 3.60spd 386-580dmg 134.2dps
Things to remember: WF proc only happens on the MH while DWing and obviously on a 2H. Furthermore, attack power is normalized right around where these speeds register (been a while since remembering what the 3 speeds are for dagger, 1H, 2H but the general gist is we assume AP influence is equal due to normalization).
We'll ignore flurry, chance to miss, other haste procs etc. We'll assume the DWing warrior will proc 5/5 Flurry more often but miss an amount that brings it equal to the 2H (MS/BF) procing 3/5 Flurry but never missing.
Common denominator to match swings: 26 x 36 = 936. We'll say (for a nice chunk of time) we sample 93.6s of an encounter and the encounter behaves perfectly according to the law of averages. Napkin math if you will.
1H:
Swings exactly 36 times inside this window.
Avg hit is (187+349)/2 = 268.
WF proc is .2 x 36 = 7.2 times inside this window.
Normal dmg due to MH: 9648
Additional dmg due to WF proc: 1929.6
2H:
Swings exactly 26 times inside this window.
Avg hit is (386+580)/2 = 483.
WF proc is .2 x 26 = 5.2 times inside this window.
Normal dmg due to 2H: 12558
Additional dmg due to WF proc: 2511
Difference in gains between the 1H/2H: 43.45 / 56.54
Of course, if there are any issues with the math or I'm forcing the numbers in a certain way, please point it out.
Noteworthy: this is for WF totem only. Arguably a 17/44 warrior will make more use of an Enh Sham overall than a 33/28 due to BT being the rage burn and it scaling directly with AP which the Enh Sham provides in bulk.
Take standard widespread examples: s3 weapons.
1H stats: 2.60spd 187-349dmg 103.1dps
2H stats: 3.60spd 386-580dmg 134.2dps
Things to remember: WF proc only happens on the MH while DWing and obviously on a 2H. Furthermore, attack power is normalized right around where these speeds register (been a while since remembering what the 3 speeds are for dagger, 1H, 2H but the general gist is we assume AP influence is equal due to normalization).
We'll ignore flurry, chance to miss, other haste procs etc. We'll assume the DWing warrior will proc 5/5 Flurry more often but miss an amount that brings it equal to the 2H (MS/BF) procing 3/5 Flurry but never missing.
Common denominator to match swings: 26 x 36 = 936. We'll say (for a nice chunk of time) we sample 93.6s of an encounter and the encounter behaves perfectly according to the law of averages. Napkin math if you will.
1H:
Swings exactly 36 times inside this window.
Avg hit is (187+349)/2 = 268.
WF proc is .2 x 36 = 7.2 times inside this window.
Normal dmg due to MH: 9648
Additional dmg due to WF proc: 1929.6
2H:
Swings exactly 26 times inside this window.
Avg hit is (386+580)/2 = 483.
WF proc is .2 x 26 = 5.2 times inside this window.
Normal dmg due to 2H: 12558
Additional dmg due to WF proc: 2511
Difference in gains between the 1H/2H: 43.45 / 56.54
Of course, if there are any issues with the math or I'm forcing the numbers in a certain way, please point it out.
Noteworthy: this is for WF totem only. Arguably a 17/44 warrior will make more use of an Enh Sham overall than a 33/28 due to BT being the rage burn and it scaling directly with AP which the Enh Sham provides in bulk.
An extra attack cannot proc another extra attack. Everything else is possible.
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Originally Posted by Recab
Confirmed that the Human Passive Racial no longer double stacks if you use a mace/sword.
This opens up a lot of possiblities for human warriors who were up until now rather dead locked into a set weapon type. Myself personally, I'm looking forward to the new badge Fist weapons that were data-mined. These look rather amazing for DW warriors from the aspect of large "chunk" Whirlwinds. Anyone else got anything they'd like to add about the new weapons that have been confirmed and/or data mined? |
I'd like to see some hard evidence that Windfury cannot be procced off of Sword Spec. For all intents and purposes, Sword Specialization is another attack that was generated as if your swing time for that attack was 0 (theoretically) seconds. It is subject to the exact same laws as a normal attack.
It's not exactly the same, as a sword proc cannot proc another sword proc.
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Originally Posted by Voxx
For all intents and purposes, Sword Specialization is another attack that was generated as if your swing time for that attack was 0 (theoretically) seconds.
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Originally Posted by Voxx
I'd like to see some hard evidence that Windfury cannot be procced off of Sword Spec. For all intents and purposes, Sword Specialization is another attack that was generated as if your swing time for that attack was 0 (theoretically) seconds. It is subject to the exact same laws as a normal attack.
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Originally Posted by Buckwild
We should be looking for hard evidence that it CAN, not that it cannot. So far we see none.
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and Buck ... did you use to play on Shadowmoon by chance?
By strange coincidence, the screenshot I took last night of pulling aggro on Archimonde has sword spec proccing Windfury:
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Originally Posted by Grayson Carlyle
By strange coincidence, the screenshot I took last night of pulling aggro on Archimonde has sword spec proccing Windfury:
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Yah, it's extremely confusing. I didn't fully understand it until reading the SS/WF proccing question this morning and it clicked.
Normal swing at 32
Follow-up Slam at 33, which procs SS
SS swing at 33, which procs WF
WF proc at 33
MS hit at 34
Normal swing at 35, which procs WF
WF proc at 36, which procs Archimonde aggo
Normal swing at 32
Follow-up Slam at 33, which procs SS
SS swing at 33, which procs WF
WF proc at 33
MS hit at 34
Normal swing at 35, which procs WF
WF proc at 36, which procs Archimonde aggo
So SS hits are normal hits in every aspect but one, they cannot proc another SS.
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
Just what I said one page ago, Blizzard only stated that SS can't proc from itself, nowhere they said that it can't proc from attacks caused by WF or WF can't proc from it.
Before the change it was theoretically possible to have an inifinite amount of Sword Specs proccing from itself, now it's theoretically possible with SS and WF but much less likely.
Edit: Maybe they included HoJ with SS as well, but WF has always been "something different" as it gives bonus AP and its extra attack mechanic has been changed many times.
Before the change it was theoretically possible to have an inifinite amount of Sword Specs proccing from itself, now it's theoretically possible with SS and WF but much less likely.
Edit: Maybe they included HoJ with SS as well, but WF has always been "something different" as it gives bonus AP and its extra attack mechanic has been changed many times.
Last edited by Hidden : 02/20/08 at 5:50 PM.
Well I was hoping to look for the actual combat log with milliseconds and all because what your client writes to the combat log is affected by client/server lag. If attacks are close together it is very hard to tell what procced what. I noticed it a lot when testing proc rates.
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Originally Posted by Machinator
Well I was hoping to look for the actual combat log with milliseconds and all because what your client writes to the combat log is affected by client/server lag. If attacks are close together it is very hard to tell what procced what. I noticed it a lot when testing proc rates.
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Sadly it's very unlikely that I'll have one of these proccs again as I'm now raiding as Fury and just respec MS for PvP, so I probably can't serve you with a Combat Log screen anytime soon.
T6 Belt/Bracers/Boots updated.
Seeing as they removed all stamina and added some other stats on the items (mainly +hit and +expertise) I'm wondering how people view the updated T6 belt/bracers/boots, previously I was only ever intrested into the bracers, seeing as the other bits lost me to much hit.
For those intrested.
For those intrested.
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
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Originally Posted by Andreal
I have searched around a lot and learnt a lot about 2h dps, unfortunately most mention of 2h Fury is immediately shot down by people bringing up 33/28.
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Unlike you I specced Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft because there are addional warries in my raid, responible for demo. It is important to have rampage. BT scales with your ap and your opponent's armor/mitigation. You give away 275 ap... for 1 point missed.
Weapon is Cataclysm's Edge, about 1400 armor penetration, 33% crit (w/o feral), 4050-4500 ap raidbuffed during the fight.
Due to weapon speed in combination with 5/5 flurry, I mainly used HS instead of slamming. Because of the much higher ap (than 33/28), you gain more dps (and rage) especially through windfury procs. With more rage you can either do a proper cycle or use more HS, to minimize glancings.
As I said: it is fun, variety but definitely no serious spec for raid support. Normally I play MS/BF and I used nearly the same equip for testing 2h fury. I guess if one specializes in collecting dual wield items, you would do more dps than 2h fury.
Last edited by terri : 02/21/08 at 7:44 AM.
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Originally Posted by Steveharris
If 2H fury out damaged DW fury "if played well", it would be commonly accepted that 2H fury would be the best DPS spec (believe it or not, a lot of the people here can play very well). If you want to DPS with a 2H, spec arms/BF, otherwise you're not going to be competitive in damage, and you're not bringing any significant raid buffs.
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that is simply not true. i am 20/41 2h fury and i rank well in my guild's meters. here's proof. I'm Ztnook btw.
WWS Loading...
Wow Web Stats
Wow Web Stats
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Originally Posted by Koontz
that is simply not true. i am 20/41 2h fury and i rank well in my guild's meters. here's proof. I'm Ztnook btw.
WWS Loading... Wow Web Stats Wow Web Stats |
Exactly. The question should not be if 2H Fury dps is acceptable or not, which would be very subjective and dependant on people's guilds like Buckwild said, but rather if you can reach your character's fullest dps potential with that spec.
Of course, if you love fury and love using a two hander and you and your guild don't mind, then naturally you should play what you enjoy most.
Of course, if you love fury and love using a two hander and you and your guild don't mind, then naturally you should play what you enjoy most.
Any suggestions for a debuff rotation as 33/28, demo shout/thunderclap. Is it worth going into zerk stance for 2 whirlwinds or will I be better off focusing on slam rotation in battle?
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Originally Posted by orgasmatron
Any suggestions for a debuff rotation as 33/28, demo shout/thunderclap. Is it worth going into zerk stance for 2 whirlwinds or will I be better off focusing on slam rotation in battle?
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If it's a real tight fight then occasionally swapping to battle to apply TC for your tank won't be an issue, but otherwise the tank should be able to apply it himself (unless you're running with a Pala/Druid as MT ofcourse).
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Originally Posted by orgasmatron
Any suggestions for a debuff rotation as 33/28, demo shout/thunderclap. Is it worth going into zerk stance for 2 whirlwinds or will I be better off focusing on slam rotation in battle?
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Originally Posted by Zalein
I'm currently standing at around -1050 before Executioner. T6 bosses have a minimum of 6200 armor value. So:
If normal boss debuffs are -2600 - 610 - 800 (5xsunder, faerie fire, CoR) 6200 - 2600 - 610 - 800 = -4010 From that I'll take my potential maximum penetration including Executioner proc: -1940 -4010 - 1940 = -5950 Is it safe to assume I can still stack an additional 250 armor penetration before I reach 0 armor value and start wasting the stat? |
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Originally Posted by Machinator
Well I was hoping to look for the actual combat log with milliseconds and all because what your client writes to the combat log is affected by client/server lag. If attacks are close together it is very hard to tell what procced what. I noticed it a lot when testing proc rates.
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It's frustrating, but at least getting some screenshots gives us more data and therefore more confidence in our assumptions.
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Originally Posted by Zalein
Anyone? =/
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How 2H gains more from WF Totem than 1H
I wasn't able to get access to the old forums where this was orginally pencilled in, but here is a recreated example that illustrates the benefits of WF for a 1H vs 2H.
Take standard widespread examples: s3 weapons.
1H stats: 2.60spd 187-349dmg 103.1dps
2H stats: 3.60spd 386-580dmg 134.2dps
Things to remember: WF proc only happens on the MH while DWing and obviously on a 2H. Furthermore, attack power is normalized right around where these speeds register (been a while since remembering what the 3 speeds are for dagger, 1H, 2H but the general gist is we assume AP influence is equal due to normalization).
We'll ignore flurry, chance to miss, other haste procs etc. We'll assume the DWing warrior will proc 5/5 Flurry more often but miss an amount that brings it equal to the 2H (MS/BF) procing 3/5 Flurry but never missing.
Common denominator to match swings: 26 x 36 = 936. We'll say (for a nice chunk of time) we sample 93.6s of an encounter and the encounter behaves perfectly according to the law of averages. Napkin math if you will.
1H:
Swings exactly 36 times inside this window.
Avg hit is (187+349)/2 = 268.
WF proc is .2 x 36 = 7.2 times inside this window.
Normal dmg due to MH: 9648
Additional dmg due to WF proc: 1929.6
2H:
Swings exactly 26 times inside this window.
Avg hit is (386+580)/2 = 483.
WF proc is .2 x 26 = 5.2 times inside this window.
Normal dmg due to 2H: 12558
Additional dmg due to WF proc: 2511
Difference in gains between the 1H/2H: 43.45 / 56.54
Of course, if there are any issues with the math or I'm forcing the numbers in a certain way, please point it out.
Noteworthy: this is for WF totem only. Arguably a 17/44 warrior will make more use of an Enh Sham overall than a 33/28 due to BT being the rage burn and it scaling directly with AP which the Enh Sham provides in bulk.
Take standard widespread examples: s3 weapons.
1H stats: 2.60spd 187-349dmg 103.1dps
2H stats: 3.60spd 386-580dmg 134.2dps
Things to remember: WF proc only happens on the MH while DWing and obviously on a 2H. Furthermore, attack power is normalized right around where these speeds register (been a while since remembering what the 3 speeds are for dagger, 1H, 2H but the general gist is we assume AP influence is equal due to normalization).
We'll ignore flurry, chance to miss, other haste procs etc. We'll assume the DWing warrior will proc 5/5 Flurry more often but miss an amount that brings it equal to the 2H (MS/BF) procing 3/5 Flurry but never missing.
Common denominator to match swings: 26 x 36 = 936. We'll say (for a nice chunk of time) we sample 93.6s of an encounter and the encounter behaves perfectly according to the law of averages. Napkin math if you will.
1H:
Swings exactly 36 times inside this window.
Avg hit is (187+349)/2 = 268.
WF proc is .2 x 36 = 7.2 times inside this window.
Normal dmg due to MH: 9648
Additional dmg due to WF proc: 1929.6
2H:
Swings exactly 26 times inside this window.
Avg hit is (386+580)/2 = 483.
WF proc is .2 x 26 = 5.2 times inside this window.
Normal dmg due to 2H: 12558
Additional dmg due to WF proc: 2511
Difference in gains between the 1H/2H: 43.45 / 56.54
Of course, if there are any issues with the math or I'm forcing the numbers in a certain way, please point it out.
Noteworthy: this is for WF totem only. Arguably a 17/44 warrior will make more use of an Enh Sham overall than a 33/28 due to BT being the rage burn and it scaling directly with AP which the Enh Sham provides in bulk.
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Originally Posted by Zalein
Anyone? =/
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For the combat logs, when I was doing testing I think I had about 100-200ms to the PTR. Executioner did not proc until about that time after the hit was in the log. The part with that screenshot I note also is the deep wound tick after a crit.
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Originally Posted by Mjollnir
I wasn't able to get access to the old forums where this was orginally pencilled in, but here is a recreated example that illustrates the benefits of WF for a 1H vs 2H.
Take standard widespread examples: s3 weapons. 1H stats: 2.60spd 187-349dmg 103.1dps 2H stats: 3.60spd 386-580dmg 134.2dps Things to remember: WF proc only happens on the MH while DWing and obviously on a 2H. Furthermore, attack power is normalized right around where these speeds register (been a while since remembering what the 3 speeds are for dagger, 1H, 2H but the general gist is we assume AP influence is equal due to normalization). We'll ignore flurry, chance to miss, other haste procs etc. We'll assume the DWing warrior will proc 5/5 Flurry more often but miss an amount that brings it equal to the 2H (MS/BF) procing 3/5 Flurry but never missing. Common denominator to match swings: 26 x 36 = 936. We'll say (for a nice chunk of time) we sample 93.6s of an encounter and the encounter behaves perfectly according to the law of averages. Napkin math if you will. 1H: Swings exactly 36 times inside this window. Avg hit is (187+349)/2 = 268. WF proc is .2 x 36 = 7.2 times inside this window. Normal dmg due to MH: 9648 Additional dmg due to WF proc: 1929.6 2H: Swings exactly 26 times inside this window. Avg hit is (386+580)/2 = 483. WF proc is .2 x 26 = 5.2 times inside this window. Normal dmg due to 2H: 12558 Additional dmg due to WF proc: 2511 Difference in gains between the 1H/2H: 43.45 / 56.54 Of course, if there are any issues with the math or I'm forcing the numbers in a certain way, please point it out. Noteworthy: this is for WF totem only. Arguably a 17/44 warrior will make more use of an Enh Sham overall than a 33/28 due to BT being the rage burn and it scaling directly with AP which the Enh Sham provides in bulk. |
All it comes down to is one simple thing: WF affects mainhand only. Ergo, you're comparing a ~100dps 1her against a ~130dps 2her, hence 2her wins. Simple. Done. The end.
The bit concerning AP and normalization was to indicate it would take a DW a disproportionate amount for their normal swing to outweigh the 2her.
And it took me about 5min on paper, so not really that long =P
And it took me about 5min on paper, so not really that long =P
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Originally Posted by Mjollnir
The bit concerning AP and normalization was to indicate it would take a DW a disproportionate amount for their normal swing to outweigh the 2her.
And it took me about 5min on paper, so not really that long =P |
Moogul, I realize you're knowledgeable on the topic. I'm not attempting to insult your intelligence. WF totem procs an additional swing without the usual wait.
This swing is a regular swing that is subject to crit, hit, miss and AP plays a role in boosting the dmg of a weapon. Normalization is used given that AP affects a 1H differently than a 2H. Normalization doesn't impact WF at all, agreed. I'm referring to the weapon swing.
Are you suggesting that the bonus AP from WF is directly applied to the procced swing? I don't know anything about this happening or not. My comment was concerning the value of the regular swings, and thus, the value of the procc'ed swings. Hence, my 2k AP (or whatever value) on a 1H is worth less than my 2k AP on a 2H. Essentially that no amount of similar AP will cause a 1H and 2H to produce similar output. There will always be a significant gap.
Are we talking past each other? I'm a little confused what you mean by normalization and WF having no purpose in the same sentence. I don't believe I said anything about WF being normalized?
This swing is a regular swing that is subject to crit, hit, miss and AP plays a role in boosting the dmg of a weapon. Normalization is used given that AP affects a 1H differently than a 2H. Normalization doesn't impact WF at all, agreed. I'm referring to the weapon swing.
Are you suggesting that the bonus AP from WF is directly applied to the procced swing? I don't know anything about this happening or not. My comment was concerning the value of the regular swings, and thus, the value of the procc'ed swings. Hence, my 2k AP (or whatever value) on a 1H is worth less than my 2k AP on a 2H. Essentially that no amount of similar AP will cause a 1H and 2H to produce similar output. There will always be a significant gap.
Are we talking past each other? I'm a little confused what you mean by normalization and WF having no purpose in the same sentence. I don't believe I said anything about WF being normalized?
AP is normalized on instant/special attacks, not regular swings, no?
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Originally Posted by Gaise
AP is normalized on instant/special attacks, not regular swings, no?
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Originally Posted by Mjollnir
Moogul, I realize you're knowledgeable on the topic. I'm not attempting to insult your intelligence. WF totem procs an additional swing without the usual wait.
This swing is a regular swing that is subject to crit, hit, miss and AP plays a role in boosting the dmg of a weapon. Normalization is used given that AP affects a 1H differently than a 2H. Normalization doesn't impact WF at all, agreed. I'm referring to the weapon swing. Are you suggesting that the bonus AP from WF is directly applied to the procced swing? I don't know anything about this happening or not. My comment was concerning the value of the regular swings, and thus, the value of the procc'ed swings. Hence, my 2k AP (or whatever value) on a 1H is worth less than my 2k AP on a 2H. Essentially that no amount of similar AP will cause a 1H and 2H to produce similar output. There will always be a significant gap. Are we talking past each other? I'm a little confused what you mean by normalization and WF having no purpose in the same sentence. I don't believe I said anything about WF being normalized? |
As far as I am aware, AP does not and never has affected 2h differently from 1h. You do not innately gain more damage from AP on a 2h than you do on a 1her. This is one of the main strengths of Dual-wield, though is largely counterbalanced by the offhand damage penalty and increased miss chance of DW.
I'm going to run through my understanding of attack power mechanics - this is not meant to be patronizing or condascending, I just want to lay out exactly what I mean.
Attack power affects white damage by the formula of AP/14 dps. This is to say, that 14 attack power gives 1 dps to each weapon you wield. If you are wielding a 2h, your weapon gains 1 dps. If you're dual-wielding, both weapons gain 1dps (obviously on the offhand this works out as 0.5dps, or 0.625 with DW spec, but it's still applied as a base 1 dps). For the purposes of auto-attack swings, this dps is converted into damage by multiplying with the weapon speed. This is *not* normalized. A 2.8 speed weapon gains 2.8 damage per hit, a 3.6 2h gains 3.6 damage per hit, and a 1.4 weapon gains 1.4damage per hit.
Windfury is a 20% chance to proc an extra attack, with a bonus attack power. That's a flat 20%, not a PPM based chance, so a slow weapon will naturally get less procs. It's effectively like having 20% more white swings in any given period. Now, the attack power will increase the damage of the windfury swings, but again, this is not normalized. Imagine that you have two warriors with different speed weapons that both do the same white damage. Now 'set aside' 20% of their damage. If their total damage is equal, then 20% of each person's damage must be equal too. This shows us the value of their WF damage pre-bonus AP. Now consider that for this 20%, both players AP is increased by the same bonus value. As we said earlier, AP adds DPS, and will add the same white dps regardless of weapon speed, so both totals will go up by the same amount.
You can prove this algebraically as I did earlier - the weapon speed term will drop out and the final result will be independent of speed.
As I said before, the reason WF benefits 2h more is simply that the DPS value of the 2h is higher than that on the 1h, on a ratio of approximately 130:100. The DW miss factor also affects it, but weapon speed does not. If you look at 1h only, a 1.4speed mainhand benefits equally as well as a 2.8speed one.
Edit:
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Originally Posted by Mjollnir
Normalization - WoWWiki - Your guide to the World of Warcraft is all I could find on this. Perhaps I am wrong. Can anyone confirm regular swing issue (explicit 'normal swings are not AP normalized')? I easily might have missed it
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AP normalization occurs for some special (yellow dmg) instant attacks. Windfury proc is an instant attack but is not considered a special (yellow dmg) attack. The proc's damage is not AP normalized. Regular swings are also not normalized. If regular melee swings were normalized, rogues would be using the fastest weapon possible in their main hand.
@ Moogul: Thank you for the clarification. I didn't play a melee dps in classic so these mechanics I neglected to learn in detail.
My previous post then is incorrect concerning the 'scaling' of AP. A static gap exists between 1H and 2H dmg that will not grow or shrink with AP.
My previous post then is incorrect concerning the 'scaling' of AP. A static gap exists between 1H and 2H dmg that will not grow or shrink with AP.
While wf isn't normalized, I do believe it counts as a special attack for the purposes of attack table. I can honestly never recall a windfury proc missing.
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Originally Posted by Voxx
While wf isn't normalized, I do believe it counts as a special attack for the purposes of attack table. I can honestly never recall a windfury proc missing.
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They're normal attacks yes, but for the purposes of the attack table are they considered special or normal? I can't recall a windfury proc missing or glancing, but I could be mistaken.
Never tested miss, pretty sure they do since they can glance though. I can look at a log something and see.
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Originally Posted by Liar
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What's worse, I already farmed another 2 for 2.4 which I won't be using anymore I guess. :/
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Originally Posted by Voxx
They're normal attacks yes, but for the purposes of the attack table are they considered special or normal? I can't recall a windfury proc missing or glancing, but I could be mistaken.
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Edited onPatch 2.3.3
I was looking up this thread for some good math on what enchant to use on OH/MH. I didn't find any solid math, people just seem to go with preference. Has anyone done some good math since? I'd be very interested in a comparison at high levels of gear, especially OH wise.
Also, I was wondering why people recommend the usage of same speed weapons for dual wield.
Also, I was wondering why people recommend the usage of same speed weapons for dual wield.
Last edited by Kaoz : 02/22/08 at 9:38 AM.
I believe the use of same speed weapons is promoted due to the increased chance your attacks will be synchronized thus enable you to get one more potentially flurried attack as the game cannot handle to distribute the flurried attack on only one of your 2 weapons when they actually hit at the same time.
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Originally Posted by Squish
I believe the use of same speed weapons is promoted due to the increased chance your attacks will be synchronized thus enable you to get one more potentially flurried attack as the game cannot handle to distribute the flurried attack on only one of your 2 weapons when they actually hit at the same time.
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Isn't flurry uptime near 100% anyways?
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Originally Posted by Kaoz
I get the idea. Has anyone figured out what kind of gain there is from double same speed weapons?
Isn't flurry uptime near 100% anyways? |
The best way to approximate flurry uptime (it's a bit more complicated than this) is 1-(1-c)^x where c is your crit chance, expressed as decimal (eg. 0.35 for 35%) and x is your average number of hits per flurry cycle, ie. 3 + your instants per 3 auto-attacks. 4 is a fairly standard number for X.
In that case, using a 35% crit rate you get an estimated uptime of: 0.821 or 82%
Using a 40% crit rate yields: 0.870 or 87%
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Originally Posted by Moogul
It depends on what you mean by 'near'. If you mean 90%+, then no, it's not.
The best way to approximate flurry uptime (it's a bit more complicated than this) is 1-(1-c)^x where c is your crit chance, expressed as decimal (eg. 0.35 for 35%) and x is your average number of hits per flurry cycle, ie. 3 + your instants per 3 auto-attacks. 4 is a fairly standard number for X. In that case, using a 35% crit rate you get an estimated uptime of: 0.821 or 82% Using a 40% crit rate yields: 0.870 or 87% |
Has anyone looked at the impact of resilience when comparing S3 items to normal PvE items? Resilience allows Enrage to proc off completely random damage that doesn't crit. Think Gorefiend/Shahraz. Vael would be the best example of what I'm thinking of.
With that in mind, I was also trying to think of a way to take steady damage that could proc Enrage. Is there a debuff or potion or anything of the sort?
On another note, does anyone disagree, with the item budget in mind, that armor penetration > expertise > crit > strength > attack power > hit?
Re-reading the old flurry mechanics thread it seems that same speed weapons go out of synch even without parry-speeded mainhand attacks, that and same speed weapons didnt see a large number of extra flurried attacks over what would be expected.
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
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Originally Posted by Kaoz
I'd argue 5 would be a standard number for X with windfury in mind, unless windfury consumes flurry charges. But even in that case, we still only reach 93% uptime
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While on this topic, this is yet another reason sword spec > axe spec. For simplicity's sake:
Swing with axe: axe spec yields a crit, simultaneously you proc WF. You now have 2 Flurry charges.
Swing with sword: sword spec yields an additional hit, simultaneously you proc WF. You still have 3 Flurry charges.
In both cases you do double damage. However a regularly procced sword proc aligned with WF (no crit) gives you double the damage but you retain all Flurry charges.
Edit: my warrior has 4/5 s3 (no shoulders). While I will admit the resilience is nice for survivability when at times things go a bit haywire, I cannot say I've seen random Enrage procs very much unless I was dps-tanking trash. The only reason why I had sought s3 was because I was stuck at t5 level so long, and s3 > t5 (esp since the t5 bonuses suck for DW). Basically: I wouldn't recommend s3 unless you don't have access to the pve equivalent. Too many stat points wasted on resil/stam/armor.
Last edited by Mjollnir : 02/22/08 at 10:34 AM.
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Originally Posted by Mjollnir
It does. Somewhere toward the middle of this thread this was cemented.
While on this topic, this is yet another reason sword spec > axe spec. For simplicity's sake: Swing with axe: axe spec yields a crit, simultaneously you proc WF. You now have 2 Flurry charges. Swing with sword: sword spec yields an additional hit, simultaneously you proc WF. You still have 3 Flurry charges. In both cases you do double damage. However a regularly procced sword proc aligned with WF (no crit) gives you double the damage but you retain all Flurry charges. |
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Originally Posted by Kaoz
I'd argue 5 would be a standard number for X with windfury in mind, unless windfury consumes flurry charges. But even in that case, we still only reach 93% uptime.
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Ignoring Windfury for now:
You Get 1/6 bloodthirsts per second, and 2/10 whirlwinds (since each hand hits), for approximately 0.4 specials per second. You get 1/mh and 1/oh auto attacks. A flurry cycle is going to be 3(1/mh + 1/0h) seconds long, or for 2 matched 2.6 speed weapons, 3.9seconds, for about 1.6 specials. However, due to flurry itself, the time is actually compressed - for a pair of 2.6 weapons it becomes 3.12 seconds, giving about 1.2 specials.
The fact that flurry uptime affects the ratio of instants:autoattacks which affects flurry uptime is one of the main things that makes flurry modeling difficult, but I think this is a good way of approximating it.
I personally don't raid with a feral druid in the melee group. We get an Enh shaman and sometimes a Ret Paladin, and the Enh shaman rarely twists, so I get +3% from the judgement and that puts my effective crit somewhere around 35%, which should put my flurry uptime somewhere around the low 80s. It's good, but it's not really near 100%.
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Originally Posted by Zalein
Anyone? =/
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For the combat logs, when I was doing testing I think I had about 100-200ms to the PTR. Executioner did not proc until about that time after the hit was in the log. The part with that screenshot I note also is the deep wound tick after a crit.
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Originally Posted by Mjollnir
I wasn't able to get access to the old forums where this was orginally pencilled in, but here is a recreated example that illustrates the benefits of WF for a 1H vs 2H.
Take standard widespread examples: s3 weapons. 1H stats: 2.60spd 187-349dmg 103.1dps 2H stats: 3.60spd 386-580dmg 134.2dps Things to remember: WF proc only happens on the MH while DWing and obviously on a 2H. Furthermore, attack power is normalized right around where these speeds register (been a while since remembering what the 3 speeds are for dagger, 1H, 2H but the general gist is we assume AP influence is equal due to normalization). We'll ignore flurry, chance to miss, other haste procs etc. We'll assume the DWing warrior will proc 5/5 Flurry more often but miss an amount that brings it equal to the 2H (MS/BF) procing 3/5 Flurry but never missing. Common denominator to match swings: 26 x 36 = 936. We'll say (for a nice chunk of time) we sample 93.6s of an encounter and the encounter behaves perfectly according to the law of averages. Napkin math if you will. 1H: Swings exactly 36 times inside this window. Avg hit is (187+349)/2 = 268. WF proc is .2 x 36 = 7.2 times inside this window. Normal dmg due to MH: 9648 Additional dmg due to WF proc: 1929.6 2H: Swings exactly 26 times inside this window. Avg hit is (386+580)/2 = 483. WF proc is .2 x 26 = 5.2 times inside this window. Normal dmg due to 2H: 12558 Additional dmg due to WF proc: 2511 Difference in gains between the 1H/2H: 43.45 / 56.54 Of course, if there are any issues with the math or I'm forcing the numbers in a certain way, please point it out. Noteworthy: this is for WF totem only. Arguably a 17/44 warrior will make more use of an Enh Sham overall than a 33/28 due to BT being the rage burn and it scaling directly with AP which the Enh Sham provides in bulk. |
All it comes down to is one simple thing: WF affects mainhand only. Ergo, you're comparing a ~100dps 1her against a ~130dps 2her, hence 2her wins. Simple. Done. The end.
The bit concerning AP and normalization was to indicate it would take a DW a disproportionate amount for their normal swing to outweigh the 2her.
And it took me about 5min on paper, so not really that long =P
And it took me about 5min on paper, so not really that long =P
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Originally Posted by Mjollnir
The bit concerning AP and normalization was to indicate it would take a DW a disproportionate amount for their normal swing to outweigh the 2her.
And it took me about 5min on paper, so not really that long =P |
Moogul, I realize you're knowledgeable on the topic. I'm not attempting to insult your intelligence. WF totem procs an additional swing without the usual wait.
This swing is a regular swing that is subject to crit, hit, miss and AP plays a role in boosting the dmg of a weapon. Normalization is used given that AP affects a 1H differently than a 2H. Normalization doesn't impact WF at all, agreed. I'm referring to the weapon swing.
Are you suggesting that the bonus AP from WF is directly applied to the procced swing? I don't know anything about this happening or not. My comment was concerning the value of the regular swings, and thus, the value of the procc'ed swings. Hence, my 2k AP (or whatever value) on a 1H is worth less than my 2k AP on a 2H. Essentially that no amount of similar AP will cause a 1H and 2H to produce similar output. There will always be a significant gap.
Are we talking past each other? I'm a little confused what you mean by normalization and WF having no purpose in the same sentence. I don't believe I said anything about WF being normalized?
This swing is a regular swing that is subject to crit, hit, miss and AP plays a role in boosting the dmg of a weapon. Normalization is used given that AP affects a 1H differently than a 2H. Normalization doesn't impact WF at all, agreed. I'm referring to the weapon swing.
Are you suggesting that the bonus AP from WF is directly applied to the procced swing? I don't know anything about this happening or not. My comment was concerning the value of the regular swings, and thus, the value of the procc'ed swings. Hence, my 2k AP (or whatever value) on a 1H is worth less than my 2k AP on a 2H. Essentially that no amount of similar AP will cause a 1H and 2H to produce similar output. There will always be a significant gap.
Are we talking past each other? I'm a little confused what you mean by normalization and WF having no purpose in the same sentence. I don't believe I said anything about WF being normalized?
AP is normalized on instant/special attacks, not regular swings, no?
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Originally Posted by Gaise
AP is normalized on instant/special attacks, not regular swings, no?
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Originally Posted by Mjollnir
Moogul, I realize you're knowledgeable on the topic. I'm not attempting to insult your intelligence. WF totem procs an additional swing without the usual wait.
This swing is a regular swing that is subject to crit, hit, miss and AP plays a role in boosting the dmg of a weapon. Normalization is used given that AP affects a 1H differently than a 2H. Normalization doesn't impact WF at all, agreed. I'm referring to the weapon swing. Are you suggesting that the bonus AP from WF is directly applied to the procced swing? I don't know anything about this happening or not. My comment was concerning the value of the regular swings, and thus, the value of the procc'ed swings. Hence, my 2k AP (or whatever value) on a 1H is worth less than my 2k AP on a 2H. Essentially that no amount of similar AP will cause a 1H and 2H to produce similar output. There will always be a significant gap. Are we talking past each other? I'm a little confused what you mean by normalization and WF having no purpose in the same sentence. I don't believe I said anything about WF being normalized? |
As far as I am aware, AP does not and never has affected 2h differently from 1h. You do not innately gain more damage from AP on a 2h than you do on a 1her. This is one of the main strengths of Dual-wield, though is largely counterbalanced by the offhand damage penalty and increased miss chance of DW.
I'm going to run through my understanding of attack power mechanics - this is not meant to be patronizing or condascending, I just want to lay out exactly what I mean.
Attack power affects white damage by the formula of AP/14 dps. This is to say, that 14 attack power gives 1 dps to each weapon you wield. If you are wielding a 2h, your weapon gains 1 dps. If you're dual-wielding, both weapons gain 1dps (obviously on the offhand this works out as 0.5dps, or 0.625 with DW spec, but it's still applied as a base 1 dps). For the purposes of auto-attack swings, this dps is converted into damage by multiplying with the weapon speed. This is *not* normalized. A 2.8 speed weapon gains 2.8 damage per hit, a 3.6 2h gains 3.6 damage per hit, and a 1.4 weapon gains 1.4damage per hit.
Windfury is a 20% chance to proc an extra attack, with a bonus attack power. That's a flat 20%, not a PPM based chance, so a slow weapon will naturally get less procs. It's effectively like having 20% more white swings in any given period. Now, the attack power will increase the damage of the windfury swings, but again, this is not normalized. Imagine that you have two warriors with different speed weapons that both do the same white damage. Now 'set aside' 20% of their damage. If their total damage is equal, then 20% of each person's damage must be equal too. This shows us the value of their WF damage pre-bonus AP. Now consider that for this 20%, both players AP is increased by the same bonus value. As we said earlier, AP adds DPS, and will add the same white dps regardless of weapon speed, so both totals will go up by the same amount.
You can prove this algebraically as I did earlier - the weapon speed term will drop out and the final result will be independent of speed.
As I said before, the reason WF benefits 2h more is simply that the DPS value of the 2h is higher than that on the 1h, on a ratio of approximately 130:100. The DW miss factor also affects it, but weapon speed does not. If you look at 1h only, a 1.4speed mainhand benefits equally as well as a 2.8speed one.
Edit:
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Originally Posted by Mjollnir
Normalization - WoWWiki - Your guide to the World of Warcraft is all I could find on this. Perhaps I am wrong. Can anyone confirm regular swing issue (explicit 'normal swings are not AP normalized')? I easily might have missed it
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AP normalization occurs for some special (yellow dmg) instant attacks. Windfury proc is an instant attack but is not considered a special (yellow dmg) attack. The proc's damage is not AP normalized. Regular swings are also not normalized. If regular melee swings were normalized, rogues would be using the fastest weapon possible in their main hand.
@ Moogul: Thank you for the clarification. I didn't play a melee dps in classic so these mechanics I neglected to learn in detail.
My previous post then is incorrect concerning the 'scaling' of AP. A static gap exists between 1H and 2H dmg that will not grow or shrink with AP.
My previous post then is incorrect concerning the 'scaling' of AP. A static gap exists between 1H and 2H dmg that will not grow or shrink with AP.
While wf isn't normalized, I do believe it counts as a special attack for the purposes of attack table. I can honestly never recall a windfury proc missing.
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Originally Posted by Voxx
While wf isn't normalized, I do believe it counts as a special attack for the purposes of attack table. I can honestly never recall a windfury proc missing.
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They're normal attacks yes, but for the purposes of the attack table are they considered special or normal? I can't recall a windfury proc missing or glancing, but I could be mistaken.
Never tested miss, pretty sure they do since they can glance though. I can look at a log something and see.
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Originally Posted by Liar
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What's worse, I already farmed another 2 for 2.4 which I won't be using anymore I guess. :/
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Originally Posted by Voxx
They're normal attacks yes, but for the purposes of the attack table are they considered special or normal? I can't recall a windfury proc missing or glancing, but I could be mistaken.
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Edited onPatch 2.3.3
I was looking up this thread for some good math on what enchant to use on OH/MH. I didn't find any solid math, people just seem to go with preference. Has anyone done some good math since? I'd be very interested in a comparison at high levels of gear, especially OH wise.
Also, I was wondering why people recommend the usage of same speed weapons for dual wield.
Also, I was wondering why people recommend the usage of same speed weapons for dual wield.
Last edited by Kaoz : 02/22/08 at 9:38 AM.
I believe the use of same speed weapons is promoted due to the increased chance your attacks will be synchronized thus enable you to get one more potentially flurried attack as the game cannot handle to distribute the flurried attack on only one of your 2 weapons when they actually hit at the same time.
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Originally Posted by Squish
I believe the use of same speed weapons is promoted due to the increased chance your attacks will be synchronized thus enable you to get one more potentially flurried attack as the game cannot handle to distribute the flurried attack on only one of your 2 weapons when they actually hit at the same time.
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Isn't flurry uptime near 100% anyways?
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Originally Posted by Kaoz
I get the idea. Has anyone figured out what kind of gain there is from double same speed weapons?
Isn't flurry uptime near 100% anyways? |
The best way to approximate flurry uptime (it's a bit more complicated than this) is 1-(1-c)^x where c is your crit chance, expressed as decimal (eg. 0.35 for 35%) and x is your average number of hits per flurry cycle, ie. 3 + your instants per 3 auto-attacks. 4 is a fairly standard number for X.
In that case, using a 35% crit rate you get an estimated uptime of: 0.821 or 82%
Using a 40% crit rate yields: 0.870 or 87%
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Originally Posted by Moogul
It depends on what you mean by 'near'. If you mean 90%+, then no, it's not.
The best way to approximate flurry uptime (it's a bit more complicated than this) is 1-(1-c)^x where c is your crit chance, expressed as decimal (eg. 0.35 for 35%) and x is your average number of hits per flurry cycle, ie. 3 + your instants per 3 auto-attacks. 4 is a fairly standard number for X. In that case, using a 35% crit rate you get an estimated uptime of: 0.821 or 82% Using a 40% crit rate yields: 0.870 or 87% |
Has anyone looked at the impact of resilience when comparing S3 items to normal PvE items? Resilience allows Enrage to proc off completely random damage that doesn't crit. Think Gorefiend/Shahraz. Vael would be the best example of what I'm thinking of.
With that in mind, I was also trying to think of a way to take steady damage that could proc Enrage. Is there a debuff or potion or anything of the sort?
On another note, does anyone disagree, with the item budget in mind, that armor penetration > expertise > crit > strength > attack power > hit?
Re-reading the old flurry mechanics thread it seems that same speed weapons go out of synch even without parry-speeded mainhand attacks, that and same speed weapons didnt see a large number of extra flurried attacks over what would be expected.
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
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Originally Posted by Kaoz
I'd argue 5 would be a standard number for X with windfury in mind, unless windfury consumes flurry charges. But even in that case, we still only reach 93% uptime
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While on this topic, this is yet another reason sword spec > axe spec. For simplicity's sake:
Swing with axe: axe spec yields a crit, simultaneously you proc WF. You now have 2 Flurry charges.
Swing with sword: sword spec yields an additional hit, simultaneously you proc WF. You still have 3 Flurry charges.
In both cases you do double damage. However a regularly procced sword proc aligned with WF (no crit) gives you double the damage but you retain all Flurry charges.
Edit: my warrior has 4/5 s3 (no shoulders). While I will admit the resilience is nice for survivability when at times things go a bit haywire, I cannot say I've seen random Enrage procs very much unless I was dps-tanking trash. The only reason why I had sought s3 was because I was stuck at t5 level so long, and s3 > t5 (esp since the t5 bonuses suck for DW). Basically: I wouldn't recommend s3 unless you don't have access to the pve equivalent. Too many stat points wasted on resil/stam/armor.
Last edited by Mjollnir : 02/22/08 at 10:34 AM.
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Originally Posted by Mjollnir
It does. Somewhere toward the middle of this thread this was cemented.
While on this topic, this is yet another reason sword spec > axe spec. For simplicity's sake: Swing with axe: axe spec yields a crit, simultaneously you proc WF. You now have 2 Flurry charges. Swing with sword: sword spec yields an additional hit, simultaneously you proc WF. You still have 3 Flurry charges. In both cases you do double damage. However a regularly procced sword proc aligned with WF (no crit) gives you double the damage but you retain all Flurry charges. |
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Originally Posted by Kaoz
I'd argue 5 would be a standard number for X with windfury in mind, unless windfury consumes flurry charges. But even in that case, we still only reach 93% uptime.
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Ignoring Windfury for now:
You Get 1/6 bloodthirsts per second, and 2/10 whirlwinds (since each hand hits), for approximately 0.4 specials per second. You get 1/mh and 1/oh auto attacks. A flurry cycle is going to be 3(1/mh + 1/0h) seconds long, or for 2 matched 2.6 speed weapons, 3.9seconds, for about 1.6 specials. However, due to flurry itself, the time is actually compressed - for a pair of 2.6 weapons it becomes 3.12 seconds, giving about 1.2 specials.
The fact that flurry uptime affects the ratio of instants:autoattacks which affects flurry uptime is one of the main things that makes flurry modeling difficult, but I think this is a good way of approximating it.
I personally don't raid with a feral druid in the melee group. We get an Enh shaman and sometimes a Ret Paladin, and the Enh shaman rarely twists, so I get +3% from the judgement and that puts my effective crit somewhere around 35%, which should put my flurry uptime somewhere around the low 80s. It's good, but it's not really near 100%.
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Originally Posted by Moogul
I seem to remember discussing this before and someone pasting a combat log which seemed to show that windfury consumes flurry charges.
Ignoring Windfury for now: You Get 1/6 bloodthirsts per second, and 2/10 whirlwinds (since each hand hits), for approximately 0.4 specials per second. You get 1/mh and 1/oh auto attacks. A flurry cycle is going to be 3(1/mh + 1/0h) seconds long, or for 2 matched 2.6 speed weapons, 3.9seconds, for about 1.6 specials. However, due to flurry itself, the time is actually compressed - for a pair of 2.6 weapons it becomes 3.12 seconds, giving about 1.2 specials. The fact that flurry uptime affects the ratio of instants:autoattacks which affects flurry uptime is one of the main things that makes flurry modeling difficult, but I think this is a good way of approximating it. I personally don't raid with a feral druid in the melee group. We get an Enh shaman and sometimes a Ret Paladin, and the Enh shaman rarely twists, so I get +3% from the judgement and that puts my effective crit somewhere around 35%, which should put my flurry uptime somewhere around the low 80s. It's good, but it's not really near 100%. |
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
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Originally Posted by Kaoz
I don't follow. Why doesn't the sword spec windfury consume flurry?
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Axe spec will crit yielding double the damage. Coupled with WF you lose the benefit of critting due to consumed Flurry.
Sword spec will proc yielding double the damage. Coupled with WF you lose no benefits unless it crits. However, if it crits, you do 4x your usual damage where axe only does 3x
swing(100%)+ss proc crit(200%)+WF(100%) = 400%
axe proc(200%)+WF(100%) = 300%
Edit: what I just posted has no bearing on WF totem come to think of it.
Last edited by Mjollnir : 02/22/08 at 11:04 AM.
You hadn't specified that the extra hit crit. Makes sense now.
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
I'd like to toss something out there that is perhaps off the current conversation track. A few pages back I posted in this thread (here, and here) seeking advice with my spec/rotations - at the time I was mace specced wielding a torch with some ArP but not stacking it heavily.
I've since had a number of gear upgrades and playstyle changes. I picked up a Cataclysm's Edge and went swords. I switched over to 4pc T6 with heavy ArP stacking. I've tried a 31/30 spec without Improved Slam and managed to get some fairly high DPS numbers (in the 1600's) simply by using HS at the right time and focussing on my proper rotations.
The biggest impact I noticed, though - and I apologise if i'm retreading ground here - is that a good execute phase basically defines what your final numbers look like on WWS. Well timed Death Wish, Recklessness, and the use of Haste Pots make an absolutely enormous difference. In my previous post in this thread, I was wondering how I get so handily beaten on meters? I discovered the answer was bad execute phases. I wasn't using my Death Wish right, I wasn't using Recklessness nor haste potions. My numbers shot up as soon as I started focussing on timing cooldowns for 19% and execute spam. I guess this is basic stuff to some but when I was Slam I tried to continue the rotation sub 19% as has been suggested and I didn't find it working for me.
This led me to try Improved Disciplines in a 31/30 spec with Improved Execute and 2pc t6, to extend the duration of Recklessness and make Execute as cheap as possible. I now feel that Improved Disciplines is actually an underrated talent. Typically there's about 15-20 minutes of travel and or trash between bosses, so I found that 2/3 and 3/3 both worked well for me. You have to "waste" at least two points somewhere to get to MS anyway, ever since they moved Weapon Mastery those two points went into Improved Intercept, which doesn't help my DPS one bit. Improved Disciplines does help, however trivially. Basically I tweaked for longer Recklessness Executes, and found that that did work.
Finally I settled on my current build: a 31/30 MS spec that has Improved Disciplines, Improved Execute, Improved Slam and Weapon Mastery. To get this I sacrificed a point in Sword Specialization (4/5), a point in Flurry (4/5) and Sweeping Strikes. I don't have Blood Frenzy and have yet to try it in this combination; I would be interested to see how it pans out, but it would drop me to 2/5 Flurry. By speccing into Improved Slam, I am able to sustain a high dps rotation until 19%, and by having Improved Disciplines, Improved Execute and 2pc t6, I activate 21 seconds of reckless cheap execute spam as soon as heroism is popped sub-19% with a haste pot thrown in to extend or add to the heroism. Using this spec, I have set some personal records on Gorefiend, just shy of 1800 last week in the melee dps group with an enhancement shaman, and similar this week in the MT group with a restoration shaman + feral druid w/drums of battle.
Not sure what else to say, really.. my goal in posting this, if anything, was to relate what seems to be working for me, in the hope that it might help others along. I feel that Improved Disciplines is a little underrated, maybe not if you're learning encounters because it won't be up every attempt anyway, but when pushing through a raid instance it helps to have it available for each boss fight and the extended duration is especially nice. Having both Improved Slam and Improved Execute is something that I find to be a lot more valuable in a practical sense, as i'm not tied to continuing the Slam rotation, but can change things up and fall back on simply keeping MS/WW/HS on cooldown or execute spam sub 19%.
I've since had a number of gear upgrades and playstyle changes. I picked up a Cataclysm's Edge and went swords. I switched over to 4pc T6 with heavy ArP stacking. I've tried a 31/30 spec without Improved Slam and managed to get some fairly high DPS numbers (in the 1600's) simply by using HS at the right time and focussing on my proper rotations.
The biggest impact I noticed, though - and I apologise if i'm retreading ground here - is that a good execute phase basically defines what your final numbers look like on WWS. Well timed Death Wish, Recklessness, and the use of Haste Pots make an absolutely enormous difference. In my previous post in this thread, I was wondering how I get so handily beaten on meters? I discovered the answer was bad execute phases. I wasn't using my Death Wish right, I wasn't using Recklessness nor haste potions. My numbers shot up as soon as I started focussing on timing cooldowns for 19% and execute spam. I guess this is basic stuff to some but when I was Slam I tried to continue the rotation sub 19% as has been suggested and I didn't find it working for me.
This led me to try Improved Disciplines in a 31/30 spec with Improved Execute and 2pc t6, to extend the duration of Recklessness and make Execute as cheap as possible. I now feel that Improved Disciplines is actually an underrated talent. Typically there's about 15-20 minutes of travel and or trash between bosses, so I found that 2/3 and 3/3 both worked well for me. You have to "waste" at least two points somewhere to get to MS anyway, ever since they moved Weapon Mastery those two points went into Improved Intercept, which doesn't help my DPS one bit. Improved Disciplines does help, however trivially. Basically I tweaked for longer Recklessness Executes, and found that that did work.
Finally I settled on my current build: a 31/30 MS spec that has Improved Disciplines, Improved Execute, Improved Slam and Weapon Mastery. To get this I sacrificed a point in Sword Specialization (4/5), a point in Flurry (4/5) and Sweeping Strikes. I don't have Blood Frenzy and have yet to try it in this combination; I would be interested to see how it pans out, but it would drop me to 2/5 Flurry. By speccing into Improved Slam, I am able to sustain a high dps rotation until 19%, and by having Improved Disciplines, Improved Execute and 2pc t6, I activate 21 seconds of reckless cheap execute spam as soon as heroism is popped sub-19% with a haste pot thrown in to extend or add to the heroism. Using this spec, I have set some personal records on Gorefiend, just shy of 1800 last week in the melee dps group with an enhancement shaman, and similar this week in the MT group with a restoration shaman + feral druid w/drums of battle.
Not sure what else to say, really.. my goal in posting this, if anything, was to relate what seems to be working for me, in the hope that it might help others along. I feel that Improved Disciplines is a little underrated, maybe not if you're learning encounters because it won't be up every attempt anyway, but when pushing through a raid instance it helps to have it available for each boss fight and the extended duration is especially nice. Having both Improved Slam and Improved Execute is something that I find to be a lot more valuable in a practical sense, as i'm not tied to continuing the Slam rotation, but can change things up and fall back on simply keeping MS/WW/HS on cooldown or execute spam sub 19%.
Last edited by Charsi : 02/22/08 at 3:01 PM. Reason: added links to prior posts
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
Firstly, I assume you already have a warrior spec'd for Blood Frenzy. Otherwise the taking 2 points out of Flurry and putting them in to Blood Frenzy would be a HUGE boost to raid DPS compared to the little amount of DPS that you would lose personally.
Secondly, you have Imp. Slam, 4/5 Sword Spec., 4/5 Flurry and no Sweeping Strikes? With a 3.5 speed sword? Yet you don't use Slam rotations anyway? So, you're spec'd towards maximizing non-Slam rotation based DPS but you put 2 points in to Imp. Slam and not Flurry or Sweeping Strikes (which is a huge damage increase on any AoE fight).
Could you clarify, please?
Secondly, you have Imp. Slam, 4/5 Sword Spec., 4/5 Flurry and no Sweeping Strikes? With a 3.5 speed sword? Yet you don't use Slam rotations anyway? So, you're spec'd towards maximizing non-Slam rotation based DPS but you put 2 points in to Imp. Slam and not Flurry or Sweeping Strikes (which is a huge damage increase on any AoE fight).
Could you clarify, please?
Last edited by Gaise : 02/22/08 at 11:36 AM. Reason: Me no spell so good.
I wouldn't call Imp. Intercept "no DPS." It's clearly a DPS increase in the same manner as run speed increases. I'm not going to say that it's a lot DPS or the best choice, just that it isn't as bad as you imply.
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
At the moment we don't have a Blood Frenzy warrior but will on progression content. That warrior could end up being me.
I use Slam rotations until 19% then, since I usually get Heroism around that time (depending on the fight, sometimes it's earlier than that) I revert to straight reckless execute. The number of uses for Sweeping Strikes on a boss fight (that i've seen; sunwell notwithstanding) is minimal. I miss SS a great deal on Hyjal clears, but.. hey, it's trash.
Perhaps I didn't word my post right, what I meant to relate was that originally I was slam spec, and got reasonable DPS but was consistently beaten; I tried "tweaking for execute" and discovered it stronger with well timed cooldowns but bad if you dont pop everything for execution. Finally i'm trying a marriage of the two specs, improved slam with which I do the standard rotation for sustained dps, then disciplines+imp.execute for execute phase spam and abandonment of the slam rotation (under the right conditions). It's sort of a shot at best of both worlds that seems to be working out for me.
I use Slam rotations until 19% then, since I usually get Heroism around that time (depending on the fight, sometimes it's earlier than that) I revert to straight reckless execute. The number of uses for Sweeping Strikes on a boss fight (that i've seen; sunwell notwithstanding) is minimal. I miss SS a great deal on Hyjal clears, but.. hey, it's trash.
Perhaps I didn't word my post right, what I meant to relate was that originally I was slam spec, and got reasonable DPS but was consistently beaten; I tried "tweaking for execute" and discovered it stronger with well timed cooldowns but bad if you dont pop everything for execution. Finally i'm trying a marriage of the two specs, improved slam with which I do the standard rotation for sustained dps, then disciplines+imp.execute for execute phase spam and abandonment of the slam rotation (under the right conditions). It's sort of a shot at best of both worlds that seems to be working out for me.
Last edited by Charsi : 02/22/08 at 12:11 PM. Reason: clarification
Kind of on that topic, the last couple of days I've been considering the viability of a sword-spec DW build.
Now, I know most people's first reaction is going to be something along the lines of 'lolwut?' People looked at them a long time ago when TBC first came out, and it seemed to be fairly clear that Rampage and Imp Zerker stance etc. came out ahead. However, from what I remember of these comparisons, they were all before the Death Wish change. Now, I have to admit that I absolutely love Death Wish, it's one of my favourite talents and I hate that they moved it, but it gave me the idea to re-evaluate a 26/35 build. In these days of cooldown stacking and short fights, Death Wish seems like it should be stronger than ever. Bloodlust + Death Wish + Recklessness + Haste Potion should be good times. The question is, is it enough to make up for the lost damage of the fury talents, and (importantly) can it deal with the lost threat reduction from imp Zerker Stance?
The way I see it, compared to a 17/44 build, you lose: Rampage, 5/5 Imp Zerker Stance, and then 3 extra talent points (that will vary from person to person - for me my last 3 points are 2 precision, 1 commanding presence).
You gain: 5/5 Sword Specialization, Death Wish, and essentially 3 worthless talent points (unless you somehow manage to work in overpower weaving).
Well, already it doesn't look that promising, but I think it bears investigating. In some simple algebra (what seems to be referred to as 'napkin maths' around here these days) yesterday, I seemed to find that 5/5 sword spec is considerably better DPS from your auto-attacks than improved zerker stance, assuming that you use a fast offhand. Since offhand sword procs cause a mh attack, you want a really slow MH and a realy fast OH (so luckily, Warglaives should be *ideal* for this). This will lower your WW damage, but not by that much. I am still to calculate how IBS and SS affect specials, but I'm fairly certain (due to bloodthirst) that IBS will come out ahead, but overall I would bet on sword spec being a greater overall damage boost.
That's all well and good, but it still leaves Death Wish squaring off against Rampage (an excellent talent no matter what some might say) and 3 other talent points.
Of course, comparing all this is going to take a much more detailed investigation, one which I unfortunately don't have time for right now. My gut instinct is that 17/44 is going to come out ahead, but probably not by much, and on fights with a lot of movement, or very short fights (where average DW uptime is higher), 26/35 could take the lead.
Has anyone else done any research or practice with this recently, or perhaps even tried it? I have a few swords available to me ([Talon of Azshara], [Akil'zon's Talonblade] and [Heartless]), so I might give it a run sometime and see how it plays. It's probably a fool's crusade, but it'd be nice to think there's a decent alternative to the cookie cutter.
Now, I know most people's first reaction is going to be something along the lines of 'lolwut?' People looked at them a long time ago when TBC first came out, and it seemed to be fairly clear that Rampage and Imp Zerker stance etc. came out ahead. However, from what I remember of these comparisons, they were all before the Death Wish change. Now, I have to admit that I absolutely love Death Wish, it's one of my favourite talents and I hate that they moved it, but it gave me the idea to re-evaluate a 26/35 build. In these days of cooldown stacking and short fights, Death Wish seems like it should be stronger than ever. Bloodlust + Death Wish + Recklessness + Haste Potion should be good times. The question is, is it enough to make up for the lost damage of the fury talents, and (importantly) can it deal with the lost threat reduction from imp Zerker Stance?
The way I see it, compared to a 17/44 build, you lose: Rampage, 5/5 Imp Zerker Stance, and then 3 extra talent points (that will vary from person to person - for me my last 3 points are 2 precision, 1 commanding presence).
You gain: 5/5 Sword Specialization, Death Wish, and essentially 3 worthless talent points (unless you somehow manage to work in overpower weaving).
Well, already it doesn't look that promising, but I think it bears investigating. In some simple algebra (what seems to be referred to as 'napkin maths' around here these days) yesterday, I seemed to find that 5/5 sword spec is considerably better DPS from your auto-attacks than improved zerker stance, assuming that you use a fast offhand. Since offhand sword procs cause a mh attack, you want a really slow MH and a realy fast OH (so luckily, Warglaives should be *ideal* for this). This will lower your WW damage, but not by that much. I am still to calculate how IBS and SS affect specials, but I'm fairly certain (due to bloodthirst) that IBS will come out ahead, but overall I would bet on sword spec being a greater overall damage boost.
That's all well and good, but it still leaves Death Wish squaring off against Rampage (an excellent talent no matter what some might say) and 3 other talent points.
Of course, comparing all this is going to take a much more detailed investigation, one which I unfortunately don't have time for right now. My gut instinct is that 17/44 is going to come out ahead, but probably not by much, and on fights with a lot of movement, or very short fights (where average DW uptime is higher), 26/35 could take the lead.
Has anyone else done any research or practice with this recently, or perhaps even tried it? I have a few swords available to me ([Talon of Azshara], [Akil'zon's Talonblade] and [Heartless]), so I might give it a run sometime and see how it plays. It's probably a fool's crusade, but it'd be nice to think there's a decent alternative to the cookie cutter.
Moogul, I asked that same question a while back, here: [Warrior] Future of a DPS Warrior
and it was answered 3 posts down by Perinon, but no one gave a numbers comparison, and I was too intent on trying out 17/44 for myself to consider sword spec (running numbers, specing it for a week, etc)
and it was answered 3 posts down by Perinon, but no one gave a numbers comparison, and I was too intent on trying out 17/44 for myself to consider sword spec (running numbers, specing it for a week, etc)
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Originally Posted by Charsi
I use Slam rotations until 19% then, since I usually get Heroism around that time (depending on the fight, sometimes it's earlier than that) I revert to straight reckless execute.
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And do you keep executing or go back to your normal slam rotation after reck and dw are down?
And, wouldn't 4/5 2h spec + 5/5 sword spec give you a bit more dmg just from the rage that you get from the one percent extra attacks?
I ran with sword spec fury up until the beginning of T6 content. At that point the AP value of imp zerk and rampage combined just becomes too powerful to pass up. We are looking at upwards of 500 buffed attack power lost. Its still a very fun spec, and the burst possibilities of DW with blood lust and sword procs is pretty intense. I think its actaully probably a dps increase around the t5 level still, but once you get past that I can't see it being more then a fun toy.
Also, remember that you're trading burst dps for lack of agro management for over all increased threat. So, although most of us don't have threat issues anymore, its something to be aware of when considering the spec.
Also, remember that you're trading burst dps for lack of agro management for over all increased threat. So, although most of us don't have threat issues anymore, its something to be aware of when considering the spec.
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Originally Posted by Moogul
Kind of on that topic, the last couple of days I've been considering the viability of a sword-spec DW build.
Now, I know most people's first reaction is going to be something along the lines of 'lolwut?' People looked at them a long time ago when TBC first came out, and it seemed to be fairly clear that Rampage and Imp Zerker stance etc. came out ahead. However, from what I remember of these comparisons, they were all before the Death Wish change. Now, I have to admit that I absolutely love Death Wish, it's one of my favourite talents and I hate that they moved it, but it gave me the idea to re-evaluate a 26/35 build. In these days of cooldown stacking and short fights, Death Wish seems like it should be stronger than ever. Bloodlust + Death Wish + Recklessness + Haste Potion should be good times. The question is, is it enough to make up for the lost damage of the fury talents, and (importantly) can it deal with the lost threat reduction from imp Zerker Stance? The way I see it, compared to a 17/44 build, you lose: Rampage, 5/5 Imp Zerker Stance, and then 3 extra talent points (that will vary from person to person - for me my last 3 points are 2 precision, 1 commanding presence). You gain: 5/5 Sword Specialization, Death Wish, and essentially 3 worthless talent points (unless you somehow manage to work in overpower weaving). Well, already it doesn't look that promising, but I think it bears investigating. In some simple algebra (what seems to be referred to as 'napkin maths' around here these days) yesterday, I seemed to find that 5/5 sword spec is considerably better DPS from your auto-attacks than improved zerker stance, assuming that you use a fast offhand. Since offhand sword procs cause a mh attack, you want a really slow MH and a realy fast OH (so luckily, Warglaives should be *ideal* for this). This will lower your WW damage, but not by that much. I am still to calculate how IBS and SS affect specials, but I'm fairly certain (due to bloodthirst) that IBS will come out ahead, but overall I would bet on sword spec being a greater overall damage boost. That's all well and good, but it still leaves Death Wish squaring off against Rampage (an excellent talent no matter what some might say) and 3 other talent points. Of course, comparing all this is going to take a much more detailed investigation, one which I unfortunately don't have time for right now. My gut instinct is that 17/44 is going to come out ahead, but probably not by much, and on fights with a lot of movement, or very short fights (where average DW uptime is higher), 26/35 could take the lead. Has anyone else done any research or practice with this recently, or perhaps even tried it? I have a few swords available to me ([Talon of Azshara], [Akil'zon's Talonblade] and [Heartless]), so I might give it a run sometime and see how it plays. It's probably a fool's crusade, but it'd be nice to think there's a decent alternative to the cookie cutter. |
I was thinking of Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft, with dw warglaives and only auto attacking heroic striking and maybe whirlwinding but trying to bloodthrist when windfury procs to make up for the ap i'm missing. I dont know if it is viable at all or if it maybe is but threat would be an issue but someone needs to find out!!! THIS COULD BE GROUND BREAKING
What ranged slot item?
Hey guys, I know this might be a little off-topic at the moment, but I've asked for help here before, so I'll try again 
I've got a bit of a dilemma at the moment, and my question is: what ranged weapon should I use? Yesterday I got [Ancient Amani Longbow] from Zul'jin, and my other ranged slot item is [Vengeful Gladiator's War Edge].
When I saw how much crit I lost, I started wondering if it was a wise swap from my side, and I'd love to hear your constructive thoughts about it. Thanks in advance, Zonekiller.
I've got a bit of a dilemma at the moment, and my question is: what ranged weapon should I use? Yesterday I got [Ancient Amani Longbow] from Zul'jin, and my other ranged slot item is [Vengeful Gladiator's War Edge].
When I saw how much crit I lost, I started wondering if it was a wise swap from my side, and I'd love to hear your constructive thoughts about it. Thanks in advance, Zonekiller.
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Originally Posted by rhoxx
only auto attacking heroic striking and maybe whirlwinding but trying to bloodthrist when windfury procs to make up for the ap i'm missing.
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Originally Posted by zonekiller
Hey guys, I know this might be a little off-topic at the moment, but I've asked for help here before, so I'll try again
I've got a bit of a dilemma at the moment, and my question is: what ranged weapon should I use? Yesterday I got [Ancient Amani Longbow] from Zul'jin, and my other ranged slot item is [Vengeful Gladiator's War Edge]. When I saw how much crit I lost, I started wondering if it was a wise swap from my side, and I'd love to hear your constructive thoughts about it. Thanks in advance, Zonekiller. |
you wouldnt be bloodthirsting on wf procs because you dont have rage, but then if you specced 26/35 and just dpsed the same you do as 17/44 would is still be viable?
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Originally Posted by rhoxx
you wouldnt be bloodthirsting on wf procs because you dont have rage
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26/35 Might be a nice spec, I think in the end though it will fall short of 17/44 on most fight except the ones where short CD's have a big impact on the fight (Akama & Gorefiend).
It would be intresting to see how 27/44 would work in WoTLK though, unless they give us some sort of sick 51 pointer that pretty much makes Swordspec obsolete.
when windfury procs you gain 500 or 600 ap? dont remember :P, for like 1 second and you can bloodthirst in that time
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Originally Posted by Eledorian
If the current crit displayed on your armory (27.94%) is battlestance I wouldn't worry too much. Your crit will go up as you gather more BT loot.
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Also, reading the posts above about 26/35 spec, could anyone link that spec please?
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Originally Posted by zonekiller
My crit is indeed 27,94%, thanks for your help=)
Also, reading the posts above about 26/35 spec, could anyone link that spec please? |
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
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Originally Posted by Warlike
Charsi, what weapons do you use during execute range?
And do you keep executing or go back to your normal slam rotation after reck and dw are down? And, wouldn't 4/5 2h spec + 5/5 sword spec give you a bit more dmg just from the rage that you get from the one percent extra attacks? |
As for 4/5 2h spec + 5/5 sword spec, I hadn't sat down and run any numbers on it tbh. My thoughts were that a constant +1% damage would be better, as the missing point out of sword specialization hasn't been something I really "felt" in any detrimental way. (That is of course subjective and anecdotal.) When you look at WWS parses like Gorefiend I get less than 10 sword specialization procs per fight - is an additional 1% chance going to give me even one extra proc over a fight of that length? If not, what am I getting for my talent point spent.. an extra proc or two over the course of a night?
Regarding 26/35.. what are the extra 4 points above and beyond Bloodthirst in Fury getting you, are they that important, and can they be better spent in Arms, eg Improved Disciplines for longer Recklessness that might tip the favour towards this spec in shorter parses?
Last edited by Charsi : 02/23/08 at 8:39 AM.
the 4 points are for 5/5 dw spec and 3/3 percision
can anyone like theorycraft 26/35 or something :P so we can know if it works or has anyone tried it before?
can anyone like theorycraft 26/35 or something :P so we can know if it works or has anyone tried it before?
I've recently switched from fury to arms with a CE and blood frenzy, and I was wondering what the consensus is on the best dps rotation with slam. Sorry for asking but I can't make the search work for my advantage. I've put out some competitive numbers, mostly cause my gear is near the top arms gear around, but I was wondering if I should be slamming after every white hit or not. And what to do if/when I'm not slamming. Also worthy of note is I have relatively high ping to server, being in the southern hemisphere, so is there a different spec I could use that still had blood frenzy but skipped slam and had comparable performance?
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
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Originally Posted by rhoxx
the 4 points are for 5/5 dw spec and 3/3 percision
can anyone like theorycraft 26/35 or something :P so we can know if it works or has anyone tried it before? |
For Sword Spec to come out ahead, you want a) A pair of Warglaives, b) quite a bit of +hit, and c) to spam hamstring in between BT and WW.
However, under those circumstances, my simple modelling showed that Sword Spec would come out ahead, and this is before including the benefit of more procs (windfury, executioner, DST etc.) from having sword spec, and also ignoring the rage bonus - since all the bonus damage from sword spec gives rage, whereas a lot of the bonus damage from IBS is on yellow damage and so wont.
I know a few people have mentioned using spamstring to increase flurry rate and other procs, I think with Sword Spec it is a viable way to go, and means that even with worse weapons, sword spec will still be competitive with IBS.
The question now is how effective is Death wish? I guess I should try to play around with Grim's spreadsheet, I think just averaging it's affect by uptime is going to be really underselling it - when you time it with recklessness and bloodlust it will be a big boost.
I'm thinking of trying out 26/35 tomorrow in Hyjal/BT since I'll have to respec from PvP anyway, I'll let you know how it goes.
For those wondering, this is the build that I would use (Woot, Stun Resist for Kaz'rogal!)
Update!
I added Windfury totem into the calculations and everything has changed! Sword Spec is now *better* than Improved Zerker stance in pretty much _all_ sensible gear loadouts (but using a fast offhand). In a setup tailored to Sword Spec (Warglaives, decent amount of +hit) it does more than 30dps more the with IBS.
Once again I'm intrigued, and really looking forward to trying this out. Also I really want Warglaives more than ever :-/
Last edited by Moogul : 02/23/08 at 11:07 AM.
This is starting to look more and more interesting to me, considering I should have access to the s3 main hand soon, and the s3 offhand is a LOT cheaper than another main hand that I would have had to get :P more theorycrafting Moogul and keep us posted!
I will try out tomorrow in hyjal with 2xS3 swords and ill tell ya how i go
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Originally Posted by Moogul
I seem to remember discussing this before and someone pasting a combat log which seemed to show that windfury consumes flurry charges.
Ignoring Windfury for now: You Get 1/6 bloodthirsts per second, and 2/10 whirlwinds (since each hand hits), for approximately 0.4 specials per second. You get 1/mh and 1/oh auto attacks. A flurry cycle is going to be 3(1/mh + 1/0h) seconds long, or for 2 matched 2.6 speed weapons, 3.9seconds, for about 1.6 specials. However, due to flurry itself, the time is actually compressed - for a pair of 2.6 weapons it becomes 3.12 seconds, giving about 1.2 specials. The fact that flurry uptime affects the ratio of instants:autoattacks which affects flurry uptime is one of the main things that makes flurry modeling difficult, but I think this is a good way of approximating it. I personally don't raid with a feral druid in the melee group. We get an Enh shaman and sometimes a Ret Paladin, and the Enh shaman rarely twists, so I get +3% from the judgement and that puts my effective crit somewhere around 35%, which should put my flurry uptime somewhere around the low 80s. It's good, but it's not really near 100%. |
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
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Originally Posted by Kaoz
I don't follow. Why doesn't the sword spec windfury consume flurry?
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Axe spec will crit yielding double the damage. Coupled with WF you lose the benefit of critting due to consumed Flurry.
Sword spec will proc yielding double the damage. Coupled with WF you lose no benefits unless it crits. However, if it crits, you do 4x your usual damage where axe only does 3x
swing(100%)+ss proc crit(200%)+WF(100%) = 400%
axe proc(200%)+WF(100%) = 300%
Edit: what I just posted has no bearing on WF totem come to think of it.
Last edited by Mjollnir : 02/22/08 at 11:04 AM.
You hadn't specified that the extra hit crit. Makes sense now.
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
I'd like to toss something out there that is perhaps off the current conversation track. A few pages back I posted in this thread (here, and here) seeking advice with my spec/rotations - at the time I was mace specced wielding a torch with some ArP but not stacking it heavily.
I've since had a number of gear upgrades and playstyle changes. I picked up a Cataclysm's Edge and went swords. I switched over to 4pc T6 with heavy ArP stacking. I've tried a 31/30 spec without Improved Slam and managed to get some fairly high DPS numbers (in the 1600's) simply by using HS at the right time and focussing on my proper rotations.
The biggest impact I noticed, though - and I apologise if i'm retreading ground here - is that a good execute phase basically defines what your final numbers look like on WWS. Well timed Death Wish, Recklessness, and the use of Haste Pots make an absolutely enormous difference. In my previous post in this thread, I was wondering how I get so handily beaten on meters? I discovered the answer was bad execute phases. I wasn't using my Death Wish right, I wasn't using Recklessness nor haste potions. My numbers shot up as soon as I started focussing on timing cooldowns for 19% and execute spam. I guess this is basic stuff to some but when I was Slam I tried to continue the rotation sub 19% as has been suggested and I didn't find it working for me.
This led me to try Improved Disciplines in a 31/30 spec with Improved Execute and 2pc t6, to extend the duration of Recklessness and make Execute as cheap as possible. I now feel that Improved Disciplines is actually an underrated talent. Typically there's about 15-20 minutes of travel and or trash between bosses, so I found that 2/3 and 3/3 both worked well for me. You have to "waste" at least two points somewhere to get to MS anyway, ever since they moved Weapon Mastery those two points went into Improved Intercept, which doesn't help my DPS one bit. Improved Disciplines does help, however trivially. Basically I tweaked for longer Recklessness Executes, and found that that did work.
Finally I settled on my current build: a 31/30 MS spec that has Improved Disciplines, Improved Execute, Improved Slam and Weapon Mastery. To get this I sacrificed a point in Sword Specialization (4/5), a point in Flurry (4/5) and Sweeping Strikes. I don't have Blood Frenzy and have yet to try it in this combination; I would be interested to see how it pans out, but it would drop me to 2/5 Flurry. By speccing into Improved Slam, I am able to sustain a high dps rotation until 19%, and by having Improved Disciplines, Improved Execute and 2pc t6, I activate 21 seconds of reckless cheap execute spam as soon as heroism is popped sub-19% with a haste pot thrown in to extend or add to the heroism. Using this spec, I have set some personal records on Gorefiend, just shy of 1800 last week in the melee dps group with an enhancement shaman, and similar this week in the MT group with a restoration shaman + feral druid w/drums of battle.
Not sure what else to say, really.. my goal in posting this, if anything, was to relate what seems to be working for me, in the hope that it might help others along. I feel that Improved Disciplines is a little underrated, maybe not if you're learning encounters because it won't be up every attempt anyway, but when pushing through a raid instance it helps to have it available for each boss fight and the extended duration is especially nice. Having both Improved Slam and Improved Execute is something that I find to be a lot more valuable in a practical sense, as i'm not tied to continuing the Slam rotation, but can change things up and fall back on simply keeping MS/WW/HS on cooldown or execute spam sub 19%.
I've since had a number of gear upgrades and playstyle changes. I picked up a Cataclysm's Edge and went swords. I switched over to 4pc T6 with heavy ArP stacking. I've tried a 31/30 spec without Improved Slam and managed to get some fairly high DPS numbers (in the 1600's) simply by using HS at the right time and focussing on my proper rotations.
The biggest impact I noticed, though - and I apologise if i'm retreading ground here - is that a good execute phase basically defines what your final numbers look like on WWS. Well timed Death Wish, Recklessness, and the use of Haste Pots make an absolutely enormous difference. In my previous post in this thread, I was wondering how I get so handily beaten on meters? I discovered the answer was bad execute phases. I wasn't using my Death Wish right, I wasn't using Recklessness nor haste potions. My numbers shot up as soon as I started focussing on timing cooldowns for 19% and execute spam. I guess this is basic stuff to some but when I was Slam I tried to continue the rotation sub 19% as has been suggested and I didn't find it working for me.
This led me to try Improved Disciplines in a 31/30 spec with Improved Execute and 2pc t6, to extend the duration of Recklessness and make Execute as cheap as possible. I now feel that Improved Disciplines is actually an underrated talent. Typically there's about 15-20 minutes of travel and or trash between bosses, so I found that 2/3 and 3/3 both worked well for me. You have to "waste" at least two points somewhere to get to MS anyway, ever since they moved Weapon Mastery those two points went into Improved Intercept, which doesn't help my DPS one bit. Improved Disciplines does help, however trivially. Basically I tweaked for longer Recklessness Executes, and found that that did work.
Finally I settled on my current build: a 31/30 MS spec that has Improved Disciplines, Improved Execute, Improved Slam and Weapon Mastery. To get this I sacrificed a point in Sword Specialization (4/5), a point in Flurry (4/5) and Sweeping Strikes. I don't have Blood Frenzy and have yet to try it in this combination; I would be interested to see how it pans out, but it would drop me to 2/5 Flurry. By speccing into Improved Slam, I am able to sustain a high dps rotation until 19%, and by having Improved Disciplines, Improved Execute and 2pc t6, I activate 21 seconds of reckless cheap execute spam as soon as heroism is popped sub-19% with a haste pot thrown in to extend or add to the heroism. Using this spec, I have set some personal records on Gorefiend, just shy of 1800 last week in the melee dps group with an enhancement shaman, and similar this week in the MT group with a restoration shaman + feral druid w/drums of battle.
Not sure what else to say, really.. my goal in posting this, if anything, was to relate what seems to be working for me, in the hope that it might help others along. I feel that Improved Disciplines is a little underrated, maybe not if you're learning encounters because it won't be up every attempt anyway, but when pushing through a raid instance it helps to have it available for each boss fight and the extended duration is especially nice. Having both Improved Slam and Improved Execute is something that I find to be a lot more valuable in a practical sense, as i'm not tied to continuing the Slam rotation, but can change things up and fall back on simply keeping MS/WW/HS on cooldown or execute spam sub 19%.
Last edited by Charsi : 02/22/08 at 3:01 PM. Reason: added links to prior posts
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
Firstly, I assume you already have a warrior spec'd for Blood Frenzy. Otherwise the taking 2 points out of Flurry and putting them in to Blood Frenzy would be a HUGE boost to raid DPS compared to the little amount of DPS that you would lose personally.
Secondly, you have Imp. Slam, 4/5 Sword Spec., 4/5 Flurry and no Sweeping Strikes? With a 3.5 speed sword? Yet you don't use Slam rotations anyway? So, you're spec'd towards maximizing non-Slam rotation based DPS but you put 2 points in to Imp. Slam and not Flurry or Sweeping Strikes (which is a huge damage increase on any AoE fight).
Could you clarify, please?
Secondly, you have Imp. Slam, 4/5 Sword Spec., 4/5 Flurry and no Sweeping Strikes? With a 3.5 speed sword? Yet you don't use Slam rotations anyway? So, you're spec'd towards maximizing non-Slam rotation based DPS but you put 2 points in to Imp. Slam and not Flurry or Sweeping Strikes (which is a huge damage increase on any AoE fight).
Could you clarify, please?
Last edited by Gaise : 02/22/08 at 11:36 AM. Reason: Me no spell so good.
I wouldn't call Imp. Intercept "no DPS." It's clearly a DPS increase in the same manner as run speed increases. I'm not going to say that it's a lot DPS or the best choice, just that it isn't as bad as you imply.
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
At the moment we don't have a Blood Frenzy warrior but will on progression content. That warrior could end up being me.
I use Slam rotations until 19% then, since I usually get Heroism around that time (depending on the fight, sometimes it's earlier than that) I revert to straight reckless execute. The number of uses for Sweeping Strikes on a boss fight (that i've seen; sunwell notwithstanding) is minimal. I miss SS a great deal on Hyjal clears, but.. hey, it's trash.
Perhaps I didn't word my post right, what I meant to relate was that originally I was slam spec, and got reasonable DPS but was consistently beaten; I tried "tweaking for execute" and discovered it stronger with well timed cooldowns but bad if you dont pop everything for execution. Finally i'm trying a marriage of the two specs, improved slam with which I do the standard rotation for sustained dps, then disciplines+imp.execute for execute phase spam and abandonment of the slam rotation (under the right conditions). It's sort of a shot at best of both worlds that seems to be working out for me.
I use Slam rotations until 19% then, since I usually get Heroism around that time (depending on the fight, sometimes it's earlier than that) I revert to straight reckless execute. The number of uses for Sweeping Strikes on a boss fight (that i've seen; sunwell notwithstanding) is minimal. I miss SS a great deal on Hyjal clears, but.. hey, it's trash.
Perhaps I didn't word my post right, what I meant to relate was that originally I was slam spec, and got reasonable DPS but was consistently beaten; I tried "tweaking for execute" and discovered it stronger with well timed cooldowns but bad if you dont pop everything for execution. Finally i'm trying a marriage of the two specs, improved slam with which I do the standard rotation for sustained dps, then disciplines+imp.execute for execute phase spam and abandonment of the slam rotation (under the right conditions). It's sort of a shot at best of both worlds that seems to be working out for me.
Last edited by Charsi : 02/22/08 at 12:11 PM. Reason: clarification
Kind of on that topic, the last couple of days I've been considering the viability of a sword-spec DW build.
Now, I know most people's first reaction is going to be something along the lines of 'lolwut?' People looked at them a long time ago when TBC first came out, and it seemed to be fairly clear that Rampage and Imp Zerker stance etc. came out ahead. However, from what I remember of these comparisons, they were all before the Death Wish change. Now, I have to admit that I absolutely love Death Wish, it's one of my favourite talents and I hate that they moved it, but it gave me the idea to re-evaluate a 26/35 build. In these days of cooldown stacking and short fights, Death Wish seems like it should be stronger than ever. Bloodlust + Death Wish + Recklessness + Haste Potion should be good times. The question is, is it enough to make up for the lost damage of the fury talents, and (importantly) can it deal with the lost threat reduction from imp Zerker Stance?
The way I see it, compared to a 17/44 build, you lose: Rampage, 5/5 Imp Zerker Stance, and then 3 extra talent points (that will vary from person to person - for me my last 3 points are 2 precision, 1 commanding presence).
You gain: 5/5 Sword Specialization, Death Wish, and essentially 3 worthless talent points (unless you somehow manage to work in overpower weaving).
Well, already it doesn't look that promising, but I think it bears investigating. In some simple algebra (what seems to be referred to as 'napkin maths' around here these days) yesterday, I seemed to find that 5/5 sword spec is considerably better DPS from your auto-attacks than improved zerker stance, assuming that you use a fast offhand. Since offhand sword procs cause a mh attack, you want a really slow MH and a realy fast OH (so luckily, Warglaives should be *ideal* for this). This will lower your WW damage, but not by that much. I am still to calculate how IBS and SS affect specials, but I'm fairly certain (due to bloodthirst) that IBS will come out ahead, but overall I would bet on sword spec being a greater overall damage boost.
That's all well and good, but it still leaves Death Wish squaring off against Rampage (an excellent talent no matter what some might say) and 3 other talent points.
Of course, comparing all this is going to take a much more detailed investigation, one which I unfortunately don't have time for right now. My gut instinct is that 17/44 is going to come out ahead, but probably not by much, and on fights with a lot of movement, or very short fights (where average DW uptime is higher), 26/35 could take the lead.
Has anyone else done any research or practice with this recently, or perhaps even tried it? I have a few swords available to me ([Talon of Azshara], [Akil'zon's Talonblade] and [Heartless]), so I might give it a run sometime and see how it plays. It's probably a fool's crusade, but it'd be nice to think there's a decent alternative to the cookie cutter.
Now, I know most people's first reaction is going to be something along the lines of 'lolwut?' People looked at them a long time ago when TBC first came out, and it seemed to be fairly clear that Rampage and Imp Zerker stance etc. came out ahead. However, from what I remember of these comparisons, they were all before the Death Wish change. Now, I have to admit that I absolutely love Death Wish, it's one of my favourite talents and I hate that they moved it, but it gave me the idea to re-evaluate a 26/35 build. In these days of cooldown stacking and short fights, Death Wish seems like it should be stronger than ever. Bloodlust + Death Wish + Recklessness + Haste Potion should be good times. The question is, is it enough to make up for the lost damage of the fury talents, and (importantly) can it deal with the lost threat reduction from imp Zerker Stance?
The way I see it, compared to a 17/44 build, you lose: Rampage, 5/5 Imp Zerker Stance, and then 3 extra talent points (that will vary from person to person - for me my last 3 points are 2 precision, 1 commanding presence).
You gain: 5/5 Sword Specialization, Death Wish, and essentially 3 worthless talent points (unless you somehow manage to work in overpower weaving).
Well, already it doesn't look that promising, but I think it bears investigating. In some simple algebra (what seems to be referred to as 'napkin maths' around here these days) yesterday, I seemed to find that 5/5 sword spec is considerably better DPS from your auto-attacks than improved zerker stance, assuming that you use a fast offhand. Since offhand sword procs cause a mh attack, you want a really slow MH and a realy fast OH (so luckily, Warglaives should be *ideal* for this). This will lower your WW damage, but not by that much. I am still to calculate how IBS and SS affect specials, but I'm fairly certain (due to bloodthirst) that IBS will come out ahead, but overall I would bet on sword spec being a greater overall damage boost.
That's all well and good, but it still leaves Death Wish squaring off against Rampage (an excellent talent no matter what some might say) and 3 other talent points.
Of course, comparing all this is going to take a much more detailed investigation, one which I unfortunately don't have time for right now. My gut instinct is that 17/44 is going to come out ahead, but probably not by much, and on fights with a lot of movement, or very short fights (where average DW uptime is higher), 26/35 could take the lead.
Has anyone else done any research or practice with this recently, or perhaps even tried it? I have a few swords available to me ([Talon of Azshara], [Akil'zon's Talonblade] and [Heartless]), so I might give it a run sometime and see how it plays. It's probably a fool's crusade, but it'd be nice to think there's a decent alternative to the cookie cutter.
Moogul, I asked that same question a while back, here: [Warrior] Future of a DPS Warrior
and it was answered 3 posts down by Perinon, but no one gave a numbers comparison, and I was too intent on trying out 17/44 for myself to consider sword spec (running numbers, specing it for a week, etc)
and it was answered 3 posts down by Perinon, but no one gave a numbers comparison, and I was too intent on trying out 17/44 for myself to consider sword spec (running numbers, specing it for a week, etc)
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Originally Posted by Charsi
I use Slam rotations until 19% then, since I usually get Heroism around that time (depending on the fight, sometimes it's earlier than that) I revert to straight reckless execute.
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And do you keep executing or go back to your normal slam rotation after reck and dw are down?
And, wouldn't 4/5 2h spec + 5/5 sword spec give you a bit more dmg just from the rage that you get from the one percent extra attacks?
I ran with sword spec fury up until the beginning of T6 content. At that point the AP value of imp zerk and rampage combined just becomes too powerful to pass up. We are looking at upwards of 500 buffed attack power lost. Its still a very fun spec, and the burst possibilities of DW with blood lust and sword procs is pretty intense. I think its actaully probably a dps increase around the t5 level still, but once you get past that I can't see it being more then a fun toy.
Also, remember that you're trading burst dps for lack of agro management for over all increased threat. So, although most of us don't have threat issues anymore, its something to be aware of when considering the spec.
Also, remember that you're trading burst dps for lack of agro management for over all increased threat. So, although most of us don't have threat issues anymore, its something to be aware of when considering the spec.
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Originally Posted by Moogul
Kind of on that topic, the last couple of days I've been considering the viability of a sword-spec DW build.
Now, I know most people's first reaction is going to be something along the lines of 'lolwut?' People looked at them a long time ago when TBC first came out, and it seemed to be fairly clear that Rampage and Imp Zerker stance etc. came out ahead. However, from what I remember of these comparisons, they were all before the Death Wish change. Now, I have to admit that I absolutely love Death Wish, it's one of my favourite talents and I hate that they moved it, but it gave me the idea to re-evaluate a 26/35 build. In these days of cooldown stacking and short fights, Death Wish seems like it should be stronger than ever. Bloodlust + Death Wish + Recklessness + Haste Potion should be good times. The question is, is it enough to make up for the lost damage of the fury talents, and (importantly) can it deal with the lost threat reduction from imp Zerker Stance? The way I see it, compared to a 17/44 build, you lose: Rampage, 5/5 Imp Zerker Stance, and then 3 extra talent points (that will vary from person to person - for me my last 3 points are 2 precision, 1 commanding presence). You gain: 5/5 Sword Specialization, Death Wish, and essentially 3 worthless talent points (unless you somehow manage to work in overpower weaving). Well, already it doesn't look that promising, but I think it bears investigating. In some simple algebra (what seems to be referred to as 'napkin maths' around here these days) yesterday, I seemed to find that 5/5 sword spec is considerably better DPS from your auto-attacks than improved zerker stance, assuming that you use a fast offhand. Since offhand sword procs cause a mh attack, you want a really slow MH and a realy fast OH (so luckily, Warglaives should be *ideal* for this). This will lower your WW damage, but not by that much. I am still to calculate how IBS and SS affect specials, but I'm fairly certain (due to bloodthirst) that IBS will come out ahead, but overall I would bet on sword spec being a greater overall damage boost. That's all well and good, but it still leaves Death Wish squaring off against Rampage (an excellent talent no matter what some might say) and 3 other talent points. Of course, comparing all this is going to take a much more detailed investigation, one which I unfortunately don't have time for right now. My gut instinct is that 17/44 is going to come out ahead, but probably not by much, and on fights with a lot of movement, or very short fights (where average DW uptime is higher), 26/35 could take the lead. Has anyone else done any research or practice with this recently, or perhaps even tried it? I have a few swords available to me ([Talon of Azshara], [Akil'zon's Talonblade] and [Heartless]), so I might give it a run sometime and see how it plays. It's probably a fool's crusade, but it'd be nice to think there's a decent alternative to the cookie cutter. |
I was thinking of Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft, with dw warglaives and only auto attacking heroic striking and maybe whirlwinding but trying to bloodthrist when windfury procs to make up for the ap i'm missing. I dont know if it is viable at all or if it maybe is but threat would be an issue but someone needs to find out!!! THIS COULD BE GROUND BREAKING
What ranged slot item?
Hey guys, I know this might be a little off-topic at the moment, but I've asked for help here before, so I'll try again
I've got a bit of a dilemma at the moment, and my question is: what ranged weapon should I use? Yesterday I got [Ancient Amani Longbow] from Zul'jin, and my other ranged slot item is [Vengeful Gladiator's War Edge].
When I saw how much crit I lost, I started wondering if it was a wise swap from my side, and I'd love to hear your constructive thoughts about it. Thanks in advance, Zonekiller.
I've got a bit of a dilemma at the moment, and my question is: what ranged weapon should I use? Yesterday I got [Ancient Amani Longbow] from Zul'jin, and my other ranged slot item is [Vengeful Gladiator's War Edge].
When I saw how much crit I lost, I started wondering if it was a wise swap from my side, and I'd love to hear your constructive thoughts about it. Thanks in advance, Zonekiller.
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Originally Posted by rhoxx
only auto attacking heroic striking and maybe whirlwinding but trying to bloodthrist when windfury procs to make up for the ap i'm missing.
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Originally Posted by zonekiller
Hey guys, I know this might be a little off-topic at the moment, but I've asked for help here before, so I'll try again
I've got a bit of a dilemma at the moment, and my question is: what ranged weapon should I use? Yesterday I got [Ancient Amani Longbow] from Zul'jin, and my other ranged slot item is [Vengeful Gladiator's War Edge]. When I saw how much crit I lost, I started wondering if it was a wise swap from my side, and I'd love to hear your constructive thoughts about it. Thanks in advance, Zonekiller. |
you wouldnt be bloodthirsting on wf procs because you dont have rage, but then if you specced 26/35 and just dpsed the same you do as 17/44 would is still be viable?
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Originally Posted by rhoxx
you wouldnt be bloodthirsting on wf procs because you dont have rage
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26/35 Might be a nice spec, I think in the end though it will fall short of 17/44 on most fight except the ones where short CD's have a big impact on the fight (Akama & Gorefiend).
It would be intresting to see how 27/44 would work in WoTLK though, unless they give us some sort of sick 51 pointer that pretty much makes Swordspec obsolete.
when windfury procs you gain 500 or 600 ap? dont remember :P, for like 1 second and you can bloodthirst in that time
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Originally Posted by Eledorian
If the current crit displayed on your armory (27.94%) is battlestance I wouldn't worry too much. Your crit will go up as you gather more BT loot.
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Also, reading the posts above about 26/35 spec, could anyone link that spec please?
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Originally Posted by zonekiller
My crit is indeed 27,94%, thanks for your help=)
Also, reading the posts above about 26/35 spec, could anyone link that spec please? |
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
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Originally Posted by Warlike
Charsi, what weapons do you use during execute range?
And do you keep executing or go back to your normal slam rotation after reck and dw are down? And, wouldn't 4/5 2h spec + 5/5 sword spec give you a bit more dmg just from the rage that you get from the one percent extra attacks? |
As for 4/5 2h spec + 5/5 sword spec, I hadn't sat down and run any numbers on it tbh. My thoughts were that a constant +1% damage would be better, as the missing point out of sword specialization hasn't been something I really "felt" in any detrimental way. (That is of course subjective and anecdotal.) When you look at WWS parses like Gorefiend I get less than 10 sword specialization procs per fight - is an additional 1% chance going to give me even one extra proc over a fight of that length? If not, what am I getting for my talent point spent.. an extra proc or two over the course of a night?
Regarding 26/35.. what are the extra 4 points above and beyond Bloodthirst in Fury getting you, are they that important, and can they be better spent in Arms, eg Improved Disciplines for longer Recklessness that might tip the favour towards this spec in shorter parses?
Last edited by Charsi : 02/23/08 at 8:39 AM.
the 4 points are for 5/5 dw spec and 3/3 percision
can anyone like theorycraft 26/35 or something :P so we can know if it works or has anyone tried it before?
can anyone like theorycraft 26/35 or something :P so we can know if it works or has anyone tried it before?
I've recently switched from fury to arms with a CE and blood frenzy, and I was wondering what the consensus is on the best dps rotation with slam. Sorry for asking but I can't make the search work for my advantage. I've put out some competitive numbers, mostly cause my gear is near the top arms gear around, but I was wondering if I should be slamming after every white hit or not. And what to do if/when I'm not slamming. Also worthy of note is I have relatively high ping to server, being in the southern hemisphere, so is there a different spec I could use that still had blood frenzy but skipped slam and had comparable performance?
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
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Originally Posted by rhoxx
the 4 points are for 5/5 dw spec and 3/3 percision
can anyone like theorycraft 26/35 or something :P so we can know if it works or has anyone tried it before? |
For Sword Spec to come out ahead, you want a) A pair of Warglaives, b) quite a bit of +hit, and c) to spam hamstring in between BT and WW.
However, under those circumstances, my simple modelling showed that Sword Spec would come out ahead, and this is before including the benefit of more procs (windfury, executioner, DST etc.) from having sword spec, and also ignoring the rage bonus - since all the bonus damage from sword spec gives rage, whereas a lot of the bonus damage from IBS is on yellow damage and so wont.
I know a few people have mentioned using spamstring to increase flurry rate and other procs, I think with Sword Spec it is a viable way to go, and means that even with worse weapons, sword spec will still be competitive with IBS.
The question now is how effective is Death wish? I guess I should try to play around with Grim's spreadsheet, I think just averaging it's affect by uptime is going to be really underselling it - when you time it with recklessness and bloodlust it will be a big boost.
I'm thinking of trying out 26/35 tomorrow in Hyjal/BT since I'll have to respec from PvP anyway, I'll let you know how it goes.
For those wondering, this is the build that I would use (Woot, Stun Resist for Kaz'rogal!)
Update!
I added Windfury totem into the calculations and everything has changed! Sword Spec is now *better* than Improved Zerker stance in pretty much _all_ sensible gear loadouts (but using a fast offhand). In a setup tailored to Sword Spec (Warglaives, decent amount of +hit) it does more than 30dps more the with IBS.
Once again I'm intrigued, and really looking forward to trying this out. Also I really want Warglaives more than ever :-/
Last edited by Moogul : 02/23/08 at 11:07 AM.
This is starting to look more and more interesting to me, considering I should have access to the s3 main hand soon, and the s3 offhand is a LOT cheaper than another main hand that I would have had to get :P more theorycrafting Moogul and keep us posted!
I will try out tomorrow in hyjal with 2xS3 swords and ill tell ya how i go
this will be amazing if it works 
Yeah, definetly looking forward to see the results! 
Is anyone able to give me straight numbers about how much crit is decreasing the higher it gets? If we assume 1 rating at 0% critchance total is 100 SEP (like the spreadsheet says) how much would it be at lets say 30%+?
I've recently had a prot warrior wanting to go 33/28 which is my current spec. I won't be needed for blood frenzy any more, so I was wondering if going 20/41 2h dps would be viable versus waiting for a few more pieces of gear to go DW.
I tried out all these crazy builds back when I hit 70, I think the math back then showed that going DW fury but grabbing sword spec or even axe spec was viable for DPS (since gear when hitting 70 was pretty bad with low crit rates).
I also tried a farming/late TBC leveling build with mace spec using DW maces since unlike rogue mace stun, the warrior one lasts longer.
I really haven't looked at using a mix of fury + sword spec (while DW) since early Gruul' days, but I might try it this week myself.
I also tried a farming/late TBC leveling build with mace spec using DW maces since unlike rogue mace stun, the warrior one lasts longer.
I really haven't looked at using a mix of fury + sword spec (while DW) since early Gruul' days, but I might try it this week myself.
What do you mean warrior mace stun lasts longer? I was under the impression they were both 3.
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Originally Posted by Tkon
What do you mean warrior mace stun lasts longer? I was under the impression they were both 3.
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Edited onPatch 2.3.3
I think sword spec for DW is only interesting for Humans with the Swordracial.
I can´t imagine, that for Orcs with two Axes, swordsspec will be better.
Before i reach expertise cap the extraexpertise provided by the Axes is a huge DMG boost (according to my gear and Grims Spredsheet i would losse ~ 20 dps if i switch to Swords.
So Mooguls tests would be very interesting for me (have you done them with Grims Sheet or yout own maths)
It comes out to this for me (as an Orc):
Pro Swordspec:
5% chance for an extraswing on each attack
Deathwish
Contra:
Loosing IBS (~200ap unbuffed) (raidbuffed with kings, might, MoTW, meleeshamie & BS i would losse ~ 300ap)
Loosing Rampage (275ap)
Loosing 3% hit
Loosing 5% imp Battleshout (~20ap)
Loosing 5 Expertise
-> loosing >500ap, 3%hit, 5 Expertise
-> Winning Swordattacks, Deathwish.
I can´t imagine going 26/35 will outdps 17/44 as an orc, but i´ll wait for Mooguls tests.
And if i put the things in Grims spreadsheet i would loose ~150dps if i change from 17/44 to 26/35.
edit: i forgot the loss of some WW-DMG but this isn´t that much.
I can´t imagine, that for Orcs with two Axes, swordsspec will be better.
Before i reach expertise cap the extraexpertise provided by the Axes is a huge DMG boost (according to my gear and Grims Spredsheet i would losse ~ 20 dps if i switch to Swords.
So Mooguls tests would be very interesting for me (have you done them with Grims Sheet or yout own maths)
It comes out to this for me (as an Orc):
Pro Swordspec:
5% chance for an extraswing on each attack
Deathwish
Contra:
Loosing IBS (~200ap unbuffed) (raidbuffed with kings, might, MoTW, meleeshamie & BS i would losse ~ 300ap)
Loosing Rampage (275ap)
Loosing 3% hit
Loosing 5% imp Battleshout (~20ap)
Loosing 5 Expertise
-> loosing >500ap, 3%hit, 5 Expertise
-> Winning Swordattacks, Deathwish.
I can´t imagine going 26/35 will outdps 17/44 as an orc, but i´ll wait for Mooguls tests.
And if i put the things in Grims spreadsheet i would loose ~150dps if i change from 17/44 to 26/35.
edit: i forgot the loss of some WW-DMG but this isn´t that much.
Last edited by Langie : 02/24/08 at 5:42 AM.
post a link to grims spreadsheet
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Originally Posted by shed
I also tried a farming/late TBC leveling build with mace spec using DW maces since unlike rogue mace stun, the warrior one lasts longer.
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Originally Posted by Langie
It comes out to this for me (as an Orc):
Pro Swordspec: 5% chance for an extraswing on each attack Deathwish Contra: Loosing IBS (~200ap unbuffed) (raidbuffed with kings, might, MoTW, meleeshamie & BS i would losse ~ 300ap) Loosing Rampage (275ap) Loosing 3% hit Loosing 5% imp Battleshout (~20ap) Loosing 5 Expertise -> loosing >500ap, 3%hit, 5 Expertise -> Winning Swordattacks, Deathwish. |
Truth be told, I'm not expecting it to be better than 17/44. I'm hoping it will be similar, and will just be another option for people to try if they want some variation.
im gonna try Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft in the first half of bt this week. I'll be using my blade of infamy mh and wargalive oh and. ill post about how it worked.
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Originally Posted by rhoxx
im gonna try Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft in the first half of bt this week. I'll be using my blade of infamy mh and wargalive oh and. ill post about how it worked.
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Originally Posted by rhoxx
im gonna try Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft in the first half of bt this week. I'll be using my blade of infamy mh and wargalive oh and. ill post about how it worked.
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Edit: Should have refreshed the thread before posting, whoops.
ok ill spec that instead then
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Originally Posted by Moogul
Surely you'd want 2 in Weapon mastery and 1 in precision, rather than 3 in precision?
Edit: Should have refreshed the thread before posting, whoops. |
tried it on hyjal last night, seemed to be putting out very competitive numbers but didnt have wws running so kinda fail. managed 1650ish dps on antheron. real test should be on wed when i go back into bt and test it on teron though.
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Originally Posted by mogun
2/2 WM and 1/3 Prec is better then 3/3 Prec. While +hit increase your chance to hit, this will only apply to white hits, (assuming you have already 9% hit) but -2% dodge applies to ALL hits (yellows included) resulting in higher dps increase overall.
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Anyway, back to the 26/35 discussion - I did indeed try it out yesterday, but unfortunately (in regards to my testing) we went to Black Temple for Shahraz and Illidari Council instead of Hyjal. For Shahraz we're obviously all stuck in shadow res gear, and we only downed Illidari Council last week so we ended up wiping a lot and not killing them (plus it was my first day on them, so not a great personal benchmark)
There is a WWS of our Shahraz kill here, Wow Web Stats, and it seems pretty positive. Overall, my 'qualitative' experience with the build was the it is definitely workable, but will require me to get used to it a bit more and perhaps change my gear slightly. The first couple of tries on Shahraz I was running with dreadfully low hit (I normally skirt close to 9%, and that's with Precision) so I ended up having to change some gear around as rage generation was just too streaky. It also took a bit of getting used to spamstring again, and sometimes I would dump too much rage into Hamstring and Heroic and leave myself starving for whirlwind (not a good idea), and I was also suffering from what I've dubbed 'Phantom Rampage Syndrome' (ie. reflexively trying to sustain rampage and panicking when it's not up).
As the raid went on, I got more used to it, and for trash not having to worry about rampage was quite nice (and for IC, where I'm running in and out of AoEs so much). As you can see on the WWS, I managed 4th on Shahraz, and the rogue above me didn't get FA at all (I had it twice), so his time on target was higher than mine. I also didnt quite use my cooldowns to full potential, only 2 death wishes in a 6'35 fight (in fact, Death Wish cooled down the INSTANT Shahraz died....*angry face*), I was so worried about the lack of threat reduction that I waited quite a bit before DWing, but I could in fact have burnt it a lot earlier.
On a lighter note, I went to Karazhan in the evening, I'd forgotten just how fun Death Wish is on Curator...
Anyway, so far nothing really conclusive, I'll report back when I have more info.
Once the last patch came out I tested 3 different specs, the standard 17/44, 5/41/15, and 26/35. 17/44 as expected came out on top, but 5/41/15 was only behind by about 100, and 26/35 spec about 100 behind that. Only got to do 1 week with each spec and it's purely anecdotal but it really depends on the fight length to make use of several death wishes and luck with sword specs.
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
Executioner vs Mongoose
The DPS Warrior Spreadsheet is currently not loading these enchants accurately and I've checked this thread for the ultimate answer to this question but I just found a lot of non-proven opinions about which is better. I was curious as to which would be preferred for 2 2.7 weapons and 2 2.5 weapons.
Is there a set answer as to which one has been proven to provide overall more dps?
Thanks much!
Is there a set answer as to which one has been proven to provide overall more dps?
Thanks much!
Last edited by Recab : 02/25/08 at 12:24 PM.
I've recently been toying with the idea of going for a 2H fury spec. The content is mostly on farm anyway.
Going to go for this build probably 21/40/0.
Wondering if people have some feedback on how 2H fury performs at an average BT level? I've not really played around with it much yet but I'm looking forward to trying it out in a raid, especially the added AP and threatreduction appeal to me :>
Going to go for this build probably 21/40/0.
Wondering if people have some feedback on how 2H fury performs at an average BT level? I've not really played around with it much yet but I'm looking forward to trying it out in a raid, especially the added AP and threatreduction appeal to me :>
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Originally Posted by rhoxx
im gonna try Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft in the first half of bt this week. I'll be using my blade of infamy mh and wargalive oh and. ill post about how it worked.
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also, would it matter fast/slow OH for DW with sword spec? or would they not make much of a difference?
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Originally Posted by jimdangle
this would be really helpful for our knowledge, thanks! any way you could link a wws of before/after switching to sword spec fury DW?
also, would it matter fast/slow OH for DW with sword spec? or would they not make much of a difference? |
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Originally Posted by shed
You'd want a slow MH for your sword specs, you're OH shouldn't matter, but I think a faster one might be better because when it procs (i think) it will trigger a main hand swing.
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this will be amazing if it works
Yeah, definetly looking forward to see the results!
Is anyone able to give me straight numbers about how much crit is decreasing the higher it gets? If we assume 1 rating at 0% critchance total is 100 SEP (like the spreadsheet says) how much would it be at lets say 30%+?
I've recently had a prot warrior wanting to go 33/28 which is my current spec. I won't be needed for blood frenzy any more, so I was wondering if going 20/41 2h dps would be viable versus waiting for a few more pieces of gear to go DW.
I tried out all these crazy builds back when I hit 70, I think the math back then showed that going DW fury but grabbing sword spec or even axe spec was viable for DPS (since gear when hitting 70 was pretty bad with low crit rates).
I also tried a farming/late TBC leveling build with mace spec using DW maces since unlike rogue mace stun, the warrior one lasts longer.
I really haven't looked at using a mix of fury + sword spec (while DW) since early Gruul' days, but I might try it this week myself.
I also tried a farming/late TBC leveling build with mace spec using DW maces since unlike rogue mace stun, the warrior one lasts longer.
I really haven't looked at using a mix of fury + sword spec (while DW) since early Gruul' days, but I might try it this week myself.
What do you mean warrior mace stun lasts longer? I was under the impression they were both 3.
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Originally Posted by Tkon
What do you mean warrior mace stun lasts longer? I was under the impression they were both 3.
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Edited onPatch 2.3.3
I think sword spec for DW is only interesting for Humans with the Swordracial.
I can´t imagine, that for Orcs with two Axes, swordsspec will be better.
Before i reach expertise cap the extraexpertise provided by the Axes is a huge DMG boost (according to my gear and Grims Spredsheet i would losse ~ 20 dps if i switch to Swords.
So Mooguls tests would be very interesting for me (have you done them with Grims Sheet or yout own maths)
It comes out to this for me (as an Orc):
Pro Swordspec:
5% chance for an extraswing on each attack
Deathwish
Contra:
Loosing IBS (~200ap unbuffed) (raidbuffed with kings, might, MoTW, meleeshamie & BS i would losse ~ 300ap)
Loosing Rampage (275ap)
Loosing 3% hit
Loosing 5% imp Battleshout (~20ap)
Loosing 5 Expertise
-> loosing >500ap, 3%hit, 5 Expertise
-> Winning Swordattacks, Deathwish.
I can´t imagine going 26/35 will outdps 17/44 as an orc, but i´ll wait for Mooguls tests.
And if i put the things in Grims spreadsheet i would loose ~150dps if i change from 17/44 to 26/35.
edit: i forgot the loss of some WW-DMG but this isn´t that much.
I can´t imagine, that for Orcs with two Axes, swordsspec will be better.
Before i reach expertise cap the extraexpertise provided by the Axes is a huge DMG boost (according to my gear and Grims Spredsheet i would losse ~ 20 dps if i switch to Swords.
So Mooguls tests would be very interesting for me (have you done them with Grims Sheet or yout own maths)
It comes out to this for me (as an Orc):
Pro Swordspec:
5% chance for an extraswing on each attack
Deathwish
Contra:
Loosing IBS (~200ap unbuffed) (raidbuffed with kings, might, MoTW, meleeshamie & BS i would losse ~ 300ap)
Loosing Rampage (275ap)
Loosing 3% hit
Loosing 5% imp Battleshout (~20ap)
Loosing 5 Expertise
-> loosing >500ap, 3%hit, 5 Expertise
-> Winning Swordattacks, Deathwish.
I can´t imagine going 26/35 will outdps 17/44 as an orc, but i´ll wait for Mooguls tests.
And if i put the things in Grims spreadsheet i would loose ~150dps if i change from 17/44 to 26/35.
edit: i forgot the loss of some WW-DMG but this isn´t that much.
Last edited by Langie : 02/24/08 at 5:42 AM.
post a link to grims spreadsheet
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Originally Posted by shed
I also tried a farming/late TBC leveling build with mace spec using DW maces since unlike rogue mace stun, the warrior one lasts longer.
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Originally Posted by Langie
It comes out to this for me (as an Orc):
Pro Swordspec: 5% chance for an extraswing on each attack Deathwish Contra: Loosing IBS (~200ap unbuffed) (raidbuffed with kings, might, MoTW, meleeshamie & BS i would losse ~ 300ap) Loosing Rampage (275ap) Loosing 3% hit Loosing 5% imp Battleshout (~20ap) Loosing 5 Expertise -> loosing >500ap, 3%hit, 5 Expertise -> Winning Swordattacks, Deathwish. |
Truth be told, I'm not expecting it to be better than 17/44. I'm hoping it will be similar, and will just be another option for people to try if they want some variation.
im gonna try Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft in the first half of bt this week. I'll be using my blade of infamy mh and wargalive oh and. ill post about how it worked.
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Originally Posted by rhoxx
im gonna try Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft in the first half of bt this week. I'll be using my blade of infamy mh and wargalive oh and. ill post about how it worked.
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Originally Posted by rhoxx
im gonna try Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft in the first half of bt this week. I'll be using my blade of infamy mh and wargalive oh and. ill post about how it worked.
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Edit: Should have refreshed the thread before posting, whoops.
ok ill spec that instead then
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Originally Posted by Moogul
Surely you'd want 2 in Weapon mastery and 1 in precision, rather than 3 in precision?
Edit: Should have refreshed the thread before posting, whoops. |
tried it on hyjal last night, seemed to be putting out very competitive numbers but didnt have wws running so kinda fail. managed 1650ish dps on antheron. real test should be on wed when i go back into bt and test it on teron though.
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Originally Posted by mogun
2/2 WM and 1/3 Prec is better then 3/3 Prec. While +hit increase your chance to hit, this will only apply to white hits, (assuming you have already 9% hit) but -2% dodge applies to ALL hits (yellows included) resulting in higher dps increase overall.
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Anyway, back to the 26/35 discussion - I did indeed try it out yesterday, but unfortunately (in regards to my testing) we went to Black Temple for Shahraz and Illidari Council instead of Hyjal. For Shahraz we're obviously all stuck in shadow res gear, and we only downed Illidari Council last week so we ended up wiping a lot and not killing them (plus it was my first day on them, so not a great personal benchmark)
There is a WWS of our Shahraz kill here, Wow Web Stats, and it seems pretty positive. Overall, my 'qualitative' experience with the build was the it is definitely workable, but will require me to get used to it a bit more and perhaps change my gear slightly. The first couple of tries on Shahraz I was running with dreadfully low hit (I normally skirt close to 9%, and that's with Precision) so I ended up having to change some gear around as rage generation was just too streaky. It also took a bit of getting used to spamstring again, and sometimes I would dump too much rage into Hamstring and Heroic and leave myself starving for whirlwind (not a good idea), and I was also suffering from what I've dubbed 'Phantom Rampage Syndrome' (ie. reflexively trying to sustain rampage and panicking when it's not up).
As the raid went on, I got more used to it, and for trash not having to worry about rampage was quite nice (and for IC, where I'm running in and out of AoEs so much). As you can see on the WWS, I managed 4th on Shahraz, and the rogue above me didn't get FA at all (I had it twice), so his time on target was higher than mine. I also didnt quite use my cooldowns to full potential, only 2 death wishes in a 6'35 fight (in fact, Death Wish cooled down the INSTANT Shahraz died....*angry face*), I was so worried about the lack of threat reduction that I waited quite a bit before DWing, but I could in fact have burnt it a lot earlier.
On a lighter note, I went to Karazhan in the evening, I'd forgotten just how fun Death Wish is on Curator...
Anyway, so far nothing really conclusive, I'll report back when I have more info.
Once the last patch came out I tested 3 different specs, the standard 17/44, 5/41/15, and 26/35. 17/44 as expected came out on top, but 5/41/15 was only behind by about 100, and 26/35 spec about 100 behind that. Only got to do 1 week with each spec and it's purely anecdotal but it really depends on the fight length to make use of several death wishes and luck with sword specs.
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
Executioner vs Mongoose
The DPS Warrior Spreadsheet is currently not loading these enchants accurately and I've checked this thread for the ultimate answer to this question but I just found a lot of non-proven opinions about which is better. I was curious as to which would be preferred for 2 2.7 weapons and 2 2.5 weapons.
Is there a set answer as to which one has been proven to provide overall more dps?
Thanks much!
Is there a set answer as to which one has been proven to provide overall more dps?
Thanks much!
Last edited by Recab : 02/25/08 at 12:24 PM.
I've recently been toying with the idea of going for a 2H fury spec. The content is mostly on farm anyway.
Going to go for this build probably 21/40/0.
Wondering if people have some feedback on how 2H fury performs at an average BT level? I've not really played around with it much yet but I'm looking forward to trying it out in a raid, especially the added AP and threatreduction appeal to me :>
Going to go for this build probably 21/40/0.
Wondering if people have some feedback on how 2H fury performs at an average BT level? I've not really played around with it much yet but I'm looking forward to trying it out in a raid, especially the added AP and threatreduction appeal to me :>
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Originally Posted by rhoxx
im gonna try Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft in the first half of bt this week. I'll be using my blade of infamy mh and wargalive oh and. ill post about how it worked.
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also, would it matter fast/slow OH for DW with sword spec? or would they not make much of a difference?
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Originally Posted by jimdangle
this would be really helpful for our knowledge, thanks! any way you could link a wws of before/after switching to sword spec fury DW?
also, would it matter fast/slow OH for DW with sword spec? or would they not make much of a difference? |
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Originally Posted by shed
You'd want a slow MH for your sword specs, you're OH shouldn't matter, but I think a faster one might be better because when it procs (i think) it will trigger a main hand swing.
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I'm testing this spec out (25/36) also. I'm using 2x Blade of Infamy, but I'm curious about how well the fast OH would alter it. Hopefully I can get my hands on a Blade off Mother. I'll let you know how it goes.
Do we have any evidence regarding OH sword spec procs?
I currently use a Talon MH/Decapitator OH during execute phase. The speeds are far from ideal, and I have a Talonblade also. I had been favoring the Decapitator because it has a Mongoose enchant, but the Talonblade has Potency, and if it can proc a MH swing from sword spec, it should be better for DW Execute. For reference the Talon (as well as my normal Twinblade) has Executioner.
I currently use a Talon MH/Decapitator OH during execute phase. The speeds are far from ideal, and I have a Talonblade also. I had been favoring the Decapitator because it has a Mongoose enchant, but the Talonblade has Potency, and if it can proc a MH swing from sword spec, it should be better for DW Execute. For reference the Talon (as well as my normal Twinblade) has Executioner.
Just from preliminary tests on the Servants in Blasted Lands, Executes with Sword Spec are far easier to do. I can hit BT, Execute twice, and still have BT up for the next rotation. Its quite nice in that aspect.
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Originally Posted by Apate
Do we have any evidence regarding OH sword spec procs?
I currently use a Talon MH/Decapitator OH during execute phase. The speeds are far from ideal, and I have a Talonblade also. I had been favoring the Decapitator because it has a Mongoose enchant, but the Talonblade has Potency, and if it can proc a MH swing from sword spec, it should be better for DW Execute. For reference the Talon (as well as my normal Twinblade) has Executioner. |
Would the best way of gearing for the sword spec be more like a rogue, stacking more hit and possibly haste in order to increase your white damage, which seems the point of the spec? The only problem I see is with more hit you're going to get less ap/crit and without the ability for on demand flurry as the rogues have with SnD is it ever going to be near competitive? I tried the spec a while ago and it was a lot of fun would be nice to have another raiding DW spec.
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Originally Posted by Bogeyman
Would the best way of gearing for the sword spec be more like a rogue, stacking more hit and possibly haste in order to increase your white damage, which seems the point of the spec? The only problem I see is with more hit you're going to get less ap/crit and without the ability for on demand flurry as the rogues have with SnD is it ever going to be near competitive? I tried the spec a while ago and it was a lot of fun would be nice to have another raiding DW spec.
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I had my 2nd night as 26/35 last night, killing Illidari Council and then spending the rest of the night learning Illidan. Since phase 1 is mostly just tank and spank, it seemed a fairly good test of the spec, and I have to say I was dissappointed. It had been quite good on the council, where not having to keep up rampage was a blessing, but when just standing there and nuking, it seemed to fall quite behind. I don't have a WWS but looking at recount after each try I was lagging sorely behind our other melee and hunters. Some of this could be due to my unfamiliarity with the spec, but at present I don't think it's going to be good enough to be competitive with 17/44 with my current gear.
For now, I think I'm going to go back to 17/44, but I'm going to do some more theorycrafting, in particularly on how hit (and to a lesser extent haste) affect the 2 builds, and then maybe come back to it later if I find a 'more optimal' gear loadout for the spec.
So for now, my summary on 26/35 is - good spec, fun if you want something different, but currently not really competitive with 17/44.
I just want to bring up an idea for discussion that I brought up in the DPS Warrior Spreadsheet thread.
Considering the amount of armor penetration items currently in game and soon-to-be in game from Sunwell, Warriors can easily get past the armor penetration "cap," the amount of armor penetration you should stay under in order to get the maximum benefit from executioner. In other words, whenever executioner is up, a certain amount of your static armor penetration is being wasted. Therefore, would it be better to switch over to mongoose for for a weapon enchants for both 2h and DW weapons?
Considering the amount of armor penetration items currently in game and soon-to-be in game from Sunwell, Warriors can easily get past the armor penetration "cap," the amount of armor penetration you should stay under in order to get the maximum benefit from executioner. In other words, whenever executioner is up, a certain amount of your static armor penetration is being wasted. Therefore, would it be better to switch over to mongoose for for a weapon enchants for both 2h and DW weapons?
Of course Mongoose is better than executioner when you are ArP capped. You should be able to use the spreadsheet to determine whether you are better served by a new weapon enchant or by swapping gear out (say, crit for ArP). You may also consider having an "over cap" set for bosses with higher armor, although I don't know how that would play out relative to other setups; perhaps the spreadsheet can shed some light on that as well.
T6 instance bosses have a minimum of 6200 armor. Assuming all buffs are up on the boss, -2600 from sunder armors, -610 from faerie fire, -800 from curse of recklessness and -840 from executioner proc on you:
6200 - 2600 - 610 - 800 - 840 = 1350
So you can have up to -1350 static ArP on your gear before you start wasting the stat; -2190 ArP if you go with Mongoose.
6200 - 2600 - 610 - 800 - 840 = 1350
So you can have up to -1350 static ArP on your gear before you start wasting the stat; -2190 ArP if you go with Mongoose.
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Originally Posted by Moogul
Possibly, that's what I'm wondering.
I had my 2nd night as 26/35 last night, killing Illidari Council and then spending the rest of the night learning Illidan. Since phase 1 is mostly just tank and spank, it seemed a fairly good test of the spec, and I have to say I was dissappointed. It had been quite good on the council, where not having to keep up rampage was a blessing, but when just standing there and nuking, it seemed to fall quite behind. I don't have a WWS but looking at recount after each try I was lagging sorely behind our other melee and hunters. Some of this could be due to my unfamiliarity with the spec, but at present I don't think it's going to be good enough to be competitive with 17/44 with my current gear. For now, I think I'm going to go back to 17/44, but I'm going to do some more theorycrafting, in particularly on how hit (and to a lesser extent haste) affect the 2 builds, and then maybe come back to it later if I find a 'more optimal' gear loadout for the spec. So for now, my summary on 26/35 is - good spec, fun if you want something different, but currently not really competitive with 17/44. |
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
We just got done with hyjal (minus archimonde) with me playing 26/35 spec. All I can say is WOOOOW! Not that trash dps matters too much but DAMN, trash dps went up SIGNIFICANTLY, and boss dps was on par with my normal 17/44 DW setup, Im still getting used to the rotations for this, when to HS or slam but I think I will be sticking with this spec for awhile, its definately a lot more fun to play.
Here is the WWS LINK
P.S. I wasnt in for the whole TK raid and only got in after winterchill for hyjal.
Here is the WWS LINK
P.S. I wasnt in for the whole TK raid and only got in after winterchill for hyjal.
Last edited by madrussian : 02/27/08 at 2:52 AM.
Greetings everyone,
Im having some fun with the fury war in raids nowadays but i still got some questions. I´ve seen lots of experienced warriors in this thread and doing wonders in the WWSs, and maybe i could get some help around here. My question is about gems/stats of a fury war, particularly when it comes to choose between str/crit gems. According to maxdps.com, +8 str = 4,38 dps and +8 crit = 2,69 dps. When it comes to socketing, there is a rule to ALWAYS choose the +8 str gem? Or is there a point where the +8 crit will have a better dps feedback (mainly because of flurry)? Is there a priority list like: gear with hit until 10%, then gear/socket with crit until 30% and then stack str? Thanks in advance.
Im having some fun with the fury war in raids nowadays but i still got some questions. I´ve seen lots of experienced warriors in this thread and doing wonders in the WWSs, and maybe i could get some help around here. My question is about gems/stats of a fury war, particularly when it comes to choose between str/crit gems. According to maxdps.com, +8 str = 4,38 dps and +8 crit = 2,69 dps. When it comes to socketing, there is a rule to ALWAYS choose the +8 str gem? Or is there a point where the +8 crit will have a better dps feedback (mainly because of flurry)? Is there a priority list like: gear with hit until 10%, then gear/socket with crit until 30% and then stack str? Thanks in advance.
1) Don't let hit drop below 9% (socket hit to that point if you must).
2) [Warrior] DPS Spreadsheet 2.3 and beyond for your Str/Crit gem comparisons.
MaxDPS just isn't as accurate as the spreadsheets you can find here.
2) [Warrior] DPS Spreadsheet 2.3 and beyond for your Str/Crit gem comparisons.
MaxDPS just isn't as accurate as the spreadsheets you can find here.
Loot Rank is a much better source than MaxDPS given the far more customizable weighting system.
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
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Originally Posted by madrussian
We just got done with hyjal (minus archimonde) with me playing 26/35 spec. All I can say is WOOOOW! Not that trash dps matters too much but DAMN, trash dps went up SIGNIFICANTLY, and boss dps was on par with my normal 17/44 DW setup, Im still getting used to the rotations for this, when to HS or slam but I think I will be sticking with this spec for awhile, its definately a lot more fun to play.
Here is the WWS LINK P.S. I wasnt in for the whole TK raid and only got in after winterchill for hyjal. |
Last edited by Graul : 02/27/08 at 5:57 PM.
Does anyone raid without an enhancement shaman?
My DPS has been lackluster lately, but I used to be #1 almost all the time when we had an enh shaman.
It's depressing when your guildmates say you suck nowadays and scoff at me when I tell them it's because I don't have an enhancement shaman anymore.
My DPS has been lackluster lately, but I used to be #1 almost all the time when we had an enh shaman.
It's depressing when your guildmates say you suck nowadays and scoff at me when I tell them it's because I don't have an enhancement shaman anymore.
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Originally Posted by Graul
Guess I misread your post. I thought you were trying a 26/35 DW build (because unless I am mistaken, that is what the most recent 25/36 discussion was about)...and seeing Slam in there didn't make much sense.
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If you eventually do end up getting a DST, with 5/5 Flurry, you might not be able to Slam efficiently all of the time, unless your Flurry is virtually up 100% of the time. The timing is tricky enough with 3/5. And with your gear, and a DST you can pretty much just skip Slamming quite often and simply spamstring instead. I'm curious about the difference in both personal and raid DPS between 33/28 and the build you are currently trying out. Do you already have another Warrior doing BF? Of course that's not the end of the world if you don't, I just don't see why you wouldn't just be 33/28 though if not since you want to use a 2h right now anyway.
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
goneskies
Last edited by wazzah : 02/27/08 at 10:10 PM. Reason: Think I quoted an old post.
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Originally Posted by Graul
If you eventually do end up getting a DST, with 5/5 Flurry, you might not be able to Slam efficiently all of the time, unless your Flurry is virtually up 100% of the time. The timing is tricky enough with 3/5. And with your gear, and a DST you can pretty much just skip Slamming quite often and simply spamstring instead. I'm curious about the difference in both personal and raid DPS between 33/28 and the build you are currently trying out. Do you already have another Warrior doing BF? Of course that's not the end of the world if you don't, I just don't see why you wouldn't just be 33/28 though if not since you want to use a 2h right now anyway.
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Originally Posted by madrussian
In my post above I noted that taking IMP slam might have been a mistake, I've only used it a few times and it seemed like a waste to use it. Cleave for trash or heroic strike on bosses with hamstring was much better dps for me, we dont force specs so sometimes its either me or another dps warrior that has BF, sometimes we dont. But as far as personal dps goes for me this build seemed better than 33/28 or 17/44 and also a lot easier to play. If I happen to get lucky and pick up a DST I will most likely have to go respec and put the 2 pts from imp slam somewhere else.
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A) Slam timings is hard with 5/5 flurry and when hero goes up you can forget about it.
b) as with any 2hand rage can be a huge problem and for me it was
c) i think a whole new cycle will be needed without slam and with new haste items from sunwell
but for now ill hang back and go for 17/44, but the potential is there for a 2hand fury return, i can see it.
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Originally Posted by Blakadder
call it coincidence btw i was experimenting with this spec earlier tonight in a complete black temple run, i chosen 21/40 arms fury, the potential is there for insane damage output but i did have a few snags with it;
A) Slam timings is hard with 5/5 flurry and when hero goes up you can forget about it. b) as with any 2hand rage can be a huge problem and for me it was c) i think a whole new cycle will be needed without slam and with new haste items from sunwell but for now ill hang back and go for 17/44, but the potential is there for a 2hand fury return, i can see it. |
Many pages back there was a sweet macro that used you could hit to use either bloodthirst or WW when they were off cd. However I had to format, and after scouring this thread for the better part of 2 hours, i cant find the damn thing. Would anyone be able to reprint that macro for me?
Also, is it possible to use a similar macro with bloodthirst and execute? Thanks.
Also, is it possible to use a similar macro with bloodthirst and execute? Thanks.
/castsequence reset=18 Bloodthirst, Whirlwind, Bloodthirst, Whirlwind, Bloodthirst
Personally I wouldn't use an execute/Bloodthirst macro (if there even is one (not that I use the one I just pasted)). I know it's advocated to use BT over execute if you have 30 rage, but with a lot of good stuff going sub 20%, chances are good you'll have a lot more than 30 rage to spend every 1.5 second. In my experience I'm better off mindlessly spamming execute. Of course, that's where a macro as you mentioned would be handy.
Personally I wouldn't use an execute/Bloodthirst macro (if there even is one (not that I use the one I just pasted)). I know it's advocated to use BT over execute if you have 30 rage, but with a lot of good stuff going sub 20%, chances are good you'll have a lot more than 30 rage to spend every 1.5 second. In my experience I'm better off mindlessly spamming execute. Of course, that's where a macro as you mentioned would be handy.
This is my first post!
Quick easy question for you guys.
We have a few Furry warriors which we raid Kara with, and they seem to be doing below average on DPS. The have PvP gear but mostly S3 and have S1 weapons, with some other random Purples. Neither of these players really go out on the web and search for ways to up DPS, they are pretty casual in their play style. As a lock, I know what my spell rotation when I raid affliction as well as Destro. Is there a good beginner raid rotation for a Warrior that would help these guys out.
Thanks in advance, and if this is discussed somewhere, PLEASE tell me so I don't make any more post to waste people's time.
Quick easy question for you guys.
We have a few Furry warriors which we raid Kara with, and they seem to be doing below average on DPS. The have PvP gear but mostly S3 and have S1 weapons, with some other random Purples. Neither of these players really go out on the web and search for ways to up DPS, they are pretty casual in their play style. As a lock, I know what my spell rotation when I raid affliction as well as Destro. Is there a good beginner raid rotation for a Warrior that would help these guys out.
Thanks in advance, and if this is discussed somewhere, PLEASE tell me so I don't make any more post to waste people's time.
I'm testing this spec out (25/36) also. I'm using 2x Blade of Infamy, but I'm curious about how well the fast OH would alter it. Hopefully I can get my hands on a Blade off Mother. I'll let you know how it goes.
Do we have any evidence regarding OH sword spec procs?
I currently use a Talon MH/Decapitator OH during execute phase. The speeds are far from ideal, and I have a Talonblade also. I had been favoring the Decapitator because it has a Mongoose enchant, but the Talonblade has Potency, and if it can proc a MH swing from sword spec, it should be better for DW Execute. For reference the Talon (as well as my normal Twinblade) has Executioner.
I currently use a Talon MH/Decapitator OH during execute phase. The speeds are far from ideal, and I have a Talonblade also. I had been favoring the Decapitator because it has a Mongoose enchant, but the Talonblade has Potency, and if it can proc a MH swing from sword spec, it should be better for DW Execute. For reference the Talon (as well as my normal Twinblade) has Executioner.
Just from preliminary tests on the Servants in Blasted Lands, Executes with Sword Spec are far easier to do. I can hit BT, Execute twice, and still have BT up for the next rotation. Its quite nice in that aspect.
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Originally Posted by Apate
Do we have any evidence regarding OH sword spec procs?
I currently use a Talon MH/Decapitator OH during execute phase. The speeds are far from ideal, and I have a Talonblade also. I had been favoring the Decapitator because it has a Mongoose enchant, but the Talonblade has Potency, and if it can proc a MH swing from sword spec, it should be better for DW Execute. For reference the Talon (as well as my normal Twinblade) has Executioner. |
Would the best way of gearing for the sword spec be more like a rogue, stacking more hit and possibly haste in order to increase your white damage, which seems the point of the spec? The only problem I see is with more hit you're going to get less ap/crit and without the ability for on demand flurry as the rogues have with SnD is it ever going to be near competitive? I tried the spec a while ago and it was a lot of fun would be nice to have another raiding DW spec.
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Originally Posted by Bogeyman
Would the best way of gearing for the sword spec be more like a rogue, stacking more hit and possibly haste in order to increase your white damage, which seems the point of the spec? The only problem I see is with more hit you're going to get less ap/crit and without the ability for on demand flurry as the rogues have with SnD is it ever going to be near competitive? I tried the spec a while ago and it was a lot of fun would be nice to have another raiding DW spec.
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I had my 2nd night as 26/35 last night, killing Illidari Council and then spending the rest of the night learning Illidan. Since phase 1 is mostly just tank and spank, it seemed a fairly good test of the spec, and I have to say I was dissappointed. It had been quite good on the council, where not having to keep up rampage was a blessing, but when just standing there and nuking, it seemed to fall quite behind. I don't have a WWS but looking at recount after each try I was lagging sorely behind our other melee and hunters. Some of this could be due to my unfamiliarity with the spec, but at present I don't think it's going to be good enough to be competitive with 17/44 with my current gear.
For now, I think I'm going to go back to 17/44, but I'm going to do some more theorycrafting, in particularly on how hit (and to a lesser extent haste) affect the 2 builds, and then maybe come back to it later if I find a 'more optimal' gear loadout for the spec.
So for now, my summary on 26/35 is - good spec, fun if you want something different, but currently not really competitive with 17/44.
I just want to bring up an idea for discussion that I brought up in the DPS Warrior Spreadsheet thread.
Considering the amount of armor penetration items currently in game and soon-to-be in game from Sunwell, Warriors can easily get past the armor penetration "cap," the amount of armor penetration you should stay under in order to get the maximum benefit from executioner. In other words, whenever executioner is up, a certain amount of your static armor penetration is being wasted. Therefore, would it be better to switch over to mongoose for for a weapon enchants for both 2h and DW weapons?
Considering the amount of armor penetration items currently in game and soon-to-be in game from Sunwell, Warriors can easily get past the armor penetration "cap," the amount of armor penetration you should stay under in order to get the maximum benefit from executioner. In other words, whenever executioner is up, a certain amount of your static armor penetration is being wasted. Therefore, would it be better to switch over to mongoose for for a weapon enchants for both 2h and DW weapons?
Of course Mongoose is better than executioner when you are ArP capped. You should be able to use the spreadsheet to determine whether you are better served by a new weapon enchant or by swapping gear out (say, crit for ArP). You may also consider having an "over cap" set for bosses with higher armor, although I don't know how that would play out relative to other setups; perhaps the spreadsheet can shed some light on that as well.
T6 instance bosses have a minimum of 6200 armor. Assuming all buffs are up on the boss, -2600 from sunder armors, -610 from faerie fire, -800 from curse of recklessness and -840 from executioner proc on you:
6200 - 2600 - 610 - 800 - 840 = 1350
So you can have up to -1350 static ArP on your gear before you start wasting the stat; -2190 ArP if you go with Mongoose.
6200 - 2600 - 610 - 800 - 840 = 1350
So you can have up to -1350 static ArP on your gear before you start wasting the stat; -2190 ArP if you go with Mongoose.
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Originally Posted by Moogul
Possibly, that's what I'm wondering.
I had my 2nd night as 26/35 last night, killing Illidari Council and then spending the rest of the night learning Illidan. Since phase 1 is mostly just tank and spank, it seemed a fairly good test of the spec, and I have to say I was dissappointed. It had been quite good on the council, where not having to keep up rampage was a blessing, but when just standing there and nuking, it seemed to fall quite behind. I don't have a WWS but looking at recount after each try I was lagging sorely behind our other melee and hunters. Some of this could be due to my unfamiliarity with the spec, but at present I don't think it's going to be good enough to be competitive with 17/44 with my current gear. For now, I think I'm going to go back to 17/44, but I'm going to do some more theorycrafting, in particularly on how hit (and to a lesser extent haste) affect the 2 builds, and then maybe come back to it later if I find a 'more optimal' gear loadout for the spec. So for now, my summary on 26/35 is - good spec, fun if you want something different, but currently not really competitive with 17/44. |
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
We just got done with hyjal (minus archimonde) with me playing 26/35 spec. All I can say is WOOOOW! Not that trash dps matters too much but DAMN, trash dps went up SIGNIFICANTLY, and boss dps was on par with my normal 17/44 DW setup, Im still getting used to the rotations for this, when to HS or slam but I think I will be sticking with this spec for awhile, its definately a lot more fun to play.
Here is the WWS LINK
P.S. I wasnt in for the whole TK raid and only got in after winterchill for hyjal.
Here is the WWS LINK
P.S. I wasnt in for the whole TK raid and only got in after winterchill for hyjal.
Last edited by madrussian : 02/27/08 at 2:52 AM.
Greetings everyone,
Im having some fun with the fury war in raids nowadays but i still got some questions. I´ve seen lots of experienced warriors in this thread and doing wonders in the WWSs, and maybe i could get some help around here. My question is about gems/stats of a fury war, particularly when it comes to choose between str/crit gems. According to maxdps.com, +8 str = 4,38 dps and +8 crit = 2,69 dps. When it comes to socketing, there is a rule to ALWAYS choose the +8 str gem? Or is there a point where the +8 crit will have a better dps feedback (mainly because of flurry)? Is there a priority list like: gear with hit until 10%, then gear/socket with crit until 30% and then stack str? Thanks in advance.
Im having some fun with the fury war in raids nowadays but i still got some questions. I´ve seen lots of experienced warriors in this thread and doing wonders in the WWSs, and maybe i could get some help around here. My question is about gems/stats of a fury war, particularly when it comes to choose between str/crit gems. According to maxdps.com, +8 str = 4,38 dps and +8 crit = 2,69 dps. When it comes to socketing, there is a rule to ALWAYS choose the +8 str gem? Or is there a point where the +8 crit will have a better dps feedback (mainly because of flurry)? Is there a priority list like: gear with hit until 10%, then gear/socket with crit until 30% and then stack str? Thanks in advance.
1) Don't let hit drop below 9% (socket hit to that point if you must).
2) [Warrior] DPS Spreadsheet 2.3 and beyond for your Str/Crit gem comparisons.
MaxDPS just isn't as accurate as the spreadsheets you can find here.
2) [Warrior] DPS Spreadsheet 2.3 and beyond for your Str/Crit gem comparisons.
MaxDPS just isn't as accurate as the spreadsheets you can find here.
Loot Rank is a much better source than MaxDPS given the far more customizable weighting system.
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
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Originally Posted by madrussian
We just got done with hyjal (minus archimonde) with me playing 26/35 spec. All I can say is WOOOOW! Not that trash dps matters too much but DAMN, trash dps went up SIGNIFICANTLY, and boss dps was on par with my normal 17/44 DW setup, Im still getting used to the rotations for this, when to HS or slam but I think I will be sticking with this spec for awhile, its definately a lot more fun to play.
Here is the WWS LINK P.S. I wasnt in for the whole TK raid and only got in after winterchill for hyjal. |
Last edited by Graul : 02/27/08 at 5:57 PM.
Does anyone raid without an enhancement shaman?
My DPS has been lackluster lately, but I used to be #1 almost all the time when we had an enh shaman.
It's depressing when your guildmates say you suck nowadays and scoff at me when I tell them it's because I don't have an enhancement shaman anymore.
My DPS has been lackluster lately, but I used to be #1 almost all the time when we had an enh shaman.
It's depressing when your guildmates say you suck nowadays and scoff at me when I tell them it's because I don't have an enhancement shaman anymore.
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Originally Posted by Graul
Guess I misread your post. I thought you were trying a 26/35 DW build (because unless I am mistaken, that is what the most recent 25/36 discussion was about)...and seeing Slam in there didn't make much sense.
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If you eventually do end up getting a DST, with 5/5 Flurry, you might not be able to Slam efficiently all of the time, unless your Flurry is virtually up 100% of the time. The timing is tricky enough with 3/5. And with your gear, and a DST you can pretty much just skip Slamming quite often and simply spamstring instead. I'm curious about the difference in both personal and raid DPS between 33/28 and the build you are currently trying out. Do you already have another Warrior doing BF? Of course that's not the end of the world if you don't, I just don't see why you wouldn't just be 33/28 though if not since you want to use a 2h right now anyway.
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
goneskies
Last edited by wazzah : 02/27/08 at 10:10 PM. Reason: Think I quoted an old post.
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Originally Posted by Graul
If you eventually do end up getting a DST, with 5/5 Flurry, you might not be able to Slam efficiently all of the time, unless your Flurry is virtually up 100% of the time. The timing is tricky enough with 3/5. And with your gear, and a DST you can pretty much just skip Slamming quite often and simply spamstring instead. I'm curious about the difference in both personal and raid DPS between 33/28 and the build you are currently trying out. Do you already have another Warrior doing BF? Of course that's not the end of the world if you don't, I just don't see why you wouldn't just be 33/28 though if not since you want to use a 2h right now anyway.
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Originally Posted by madrussian
In my post above I noted that taking IMP slam might have been a mistake, I've only used it a few times and it seemed like a waste to use it. Cleave for trash or heroic strike on bosses with hamstring was much better dps for me, we dont force specs so sometimes its either me or another dps warrior that has BF, sometimes we dont. But as far as personal dps goes for me this build seemed better than 33/28 or 17/44 and also a lot easier to play. If I happen to get lucky and pick up a DST I will most likely have to go respec and put the 2 pts from imp slam somewhere else.
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A) Slam timings is hard with 5/5 flurry and when hero goes up you can forget about it.
b) as with any 2hand rage can be a huge problem and for me it was
c) i think a whole new cycle will be needed without slam and with new haste items from sunwell
but for now ill hang back and go for 17/44, but the potential is there for a 2hand fury return, i can see it.
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Originally Posted by Blakadder
call it coincidence btw i was experimenting with this spec earlier tonight in a complete black temple run, i chosen 21/40 arms fury, the potential is there for insane damage output but i did have a few snags with it;
A) Slam timings is hard with 5/5 flurry and when hero goes up you can forget about it. b) as with any 2hand rage can be a huge problem and for me it was c) i think a whole new cycle will be needed without slam and with new haste items from sunwell but for now ill hang back and go for 17/44, but the potential is there for a 2hand fury return, i can see it. |
Many pages back there was a sweet macro that used you could hit to use either bloodthirst or WW when they were off cd. However I had to format, and after scouring this thread for the better part of 2 hours, i cant find the damn thing. Would anyone be able to reprint that macro for me?
Also, is it possible to use a similar macro with bloodthirst and execute? Thanks.
Also, is it possible to use a similar macro with bloodthirst and execute? Thanks.
/castsequence reset=18 Bloodthirst, Whirlwind, Bloodthirst, Whirlwind, Bloodthirst
Personally I wouldn't use an execute/Bloodthirst macro (if there even is one (not that I use the one I just pasted)). I know it's advocated to use BT over execute if you have 30 rage, but with a lot of good stuff going sub 20%, chances are good you'll have a lot more than 30 rage to spend every 1.5 second. In my experience I'm better off mindlessly spamming execute. Of course, that's where a macro as you mentioned would be handy.
Personally I wouldn't use an execute/Bloodthirst macro (if there even is one (not that I use the one I just pasted)). I know it's advocated to use BT over execute if you have 30 rage, but with a lot of good stuff going sub 20%, chances are good you'll have a lot more than 30 rage to spend every 1.5 second. In my experience I'm better off mindlessly spamming execute. Of course, that's where a macro as you mentioned would be handy.
This is my first post!
Quick easy question for you guys.
We have a few Furry warriors which we raid Kara with, and they seem to be doing below average on DPS. The have PvP gear but mostly S3 and have S1 weapons, with some other random Purples. Neither of these players really go out on the web and search for ways to up DPS, they are pretty casual in their play style. As a lock, I know what my spell rotation when I raid affliction as well as Destro. Is there a good beginner raid rotation for a Warrior that would help these guys out.
Thanks in advance, and if this is discussed somewhere, PLEASE tell me so I don't make any more post to waste people's time.
Quick easy question for you guys.
We have a few Furry warriors which we raid Kara with, and they seem to be doing below average on DPS. The have PvP gear but mostly S3 and have S1 weapons, with some other random Purples. Neither of these players really go out on the web and search for ways to up DPS, they are pretty casual in their play style. As a lock, I know what my spell rotation when I raid affliction as well as Destro. Is there a good beginner raid rotation for a Warrior that would help these guys out.
Thanks in advance, and if this is discussed somewhere, PLEASE tell me so I don't make any more post to waste people's time.
Not really a lot to go on there. I assume they're fury rather than furry. Are they DW? Maybe link their armory, but there's not really a rotation, just keep BT and WW on CD and use HS when rage > 60.
It's as he stated.
Maybe it has something to do with wrong positioning, group build or even gemming. Every aspects adds a little increase if done right. If their only job is DPS they should be doing >700 at least I guess.
They can push their stats with the right enchants on weapons and gear. I'd say buffs make up to 35% of their dmg (speculation). ~15% is only applying 5x sunders on a boss/mob and having cor or ff up (my raid does't use cor). So then you have shamans that will up their dmg for at least another 10% (totems, bloodlust, etc. ) and so on.
As a hint, you can take a look at the various wws reports. Just pick a fury warrior and click to the buff column. Their you will see a list of used/gained buffs during the fight. You might see drums, windfury, elixiers or weapon procs. Just compare that to your warrior setup. Warriors scale excellent with support mechanisms (as do those nice little rogues).
Besides support, picking the right weapon choices can come down to quite some different DPS behaviour. S1 is ok for kara but they should consider arena upgrades (easiest to get, true but sad).
| just keep BT and WW on CD and use HS when rage > 60. |
They can push their stats with the right enchants on weapons and gear. I'd say buffs make up to 35% of their dmg (speculation). ~15% is only applying 5x sunders on a boss/mob and having cor or ff up (my raid does't use cor). So then you have shamans that will up their dmg for at least another 10% (totems, bloodlust, etc. ) and so on.
As a hint, you can take a look at the various wws reports. Just pick a fury warrior and click to the buff column. Their you will see a list of used/gained buffs during the fight. You might see drums, windfury, elixiers or weapon procs. Just compare that to your warrior setup. Warriors scale excellent with support mechanisms (as do those nice little rogues).
Besides support, picking the right weapon choices can come down to quite some different DPS behaviour. S1 is ok for kara but they should consider arena upgrades (easiest to get, true but sad).
Raid MS Blood Frenzy Spec.
Hello guys this is my first post and I hope that you all may shed some light on my situation with raiding and my current spec. I was asked early this week by the GM that I go Blood Frenzy MS, proverbial music to my ears as it were; so I have done so and I feel that with my current spec I have implemented my points nicely, by all means if I need to change some things please let me know. What I am getting at here is after numerous attempts at a steady swing rotation I feel that given enough rage there is one that works particularly good and I have yet to deviate from it, but not doing so I feel I am not opening my doors to other things that may be set in the rotation. This is where I ask your assistance, it is sometimes a bit hard to get some detailed information from other warriors so I am posting this here.
Currently my swings go in order of {White Damage___Slam___MS(if given enough rage to complete the slam WITH the mortal strike, so 45 I believe)___WW.} I constantly keep Battle Shout up and feel that a possible cleave and or an Heroic Strike might be added to boost DPS. I would greatly appreciate it if you provide me with some specs of your own, and or an helpful spread sheet relating to my spec / situation. Please forgive me but after a bit of searching through several pages I did not find anything specifically related to my question, so if it is full of raid swing rotations for BF warriors I am sorry. Thank you all for the input.
Currently my swings go in order of {White Damage___Slam___MS(if given enough rage to complete the slam WITH the mortal strike, so 45 I believe)___WW.} I constantly keep Battle Shout up and feel that a possible cleave and or an Heroic Strike might be added to boost DPS. I would greatly appreciate it if you provide me with some specs of your own, and or an helpful spread sheet relating to my spec / situation. Please forgive me but after a bit of searching through several pages I did not find anything specifically related to my question, so if it is full of raid swing rotations for BF warriors I am sorry. Thank you all for the input.
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Originally Posted by Thulsa Doom
Currently my swings go in order of {White Damage___Slam___MS(if given enough rage to complete the slam WITH the mortal strike, so 45 I believe)___WW.} I constantly keep Battle Shout up and feel that a possible cleave and or an Heroic Strike might be added to boost DPS. I would greatly appreciate it if you provide me with some specs of your own, and or an helpful spread sheet relating to my spec / situation. Please forgive me but after a bit of searching through several pages I did not find anything specifically related to my question, so if it is full of raid swing rotations for BF warriors I am sorry. Thank you all for the input.
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The "helpful spreadsheet" that you are looking for is the warrior DPS spreadsheet, which is very easy to find here.
Hey all,
I tried reading through most of these pages to find my answers, but 128 pages worth was getting to me. I have a few questions that I thought could be answered here. I am normally a Protection warrior, but have the chance to go fury and I was unsure about a few things.
Firstly is enchants, right now I use Executioner on my MH and Potency on my OH. I have 2 2.6 speed weapons. I have seen warriors do a number of things with weapon enchants, is mongoose better for my OH?
Another is boots, I have yet to enchant them because I am stuck in between Surefooted and 12 Agil.
Does Piercing Howl actually count as a daze and increase HS dmg?
The last question is damage rotation, how can I maximize my dmg? Where should I be on the dmg meter in BT?
Thanks in advance.
I tried reading through most of these pages to find my answers, but 128 pages worth was getting to me. I have a few questions that I thought could be answered here. I am normally a Protection warrior, but have the chance to go fury and I was unsure about a few things.
Firstly is enchants, right now I use Executioner on my MH and Potency on my OH. I have 2 2.6 speed weapons. I have seen warriors do a number of things with weapon enchants, is mongoose better for my OH?
Another is boots, I have yet to enchant them because I am stuck in between Surefooted and 12 Agil.
Does Piercing Howl actually count as a daze and increase HS dmg?
The last question is damage rotation, how can I maximize my dmg? Where should I be on the dmg meter in BT?
Thanks in advance.
This spreadsheet by Grim13 answers all your questions and more. 
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
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Originally Posted by Llyrian
Ive been testing it so far in Hyjal with pretty good success. I've been top in the top 5 as high as 2 with this spec for the fights I manage to stay alive for. :P Your aggro is higher, but not enough to make it insanely hard to DPS well. Just make sure you have salv. I'll link a WWS once we're done.
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I've tried spec today and I like it. But I was able to dps only on Archimonde which is not the best boss to measure: Wow Web Stats
Last edited by Suntechnique : 03/02/08 at 8:27 PM.
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Originally Posted by Captron
Hey all,
I tried reading through most of these pages to find my answers, but 128 pages worth was getting to me. I have a few questions that I thought could be answered here. I am normally a Protection warrior, but have the chance to go fury and I was unsure about a few things. Firstly is enchants, right now I use Executioner on my MH and Potency on my OH. I have 2 2.6 speed weapons. I have seen warriors do a number of things with weapon enchants, is mongoose better for my OH? Another is boots, I have yet to enchant them because I am stuck in between Surefooted and 12 Agil. Does Piercing Howl actually count as a daze and increase HS dmg? The last question is damage rotation, how can I maximize my dmg? Where should I be on the dmg meter in BT? Thanks in advance. |
Crit becomes more and more valuable compared to AP as your gear level improves.
12agi>10hit unless your under 9%
Im pretty sure piercing howl doesnt increase HS damage but dont quote me on that.
Damage rotation is pretty simple. BT>WW>Heroic strike. Refresh rampage, battleshout demo shout and so on a little prematurely when both BT and WW are on cooldown so that you dont have to delay your BT or WW because your doing a buff/debuff.
How often you want to use heroic strike is largely dependant on gear but you just use it so that you dont run dry and become unable to use either BT or WW.
Once you have good gear you should be able to be in the top 5 on most fights that arent clearly melee unfriendly (it really depends alot on how good the rest of your dpsers are). In my own experience its hard to be #1 on anything but Archimonde (as it should be, warriors shouldnt outdps a 2x warglavie rogue) but you can be very close to it.
Id also recomend you download a spreadsheet like the previous poster said, it will make you able to answer many questsions yourself.
| Does Piercing Howl actually count as a daze and increase HS dmg? |
Piercing Howl does NOT increase the damage of Heroic Strike! It has been changed ages ago, sometime in beta if I remember correctly. Shield Bash however increases HS (and Steady Shot) damage, as does the rogue talent Blade Twisting.
12 agi vs 10hit? => go for cats swiftness (9agi + runspeed) it hast been shown that in fights of about 6minutes even the stam-runspeed enchant (boars speed) out-dpses 12 agi if you have to move for more than just 8 seconds which is almost every fight in BT/Hyjal. Cats swiftness is even better.
But I have another Question that no spreadsheet could answer:
WHY do many fury-warrior go for two 2.6 speed weapons? Is it just the +dmg from WW or is there the same flurry-"bug" as there is for enh-sham with getting 4 strikes flurried due to main and offhand striking exactly at the same time?
By now i raid with Rising Tide main and Swiftsteel Bludgeon off and i wonder why so many fury-warrior go for Blade of infamy because the stats on the Bludgeon seem superior to the agi on the blade due to the bad warrior multiplicator ~33agi/%crit...
Hope you could help me.
But I have another Question that no spreadsheet could answer:
WHY do many fury-warrior go for two 2.6 speed weapons? Is it just the +dmg from WW or is there the same flurry-"bug" as there is for enh-sham with getting 4 strikes flurried due to main and offhand striking exactly at the same time?
By now i raid with Rising Tide main and Swiftsteel Bludgeon off and i wonder why so many fury-warrior go for Blade of infamy because the stats on the Bludgeon seem superior to the agi on the blade due to the bad warrior multiplicator ~33agi/%crit...
Hope you could help me.
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
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Originally Posted by Captron
Firstly is enchants, right now I use Executioner on my MH and Potency on my OH. I have 2 2.6 speed weapons. I have seen warriors do a number of things with weapon enchants, is mongoose better for my OH? Another is boots, I have yet to enchant them because I am stuck in between Surefooted and 12 Agil. Does Piercing Howl actually count as a daze and increase HS dmg? The last question is damage rotation, how can I maximize my dmg? Where should I be on the dmg meter in BT? |
As far as your boots are concerned, it is dependant to what your current +hit is. If your hit is not in the ball park of 200 I would recomend surefooted. If you are going into BT though you should have access to more than enough gear that allows you to reach that point. Approximatley 39-45% of your damage will becoming from white damage, with about 12-14% missed.
I have not found Piercing howl to be benificial, far too many resist/immune to it.
The best damage rotation breakdown I have found was from Meeks dps guide at WoW Forums -> Full DW Fury Guide/FAQ(4th Edition) It also has some good introductionary information to fury.
I have found that my dps is in the range of 900-1k, going to 1.8k (highly dependant on the fight, number of mobs/adds). But of my guild out of the top five dps, two of us are fury warriors.
Last edited by Nektarious : 03/04/08 at 9:54 AM. Reason: Got updated thread for fury guide
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Originally Posted by Khurzog
But I have another Question that no spreadsheet could answer:
WHY do many fury-warrior go for two 2.6 speed weapons? Is it just the +dmg from WW or is there the same flurry-"bug" as there is for enh-sham with getting 4 strikes flurried due to main and offhand striking exactly at the same time? By now i raid with Rising Tide main and Swiftsteel Bludgeon off and i wonder why so many fury-warrior go for Blade of infamy because the stats on the Bludgeon seem superior to the agi on the blade due to the bad warrior multiplicator ~33agi/%crit... |
I know, but the spreadsheet has to simulate a fight and this simulation has to be based on some assumptions how the game mechanics work...
and this is what I'm asking for...^^
and this is what I'm asking for...^^
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Originally Posted by Dynalisia
Ironically, both of your questions can be answered by "Because according to the spreadsheet it gives the best dps".
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Originally Posted by Khurzog
I know, but the spreadsheet has to simulate a fight and this simulation has to be based on some assumptions how the game mechanics work...
and this is what I'm asking for...^^ |
Just a random selection of the general stuff:
[Warrior] DPS Spreadsheet 2.3 and beyond
Working Theories of Theorycrafting as of 2.3
[Warrior] Future of a DPS Warrior
[Warrior] Endgame PvE 2-Hand
And various threads about individual mechanics
[Warrior] Impale Overrated?
[Melee] Teron Gorefiend DPS
[Raid] Executioner vs. Mongoose, preliminary numbers
[Mechanic Primer] - Haste - How it works, and what that means.
http://elitistjerks.com/f40/t12720-m...s_flurry_work/
http://elitistjerks.com/f40/t11498-d...inkets_wanted/
http://elitistjerks.com/f40/t12667-d...ely_overrated/
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Originally Posted by Machinator
Which is a poor reason to do it if they dont understand WHY the spreadsheet says that. Im not sure the sheet takes matched speeds into account anyway, at least not fully.
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Slower OH -> more WW damage. Between any 2 given weapons (one fast, one slow), there is a combination of stats + weapon dps that would make one better, worse, or equal to the other. It's not an easy answer.
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Originally Posted by Khurzog
12 agi vs 10hit? => go for cats swiftness (9agi + runspeed) it hast been shown that in fights of about 6minutes even the stam-runspeed enchant (boars speed) out-dpses 12 agi if you have to move for more than just 8 seconds which is almost every fight in BT/Hyjal. Cats swiftness is even better.
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The hit rating is only better if your under 9% hit (95 hit rating + precision). You should be over that amount without it, and thus take an Agi enchant.
A conversation with my guild's 33/28 warrior left me unsure about something that I have been quite sure of. He said that Recklessness during Execute range was superior to a 100-20% Recklessness. His main argument was that he is unable to get rid of all the rage autoattack crits give him without Executes. I think the answer to this is Slam, but I play Arms for PvP only (I am mostly a Protection warrior), so I might be quite wrong. Is there a definite answer to the perfect Arms DPS cycle and when to activate which buffs?
Thank you guys
Thank you guys
2 wpn dmg vs 4 stats.
I always belived it was 2 wpn dmg but recently the warglaive rogue in my guild continued to insist that 4 stats was superior. any thoughts?
I always belived it was 2 wpn dmg but recently the warglaive rogue in my guild continued to insist that 4 stats was superior. any thoughts?
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Originally Posted by Arthenik
A conversation with my guild's 33/28 warrior left me unsure about something that I have been quite sure of. He said that Recklessness during Execute range was superior to a 100-20% Recklessness. His main argument was that he is unable to get rid of all the rage autoattack crits give him without Executes. I think the answer to this is Slam, but I play Arms for PvP only (I am mostly a Protection warrior), so I might be quite wrong. Is there a definite answer to the perfect Arms DPS cycle and when to activate which buffs?
Thank you guys |
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Originally Posted by Arthenik
A conversation with my guild's 33/28 warrior left me unsure about something that I have been quite sure of. He said that Recklessness during Execute range was superior to a 100-20% Recklessness. His main argument was that he is unable to get rid of all the rage autoattack crits give him without Executes. I think the answer to this is Slam, but I play Arms for PvP only (I am mostly a Protection warrior), so I might be quite wrong. Is there a definite answer to the perfect Arms DPS cycle and when to activate which buffs?
Thank you guys |
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Originally Posted by DecoyBL
2 wpn dmg vs 4 stats.
I always belived it was 2 wpn dmg but recently the warglaive rogue in my guild continued to insist that 4 stats was superior. any thoughts? |
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Originally Posted by Mem
Your rogue is right. 2 weapon damage will result in about a rise of 0,77 DPS per weapon, assuming you use a slow 2.6 weapon. 4 stats offer you 4,4 strength (-> 9 AP), a little bit crit and from a defensive point of view also 4 stamina and dodge/armor (though the latter won't matter on anything than trash). Weapon damage enchants are probably only usefull for dagger rogues.
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This may or may not really be the most appropriate place for this. But I'm more or less at a wits end here. For a touch of back story, I was a prot warrior in my guild for several months and nearly a month ago, we had an influx of new tanks who were eager to get much time in. In an effort to alleviate some of the tanks not getting cycled into raids(as well as to fill in the lack of any DPS warrior), I went fury. I spent hours grinding for enchant materials, for consumables and re-gemming the majority of my gear to make sure there wouldn't be a drop off in raid DPS by having me in as fury. I poured over forums, spreadsheets and have been refining my rotation daily. But, I still have so many questions that I can't seem to grasp the answer for myself. Officers in the guild tell me my DPS is just fine, but it feels to me like it isn't where it should be with my current gear. On top of that, I've got a lot of different pieces of gear that I'm having a hell of a time comparing(for some reason, my Excel locks up whenever I try to open a spreadsheet, yay!).
I'm hoping here to get some opinions, perhaps some constructive criticism and generally any ideas I can work on to improve. I'm including some WWS's that I've been a part of as well. Most of which I've run while wearing all of my current gear.
WWS Loading... (Quick three boss kill in ZA)
WWS Loading... (The remainder of the bosses not done in the previous log)
WWS Loading... (A Void Reaver kill)
WWS Loading... (A Lurker Below death)
WWS Loading... (And a Morogrim Tidewalker death)
The build I'm using now is generally the one I use most often(though I've had variations sacrificing some in DW spec for improved execute). In addition to the gear I'm wearing in the armory, I can swap out my Elven battlevest for the BP of Kings, the Vindicator's ring for the Mithril band, Razor-scale for the Dark Reaver drape(though I've been trying to figure out if Dory's Embrace or Vengeance Wrap would be a better investment than either one) and the Pendant for the Savage's Choker. I've also got the Heartless sword from ZA and am waiting for perhaps a Talon of Azshara to see if 10 extra expertise from human racials would net more DPS than my current Fury/Rage setup. Trinket wise, I'm working on replacing my Abacus, hopefully with a DST or Tsunami Talisman(though I wouldn't complain if a Berserker's Call dropped).
Am I missing something, is there something wrong with my talents, my gear setup(should I be using less ArP or pick up Dory's for a little extra, for instance). Or maybe some different gem choices?
Pick me apart, tear me down. I'd appreciate it any input I can get.
I'm hoping here to get some opinions, perhaps some constructive criticism and generally any ideas I can work on to improve. I'm including some WWS's that I've been a part of as well. Most of which I've run while wearing all of my current gear.
WWS Loading... (Quick three boss kill in ZA)
WWS Loading... (The remainder of the bosses not done in the previous log)
WWS Loading... (A Void Reaver kill)
WWS Loading... (A Lurker Below death)
WWS Loading... (And a Morogrim Tidewalker death)
The build I'm using now is generally the one I use most often(though I've had variations sacrificing some in DW spec for improved execute). In addition to the gear I'm wearing in the armory, I can swap out my Elven battlevest for the BP of Kings, the Vindicator's ring for the Mithril band, Razor-scale for the Dark Reaver drape(though I've been trying to figure out if Dory's Embrace or Vengeance Wrap would be a better investment than either one) and the Pendant for the Savage's Choker. I've also got the Heartless sword from ZA and am waiting for perhaps a Talon of Azshara to see if 10 extra expertise from human racials would net more DPS than my current Fury/Rage setup. Trinket wise, I'm working on replacing my Abacus, hopefully with a DST or Tsunami Talisman(though I wouldn't complain if a Berserker's Call dropped).
Am I missing something, is there something wrong with my talents, my gear setup(should I be using less ArP or pick up Dory's for a little extra, for instance). Or maybe some different gem choices?
Pick me apart, tear me down. I'd appreciate it any input I can get.
Not really a lot to go on there. I assume they're fury rather than furry. Are they DW? Maybe link their armory, but there's not really a rotation, just keep BT and WW on CD and use HS when rage > 60.
It's as he stated.
Maybe it has something to do with wrong positioning, group build or even gemming. Every aspects adds a little increase if done right. If their only job is DPS they should be doing >700 at least I guess.
They can push their stats with the right enchants on weapons and gear. I'd say buffs make up to 35% of their dmg (speculation). ~15% is only applying 5x sunders on a boss/mob and having cor or ff up (my raid does't use cor). So then you have shamans that will up their dmg for at least another 10% (totems, bloodlust, etc. ) and so on.
As a hint, you can take a look at the various wws reports. Just pick a fury warrior and click to the buff column. Their you will see a list of used/gained buffs during the fight. You might see drums, windfury, elixiers or weapon procs. Just compare that to your warrior setup. Warriors scale excellent with support mechanisms (as do those nice little rogues).
Besides support, picking the right weapon choices can come down to quite some different DPS behaviour. S1 is ok for kara but they should consider arena upgrades (easiest to get, true but sad).
| just keep BT and WW on CD and use HS when rage > 60. |
They can push their stats with the right enchants on weapons and gear. I'd say buffs make up to 35% of their dmg (speculation). ~15% is only applying 5x sunders on a boss/mob and having cor or ff up (my raid does't use cor). So then you have shamans that will up their dmg for at least another 10% (totems, bloodlust, etc. ) and so on.
As a hint, you can take a look at the various wws reports. Just pick a fury warrior and click to the buff column. Their you will see a list of used/gained buffs during the fight. You might see drums, windfury, elixiers or weapon procs. Just compare that to your warrior setup. Warriors scale excellent with support mechanisms (as do those nice little rogues).
Besides support, picking the right weapon choices can come down to quite some different DPS behaviour. S1 is ok for kara but they should consider arena upgrades (easiest to get, true but sad).
Raid MS Blood Frenzy Spec.
Hello guys this is my first post and I hope that you all may shed some light on my situation with raiding and my current spec. I was asked early this week by the GM that I go Blood Frenzy MS, proverbial music to my ears as it were; so I have done so and I feel that with my current spec I have implemented my points nicely, by all means if I need to change some things please let me know. What I am getting at here is after numerous attempts at a steady swing rotation I feel that given enough rage there is one that works particularly good and I have yet to deviate from it, but not doing so I feel I am not opening my doors to other things that may be set in the rotation. This is where I ask your assistance, it is sometimes a bit hard to get some detailed information from other warriors so I am posting this here.
Currently my swings go in order of {White Damage___Slam___MS(if given enough rage to complete the slam WITH the mortal strike, so 45 I believe)___WW.} I constantly keep Battle Shout up and feel that a possible cleave and or an Heroic Strike might be added to boost DPS. I would greatly appreciate it if you provide me with some specs of your own, and or an helpful spread sheet relating to my spec / situation. Please forgive me but after a bit of searching through several pages I did not find anything specifically related to my question, so if it is full of raid swing rotations for BF warriors I am sorry. Thank you all for the input.
Currently my swings go in order of {White Damage___Slam___MS(if given enough rage to complete the slam WITH the mortal strike, so 45 I believe)___WW.} I constantly keep Battle Shout up and feel that a possible cleave and or an Heroic Strike might be added to boost DPS. I would greatly appreciate it if you provide me with some specs of your own, and or an helpful spread sheet relating to my spec / situation. Please forgive me but after a bit of searching through several pages I did not find anything specifically related to my question, so if it is full of raid swing rotations for BF warriors I am sorry. Thank you all for the input.
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Originally Posted by Thulsa Doom
Currently my swings go in order of {White Damage___Slam___MS(if given enough rage to complete the slam WITH the mortal strike, so 45 I believe)___WW.} I constantly keep Battle Shout up and feel that a possible cleave and or an Heroic Strike might be added to boost DPS. I would greatly appreciate it if you provide me with some specs of your own, and or an helpful spread sheet relating to my spec / situation. Please forgive me but after a bit of searching through several pages I did not find anything specifically related to my question, so if it is full of raid swing rotations for BF warriors I am sorry. Thank you all for the input.
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The "helpful spreadsheet" that you are looking for is the warrior DPS spreadsheet, which is very easy to find here.
Hey all,
I tried reading through most of these pages to find my answers, but 128 pages worth was getting to me. I have a few questions that I thought could be answered here. I am normally a Protection warrior, but have the chance to go fury and I was unsure about a few things.
Firstly is enchants, right now I use Executioner on my MH and Potency on my OH. I have 2 2.6 speed weapons. I have seen warriors do a number of things with weapon enchants, is mongoose better for my OH?
Another is boots, I have yet to enchant them because I am stuck in between Surefooted and 12 Agil.
Does Piercing Howl actually count as a daze and increase HS dmg?
The last question is damage rotation, how can I maximize my dmg? Where should I be on the dmg meter in BT?
Thanks in advance.
I tried reading through most of these pages to find my answers, but 128 pages worth was getting to me. I have a few questions that I thought could be answered here. I am normally a Protection warrior, but have the chance to go fury and I was unsure about a few things.
Firstly is enchants, right now I use Executioner on my MH and Potency on my OH. I have 2 2.6 speed weapons. I have seen warriors do a number of things with weapon enchants, is mongoose better for my OH?
Another is boots, I have yet to enchant them because I am stuck in between Surefooted and 12 Agil.
Does Piercing Howl actually count as a daze and increase HS dmg?
The last question is damage rotation, how can I maximize my dmg? Where should I be on the dmg meter in BT?
Thanks in advance.
This spreadsheet by Grim13 answers all your questions and more.
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
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Originally Posted by Llyrian
Ive been testing it so far in Hyjal with pretty good success. I've been top in the top 5 as high as 2 with this spec for the fights I manage to stay alive for. :P Your aggro is higher, but not enough to make it insanely hard to DPS well. Just make sure you have salv. I'll link a WWS once we're done.
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I've tried spec today and I like it. But I was able to dps only on Archimonde which is not the best boss to measure: Wow Web Stats
Last edited by Suntechnique : 03/02/08 at 8:27 PM.
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Originally Posted by Captron
Hey all,
I tried reading through most of these pages to find my answers, but 128 pages worth was getting to me. I have a few questions that I thought could be answered here. I am normally a Protection warrior, but have the chance to go fury and I was unsure about a few things. Firstly is enchants, right now I use Executioner on my MH and Potency on my OH. I have 2 2.6 speed weapons. I have seen warriors do a number of things with weapon enchants, is mongoose better for my OH? Another is boots, I have yet to enchant them because I am stuck in between Surefooted and 12 Agil. Does Piercing Howl actually count as a daze and increase HS dmg? The last question is damage rotation, how can I maximize my dmg? Where should I be on the dmg meter in BT? Thanks in advance. |
Crit becomes more and more valuable compared to AP as your gear level improves.
12agi>10hit unless your under 9%
Im pretty sure piercing howl doesnt increase HS damage but dont quote me on that.
Damage rotation is pretty simple. BT>WW>Heroic strike. Refresh rampage, battleshout demo shout and so on a little prematurely when both BT and WW are on cooldown so that you dont have to delay your BT or WW because your doing a buff/debuff.
How often you want to use heroic strike is largely dependant on gear but you just use it so that you dont run dry and become unable to use either BT or WW.
Once you have good gear you should be able to be in the top 5 on most fights that arent clearly melee unfriendly (it really depends alot on how good the rest of your dpsers are). In my own experience its hard to be #1 on anything but Archimonde (as it should be, warriors shouldnt outdps a 2x warglavie rogue) but you can be very close to it.
Id also recomend you download a spreadsheet like the previous poster said, it will make you able to answer many questsions yourself.
| Does Piercing Howl actually count as a daze and increase HS dmg? |
Piercing Howl does NOT increase the damage of Heroic Strike! It has been changed ages ago, sometime in beta if I remember correctly. Shield Bash however increases HS (and Steady Shot) damage, as does the rogue talent Blade Twisting.
12 agi vs 10hit? => go for cats swiftness (9agi + runspeed) it hast been shown that in fights of about 6minutes even the stam-runspeed enchant (boars speed) out-dpses 12 agi if you have to move for more than just 8 seconds which is almost every fight in BT/Hyjal. Cats swiftness is even better.
But I have another Question that no spreadsheet could answer:
WHY do many fury-warrior go for two 2.6 speed weapons? Is it just the +dmg from WW or is there the same flurry-"bug" as there is for enh-sham with getting 4 strikes flurried due to main and offhand striking exactly at the same time?
By now i raid with Rising Tide main and Swiftsteel Bludgeon off and i wonder why so many fury-warrior go for Blade of infamy because the stats on the Bludgeon seem superior to the agi on the blade due to the bad warrior multiplicator ~33agi/%crit...
Hope you could help me.
But I have another Question that no spreadsheet could answer:
WHY do many fury-warrior go for two 2.6 speed weapons? Is it just the +dmg from WW or is there the same flurry-"bug" as there is for enh-sham with getting 4 strikes flurried due to main and offhand striking exactly at the same time?
By now i raid with Rising Tide main and Swiftsteel Bludgeon off and i wonder why so many fury-warrior go for Blade of infamy because the stats on the Bludgeon seem superior to the agi on the blade due to the bad warrior multiplicator ~33agi/%crit...
Hope you could help me.
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
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Originally Posted by Captron
Firstly is enchants, right now I use Executioner on my MH and Potency on my OH. I have 2 2.6 speed weapons. I have seen warriors do a number of things with weapon enchants, is mongoose better for my OH? Another is boots, I have yet to enchant them because I am stuck in between Surefooted and 12 Agil. Does Piercing Howl actually count as a daze and increase HS dmg? The last question is damage rotation, how can I maximize my dmg? Where should I be on the dmg meter in BT? |
As far as your boots are concerned, it is dependant to what your current +hit is. If your hit is not in the ball park of 200 I would recomend surefooted. If you are going into BT though you should have access to more than enough gear that allows you to reach that point. Approximatley 39-45% of your damage will becoming from white damage, with about 12-14% missed.
I have not found Piercing howl to be benificial, far too many resist/immune to it.
The best damage rotation breakdown I have found was from Meeks dps guide at WoW Forums -> Full DW Fury Guide/FAQ(4th Edition) It also has some good introductionary information to fury.
I have found that my dps is in the range of 900-1k, going to 1.8k (highly dependant on the fight, number of mobs/adds). But of my guild out of the top five dps, two of us are fury warriors.
Last edited by Nektarious : 03/04/08 at 9:54 AM. Reason: Got updated thread for fury guide
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Originally Posted by Khurzog
But I have another Question that no spreadsheet could answer:
WHY do many fury-warrior go for two 2.6 speed weapons? Is it just the +dmg from WW or is there the same flurry-"bug" as there is for enh-sham with getting 4 strikes flurried due to main and offhand striking exactly at the same time? By now i raid with Rising Tide main and Swiftsteel Bludgeon off and i wonder why so many fury-warrior go for Blade of infamy because the stats on the Bludgeon seem superior to the agi on the blade due to the bad warrior multiplicator ~33agi/%crit... |
I know, but the spreadsheet has to simulate a fight and this simulation has to be based on some assumptions how the game mechanics work...
and this is what I'm asking for...^^
and this is what I'm asking for...^^
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Originally Posted by Dynalisia
Ironically, both of your questions can be answered by "Because according to the spreadsheet it gives the best dps".
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Originally Posted by Khurzog
I know, but the spreadsheet has to simulate a fight and this simulation has to be based on some assumptions how the game mechanics work...
and this is what I'm asking for...^^ |
Just a random selection of the general stuff:
[Warrior] DPS Spreadsheet 2.3 and beyond
Working Theories of Theorycrafting as of 2.3
[Warrior] Future of a DPS Warrior
[Warrior] Endgame PvE 2-Hand
And various threads about individual mechanics
[Warrior] Impale Overrated?
[Melee] Teron Gorefiend DPS
[Raid] Executioner vs. Mongoose, preliminary numbers
[Mechanic Primer] - Haste - How it works, and what that means.
http://elitistjerks.com/f40/t12720-m...s_flurry_work/
http://elitistjerks.com/f40/t11498-d...inkets_wanted/
http://elitistjerks.com/f40/t12667-d...ely_overrated/
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Originally Posted by Machinator
Which is a poor reason to do it if they dont understand WHY the spreadsheet says that. Im not sure the sheet takes matched speeds into account anyway, at least not fully.
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Slower OH -> more WW damage. Between any 2 given weapons (one fast, one slow), there is a combination of stats + weapon dps that would make one better, worse, or equal to the other. It's not an easy answer.
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Originally Posted by Khurzog
12 agi vs 10hit? => go for cats swiftness (9agi + runspeed) it hast been shown that in fights of about 6minutes even the stam-runspeed enchant (boars speed) out-dpses 12 agi if you have to move for more than just 8 seconds which is almost every fight in BT/Hyjal. Cats swiftness is even better.
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The hit rating is only better if your under 9% hit (95 hit rating + precision). You should be over that amount without it, and thus take an Agi enchant.
A conversation with my guild's 33/28 warrior left me unsure about something that I have been quite sure of. He said that Recklessness during Execute range was superior to a 100-20% Recklessness. His main argument was that he is unable to get rid of all the rage autoattack crits give him without Executes. I think the answer to this is Slam, but I play Arms for PvP only (I am mostly a Protection warrior), so I might be quite wrong. Is there a definite answer to the perfect Arms DPS cycle and when to activate which buffs?
Thank you guys
Thank you guys
2 wpn dmg vs 4 stats.
I always belived it was 2 wpn dmg but recently the warglaive rogue in my guild continued to insist that 4 stats was superior. any thoughts?
I always belived it was 2 wpn dmg but recently the warglaive rogue in my guild continued to insist that 4 stats was superior. any thoughts?
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Originally Posted by Arthenik
A conversation with my guild's 33/28 warrior left me unsure about something that I have been quite sure of. He said that Recklessness during Execute range was superior to a 100-20% Recklessness. His main argument was that he is unable to get rid of all the rage autoattack crits give him without Executes. I think the answer to this is Slam, but I play Arms for PvP only (I am mostly a Protection warrior), so I might be quite wrong. Is there a definite answer to the perfect Arms DPS cycle and when to activate which buffs?
Thank you guys |
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Originally Posted by Arthenik
A conversation with my guild's 33/28 warrior left me unsure about something that I have been quite sure of. He said that Recklessness during Execute range was superior to a 100-20% Recklessness. His main argument was that he is unable to get rid of all the rage autoattack crits give him without Executes. I think the answer to this is Slam, but I play Arms for PvP only (I am mostly a Protection warrior), so I might be quite wrong. Is there a definite answer to the perfect Arms DPS cycle and when to activate which buffs?
Thank you guys |
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Originally Posted by DecoyBL
2 wpn dmg vs 4 stats.
I always belived it was 2 wpn dmg but recently the warglaive rogue in my guild continued to insist that 4 stats was superior. any thoughts? |
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Originally Posted by Mem
Your rogue is right. 2 weapon damage will result in about a rise of 0,77 DPS per weapon, assuming you use a slow 2.6 weapon. 4 stats offer you 4,4 strength (-> 9 AP), a little bit crit and from a defensive point of view also 4 stamina and dodge/armor (though the latter won't matter on anything than trash). Weapon damage enchants are probably only usefull for dagger rogues.
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This may or may not really be the most appropriate place for this. But I'm more or less at a wits end here. For a touch of back story, I was a prot warrior in my guild for several months and nearly a month ago, we had an influx of new tanks who were eager to get much time in. In an effort to alleviate some of the tanks not getting cycled into raids(as well as to fill in the lack of any DPS warrior), I went fury. I spent hours grinding for enchant materials, for consumables and re-gemming the majority of my gear to make sure there wouldn't be a drop off in raid DPS by having me in as fury. I poured over forums, spreadsheets and have been refining my rotation daily. But, I still have so many questions that I can't seem to grasp the answer for myself. Officers in the guild tell me my DPS is just fine, but it feels to me like it isn't where it should be with my current gear. On top of that, I've got a lot of different pieces of gear that I'm having a hell of a time comparing(for some reason, my Excel locks up whenever I try to open a spreadsheet, yay!).
I'm hoping here to get some opinions, perhaps some constructive criticism and generally any ideas I can work on to improve. I'm including some WWS's that I've been a part of as well. Most of which I've run while wearing all of my current gear.
WWS Loading... (Quick three boss kill in ZA)
WWS Loading... (The remainder of the bosses not done in the previous log)
WWS Loading... (A Void Reaver kill)
WWS Loading... (A Lurker Below death)
WWS Loading... (And a Morogrim Tidewalker death)
The build I'm using now is generally the one I use most often(though I've had variations sacrificing some in DW spec for improved execute). In addition to the gear I'm wearing in the armory, I can swap out my Elven battlevest for the BP of Kings, the Vindicator's ring for the Mithril band, Razor-scale for the Dark Reaver drape(though I've been trying to figure out if Dory's Embrace or Vengeance Wrap would be a better investment than either one) and the Pendant for the Savage's Choker. I've also got the Heartless sword from ZA and am waiting for perhaps a Talon of Azshara to see if 10 extra expertise from human racials would net more DPS than my current Fury/Rage setup. Trinket wise, I'm working on replacing my Abacus, hopefully with a DST or Tsunami Talisman(though I wouldn't complain if a Berserker's Call dropped).
Am I missing something, is there something wrong with my talents, my gear setup(should I be using less ArP or pick up Dory's for a little extra, for instance). Or maybe some different gem choices?
Pick me apart, tear me down. I'd appreciate it any input I can get.
I'm hoping here to get some opinions, perhaps some constructive criticism and generally any ideas I can work on to improve. I'm including some WWS's that I've been a part of as well. Most of which I've run while wearing all of my current gear.
WWS Loading... (Quick three boss kill in ZA)
WWS Loading... (The remainder of the bosses not done in the previous log)
WWS Loading... (A Void Reaver kill)
WWS Loading... (A Lurker Below death)
WWS Loading... (And a Morogrim Tidewalker death)
The build I'm using now is generally the one I use most often(though I've had variations sacrificing some in DW spec for improved execute). In addition to the gear I'm wearing in the armory, I can swap out my Elven battlevest for the BP of Kings, the Vindicator's ring for the Mithril band, Razor-scale for the Dark Reaver drape(though I've been trying to figure out if Dory's Embrace or Vengeance Wrap would be a better investment than either one) and the Pendant for the Savage's Choker. I've also got the Heartless sword from ZA and am waiting for perhaps a Talon of Azshara to see if 10 extra expertise from human racials would net more DPS than my current Fury/Rage setup. Trinket wise, I'm working on replacing my Abacus, hopefully with a DST or Tsunami Talisman(though I wouldn't complain if a Berserker's Call dropped).
Am I missing something, is there something wrong with my talents, my gear setup(should I be using less ArP or pick up Dory's for a little extra, for instance). Or maybe some different gem choices?
Pick me apart, tear me down. I'd appreciate it any input I can get.
Your spec seems to be okay, just two little changes, Drop Piercing Howl for the last point in dw and go for at leat 2/5 imp demo and 3/5 unbrielded wrath if your raids has few wls for CoR if CoR is possible go for 5/5 imp Demo and 0/5 unbrielded wrath.
That was actually my initial build when I first went fury. Ironically, the guild's MT requested that I remove improve demo shout and go 5/5 into Unbridled Wrath, as well as sacrificing a point from DW or Commanding Presence for Piercing Howl for utility(murlocs on Morogrim, chickenhawks on Jan'alai were some of the things he cited).
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Originally Posted by Nihilistic Requiem
That was actually my initial build when I first went fury. Ironically, the guild's MT requested that I remove improve demo shout and go 5/5 into Unbridled Wrath, as well as sacrificing a point from DW or Commanding Presence for Piercing Howl for utility(murlocs on Morogrim, chickenhawks on Jan'alai were some of the things he cited).
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I agree. I suppose the question remains. Do I drop two points from UW and pick up 2/5 of demo and perhaps drop to 4/5 of Commanding Presence to go 5/5 DW Spec or not. I did try a build with 5/5 imp demo and 0/5 UW. But I don't always have an enhancement shaman available to me in raids, and there are times where I did feel somewhat rage starved in fights(whether because of dual 2.6 speed weapons or a complete lack of haste, I can't really say).
More than that, I don't know if the haste on say, Savage's Choker from ZA outweighs the raw DPS stats of the Pendant from SSC and would alleviate some of the potential of being rage starved. I'd think I'd probably need more haste than what's provided on that single piece of equipment. Much like my dilemma with having a few minor ArP items(about 210ish without executioner proccing) and not knowing if Dory's embrace would be a better investment over what I have now, or what I can farm for with the Vengeance Wrap; or if I should just use my Mithril band over the Vindicator's ring and BP of Kings and upgrade that to the second and possibly third tier over the Battlevest.
More than that, I don't know if the haste on say, Savage's Choker from ZA outweighs the raw DPS stats of the Pendant from SSC and would alleviate some of the potential of being rage starved. I'd think I'd probably need more haste than what's provided on that single piece of equipment. Much like my dilemma with having a few minor ArP items(about 210ish without executioner proccing) and not knowing if Dory's embrace would be a better investment over what I have now, or what I can farm for with the Vengeance Wrap; or if I should just use my Mithril band over the Vindicator's ring and BP of Kings and upgrade that to the second and possibly third tier over the Battlevest.
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Originally Posted by Nihilistic Requiem
More than that, I don't know if the haste on say, Savage's Choker from ZA outweighs the raw DPS stats of the Pendant from SSC and would alleviate some of the potential of being rage starved. I'd think I'd probably need more haste than what's provided on that single piece of equipment. Much like my dilemma with having a few minor ArP items(about 210ish without executioner proccing) and not knowing if Dory's embrace would be a better investment over what I have now, or what I can farm for with the Vengeance Wrap; or if I should just use my Mithril band over the Vindicator's ring and BP of Kings and upgrade that to the second and possibly third tier over the Battlevest.
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Will do. I've been having an issue with spreadsheets, basically just locking up when I try to plug any info in and forcing me to kill the program. I'll have to reinstall Excel and see if it fixes.
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
| Pick me apart, tear me down. I'd appreciate it any input I can get. |
What I find interesting, that you have only 124 Hit, that's a little low from my personal point of view. You can change that fairly simple by using BP of Kings and upgrading it to BP of the ancient kings if possible. The elven battlevest features awful lot of stamina and provides besides crit and str not a good boost. The ArP is nice, but 56+161= 217 ArP , well nice, but marginal for now.
I guess that you experience rage problems, due to the low hit rating. Another thing is your cloak you are better off taking Vengeance Wrap. It even gives you some hit with a red 8 Str. Besides that you should consider getting the the epic leather pants from heroic's it has better stats with hit.
This was just my thoughts on a fast upgrade. BP of ancients kings is a great investment until T6 content or S3 arena.
For the rage starvation, you might have to take a faster offhand, since your low hit will come down on you from time to time. 2,6 speed used with hs and a sudden miss streak can interrupt every rotation.
I use 2,7 speed weapons on trash for bigger ww's but on bosses I started to use the dagger of vasjh again because the spreadsheets tells me that it increases my dmg (expertise does work out it seems). I can't even say if vashj does increase my dps, but it provides a steady rage flow at least. And I find myself almost never rage starved, by a miscalculated hs.
Last edited by DKP-Borgar : 03/05/08 at 5:55 PM.
Excellent, much appreciated. I was under the impression that the general 9% special cap was good and then not worry about hit unless it comes packaged with gear. With some marginal time invested, I can upgrade my BP of Kings to the second tier and likely the third within a few weeks time.
As for weapons, I've noticed the streaks can be killer both ways. Streaks of incredible crits and rage, streaks of nothing towards the end of a rampage duration that essentially force me to start my rotation from scratch again. But at the moment, my options are fairly limited. The 'quickest' offhand I have at the moment is probably the Emerald Ripper I have sitting in my bank. Hopefully I'll get a lucky drop with something that I can use a bit more effectively. I'm also hoping that if I find a sword or mace to use with my Heartless(not ideal for a fury warrior, I'm sure), the 10 extra expertise might help a bit with my rage generation.
For legs, we should have Solarian on farm in short order(downed her on our second attempt and the difficulty seemed fairly minimal) and I'm hoping to get those, though I dislike 'relying' on a possible drop and I've been putting some serious consideration into forking over badges for the current DPS plate legs as they have a ton of hit at the expense of a ton of crit, likely.
In other news, I've already started farming for the wrap, so I suppose I'll hold off on Dory's for the time being.
As for weapons, I've noticed the streaks can be killer both ways. Streaks of incredible crits and rage, streaks of nothing towards the end of a rampage duration that essentially force me to start my rotation from scratch again. But at the moment, my options are fairly limited. The 'quickest' offhand I have at the moment is probably the Emerald Ripper I have sitting in my bank. Hopefully I'll get a lucky drop with something that I can use a bit more effectively. I'm also hoping that if I find a sword or mace to use with my Heartless(not ideal for a fury warrior, I'm sure), the 10 extra expertise might help a bit with my rage generation.
For legs, we should have Solarian on farm in short order(downed her on our second attempt and the difficulty seemed fairly minimal) and I'm hoping to get those, though I dislike 'relying' on a possible drop and I've been putting some serious consideration into forking over badges for the current DPS plate legs as they have a ton of hit at the expense of a ton of crit, likely.
In other news, I've already started farming for the wrap, so I suppose I'll hold off on Dory's for the time being.
|
Originally Posted by Nihilistic Requiem
I dislike 'relying' on a possible drop
|
I should have phrased that a bit better than, my mistake. I dislike relying on a drop to upgrade a piece of gear, when I know I can get an upgrade through farming mats for a crafted epic that I'm guaranteed for in the meantime. Naturally, there's times where that isn't possible, but when it is, I like to do everything I can within my power first as well.
If you want garauntees, join an arena team and get the S3 arena items. Either buy points or wait 3-4 weeks for enough points for S3 legs or chestpiece. Honestly, that is the fastest way to get significant garaunteed upgrades to your gear. You could PvP, Arena, farm, and get badges at the same time to get gear from more sources so you can gear up faster.
|
Originally Posted by Nihilistic Requiem
Excellent, much appreciated. I was under the impression that the general 9% special cap was good and then not worry about hit unless it comes packaged with gear.
|
Can anyone break down haste vs. armor penetration for a 17/44/0 warrior? first blizz added a bunch of plate w/armor penetration, now w/2.4 they are adding badge gear w/haste (which imo is completely garbage gear btw, and like the original badge plate dps gear, utterly worthless) and some of the new plate instance drops are haste related as well, although there is armor pen gear as well (really, really, hawt armor pen gear actually). I guess what i'm asking is, can you stack enough haste rating w/Dragonstrike, and gear to make it viable vs. say 600 armor penetration (which will of course rise to over 700 possible passive armor pen. w/2.4)
Depends on a few things, armor pen isnt a linear gain, so how much you have already determines its worth. If your guild uses Curse of Recklessness, and how close you are to the armor pen cap. I dont know how much armor the new bosses have.
I think we had this dicussion on haste earlier, personally I dont think its that great and is pretty much the new agility on dps plate. Ive never looked at it with things like dragonstrike though.
I think we had this dicussion on haste earlier, personally I dont think its that great and is pretty much the new agility on dps plate. Ive never looked at it with things like dragonstrike though.
Bosses all have the same armor from SSC to BT (there's are 2-3 different levels, but it doesn't increases with higher instances). If that were the case mele would constantly get nerfed with new instances.
Also it isnt valid to compare haste to agi. Haste is really nothing more than +hit except it doesnt actually suck as much after you have a nice hit rating/hit cap for specials.
Also it isnt valid to compare haste to agi. Haste is really nothing more than +hit except it doesnt actually suck as much after you have a nice hit rating/hit cap for specials.
|
Originally Posted by Richard Gozinya
Can anyone break down haste vs. armor penetration for a 17/44/0 warrior? first blizz added a bunch of plate w/armor penetration, now w/2.4 they are adding badge gear w/haste (which imo is completely garbage gear btw, and like the original badge plate dps gear, utterly worthless) and some of the new plate instance drops are haste related as well, although there is armor pen gear as well (really, really, hawt armor pen gear actually). I guess what i'm asking is, can you stack enough haste rating w/Dragonstrike, and gear to make it viable vs. say 600 armor penetration (which will of course rise to over 700 possible passive armor pen. w/2.4)
|
Most people know you don't gem for hit unless your under nine percent. A similar rule can be brought in for haste, were you should just take it as an added stat, don't particularly go for items with lots of haste on them. Just go for best in slot and if it does have some haste, then fine, its nice.
Armour pen is again similar, if you want a rought value aim for a 1000 without any procs and an executioner will take you near the cap for most bosses.
Sorry to crap on this thread with a probably worthless post, but is there a stat point where Fury DPS > MS DPS if you're using mostly PvP/S1/S2 gear for MS? I have been picking up some Fury gear here and there in Kara/ZA and just wondering where my stats should be at to overtake my MS DPS.
Thanks!
Thanks!
|
Originally Posted by shed
Also it isnt valid to compare haste to agi. Haste is really nothing more than +hit except it doesnt actually suck as much after you have a nice hit rating/hit cap for specials.
|
|
Originally Posted by Overcome
Sorry to crap on this thread with a probably worthless post, but is there a stat point where Fury DPS > MS DPS if you're using mostly PvP/S1/S2 gear for MS? I have been picking up some Fury gear here and there in Kara/ZA and just wondering where my stats should be at to overtake my MS DPS.
Thanks! |
|
Originally Posted by Bevz
Armour pen is again similar, if you want a rought value aim for a 1000 without any procs and an executioner will take you near the cap for most bosses.
|
I got a little question on trinket usuage.
I used to have my trinket bound into Mortal Strike/Bloodthirst (depending on spec).
A while back I "unmacro'd" the trinket and keybound it so I could pop it during heroism.
I do notice that this has effected the uptime of the AP buff, and I don't seem to really notice any big difference in dps between the 2 ways of popping the trinket.
So I'm wondering what other people would suggest, I like the big crits/hits during hero with all CD's up, but then I also feel I'm not fully benefitting from the trinket with the way I'm using it now.
I used to have my trinket bound into Mortal Strike/Bloodthirst (depending on spec).
A while back I "unmacro'd" the trinket and keybound it so I could pop it during heroism.
I do notice that this has effected the uptime of the AP buff, and I don't seem to really notice any big difference in dps between the 2 ways of popping the trinket.
So I'm wondering what other people would suggest, I like the big crits/hits during hero with all CD's up, but then I also feel I'm not fully benefitting from the trinket with the way I'm using it now.
It depends on how you use the trinkets and other cooldowns of course. If you use them only during Heroism then you won't really see a dps increase. The key to using the cooldowns is really to use them as often as possible, and try and make it so that they come off cooldown again when your shaman pops Heroism. This obviously isn't very easy to do, but you can generally coordinate with your shaman as to when he's going to pop Heroism so you have an idea of how often/when you can use your cooldowns.
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
haste and fast OH
I'll post it here instead of the spreadsheet or the compendium thread since it's not directly related to either.
There's a lot of talk about how haste isn't the best stat for fury and that a slow weapon for OH is always better than a fast one, given equal stats. My guild just started in MH/BT, so I tested out all the weapons available in Grim's spreadsheet. My current pair is [Wicked Edge of the Planes] and [Rising Tide]. I swapped in the following weapons, retaining the same enchants on MH (executioner + windfury) and OH (mongoose + adamantite):
What surprises me most is I get the best upgrade pairing either rising tide or wicked edge with swiftsteel bludgeon. I can understand why the syphon is ranked lowly, since the proc is probably not modelled. But I'm confused about the blade of infamy. It's got AP and agility (which equates to slightly less than 1% crit). While on the other hand, the swiftsteel bludgeon has less AP and no crit, but haste and hit.
So is the spreadsheet blatantly wrong here? Or that the wisdom of hit and haste < crit and AP is at fault?
Edit: Further fiddling shows that the best dps comes from any coupling with the swiftsteel bludgeon ....
There's a lot of talk about how haste isn't the best stat for fury and that a slow weapon for OH is always better than a fast one, given equal stats. My guild just started in MH/BT, so I tested out all the weapons available in Grim's spreadsheet. My current pair is [Wicked Edge of the Planes] and [Rising Tide]. I swapped in the following weapons, retaining the same enchants on MH (executioner + windfury) and OH (mongoose + adamantite):
What surprises me most is I get the best upgrade pairing either rising tide or wicked edge with swiftsteel bludgeon. I can understand why the syphon is ranked lowly, since the proc is probably not modelled. But I'm confused about the blade of infamy. It's got AP and agility (which equates to slightly less than 1% crit). While on the other hand, the swiftsteel bludgeon has less AP and no crit, but haste and hit.
So is the spreadsheet blatantly wrong here? Or that the wisdom of hit and haste < crit and AP is at fault?
Edit: Further fiddling shows that the best dps comes from any coupling with the swiftsteel bludgeon ....
Last edited by LittleHamster : 03/12/08 at 6:43 AM.
[Swiftsteel Bludgeon] is a really good OH for sub 20% phases because of the fast and steady rage generation that is needed to execute every GCD. That said, Grim's sheet gives you 3 DPS numbers: for white damage, yellow damage and execute damage (they are just on the left of the total DPS box). Now what is happening is that the Swiftsteel gives you such a big boost on execute damage that it completely overshadows the higher white/yellow dmg the other weapon combos would give you. It does, however, not consider the fact that you can change weapons yourself just before the execute stage so I suggest you find a weapon combo that is best for the >20% phases (for me it's slow/slow) then find a weapon combo that's good for <20% like slow/swiftsteel and swap the weapons in manually for best overall DPS.
|
Originally Posted by shed
I think 1300 is a better value to shoot for.
|
Your spec seems to be okay, just two little changes, Drop Piercing Howl for the last point in dw and go for at leat 2/5 imp demo and 3/5 unbrielded wrath if your raids has few wls for CoR if CoR is possible go for 5/5 imp Demo and 0/5 unbrielded wrath.
That was actually my initial build when I first went fury. Ironically, the guild's MT requested that I remove improve demo shout and go 5/5 into Unbridled Wrath, as well as sacrificing a point from DW or Commanding Presence for Piercing Howl for utility(murlocs on Morogrim, chickenhawks on Jan'alai were some of the things he cited).
|
Originally Posted by Nihilistic Requiem
That was actually my initial build when I first went fury. Ironically, the guild's MT requested that I remove improve demo shout and go 5/5 into Unbridled Wrath, as well as sacrificing a point from DW or Commanding Presence for Piercing Howl for utility(murlocs on Morogrim, chickenhawks on Jan'alai were some of the things he cited).
|
I agree. I suppose the question remains. Do I drop two points from UW and pick up 2/5 of demo and perhaps drop to 4/5 of Commanding Presence to go 5/5 DW Spec or not. I did try a build with 5/5 imp demo and 0/5 UW. But I don't always have an enhancement shaman available to me in raids, and there are times where I did feel somewhat rage starved in fights(whether because of dual 2.6 speed weapons or a complete lack of haste, I can't really say).
More than that, I don't know if the haste on say, Savage's Choker from ZA outweighs the raw DPS stats of the Pendant from SSC and would alleviate some of the potential of being rage starved. I'd think I'd probably need more haste than what's provided on that single piece of equipment. Much like my dilemma with having a few minor ArP items(about 210ish without executioner proccing) and not knowing if Dory's embrace would be a better investment over what I have now, or what I can farm for with the Vengeance Wrap; or if I should just use my Mithril band over the Vindicator's ring and BP of Kings and upgrade that to the second and possibly third tier over the Battlevest.
More than that, I don't know if the haste on say, Savage's Choker from ZA outweighs the raw DPS stats of the Pendant from SSC and would alleviate some of the potential of being rage starved. I'd think I'd probably need more haste than what's provided on that single piece of equipment. Much like my dilemma with having a few minor ArP items(about 210ish without executioner proccing) and not knowing if Dory's embrace would be a better investment over what I have now, or what I can farm for with the Vengeance Wrap; or if I should just use my Mithril band over the Vindicator's ring and BP of Kings and upgrade that to the second and possibly third tier over the Battlevest.
|
Originally Posted by Nihilistic Requiem
More than that, I don't know if the haste on say, Savage's Choker from ZA outweighs the raw DPS stats of the Pendant from SSC and would alleviate some of the potential of being rage starved. I'd think I'd probably need more haste than what's provided on that single piece of equipment. Much like my dilemma with having a few minor ArP items(about 210ish without executioner proccing) and not knowing if Dory's embrace would be a better investment over what I have now, or what I can farm for with the Vengeance Wrap; or if I should just use my Mithril band over the Vindicator's ring and BP of Kings and upgrade that to the second and possibly third tier over the Battlevest.
|
Will do. I've been having an issue with spreadsheets, basically just locking up when I try to plug any info in and forcing me to kill the program. I'll have to reinstall Excel and see if it fixes.
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
| Pick me apart, tear me down. I'd appreciate it any input I can get. |
What I find interesting, that you have only 124 Hit, that's a little low from my personal point of view. You can change that fairly simple by using BP of Kings and upgrading it to BP of the ancient kings if possible. The elven battlevest features awful lot of stamina and provides besides crit and str not a good boost. The ArP is nice, but 56+161= 217 ArP , well nice, but marginal for now.
I guess that you experience rage problems, due to the low hit rating. Another thing is your cloak you are better off taking Vengeance Wrap. It even gives you some hit with a red 8 Str. Besides that you should consider getting the the epic leather pants from heroic's it has better stats with hit.
This was just my thoughts on a fast upgrade. BP of ancients kings is a great investment until T6 content or S3 arena.
For the rage starvation, you might have to take a faster offhand, since your low hit will come down on you from time to time. 2,6 speed used with hs and a sudden miss streak can interrupt every rotation.
I use 2,7 speed weapons on trash for bigger ww's but on bosses I started to use the dagger of vasjh again because the spreadsheets tells me that it increases my dmg (expertise does work out it seems). I can't even say if vashj does increase my dps, but it provides a steady rage flow at least. And I find myself almost never rage starved, by a miscalculated hs.
Last edited by DKP-Borgar : 03/05/08 at 5:55 PM.
Excellent, much appreciated. I was under the impression that the general 9% special cap was good and then not worry about hit unless it comes packaged with gear. With some marginal time invested, I can upgrade my BP of Kings to the second tier and likely the third within a few weeks time.
As for weapons, I've noticed the streaks can be killer both ways. Streaks of incredible crits and rage, streaks of nothing towards the end of a rampage duration that essentially force me to start my rotation from scratch again. But at the moment, my options are fairly limited. The 'quickest' offhand I have at the moment is probably the Emerald Ripper I have sitting in my bank. Hopefully I'll get a lucky drop with something that I can use a bit more effectively. I'm also hoping that if I find a sword or mace to use with my Heartless(not ideal for a fury warrior, I'm sure), the 10 extra expertise might help a bit with my rage generation.
For legs, we should have Solarian on farm in short order(downed her on our second attempt and the difficulty seemed fairly minimal) and I'm hoping to get those, though I dislike 'relying' on a possible drop and I've been putting some serious consideration into forking over badges for the current DPS plate legs as they have a ton of hit at the expense of a ton of crit, likely.
In other news, I've already started farming for the wrap, so I suppose I'll hold off on Dory's for the time being.
As for weapons, I've noticed the streaks can be killer both ways. Streaks of incredible crits and rage, streaks of nothing towards the end of a rampage duration that essentially force me to start my rotation from scratch again. But at the moment, my options are fairly limited. The 'quickest' offhand I have at the moment is probably the Emerald Ripper I have sitting in my bank. Hopefully I'll get a lucky drop with something that I can use a bit more effectively. I'm also hoping that if I find a sword or mace to use with my Heartless(not ideal for a fury warrior, I'm sure), the 10 extra expertise might help a bit with my rage generation.
For legs, we should have Solarian on farm in short order(downed her on our second attempt and the difficulty seemed fairly minimal) and I'm hoping to get those, though I dislike 'relying' on a possible drop and I've been putting some serious consideration into forking over badges for the current DPS plate legs as they have a ton of hit at the expense of a ton of crit, likely.
In other news, I've already started farming for the wrap, so I suppose I'll hold off on Dory's for the time being.
|
Originally Posted by Nihilistic Requiem
I dislike 'relying' on a possible drop
|
I should have phrased that a bit better than, my mistake. I dislike relying on a drop to upgrade a piece of gear, when I know I can get an upgrade through farming mats for a crafted epic that I'm guaranteed for in the meantime. Naturally, there's times where that isn't possible, but when it is, I like to do everything I can within my power first as well.
If you want garauntees, join an arena team and get the S3 arena items. Either buy points or wait 3-4 weeks for enough points for S3 legs or chestpiece. Honestly, that is the fastest way to get significant garaunteed upgrades to your gear. You could PvP, Arena, farm, and get badges at the same time to get gear from more sources so you can gear up faster.
|
Originally Posted by Nihilistic Requiem
Excellent, much appreciated. I was under the impression that the general 9% special cap was good and then not worry about hit unless it comes packaged with gear.
|
Can anyone break down haste vs. armor penetration for a 17/44/0 warrior? first blizz added a bunch of plate w/armor penetration, now w/2.4 they are adding badge gear w/haste (which imo is completely garbage gear btw, and like the original badge plate dps gear, utterly worthless) and some of the new plate instance drops are haste related as well, although there is armor pen gear as well (really, really, hawt armor pen gear actually). I guess what i'm asking is, can you stack enough haste rating w/Dragonstrike, and gear to make it viable vs. say 600 armor penetration (which will of course rise to over 700 possible passive armor pen. w/2.4)
Depends on a few things, armor pen isnt a linear gain, so how much you have already determines its worth. If your guild uses Curse of Recklessness, and how close you are to the armor pen cap. I dont know how much armor the new bosses have.
I think we had this dicussion on haste earlier, personally I dont think its that great and is pretty much the new agility on dps plate. Ive never looked at it with things like dragonstrike though.
I think we had this dicussion on haste earlier, personally I dont think its that great and is pretty much the new agility on dps plate. Ive never looked at it with things like dragonstrike though.
Bosses all have the same armor from SSC to BT (there's are 2-3 different levels, but it doesn't increases with higher instances). If that were the case mele would constantly get nerfed with new instances.
Also it isnt valid to compare haste to agi. Haste is really nothing more than +hit except it doesnt actually suck as much after you have a nice hit rating/hit cap for specials.
Also it isnt valid to compare haste to agi. Haste is really nothing more than +hit except it doesnt actually suck as much after you have a nice hit rating/hit cap for specials.
|
Originally Posted by Richard Gozinya
Can anyone break down haste vs. armor penetration for a 17/44/0 warrior? first blizz added a bunch of plate w/armor penetration, now w/2.4 they are adding badge gear w/haste (which imo is completely garbage gear btw, and like the original badge plate dps gear, utterly worthless) and some of the new plate instance drops are haste related as well, although there is armor pen gear as well (really, really, hawt armor pen gear actually). I guess what i'm asking is, can you stack enough haste rating w/Dragonstrike, and gear to make it viable vs. say 600 armor penetration (which will of course rise to over 700 possible passive armor pen. w/2.4)
|
Most people know you don't gem for hit unless your under nine percent. A similar rule can be brought in for haste, were you should just take it as an added stat, don't particularly go for items with lots of haste on them. Just go for best in slot and if it does have some haste, then fine, its nice.
Armour pen is again similar, if you want a rought value aim for a 1000 without any procs and an executioner will take you near the cap for most bosses.
Sorry to crap on this thread with a probably worthless post, but is there a stat point where Fury DPS > MS DPS if you're using mostly PvP/S1/S2 gear for MS? I have been picking up some Fury gear here and there in Kara/ZA and just wondering where my stats should be at to overtake my MS DPS.
Thanks!
Thanks!
|
Originally Posted by shed
Also it isnt valid to compare haste to agi. Haste is really nothing more than +hit except it doesnt actually suck as much after you have a nice hit rating/hit cap for specials.
|
|
Originally Posted by Overcome
Sorry to crap on this thread with a probably worthless post, but is there a stat point where Fury DPS > MS DPS if you're using mostly PvP/S1/S2 gear for MS? I have been picking up some Fury gear here and there in Kara/ZA and just wondering where my stats should be at to overtake my MS DPS.
Thanks! |
|
Originally Posted by Bevz
Armour pen is again similar, if you want a rought value aim for a 1000 without any procs and an executioner will take you near the cap for most bosses.
|
I got a little question on trinket usuage.
I used to have my trinket bound into Mortal Strike/Bloodthirst (depending on spec).
A while back I "unmacro'd" the trinket and keybound it so I could pop it during heroism.
I do notice that this has effected the uptime of the AP buff, and I don't seem to really notice any big difference in dps between the 2 ways of popping the trinket.
So I'm wondering what other people would suggest, I like the big crits/hits during hero with all CD's up, but then I also feel I'm not fully benefitting from the trinket with the way I'm using it now.
I used to have my trinket bound into Mortal Strike/Bloodthirst (depending on spec).
A while back I "unmacro'd" the trinket and keybound it so I could pop it during heroism.
I do notice that this has effected the uptime of the AP buff, and I don't seem to really notice any big difference in dps between the 2 ways of popping the trinket.
So I'm wondering what other people would suggest, I like the big crits/hits during hero with all CD's up, but then I also feel I'm not fully benefitting from the trinket with the way I'm using it now.
It depends on how you use the trinkets and other cooldowns of course. If you use them only during Heroism then you won't really see a dps increase. The key to using the cooldowns is really to use them as often as possible, and try and make it so that they come off cooldown again when your shaman pops Heroism. This obviously isn't very easy to do, but you can generally coordinate with your shaman as to when he's going to pop Heroism so you have an idea of how often/when you can use your cooldowns.
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
haste and fast OH
I'll post it here instead of the spreadsheet or the compendium thread since it's not directly related to either.
There's a lot of talk about how haste isn't the best stat for fury and that a slow weapon for OH is always better than a fast one, given equal stats. My guild just started in MH/BT, so I tested out all the weapons available in Grim's spreadsheet. My current pair is [Wicked Edge of the Planes] and [Rising Tide]. I swapped in the following weapons, retaining the same enchants on MH (executioner + windfury) and OH (mongoose + adamantite):
What surprises me most is I get the best upgrade pairing either rising tide or wicked edge with swiftsteel bludgeon. I can understand why the syphon is ranked lowly, since the proc is probably not modelled. But I'm confused about the blade of infamy. It's got AP and agility (which equates to slightly less than 1% crit). While on the other hand, the swiftsteel bludgeon has less AP and no crit, but haste and hit.
So is the spreadsheet blatantly wrong here? Or that the wisdom of hit and haste < crit and AP is at fault?
Edit: Further fiddling shows that the best dps comes from any coupling with the swiftsteel bludgeon ....
There's a lot of talk about how haste isn't the best stat for fury and that a slow weapon for OH is always better than a fast one, given equal stats. My guild just started in MH/BT, so I tested out all the weapons available in Grim's spreadsheet. My current pair is [Wicked Edge of the Planes] and [Rising Tide]. I swapped in the following weapons, retaining the same enchants on MH (executioner + windfury) and OH (mongoose + adamantite):
What surprises me most is I get the best upgrade pairing either rising tide or wicked edge with swiftsteel bludgeon. I can understand why the syphon is ranked lowly, since the proc is probably not modelled. But I'm confused about the blade of infamy. It's got AP and agility (which equates to slightly less than 1% crit). While on the other hand, the swiftsteel bludgeon has less AP and no crit, but haste and hit.
So is the spreadsheet blatantly wrong here? Or that the wisdom of hit and haste < crit and AP is at fault?
Edit: Further fiddling shows that the best dps comes from any coupling with the swiftsteel bludgeon ....
Last edited by LittleHamster : 03/12/08 at 6:43 AM.
[Swiftsteel Bludgeon] is a really good OH for sub 20% phases because of the fast and steady rage generation that is needed to execute every GCD. That said, Grim's sheet gives you 3 DPS numbers: for white damage, yellow damage and execute damage (they are just on the left of the total DPS box). Now what is happening is that the Swiftsteel gives you such a big boost on execute damage that it completely overshadows the higher white/yellow dmg the other weapon combos would give you. It does, however, not consider the fact that you can change weapons yourself just before the execute stage so I suggest you find a weapon combo that is best for the >20% phases (for me it's slow/slow) then find a weapon combo that's good for <20% like slow/swiftsteel and swap the weapons in manually for best overall DPS.
|
Originally Posted by shed
I think 1300 is a better value to shoot for.
|
but almost reachable ;/
coif of the jungle stalker - 140 ArP
Choker of serrated blades - 175 ArP
Pauldrons of gruesome fate - 154 ArP
Dory's Embrace - 112 ArP
shadowtooth trollskin cuirass - 210 ArP
Eternium Rage shackles - 150 ArP
Grips of Silent justice - 175 ArP
chain of unleashed rage - 154 ArP
Leggins of divine retribution - 350 ArP
shadowhunters treads - 105 Arp
signet of primal wrath - 126 Arp
stormrage signet ring - 126 Arp
ancient amani longbow - 126 Arp
boundless agony - 210 Arp
prowlers strikeblade - 140 Arp
(or cataclysms edge for arms)
= 2453 ArP
coif of the jungle stalker - 140 ArP
Choker of serrated blades - 175 ArP
Pauldrons of gruesome fate - 154 ArP
Dory's Embrace - 112 ArP
shadowtooth trollskin cuirass - 210 ArP
Eternium Rage shackles - 150 ArP
Grips of Silent justice - 175 ArP
chain of unleashed rage - 154 ArP
Leggins of divine retribution - 350 ArP
shadowhunters treads - 105 Arp
signet of primal wrath - 126 Arp
stormrage signet ring - 126 Arp
ancient amani longbow - 126 Arp
boundless agony - 210 Arp
prowlers strikeblade - 140 Arp
(or cataclysms edge for arms)
= 2453 ArP
That is with some gear pieces no DPS Warrior would touch though (if he had better obviously). 2 daggers and some other subpar pieces. ArP is nice and all but that doesn't mean you should stack it at the cost of other good stats.
It may not prove to be a realistic assessment, but it's important to know just to what extent it can be stacked. Again, obviously not for practical usage.
|
Originally Posted by LittleHamster
So is the spreadsheet blatantly wrong here? Or that the wisdom of hit and haste < crit and AP is at fault? Edit: Further fiddling shows that the best dps comes from any coupling with the swiftsteel bludgeon .... |
Wisdom is at fault.
Haste = best stat for BT geared fury warrior. Imo for MS too, but thats personal preference with rotation. Haste only has bad connotation, because its found on HORRIBLY itemized items. Haste as stat = amazing, Haste items from BT = crap.
Bludgeon is one of the exceptions - haste item with good item budgeting.
Yes, been using bludgeons for several months, they are awesome. They provide nice rage gen and great stats for the sacrifice of a small amount of WW dmg. I constantly have people come up and tell me to lrn2play though. I explained for a while that they were great, but eventually it just got tiresome.
|
Originally Posted by Shha
Wisdom is at fault.
Haste = best stat for BT geared fury warrior. |
|
Originally Posted by Moogul
You've been pitching this for ages, with no solid evidence. I'm not saying 'LOL YOU'RE WRONG', but if you're going to make claims like this, please show us the theory/evidence.
|
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
|
Originally Posted by Hidden
You're doing the same thing, just that you're saying the opposite without any accurate maths supporting you. We, however, have the spreadsheet, the only accurate tool for stat values, speaking for us.
|
Moogul did do some simple maths in this thread DPS Warrior Compendium, if you want to have a read. Think it was Voxx also who brought up the point of even though haste increases attack speed and thus the number of attacks in a given time, those attacks are still subject to miss, dodge, glancing etc.
Also the reason a swiftsteel bludgeon is so good is because all of its stats are dps orientated. If it had 20 stam on it you could probably drop its other stats by a quarter. If you took the stamina from the Kaz'rogal belt and replaced it with hit im pretty sure everyone would have one.
Just because one item with haste on it is good, doesnt make the stat any better. Although even after writing that I do get the gut feeling that haste is pretty decent for a fury warrior, but not ms.
Last edited by Bevz : 03/12/08 at 10:22 PM.
| I do get the gut feeling that haste is pretty decent for a fury warrior, but not ms |
|
Originally Posted by Graul
Haste is an exceptional stat for Arms. It's also simply another option. You can chose to go the same ArP/AP/Crit route or substitute either of those for haste and end up having a good enough speed to where you won't even have to Slam anymore.
|
Looking for a little macro help here, today I picked up a second Swiftsteel Bludgeon and decided to try using the two of them for execute spaming, however i can't seem to get the macro to work correctly. It's only equiping a Bludgeon in my main hand, leaving my offhand empty. Heres what i'm using for the macro:
/equipslot 16 Swiftsteel Bludgeon
/equipslot 17 Swiftsteel Bludgeon
I'm thinking the issue may be due both of them being the same item, but if any of you know a workaround i'd apreciate it.
/equipslot 16 Swiftsteel Bludgeon
/equipslot 17 Swiftsteel Bludgeon
I'm thinking the issue may be due both of them being the same item, but if any of you know a workaround i'd apreciate it.
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
Try offhanding, then mainhanding? This is a shot in the dark.
Edit: Come to think of it, there is a way to place a specific bag slot into your MH and a specific bag slot into your OH. If the locations ever changed it would error. I'm not sure what the command is, but remember seeing something about it.
Edit: Come to think of it, there is a way to place a specific bag slot into your MH and a specific bag slot into your OH. If the locations ever changed it would error. I'm not sure what the command is, but remember seeing something about it.
Last edited by Mjollnir : 03/13/08 at 2:51 AM.
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
|
Originally Posted by Graul
Haste is an exceptional stat for Arms. It's also simply another option. You can chose to go the same ArP/AP/Crit route or substitute either of those for haste and end up having a good enough speed to where you won't even have to Slam anymore.
|
Haste affects less than 40% of my damage, and it only affects that damage 2.5 seconds out of every 3. It's only 1/3 effective of it's true potential if I never used an instant attack. It also adds ZERO rage, yes, that's right ZERO. Rage is normalized over swing speed, so attacking quicker does not give me more rage. Haste is not something Arms should ever be trying to get. It's neat if the item already as a ton of str, crit and armor pen, and you're hit capped.
And simple math proves that slamming is always more damage than not slamming. If your swing is 0.5s, you can either swing every 0.5 seconds 3 times in 1.5s for 3x swing damage, or swing/swing/slam for 3x swing + 140. If WW and MS are on cooldown, then it is always, always, always better to still use slam unless you suck with the timing.
You're sowing so much misinformation it's ridiculous. Going by the feel of fights and what you "think" is no substitute for the simple math that has been proven over and over and over again.
Last edited by Grayson Carlyle : 03/13/08 at 4:42 AM.
|
Originally Posted by Axl_Stukov
Looking for a little macro help here, today I picked up a second Swiftsteel Bludgeon and decided to try using the two of them for execute spaming, however i can't seem to get the macro to work correctly. It's only equiping a Bludgeon in my main hand, leaving my offhand empty. Heres what i'm using for the macro:
/equipslot 16 Swiftsteel Bludgeon /equipslot 17 Swiftsteel Bludgeon I'm thinking the issue may be due both of them being the same item, but if any of you know a workaround i'd apreciate it. |
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
|
Originally Posted by Grayson Carlyle
Haste is not exceptional for Arms, at all. It's not even good, it's just okay, and the spreadsheet will tell you this.
Haste affects less than 40% of my damage, and it only affects that damage 2.5 seconds out of every 3. It's only 1/3 effective of it's true potential if I never used an instant attack. It also adds ZERO rage, yes, that's right ZERO. Rage is normalized over swing speed, so attacking quicker does not give me more rage. Haste is not something Arms should ever be trying to get. It's neat if the item already as a ton of str, crit and armor pen, and you're hit capped. And simple math proves that slamming is always more damage than not slamming. If your swing is 0.5s, you can either swing every 0.5 seconds 3 times in 1.5s for 3x swing damage, or swing/swing/slam for 3x swing + 140. If WW and MS are on cooldown, then it is always, always, always better to still use slam unless you suck with the timing. You're sowing so much misinformation it's ridiculous. Going by the feel of fights and what you "think" is no substitute for the simple math that has been proven over and over and over again. |
*edit - Plugging in my current gear shows haste to be below crit and barely below str. Adding in more pieces that have ArP increases the value of ArP, but at the same time increases the value of haste compared to crit and str. Obviously, according to that, haste isn't nearly as good as what it was before the nerf, but it's also clear by that that it was a great stat prior. So I stand corrected on it being better than "ok" for a 2h build anymore.
| And simple math proves that slamming is always more damage than not slamming. |
Last edited by Graul : 03/13/08 at 6:22 AM.
|
Originally Posted by Grayson Carlyle
Haste is not exceptional for Arms, at all. It's not even good, it's just okay, and the spreadsheet will tell you this.
Haste affects less than 40% of my damage, and it only affects that damage 2.5 seconds out of every 3. It's only 1/3 effective of it's true potential if I never used an instant attack. It also adds ZERO rage, yes, that's right ZERO. Rage is normalized over swing speed, so attacking quicker does not give me more rage. Haste is not something Arms should ever be trying to get. It's neat if the item already as a ton of str, crit and armor pen, and you're hit capped. And simple math proves that slamming is always more damage than not slamming. If your swing is 0.5s, you can either swing every 0.5 seconds 3 times in 1.5s for 3x swing damage, or swing/swing/slam for 3x swing + 140. If WW and MS are on cooldown, then it is always, always, always better to still use slam unless you suck with the timing. You're sowing so much misinformation it's ridiculous. Going by the feel of fights and what you "think" is no substitute for the simple math that has been proven over and over and over again. |
I don't have time to look into it right now, but in his defense, it did seem that last time I was wrenching with my arms-configured spreadsheet the SEP for haste was very high, almost as high as ArP or Exp. So it's no unreasonable to think Graul saw the same and based his conclusions on that.
|
Originally Posted by Hidden
You're doing the same thing, just that you're saying the opposite without any accurate maths supporting you. We, however, have the spreadsheet, the only accurate tool for stat values, speaking for us.
|
Some of this might be down to gearing - I personally run with very little hit (I skim as close to 9% as possible without dropping below), which means my white damage is a smaller percentage of my overall damage than for a player with more +hit. I also don't raid with a Feral druid in my group, which further increases the value of crit for me.
I will do some checking later with the latest version of the spreadsheet and see what it says. Still, the spreadsheet should be based on the exact same maths that I have demonstrated which strongly supports the idea of haste being sub-optimal compared to crit.
Edit: Remember, as people have pointed out - haste does *not* increase rage generation the way you would expect, due to normalization (though I think it does increase it slightly), and does *not* increase the number of procs you get from PPM effects.
| haste does *not* increase rage generation the way you would expect, due to normalization (though I think it does increase it slightly), and does *not* increase the number of procs you get from PPM effects. |
|
Originally Posted by Graul
Does that include Sword Spec, which I thought was a 5% chance per hit and not an actual PPM, or does it take speed into account as well?
|
Conversely, you won't see more Mace Spec procs with Haste (ok, that's not terribly relevant for PvE).
You'll also see more Windfury Procs, for example, but you won't see more DST or MotB procs.
UBW being changed from a flat % to a ppm based on weapon speed back in classic worth throwing in there? Done.
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
|
Originally Posted by Grayson Carlyle
Haste is not exceptional for Arms, at all. It's not even good, it's just okay, and the spreadsheet will tell you this.
Haste affects less than 40% of my damage, and it only affects that damage 2.5 seconds out of every 3. It's only 1/3 effective of it's true potential if I never used an instant attack. It also adds ZERO rage, yes, that's right ZERO. Rage is normalized over swing speed, so attacking quicker does not give me more rage. Haste is not something Arms should ever be trying to get. It's neat if the item already as a ton of str, crit and armor pen, and you're hit capped. |
Using the example of 30% crit, 1000 damage per hit, 2000 damage per crit, rounding down
Using a 3.5s swing time R[hit]=19 R[crit]=39
Using a 2.5s swing time R[hit]=18 R[crit]=36
Using the time peroid where both swing times intersect (875s)
Using a 3.5s swing time 175 hits 75 crits for total net rage of 6,250 over 875 seconds or 7.14 rage/second
Using a 2.5s swing time 245 hits 105 crits for total net rage of 8,190 over 875 seconds or 9.36 rage/second
On a slam rotation your rage generated will decrease as you increase haste as white swings are fixed but experience has shown me that as long as you are not swapping haste for another stat like crit the effect is negligible.
With haste being prevelant on a number of sunwell items and the armor penetration cap in sight I expect to see arms warriors close to a 2.5 second swing time without bloodlust / heroism. Factoring in wind fury procs and with further real raid testing you may see more dps from stopping slamming during bloodlust / heroism at those speeds.
Last edited by Cavein : 03/13/08 at 8:19 AM. Reason: Clarity
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
I got my equip macro working (got 2 Bludgeons too) but i'm at work right now, will post it when getting home. I think it was equipping offhand before mnainhand that got it working...
edit: @ rage generation with haste:
formula for rage is
R=(15*dmg)/4*274.7 + (speed*factor)/2
factor = 3.5 for MH normal, 7 MHcrit, 1.75 OH normal, 3.5 OH crit
if we just look at normal white hits MH at lets say 800dmg per hit @2.6 speed:
R=(15*500)/1098,8 + (2.6*3.5)/2 = 6.8256 + 4.55 = 11.3756 rage per hit
if we speed swings up to 2.5 speed (4%haste):
R=(15*500)/1098,8 + (2.5*3.5)/2 = 6.8256 + 4.375 = 11.2006 rage per hit
that means without haste we get in one minute
60/2.6*11.3756 = 262.5138 rage
with 4% haste
60/2.5*11.2006 rage = 268.8144 rage
so we get 2.4% more rage out of 4% haste.
You can see that more haste = more rage although ragegen is normalized one gets more rage if hasted.
edit: @ rage generation with haste:
formula for rage is
R=(15*dmg)/4*274.7 + (speed*factor)/2
factor = 3.5 for MH normal, 7 MHcrit, 1.75 OH normal, 3.5 OH crit
if we just look at normal white hits MH at lets say 800dmg per hit @2.6 speed:
R=(15*500)/1098,8 + (2.6*3.5)/2 = 6.8256 + 4.55 = 11.3756 rage per hit
if we speed swings up to 2.5 speed (4%haste):
R=(15*500)/1098,8 + (2.5*3.5)/2 = 6.8256 + 4.375 = 11.2006 rage per hit
that means without haste we get in one minute
60/2.6*11.3756 = 262.5138 rage
with 4% haste
60/2.5*11.2006 rage = 268.8144 rage
so we get 2.4% more rage out of 4% haste.
You can see that more haste = more rage although ragegen is normalized one gets more rage if hasted.
Last edited by Khurzog : 03/13/08 at 10:09 AM.
|
Originally Posted by Moogul
I have, on at least two occasions, posted the maths behind why I think Haste is bad - you should be able to find it quite easily. All you or Shha have said is 'check the spreadsheet', and the last time I checked (admittedly a couple of weeks ago), haste did not come out above crit.
Some of this might be down to gearing - I personally run with very little hit (I skim as close to 9% as possible without dropping below), which means my white damage is a smaller percentage of my overall damage than for a player with more +hit. I also don't raid with a Feral druid in my group, which further increases the value of crit for me. I will do some checking later with the latest version of the spreadsheet and see what it says. Still, the spreadsheet should be based on the exact same maths that I have demonstrated which strongly supports the idea of haste being sub-optimal compared to crit. Edit: Remember, as people have pointed out - haste does *not* increase rage generation the way you would expect, due to normalization (though I think it does increase it slightly), and does *not* increase the number of procs you get from PPM effects. |
|
Originally Posted by Hidden
Your "maths" wasn't accurate at all. Also, we're talking about endgame geared Warriors as a T4 Warrior won't be seeing any of the Sunwell Haste gear, being the first Haste gear that's itemized properly, anytime soon. Haste is one of the best scaling stats out there for a Warrior, of course it's bad if your gear is.
|
I'm not infallible. I might have made a mistake in my maths, but if so, POINT IT OUT. Go find my original post, quote it, and point out which bits are wrong, and WHY. Then I'll talk.
Sorry if this comes off harshly, but I'm tired of people who make unfounded (but not necessarily incorrect) statements.
I made a pretty big mistake last night, posting while frustrated with wiping. I totally ignored the fact that haste will decrease the period length of the slam cycle. Since 2H isn't limited by cooldowns like DW is, haste will increase the DPS of WW, MS and Slam... So it's better than I made it out to be, for sure. I was approaching it the wrong way. Should just stick with my own advice and use the spreadsheet. My apologies.
but almost reachable ;/
coif of the jungle stalker - 140 ArP
Choker of serrated blades - 175 ArP
Pauldrons of gruesome fate - 154 ArP
Dory's Embrace - 112 ArP
shadowtooth trollskin cuirass - 210 ArP
Eternium Rage shackles - 150 ArP
Grips of Silent justice - 175 ArP
chain of unleashed rage - 154 ArP
Leggins of divine retribution - 350 ArP
shadowhunters treads - 105 Arp
signet of primal wrath - 126 Arp
stormrage signet ring - 126 Arp
ancient amani longbow - 126 Arp
boundless agony - 210 Arp
prowlers strikeblade - 140 Arp
(or cataclysms edge for arms)
= 2453 ArP
coif of the jungle stalker - 140 ArP
Choker of serrated blades - 175 ArP
Pauldrons of gruesome fate - 154 ArP
Dory's Embrace - 112 ArP
shadowtooth trollskin cuirass - 210 ArP
Eternium Rage shackles - 150 ArP
Grips of Silent justice - 175 ArP
chain of unleashed rage - 154 ArP
Leggins of divine retribution - 350 ArP
shadowhunters treads - 105 Arp
signet of primal wrath - 126 Arp
stormrage signet ring - 126 Arp
ancient amani longbow - 126 Arp
boundless agony - 210 Arp
prowlers strikeblade - 140 Arp
(or cataclysms edge for arms)
= 2453 ArP
That is with some gear pieces no DPS Warrior would touch though (if he had better obviously). 2 daggers and some other subpar pieces. ArP is nice and all but that doesn't mean you should stack it at the cost of other good stats.
It may not prove to be a realistic assessment, but it's important to know just to what extent it can be stacked. Again, obviously not for practical usage.
|
Originally Posted by LittleHamster
So is the spreadsheet blatantly wrong here? Or that the wisdom of hit and haste < crit and AP is at fault? Edit: Further fiddling shows that the best dps comes from any coupling with the swiftsteel bludgeon .... |
Wisdom is at fault.
Haste = best stat for BT geared fury warrior. Imo for MS too, but thats personal preference with rotation. Haste only has bad connotation, because its found on HORRIBLY itemized items. Haste as stat = amazing, Haste items from BT = crap.
Bludgeon is one of the exceptions - haste item with good item budgeting.
Yes, been using bludgeons for several months, they are awesome. They provide nice rage gen and great stats for the sacrifice of a small amount of WW dmg. I constantly have people come up and tell me to lrn2play though. I explained for a while that they were great, but eventually it just got tiresome.
|
Originally Posted by Shha
Wisdom is at fault.
Haste = best stat for BT geared fury warrior. |
|
Originally Posted by Moogul
You've been pitching this for ages, with no solid evidence. I'm not saying 'LOL YOU'RE WRONG', but if you're going to make claims like this, please show us the theory/evidence.
|
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
|
Originally Posted by Hidden
You're doing the same thing, just that you're saying the opposite without any accurate maths supporting you. We, however, have the spreadsheet, the only accurate tool for stat values, speaking for us.
|
Moogul did do some simple maths in this thread DPS Warrior Compendium, if you want to have a read. Think it was Voxx also who brought up the point of even though haste increases attack speed and thus the number of attacks in a given time, those attacks are still subject to miss, dodge, glancing etc.
Also the reason a swiftsteel bludgeon is so good is because all of its stats are dps orientated. If it had 20 stam on it you could probably drop its other stats by a quarter. If you took the stamina from the Kaz'rogal belt and replaced it with hit im pretty sure everyone would have one.
Just because one item with haste on it is good, doesnt make the stat any better. Although even after writing that I do get the gut feeling that haste is pretty decent for a fury warrior, but not ms.
Last edited by Bevz : 03/12/08 at 10:22 PM.
| I do get the gut feeling that haste is pretty decent for a fury warrior, but not ms |
|
Originally Posted by Graul
Haste is an exceptional stat for Arms. It's also simply another option. You can chose to go the same ArP/AP/Crit route or substitute either of those for haste and end up having a good enough speed to where you won't even have to Slam anymore.
|
Looking for a little macro help here, today I picked up a second Swiftsteel Bludgeon and decided to try using the two of them for execute spaming, however i can't seem to get the macro to work correctly. It's only equiping a Bludgeon in my main hand, leaving my offhand empty. Heres what i'm using for the macro:
/equipslot 16 Swiftsteel Bludgeon
/equipslot 17 Swiftsteel Bludgeon
I'm thinking the issue may be due both of them being the same item, but if any of you know a workaround i'd apreciate it.
/equipslot 16 Swiftsteel Bludgeon
/equipslot 17 Swiftsteel Bludgeon
I'm thinking the issue may be due both of them being the same item, but if any of you know a workaround i'd apreciate it.
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
Try offhanding, then mainhanding? This is a shot in the dark.
Edit: Come to think of it, there is a way to place a specific bag slot into your MH and a specific bag slot into your OH. If the locations ever changed it would error. I'm not sure what the command is, but remember seeing something about it.
Edit: Come to think of it, there is a way to place a specific bag slot into your MH and a specific bag slot into your OH. If the locations ever changed it would error. I'm not sure what the command is, but remember seeing something about it.
Last edited by Mjollnir : 03/13/08 at 2:51 AM.
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
|
Originally Posted by Graul
Haste is an exceptional stat for Arms. It's also simply another option. You can chose to go the same ArP/AP/Crit route or substitute either of those for haste and end up having a good enough speed to where you won't even have to Slam anymore.
|
Haste affects less than 40% of my damage, and it only affects that damage 2.5 seconds out of every 3. It's only 1/3 effective of it's true potential if I never used an instant attack. It also adds ZERO rage, yes, that's right ZERO. Rage is normalized over swing speed, so attacking quicker does not give me more rage. Haste is not something Arms should ever be trying to get. It's neat if the item already as a ton of str, crit and armor pen, and you're hit capped.
And simple math proves that slamming is always more damage than not slamming. If your swing is 0.5s, you can either swing every 0.5 seconds 3 times in 1.5s for 3x swing damage, or swing/swing/slam for 3x swing + 140. If WW and MS are on cooldown, then it is always, always, always better to still use slam unless you suck with the timing.
You're sowing so much misinformation it's ridiculous. Going by the feel of fights and what you "think" is no substitute for the simple math that has been proven over and over and over again.
Last edited by Grayson Carlyle : 03/13/08 at 4:42 AM.
|
Originally Posted by Axl_Stukov
Looking for a little macro help here, today I picked up a second Swiftsteel Bludgeon and decided to try using the two of them for execute spaming, however i can't seem to get the macro to work correctly. It's only equiping a Bludgeon in my main hand, leaving my offhand empty. Heres what i'm using for the macro:
/equipslot 16 Swiftsteel Bludgeon /equipslot 17 Swiftsteel Bludgeon I'm thinking the issue may be due both of them being the same item, but if any of you know a workaround i'd apreciate it. |
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
|
Originally Posted by Grayson Carlyle
Haste is not exceptional for Arms, at all. It's not even good, it's just okay, and the spreadsheet will tell you this.
Haste affects less than 40% of my damage, and it only affects that damage 2.5 seconds out of every 3. It's only 1/3 effective of it's true potential if I never used an instant attack. It also adds ZERO rage, yes, that's right ZERO. Rage is normalized over swing speed, so attacking quicker does not give me more rage. Haste is not something Arms should ever be trying to get. It's neat if the item already as a ton of str, crit and armor pen, and you're hit capped. And simple math proves that slamming is always more damage than not slamming. If your swing is 0.5s, you can either swing every 0.5 seconds 3 times in 1.5s for 3x swing damage, or swing/swing/slam for 3x swing + 140. If WW and MS are on cooldown, then it is always, always, always better to still use slam unless you suck with the timing. You're sowing so much misinformation it's ridiculous. Going by the feel of fights and what you "think" is no substitute for the simple math that has been proven over and over and over again. |
*edit - Plugging in my current gear shows haste to be below crit and barely below str. Adding in more pieces that have ArP increases the value of ArP, but at the same time increases the value of haste compared to crit and str. Obviously, according to that, haste isn't nearly as good as what it was before the nerf, but it's also clear by that that it was a great stat prior. So I stand corrected on it being better than "ok" for a 2h build anymore.
| And simple math proves that slamming is always more damage than not slamming. |
Last edited by Graul : 03/13/08 at 6:22 AM.
|
Originally Posted by Grayson Carlyle
Haste is not exceptional for Arms, at all. It's not even good, it's just okay, and the spreadsheet will tell you this.
Haste affects less than 40% of my damage, and it only affects that damage 2.5 seconds out of every 3. It's only 1/3 effective of it's true potential if I never used an instant attack. It also adds ZERO rage, yes, that's right ZERO. Rage is normalized over swing speed, so attacking quicker does not give me more rage. Haste is not something Arms should ever be trying to get. It's neat if the item already as a ton of str, crit and armor pen, and you're hit capped. And simple math proves that slamming is always more damage than not slamming. If your swing is 0.5s, you can either swing every 0.5 seconds 3 times in 1.5s for 3x swing damage, or swing/swing/slam for 3x swing + 140. If WW and MS are on cooldown, then it is always, always, always better to still use slam unless you suck with the timing. You're sowing so much misinformation it's ridiculous. Going by the feel of fights and what you "think" is no substitute for the simple math that has been proven over and over and over again. |
I don't have time to look into it right now, but in his defense, it did seem that last time I was wrenching with my arms-configured spreadsheet the SEP for haste was very high, almost as high as ArP or Exp. So it's no unreasonable to think Graul saw the same and based his conclusions on that.
|
Originally Posted by Hidden
You're doing the same thing, just that you're saying the opposite without any accurate maths supporting you. We, however, have the spreadsheet, the only accurate tool for stat values, speaking for us.
|
Some of this might be down to gearing - I personally run with very little hit (I skim as close to 9% as possible without dropping below), which means my white damage is a smaller percentage of my overall damage than for a player with more +hit. I also don't raid with a Feral druid in my group, which further increases the value of crit for me.
I will do some checking later with the latest version of the spreadsheet and see what it says. Still, the spreadsheet should be based on the exact same maths that I have demonstrated which strongly supports the idea of haste being sub-optimal compared to crit.
Edit: Remember, as people have pointed out - haste does *not* increase rage generation the way you would expect, due to normalization (though I think it does increase it slightly), and does *not* increase the number of procs you get from PPM effects.
| haste does *not* increase rage generation the way you would expect, due to normalization (though I think it does increase it slightly), and does *not* increase the number of procs you get from PPM effects. |
|
Originally Posted by Graul
Does that include Sword Spec, which I thought was a 5% chance per hit and not an actual PPM, or does it take speed into account as well?
|
Conversely, you won't see more Mace Spec procs with Haste (ok, that's not terribly relevant for PvE).
You'll also see more Windfury Procs, for example, but you won't see more DST or MotB procs.
UBW being changed from a flat % to a ppm based on weapon speed back in classic worth throwing in there? Done.
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
|
Originally Posted by Grayson Carlyle
Haste is not exceptional for Arms, at all. It's not even good, it's just okay, and the spreadsheet will tell you this.
Haste affects less than 40% of my damage, and it only affects that damage 2.5 seconds out of every 3. It's only 1/3 effective of it's true potential if I never used an instant attack. It also adds ZERO rage, yes, that's right ZERO. Rage is normalized over swing speed, so attacking quicker does not give me more rage. Haste is not something Arms should ever be trying to get. It's neat if the item already as a ton of str, crit and armor pen, and you're hit capped. |
Using the example of 30% crit, 1000 damage per hit, 2000 damage per crit, rounding down
Using a 3.5s swing time R[hit]=19 R[crit]=39
Using a 2.5s swing time R[hit]=18 R[crit]=36
Using the time peroid where both swing times intersect (875s)
Using a 3.5s swing time 175 hits 75 crits for total net rage of 6,250 over 875 seconds or 7.14 rage/second
Using a 2.5s swing time 245 hits 105 crits for total net rage of 8,190 over 875 seconds or 9.36 rage/second
On a slam rotation your rage generated will decrease as you increase haste as white swings are fixed but experience has shown me that as long as you are not swapping haste for another stat like crit the effect is negligible.
With haste being prevelant on a number of sunwell items and the armor penetration cap in sight I expect to see arms warriors close to a 2.5 second swing time without bloodlust / heroism. Factoring in wind fury procs and with further real raid testing you may see more dps from stopping slamming during bloodlust / heroism at those speeds.
Last edited by Cavein : 03/13/08 at 8:19 AM. Reason: Clarity
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
I got my equip macro working (got 2 Bludgeons too) but i'm at work right now, will post it when getting home. I think it was equipping offhand before mnainhand that got it working...
edit: @ rage generation with haste:
formula for rage is
R=(15*dmg)/4*274.7 + (speed*factor)/2
factor = 3.5 for MH normal, 7 MHcrit, 1.75 OH normal, 3.5 OH crit
if we just look at normal white hits MH at lets say 800dmg per hit @2.6 speed:
R=(15*500)/1098,8 + (2.6*3.5)/2 = 6.8256 + 4.55 = 11.3756 rage per hit
if we speed swings up to 2.5 speed (4%haste):
R=(15*500)/1098,8 + (2.5*3.5)/2 = 6.8256 + 4.375 = 11.2006 rage per hit
that means without haste we get in one minute
60/2.6*11.3756 = 262.5138 rage
with 4% haste
60/2.5*11.2006 rage = 268.8144 rage
so we get 2.4% more rage out of 4% haste.
You can see that more haste = more rage although ragegen is normalized one gets more rage if hasted.
edit: @ rage generation with haste:
formula for rage is
R=(15*dmg)/4*274.7 + (speed*factor)/2
factor = 3.5 for MH normal, 7 MHcrit, 1.75 OH normal, 3.5 OH crit
if we just look at normal white hits MH at lets say 800dmg per hit @2.6 speed:
R=(15*500)/1098,8 + (2.6*3.5)/2 = 6.8256 + 4.55 = 11.3756 rage per hit
if we speed swings up to 2.5 speed (4%haste):
R=(15*500)/1098,8 + (2.5*3.5)/2 = 6.8256 + 4.375 = 11.2006 rage per hit
that means without haste we get in one minute
60/2.6*11.3756 = 262.5138 rage
with 4% haste
60/2.5*11.2006 rage = 268.8144 rage
so we get 2.4% more rage out of 4% haste.
You can see that more haste = more rage although ragegen is normalized one gets more rage if hasted.
Last edited by Khurzog : 03/13/08 at 10:09 AM.
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Originally Posted by Moogul
I have, on at least two occasions, posted the maths behind why I think Haste is bad - you should be able to find it quite easily. All you or Shha have said is 'check the spreadsheet', and the last time I checked (admittedly a couple of weeks ago), haste did not come out above crit.
Some of this might be down to gearing - I personally run with very little hit (I skim as close to 9% as possible without dropping below), which means my white damage is a smaller percentage of my overall damage than for a player with more +hit. I also don't raid with a Feral druid in my group, which further increases the value of crit for me. I will do some checking later with the latest version of the spreadsheet and see what it says. Still, the spreadsheet should be based on the exact same maths that I have demonstrated which strongly supports the idea of haste being sub-optimal compared to crit. Edit: Remember, as people have pointed out - haste does *not* increase rage generation the way you would expect, due to normalization (though I think it does increase it slightly), and does *not* increase the number of procs you get from PPM effects. |
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Originally Posted by Hidden
Your "maths" wasn't accurate at all. Also, we're talking about endgame geared Warriors as a T4 Warrior won't be seeing any of the Sunwell Haste gear, being the first Haste gear that's itemized properly, anytime soon. Haste is one of the best scaling stats out there for a Warrior, of course it's bad if your gear is.
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I'm not infallible. I might have made a mistake in my maths, but if so, POINT IT OUT. Go find my original post, quote it, and point out which bits are wrong, and WHY. Then I'll talk.
Sorry if this comes off harshly, but I'm tired of people who make unfounded (but not necessarily incorrect) statements.
I made a pretty big mistake last night, posting while frustrated with wiping. I totally ignored the fact that haste will decrease the period length of the slam cycle. Since 2H isn't limited by cooldowns like DW is, haste will increase the DPS of WW, MS and Slam... So it's better than I made it out to be, for sure. I was approaching it the wrong way. Should just stick with my own advice and use the spreadsheet. My apologies.
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Originally Posted by Grayson Carlyle
Haste is not exceptional for Arms, at all. It's not even good, it's just okay, and the spreadsheet will tell you this.
Haste affects less than 40% of my damage, and it only affects that damage 2.5 seconds out of every 3. It's only 1/3 effective of it's true potential if I never used an instant attack. It also adds ZERO rage, yes, that's right ZERO. Rage is normalized over swing speed, so attacking quicker does not give me more rage. Haste is not something Arms should ever be trying to get. It's neat if the item already as a ton of str, crit and armor pen, and you're hit capped. |
RAGE PER SECOND
A fury warrior's rage flow fully controls his second half of his DPS, his yellow attacks. To be able to determine how frequent he can use those abilities, we must arrive at an ideal RPS value.
Luckily, we already have our ideal white DPS value. All we have to do then, is to find a way to plug it into blizzard's rage generation formula, shown below for level 70.
(7.5d / 274.7 + f * WepSpd) / 2
f = 7 for MH crit, 3.5 for MH hit and OH crit, and 1.75 for OH hit
d is the damage dealt, or the damage you apply with armor taken into account. Blizzard wants us to get 1 rage for every 73.25 damage we deal plus a normalized amount based on our weapon speed and rolled hit. For example, if we were to crit with our 2.6 speed main hand for 1000 and hit with our 2.6 speed off hand for 300, we would get 22 and 6 rage.
Since we are working with infinites, we want to know rage over time, but this formula only shows the rage per hit. Luckily you have me to combine all the fancy math for you.
RPS = .01365[WhiteDPS] + 21 / 8 * (1 - [%dodge] - [%misswhite] + [%crit])(1 + [%hasteAVG])(1 + .25[%FlurryUp]) + 1/3[AManage] + 3[UBWrath](MHWepSpd[MHW+HS+WFperSec] + OHWepSpd[OHWperSec]) + (20 + 3[ImpBR]) / 60
So actually, both portions of the rage gen formula, normalized and not normalized, are affected by haste ratnig.
I think he refers to the fact that rage is normalized of swing speed for flurry. Aka if you have flurry up "WepSpd" in your equation shrinks by 25%. However thats only for flurry as far as i know. Stats haste, doesnt affect this value, and my current testing supports it. Im still far from conclusion here, maybe someone else can give his input.
However the previous post is EXTREMELY wrong.
Haste affects 100% of arms warrior damage, unless he is at haste cap. You swing more often. Thats your 40%. You slam more often too though... every slam is following a white swing - more white swings=more rage. You MS every 2 slams , so more haste= more swings=more slams=more MS. Finally you WW every 2 MS, and again it makes it dependable on haste.
To make an example. Lets say your weapon prehaste, flurried speed is 3.0, post haste 2.5 to ease the calculations.
A total hit-slam-ms-hit-slam-ww-hit-slam-ms-hit-slam-gcd rotation, done perfectly takes
(3.0+0.5)x4 = 14 seconds.
Thats 1 swing every 3.5 second
1 slam every 3.5 second
1 MS every 7 seconds
1 WW every 14 seconds.
Yes a normal slam rotation doesnt allow you to use skills on CD.
If we haste the weapon to 2.5 speed then the rotation becomes (2.5+0.5)*4=12 sec long
1 hit every 3 seconds
1 slam every 3 seconds
1 MS every 6 seconds
1 WW every 12 seconds.
Every skill usage increase 3.5/3 times . Its a bit less then raw haste value of 3/2.5 = 20%, actually 20% haste gives arms warrior an 16.(6) % increase in speed of rotation. However it still makes haste affect ALL of the warrior abilities.
So we have 2 options:
a) Haste doesnt affect rage. Rage generation/use will be exactly same - its still same 4 white swings having to support 4 slams 2 ms and 1 ww. The increase haste gives is equal to [WpnSpd/(1+haste%)+0.5]/[WpnSped+0.5]
b) Haste does affect rage. The damage increases the same, but you need more rage to keep your rotation. So unless you had surplus before, you will lack it. In most cases it means, you wont be able to support the rotation fully.
However the previous post is EXTREMELY wrong.
Haste affects 100% of arms warrior damage, unless he is at haste cap. You swing more often. Thats your 40%. You slam more often too though... every slam is following a white swing - more white swings=more rage. You MS every 2 slams , so more haste= more swings=more slams=more MS. Finally you WW every 2 MS, and again it makes it dependable on haste.
To make an example. Lets say your weapon prehaste, flurried speed is 3.0, post haste 2.5 to ease the calculations.
A total hit-slam-ms-hit-slam-ww-hit-slam-ms-hit-slam-gcd rotation, done perfectly takes
(3.0+0.5)x4 = 14 seconds.
Thats 1 swing every 3.5 second
1 slam every 3.5 second
1 MS every 7 seconds
1 WW every 14 seconds.
Yes a normal slam rotation doesnt allow you to use skills on CD.
If we haste the weapon to 2.5 speed then the rotation becomes (2.5+0.5)*4=12 sec long
1 hit every 3 seconds
1 slam every 3 seconds
1 MS every 6 seconds
1 WW every 12 seconds.
Every skill usage increase 3.5/3 times . Its a bit less then raw haste value of 3/2.5 = 20%, actually 20% haste gives arms warrior an 16.(6) % increase in speed of rotation. However it still makes haste affect ALL of the warrior abilities.
So we have 2 options:
a) Haste doesnt affect rage. Rage generation/use will be exactly same - its still same 4 white swings having to support 4 slams 2 ms and 1 ww. The increase haste gives is equal to [WpnSpd/(1+haste%)+0.5]/[WpnSped+0.5]
b) Haste does affect rage. The damage increases the same, but you need more rage to keep your rotation. So unless you had surplus before, you will lack it. In most cases it means, you wont be able to support the rotation fully.
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
Execute - Correct Formula
Hi All,
maybe it's hidden somewhere in the vast archives of these forums, however after hours of searching i give up and bother You all with this question:
How to properly calculate the dmg caused by Execute?
According to the tooltip (lets assume 100 Rage, no Improved Execute, no Focussed Rage, no Blood Frenzy):
Base Damage + ((Rage-15) x 21) = 925 + (85 x 21) = 2.710 maximum normal Execute dmg
Crit with Impale (20% crit bonus) and 3% crit bonus from Relentless Earthstorm:
2.710 x 2,23 = 6.043 maximum crit Execute dmg
However i am most certain we all have seen Execute crits that were considerably higher - I assume that weapon damage must factor in:
(For this Example: Bloodmoon @ 2000 AP with 5/5 2H dmg bonus = 1147 max Weapon Damage)
1147 + 925 + (85*21) = 3.857 max normal Execute Dmg x 2,23 = 8.601 maximum crit Execute dmg
Now that's a figure i deem more realistic? But am i right or what am i missing here?
Any tip/hint/insight much appreciated!
maybe it's hidden somewhere in the vast archives of these forums, however after hours of searching i give up and bother You all with this question:
How to properly calculate the dmg caused by Execute?
According to the tooltip (lets assume 100 Rage, no Improved Execute, no Focussed Rage, no Blood Frenzy):
Base Damage + ((Rage-15) x 21) = 925 + (85 x 21) = 2.710 maximum normal Execute dmg
Crit with Impale (20% crit bonus) and 3% crit bonus from Relentless Earthstorm:
2.710 x 2,23 = 6.043 maximum crit Execute dmg
However i am most certain we all have seen Execute crits that were considerably higher - I assume that weapon damage must factor in:
(For this Example: Bloodmoon @ 2000 AP with 5/5 2H dmg bonus = 1147 max Weapon Damage)
1147 + 925 + (85*21) = 3.857 max normal Execute Dmg x 2,23 = 8.601 maximum crit Execute dmg
Now that's a figure i deem more realistic? But am i right or what am i missing here?
Any tip/hint/insight much appreciated!
Last edited by Jackpott : 03/19/08 at 8:39 PM.
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Originally Posted by Jackpott
Hi All,
maybe it's hidden somewhere in the vast archives of these forums, however after hours of searching i give up and bother You all with this question: How to properly calculate the dmg caused by Execute? According to the tooltip (lets assume 100 Rage, no Improved Execute, no Focussed Rage, no Blood Frenzy): Base Damage + ((Rage-15) x 21) = 925 + (85 x 21) = 2.710 maximum normal Execute dmg Crit with Impale (20% crit bonus) and 3% crit bonus from Relentless Earthstorm: 2.710 x 2,23 = 6.043 maximum crit Execute dmg However i am most certain we all have seen Execute crits that were considerably higher - I assume that weapon damage must factor in: (For this Example: Bloodmoon @ 2000 AP with 5/5 2H dmg bonus = 1147 max Weapon Damage) 1147 + 925 + (85*21) = 3.857 max normal Execute Dmg x 2,23 = 8.601 maximum crit Execute dmg Now that's a figure i deem more realistic? But am i right or what am i missing here? Any tip/hint/insight much appreciated! Cheers Jack |
If you get higher damage than the theoretically allowed, my guess is that you are forgetting buffs that add damage, e.g. Deathwish.
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Originally Posted by Jackpott
Hi All,
maybe it's hidden somewhere in the vast archives of these forums, however after hours of searching i give up and bother You all with this question: How to properly calculate the dmg caused by Execute? According to the tooltip (lets assume 100 Rage, no Improved Execute, no Focussed Rage, no Blood Frenzy): Base Damage + ((Rage-15) x 21) = 925 + (85 x 21) = 2.710 maximum normal Execute dmg Crit with Impale (20% crit bonus) and 3% crit bonus from Relentless Earthstorm: 2.710 x 2,23 = 6.043 maximum crit Execute dmg However i am most certain we all have seen Execute crits that were considerably higher - I assume that weapon damage must factor in: (For this Example: Bloodmoon @ 2000 AP with 5/5 2H dmg bonus = 1147 max Weapon Damage) 1147 + 925 + (85*21) = 3.857 max normal Execute Dmg x 2,23 = 8.601 maximum crit Execute dmg Now that's a figure i deem more realistic? But am i right or what am i missing here? Any tip/hint/insight much appreciated! Cheers Jack |
Other than that it is doubtful that your maximum execute (over what you have stated) isn't from battle grounds or an encounter where the mob or boss takes extra damage for a set time like Thaddius, the Curator, Magtheridon or Illidan Stormrage.
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
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Originally Posted by Gruntle
No, Execute damage is not based on your weapon damage. Execute damage "per execute" scales with rage (duh), ArP, Crit and Expertise (and hit if not >9%). Execute damage "per second" is way more complicate dto calculate sinc eit depends on your rage generation and weapon speed(s).
If you get higher damage than the theoretically allowed, my guess is that you are forgetting buffs that add damage, e.g. Deathwish. |
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Originally Posted by Cavein
Execute scales with death wish, blood frenzy as well as one-handed and two-handed weapon specializations. It can also be increased through the two set Tier 6 bonus and Improved Execute talent.
Other than that it is doubtful that your maximum execute (over what you have stated) isn't from battle grounds or an encounter where the mob or boss takes extra damage for a set time like Thaddius, the Curator, Magtheridon or Illidan Stormrage. |
Anyhow, i think i understand now what i was missing:
Deathwish = +20% dmg
Blood Frenzy = +4% dmg
Arms Talent Two-Handed Specialisation = +5% dmg (or Prot Talent One-Handed Specialisation = +10% dmg)
Fury Talent Improved Execute = -5 Rage cost, leaving 90 max Rage for Bonus Damage (per Rage)
T6 Bonus = -3 Rage cost
(Prot Talent Focused Rage = -3 Rage Cost)
Thus, it is theoretically possible (without Prot Talents) to have Execute coming at 7 Rage (without Focussed Rage), which would translate into:
({Base Dmg} + (93 x {Bonus Dmg per Rage})) x (1 + ({Death Wish}+{Blood Frenzy}+{Weapon Specialization})
(925 + (93 x 21)) x 1,29 = 3.712 maximum possible normal Dmg
The Crit would then be
{Normal Dmg} x (2 + {Impale}) x (1 + {Relentless Earthstorm Diamond})
3.712 x 2,20 x 1,03 = 8.411 maximum possible Crit Dmg
Thanks for Your swift responses - think i got it now... or not?
Last edited by Jackpott : 03/19/08 at 8:38 PM.
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
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Originally Posted by Cavein
Execute scales with [...] as well as one-handed and two-handed weapon specializations
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1. Rage (and burnoff above the minimum needed for the ability)
2. Armor (how much is left after debuffs)
3. Modifiers. The only 2 offhand being Deathwish and Ferocious Inspiration.
(4. Crit. Factor in Impale/RED.)
I've not yet seen an execute value above the theoretical ceiling mathed out in the Compendium. This math didn't include 1h/2h spec.
Edit: Applies to above poster as well. If anyone has a WWS demonstrating a value above 8272 or thereabouts on a non squirrelly mob, I'll take it as proof enough.
Edit2: @Jackpott: I don't know where you are getting the ability to spec 2/2 Impale, 2/2 Imp Execute, 3/3 Focused Rage...
Last edited by Mjollnir : 03/17/08 at 3:31 PM.
I've been raiding a bit on my 33/28 PvE specced Warrior and I have a question about maximizing DPS sub 20%.
I've been popping Recklessness, Death Wish and throwing Execute into my Auto/Slam/Instant rotation but this doesn't feel like it's working. Is it worth throwing on two 1hers and spamming Execute (in the style of a Fury Warr)? My worry is that with only 9% hit my rage gen could be streaky even with Recklessness. Is it worth sticking it out with my Auto/Slam/Instant rotation and forgetting about Execute all together?
I've been popping Recklessness, Death Wish and throwing Execute into my Auto/Slam/Instant rotation but this doesn't feel like it's working. Is it worth throwing on two 1hers and spamming Execute (in the style of a Fury Warr)? My worry is that with only 9% hit my rage gen could be streaky even with Recklessness. Is it worth sticking it out with my Auto/Slam/Instant rotation and forgetting about Execute all together?
Yes it is worth it putting 2 1h'ers on. Helps if the offhand one is reasonably fast for rage generation. There are one handers out there that also have hit rating on them. All the way from Vindicator's Brand up to Swiftsteel Bludgeon. Even with recklessness powering flurry non stop, a 2h isn't going to hit that fast and you will be wasting GCDs.
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Originally Posted by Mjollnir
I'd like to see some proof of this. It makes sense that it would, but at the same time sounds sketchy. It's my understanding 3 things matter:
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One-Handed Weapon Specialization - Spells - World of Warcraft
Two-Handed Weapon Specialization - Spells - World of Warcraft
(Yes, the wording of the 2h spec is different from the 1h one but they both apply the same +% dmg aura)
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
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Originally Posted by Mjollnir
Edit2: @Jackpott: I don't know where you are getting the ability to spec 2/2 Impale, 2/2 Imp Execute, 3/3 Focused Rage...
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"Thus, it is theoretically possible (without Prot Talents) to have Execute coming at 7 Rage (without Focussed Rage)"
T6 set bonus -3 and Imp Execute -5 = 15-8 = 7 Net Rage cost for Execute
Last edited by Jackpott : 03/19/08 at 8:36 PM.
From my experience, Execute damage per rage is always most effective (damage per rage wise) when hit at the minimum rage possible. So therefore you want to hit it as often as possible GCD permitting and try to not bank it up (obviously).
In a raid situation, Once you hit 30 rage, bloodthirst will outperform execute. Here are the numbers.
15 rage execute @30 rage = 1240. AP required for BT to outdamage = 2756
10 rage execute @30 rage = 1345. AP required for BT to outdamage = 2989
7 rage execute @30 rage = 1408. AP required for BT to outdamage = 3128
These AP values are easy to obtain in a raid situation. When using recklessness, haste pots, use trinket, heroism etc, its very easy to get 30 rage per GCD. When modeling execute, one must take into consideration the chance to go over 30 rage on a GCD, which if that happens they will hit bloodthirst instead of execute because I will do more damage.
That being said, basically one would have to tabulate the percent chance of an occurence of an event (such as main hand hit, off hand crit versus main hand hit off hand glance, etc.) and then multiply to that the rage ganied from that event. You take each of those and add them together to find the average rage gained per event, then you can find the rage that can be used either for an execute or a bloodthirst.
Keep in mind, there are dozens upon dozens of combinations of events. Heroism, recklessness, haste pot, damage modifiers, main hand crit, hit, glance, avoided, off hand crit, hit, glance, avoided, etc... Combinatorics can tell you how many combinations you can have (see Cominatorics on Wikipedia) but its up to the player to be able to figure out how to make the model work and sound right. And even then if it were made possible to figure out how to do it, it would take literally forever to combine all of the events.
In a raid situation, Once you hit 30 rage, bloodthirst will outperform execute. Here are the numbers.
15 rage execute @30 rage = 1240. AP required for BT to outdamage = 2756
10 rage execute @30 rage = 1345. AP required for BT to outdamage = 2989
7 rage execute @30 rage = 1408. AP required for BT to outdamage = 3128
These AP values are easy to obtain in a raid situation. When using recklessness, haste pots, use trinket, heroism etc, its very easy to get 30 rage per GCD. When modeling execute, one must take into consideration the chance to go over 30 rage on a GCD, which if that happens they will hit bloodthirst instead of execute because I will do more damage.
That being said, basically one would have to tabulate the percent chance of an occurence of an event (such as main hand hit, off hand crit versus main hand hit off hand glance, etc.) and then multiply to that the rage ganied from that event. You take each of those and add them together to find the average rage gained per event, then you can find the rage that can be used either for an execute or a bloodthirst.
Keep in mind, there are dozens upon dozens of combinations of events. Heroism, recklessness, haste pot, damage modifiers, main hand crit, hit, glance, avoided, off hand crit, hit, glance, avoided, etc... Combinatorics can tell you how many combinations you can have (see Cominatorics on Wikipedia) but its up to the player to be able to figure out how to make the model work and sound right. And even then if it were made possible to figure out how to do it, it would take literally forever to combine all of the events.
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Originally Posted by Hidden
...Also, we're talking about endgame geared Warriors as a T4 Warrior won't be seeing any of the Sunwell Haste gear, being the first Haste gear that's itemized properly, anytime soon. Haste is one of the best scaling stats out there for a Warrior, of course it's bad if your gear is.
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Badge Loot despite that you qualified it with "itemized properly" they are still significant upgrades for many people who are wondering how much gain they'll get from haste especially with all of the ArP they might be getting their hands on now that Hyjal/BT are ^soon^ open to the public.
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
I wanted to point out something rather odd that I noticed last MH clear. I'm fairly sure I managed to convert a windfury proc into a Heroic Strike. My computer has horrible fps so during Heroisms I generally just spam my Heroic Strike button and pray it doesn't leave me rage starved. While doing this I noticed that my combat text listed something like 2467 Heroic Strike [2 hits]. Now granted my computer's fps isn't that great it IS good enough to differentiate between two Heroic Strikes that would have been a bit more than a second apart. I'm going to try and see if I can pull off a similar feat next raid and if so possibly take a look at the combat log for confirmation. Has anyone else noticed this?
Edit: Should also mention that around the same time this anomaly popped up on my screen, I got a notification saying "Windfury Attack"
Edit: Should also mention that around the same time this anomaly popped up on my screen, I got a notification saying "Windfury Attack"
Last edited by Voxx : 03/22/08 at 3:13 AM.
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Originally Posted by Voxx
I wanted to point out something rather odd that I noticed last MH clear. I'm fairly sure I managed to convert a windfury proc into a Heroic Strike. My computer has horrible fps so during Heroisms I generally just spam my Heroic Strike button and pray it doesn't leave me rage starved. While doing this I noticed that my combat text listed something like 2467 Heroic Strike [2 hits]. Now granted my computer's fps isn't that great it IS good enough to differentiate between two Heroic Strikes that would have been a bit more than a second apart. I'm going to try and see if I can pull off a similar feat next raid and if so possibly take a look at the combat log for confirmation. Has anyone else noticed this?
Edit: Should also mention that around the same time this anomaly popped up on my screen, I got a notification saying "Windfury Attack" |
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
In the protection warrior thread mention is made of being able to use heroic strike on WF procs if you spam it fast enough. I was considering making a macro on my g15 to spam heroic strike, should be able to confirm it pretty easily if I use a two hander and get some testing in on blasted lands mobs.
edit: After finding no shaman around to help me test at this hour, it occurs to me that anyone who happened to be sword spec could probably test this even more easily, as I'm fairly certain if you can double HS off a windfury proc, the same should work for the extra swings from sword spec.
edit: After finding no shaman around to help me test at this hour, it occurs to me that anyone who happened to be sword spec could probably test this even more easily, as I'm fairly certain if you can double HS off a windfury proc, the same should work for the extra swings from sword spec.
Last edited by Katrael : 03/22/08 at 5:29 AM.
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Originally Posted by Voxx
Edit: Should also mention that around the same time this anomaly popped up on my screen, I got a notification saying "Windfury Attack"
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Originally Posted by Bliss
I am quite sure if you are spamming fast enough this will happen with both HS and cleave. During Hyjal trash I get lots of "quad cleaves" due to the excess rage I get from tanking a few ghouls/spider guys.
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I can confirm that windfury procs can be converted into heroic strikes.
Last time i parsed my combat log after a teron kill, i found several windfury->heroic strike proccs.
23:10'11.578 Raiod's Melee hits Teron Gorefiend for 227 (glancing)
23:10'11.750 Raiod gains Windfury Attack
23:10'11.796 Raiod's Heroic Strike parried by Teron Gorefiend
Here is the WWS:
Wow Web Stats
Last time i parsed my combat log after a teron kill, i found several windfury->heroic strike proccs.
23:10'11.578 Raiod's Melee hits Teron Gorefiend for 227 (glancing)
23:10'11.750 Raiod gains Windfury Attack
23:10'11.796 Raiod's Heroic Strike parried by Teron Gorefiend
Here is the WWS:
Wow Web Stats
someone try the 26/35 spec with 2 swords ?
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Originally Posted by Mjollnir
You said the two things: 'spamming HS' and 'WF'. You merely Heroic Strike'd your WF proc.
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Originally Posted by Voxx
That's what I was suggesting happened...
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I wouldn't be surprised at all if you could Heroic Strike WF procs. There are many bugs in this game concerning many events happening in the same time: flurry bug with same speed weapons; reflecting all spells cast on you with less than ~0.5sec interval; etc
I suppose there isnt much one can do to control or predict it though? Timing attacks so you get a free 445+modifiers AP would be nice.
Then again there are so many problems with WF that Im not even sure its own attacks get the bonus sometimes.
Then again there are so many problems with WF that Im not even sure its own attacks get the bonus sometimes.
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Originally Posted by Kasi
Yes it is worth it putting 2 1h'ers on. Helps if the offhand one is reasonably fast for rage generation. There are one handers out there that also have hit rating on them. All the way from Vindicator's Brand up to Swiftsteel Bludgeon. Even with recklessness powering flurry non stop, a 2h isn't going to hit that fast and you will be wasting GCDs.
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Originally Posted by Grayson Carlyle
Haste is not exceptional for Arms, at all. It's not even good, it's just okay, and the spreadsheet will tell you this.
Haste affects less than 40% of my damage, and it only affects that damage 2.5 seconds out of every 3. It's only 1/3 effective of it's true potential if I never used an instant attack. It also adds ZERO rage, yes, that's right ZERO. Rage is normalized over swing speed, so attacking quicker does not give me more rage. Haste is not something Arms should ever be trying to get. It's neat if the item already as a ton of str, crit and armor pen, and you're hit capped. |
RAGE PER SECOND
A fury warrior's rage flow fully controls his second half of his DPS, his yellow attacks. To be able to determine how frequent he can use those abilities, we must arrive at an ideal RPS value.
Luckily, we already have our ideal white DPS value. All we have to do then, is to find a way to plug it into blizzard's rage generation formula, shown below for level 70.
(7.5d / 274.7 + f * WepSpd) / 2
f = 7 for MH crit, 3.5 for MH hit and OH crit, and 1.75 for OH hit
d is the damage dealt, or the damage you apply with armor taken into account. Blizzard wants us to get 1 rage for every 73.25 damage we deal plus a normalized amount based on our weapon speed and rolled hit. For example, if we were to crit with our 2.6 speed main hand for 1000 and hit with our 2.6 speed off hand for 300, we would get 22 and 6 rage.
Since we are working with infinites, we want to know rage over time, but this formula only shows the rage per hit. Luckily you have me to combine all the fancy math for you.
RPS = .01365[WhiteDPS] + 21 / 8 * (1 - [%dodge] - [%misswhite] + [%crit])(1 + [%hasteAVG])(1 + .25[%FlurryUp]) + 1/3[AManage] + 3[UBWrath](MHWepSpd[MHW+HS+WFperSec] + OHWepSpd[OHWperSec]) + (20 + 3[ImpBR]) / 60
So actually, both portions of the rage gen formula, normalized and not normalized, are affected by haste ratnig.
I think he refers to the fact that rage is normalized of swing speed for flurry. Aka if you have flurry up "WepSpd" in your equation shrinks by 25%. However thats only for flurry as far as i know. Stats haste, doesnt affect this value, and my current testing supports it. Im still far from conclusion here, maybe someone else can give his input.
However the previous post is EXTREMELY wrong.
Haste affects 100% of arms warrior damage, unless he is at haste cap. You swing more often. Thats your 40%. You slam more often too though... every slam is following a white swing - more white swings=more rage. You MS every 2 slams , so more haste= more swings=more slams=more MS. Finally you WW every 2 MS, and again it makes it dependable on haste.
To make an example. Lets say your weapon prehaste, flurried speed is 3.0, post haste 2.5 to ease the calculations.
A total hit-slam-ms-hit-slam-ww-hit-slam-ms-hit-slam-gcd rotation, done perfectly takes
(3.0+0.5)x4 = 14 seconds.
Thats 1 swing every 3.5 second
1 slam every 3.5 second
1 MS every 7 seconds
1 WW every 14 seconds.
Yes a normal slam rotation doesnt allow you to use skills on CD.
If we haste the weapon to 2.5 speed then the rotation becomes (2.5+0.5)*4=12 sec long
1 hit every 3 seconds
1 slam every 3 seconds
1 MS every 6 seconds
1 WW every 12 seconds.
Every skill usage increase 3.5/3 times . Its a bit less then raw haste value of 3/2.5 = 20%, actually 20% haste gives arms warrior an 16.(6) % increase in speed of rotation. However it still makes haste affect ALL of the warrior abilities.
So we have 2 options:
a) Haste doesnt affect rage. Rage generation/use will be exactly same - its still same 4 white swings having to support 4 slams 2 ms and 1 ww. The increase haste gives is equal to [WpnSpd/(1+haste%)+0.5]/[WpnSped+0.5]
b) Haste does affect rage. The damage increases the same, but you need more rage to keep your rotation. So unless you had surplus before, you will lack it. In most cases it means, you wont be able to support the rotation fully.
However the previous post is EXTREMELY wrong.
Haste affects 100% of arms warrior damage, unless he is at haste cap. You swing more often. Thats your 40%. You slam more often too though... every slam is following a white swing - more white swings=more rage. You MS every 2 slams , so more haste= more swings=more slams=more MS. Finally you WW every 2 MS, and again it makes it dependable on haste.
To make an example. Lets say your weapon prehaste, flurried speed is 3.0, post haste 2.5 to ease the calculations.
A total hit-slam-ms-hit-slam-ww-hit-slam-ms-hit-slam-gcd rotation, done perfectly takes
(3.0+0.5)x4 = 14 seconds.
Thats 1 swing every 3.5 second
1 slam every 3.5 second
1 MS every 7 seconds
1 WW every 14 seconds.
Yes a normal slam rotation doesnt allow you to use skills on CD.
If we haste the weapon to 2.5 speed then the rotation becomes (2.5+0.5)*4=12 sec long
1 hit every 3 seconds
1 slam every 3 seconds
1 MS every 6 seconds
1 WW every 12 seconds.
Every skill usage increase 3.5/3 times . Its a bit less then raw haste value of 3/2.5 = 20%, actually 20% haste gives arms warrior an 16.(6) % increase in speed of rotation. However it still makes haste affect ALL of the warrior abilities.
So we have 2 options:
a) Haste doesnt affect rage. Rage generation/use will be exactly same - its still same 4 white swings having to support 4 slams 2 ms and 1 ww. The increase haste gives is equal to [WpnSpd/(1+haste%)+0.5]/[WpnSped+0.5]
b) Haste does affect rage. The damage increases the same, but you need more rage to keep your rotation. So unless you had surplus before, you will lack it. In most cases it means, you wont be able to support the rotation fully.
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
Execute - Correct Formula
Hi All,
maybe it's hidden somewhere in the vast archives of these forums, however after hours of searching i give up and bother You all with this question:
How to properly calculate the dmg caused by Execute?
According to the tooltip (lets assume 100 Rage, no Improved Execute, no Focussed Rage, no Blood Frenzy):
Base Damage + ((Rage-15) x 21) = 925 + (85 x 21) = 2.710 maximum normal Execute dmg
Crit with Impale (20% crit bonus) and 3% crit bonus from Relentless Earthstorm:
2.710 x 2,23 = 6.043 maximum crit Execute dmg
However i am most certain we all have seen Execute crits that were considerably higher - I assume that weapon damage must factor in:
(For this Example: Bloodmoon @ 2000 AP with 5/5 2H dmg bonus = 1147 max Weapon Damage)
1147 + 925 + (85*21) = 3.857 max normal Execute Dmg x 2,23 = 8.601 maximum crit Execute dmg
Now that's a figure i deem more realistic? But am i right or what am i missing here?
Any tip/hint/insight much appreciated!
maybe it's hidden somewhere in the vast archives of these forums, however after hours of searching i give up and bother You all with this question:
How to properly calculate the dmg caused by Execute?
According to the tooltip (lets assume 100 Rage, no Improved Execute, no Focussed Rage, no Blood Frenzy):
Base Damage + ((Rage-15) x 21) = 925 + (85 x 21) = 2.710 maximum normal Execute dmg
Crit with Impale (20% crit bonus) and 3% crit bonus from Relentless Earthstorm:
2.710 x 2,23 = 6.043 maximum crit Execute dmg
However i am most certain we all have seen Execute crits that were considerably higher - I assume that weapon damage must factor in:
(For this Example: Bloodmoon @ 2000 AP with 5/5 2H dmg bonus = 1147 max Weapon Damage)
1147 + 925 + (85*21) = 3.857 max normal Execute Dmg x 2,23 = 8.601 maximum crit Execute dmg
Now that's a figure i deem more realistic? But am i right or what am i missing here?
Any tip/hint/insight much appreciated!
Last edited by Jackpott : 03/19/08 at 8:39 PM.
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Originally Posted by Jackpott
Hi All,
maybe it's hidden somewhere in the vast archives of these forums, however after hours of searching i give up and bother You all with this question: How to properly calculate the dmg caused by Execute? According to the tooltip (lets assume 100 Rage, no Improved Execute, no Focussed Rage, no Blood Frenzy): Base Damage + ((Rage-15) x 21) = 925 + (85 x 21) = 2.710 maximum normal Execute dmg Crit with Impale (20% crit bonus) and 3% crit bonus from Relentless Earthstorm: 2.710 x 2,23 = 6.043 maximum crit Execute dmg However i am most certain we all have seen Execute crits that were considerably higher - I assume that weapon damage must factor in: (For this Example: Bloodmoon @ 2000 AP with 5/5 2H dmg bonus = 1147 max Weapon Damage) 1147 + 925 + (85*21) = 3.857 max normal Execute Dmg x 2,23 = 8.601 maximum crit Execute dmg Now that's a figure i deem more realistic? But am i right or what am i missing here? Any tip/hint/insight much appreciated! Cheers Jack |
If you get higher damage than the theoretically allowed, my guess is that you are forgetting buffs that add damage, e.g. Deathwish.
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Originally Posted by Jackpott
Hi All,
maybe it's hidden somewhere in the vast archives of these forums, however after hours of searching i give up and bother You all with this question: How to properly calculate the dmg caused by Execute? According to the tooltip (lets assume 100 Rage, no Improved Execute, no Focussed Rage, no Blood Frenzy): Base Damage + ((Rage-15) x 21) = 925 + (85 x 21) = 2.710 maximum normal Execute dmg Crit with Impale (20% crit bonus) and 3% crit bonus from Relentless Earthstorm: 2.710 x 2,23 = 6.043 maximum crit Execute dmg However i am most certain we all have seen Execute crits that were considerably higher - I assume that weapon damage must factor in: (For this Example: Bloodmoon @ 2000 AP with 5/5 2H dmg bonus = 1147 max Weapon Damage) 1147 + 925 + (85*21) = 3.857 max normal Execute Dmg x 2,23 = 8.601 maximum crit Execute dmg Now that's a figure i deem more realistic? But am i right or what am i missing here? Any tip/hint/insight much appreciated! Cheers Jack |
Other than that it is doubtful that your maximum execute (over what you have stated) isn't from battle grounds or an encounter where the mob or boss takes extra damage for a set time like Thaddius, the Curator, Magtheridon or Illidan Stormrage.
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
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Originally Posted by Gruntle
No, Execute damage is not based on your weapon damage. Execute damage "per execute" scales with rage (duh), ArP, Crit and Expertise (and hit if not >9%). Execute damage "per second" is way more complicate dto calculate sinc eit depends on your rage generation and weapon speed(s).
If you get higher damage than the theoretically allowed, my guess is that you are forgetting buffs that add damage, e.g. Deathwish. |
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Originally Posted by Cavein
Execute scales with death wish, blood frenzy as well as one-handed and two-handed weapon specializations. It can also be increased through the two set Tier 6 bonus and Improved Execute talent.
Other than that it is doubtful that your maximum execute (over what you have stated) isn't from battle grounds or an encounter where the mob or boss takes extra damage for a set time like Thaddius, the Curator, Magtheridon or Illidan Stormrage. |
Anyhow, i think i understand now what i was missing:
Deathwish = +20% dmg
Blood Frenzy = +4% dmg
Arms Talent Two-Handed Specialisation = +5% dmg (or Prot Talent One-Handed Specialisation = +10% dmg)
Fury Talent Improved Execute = -5 Rage cost, leaving 90 max Rage for Bonus Damage (per Rage)
T6 Bonus = -3 Rage cost
(Prot Talent Focused Rage = -3 Rage Cost)
Thus, it is theoretically possible (without Prot Talents) to have Execute coming at 7 Rage (without Focussed Rage), which would translate into:
({Base Dmg} + (93 x {Bonus Dmg per Rage})) x (1 + ({Death Wish}+{Blood Frenzy}+{Weapon Specialization})
(925 + (93 x 21)) x 1,29 = 3.712 maximum possible normal Dmg
The Crit would then be
{Normal Dmg} x (2 + {Impale}) x (1 + {Relentless Earthstorm Diamond})
3.712 x 2,20 x 1,03 = 8.411 maximum possible Crit Dmg
Thanks for Your swift responses - think i got it now... or not?
Last edited by Jackpott : 03/19/08 at 8:38 PM.
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
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Originally Posted by Cavein
Execute scales with [...] as well as one-handed and two-handed weapon specializations
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1. Rage (and burnoff above the minimum needed for the ability)
2. Armor (how much is left after debuffs)
3. Modifiers. The only 2 offhand being Deathwish and Ferocious Inspiration.
(4. Crit. Factor in Impale/RED.)
I've not yet seen an execute value above the theoretical ceiling mathed out in the Compendium. This math didn't include 1h/2h spec.
Edit: Applies to above poster as well. If anyone has a WWS demonstrating a value above 8272 or thereabouts on a non squirrelly mob, I'll take it as proof enough.
Edit2: @Jackpott: I don't know where you are getting the ability to spec 2/2 Impale, 2/2 Imp Execute, 3/3 Focused Rage...
Last edited by Mjollnir : 03/17/08 at 3:31 PM.
I've been raiding a bit on my 33/28 PvE specced Warrior and I have a question about maximizing DPS sub 20%.
I've been popping Recklessness, Death Wish and throwing Execute into my Auto/Slam/Instant rotation but this doesn't feel like it's working. Is it worth throwing on two 1hers and spamming Execute (in the style of a Fury Warr)? My worry is that with only 9% hit my rage gen could be streaky even with Recklessness. Is it worth sticking it out with my Auto/Slam/Instant rotation and forgetting about Execute all together?
I've been popping Recklessness, Death Wish and throwing Execute into my Auto/Slam/Instant rotation but this doesn't feel like it's working. Is it worth throwing on two 1hers and spamming Execute (in the style of a Fury Warr)? My worry is that with only 9% hit my rage gen could be streaky even with Recklessness. Is it worth sticking it out with my Auto/Slam/Instant rotation and forgetting about Execute all together?
Yes it is worth it putting 2 1h'ers on. Helps if the offhand one is reasonably fast for rage generation. There are one handers out there that also have hit rating on them. All the way from Vindicator's Brand up to Swiftsteel Bludgeon. Even with recklessness powering flurry non stop, a 2h isn't going to hit that fast and you will be wasting GCDs.
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Originally Posted by Mjollnir
I'd like to see some proof of this. It makes sense that it would, but at the same time sounds sketchy. It's my understanding 3 things matter:
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One-Handed Weapon Specialization - Spells - World of Warcraft
Two-Handed Weapon Specialization - Spells - World of Warcraft
(Yes, the wording of the 2h spec is different from the 1h one but they both apply the same +% dmg aura)
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
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Originally Posted by Mjollnir
Edit2: @Jackpott: I don't know where you are getting the ability to spec 2/2 Impale, 2/2 Imp Execute, 3/3 Focused Rage...
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"Thus, it is theoretically possible (without Prot Talents) to have Execute coming at 7 Rage (without Focussed Rage)"
T6 set bonus -3 and Imp Execute -5 = 15-8 = 7 Net Rage cost for Execute
Last edited by Jackpott : 03/19/08 at 8:36 PM.
From my experience, Execute damage per rage is always most effective (damage per rage wise) when hit at the minimum rage possible. So therefore you want to hit it as often as possible GCD permitting and try to not bank it up (obviously).
In a raid situation, Once you hit 30 rage, bloodthirst will outperform execute. Here are the numbers.
15 rage execute @30 rage = 1240. AP required for BT to outdamage = 2756
10 rage execute @30 rage = 1345. AP required for BT to outdamage = 2989
7 rage execute @30 rage = 1408. AP required for BT to outdamage = 3128
These AP values are easy to obtain in a raid situation. When using recklessness, haste pots, use trinket, heroism etc, its very easy to get 30 rage per GCD. When modeling execute, one must take into consideration the chance to go over 30 rage on a GCD, which if that happens they will hit bloodthirst instead of execute because I will do more damage.
That being said, basically one would have to tabulate the percent chance of an occurence of an event (such as main hand hit, off hand crit versus main hand hit off hand glance, etc.) and then multiply to that the rage ganied from that event. You take each of those and add them together to find the average rage gained per event, then you can find the rage that can be used either for an execute or a bloodthirst.
Keep in mind, there are dozens upon dozens of combinations of events. Heroism, recklessness, haste pot, damage modifiers, main hand crit, hit, glance, avoided, off hand crit, hit, glance, avoided, etc... Combinatorics can tell you how many combinations you can have (see Cominatorics on Wikipedia) but its up to the player to be able to figure out how to make the model work and sound right. And even then if it were made possible to figure out how to do it, it would take literally forever to combine all of the events.
In a raid situation, Once you hit 30 rage, bloodthirst will outperform execute. Here are the numbers.
15 rage execute @30 rage = 1240. AP required for BT to outdamage = 2756
10 rage execute @30 rage = 1345. AP required for BT to outdamage = 2989
7 rage execute @30 rage = 1408. AP required for BT to outdamage = 3128
These AP values are easy to obtain in a raid situation. When using recklessness, haste pots, use trinket, heroism etc, its very easy to get 30 rage per GCD. When modeling execute, one must take into consideration the chance to go over 30 rage on a GCD, which if that happens they will hit bloodthirst instead of execute because I will do more damage.
That being said, basically one would have to tabulate the percent chance of an occurence of an event (such as main hand hit, off hand crit versus main hand hit off hand glance, etc.) and then multiply to that the rage ganied from that event. You take each of those and add them together to find the average rage gained per event, then you can find the rage that can be used either for an execute or a bloodthirst.
Keep in mind, there are dozens upon dozens of combinations of events. Heroism, recklessness, haste pot, damage modifiers, main hand crit, hit, glance, avoided, off hand crit, hit, glance, avoided, etc... Combinatorics can tell you how many combinations you can have (see Cominatorics on Wikipedia) but its up to the player to be able to figure out how to make the model work and sound right. And even then if it were made possible to figure out how to do it, it would take literally forever to combine all of the events.
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Originally Posted by Hidden
...Also, we're talking about endgame geared Warriors as a T4 Warrior won't be seeing any of the Sunwell Haste gear, being the first Haste gear that's itemized properly, anytime soon. Haste is one of the best scaling stats out there for a Warrior, of course it's bad if your gear is.
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Badge Loot despite that you qualified it with "itemized properly" they are still significant upgrades for many people who are wondering how much gain they'll get from haste especially with all of the ArP they might be getting their hands on now that Hyjal/BT are ^soon^ open to the public.
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
I wanted to point out something rather odd that I noticed last MH clear. I'm fairly sure I managed to convert a windfury proc into a Heroic Strike. My computer has horrible fps so during Heroisms I generally just spam my Heroic Strike button and pray it doesn't leave me rage starved. While doing this I noticed that my combat text listed something like 2467 Heroic Strike [2 hits]. Now granted my computer's fps isn't that great it IS good enough to differentiate between two Heroic Strikes that would have been a bit more than a second apart. I'm going to try and see if I can pull off a similar feat next raid and if so possibly take a look at the combat log for confirmation. Has anyone else noticed this?
Edit: Should also mention that around the same time this anomaly popped up on my screen, I got a notification saying "Windfury Attack"
Edit: Should also mention that around the same time this anomaly popped up on my screen, I got a notification saying "Windfury Attack"
Last edited by Voxx : 03/22/08 at 3:13 AM.
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Originally Posted by Voxx
I wanted to point out something rather odd that I noticed last MH clear. I'm fairly sure I managed to convert a windfury proc into a Heroic Strike. My computer has horrible fps so during Heroisms I generally just spam my Heroic Strike button and pray it doesn't leave me rage starved. While doing this I noticed that my combat text listed something like 2467 Heroic Strike [2 hits]. Now granted my computer's fps isn't that great it IS good enough to differentiate between two Heroic Strikes that would have been a bit more than a second apart. I'm going to try and see if I can pull off a similar feat next raid and if so possibly take a look at the combat log for confirmation. Has anyone else noticed this?
Edit: Should also mention that around the same time this anomaly popped up on my screen, I got a notification saying "Windfury Attack" |
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
In the protection warrior thread mention is made of being able to use heroic strike on WF procs if you spam it fast enough. I was considering making a macro on my g15 to spam heroic strike, should be able to confirm it pretty easily if I use a two hander and get some testing in on blasted lands mobs.
edit: After finding no shaman around to help me test at this hour, it occurs to me that anyone who happened to be sword spec could probably test this even more easily, as I'm fairly certain if you can double HS off a windfury proc, the same should work for the extra swings from sword spec.
edit: After finding no shaman around to help me test at this hour, it occurs to me that anyone who happened to be sword spec could probably test this even more easily, as I'm fairly certain if you can double HS off a windfury proc, the same should work for the extra swings from sword spec.
Last edited by Katrael : 03/22/08 at 5:29 AM.
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Originally Posted by Voxx
Edit: Should also mention that around the same time this anomaly popped up on my screen, I got a notification saying "Windfury Attack"
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Originally Posted by Bliss
I am quite sure if you are spamming fast enough this will happen with both HS and cleave. During Hyjal trash I get lots of "quad cleaves" due to the excess rage I get from tanking a few ghouls/spider guys.
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I can confirm that windfury procs can be converted into heroic strikes.
Last time i parsed my combat log after a teron kill, i found several windfury->heroic strike proccs.
23:10'11.578 Raiod's Melee hits Teron Gorefiend for 227 (glancing)
23:10'11.750 Raiod gains Windfury Attack
23:10'11.796 Raiod's Heroic Strike parried by Teron Gorefiend
Here is the WWS:
Wow Web Stats
Last time i parsed my combat log after a teron kill, i found several windfury->heroic strike proccs.
23:10'11.578 Raiod's Melee hits Teron Gorefiend for 227 (glancing)
23:10'11.750 Raiod gains Windfury Attack
23:10'11.796 Raiod's Heroic Strike parried by Teron Gorefiend
Here is the WWS:
Wow Web Stats
someone try the 26/35 spec with 2 swords ?
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Originally Posted by Mjollnir
You said the two things: 'spamming HS' and 'WF'. You merely Heroic Strike'd your WF proc.
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Originally Posted by Voxx
That's what I was suggesting happened...
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I wouldn't be surprised at all if you could Heroic Strike WF procs. There are many bugs in this game concerning many events happening in the same time: flurry bug with same speed weapons; reflecting all spells cast on you with less than ~0.5sec interval; etc
I suppose there isnt much one can do to control or predict it though? Timing attacks so you get a free 445+modifiers AP would be nice.
Then again there are so many problems with WF that Im not even sure its own attacks get the bonus sometimes.
Then again there are so many problems with WF that Im not even sure its own attacks get the bonus sometimes.
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Originally Posted by Kasi
Yes it is worth it putting 2 1h'ers on. Helps if the offhand one is reasonably fast for rage generation. There are one handers out there that also have hit rating on them. All the way from Vindicator's Brand up to Swiftsteel Bludgeon. Even with recklessness powering flurry non stop, a 2h isn't going to hit that fast and you will be wasting GCDs.
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Originally Posted by Drwal
I wouldn't be surprised at all if you could Heroic Strike WF procs. There are many bugs in this game concerning many events happening in the same time: flurry bug with same speed weapons; reflecting all spells cast on you with less than ~0.5sec interval; etc
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Originally Posted by Shha
Wisdom is at fault.
Haste = best stat for BT geared fury warrior. Imo for MS too, but thats personal preference with rotation. Haste only has bad connotation, because its found on HORRIBLY itemized items. Haste as stat = amazing, Haste items from BT = crap. Bludgeon is one of the exceptions - haste item with good item budgeting. |
I've been looking through the WWS reports for some Brutallus-poven warriors. Somehow it seems you must be a 2h warrior to get an invite to this fight. The only DW-warriors I've found had 2x warglaives, that is out of reach for most of us.
Is it really that important to have the blood frenzy debuff on the boss this time? I might have to equip my 2h-set then and pratices the slam rotation.
Is it really that important to have the blood frenzy debuff on the boss this time? I might have to equip my 2h-set then and pratices the slam rotation.
Edited onPatch 2.4.0
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Originally Posted by DKP-Borgar
I've been looking through the WWS reports for some Brutallus-poven warriors. Somehow it seems you must be a 2h warrior to get an invite to this fight. The only DW-warriors I've found had 2x warglaives, that is out of reach for most of us.
Is it really that important to have the blood frenzy debuff on the boss this time? I might have to equip my 2h-set then and pratices the slam rotation. |
The difference between the gear choices for a fury warrior and an arms / slam warrior is marginal. As long as your guild has not been short sighted in the benefits you may bring using two 1-handers or a 2-handed weapon, respeccing should not be an issue (perhaps inexperience using slam may be...).
Just because a lot of the WWS parses show slamming blood frenzy warriors in them does not preclude using a fury warrior to successfully execute the encounter but it *may* not be as raid efficient.
Last edited by Cavein : 03/31/08 at 7:54 AM.
I have a question about armor ignore in sunwell. Having just beat Kalecgos encounter, we are now facing Brut. What kind of arp should I be aiming for? My current set gives me 1700, but my crit is lowish, at 31.3%. Should i switch in two items, lowering armor ignore to 1469 but upping crit to 33.6%? Part of the question I guess would be, is there an "armor ignore cap" for Brut? I heard he has insane armor, how much is needed, assuming FF, sunderx5 and CoR?
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Originally Posted by Kupeludo
I have a question about armor ignore in sunwell. Having just beat Kalecgos encounter, we are now facing Brut. What kind of arp should I be aiming for? My current set gives me 1700, but my crit is lowish, at 31.3%. Should i switch in two items, lowering armor ignore to 1469 but upping crit to 33.6%? Part of the question I guess would be, is there an "armor ignore cap" for Brut? I heard he has insane armor, how much is needed, assuming FF, sunderx5 and CoR?
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Originally Posted by Kupeludo
I have a question about armor ignore in sunwell. Having just beat Kalecgos encounter, we are now facing Brut. What kind of arp should I be aiming for? My current set gives me 1700, but my crit is lowish, at 31.3%. Should i switch in two items, lowering armor ignore to 1469 but upping crit to 33.6%? Part of the question I guess would be, is there an "armor ignore cap" for Brut? I heard he has insane armor, how much is needed, assuming FF, sunderx5 and CoR?
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Talking about the future of DPS warrior in general, I haven't been fury for quite a long time. By looking at some WWS, I can see that a lot of guilds use Arms Warrior for the "warrior slot". Is fury still viable? I mean, can a fury warrior outdps a T6 rogue, a T6 hunter?
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Originally Posted by Gograh
Talking about the future of DPS warrior in general, I haven't been fury for quite a long time. By looking at some WWS, I can see that a lot of guilds use Arms Warrior for the "warrior slot". Is fury still viable? I mean, can a fury warrior outdps a T6 rogue, a T6 hunter?
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And yes I'd say fury is still viable in sunwell.
Ok I see. I'm thinking about purchasing the arena s03 2.6 speed axe set to go fury. Can't stand being arms anymore, having to do backflips to get some crappy dps, watching that swing bar. (I have nightmares with the swing bar, I wake up in the middle of the night crying)
back to fury, what about aggro issues? Our fury warrior (in ssc-tk-hyjal-bt) had to auto-attack or even stop hitting the boss regularly because of aggro issues. Is it still like that? (was there any change regarding this?)
back to fury, what about aggro issues? Our fury warrior (in ssc-tk-hyjal-bt) had to auto-attack or even stop hitting the boss regularly because of aggro issues. Is it still like that? (was there any change regarding this?)
My experience with fury is that with a good tank, you don't have aggro issues on most fights. Obvious exceptions include warglaives, etc.
In fact, having gone back and forth between Arms and Fury, I find that the aggro reduction from fury talents can be quite noticeable.
In fact, having gone back and forth between Arms and Fury, I find that the aggro reduction from fury talents can be quite noticeable.
We are busy wiping on Brut atm and with a 4% enrage wipe being our best try (a lock went down first) with 2 Fury warriors in raid, I'd say they are still very viable for Sunwell.
I calculated how much extra dps either myself (dual glaives) or my fellow fury warrior (1 glaive) would make up by going amrs and due to a setup with not much pyhsical dps, its barely worth it.
Then take into account that blood frenzy isnt always up and can lapse for split seconds... We are sticking with Fury for the kill tonight.
I calculated how much extra dps either myself (dual glaives) or my fellow fury warrior (1 glaive) would make up by going amrs and due to a setup with not much pyhsical dps, its barely worth it.
Then take into account that blood frenzy isnt always up and can lapse for split seconds... We are sticking with Fury for the kill tonight.
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Originally Posted by Halle
We are busy wiping on Brut atm and with a 4% enrage wipe being our best try (a lock went down first) with 2 Fury warriors in raid, I'd say they are still very viable for Sunwell.
I calculated how much extra dps either myself (dual glaives) or my fellow fury warrior (1 glaive) would make up by going amrs and due to a setup with not much pyhsical dps, its barely worth it. Then take into account that blood frenzy isnt always up and can lapse for split seconds... We are sticking with Fury for the kill tonight. |
Arms or Fury doesn't really matter that much, if you play good and get the maximum out of your char. I was Fury, my DPS were bad and we still killed him
.I killed Brutallus as Arms. crappy dps, normally I could only outdps the shadow priest.. sometimes the ret pally rarely the enhancement shaman. If my fury dps (no warglaives, over 6 months killing illidan we got 4 offhands, no main hand) can make up for the loss of blood frenzy (plus crappy dps) I'd love to see the swing bar vanishing from my face.
Arms does close enough to Fury damage by itself. The problem is when people spec Arms just because it is technically the highest Warrior RDPS spec without considering other factors. How many phyiscal damage dealers do you bring? Do they always flask, food buff, drum, stone, poison etc for every fight or is simply beating something enough for some of them? Given equal mindsets and close to equal ability, Arms is going to pull ahead, but the difference seems a bit overblown most of the time to me. Under the most opitmal conditions and with the most bleeding edge guilds Blood Frenzy would add close to 500 RPDS, more if they are very melee heavy. From the WWS that I've seen from "regular" guilds as well as my own, it's closer to 350 RDPS. My gear isn't completely optimized for a 2h, but it plays well enough with a CE, and maybe I'm just horrible with Arms, but every single time I've played 33/28 on a raid the overall difference in RDPS is usually around plus or minus 30 difference from what I do as Fury, and that's with no deaths. If even one physical damage dealer dies and can't get a battle rez, my whole reason for even speccing Arms is down the drain.
Wow Web Stats
I would have to do 1835 damage on that fight as Arms for it to equal what I do as Fury. That's not even an advantage, that's just breaking even. Not an impossible number to reach either, but if it's not going to play a decisive factor, you should play whichever spec you enjoy more on raids as a Warrior.
Wow Web Stats
I would have to do 1835 damage on that fight as Arms for it to equal what I do as Fury. That's not even an advantage, that's just breaking even. Not an impossible number to reach either, but if it's not going to play a decisive factor, you should play whichever spec you enjoy more on raids as a Warrior.
I think I'm starting to go crazy or just have some really strange delusions, wanted to make sure I wasn't off my rocker. Done about 18 attempts on Really High Armor Boss in Sunwell (RHABiS) last night and for some reason my 17/44 DPS was in the shithouse the entire time. I respecced 33/28 after 8 of them and my DPS not only went up (by something around 1-200) but the contribution was along the lines of 510 DPS (see this) nudged me into 6th instead of the 13-15 I'd been hovering at the entire time as Fury. My gear stays basically the same between the two with a [Dragonstrike] and a [Warglaive of Azzinoth] instead of the [Cataclysm's Edge]. I've been wracking my mind trying to figure out why the hell this is happening, but haven't figured anything out.
Elixir of Demonslaying shows up from attempts 9 and up. I can't tell if you were flasked before or not, but if not, that's a decent difference in AP.
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Originally Posted by Graul
Elixir of Demonslaying shows up from attempts 9 and up. I can't tell if you were flasked before or not, but if not, that's a decent difference in AP.
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I've been going over a few threads digging up some information, but most of it seems to be a bit outdated, while on paper season 3 1h'ers seem to outperform Dragonstrike, I was wondering how Dragonstrike actually compares (with the current haste values) since I'm considering going to it over S3 MH.
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Originally Posted by shed
I've been going over a few threads digging up some information, but most of it seems to be a bit outdated, while on paper season 3 1h'ers seem to outperform Dragonstrike, I was wondering how Dragonstrike actually compares (with the current haste values) since I'm considering going to it over S3 MH.
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Originally Posted by Kaan
For me (at least) Dragonstrike slightly delivers more DPS than a S3 sword, this is true in both, Grims / Allcoms and landsoul's sheets. However, the difference is at most 3 DPS. With "outdatet" you mean the haste-value that remains unresolved?
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I just finished crafting it myself and will do my own testing, but I think it will provide more overall DPS.
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Originally Posted by DKP-Borgar
I've been looking through the WWS reports for some Brutallus-poven warriors. Somehow it seems you must be a 2h warrior to get an invite to this fight. The only DW-warriors I've found had 2x warglaives, that is out of reach for most of us.
Is it really that important to have the blood frenzy debuff on the boss this time? I might have to equip my 2h-set then and pratices the slam rotation. |
However BF debuff IS a big thing and basically our arms warrior is a dps bot. We use 2 ferals for tanking, so his job is to keep imp demo, imp clap, blood frenzy etc. Our regular arms warrior gets maybe to 1400 , more like 1200 on this fight, but its because of TC spam etc. Hes basically a debuff bot, and plays a crucial role (imp TC is necessary and while i could do it, its also much larger dps decrease to fury to switch stances, imp demo lets us use recklessness which is another 6% or so physical dps. So in short he provides around 10% physical dps, and imp TC at cost of "half a dps slot"). Its crucial enough that given his absence on todays kill, we brought our prot warrior respecced to arms in like half kara gear. He did 900 dps over the fight, but the 10% physical dmg with 4 rogues 2 hunters 1 dps warrior and 1 enh shaman in raid (averaging 2k dps per person), made it well worth it.
Edited onPatch 2.4.1
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Originally Posted by Graul
I would have to do 1835 damage on that fight as Arms for it to equal what I do as Fury. That's not even an advantage, that's just breaking even.
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Edit:
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Originally Posted by Shha
imp TC is necessary and while i could do it, its also much larger dps decrease to fury to switch stances
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Fury rage gain is much more constant, while an Arms warrior gets rage in 3sec intervals and could use Slam to great effect.Last edited by Amorpheus : 04/04/08 at 7:30 AM.
And you lose imp zerker to do that as well. In general our arms warrior just stays in battle stance. 3% crit loss, and varied WW dmg loss (You can argue that its 150-200 from the WW dmg lost, but remember that with 2h rotation you DO have rage problems, and that 25 rage often can be spent on slam or something you otherwise wouldnt do). Either way , i dont think its really that important. Bottom line is, BF is important enough to bring someone in kara gear just as debuff bot for brutallus.
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Originally Posted by Drwal
I wouldn't be surprised at all if you could Heroic Strike WF procs. There are many bugs in this game concerning many events happening in the same time: flurry bug with same speed weapons; reflecting all spells cast on you with less than ~0.5sec interval; etc
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Originally Posted by Shha
Wisdom is at fault.
Haste = best stat for BT geared fury warrior. Imo for MS too, but thats personal preference with rotation. Haste only has bad connotation, because its found on HORRIBLY itemized items. Haste as stat = amazing, Haste items from BT = crap. Bludgeon is one of the exceptions - haste item with good item budgeting. |
I've been looking through the WWS reports for some Brutallus-poven warriors. Somehow it seems you must be a 2h warrior to get an invite to this fight. The only DW-warriors I've found had 2x warglaives, that is out of reach for most of us.
Is it really that important to have the blood frenzy debuff on the boss this time? I might have to equip my 2h-set then and pratices the slam rotation.
Is it really that important to have the blood frenzy debuff on the boss this time? I might have to equip my 2h-set then and pratices the slam rotation.
Edited onPatch 2.4.0
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Originally Posted by DKP-Borgar
I've been looking through the WWS reports for some Brutallus-poven warriors. Somehow it seems you must be a 2h warrior to get an invite to this fight. The only DW-warriors I've found had 2x warglaives, that is out of reach for most of us.
Is it really that important to have the blood frenzy debuff on the boss this time? I might have to equip my 2h-set then and pratices the slam rotation. |
The difference between the gear choices for a fury warrior and an arms / slam warrior is marginal. As long as your guild has not been short sighted in the benefits you may bring using two 1-handers or a 2-handed weapon, respeccing should not be an issue (perhaps inexperience using slam may be...).
Just because a lot of the WWS parses show slamming blood frenzy warriors in them does not preclude using a fury warrior to successfully execute the encounter but it *may* not be as raid efficient.
Last edited by Cavein : 03/31/08 at 7:54 AM.
I have a question about armor ignore in sunwell. Having just beat Kalecgos encounter, we are now facing Brut. What kind of arp should I be aiming for? My current set gives me 1700, but my crit is lowish, at 31.3%. Should i switch in two items, lowering armor ignore to 1469 but upping crit to 33.6%? Part of the question I guess would be, is there an "armor ignore cap" for Brut? I heard he has insane armor, how much is needed, assuming FF, sunderx5 and CoR?
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Originally Posted by Kupeludo
I have a question about armor ignore in sunwell. Having just beat Kalecgos encounter, we are now facing Brut. What kind of arp should I be aiming for? My current set gives me 1700, but my crit is lowish, at 31.3%. Should i switch in two items, lowering armor ignore to 1469 but upping crit to 33.6%? Part of the question I guess would be, is there an "armor ignore cap" for Brut? I heard he has insane armor, how much is needed, assuming FF, sunderx5 and CoR?
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Originally Posted by Kupeludo
I have a question about armor ignore in sunwell. Having just beat Kalecgos encounter, we are now facing Brut. What kind of arp should I be aiming for? My current set gives me 1700, but my crit is lowish, at 31.3%. Should i switch in two items, lowering armor ignore to 1469 but upping crit to 33.6%? Part of the question I guess would be, is there an "armor ignore cap" for Brut? I heard he has insane armor, how much is needed, assuming FF, sunderx5 and CoR?
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Talking about the future of DPS warrior in general, I haven't been fury for quite a long time. By looking at some WWS, I can see that a lot of guilds use Arms Warrior for the "warrior slot". Is fury still viable? I mean, can a fury warrior outdps a T6 rogue, a T6 hunter?
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Originally Posted by Gograh
Talking about the future of DPS warrior in general, I haven't been fury for quite a long time. By looking at some WWS, I can see that a lot of guilds use Arms Warrior for the "warrior slot". Is fury still viable? I mean, can a fury warrior outdps a T6 rogue, a T6 hunter?
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And yes I'd say fury is still viable in sunwell.
Ok I see. I'm thinking about purchasing the arena s03 2.6 speed axe set to go fury. Can't stand being arms anymore, having to do backflips to get some crappy dps, watching that swing bar. (I have nightmares with the swing bar, I wake up in the middle of the night crying)
back to fury, what about aggro issues? Our fury warrior (in ssc-tk-hyjal-bt) had to auto-attack or even stop hitting the boss regularly because of aggro issues. Is it still like that? (was there any change regarding this?)
back to fury, what about aggro issues? Our fury warrior (in ssc-tk-hyjal-bt) had to auto-attack or even stop hitting the boss regularly because of aggro issues. Is it still like that? (was there any change regarding this?)
My experience with fury is that with a good tank, you don't have aggro issues on most fights. Obvious exceptions include warglaives, etc.
In fact, having gone back and forth between Arms and Fury, I find that the aggro reduction from fury talents can be quite noticeable.
In fact, having gone back and forth between Arms and Fury, I find that the aggro reduction from fury talents can be quite noticeable.
We are busy wiping on Brut atm and with a 4% enrage wipe being our best try (a lock went down first) with 2 Fury warriors in raid, I'd say they are still very viable for Sunwell.
I calculated how much extra dps either myself (dual glaives) or my fellow fury warrior (1 glaive) would make up by going amrs and due to a setup with not much pyhsical dps, its barely worth it.
Then take into account that blood frenzy isnt always up and can lapse for split seconds... We are sticking with Fury for the kill tonight.
I calculated how much extra dps either myself (dual glaives) or my fellow fury warrior (1 glaive) would make up by going amrs and due to a setup with not much pyhsical dps, its barely worth it.
Then take into account that blood frenzy isnt always up and can lapse for split seconds... We are sticking with Fury for the kill tonight.
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Originally Posted by Halle
We are busy wiping on Brut atm and with a 4% enrage wipe being our best try (a lock went down first) with 2 Fury warriors in raid, I'd say they are still very viable for Sunwell.
I calculated how much extra dps either myself (dual glaives) or my fellow fury warrior (1 glaive) would make up by going amrs and due to a setup with not much pyhsical dps, its barely worth it. Then take into account that blood frenzy isnt always up and can lapse for split seconds... We are sticking with Fury for the kill tonight. |
Arms or Fury doesn't really matter that much, if you play good and get the maximum out of your char. I was Fury, my DPS were bad and we still killed him
.I killed Brutallus as Arms. crappy dps, normally I could only outdps the shadow priest.. sometimes the ret pally rarely the enhancement shaman. If my fury dps (no warglaives, over 6 months killing illidan we got 4 offhands, no main hand) can make up for the loss of blood frenzy (plus crappy dps) I'd love to see the swing bar vanishing from my face.
Arms does close enough to Fury damage by itself. The problem is when people spec Arms just because it is technically the highest Warrior RDPS spec without considering other factors. How many phyiscal damage dealers do you bring? Do they always flask, food buff, drum, stone, poison etc for every fight or is simply beating something enough for some of them? Given equal mindsets and close to equal ability, Arms is going to pull ahead, but the difference seems a bit overblown most of the time to me. Under the most opitmal conditions and with the most bleeding edge guilds Blood Frenzy would add close to 500 RPDS, more if they are very melee heavy. From the WWS that I've seen from "regular" guilds as well as my own, it's closer to 350 RDPS. My gear isn't completely optimized for a 2h, but it plays well enough with a CE, and maybe I'm just horrible with Arms, but every single time I've played 33/28 on a raid the overall difference in RDPS is usually around plus or minus 30 difference from what I do as Fury, and that's with no deaths. If even one physical damage dealer dies and can't get a battle rez, my whole reason for even speccing Arms is down the drain.
Wow Web Stats
I would have to do 1835 damage on that fight as Arms for it to equal what I do as Fury. That's not even an advantage, that's just breaking even. Not an impossible number to reach either, but if it's not going to play a decisive factor, you should play whichever spec you enjoy more on raids as a Warrior.
Wow Web Stats
I would have to do 1835 damage on that fight as Arms for it to equal what I do as Fury. That's not even an advantage, that's just breaking even. Not an impossible number to reach either, but if it's not going to play a decisive factor, you should play whichever spec you enjoy more on raids as a Warrior.
I think I'm starting to go crazy or just have some really strange delusions, wanted to make sure I wasn't off my rocker. Done about 18 attempts on Really High Armor Boss in Sunwell (RHABiS) last night and for some reason my 17/44 DPS was in the shithouse the entire time. I respecced 33/28 after 8 of them and my DPS not only went up (by something around 1-200) but the contribution was along the lines of 510 DPS (see this) nudged me into 6th instead of the 13-15 I'd been hovering at the entire time as Fury. My gear stays basically the same between the two with a [Dragonstrike] and a [Warglaive of Azzinoth] instead of the [Cataclysm's Edge]. I've been wracking my mind trying to figure out why the hell this is happening, but haven't figured anything out.
Elixir of Demonslaying shows up from attempts 9 and up. I can't tell if you were flasked before or not, but if not, that's a decent difference in AP.
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Originally Posted by Graul
Elixir of Demonslaying shows up from attempts 9 and up. I can't tell if you were flasked before or not, but if not, that's a decent difference in AP.
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I've been going over a few threads digging up some information, but most of it seems to be a bit outdated, while on paper season 3 1h'ers seem to outperform Dragonstrike, I was wondering how Dragonstrike actually compares (with the current haste values) since I'm considering going to it over S3 MH.
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Originally Posted by shed
I've been going over a few threads digging up some information, but most of it seems to be a bit outdated, while on paper season 3 1h'ers seem to outperform Dragonstrike, I was wondering how Dragonstrike actually compares (with the current haste values) since I'm considering going to it over S3 MH.
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Originally Posted by Kaan
For me (at least) Dragonstrike slightly delivers more DPS than a S3 sword, this is true in both, Grims / Allcoms and landsoul's sheets. However, the difference is at most 3 DPS. With "outdatet" you mean the haste-value that remains unresolved?
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I just finished crafting it myself and will do my own testing, but I think it will provide more overall DPS.
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Originally Posted by DKP-Borgar
I've been looking through the WWS reports for some Brutallus-poven warriors. Somehow it seems you must be a 2h warrior to get an invite to this fight. The only DW-warriors I've found had 2x warglaives, that is out of reach for most of us.
Is it really that important to have the blood frenzy debuff on the boss this time? I might have to equip my 2h-set then and pratices the slam rotation. |
However BF debuff IS a big thing and basically our arms warrior is a dps bot. We use 2 ferals for tanking, so his job is to keep imp demo, imp clap, blood frenzy etc. Our regular arms warrior gets maybe to 1400 , more like 1200 on this fight, but its because of TC spam etc. Hes basically a debuff bot, and plays a crucial role (imp TC is necessary and while i could do it, its also much larger dps decrease to fury to switch stances, imp demo lets us use recklessness which is another 6% or so physical dps. So in short he provides around 10% physical dps, and imp TC at cost of "half a dps slot"). Its crucial enough that given his absence on todays kill, we brought our prot warrior respecced to arms in like half kara gear. He did 900 dps over the fight, but the 10% physical dmg with 4 rogues 2 hunters 1 dps warrior and 1 enh shaman in raid (averaging 2k dps per person), made it well worth it.
Edited onPatch 2.4.1
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Originally Posted by Graul
I would have to do 1835 damage on that fight as Arms for it to equal what I do as Fury. That's not even an advantage, that's just breaking even.
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Edit:
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Originally Posted by Shha
imp TC is necessary and while i could do it, its also much larger dps decrease to fury to switch stances
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Fury rage gain is much more constant, while an Arms warrior gets rage in 3sec intervals and could use Slam to great effect.Last edited by Amorpheus : 04/04/08 at 7:30 AM.
And you lose imp zerker to do that as well. In general our arms warrior just stays in battle stance. 3% crit loss, and varied WW dmg loss (You can argue that its 150-200 from the WW dmg lost, but remember that with 2h rotation you DO have rage problems, and that 25 rage often can be spent on slam or something you otherwise wouldnt do). Either way , i dont think its really that important. Bottom line is, BF is important enough to bring someone in kara gear just as debuff bot for brutallus.
| However BF debuff IS a big thing and basically our arms warrior is a dps bot. We use 2 ferals for tanking, so his job is to keep imp demo, imp clap, blood frenzy etc. Our regular arms warrior gets maybe to 1400 , more like 1200 on this fight, but its because of TC spam etc. Hes basically a debuff bot, and plays a crucial role (imp TC is necessary and while i could do it, its also much larger dps decrease to fury to switch stances, imp demo lets us use recklessness which is another 6% or so physical dps. So in short he provides around 10% physical dps, and imp TC at cost of "half a dps slot"). Its crucial enough that given his absence on todays kill, we brought our prot warrior respecced to arms in like half kara gear. He did 900 dps over the fight, but the 10% physical dmg with 4 rogues 2 hunters 1 dps warrior and 1 enh shaman in raid (averaging 2k dps per person), made it well worth it. |
Edited onPatch 2.4.1
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Originally Posted by Shha
Bottom line is, BF is important enough to bring someone in kara gear just as debuff bot for brutallus.
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With regards to a 'atypical' raid setup where the fury outdps'es rogues- short of falling into an arcane mage fallacy- I would concur that an aggressively played fury can hang with rogues on many fights.
Wow Web Stats
The rogue in 2nd is Mutilate, however if you compare my gear and his, he owns me by a landslide. Also to note: Recklessness was used on our 1% wipe, so the value I put out on the kill is 100% sustained dps.
Edit: How many times have warriors been nerfed expressly because they were found to 'outdps rogues during internal testing'? With gear, historically speaking based on this game's mechanics, a fury will go toe to toe with a rogue.
Last edited by Mjollnir : 04/04/08 at 9:22 AM.
Well gains are :
Druids are easier to heal for us. I dont want to debate which is ultimately better its not the thread for it, but basically we have better results. Thats probably the winner in any case for this fight
Raid dps benefits
2nd feral to boost a group with 5% crit while the prot warrior would be somehow useless and actually require a paladin etc ruining some group synergies we have.
Imp expose. It can really be kept up at minimal cost by a rogue (it so happens we have one mutilate rogue - well at least for the kill, although we arent sure if he shouldnt go back to combat). Anyway disregarding rogue specs etc. Imp expose is basically "another sunder application" buffing raid physical damage by around 4% again. Anyway Since the rogue has all the important finishers up anyway, keeping expose costs him maybe 3k damage every 30 seconds. 100 dps is nothing to frown at, but 4% raid damage is worth it.
Tank has problems keeping everything up, although i guess he could keep Tclap.
2 Druids = 2 innervates/battle reses , we even had some small problems healing hunters from slashes (group composition was at fault) - our feral tanks solved it by tossing them a rejuv as soon as they shifted off bear before going cat.
Cat dps > prot tank dps.
Btw i did 2200 dps on that fight, so 1840 is actually not more then a fury warrior. However if you use 2 feral tanks, then he provides the ability to use curse of recklessness, which is another 960 raid dps.
Also to answer some questions. Its a dire reality, that you dont always have what you want
. Someone could say "You should respec arms yourself do the 1200-1400 dps yourself (thats a loss of 800-1000 dps), and replace the standin with someone doing 1900+ dps". True. Except we dont have anyone "spare" doing 1900 dps, so we do fights with what we have.
Druids are easier to heal for us. I dont want to debate which is ultimately better its not the thread for it, but basically we have better results. Thats probably the winner in any case for this fight
Raid dps benefits
2nd feral to boost a group with 5% crit while the prot warrior would be somehow useless and actually require a paladin etc ruining some group synergies we have.
Imp expose. It can really be kept up at minimal cost by a rogue (it so happens we have one mutilate rogue - well at least for the kill, although we arent sure if he shouldnt go back to combat). Anyway disregarding rogue specs etc. Imp expose is basically "another sunder application" buffing raid physical damage by around 4% again. Anyway Since the rogue has all the important finishers up anyway, keeping expose costs him maybe 3k damage every 30 seconds. 100 dps is nothing to frown at, but 4% raid damage is worth it.
Tank has problems keeping everything up, although i guess he could keep Tclap.
2 Druids = 2 innervates/battle reses , we even had some small problems healing hunters from slashes (group composition was at fault) - our feral tanks solved it by tossing them a rejuv as soon as they shifted off bear before going cat.
Cat dps > prot tank dps.
Btw i did 2200 dps on that fight, so 1840 is actually not more then a fury warrior. However if you use 2 feral tanks, then he provides the ability to use curse of recklessness, which is another 960 raid dps.
Also to answer some questions. Its a dire reality, that you dont always have what you want
. Someone could say "You should respec arms yourself do the 1200-1400 dps yourself (thats a loss of 800-1000 dps), and replace the standin with someone doing 1900+ dps". True. Except we dont have anyone "spare" doing 1900 dps, so we do fights with what we have.I'd like to see a WWS of you doing 2,2k without glaives, because I doubt it 
.
I did almost 1,6k with a 2h and we killed him just in time. The DW warrior in my group did 200 more.
.I did almost 1,6k with a 2h and we killed him just in time. The DW warrior in my group did 200 more.
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Originally Posted by WernerVonBraun
I'd like to see a WWS of you doing 2,2k without glaives, because I doubt it
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It still amazes me Natural was putting up 2k dps in fury gear as prot spec, but that's another topic.
Edited onPatch 2.4.1
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Originally Posted by WernerVonBraun
I'd like to see a WWS of you doing 2,2k without glaives, because I doubt it
.I did almost 1,6k with a 2h and we killed him just in time. The DW warrior in my group did 200 more. |
Improved faerie fire
Improved expose armor
Curse of Recklessness
Leader of the Pack
Scrolls of Agility and Strength
Elixirs of Demon slaying on demons
Expose weakness
Improved Hunter's mark
Windfury with Grace of Air twisting
Unleashed rage
Boss with low armor values
Steady damage intake
In such conditions, you can basically not worry about rage and this is where we catch up to rogues. Threat does become an issue however. Based on the latest spreadsheets, theoretical max dps with current possible gear is roughly 3400 dps. This means that you need to find a tank to hold roughly 1700 TPS. I haven't looked up recent TPS spreadsheets, but I remember tanks not being very scalable TPS wise while maintaining the scaling survivability required.
Last edited by Kaoz : 04/04/08 at 10:41 AM.
Edit: Oh, I replied from something on the bottom of the last page 
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Originally Posted by Kaoz
It's much more about consumables and group stacking than Warglaives. Fury warriors tend to scale insanely well with perfect conditions.
Improved faerie fire Improved expose armor Curse of Recklessness Leader of the Pack Scrolls of Agility and Strength Elixirs of Demon slaying on demons Expose weakness Improved Hunter's mark Windfury with Grace of Air twisting Unleashed rage Boss with low armor values Steady damage intake In such conditions, you can basically not worry about rage and this is where we catch up to rogues. Threat does become an issue however. Based on the latest spreadsheets, theoretical max dps with current possible gear is roughly 3400 dps. This means that you need to find a tank to hold roughly 1700 TPS. I haven't looked up recent TPS spreadsheets, but I remember tanks not being very scalable TPS wise while maintaining the scaling survivability required. |
Improved faerie fire +
Improved expose armor -
Curse of Recklessness -
Leader of the Pack +
Scrolls of Agility and Strength +/-
Elixirs of Demon slaying on demons +
Expose weakness -
Improved Hunter's mark -
Windfury with Grace of Air twisting -
Unleashed rage +
Boss with low armor values
Steady damage intake
I checked the buffs I normally would be able to use on a given Illidan fight. My raid is very conservative in class setups and had bad luck with enhancer shamans. Normally it's a fury-warrior (me or the other fury) and 3 rogue + heal shaman. Nobody does use drums, we have no retpala and hunters are bm.
Actually it's said but I can't even say how much dmg I would be able to push, because we run mediocre melee group setups. We use a lot of casters (4-5 mages) and warlocks with 1 shadow priest.
landsoul sheet's puts me at ~1550 DPS with my usual raidbuffs (no enhanced totems or other goodies) but I have yet to see come close to that. I had 1600 dps at Teron once, but it was in early february and I have gotten 3 upgrades since then. It's sad but I feel gimped by our rogue's and our conservative raid setups (no ret, no enhancer, survival hunter or 2h warrior - well I could do it but I lack the right gear, although I got Cataclysm's Edge).
We haven't beaten Kal yet, but we only had 3 trys until this weekend (farming BT is a prioity). Brutallus might be an interesting min/max fight, that could alter some play-styles in my raid.
Improved expose armor -
Curse of Recklessness -
Leader of the Pack +
Scrolls of Agility and Strength +/-
Elixirs of Demon slaying on demons +
Expose weakness -
Improved Hunter's mark -
Windfury with Grace of Air twisting -
Unleashed rage +
Boss with low armor values
Steady damage intake
I checked the buffs I normally would be able to use on a given Illidan fight. My raid is very conservative in class setups and had bad luck with enhancer shamans. Normally it's a fury-warrior (me or the other fury) and 3 rogue + heal shaman. Nobody does use drums, we have no retpala and hunters are bm.
Actually it's said but I can't even say how much dmg I would be able to push, because we run mediocre melee group setups. We use a lot of casters (4-5 mages) and warlocks with 1 shadow priest.
landsoul sheet's puts me at ~1550 DPS with my usual raidbuffs (no enhanced totems or other goodies) but I have yet to see come close to that. I had 1600 dps at Teron once, but it was in early february and I have gotten 3 upgrades since then. It's sad but I feel gimped by our rogue's and our conservative raid setups (no ret, no enhancer, survival hunter or 2h warrior - well I could do it but I lack the right gear, although I got Cataclysm's Edge).
We haven't beaten Kal yet, but we only had 3 trys until this weekend (farming BT is a prioity). Brutallus might be an interesting min/max fight, that could alter some play-styles in my raid.
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Originally Posted by DKP-Borgar
(no ret, no enhancer, survival hunter or 2h warrior - well I could do it but I lack the right gear, although I got Cataclysm's Edge).
We haven't beaten Kal yet, but we only had 3 trys until this weekend (farming BT is a prioity). Brutallus might be an interesting min/max fight, that could alter some play-styles in my raid. |
I'm curious, though, how you "lack the right gear," but you have fury gear + CE? Surely, you can take your hit rating down towards 9%?
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Originally Posted by Shha
Bottom line is, BF is important enough to bring someone in kara gear just as debuff bot for brutallus.
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Though I would have to agree that if you have a good weapon, its hard not to have arms gear if you have fury gear unless you gemmed for hit or something.
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Originally Posted by Machinator
Though I would have to agree that if you have a good weapon, its hard not to have arms gear if you have fury gear unless you gemmed for hit or something.
|
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Originally Posted by Mjollnir
There are an abundance of parses with DW furies pushing 2k and higher... from months ago with dated gear. Without glaives? Check.
It still amazes me Natural was putting up 2k dps in fury gear as prot spec, but that's another topic. |
As much as I enjoy DPS I am finding myself tanking in early Sunwell encounters. An arms warrior is clearly more valuable for the entire raid and as the raid leader I don't have the bandwidth to focus on both leading and swing timers. We have three amazing rogues so it's pretty difficult to spec for damage now.
Who's up for some 32/39 in the expansion? Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft
|
Originally Posted by Natural
Who's up for some 32/39 in the expansion? Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft
|
Slam/BT/Slam/MS/etc...
What, you want Demo Shout? pbbt
Something tells me every class will have their talent trees reworked. Somehow I get the feeling having MS+BT was never intended, or they will share the same cd or something.
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Originally Posted by Machinator
If so we can expect BF or arms to get nerfed to hell in expansion I guess. Or the devs see something about warriors that people have missed. That doesnt seem right at all. Thats why they tried to change talents around before, just now you are required to have 32 in arms.
Though I would have to agree that if you have a good weapon, its hard not to have arms gear if you have fury gear unless you gemmed for hit or something. |
|
Keep in mind that log was on a very fast Teron where the duration of bloodlust was statistically a higher percentage of the fight. It was actually closer to 1900. As much as I enjoy DPS I am finding myself tanking in early Sunwell encounters. An arms warrior is clearly more valuable for the entire raid and as the raid leader I don't have the bandwidth to focus on both leading and swing timers. We have three amazing rogues so it's pretty difficult to spec for damage now. Who's up for some 32/39 in the expansion? Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft |
As for your build: WW and MS are about as good already, so it wouldnt be that much different. Remember most likely we get new 50 pointers earlier then extra 10 talents.
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Originally Posted by Shha
As for your build: WW and MS are about as good already, so it wouldnt be that much different. Remember most likely we get new 50 pointers earlier then extra 10 talents.
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I thought when there was a talent bug that gave an extra point people found BT and MS shared a cooldown. I dont know where to find that though so it could just be rumor. Though I think it would be a good idea to give fury a top talent in expansion that scales like another instant or rampage work by %.
The problem I see with debuffs like BF or what shadow priests do is that forces raid composition, which is bad for guilds or servers with limited players. If I lose a mage I can put a warlock or hunter without significant difference. Things like enhancement shaman who affect a group seem easier to balance than something that applies to a whole raid.
The problem I see with debuffs like BF or what shadow priests do is that forces raid composition, which is bad for guilds or servers with limited players. If I lose a mage I can put a warlock or hunter without significant difference. Things like enhancement shaman who affect a group seem easier to balance than something that applies to a whole raid.
Edited onPatch 2.4.1
Edit2: I guess i can use this post to just give my input.
BT and MS sharing cooldown? Never heard about it. In all honesty it might not be as powerful as it sounds as well, the rage requirement is insane. Now everything will depend on the 51 point talents imo, as i said we are gonna see sooner the "51 point trees with 61 talent points" then we are getting 71 points to play around with old ones. All speculations seem really moot atm ;/
BT and MS sharing cooldown? Never heard about it. In all honesty it might not be as powerful as it sounds as well, the rage requirement is insane. Now everything will depend on the 51 point talents imo, as i said we are gonna see sooner the "51 point trees with 61 talent points" then we are getting 71 points to play around with old ones. All speculations seem really moot atm ;/
Last edited by Shha : 04/05/08 at 12:54 AM.
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Originally Posted by Shha
BT and MS sharing cooldown? Never heard about it. In all honesty it might not be as powerful as it sounds as well, the rage requirement is insane.
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A fury of equal gear to a combat rogue will go toe to toe.
To build CPs, the combat is spamming SS, which crits for 2.5k on avg for a raiding rogue. (Zygge from SK on their Brut downing). This happens every 4 seconds not counting CP procs.
Similarly, BT crits for 4k on a raiding fury. This happens every 6 seconds.
This is just meat- the potatoes being rupture and WW respectively but I'm trying to keep it simple.
If you add MS, as it will crit for ~same as BT... This happens every 6 seconds.
Without a shared cooldown you're looking at a raw 16% dmg boost given current talents, current mechanics.
As far as rage requirement... I think we can all agree in a raid scenario there is never any famine of rage inflow. Quite the opposite.
This recent topic however, is 100% speculation on WotLK. We're prolly a couple month ahead of ourselves on this one.
Id say the potatoes are the effects on white damage. Rogues getting 35% SnD (t6 bonus) warriors getting 25% flurry with 90% uptime - 22.5% speed. Rogues getting weapon specs and expertise , warriors negating misses and glances with heroic etc.
But beside that, you say that it increases the damage by 16%. Fine. Id say less - MS with 1h doesnt crit as hard as BT, not even close. You also lose 2 heroics which for me add around 500x2 damage (counting glancing/miss removal) for that rage. So the damage por 6 sec is MS crit (my weapon damage counting BF etc might be around 1100 - so MS hits are like 1410 crits for 3k tops) for 3k-1k of lost heroics. 2k dmg/6 sec = 333 dps . Is it big increase? Sure. But its not overboard by any means. I mean drop the 10 points from fury to go to "prebc" build of 17/34. You lose imp WW/3% hit/10%ap/rampage. I think that would add up to MORR then 333dps. Thats just the power of 10 talent points. Its not different that upgrade from 60->70.
But beside that, you say that it increases the damage by 16%. Fine. Id say less - MS with 1h doesnt crit as hard as BT, not even close. You also lose 2 heroics which for me add around 500x2 damage (counting glancing/miss removal) for that rage. So the damage por 6 sec is MS crit (my weapon damage counting BF etc might be around 1100 - so MS hits are like 1410 crits for 3k tops) for 3k-1k of lost heroics. 2k dmg/6 sec = 333 dps . Is it big increase? Sure. But its not overboard by any means. I mean drop the 10 points from fury to go to "prebc" build of 17/34. You lose imp WW/3% hit/10%ap/rampage. I think that would add up to MORR then 333dps. Thats just the power of 10 talent points. Its not different that upgrade from 60->70.
I guess it wouldn't be a problem to keep up a BT-MS-WW rotation, if they ever implement that. MS still generates rage and counts as special attack as BT. That means getting a HS in from time to time it should still be enough rage. But interesting would be slow vs. fast weapon again maybe. Slow weapons meaning higher MS/HS dmg, while fast main would mean lower MS/HS-dmg but more HS.
I still wouldn't be that bad, but my +hit is more than 9% as I passed on all T6 tokens till now. The only T6 token viable is the shoulder but that has't dropped even with 3 token-drops for quite a while.
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I'm curious, though, how you "lack the right gear," but you have fury gear + CE? Surely, you can take your hit rating down towards 9%? See you, auntie. |
Edited onPatch 2.4.1
@ Shha:
I really didn't put all too much into it, due to it being largely irrelevant at this point in time.
BT is worth about 16% of my dps. Going a 2H fury build, MS is going to match that same number, as BT and MS really are comparable. Even with a DW fury build, MS will still be critting for roughly the same value as a current rogue's SS. As far as heroics etc: I think we can both agree another instant > 2 heroics. And rage in a raid setting is never an issue. You then have between 2 and 3 instants in a 6sec window...
Granted we could then argue the value of Slam in such a setting etc, but like I said, it's pretty much pure speculation about talent [changes] to come.
Edit: Disregard.
I really didn't put all too much into it, due to it being largely irrelevant at this point in time.
BT is worth about 16% of my dps. Going a 2H fury build, MS is going to match that same number, as BT and MS really are comparable. Even with a DW fury build, MS will still be critting for roughly the same value as a current rogue's SS. As far as heroics etc: I think we can both agree another instant > 2 heroics. And rage in a raid setting is never an issue. You then have between 2 and 3 instants in a 6sec window...
Granted we could then argue the value of Slam in such a setting etc, but like I said, it's pretty much pure speculation about talent [changes] to come.
Edit: Disregard.
Last edited by Mjollnir : 04/05/08 at 11:18 AM.
need some help
Gday im new to fury guild is working on closing out the T4 instances got most of my gear from ah or drops no one needed while i was tanking.. that being said i think i have OK fury gear and am now making the switch to full time fury and im looking for some tips. i realize that my gems are off on gear that i plan on replacing over the course of the next 2 weeks(T4 gloves and shoulders nin'jas badge boots or vindicators then upgrade to badge pants and pvp gems)oo and i just bought the[Relentless Earthstorm Diamond] but im trying to decide if its worth keeping eng just for goggles and repair bot. im also a forum noob TYVM
TYVM|
Originally Posted by nforcer
Gday im new to fury guild is working on closing out the T4 instances got most of my gear from ah or drops no one needed while i was tanking.. that being said i think i have OK fury gear and am now making the switch to full time fury and im looking for some tips. i realize that my gems are off on gear that i plan on replacing over the course of the next 2 weeks(T4 gloves and shoulders nin'jas badge boots or vindicators then upgrade to badge pants and pvp gems)oo and i just bought the[Relentless Earthstorm Diamond] but im trying to decide if its worth keeping eng just for goggles and repair bot. im also a forum noob
TYVM |
Also, check your grammar and sentence building, you will likely get reported if you don't edit your post.
| However BF debuff IS a big thing and basically our arms warrior is a dps bot. We use 2 ferals for tanking, so his job is to keep imp demo, imp clap, blood frenzy etc. Our regular arms warrior gets maybe to 1400 , more like 1200 on this fight, but its because of TC spam etc. Hes basically a debuff bot, and plays a crucial role (imp TC is necessary and while i could do it, its also much larger dps decrease to fury to switch stances, imp demo lets us use recklessness which is another 6% or so physical dps. So in short he provides around 10% physical dps, and imp TC at cost of "half a dps slot"). Its crucial enough that given his absence on todays kill, we brought our prot warrior respecced to arms in like half kara gear. He did 900 dps over the fight, but the 10% physical dmg with 4 rogues 2 hunters 1 dps warrior and 1 enh shaman in raid (averaging 2k dps per person), made it well worth it. |
Edited onPatch 2.4.1
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Originally Posted by Shha
Bottom line is, BF is important enough to bring someone in kara gear just as debuff bot for brutallus.
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With regards to a 'atypical' raid setup where the fury outdps'es rogues- short of falling into an arcane mage fallacy- I would concur that an aggressively played fury can hang with rogues on many fights.
Wow Web Stats
The rogue in 2nd is Mutilate, however if you compare my gear and his, he owns me by a landslide. Also to note: Recklessness was used on our 1% wipe, so the value I put out on the kill is 100% sustained dps.
Edit: How many times have warriors been nerfed expressly because they were found to 'outdps rogues during internal testing'? With gear, historically speaking based on this game's mechanics, a fury will go toe to toe with a rogue.
Last edited by Mjollnir : 04/04/08 at 9:22 AM.
Well gains are :
Druids are easier to heal for us. I dont want to debate which is ultimately better its not the thread for it, but basically we have better results. Thats probably the winner in any case for this fight
Raid dps benefits
2nd feral to boost a group with 5% crit while the prot warrior would be somehow useless and actually require a paladin etc ruining some group synergies we have.
Imp expose. It can really be kept up at minimal cost by a rogue (it so happens we have one mutilate rogue - well at least for the kill, although we arent sure if he shouldnt go back to combat). Anyway disregarding rogue specs etc. Imp expose is basically "another sunder application" buffing raid physical damage by around 4% again. Anyway Since the rogue has all the important finishers up anyway, keeping expose costs him maybe 3k damage every 30 seconds. 100 dps is nothing to frown at, but 4% raid damage is worth it.
Tank has problems keeping everything up, although i guess he could keep Tclap.
2 Druids = 2 innervates/battle reses , we even had some small problems healing hunters from slashes (group composition was at fault) - our feral tanks solved it by tossing them a rejuv as soon as they shifted off bear before going cat.
Cat dps > prot tank dps.
Btw i did 2200 dps on that fight, so 1840 is actually not more then a fury warrior. However if you use 2 feral tanks, then he provides the ability to use curse of recklessness, which is another 960 raid dps.
Also to answer some questions. Its a dire reality, that you dont always have what you want. Someone could say "You should respec arms yourself do the 1200-1400 dps yourself (thats a loss of 800-1000 dps), and replace the standin with someone doing 1900+ dps". True. Except we dont have anyone "spare" doing 1900 dps, so we do fights with what we have.
Druids are easier to heal for us. I dont want to debate which is ultimately better its not the thread for it, but basically we have better results. Thats probably the winner in any case for this fight
Raid dps benefits
2nd feral to boost a group with 5% crit while the prot warrior would be somehow useless and actually require a paladin etc ruining some group synergies we have.
Imp expose. It can really be kept up at minimal cost by a rogue (it so happens we have one mutilate rogue - well at least for the kill, although we arent sure if he shouldnt go back to combat). Anyway disregarding rogue specs etc. Imp expose is basically "another sunder application" buffing raid physical damage by around 4% again. Anyway Since the rogue has all the important finishers up anyway, keeping expose costs him maybe 3k damage every 30 seconds. 100 dps is nothing to frown at, but 4% raid damage is worth it.
Tank has problems keeping everything up, although i guess he could keep Tclap.
2 Druids = 2 innervates/battle reses , we even had some small problems healing hunters from slashes (group composition was at fault) - our feral tanks solved it by tossing them a rejuv as soon as they shifted off bear before going cat.
Cat dps > prot tank dps.
Btw i did 2200 dps on that fight, so 1840 is actually not more then a fury warrior. However if you use 2 feral tanks, then he provides the ability to use curse of recklessness, which is another 960 raid dps.
Also to answer some questions. Its a dire reality, that you dont always have what you want
. Someone could say "You should respec arms yourself do the 1200-1400 dps yourself (thats a loss of 800-1000 dps), and replace the standin with someone doing 1900+ dps". True. Except we dont have anyone "spare" doing 1900 dps, so we do fights with what we have.I'd like to see a WWS of you doing 2,2k without glaives, because I doubt it .
I did almost 1,6k with a 2h and we killed him just in time. The DW warrior in my group did 200 more.
.I did almost 1,6k with a 2h and we killed him just in time. The DW warrior in my group did 200 more.
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Originally Posted by WernerVonBraun
I'd like to see a WWS of you doing 2,2k without glaives, because I doubt it
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It still amazes me Natural was putting up 2k dps in fury gear as prot spec, but that's another topic.
Edited onPatch 2.4.1
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Originally Posted by WernerVonBraun
I'd like to see a WWS of you doing 2,2k without glaives, because I doubt it
.I did almost 1,6k with a 2h and we killed him just in time. The DW warrior in my group did 200 more. |
Improved faerie fire
Improved expose armor
Curse of Recklessness
Leader of the Pack
Scrolls of Agility and Strength
Elixirs of Demon slaying on demons
Expose weakness
Improved Hunter's mark
Windfury with Grace of Air twisting
Unleashed rage
Boss with low armor values
Steady damage intake
In such conditions, you can basically not worry about rage and this is where we catch up to rogues. Threat does become an issue however. Based on the latest spreadsheets, theoretical max dps with current possible gear is roughly 3400 dps. This means that you need to find a tank to hold roughly 1700 TPS. I haven't looked up recent TPS spreadsheets, but I remember tanks not being very scalable TPS wise while maintaining the scaling survivability required.
Last edited by Kaoz : 04/04/08 at 10:41 AM.
Edit: Oh, I replied from something on the bottom of the last page
|
Originally Posted by Kaoz
It's much more about consumables and group stacking than Warglaives. Fury warriors tend to scale insanely well with perfect conditions.
Improved faerie fire Improved expose armor Curse of Recklessness Leader of the Pack Scrolls of Agility and Strength Elixirs of Demon slaying on demons Expose weakness Improved Hunter's mark Windfury with Grace of Air twisting Unleashed rage Boss with low armor values Steady damage intake In such conditions, you can basically not worry about rage and this is where we catch up to rogues. Threat does become an issue however. Based on the latest spreadsheets, theoretical max dps with current possible gear is roughly 3400 dps. This means that you need to find a tank to hold roughly 1700 TPS. I haven't looked up recent TPS spreadsheets, but I remember tanks not being very scalable TPS wise while maintaining the scaling survivability required. |
Improved faerie fire +
Improved expose armor -
Curse of Recklessness -
Leader of the Pack +
Scrolls of Agility and Strength +/-
Elixirs of Demon slaying on demons +
Expose weakness -
Improved Hunter's mark -
Windfury with Grace of Air twisting -
Unleashed rage +
Boss with low armor values
Steady damage intake
I checked the buffs I normally would be able to use on a given Illidan fight. My raid is very conservative in class setups and had bad luck with enhancer shamans. Normally it's a fury-warrior (me or the other fury) and 3 rogue + heal shaman. Nobody does use drums, we have no retpala and hunters are bm.
Actually it's said but I can't even say how much dmg I would be able to push, because we run mediocre melee group setups. We use a lot of casters (4-5 mages) and warlocks with 1 shadow priest.
landsoul sheet's puts me at ~1550 DPS with my usual raidbuffs (no enhanced totems or other goodies) but I have yet to see come close to that. I had 1600 dps at Teron once, but it was in early february and I have gotten 3 upgrades since then. It's sad but I feel gimped by our rogue's and our conservative raid setups (no ret, no enhancer, survival hunter or 2h warrior - well I could do it but I lack the right gear, although I got Cataclysm's Edge).
We haven't beaten Kal yet, but we only had 3 trys until this weekend (farming BT is a prioity). Brutallus might be an interesting min/max fight, that could alter some play-styles in my raid.
Improved expose armor -
Curse of Recklessness -
Leader of the Pack +
Scrolls of Agility and Strength +/-
Elixirs of Demon slaying on demons +
Expose weakness -
Improved Hunter's mark -
Windfury with Grace of Air twisting -
Unleashed rage +
Boss with low armor values
Steady damage intake
I checked the buffs I normally would be able to use on a given Illidan fight. My raid is very conservative in class setups and had bad luck with enhancer shamans. Normally it's a fury-warrior (me or the other fury) and 3 rogue + heal shaman. Nobody does use drums, we have no retpala and hunters are bm.
Actually it's said but I can't even say how much dmg I would be able to push, because we run mediocre melee group setups. We use a lot of casters (4-5 mages) and warlocks with 1 shadow priest.
landsoul sheet's puts me at ~1550 DPS with my usual raidbuffs (no enhanced totems or other goodies) but I have yet to see come close to that. I had 1600 dps at Teron once, but it was in early february and I have gotten 3 upgrades since then. It's sad but I feel gimped by our rogue's and our conservative raid setups (no ret, no enhancer, survival hunter or 2h warrior - well I could do it but I lack the right gear, although I got Cataclysm's Edge).
We haven't beaten Kal yet, but we only had 3 trys until this weekend (farming BT is a prioity). Brutallus might be an interesting min/max fight, that could alter some play-styles in my raid.
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Originally Posted by DKP-Borgar
(no ret, no enhancer, survival hunter or 2h warrior - well I could do it but I lack the right gear, although I got Cataclysm's Edge).
We haven't beaten Kal yet, but we only had 3 trys until this weekend (farming BT is a prioity). Brutallus might be an interesting min/max fight, that could alter some play-styles in my raid. |
I'm curious, though, how you "lack the right gear," but you have fury gear + CE? Surely, you can take your hit rating down towards 9%?
|
Originally Posted by Shha
Bottom line is, BF is important enough to bring someone in kara gear just as debuff bot for brutallus.
|
Though I would have to agree that if you have a good weapon, its hard not to have arms gear if you have fury gear unless you gemmed for hit or something.
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Originally Posted by Machinator
Though I would have to agree that if you have a good weapon, its hard not to have arms gear if you have fury gear unless you gemmed for hit or something.
|
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Originally Posted by Mjollnir
There are an abundance of parses with DW furies pushing 2k and higher... from months ago with dated gear. Without glaives? Check.
It still amazes me Natural was putting up 2k dps in fury gear as prot spec, but that's another topic. |
As much as I enjoy DPS I am finding myself tanking in early Sunwell encounters. An arms warrior is clearly more valuable for the entire raid and as the raid leader I don't have the bandwidth to focus on both leading and swing timers. We have three amazing rogues so it's pretty difficult to spec for damage now.
Who's up for some 32/39 in the expansion? Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft
|
Originally Posted by Natural
Who's up for some 32/39 in the expansion? Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft
|
Slam/BT/Slam/MS/etc...
What, you want Demo Shout? pbbt
Something tells me every class will have their talent trees reworked. Somehow I get the feeling having MS+BT was never intended, or they will share the same cd or something.
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Originally Posted by Machinator
If so we can expect BF or arms to get nerfed to hell in expansion I guess. Or the devs see something about warriors that people have missed. That doesnt seem right at all. Thats why they tried to change talents around before, just now you are required to have 32 in arms.
Though I would have to agree that if you have a good weapon, its hard not to have arms gear if you have fury gear unless you gemmed for hit or something. |
|
Keep in mind that log was on a very fast Teron where the duration of bloodlust was statistically a higher percentage of the fight. It was actually closer to 1900. As much as I enjoy DPS I am finding myself tanking in early Sunwell encounters. An arms warrior is clearly more valuable for the entire raid and as the raid leader I don't have the bandwidth to focus on both leading and swing timers. We have three amazing rogues so it's pretty difficult to spec for damage now. Who's up for some 32/39 in the expansion? Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft |
As for your build: WW and MS are about as good already, so it wouldnt be that much different. Remember most likely we get new 50 pointers earlier then extra 10 talents.
|
Originally Posted by Shha
As for your build: WW and MS are about as good already, so it wouldnt be that much different. Remember most likely we get new 50 pointers earlier then extra 10 talents.
|
I thought when there was a talent bug that gave an extra point people found BT and MS shared a cooldown. I dont know where to find that though so it could just be rumor. Though I think it would be a good idea to give fury a top talent in expansion that scales like another instant or rampage work by %.
The problem I see with debuffs like BF or what shadow priests do is that forces raid composition, which is bad for guilds or servers with limited players. If I lose a mage I can put a warlock or hunter without significant difference. Things like enhancement shaman who affect a group seem easier to balance than something that applies to a whole raid.
The problem I see with debuffs like BF or what shadow priests do is that forces raid composition, which is bad for guilds or servers with limited players. If I lose a mage I can put a warlock or hunter without significant difference. Things like enhancement shaman who affect a group seem easier to balance than something that applies to a whole raid.
Edited onPatch 2.4.1
Edit2: I guess i can use this post to just give my input.
BT and MS sharing cooldown? Never heard about it. In all honesty it might not be as powerful as it sounds as well, the rage requirement is insane. Now everything will depend on the 51 point talents imo, as i said we are gonna see sooner the "51 point trees with 61 talent points" then we are getting 71 points to play around with old ones. All speculations seem really moot atm ;/
BT and MS sharing cooldown? Never heard about it. In all honesty it might not be as powerful as it sounds as well, the rage requirement is insane. Now everything will depend on the 51 point talents imo, as i said we are gonna see sooner the "51 point trees with 61 talent points" then we are getting 71 points to play around with old ones. All speculations seem really moot atm ;/
Last edited by Shha : 04/05/08 at 12:54 AM.
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Originally Posted by Shha
BT and MS sharing cooldown? Never heard about it. In all honesty it might not be as powerful as it sounds as well, the rage requirement is insane.
|
A fury of equal gear to a combat rogue will go toe to toe.
To build CPs, the combat is spamming SS, which crits for 2.5k on avg for a raiding rogue. (Zygge from SK on their Brut downing). This happens every 4 seconds not counting CP procs.
Similarly, BT crits for 4k on a raiding fury. This happens every 6 seconds.
This is just meat- the potatoes being rupture and WW respectively but I'm trying to keep it simple.
If you add MS, as it will crit for ~same as BT... This happens every 6 seconds.
Without a shared cooldown you're looking at a raw 16% dmg boost given current talents, current mechanics.
As far as rage requirement... I think we can all agree in a raid scenario there is never any famine of rage inflow. Quite the opposite.
This recent topic however, is 100% speculation on WotLK. We're prolly a couple month ahead of ourselves on this one.
Id say the potatoes are the effects on white damage. Rogues getting 35% SnD (t6 bonus) warriors getting 25% flurry with 90% uptime - 22.5% speed. Rogues getting weapon specs and expertise , warriors negating misses and glances with heroic etc.
But beside that, you say that it increases the damage by 16%. Fine. Id say less - MS with 1h doesnt crit as hard as BT, not even close. You also lose 2 heroics which for me add around 500x2 damage (counting glancing/miss removal) for that rage. So the damage por 6 sec is MS crit (my weapon damage counting BF etc might be around 1100 - so MS hits are like 1410 crits for 3k tops) for 3k-1k of lost heroics. 2k dmg/6 sec = 333 dps . Is it big increase? Sure. But its not overboard by any means. I mean drop the 10 points from fury to go to "prebc" build of 17/34. You lose imp WW/3% hit/10%ap/rampage. I think that would add up to MORR then 333dps. Thats just the power of 10 talent points. Its not different that upgrade from 60->70.
But beside that, you say that it increases the damage by 16%. Fine. Id say less - MS with 1h doesnt crit as hard as BT, not even close. You also lose 2 heroics which for me add around 500x2 damage (counting glancing/miss removal) for that rage. So the damage por 6 sec is MS crit (my weapon damage counting BF etc might be around 1100 - so MS hits are like 1410 crits for 3k tops) for 3k-1k of lost heroics. 2k dmg/6 sec = 333 dps . Is it big increase? Sure. But its not overboard by any means. I mean drop the 10 points from fury to go to "prebc" build of 17/34. You lose imp WW/3% hit/10%ap/rampage. I think that would add up to MORR then 333dps. Thats just the power of 10 talent points. Its not different that upgrade from 60->70.
I guess it wouldn't be a problem to keep up a BT-MS-WW rotation, if they ever implement that. MS still generates rage and counts as special attack as BT. That means getting a HS in from time to time it should still be enough rage. But interesting would be slow vs. fast weapon again maybe. Slow weapons meaning higher MS/HS dmg, while fast main would mean lower MS/HS-dmg but more HS.
I still wouldn't be that bad, but my +hit is more than 9% as I passed on all T6 tokens till now. The only T6 token viable is the shoulder but that has't dropped even with 3 token-drops for quite a while.
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I'm curious, though, how you "lack the right gear," but you have fury gear + CE? Surely, you can take your hit rating down towards 9%? See you, auntie. |
Edited onPatch 2.4.1
@ Shha:
I really didn't put all too much into it, due to it being largely irrelevant at this point in time.
BT is worth about 16% of my dps. Going a 2H fury build, MS is going to match that same number, as BT and MS really are comparable. Even with a DW fury build, MS will still be critting for roughly the same value as a current rogue's SS. As far as heroics etc: I think we can both agree another instant > 2 heroics. And rage in a raid setting is never an issue. You then have between 2 and 3 instants in a 6sec window...
Granted we could then argue the value of Slam in such a setting etc, but like I said, it's pretty much pure speculation about talent [changes] to come.
Edit: Disregard.
I really didn't put all too much into it, due to it being largely irrelevant at this point in time.
BT is worth about 16% of my dps. Going a 2H fury build, MS is going to match that same number, as BT and MS really are comparable. Even with a DW fury build, MS will still be critting for roughly the same value as a current rogue's SS. As far as heroics etc: I think we can both agree another instant > 2 heroics. And rage in a raid setting is never an issue. You then have between 2 and 3 instants in a 6sec window...
Granted we could then argue the value of Slam in such a setting etc, but like I said, it's pretty much pure speculation about talent [changes] to come.
Edit: Disregard.
Last edited by Mjollnir : 04/05/08 at 11:18 AM.
need some help
Gday im new to fury guild is working on closing out the T4 instances got most of my gear from ah or drops no one needed while i was tanking.. that being said i think i have OK fury gear and am now making the switch to full time fury and im looking for some tips. i realize that my gems are off on gear that i plan on replacing over the course of the next 2 weeks(T4 gloves and shoulders nin'jas badge boots or vindicators then upgrade to badge pants and pvp gems)oo and i just bought the[Relentless Earthstorm Diamond] but im trying to decide if its worth keeping eng just for goggles and repair bot. im also a forum noob TYVM
TYVM|
Originally Posted by nforcer
Gday im new to fury guild is working on closing out the T4 instances got most of my gear from ah or drops no one needed while i was tanking.. that being said i think i have OK fury gear and am now making the switch to full time fury and im looking for some tips. i realize that my gems are off on gear that i plan on replacing over the course of the next 2 weeks(T4 gloves and shoulders nin'jas badge boots or vindicators then upgrade to badge pants and pvp gems)oo and i just bought the[Relentless Earthstorm Diamond] but im trying to decide if its worth keeping eng just for goggles and repair bot. im also a forum noob
TYVM |
Also, check your grammar and sentence building, you will likely get reported if you don't edit your post.
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Originally Posted by Eledorian
A dps warrior in general isn't there to outdps rogue's or hunters. He's in the raid cause he provides a very potent AP buff while still maintaining very decent to excellent dps.
And yes I'd say fury is still viable in sunwell. |
I disagree, if you have one dps warrior in the raid arms is the way to go, blood frenzy is just too good right now. And with wf they can easily keep up with a fury warrior's dps at the least to allow the blood frenzy to overcome the difference. All other things being equal Rogues, warlocks, and hunters all outperform fury warriors right now. Unless you are fortunate enough to to get glaives even then rogues with the same glaives should probably outdps.
Fury seems so bleak right now for raiding if it is a pure dps race like Brutallus.
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Originally Posted by Shha
I also had 2 bloodlusts on Brutallus so the % wasnt that much different, and i had 3 drums group. I can reach 2200 on teron often, and that includes no scrolls of agi/str, normal flask not elixir of demonslaying (145 less ap), no drums, and sunders not imp expose (toning down armor difference to 1000).
As for your build: WW and MS are about as good already, so it wouldnt be that much different. Remember most likely we get new 50 pointers earlier then extra 10 talents. |
Wow Web Stats ~3:30 Gorefiend with one bloodlust, a 6:00 Brutallus with 2x bloodlust would be even more uptime.
Is it safe to assume s3 sword > Dragonstrike? It's hard to gauge how good or bad the proc is.
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Originally Posted by scoTTy
I'm really curious to see what numbers our warriors will be able to hit when we do Brutallus in a couple weeks. With nearly every group buff possible, no haste pots, and various t5/pvp level items still being used, I was able to nearly hit 2100dps on gorefiend the other night. My weapons are a bit outdated, Dragonstrike/Rod of Sun King, but I plan to buy s3 swords before Brutallus if nothing else better drops between now and then.
Wow Web Stats ~3:30 Gorefiend with one bloodlust, a 6:00 Brutallus with 2x bloodlust would be even more uptime. Is it safe to assume s3 sword > Dragonstrike? It's hard to gauge how good or bad the proc is. |
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Originally Posted by SSLanfear
I disagree, if you have one dps warrior in the raid arms is the way to go, blood frenzy is just too good right now. And with wf they can easily keep up with a fury warrior's dps at the least to allow the blood frenzy to overcome the difference. All other things being equal Rogues, warlocks, and hunters all outperform fury warriors right now. Unless you are fortunate enough to to get glaives even then rogues with the same glaives should probably outdps.
Fury seems so bleak right now for raiding if it is a pure dps race like Brutallus. |
It's also the player determaining the spot, there's plenty of fury warriors who do well in Sunwell, even on Brutallus. Sure if you're going for absolutely maximum rDPS then a Bloodfrenzy specced warrior is going to be better for the raid.
But if your dps warrior has been with you for a while and he's been fury for all that time I doubt he'd be asked to spec BF unless rDPS would be lacking alot.
People have killed Brut without a BF warrior, so it's definatly not a requirement.
Hmmm - it all depends. I'm doing almost 2000 Gorefiend dps these days in a rogue2/enh shaman/ret paly group. 2000 isn't that great, but if I factor in no feral aura, no haste pots, no drums, no CoR, and no blood frenzy, it's pretty good. One thing worth noting is that melee dps, specifically warrriors, is lower on Brutallus than on Gorefiend due to the lessened incoming damage, higher mob armor, and long fight. Having reckless last from 19 to 3% has you doing 3k+ dps for almost 20% of the fight. I figure adding in the extra buffs/debuffs, I should be able to top 2k on Brutallus.
On a recent kill by a decent guild, a BF warrior put up 1700 dps which is good. If you factor in the increased damage other players did from BF, it's a total contribution of 2200. That's with a 2 tanks, a full melee dps group, 3 hunters, and maybe one more dps. My guild doesn't run 3 hunters and would only probably line up 5 non-tank melee. Also, we don't have any 2500 dps rogues (at least performances of late). So if I could put up maybe 2100 dps on Brutallus, I would compare favorably with a 1700 dps BF warrior. We have our other dps warrior working on going BF, but we've been getting by without mostly.
There are a ton of synergistic buffs in raiding so as long as you have a fair number of them, you don't need all of them. Another guild on our server is more melee-centric so they run a BF warrior all the time. Conversely, we have a number of mages and warlocks who can sustain 2k+ dps. On our last Gorefiend kill, we had a mage at 2400 dps.
On a recent kill by a decent guild, a BF warrior put up 1700 dps which is good. If you factor in the increased damage other players did from BF, it's a total contribution of 2200. That's with a 2 tanks, a full melee dps group, 3 hunters, and maybe one more dps. My guild doesn't run 3 hunters and would only probably line up 5 non-tank melee. Also, we don't have any 2500 dps rogues (at least performances of late). So if I could put up maybe 2100 dps on Brutallus, I would compare favorably with a 1700 dps BF warrior. We have our other dps warrior working on going BF, but we've been getting by without mostly.
There are a ton of synergistic buffs in raiding so as long as you have a fair number of them, you don't need all of them. Another guild on our server is more melee-centric so they run a BF warrior all the time. Conversely, we have a number of mages and warlocks who can sustain 2k+ dps. On our last Gorefiend kill, we had a mage at 2400 dps.
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Originally Posted by landsoul
Depends on your gear level. At high DPS levels, the Dragontrike proc scaling will > s3 by a very small margin. I'd definately replace the Rod with a Vengeful though. Check [Warrior] Fury DPS Spreadsheet for 2.4. Oh and also, your gear is not that bad. Bracers of Eradication, Vengeful Legs, Dory's Embrace are excellent pieces while you are waiting for the final BT upgrades.
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Hi there,
Um a bit interested about you saying Dragonstrike proc scalling with high dps levels. Not really sure what that meant.
Cause atm im using Siphon (its been a while) and somehow i thinking changing it into Dragonstrike ( i recently respec to BS due to we farming Sunwell thrash and hoping for the BP pattern).
You reckon should i make Dragonstrike and consider i think i wont get s3 weapon (1hd) soon due to my arena mates mostly retired.
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Originally Posted by milanista11
Hi there,
Um a bit interested about you saying Dragonstrike proc scalling with high dps levels. Not really sure what that meant. |
Bigger consistant hits for slightly smaller but faster hits.
The thing about haste that is so yummy for a warrior is that it is multiplicative with regards to gear.
Now that the new badge items are out, how do you guys feel about the new 2h axe, The Blade of Harbingers: [The Blade of Harbingers]. My spreadsheet is reading it as higher dps as even Cataclysms Edge. It may be because im an orc but this seems strange to me.... why wouldn't Soul Cleaver be higher dps as well then?
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Originally Posted by Shinnu
Now that the new badge items are out, how do you guys feel about the new 2h axe, The Blade of Harbingers: [The Blade of Harbingers]. My spreadsheet is reading it as higher dps as even Cataclysms Edge. It may be because im an orc but this seems strange to me.... why wouldn't Soul Cleaver be higher dps as well then?
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Also spreadsheets don't properly factor things like sword spec and slam rotation. Also depending on your Arp gear, you might not need all that Arp from soul cleaver (its pretty easy to reach 2k passive with BT gear now and on most bosses you only need ~1350 passive).
What do you actually have right now? Clear winner to me is Cataclysm.
Edited onPatch 2.4.1
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Originally Posted by shed
Well this is slightly more overall DPS than soul cleaver.
Also spreadsheets don't properly factor things like sword spec and slam rotation. Also depending on your Arp gear, you might not need all that Arp from soul cleaver (its pretty easy to reach 2k passive with BT gear now and on most bosses you only need ~1350 passive). What do you actually have right now? Clear winner to me is Cataclysm. |
edit: my mistake, landsouls sheet has no 2h dps model, for that you'll have to use Grim13's sheet.
Last edited by Gruntle : 04/14/08 at 1:45 PM.
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Originally Posted by Gruntle
What do you mean by "spreadsheets don't properly factor things like sword spec and slam rotation"? Both landsoul's and Grim13's sheets do. If they wouldn't have the slam rotation modeled they could never even hope to model 2h dps (in most cases at least). The reason why Shinnu is getting the axe to be better is probably that he might not be respeccing to sword spec while trying the different gear (or the orc expertise might be more valuable than the extra dps from going sword spec over axe spec, I haven't looked at this myself so it might be the case).
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Oh, never realised that, Grim13's sheet has 2h cycles at least. In that sheet dps is modeled after the normal slam cycle. In this case haste just shortens the cycle.
Hasted to 2.5 sec you get:
0. white-slam-ms (~0.5)
3. white-slam-ww (~3.5)
6. white slam-ms (~6.5)
9. white-slam-whatever
and redo, once you stay below 2.5 sec, the cd's never collide. The model will not work if you have too low rage generation though.
Hasted to 2.5 sec you get:
0. white-slam-ms (~0.5)
3. white-slam-ww (~3.5)
6. white slam-ms (~6.5)
9. white-slam-whatever
and redo, once you stay below 2.5 sec, the cd's never collide. The model will not work if you have too low rage generation though.
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Originally Posted by landsoul
I havent begun to hope to model 2H at the moment, and probably wont either beacause with haste I have no way to figure everytime when MS and WW cooldowns will come compared with slam endings. My sheet is strictly DW builds atm.
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im 100% speccing back to sword spec since i dont change my spec (it has all 3 weapon specs), and yet it still seems to be highest dps out of anything even cataclysms edge... using grim13s sheet. I tried some raid dps and i couldnt even notice whats better really. The only weapons i have atm is that,season 3 sword, and soul cleaver. Cats edge wont drop for us : /
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Originally Posted by Gruntle
What do you mean by "spreadsheets don't properly factor things like sword spec and slam rotation"? Both landsoul's and Grim13's sheets do. If they wouldn't have the slam rotation modeled they could never even hope to model 2h dps (in most cases at least). The reason why Shinnu is getting the axe to be better is probably that he might not be respeccing to sword spec while trying the different gear (or the orc expertise might be more valuable than the extra dps from going sword spec over axe spec, I haven't looked at this myself so it might be the case).
edit: my mistake, landsouls sheet has no 2h dps model, for that you'll have to use Grim13's sheet. |
I guess if we had a robot playing a slam rotation with 0 latency (or at least 0 deviation in latency) then it would be easy to model it, but its never really like that in the real world so these models aren't even precise.
I agree that the modeling is not precise at all, but they should still be good enough for doing differential comparisons (i.e. comparing two weapons to each other). Unless the weapons have some stat/mechanic that changes the actual model, a 0 latency model will be just fine to figure out which weapon to use. Or are you suggesting that one of the weapons suffer a lot more from latency than the other? I agree that might be the case if you're running with enough haste to get your speed close to 2.5, but not otherwise.
The spreadsheet cannot be used to compare damage output between 2h and DW for example, for that the 2h dps is way too imprecise.
The spreadsheet cannot be used to compare damage output between 2h and DW for example, for that the 2h dps is way too imprecise.
Speaking of modeling, I have been trying to get a working execute model for a while now. Because of its different rage to damage mechanics and the effect of weapon speed, I dont think that using an average rage/s divided among executes is realistic and that to be accurate you need to find the rage gain from the permutations of hits you do in 1.5s periods. Of course this ends up being exponential in the calculations. Does anyone have any idea how to either express such permutations in a formula or how to mass calculate with a set of numbers with a macro or script?
Has anyone tested out [Righteous Weapon Coating]? If it has the common 45 sec internal cd, it would be better than [Adamantite Sharpening Stone]/[Adamantite Weightstone] and maybe even [Elemental Sharpening Stone] for an offhand temp enchant.
Probably, 300 Ap every hidden CD is a lot more than 28 crit, which is better than 14 crit / 12 damage anyways. Even if it was 1 PPM in the offhand it would come up every 45 seconds or so.
Nvm this. 
Edit: Nvm the response then..
I had those Coating on my offhand at our Brutallus Kill last week and it procced 7 times in 6 mins. The Hunters used the Manacoating and it procced 8 times in those 6 mins so i would say the 45s timer is right. In the end the Coating equals out to 60-75ap (procluck) and i think it is the best OH enchant for DW-Warris.
And it is easy to get because it is not BoP and i think that only for DW-Warriors those Coatings are good, so ask your rogues oder enhance Shamans to hand out their coatings to you.
And it is easy to get because it is not BoP and i think that only for DW-Warriors those Coatings are good, so ask your rogues oder enhance Shamans to hand out their coatings to you.
Not sure if it has been asked somewhere, but which would be better choice for main-hand: Dragonstrike or Vanir's? Dragonstrike scales slightly as I gear up (the proc becomes better) is what I've heard, but does it scale enough with my gear (Jiigeri on Stormreaver EU). Been wondering this for a couple of days but can't find answer from anywhere (maybe I'm just bad searcher?).
How many of you who are striving for "s1ck" Brutallus parses are using two personal DPS trinkets instead of 1 + [Solarian's Sapphire]? I just swapped in last night for the Arms Warrior for Brut because we're comfortable with him now. I used DST/Solarian's and was dismayed to find the Ret Paladin beating me until I got to Execute range, where I ended at 1961 DPS in 7th place. I was using Relentless Assault instead of Demonslaying and I never get a Feral Druid, but other than that I spared no expenses on the fight.
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Originally Posted by LodeRunner
How many of you who are striving for "s1ck" Brutallus parses are using two personal DPS trinkets instead of 1 + [Solarian's Sapphire]? I just swapped in last night for the Arms Warrior for Brut because we're comfortable with him now. I used DST/Solarian's and was dismayed to find the Ret Paladin beating me until I got to Execute range, where I ended at 1961 DPS in 7th place. I was using Relentless Assault instead of Demonslaying and I never get a Feral Druid, but other than that I spared no expenses on the fight.
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Originally Posted by Eledorian
A dps warrior in general isn't there to outdps rogue's or hunters. He's in the raid cause he provides a very potent AP buff while still maintaining very decent to excellent dps.
And yes I'd say fury is still viable in sunwell. |
I disagree, if you have one dps warrior in the raid arms is the way to go, blood frenzy is just too good right now. And with wf they can easily keep up with a fury warrior's dps at the least to allow the blood frenzy to overcome the difference. All other things being equal Rogues, warlocks, and hunters all outperform fury warriors right now. Unless you are fortunate enough to to get glaives even then rogues with the same glaives should probably outdps.
Fury seems so bleak right now for raiding if it is a pure dps race like Brutallus.
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Originally Posted by Shha
I also had 2 bloodlusts on Brutallus so the % wasnt that much different, and i had 3 drums group. I can reach 2200 on teron often, and that includes no scrolls of agi/str, normal flask not elixir of demonslaying (145 less ap), no drums, and sunders not imp expose (toning down armor difference to 1000).
As for your build: WW and MS are about as good already, so it wouldnt be that much different. Remember most likely we get new 50 pointers earlier then extra 10 talents. |
Wow Web Stats ~3:30 Gorefiend with one bloodlust, a 6:00 Brutallus with 2x bloodlust would be even more uptime.
Is it safe to assume s3 sword > Dragonstrike? It's hard to gauge how good or bad the proc is.
|
Originally Posted by scoTTy
I'm really curious to see what numbers our warriors will be able to hit when we do Brutallus in a couple weeks. With nearly every group buff possible, no haste pots, and various t5/pvp level items still being used, I was able to nearly hit 2100dps on gorefiend the other night. My weapons are a bit outdated, Dragonstrike/Rod of Sun King, but I plan to buy s3 swords before Brutallus if nothing else better drops between now and then.
Wow Web Stats ~3:30 Gorefiend with one bloodlust, a 6:00 Brutallus with 2x bloodlust would be even more uptime. Is it safe to assume s3 sword > Dragonstrike? It's hard to gauge how good or bad the proc is. |
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Originally Posted by SSLanfear
I disagree, if you have one dps warrior in the raid arms is the way to go, blood frenzy is just too good right now. And with wf they can easily keep up with a fury warrior's dps at the least to allow the blood frenzy to overcome the difference. All other things being equal Rogues, warlocks, and hunters all outperform fury warriors right now. Unless you are fortunate enough to to get glaives even then rogues with the same glaives should probably outdps.
Fury seems so bleak right now for raiding if it is a pure dps race like Brutallus. |
It's also the player determaining the spot, there's plenty of fury warriors who do well in Sunwell, even on Brutallus. Sure if you're going for absolutely maximum rDPS then a Bloodfrenzy specced warrior is going to be better for the raid.
But if your dps warrior has been with you for a while and he's been fury for all that time I doubt he'd be asked to spec BF unless rDPS would be lacking alot.
People have killed Brut without a BF warrior, so it's definatly not a requirement.
Hmmm - it all depends. I'm doing almost 2000 Gorefiend dps these days in a rogue2/enh shaman/ret paly group. 2000 isn't that great, but if I factor in no feral aura, no haste pots, no drums, no CoR, and no blood frenzy, it's pretty good. One thing worth noting is that melee dps, specifically warrriors, is lower on Brutallus than on Gorefiend due to the lessened incoming damage, higher mob armor, and long fight. Having reckless last from 19 to 3% has you doing 3k+ dps for almost 20% of the fight. I figure adding in the extra buffs/debuffs, I should be able to top 2k on Brutallus.
On a recent kill by a decent guild, a BF warrior put up 1700 dps which is good. If you factor in the increased damage other players did from BF, it's a total contribution of 2200. That's with a 2 tanks, a full melee dps group, 3 hunters, and maybe one more dps. My guild doesn't run 3 hunters and would only probably line up 5 non-tank melee. Also, we don't have any 2500 dps rogues (at least performances of late). So if I could put up maybe 2100 dps on Brutallus, I would compare favorably with a 1700 dps BF warrior. We have our other dps warrior working on going BF, but we've been getting by without mostly.
There are a ton of synergistic buffs in raiding so as long as you have a fair number of them, you don't need all of them. Another guild on our server is more melee-centric so they run a BF warrior all the time. Conversely, we have a number of mages and warlocks who can sustain 2k+ dps. On our last Gorefiend kill, we had a mage at 2400 dps.
On a recent kill by a decent guild, a BF warrior put up 1700 dps which is good. If you factor in the increased damage other players did from BF, it's a total contribution of 2200. That's with a 2 tanks, a full melee dps group, 3 hunters, and maybe one more dps. My guild doesn't run 3 hunters and would only probably line up 5 non-tank melee. Also, we don't have any 2500 dps rogues (at least performances of late). So if I could put up maybe 2100 dps on Brutallus, I would compare favorably with a 1700 dps BF warrior. We have our other dps warrior working on going BF, but we've been getting by without mostly.
There are a ton of synergistic buffs in raiding so as long as you have a fair number of them, you don't need all of them. Another guild on our server is more melee-centric so they run a BF warrior all the time. Conversely, we have a number of mages and warlocks who can sustain 2k+ dps. On our last Gorefiend kill, we had a mage at 2400 dps.
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Originally Posted by landsoul
Depends on your gear level. At high DPS levels, the Dragontrike proc scaling will > s3 by a very small margin. I'd definately replace the Rod with a Vengeful though. Check [Warrior] Fury DPS Spreadsheet for 2.4. Oh and also, your gear is not that bad. Bracers of Eradication, Vengeful Legs, Dory's Embrace are excellent pieces while you are waiting for the final BT upgrades.
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Hi there,
Um a bit interested about you saying Dragonstrike proc scalling with high dps levels. Not really sure what that meant.
Cause atm im using Siphon (its been a while) and somehow i thinking changing it into Dragonstrike ( i recently respec to BS due to we farming Sunwell thrash and hoping for the BP pattern).
You reckon should i make Dragonstrike and consider i think i wont get s3 weapon (1hd) soon due to my arena mates mostly retired.
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Originally Posted by milanista11
Hi there,
Um a bit interested about you saying Dragonstrike proc scalling with high dps levels. Not really sure what that meant. |
Bigger consistant hits for slightly smaller but faster hits.
The thing about haste that is so yummy for a warrior is that it is multiplicative with regards to gear.
Now that the new badge items are out, how do you guys feel about the new 2h axe, The Blade of Harbingers: [The Blade of Harbingers]. My spreadsheet is reading it as higher dps as even Cataclysms Edge. It may be because im an orc but this seems strange to me.... why wouldn't Soul Cleaver be higher dps as well then?
|
Originally Posted by Shinnu
Now that the new badge items are out, how do you guys feel about the new 2h axe, The Blade of Harbingers: [The Blade of Harbingers]. My spreadsheet is reading it as higher dps as even Cataclysms Edge. It may be because im an orc but this seems strange to me.... why wouldn't Soul Cleaver be higher dps as well then?
|
Also spreadsheets don't properly factor things like sword spec and slam rotation. Also depending on your Arp gear, you might not need all that Arp from soul cleaver (its pretty easy to reach 2k passive with BT gear now and on most bosses you only need ~1350 passive).
What do you actually have right now? Clear winner to me is Cataclysm.
Edited onPatch 2.4.1
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Originally Posted by shed
Well this is slightly more overall DPS than soul cleaver.
Also spreadsheets don't properly factor things like sword spec and slam rotation. Also depending on your Arp gear, you might not need all that Arp from soul cleaver (its pretty easy to reach 2k passive with BT gear now and on most bosses you only need ~1350 passive). What do you actually have right now? Clear winner to me is Cataclysm. |
edit: my mistake, landsouls sheet has no 2h dps model, for that you'll have to use Grim13's sheet.
Last edited by Gruntle : 04/14/08 at 1:45 PM.
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Originally Posted by Gruntle
What do you mean by "spreadsheets don't properly factor things like sword spec and slam rotation"? Both landsoul's and Grim13's sheets do. If they wouldn't have the slam rotation modeled they could never even hope to model 2h dps (in most cases at least). The reason why Shinnu is getting the axe to be better is probably that he might not be respeccing to sword spec while trying the different gear (or the orc expertise might be more valuable than the extra dps from going sword spec over axe spec, I haven't looked at this myself so it might be the case).
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Oh, never realised that, Grim13's sheet has 2h cycles at least. In that sheet dps is modeled after the normal slam cycle. In this case haste just shortens the cycle.
Hasted to 2.5 sec you get:
0. white-slam-ms (~0.5)
3. white-slam-ww (~3.5)
6. white slam-ms (~6.5)
9. white-slam-whatever
and redo, once you stay below 2.5 sec, the cd's never collide. The model will not work if you have too low rage generation though.
Hasted to 2.5 sec you get:
0. white-slam-ms (~0.5)
3. white-slam-ww (~3.5)
6. white slam-ms (~6.5)
9. white-slam-whatever
and redo, once you stay below 2.5 sec, the cd's never collide. The model will not work if you have too low rage generation though.
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Originally Posted by landsoul
I havent begun to hope to model 2H at the moment, and probably wont either beacause with haste I have no way to figure everytime when MS and WW cooldowns will come compared with slam endings. My sheet is strictly DW builds atm.
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im 100% speccing back to sword spec since i dont change my spec (it has all 3 weapon specs), and yet it still seems to be highest dps out of anything even cataclysms edge... using grim13s sheet. I tried some raid dps and i couldnt even notice whats better really. The only weapons i have atm is that,season 3 sword, and soul cleaver. Cats edge wont drop for us : /
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Originally Posted by Gruntle
What do you mean by "spreadsheets don't properly factor things like sword spec and slam rotation"? Both landsoul's and Grim13's sheets do. If they wouldn't have the slam rotation modeled they could never even hope to model 2h dps (in most cases at least). The reason why Shinnu is getting the axe to be better is probably that he might not be respeccing to sword spec while trying the different gear (or the orc expertise might be more valuable than the extra dps from going sword spec over axe spec, I haven't looked at this myself so it might be the case).
edit: my mistake, landsouls sheet has no 2h dps model, for that you'll have to use Grim13's sheet. |
I guess if we had a robot playing a slam rotation with 0 latency (or at least 0 deviation in latency) then it would be easy to model it, but its never really like that in the real world so these models aren't even precise.
I agree that the modeling is not precise at all, but they should still be good enough for doing differential comparisons (i.e. comparing two weapons to each other). Unless the weapons have some stat/mechanic that changes the actual model, a 0 latency model will be just fine to figure out which weapon to use. Or are you suggesting that one of the weapons suffer a lot more from latency than the other? I agree that might be the case if you're running with enough haste to get your speed close to 2.5, but not otherwise.
The spreadsheet cannot be used to compare damage output between 2h and DW for example, for that the 2h dps is way too imprecise.
The spreadsheet cannot be used to compare damage output between 2h and DW for example, for that the 2h dps is way too imprecise.
Speaking of modeling, I have been trying to get a working execute model for a while now. Because of its different rage to damage mechanics and the effect of weapon speed, I dont think that using an average rage/s divided among executes is realistic and that to be accurate you need to find the rage gain from the permutations of hits you do in 1.5s periods. Of course this ends up being exponential in the calculations. Does anyone have any idea how to either express such permutations in a formula or how to mass calculate with a set of numbers with a macro or script?
Has anyone tested out [Righteous Weapon Coating]? If it has the common 45 sec internal cd, it would be better than [Adamantite Sharpening Stone]/[Adamantite Weightstone] and maybe even [Elemental Sharpening Stone] for an offhand temp enchant.
Probably, 300 Ap every hidden CD is a lot more than 28 crit, which is better than 14 crit / 12 damage anyways. Even if it was 1 PPM in the offhand it would come up every 45 seconds or so.
Nvm this.
Edit: Nvm the response then..
I had those Coating on my offhand at our Brutallus Kill last week and it procced 7 times in 6 mins. The Hunters used the Manacoating and it procced 8 times in those 6 mins so i would say the 45s timer is right. In the end the Coating equals out to 60-75ap (procluck) and i think it is the best OH enchant for DW-Warris.
And it is easy to get because it is not BoP and i think that only for DW-Warriors those Coatings are good, so ask your rogues oder enhance Shamans to hand out their coatings to you.
And it is easy to get because it is not BoP and i think that only for DW-Warriors those Coatings are good, so ask your rogues oder enhance Shamans to hand out their coatings to you.
Not sure if it has been asked somewhere, but which would be better choice for main-hand: Dragonstrike or Vanir's? Dragonstrike scales slightly as I gear up (the proc becomes better) is what I've heard, but does it scale enough with my gear (Jiigeri on Stormreaver EU). Been wondering this for a couple of days but can't find answer from anywhere (maybe I'm just bad searcher?).
How many of you who are striving for "s1ck" Brutallus parses are using two personal DPS trinkets instead of 1 + [Solarian's Sapphire]? I just swapped in last night for the Arms Warrior for Brut because we're comfortable with him now. I used DST/Solarian's and was dismayed to find the Ret Paladin beating me until I got to Execute range, where I ended at 1961 DPS in 7th place. I was using Relentless Assault instead of Demonslaying and I never get a Feral Druid, but other than that I spared no expenses on the fight.
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Originally Posted by LodeRunner
How many of you who are striving for "s1ck" Brutallus parses are using two personal DPS trinkets instead of 1 + [Solarian's Sapphire]? I just swapped in last night for the Arms Warrior for Brut because we're comfortable with him now. I used DST/Solarian's and was dismayed to find the Ret Paladin beating me until I got to Execute range, where I ended at 1961 DPS in 7th place. I was using Relentless Assault instead of Demonslaying and I never get a Feral Druid, but other than that I spared no expenses on the fight.
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Originally Posted by LodeRunner
How many of you who are striving for "s1ck" Brutallus parses are using two personal DPS trinkets instead of 1 + [Solarian's Sapphire]? I just swapped in last night for the Arms Warrior for Brut because we're comfortable with him now. I used DST/Solarian's and was dismayed to find the Ret Paladin beating me until I got to Execute range, where I ended at 1961 DPS in 7th place. I was using Relentless Assault instead of Demonslaying and I never get a Feral Druid, but other than that I spared no expenses on the fight.
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Also in my case, we've only seen 1 Solarian trinket drop since day one and the douchebag gquit.
Solarian's is such a mixed blessing. On the one hand, it is probably the best group buff trinket in the game and will be for a long time. On the other hand, there are so many more interesting/cool trinkets I'd rather be using.
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Originally Posted by LodeRunner
Solarian's is such a mixed blessing. On the one hand, it is probably the best group buff trinket in the game and will be for a long time. On the other hand, there are so many more interesting/cool trinkets I'd rather be using.
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I hate having it, because the competitive part of me knows that I'm limiting my personal DPS to boost others, affecting my spot on the meters. However, the pragmatist in me knows that a) This is better for the raid dps, which is what matters, and b) I don't have to stress out about getting Tsunami/Madness/Shard (I have DST for the non-Sapphire slot).
Overall, it's a good boost to having a DPS warrior in the raid, and I'm intrigued to see what the parallel is in WotLK.
Edited onPatch 2.4.1
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Originally Posted by LodeRunner
Solarian's is such a mixed blessing. On the one hand, it is probably the best group buff trinket in the game and will be for a long time. On the other hand, there are so many more interesting/cool trinkets I'd rather be using.
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Figures warriors had to get more or less the only irreplacable T5 instance class trinket, and then get completely shafted by their T6 trinket
Last edited by Giantlol : 04/16/08 at 1:58 PM.
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Originally Posted by Giantlol
I agree completely, though I don't have one myself. I think I'd have a really hard time bringing myself to use one because it would almost 100% drop me on damage meters by a fair amount, because not only am I buffing those around me, I'm decreasing my own dps, it keeps dropping when I'm on my alt!
Figures warriors had to get more or less the only irreplacable T5 instance class trinket, and then get completely shafted by their T6 trinket |
I'd also echo that whilst it's a great trinket, it is annoyingly restrictive. I have both DST and Shard now, but I'll almost never be able to use them together due to the looming presence of Solarian's.
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Originally Posted by Moogul
On the topic of this, I've been wondering how many guilds go back to TK to try and get Sapphires for their DPS warriors without it? I'm the only really active DPS warrior left in my guild currently, we're looking to recruit another and whilst we can generally gear people up pretty quick with T6 drops/badges/craftables etc., getting someone without a sapphire just seems like such a loss.
I'd also echo that whilst it's a great trinket, it is annoyingly restrictive. I have both DST and Shard now, but I'll almost never be able to use them together due to the looming presence of Solarian's. |
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Originally Posted by Moogul
On the topic of this, I've been wondering how many guilds go back to TK to try and get Sapphires for their DPS warriors without it?
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You can only take a shot at the drop once a week, so if your raid hits a stopping point 30-45 minutes early--go for it. You can let some players bring their alts and keep it fairly entertaining.
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Originally Posted by LodeRunner
Solarian's is such a mixed blessing. On the one hand, it is probably the best group buff trinket in the game and will be for a long time. On the other hand, there are so many more interesting/cool trinkets I'd rather be using.
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Yup the other cool trinket such as TsT, MoTB even DST is really2 interesting for me to use, but as pretty much the most active dps war in guild i stick to Solarian since ever it dropped for me ( lucky enough it was my first ever solarian kill i got it).
Reading some of other posts here really encourage me to keep solarian at 1 of my slot (and Soc for the other or BC) and forget about trying to get other trinket like MoTB or even DST in weekend run >.<
Talking about the Sapphire.. I got it and using it all the time.
I know its a very good trinket, but if I put down some calculations I come to a point where equiping a pure DPS trinket is better than the Sapphire.
According to wowwiki 14 AP results in 1 DPS increase. 70AP per group member (5DPS) x 5 gives 25DPS in total.
If white damage is 50% of a players damage (a bit less for a warrior, a bit more for a rogue/shaman) it would give a total of 50DPS just of that trinket. (very roughly this last part).
Equiping the Shard instead, it gives me like 68DPS increase (something like that, dont have my laptop with me today so i cant check the spreadsheet) Even Madness of the Betrayer came just around/above Sapphire for total dps.
So I must be missing something badly there.
Still im equal or even higher dps than our rogues so I cant complain even with the Sapphire. =)
I know its a very good trinket, but if I put down some calculations I come to a point where equiping a pure DPS trinket is better than the Sapphire.
According to wowwiki 14 AP results in 1 DPS increase. 70AP per group member (5DPS) x 5 gives 25DPS in total.
If white damage is 50% of a players damage (a bit less for a warrior, a bit more for a rogue/shaman) it would give a total of 50DPS just of that trinket. (very roughly this last part).
Equiping the Shard instead, it gives me like 68DPS increase (something like that, dont have my laptop with me today so i cant check the spreadsheet) Even Madness of the Betrayer came just around/above Sapphire for total dps.
So I must be missing something badly there.
Still im equal or even higher dps than our rogues so I cant complain even with the Sapphire. =)
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Originally Posted by Mace
Talking about the Sapphire.. I got it and using it all the time.
I know its a very good trinket, but if I put down some calculations I come to a point where equiping a pure DPS trinket is better than the Sapphire. According to wowwiki 14 AP results in 1 DPS increase. 70AP per group member (5DPS) x 5 gives 25DPS in total. If white damage is 50% of a players damage (a bit less for a warrior, a bit more for a rogue/shaman) it would give a total of 50DPS just of that trinket. (very roughly this last part). Equiping the Shard instead, it gives me like 68DPS increase (something like that, dont have my laptop with me today so i cant check the spreadsheet) Even Madness of the Betrayer came just around/above Sapphire for total dps. So I must be missing something badly there. Still im equal or even higher dps than our rogues so I cant complain even with the Sapphire. =) |
50% is a bit off for everyone. We sit more around 60-65% when you consider HStrike damage which is in essence white damage too. Rogues shams and us are all just about equal in this regard.
It would make sense from an itemization standpoint that the personal DPS gained from t6 level trinkets outweighs the collective gain from a t5 trinket, so I'm not really too surprised there. It also does give hope to those without the trinket, or those who have it but stuck between a rock and a hard place with regards to equipping other trinks for personal enjoyment and having it be justified as well.
The AP bonus from Solarian's is increased by Commanding Presence, putting the bonus up to 87.5 per player. If you're Fury you're getting 10% on top of that.
AP doesn't just increase white damage, don't know why you just selected autoattacks. Only DPS you have to remove is Execute, shaman shocks and rogue poison - I might be missing something there.
EDIT: When comparing it to other trinkets, I just say to myself - would I equip this trinket or one that gave me 440 attack power? The decision is generally fairly simple. Even with a resto shaman doing teh windfuryz it's still significantly better than pretty much everything.
AP doesn't just increase white damage, don't know why you just selected autoattacks. Only DPS you have to remove is Execute, shaman shocks and rogue poison - I might be missing something there.
EDIT: When comparing it to other trinkets, I just say to myself - would I equip this trinket or one that gave me 440 attack power? The decision is generally fairly simple. Even with a resto shaman doing teh windfuryz it's still significantly better than pretty much everything.
Enhancement shaman shocks get 30% of AP as spell damage, so their shock damage increases with AP.
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Originally Posted by Lavos
The AP bonus from Solarian's is increased by Commanding Presence, putting the bonus up to 87.5 per player. If you're Fury you're getting 10% on top of that.
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Originally Posted by Lavos
AP doesn't just increase white damage, don't know why you just selected autoattacks. Only DPS you have to remove is Execute, shaman shocks and rogue poison - I might be missing something there.
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If i keep 60%=white=31,875
then 100% would be 53,125 DPS increase from Sapphire
I wasnt that far off with the initial guestimate then ^^
the 31,875 would be calculated as follow:
4x 6,25 (87,5AP per player/14) = 25
1x 6,25 * 10% (imp Zerkerstance) = 6,875
total 31,875
As Lavos says, the Sapphire works out as about 440ap in total, passive.
Would you wear Shard of Contempt over a trinket that was:
Trinket
Equip: Increases attack power by 440
It's a pretty easy conclusion to make.
Would you wear Shard of Contempt over a trinket that was:
Trinket
Equip: Increases attack power by 440
It's a pretty easy conclusion to make.
I used the rogue dps sheet ( their dps is what we want to boost isn't it? ) - it showed a personal dps gain of about ~35 for just a warrior using Sapphire over normal battleshout. So if your group setup is 3xrogue,shaman,warrior it will be quite hard to justify another dps trinket over >100 rdps gain.
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Originally Posted by Moogul
As Lavos says, the Sapphire works out as about 440ap in total, passive.
Would you wear Shard of Contempt over a trinket that was: Trinket Equip: Increases attack power by 440 It's a pretty easy conclusion to make. |
If the shard gives me a higher DPS increase than the Sapphire gives in total over all 5 in group...
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Originally Posted by Baragdur
I used the rogue dps sheet ( their dps is what we want to boost isn't it? ) - it showed a personal dps gain of about ~35 for just a warrior using Sapphire over normal battleshout. So if your group setup is 3xrogue,shaman,warrior it will be quite hard to justify another dps trinket over >100 rdps gain.
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If you say 14AP increases your DPS by 1 thats wrong. It increases your character sheet white DPS by 1. In dual wield - 1.625 rogue 1.75. But AP increases the damage of all your instants as well, and increases the damage of your crits as well among others which also means more rage gain. With an enhance ( Unleashed Rage ) and improved beserker stance its effectively 105AP(20% Modifier) for you, and 96.25AP per party member (10% AP modifier)= total 490AP.
Doubt there is any trinket that will be an increase over that. Until WOTLk.
Doubt there is any trinket that will be an increase over that. Until WOTLk.
We might find a way to pinpoint the best usage though. Considering group setups are not always optimal I would be interested in finding the break point of usage.
~35 dps gain for one rogue
~ ? enhancement shaman
~ ? feral
~ ? another warrior w/o trinket
~ ? hunter pet
If we have a trinket that gives us ~100 dps (must be a scaling ability as DST) with our gear, we can consider swapping solarions sapphire. Especially if we find ourselves in a mixed group.
A group with 2 hunters a warlock and a paladin (heal) often happens to me. That's where I know my groupbuffs don't matter, so equip something else.
So can someone provide a dps-number for shamans, feral that would be most useful at least for some napkin math.
~35 dps gain for one rogue
~ ? enhancement shaman
~ ? feral
~ ? another warrior w/o trinket
~ ? hunter pet
If we have a trinket that gives us ~100 dps (must be a scaling ability as DST) with our gear, we can consider swapping solarions sapphire. Especially if we find ourselves in a mixed group.
A group with 2 hunters a warlock and a paladin (heal) often happens to me. That's where I know my groupbuffs don't matter, so equip something else.
So can someone provide a dps-number for shamans, feral that would be most useful at least for some napkin math.
Edited onPatch 2.4.1
Unless I am missing something here, when looking at the Sapphire during T5 content, it gave around 25 DPS on average per person in the group. I'm not sure what, if anything would actually cause it to do more than that in later content except possibly haste effects, a minor boost in hit and crit or if that calculation was just plain off. Even if that's an underestimation, it would still be adding 125 RDPS at a minimum. I'm seeing approximately 98 personal DPS from a DST and almost the exact same boost from the SoC. Using the conservative numbers above, on a six minute fight you are looking at a difference of 10k damage, less the shorter the fight is or if there are pauses in melee for any reason. Also, while this is all about min/maxing and assuming everyone is always alive, if even one person dies midfight (or sooner) it's effectiveness drops even more.
Last edited by Graul : 04/17/08 at 12:36 PM.
Sometimes you may not be giving BS to the whole group all the time. For VR or Brutallus its good, but depending on your strats for some fights I get more from using both DST/Shard from people being spread out for some reason. If BS only applies to 3-4 another trinket could come out ahead.
On that note does anyone know if BS will have any significant effect on hunter pet dps?
On that note does anyone know if BS will have any significant effect on hunter pet dps?
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Originally Posted by Machinator
significant effect on hunter pet dps?
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Originally Posted by Machinator
On that note does anyone know if BS will have any significant effect on hunter pet dps?
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Originally Posted by LodeRunner
Yeah but no one puts hunters in with the melee since the hunters themselves don't get a benefit from Battle Shout and always bitch about GoA.
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Originally Posted by LodeRunner
Yeah but no one puts hunters in with the melee since the hunters themselves don't get a benefit from Battle Shout and always bitch about GoA.
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Our top BM hunter used to bitch about being in the melee group (our enh shaman totem twists so he gets GoA too which was a plus I suppose) so his pet would get battleshout, he's surv now so instead of bitching he uses the second enh shaman if we have 2 in the raid usually.
On the topic of Solarian's Sapphire, how many of you see it still being used at high end raiding at level 80 in WoTLK? It's a pretty unique trinket in that it increases the entire groups dps, I can see it being used at level 80 unless blizzard brings out something better then it ofcourse.
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Originally Posted by Eledorian
Complete opposite here
Our top BM hunter used to bitch about being in the melee group (our enh shaman totem twists so he gets GoA too which was a plus I suppose) so his pet would get battleshout, he's surv now so instead of bitching he uses the second enh shaman if we have 2 in the raid usually. On the topic of Solarian's Sapphire, how many of you see it still being used at high end raiding at level 80 in WoTLK? It's a pretty unique trinket in that it increases the entire groups dps, I can see it being used at level 80 unless blizzard brings out something better then it ofcourse. |
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Originally Posted by LodeRunner
How many of you who are striving for "s1ck" Brutallus parses are using two personal DPS trinkets instead of 1 + [Solarian's Sapphire]? I just swapped in last night for the Arms Warrior for Brut because we're comfortable with him now. I used DST/Solarian's and was dismayed to find the Ret Paladin beating me until I got to Execute range, where I ended at 1961 DPS in 7th place. I was using Relentless Assault instead of Demonslaying and I never get a Feral Druid, but other than that I spared no expenses on the fight.
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Also in my case, we've only seen 1 Solarian trinket drop since day one and the douchebag gquit.
Solarian's is such a mixed blessing. On the one hand, it is probably the best group buff trinket in the game and will be for a long time. On the other hand, there are so many more interesting/cool trinkets I'd rather be using.
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Originally Posted by LodeRunner
Solarian's is such a mixed blessing. On the one hand, it is probably the best group buff trinket in the game and will be for a long time. On the other hand, there are so many more interesting/cool trinkets I'd rather be using.
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I hate having it, because the competitive part of me knows that I'm limiting my personal DPS to boost others, affecting my spot on the meters. However, the pragmatist in me knows that a) This is better for the raid dps, which is what matters, and b) I don't have to stress out about getting Tsunami/Madness/Shard (I have DST for the non-Sapphire slot).
Overall, it's a good boost to having a DPS warrior in the raid, and I'm intrigued to see what the parallel is in WotLK.
Edited onPatch 2.4.1
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Originally Posted by LodeRunner
Solarian's is such a mixed blessing. On the one hand, it is probably the best group buff trinket in the game and will be for a long time. On the other hand, there are so many more interesting/cool trinkets I'd rather be using.
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Figures warriors had to get more or less the only irreplacable T5 instance class trinket, and then get completely shafted by their T6 trinket
Last edited by Giantlol : 04/16/08 at 1:58 PM.
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Originally Posted by Giantlol
I agree completely, though I don't have one myself. I think I'd have a really hard time bringing myself to use one because it would almost 100% drop me on damage meters by a fair amount, because not only am I buffing those around me, I'm decreasing my own dps, it keeps dropping when I'm on my alt!
Figures warriors had to get more or less the only irreplacable T5 instance class trinket, and then get completely shafted by their T6 trinket |
I'd also echo that whilst it's a great trinket, it is annoyingly restrictive. I have both DST and Shard now, but I'll almost never be able to use them together due to the looming presence of Solarian's.
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Originally Posted by Moogul
On the topic of this, I've been wondering how many guilds go back to TK to try and get Sapphires for their DPS warriors without it? I'm the only really active DPS warrior left in my guild currently, we're looking to recruit another and whilst we can generally gear people up pretty quick with T6 drops/badges/craftables etc., getting someone without a sapphire just seems like such a loss.
I'd also echo that whilst it's a great trinket, it is annoyingly restrictive. I have both DST and Shard now, but I'll almost never be able to use them together due to the looming presence of Solarian's. |
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Originally Posted by Moogul
On the topic of this, I've been wondering how many guilds go back to TK to try and get Sapphires for their DPS warriors without it?
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You can only take a shot at the drop once a week, so if your raid hits a stopping point 30-45 minutes early--go for it. You can let some players bring their alts and keep it fairly entertaining.
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Originally Posted by LodeRunner
Solarian's is such a mixed blessing. On the one hand, it is probably the best group buff trinket in the game and will be for a long time. On the other hand, there are so many more interesting/cool trinkets I'd rather be using.
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Yup the other cool trinket such as TsT, MoTB even DST is really2 interesting for me to use, but as pretty much the most active dps war in guild i stick to Solarian since ever it dropped for me ( lucky enough it was my first ever solarian kill i got it).
Reading some of other posts here really encourage me to keep solarian at 1 of my slot (and Soc for the other or BC) and forget about trying to get other trinket like MoTB or even DST in weekend run >.<
Talking about the Sapphire.. I got it and using it all the time.
I know its a very good trinket, but if I put down some calculations I come to a point where equiping a pure DPS trinket is better than the Sapphire.
According to wowwiki 14 AP results in 1 DPS increase. 70AP per group member (5DPS) x 5 gives 25DPS in total.
If white damage is 50% of a players damage (a bit less for a warrior, a bit more for a rogue/shaman) it would give a total of 50DPS just of that trinket. (very roughly this last part).
Equiping the Shard instead, it gives me like 68DPS increase (something like that, dont have my laptop with me today so i cant check the spreadsheet) Even Madness of the Betrayer came just around/above Sapphire for total dps.
So I must be missing something badly there.
Still im equal or even higher dps than our rogues so I cant complain even with the Sapphire. =)
I know its a very good trinket, but if I put down some calculations I come to a point where equiping a pure DPS trinket is better than the Sapphire.
According to wowwiki 14 AP results in 1 DPS increase. 70AP per group member (5DPS) x 5 gives 25DPS in total.
If white damage is 50% of a players damage (a bit less for a warrior, a bit more for a rogue/shaman) it would give a total of 50DPS just of that trinket. (very roughly this last part).
Equiping the Shard instead, it gives me like 68DPS increase (something like that, dont have my laptop with me today so i cant check the spreadsheet) Even Madness of the Betrayer came just around/above Sapphire for total dps.
So I must be missing something badly there.
Still im equal or even higher dps than our rogues so I cant complain even with the Sapphire. =)
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Originally Posted by Mace
Talking about the Sapphire.. I got it and using it all the time.
I know its a very good trinket, but if I put down some calculations I come to a point where equiping a pure DPS trinket is better than the Sapphire. According to wowwiki 14 AP results in 1 DPS increase. 70AP per group member (5DPS) x 5 gives 25DPS in total. If white damage is 50% of a players damage (a bit less for a warrior, a bit more for a rogue/shaman) it would give a total of 50DPS just of that trinket. (very roughly this last part). Equiping the Shard instead, it gives me like 68DPS increase (something like that, dont have my laptop with me today so i cant check the spreadsheet) Even Madness of the Betrayer came just around/above Sapphire for total dps. So I must be missing something badly there. Still im equal or even higher dps than our rogues so I cant complain even with the Sapphire. =) |
50% is a bit off for everyone. We sit more around 60-65% when you consider HStrike damage which is in essence white damage too. Rogues shams and us are all just about equal in this regard.
It would make sense from an itemization standpoint that the personal DPS gained from t6 level trinkets outweighs the collective gain from a t5 trinket, so I'm not really too surprised there. It also does give hope to those without the trinket, or those who have it but stuck between a rock and a hard place with regards to equipping other trinks for personal enjoyment and having it be justified as well.
The AP bonus from Solarian's is increased by Commanding Presence, putting the bonus up to 87.5 per player. If you're Fury you're getting 10% on top of that.
AP doesn't just increase white damage, don't know why you just selected autoattacks. Only DPS you have to remove is Execute, shaman shocks and rogue poison - I might be missing something there.
EDIT: When comparing it to other trinkets, I just say to myself - would I equip this trinket or one that gave me 440 attack power? The decision is generally fairly simple. Even with a resto shaman doing teh windfuryz it's still significantly better than pretty much everything.
AP doesn't just increase white damage, don't know why you just selected autoattacks. Only DPS you have to remove is Execute, shaman shocks and rogue poison - I might be missing something there.
EDIT: When comparing it to other trinkets, I just say to myself - would I equip this trinket or one that gave me 440 attack power? The decision is generally fairly simple. Even with a resto shaman doing teh windfuryz it's still significantly better than pretty much everything.
Enhancement shaman shocks get 30% of AP as spell damage, so their shock damage increases with AP.
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Originally Posted by Lavos
The AP bonus from Solarian's is increased by Commanding Presence, putting the bonus up to 87.5 per player. If you're Fury you're getting 10% on top of that.
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Originally Posted by Lavos
AP doesn't just increase white damage, don't know why you just selected autoattacks. Only DPS you have to remove is Execute, shaman shocks and rogue poison - I might be missing something there.
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If i keep 60%=white=31,875
then 100% would be 53,125 DPS increase from Sapphire
I wasnt that far off with the initial guestimate then ^^
the 31,875 would be calculated as follow:
4x 6,25 (87,5AP per player/14) = 25
1x 6,25 * 10% (imp Zerkerstance) = 6,875
total 31,875
As Lavos says, the Sapphire works out as about 440ap in total, passive.
Would you wear Shard of Contempt over a trinket that was:
Trinket
Equip: Increases attack power by 440
It's a pretty easy conclusion to make.
Would you wear Shard of Contempt over a trinket that was:
Trinket
Equip: Increases attack power by 440
It's a pretty easy conclusion to make.
I used the rogue dps sheet ( their dps is what we want to boost isn't it? ) - it showed a personal dps gain of about ~35 for just a warrior using Sapphire over normal battleshout. So if your group setup is 3xrogue,shaman,warrior it will be quite hard to justify another dps trinket over >100 rdps gain.
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Originally Posted by Moogul
As Lavos says, the Sapphire works out as about 440ap in total, passive.
Would you wear Shard of Contempt over a trinket that was: Trinket Equip: Increases attack power by 440 It's a pretty easy conclusion to make. |
If the shard gives me a higher DPS increase than the Sapphire gives in total over all 5 in group...
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Originally Posted by Baragdur
I used the rogue dps sheet ( their dps is what we want to boost isn't it? ) - it showed a personal dps gain of about ~35 for just a warrior using Sapphire over normal battleshout. So if your group setup is 3xrogue,shaman,warrior it will be quite hard to justify another dps trinket over >100 rdps gain.
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If you say 14AP increases your DPS by 1 thats wrong. It increases your character sheet white DPS by 1. In dual wield - 1.625 rogue 1.75. But AP increases the damage of all your instants as well, and increases the damage of your crits as well among others which also means more rage gain. With an enhance ( Unleashed Rage ) and improved beserker stance its effectively 105AP(20% Modifier) for you, and 96.25AP per party member (10% AP modifier)= total 490AP.
Doubt there is any trinket that will be an increase over that. Until WOTLk.
Doubt there is any trinket that will be an increase over that. Until WOTLk.
We might find a way to pinpoint the best usage though. Considering group setups are not always optimal I would be interested in finding the break point of usage.
~35 dps gain for one rogue
~ ? enhancement shaman
~ ? feral
~ ? another warrior w/o trinket
~ ? hunter pet
If we have a trinket that gives us ~100 dps (must be a scaling ability as DST) with our gear, we can consider swapping solarions sapphire. Especially if we find ourselves in a mixed group.
A group with 2 hunters a warlock and a paladin (heal) often happens to me. That's where I know my groupbuffs don't matter, so equip something else.
So can someone provide a dps-number for shamans, feral that would be most useful at least for some napkin math.
~35 dps gain for one rogue
~ ? enhancement shaman
~ ? feral
~ ? another warrior w/o trinket
~ ? hunter pet
If we have a trinket that gives us ~100 dps (must be a scaling ability as DST) with our gear, we can consider swapping solarions sapphire. Especially if we find ourselves in a mixed group.
A group with 2 hunters a warlock and a paladin (heal) often happens to me. That's where I know my groupbuffs don't matter, so equip something else.
So can someone provide a dps-number for shamans, feral that would be most useful at least for some napkin math.
Edited onPatch 2.4.1
Unless I am missing something here, when looking at the Sapphire during T5 content, it gave around 25 DPS on average per person in the group. I'm not sure what, if anything would actually cause it to do more than that in later content except possibly haste effects, a minor boost in hit and crit or if that calculation was just plain off. Even if that's an underestimation, it would still be adding 125 RDPS at a minimum. I'm seeing approximately 98 personal DPS from a DST and almost the exact same boost from the SoC. Using the conservative numbers above, on a six minute fight you are looking at a difference of 10k damage, less the shorter the fight is or if there are pauses in melee for any reason. Also, while this is all about min/maxing and assuming everyone is always alive, if even one person dies midfight (or sooner) it's effectiveness drops even more.
Last edited by Graul : 04/17/08 at 12:36 PM.
Sometimes you may not be giving BS to the whole group all the time. For VR or Brutallus its good, but depending on your strats for some fights I get more from using both DST/Shard from people being spread out for some reason. If BS only applies to 3-4 another trinket could come out ahead.
On that note does anyone know if BS will have any significant effect on hunter pet dps?
On that note does anyone know if BS will have any significant effect on hunter pet dps?
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Originally Posted by Machinator
significant effect on hunter pet dps?
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Originally Posted by Machinator
On that note does anyone know if BS will have any significant effect on hunter pet dps?
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Originally Posted by LodeRunner
Yeah but no one puts hunters in with the melee since the hunters themselves don't get a benefit from Battle Shout and always bitch about GoA.
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Originally Posted by LodeRunner
Yeah but no one puts hunters in with the melee since the hunters themselves don't get a benefit from Battle Shout and always bitch about GoA.
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Our top BM hunter used to bitch about being in the melee group (our enh shaman totem twists so he gets GoA too which was a plus I suppose) so his pet would get battleshout, he's surv now so instead of bitching he uses the second enh shaman if we have 2 in the raid usually.
On the topic of Solarian's Sapphire, how many of you see it still being used at high end raiding at level 80 in WoTLK? It's a pretty unique trinket in that it increases the entire groups dps, I can see it being used at level 80 unless blizzard brings out something better then it ofcourse.
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Originally Posted by Eledorian
Complete opposite here
Our top BM hunter used to bitch about being in the melee group (our enh shaman totem twists so he gets GoA too which was a plus I suppose) so his pet would get battleshout, he's surv now so instead of bitching he uses the second enh shaman if we have 2 in the raid usually. On the topic of Solarian's Sapphire, how many of you see it still being used at high end raiding at level 80 in WoTLK? It's a pretty unique trinket in that it increases the entire groups dps, I can see it being used at level 80 unless blizzard brings out something better then it ofcourse. |
Does anyone know if you buff battle shout with the sapphire on before the pull and swap it for a dps trinket if you still get the extra AP? I'm assuming you do. If so I wonder what the overall numbers look like for shorter fights doing this with 3 minute battle shout.
Hy everyone, i have a question
Is it possible that executioner on both weapons is better then executioner on mainhand and mongoose on offhand? In the spreadsheets for my gear, two executioners are slightly better, but I'm not sure if i should trust it cause in the new 2.4 spreadsheet, executioner on offhand isn't even an option
Is it possible that executioner on both weapons is better then executioner on mainhand and mongoose on offhand? In the spreadsheets for my gear, two executioners are slightly better, but I'm not sure if i should trust it cause in the new 2.4 spreadsheet, executioner on offhand isn't even an option
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Originally Posted by zaon
Does anyone know if you buff battle shout with the sapphire on before the pull and swap it for a dps trinket if you still get the extra AP? I'm assuming you do. If so I wonder what the overall numbers look like for shorter fights doing this with 3 minute battle shout.
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Originally Posted by zaon
Does anyone know if you buff battle shout with the sapphire on before the pull and swap it for a dps trinket if you still get the extra AP? I'm assuming you do. If so I wonder what the overall numbers look like for shorter fights doing this with 3 minute battle shout.
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Originally Posted by itami11
Hy everyone, i have a question
Is it possible that executioner on both weapons is better then executioner on mainhand and mongoose on offhand? In the spreadsheets for my gear, two executioners are slightly better, but I'm not sure if i should trust it cause in the new 2.4 spreadsheet, executioner on offhand isn't even an option |
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Originally Posted by Eledorian
That would be quite the waste of talent points (assuming it does work), booming voice adds absolutely nothing to dps (apart from saving a bit of rage since you don't have to rebuff BS as often).
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Doesn't work though so the discussion is moot.
I've read that one should only have 1/2 Imp WW, because if you have 2/2 then the cooldowns dont work out with it and Bloodthirst.
But Im looking at how it effects cast cycle (18 second cycle including 3 BT, 2 WW, and some chances to do other stuff).
I think that when you include latency into the equation (say .2 latency), you cant do the cast cycle correctly without 2/2 Imp WW:
0: BT
1.7: WW
6: BT
10.7: WW
12.4: BT (lose .4 secs due to latency. You'll basically lose 2x your latency).
At time 18.4 this cycle stats again.
But with 8 sec WW cooldown its:
0: BT
1.7: WW
6: BT
9.7 WW
12: BT
At time 18 this cycle starts again.
No loss of time in the cycle due to that latency.
Basically I think that every 18 seconds, you lose 2xLatency worth of BT&WW damage with just 1/2 Imp WW, but you lose none with 2/2 Imp WW.
For .2 sec Latency, thats an increase of .4/18.4 = 2.2% of this damage, which is maybe 25-30% of one's damge, or a .6%dps increase.
Compare this to putting that rank as #3 in Precision. Getting the extra 1% hit is worth 1% more white damage (if over the hit cap), or maybe .4% more damage.
It seems to me that 2/2 Imp WW and 2/3 Precision might be better than 1/2 Imp WW and 3/3 Precision.
The difference seems very minor, and based on one's latency. Also, a more important factor might be wether 2/2 Imp WW yields and easier or more difficult rotation to follow.
Thoughts?
But Im looking at how it effects cast cycle (18 second cycle including 3 BT, 2 WW, and some chances to do other stuff).
I think that when you include latency into the equation (say .2 latency), you cant do the cast cycle correctly without 2/2 Imp WW:
0: BT
1.7: WW
6: BT
10.7: WW
12.4: BT (lose .4 secs due to latency. You'll basically lose 2x your latency).
At time 18.4 this cycle stats again.
But with 8 sec WW cooldown its:
0: BT
1.7: WW
6: BT
9.7 WW
12: BT
At time 18 this cycle starts again.
No loss of time in the cycle due to that latency.
Basically I think that every 18 seconds, you lose 2xLatency worth of BT&WW damage with just 1/2 Imp WW, but you lose none with 2/2 Imp WW.
For .2 sec Latency, thats an increase of .4/18.4 = 2.2% of this damage, which is maybe 25-30% of one's damge, or a .6%dps increase.
Compare this to putting that rank as #3 in Precision. Getting the extra 1% hit is worth 1% more white damage (if over the hit cap), or maybe .4% more damage.
It seems to me that 2/2 Imp WW and 2/3 Precision might be better than 1/2 Imp WW and 3/3 Precision.
The difference seems very minor, and based on one's latency. Also, a more important factor might be wether 2/2 Imp WW yields and easier or more difficult rotation to follow.
Thoughts?
There is a BT:WW:lag calculator buried somewhere beneath the zillion pages of this very thread. It will tell you if 0/2 1/2 2/2 is optimal for your avg day of lag.
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Originally Posted by Crimsonstorm
The difference seems very minor, and based on one's latency. Also, a more important factor might be wether 2/2 Imp WW yields and easier or more difficult rotation to follow. Thoughts? |
You don't lose anything by having 2/2 Imp. WW. You just have to make sure that you stay on the BT-WW-BT-WW-BT cycle which is the optimum one for dps. If you're used to using abilities at the moment they come off cd, having 2/2 WW might cause some problems (but, to be honest, that problem was already there before since non-dps time really can screw up your timing). I recommend using a castsequence macro with a reset time of 18 sec if you want to have 2/2 Imp. WW.
To Mjollnir: 0/2 will never be optimal, that will not let you do the 3BT/2WW cycle even on a "zero latency" day.
Fury Questions
Hey guys, first time poster here with a few questions.
Armory Link
Above is a link to my armory and talent build. I play a Fury Warrior on Executus and my main party in raids consists of an Enhancement Shaman, two Rogues, and two Fury Warriors. I've read through countless pages of this topic and I felt it necessary to make a post and gather up all the information I was looking for into one spot. My first question is concerning Weapon speed/enchants. As of BT Wednesday I used Talon of the Phoenix in my Main Hand and Blade of Infamy in my Off Hand, both of which enchanted with Mongoose. Tonight the new Badge Vender came out and I bought myself Vanir's Left Fist of Brutality and quickly enchanted it with Mongoose. Is a 2.5 speed offhand a tad too fast and what speed mainhand weapon would you recommend? Also, using a set of mongoose enchants seems really nice and the uptime is quite often, but is Executioner on the mainhand a better way to go? I haven't really researched it myself, but I have absolutely no armor penetration on my gear as of right now.
My second question is about stats. Unbuffed I have about 2100 AP, 205 HR (13%), and 31/32% crit. I keep reading about warriors only needing 9% hit, but that seems way too low. I thought I would aim for about 220 HR with up-and-coming upgrades from BT, but is that too much? Or even not enough? I know HR probably has a lot to do with weapon speed, so I am assuming two 2.6 speed weapons. And how about crit? I generally use an Agility Elixir for trash and when I don't have a Relentless Assault Flask on. With a sharpening stone, buffs, and all combat procs active I can get up to >40% crit (which doesn't include the rare times when I get a Feral Druid). Am I overdoing it with the crit, or is that about right? And finally, does my AP stay on par with my MR and Crit where they all currently are?
My third and final question for this post is about my spec. As 17/44, some key talents I picked up were 3/3 Precision and 2/2 Improved Execute. Are Improved Whirlwind and Weapon Mastery worth my time, and if so how many points should I spare and where should I take them from? I have read about people sparing points from Precision, or not even speccing into it (which seems weird to me, but I'm here to learn!).
Thanks again for anyone who read through that and I would appreciate any thoughts/comments you could give me. I look forward to hearing from you all and learning!
-Beastdale, Executus
Armory Link
Above is a link to my armory and talent build. I play a Fury Warrior on Executus and my main party in raids consists of an Enhancement Shaman, two Rogues, and two Fury Warriors. I've read through countless pages of this topic and I felt it necessary to make a post and gather up all the information I was looking for into one spot. My first question is concerning Weapon speed/enchants. As of BT Wednesday I used Talon of the Phoenix in my Main Hand and Blade of Infamy in my Off Hand, both of which enchanted with Mongoose. Tonight the new Badge Vender came out and I bought myself Vanir's Left Fist of Brutality and quickly enchanted it with Mongoose. Is a 2.5 speed offhand a tad too fast and what speed mainhand weapon would you recommend? Also, using a set of mongoose enchants seems really nice and the uptime is quite often, but is Executioner on the mainhand a better way to go? I haven't really researched it myself, but I have absolutely no armor penetration on my gear as of right now.
My second question is about stats. Unbuffed I have about 2100 AP, 205 HR (13%), and 31/32% crit. I keep reading about warriors only needing 9% hit, but that seems way too low. I thought I would aim for about 220 HR with up-and-coming upgrades from BT, but is that too much? Or even not enough? I know HR probably has a lot to do with weapon speed, so I am assuming two 2.6 speed weapons. And how about crit? I generally use an Agility Elixir for trash and when I don't have a Relentless Assault Flask on. With a sharpening stone, buffs, and all combat procs active I can get up to >40% crit (which doesn't include the rare times when I get a Feral Druid). Am I overdoing it with the crit, or is that about right? And finally, does my AP stay on par with my MR and Crit where they all currently are?
My third and final question for this post is about my spec. As 17/44, some key talents I picked up were 3/3 Precision and 2/2 Improved Execute. Are Improved Whirlwind and Weapon Mastery worth my time, and if so how many points should I spare and where should I take them from? I have read about people sparing points from Precision, or not even speccing into it (which seems weird to me, but I'm here to learn!).
Thanks again for anyone who read through that and I would appreciate any thoughts/comments you could give me. I look forward to hearing from you all and learning!
-Beastdale, Executus
1.) welcome to the boards
2.) lets look about your questions:
I think if you can afford the MH (Vanirs Right Fist) this would be the best weapon besides the Warglaives from Illidan which you can get in Hyjal and BT. Dualmongoose is nice but later on in BT and Hyjal gear you can get ~1200 passive armore ignore so with an Executionerproc you can get the Bossarmor very very low. I would enchant Exe on MH and Mongoose on OH.
9% hit is the hitcap at which special attacks can not miss. The hitcap for dw is 28%. 9% only means that the statvalue you get with hit becomes lower after 9% because it will only affect whitedmg. But you will get ~150 - 200 hitrating in BT gear so don´t worry about hit after 9%.
With more progress in BT you will see that the 3 old warrior stats stays on this level and you get a good bunch of Armorignore. Your values are good and you don´t have to worry about them.
Weapon Mastery >>> Execute. You will get a cheaper execute with 2T6. and Weaponmastery >> Precision. Weaponmastery provides anti dodge on both white and yellow attack -> it turns a dodge into a hit. Precision after 9% provides only whitehit. -> assuming 60% yellowdmg Weaponmastery is more than twice as good as Precision. Improved whirlwind is good to keep the cycle but you can live without it.
But i must say i would skill 0/2 imp Execute 2/2 Weaponmastery 3/3 Precision and 1/2 Imp WW. Piercing howl is imho not worth 1 point in raids.
2.) lets look about your questions:
I think if you can afford the MH (Vanirs Right Fist) this would be the best weapon besides the Warglaives from Illidan which you can get in Hyjal and BT. Dualmongoose is nice but later on in BT and Hyjal gear you can get ~1200 passive armore ignore so with an Executionerproc you can get the Bossarmor very very low. I would enchant Exe on MH and Mongoose on OH.
9% hit is the hitcap at which special attacks can not miss. The hitcap for dw is 28%. 9% only means that the statvalue you get with hit becomes lower after 9% because it will only affect whitedmg. But you will get ~150 - 200 hitrating in BT gear so don´t worry about hit after 9%.
With more progress in BT you will see that the 3 old warrior stats stays on this level and you get a good bunch of Armorignore. Your values are good and you don´t have to worry about them.
Weapon Mastery >>> Execute. You will get a cheaper execute with 2T6. and Weaponmastery >> Precision. Weaponmastery provides anti dodge on both white and yellow attack -> it turns a dodge into a hit. Precision after 9% provides only whitehit. -> assuming 60% yellowdmg Weaponmastery is more than twice as good as Precision. Improved whirlwind is good to keep the cycle but you can live without it.
But i must say i would skill 0/2 imp Execute 2/2 Weaponmastery 3/3 Precision and 1/2 Imp WW. Piercing howl is imho not worth 1 point in raids.
Beastdale, you may want to check the DPS warrior compendium as well, most of your questions are covered there.
I was thinking about something and came up with a funny idea.
Does Divine Intervention wipe threat?
Say for example, you were riding the tank's ass on aggro and it was coming close to the 20% mark on the boss, your execute, heroism, drums, haste pot, trinket, etc were ready to do to blow up the boss with execute.... But you are threat capped.
If a soulstone was not available, could an OOM or near-dead paladin pop a DI on the fury warrior to wipe his threat, keep his buffs, and allow him to goballs to the wall execute?
Does Divine Intervention wipe threat?
Say for example, you were riding the tank's ass on aggro and it was coming close to the 20% mark on the boss, your execute, heroism, drums, haste pot, trinket, etc were ready to do to blow up the boss with execute.... But you are threat capped.
If a soulstone was not available, could an OOM or near-dead paladin pop a DI on the fury warrior to wipe his threat, keep his buffs, and allow him to goballs to the wall execute?
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Originally Posted by landsoul
Does Divine Intervention wipe threat?
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Fury Questions
Hey guys, first time poster here with a few questions.
Armory Link
Above is a link to my armory and talent build. I play a Fury Warrior on Executus and my main party in raids consists of an Enhancement Shaman, two Rogues, and two Fury Warriors. I've read through countless pages of this topic and I felt it necessary to make a post and gather up all the information I was looking for into one spot. My first question is concerning Weapon speed/enchants. As of BT Wednesday I used Talon of the Phoenix in my Main Hand and Blade of Infamy in my Off Hand, both of which enchanted with Mongoose. Tonight the new Badge Vender came out and I bought myself Vanir's Left Fist of Brutality and quickly enchanted it with Mongoose. Is a 2.5 speed offhand a tad too fast and what speed mainhand weapon would you recommend? Also, using a set of mongoose enchants seems really nice and the uptime is quite often, but is Executioner on the mainhand a better way to go? I haven't really researched it myself, but I have absolutely no armor penetration on my gear as of right now.
My second question is about stats. Unbuffed I have about 2100 AP, 205 HR (13%), and 31/32% crit. I keep reading about warriors only needing 9% hit, but that seems way too low. I thought I would aim for about 220 HR with up-and-coming upgrades from BT, but is that too much? Or even not enough? I know HR probably has a lot to do with weapon speed, so I am assuming two 2.6 speed weapons. And how about crit? I generally use an Agility Elixir for trash and when I don't have a Relentless Assault Flask on. With a sharpening stone, buffs, and all combat procs active I can get up to >40% crit (which doesn't include the rare times when I get a Feral Druid). Am I overdoing it with the crit, or is that about right? And finally, does my AP stay on par with my MR and Crit where they all currently are?
My third and final question for this post is about my spec. As 17/44, some key talents I picked up were 3/3 Precision and 2/2 Improved Execute. Are Improved Whirlwind and Weapon Mastery worth my time, and if so how many points should I spare and where should I take them from? I have read about people sparing points from Precision, or not even speccing into it (which seems weird to me, but I'm here to learn!).
Thanks again for anyone who read through that and I would appreciate any thoughts/comments you could give me. I look forward to hearing from you all and learning!
-Beastdale, Executus
Armory Link
Above is a link to my armory and talent build. I play a Fury Warrior on Executus and my main party in raids consists of an Enhancement Shaman, two Rogues, and two Fury Warriors. I've read through countless pages of this topic and I felt it necessary to make a post and gather up all the information I was looking for into one spot. My first question is concerning Weapon speed/enchants. As of BT Wednesday I used Talon of the Phoenix in my Main Hand and Blade of Infamy in my Off Hand, both of which enchanted with Mongoose. Tonight the new Badge Vender came out and I bought myself Vanir's Left Fist of Brutality and quickly enchanted it with Mongoose. Is a 2.5 speed offhand a tad too fast and what speed mainhand weapon would you recommend? Also, using a set of mongoose enchants seems really nice and the uptime is quite often, but is Executioner on the mainhand a better way to go? I haven't really researched it myself, but I have absolutely no armor penetration on my gear as of right now.
My second question is about stats. Unbuffed I have about 2100 AP, 205 HR (13%), and 31/32% crit. I keep reading about warriors only needing 9% hit, but that seems way too low. I thought I would aim for about 220 HR with up-and-coming upgrades from BT, but is that too much? Or even not enough? I know HR probably has a lot to do with weapon speed, so I am assuming two 2.6 speed weapons. And how about crit? I generally use an Agility Elixir for trash and when I don't have a Relentless Assault Flask on. With a sharpening stone, buffs, and all combat procs active I can get up to >40% crit (which doesn't include the rare times when I get a Feral Druid). Am I overdoing it with the crit, or is that about right? And finally, does my AP stay on par with my MR and Crit where they all currently are?
My third and final question for this post is about my spec. As 17/44, some key talents I picked up were 3/3 Precision and 2/2 Improved Execute. Are Improved Whirlwind and Weapon Mastery worth my time, and if so how many points should I spare and where should I take them from? I have read about people sparing points from Precision, or not even speccing into it (which seems weird to me, but I'm here to learn!).
Thanks again for anyone who read through that and I would appreciate any thoughts/comments you could give me. I look forward to hearing from you all and learning!
-Beastdale, Executus
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Originally Posted by Beastdale
Hey guys, first time poster here with a few questions.
Armory Link Above is a link to my armory and talent build. I play a Fury Warrior on Executus and my main party in raids consists of an Enhancement Shaman, two Rogues, and two Fury Warriors. I've read through countless pages of this topic and I felt it necessary to make a post and gather up all the information I was looking for into one spot. My first question is concerning Weapon speed/enchants. As of BT Wednesday I used Talon of the Phoenix in my Main Hand and Blade of Infamy in my Off Hand, both of which enchanted with Mongoose. Tonight the new Badge Vender came out and I bought myself Vanir's Left Fist of Brutality and quickly enchanted it with Mongoose. Is a 2.5 speed offhand a tad too fast and what speed mainhand weapon would you recommend? Also, using a set of mongoose enchants seems really nice and the uptime is quite often, but is Executioner on the mainhand a better way to go? I haven't really researched it myself, but I have absolutely no armor penetration on my gear as of right now. My second question is about stats. Unbuffed I have about 2100 AP, 205 HR (13%), and 31/32% crit. I keep reading about warriors only needing 9% hit, but that seems way too low. I thought I would aim for about 220 HR with up-and-coming upgrades from BT, but is that too much? Or even not enough? I know HR probably has a lot to do with weapon speed, so I am assuming two 2.6 speed weapons. And how about crit? I generally use an Agility Elixir for trash and when I don't have a Relentless Assault Flask on. With a sharpening stone, buffs, and all combat procs active I can get up to >40% crit (which doesn't include the rare times when I get a Feral Druid). Am I overdoing it with the crit, or is that about right? And finally, does my AP stay on par with my MR and Crit where they all currently are? My third and final question for this post is about my spec. As 17/44, some key talents I picked up were 3/3 Precision and 2/2 Improved Execute. Are Improved Whirlwind and Weapon Mastery worth my time, and if so how many points should I spare and where should I take them from? I have read about people sparing points from Precision, or not even speccing into it (which seems weird to me, but I'm here to learn!). Thanks again for anyone who read through that and I would appreciate any thoughts/comments you could give me. I look forward to hearing from you all and learning! -Beastdale, Executus |
Someone answered(I think?) Most of your questions above, but I'll C+P the post anyway
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1.) welcome to the boards 2.) lets look about your questions: I think if you can afford the MH (Vanirs Right Fist) this would be the best weapon besides the Warglaives from Illidan which you can get in Hyjal and BT. Dualmongoose is nice but later on in BT and Hyjal gear you can get ~1200 passive armore ignore so with an Executionerproc you can get the Bossarmor very very low. I would enchant Exe on MH and Mongoose on OH. 9% hit is the hitcap at which special attacks can not miss. The hitcap for dw is 28%. 9% only means that the statvalue you get with hit becomes lower after 9% because it will only affect whitedmg. But you will get ~150 - 200 hitrating in BT gear so don´t worry about hit after 9%. With more progress in BT you will see that the 3 old warrior stats stays on this level and you get a good bunch of Armorignore. Your values are good and you don´t have to worry about them. Weapon Mastery >>> Execute. You will get a cheaper execute with 2T6. and Weaponmastery >> Precision. Weaponmastery provides anti dodge on both white and yellow attack -> it turns a dodge into a hit. Precision after 9% provides only whitehit. -> assuming 60% yellowdmg Weaponmastery is more than twice as good as Precision. Improved whirlwind is good to keep the cycle but you can live without it. But i must say i would skill 0/2 imp Execute 2/2 Weaponmastery 3/3 Precision and 1/2 Imp WW. Piercing howl is imho not worth 1 point in raids. |
Wow, my bad! I was scrolling back and then forward and it must have reposted somehow!
Anyways I want to say thanks very much for the valuable information! I have one more question, though. During an execute spam, what are the best speeds for weapons, and which enchants are better? I just picked up the Dagger of Bad Mojo from ZA and I was going to buy Vanir's Left Fist of Savagery from the vender. That would be 1.8/1.5. Thanks in advance!
Anyways I want to say thanks very much for the valuable information! I have one more question, though. During an execute spam, what are the best speeds for weapons, and which enchants are better? I just picked up the Dagger of Bad Mojo from ZA and I was going to buy Vanir's Left Fist of Savagery from the vender. That would be 1.8/1.5. Thanks in advance!
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Originally Posted by LodeRunner
Pretty sure it only drops threat as long as you have DI on you. As soon as it's clicked off you resume your spot on the threat list.
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Originally Posted by Beastdale
Wow, my bad! I was scrolling back and then forward and it must have reposted somehow!
Anyways I want to say thanks very much for the valuable information! I have one more question, though. During an execute spam, what are the best speeds for weapons, and which enchants are better? I just picked up the Dagger of Bad Mojo from ZA and I was going to buy Vanir's Left Fist of Savagery from the vender. That would be 1.8/1.5. Thanks in advance! |
Also, you should consider getting some arena points for a vengeful gladiator piece, the chest and helm are definitely amazing pieces to use. I'd probably say get the helm since it looks like you're using t4, and definitely regem that into a 8 crit or 4 str/4 crit
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Originally Posted by LodeRunner
Pretty sure it only drops threat as long as you have DI on you. As soon as it's clicked off you resume your spot on the threat list.
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Originally Posted by Hotspur
DI fully removes you from combat, it should drop all threat accumulated. BoP and Limited Invulnerability Potions are temporary and you resume your spot on the threat list. Putting the soulstone on the retribution paladin to DI a fury warrior on Void Reaver was fairly common, at least when aggro on Void Reaver was serious.
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Well. I stand corrected. I still wouldn't use a potion timer on it, though.
I have 3 sets of weapons now.
Old weapons
[Blade of Infamy] - MH - Executioner
[Rising Tide] - OH - Mongoose
New weapons
[Vanir's Right Fist of Brutality] - MH - Executioner
[Vanir's Left Fist of Brutality] - OH - Mongoose
Execute Weapons:
[Swiftsteel Bludgeon] - MH - Executioner
[Tracker's Blade] - OH - Mongoose
My personal philosophy is this: Executioner's, when up, is a 5-8% dps increase for me when it is up. I have some passive armor ignore. Mongoose is only like a 3-5% increase (small increase from haste, rest from additional crit). I can hit 40+ crit without a feral so the % return on the additional mongoose crit is nerfed some. Executioner up time is fairly strong but it does not stack. So, I put executioner on my MH. Then, I have a choice between increasing my Executioner up time or getting mongoose's full up time achieved from oh hits (which would be less than MH attacks but still significant). I take mongoose. The majority of your weapon damage on WW tends to be contributed by what should be a mountain load of effective AP (5000+ at times), so using a fast offhand only costs about 65 damage every 9 seconds pre-crit/armor. At the same time, it can smooth out your rage generation if you ever find yourself sitting on 20 rage in a miss streak waiting to BT. However, at high crit/ap/hit levels, the frequency of rage starvation is very small. It's rare, with the 2.5 weapons speed weapons, that I have to wait more than a few tenths of a second to continue my cycle.
I have 75 passive haste. This puts me at 2.39 attack speed (2.28 with drums). With flurry, I'm at 1.91 (1.82 with drums). I'm not, right now, in the habit of swapping weapons and losing a GCD in exchange to get to the 1.45/1.16 attack speed area my execute weapons put me at. For farming, when I don't WW much because things will die to a crit VR/BT, I use my execute weapons because it's fun to attack twice a second.
I'm enjoying my badge fists very much even if they are a little whacky looking.
Old weapons
[Blade of Infamy] - MH - Executioner
[Rising Tide] - OH - Mongoose
New weapons
[Vanir's Right Fist of Brutality] - MH - Executioner
[Vanir's Left Fist of Brutality] - OH - Mongoose
Execute Weapons:
[Swiftsteel Bludgeon] - MH - Executioner
[Tracker's Blade] - OH - Mongoose
My personal philosophy is this: Executioner's, when up, is a 5-8% dps increase for me when it is up. I have some passive armor ignore. Mongoose is only like a 3-5% increase (small increase from haste, rest from additional crit). I can hit 40+ crit without a feral so the % return on the additional mongoose crit is nerfed some. Executioner up time is fairly strong but it does not stack. So, I put executioner on my MH. Then, I have a choice between increasing my Executioner up time or getting mongoose's full up time achieved from oh hits (which would be less than MH attacks but still significant). I take mongoose. The majority of your weapon damage on WW tends to be contributed by what should be a mountain load of effective AP (5000+ at times), so using a fast offhand only costs about 65 damage every 9 seconds pre-crit/armor. At the same time, it can smooth out your rage generation if you ever find yourself sitting on 20 rage in a miss streak waiting to BT. However, at high crit/ap/hit levels, the frequency of rage starvation is very small. It's rare, with the 2.5 weapons speed weapons, that I have to wait more than a few tenths of a second to continue my cycle.
I have 75 passive haste. This puts me at 2.39 attack speed (2.28 with drums). With flurry, I'm at 1.91 (1.82 with drums). I'm not, right now, in the habit of swapping weapons and losing a GCD in exchange to get to the 1.45/1.16 attack speed area my execute weapons put me at. For farming, when I don't WW much because things will die to a crit VR/BT, I use my execute weapons because it's fun to attack twice a second.
I'm enjoying my badge fists very much even if they are a little whacky looking.
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Originally Posted by Nurru
You should look at what the present [Limited Invulnerability Potion] does
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DI most definitely drops aggro. We use it sometimes (not so often, I dont get threat capped that much, and on fights I do (sometimes brutallus - really depends on tanks luck mostly) there isnt that much room for a DI. Pally healer is usually a no go, and our Ret paladin probably would lose more dps from losing time/buffs (+ my time lost), then me just holding back a bit (which still means doing 2k dps).
Does anyone know if you buff battle shout with the sapphire on before the pull and swap it for a dps trinket if you still get the extra AP? I'm assuming you do. If so I wonder what the overall numbers look like for shorter fights doing this with 3 minute battle shout.
Hy everyone, i have a question
Is it possible that executioner on both weapons is better then executioner on mainhand and mongoose on offhand? In the spreadsheets for my gear, two executioners are slightly better, but I'm not sure if i should trust it cause in the new 2.4 spreadsheet, executioner on offhand isn't even an option
Is it possible that executioner on both weapons is better then executioner on mainhand and mongoose on offhand? In the spreadsheets for my gear, two executioners are slightly better, but I'm not sure if i should trust it cause in the new 2.4 spreadsheet, executioner on offhand isn't even an option
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Originally Posted by zaon
Does anyone know if you buff battle shout with the sapphire on before the pull and swap it for a dps trinket if you still get the extra AP? I'm assuming you do. If so I wonder what the overall numbers look like for shorter fights doing this with 3 minute battle shout.
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Originally Posted by zaon
Does anyone know if you buff battle shout with the sapphire on before the pull and swap it for a dps trinket if you still get the extra AP? I'm assuming you do. If so I wonder what the overall numbers look like for shorter fights doing this with 3 minute battle shout.
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Originally Posted by itami11
Hy everyone, i have a question
Is it possible that executioner on both weapons is better then executioner on mainhand and mongoose on offhand? In the spreadsheets for my gear, two executioners are slightly better, but I'm not sure if i should trust it cause in the new 2.4 spreadsheet, executioner on offhand isn't even an option |
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Originally Posted by Eledorian
That would be quite the waste of talent points (assuming it does work), booming voice adds absolutely nothing to dps (apart from saving a bit of rage since you don't have to rebuff BS as often).
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Doesn't work though so the discussion is moot.
I've read that one should only have 1/2 Imp WW, because if you have 2/2 then the cooldowns dont work out with it and Bloodthirst.
But Im looking at how it effects cast cycle (18 second cycle including 3 BT, 2 WW, and some chances to do other stuff).
I think that when you include latency into the equation (say .2 latency), you cant do the cast cycle correctly without 2/2 Imp WW:
0: BT
1.7: WW
6: BT
10.7: WW
12.4: BT (lose .4 secs due to latency. You'll basically lose 2x your latency).
At time 18.4 this cycle stats again.
But with 8 sec WW cooldown its:
0: BT
1.7: WW
6: BT
9.7 WW
12: BT
At time 18 this cycle starts again.
No loss of time in the cycle due to that latency.
Basically I think that every 18 seconds, you lose 2xLatency worth of BT&WW damage with just 1/2 Imp WW, but you lose none with 2/2 Imp WW.
For .2 sec Latency, thats an increase of .4/18.4 = 2.2% of this damage, which is maybe 25-30% of one's damge, or a .6%dps increase.
Compare this to putting that rank as #3 in Precision. Getting the extra 1% hit is worth 1% more white damage (if over the hit cap), or maybe .4% more damage.
It seems to me that 2/2 Imp WW and 2/3 Precision might be better than 1/2 Imp WW and 3/3 Precision.
The difference seems very minor, and based on one's latency. Also, a more important factor might be wether 2/2 Imp WW yields and easier or more difficult rotation to follow.
Thoughts?
But Im looking at how it effects cast cycle (18 second cycle including 3 BT, 2 WW, and some chances to do other stuff).
I think that when you include latency into the equation (say .2 latency), you cant do the cast cycle correctly without 2/2 Imp WW:
0: BT
1.7: WW
6: BT
10.7: WW
12.4: BT (lose .4 secs due to latency. You'll basically lose 2x your latency).
At time 18.4 this cycle stats again.
But with 8 sec WW cooldown its:
0: BT
1.7: WW
6: BT
9.7 WW
12: BT
At time 18 this cycle starts again.
No loss of time in the cycle due to that latency.
Basically I think that every 18 seconds, you lose 2xLatency worth of BT&WW damage with just 1/2 Imp WW, but you lose none with 2/2 Imp WW.
For .2 sec Latency, thats an increase of .4/18.4 = 2.2% of this damage, which is maybe 25-30% of one's damge, or a .6%dps increase.
Compare this to putting that rank as #3 in Precision. Getting the extra 1% hit is worth 1% more white damage (if over the hit cap), or maybe .4% more damage.
It seems to me that 2/2 Imp WW and 2/3 Precision might be better than 1/2 Imp WW and 3/3 Precision.
The difference seems very minor, and based on one's latency. Also, a more important factor might be wether 2/2 Imp WW yields and easier or more difficult rotation to follow.
Thoughts?
There is a BT:WW:lag calculator buried somewhere beneath the zillion pages of this very thread. It will tell you if 0/2 1/2 2/2 is optimal for your avg day of lag.
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Originally Posted by Crimsonstorm
The difference seems very minor, and based on one's latency. Also, a more important factor might be wether 2/2 Imp WW yields and easier or more difficult rotation to follow. Thoughts? |
You don't lose anything by having 2/2 Imp. WW. You just have to make sure that you stay on the BT-WW-BT-WW-BT cycle which is the optimum one for dps. If you're used to using abilities at the moment they come off cd, having 2/2 WW might cause some problems (but, to be honest, that problem was already there before since non-dps time really can screw up your timing). I recommend using a castsequence macro with a reset time of 18 sec if you want to have 2/2 Imp. WW.
To Mjollnir: 0/2 will never be optimal, that will not let you do the 3BT/2WW cycle even on a "zero latency" day.
Fury Questions
Hey guys, first time poster here with a few questions.
Armory Link
Above is a link to my armory and talent build. I play a Fury Warrior on Executus and my main party in raids consists of an Enhancement Shaman, two Rogues, and two Fury Warriors. I've read through countless pages of this topic and I felt it necessary to make a post and gather up all the information I was looking for into one spot. My first question is concerning Weapon speed/enchants. As of BT Wednesday I used Talon of the Phoenix in my Main Hand and Blade of Infamy in my Off Hand, both of which enchanted with Mongoose. Tonight the new Badge Vender came out and I bought myself Vanir's Left Fist of Brutality and quickly enchanted it with Mongoose. Is a 2.5 speed offhand a tad too fast and what speed mainhand weapon would you recommend? Also, using a set of mongoose enchants seems really nice and the uptime is quite often, but is Executioner on the mainhand a better way to go? I haven't really researched it myself, but I have absolutely no armor penetration on my gear as of right now.
My second question is about stats. Unbuffed I have about 2100 AP, 205 HR (13%), and 31/32% crit. I keep reading about warriors only needing 9% hit, but that seems way too low. I thought I would aim for about 220 HR with up-and-coming upgrades from BT, but is that too much? Or even not enough? I know HR probably has a lot to do with weapon speed, so I am assuming two 2.6 speed weapons. And how about crit? I generally use an Agility Elixir for trash and when I don't have a Relentless Assault Flask on. With a sharpening stone, buffs, and all combat procs active I can get up to >40% crit (which doesn't include the rare times when I get a Feral Druid). Am I overdoing it with the crit, or is that about right? And finally, does my AP stay on par with my MR and Crit where they all currently are?
My third and final question for this post is about my spec. As 17/44, some key talents I picked up were 3/3 Precision and 2/2 Improved Execute. Are Improved Whirlwind and Weapon Mastery worth my time, and if so how many points should I spare and where should I take them from? I have read about people sparing points from Precision, or not even speccing into it (which seems weird to me, but I'm here to learn!).
Thanks again for anyone who read through that and I would appreciate any thoughts/comments you could give me. I look forward to hearing from you all and learning!
-Beastdale, Executus
Armory Link
Above is a link to my armory and talent build. I play a Fury Warrior on Executus and my main party in raids consists of an Enhancement Shaman, two Rogues, and two Fury Warriors. I've read through countless pages of this topic and I felt it necessary to make a post and gather up all the information I was looking for into one spot. My first question is concerning Weapon speed/enchants. As of BT Wednesday I used Talon of the Phoenix in my Main Hand and Blade of Infamy in my Off Hand, both of which enchanted with Mongoose. Tonight the new Badge Vender came out and I bought myself Vanir's Left Fist of Brutality and quickly enchanted it with Mongoose. Is a 2.5 speed offhand a tad too fast and what speed mainhand weapon would you recommend? Also, using a set of mongoose enchants seems really nice and the uptime is quite often, but is Executioner on the mainhand a better way to go? I haven't really researched it myself, but I have absolutely no armor penetration on my gear as of right now.
My second question is about stats. Unbuffed I have about 2100 AP, 205 HR (13%), and 31/32% crit. I keep reading about warriors only needing 9% hit, but that seems way too low. I thought I would aim for about 220 HR with up-and-coming upgrades from BT, but is that too much? Or even not enough? I know HR probably has a lot to do with weapon speed, so I am assuming two 2.6 speed weapons. And how about crit? I generally use an Agility Elixir for trash and when I don't have a Relentless Assault Flask on. With a sharpening stone, buffs, and all combat procs active I can get up to >40% crit (which doesn't include the rare times when I get a Feral Druid). Am I overdoing it with the crit, or is that about right? And finally, does my AP stay on par with my MR and Crit where they all currently are?
My third and final question for this post is about my spec. As 17/44, some key talents I picked up were 3/3 Precision and 2/2 Improved Execute. Are Improved Whirlwind and Weapon Mastery worth my time, and if so how many points should I spare and where should I take them from? I have read about people sparing points from Precision, or not even speccing into it (which seems weird to me, but I'm here to learn!).
Thanks again for anyone who read through that and I would appreciate any thoughts/comments you could give me. I look forward to hearing from you all and learning!
-Beastdale, Executus
1.) welcome to the boards
2.) lets look about your questions:
I think if you can afford the MH (Vanirs Right Fist) this would be the best weapon besides the Warglaives from Illidan which you can get in Hyjal and BT. Dualmongoose is nice but later on in BT and Hyjal gear you can get ~1200 passive armore ignore so with an Executionerproc you can get the Bossarmor very very low. I would enchant Exe on MH and Mongoose on OH.
9% hit is the hitcap at which special attacks can not miss. The hitcap for dw is 28%. 9% only means that the statvalue you get with hit becomes lower after 9% because it will only affect whitedmg. But you will get ~150 - 200 hitrating in BT gear so don´t worry about hit after 9%.
With more progress in BT you will see that the 3 old warrior stats stays on this level and you get a good bunch of Armorignore. Your values are good and you don´t have to worry about them.
Weapon Mastery >>> Execute. You will get a cheaper execute with 2T6. and Weaponmastery >> Precision. Weaponmastery provides anti dodge on both white and yellow attack -> it turns a dodge into a hit. Precision after 9% provides only whitehit. -> assuming 60% yellowdmg Weaponmastery is more than twice as good as Precision. Improved whirlwind is good to keep the cycle but you can live without it.
But i must say i would skill 0/2 imp Execute 2/2 Weaponmastery 3/3 Precision and 1/2 Imp WW. Piercing howl is imho not worth 1 point in raids.
2.) lets look about your questions:
I think if you can afford the MH (Vanirs Right Fist) this would be the best weapon besides the Warglaives from Illidan which you can get in Hyjal and BT. Dualmongoose is nice but later on in BT and Hyjal gear you can get ~1200 passive armore ignore so with an Executionerproc you can get the Bossarmor very very low. I would enchant Exe on MH and Mongoose on OH.
9% hit is the hitcap at which special attacks can not miss. The hitcap for dw is 28%. 9% only means that the statvalue you get with hit becomes lower after 9% because it will only affect whitedmg. But you will get ~150 - 200 hitrating in BT gear so don´t worry about hit after 9%.
With more progress in BT you will see that the 3 old warrior stats stays on this level and you get a good bunch of Armorignore. Your values are good and you don´t have to worry about them.
Weapon Mastery >>> Execute. You will get a cheaper execute with 2T6. and Weaponmastery >> Precision. Weaponmastery provides anti dodge on both white and yellow attack -> it turns a dodge into a hit. Precision after 9% provides only whitehit. -> assuming 60% yellowdmg Weaponmastery is more than twice as good as Precision. Improved whirlwind is good to keep the cycle but you can live without it.
But i must say i would skill 0/2 imp Execute 2/2 Weaponmastery 3/3 Precision and 1/2 Imp WW. Piercing howl is imho not worth 1 point in raids.
Beastdale, you may want to check the DPS warrior compendium as well, most of your questions are covered there.
I was thinking about something and came up with a funny idea.
Does Divine Intervention wipe threat?
Say for example, you were riding the tank's ass on aggro and it was coming close to the 20% mark on the boss, your execute, heroism, drums, haste pot, trinket, etc were ready to do to blow up the boss with execute.... But you are threat capped.
If a soulstone was not available, could an OOM or near-dead paladin pop a DI on the fury warrior to wipe his threat, keep his buffs, and allow him to goballs to the wall execute?
Does Divine Intervention wipe threat?
Say for example, you were riding the tank's ass on aggro and it was coming close to the 20% mark on the boss, your execute, heroism, drums, haste pot, trinket, etc were ready to do to blow up the boss with execute.... But you are threat capped.
If a soulstone was not available, could an OOM or near-dead paladin pop a DI on the fury warrior to wipe his threat, keep his buffs, and allow him to goballs to the wall execute?
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Originally Posted by landsoul
Does Divine Intervention wipe threat?
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Fury Questions
Hey guys, first time poster here with a few questions.
Armory Link
Above is a link to my armory and talent build. I play a Fury Warrior on Executus and my main party in raids consists of an Enhancement Shaman, two Rogues, and two Fury Warriors. I've read through countless pages of this topic and I felt it necessary to make a post and gather up all the information I was looking for into one spot. My first question is concerning Weapon speed/enchants. As of BT Wednesday I used Talon of the Phoenix in my Main Hand and Blade of Infamy in my Off Hand, both of which enchanted with Mongoose. Tonight the new Badge Vender came out and I bought myself Vanir's Left Fist of Brutality and quickly enchanted it with Mongoose. Is a 2.5 speed offhand a tad too fast and what speed mainhand weapon would you recommend? Also, using a set of mongoose enchants seems really nice and the uptime is quite often, but is Executioner on the mainhand a better way to go? I haven't really researched it myself, but I have absolutely no armor penetration on my gear as of right now.
My second question is about stats. Unbuffed I have about 2100 AP, 205 HR (13%), and 31/32% crit. I keep reading about warriors only needing 9% hit, but that seems way too low. I thought I would aim for about 220 HR with up-and-coming upgrades from BT, but is that too much? Or even not enough? I know HR probably has a lot to do with weapon speed, so I am assuming two 2.6 speed weapons. And how about crit? I generally use an Agility Elixir for trash and when I don't have a Relentless Assault Flask on. With a sharpening stone, buffs, and all combat procs active I can get up to >40% crit (which doesn't include the rare times when I get a Feral Druid). Am I overdoing it with the crit, or is that about right? And finally, does my AP stay on par with my MR and Crit where they all currently are?
My third and final question for this post is about my spec. As 17/44, some key talents I picked up were 3/3 Precision and 2/2 Improved Execute. Are Improved Whirlwind and Weapon Mastery worth my time, and if so how many points should I spare and where should I take them from? I have read about people sparing points from Precision, or not even speccing into it (which seems weird to me, but I'm here to learn!).
Thanks again for anyone who read through that and I would appreciate any thoughts/comments you could give me. I look forward to hearing from you all and learning!
-Beastdale, Executus
Armory Link
Above is a link to my armory and talent build. I play a Fury Warrior on Executus and my main party in raids consists of an Enhancement Shaman, two Rogues, and two Fury Warriors. I've read through countless pages of this topic and I felt it necessary to make a post and gather up all the information I was looking for into one spot. My first question is concerning Weapon speed/enchants. As of BT Wednesday I used Talon of the Phoenix in my Main Hand and Blade of Infamy in my Off Hand, both of which enchanted with Mongoose. Tonight the new Badge Vender came out and I bought myself Vanir's Left Fist of Brutality and quickly enchanted it with Mongoose. Is a 2.5 speed offhand a tad too fast and what speed mainhand weapon would you recommend? Also, using a set of mongoose enchants seems really nice and the uptime is quite often, but is Executioner on the mainhand a better way to go? I haven't really researched it myself, but I have absolutely no armor penetration on my gear as of right now.
My second question is about stats. Unbuffed I have about 2100 AP, 205 HR (13%), and 31/32% crit. I keep reading about warriors only needing 9% hit, but that seems way too low. I thought I would aim for about 220 HR with up-and-coming upgrades from BT, but is that too much? Or even not enough? I know HR probably has a lot to do with weapon speed, so I am assuming two 2.6 speed weapons. And how about crit? I generally use an Agility Elixir for trash and when I don't have a Relentless Assault Flask on. With a sharpening stone, buffs, and all combat procs active I can get up to >40% crit (which doesn't include the rare times when I get a Feral Druid). Am I overdoing it with the crit, or is that about right? And finally, does my AP stay on par with my MR and Crit where they all currently are?
My third and final question for this post is about my spec. As 17/44, some key talents I picked up were 3/3 Precision and 2/2 Improved Execute. Are Improved Whirlwind and Weapon Mastery worth my time, and if so how many points should I spare and where should I take them from? I have read about people sparing points from Precision, or not even speccing into it (which seems weird to me, but I'm here to learn!).
Thanks again for anyone who read through that and I would appreciate any thoughts/comments you could give me. I look forward to hearing from you all and learning!
-Beastdale, Executus
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Originally Posted by Beastdale
Hey guys, first time poster here with a few questions.
Armory Link Above is a link to my armory and talent build. I play a Fury Warrior on Executus and my main party in raids consists of an Enhancement Shaman, two Rogues, and two Fury Warriors. I've read through countless pages of this topic and I felt it necessary to make a post and gather up all the information I was looking for into one spot. My first question is concerning Weapon speed/enchants. As of BT Wednesday I used Talon of the Phoenix in my Main Hand and Blade of Infamy in my Off Hand, both of which enchanted with Mongoose. Tonight the new Badge Vender came out and I bought myself Vanir's Left Fist of Brutality and quickly enchanted it with Mongoose. Is a 2.5 speed offhand a tad too fast and what speed mainhand weapon would you recommend? Also, using a set of mongoose enchants seems really nice and the uptime is quite often, but is Executioner on the mainhand a better way to go? I haven't really researched it myself, but I have absolutely no armor penetration on my gear as of right now. My second question is about stats. Unbuffed I have about 2100 AP, 205 HR (13%), and 31/32% crit. I keep reading about warriors only needing 9% hit, but that seems way too low. I thought I would aim for about 220 HR with up-and-coming upgrades from BT, but is that too much? Or even not enough? I know HR probably has a lot to do with weapon speed, so I am assuming two 2.6 speed weapons. And how about crit? I generally use an Agility Elixir for trash and when I don't have a Relentless Assault Flask on. With a sharpening stone, buffs, and all combat procs active I can get up to >40% crit (which doesn't include the rare times when I get a Feral Druid). Am I overdoing it with the crit, or is that about right? And finally, does my AP stay on par with my MR and Crit where they all currently are? My third and final question for this post is about my spec. As 17/44, some key talents I picked up were 3/3 Precision and 2/2 Improved Execute. Are Improved Whirlwind and Weapon Mastery worth my time, and if so how many points should I spare and where should I take them from? I have read about people sparing points from Precision, or not even speccing into it (which seems weird to me, but I'm here to learn!). Thanks again for anyone who read through that and I would appreciate any thoughts/comments you could give me. I look forward to hearing from you all and learning! -Beastdale, Executus |
Someone answered(I think?) Most of your questions above, but I'll C+P the post anyway
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1.) welcome to the boards 2.) lets look about your questions: I think if you can afford the MH (Vanirs Right Fist) this would be the best weapon besides the Warglaives from Illidan which you can get in Hyjal and BT. Dualmongoose is nice but later on in BT and Hyjal gear you can get ~1200 passive armore ignore so with an Executionerproc you can get the Bossarmor very very low. I would enchant Exe on MH and Mongoose on OH. 9% hit is the hitcap at which special attacks can not miss. The hitcap for dw is 28%. 9% only means that the statvalue you get with hit becomes lower after 9% because it will only affect whitedmg. But you will get ~150 - 200 hitrating in BT gear so don´t worry about hit after 9%. With more progress in BT you will see that the 3 old warrior stats stays on this level and you get a good bunch of Armorignore. Your values are good and you don´t have to worry about them. Weapon Mastery >>> Execute. You will get a cheaper execute with 2T6. and Weaponmastery >> Precision. Weaponmastery provides anti dodge on both white and yellow attack -> it turns a dodge into a hit. Precision after 9% provides only whitehit. -> assuming 60% yellowdmg Weaponmastery is more than twice as good as Precision. Improved whirlwind is good to keep the cycle but you can live without it. But i must say i would skill 0/2 imp Execute 2/2 Weaponmastery 3/3 Precision and 1/2 Imp WW. Piercing howl is imho not worth 1 point in raids. |
Wow, my bad! I was scrolling back and then forward and it must have reposted somehow!
Anyways I want to say thanks very much for the valuable information! I have one more question, though. During an execute spam, what are the best speeds for weapons, and which enchants are better? I just picked up the Dagger of Bad Mojo from ZA and I was going to buy Vanir's Left Fist of Savagery from the vender. That would be 1.8/1.5. Thanks in advance!
Anyways I want to say thanks very much for the valuable information! I have one more question, though. During an execute spam, what are the best speeds for weapons, and which enchants are better? I just picked up the Dagger of Bad Mojo from ZA and I was going to buy Vanir's Left Fist of Savagery from the vender. That would be 1.8/1.5. Thanks in advance!
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Originally Posted by LodeRunner
Pretty sure it only drops threat as long as you have DI on you. As soon as it's clicked off you resume your spot on the threat list.
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Originally Posted by Beastdale
Wow, my bad! I was scrolling back and then forward and it must have reposted somehow!
Anyways I want to say thanks very much for the valuable information! I have one more question, though. During an execute spam, what are the best speeds for weapons, and which enchants are better? I just picked up the Dagger of Bad Mojo from ZA and I was going to buy Vanir's Left Fist of Savagery from the vender. That would be 1.8/1.5. Thanks in advance! |
Also, you should consider getting some arena points for a vengeful gladiator piece, the chest and helm are definitely amazing pieces to use. I'd probably say get the helm since it looks like you're using t4, and definitely regem that into a 8 crit or 4 str/4 crit
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Originally Posted by LodeRunner
Pretty sure it only drops threat as long as you have DI on you. As soon as it's clicked off you resume your spot on the threat list.
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Originally Posted by Hotspur
DI fully removes you from combat, it should drop all threat accumulated. BoP and Limited Invulnerability Potions are temporary and you resume your spot on the threat list. Putting the soulstone on the retribution paladin to DI a fury warrior on Void Reaver was fairly common, at least when aggro on Void Reaver was serious.
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Well. I stand corrected. I still wouldn't use a potion timer on it, though.
I have 3 sets of weapons now.
Old weapons
[Blade of Infamy] - MH - Executioner
[Rising Tide] - OH - Mongoose
New weapons
[Vanir's Right Fist of Brutality] - MH - Executioner
[Vanir's Left Fist of Brutality] - OH - Mongoose
Execute Weapons:
[Swiftsteel Bludgeon] - MH - Executioner
[Tracker's Blade] - OH - Mongoose
My personal philosophy is this: Executioner's, when up, is a 5-8% dps increase for me when it is up. I have some passive armor ignore. Mongoose is only like a 3-5% increase (small increase from haste, rest from additional crit). I can hit 40+ crit without a feral so the % return on the additional mongoose crit is nerfed some. Executioner up time is fairly strong but it does not stack. So, I put executioner on my MH. Then, I have a choice between increasing my Executioner up time or getting mongoose's full up time achieved from oh hits (which would be less than MH attacks but still significant). I take mongoose. The majority of your weapon damage on WW tends to be contributed by what should be a mountain load of effective AP (5000+ at times), so using a fast offhand only costs about 65 damage every 9 seconds pre-crit/armor. At the same time, it can smooth out your rage generation if you ever find yourself sitting on 20 rage in a miss streak waiting to BT. However, at high crit/ap/hit levels, the frequency of rage starvation is very small. It's rare, with the 2.5 weapons speed weapons, that I have to wait more than a few tenths of a second to continue my cycle.
I have 75 passive haste. This puts me at 2.39 attack speed (2.28 with drums). With flurry, I'm at 1.91 (1.82 with drums). I'm not, right now, in the habit of swapping weapons and losing a GCD in exchange to get to the 1.45/1.16 attack speed area my execute weapons put me at. For farming, when I don't WW much because things will die to a crit VR/BT, I use my execute weapons because it's fun to attack twice a second.
I'm enjoying my badge fists very much even if they are a little whacky looking.
Old weapons
[Blade of Infamy] - MH - Executioner
[Rising Tide] - OH - Mongoose
New weapons
[Vanir's Right Fist of Brutality] - MH - Executioner
[Vanir's Left Fist of Brutality] - OH - Mongoose
Execute Weapons:
[Swiftsteel Bludgeon] - MH - Executioner
[Tracker's Blade] - OH - Mongoose
My personal philosophy is this: Executioner's, when up, is a 5-8% dps increase for me when it is up. I have some passive armor ignore. Mongoose is only like a 3-5% increase (small increase from haste, rest from additional crit). I can hit 40+ crit without a feral so the % return on the additional mongoose crit is nerfed some. Executioner up time is fairly strong but it does not stack. So, I put executioner on my MH. Then, I have a choice between increasing my Executioner up time or getting mongoose's full up time achieved from oh hits (which would be less than MH attacks but still significant). I take mongoose. The majority of your weapon damage on WW tends to be contributed by what should be a mountain load of effective AP (5000+ at times), so using a fast offhand only costs about 65 damage every 9 seconds pre-crit/armor. At the same time, it can smooth out your rage generation if you ever find yourself sitting on 20 rage in a miss streak waiting to BT. However, at high crit/ap/hit levels, the frequency of rage starvation is very small. It's rare, with the 2.5 weapons speed weapons, that I have to wait more than a few tenths of a second to continue my cycle.
I have 75 passive haste. This puts me at 2.39 attack speed (2.28 with drums). With flurry, I'm at 1.91 (1.82 with drums). I'm not, right now, in the habit of swapping weapons and losing a GCD in exchange to get to the 1.45/1.16 attack speed area my execute weapons put me at. For farming, when I don't WW much because things will die to a crit VR/BT, I use my execute weapons because it's fun to attack twice a second.
I'm enjoying my badge fists very much even if they are a little whacky looking.
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Originally Posted by Nurru
You should look at what the present [Limited Invulnerability Potion] does
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DI most definitely drops aggro. We use it sometimes (not so often, I dont get threat capped that much, and on fights I do (sometimes brutallus - really depends on tanks luck mostly) there isnt that much room for a DI. Pally healer is usually a no go, and our Ret paladin probably would lose more dps from losing time/buffs (+ my time lost), then me just holding back a bit (which still means doing 2k dps).
Weapons
I am currently using "The Decapitator" in my MH and "Akil'zon's Talonblade" in my OH, i have both enchanted with +20 strength and am pry gonna switch the talonblade over to a mongoose. But my question is should i have these weapons in their current slots or swap them... i used to firmly believe that i should keep the decapitator MH and talonblade OH but have heard some convincing arguments the other way over the past few days?
Read thorugh the Compendium. There's a section directly addressing Weapon Speeds.
I would be curious as to why someone is telling you that a Fast/Slow setup is beneficial.
I would be curious as to why someone is telling you that a Fast/Slow setup is beneficial.
So, our guild is now at brutallus, and while we do have enough RDPS to down him, we're currently pretty much training to get our tanks to live through the beating.
That said, I have severe problems with my personal DPS. I specced to 33/27/0 for blood frenzy and have (IMO) excellent gear. However, I seem to be underperforming pretty badly, only getting to ~1350-ish DPS, while the gear should allow for much higher DPS. In the following WWS I had a retri paladin, 2 drums and an enh shaman in the group.
Armory:
The World of Warcraft Armory
WWS from last night's best attempt:
Wow Web Stats
Now, admittedly I have hit below the cap - this can easily be addressed - I tested with the badge xbow and without and could not discern between them with regards to DPS.
So, I must be doing something wrong. I slam immediately after white hits - with my ~100 ping my slams generally land within 0.8 to 1.4 seconds after the white hit. This is something I need to train on, but to be honest quartz's swing meter is too erratic to get much better results. One other thing I've noticed is a) many times I run out of rage, and b) if I rotate white -> slam ->MS -> white -> slam -> WW -> white -> slam ->MS , the next rotation is just white-> slam because both MS and WW are cooling down. Is this normal?
That said, I have severe problems with my personal DPS. I specced to 33/27/0 for blood frenzy and have (IMO) excellent gear. However, I seem to be underperforming pretty badly, only getting to ~1350-ish DPS, while the gear should allow for much higher DPS. In the following WWS I had a retri paladin, 2 drums and an enh shaman in the group.
Armory:
The World of Warcraft Armory
WWS from last night's best attempt:
Wow Web Stats
Now, admittedly I have hit below the cap - this can easily be addressed - I tested with the badge xbow and without and could not discern between them with regards to DPS.
So, I must be doing something wrong. I slam immediately after white hits - with my ~100 ping my slams generally land within 0.8 to 1.4 seconds after the white hit. This is something I need to train on, but to be honest quartz's swing meter is too erratic to get much better results. One other thing I've noticed is a) many times I run out of rage, and b) if I rotate white -> slam ->MS -> white -> slam -> WW -> white -> slam ->MS , the next rotation is just white-> slam because both MS and WW are cooling down. Is this normal?
Edited onPatch 2.4.1
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Originally Posted by dahakon
So, our guild is now at brutallus, and while we do have enough RDPS to down him, we're currently pretty much training to get our tanks to live through the beating.
That said, I have severe problems with my personal DPS. I specced to 33/27/0 for blood frenzy and have (IMO) excellent gear. However, I seem to be underperforming pretty badly, only getting to ~1350-ish DPS, while the gear should allow for much higher DPS. In the following WWS I had a retri paladin, 2 drums and an enh shaman in the group. Armory: The World of Warcraft Armory WWS from last night's best attempt: Wow Web Stats Now, admittedly I have hit below the cap - this can easily be addressed - I tested with the badge xbow and without and could not discern between them with regards to DPS. So, I must be doing something wrong. I slam immediately after white hits - with my ~100 ping my slams generally land within 0.8 to 1.4 seconds after the white hit. This is something I need to train on, but to be honest quartz's swing meter is too erratic to get much better results. One other thing I've noticed is a) many times I run out of rage, and b) if I rotate white -> slam ->MS -> white -> slam -> WW -> white -> slam ->MS , the next rotation is just white-> slam because both MS and WW are cooling down. Is this normal? |
90% of the trouble can be summed up to Brutallus' armour. Not being able to complete DPS rotations due to rage starvation will really mess with our DPS. I also noticed that the raid isnt getting a lock to put up CoR on Brut? That will hurt all physical DPS (but then again your spec doesn't include imp demo, so might not be such a good idea)
Another thing - it might be worth ditching the standard quartz swing timer with a modified or specially designed warrior swinger like dr_ALLCOM3's swingersclub:
WoWInterface Downloads : Combat Mods : Doc's Swingerclub
I've had similar DPS (1350-1450) on attempts, but most kills I've climbed back up to 1500-1600 at the end with Heroism/Reck/DW execute time.
Last edited by Rook : 04/23/08 at 3:11 AM.
Yeah, reason we don't put CoR up is we have problems with tanks getting instagibbed. Also, our MT has 5/5 imp demo.. Dunno if he has time to keep it up, however. Seeing as I have time to keep demo up with the rotation we might have something there.
Thanks for the input.
Thanks for the input.
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Originally Posted by Wump
Read thorugh the Compendium. There's a section directly addressing Weapon Speeds.
I would be curious as to why someone is telling you that a Fast/Slow setup is beneficial. |
For cycle damage a slow/fast combo will be better than a fast/slow. For cycle damage this is due to that WW will hit for lower with fast/slow than slow/fast (since the hardhitting weapon will have a 37.5% damage penalty in that setup). There is no gain in using fast/slow over slow/fast from what I can think of.
That aside, you will still not lose more than 1-2% of dps when going to a fast/slow over a low/fast combo. If you get a offhand only weapon drop you may have situation where the best possible weapon combo will be fast/slow. It works just fine, it's just not optimal.
Edited onPatch 2.4.1
I personally don't see the point in using anything other than slow/slow for Execute at higher gear levels. You want to be able to hit Execute every GCD, but it seems like such a waste to swap in even a single fast weapon if you have Flurry and Bloodlust active. Add in drums and a haste potion, and even a 2.8 speed weapon is going to beat the GCD, even if it's only for 15 seconds. After that it's mostly about cycle damage. If you can get near the same auto attack damage by swapping weapons, it might be worth it for you, but with so many haste sources available, I don't really see faster weapons pulling ahead except for maybe on something like Brutallus that has a longer Execute phase than normal. You'll also almost be guaranteed to have the rage to hit BT even after just blowing all of it on a previous Execute while hasted using slow/slow. Another thing is that with slow/slow at 3500 AP, WW beats a 25 rage Execute and has an additional chance to crit.
Last edited by Graul : 04/23/08 at 9:08 AM.
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Originally Posted by Gruntle
There were some claims by Grim13 that execute damage is highest with a fast/slow combo a few months ago, but I think he's revised the models since then.
For cycle damage a slow/fast combo will be better than a fast/slow. For cycle damage this is due to that WW will hit for lower with fast/slow than slow/fast (since the hardhitting weapon will have a 37.5% damage penalty in that setup). There is no gain in using fast/slow over slow/fast from what I can think of. That aside, you will still not lose more than 1-2% of dps when going to a fast/slow over a low/fast combo. If you get a offhand only weapon drop you may have situation where the best possible weapon combo will be fast/slow. It works just fine, it's just not optimal. |
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Originally Posted by dahakon
So, our guild is now at brutallus, and while we do have enough RDPS to down him, we're currently pretty much training to get our tanks to live through the beating.
That said, I have severe problems with my personal DPS. I specced to 33/27/0 for blood frenzy and have (IMO) excellent gear. However, I seem to be underperforming pretty badly, only getting to ~1350-ish DPS, while the gear should allow for much higher DPS. In the following WWS I had a retri paladin, 2 drums and an enh shaman in the group. Armory: The World of Warcraft Armory WWS from last night's best attempt: Wow Web Stats Now, admittedly I have hit below the cap - this can easily be addressed - I tested with the badge xbow and without and could not discern between them with regards to DPS. So, I must be doing something wrong. I slam immediately after white hits - with my ~100 ping my slams generally land within 0.8 to 1.4 seconds after the white hit. This is something I need to train on, but to be honest quartz's swing meter is too erratic to get much better results. One other thing I've noticed is a) many times I run out of rage, and b) if I rotate white -> slam ->MS -> white -> slam -> WW -> white -> slam ->MS , the next rotation is just white-> slam because both MS and WW are cooling down. Is this normal? |
Also, could try going with Surefooted and then STR food instead of hit food
Like someone said earlier get Doc's Swingerclub because it is great for slam dmg.
Having never done Brutallus myself I'm in no position to judge damage, but your loss of damage is probably due to his high armor. What do you do on average to other bosses?
Hey guys 
Long time troller here, and picked up loads of things from these forums (for other classes as well), but now I've actually got some questions of my own.
Let me just start off by giving you my armory link: Armory - Werelds of Burning Steppes.
As you can see, I'm 17/44 and the GM of my guild - we're at 5/5 MH and 7/9 BT at the moment. I generally lead the progress raids, but this hasn't really hindered my DPS that much. Probably the only fight where it really held me back when we were trying to get him down, was Archimonde.
Now, my questions come in duplex, but let me first state that I have used the 2.4 Fury DPS spreadsheet, but the numbers I got from it didn't really convince me from changing anything.
1. Is it worth changing either of my weapons with any of the MH/BT (bar the legendaries) weapons or Badge weapons (which won't be available to me for a few weeks, slow realm)?
I don't see the use of replacing Dragonstrike with any of them, as the haste proc simply gets better as the rest of my gear improves. As far as the Talon goes, the matching speed seems to be very beneficial, and when it comes to stats/damage, it's pretty much on par with most of the MH/BT weapons.
The only useful change I can see, would be getting the dual 2.5 speed fists that come available with badges. According to the spreadsheet, this would actually give me a ~20 DPS increase, which would make it worth it. It'll be several weeks before these become available though.
2. As far as trinket choice goes, is there much else I can choose apart from the ones I have right now?
I'm trying to get DST, but after a year of farming Gruul (I started out in TBC on a Hunter), I have yet to see the first drop.
Right now, the only other trinket I'm looking at is MotB, although I suppose Berserker's call would come close?
Thanks for reading my silly post.
Long time troller here, and picked up loads of things from these forums (for other classes as well), but now I've actually got some questions of my own.
Let me just start off by giving you my armory link: Armory - Werelds of Burning Steppes.
As you can see, I'm 17/44 and the GM of my guild - we're at 5/5 MH and 7/9 BT at the moment. I generally lead the progress raids, but this hasn't really hindered my DPS that much. Probably the only fight where it really held me back when we were trying to get him down, was Archimonde.
Now, my questions come in duplex, but let me first state that I have used the 2.4 Fury DPS spreadsheet, but the numbers I got from it didn't really convince me from changing anything.
1. Is it worth changing either of my weapons with any of the MH/BT (bar the legendaries) weapons or Badge weapons (which won't be available to me for a few weeks, slow realm)?
I don't see the use of replacing Dragonstrike with any of them, as the haste proc simply gets better as the rest of my gear improves. As far as the Talon goes, the matching speed seems to be very beneficial, and when it comes to stats/damage, it's pretty much on par with most of the MH/BT weapons.
The only useful change I can see, would be getting the dual 2.5 speed fists that come available with badges. According to the spreadsheet, this would actually give me a ~20 DPS increase, which would make it worth it. It'll be several weeks before these become available though.
2. As far as trinket choice goes, is there much else I can choose apart from the ones I have right now?
I'm trying to get DST, but after a year of farming Gruul (I started out in TBC on a Hunter), I have yet to see the first drop.
Right now, the only other trinket I'm looking at is MotB, although I suppose Berserker's call would come close?
Thanks for reading my silly post.
Replacing your MH is probably a miniscule difference at best until Warglaives(Which will probably go to rogues first) I'd wait on spending your badges on the fists tbh, SWP trash drops a ridiculous fist, and any weapons you pick up won't be a huge difference in DPS if someone else wants them first.
DST or MoTB would probably be fairly nice upgrades for you, but for the time being I'm pretty sure those are just fine, Tsunami and Shard are both pretty hot trinkets. Sharahz BP would probably be nice, or Vengeful Gladiator, Grips of Silent Justice are pretty nifty too unless you're going for 4 pc
DST or MoTB would probably be fairly nice upgrades for you, but for the time being I'm pretty sure those are just fine, Tsunami and Shard are both pretty hot trinkets. Sharahz BP would probably be nice, or Vengeful Gladiator, Grips of Silent Justice are pretty nifty too unless you're going for 4 pc
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Originally Posted by abrb1234
I can definetely see where your coming from, but what's your opinion on a fast/fast combo?
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I haven't really experienced MH/BT or SWP yet, but theoretically dual fast weapons should really beat the shit out of slow ones at very high gear levels. As soon as you're able to do HS on every or close to every swing the extra dps from the HS bonus damage should be bigger than the extra dps from WW. HS also work very fine with haste once you get to that state (no other yellow damage abilities really scale with haste). Maybe I'm out on a limb here though, I'm not sure how close to using HS on every swing people are in the T6+ content.
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Originally Posted by Werelds
2. As far as trinket choice goes, is there much else I can choose apart from the ones I have right now? I'm trying to get DST, but after a year of farming Gruul (I started out in TBC on a Hunter), I have yet to see the first drop. Right now, the only other trinket I'm looking at is MotB, although I suppose Berserker's call would come close? |
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Originally Posted by Graul
I personally don't see the point in using anything other than slow/slow for Execute at higher gear levels. You want to be able to hit Execute every GCD, but it seems like such a waste to swap in even a single fast weapon if you have Flurry and Bloodlust active. Add in drums and a haste potion, and even a 2.8 speed weapon is going to beat the GCD, even if it's only for 15 seconds. After that it's mostly about cycle damage. If you can get near the same auto attack damage by swapping weapons, it might be worth it for you, but with so many haste sources available, I don't really see faster weapons pulling ahead except for maybe on something like Brutallus that has a longer Execute phase than normal. You'll also almost be guaranteed to have the rage to hit BT even after just blowing all of it on a previous Execute while hasted using slow/slow. Another thing is that with slow/slow at 3500 AP, WW beats a 25 rage Execute and has an additional chance to crit.
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Originally Posted by dahakon
So, our guild is now at brutallus, and while we do have enough RDPS to down him, we're currently pretty much training to get our tanks to live through the beating.
That said, I have severe problems with my personal DPS. I specced to 33/27/0 for blood frenzy and have (IMO) excellent gear. However, I seem to be underperforming pretty badly, only getting to ~1350-ish DPS, while the gear should allow for much higher DPS. In the following WWS I had a retri paladin, 2 drums and an enh shaman in the group. Armory: The World of Warcraft Armory WWS from last night's best attempt: Wow Web Stats Now, admittedly I have hit below the cap - this can easily be addressed - I tested with the badge xbow and without and could not discern between them with regards to DPS. So, I must be doing something wrong. I slam immediately after white hits - with my ~100 ping my slams generally land within 0.8 to 1.4 seconds after the white hit. This is something I need to train on, but to be honest quartz's swing meter is too erratic to get much better results. One other thing I've noticed is a) many times I run out of rage, and b) if I rotate white -> slam ->MS -> white -> slam -> WW -> white -> slam ->MS , the next rotation is just white-> slam because both MS and WW are cooling down. Is this normal? |
if you get just white/slam and both are on cooldown, thats where you can refresh demoshout or bshout.
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Originally Posted by Giantlol
Replacing your MH is probably a miniscule difference at best until Warglaives(Which will probably go to rogues first) I'd wait on spending your badges on the fists tbh, SWP trash drops a ridiculous fist, and any weapons you pick up won't be a huge difference in DPS if someone else wants them first.
DST or MoTB would probably be fairly nice upgrades for you, but for the time being I'm pretty sure those are just fine, Tsunami and Shard are both pretty hot trinkets. Sharahz BP would probably be nice, or Vengeful Gladiator, Grips of Silent Justice are pretty nifty too unless you're going for 4 pc |
Most annoying part about my gear (for me anyway) is the lack of good rings really, Bloodboil seems to hate my guts.
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Originally Posted by LodeRunner
Where's your Solarians?
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Originally Posted by Werelds
I'm not sure which combination I'm gonna use to get the 4pc yet, but I was planning to grab the Grips next time we see them - haven't seen them since the first kill though..
Most annoying part about my gear (for me anyway) is the lack of good rings really, Bloodboil seems to hate my guts. In my bags, I generally don't use it because our other fury warrior uses it. Our raid setup differs a lot, and I do use it when I have to. It really depends on our setup though. |
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Originally Posted by Werelds
I'm not sure which combination I'm gonna use to get the 4pc yet, but I was planning to grab the Grips next time we see them - haven't seen them since the first kill though..
Most annoying part about my gear (for me anyway) is the lack of good rings really, Bloodboil seems to hate my guts. In my bags, I generally don't use it because our other fury warrior uses it. Our raid setup differs a lot, and I do use it when I have to. It really depends on our setup though. |
As far as rings, you're better off replacing what you have with the [Signet of Primal Wrath] and [Angelista's Revenge] as Armor Penetration is sooo soooo soooo good.
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Originally Posted by LodeRunner
Two Warriors in the same melee group? That's a little odd. Oh well, as long as someone is making it happen..
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When we run 2 dps warriors, they are usually in the same group. We have 1 enhance shaman, usually 2 rogues, 1 fury warrior and then the extra spot. The extra spot is the other warrior, a ret paladin, or maybe a BM hunter. If the other warrior or ret paladin is in the raid, they are in that group. We don't have a second shaman running WF in the raid. Sometimes we'll only have one rogue.
When we went to Brutallus, the other fury warrior went arms to see if we could min/max. BF was only worth 400-450 dps and he couldn't post much dps with the strat we run so we gave up on BF. The other option was to try and set up a second melee group which was mediocre. The timing of the slam rotation is critical. I've geared purely as DW fury so if I went arms, my crit and armor pen wouldn't be where they would need to be. I might try it on farm content sometime.
When we went to Brutallus, the other fury warrior went arms to see if we could min/max. BF was only worth 400-450 dps and he couldn't post much dps with the strat we run so we gave up on BF. The other option was to try and set up a second melee group which was mediocre. The timing of the slam rotation is critical. I've geared purely as DW fury so if I went arms, my crit and armor pen wouldn't be where they would need to be. I might try it on farm content sometime.
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Originally Posted by LodeRunner
Two Warriors in the same melee group? That's a little odd. Oh well, as long as someone is making it happen..
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Originally Posted by Machinator
Im also confused by this, where else would be a good place for it?
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Originally Posted by Grymm
When we run 2 dps warriors, they are usually in the same group. We have 1 enhance shaman, usually 2 rogues, 1 fury warrior and then the extra spot. The extra spot is the other warrior, a ret paladin, or maybe a BM hunter. If the other warrior or ret paladin is in the raid, they are in that group. We don't have a second shaman running WF in the raid. Sometimes we'll only have one rogue.
When we went to Brutallus, the other fury warrior went arms to see if we could min/max. BF was only worth 400-450 dps and he couldn't post much dps with the strat we run so we gave up on BF. The other option was to try and set up a second melee group which was mediocre. The timing of the slam rotation is critical. I've geared purely as DW fury so if I went arms, my crit and armor pen wouldn't be where they would need to be. I might try it on farm content sometime. |
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Originally Posted by LodeRunner
Two Warriors in the same melee group? That's a little odd. Oh well, as long as someone is making it happen..
As far as rings, you're better off replacing what you have with the [Signet of Primal Wrath] and [Angelista's Revenge] as Armor Penetration is sooo soooo soooo good. |
Tried getting the ring from ZA, it won't drop.
So on 2.4.2 ptr, dragonstrike along with most other blacksmithed weapons are now one handed.
Will that change anything for us?
Will that change anything for us?
Weapons
I am currently using "The Decapitator" in my MH and "Akil'zon's Talonblade" in my OH, i have both enchanted with +20 strength and am pry gonna switch the talonblade over to a mongoose. But my question is should i have these weapons in their current slots or swap them... i used to firmly believe that i should keep the decapitator MH and talonblade OH but have heard some convincing arguments the other way over the past few days?
Read thorugh the Compendium. There's a section directly addressing Weapon Speeds.
I would be curious as to why someone is telling you that a Fast/Slow setup is beneficial.
I would be curious as to why someone is telling you that a Fast/Slow setup is beneficial.
So, our guild is now at brutallus, and while we do have enough RDPS to down him, we're currently pretty much training to get our tanks to live through the beating.
That said, I have severe problems with my personal DPS. I specced to 33/27/0 for blood frenzy and have (IMO) excellent gear. However, I seem to be underperforming pretty badly, only getting to ~1350-ish DPS, while the gear should allow for much higher DPS. In the following WWS I had a retri paladin, 2 drums and an enh shaman in the group.
Armory:
The World of Warcraft Armory
WWS from last night's best attempt:
Wow Web Stats
Now, admittedly I have hit below the cap - this can easily be addressed - I tested with the badge xbow and without and could not discern between them with regards to DPS.
So, I must be doing something wrong. I slam immediately after white hits - with my ~100 ping my slams generally land within 0.8 to 1.4 seconds after the white hit. This is something I need to train on, but to be honest quartz's swing meter is too erratic to get much better results. One other thing I've noticed is a) many times I run out of rage, and b) if I rotate white -> slam ->MS -> white -> slam -> WW -> white -> slam ->MS , the next rotation is just white-> slam because both MS and WW are cooling down. Is this normal?
That said, I have severe problems with my personal DPS. I specced to 33/27/0 for blood frenzy and have (IMO) excellent gear. However, I seem to be underperforming pretty badly, only getting to ~1350-ish DPS, while the gear should allow for much higher DPS. In the following WWS I had a retri paladin, 2 drums and an enh shaman in the group.
Armory:
The World of Warcraft Armory
WWS from last night's best attempt:
Wow Web Stats
Now, admittedly I have hit below the cap - this can easily be addressed - I tested with the badge xbow and without and could not discern between them with regards to DPS.
So, I must be doing something wrong. I slam immediately after white hits - with my ~100 ping my slams generally land within 0.8 to 1.4 seconds after the white hit. This is something I need to train on, but to be honest quartz's swing meter is too erratic to get much better results. One other thing I've noticed is a) many times I run out of rage, and b) if I rotate white -> slam ->MS -> white -> slam -> WW -> white -> slam ->MS , the next rotation is just white-> slam because both MS and WW are cooling down. Is this normal?
Edited onPatch 2.4.1
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Originally Posted by dahakon
So, our guild is now at brutallus, and while we do have enough RDPS to down him, we're currently pretty much training to get our tanks to live through the beating.
That said, I have severe problems with my personal DPS. I specced to 33/27/0 for blood frenzy and have (IMO) excellent gear. However, I seem to be underperforming pretty badly, only getting to ~1350-ish DPS, while the gear should allow for much higher DPS. In the following WWS I had a retri paladin, 2 drums and an enh shaman in the group. Armory: The World of Warcraft Armory WWS from last night's best attempt: Wow Web Stats Now, admittedly I have hit below the cap - this can easily be addressed - I tested with the badge xbow and without and could not discern between them with regards to DPS. So, I must be doing something wrong. I slam immediately after white hits - with my ~100 ping my slams generally land within 0.8 to 1.4 seconds after the white hit. This is something I need to train on, but to be honest quartz's swing meter is too erratic to get much better results. One other thing I've noticed is a) many times I run out of rage, and b) if I rotate white -> slam ->MS -> white -> slam -> WW -> white -> slam ->MS , the next rotation is just white-> slam because both MS and WW are cooling down. Is this normal? |
90% of the trouble can be summed up to Brutallus' armour. Not being able to complete DPS rotations due to rage starvation will really mess with our DPS. I also noticed that the raid isnt getting a lock to put up CoR on Brut? That will hurt all physical DPS (but then again your spec doesn't include imp demo, so might not be such a good idea)
Another thing - it might be worth ditching the standard quartz swing timer with a modified or specially designed warrior swinger like dr_ALLCOM3's swingersclub:
WoWInterface Downloads : Combat Mods : Doc's Swingerclub
I've had similar DPS (1350-1450) on attempts, but most kills I've climbed back up to 1500-1600 at the end with Heroism/Reck/DW execute time.
Last edited by Rook : 04/23/08 at 3:11 AM.
Yeah, reason we don't put CoR up is we have problems with tanks getting instagibbed. Also, our MT has 5/5 imp demo.. Dunno if he has time to keep it up, however. Seeing as I have time to keep demo up with the rotation we might have something there.
Thanks for the input.
Thanks for the input.
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Originally Posted by Wump
Read thorugh the Compendium. There's a section directly addressing Weapon Speeds.
I would be curious as to why someone is telling you that a Fast/Slow setup is beneficial. |
For cycle damage a slow/fast combo will be better than a fast/slow. For cycle damage this is due to that WW will hit for lower with fast/slow than slow/fast (since the hardhitting weapon will have a 37.5% damage penalty in that setup). There is no gain in using fast/slow over slow/fast from what I can think of.
That aside, you will still not lose more than 1-2% of dps when going to a fast/slow over a low/fast combo. If you get a offhand only weapon drop you may have situation where the best possible weapon combo will be fast/slow. It works just fine, it's just not optimal.
Edited onPatch 2.4.1
I personally don't see the point in using anything other than slow/slow for Execute at higher gear levels. You want to be able to hit Execute every GCD, but it seems like such a waste to swap in even a single fast weapon if you have Flurry and Bloodlust active. Add in drums and a haste potion, and even a 2.8 speed weapon is going to beat the GCD, even if it's only for 15 seconds. After that it's mostly about cycle damage. If you can get near the same auto attack damage by swapping weapons, it might be worth it for you, but with so many haste sources available, I don't really see faster weapons pulling ahead except for maybe on something like Brutallus that has a longer Execute phase than normal. You'll also almost be guaranteed to have the rage to hit BT even after just blowing all of it on a previous Execute while hasted using slow/slow. Another thing is that with slow/slow at 3500 AP, WW beats a 25 rage Execute and has an additional chance to crit.
Last edited by Graul : 04/23/08 at 9:08 AM.
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Originally Posted by Gruntle
There were some claims by Grim13 that execute damage is highest with a fast/slow combo a few months ago, but I think he's revised the models since then.
For cycle damage a slow/fast combo will be better than a fast/slow. For cycle damage this is due to that WW will hit for lower with fast/slow than slow/fast (since the hardhitting weapon will have a 37.5% damage penalty in that setup). There is no gain in using fast/slow over slow/fast from what I can think of. That aside, you will still not lose more than 1-2% of dps when going to a fast/slow over a low/fast combo. If you get a offhand only weapon drop you may have situation where the best possible weapon combo will be fast/slow. It works just fine, it's just not optimal. |
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Originally Posted by dahakon
So, our guild is now at brutallus, and while we do have enough RDPS to down him, we're currently pretty much training to get our tanks to live through the beating.
That said, I have severe problems with my personal DPS. I specced to 33/27/0 for blood frenzy and have (IMO) excellent gear. However, I seem to be underperforming pretty badly, only getting to ~1350-ish DPS, while the gear should allow for much higher DPS. In the following WWS I had a retri paladin, 2 drums and an enh shaman in the group. Armory: The World of Warcraft Armory WWS from last night's best attempt: Wow Web Stats Now, admittedly I have hit below the cap - this can easily be addressed - I tested with the badge xbow and without and could not discern between them with regards to DPS. So, I must be doing something wrong. I slam immediately after white hits - with my ~100 ping my slams generally land within 0.8 to 1.4 seconds after the white hit. This is something I need to train on, but to be honest quartz's swing meter is too erratic to get much better results. One other thing I've noticed is a) many times I run out of rage, and b) if I rotate white -> slam ->MS -> white -> slam -> WW -> white -> slam ->MS , the next rotation is just white-> slam because both MS and WW are cooling down. Is this normal? |
Also, could try going with Surefooted and then STR food instead of hit food
Like someone said earlier get Doc's Swingerclub because it is great for slam dmg.
Having never done Brutallus myself I'm in no position to judge damage, but your loss of damage is probably due to his high armor. What do you do on average to other bosses?
Hey guys
Long time troller here, and picked up loads of things from these forums (for other classes as well), but now I've actually got some questions of my own.
Let me just start off by giving you my armory link: Armory - Werelds of Burning Steppes.
As you can see, I'm 17/44 and the GM of my guild - we're at 5/5 MH and 7/9 BT at the moment. I generally lead the progress raids, but this hasn't really hindered my DPS that much. Probably the only fight where it really held me back when we were trying to get him down, was Archimonde.
Now, my questions come in duplex, but let me first state that I have used the 2.4 Fury DPS spreadsheet, but the numbers I got from it didn't really convince me from changing anything.
1. Is it worth changing either of my weapons with any of the MH/BT (bar the legendaries) weapons or Badge weapons (which won't be available to me for a few weeks, slow realm)?
I don't see the use of replacing Dragonstrike with any of them, as the haste proc simply gets better as the rest of my gear improves. As far as the Talon goes, the matching speed seems to be very beneficial, and when it comes to stats/damage, it's pretty much on par with most of the MH/BT weapons.
The only useful change I can see, would be getting the dual 2.5 speed fists that come available with badges. According to the spreadsheet, this would actually give me a ~20 DPS increase, which would make it worth it. It'll be several weeks before these become available though.
2. As far as trinket choice goes, is there much else I can choose apart from the ones I have right now?
I'm trying to get DST, but after a year of farming Gruul (I started out in TBC on a Hunter), I have yet to see the first drop.
Right now, the only other trinket I'm looking at is MotB, although I suppose Berserker's call would come close?
Thanks for reading my silly post.
Long time troller here, and picked up loads of things from these forums (for other classes as well), but now I've actually got some questions of my own.
Let me just start off by giving you my armory link: Armory - Werelds of Burning Steppes.
As you can see, I'm 17/44 and the GM of my guild - we're at 5/5 MH and 7/9 BT at the moment. I generally lead the progress raids, but this hasn't really hindered my DPS that much. Probably the only fight where it really held me back when we were trying to get him down, was Archimonde.
Now, my questions come in duplex, but let me first state that I have used the 2.4 Fury DPS spreadsheet, but the numbers I got from it didn't really convince me from changing anything.
1. Is it worth changing either of my weapons with any of the MH/BT (bar the legendaries) weapons or Badge weapons (which won't be available to me for a few weeks, slow realm)?
I don't see the use of replacing Dragonstrike with any of them, as the haste proc simply gets better as the rest of my gear improves. As far as the Talon goes, the matching speed seems to be very beneficial, and when it comes to stats/damage, it's pretty much on par with most of the MH/BT weapons.
The only useful change I can see, would be getting the dual 2.5 speed fists that come available with badges. According to the spreadsheet, this would actually give me a ~20 DPS increase, which would make it worth it. It'll be several weeks before these become available though.
2. As far as trinket choice goes, is there much else I can choose apart from the ones I have right now?
I'm trying to get DST, but after a year of farming Gruul (I started out in TBC on a Hunter), I have yet to see the first drop.
Right now, the only other trinket I'm looking at is MotB, although I suppose Berserker's call would come close?
Thanks for reading my silly post.
Replacing your MH is probably a miniscule difference at best until Warglaives(Which will probably go to rogues first) I'd wait on spending your badges on the fists tbh, SWP trash drops a ridiculous fist, and any weapons you pick up won't be a huge difference in DPS if someone else wants them first.
DST or MoTB would probably be fairly nice upgrades for you, but for the time being I'm pretty sure those are just fine, Tsunami and Shard are both pretty hot trinkets. Sharahz BP would probably be nice, or Vengeful Gladiator, Grips of Silent Justice are pretty nifty too unless you're going for 4 pc
DST or MoTB would probably be fairly nice upgrades for you, but for the time being I'm pretty sure those are just fine, Tsunami and Shard are both pretty hot trinkets. Sharahz BP would probably be nice, or Vengeful Gladiator, Grips of Silent Justice are pretty nifty too unless you're going for 4 pc
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Originally Posted by abrb1234
I can definetely see where your coming from, but what's your opinion on a fast/fast combo?
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I haven't really experienced MH/BT or SWP yet, but theoretically dual fast weapons should really beat the shit out of slow ones at very high gear levels. As soon as you're able to do HS on every or close to every swing the extra dps from the HS bonus damage should be bigger than the extra dps from WW. HS also work very fine with haste once you get to that state (no other yellow damage abilities really scale with haste). Maybe I'm out on a limb here though, I'm not sure how close to using HS on every swing people are in the T6+ content.
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Originally Posted by Werelds
2. As far as trinket choice goes, is there much else I can choose apart from the ones I have right now? I'm trying to get DST, but after a year of farming Gruul (I started out in TBC on a Hunter), I have yet to see the first drop. Right now, the only other trinket I'm looking at is MotB, although I suppose Berserker's call would come close? |
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Originally Posted by Graul
I personally don't see the point in using anything other than slow/slow for Execute at higher gear levels. You want to be able to hit Execute every GCD, but it seems like such a waste to swap in even a single fast weapon if you have Flurry and Bloodlust active. Add in drums and a haste potion, and even a 2.8 speed weapon is going to beat the GCD, even if it's only for 15 seconds. After that it's mostly about cycle damage. If you can get near the same auto attack damage by swapping weapons, it might be worth it for you, but with so many haste sources available, I don't really see faster weapons pulling ahead except for maybe on something like Brutallus that has a longer Execute phase than normal. You'll also almost be guaranteed to have the rage to hit BT even after just blowing all of it on a previous Execute while hasted using slow/slow. Another thing is that with slow/slow at 3500 AP, WW beats a 25 rage Execute and has an additional chance to crit.
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Originally Posted by dahakon
So, our guild is now at brutallus, and while we do have enough RDPS to down him, we're currently pretty much training to get our tanks to live through the beating.
That said, I have severe problems with my personal DPS. I specced to 33/27/0 for blood frenzy and have (IMO) excellent gear. However, I seem to be underperforming pretty badly, only getting to ~1350-ish DPS, while the gear should allow for much higher DPS. In the following WWS I had a retri paladin, 2 drums and an enh shaman in the group. Armory: The World of Warcraft Armory WWS from last night's best attempt: Wow Web Stats Now, admittedly I have hit below the cap - this can easily be addressed - I tested with the badge xbow and without and could not discern between them with regards to DPS. So, I must be doing something wrong. I slam immediately after white hits - with my ~100 ping my slams generally land within 0.8 to 1.4 seconds after the white hit. This is something I need to train on, but to be honest quartz's swing meter is too erratic to get much better results. One other thing I've noticed is a) many times I run out of rage, and b) if I rotate white -> slam ->MS -> white -> slam -> WW -> white -> slam ->MS , the next rotation is just white-> slam because both MS and WW are cooling down. Is this normal? |
if you get just white/slam and both are on cooldown, thats where you can refresh demoshout or bshout.
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Originally Posted by Giantlol
Replacing your MH is probably a miniscule difference at best until Warglaives(Which will probably go to rogues first) I'd wait on spending your badges on the fists tbh, SWP trash drops a ridiculous fist, and any weapons you pick up won't be a huge difference in DPS if someone else wants them first.
DST or MoTB would probably be fairly nice upgrades for you, but for the time being I'm pretty sure those are just fine, Tsunami and Shard are both pretty hot trinkets. Sharahz BP would probably be nice, or Vengeful Gladiator, Grips of Silent Justice are pretty nifty too unless you're going for 4 pc |
Most annoying part about my gear (for me anyway) is the lack of good rings really, Bloodboil seems to hate my guts.
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Originally Posted by LodeRunner
Where's your Solarians?
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Originally Posted by Werelds
I'm not sure which combination I'm gonna use to get the 4pc yet, but I was planning to grab the Grips next time we see them - haven't seen them since the first kill though..
Most annoying part about my gear (for me anyway) is the lack of good rings really, Bloodboil seems to hate my guts. In my bags, I generally don't use it because our other fury warrior uses it. Our raid setup differs a lot, and I do use it when I have to. It really depends on our setup though. |
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Originally Posted by Werelds
I'm not sure which combination I'm gonna use to get the 4pc yet, but I was planning to grab the Grips next time we see them - haven't seen them since the first kill though..
Most annoying part about my gear (for me anyway) is the lack of good rings really, Bloodboil seems to hate my guts. In my bags, I generally don't use it because our other fury warrior uses it. Our raid setup differs a lot, and I do use it when I have to. It really depends on our setup though. |
As far as rings, you're better off replacing what you have with the [Signet of Primal Wrath] and [Angelista's Revenge] as Armor Penetration is sooo soooo soooo good.
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Originally Posted by LodeRunner
Two Warriors in the same melee group? That's a little odd. Oh well, as long as someone is making it happen..
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When we run 2 dps warriors, they are usually in the same group. We have 1 enhance shaman, usually 2 rogues, 1 fury warrior and then the extra spot. The extra spot is the other warrior, a ret paladin, or maybe a BM hunter. If the other warrior or ret paladin is in the raid, they are in that group. We don't have a second shaman running WF in the raid. Sometimes we'll only have one rogue.
When we went to Brutallus, the other fury warrior went arms to see if we could min/max. BF was only worth 400-450 dps and he couldn't post much dps with the strat we run so we gave up on BF. The other option was to try and set up a second melee group which was mediocre. The timing of the slam rotation is critical. I've geared purely as DW fury so if I went arms, my crit and armor pen wouldn't be where they would need to be. I might try it on farm content sometime.
When we went to Brutallus, the other fury warrior went arms to see if we could min/max. BF was only worth 400-450 dps and he couldn't post much dps with the strat we run so we gave up on BF. The other option was to try and set up a second melee group which was mediocre. The timing of the slam rotation is critical. I've geared purely as DW fury so if I went arms, my crit and armor pen wouldn't be where they would need to be. I might try it on farm content sometime.
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Originally Posted by LodeRunner
Two Warriors in the same melee group? That's a little odd. Oh well, as long as someone is making it happen..
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Originally Posted by Machinator
Im also confused by this, where else would be a good place for it?
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Originally Posted by Grymm
When we run 2 dps warriors, they are usually in the same group. We have 1 enhance shaman, usually 2 rogues, 1 fury warrior and then the extra spot. The extra spot is the other warrior, a ret paladin, or maybe a BM hunter. If the other warrior or ret paladin is in the raid, they are in that group. We don't have a second shaman running WF in the raid. Sometimes we'll only have one rogue.
When we went to Brutallus, the other fury warrior went arms to see if we could min/max. BF was only worth 400-450 dps and he couldn't post much dps with the strat we run so we gave up on BF. The other option was to try and set up a second melee group which was mediocre. The timing of the slam rotation is critical. I've geared purely as DW fury so if I went arms, my crit and armor pen wouldn't be where they would need to be. I might try it on farm content sometime. |
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Originally Posted by LodeRunner
Two Warriors in the same melee group? That's a little odd. Oh well, as long as someone is making it happen..
As far as rings, you're better off replacing what you have with the [Signet of Primal Wrath] and [Angelista's Revenge] as Armor Penetration is sooo soooo soooo good. |
Tried getting the ring from ZA, it won't drop.
So on 2.4.2 ptr, dragonstrike along with most other blacksmithed weapons are now one handed.
Will that change anything for us?
Will that change anything for us?
Yeah, I guess I just come from a different perspective. We have two raiding DPS Warriors: one Arms, one Fury. We are almost never in the same raid at the same time. If we are, the Arms Warrior goes in the tank group and misses out on Unleashed Rage and the Bloodlust switching, but adds the 4% DPS to all physical classes. The 'melee' group tends to consist of a DPS Warrior, an Enhancement Shaman, and 3 Rogues. Sometimes a Rogue will get swapped out for our Ret Paladin. I wish I could get LotP, but cat DPS is so inferior to a Rogue's.
Not only is Dragonstrike now one handed, it's also not unique anymore. Could dual wielding Dragonstrikes be the new setup to use pre-Warglaives?
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Originally Posted by Volgon
Not only is Dragonstrike now one handed, it's also not unique anymore. Could dual wielding Dragonstrikes be the new setup to use pre-Warglaives?
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ImageShack - Hosting :: wowscrnshot042308152430zw0.jpg
Picture of the new Dragonstrike, one handed and does not list as being unique. Unfortunately I don't have the mats to craft Drakefist Hammer at the moment, else I would whip one up and dual wield them to test whether the proc will stack or not.
Picture of the new Dragonstrike, one handed and does not list as being unique. Unfortunately I don't have the mats to craft Drakefist Hammer at the moment, else I would whip one up and dual wield them to test whether the proc will stack or not.
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Originally Posted by Volgon
test whether the proc will stack or not.
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Actually, since I switched shoulders, I could probably equip my Cat's Edge and 2 hand with a dory's/serrated blades on to get rid of my extra wasted hit rating. For a while I was well over 250 hit rating so when I went 2 handed, I'd have 50-60 wasted hit rating that I couldn't trade for other stats without using inferior gear.
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Originally Posted by Volgon
ImageShack - Hosting :: wowscrnshot042308152430zw0.jpg
Picture of the new Dragonstrike, one handed and does not list as being unique. |
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Originally Posted by Giantlol
Yeah, that rotation is fairly routine. Thats generally where you put up Battleshout again/Demo shout, or just slam, its basically your breather in between everything else
Also, could try going with Surefooted and then STR food instead of hit food Like someone said earlier get Doc's Swingerclub because it is great for slam dmg. Having never done Brutallus myself I'm in no position to judge damage, but your loss of damage is probably due to his high armor. What do you do on average to other bosses? |
Thanks for the feedback.
I didn't even know Dragonstrike was now 1H + non-unique, that looks mighty interesting to be honest.
Really need someone to run some numbers though, see how the double procs would work out?
Really need someone to run some numbers though, see how the double procs would work out?
Info on BS Dragon Hammers generally:
That's for one hammer. The big questions are:
1. What's the actual PPM of someone going all-out with instants and one in each hand?
2. Does the proc from an OH dragon hammer stack haste buffs with the MH or just apply a fresh one?
3. Does it still have no internal cooldown now that they are allowing you to use two?
These are fact questions based on how they made adjustments, if any, to the weapon in making it one-hand and non-unique. I think the only way to find out would be for someone to transfer a character with mats to make a second Dragonstrike and then beat on something for a couple hours. The rage intake and scaling on the rest of your gear can be spreadsheeted, but this stuff can't be.
Just at a glance and applying the known information even without the OH and MH stacking, this looks like it could be an extremely powerful weapons set if they didn't make any changes.
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Originally Posted by Shha
As for BS 1h hammers:
- They dont have hidden cooldown and i said in posts above. I did personally had countless occurances of the buff overlapping each other. - Im currently running several hour long test in blasted lands: Conditions: - Mob attacked from the front - noone to tank it . My parry is at around 31%, something to take into account. - Tanking gear (need to do something else lol). - UM and combatlogging. - No flurry or other haste procs. - No instants - just autoattack. So far the uptime for it oscilates around 21%, and has not changed for few hours. this suggests around 1.2 PPM with following problems: Overlapping procs can lower a bit the result (although not much). Parry speeds up weapon speed considerably. Out of every 10 swings 3 are hasted (if i recall the haste averages to making your weapon speed 0.4 of normal - im not 100% sure on parry mechanics, someone can probably correct me). If so the 10 swings take only 8.2 time of normal one, so we can say the proc shows 1.22 times more. Taking that into account, Id say the PPM is just 1. Conclusion - current 16.6% uptime model in your spreadsheet is too low. How much its debatable. However even without haste effects uptime is at the 16.6%. That doesnt count instants, or haste effects. Speculation. From my other tests, it seems that the proc follows rules of noncooldowned procs like executioner/mongoose aka: - Extra procs from instants. - Haste/Flurry doesnt affect proc rate - its calculated from base weapon speed. - Proc can override itself. Probably similiar modelling to mongoose/executioner can be applied, however the proc duration is 10 sec as opposed to 15, so the uptime will be lower. Interesting values - according to combat log Haste buffs =601 Executioner buffs = 463 That doesnt take into account refreshing buffs, so i think higher number for haste, is simply because executioner overwrites itself a lot more due to longer buff duration. |
1. What's the actual PPM of someone going all-out with instants and one in each hand?
2. Does the proc from an OH dragon hammer stack haste buffs with the MH or just apply a fresh one?
3. Does it still have no internal cooldown now that they are allowing you to use two?
These are fact questions based on how they made adjustments, if any, to the weapon in making it one-hand and non-unique. I think the only way to find out would be for someone to transfer a character with mats to make a second Dragonstrike and then beat on something for a couple hours. The rage intake and scaling on the rest of your gear can be spreadsheeted, but this stuff can't be.
Just at a glance and applying the known information even without the OH and MH stacking, this looks like it could be an extremely powerful weapons set if they didn't make any changes.
I logged in before work to go check, it does indeed stack. It appears there still is no cooldown, as I was constantly getting both up.
http://i190.photobucket.com/albums/z...408_082754.jpg
I'll have to test further when I get home from work, unless someone else gets to it first.
http://i190.photobucket.com/albums/z...408_082754.jpg
I'll have to test further when I get home from work, unless someone else gets to it first.
Just for curiosity sake, how does 900 DPS for a T4 warrior, with normal raid buffs and battleshout sound? Armory's down for me atm, but buffed i'm around 2500 AP, 220 hit and 29% crit. I've been having just a dry spell of finding a real 2nd trinket that would help me out, and it seems the only option viable to me atm is the Shard. I also found out today that we won't have an enhancebot for awhile, so it seems i'll be holding around that level for some time.
Well 900 DPS is definitely higher than the fury warrior in my guild =/ I don't think I've ever seen him top 600 DPS, which is why I'm here. Would anyone mind taking a look at our latest WWS and tell me what he (Popo) is doing wrong? He's a good kid, but is young and not real high on theorycrafting and we don't have anyone in the guild thats really expert enough to tell him what he needs to fix. I think he'll listen to me, I just need to know what to tell him. Any advice?
Wow Web Stats
Just a quick note - He showed up just as we were about to pull HKM, so he didn't get into a group with windfury. But in the past, he's had it and his DPS hasn't been much better so I'm sure he's just doing something (multiple things?) wrong.
Wow Web Stats
Just a quick note - He showed up just as we were about to pull HKM, so he didn't get into a group with windfury. But in the past, he's had it and his DPS hasn't been much better so I'm sure he's just doing something (multiple things?) wrong.
I might be wrong here but I think his 34 appearances of Rampage on Gruul means he's letting it drop off a lot.
He used BT 12 times and WW 10 times in a 5 minute fight. He only had 70% presence but considering in an ideal situation you should be getting 10 BTs in per minute he's still falling far, far short of the mark. He needs to be trying to hit them whenever they come off cooldown. I can only hope his single slam was just slipping up and pressing the wrong key.
ManatArms - your armory link from profile isn't working, have you changed your character's name? Your character name brings up no results and there's no one by that name in your guild. Your hit rating sounds kind of high in comparison to your other stats but I can't really assess your gear without armory.
He used BT 12 times and WW 10 times in a 5 minute fight. He only had 70% presence but considering in an ideal situation you should be getting 10 BTs in per minute he's still falling far, far short of the mark. He needs to be trying to hit them whenever they come off cooldown. I can only hope his single slam was just slipping up and pressing the wrong key.
ManatArms - your armory link from profile isn't working, have you changed your character's name? Your character name brings up no results and there's no one by that name in your guild. Your hit rating sounds kind of high in comparison to your other stats but I can't really assess your gear without armory.
If Popo wants to become a better Fury Warrior, he should come here and read through Voxx's Compendim, and get a rotation down. In the Gruul death I see that he cast Slam, and a couple Throw's. Throw's I could understand while he's waiting to be shattered, but the Slam is deffinately not what he want's to be doing.
And in the Maulgar death he's throwing a couple more times. Why is he out of melee range on that fight? There's always someone to hit.
His gear is decent I suppose, depending on where your guild or he is as far as content, Gruul/Mag level I'm guessing. However his talent's could use some work if he is a purely PVE warrior. If he also PVP's then they aren't bad (I don't so I'll defer to those that do) but his alterations of the 17/44 aren't helping him.
ManAtArms, can't find you in the Armory.
And in the Maulgar death he's throwing a couple more times. Why is he out of melee range on that fight? There's always someone to hit.
His gear is decent I suppose, depending on where your guild or he is as far as content, Gruul/Mag level I'm guessing. However his talent's could use some work if he is a purely PVE warrior. If he also PVP's then they aren't bad (I don't so I'll defer to those that do) but his alterations of the 17/44 aren't helping him.
ManAtArms, can't find you in the Armory.
I'm about to transfer to a new guild with a new name in a few days, so i figured simply updating the info now wouldn't be that big an issue.
Unbuffed i'm sitting around 1950 AP with 220 hit and 28% Crit. I've also been socketing Bold living ruby for just about all my gear slots, with the exception of the +Crit+STR gems in my chest and the Blue+Crit gems i'm using in my shoulder sockets. I've been pondering if dropping a few red gems for more crit would yield me a better result, but i'm inline for the Blood Stained shoulders and Grips from Akama, so i've been kind of iffy about playing with my gem selection pending my upgrades.
Unbuffed i'm sitting around 1950 AP with 220 hit and 28% Crit. I've also been socketing Bold living ruby for just about all my gear slots, with the exception of the +Crit+STR gems in my chest and the Blue+Crit gems i'm using in my shoulder sockets. I've been pondering if dropping a few red gems for more crit would yield me a better result, but i'm inline for the Blood Stained shoulders and Grips from Akama, so i've been kind of iffy about playing with my gem selection pending my upgrades.
So what's your character name now? Thought you said you were t4 level but you're raiding t6 content.
When I was Fury I had 2k unbuffed AP, 32% crit and ~100 hit rating and pulled over 1k DPS on good fights. Without knowing your usual group setup, what fights you're talking about, your armory and possibly some WWS reports I can't really say whether you're doing fine or could use improvement.
When I was Fury I had 2k unbuffed AP, 32% crit and ~100 hit rating and pulled over 1k DPS on good fights. Without knowing your usual group setup, what fights you're talking about, your armory and possibly some WWS reports I can't really say whether you're doing fine or could use improvement.
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Originally Posted by Rodandwa
Well 900 DPS is definitely higher than the fury warrior in my guild =/ I don't think I've ever seen him top 600 DPS, which is why I'm here. Would anyone mind taking a look at our latest WWS and tell me what he (Popo) is doing wrong? He's a good kid, but is young and not real high on theorycrafting and we don't have anyone in the guild thats really expert enough to tell him what he needs to fix. I think he'll listen to me, I just need to know what to tell him. Any advice?
Wow Web Stats Just a quick note - He showed up just as we were about to pull HKM, so he didn't get into a group with windfury. But in the past, he's had it and his DPS hasn't been much better so I'm sure he's just doing something (multiple things?) wrong. |
It may be that he's having problems managing his rage, or he's not concentrating on making sure that BT and WW are always used as soon as they become available.
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Originally Posted by Lavos
So what's your character name now? Thought you said you were t4 level but you're raiding t6 content.
When I was Fury I had 2k unbuffed AP, 32% crit and ~100 hit rating and pulled over 1k DPS on good fights. Without knowing your usual group setup, what fights you're talking about, your armory and possibly some WWS reports I can't really say whether you're doing fine or could use improvement. |
I've reregistered for the time using my current info, so that might help a bit.
I took that info from a Rage kill. I'm still new to using damage meters in raids due to raiding 2 years as prot, so i used Recount for that one fight and never used it again, because the data seemed somewhat skewed.(Or i had no idea how to read it, either way). If i remember right we were using 2 Rogues, myself, a Ret paladin, and a Feral on that attempt. I've got no rage issue's whatsoever in my current gear; always enough to hit my BT/WW's and throw in at least 2 Heroics in between cooldowns.. and i'm pretty sure my rotation is on target with what it should be.
As for the gear jump, it seems to me that(At least in my case) it's either people halfway through Hyjal/BT looking for my class, or people just starting 25 mans. I opted to take the high road based on doing this many times before as prot.
Hi there guys, I got a question concerning those poor underrated Righteous Weapon Coatings for dual wield. The proc chance seems to be very high, which means if u're off int cd, u should get proc in 2-3sec (5 most).
NOW! Big question!
Have anyone tried this for buff stacking moments? What you do is using it on a good offhand and keeping it in bag until 2-3secs before buff stacking (trinket if u got some + haste pot + drums from party, hero too maybe). Here's the simplier explanation:
Here's the typical battle plan:
0:00
1:00 2min cds (haste pots, drums, trinkets, etc)
2:00
3:00 2min cds + HERO + recklesness
4:00
5:00 2min cds (what the hell, not dead yet?)
etc
My idea:
0:00
0:57 weapon swap from offhand with 28crit sharp stone to offhand with Weapon Coating
1:00 2min cds... +300ap from Coating's proc
1:15-1:30 weapon swap back
2:57 weapon swap
3:00 2min cds + HERO + recklesness ... +300ap from Coating's proc
etc
Word of theorycraft: Let's assume we are doing steady dps. Swap costs us 1s gcd (or 1.5?). Swapping weapons and getting a proc gives us 1sec of no dps, 10sec of dps with 300ap and 1sec of no dps for swapping back. So, 10secs of dps with 300ap buff vs. 12secs dps with 28crit buff (regular sharp stone). That means, the dps with 300ap buff should be 20% better than dps with 28crit. No chance! But that's of course steady dps situation.
Let's assume raid situation with buff stacking, let's say we are at 2:57, right before getting hero + all cds stacking. Now, let's assume steady dps is 1500, and dps on hero time stacking 3.5k (depends on luck really, one time u get 4k for those 15secs of reckl, another u get 3k, because of some unlucky dodges or misses) Let's assing weapon swapings for worst dps moments, the steady dps between 2min cds - before hero and after hero for our situation. So, we got 10secs of 3.5k dps with 300ap boost vs. 2secs of 1500dps + 3.5k dps with 28crit boost.
How much better 300ap is from 28crit? 28crit is something around 60ap, so 300ap is better by 240ap, that's half battle shout, so around 7% (rough estimation).
SO!
3.5k dps + 7% is around 3950dps... for 10secs... around 39,5k dmg
3.5k dps for 10sec + 1.5k dps for 2secs... that's 35k + 3k... around 38k dmg
Weapon Coating may be better with weapon swapping for buff stacking moments then. Of course my calculations are based on misty numbers taken from looking at wwses, but they cannot be far from truth really. So the result of 39.5k vs 38k is close to something real. Swapping to Coating can be a bit better, can be a bit worse.
HAS ANY1 TESTED IT?
Gonna try it on Brutallus the Puss tonight, but I won't have good comparison anyway, since it will be first time in going all out fury on him (usuallu sitting in MS/bf spec with [Nightfall] and buffing all the raid).
NOW! Big question!
Have anyone tried this for buff stacking moments? What you do is using it on a good offhand and keeping it in bag until 2-3secs before buff stacking (trinket if u got some + haste pot + drums from party, hero too maybe). Here's the simplier explanation:
Here's the typical battle plan:
0:00
1:00 2min cds (haste pots, drums, trinkets, etc)
2:00
3:00 2min cds + HERO + recklesness
4:00
5:00 2min cds (what the hell, not dead yet?)
etc
My idea:
0:00
0:57 weapon swap from offhand with 28crit sharp stone to offhand with Weapon Coating
1:00 2min cds... +300ap from Coating's proc
1:15-1:30 weapon swap back
2:57 weapon swap
3:00 2min cds + HERO + recklesness ... +300ap from Coating's proc
etc
Word of theorycraft: Let's assume we are doing steady dps. Swap costs us 1s gcd (or 1.5?). Swapping weapons and getting a proc gives us 1sec of no dps, 10sec of dps with 300ap and 1sec of no dps for swapping back. So, 10secs of dps with 300ap buff vs. 12secs dps with 28crit buff (regular sharp stone). That means, the dps with 300ap buff should be 20% better than dps with 28crit. No chance! But that's of course steady dps situation.
Let's assume raid situation with buff stacking, let's say we are at 2:57, right before getting hero + all cds stacking. Now, let's assume steady dps is 1500, and dps on hero time stacking 3.5k (depends on luck really, one time u get 4k for those 15secs of reckl, another u get 3k, because of some unlucky dodges or misses) Let's assing weapon swapings for worst dps moments, the steady dps between 2min cds - before hero and after hero for our situation. So, we got 10secs of 3.5k dps with 300ap boost vs. 2secs of 1500dps + 3.5k dps with 28crit boost.
How much better 300ap is from 28crit? 28crit is something around 60ap, so 300ap is better by 240ap, that's half battle shout, so around 7% (rough estimation).
SO!
3.5k dps + 7% is around 3950dps... for 10secs... around 39,5k dmg
3.5k dps for 10sec + 1.5k dps for 2secs... that's 35k + 3k... around 38k dmg
Weapon Coating may be better with weapon swapping for buff stacking moments then. Of course my calculations are based on misty numbers taken from looking at wwses, but they cannot be far from truth really. So the result of 39.5k vs 38k is close to something real. Swapping to Coating can be a bit better, can be a bit worse.
HAS ANY1 TESTED IT?
Gonna try it on Brutallus the Puss tonight, but I won't have good comparison anyway, since it will be first time in going all out fury on him (usuallu sitting in MS/bf spec with [Nightfall] and buffing all the raid).
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Originally Posted by Wump
And in the Maulgar death he's throwing a couple more times. Why is he out of melee range on that fight? There's always someone to hit. |
That aside, do you (Wump) usually stay inside Maulgars range when he whirlwinds? He usually hits me for around 5k an crits for 10k. So I normally run out for the WW's and use my xbow for a while. That's probably why Popo has some throws in that fight.
Good call on the Whirlwinds, I had forgotten about them. However we're at the stage where we've gotten him down before one. To be honest, it was most likely a very late whirlwind, but it's happened before.
Edited onPatch 2.4.1
I don't think the idea of swapping weapons for the coating has any practical use.
First, there are quite some flaws in your maths. Assuming 1,5k DPS doesn't seem right, when we killed Brutallus last week I was sitting at around 2-2.1k DPS with ~2060 on our kill. 7% total damage gain from 300 ap doesn't seem right either, that's true for Bloodthirst at most. Also you'd need a similar weapon to the one you're having the 28 crit coating on. And the last, probably biggest flaw is the assumption that the coating procs instantly when equipped, it does procc very fast but not instantly.
First, there are quite some flaws in your maths. Assuming 1,5k DPS doesn't seem right, when we killed Brutallus last week I was sitting at around 2-2.1k DPS with ~2060 on our kill. 7% total damage gain from 300 ap doesn't seem right either, that's true for Bloodthirst at most. Also you'd need a similar weapon to the one you're having the 28 crit coating on. And the last, probably biggest flaw is the assumption that the coating procs instantly when equipped, it does procc very fast but not instantly.
Last edited by Hidden : 04/24/08 at 2:33 PM.
Plus you lose a whole GCD from switching a weapon, and can mess-up your rotation.
Plus, when u get usually 30secs of buff stacking, not 10, so 10 with 300ap and 20 what.. without 28crit then. Swap immediatelly after 10secs and get gcd when under 30secs-buffs stacked?... yep, not worth it. But worth trying ;] Hell, I'm a searcher, that could have been a nice one.
Yeah, I guess I just come from a different perspective. We have two raiding DPS Warriors: one Arms, one Fury. We are almost never in the same raid at the same time. If we are, the Arms Warrior goes in the tank group and misses out on Unleashed Rage and the Bloodlust switching, but adds the 4% DPS to all physical classes. The 'melee' group tends to consist of a DPS Warrior, an Enhancement Shaman, and 3 Rogues. Sometimes a Rogue will get swapped out for our Ret Paladin. I wish I could get LotP, but cat DPS is so inferior to a Rogue's.
Not only is Dragonstrike now one handed, it's also not unique anymore. Could dual wielding Dragonstrikes be the new setup to use pre-Warglaives?
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Originally Posted by Volgon
Not only is Dragonstrike now one handed, it's also not unique anymore. Could dual wielding Dragonstrikes be the new setup to use pre-Warglaives?
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ImageShack - Hosting :: wowscrnshot042308152430zw0.jpg
Picture of the new Dragonstrike, one handed and does not list as being unique. Unfortunately I don't have the mats to craft Drakefist Hammer at the moment, else I would whip one up and dual wield them to test whether the proc will stack or not.
Picture of the new Dragonstrike, one handed and does not list as being unique. Unfortunately I don't have the mats to craft Drakefist Hammer at the moment, else I would whip one up and dual wield them to test whether the proc will stack or not.
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Originally Posted by Volgon
test whether the proc will stack or not.
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Actually, since I switched shoulders, I could probably equip my Cat's Edge and 2 hand with a dory's/serrated blades on to get rid of my extra wasted hit rating. For a while I was well over 250 hit rating so when I went 2 handed, I'd have 50-60 wasted hit rating that I couldn't trade for other stats without using inferior gear.
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Originally Posted by Volgon
ImageShack - Hosting :: wowscrnshot042308152430zw0.jpg
Picture of the new Dragonstrike, one handed and does not list as being unique. |
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Originally Posted by Giantlol
Yeah, that rotation is fairly routine. Thats generally where you put up Battleshout again/Demo shout, or just slam, its basically your breather in between everything else
Also, could try going with Surefooted and then STR food instead of hit food Like someone said earlier get Doc's Swingerclub because it is great for slam dmg. Having never done Brutallus myself I'm in no position to judge damage, but your loss of damage is probably due to his high armor. What do you do on average to other bosses? |
Thanks for the feedback.
I didn't even know Dragonstrike was now 1H + non-unique, that looks mighty interesting to be honest.
Really need someone to run some numbers though, see how the double procs would work out?
Really need someone to run some numbers though, see how the double procs would work out?
Info on BS Dragon Hammers generally:
That's for one hammer. The big questions are:
1. What's the actual PPM of someone going all-out with instants and one in each hand?
2. Does the proc from an OH dragon hammer stack haste buffs with the MH or just apply a fresh one?
3. Does it still have no internal cooldown now that they are allowing you to use two?
These are fact questions based on how they made adjustments, if any, to the weapon in making it one-hand and non-unique. I think the only way to find out would be for someone to transfer a character with mats to make a second Dragonstrike and then beat on something for a couple hours. The rage intake and scaling on the rest of your gear can be spreadsheeted, but this stuff can't be.
Just at a glance and applying the known information even without the OH and MH stacking, this looks like it could be an extremely powerful weapons set if they didn't make any changes.
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Originally Posted by Shha
As for BS 1h hammers:
- They dont have hidden cooldown and i said in posts above. I did personally had countless occurances of the buff overlapping each other. - Im currently running several hour long test in blasted lands: Conditions: - Mob attacked from the front - noone to tank it . My parry is at around 31%, something to take into account. - Tanking gear (need to do something else lol). - UM and combatlogging. - No flurry or other haste procs. - No instants - just autoattack. So far the uptime for it oscilates around 21%, and has not changed for few hours. this suggests around 1.2 PPM with following problems: Overlapping procs can lower a bit the result (although not much). Parry speeds up weapon speed considerably. Out of every 10 swings 3 are hasted (if i recall the haste averages to making your weapon speed 0.4 of normal - im not 100% sure on parry mechanics, someone can probably correct me). If so the 10 swings take only 8.2 time of normal one, so we can say the proc shows 1.22 times more. Taking that into account, Id say the PPM is just 1. Conclusion - current 16.6% uptime model in your spreadsheet is too low. How much its debatable. However even without haste effects uptime is at the 16.6%. That doesnt count instants, or haste effects. Speculation. From my other tests, it seems that the proc follows rules of noncooldowned procs like executioner/mongoose aka: - Extra procs from instants. - Haste/Flurry doesnt affect proc rate - its calculated from base weapon speed. - Proc can override itself. Probably similiar modelling to mongoose/executioner can be applied, however the proc duration is 10 sec as opposed to 15, so the uptime will be lower. Interesting values - according to combat log Haste buffs =601 Executioner buffs = 463 That doesnt take into account refreshing buffs, so i think higher number for haste, is simply because executioner overwrites itself a lot more due to longer buff duration. |
1. What's the actual PPM of someone going all-out with instants and one in each hand?
2. Does the proc from an OH dragon hammer stack haste buffs with the MH or just apply a fresh one?
3. Does it still have no internal cooldown now that they are allowing you to use two?
These are fact questions based on how they made adjustments, if any, to the weapon in making it one-hand and non-unique. I think the only way to find out would be for someone to transfer a character with mats to make a second Dragonstrike and then beat on something for a couple hours. The rage intake and scaling on the rest of your gear can be spreadsheeted, but this stuff can't be.
Just at a glance and applying the known information even without the OH and MH stacking, this looks like it could be an extremely powerful weapons set if they didn't make any changes.
I logged in before work to go check, it does indeed stack. It appears there still is no cooldown, as I was constantly getting both up.
http://i190.photobucket.com/albums/z...408_082754.jpg
I'll have to test further when I get home from work, unless someone else gets to it first.
http://i190.photobucket.com/albums/z...408_082754.jpg
I'll have to test further when I get home from work, unless someone else gets to it first.
Just for curiosity sake, how does 900 DPS for a T4 warrior, with normal raid buffs and battleshout sound? Armory's down for me atm, but buffed i'm around 2500 AP, 220 hit and 29% crit. I've been having just a dry spell of finding a real 2nd trinket that would help me out, and it seems the only option viable to me atm is the Shard. I also found out today that we won't have an enhancebot for awhile, so it seems i'll be holding around that level for some time.
Well 900 DPS is definitely higher than the fury warrior in my guild =/ I don't think I've ever seen him top 600 DPS, which is why I'm here. Would anyone mind taking a look at our latest WWS and tell me what he (Popo) is doing wrong? He's a good kid, but is young and not real high on theorycrafting and we don't have anyone in the guild thats really expert enough to tell him what he needs to fix. I think he'll listen to me, I just need to know what to tell him. Any advice?
Wow Web Stats
Just a quick note - He showed up just as we were about to pull HKM, so he didn't get into a group with windfury. But in the past, he's had it and his DPS hasn't been much better so I'm sure he's just doing something (multiple things?) wrong.
Wow Web Stats
Just a quick note - He showed up just as we were about to pull HKM, so he didn't get into a group with windfury. But in the past, he's had it and his DPS hasn't been much better so I'm sure he's just doing something (multiple things?) wrong.
I might be wrong here but I think his 34 appearances of Rampage on Gruul means he's letting it drop off a lot.
He used BT 12 times and WW 10 times in a 5 minute fight. He only had 70% presence but considering in an ideal situation you should be getting 10 BTs in per minute he's still falling far, far short of the mark. He needs to be trying to hit them whenever they come off cooldown. I can only hope his single slam was just slipping up and pressing the wrong key.
ManatArms - your armory link from profile isn't working, have you changed your character's name? Your character name brings up no results and there's no one by that name in your guild. Your hit rating sounds kind of high in comparison to your other stats but I can't really assess your gear without armory.
He used BT 12 times and WW 10 times in a 5 minute fight. He only had 70% presence but considering in an ideal situation you should be getting 10 BTs in per minute he's still falling far, far short of the mark. He needs to be trying to hit them whenever they come off cooldown. I can only hope his single slam was just slipping up and pressing the wrong key.
ManatArms - your armory link from profile isn't working, have you changed your character's name? Your character name brings up no results and there's no one by that name in your guild. Your hit rating sounds kind of high in comparison to your other stats but I can't really assess your gear without armory.
If Popo wants to become a better Fury Warrior, he should come here and read through Voxx's Compendim, and get a rotation down. In the Gruul death I see that he cast Slam, and a couple Throw's. Throw's I could understand while he's waiting to be shattered, but the Slam is deffinately not what he want's to be doing.
And in the Maulgar death he's throwing a couple more times. Why is he out of melee range on that fight? There's always someone to hit.
His gear is decent I suppose, depending on where your guild or he is as far as content, Gruul/Mag level I'm guessing. However his talent's could use some work if he is a purely PVE warrior. If he also PVP's then they aren't bad (I don't so I'll defer to those that do) but his alterations of the 17/44 aren't helping him.
ManAtArms, can't find you in the Armory.
And in the Maulgar death he's throwing a couple more times. Why is he out of melee range on that fight? There's always someone to hit.
His gear is decent I suppose, depending on where your guild or he is as far as content, Gruul/Mag level I'm guessing. However his talent's could use some work if he is a purely PVE warrior. If he also PVP's then they aren't bad (I don't so I'll defer to those that do) but his alterations of the 17/44 aren't helping him.
ManAtArms, can't find you in the Armory.
I'm about to transfer to a new guild with a new name in a few days, so i figured simply updating the info now wouldn't be that big an issue.
Unbuffed i'm sitting around 1950 AP with 220 hit and 28% Crit. I've also been socketing Bold living ruby for just about all my gear slots, with the exception of the +Crit+STR gems in my chest and the Blue+Crit gems i'm using in my shoulder sockets. I've been pondering if dropping a few red gems for more crit would yield me a better result, but i'm inline for the Blood Stained shoulders and Grips from Akama, so i've been kind of iffy about playing with my gem selection pending my upgrades.
Unbuffed i'm sitting around 1950 AP with 220 hit and 28% Crit. I've also been socketing Bold living ruby for just about all my gear slots, with the exception of the +Crit+STR gems in my chest and the Blue+Crit gems i'm using in my shoulder sockets. I've been pondering if dropping a few red gems for more crit would yield me a better result, but i'm inline for the Blood Stained shoulders and Grips from Akama, so i've been kind of iffy about playing with my gem selection pending my upgrades.
So what's your character name now? Thought you said you were t4 level but you're raiding t6 content.
When I was Fury I had 2k unbuffed AP, 32% crit and ~100 hit rating and pulled over 1k DPS on good fights. Without knowing your usual group setup, what fights you're talking about, your armory and possibly some WWS reports I can't really say whether you're doing fine or could use improvement.
When I was Fury I had 2k unbuffed AP, 32% crit and ~100 hit rating and pulled over 1k DPS on good fights. Without knowing your usual group setup, what fights you're talking about, your armory and possibly some WWS reports I can't really say whether you're doing fine or could use improvement.
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Originally Posted by Rodandwa
Well 900 DPS is definitely higher than the fury warrior in my guild =/ I don't think I've ever seen him top 600 DPS, which is why I'm here. Would anyone mind taking a look at our latest WWS and tell me what he (Popo) is doing wrong? He's a good kid, but is young and not real high on theorycrafting and we don't have anyone in the guild thats really expert enough to tell him what he needs to fix. I think he'll listen to me, I just need to know what to tell him. Any advice?
Wow Web Stats Just a quick note - He showed up just as we were about to pull HKM, so he didn't get into a group with windfury. But in the past, he's had it and his DPS hasn't been much better so I'm sure he's just doing something (multiple things?) wrong. |
It may be that he's having problems managing his rage, or he's not concentrating on making sure that BT and WW are always used as soon as they become available.
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Originally Posted by Lavos
So what's your character name now? Thought you said you were t4 level but you're raiding t6 content.
When I was Fury I had 2k unbuffed AP, 32% crit and ~100 hit rating and pulled over 1k DPS on good fights. Without knowing your usual group setup, what fights you're talking about, your armory and possibly some WWS reports I can't really say whether you're doing fine or could use improvement. |
I've reregistered for the time using my current info, so that might help a bit.
I took that info from a Rage kill. I'm still new to using damage meters in raids due to raiding 2 years as prot, so i used Recount for that one fight and never used it again, because the data seemed somewhat skewed.(Or i had no idea how to read it, either way). If i remember right we were using 2 Rogues, myself, a Ret paladin, and a Feral on that attempt. I've got no rage issue's whatsoever in my current gear; always enough to hit my BT/WW's and throw in at least 2 Heroics in between cooldowns.. and i'm pretty sure my rotation is on target with what it should be.
As for the gear jump, it seems to me that(At least in my case) it's either people halfway through Hyjal/BT looking for my class, or people just starting 25 mans. I opted to take the high road based on doing this many times before as prot.
Hi there guys, I got a question concerning those poor underrated Righteous Weapon Coatings for dual wield. The proc chance seems to be very high, which means if u're off int cd, u should get proc in 2-3sec (5 most).
NOW! Big question!
Have anyone tried this for buff stacking moments? What you do is using it on a good offhand and keeping it in bag until 2-3secs before buff stacking (trinket if u got some + haste pot + drums from party, hero too maybe). Here's the simplier explanation:
Here's the typical battle plan:
0:00
1:00 2min cds (haste pots, drums, trinkets, etc)
2:00
3:00 2min cds + HERO + recklesness
4:00
5:00 2min cds (what the hell, not dead yet?)
etc
My idea:
0:00
0:57 weapon swap from offhand with 28crit sharp stone to offhand with Weapon Coating
1:00 2min cds... +300ap from Coating's proc
1:15-1:30 weapon swap back
2:57 weapon swap
3:00 2min cds + HERO + recklesness ... +300ap from Coating's proc
etc
Word of theorycraft: Let's assume we are doing steady dps. Swap costs us 1s gcd (or 1.5?). Swapping weapons and getting a proc gives us 1sec of no dps, 10sec of dps with 300ap and 1sec of no dps for swapping back. So, 10secs of dps with 300ap buff vs. 12secs dps with 28crit buff (regular sharp stone). That means, the dps with 300ap buff should be 20% better than dps with 28crit. No chance! But that's of course steady dps situation.
Let's assume raid situation with buff stacking, let's say we are at 2:57, right before getting hero + all cds stacking. Now, let's assume steady dps is 1500, and dps on hero time stacking 3.5k (depends on luck really, one time u get 4k for those 15secs of reckl, another u get 3k, because of some unlucky dodges or misses) Let's assing weapon swapings for worst dps moments, the steady dps between 2min cds - before hero and after hero for our situation. So, we got 10secs of 3.5k dps with 300ap boost vs. 2secs of 1500dps + 3.5k dps with 28crit boost.
How much better 300ap is from 28crit? 28crit is something around 60ap, so 300ap is better by 240ap, that's half battle shout, so around 7% (rough estimation).
SO!
3.5k dps + 7% is around 3950dps... for 10secs... around 39,5k dmg
3.5k dps for 10sec + 1.5k dps for 2secs... that's 35k + 3k... around 38k dmg
Weapon Coating may be better with weapon swapping for buff stacking moments then. Of course my calculations are based on misty numbers taken from looking at wwses, but they cannot be far from truth really. So the result of 39.5k vs 38k is close to something real. Swapping to Coating can be a bit better, can be a bit worse.
HAS ANY1 TESTED IT?
Gonna try it on Brutallus the Puss tonight, but I won't have good comparison anyway, since it will be first time in going all out fury on him (usuallu sitting in MS/bf spec with [Nightfall] and buffing all the raid).
NOW! Big question!
Have anyone tried this for buff stacking moments? What you do is using it on a good offhand and keeping it in bag until 2-3secs before buff stacking (trinket if u got some + haste pot + drums from party, hero too maybe). Here's the simplier explanation:
Here's the typical battle plan:
0:00
1:00 2min cds (haste pots, drums, trinkets, etc)
2:00
3:00 2min cds + HERO + recklesness
4:00
5:00 2min cds (what the hell, not dead yet?)
etc
My idea:
0:00
0:57 weapon swap from offhand with 28crit sharp stone to offhand with Weapon Coating
1:00 2min cds... +300ap from Coating's proc
1:15-1:30 weapon swap back
2:57 weapon swap
3:00 2min cds + HERO + recklesness ... +300ap from Coating's proc
etc
Word of theorycraft: Let's assume we are doing steady dps. Swap costs us 1s gcd (or 1.5?). Swapping weapons and getting a proc gives us 1sec of no dps, 10sec of dps with 300ap and 1sec of no dps for swapping back. So, 10secs of dps with 300ap buff vs. 12secs dps with 28crit buff (regular sharp stone). That means, the dps with 300ap buff should be 20% better than dps with 28crit. No chance! But that's of course steady dps situation.
Let's assume raid situation with buff stacking, let's say we are at 2:57, right before getting hero + all cds stacking. Now, let's assume steady dps is 1500, and dps on hero time stacking 3.5k (depends on luck really, one time u get 4k for those 15secs of reckl, another u get 3k, because of some unlucky dodges or misses) Let's assing weapon swapings for worst dps moments, the steady dps between 2min cds - before hero and after hero for our situation. So, we got 10secs of 3.5k dps with 300ap boost vs. 2secs of 1500dps + 3.5k dps with 28crit boost.
How much better 300ap is from 28crit? 28crit is something around 60ap, so 300ap is better by 240ap, that's half battle shout, so around 7% (rough estimation).
SO!
3.5k dps + 7% is around 3950dps... for 10secs... around 39,5k dmg
3.5k dps for 10sec + 1.5k dps for 2secs... that's 35k + 3k... around 38k dmg
Weapon Coating may be better with weapon swapping for buff stacking moments then. Of course my calculations are based on misty numbers taken from looking at wwses, but they cannot be far from truth really. So the result of 39.5k vs 38k is close to something real. Swapping to Coating can be a bit better, can be a bit worse.
HAS ANY1 TESTED IT?
Gonna try it on Brutallus the Puss tonight, but I won't have good comparison anyway, since it will be first time in going all out fury on him (usuallu sitting in MS/bf spec with [Nightfall] and buffing all the raid).
|
Originally Posted by Wump
And in the Maulgar death he's throwing a couple more times. Why is he out of melee range on that fight? There's always someone to hit. |
That aside, do you (Wump) usually stay inside Maulgars range when he whirlwinds? He usually hits me for around 5k an crits for 10k. So I normally run out for the WW's and use my xbow for a while. That's probably why Popo has some throws in that fight.
Good call on the Whirlwinds, I had forgotten about them. However we're at the stage where we've gotten him down before one. To be honest, it was most likely a very late whirlwind, but it's happened before.
Edited onPatch 2.4.1
I don't think the idea of swapping weapons for the coating has any practical use.
First, there are quite some flaws in your maths. Assuming 1,5k DPS doesn't seem right, when we killed Brutallus last week I was sitting at around 2-2.1k DPS with ~2060 on our kill. 7% total damage gain from 300 ap doesn't seem right either, that's true for Bloodthirst at most. Also you'd need a similar weapon to the one you're having the 28 crit coating on. And the last, probably biggest flaw is the assumption that the coating procs instantly when equipped, it does procc very fast but not instantly.
First, there are quite some flaws in your maths. Assuming 1,5k DPS doesn't seem right, when we killed Brutallus last week I was sitting at around 2-2.1k DPS with ~2060 on our kill. 7% total damage gain from 300 ap doesn't seem right either, that's true for Bloodthirst at most. Also you'd need a similar weapon to the one you're having the 28 crit coating on. And the last, probably biggest flaw is the assumption that the coating procs instantly when equipped, it does procc very fast but not instantly.
Last edited by Hidden : 04/24/08 at 2:33 PM.
Plus you lose a whole GCD from switching a weapon, and can mess-up your rotation.
Plus, when u get usually 30secs of buff stacking, not 10, so 10 with 300ap and 20 what.. without 28crit then. Swap immediatelly after 10secs and get gcd when under 30secs-buffs stacked?... yep, not worth it. But worth trying ;] Hell, I'm a searcher, that could have been a nice one.
Duel weilding DragonStrikes?! that's got to be an Error. Or something done on the PTR.
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Originally Posted by Drwal
Gonna try it on Brutallus the Puss tonight, but I won't have good comparison anyway, since it will be first time in going all out fury on him (usuallu sitting in MS/bf spec with [Nightfall] and buffing all the raid).
|
"[Nightfall] now has a chance to fail for targets above level 60"
|
Originally Posted by Drwal
Gonna try it on Brutallus the Puss tonight, but I won't have good comparison anyway, since it will be first time in going all out fury on him (usuallu sitting in MS/bf spec with [Nightfall] and buffing all the raid).
|
Give the axe to your prot warrior tank and tell him to use it when the other tank (usually a druid) is tanking.
Or maybe not, as Nightfall will be nerfed in the next patch anyway...
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Originally Posted by LodeRunner
Yeah, I guess I just come from a different perspective. We have two raiding DPS Warriors: one Arms, one Fury. We are almost never in the same raid at the same time. If we are, the Arms Warrior goes in the tank group and misses out on Unleashed Rage and the Bloodlust switching, but adds the 4% DPS to all physical classes. The 'melee' group tends to consist of a DPS Warrior, an Enhancement Shaman, and 3 Rogues. Sometimes a Rogue will get swapped out for our Ret Paladin. I wish I could get LotP, but cat DPS is so inferior to a Rogue's.
|
It seems like the fury warrior's DPS would have to be crazy far ahead of the arms warrior for this to achieve higher raid dps. If both my guild's fury warrior and I are in the same raid (I'm 2h w/BF) then I get the melee group as I see a bigger benefit from the shammy. Is there another reason why you guys set up that way?
I could be mistaken, but id still go with fury warrior in the enh shammie group I think. You will provide the debuff anyway, and eventho you get more from a shammie, you also have lower damage output then the fury warrior. Doesnt that mean that the higher dps output from the fury warrior would get more damage eventho the 2h warrior will get more out of it, but it increases an already lower dps?
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Originally Posted by bigfodee
I see a bigger benefit from the shammy.
|
A 2H makes marginally better use of WF Totem (present as well I'd imagine in the tank group). Fury makes better use of Unleashed Rage (directly affects BT value, scaling bonus with Imp Zerk Stance) as well as Lust (higher % of personal dps is white damage/HStrike damage).
Quite meaningless to argue who should go in that group or not, since it depends critically on the individual players skill and gear. It's up to the raid leader to determine what results in the highest RDPS.
...The arms warrior gets windfury too, it's not worth bringing him without it. It's just resto shaman vs enhance.
(not sure if this is the right place to post this)
I remember reading a while back a few posts on fury/prot hybrid builds when blizzard announced the changes to defiance. There was a bit of discussion on it and it was decided that 17/44 was still much better.
However I don't think that this:Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft spec was really tested.
While I know hard numbers are preferred I don't have the time at the moment to test it out. I recently specced 17/44 but was specced as 31/30 (the spec above) for quite some time in kara. If I remember correctly though the dps wasn't that different between the two specs (max round 30-50dps). While I admit I had a few teething problems with rampage the majority of the time I managed to keep it up.
The major difference I can see between the two specs is the loss of precision, which could somewhat be covered by the -1.5% chance for mobs do dodge with from defiance expertise, and the 250ap from rampage. Apart from that it would seem to be a showdown between Imp Zerker Stance and 1h Spec. I remember reading that at a certain point an increase in ap provides a larger dps benefit than weapon dps but can't quite remember the number. However am I correct in assuming 1h spec is a flat 10% dps increase?
I have plugged the numbers in to the war spreadsheets and found that 17/44 had a significant (80-100, can't remember the exact numbers) dps difference at my gear level however I was never able to even graze this number in kara. As a side note I have specced slam and managed to hit about 30dps off of the spreadsheets target so the difference can't be attributed too much to skill.
once again. apologies on the lack of numbers
I remember reading a while back a few posts on fury/prot hybrid builds when blizzard announced the changes to defiance. There was a bit of discussion on it and it was decided that 17/44 was still much better.
However I don't think that this:Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft spec was really tested.
While I know hard numbers are preferred I don't have the time at the moment to test it out. I recently specced 17/44 but was specced as 31/30 (the spec above) for quite some time in kara. If I remember correctly though the dps wasn't that different between the two specs (max round 30-50dps). While I admit I had a few teething problems with rampage the majority of the time I managed to keep it up.
The major difference I can see between the two specs is the loss of precision, which could somewhat be covered by the -1.5% chance for mobs do dodge with from defiance expertise, and the 250ap from rampage. Apart from that it would seem to be a showdown between Imp Zerker Stance and 1h Spec. I remember reading that at a certain point an increase in ap provides a larger dps benefit than weapon dps but can't quite remember the number. However am I correct in assuming 1h spec is a flat 10% dps increase?
I have plugged the numbers in to the war spreadsheets and found that 17/44 had a significant (80-100, can't remember the exact numbers) dps difference at my gear level however I was never able to even graze this number in kara. As a side note I have specced slam and managed to hit about 30dps off of the spreadsheets target so the difference can't be attributed too much to skill.
once again. apologies on the lack of numbers
The big issue for the arms warrior is having sufficient rage to keep up a full slam rotation. Being in a group with an enh shammy helps a LOT there and it's not just the windfury.
As such, it's not so much how much the fury warrior gains vs. how much the arms warrior gains, but more about whether the arms warrior is sitting there, unable to execute his slam cycle correctly and outputs meaningless dps.
Again though, gear makes a difference, as does putting the arms warrior in the tank group (if one of the tanks is a feral).
In my experience, imp LotP is usually enough to boost the arms warrior to perform adequately.
As such, it's not so much how much the fury warrior gains vs. how much the arms warrior gains, but more about whether the arms warrior is sitting there, unable to execute his slam cycle correctly and outputs meaningless dps.
Again though, gear makes a difference, as does putting the arms warrior in the tank group (if one of the tanks is a feral).
In my experience, imp LotP is usually enough to boost the arms warrior to perform adequately.
|
Originally Posted by Keishi
|
With regards to [DW] fury vs. arms for the bonus of an enh sham. I don't think it's a bad thing to uncover some misconceptions, and obviously everything needs to be put into perspective inside of each guild. One generalization never always applies.
|
Originally Posted by Touf
...The arms warrior gets windfury too, it's not worth bringing him without it. It's just resto shaman vs enhance.
|
Beaten to it, /sigh >_<
Which warrior gets which group should be entirely based on the flat dps increase that each sees from the "melee" group. If the arms warrior does 1200 dps, and gains 500 from being in the melee group but the fury warrior does 900 dps and gains 700 from being in that group, the fury warrior should go to that group instead. The raid gains more dps this way.
Regardless of whether the arms warrior can slam or not outside the group, if he can keep up the debuff he's doing his job. As long as the fury warrior gains more dps from that group he should be there. Even if the fury warrior does less dps than the arms, but gains a larger flat value, he should be in the group.
500 dps gained is less than 700 dps gained, no matter how much more dps the arms warrior does than the fury.
Obviously these are just random numbers to prove a point, in reality if the arms warrior actually gains more flat dps than the fury warrior then he should be in the group.
Regardless of whether the arms warrior can slam or not outside the group, if he can keep up the debuff he's doing his job. As long as the fury warrior gains more dps from that group he should be there. Even if the fury warrior does less dps than the arms, but gains a larger flat value, he should be in the group.
500 dps gained is less than 700 dps gained, no matter how much more dps the arms warrior does than the fury.
Obviously these are just random numbers to prove a point, in reality if the arms warrior actually gains more flat dps than the fury warrior then he should be in the group.
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Originally Posted by Mjollnir
Math behind this?
A 2H makes marginally better use of WF Totem (present as well I'd imagine in the tank group). Fury makes better use of Unleashed Rage (directly affects BT value, scaling bonus with Imp Zerk Stance) as well as Lust (higher % of personal dps is white damage/HStrike damage). |
Well let's say WF procs 5 times per minute. 5 hits from Cataclysm's Edge > 5 one-hander hits.
I'll put up some WWS when the pages aren't taking an hour to load, but for now all I can say is my dps on Archimonde is about 800-850 w/o WF and 1100 with it. Without WF I also get some lulls where I am rage-starved, which messes with my dps cycle and ability to keep up Blood Frenzy.
Windfury is a %chance to proc, with no cooldown. Therefore you'll get exactly the same %damage increase from the 2h and the 1h. The issues come in when you consider whether the offhand can proc windfury (not sure about this one however.) The big thing that favours 2h arms builds over dual wield fury for windfury is rage generation though. A non-windfury arms warrior will often be struggling to keep up their rotation, whereas a fury warrior does not have this issue. That is why it is generally accepted that a 2h warrior will gain more benefit out of WF.
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Originally Posted by bigfodee
Well let's say WF procs 5 times per minute. 5 hits from Cataclysm's Edge > 5 one-hander hits.
I'll put up some WWS when the pages aren't taking an hour to load, but for now all I can say is my dps on Archimonde is about 800-850 w/o WF and 1100 with it. Without WF I also get some lulls where I am rage-starved, which messes with my dps cycle and ability to keep up Blood Frenzy. |
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Originally Posted by bigfodee
Well let's say WF procs 5 times per minute. 5 hits from Cataclysm's Edge > 5 one-hander hits.
I'll put up some WWS when the pages aren't taking an hour to load, but for now all I can say is my dps on Archimonde is about 800-850 w/o WF and 1100 with it. Without WF I also get some lulls where I am rage-starved, which messes with my dps cycle and ability to keep up Blood Frenzy. |
2. You are arguing for WF totem, which has been stated previously would also be present in the tank group (usually).
3. LotP will yield better RDPS gains than unleashed rage due to higher BF uptime (I assume the vast majority of guilds run [2x rogue 1x warr 1x enh sham 1x WF using melee] in their melee group) which will probably be present in the tank group or the hunter group (for many guilds, these 2 are one and the same).
There are plenty of other factors, obviously, and any guild or raid leader who doesn't form strategies and group/raid composition based on his/her guild's makeup and players' abilities is a moron. Ie. the arms warrior has a Sapphire and the fury doesn't, the arms warrior puts out the dps he should but the fury has no clue what he's doing, etc.
Your stereotypical (let's not get too attached to playing devil's advocate) fury warrior will gain more from the Enh Sham's bag o' tricks than the arms. The arms is there primarily for BF while putting out 90% of what the fury is contributing- and should not be forgotten with group makeups and to be given WF and LotP if available.
Voxx pretty much summed it up.
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Originally Posted by orcsgotbooty
No offense but if your doing 1100 dps on archimonde as melee I'm not really sure why you would be brought at all, BF or not unless you brought about 15 melee dps..., is your wws/recount etc not counting your damage correctly?
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Originally Posted by Natural
I don't think it's proper to criticize someone's DPS on Archimonde. There is too much variability with bursts and fire to really make a fair comparison. Even if you subtract "non-dps" time, the calculation incorrectly measures low DPS when deep wounds is ticking and you are flying from an air burst.
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Between intercepting airburst and zerker raging fears I never thought of Archimonde as any harder than any other t6 fight in terms of dps time, the only time you really lose out on is when a doomfire gets kited into melee on the rare occasion.
(Dps as in damage divided by the seconds the fight lasts specifically)
When did you last do archimonde? You can no longer intercept the air burst and the fires are completely random. It used to be great for melee, now its pretty horrible.
Edited onPatch 2.4.1
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Originally Posted by Rishina
You can no longer intercept the air burst
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http://elitistjerks.com/724120-post1369.html
Edit: spelling.
Last edited by Mjollnir : 04/25/08 at 9:27 PM.
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Originally Posted by Mjollnir
|
Yeah I heard the stories about worse doomfires/airburst intercept problems since 2.4, but I hadn't even noticed really.
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Originally Posted by Rishina
When did you last do archimonde? You can no longer intercept the air burst and the fires are completely random. It used to be great for melee, now its pretty horrible.
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|
Originally Posted by Rishina
When did you last do archimonde? You can no longer intercept the air burst and the fires are completely random. It used to be great for melee, now its pretty horrible.
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Duel weilding DragonStrikes?! that's got to be an Error. Or something done on the PTR.
|
Originally Posted by Drwal
Gonna try it on Brutallus the Puss tonight, but I won't have good comparison anyway, since it will be first time in going all out fury on him (usuallu sitting in MS/bf spec with [Nightfall] and buffing all the raid).
|
"[Nightfall] now has a chance to fail for targets above level 60"
|
Originally Posted by Drwal
Gonna try it on Brutallus the Puss tonight, but I won't have good comparison anyway, since it will be first time in going all out fury on him (usuallu sitting in MS/bf spec with [Nightfall] and buffing all the raid).
|
Give the axe to your prot warrior tank and tell him to use it when the other tank (usually a druid) is tanking.
Or maybe not, as Nightfall will be nerfed in the next patch anyway...
|
Originally Posted by LodeRunner
Yeah, I guess I just come from a different perspective. We have two raiding DPS Warriors: one Arms, one Fury. We are almost never in the same raid at the same time. If we are, the Arms Warrior goes in the tank group and misses out on Unleashed Rage and the Bloodlust switching, but adds the 4% DPS to all physical classes. The 'melee' group tends to consist of a DPS Warrior, an Enhancement Shaman, and 3 Rogues. Sometimes a Rogue will get swapped out for our Ret Paladin. I wish I could get LotP, but cat DPS is so inferior to a Rogue's.
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It seems like the fury warrior's DPS would have to be crazy far ahead of the arms warrior for this to achieve higher raid dps. If both my guild's fury warrior and I are in the same raid (I'm 2h w/BF) then I get the melee group as I see a bigger benefit from the shammy. Is there another reason why you guys set up that way?
I could be mistaken, but id still go with fury warrior in the enh shammie group I think. You will provide the debuff anyway, and eventho you get more from a shammie, you also have lower damage output then the fury warrior. Doesnt that mean that the higher dps output from the fury warrior would get more damage eventho the 2h warrior will get more out of it, but it increases an already lower dps?
|
Originally Posted by bigfodee
I see a bigger benefit from the shammy.
|
A 2H makes marginally better use of WF Totem (present as well I'd imagine in the tank group). Fury makes better use of Unleashed Rage (directly affects BT value, scaling bonus with Imp Zerk Stance) as well as Lust (higher % of personal dps is white damage/HStrike damage).
Quite meaningless to argue who should go in that group or not, since it depends critically on the individual players skill and gear. It's up to the raid leader to determine what results in the highest RDPS.
...The arms warrior gets windfury too, it's not worth bringing him without it. It's just resto shaman vs enhance.
(not sure if this is the right place to post this)
I remember reading a while back a few posts on fury/prot hybrid builds when blizzard announced the changes to defiance. There was a bit of discussion on it and it was decided that 17/44 was still much better.
However I don't think that this:Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft spec was really tested.
While I know hard numbers are preferred I don't have the time at the moment to test it out. I recently specced 17/44 but was specced as 31/30 (the spec above) for quite some time in kara. If I remember correctly though the dps wasn't that different between the two specs (max round 30-50dps). While I admit I had a few teething problems with rampage the majority of the time I managed to keep it up.
The major difference I can see between the two specs is the loss of precision, which could somewhat be covered by the -1.5% chance for mobs do dodge with from defiance expertise, and the 250ap from rampage. Apart from that it would seem to be a showdown between Imp Zerker Stance and 1h Spec. I remember reading that at a certain point an increase in ap provides a larger dps benefit than weapon dps but can't quite remember the number. However am I correct in assuming 1h spec is a flat 10% dps increase?
I have plugged the numbers in to the war spreadsheets and found that 17/44 had a significant (80-100, can't remember the exact numbers) dps difference at my gear level however I was never able to even graze this number in kara. As a side note I have specced slam and managed to hit about 30dps off of the spreadsheets target so the difference can't be attributed too much to skill.
once again. apologies on the lack of numbers
I remember reading a while back a few posts on fury/prot hybrid builds when blizzard announced the changes to defiance. There was a bit of discussion on it and it was decided that 17/44 was still much better.
However I don't think that this:Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft spec was really tested.
While I know hard numbers are preferred I don't have the time at the moment to test it out. I recently specced 17/44 but was specced as 31/30 (the spec above) for quite some time in kara. If I remember correctly though the dps wasn't that different between the two specs (max round 30-50dps). While I admit I had a few teething problems with rampage the majority of the time I managed to keep it up.
The major difference I can see between the two specs is the loss of precision, which could somewhat be covered by the -1.5% chance for mobs do dodge with from defiance expertise, and the 250ap from rampage. Apart from that it would seem to be a showdown between Imp Zerker Stance and 1h Spec. I remember reading that at a certain point an increase in ap provides a larger dps benefit than weapon dps but can't quite remember the number. However am I correct in assuming 1h spec is a flat 10% dps increase?
I have plugged the numbers in to the war spreadsheets and found that 17/44 had a significant (80-100, can't remember the exact numbers) dps difference at my gear level however I was never able to even graze this number in kara. As a side note I have specced slam and managed to hit about 30dps off of the spreadsheets target so the difference can't be attributed too much to skill.
once again. apologies on the lack of numbers
The big issue for the arms warrior is having sufficient rage to keep up a full slam rotation. Being in a group with an enh shammy helps a LOT there and it's not just the windfury.
As such, it's not so much how much the fury warrior gains vs. how much the arms warrior gains, but more about whether the arms warrior is sitting there, unable to execute his slam cycle correctly and outputs meaningless dps.
Again though, gear makes a difference, as does putting the arms warrior in the tank group (if one of the tanks is a feral).
In my experience, imp LotP is usually enough to boost the arms warrior to perform adequately.
As such, it's not so much how much the fury warrior gains vs. how much the arms warrior gains, but more about whether the arms warrior is sitting there, unable to execute his slam cycle correctly and outputs meaningless dps.
Again though, gear makes a difference, as does putting the arms warrior in the tank group (if one of the tanks is a feral).
In my experience, imp LotP is usually enough to boost the arms warrior to perform adequately.
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Originally Posted by Keishi
|
With regards to [DW] fury vs. arms for the bonus of an enh sham. I don't think it's a bad thing to uncover some misconceptions, and obviously everything needs to be put into perspective inside of each guild. One generalization never always applies.
|
Originally Posted by Touf
...The arms warrior gets windfury too, it's not worth bringing him without it. It's just resto shaman vs enhance.
|
Beaten to it, /sigh >_<
Which warrior gets which group should be entirely based on the flat dps increase that each sees from the "melee" group. If the arms warrior does 1200 dps, and gains 500 from being in the melee group but the fury warrior does 900 dps and gains 700 from being in that group, the fury warrior should go to that group instead. The raid gains more dps this way.
Regardless of whether the arms warrior can slam or not outside the group, if he can keep up the debuff he's doing his job. As long as the fury warrior gains more dps from that group he should be there. Even if the fury warrior does less dps than the arms, but gains a larger flat value, he should be in the group.
500 dps gained is less than 700 dps gained, no matter how much more dps the arms warrior does than the fury.
Obviously these are just random numbers to prove a point, in reality if the arms warrior actually gains more flat dps than the fury warrior then he should be in the group.
Regardless of whether the arms warrior can slam or not outside the group, if he can keep up the debuff he's doing his job. As long as the fury warrior gains more dps from that group he should be there. Even if the fury warrior does less dps than the arms, but gains a larger flat value, he should be in the group.
500 dps gained is less than 700 dps gained, no matter how much more dps the arms warrior does than the fury.
Obviously these are just random numbers to prove a point, in reality if the arms warrior actually gains more flat dps than the fury warrior then he should be in the group.
|
Originally Posted by Mjollnir
Math behind this?
A 2H makes marginally better use of WF Totem (present as well I'd imagine in the tank group). Fury makes better use of Unleashed Rage (directly affects BT value, scaling bonus with Imp Zerk Stance) as well as Lust (higher % of personal dps is white damage/HStrike damage). |
Well let's say WF procs 5 times per minute. 5 hits from Cataclysm's Edge > 5 one-hander hits.
I'll put up some WWS when the pages aren't taking an hour to load, but for now all I can say is my dps on Archimonde is about 800-850 w/o WF and 1100 with it. Without WF I also get some lulls where I am rage-starved, which messes with my dps cycle and ability to keep up Blood Frenzy.
Windfury is a %chance to proc, with no cooldown. Therefore you'll get exactly the same %damage increase from the 2h and the 1h. The issues come in when you consider whether the offhand can proc windfury (not sure about this one however.) The big thing that favours 2h arms builds over dual wield fury for windfury is rage generation though. A non-windfury arms warrior will often be struggling to keep up their rotation, whereas a fury warrior does not have this issue. That is why it is generally accepted that a 2h warrior will gain more benefit out of WF.
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Originally Posted by bigfodee
Well let's say WF procs 5 times per minute. 5 hits from Cataclysm's Edge > 5 one-hander hits.
I'll put up some WWS when the pages aren't taking an hour to load, but for now all I can say is my dps on Archimonde is about 800-850 w/o WF and 1100 with it. Without WF I also get some lulls where I am rage-starved, which messes with my dps cycle and ability to keep up Blood Frenzy. |
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Originally Posted by bigfodee
Well let's say WF procs 5 times per minute. 5 hits from Cataclysm's Edge > 5 one-hander hits.
I'll put up some WWS when the pages aren't taking an hour to load, but for now all I can say is my dps on Archimonde is about 800-850 w/o WF and 1100 with it. Without WF I also get some lulls where I am rage-starved, which messes with my dps cycle and ability to keep up Blood Frenzy. |
2. You are arguing for WF totem, which has been stated previously would also be present in the tank group (usually).
3. LotP will yield better RDPS gains than unleashed rage due to higher BF uptime (I assume the vast majority of guilds run [2x rogue 1x warr 1x enh sham 1x WF using melee] in their melee group) which will probably be present in the tank group or the hunter group (for many guilds, these 2 are one and the same).
There are plenty of other factors, obviously, and any guild or raid leader who doesn't form strategies and group/raid composition based on his/her guild's makeup and players' abilities is a moron. Ie. the arms warrior has a Sapphire and the fury doesn't, the arms warrior puts out the dps he should but the fury has no clue what he's doing, etc.
Your stereotypical (let's not get too attached to playing devil's advocate) fury warrior will gain more from the Enh Sham's bag o' tricks than the arms. The arms is there primarily for BF while putting out 90% of what the fury is contributing- and should not be forgotten with group makeups and to be given WF and LotP if available.
Voxx pretty much summed it up.
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Originally Posted by orcsgotbooty
No offense but if your doing 1100 dps on archimonde as melee I'm not really sure why you would be brought at all, BF or not unless you brought about 15 melee dps..., is your wws/recount etc not counting your damage correctly?
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Originally Posted by Natural
I don't think it's proper to criticize someone's DPS on Archimonde. There is too much variability with bursts and fire to really make a fair comparison. Even if you subtract "non-dps" time, the calculation incorrectly measures low DPS when deep wounds is ticking and you are flying from an air burst.
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Between intercepting airburst and zerker raging fears I never thought of Archimonde as any harder than any other t6 fight in terms of dps time, the only time you really lose out on is when a doomfire gets kited into melee on the rare occasion.
(Dps as in damage divided by the seconds the fight lasts specifically)
When did you last do archimonde? You can no longer intercept the air burst and the fires are completely random. It used to be great for melee, now its pretty horrible.
Edited onPatch 2.4.1
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Originally Posted by Rishina
You can no longer intercept the air burst
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http://elitistjerks.com/724120-post1369.html
Edit: spelling.
Last edited by Mjollnir : 04/25/08 at 9:27 PM.
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Originally Posted by Mjollnir
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Yeah I heard the stories about worse doomfires/airburst intercept problems since 2.4, but I hadn't even noticed really.
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Originally Posted by Rishina
When did you last do archimonde? You can no longer intercept the air burst and the fires are completely random. It used to be great for melee, now its pretty horrible.
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Originally Posted by Rishina
When did you last do archimonde? You can no longer intercept the air burst and the fires are completely random. It used to be great for melee, now its pretty horrible.
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Edited onPatch 2.4.1
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Originally Posted by orcsgotbooty
No offense but if your doing 1100 dps on archimonde as melee I'm not really sure why you would be brought at all, BF or not unless you brought about 15 physical dps..., is your wws/recount etc not counting your damage correctly?
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What bearing on the current subject does my own DPS have? Since you asked, my current dps set is considerably better than the last time I was in on Archimonde, not to mention plenty of other reasons why my numbers on that fight could've been better. WWS of you doing 1800dps on archimonde?
Last edited by bigfodee : 04/26/08 at 6:46 PM.
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Originally Posted by Mjollnir
1. Posting WWS reports do nothing to argue your general case on 'which warrior is more deserving of the enhance sham' (the original discussion). They will show your personal gains, but nothing more.
2. You are arguing for WF totem, which has been stated previously would also be present in the tank group (usually). 3. LotP will yield better RDPS gains than unleashed rage due to higher BF uptime (I assume the vast majority of guilds run [2x rogue 1x warr 1x enh sham 1x WF using melee] in their melee group) which will probably be present in the tank group or the hunter group (for many guilds, these 2 are one and the same). There are plenty of other factors, obviously, and any guild or raid leader who doesn't form strategies and group/raid composition based on his/her guild's makeup and players' abilities is a moron. Ie. the arms warrior has a Sapphire and the fury doesn't, the arms warrior puts out the dps he should but the fury has no clue what he's doing, etc. Your stereotypical (let's not get too attached to playing devil's advocate) fury warrior will gain more from the Enh Sham's bag o' tricks than the arms. The arms is there primarily for BF while putting out 90% of what the fury is contributing- and should not be forgotten with group makeups and to be given WF and LotP if available. Voxx pretty much summed it up. |
The WWS is for the sake of not just spouting numbers.
As for the WF totem, I'm only concerned with our melee group which is usually 2x Rogue, 1 Warr, 1 Enhance Shammy, and a Ret Pally.
I'll just get back to the point of my original statement. If you're bringing a BF warrior, he's going to need the WF or else he may as well just go spec fury.
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Originally Posted by bigfodee
I'll just get back to the point of my original statement. If you're bringing a BF warrior, he's going to need the WF or else he may as well just go spec fury.
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First off, there have been warriors on this forum that have output nearly identical numbers in terms of dps without using a single slam to those that do use slam. I'm assuming your comment about windfury and the BF warrior is in regards to the fact that the BF warrior wouldn't be able to keep up his slam rotation without windfury.
I was under the impression that the entire reason of bringing a BF warrior is that he can do decent dps, and keep the debuff up close to 100% of the time. If you're really struggling with keeping the debuff up just by keeping the crits flowing, then you can actually go to battle stance for a second there, hit rend, and then go back to zerker. It's not the end of the world.
The most blatantly odd thing about that statement is that the BF warrior's dps comes from his dps... as well as the dps he contributes from the BF debuff. The fury warrior on the other hand brings nothing to the table other than his own dps (disregarding debuffs, as both specs can do that).
It would seem to me, that if one of the two specs were to lose out on windfury, it should be the BF warrior. The fury warrior loses a percent of his entire dps contribution, while the BF warrior loses a percent, of a portion of his dps contribution. The other physical dps that are benefiting from the BF debuff will see no reduction in dps if the BF warrior doesn't have windfury unless for some reason your BF uptime magically drops by a phenomenal amount just by losing windfury.
As far as I understand and know, WF is a higher percentage increase for an Arms warrior than for a Fury one. Fine. But in the end the percentage increase is not the important one. What is important is that the warrior who has the higher absolute increase in DPS should get WF. Example (with imaginary numbers just to make my point clear):
Arms: 1600 DPS, Fury: 2000 DPS
Arms gains 12% more DPS, which means 1600*1.12=1792
Fury gains 10% more DPS, which means 2000*1.1=2200
The RDPS gain for giving WF to Arms: 1792-1600 = 192
The RDPS gain for giving WF to Fury: 2200-2000=200
As you can see, in this case, giving the WF totem to the Fury warrior would be more beneficial. But this case is close and of course in your specific raid the numbers are prbably different. I also don't know exactly how much of a percentage increase WF would theoretically be for Arms and Fury warriors. As I said, I made up numbers.
Arms: 1600 DPS, Fury: 2000 DPS
Arms gains 12% more DPS, which means 1600*1.12=1792
Fury gains 10% more DPS, which means 2000*1.1=2200
The RDPS gain for giving WF to Arms: 1792-1600 = 192
The RDPS gain for giving WF to Fury: 2200-2000=200
As you can see, in this case, giving the WF totem to the Fury warrior would be more beneficial. But this case is close and of course in your specific raid the numbers are prbably different. I also don't know exactly how much of a percentage increase WF would theoretically be for Arms and Fury warriors. As I said, I made up numbers.
So, has anyone confirmed that you can dual wield Dragonstrike next patch and stack the haste proc yet? I'm very interested to see if this is true, because I'll just craft myself another Dragonstrike if the haste procs stack.
I would try it out myself, but I can't get on the PTR at all, unfortunately.
I would try it out myself, but I can't get on the PTR at all, unfortunately.
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Originally Posted by Spuddelkopf
As far as I understand and know, WF is a higher percentage increase for an Arms warrior than for a Fury one. Fine. But in the end the percentage increase is not the important one. What is important is that the warrior who has the higher absolute increase in DPS should get WF. Example (with imaginary numbers just to make my point clear):
Arms: 1600 DPS, Fury: 2000 DPS Arms gains 12% more DPS, which means 1600*1.12=1792 Fury gains 10% more DPS, which means 2000*1.1=2200 The RDPS gain for giving WF to Arms: 1792-1600 = 192 The RDPS gain for giving WF to Fury: 2200-2000=200 As you can see, in this case, giving the WF totem to the Fury warrior would be more beneficial. But this case is close and of course in your specific raid the numbers are prbably different. I also don't know exactly how much of a percentage increase WF would theoretically be for Arms and Fury warriors. As I said, I made up numbers. |
A warrior wielding a 2handed weapon WILL benefit more from windfury than a DW-fury will.
I doubt I would push 1600dps on brut as arms without windfury, and with it 1800dps isn't really that hard.
But then again, why would you ever bring two dpswarriors unless both of them can get a proper meleegroup?
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Originally Posted by bigfodee
What bearing on the current subject does my own DPS have? Since you asked, my current dps set is considerably better than the last time I was in on Archimonde, not to mention plenty of other reasons why my numbers on that fight could've been better. WWS of you doing 1800dps on archimonde?
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It was more of a suggestion to double check your log/mods etc to make sure they are recording correctly /shrug but you can get all angry and such if you'd like.
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Originally Posted by Werelds
So, has anyone confirmed that you can dual wield Dragonstrike next patch and stack the haste proc yet? I'm very interested to see if this is true, because I'll just craft myself another Dragonstrike if the haste procs stack.
I would try it out myself, but I can't get on the PTR at all, unfortunately. |
Yes the procs stack indeed. Here is WWS from quick test.
I've been reading these forums for a while now, just decided to register.
My guild uses two DPS warriors. I'm fury, the other 2H BF. I usually get put in the melee group(enh shaman, ret paladin, 2 rogues, myself) and he gets put in the hunters group (resto shaman, feral druid, 2 hunters, BF warrior). The resto shaman only drops GoA but the crit from GoA and LotP seem to be enough to keep BF up.
My guild uses two DPS warriors. I'm fury, the other 2H BF. I usually get put in the melee group(enh shaman, ret paladin, 2 rogues, myself) and he gets put in the hunters group (resto shaman, feral druid, 2 hunters, BF warrior). The resto shaman only drops GoA but the crit from GoA and LotP seem to be enough to keep BF up.
Is he really bad or something? You could switch him with one of the rogues. Unless their levels are very different that should be better. Otherwise you could just...bring someone else.
Like Touf said, you should consider swapping him with one of the rogues.
I'm not quite sure which class would benefit more from unleashed rage, but your 2h warrior will benefit more from the windfury than the rogue, who would probably benefit more from the grace of air totem than your warrior.
The logic behind windfury being better for a 2h warrior is because its a single weapon enchant and the 2h naturally has more damage.
I play a 2h BF warrior myself, and I can guarantee you on fights like Brutallus, windfury is a lifesaver in terms of rage generation.
I'm not quite sure which class would benefit more from unleashed rage, but your 2h warrior will benefit more from the windfury than the rogue, who would probably benefit more from the grace of air totem than your warrior.
The logic behind windfury being better for a 2h warrior is because its a single weapon enchant and the 2h naturally has more damage.
I play a 2h BF warrior myself, and I can guarantee you on fights like Brutallus, windfury is a lifesaver in terms of rage generation.
Edited onPatch 2.4.1
It's not just the fact you lose wind fury.
Wind fury accounts for ~6.5% of my total dps on a fight like brutallus.
However, I lose another ~5% from losing unleashed rage and improved totems.
Being in a non optimised leatherworking group would not be fun either.
However, I would suspect that most fury warriors would find it difficult to justify their raid spot without being in the melee dps group. Blood frenzy may be enough to justify a spot in another group but it would depend greatly on the raid setup.
I suppose it doesn't matter much as long as the bosses are being downed.
On a side note WWS of Archimonde over 1900dps. Melee got 4 air bursts, dodged one and intercepted the other three.
Wind fury accounts for ~6.5% of my total dps on a fight like brutallus.
However, I lose another ~5% from losing unleashed rage and improved totems.
Being in a non optimised leatherworking group would not be fun either.
However, I would suspect that most fury warriors would find it difficult to justify their raid spot without being in the melee dps group. Blood frenzy may be enough to justify a spot in another group but it would depend greatly on the raid setup.
I suppose it doesn't matter much as long as the bosses are being downed.
On a side note WWS of Archimonde over 1900dps. Melee got 4 air bursts, dodged one and intercepted the other three.
Last edited by Cavein : 04/28/08 at 7:59 AM.
Edited onPatch 2.4.1
Is a 2H going to make more use of WF than a DW'er? The more I think about it the less I am convinced.
There are a plethora, yes, of 2h warriors that play w/o using Slam, but I can assume with reason that well beyond the majority have adopted the White~>Slam~>Instant rotation. As such, haste has limited benefits. There is no disputing this.
Flurry: A DW'ing warrior will have on avg 85%-90% of all white attacks hastened by 25%. A 2h MS/BF debuffer will have about the same uptime but with a cap of 15%. Why is this important? WF, obviously, will proc more often for a DW'er than a 2h. There is nothing to be done about this, as the 2h is talent capped by taking BF.
'But a 2h hits harder'. Sure, but let's now bleed this into attack power. If I have 3000 att pwr raid buffed, that is going to be directly applied to my 2h, or directly applied to my MH/OH. If I have 4000 att pwr, the same holds true. Thus, the difference between a 2H and a 1H MH is going to remain constant, but the ratio will dwindle the more gear is involved. As gear is factored in, the DW will 'gain ground' on the 2h in terms of WF usage.
That is for WF, but all shams can give a warrior that crack. As for the added benefits from an Enh Sham:
On the topic of attack power... unleashed rage, without question, is better used with a fury than an arms. It directly stacks with Imp Zerk Stance, and directly influences BT. MS is normalized, whereas Slam is not. There are tradeoffs with a DW performing more HStrikes, but in the end, I'd find it hard for anyone to dispute the fact that UR and IBS multiply each other's benefit, and in turn, directly influence the main rage burnoff for the respective tree (BT) whereas a 2h gains 10% more ap, and the gain is normalized.
Lust? Drums? No question: DW fury. On avg 60-65% of a DW is white dmg or HStrike dmg, compared to an avg of about 50% of an MS/BF. For Slam users: haste is not uniformly beneficial.
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A fury warrior justifies their raid slot by
1. providing BShout to a group
2. personal output.
An arms warrior justifies their raid slot pretty much simply by
1. applying BF and that's it.
Personal output with as little as 6 other physical dps classes allows the arms warrior to slack to 80% of whatever the fury is capable of doing to have the same total RDPS.
I've seen some 2h PvE warriors put out crazy dps, and there are WWS reports of 2h warriors breaking 2.5k dps on Teron, but I've also seen fury break 3k on these same reports.
All things being equal: be it gear, playstyle, grouping, etc. a Fury will make more use of an Enh Sham than an Arms, not only because of the stacking mechanics, but because he has to. Because if he doesn't, he's deadweight and shouldn't be in the raid. The arms needs a melee group to justify his raid slot by merely slapping up BF (simplified). Anything on top of this is just icing on the proverbial cake that is RDPS.
There are a plethora, yes, of 2h warriors that play w/o using Slam, but I can assume with reason that well beyond the majority have adopted the White~>Slam~>Instant rotation. As such, haste has limited benefits. There is no disputing this.
Flurry: A DW'ing warrior will have on avg 85%-90% of all white attacks hastened by 25%. A 2h MS/BF debuffer will have about the same uptime but with a cap of 15%. Why is this important? WF, obviously, will proc more often for a DW'er than a 2h. There is nothing to be done about this, as the 2h is talent capped by taking BF.
'But a 2h hits harder'. Sure, but let's now bleed this into attack power. If I have 3000 att pwr raid buffed, that is going to be directly applied to my 2h, or directly applied to my MH/OH. If I have 4000 att pwr, the same holds true. Thus, the difference between a 2H and a 1H MH is going to remain constant, but the ratio will dwindle the more gear is involved. As gear is factored in, the DW will 'gain ground' on the 2h in terms of WF usage.
That is for WF, but all shams can give a warrior that crack. As for the added benefits from an Enh Sham:
On the topic of attack power... unleashed rage, without question, is better used with a fury than an arms. It directly stacks with Imp Zerk Stance, and directly influences BT. MS is normalized, whereas Slam is not. There are tradeoffs with a DW performing more HStrikes, but in the end, I'd find it hard for anyone to dispute the fact that UR and IBS multiply each other's benefit, and in turn, directly influence the main rage burnoff for the respective tree (BT) whereas a 2h gains 10% more ap, and the gain is normalized.
Lust? Drums? No question: DW fury. On avg 60-65% of a DW is white dmg or HStrike dmg, compared to an avg of about 50% of an MS/BF. For Slam users: haste is not uniformly beneficial.
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A fury warrior justifies their raid slot by
1. providing BShout to a group
2. personal output.
An arms warrior justifies their raid slot pretty much simply by
1. applying BF and that's it.
Personal output with as little as 6 other physical dps classes allows the arms warrior to slack to 80% of whatever the fury is capable of doing to have the same total RDPS.
I've seen some 2h PvE warriors put out crazy dps, and there are WWS reports of 2h warriors breaking 2.5k dps on Teron, but I've also seen fury break 3k on these same reports.
All things being equal: be it gear, playstyle, grouping, etc. a Fury will make more use of an Enh Sham than an Arms, not only because of the stacking mechanics, but because he has to. Because if he doesn't, he's deadweight and shouldn't be in the raid. The arms needs a melee group to justify his raid slot by merely slapping up BF (simplified). Anything on top of this is just icing on the proverbial cake that is RDPS.
Last edited by Mjollnir : 04/28/08 at 7:23 AM.
I don't want to interrupt this discussion, but what about Solarian's Sapphire in Sunwell? Still the best trinket for progress-raids or is e.g. Shard of Contempt better, because it scales with better gear.
Depends. SS is better if you have 5 "high dps" melee in your group. I usually have our feral tank and it provides more dps to use shard. Then on other hand - solarian gives them more threat. Its hard to decide. But in raw dps numbers it seems that
3 pure dpsers (including you) - Shard
4 - either, depends on circumstances
5 -SS
3 pure dpsers (including you) - Shard
4 - either, depends on circumstances
5 -SS
Greetings, I have spent a while reading all these different forums on how to optimise my warriors DPS, 90% of the time i am MT for the guild, but i enjoy 5v5 arena with a few of my guild mates, how ever saddly, I do not get to go DPS very often, but when i do get a break, i like to make the best of it, before i read a few of these warrior posts i was totaly clueless for the most part tbh.
I am currently wearing mostly arena gear, with a few pve items (I find it hard to find arms gear without haste and hit) where as currently my hit is capped, and world breaker, so i reckon my damage output should be quite high, the rotation i am currently using is, Auto,MS,Auto (Thats to start off my dps cycle) then following on from auto, Slam, WW, Auto, Slam, MS, Auto, Slam, etc etc. But i find even with this rotation (Timed correctly) and half decent pve/pvp arms gear, i do not seem to breach over 800dps (When not using windfury) I am not sure if this is natural for arms warriors to do less dps, but more damage, or if simply i should just throw my 2h away and go fury, all tips would be welcome, looking to breach 1k-1.2k dps next time without wf, thanks
I am currently wearing mostly arena gear, with a few pve items (I find it hard to find arms gear without haste and hit) where as currently my hit is capped, and world breaker, so i reckon my damage output should be quite high, the rotation i am currently using is, Auto,MS,Auto (Thats to start off my dps cycle) then following on from auto, Slam, WW, Auto, Slam, MS, Auto, Slam, etc etc. But i find even with this rotation (Timed correctly) and half decent pve/pvp arms gear, i do not seem to breach over 800dps (When not using windfury) I am not sure if this is natural for arms warriors to do less dps, but more damage, or if simply i should just throw my 2h away and go fury, all tips would be welcome, looking to breach 1k-1.2k dps next time without wf, thanks
Hmm, I really doubt you'll breach 1k dps even as DW fury unless you have optimum buffs. Without WF, unleashed rage, LoTP I think 900-1k is quite normal for a SSC/TK geared DW warrior. As arms hybrid you'll do less personal dps than that, not breaching 800 seems more or less normal to me.
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Originally Posted by Simprider
Yes the procs stack indeed. Here is WWS from quick test.
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http://anipop.org/double_dragonstrike_2proc.jpg
You'll see two haste buffs from the maces up simultaneously.
I'm fearful they'll change it and make them share an internal CD.
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Originally Posted by Wafzig
And here's a screenshot of a Shaman dual wielding them on the PTR.
http://anipop.org/double_dragonstrike_2proc.jpg You'll see two haste buffs from the maces up simultaneously. I'm fearful they'll change it and make them share an internal CD. |
Though I guess a simultaneous proc would be like having Warglaives, just with maces
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Originally Posted by Giantlol
I'm tempted to make a second one, but it just doesnt seem worth the overall cost unless you absolutely can't get another 1her D=
Though I guess a simultaneous proc would be like having Warglaives, just with maces |
You can do some quick math and figure out what the "average" haste value of the weapon is based on that and see if it is worth it compared to what you are currently using.
Just do something like your flurry uptime % *.25 for your built in haste, then the mainhand dstrike haste (like 24% i forgot), and whatever other things you have. Then figure out how many swings per minute you get, dont forget to add in like 6 more from whirlwind. Then multiply it by the % chance of the weapon proc thats the total uptime, then just multiply it by the haste rating and you have the average haste per minute.
I am currently having a difficult time with my DPS and am consistently sitting around 1500dps on Brut despite the fact that I think I can/should be higher - and this is unfortunately the trend I’m experiencing on all our bosses at the moment.
I was hoping I could get some assistance as to what I am doing incorrectly. I’ve done a lot of reading but I am obviously missing something.
My Armory - The World of Warcraft Armory
WWS of our Brut kill - Bluefang - WWS
My current Hit rotation consists of BT and WW on every CD with HS over 50rage.
I usually am in a group with two other rogues, a hunter and an enhancement Shaman - no feral druid.
On fights like Brut I’m chugging Haste pots on CD, and have 2-3 drums of battle in my group.
The weapons Im currently using are Dragonstrike (executioner) and Mountaing Vengance (mongoose) however I also have Risingtide (executioner) as well for another option.
I’m sitting around 210 hit rating with Leggings of Endless Rage, and around 180 with Leggings of Devine Retribution and approx 33-34% crit.
So based on that is there anything you see wrong, perhaps with my gear choices?
The other thing I noticed from looking at other guilds WWS's is that despite me having more +hit rating, I do seem to be missing more and a lot of it is on my yellow attacks like execute and BT. When compared to say some warriors that have much less hit (say in the range of 5% less), yet they aren’t missing so much according to WWS's I’ve looked at. I do find this quite puzzling.
The only other piece of info I can think of is that I’m in Australia and constantly raid with latency of around 200-300. Could this play any factor?
Any advice would be most appreciated, thank you.
(side point, Dreadmaul the new Oceanic server is not on the realm selection list, hence why it is not listed in my profile)
I was hoping I could get some assistance as to what I am doing incorrectly. I’ve done a lot of reading but I am obviously missing something.
My Armory - The World of Warcraft Armory
WWS of our Brut kill - Bluefang - WWS
My current Hit rotation consists of BT and WW on every CD with HS over 50rage.
I usually am in a group with two other rogues, a hunter and an enhancement Shaman - no feral druid.
On fights like Brut I’m chugging Haste pots on CD, and have 2-3 drums of battle in my group.
The weapons Im currently using are Dragonstrike (executioner) and Mountaing Vengance (mongoose) however I also have Risingtide (executioner) as well for another option.
I’m sitting around 210 hit rating with Leggings of Endless Rage, and around 180 with Leggings of Devine Retribution and approx 33-34% crit.
So based on that is there anything you see wrong, perhaps with my gear choices?
The other thing I noticed from looking at other guilds WWS's is that despite me having more +hit rating, I do seem to be missing more and a lot of it is on my yellow attacks like execute and BT. When compared to say some warriors that have much less hit (say in the range of 5% less), yet they aren’t missing so much according to WWS's I’ve looked at. I do find this quite puzzling.
The only other piece of info I can think of is that I’m in Australia and constantly raid with latency of around 200-300. Could this play any factor?
Any advice would be most appreciated, thank you.
(side point, Dreadmaul the new Oceanic server is not on the realm selection list, hence why it is not listed in my profile)
| The other thing I noticed from looking at other guilds WWS's is that despite me having more +hit rating, I do seem to be missing more and a lot of it is on my yellow attacks like execute and BT. When compared to say some warriors that have much less hit (say in the range of 5% less), yet they aren’t missing so much according to WWS's I’ve looked at. I do find this quite puzzling. |
Edit: Click on the expand all rows-button on your Dmg Out-tab on the WWS report and you'll see proof of this with actual parry percentages.
Not only will getting parried that much hurt your personal DPS, but leads to your tank taking alot of excess damage. On Brut, that can be a major issue!
Gearing choices look decent, only thing I would point out is ArP, either stack it, or dont, It's only super valuable in large quanitites and has exponential returns the higher you stack it. That being said, brut has pertty high AC, might wanna use straigh AP/CRIT gear for him.
Gearing choices look decent, only thing I would point out is ArP, either stack it, or dont, It's only super valuable in large quanitites and has exponential returns the higher you stack it. That being said, brut has pertty high AC, might wanna use straigh AP/CRIT gear for him.
Brut's parry mechanic has actually been disabled seeing as he hits hard enough to slaughter tanks without parry-haste.
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Originally Posted by Gruntle
Hmm, I really doubt you'll breach 1k dps even as DW fury unless you have optimum buffs. Without WF, unleashed rage, LoTP I think 900-1k is quite normal for a SSC/TK geared DW warrior. As arms hybrid you'll do less personal dps than that, not breaching 800 seems more or less normal to me.
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Edited onPatch 2.4.1
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Originally Posted by orcsgotbooty
No offense but if your doing 1100 dps on archimonde as melee I'm not really sure why you would be brought at all, BF or not unless you brought about 15 physical dps..., is your wws/recount etc not counting your damage correctly?
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What bearing on the current subject does my own DPS have? Since you asked, my current dps set is considerably better than the last time I was in on Archimonde, not to mention plenty of other reasons why my numbers on that fight could've been better. WWS of you doing 1800dps on archimonde?
Last edited by bigfodee : 04/26/08 at 6:46 PM.
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Originally Posted by Mjollnir
1. Posting WWS reports do nothing to argue your general case on 'which warrior is more deserving of the enhance sham' (the original discussion). They will show your personal gains, but nothing more.
2. You are arguing for WF totem, which has been stated previously would also be present in the tank group (usually). 3. LotP will yield better RDPS gains than unleashed rage due to higher BF uptime (I assume the vast majority of guilds run [2x rogue 1x warr 1x enh sham 1x WF using melee] in their melee group) which will probably be present in the tank group or the hunter group (for many guilds, these 2 are one and the same). There are plenty of other factors, obviously, and any guild or raid leader who doesn't form strategies and group/raid composition based on his/her guild's makeup and players' abilities is a moron. Ie. the arms warrior has a Sapphire and the fury doesn't, the arms warrior puts out the dps he should but the fury has no clue what he's doing, etc. Your stereotypical (let's not get too attached to playing devil's advocate) fury warrior will gain more from the Enh Sham's bag o' tricks than the arms. The arms is there primarily for BF while putting out 90% of what the fury is contributing- and should not be forgotten with group makeups and to be given WF and LotP if available. Voxx pretty much summed it up. |
The WWS is for the sake of not just spouting numbers.
As for the WF totem, I'm only concerned with our melee group which is usually 2x Rogue, 1 Warr, 1 Enhance Shammy, and a Ret Pally.
I'll just get back to the point of my original statement. If you're bringing a BF warrior, he's going to need the WF or else he may as well just go spec fury.
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Originally Posted by bigfodee
I'll just get back to the point of my original statement. If you're bringing a BF warrior, he's going to need the WF or else he may as well just go spec fury.
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First off, there have been warriors on this forum that have output nearly identical numbers in terms of dps without using a single slam to those that do use slam. I'm assuming your comment about windfury and the BF warrior is in regards to the fact that the BF warrior wouldn't be able to keep up his slam rotation without windfury.
I was under the impression that the entire reason of bringing a BF warrior is that he can do decent dps, and keep the debuff up close to 100% of the time. If you're really struggling with keeping the debuff up just by keeping the crits flowing, then you can actually go to battle stance for a second there, hit rend, and then go back to zerker. It's not the end of the world.
The most blatantly odd thing about that statement is that the BF warrior's dps comes from his dps... as well as the dps he contributes from the BF debuff. The fury warrior on the other hand brings nothing to the table other than his own dps (disregarding debuffs, as both specs can do that).
It would seem to me, that if one of the two specs were to lose out on windfury, it should be the BF warrior. The fury warrior loses a percent of his entire dps contribution, while the BF warrior loses a percent, of a portion of his dps contribution. The other physical dps that are benefiting from the BF debuff will see no reduction in dps if the BF warrior doesn't have windfury unless for some reason your BF uptime magically drops by a phenomenal amount just by losing windfury.
As far as I understand and know, WF is a higher percentage increase for an Arms warrior than for a Fury one. Fine. But in the end the percentage increase is not the important one. What is important is that the warrior who has the higher absolute increase in DPS should get WF. Example (with imaginary numbers just to make my point clear):
Arms: 1600 DPS, Fury: 2000 DPS
Arms gains 12% more DPS, which means 1600*1.12=1792
Fury gains 10% more DPS, which means 2000*1.1=2200
The RDPS gain for giving WF to Arms: 1792-1600 = 192
The RDPS gain for giving WF to Fury: 2200-2000=200
As you can see, in this case, giving the WF totem to the Fury warrior would be more beneficial. But this case is close and of course in your specific raid the numbers are prbably different. I also don't know exactly how much of a percentage increase WF would theoretically be for Arms and Fury warriors. As I said, I made up numbers.
Arms: 1600 DPS, Fury: 2000 DPS
Arms gains 12% more DPS, which means 1600*1.12=1792
Fury gains 10% more DPS, which means 2000*1.1=2200
The RDPS gain for giving WF to Arms: 1792-1600 = 192
The RDPS gain for giving WF to Fury: 2200-2000=200
As you can see, in this case, giving the WF totem to the Fury warrior would be more beneficial. But this case is close and of course in your specific raid the numbers are prbably different. I also don't know exactly how much of a percentage increase WF would theoretically be for Arms and Fury warriors. As I said, I made up numbers.
So, has anyone confirmed that you can dual wield Dragonstrike next patch and stack the haste proc yet? I'm very interested to see if this is true, because I'll just craft myself another Dragonstrike if the haste procs stack.
I would try it out myself, but I can't get on the PTR at all, unfortunately.
I would try it out myself, but I can't get on the PTR at all, unfortunately.
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Originally Posted by Spuddelkopf
As far as I understand and know, WF is a higher percentage increase for an Arms warrior than for a Fury one. Fine. But in the end the percentage increase is not the important one. What is important is that the warrior who has the higher absolute increase in DPS should get WF. Example (with imaginary numbers just to make my point clear):
Arms: 1600 DPS, Fury: 2000 DPS Arms gains 12% more DPS, which means 1600*1.12=1792 Fury gains 10% more DPS, which means 2000*1.1=2200 The RDPS gain for giving WF to Arms: 1792-1600 = 192 The RDPS gain for giving WF to Fury: 2200-2000=200 As you can see, in this case, giving the WF totem to the Fury warrior would be more beneficial. But this case is close and of course in your specific raid the numbers are prbably different. I also don't know exactly how much of a percentage increase WF would theoretically be for Arms and Fury warriors. As I said, I made up numbers. |
A warrior wielding a 2handed weapon WILL benefit more from windfury than a DW-fury will.
I doubt I would push 1600dps on brut as arms without windfury, and with it 1800dps isn't really that hard.
But then again, why would you ever bring two dpswarriors unless both of them can get a proper meleegroup?
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Originally Posted by bigfodee
What bearing on the current subject does my own DPS have? Since you asked, my current dps set is considerably better than the last time I was in on Archimonde, not to mention plenty of other reasons why my numbers on that fight could've been better. WWS of you doing 1800dps on archimonde?
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It was more of a suggestion to double check your log/mods etc to make sure they are recording correctly /shrug but you can get all angry and such if you'd like.
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Originally Posted by Werelds
So, has anyone confirmed that you can dual wield Dragonstrike next patch and stack the haste proc yet? I'm very interested to see if this is true, because I'll just craft myself another Dragonstrike if the haste procs stack.
I would try it out myself, but I can't get on the PTR at all, unfortunately. |
Yes the procs stack indeed. Here is WWS from quick test.
I've been reading these forums for a while now, just decided to register.
My guild uses two DPS warriors. I'm fury, the other 2H BF. I usually get put in the melee group(enh shaman, ret paladin, 2 rogues, myself) and he gets put in the hunters group (resto shaman, feral druid, 2 hunters, BF warrior). The resto shaman only drops GoA but the crit from GoA and LotP seem to be enough to keep BF up.
My guild uses two DPS warriors. I'm fury, the other 2H BF. I usually get put in the melee group(enh shaman, ret paladin, 2 rogues, myself) and he gets put in the hunters group (resto shaman, feral druid, 2 hunters, BF warrior). The resto shaman only drops GoA but the crit from GoA and LotP seem to be enough to keep BF up.
Is he really bad or something? You could switch him with one of the rogues. Unless their levels are very different that should be better. Otherwise you could just...bring someone else.
Like Touf said, you should consider swapping him with one of the rogues.
I'm not quite sure which class would benefit more from unleashed rage, but your 2h warrior will benefit more from the windfury than the rogue, who would probably benefit more from the grace of air totem than your warrior.
The logic behind windfury being better for a 2h warrior is because its a single weapon enchant and the 2h naturally has more damage.
I play a 2h BF warrior myself, and I can guarantee you on fights like Brutallus, windfury is a lifesaver in terms of rage generation.
I'm not quite sure which class would benefit more from unleashed rage, but your 2h warrior will benefit more from the windfury than the rogue, who would probably benefit more from the grace of air totem than your warrior.
The logic behind windfury being better for a 2h warrior is because its a single weapon enchant and the 2h naturally has more damage.
I play a 2h BF warrior myself, and I can guarantee you on fights like Brutallus, windfury is a lifesaver in terms of rage generation.
Edited onPatch 2.4.1
It's not just the fact you lose wind fury.
Wind fury accounts for ~6.5% of my total dps on a fight like brutallus.
However, I lose another ~5% from losing unleashed rage and improved totems.
Being in a non optimised leatherworking group would not be fun either.
However, I would suspect that most fury warriors would find it difficult to justify their raid spot without being in the melee dps group. Blood frenzy may be enough to justify a spot in another group but it would depend greatly on the raid setup.
I suppose it doesn't matter much as long as the bosses are being downed.
On a side note WWS of Archimonde over 1900dps. Melee got 4 air bursts, dodged one and intercepted the other three.
Wind fury accounts for ~6.5% of my total dps on a fight like brutallus.
However, I lose another ~5% from losing unleashed rage and improved totems.
Being in a non optimised leatherworking group would not be fun either.
However, I would suspect that most fury warriors would find it difficult to justify their raid spot without being in the melee dps group. Blood frenzy may be enough to justify a spot in another group but it would depend greatly on the raid setup.
I suppose it doesn't matter much as long as the bosses are being downed.
On a side note WWS of Archimonde over 1900dps. Melee got 4 air bursts, dodged one and intercepted the other three.
Last edited by Cavein : 04/28/08 at 7:59 AM.
Edited onPatch 2.4.1
Is a 2H going to make more use of WF than a DW'er? The more I think about it the less I am convinced.
There are a plethora, yes, of 2h warriors that play w/o using Slam, but I can assume with reason that well beyond the majority have adopted the White~>Slam~>Instant rotation. As such, haste has limited benefits. There is no disputing this.
Flurry: A DW'ing warrior will have on avg 85%-90% of all white attacks hastened by 25%. A 2h MS/BF debuffer will have about the same uptime but with a cap of 15%. Why is this important? WF, obviously, will proc more often for a DW'er than a 2h. There is nothing to be done about this, as the 2h is talent capped by taking BF.
'But a 2h hits harder'. Sure, but let's now bleed this into attack power. If I have 3000 att pwr raid buffed, that is going to be directly applied to my 2h, or directly applied to my MH/OH. If I have 4000 att pwr, the same holds true. Thus, the difference between a 2H and a 1H MH is going to remain constant, but the ratio will dwindle the more gear is involved. As gear is factored in, the DW will 'gain ground' on the 2h in terms of WF usage.
That is for WF, but all shams can give a warrior that crack. As for the added benefits from an Enh Sham:
On the topic of attack power... unleashed rage, without question, is better used with a fury than an arms. It directly stacks with Imp Zerk Stance, and directly influences BT. MS is normalized, whereas Slam is not. There are tradeoffs with a DW performing more HStrikes, but in the end, I'd find it hard for anyone to dispute the fact that UR and IBS multiply each other's benefit, and in turn, directly influence the main rage burnoff for the respective tree (BT) whereas a 2h gains 10% more ap, and the gain is normalized.
Lust? Drums? No question: DW fury. On avg 60-65% of a DW is white dmg or HStrike dmg, compared to an avg of about 50% of an MS/BF. For Slam users: haste is not uniformly beneficial.
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A fury warrior justifies their raid slot by
1. providing BShout to a group
2. personal output.
An arms warrior justifies their raid slot pretty much simply by
1. applying BF and that's it.
Personal output with as little as 6 other physical dps classes allows the arms warrior to slack to 80% of whatever the fury is capable of doing to have the same total RDPS.
I've seen some 2h PvE warriors put out crazy dps, and there are WWS reports of 2h warriors breaking 2.5k dps on Teron, but I've also seen fury break 3k on these same reports.
All things being equal: be it gear, playstyle, grouping, etc. a Fury will make more use of an Enh Sham than an Arms, not only because of the stacking mechanics, but because he has to. Because if he doesn't, he's deadweight and shouldn't be in the raid. The arms needs a melee group to justify his raid slot by merely slapping up BF (simplified). Anything on top of this is just icing on the proverbial cake that is RDPS.
There are a plethora, yes, of 2h warriors that play w/o using Slam, but I can assume with reason that well beyond the majority have adopted the White~>Slam~>Instant rotation. As such, haste has limited benefits. There is no disputing this.
Flurry: A DW'ing warrior will have on avg 85%-90% of all white attacks hastened by 25%. A 2h MS/BF debuffer will have about the same uptime but with a cap of 15%. Why is this important? WF, obviously, will proc more often for a DW'er than a 2h. There is nothing to be done about this, as the 2h is talent capped by taking BF.
'But a 2h hits harder'. Sure, but let's now bleed this into attack power. If I have 3000 att pwr raid buffed, that is going to be directly applied to my 2h, or directly applied to my MH/OH. If I have 4000 att pwr, the same holds true. Thus, the difference between a 2H and a 1H MH is going to remain constant, but the ratio will dwindle the more gear is involved. As gear is factored in, the DW will 'gain ground' on the 2h in terms of WF usage.
That is for WF, but all shams can give a warrior that crack. As for the added benefits from an Enh Sham:
On the topic of attack power... unleashed rage, without question, is better used with a fury than an arms. It directly stacks with Imp Zerk Stance, and directly influences BT. MS is normalized, whereas Slam is not. There are tradeoffs with a DW performing more HStrikes, but in the end, I'd find it hard for anyone to dispute the fact that UR and IBS multiply each other's benefit, and in turn, directly influence the main rage burnoff for the respective tree (BT) whereas a 2h gains 10% more ap, and the gain is normalized.
Lust? Drums? No question: DW fury. On avg 60-65% of a DW is white dmg or HStrike dmg, compared to an avg of about 50% of an MS/BF. For Slam users: haste is not uniformly beneficial.
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A fury warrior justifies their raid slot by
1. providing BShout to a group
2. personal output.
An arms warrior justifies their raid slot pretty much simply by
1. applying BF and that's it.
Personal output with as little as 6 other physical dps classes allows the arms warrior to slack to 80% of whatever the fury is capable of doing to have the same total RDPS.
I've seen some 2h PvE warriors put out crazy dps, and there are WWS reports of 2h warriors breaking 2.5k dps on Teron, but I've also seen fury break 3k on these same reports.
All things being equal: be it gear, playstyle, grouping, etc. a Fury will make more use of an Enh Sham than an Arms, not only because of the stacking mechanics, but because he has to. Because if he doesn't, he's deadweight and shouldn't be in the raid. The arms needs a melee group to justify his raid slot by merely slapping up BF (simplified). Anything on top of this is just icing on the proverbial cake that is RDPS.
Last edited by Mjollnir : 04/28/08 at 7:23 AM.
I don't want to interrupt this discussion, but what about Solarian's Sapphire in Sunwell? Still the best trinket for progress-raids or is e.g. Shard of Contempt better, because it scales with better gear.
Depends. SS is better if you have 5 "high dps" melee in your group. I usually have our feral tank and it provides more dps to use shard. Then on other hand - solarian gives them more threat. Its hard to decide. But in raw dps numbers it seems that
3 pure dpsers (including you) - Shard
4 - either, depends on circumstances
5 -SS
3 pure dpsers (including you) - Shard
4 - either, depends on circumstances
5 -SS
Greetings, I have spent a while reading all these different forums on how to optimise my warriors DPS, 90% of the time i am MT for the guild, but i enjoy 5v5 arena with a few of my guild mates, how ever saddly, I do not get to go DPS very often, but when i do get a break, i like to make the best of it, before i read a few of these warrior posts i was totaly clueless for the most part tbh.
I am currently wearing mostly arena gear, with a few pve items (I find it hard to find arms gear without haste and hit) where as currently my hit is capped, and world breaker, so i reckon my damage output should be quite high, the rotation i am currently using is, Auto,MS,Auto (Thats to start off my dps cycle) then following on from auto, Slam, WW, Auto, Slam, MS, Auto, Slam, etc etc. But i find even with this rotation (Timed correctly) and half decent pve/pvp arms gear, i do not seem to breach over 800dps (When not using windfury) I am not sure if this is natural for arms warriors to do less dps, but more damage, or if simply i should just throw my 2h away and go fury, all tips would be welcome, looking to breach 1k-1.2k dps next time without wf, thanks
I am currently wearing mostly arena gear, with a few pve items (I find it hard to find arms gear without haste and hit) where as currently my hit is capped, and world breaker, so i reckon my damage output should be quite high, the rotation i am currently using is, Auto,MS,Auto (Thats to start off my dps cycle) then following on from auto, Slam, WW, Auto, Slam, MS, Auto, Slam, etc etc. But i find even with this rotation (Timed correctly) and half decent pve/pvp arms gear, i do not seem to breach over 800dps (When not using windfury) I am not sure if this is natural for arms warriors to do less dps, but more damage, or if simply i should just throw my 2h away and go fury, all tips would be welcome, looking to breach 1k-1.2k dps next time without wf, thanks
Hmm, I really doubt you'll breach 1k dps even as DW fury unless you have optimum buffs. Without WF, unleashed rage, LoTP I think 900-1k is quite normal for a SSC/TK geared DW warrior. As arms hybrid you'll do less personal dps than that, not breaching 800 seems more or less normal to me.
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Originally Posted by Simprider
Yes the procs stack indeed. Here is WWS from quick test.
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http://anipop.org/double_dragonstrike_2proc.jpg
You'll see two haste buffs from the maces up simultaneously.
I'm fearful they'll change it and make them share an internal CD.
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Originally Posted by Wafzig
And here's a screenshot of a Shaman dual wielding them on the PTR.
http://anipop.org/double_dragonstrike_2proc.jpg You'll see two haste buffs from the maces up simultaneously. I'm fearful they'll change it and make them share an internal CD. |
Though I guess a simultaneous proc would be like having Warglaives, just with maces
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Originally Posted by Giantlol
I'm tempted to make a second one, but it just doesnt seem worth the overall cost unless you absolutely can't get another 1her D=
Though I guess a simultaneous proc would be like having Warglaives, just with maces |
You can do some quick math and figure out what the "average" haste value of the weapon is based on that and see if it is worth it compared to what you are currently using.
Just do something like your flurry uptime % *.25 for your built in haste, then the mainhand dstrike haste (like 24% i forgot), and whatever other things you have. Then figure out how many swings per minute you get, dont forget to add in like 6 more from whirlwind. Then multiply it by the % chance of the weapon proc thats the total uptime, then just multiply it by the haste rating and you have the average haste per minute.
I am currently having a difficult time with my DPS and am consistently sitting around 1500dps on Brut despite the fact that I think I can/should be higher - and this is unfortunately the trend I’m experiencing on all our bosses at the moment.
I was hoping I could get some assistance as to what I am doing incorrectly. I’ve done a lot of reading but I am obviously missing something.
My Armory - The World of Warcraft Armory
WWS of our Brut kill - Bluefang - WWS
My current Hit rotation consists of BT and WW on every CD with HS over 50rage.
I usually am in a group with two other rogues, a hunter and an enhancement Shaman - no feral druid.
On fights like Brut I’m chugging Haste pots on CD, and have 2-3 drums of battle in my group.
The weapons Im currently using are Dragonstrike (executioner) and Mountaing Vengance (mongoose) however I also have Risingtide (executioner) as well for another option.
I’m sitting around 210 hit rating with Leggings of Endless Rage, and around 180 with Leggings of Devine Retribution and approx 33-34% crit.
So based on that is there anything you see wrong, perhaps with my gear choices?
The other thing I noticed from looking at other guilds WWS's is that despite me having more +hit rating, I do seem to be missing more and a lot of it is on my yellow attacks like execute and BT. When compared to say some warriors that have much less hit (say in the range of 5% less), yet they aren’t missing so much according to WWS's I’ve looked at. I do find this quite puzzling.
The only other piece of info I can think of is that I’m in Australia and constantly raid with latency of around 200-300. Could this play any factor?
Any advice would be most appreciated, thank you.
(side point, Dreadmaul the new Oceanic server is not on the realm selection list, hence why it is not listed in my profile)
I was hoping I could get some assistance as to what I am doing incorrectly. I’ve done a lot of reading but I am obviously missing something.
My Armory - The World of Warcraft Armory
WWS of our Brut kill - Bluefang - WWS
My current Hit rotation consists of BT and WW on every CD with HS over 50rage.
I usually am in a group with two other rogues, a hunter and an enhancement Shaman - no feral druid.
On fights like Brut I’m chugging Haste pots on CD, and have 2-3 drums of battle in my group.
The weapons Im currently using are Dragonstrike (executioner) and Mountaing Vengance (mongoose) however I also have Risingtide (executioner) as well for another option.
I’m sitting around 210 hit rating with Leggings of Endless Rage, and around 180 with Leggings of Devine Retribution and approx 33-34% crit.
So based on that is there anything you see wrong, perhaps with my gear choices?
The other thing I noticed from looking at other guilds WWS's is that despite me having more +hit rating, I do seem to be missing more and a lot of it is on my yellow attacks like execute and BT. When compared to say some warriors that have much less hit (say in the range of 5% less), yet they aren’t missing so much according to WWS's I’ve looked at. I do find this quite puzzling.
The only other piece of info I can think of is that I’m in Australia and constantly raid with latency of around 200-300. Could this play any factor?
Any advice would be most appreciated, thank you.
(side point, Dreadmaul the new Oceanic server is not on the realm selection list, hence why it is not listed in my profile)
| The other thing I noticed from looking at other guilds WWS's is that despite me having more +hit rating, I do seem to be missing more and a lot of it is on my yellow attacks like execute and BT. When compared to say some warriors that have much less hit (say in the range of 5% less), yet they aren’t missing so much according to WWS's I’ve looked at. I do find this quite puzzling. |
Edit: Click on the expand all rows-button on your Dmg Out-tab on the WWS report and you'll see proof of this with actual parry percentages.
Not only will getting parried that much hurt your personal DPS, but leads to your tank taking alot of excess damage. On Brut, that can be a major issue!
Gearing choices look decent, only thing I would point out is ArP, either stack it, or dont, It's only super valuable in large quanitites and has exponential returns the higher you stack it. That being said, brut has pertty high AC, might wanna use straigh AP/CRIT gear for him.
Gearing choices look decent, only thing I would point out is ArP, either stack it, or dont, It's only super valuable in large quanitites and has exponential returns the higher you stack it. That being said, brut has pertty high AC, might wanna use straigh AP/CRIT gear for him.
Brut's parry mechanic has actually been disabled seeing as he hits hard enough to slaughter tanks without parry-haste.
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Originally Posted by Gruntle
Hmm, I really doubt you'll breach 1k dps even as DW fury unless you have optimum buffs. Without WF, unleashed rage, LoTP I think 900-1k is quite normal for a SSC/TK geared DW warrior. As arms hybrid you'll do less personal dps than that, not breaching 800 seems more or less normal to me.
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Originally Posted by Kauvian
Honestly, it all boils down to what the proc percentage is.
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On a back of a napkin calculation, 212 haste drops Dragonstrikes to 2.38 speed and turns them into 110.7 DPS weapons for the duration of said haste. If nearly 100% uptime is achievable, and it looks like it is at least in a melee raid DPS situation, well, there you go. Even with 2/3's uptime for a solo warrior makes them 106.3 DPS weapons.
At the very least, they are comporable to S3/Parrot Fists, ignoring everything else including the 424 haste double proc Warglaive imitator.
I would be extremely cautious about assembling mats or dropping professions on a live server unlesss the costs are just arbitrary to you. This reeks of unintended, with the strength of the weapon choice coming almost entirely from the proc mechanics of something that was never designed to be used in a matching set.
Ok, brutalis wasnt a good example cause we are always moving from side to side restricted by other players etc. But just talking about straight misses i usually use Leggings of endless rage for the +hit and was in the teron fight Wow Web Stats
I have been a fury warrior since pretty much week one of WoW so i am pretty good at staying behind a mob, that been said Teron doesnt move and is perfect for straight up dps.
Witzbold - WWS has 20 more +hit then i do with LoER and yet only misses 8%, where i am missing 17% and this is common in all my other WWS reports, any ideas or should i just pray i had some bug and moving server fixed it?
I have been a fury warrior since pretty much week one of WoW so i am pretty good at staying behind a mob, that been said Teron doesnt move and is perfect for straight up dps.
Witzbold - WWS has 20 more +hit then i do with LoER and yet only misses 8%, where i am missing 17% and this is common in all my other WWS reports, any ideas or should i just pray i had some bug and moving server fixed it?
From what i see from both WWS you link above other than misses i think the number of Bloodthirst crit between you 2 is quite differ.
Witzbold crit 12 out 14 BT which also a difference, where you got 8 bloodthirst crit out of 16, other than than his heroic strike also hit much harder, with warglaives.
Consider your previous post about latency, i also play from oceanic area with averagin 500 is ms, i dont think it make huge different. Also if you watch the Fury warr dps video (epsilon 2k dps in Brutallus) it shows around 400ish ms and he still doing huge amount of DPS.
Witzbold crit 12 out 14 BT which also a difference, where you got 8 bloodthirst crit out of 16, other than than his heroic strike also hit much harder, with warglaives.
Consider your previous post about latency, i also play from oceanic area with averagin 500 is ms, i dont think it make huge different. Also if you watch the Fury warr dps video (epsilon 2k dps in Brutallus) it shows around 400ish ms and he still doing huge amount of DPS.
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Originally Posted by milanista11
Consider your previous post about latency, i also play from oceanic area with averagin 500 is ms, i dont think it make huge different. Also if you watch the Fury warr dps video (epsilon 2k dps in Brutallus) it shows around 400ish ms and he still doing huge amount of DPS.
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Edited onPatch 2.4.1
Yeah, i know he would beat me by abit just cause Warglaives are a massive dps upgrade by themselves, but he shouldnt be beating me by quite that much, i am just using him cause he was the first fury warrior i found on WWS. I was using that WWS as a example to show how much i miss compared to the avg warrior on WWS, Brut wasnt a good example cause of parrys so i used Teron where there is no movement and almost impossible to place your self in the wrong spot to do dmg.
Last edited by Bluefang : 04/30/08 at 1:16 AM.
|
Originally Posted by Bluefang
Yeah, i know he would beat me by abit just cause Warglaives are a massive dps upgrade by themselves, but he shouldnt be beating me by quite that much, i am just using him cause he was the first fury warrior i found on WWS. I was using that WWS as a example to show how much i miss compared to the avg warrior on WWS, Brut wasnt a good example cause of parrys so i used Teron where there is no movement and almost impossible to place your self in the wrong spot to do dmg.
|
There are many problems with comparing output dps like you did with Witzbold, he has 8% misses on his white swings, I'm pretty sure he must be using gear with a lot more hit than you (or , he was just very lucky in that fight). Also the gain in having Warglaives should not be underestimated, haste is an extremely valuable stat at that gear levels since you're basically hasting your heroic strikes.
Edited onPatch 2.4.1
Miss Rate and weapon speed
Hey Bluefang, I think that you are getting extra swings with your offhand and that is why you have the misses that you do. You have a MH 2.7 speed and an OH 2.6 speed. More OH swings = more misses.
I don't think it is your hit, but rather the faster OH.
--Euber
Edit: With both Warglaives he will get 2 MH to 1 OH, the beauty of the 2.8 speed and the 1.4 speeds of the weapons. Can you link his armory?
I don't think it is your hit, but rather the faster OH.
--Euber
Edit: With both Warglaives he will get 2 MH to 1 OH, the beauty of the 2.8 speed and the 1.4 speeds of the weapons. Can you link his armory?
Last edited by Euber : 05/01/08 at 8:24 AM.
|
Originally Posted by Euber
Hey Bluefang, I think that you are getting extra swings with your offhand and that is why you have the misses that you do. You have a MH 2.7 speed and an OH 2.6 speed. More OH swings = more misses.
I don't think it is your hit, but rather the faster OH. --Euber Edit: With both Warglaives he will get 2 MH to 1 OH, the beauty of the 2.8 speed and the 1.4 speeds of the weapons. Can you link his armory? |
Edited onPatch 2.4.1
|
Originally Posted by Gruntle
What? Not sure I understand what you are saying here. You're implying that he has a higher miss rate because his OH is faster? That is wrong in so many ways, I think you should perhaps check up on some basics of hits and misses. The extra miss chance from DW (19%) applies to both weapons.
|
I wanted to see the Armory of the other guy to really compare the hit values, so that could be eliminated as the real reason.
--Euber
Edit: I was looking at the log, so that I could try to explain my point more fully. If you look at the log a remarkable number of misses directly follow a HS.
Last edited by Euber : 05/01/08 at 2:39 PM.
|
Originally Posted by Euber
If you look at the log a remarkable number of misses directly follow a HS.
|
|
Originally Posted by Apate
This isn't too surprising if you HS a decent amount. With capped special, a moderate miss rate, and moderate-to-heavy HS usage, it seems quite likely for HS->miss to occur.
|
I am just trying to help Bluefang solve the problem of his very strange miss rate. If he is right that his miss rate is out of whack and he wasn't losing hit, I was trying to suggest a reason. I do realize that I am suggesting something a little crazy, that HS coupled with a .1 faster OH can lead to unexpected regular hit misses with the OH.
Personally, I think he is swapping his Drape out for the Shadow Resist cloak or something to explain the hit loss. He *did* say that this happens in his WWS all the time. This is the first intriguing miss-rate oddity that I have seen in forever, but I admit that I think we are simply missing information.
Really, Bluefang is in a position to use two 2.6 weapons and end my grasping at straws.
--Euber
To answer the question about the slower OH "maybe" producing more misses its not the case. I used to MH Rising Tide which is a 2.6 speed weapon so both weapons were at the same speed, I only recently made the T3 hammer due to it been suggested it might help with my overall dps.
So for the last month or so i have been running with 2 weapons the exact same speed and i have still had a higher miss rate then comparable warriors that i have found on WWS. Tho i haven't had a problem with my misses since i moved server, but then i haven't been in any easily comparable fights like teron/Brut since my guild moved over.
So for the last month or so i have been running with 2 weapons the exact same speed and i have still had a higher miss rate then comparable warriors that i have found on WWS. Tho i haven't had a problem with my misses since i moved server, but then i haven't been in any easily comparable fights like teron/Brut since my guild moved over.
There is nothing strange about Bluefang's miss rate on white attacks. It's perfectly normal.
And for that matter, it doesn't matter if you miss 10 out of a 100 swings with a slow weapon or 20 out of 200 with a fast weapon, the miss rate is still 10%. The miss rate for white attacks doesn't go up just because you're using HS more.
And for that matter, it doesn't matter if you miss 10 out of a 100 swings with a slow weapon or 20 out of 200 with a fast weapon, the miss rate is still 10%. The miss rate for white attacks doesn't go up just because you're using HS more.
primarly sorry for english
I want to ask if there is some difference in geming equip with +10crit rating or with +5crit +5str ? Because spreadsheet is showing almost no difference. Or is there any minimal critical I should aim ?
And what I should prefer for my hands (pve arms) .. Onslaught or Grips of Silent Justice ? And which gems in them ? Same spreadsheet problem
.
Thanks for replies
I want to ask if there is some difference in geming equip with +10crit rating or with +5crit +5str ? Because spreadsheet is showing almost no difference. Or is there any minimal critical I should aim ?
And what I should prefer for my hands (pve arms) .. Onslaught or Grips of Silent Justice ? And which gems in them ? Same spreadsheet problem
. Thanks for replies
I think it's very interesting, all this about fast or slow ohand. Im a big fan of fast for the rage generation, so i can spam heroics. A slow make me rage starved, and i would need more hit also, to make up for the less heroic spam. The extra damage i could get from a slow and even with same speed, so i would get the bugged flurry 4 swings, doesnt make up for it at all. Thats just my 2 cent. Here's some wws logs to look at. :P
Brutallus 2559 dps
Gorefiend 2801 dps
Brutallus 2559 dps
Gorefiend 2801 dps
To Nyia
I would go for the +5crit +5str, but it really comes down to your current stats. You need to make the decision yourself somehow, or atleast learn to. Look on armory and wws to see how the pro's do
I would go for the +5crit +5str, but it really comes down to your current stats. You need to make the decision yourself somehow, or atleast learn to. Look on armory and wws to see how the pro's do
|
Originally Posted by perkynose
I think it's very interesting, all this about fast or slow ohand. Im a big fan of fast for the rage generation, so i can spam heroics. A slow make me rage starved, and i would need more hit also, to make up for the less heroic spam. The extra damage i could get from a slow and even with same speed, so i would get the bugged flurry 4 swings, doesnt make up for it at all. Thats just my 2 cent. Here's some wws logs to look at. :P
Brutallus 2559 dps Gorefiend 2801 dps |
|
Originally Posted by Bluefang
Atm i am using the 108dps claw from SW trash, would u still think a fast 100dps weapon would beat it?
|
I also look forward to see some testing with the dual dragonstrike combo.
Really nice dps there consider you not have Warglaives ( really wish to know what kind of dps you get with Warglaives ).
My question your BT maximum crit damage is like 5.5k i wander what factor make that crit so huge like that. Cause i do have what it call as AP set (havin like 2.2k something AP) and try it on RoS phase 1 (a 0 armor boss) still my maximum crit only like 4k ish.
).My question your BT maximum crit damage is like 5.5k i wander what factor make that crit so huge like that. Cause i do have what it call as AP set (havin like 2.2k something AP) and try it on RoS phase 1 (a 0 armor boss) still my maximum crit only like 4k ish.
|
Originally Posted by perkynose
I also look forward to see some testing with the dual dragonstrike combo.
|
|
Originally Posted by Mjollnir
Post 3501 of this very same page.
|
For some more accurate testing I'd take a look at landsoul's spreadsheet which now have a working dual DS model. From what people are saying in the spreadsheet thread dual DS is not competitive at BT level. Everything from BT and up will beat them (including Vanir's fists and S3 weapons).
To Perkynose: Really impressive dps you have, really nice to see that slow-fast is working so good at high gear levels. How do you prioritize rage? Do you focus on getting HS one every white swing, even before using BT? How about WW? You have something like 40% damage coming from HS alone, which is extreme indeed. I think your logs prove that we need to look a bit more on theorycrafting alternative dps cycles in the spreadsheets.
|
Originally Posted by Gruntle
For some more accurate testing I'd take a look at landsoul's spreadsheet which now have a working dual DS model. From what people are saying in the spreadsheet thread dual DS is not competitive at BT level. Everything from BT and up will beat them (including Vanir's fists and S3 weapons).
|
i got a small and simple question...
do i do the dps i can with my current gear?
we are a 3/5 sunwell progressed guild, here's our latest wws of brutallus:
Wow Web Stats
i am 33/28 specced and here's my armory:
The World of Warcraft Armory
basically i'm asking, because i've heard of ms specced warriors doing up to 1.8 - 1.9k dps and compared to that, mine seems a tad low, most of the time, if my ping works out well i hover at 1.5 -1.6k dps :/
our usual setup for the melee group is 2 rogues, 1 warrior, 1 melee shaman and 1 ret paladin, so the support i get is pretty nice.
do i do the dps i can with my current gear?
we are a 3/5 sunwell progressed guild, here's our latest wws of brutallus:
Wow Web Stats
i am 33/28 specced and here's my armory:
The World of Warcraft Armory
basically i'm asking, because i've heard of ms specced warriors doing up to 1.8 - 1.9k dps and compared to that, mine seems a tad low, most of the time, if my ping works out well i hover at 1.5 -1.6k dps :/
our usual setup for the melee group is 2 rogues, 1 warrior, 1 melee shaman and 1 ret paladin, so the support i get is pretty nice.
|
Originally Posted by Gruktharr
i got a small and simple question...
do i do the dps i can with my current gear? we are a 3/5 sunwell progressed guild, here's our latest wws of brutallus: Wow Web Stats i am 33/28 specced and here's my armory: The World of Warcraft Armory basically i'm asking, because i've heard of ms specced warriors doing up to 1.8 - 1.9k dps and compared to that, mine seems a tad low, most of the time, if my ping works out well i hover at 1.5 -1.6k dps :/ our usual setup for the melee group is 2 rogues, 1 warrior, 1 melee shaman and 1 ret paladin, so the support i get is pretty nice. |
|
Originally Posted by rhoxx
you need cats edge
|
~300 dps just by switching the weapon?
|
Originally Posted by Kauvian
Honestly, it all boils down to what the proc percentage is.
|
On a back of a napkin calculation, 212 haste drops Dragonstrikes to 2.38 speed and turns them into 110.7 DPS weapons for the duration of said haste. If nearly 100% uptime is achievable, and it looks like it is at least in a melee raid DPS situation, well, there you go. Even with 2/3's uptime for a solo warrior makes them 106.3 DPS weapons.
At the very least, they are comporable to S3/Parrot Fists, ignoring everything else including the 424 haste double proc Warglaive imitator.
I would be extremely cautious about assembling mats or dropping professions on a live server unlesss the costs are just arbitrary to you. This reeks of unintended, with the strength of the weapon choice coming almost entirely from the proc mechanics of something that was never designed to be used in a matching set.
Ok, brutalis wasnt a good example cause we are always moving from side to side restricted by other players etc. But just talking about straight misses i usually use Leggings of endless rage for the +hit and was in the teron fight Wow Web Stats
I have been a fury warrior since pretty much week one of WoW so i am pretty good at staying behind a mob, that been said Teron doesnt move and is perfect for straight up dps.
Witzbold - WWS has 20 more +hit then i do with LoER and yet only misses 8%, where i am missing 17% and this is common in all my other WWS reports, any ideas or should i just pray i had some bug and moving server fixed it?
I have been a fury warrior since pretty much week one of WoW so i am pretty good at staying behind a mob, that been said Teron doesnt move and is perfect for straight up dps.
Witzbold - WWS has 20 more +hit then i do with LoER and yet only misses 8%, where i am missing 17% and this is common in all my other WWS reports, any ideas or should i just pray i had some bug and moving server fixed it?
From what i see from both WWS you link above other than misses i think the number of Bloodthirst crit between you 2 is quite differ.
Witzbold crit 12 out 14 BT which also a difference, where you got 8 bloodthirst crit out of 16, other than than his heroic strike also hit much harder, with warglaives.
Consider your previous post about latency, i also play from oceanic area with averagin 500 is ms, i dont think it make huge different. Also if you watch the Fury warr dps video (epsilon 2k dps in Brutallus) it shows around 400ish ms and he still doing huge amount of DPS.
Witzbold crit 12 out 14 BT which also a difference, where you got 8 bloodthirst crit out of 16, other than than his heroic strike also hit much harder, with warglaives.
Consider your previous post about latency, i also play from oceanic area with averagin 500 is ms, i dont think it make huge different. Also if you watch the Fury warr dps video (epsilon 2k dps in Brutallus) it shows around 400ish ms and he still doing huge amount of DPS.
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Originally Posted by milanista11
Consider your previous post about latency, i also play from oceanic area with averagin 500 is ms, i dont think it make huge different. Also if you watch the Fury warr dps video (epsilon 2k dps in Brutallus) it shows around 400ish ms and he still doing huge amount of DPS.
|
Edited onPatch 2.4.1
Yeah, i know he would beat me by abit just cause Warglaives are a massive dps upgrade by themselves, but he shouldnt be beating me by quite that much, i am just using him cause he was the first fury warrior i found on WWS. I was using that WWS as a example to show how much i miss compared to the avg warrior on WWS, Brut wasnt a good example cause of parrys so i used Teron where there is no movement and almost impossible to place your self in the wrong spot to do dmg.
Last edited by Bluefang : 04/30/08 at 1:16 AM.
|
Originally Posted by Bluefang
Yeah, i know he would beat me by abit just cause Warglaives are a massive dps upgrade by themselves, but he shouldnt be beating me by quite that much, i am just using him cause he was the first fury warrior i found on WWS. I was using that WWS as a example to show how much i miss compared to the avg warrior on WWS, Brut wasnt a good example cause of parrys so i used Teron where there is no movement and almost impossible to place your self in the wrong spot to do dmg.
|
There are many problems with comparing output dps like you did with Witzbold, he has 8% misses on his white swings, I'm pretty sure he must be using gear with a lot more hit than you (or , he was just very lucky in that fight). Also the gain in having Warglaives should not be underestimated, haste is an extremely valuable stat at that gear levels since you're basically hasting your heroic strikes.
Edited onPatch 2.4.1
Miss Rate and weapon speed
Hey Bluefang, I think that you are getting extra swings with your offhand and that is why you have the misses that you do. You have a MH 2.7 speed and an OH 2.6 speed. More OH swings = more misses.
I don't think it is your hit, but rather the faster OH.
--Euber
Edit: With both Warglaives he will get 2 MH to 1 OH, the beauty of the 2.8 speed and the 1.4 speeds of the weapons. Can you link his armory?
I don't think it is your hit, but rather the faster OH.
--Euber
Edit: With both Warglaives he will get 2 MH to 1 OH, the beauty of the 2.8 speed and the 1.4 speeds of the weapons. Can you link his armory?
Last edited by Euber : 05/01/08 at 8:24 AM.
|
Originally Posted by Euber
Hey Bluefang, I think that you are getting extra swings with your offhand and that is why you have the misses that you do. You have a MH 2.7 speed and an OH 2.6 speed. More OH swings = more misses.
I don't think it is your hit, but rather the faster OH. --Euber Edit: With both Warglaives he will get 2 MH to 1 OH, the beauty of the 2.8 speed and the 1.4 speeds of the weapons. Can you link his armory? |
Edited onPatch 2.4.1
|
Originally Posted by Gruntle
What? Not sure I understand what you are saying here. You're implying that he has a higher miss rate because his OH is faster? That is wrong in so many ways, I think you should perhaps check up on some basics of hits and misses. The extra miss chance from DW (19%) applies to both weapons.
|
I wanted to see the Armory of the other guy to really compare the hit values, so that could be eliminated as the real reason.
--Euber
Edit: I was looking at the log, so that I could try to explain my point more fully. If you look at the log a remarkable number of misses directly follow a HS.
Last edited by Euber : 05/01/08 at 2:39 PM.
|
Originally Posted by Euber
If you look at the log a remarkable number of misses directly follow a HS.
|
|
Originally Posted by Apate
This isn't too surprising if you HS a decent amount. With capped special, a moderate miss rate, and moderate-to-heavy HS usage, it seems quite likely for HS->miss to occur.
|
I am just trying to help Bluefang solve the problem of his very strange miss rate. If he is right that his miss rate is out of whack and he wasn't losing hit, I was trying to suggest a reason. I do realize that I am suggesting something a little crazy, that HS coupled with a .1 faster OH can lead to unexpected regular hit misses with the OH.
Personally, I think he is swapping his Drape out for the Shadow Resist cloak or something to explain the hit loss. He *did* say that this happens in his WWS all the time. This is the first intriguing miss-rate oddity that I have seen in forever, but I admit that I think we are simply missing information.
Really, Bluefang is in a position to use two 2.6 weapons and end my grasping at straws.
--Euber
To answer the question about the slower OH "maybe" producing more misses its not the case. I used to MH Rising Tide which is a 2.6 speed weapon so both weapons were at the same speed, I only recently made the T3 hammer due to it been suggested it might help with my overall dps.
So for the last month or so i have been running with 2 weapons the exact same speed and i have still had a higher miss rate then comparable warriors that i have found on WWS. Tho i haven't had a problem with my misses since i moved server, but then i haven't been in any easily comparable fights like teron/Brut since my guild moved over.
So for the last month or so i have been running with 2 weapons the exact same speed and i have still had a higher miss rate then comparable warriors that i have found on WWS. Tho i haven't had a problem with my misses since i moved server, but then i haven't been in any easily comparable fights like teron/Brut since my guild moved over.
There is nothing strange about Bluefang's miss rate on white attacks. It's perfectly normal.
And for that matter, it doesn't matter if you miss 10 out of a 100 swings with a slow weapon or 20 out of 200 with a fast weapon, the miss rate is still 10%. The miss rate for white attacks doesn't go up just because you're using HS more.
And for that matter, it doesn't matter if you miss 10 out of a 100 swings with a slow weapon or 20 out of 200 with a fast weapon, the miss rate is still 10%. The miss rate for white attacks doesn't go up just because you're using HS more.
primarly sorry for english
I want to ask if there is some difference in geming equip with +10crit rating or with +5crit +5str ? Because spreadsheet is showing almost no difference. Or is there any minimal critical I should aim ?
And what I should prefer for my hands (pve arms) .. Onslaught or Grips of Silent Justice ? And which gems in them ? Same spreadsheet problem.
Thanks for replies
I want to ask if there is some difference in geming equip with +10crit rating or with +5crit +5str ? Because spreadsheet is showing almost no difference. Or is there any minimal critical I should aim ?
And what I should prefer for my hands (pve arms) .. Onslaught or Grips of Silent Justice ? And which gems in them ? Same spreadsheet problem
. Thanks for replies
I think it's very interesting, all this about fast or slow ohand. Im a big fan of fast for the rage generation, so i can spam heroics. A slow make me rage starved, and i would need more hit also, to make up for the less heroic spam. The extra damage i could get from a slow and even with same speed, so i would get the bugged flurry 4 swings, doesnt make up for it at all. Thats just my 2 cent. Here's some wws logs to look at. :P
Brutallus 2559 dps
Gorefiend 2801 dps
Brutallus 2559 dps
Gorefiend 2801 dps
To Nyia
I would go for the +5crit +5str, but it really comes down to your current stats. You need to make the decision yourself somehow, or atleast learn to. Look on armory and wws to see how the pro's do
I would go for the +5crit +5str, but it really comes down to your current stats. You need to make the decision yourself somehow, or atleast learn to. Look on armory and wws to see how the pro's do
|
Originally Posted by perkynose
I think it's very interesting, all this about fast or slow ohand. Im a big fan of fast for the rage generation, so i can spam heroics. A slow make me rage starved, and i would need more hit also, to make up for the less heroic spam. The extra damage i could get from a slow and even with same speed, so i would get the bugged flurry 4 swings, doesnt make up for it at all. Thats just my 2 cent. Here's some wws logs to look at. :P
Brutallus 2559 dps Gorefiend 2801 dps |
|
Originally Posted by Bluefang
Atm i am using the 108dps claw from SW trash, would u still think a fast 100dps weapon would beat it?
|
I also look forward to see some testing with the dual dragonstrike combo.
Really nice dps there consider you not have Warglaives ( really wish to know what kind of dps you get with Warglaives ).
My question your BT maximum crit damage is like 5.5k i wander what factor make that crit so huge like that. Cause i do have what it call as AP set (havin like 2.2k something AP) and try it on RoS phase 1 (a 0 armor boss) still my maximum crit only like 4k ish.
).My question your BT maximum crit damage is like 5.5k i wander what factor make that crit so huge like that. Cause i do have what it call as AP set (havin like 2.2k something AP) and try it on RoS phase 1 (a 0 armor boss) still my maximum crit only like 4k ish.
|
Originally Posted by perkynose
I also look forward to see some testing with the dual dragonstrike combo.
|
|
Originally Posted by Mjollnir
Post 3501 of this very same page.
|
For some more accurate testing I'd take a look at landsoul's spreadsheet which now have a working dual DS model. From what people are saying in the spreadsheet thread dual DS is not competitive at BT level. Everything from BT and up will beat them (including Vanir's fists and S3 weapons).
To Perkynose: Really impressive dps you have, really nice to see that slow-fast is working so good at high gear levels. How do you prioritize rage? Do you focus on getting HS one every white swing, even before using BT? How about WW? You have something like 40% damage coming from HS alone, which is extreme indeed. I think your logs prove that we need to look a bit more on theorycrafting alternative dps cycles in the spreadsheets.
|
Originally Posted by Gruntle
For some more accurate testing I'd take a look at landsoul's spreadsheet which now have a working dual DS model. From what people are saying in the spreadsheet thread dual DS is not competitive at BT level. Everything from BT and up will beat them (including Vanir's fists and S3 weapons).
|
i got a small and simple question...
do i do the dps i can with my current gear?
we are a 3/5 sunwell progressed guild, here's our latest wws of brutallus:
Wow Web Stats
i am 33/28 specced and here's my armory:
The World of Warcraft Armory
basically i'm asking, because i've heard of ms specced warriors doing up to 1.8 - 1.9k dps and compared to that, mine seems a tad low, most of the time, if my ping works out well i hover at 1.5 -1.6k dps :/
our usual setup for the melee group is 2 rogues, 1 warrior, 1 melee shaman and 1 ret paladin, so the support i get is pretty nice.
do i do the dps i can with my current gear?
we are a 3/5 sunwell progressed guild, here's our latest wws of brutallus:
Wow Web Stats
i am 33/28 specced and here's my armory:
The World of Warcraft Armory
basically i'm asking, because i've heard of ms specced warriors doing up to 1.8 - 1.9k dps and compared to that, mine seems a tad low, most of the time, if my ping works out well i hover at 1.5 -1.6k dps :/
our usual setup for the melee group is 2 rogues, 1 warrior, 1 melee shaman and 1 ret paladin, so the support i get is pretty nice.
|
Originally Posted by Gruktharr
i got a small and simple question...
do i do the dps i can with my current gear? we are a 3/5 sunwell progressed guild, here's our latest wws of brutallus: Wow Web Stats i am 33/28 specced and here's my armory: The World of Warcraft Armory basically i'm asking, because i've heard of ms specced warriors doing up to 1.8 - 1.9k dps and compared to that, mine seems a tad low, most of the time, if my ping works out well i hover at 1.5 -1.6k dps :/ our usual setup for the melee group is 2 rogues, 1 warrior, 1 melee shaman and 1 ret paladin, so the support i get is pretty nice. |
|
Originally Posted by rhoxx
you need cats edge
|
~300 dps just by switching the weapon?
|
Originally Posted by perkynose
I think it's very interesting, all this about fast or slow ohand. Im a big fan of fast for the rage generation, so i can spam heroics. A slow make me rage starved, and i would need more hit also, to make up for the less heroic spam. The extra damage i could get from a slow and even with same speed, so i would get the bugged flurry 4 swings, doesnt make up for it at all. Thats just my 2 cent. Here's some wws logs to look at. :P
Brutallus 2559 dps Gorefiend 2801 dps |
That is a very impressive dps. How many heroisms did you get? I can't tell from wws anymore, because shard of contempts proc has the same name. Also what kinda party were you in? I've never seen warrior so high on brutallus and that include warglaive ones..
Edited onPatch 2.4.1
Hello
To SSLanfear:
I had 2 heroisms for the first time in my life and it was great
, at Gorefiend i only had 1 though. Btw i actually have made more on Gorefiend. WWS
My party was:
Brut: retri-pala, rogue, enh shaman, and BM hunter.
Teron: feral, rogue, BM hunter, enh shaman
To milanista11:
Without checking your gear, my guess is ArP.
To Gruntle:
I think i use pretty standard rotation. BT and WW everytime its up. keeping shouts(battle + demo), rampage up inbtween, and rest is heroic-spam. its all about when to take a break really. I think its nice to have used the same weapon combo for so long, so i get to know the rhythm in em, eventhough i wish for new weapons ofc (read Glaives), but our rogue is first in line, and we havent had one single drop yet. Talk about luck
I must say though that im rather sloppy with my rotation. I dont keep it 100%. So i guess i sometimes prioritize a heroic for a WW, and i also refresh rampage must sooner than i should, that includes shouts too.
Perky
To SSLanfear:
I had 2 heroisms for the first time in my life and it was great
, at Gorefiend i only had 1 though. Btw i actually have made more on Gorefiend. WWSMy party was:
Brut: retri-pala, rogue, enh shaman, and BM hunter.
Teron: feral, rogue, BM hunter, enh shaman
To milanista11:
Without checking your gear, my guess is ArP.
To Gruntle:
I think i use pretty standard rotation. BT and WW everytime its up. keeping shouts(battle + demo), rampage up inbtween, and rest is heroic-spam. its all about when to take a break really. I think its nice to have used the same weapon combo for so long, so i get to know the rhythm in em, eventhough i wish for new weapons ofc (read Glaives), but our rogue is first in line, and we havent had one single drop yet. Talk about luck
I must say though that im rather sloppy with my rotation. I dont keep it 100%. So i guess i sometimes prioritize a heroic for a WW, and i also refresh rampage must sooner than i should, that includes shouts too. Perky
Last edited by perkynose : 05/03/08 at 12:11 PM.
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Originally Posted by perkynose
...
|
(Also, avoid signing posts around here).
|
Originally Posted by Mjollnir
Out of curiosity, you don't spamstring at all?
(Also, avoid signing posts around here). |
Also if a WF proc then it eats rage fast with heroic-spam. Id rather use that.
(I'll stop signing from now on)
That's some freak dps, kudos. I see you have a boomkin, so that's 3% extra hit over what most dps warriors have, since it's not very common to find one. Also a couple of other reasons may be your gear level(I can't access europe armory for some reason, but I've seen select players with 5+ sunwell items) and the use of a fast offhand, which I will definitely test next time I raid. My best was just over 2100 dps as fury(using Solarian's so that is a big lower dps) over here: Wow Web Stats .
You had an almost equal percentage of damage from white and heroic strike, so a quick offhand for smooth rage generation at high dps levels seems to be better, at least judging from your numbers.
You had an almost equal percentage of damage from white and heroic strike, so a quick offhand for smooth rage generation at high dps levels seems to be better, at least judging from your numbers.
How much percent Heroic Strike usage has nothing to do with slow or fast offhand, rather you have the skill to play with the weapon setup (slow/slow in particular, most would say its harder to play than slow/fast), and the right support to have enough rage to spam heroic strike almost all the time.
However, the more hit you have with a slow/slow setup, so its easier to play slow/slow ... I have upgraded to 186 hit, and I can say, its very smooth to play now (although wasn't before).
However, the more hit you have with a slow/slow setup, so its easier to play slow/slow ... I have upgraded to 186 hit, and I can say, its very smooth to play now (although wasn't before).
|
Originally Posted by Kaan
How much percent Heroic Strike usage has nothing to do with slow or fast offhand, rather you have the skill to play with the weapon setup (slow/slow in particular, most would say its harder to play than slow/fast), and the right support to have enough rage to spam heroic strike almost all the time.
However, the more hit you have with a slow/slow setup, so its easier to play slow/slow ... I have upgraded to 186 hit, and I can say, its very smooth to play now (although wasn't before). |
Edited onPatch 2.4.1
I know for the appearing advances of a fast offhand, I played myself the longest time with a fast offhand and needed a long time to be used to a slow offhand.
However. You can't even "exactly predict" how much rage you will have with a fast offhand, too. You can say its easier to play with a fast offhand, what you can't say is, that you can't play the same playstyle with a slow/slow setup or have the same DPS, or even more, which I try to say, is possible. I have rarely any problems with rage to miss a BT/WW, and only problems with excess rage, when there is extensive damage incoming (both of what you even can't prevent with a fast offhand). On top of that I'm never using hamstring, and rampage is so rarely falling off, that its not worth to speak about. It's a simple fact, that a human being can get used to everything, this includes different playstyles with different weapons without any noticeable disadvantage or loss of DPS.
(wrong weapon equipped in armory, I normally wear dragonstrike + S3 slow sword)
edit: perhaps it is because of 6% anti dodge that I can play so smooth, or because of 2 haste procs. Fact is, most times my weapons are very fast and my offhand won't get any dodges. My excess crit level is preventing that I have problems with Rampage (although I have too much crit socketed, waiting for gem vendor to resocket) and is giving me lots of rage.
However. You can't even "exactly predict" how much rage you will have with a fast offhand, too. You can say its easier to play with a fast offhand, what you can't say is, that you can't play the same playstyle with a slow/slow setup or have the same DPS, or even more, which I try to say, is possible. I have rarely any problems with rage to miss a BT/WW, and only problems with excess rage, when there is extensive damage incoming (both of what you even can't prevent with a fast offhand). On top of that I'm never using hamstring, and rampage is so rarely falling off, that its not worth to speak about. It's a simple fact, that a human being can get used to everything, this includes different playstyles with different weapons without any noticeable disadvantage or loss of DPS.
(wrong weapon equipped in armory, I normally wear dragonstrike + S3 slow sword)
edit: perhaps it is because of 6% anti dodge that I can play so smooth, or because of 2 haste procs. Fact is, most times my weapons are very fast and my offhand won't get any dodges. My excess crit level is preventing that I have problems with Rampage (although I have too much crit socketed, waiting for gem vendor to resocket) and is giving me lots of rage.
Last edited by Kaan : 05/03/08 at 7:17 PM.
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Originally Posted by Kaan
...
|
Care to elaborate?Everything you've stated has basically been a summary of your personal character and playstyle. Without any sort of WWS for example, it's hard to place your playstyle against claimed performance.
I wanted to claim that playing slow/slow weapon setup is just as fine as playing slow/fast, that's all. Don't have any comparable WWS though, we kill Teron in ~4-5 minutes, and don't fight Brutallus yet. You just have to trust me on my words, then. However, Teron is just spamming heroic strike, there just can't be any difference in HS usage between slow/slow weapons and slow/fast weapons on this encounter. So he claimed, that his HS usage is better on Teron - there is actually nothing to claim there.
edit: typo.
edit: typo.
I don't think anyone is doubting the viability of slow-slow . What Perkynose's logs show is not that slow-slow is bad, but rather that slow-fast can work really well as well (although maybe he would have even higher dps with slow-slow, who knows...).
For that matter, if Teron (I still haven't seen that fight yet, we just started BT) really lets you spam HS like crazy, wouldn't fast-fast be the way to go then (or perhaps fast-slow)?
. What Perkynose's logs show is not that slow-slow is bad, but rather that slow-fast can work really well as well (although maybe he would have even higher dps with slow-slow, who knows...).For that matter, if Teron (I still haven't seen that fight yet, we just started BT) really lets you spam HS like crazy, wouldn't fast-fast be the way to go then (or perhaps fast-slow)?
|
Originally Posted by Gruntle
wouldn't fast-fast be the way to go then?
|
I don't understand what the value in fast/slow would ever be. If the goal is to HStrike spam, the off-chance your OH misses means huge rage deprivation needed to fuel your MH consumption.
Hey guys. Just a couple questions, as I continue to try and maximize my dps output.
Do most folks chain-chug Haste Potions?
Also, is Subtlety a useful cloak enchant, assuming naturally that you always have Salvation available? I've been thinking of switching it to agility for greater crit.
Thanks again for your advice, helps those of us with poor heads for statistics greatly.
Do most folks chain-chug Haste Potions?
Also, is Subtlety a useful cloak enchant, assuming naturally that you always have Salvation available? I've been thinking of switching it to agility for greater crit.
Thanks again for your advice, helps those of us with poor heads for statistics greatly.
To Kaan:
My Heroic usage is more than than average, so come again
My Heroic usage is more than than average, so come again
|
Originally Posted by Lord Pendragon
Hey guys. Just a couple questions, as I continue to try and maximize my dps output.
Do most folks chain-chug Haste Potions? Also, is Subtlety a useful cloak enchant, assuming naturally that you always have Salvation available? I've been thinking of switching it to agility for greater crit. Thanks again for your advice, helps those of us with poor heads for statistics greatly. |
Sublety isnt the way to go. I found i make the least threat of all the melee. Usually if we have a tank death, the boss turns around and chop 1. rogue 2. shammys 3. arms warrior 4. me
Go and get your agi enchant.
|
Originally Posted by perkynose
Yes chug those haste pots.
Sublety isnt the way to go. I found i make the least threat of all the melee. Usually if we have a tank death, the boss turns around and chop 1. rogue 2. shammys 3. arms warrior 4. me Go and get your agi enchant. |
@Haste pots
I'd definitely use them as fury, I've actually been using them as arms too, execute range+reck+haste+heroism+drums is pretty awesome. I'd try to time all your cooldowns so they're all up at once
Another trick is to simply put an enh shammy in tank group.
|
Originally Posted by perkynose
Another trick is to simply put an enh shammy in tank group.
|
It'd definitely be nice, maybe 100+ more TPS?
Resto shammy will work good too. Plus str totem = more block.
|
Originally Posted by Mardraum
Plus str totem = more block.
|
|
Originally Posted by Mjollnir
I think Natural did some fast/fast testing a while back. I'm sure there's some wisdom to be shared there.
I don't understand what the value in fast/slow would ever be. If the goal is to HStrike spam, the off-chance your OH misses means huge rage deprivation needed to fuel your MH consumption. |
Anyway, in a situation with rage overflow (perhaps from lots of incoming damage) and using HS spam fast-slow should be the theoretically best option (lets you pump out HS at a <1.5 sec "cooldown" and gives your WW's some extra punch). But, as you point out, if you're getting rage starved it won't work at all.
Edited onPatch 2.4.1
|
Originally Posted by perkynose
To Kaan:
My Heroic usage is more than than average, so come again |
very impressive to see so much potential, not even for slow/off, even for the whole warrior class.
I'm slow/slow myself and we are on brutallus at the moment. (6x 1% wipes in a row:-)
My group consists of:
Rogue
Enhancement shaman
BM Hunter
RetPaladin
me (fury slow/slow)
When I look into your armory, we have comparable gear (though yours is truly better when i take a look at helmet and belt)
Nevermind, Brutallus fight begins and i can go full out. Up to 20% in can hold (sometimes more sometimes less) just about 1900 dps max, in the <20% phase i go up to 2000.(max ~2100)
What do you think, where the main difference is? I pretty do the normal rotation (bt & ww on cd and throwing in hs) but dps wont increase.
Since Brut has lots of Armor and i had a lot of dodges and parries i changed my gear to lesser ArP and more hit.
Long story here the questions :-)
Do you think ArP is always to prefer or which rating do you think is good for brut? (i can go up to ~1350 ArP without executioner)
How much hit is your minimum for such a slow/fast combination?
And what do you think of Dragonscale Encrusted longblade as fast offhand?
Do you think you could reach such high dps with slow/slow?
And a last one :-)
How do you use the executetime? keep the normal rotation?
thx a lot
Last edited by cainor : 05/06/08 at 6:46 AM.
Edited onPatch 2.4.1
|
Originally Posted by perkynose
To Kaan:
My Heroic usage is more than than average, so come again |
To Gruntle:
Fast Mainhand results in higher heroic strike damage, but your Windfury extra swings and your WW's suffer from a fast mainhand. So it would be a slight increase in damage, when it's not even a decrease.
edit:
one more thing to perkynose:
You have stacked lots of haste rating... this obviously pushes out more melee attacks and therefore more HS.
Last edited by Kaan : 05/06/08 at 7:48 AM.
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Originally Posted by Kaan
Your gear isn't average, your support isn't average and your fights aren't average, Brutallus in 5 minutes, Teron in 2:40 min. Doesn't prove anything to me, and hasn't specifally anything to do with weapon setup. So you claimed slow/fast works (at least) better for you. You saw warriors pre-BC like 1550 DPS @ Patchwerk? When I look at your equip and support, I remember warriors spamming HS like crazy pre-BC. Your HS-usage hasn't anything to do with your weapon setup, but with your items and support overall and the length of the fights. Swimming in rage and therefore spamming Heroic Strike.
To Gruntle: Fast Mainhand results in higher heroic strike damage, but your Windfury extra swings and your WW's suffer from a fast mainhand. So it would be a slight increase in damage, when it's not even a decrease. edit: one more thing to perkynose: You have stacked lots of haste rating... this obviously pushes out more melee attacks and therefore more HS. |
Well, i still dont know what you want to point out. The support he gets is the support of nearly every meleegroup. And his dps speak for their own.
I wouldnt think about trying this setup if the difference were like 100-150 dps. Perky does like 300++ more dps than average. Or how much dps do you do on brutallus with slow/slow?
Edited onPatch 2.4.1
|
Originally Posted by Gruntle
Yes of course, a slow OH will always be a bit riskier. But in a situation where you have enough rage to spam HS with a fast MH I guess getting some misses with a slow OH might not hurt terribly. A fast-slow setup will do slightly higher WW damage after all.
Anyway, in a situation with rage overflow (perhaps from lots of incoming damage) and using HS spam fast-slow should be the theoretically best option (lets you pump out HS at a <1.5 sec "cooldown" and gives your WW's some extra punch). But, as you point out, if you're getting rage starved it won't work at all. |
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Originally Posted by Kaan
Fast Mainhand results in higher heroic strike damage, but your Windfury extra swings and your WW's suffer from a fast mainhand.
|
Edit: fast:slow ratio corrected in WW comparison based on 1.5 and 2.8spd BT weapon dps values.
Last edited by Mjollnir : 05/06/08 at 8:08 AM.
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Originally Posted by perkynose
I think it's very interesting, all this about fast or slow ohand. Im a big fan of fast for the rage generation, so i can spam heroics. A slow make me rage starved, and i would need more hit also, to make up for the less heroic spam. The extra damage i could get from a slow and even with same speed, so i would get the bugged flurry 4 swings, doesnt make up for it at all. Thats just my 2 cent. Here's some wws logs to look at. :P
Brutallus 2559 dps Gorefiend 2801 dps |
That is a very impressive dps. How many heroisms did you get? I can't tell from wws anymore, because shard of contempts proc has the same name. Also what kinda party were you in? I've never seen warrior so high on brutallus and that include warglaive ones..
Edited onPatch 2.4.1
Hello
To SSLanfear:
I had 2 heroisms for the first time in my life and it was great, at Gorefiend i only had 1 though. Btw i actually have made more on Gorefiend. WWS
My party was:
Brut: retri-pala, rogue, enh shaman, and BM hunter.
Teron: feral, rogue, BM hunter, enh shaman
To milanista11:
Without checking your gear, my guess is ArP.
To Gruntle:
I think i use pretty standard rotation. BT and WW everytime its up. keeping shouts(battle + demo), rampage up inbtween, and rest is heroic-spam. its all about when to take a break really. I think its nice to have used the same weapon combo for so long, so i get to know the rhythm in em, eventhough i wish for new weapons ofc (read Glaives), but our rogue is first in line, and we havent had one single drop yet. Talk about luck I must say though that im rather sloppy with my rotation. I dont keep it 100%. So i guess i sometimes prioritize a heroic for a WW, and i also refresh rampage must sooner than i should, that includes shouts too.
Perky
To SSLanfear:
I had 2 heroisms for the first time in my life and it was great
, at Gorefiend i only had 1 though. Btw i actually have made more on Gorefiend. WWSMy party was:
Brut: retri-pala, rogue, enh shaman, and BM hunter.
Teron: feral, rogue, BM hunter, enh shaman
To milanista11:
Without checking your gear, my guess is ArP.
To Gruntle:
I think i use pretty standard rotation. BT and WW everytime its up. keeping shouts(battle + demo), rampage up inbtween, and rest is heroic-spam. its all about when to take a break really. I think its nice to have used the same weapon combo for so long, so i get to know the rhythm in em, eventhough i wish for new weapons ofc (read Glaives), but our rogue is first in line, and we havent had one single drop yet. Talk about luck
I must say though that im rather sloppy with my rotation. I dont keep it 100%. So i guess i sometimes prioritize a heroic for a WW, and i also refresh rampage must sooner than i should, that includes shouts too. Perky
Last edited by perkynose : 05/03/08 at 12:11 PM.
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Originally Posted by perkynose
...
|
(Also, avoid signing posts around here).
|
Originally Posted by Mjollnir
Out of curiosity, you don't spamstring at all?
(Also, avoid signing posts around here). |
Also if a WF proc then it eats rage fast with heroic-spam. Id rather use that.
(I'll stop signing from now on)
That's some freak dps, kudos. I see you have a boomkin, so that's 3% extra hit over what most dps warriors have, since it's not very common to find one. Also a couple of other reasons may be your gear level(I can't access europe armory for some reason, but I've seen select players with 5+ sunwell items) and the use of a fast offhand, which I will definitely test next time I raid. My best was just over 2100 dps as fury(using Solarian's so that is a big lower dps) over here: Wow Web Stats .
You had an almost equal percentage of damage from white and heroic strike, so a quick offhand for smooth rage generation at high dps levels seems to be better, at least judging from your numbers.
You had an almost equal percentage of damage from white and heroic strike, so a quick offhand for smooth rage generation at high dps levels seems to be better, at least judging from your numbers.
How much percent Heroic Strike usage has nothing to do with slow or fast offhand, rather you have the skill to play with the weapon setup (slow/slow in particular, most would say its harder to play than slow/fast), and the right support to have enough rage to spam heroic strike almost all the time.
However, the more hit you have with a slow/slow setup, so its easier to play slow/slow ... I have upgraded to 186 hit, and I can say, its very smooth to play now (although wasn't before).
However, the more hit you have with a slow/slow setup, so its easier to play slow/slow ... I have upgraded to 186 hit, and I can say, its very smooth to play now (although wasn't before).
|
Originally Posted by Kaan
How much percent Heroic Strike usage has nothing to do with slow or fast offhand, rather you have the skill to play with the weapon setup (slow/slow in particular, most would say its harder to play than slow/fast), and the right support to have enough rage to spam heroic strike almost all the time.
However, the more hit you have with a slow/slow setup, so its easier to play slow/slow ... I have upgraded to 186 hit, and I can say, its very smooth to play now (although wasn't before). |
Edited onPatch 2.4.1
I know for the appearing advances of a fast offhand, I played myself the longest time with a fast offhand and needed a long time to be used to a slow offhand.
However. You can't even "exactly predict" how much rage you will have with a fast offhand, too. You can say its easier to play with a fast offhand, what you can't say is, that you can't play the same playstyle with a slow/slow setup or have the same DPS, or even more, which I try to say, is possible. I have rarely any problems with rage to miss a BT/WW, and only problems with excess rage, when there is extensive damage incoming (both of what you even can't prevent with a fast offhand). On top of that I'm never using hamstring, and rampage is so rarely falling off, that its not worth to speak about. It's a simple fact, that a human being can get used to everything, this includes different playstyles with different weapons without any noticeable disadvantage or loss of DPS.
(wrong weapon equipped in armory, I normally wear dragonstrike + S3 slow sword)
edit: perhaps it is because of 6% anti dodge that I can play so smooth, or because of 2 haste procs. Fact is, most times my weapons are very fast and my offhand won't get any dodges. My excess crit level is preventing that I have problems with Rampage (although I have too much crit socketed, waiting for gem vendor to resocket) and is giving me lots of rage.
However. You can't even "exactly predict" how much rage you will have with a fast offhand, too. You can say its easier to play with a fast offhand, what you can't say is, that you can't play the same playstyle with a slow/slow setup or have the same DPS, or even more, which I try to say, is possible. I have rarely any problems with rage to miss a BT/WW, and only problems with excess rage, when there is extensive damage incoming (both of what you even can't prevent with a fast offhand). On top of that I'm never using hamstring, and rampage is so rarely falling off, that its not worth to speak about. It's a simple fact, that a human being can get used to everything, this includes different playstyles with different weapons without any noticeable disadvantage or loss of DPS.
(wrong weapon equipped in armory, I normally wear dragonstrike + S3 slow sword)
edit: perhaps it is because of 6% anti dodge that I can play so smooth, or because of 2 haste procs. Fact is, most times my weapons are very fast and my offhand won't get any dodges. My excess crit level is preventing that I have problems with Rampage (although I have too much crit socketed, waiting for gem vendor to resocket) and is giving me lots of rage.
Last edited by Kaan : 05/03/08 at 7:17 PM.
|
Originally Posted by Kaan
...
|
Care to elaborate?Everything you've stated has basically been a summary of your personal character and playstyle. Without any sort of WWS for example, it's hard to place your playstyle against claimed performance.
I wanted to claim that playing slow/slow weapon setup is just as fine as playing slow/fast, that's all. Don't have any comparable WWS though, we kill Teron in ~4-5 minutes, and don't fight Brutallus yet. You just have to trust me on my words, then. However, Teron is just spamming heroic strike, there just can't be any difference in HS usage between slow/slow weapons and slow/fast weapons on this encounter. So he claimed, that his HS usage is better on Teron - there is actually nothing to claim there.
edit: typo.
edit: typo.
I don't think anyone is doubting the viability of slow-slow . What Perkynose's logs show is not that slow-slow is bad, but rather that slow-fast can work really well as well (although maybe he would have even higher dps with slow-slow, who knows...).
For that matter, if Teron (I still haven't seen that fight yet, we just started BT) really lets you spam HS like crazy, wouldn't fast-fast be the way to go then (or perhaps fast-slow)?
. What Perkynose's logs show is not that slow-slow is bad, but rather that slow-fast can work really well as well (although maybe he would have even higher dps with slow-slow, who knows...).For that matter, if Teron (I still haven't seen that fight yet, we just started BT) really lets you spam HS like crazy, wouldn't fast-fast be the way to go then (or perhaps fast-slow)?
|
Originally Posted by Gruntle
wouldn't fast-fast be the way to go then?
|
I don't understand what the value in fast/slow would ever be. If the goal is to HStrike spam, the off-chance your OH misses means huge rage deprivation needed to fuel your MH consumption.
Hey guys. Just a couple questions, as I continue to try and maximize my dps output.
Do most folks chain-chug Haste Potions?
Also, is Subtlety a useful cloak enchant, assuming naturally that you always have Salvation available? I've been thinking of switching it to agility for greater crit.
Thanks again for your advice, helps those of us with poor heads for statistics greatly.
Do most folks chain-chug Haste Potions?
Also, is Subtlety a useful cloak enchant, assuming naturally that you always have Salvation available? I've been thinking of switching it to agility for greater crit.
Thanks again for your advice, helps those of us with poor heads for statistics greatly.
To Kaan:
My Heroic usage is more than than average, so come again
My Heroic usage is more than than average, so come again
|
Originally Posted by Lord Pendragon
Hey guys. Just a couple questions, as I continue to try and maximize my dps output.
Do most folks chain-chug Haste Potions? Also, is Subtlety a useful cloak enchant, assuming naturally that you always have Salvation available? I've been thinking of switching it to agility for greater crit. Thanks again for your advice, helps those of us with poor heads for statistics greatly. |
Sublety isnt the way to go. I found i make the least threat of all the melee. Usually if we have a tank death, the boss turns around and chop 1. rogue 2. shammys 3. arms warrior 4. me
Go and get your agi enchant.
|
Originally Posted by perkynose
Yes chug those haste pots.
Sublety isnt the way to go. I found i make the least threat of all the melee. Usually if we have a tank death, the boss turns around and chop 1. rogue 2. shammys 3. arms warrior 4. me Go and get your agi enchant. |
@Haste pots
I'd definitely use them as fury, I've actually been using them as arms too, execute range+reck+haste+heroism+drums is pretty awesome. I'd try to time all your cooldowns so they're all up at once
Another trick is to simply put an enh shammy in tank group.
|
Originally Posted by perkynose
Another trick is to simply put an enh shammy in tank group.
|
It'd definitely be nice, maybe 100+ more TPS?
Resto shammy will work good too. Plus str totem = more block.
|
Originally Posted by Mardraum
Plus str totem = more block.
|
|
Originally Posted by Mjollnir
I think Natural did some fast/fast testing a while back. I'm sure there's some wisdom to be shared there.
I don't understand what the value in fast/slow would ever be. If the goal is to HStrike spam, the off-chance your OH misses means huge rage deprivation needed to fuel your MH consumption. |
Anyway, in a situation with rage overflow (perhaps from lots of incoming damage) and using HS spam fast-slow should be the theoretically best option (lets you pump out HS at a <1.5 sec "cooldown" and gives your WW's some extra punch). But, as you point out, if you're getting rage starved it won't work at all.
Edited onPatch 2.4.1
|
Originally Posted by perkynose
To Kaan:
My Heroic usage is more than than average, so come again |
very impressive to see so much potential, not even for slow/off, even for the whole warrior class.
I'm slow/slow myself and we are on brutallus at the moment. (6x 1% wipes in a row:-)
My group consists of:
Rogue
Enhancement shaman
BM Hunter
RetPaladin
me (fury slow/slow)
When I look into your armory, we have comparable gear (though yours is truly better when i take a look at helmet and belt)
Nevermind, Brutallus fight begins and i can go full out. Up to 20% in can hold (sometimes more sometimes less) just about 1900 dps max, in the <20% phase i go up to 2000.(max ~2100)
What do you think, where the main difference is? I pretty do the normal rotation (bt & ww on cd and throwing in hs) but dps wont increase.
Since Brut has lots of Armor and i had a lot of dodges and parries i changed my gear to lesser ArP and more hit.
Long story here the questions :-)
Do you think ArP is always to prefer or which rating do you think is good for brut? (i can go up to ~1350 ArP without executioner)
How much hit is your minimum for such a slow/fast combination?
And what do you think of Dragonscale Encrusted longblade as fast offhand?
Do you think you could reach such high dps with slow/slow?
And a last one :-)
How do you use the executetime? keep the normal rotation?
thx a lot
Last edited by cainor : 05/06/08 at 6:46 AM.
Edited onPatch 2.4.1
|
Originally Posted by perkynose
To Kaan:
My Heroic usage is more than than average, so come again |
To Gruntle:
Fast Mainhand results in higher heroic strike damage, but your Windfury extra swings and your WW's suffer from a fast mainhand. So it would be a slight increase in damage, when it's not even a decrease.
edit:
one more thing to perkynose:
You have stacked lots of haste rating... this obviously pushes out more melee attacks and therefore more HS.
Last edited by Kaan : 05/06/08 at 7:48 AM.
|
Originally Posted by Kaan
Your gear isn't average, your support isn't average and your fights aren't average, Brutallus in 5 minutes, Teron in 2:40 min. Doesn't prove anything to me, and hasn't specifally anything to do with weapon setup. So you claimed slow/fast works (at least) better for you. You saw warriors pre-BC like 1550 DPS @ Patchwerk? When I look at your equip and support, I remember warriors spamming HS like crazy pre-BC. Your HS-usage hasn't anything to do with your weapon setup, but with your items and support overall and the length of the fights. Swimming in rage and therefore spamming Heroic Strike.
To Gruntle: Fast Mainhand results in higher heroic strike damage, but your Windfury extra swings and your WW's suffer from a fast mainhand. So it would be a slight increase in damage, when it's not even a decrease. edit: one more thing to perkynose: You have stacked lots of haste rating... this obviously pushes out more melee attacks and therefore more HS. |
Well, i still dont know what you want to point out. The support he gets is the support of nearly every meleegroup. And his dps speak for their own.
I wouldnt think about trying this setup if the difference were like 100-150 dps. Perky does like 300++ more dps than average. Or how much dps do you do on brutallus with slow/slow?
Edited onPatch 2.4.1
|
Originally Posted by Gruntle
Yes of course, a slow OH will always be a bit riskier. But in a situation where you have enough rage to spam HS with a fast MH I guess getting some misses with a slow OH might not hurt terribly. A fast-slow setup will do slightly higher WW damage after all.
Anyway, in a situation with rage overflow (perhaps from lots of incoming damage) and using HS spam fast-slow should be the theoretically best option (lets you pump out HS at a <1.5 sec "cooldown" and gives your WW's some extra punch). But, as you point out, if you're getting rage starved it won't work at all. |
|
Originally Posted by Kaan
Fast Mainhand results in higher heroic strike damage, but your Windfury extra swings and your WW's suffer from a fast mainhand.
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Edit: fast:slow ratio corrected in WW comparison based on 1.5 and 2.8spd BT weapon dps values.
Last edited by Mjollnir : 05/06/08 at 8:08 AM.
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Originally Posted by cainor
Well, i still dont know what you want to point out. The support he gets is the support of nearly every meleegroup. And his dps speak for their own.
I wouldnt think about trying this setup if the difference were like 100-150 dps. Perky does like 300++ more dps than average. Or how much dps do you do on brutallus with slow/slow? |
To Mjollnir: Yep I'm sorry, I already read this here before, but forgot that.
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Originally Posted by Mjollnir
With regards to WW- I think it's save to claim it accounts for about 10-15% of total dmg contribution and that's being a little lenient. By going fast/slow we're talking about a 3-5% increase inside of that 10-15%... really chump change. If the goal is to spam HStrike (which is usually second, or tied with BT for second, in total dmg contribution), then why risk rage deprivation that is already plenty an issue at times? Dare I say: a DW warrior should never have an OH that swings slower than his MH. This isn't back-able mathematically, but rings as something that makes sense to me in-game. (Granted, some things in-game can be misleading in terms of optimization).
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, which was the point I was trying to make.I don't really think fast-slow is that bad (I was running with that or a long time due to not getting any new weapon drops) and didn't really have much problems. The only problem you could get is possible rage starvation due to miss streaks with OH and excessive use of HS, but that is a problem for all setups with slow weapons. To summarize, and bear in mind that this is for a high rage situation when you can use HS on almost every swing (at SSC/TK level you should really be more worried about keeping up the BT/WW cycle):
- Slow-Fast, medium WW damage, medium HS damage (slow MH, smooth rage generation)
- Slow-Slow, high WW damage, low HS damage (slow MH, chunky rage generation)
- Fast-Slow, <medium WW damage, medium HS damage (fast MH, chunky rage generation)
- Fast-Fast, low WW damage, high HS damage (fast MH, smooth rage generation)
The point Kaan is trying to make is that chunky rage generation will not hurt your HS damage (thus giving slow-slow the edge). I don't agree with this, I find it a lot harder using HS aggressively when using slow-slow (disclaimer, I am however at SSC/TK level of gear so feel free to ignore my experiences
). Otherwise you should select a weapon setup based on what you believe is most important in terms of damage (extra WW damage cf to extra HS damage from fast MH/smooth rage generation).Edited onPatch 2.4.1
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Originally Posted by Gruntle
But, fast-slow will be undeniably better if you have unlimited rage
, which was the point I was trying to make. |
(Syphon and SS Bludgeon being the weapons compared).
Edit: below, the normalized values are calculated with fast:slow comparison. There is hardly a difference apparently.
Last edited by Mjollnir : 05/07/08 at 12:54 AM.
Edited onPatch 2.4.1
Why hasnt anyone caught up with the fact that Perkynose has 13x "Haste" buffs on the Brutallus WWS? I mean, we cant see how many Bloodlusts/Heroisms he had, since Shard of Contempt proc the "Heroism" buff, but thats not the matter.
Its the general assumption that DST has an internal cd of 45s, and in a 6 mins fight, that accounts for 8 procs. That is, on the paper. DST will never proc off your very first hit, and will never refresh itself with the first hit after the initial proc runs out - chain-proc so to speak. And in a Brut fight, you can use max 3x haste pots.
On top on all this, Perkynose is doing a 5 mins 30 sec Brut kill, which means 3x haste pots, 7x (theoretical!) DST procs, no Abacus of violent odds, no warglave proc...
Where on earth does the last 3 haste buffs come from? What did i miss?
Its the general assumption that DST has an internal cd of 45s, and in a 6 mins fight, that accounts for 8 procs. That is, on the paper. DST will never proc off your very first hit, and will never refresh itself with the first hit after the initial proc runs out - chain-proc so to speak. And in a Brut fight, you can use max 3x haste pots.
On top on all this, Perkynose is doing a 5 mins 30 sec Brut kill, which means 3x haste pots, 7x (theoretical!) DST procs, no Abacus of violent odds, no warglave proc...
Where on earth does the last 3 haste buffs come from? What did i miss?
Last edited by Webb : 05/06/08 at 9:11 AM. Reason: typo
If he was using Dragonstrike or the Abacus, those procs/uses are ALSO called Haste. I really wish WWS would use spell ID numbers, rather than name to categorize items in a parse. "Haste" (of differing values) is the name for DST, Abacus, Dragonstrike and potions.
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Originally Posted by Webb
Why hasnt anyone caught up with the fact that Perkynose has 13x "Haste" buffs on the Brutallus WWS? I mean, we cant see how many Bloodlusts/Heroisms he had, since Shard of Contempt proc the "Heroism" buff, but thats not the matter.
Its the general assumption that DST has an internal cd of 45s, and in a 6 mins fight, that accounts for 8 procs. That is, on the paper. DST will never proc off your very first hit, and will never refresh itself with the first hit after the initial proc runs out - chain-proc so to speak. And in a Brut fight, you can use max 3x haste pots. On top on all this, Perkynose is doing a 5 mins 30 sec Brut kill, which means 3x haste pots, 7x (theoretical!) DST procs, no Abacus of violent odds, no warglave proc... Where on earth does the last 3 haste buffs come from? What did i miss? |
On the subject of WWS and checking how many heroisms are received. Assuming all shaman use it you can interogate the heroism ID to see how many players other than those with Shard of Contempt received it. Whatever is left should tell you how many times melee received heroism.
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Originally Posted by Cavein
Could mongoose on offhand account for the extra haste procs?
On the subject of WWS and checking how many heroisms are received. Assuming all shaman use it you can interogate the heroism ID to see how many players other than those with Shard of Contempt received it. Whatever is left should tell you how many times melee received heroism. |
And good idea on the heroism part, if you can figure out how the groups were set.
About the fast weapon being better heroic strike damage thing: You really have to have a ton of rage for this to come out ahead.
One of the main advantages of heroic strike is that it converts a white hit with the extra 19% miss penalty to a special attack.
So lets say the attack is with a weapon of 100 dps, 2.7 speed, and 3500 AP. That AP is 250dps, so average damage done is 350*2.7 = 945.
Lets say you have about 12% +hit including precision, so a bit over the cap but not a ton. This is probably a reasonable average. Lets say you have 35% crit. Lets say you have 11 expertise skill due to Shard of Contempt, and 2/2 Weapon mastery, reducing dodges to about 1.45%-1.75%. (If its 6.2 and 6.5% respectively). I'm going to use 1.5% for simplicity.
The white attack will be:
16% miss (0)
1.5% dodge (0)
25% glancing (.65*945)
22.5% hit (1.0*945)
35% crit (2.03*945) with relentless earthstorm diamond
Average = .25*.65*945 + .225*945 + .35*2.03*945 = 1037 average damage = 384 dps
The heroic strike will be 945+176 damage, or 1121.
The table will be:
0% miss (0)
1.5% dodge (0)
63.5% hit (1.0 * 1121)
35% crit (2.23 * 1121)
Average = .635 * 1121 + .35*2.23*1121 = 1586 (587 dps)
Gain by heroic striking every attack with 2.7 speed weapon: 203 dps (plus more procs).
Rage cost = All MH rage generation + 4.44 rage per second.
For a 1.6 speed wepaon, also 100 dps, same stats, damage per hit = 560 on average:
Average = .25*.65*560 + .225*560 + .35*2.03*560 = 614. Still 384 dps.
The heroic stike does a base of 560+176 = 736 damage base.
Average = .635 * 736 + .35*2.23*736 = 1041 (651 dps).
The faster weapon increased our heroic strike dps by 64dps more than doing this with a 2.7 speed weapon.
The rage cost is now: All MH rage generation + 7.5 rage per second.
Now how much Whirlwind dps do we lose?
Whirlwind does weapon damage, and is a special attack, so damage is:
(.635*1.0 + .35*2.23) * 350*Speed, or 495*Weapon speed for the main hand hit. Using every 9 seconds we get:
1337/9 = 148 dps from WW from MH 2.7 speed weapon.
792/9 = 88 dps from WW with MH 1.6 speed weapon.
Thats a loss of 60 dps from Whirlwind by having a MH speed of 1.6 instead of 2.7.
Additionally, we will get less extra procs of executioner, etc.
Total effect of switching from Slow MH to Fast MH, if you use heroic strike EVERY attack:
+64 heroic strike dps, -60 WW dps, less procs. The procs are worth more than 4 dps, so:
1) You lose dps, due to the loss of WW dps being as big a factor as your HS dps gain, and you lose procs.
2) Your rage cost increases
There is no benefit.
If you heroic strike less often than every attack, then it becomes WORSE than this. You still lose the same amount of WW damage but your heroic strike gains go down.
Conclusion: Even with inifinite rage, it is still superior to use a slow main hand weapon. (In non-execute range).
If you incorporate some haste into both of these weapons, you'll still get a similar result.
Slow MH is correct, even under infinite rage.
One of the main advantages of heroic strike is that it converts a white hit with the extra 19% miss penalty to a special attack.
So lets say the attack is with a weapon of 100 dps, 2.7 speed, and 3500 AP. That AP is 250dps, so average damage done is 350*2.7 = 945.
Lets say you have about 12% +hit including precision, so a bit over the cap but not a ton. This is probably a reasonable average. Lets say you have 35% crit. Lets say you have 11 expertise skill due to Shard of Contempt, and 2/2 Weapon mastery, reducing dodges to about 1.45%-1.75%. (If its 6.2 and 6.5% respectively). I'm going to use 1.5% for simplicity.
The white attack will be:
16% miss (0)
1.5% dodge (0)
25% glancing (.65*945)
22.5% hit (1.0*945)
35% crit (2.03*945) with relentless earthstorm diamond
Average = .25*.65*945 + .225*945 + .35*2.03*945 = 1037 average damage = 384 dps
The heroic strike will be 945+176 damage, or 1121.
The table will be:
0% miss (0)
1.5% dodge (0)
63.5% hit (1.0 * 1121)
35% crit (2.23 * 1121)
Average = .635 * 1121 + .35*2.23*1121 = 1586 (587 dps)
Gain by heroic striking every attack with 2.7 speed weapon: 203 dps (plus more procs).
Rage cost = All MH rage generation + 4.44 rage per second.
For a 1.6 speed wepaon, also 100 dps, same stats, damage per hit = 560 on average:
Average = .25*.65*560 + .225*560 + .35*2.03*560 = 614. Still 384 dps.
The heroic stike does a base of 560+176 = 736 damage base.
Average = .635 * 736 + .35*2.23*736 = 1041 (651 dps).
The faster weapon increased our heroic strike dps by 64dps more than doing this with a 2.7 speed weapon.
The rage cost is now: All MH rage generation + 7.5 rage per second.
Now how much Whirlwind dps do we lose?
Whirlwind does weapon damage, and is a special attack, so damage is:
(.635*1.0 + .35*2.23) * 350*Speed, or 495*Weapon speed for the main hand hit. Using every 9 seconds we get:
1337/9 = 148 dps from WW from MH 2.7 speed weapon.
792/9 = 88 dps from WW with MH 1.6 speed weapon.
Thats a loss of 60 dps from Whirlwind by having a MH speed of 1.6 instead of 2.7.
Additionally, we will get less extra procs of executioner, etc.
Total effect of switching from Slow MH to Fast MH, if you use heroic strike EVERY attack:
+64 heroic strike dps, -60 WW dps, less procs. The procs are worth more than 4 dps, so:
1) You lose dps, due to the loss of WW dps being as big a factor as your HS dps gain, and you lose procs.
2) Your rage cost increases
There is no benefit.
If you heroic strike less often than every attack, then it becomes WORSE than this. You still lose the same amount of WW damage but your heroic strike gains go down.
Conclusion: Even with inifinite rage, it is still superior to use a slow main hand weapon. (In non-execute range).
If you incorporate some haste into both of these weapons, you'll still get a similar result.
Slow MH is correct, even under infinite rage.
Does anyone know if a numerical DPS increase has been found for using two weapons of the same speed?
I forgot about Whirlwind normalization. Anyone know if its normalized? If so there is some modest gain for fast weapon in a truly infinite rage situation, but youre losing out on both some WW damage, and procs, and paying a lot more rage.
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Originally Posted by Crimsonstorm
I forgot about Whirlwind normalization. Anyone know if its normalized?
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If you want to test it just grab some low level grey swords and whack something.
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Originally Posted by Crimsonstorm
I forgot about Whirlwind normalization. Anyone know if its normalized? If so there is some modest gain for fast weapon in a truly infinite rage situation, but youre losing out on both some WW damage, and procs, and paying a lot more rage.
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Originally Posted by dr_AllCOM3
Yes, every instant attack is.
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Maybe I'm missing something here, but being that whirlwind is normalized and unless a dagger is being used, shouldn't the OH hit for the same despite weapon speeds being different? This is of course if the weapon does the same amount of dps.
Edited onPatch 2.4.1
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Originally Posted by Ikons
Maybe I'm missing something here, but being that whirlwind is normalized and unless a dagger is being used, shouldn't the OH hit for the same despite weapon speeds being different? This is of course if the weapon does the same amount of dps.
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[Swiftsteel Bludgeon] hits for 522 on average.
[Rising Tide] hits for 591 on average.
The difference is almost negligible. It's biggest impact would be on trash AE, but on a boss fight whatever gives you the most consistent incoming rage generation would probably work better.
Last edited by Graul : 05/07/08 at 12:55 AM.
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Originally Posted by Crimsonstorm
I forgot about Whirlwind normalization. Anyone know if its normalized? If so there is some modest gain for fast weapon in a truly infinite rage situation, but youre losing out on both some WW damage, and procs, and paying a lot more rage.
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But comparing the WW damage from the slow and fast weapons is obviously done incorrectly since WW damage is normalized. With very high AP this effect will not be minor. At 3.5K AP a large part of the damage will come from normalized AP, making the slow weapon lose 0.3 weapon speed (from 2.7 to 2.4) and making the fast weapon gain 0.8 in weapon speed (from 1.6 to 2.4).
Using your numbers
Slow weapon, MH WW damage:
(.635*1.0 + .35*2.23)*(270+3500/14*2.4) = 1231 => dps = 137
Fast weapon, MH WW damage:
(.635*1.0 + .35*2.23)*(160+3500/14*2.4) = 1076 => dps = 119
The gain in using a slow MH for WW is only 18 dps. Comparing this to the 64 dps you get from using HS with a fast weapon makes the fast MH a bit more attractive. You will lose out on some procs and a slightly lower flurry uptime.
That HS spam with a fast weapon costs more rage is not interesting when you're already making the assumption of infinite rage. Still, even with a <100% use of HS I think the gain will be higher than the puny amount of extra damage you get from using WW with a slow MH. It's way harder to model though, one way of looking at it would be to say that you won't gain anything from using a fast weapon when your HS "cooldown" (due to lack of rage) with the fast weapon is longer than the slow weapon speed by some factor (related to the dps gain, 18 dps+proc dps+extra flurry uptime dps). I have no idea how to model the extra dps from procs though.
Dualwielding Dragonstrikes
This got me somewhat intrigued because of the implications, so I crafted two dragonstrikes on the PTR last week.
Promptly testing them I enjoyed that the procs were stacking (there was a screenshot floating around showing the stacking procs) and was regularly hasted down to 1.7 spd from 2.7 speed (stacking procs + flurry).
But this is moot.
I testes them again yesterday and today and have not got any stacking haste buffs from the dragonstrikes.
They still have no CD, even single wielding one gets you refreshing buffs quite often, but I had not a single stacking buff from MH + OH. I never got below 1.9 hasted speed.
Another interesting tidbit:
When the buff was refreshed the combatlog did not protocol this occurence, which is par for the course for refreshing buffs and combatlog working.
BUT see this screenshot (sorry for the german UI):
At 12:54:51 I got the (nonrefreshing) proc.
Timestamp 12:54:56 hower shows a refreshing buff by fading and starting the buff again.
Singlewielding I never got any of these happening..
Dualwielding these show up.
Could this be the OH proc canceling the MH buff?
Anyone else getting stacking buffs lately or am I wrong in this?
This got me somewhat intrigued because of the implications, so I crafted two dragonstrikes on the PTR last week.
Promptly testing them I enjoyed that the procs were stacking (there was a screenshot floating around showing the stacking procs) and was regularly hasted down to 1.7 spd from 2.7 speed (stacking procs + flurry).
But this is moot.
I testes them again yesterday and today and have not got any stacking haste buffs from the dragonstrikes.
They still have no CD, even single wielding one gets you refreshing buffs quite often, but I had not a single stacking buff from MH + OH. I never got below 1.9 hasted speed.
Another interesting tidbit:
When the buff was refreshed the combatlog did not protocol this occurence, which is par for the course for refreshing buffs and combatlog working.
BUT see this screenshot (sorry for the german UI):
At 12:54:51 I got the (nonrefreshing) proc.
Timestamp 12:54:56 hower shows a refreshing buff by fading and starting the buff again.
Singlewielding I never got any of these happening..
Dualwielding these show up.
Could this be the OH proc canceling the MH buff?
Anyone else getting stacking buffs lately or am I wrong in this?
hamstring spam?
I'm a new-ish BT raider as of the new patch and have consider myself as a strong dps warrior as I have been the top in my guild, but as I've been reading the forums today I know I have a lot to work on. One concept I'm missing is this "hamstring spam." Can someone explain it to me please? Thanks. Btw props to Perkynose on that mad dps!
I would think that's intentional, since haste buffs of the same type are not supposed to stack.
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Originally Posted by Crucif
I'm a new-ish BT raider as of the new patch and have consider myself as a strong dps warrior as I have been the top in my guild, but as I've been reading the forums today I know I have a lot to work on. One concept I'm missing is this "hamstring spam." Can someone explain it to me please? Thanks. Btw props to Perkynose on that mad dps!
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Hamstring can crit so, spamming it is an attempt to gain or refresh Flurry. It's an instant cast which you can throw in during the downtime between BT's and WW's if there's nothing else to do. Personally, I only use it if there is absolutely nothing else that needs to be refreshed or done.
If Dragonstrike no longer stacks, I suppose that puts an end to that argument. Show of hands though, who didn't see it coming?
If Dragonstrike no longer stacks, I suppose that puts an end to that argument. Show of hands though, who didn't see it coming?
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Originally Posted by Wump
Hamstring can crit so, spamming it is an attempt to gain or refresh Flurry. It's an instant cast which you can throw in during the downtime between BT's and WW's if there's nothing else to do. Personally, I only use it if there is absolutely nothing else that needs to be refreshed or done.
If Dragonstrike no longer stacks, I suppose that puts an end to that argument. Show of hands though, who didn't see it coming? |
But yeah, as for hamstring spam, I generally never do it when I'm PvE 2h, and rarely if ever when I'm fury, unless I absolutely cannot crit for the life of me, which does happen time to time.
I think Dragonstrike should stack, and wouldnt be broken if it did, because its worse in the OH than the Badge fist which costs only 45 badges, because the OH doesnt proc nearly as much.
But with it not stacking, its not even worth considering.
But with it not stacking, its not even worth considering.
Of course it shouldn't stack, no other procs of that kind do. And why should Dual DS be viable at end game when the new badge weapons and BT weapons have way higher item level? That the badge weapons are ridiculously good for the price and availability might be an issue, but that has nothing to do with how good DS is or should be.
And yes, I raise my hand. I saw it coming for sure.
About spamstring. I'd never do that as DW fury unless I already have the rage to do HS on every white swing. HS beats hamstring both in terms of damage per rage and in terms of damage per threat (remember that hamstring has bonus threat). As 2h PvE with sword spec hamstring should be excellent as a filler, but I'm not sure how many free cooldowns you have.
And yes, I raise my hand. I saw it coming for sure.
About spamstring. I'd never do that as DW fury unless I already have the rage to do HS on every white swing. HS beats hamstring both in terms of damage per rage and in terms of damage per threat (remember that hamstring has bonus threat). As 2h PvE with sword spec hamstring should be excellent as a filler, but I'm not sure how many free cooldowns you have.
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Originally Posted by Gruntle
About spamstring. I'd never do that as DW fury unless I already have the rage to do HS on every white swing. HS beats hamstring both in terms of damage per rage and in terms of damage per threat (remember that hamstring has bonus threat). As 2h PvE with sword spec hamstring should be excellent as a filler, but I'm not sure how many free cooldowns you have.
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This is where Spamstring comes into play, there's really nothing else to spend the rage on at times.
(all speaking as Fury ofc, cant see it being much help for a slam Warrior)
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Originally Posted by cainor
Well, i still dont know what you want to point out. The support he gets is the support of nearly every meleegroup. And his dps speak for their own.
I wouldnt think about trying this setup if the difference were like 100-150 dps. Perky does like 300++ more dps than average. Or how much dps do you do on brutallus with slow/slow? |
To Mjollnir: Yep I'm sorry, I already read this here before, but forgot that.
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Originally Posted by Mjollnir
With regards to WW- I think it's save to claim it accounts for about 10-15% of total dmg contribution and that's being a little lenient. By going fast/slow we're talking about a 3-5% increase inside of that 10-15%... really chump change. If the goal is to spam HStrike (which is usually second, or tied with BT for second, in total dmg contribution), then why risk rage deprivation that is already plenty an issue at times? Dare I say: a DW warrior should never have an OH that swings slower than his MH. This isn't back-able mathematically, but rings as something that makes sense to me in-game. (Granted, some things in-game can be misleading in terms of optimization).
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, which was the point I was trying to make.I don't really think fast-slow is that bad (I was running with that or a long time due to not getting any new weapon drops) and didn't really have much problems. The only problem you could get is possible rage starvation due to miss streaks with OH and excessive use of HS, but that is a problem for all setups with slow weapons. To summarize, and bear in mind that this is for a high rage situation when you can use HS on almost every swing (at SSC/TK level you should really be more worried about keeping up the BT/WW cycle):
- Slow-Fast, medium WW damage, medium HS damage (slow MH, smooth rage generation)
- Slow-Slow, high WW damage, low HS damage (slow MH, chunky rage generation)
- Fast-Slow, <medium WW damage, medium HS damage (fast MH, chunky rage generation)
- Fast-Fast, low WW damage, high HS damage (fast MH, smooth rage generation)
The point Kaan is trying to make is that chunky rage generation will not hurt your HS damage (thus giving slow-slow the edge). I don't agree with this, I find it a lot harder using HS aggressively when using slow-slow (disclaimer, I am however at SSC/TK level of gear so feel free to ignore my experiences
). Otherwise you should select a weapon setup based on what you believe is most important in terms of damage (extra WW damage cf to extra HS damage from fast MH/smooth rage generation).Edited onPatch 2.4.1
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Originally Posted by Gruntle
But, fast-slow will be undeniably better if you have unlimited rage
, which was the point I was trying to make. |
(Syphon and SS Bludgeon being the weapons compared).
Edit: below, the normalized values are calculated with fast:slow comparison. There is hardly a difference apparently.
Last edited by Mjollnir : 05/07/08 at 12:54 AM.
Edited onPatch 2.4.1
Why hasnt anyone caught up with the fact that Perkynose has 13x "Haste" buffs on the Brutallus WWS? I mean, we cant see how many Bloodlusts/Heroisms he had, since Shard of Contempt proc the "Heroism" buff, but thats not the matter.
Its the general assumption that DST has an internal cd of 45s, and in a 6 mins fight, that accounts for 8 procs. That is, on the paper. DST will never proc off your very first hit, and will never refresh itself with the first hit after the initial proc runs out - chain-proc so to speak. And in a Brut fight, you can use max 3x haste pots.
On top on all this, Perkynose is doing a 5 mins 30 sec Brut kill, which means 3x haste pots, 7x (theoretical!) DST procs, no Abacus of violent odds, no warglave proc...
Where on earth does the last 3 haste buffs come from? What did i miss?
Its the general assumption that DST has an internal cd of 45s, and in a 6 mins fight, that accounts for 8 procs. That is, on the paper. DST will never proc off your very first hit, and will never refresh itself with the first hit after the initial proc runs out - chain-proc so to speak. And in a Brut fight, you can use max 3x haste pots.
On top on all this, Perkynose is doing a 5 mins 30 sec Brut kill, which means 3x haste pots, 7x (theoretical!) DST procs, no Abacus of violent odds, no warglave proc...
Where on earth does the last 3 haste buffs come from? What did i miss?
Last edited by Webb : 05/06/08 at 9:11 AM. Reason: typo
If he was using Dragonstrike or the Abacus, those procs/uses are ALSO called Haste. I really wish WWS would use spell ID numbers, rather than name to categorize items in a parse. "Haste" (of differing values) is the name for DST, Abacus, Dragonstrike and potions.
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Originally Posted by Webb
Why hasnt anyone caught up with the fact that Perkynose has 13x "Haste" buffs on the Brutallus WWS? I mean, we cant see how many Bloodlusts/Heroisms he had, since Shard of Contempt proc the "Heroism" buff, but thats not the matter.
Its the general assumption that DST has an internal cd of 45s, and in a 6 mins fight, that accounts for 8 procs. That is, on the paper. DST will never proc off your very first hit, and will never refresh itself with the first hit after the initial proc runs out - chain-proc so to speak. And in a Brut fight, you can use max 3x haste pots. On top on all this, Perkynose is doing a 5 mins 30 sec Brut kill, which means 3x haste pots, 7x (theoretical!) DST procs, no Abacus of violent odds, no warglave proc... Where on earth does the last 3 haste buffs come from? What did i miss? |
On the subject of WWS and checking how many heroisms are received. Assuming all shaman use it you can interogate the heroism ID to see how many players other than those with Shard of Contempt received it. Whatever is left should tell you how many times melee received heroism.
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Originally Posted by Cavein
Could mongoose on offhand account for the extra haste procs?
On the subject of WWS and checking how many heroisms are received. Assuming all shaman use it you can interogate the heroism ID to see how many players other than those with Shard of Contempt received it. Whatever is left should tell you how many times melee received heroism. |
And good idea on the heroism part, if you can figure out how the groups were set.
About the fast weapon being better heroic strike damage thing: You really have to have a ton of rage for this to come out ahead.
One of the main advantages of heroic strike is that it converts a white hit with the extra 19% miss penalty to a special attack.
So lets say the attack is with a weapon of 100 dps, 2.7 speed, and 3500 AP. That AP is 250dps, so average damage done is 350*2.7 = 945.
Lets say you have about 12% +hit including precision, so a bit over the cap but not a ton. This is probably a reasonable average. Lets say you have 35% crit. Lets say you have 11 expertise skill due to Shard of Contempt, and 2/2 Weapon mastery, reducing dodges to about 1.45%-1.75%. (If its 6.2 and 6.5% respectively). I'm going to use 1.5% for simplicity.
The white attack will be:
16% miss (0)
1.5% dodge (0)
25% glancing (.65*945)
22.5% hit (1.0*945)
35% crit (2.03*945) with relentless earthstorm diamond
Average = .25*.65*945 + .225*945 + .35*2.03*945 = 1037 average damage = 384 dps
The heroic strike will be 945+176 damage, or 1121.
The table will be:
0% miss (0)
1.5% dodge (0)
63.5% hit (1.0 * 1121)
35% crit (2.23 * 1121)
Average = .635 * 1121 + .35*2.23*1121 = 1586 (587 dps)
Gain by heroic striking every attack with 2.7 speed weapon: 203 dps (plus more procs).
Rage cost = All MH rage generation + 4.44 rage per second.
For a 1.6 speed wepaon, also 100 dps, same stats, damage per hit = 560 on average:
Average = .25*.65*560 + .225*560 + .35*2.03*560 = 614. Still 384 dps.
The heroic stike does a base of 560+176 = 736 damage base.
Average = .635 * 736 + .35*2.23*736 = 1041 (651 dps).
The faster weapon increased our heroic strike dps by 64dps more than doing this with a 2.7 speed weapon.
The rage cost is now: All MH rage generation + 7.5 rage per second.
Now how much Whirlwind dps do we lose?
Whirlwind does weapon damage, and is a special attack, so damage is:
(.635*1.0 + .35*2.23) * 350*Speed, or 495*Weapon speed for the main hand hit. Using every 9 seconds we get:
1337/9 = 148 dps from WW from MH 2.7 speed weapon.
792/9 = 88 dps from WW with MH 1.6 speed weapon.
Thats a loss of 60 dps from Whirlwind by having a MH speed of 1.6 instead of 2.7.
Additionally, we will get less extra procs of executioner, etc.
Total effect of switching from Slow MH to Fast MH, if you use heroic strike EVERY attack:
+64 heroic strike dps, -60 WW dps, less procs. The procs are worth more than 4 dps, so:
1) You lose dps, due to the loss of WW dps being as big a factor as your HS dps gain, and you lose procs.
2) Your rage cost increases
There is no benefit.
If you heroic strike less often than every attack, then it becomes WORSE than this. You still lose the same amount of WW damage but your heroic strike gains go down.
Conclusion: Even with inifinite rage, it is still superior to use a slow main hand weapon. (In non-execute range).
If you incorporate some haste into both of these weapons, you'll still get a similar result.
Slow MH is correct, even under infinite rage.
One of the main advantages of heroic strike is that it converts a white hit with the extra 19% miss penalty to a special attack.
So lets say the attack is with a weapon of 100 dps, 2.7 speed, and 3500 AP. That AP is 250dps, so average damage done is 350*2.7 = 945.
Lets say you have about 12% +hit including precision, so a bit over the cap but not a ton. This is probably a reasonable average. Lets say you have 35% crit. Lets say you have 11 expertise skill due to Shard of Contempt, and 2/2 Weapon mastery, reducing dodges to about 1.45%-1.75%. (If its 6.2 and 6.5% respectively). I'm going to use 1.5% for simplicity.
The white attack will be:
16% miss (0)
1.5% dodge (0)
25% glancing (.65*945)
22.5% hit (1.0*945)
35% crit (2.03*945) with relentless earthstorm diamond
Average = .25*.65*945 + .225*945 + .35*2.03*945 = 1037 average damage = 384 dps
The heroic strike will be 945+176 damage, or 1121.
The table will be:
0% miss (0)
1.5% dodge (0)
63.5% hit (1.0 * 1121)
35% crit (2.23 * 1121)
Average = .635 * 1121 + .35*2.23*1121 = 1586 (587 dps)
Gain by heroic striking every attack with 2.7 speed weapon: 203 dps (plus more procs).
Rage cost = All MH rage generation + 4.44 rage per second.
For a 1.6 speed wepaon, also 100 dps, same stats, damage per hit = 560 on average:
Average = .25*.65*560 + .225*560 + .35*2.03*560 = 614. Still 384 dps.
The heroic stike does a base of 560+176 = 736 damage base.
Average = .635 * 736 + .35*2.23*736 = 1041 (651 dps).
The faster weapon increased our heroic strike dps by 64dps more than doing this with a 2.7 speed weapon.
The rage cost is now: All MH rage generation + 7.5 rage per second.
Now how much Whirlwind dps do we lose?
Whirlwind does weapon damage, and is a special attack, so damage is:
(.635*1.0 + .35*2.23) * 350*Speed, or 495*Weapon speed for the main hand hit. Using every 9 seconds we get:
1337/9 = 148 dps from WW from MH 2.7 speed weapon.
792/9 = 88 dps from WW with MH 1.6 speed weapon.
Thats a loss of 60 dps from Whirlwind by having a MH speed of 1.6 instead of 2.7.
Additionally, we will get less extra procs of executioner, etc.
Total effect of switching from Slow MH to Fast MH, if you use heroic strike EVERY attack:
+64 heroic strike dps, -60 WW dps, less procs. The procs are worth more than 4 dps, so:
1) You lose dps, due to the loss of WW dps being as big a factor as your HS dps gain, and you lose procs.
2) Your rage cost increases
There is no benefit.
If you heroic strike less often than every attack, then it becomes WORSE than this. You still lose the same amount of WW damage but your heroic strike gains go down.
Conclusion: Even with inifinite rage, it is still superior to use a slow main hand weapon. (In non-execute range).
If you incorporate some haste into both of these weapons, you'll still get a similar result.
Slow MH is correct, even under infinite rage.
Does anyone know if a numerical DPS increase has been found for using two weapons of the same speed?
I forgot about Whirlwind normalization. Anyone know if its normalized? If so there is some modest gain for fast weapon in a truly infinite rage situation, but youre losing out on both some WW damage, and procs, and paying a lot more rage.
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Originally Posted by Crimsonstorm
I forgot about Whirlwind normalization. Anyone know if its normalized?
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If you want to test it just grab some low level grey swords and whack something.
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Originally Posted by Crimsonstorm
I forgot about Whirlwind normalization. Anyone know if its normalized? If so there is some modest gain for fast weapon in a truly infinite rage situation, but youre losing out on both some WW damage, and procs, and paying a lot more rage.
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Originally Posted by dr_AllCOM3
Yes, every instant attack is.
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Maybe I'm missing something here, but being that whirlwind is normalized and unless a dagger is being used, shouldn't the OH hit for the same despite weapon speeds being different? This is of course if the weapon does the same amount of dps.
Edited onPatch 2.4.1
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Originally Posted by Ikons
Maybe I'm missing something here, but being that whirlwind is normalized and unless a dagger is being used, shouldn't the OH hit for the same despite weapon speeds being different? This is of course if the weapon does the same amount of dps.
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[Swiftsteel Bludgeon] hits for 522 on average.
[Rising Tide] hits for 591 on average.
The difference is almost negligible. It's biggest impact would be on trash AE, but on a boss fight whatever gives you the most consistent incoming rage generation would probably work better.
Last edited by Graul : 05/07/08 at 12:55 AM.
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Originally Posted by Crimsonstorm
I forgot about Whirlwind normalization. Anyone know if its normalized? If so there is some modest gain for fast weapon in a truly infinite rage situation, but youre losing out on both some WW damage, and procs, and paying a lot more rage.
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But comparing the WW damage from the slow and fast weapons is obviously done incorrectly since WW damage is normalized. With very high AP this effect will not be minor. At 3.5K AP a large part of the damage will come from normalized AP, making the slow weapon lose 0.3 weapon speed (from 2.7 to 2.4) and making the fast weapon gain 0.8 in weapon speed (from 1.6 to 2.4).
Using your numbers
Slow weapon, MH WW damage:
(.635*1.0 + .35*2.23)*(270+3500/14*2.4) = 1231 => dps = 137
Fast weapon, MH WW damage:
(.635*1.0 + .35*2.23)*(160+3500/14*2.4) = 1076 => dps = 119
The gain in using a slow MH for WW is only 18 dps. Comparing this to the 64 dps you get from using HS with a fast weapon makes the fast MH a bit more attractive. You will lose out on some procs and a slightly lower flurry uptime.
That HS spam with a fast weapon costs more rage is not interesting when you're already making the assumption of infinite rage. Still, even with a <100% use of HS I think the gain will be higher than the puny amount of extra damage you get from using WW with a slow MH. It's way harder to model though, one way of looking at it would be to say that you won't gain anything from using a fast weapon when your HS "cooldown" (due to lack of rage) with the fast weapon is longer than the slow weapon speed by some factor (related to the dps gain, 18 dps+proc dps+extra flurry uptime dps). I have no idea how to model the extra dps from procs though.
Dualwielding Dragonstrikes
This got me somewhat intrigued because of the implications, so I crafted two dragonstrikes on the PTR last week.
Promptly testing them I enjoyed that the procs were stacking (there was a screenshot floating around showing the stacking procs) and was regularly hasted down to 1.7 spd from 2.7 speed (stacking procs + flurry).
But this is moot.
I testes them again yesterday and today and have not got any stacking haste buffs from the dragonstrikes.
They still have no CD, even single wielding one gets you refreshing buffs quite often, but I had not a single stacking buff from MH + OH. I never got below 1.9 hasted speed.
Another interesting tidbit:
When the buff was refreshed the combatlog did not protocol this occurence, which is par for the course for refreshing buffs and combatlog working.
BUT see this screenshot (sorry for the german UI):
At 12:54:51 I got the (nonrefreshing) proc.
Timestamp 12:54:56 hower shows a refreshing buff by fading and starting the buff again.
Singlewielding I never got any of these happening..
Dualwielding these show up.
Could this be the OH proc canceling the MH buff?
Anyone else getting stacking buffs lately or am I wrong in this?
This got me somewhat intrigued because of the implications, so I crafted two dragonstrikes on the PTR last week.
Promptly testing them I enjoyed that the procs were stacking (there was a screenshot floating around showing the stacking procs) and was regularly hasted down to 1.7 spd from 2.7 speed (stacking procs + flurry).
But this is moot.
I testes them again yesterday and today and have not got any stacking haste buffs from the dragonstrikes.
They still have no CD, even single wielding one gets you refreshing buffs quite often, but I had not a single stacking buff from MH + OH. I never got below 1.9 hasted speed.
Another interesting tidbit:
When the buff was refreshed the combatlog did not protocol this occurence, which is par for the course for refreshing buffs and combatlog working.
BUT see this screenshot (sorry for the german UI):
At 12:54:51 I got the (nonrefreshing) proc.
Timestamp 12:54:56 hower shows a refreshing buff by fading and starting the buff again.
Singlewielding I never got any of these happening..
Dualwielding these show up.
Could this be the OH proc canceling the MH buff?
Anyone else getting stacking buffs lately or am I wrong in this?
hamstring spam?
I'm a new-ish BT raider as of the new patch and have consider myself as a strong dps warrior as I have been the top in my guild, but as I've been reading the forums today I know I have a lot to work on. One concept I'm missing is this "hamstring spam." Can someone explain it to me please? Thanks. Btw props to Perkynose on that mad dps!
I would think that's intentional, since haste buffs of the same type are not supposed to stack.
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Originally Posted by Crucif
I'm a new-ish BT raider as of the new patch and have consider myself as a strong dps warrior as I have been the top in my guild, but as I've been reading the forums today I know I have a lot to work on. One concept I'm missing is this "hamstring spam." Can someone explain it to me please? Thanks. Btw props to Perkynose on that mad dps!
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Hamstring can crit so, spamming it is an attempt to gain or refresh Flurry. It's an instant cast which you can throw in during the downtime between BT's and WW's if there's nothing else to do. Personally, I only use it if there is absolutely nothing else that needs to be refreshed or done.
If Dragonstrike no longer stacks, I suppose that puts an end to that argument. Show of hands though, who didn't see it coming?
If Dragonstrike no longer stacks, I suppose that puts an end to that argument. Show of hands though, who didn't see it coming?
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Originally Posted by Wump
Hamstring can crit so, spamming it is an attempt to gain or refresh Flurry. It's an instant cast which you can throw in during the downtime between BT's and WW's if there's nothing else to do. Personally, I only use it if there is absolutely nothing else that needs to be refreshed or done.
If Dragonstrike no longer stacks, I suppose that puts an end to that argument. Show of hands though, who didn't see it coming? |
But yeah, as for hamstring spam, I generally never do it when I'm PvE 2h, and rarely if ever when I'm fury, unless I absolutely cannot crit for the life of me, which does happen time to time.
I think Dragonstrike should stack, and wouldnt be broken if it did, because its worse in the OH than the Badge fist which costs only 45 badges, because the OH doesnt proc nearly as much.
But with it not stacking, its not even worth considering.
But with it not stacking, its not even worth considering.
Of course it shouldn't stack, no other procs of that kind do. And why should Dual DS be viable at end game when the new badge weapons and BT weapons have way higher item level? That the badge weapons are ridiculously good for the price and availability might be an issue, but that has nothing to do with how good DS is or should be.
And yes, I raise my hand. I saw it coming for sure.
About spamstring. I'd never do that as DW fury unless I already have the rage to do HS on every white swing. HS beats hamstring both in terms of damage per rage and in terms of damage per threat (remember that hamstring has bonus threat). As 2h PvE with sword spec hamstring should be excellent as a filler, but I'm not sure how many free cooldowns you have.
And yes, I raise my hand. I saw it coming for sure.
About spamstring. I'd never do that as DW fury unless I already have the rage to do HS on every white swing. HS beats hamstring both in terms of damage per rage and in terms of damage per threat (remember that hamstring has bonus threat). As 2h PvE with sword spec hamstring should be excellent as a filler, but I'm not sure how many free cooldowns you have.
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Originally Posted by Gruntle
About spamstring. I'd never do that as DW fury unless I already have the rage to do HS on every white swing. HS beats hamstring both in terms of damage per rage and in terms of damage per threat (remember that hamstring has bonus threat). As 2h PvE with sword spec hamstring should be excellent as a filler, but I'm not sure how many free cooldowns you have.
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This is where Spamstring comes into play, there's really nothing else to spend the rage on at times.
(all speaking as Fury ofc, cant see it being much help for a slam Warrior)
Hello everyone, this will be my first post in here :>
Last night i did my first brutallus attempts and kill (new guild). Problem was i didn't feel i was doing enough dps. Looking at my gear you may notice i'm lacking some essential pieces from bt (neck, back, gurtogg pants never seen drop of those in months of bt farming.)
Here is the wws report of the kill: Wow Web Stats
During the fight i had no problems with rage etc. Our group consisted of 2x rogues, me (fury warrior), retri pala and a resto shaman. I was chugging haste pots, timing cooldowns and doing my best, still only landing at 1666 dps made during the fight. We only had 1 drums of battle user in our group. Still i feel my dps should be higher!
Since i cannot figure out what i can do better i was hoping some of you guys could give me some ideas on how to improve, will better gear + enhancement shaman bring me up to the desired dps or am i just a bad dps'er? In BT/Hyjal i have always competed for top spots in in dmg meters, that was with my old guild tho.
Help a poor orc plz!
Last night i did my first brutallus attempts and kill (new guild). Problem was i didn't feel i was doing enough dps. Looking at my gear you may notice i'm lacking some essential pieces from bt (neck, back, gurtogg pants never seen drop of those in months of bt farming.)
Here is the wws report of the kill: Wow Web Stats
During the fight i had no problems with rage etc. Our group consisted of 2x rogues, me (fury warrior), retri pala and a resto shaman. I was chugging haste pots, timing cooldowns and doing my best, still only landing at 1666 dps made during the fight. We only had 1 drums of battle user in our group. Still i feel my dps should be higher!
Since i cannot figure out what i can do better i was hoping some of you guys could give me some ideas on how to improve, will better gear + enhancement shaman bring me up to the desired dps or am i just a bad dps'er? In BT/Hyjal i have always competed for top spots in in dmg meters, that was with my old guild tho.
Help a poor orc plz!
Looking at your WWS seems you got quite some parries there, at least 3 BT parried that quite huge loss.
You miss improved windfury, +10% AP from melee shaman and perhaps the strength totem? And as said before you have some parries and only 1 drums, and your equip isn't optimal as you said yourself.
So I think your dps is quite normal for the buffs and equip you have. What you're missing is equip and some support, I think.
So I think your dps is quite normal for the buffs and equip you have. What you're missing is equip and some support, I think.
Ohh shit my placement was really shitty i guess then. Was sure i was standing behind him so didn't even think about that.. Well there ya go.. Thanks for the help, i'll see if it goes better next week then :p
What is the optimal weapon speed for 2h DPS warriors in a raid?
Is slower still > faster?
Is slower still > faster?
Group composition?
I am just curious, who would benefit more from an Enhancement Shaman between a Fury Warrior or a Rogue?
Right now in my guild, we've got 1 Arms Warrior, 2 Fury Warrior's, 2 Rogue's, a Feral Druid, and an Enhancement Shaman.
Generally group makeup looks like the following:
Melee DPS Group#1:
-Enhancement Shaman
-Feral Druid
-Arms Warrior
-Rogue
-Rogue
Melee DPS Group#2
-Resto Shaman
-Fury Warrior
-Fury Warrior
-Misc.
-Misc.
My questions are:
1. Would it be wiser to have Fury Warrior's with the Enhancement Shaman over the Rogue's for overall DPS improvements? Or do they both benefit equal and not having one will cause similar DPS loss for both classes.
Our guild just started killing Illidan (3 kills so far...) -- but we've got our eyes on Sunwell and group synergy is a must.
Right now in my guild, we've got 1 Arms Warrior, 2 Fury Warrior's, 2 Rogue's, a Feral Druid, and an Enhancement Shaman.
Generally group makeup looks like the following:
Melee DPS Group#1:
-Enhancement Shaman
-Feral Druid
-Arms Warrior
-Rogue
-Rogue
Melee DPS Group#2
-Resto Shaman
-Fury Warrior
-Fury Warrior
-Misc.
-Misc.
My questions are:
1. Would it be wiser to have Fury Warrior's with the Enhancement Shaman over the Rogue's for overall DPS improvements? Or do they both benefit equal and not having one will cause similar DPS loss for both classes.
Our guild just started killing Illidan (3 kills so far...) -- but we've got our eyes on Sunwell and group synergy is a must.
Fury warriors benefit more vom enhancement shamans and windfury in particular. This is because warriors scale better with AP (from Unleashed Rage and imp. Winfury) and with Strength Totem. I would say rogues don't need WF that much because of poisons but I've seen they would also get WF from the resto shaman.
Slower is > faster if the stats and weapon dps are equal. Slower is even better when the stats are a bit worser than the faster weapon. But to give a few examples:
Soul Cleaver is inferior to Cataclysm's Edge because of worse DPS and Stats, though it has 0,2 slower weapon speed.
This is because slam isn't normalized thus perfectly scaling with weapon damage. MS and WW both scale with slower weapons aswell though they are normalized, but only from the higher regular weapon damage that is on slower weapons, not from the speed itself.
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What is the optimal weapon speed for 2h DPS warriors in a raid? Is slower still > faster? |
Soul Cleaver is inferior to Cataclysm's Edge because of worse DPS and Stats, though it has 0,2 slower weapon speed.
This is because slam isn't normalized thus perfectly scaling with weapon damage. MS and WW both scale with slower weapons aswell though they are normalized, but only from the higher regular weapon damage that is on slower weapons, not from the speed itself.
Doppler quick glance shows that you do pretty much ok for your gear/raid setup/consumables. In short - I usually end up around 2300 dps - my highest Bloodthirst crits are around 5200-5400 (that includes shard proc + BT during WF attack so im not sure... 650 extra ap?). Your highest crits are around 3600 - 2/3 of it, and your dps is actually higher then 2/3 of mine. Thats a very rough assessment but it suggest you are doing allright.
Lack of enh shaman contributed to that difference a lot (10% overall ap, and extra 40 or so on extra WF ap, better str totem etc).
Rest is in gear and raid buffs.
Lack of enh shaman contributed to that difference a lot (10% overall ap, and extra 40 or so on extra WF ap, better str totem etc).
Rest is in gear and raid buffs.
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Originally Posted by Webb
Where on earth does the last 3 haste buffs come from? What did i miss?
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This has probably been covered but I was unable to find information by searching for it.
My question is, how much of an issue is threat with T6 geared tanks for a fury warrior with both warglaives and the best possible gear from Hyjal/BT and the like. It is a question that was brought up and it was suggested that I ask here for an answer.
I believe it would be an issue with tanks in mostly Tier 5 and some partial Hyjal/BT gear, but I don't believe it would be as much of an issue with 4 piece Tier 6 and the best Hyajl/BT tank gear available.
Any information is greatly appreciated. Also, I apologize in advance if this was no the correct thread to ask this question in.
My question is, how much of an issue is threat with T6 geared tanks for a fury warrior with both warglaives and the best possible gear from Hyjal/BT and the like. It is a question that was brought up and it was suggested that I ask here for an answer.
I believe it would be an issue with tanks in mostly Tier 5 and some partial Hyjal/BT gear, but I don't believe it would be as much of an issue with 4 piece Tier 6 and the best Hyajl/BT tank gear available.
Any information is greatly appreciated. Also, I apologize in advance if this was no the correct thread to ask this question in.
It's always an issue, sadly. If tank cant do 1000+ TPS on average then a fully geared fury warr will definately be worrying about threat sub 20% when heroisms and recklessness and executes are thrown in to the cycle.
I would say Fury War in the Enchant Shaman group instead the Arms warrior as 10% AP will benefit more on bloodthirst and also high AP by Fury War.
However i prefer any war that willing to wear Solarian Saphire in the Melee group.
However i prefer any war that willing to wear Solarian Saphire in the Melee group.
It greatly depends on the fight, how much you have to worry about threat. Any fight where there are aggro wipes causes issues, for me anyway. However on a pure dps fight such as brutallus I only look at the threat meter the first 30 sec. After that I never come close to beeing threat capped, I can go full out and I have warglaives.
In general I dont have to worry that much about threat, not since they added the 10% extra threat reduced to improved berserker stance anyway.
In general I dont have to worry that much about threat, not since they added the 10% extra threat reduced to improved berserker stance anyway.
Edited onPatch 2.4.1
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Originally Posted by talliara
This has probably been covered but I was unable to find information by searching for it.
My question is, how much of an issue is threat with T6 geared tanks for a fury warrior with both warglaives and the best possible gear from Hyjal/BT and the like. It is a question that was brought up and it was suggested that I ask here for an answer. I believe it would be an issue with tanks in mostly Tier 5 and some partial Hyjal/BT gear, but I don't believe it would be as much of an issue with 4 piece Tier 6 and the best Hyajl/BT tank gear available. Any information is greatly appreciated. Also, I apologize in advance if this was no the correct thread to ask this question in. |
It depends alot on group setups, when your raid decides to take away your tanks WF or his shaman dies on Teron then you're fucked. I was for the first time ever threat capped on Teron this reset (with Tranquil Air) and I've experienced the threat cap on all four first fights in sunwell (using Tranquil Air on both Felmyst and Twins), to a greater and lesser extent ofcourse. Your threat is ofcourse alot higher on demons, so expect atleast Anetheron and Archimonde to be problems aswell. I tend to cut or even fully stop using heroics at 40% just to allow myself to make my executing as efficient as possible.
Last edited by Qruz : 05/11/08 at 8:38 AM.
Edited onPatch 2.4.1
@ Taliara
Speaking from my own experience (5/5 MH, 9/9 BT guild), with a first Illidan kill 10 days ago and 2nd kill today, I think I can safely say it depends mostly on your tanks' gear.
We only have 3 tanks in total in the guild (prot warrior, protadin and ferlol), so they all gear up quite quickly.
For example, when we just started MH/BT, threat was not much of an issue. Our MT (prot warrior) was wearing 4/5 T5, taking a fair amount of damage so plenty of rage to spend on abilities.
As his gear got better though, he started avoiding too much damage, lost the threat enhancing bonuses, and it gradually went down a bit. Still, he managed to keep up a steady 900ish TPS depending on how much both him and the boss were avoiding hits.
As a special note: we rarely use WF in his group, only at RoS really, as his threat is good enough on most other fights.
That said, the only fight where I've experienced a threat cap before 20%, is RoS. I can't comment on a fight like Teron much, as we decided to have our Protadin MT there, and he was putting out a steady 1200+ TPS there (gotta love demons + protadins).
Our MT has geared up quite a bit now though, getting the 4pc T6, and now he's back on a steady 1k+ TPS most of the time. Still, fights where I have lots of rage to spend, it can happen that I'm getting too close in the <20% area.
Archimonde has never really been a problem though, our MT has always managed to get above 1k TPS easily there, which works fine for me when you take Air Bursts etc. into account
It all depends on the fight and your/MT gear pretty much. And of course your MT has to have a bit of a clue so he spends his rage on useful stuff
Just my two cents.
P.S. Hi Qruz, update your EJ profile already slacker!
We only have 3 tanks in total in the guild (prot warrior, protadin and ferlol), so they all gear up quite quickly.
For example, when we just started MH/BT, threat was not much of an issue. Our MT (prot warrior) was wearing 4/5 T5, taking a fair amount of damage so plenty of rage to spend on abilities.
As his gear got better though, he started avoiding too much damage, lost the threat enhancing bonuses, and it gradually went down a bit. Still, he managed to keep up a steady 900ish TPS depending on how much both him and the boss were avoiding hits.
As a special note: we rarely use WF in his group, only at RoS really, as his threat is good enough on most other fights.
That said, the only fight where I've experienced a threat cap before 20%, is RoS. I can't comment on a fight like Teron much, as we decided to have our Protadin MT there, and he was putting out a steady 1200+ TPS there (gotta love demons + protadins).
Our MT has geared up quite a bit now though, getting the 4pc T6, and now he's back on a steady 1k+ TPS most of the time. Still, fights where I have lots of rage to spend, it can happen that I'm getting too close in the <20% area.
Archimonde has never really been a problem though, our MT has always managed to get above 1k TPS easily there, which works fine for me when you take Air Bursts etc. into account
It all depends on the fight and your/MT gear pretty much. And of course your MT has to have a bit of a clue so he spends his rage on useful stuff
Just my two cents.
P.S. Hi Qruz, update your EJ profile already slacker!
Last edited by Werelds : 05/11/08 at 6:01 PM. Reason: Added a title ;>
hi guys!
could you have a look at my gear?
Armory
i can take everything up to felmyst. (depends on dkp but we just killed him)
any possible upgrade? (not including t6, know they are )
here is our latest wws as well: WWS
my dps is rly low, around 2kish. if you can see anything from wws what i do wrong please tell me.
regards: Gaiwer
could you have a look at my gear?
Armory
i can take everything up to felmyst. (depends on dkp but we just killed him)
any possible upgrade? (not including t6, know they are
)here is our latest wws as well: WWS
my dps is rly low, around 2kish. if you can see anything from wws what i do wrong please tell me.
regards: Gaiwer
To Gaiwer:
Resocket to more strength. Get Teron cloak if you can. A slower offhand would yield 15-20 DPS increase. Get a [Shard of Contempt] and [Dragonspine Trophy] if you can (both are better trinkets).
Smaller upgrades: X-Bow from badges or throwable weapon from sunwell trash, Illidan ring. Yeah and of course the nice offhand from sunwell trash ([Mounting Vengeance]). Your WWS looks quite normal and right to me. So this are my tips for you. Edit: you specced in to execute ... according to spreadsheets 2% hit overall from precision would be a bit better.
Resocket to more strength. Get Teron cloak if you can. A slower offhand would yield 15-20 DPS increase. Get a [Shard of Contempt] and [Dragonspine Trophy] if you can (both are better trinkets).
Smaller upgrades: X-Bow from badges or throwable weapon from sunwell trash, Illidan ring. Yeah and of course the nice offhand from sunwell trash ([Mounting Vengeance]). Your WWS looks quite normal and right to me. So this are my tips for you.
Edit: you specced in to execute ... according to spreadsheets 2% hit overall from precision would be a bit better.|
Originally Posted by Gaiwer
hi guys!
could you have a look at my gear? Armory i can take everything up to felmyst. (depends on dkp but we just killed him) any possible upgrade? (not including t6, know they are )here is our latest wws as well: WWS my dps is rly low, around 2kish. if you can see anything from wws what i do wrong please tell me. regards: Gaiwer |
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Originally Posted by Kaan
To Gaiwer:
Edit: you specced in to execute ... according to spreadsheets 2% hit overall from precision would be a bit better. |
I have a question regarding best offhand enchant. I do realise it was probably discussed a lot, but couldn't find any info backed up with numbers on whether Mongoose, Executioner or Potency is best for offhand weapon. I am talking about endgame raiding here, so any opinions are welcome.
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Originally Posted by baphaa
I have a question regarding best offhand enchant. I do realise it was probably discussed a lot, but couldn't find any info backed up with numbers on whether Mongoose, Executioner or Potency is best for offhand weapon. I am talking about endgame raiding here, so any opinions are welcome.
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I've also seen people try Exec/Exec for increased uptime on executioner but I think they went back to Exec/Mongoose
also @Lode
I noticed you're using double ArP rings, choice or don't have Unstoppable's? I'm toying with going double ArP rings as 2h atm, might switch over to fury sometime in the future(well I'd like to, mainly for a change in playstyle)
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Originally Posted by Giantlol
also @Lode
I noticed you're using double ArP rings, choice or don't have Unstoppable's? I'm toying with going double ArP rings as 2h atm, might switch over to fury sometime in the future(well I'd like to, mainly for a change in playstyle) |
Your best bet? Go pick out a few WWS parses of your guild. Take every physical class' DPS and move 4% of it to your own DPS. If you can't do more than the number you come up with as Fury spec you're better off staying Arms.
Edited onPatch 2.4.1
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Originally Posted by LodeRunner
I do have the Gurtogg ring. Armor Penetration is just that good. I'd be using the Stormrage Signet if it dropped. As far as Fury vs 2hand, we have a Slam Warrior. If there was only one DPS Warrior spot in guild I'd be Slam for Blood Frenzy. If you're the only DPS Warrior you should probably stay Slam, because it's *usually* better overall for the raid. Of course, if you run a group that is super caster-heavy your mileage may vary.
Your best bet? Go pick out a few WWS parses of your guild. Take every physical class' DPS and move 4% of it to your own DPS. If you can't do more than the number you come up with as Fury spec you're better off staying Arms. |
I'd just like to go fury for some farm nights because I could fall asleep watching my swing timer, the big numbers aren't too infrequent. Need to quench my thirst for multiple big numbers! I think(judging by my guild raid compositions/WWS) that having BF is like adding 1 1/2 DPS to our raid, mainly because we have something like 3+ rogues, 2~3 hunters, etc.
As for ArP, really that great? I'm running something like 1480 or so in my PvE gear, having another ArP ring would take me straight to like 1600, but my problem there is that it'd really kick my crit, if Dreadboots would ever drop what I'd do is go with double pyrestones(though Lionseye look like they'd be better) and then regem my red belt(R.I.P double Spinel) with crit gems, because my crit is really failing me right now. I'd drop below 30% unbuffed if I used a second ArP ring. The reason I haven't regemmed my belt right now is because A)I use it for PvP ap stacking, and B)
two spinels, it feels like a huge waste, its been so bad that I've considered making a second red belt..but I doubt thats the way to go about it haha. So really the main debate is it worth dropping the crit to pick up more ArP? Spreadsheet wise ArP seems to come out on top in terms of stat:dps benefit, but having an atrocious crit rate drops my flurry uptime and such,so its really a throw up for me atm. I'll probably finalize my gear stuff when it actually drops I noticed your UB crit is absolutely nuts, mines pretty atrocious, and doesn't look like its gonna be getting better, actually I may have dropped below 30% crit already, picked up Leggings of Divine Retribution last week and upgraded from Vengeful :[ It puts me below the hit cap, so I'd like to pick up some hit pieces, but I'm not sure which I'm going to be able to/which would be best to grab, too much competition on offpieces
In a perfect world where I have doubles of some pieces, I'd do lionseye/seaspray in red belt, and then lionseye/pyrestone in my Dreadboots for a nice balance, but alas, our gem vendor hasn't been unlocked so no luck there.
Last edited by Giantlol : 05/12/08 at 2:48 PM.
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Originally Posted by Giantlol
As for ArP, really that great? I'm running something like 1480 or so in my PvE gear, having another ArP ring would take me straight to like 1600
I noticed your UB crit is absolutely nuts, mines pretty atrocious, and doesn't look like its gonna be getting better, actually I may have dropped below 30% crit already, picked up Leggings of Divine Retribution last week and upgraded from Vengeful |
2). Yeah, I got a little crit-crazy a few months back when I was frustrated with my Flurry uptime. I socketed many Lionseyes. For future gear upgrades I will be integrating more Spinels and Pyrestones.
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Originally Posted by Giantlol
I think Executioner/Mongoose is the accepted norm, I don't have numbers to back it up atm but I remember someone (maybe not on this forum, but probably was) doing some math for it.
I've also seen people try Exec/Exec for increased uptime on executioner but I think they went back to Exec/Mongoose also @Lode I noticed you're using double ArP rings, choice or don't have Unstoppable's? I'm toying with going double ArP rings as 2h atm, might switch over to fury sometime in the future(well I'd like to, mainly for a change in playstyle) |
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Originally Posted by Giantlol
but my problem there is that it'd really kick my crit
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(not sure if you are using pyrestones/spinels seeing as you are in pvp gear :P)
Hello everyone, this will be my first post in here :>
Last night i did my first brutallus attempts and kill (new guild). Problem was i didn't feel i was doing enough dps. Looking at my gear you may notice i'm lacking some essential pieces from bt (neck, back, gurtogg pants never seen drop of those in months of bt farming.)
Here is the wws report of the kill: Wow Web Stats
During the fight i had no problems with rage etc. Our group consisted of 2x rogues, me (fury warrior), retri pala and a resto shaman. I was chugging haste pots, timing cooldowns and doing my best, still only landing at 1666 dps made during the fight. We only had 1 drums of battle user in our group. Still i feel my dps should be higher!
Since i cannot figure out what i can do better i was hoping some of you guys could give me some ideas on how to improve, will better gear + enhancement shaman bring me up to the desired dps or am i just a bad dps'er? In BT/Hyjal i have always competed for top spots in in dmg meters, that was with my old guild tho.
Help a poor orc plz!
Last night i did my first brutallus attempts and kill (new guild). Problem was i didn't feel i was doing enough dps. Looking at my gear you may notice i'm lacking some essential pieces from bt (neck, back, gurtogg pants never seen drop of those in months of bt farming.)
Here is the wws report of the kill: Wow Web Stats
During the fight i had no problems with rage etc. Our group consisted of 2x rogues, me (fury warrior), retri pala and a resto shaman. I was chugging haste pots, timing cooldowns and doing my best, still only landing at 1666 dps made during the fight. We only had 1 drums of battle user in our group. Still i feel my dps should be higher!
Since i cannot figure out what i can do better i was hoping some of you guys could give me some ideas on how to improve, will better gear + enhancement shaman bring me up to the desired dps or am i just a bad dps'er? In BT/Hyjal i have always competed for top spots in in dmg meters, that was with my old guild tho.
Help a poor orc plz!
Looking at your WWS seems you got quite some parries there, at least 3 BT parried that quite huge loss.
You miss improved windfury, +10% AP from melee shaman and perhaps the strength totem? And as said before you have some parries and only 1 drums, and your equip isn't optimal as you said yourself.
So I think your dps is quite normal for the buffs and equip you have. What you're missing is equip and some support, I think.
So I think your dps is quite normal for the buffs and equip you have. What you're missing is equip and some support, I think.
Ohh shit my placement was really shitty i guess then. Was sure i was standing behind him so didn't even think about that.. Well there ya go.. Thanks for the help, i'll see if it goes better next week then :p
What is the optimal weapon speed for 2h DPS warriors in a raid?
Is slower still > faster?
Is slower still > faster?
Group composition?
I am just curious, who would benefit more from an Enhancement Shaman between a Fury Warrior or a Rogue?
Right now in my guild, we've got 1 Arms Warrior, 2 Fury Warrior's, 2 Rogue's, a Feral Druid, and an Enhancement Shaman.
Generally group makeup looks like the following:
Melee DPS Group#1:
-Enhancement Shaman
-Feral Druid
-Arms Warrior
-Rogue
-Rogue
Melee DPS Group#2
-Resto Shaman
-Fury Warrior
-Fury Warrior
-Misc.
-Misc.
My questions are:
1. Would it be wiser to have Fury Warrior's with the Enhancement Shaman over the Rogue's for overall DPS improvements? Or do they both benefit equal and not having one will cause similar DPS loss for both classes.
Our guild just started killing Illidan (3 kills so far...) -- but we've got our eyes on Sunwell and group synergy is a must.
Right now in my guild, we've got 1 Arms Warrior, 2 Fury Warrior's, 2 Rogue's, a Feral Druid, and an Enhancement Shaman.
Generally group makeup looks like the following:
Melee DPS Group#1:
-Enhancement Shaman
-Feral Druid
-Arms Warrior
-Rogue
-Rogue
Melee DPS Group#2
-Resto Shaman
-Fury Warrior
-Fury Warrior
-Misc.
-Misc.
My questions are:
1. Would it be wiser to have Fury Warrior's with the Enhancement Shaman over the Rogue's for overall DPS improvements? Or do they both benefit equal and not having one will cause similar DPS loss for both classes.
Our guild just started killing Illidan (3 kills so far...) -- but we've got our eyes on Sunwell and group synergy is a must.
Fury warriors benefit more vom enhancement shamans and windfury in particular. This is because warriors scale better with AP (from Unleashed Rage and imp. Winfury) and with Strength Totem. I would say rogues don't need WF that much because of poisons but I've seen they would also get WF from the resto shaman.
Slower is > faster if the stats and weapon dps are equal. Slower is even better when the stats are a bit worser than the faster weapon. But to give a few examples:
Soul Cleaver is inferior to Cataclysm's Edge because of worse DPS and Stats, though it has 0,2 slower weapon speed.
This is because slam isn't normalized thus perfectly scaling with weapon damage. MS and WW both scale with slower weapons aswell though they are normalized, but only from the higher regular weapon damage that is on slower weapons, not from the speed itself.
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What is the optimal weapon speed for 2h DPS warriors in a raid? Is slower still > faster? |
Soul Cleaver is inferior to Cataclysm's Edge because of worse DPS and Stats, though it has 0,2 slower weapon speed.
This is because slam isn't normalized thus perfectly scaling with weapon damage. MS and WW both scale with slower weapons aswell though they are normalized, but only from the higher regular weapon damage that is on slower weapons, not from the speed itself.
Doppler quick glance shows that you do pretty much ok for your gear/raid setup/consumables. In short - I usually end up around 2300 dps - my highest Bloodthirst crits are around 5200-5400 (that includes shard proc + BT during WF attack so im not sure... 650 extra ap?). Your highest crits are around 3600 - 2/3 of it, and your dps is actually higher then 2/3 of mine. Thats a very rough assessment but it suggest you are doing allright.
Lack of enh shaman contributed to that difference a lot (10% overall ap, and extra 40 or so on extra WF ap, better str totem etc).
Rest is in gear and raid buffs.
Lack of enh shaman contributed to that difference a lot (10% overall ap, and extra 40 or so on extra WF ap, better str totem etc).
Rest is in gear and raid buffs.
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Originally Posted by Webb
Where on earth does the last 3 haste buffs come from? What did i miss?
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This has probably been covered but I was unable to find information by searching for it.
My question is, how much of an issue is threat with T6 geared tanks for a fury warrior with both warglaives and the best possible gear from Hyjal/BT and the like. It is a question that was brought up and it was suggested that I ask here for an answer.
I believe it would be an issue with tanks in mostly Tier 5 and some partial Hyjal/BT gear, but I don't believe it would be as much of an issue with 4 piece Tier 6 and the best Hyajl/BT tank gear available.
Any information is greatly appreciated. Also, I apologize in advance if this was no the correct thread to ask this question in.
My question is, how much of an issue is threat with T6 geared tanks for a fury warrior with both warglaives and the best possible gear from Hyjal/BT and the like. It is a question that was brought up and it was suggested that I ask here for an answer.
I believe it would be an issue with tanks in mostly Tier 5 and some partial Hyjal/BT gear, but I don't believe it would be as much of an issue with 4 piece Tier 6 and the best Hyajl/BT tank gear available.
Any information is greatly appreciated. Also, I apologize in advance if this was no the correct thread to ask this question in.
It's always an issue, sadly. If tank cant do 1000+ TPS on average then a fully geared fury warr will definately be worrying about threat sub 20% when heroisms and recklessness and executes are thrown in to the cycle.
I would say Fury War in the Enchant Shaman group instead the Arms warrior as 10% AP will benefit more on bloodthirst and also high AP by Fury War.
However i prefer any war that willing to wear Solarian Saphire in the Melee group.
However i prefer any war that willing to wear Solarian Saphire in the Melee group.
It greatly depends on the fight, how much you have to worry about threat. Any fight where there are aggro wipes causes issues, for me anyway. However on a pure dps fight such as brutallus I only look at the threat meter the first 30 sec. After that I never come close to beeing threat capped, I can go full out and I have warglaives.
In general I dont have to worry that much about threat, not since they added the 10% extra threat reduced to improved berserker stance anyway.
In general I dont have to worry that much about threat, not since they added the 10% extra threat reduced to improved berserker stance anyway.
Edited onPatch 2.4.1
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Originally Posted by talliara
This has probably been covered but I was unable to find information by searching for it.
My question is, how much of an issue is threat with T6 geared tanks for a fury warrior with both warglaives and the best possible gear from Hyjal/BT and the like. It is a question that was brought up and it was suggested that I ask here for an answer. I believe it would be an issue with tanks in mostly Tier 5 and some partial Hyjal/BT gear, but I don't believe it would be as much of an issue with 4 piece Tier 6 and the best Hyajl/BT tank gear available. Any information is greatly appreciated. Also, I apologize in advance if this was no the correct thread to ask this question in. |
It depends alot on group setups, when your raid decides to take away your tanks WF or his shaman dies on Teron then you're fucked. I was for the first time ever threat capped on Teron this reset (with Tranquil Air) and I've experienced the threat cap on all four first fights in sunwell (using Tranquil Air on both Felmyst and Twins), to a greater and lesser extent ofcourse. Your threat is ofcourse alot higher on demons, so expect atleast Anetheron and Archimonde to be problems aswell. I tend to cut or even fully stop using heroics at 40% just to allow myself to make my executing as efficient as possible.
Last edited by Qruz : 05/11/08 at 8:38 AM.
Edited onPatch 2.4.1
@ Taliara
Speaking from my own experience (5/5 MH, 9/9 BT guild), with a first Illidan kill 10 days ago and 2nd kill today, I think I can safely say it depends mostly on your tanks' gear.
We only have 3 tanks in total in the guild (prot warrior, protadin and ferlol), so they all gear up quite quickly.
For example, when we just started MH/BT, threat was not much of an issue. Our MT (prot warrior) was wearing 4/5 T5, taking a fair amount of damage so plenty of rage to spend on abilities.
As his gear got better though, he started avoiding too much damage, lost the threat enhancing bonuses, and it gradually went down a bit. Still, he managed to keep up a steady 900ish TPS depending on how much both him and the boss were avoiding hits.
As a special note: we rarely use WF in his group, only at RoS really, as his threat is good enough on most other fights.
That said, the only fight where I've experienced a threat cap before 20%, is RoS. I can't comment on a fight like Teron much, as we decided to have our Protadin MT there, and he was putting out a steady 1200+ TPS there (gotta love demons + protadins).
Our MT has geared up quite a bit now though, getting the 4pc T6, and now he's back on a steady 1k+ TPS most of the time. Still, fights where I have lots of rage to spend, it can happen that I'm getting too close in the <20% area.
Archimonde has never really been a problem though, our MT has always managed to get above 1k TPS easily there, which works fine for me when you take Air Bursts etc. into account
It all depends on the fight and your/MT gear pretty much. And of course your MT has to have a bit of a clue so he spends his rage on useful stuff
Just my two cents.
P.S. Hi Qruz, update your EJ profile already slacker!
We only have 3 tanks in total in the guild (prot warrior, protadin and ferlol), so they all gear up quite quickly.
For example, when we just started MH/BT, threat was not much of an issue. Our MT (prot warrior) was wearing 4/5 T5, taking a fair amount of damage so plenty of rage to spend on abilities.
As his gear got better though, he started avoiding too much damage, lost the threat enhancing bonuses, and it gradually went down a bit. Still, he managed to keep up a steady 900ish TPS depending on how much both him and the boss were avoiding hits.
As a special note: we rarely use WF in his group, only at RoS really, as his threat is good enough on most other fights.
That said, the only fight where I've experienced a threat cap before 20%, is RoS. I can't comment on a fight like Teron much, as we decided to have our Protadin MT there, and he was putting out a steady 1200+ TPS there (gotta love demons + protadins).
Our MT has geared up quite a bit now though, getting the 4pc T6, and now he's back on a steady 1k+ TPS most of the time. Still, fights where I have lots of rage to spend, it can happen that I'm getting too close in the <20% area.
Archimonde has never really been a problem though, our MT has always managed to get above 1k TPS easily there, which works fine for me when you take Air Bursts etc. into account
It all depends on the fight and your/MT gear pretty much. And of course your MT has to have a bit of a clue so he spends his rage on useful stuff
Just my two cents.
P.S. Hi Qruz, update your EJ profile already slacker!
Last edited by Werelds : 05/11/08 at 6:01 PM. Reason: Added a title ;>
hi guys!
could you have a look at my gear?
Armory
i can take everything up to felmyst. (depends on dkp but we just killed him)
any possible upgrade? (not including t6, know they are )
here is our latest wws as well: WWS
my dps is rly low, around 2kish. if you can see anything from wws what i do wrong please tell me.
regards: Gaiwer
could you have a look at my gear?
Armory
i can take everything up to felmyst. (depends on dkp but we just killed him)
any possible upgrade? (not including t6, know they are
)here is our latest wws as well: WWS
my dps is rly low, around 2kish. if you can see anything from wws what i do wrong please tell me.
regards: Gaiwer
To Gaiwer:
Resocket to more strength. Get Teron cloak if you can. A slower offhand would yield 15-20 DPS increase. Get a [Shard of Contempt] and [Dragonspine Trophy] if you can (both are better trinkets).
Smaller upgrades: X-Bow from badges or throwable weapon from sunwell trash, Illidan ring. Yeah and of course the nice offhand from sunwell trash ([Mounting Vengeance]). Your WWS looks quite normal and right to me. So this are my tips for you. Edit: you specced in to execute ... according to spreadsheets 2% hit overall from precision would be a bit better.
Resocket to more strength. Get Teron cloak if you can. A slower offhand would yield 15-20 DPS increase. Get a [Shard of Contempt] and [Dragonspine Trophy] if you can (both are better trinkets).
Smaller upgrades: X-Bow from badges or throwable weapon from sunwell trash, Illidan ring. Yeah and of course the nice offhand from sunwell trash ([Mounting Vengeance]). Your WWS looks quite normal and right to me. So this are my tips for you.
Edit: you specced in to execute ... according to spreadsheets 2% hit overall from precision would be a bit better.|
Originally Posted by Gaiwer
hi guys!
could you have a look at my gear? Armory i can take everything up to felmyst. (depends on dkp but we just killed him) any possible upgrade? (not including t6, know they are )here is our latest wws as well: WWS my dps is rly low, around 2kish. if you can see anything from wws what i do wrong please tell me. regards: Gaiwer |
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Originally Posted by Kaan
To Gaiwer:
Edit: you specced in to execute ... according to spreadsheets 2% hit overall from precision would be a bit better. |
I have a question regarding best offhand enchant. I do realise it was probably discussed a lot, but couldn't find any info backed up with numbers on whether Mongoose, Executioner or Potency is best for offhand weapon. I am talking about endgame raiding here, so any opinions are welcome.
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Originally Posted by baphaa
I have a question regarding best offhand enchant. I do realise it was probably discussed a lot, but couldn't find any info backed up with numbers on whether Mongoose, Executioner or Potency is best for offhand weapon. I am talking about endgame raiding here, so any opinions are welcome.
|
I've also seen people try Exec/Exec for increased uptime on executioner but I think they went back to Exec/Mongoose
also @Lode
I noticed you're using double ArP rings, choice or don't have Unstoppable's? I'm toying with going double ArP rings as 2h atm, might switch over to fury sometime in the future(well I'd like to, mainly for a change in playstyle)
|
Originally Posted by Giantlol
also @Lode
I noticed you're using double ArP rings, choice or don't have Unstoppable's? I'm toying with going double ArP rings as 2h atm, might switch over to fury sometime in the future(well I'd like to, mainly for a change in playstyle) |
Your best bet? Go pick out a few WWS parses of your guild. Take every physical class' DPS and move 4% of it to your own DPS. If you can't do more than the number you come up with as Fury spec you're better off staying Arms.
Edited onPatch 2.4.1
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Originally Posted by LodeRunner
I do have the Gurtogg ring. Armor Penetration is just that good. I'd be using the Stormrage Signet if it dropped. As far as Fury vs 2hand, we have a Slam Warrior. If there was only one DPS Warrior spot in guild I'd be Slam for Blood Frenzy. If you're the only DPS Warrior you should probably stay Slam, because it's *usually* better overall for the raid. Of course, if you run a group that is super caster-heavy your mileage may vary.
Your best bet? Go pick out a few WWS parses of your guild. Take every physical class' DPS and move 4% of it to your own DPS. If you can't do more than the number you come up with as Fury spec you're better off staying Arms. |
I'd just like to go fury for some farm nights because I could fall asleep watching my swing timer, the big numbers aren't too infrequent. Need to quench my thirst for multiple big numbers! I think(judging by my guild raid compositions/WWS) that having BF is like adding 1 1/2 DPS to our raid, mainly because we have something like 3+ rogues, 2~3 hunters, etc.
As for ArP, really that great? I'm running something like 1480 or so in my PvE gear, having another ArP ring would take me straight to like 1600, but my problem there is that it'd really kick my crit, if Dreadboots would ever drop what I'd do is go with double pyrestones(though Lionseye look like they'd be better) and then regem my red belt(R.I.P double Spinel) with crit gems, because my crit is really failing me right now. I'd drop below 30% unbuffed if I used a second ArP ring. The reason I haven't regemmed my belt right now is because A)I use it for PvP ap stacking, and B)
two spinels, it feels like a huge waste, its been so bad that I've considered making a second red belt..but I doubt thats the way to go about it haha. So really the main debate is it worth dropping the crit to pick up more ArP? Spreadsheet wise ArP seems to come out on top in terms of stat:dps benefit, but having an atrocious crit rate drops my flurry uptime and such,so its really a throw up for me atm. I'll probably finalize my gear stuff when it actually drops I noticed your UB crit is absolutely nuts, mines pretty atrocious, and doesn't look like its gonna be getting better, actually I may have dropped below 30% crit already, picked up Leggings of Divine Retribution last week and upgraded from Vengeful :[ It puts me below the hit cap, so I'd like to pick up some hit pieces, but I'm not sure which I'm going to be able to/which would be best to grab, too much competition on offpieces
In a perfect world where I have doubles of some pieces, I'd do lionseye/seaspray in red belt, and then lionseye/pyrestone in my Dreadboots for a nice balance, but alas, our gem vendor hasn't been unlocked so no luck there.
Last edited by Giantlol : 05/12/08 at 2:48 PM.
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Originally Posted by Giantlol
As for ArP, really that great? I'm running something like 1480 or so in my PvE gear, having another ArP ring would take me straight to like 1600
I noticed your UB crit is absolutely nuts, mines pretty atrocious, and doesn't look like its gonna be getting better, actually I may have dropped below 30% crit already, picked up Leggings of Divine Retribution last week and upgraded from Vengeful |
2). Yeah, I got a little crit-crazy a few months back when I was frustrated with my Flurry uptime. I socketed many Lionseyes. For future gear upgrades I will be integrating more Spinels and Pyrestones.
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Originally Posted by Giantlol
I think Executioner/Mongoose is the accepted norm, I don't have numbers to back it up atm but I remember someone (maybe not on this forum, but probably was) doing some math for it.
I've also seen people try Exec/Exec for increased uptime on executioner but I think they went back to Exec/Mongoose also @Lode I noticed you're using double ArP rings, choice or don't have Unstoppable's? I'm toying with going double ArP rings as 2h atm, might switch over to fury sometime in the future(well I'd like to, mainly for a change in playstyle) |
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Originally Posted by Giantlol
but my problem there is that it'd really kick my crit
|
(not sure if you are using pyrestones/spinels seeing as you are in pvp gear :P)
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Originally Posted by Kaan
To Gaiwer:
Resocket to more strength. Get Teron cloak if you can. A slower offhand would yield 15-20 DPS increase. Get a [Shard of Contempt] and [Dragonspine Trophy] if you can (both are better trinkets). Smaller upgrades: X-Bow from badges or throwable weapon from sunwell trash, Illidan ring. Yeah and of course the nice offhand from sunwell trash ([Mounting Vengeance]). Your WWS looks quite normal and right to me. So this are my tips for you.  Edit: you specced in to execute ... according to spreadsheets 2% hit overall from precision would be a bit better. |
Edited onPatch 2.4.1
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Originally Posted by Kaoz
The spreadsheet I use favors executioner in OH past a certain gear level which is around mid BT. Is the sheet known to be wrong or something?
|
Also I've been running dual executioner mostly since it became available, and I'm not really sure what to do with that. On our first Brutallus kills I had something stupid like 26 executioner procs according to WWS. Our other fury warriors had around 8 executioner procs + 3 mongoose procs. I'd imagine many of my procs overlapped, but I've kinda stopped worrying about which setup is better. Also I had Dragonstrike and they did not, so I'm unsure of what that does to my procs. I think from what I have read, proc rate changes as I gain or lose haste proc, but it's sure hard to explain the ridiculous amount of additional exec procs I get compared to our other warriors. I'm not aware of any solid answer about what is better in regards to exec/exec vs exec/mong.
Last edited by scoTTy : 05/12/08 at 5:01 PM.
Crit wont surpass Str in value (for Fury PvE dps) until your AP becomes very large.
Even if your crit is very low, stacking more str is still goign to be better until a very high gear level.
Even if your crit is very low, stacking more str is still goign to be better until a very high gear level.
Crit surpasses Str with end-BT-gear.
The jury is still out on whats better, crit or strength. Landsouls spreadsheet and grims spreadsheet have near identical values for expertise, arp ect. But Grims spreadsheet values strength as 90% of crit. And landsouls spreadsheet values crit as 90% of strength. The reason for this is how execute is modelled. Although no definitive model has yet been done of execute mechanics, as it is so complicated and their are so many variables to consider.
My suggestion would be this. If you feel your crit is low, socket crit. If not, socket strength, or go for pyrestones. Its that simple
My suggestion would be this. If you feel your crit is low, socket crit. If not, socket strength, or go for pyrestones. Its that simple
Edited onPatch 2.4.1
And my suggestion is, stay at 36% crit fullbuffed / full raiddebuffed boss, to have about 33% crit against a boss. Each third hit will be a crit then, so having a nice flurry uptime and possibly spending the remaining stats in strength would be optimal, at least for me. At over 33% crit, the diminishing returns on flurry uptime increases hardly (read this anywhere here on EJ forums).
Executioner / Mungo is the way to go ... landsoul's sheet has offhand Exec modeled, Grim's too, both show a clearly decrease in DPS compared to Exec/Mungo.
Crit won't surpass Strength in any time. With proper sunwell items your crit will be like 40-45% with normal raidbuffs (no LOTP), so having hard diminishing returns on it. Strength on the other side provides a lot more to bloodthirst and improved zerker stance. Strength is a safer stat too, because it increases damage on every hit, crit is sorta lucky.
edit: grammar.
Executioner / Mungo is the way to go ... landsoul's sheet has offhand Exec modeled, Grim's too, both show a clearly decrease in DPS compared to Exec/Mungo.
Crit won't surpass Strength in any time. With proper sunwell items your crit will be like 40-45% with normal raidbuffs (no LOTP), so having hard diminishing returns on it. Strength on the other side provides a lot more to bloodthirst and improved zerker stance. Strength is a safer stat too, because it increases damage on every hit, crit is sorta lucky.
edit: grammar.
Last edited by Kaan : 05/12/08 at 11:17 PM.
| With proper sunwell items your crit will be like 40-45% with normal raidbuffs (no LOTP) |
I wouldn't say my gear is amazing, but raid buffed I'm sitting at 38.xx% crit (with LotP though, without Mongoose up), which gives me a 90-95% uptime flurry, rarely runs off.
Has anyone done any further testing with dual Dragonstrikes? Last person who tested didn't get it to stack anymore, which would be a shame, as it seemed to me it would've been the ultimate combination pre-glaives.
Has anyone done any further testing with dual Dragonstrikes? Last person who tested didn't get it to stack anymore, which would be a shame, as it seemed to me it would've been the ultimate combination pre-glaives.
For me gemming crit or Str is base on your usual group makeup. Some guild can have a feral druid in the melee dps group (due to lack of rogue and dps war) and possibly a Ret pally makin an extra 8% crit in raid buff. Also if you have Enchant shaman that can constantly do Totem Twisting (GoA and WF) i would say gem for str is better than crit in this case.
There's no way you will get 90-95% uptime with flurry from a 38% crit rate. It may spike to that if you get lucky, but using the formula below, you can approximate your uptime:
(1-Critrate)^x
where x is the number of attacks that flurry lasts for. For 3 attacks (assuming no instants during the proc), and a 38.5% crit rate, this will give a 23% chance to have 3 non-crit attacks in a row, thereby allowing flurry to fall off. For 4, this gives a 14% chance. Due to the cooldown of BT and WW, I would guess that 'x' would be somewhere around 3.2 (assuming 2 x 2.6 speed weapons, no haste buffs except flurry. With haste buffs, or faster weapons, this value of x would get lower).
Anyway, using these calculations, at x=3.2, flurry uptime would be around 79%.
(1-Critrate)^x
where x is the number of attacks that flurry lasts for. For 3 attacks (assuming no instants during the proc), and a 38.5% crit rate, this will give a 23% chance to have 3 non-crit attacks in a row, thereby allowing flurry to fall off. For 4, this gives a 14% chance. Due to the cooldown of BT and WW, I would guess that 'x' would be somewhere around 3.2 (assuming 2 x 2.6 speed weapons, no haste buffs except flurry. With haste buffs, or faster weapons, this value of x would get lower).
Anyway, using these calculations, at x=3.2, flurry uptime would be around 79%.
|
Originally Posted by Crimsonstorm
I think Dragonstrike should stack, and wouldnt be broken if it did, because its worse in the OH than the Badge fist which costs only 45 badges, because the OH doesnt proc nearly as much.
|
As I'm already a committed 375 Macesmith with one Dragonmaw who is nowhere near the level of optimized progression raiding, I may well make them anyway at some point.
Looking for a confirmation on whether or not the procs still stack now that this patch has gone live. I remember reading reports earlier that it had been changed.
Edited onPatch 2.4.2
|
Originally Posted by Graul
No it won't.
|
| The spreadsheet report on Double Dragonstrike is not complete because spreadsheets cannot do permutations. Most significantly, it cannot model the stacking proc that produced Warglaive level haste. That makes an enormous difference. |
Last edited by Kaan : 05/13/08 at 2:02 PM.
Edited onPatch 2.4.2
Well I just tested dw dragonstrike/dragonmaw on live and the haste effect didn't stack, just renewed it. Spent 15 minutes on a servant in BL, The quickest my attack speed went down to was 1.9 from 2.7 (flurry + haste proc)
Admittedly that is not 2 Dragonstrikes, but the buff is identical. Just an FYI.
Admittedly that is not 2 Dragonstrikes, but the buff is identical. Just an FYI.
Last edited by Gellor : 05/13/08 at 3:39 PM.
I also crafted one because I had the gold kicking around. The haste proc rarely falls off -- but even with that being the case, i'm not sure how it would stack up to the DPS of 2x103.1 (Season 3) or 2x103.0 (Badge Fists). =/
even if the buffs dont stack - but just refresh - double dragonstrike is looking awfully attactive for warriors...
According to spreadsheet, if the uptime of the buff is 60%, then the double dragonstrike combo is actually better than s3 + mounting vengeance.
somebody should definitely do some testruns to determine the actual uptime.
According to spreadsheet, if the uptime of the buff is 60%, then the double dragonstrike combo is actually better than s3 + mounting vengeance.
somebody should definitely do some testruns to determine the actual uptime.
Hi guys, looking for some input with itemization over here - I'm below hit cap for 2H at the moment, and I was wondering what I can do about it. I suppose regemming is a possibility, and I also have the [Stormrage Signet Ring]. Should I regem for some hit, and/or switch one of the rings to Stormrage? I'd hate to lose the crit but misses can really screw up my rotations on low-rage bosses like Brutallus.
Also, at what point is crit worse than armor penetration? I'm currently at ~1200-ish armor pen, and going below 32% crit really hurts flurry uptime.
Also, at what point is crit worse than armor penetration? I'm currently at ~1200-ish armor pen, and going below 32% crit really hurts flurry uptime.
Edited onPatch 2.4.2
Well, if I assume a ppm of 1.4 and that each proc will give 4 hasted swings (in reality it's 4.2 swings) I get an uptime of 35% for dual DS with overwriting buffs. I calculated it using a quick and dirty python script over 1000 swings and only using white swings. Specials will complicate things quite a lot in my script so I don't have time to add them, but they will of course make the uptime go up a bit, maybe up towards 40+%, but I don't think it's very likely that you will reach 60% uptime.
edit: NB, the script also assumes 0% miss/dodges, i.e. all swings can proc, and no WF.
edit: NB, the script also assumes 0% miss/dodges, i.e. all swings can proc, and no WF.
Last edited by Gruntle : 05/14/08 at 7:37 AM.
|
Originally Posted by dahakon
Hi guys, looking for some input with itemization over here - I'm below hit cap for 2H at the moment, and I was wondering what I can do about it. I suppose regemming is a possibility, and I also have the [Stormrage Signet Ring]. Should I regem for some hit, and/or switch one of the rings to Stormrage? I'd hate to lose the crit but misses can really screw up my rotations on low-rage bosses like Brutallus.
Also, at what point is crit worse than armor penetration? I'm currently at ~1200-ish armor pen, and going below 32% crit really hurts flurry uptime. |
|
Originally Posted by Kaan
I would switch the Unstoppable Aggressor's Ring with Stormrage Signet Ring. The ring is anyway the best except for sunwell rings.
|
To my knowledge Stormrage Signet Ring and the Ring of Ruinious Delight is the best ring combo in the game, or have there been any recent loot table descoveries of rings?
The illidan-ring wastes to much item value for hit. the best combo ist badge-ring/twins-ring in my opinion.
|
Originally Posted by np|Georgious
The illidan-ring wastes to much item value for hit. the best combo ist badge-ring/twins-ring in my opinion.
|
Indeed, I'm having trouble hit capping even when I use Illidari Shatterer, and I'll definitely see more once I replace my gloves(if I ever do) with Immortal Dusk and chest with the BSing one, hit is definitely one of the harder stats to come by, but once our Moonkin is able to play his druid consistently in raids(i.e. on Illidan,etc) I should be fine on hit. That 3% hit FF gives you a lot of room to play with your gear, I'm messing around with a new set up for tonight, but I'll likely have to swap back to my usual set up for Illidans 
All in all that was meant to say, Stormrage signet ring is absolutely amazing for warriors
All in all that was meant to say, Stormrage signet ring is absolutely amazing for warriors
Edited onPatch 2.4.2
Resocketing for hit and getting a [Hard Khorium Band] will be more DPS than wearing [Stormrage Signet Ring]. But everyone seems to be hell-bent against resocketing, even when it's a DPS upgrade. If you're below hit cap and you have sockets which are not hit gems, you're doing it wrong. A fully utilized [Rigid Dawnstone] is more DPS than [Smooth Lionseye].
-edit-
Sorry Giantlol, with this post coming right after yours, I realized this could seem like a personal attack, but it really wasn't meant that way >_>
-edit-
Sorry Giantlol, with this post coming right after yours, I realized this could seem like a personal attack, but it really wasn't meant that way >_>
Last edited by Grayson Carlyle : 05/14/08 at 1:25 PM.
Most Warriors going from BT gear to Sunwell probably lost about 80 or so hit, your mileage may vary.
The difference is we all also probably have gained 17 expertise now as well(Assuming Shard/Onslaught Belt). So you have a nice 4.25% cushion(68ish hit rating) and you most likely won't notice a massive drop off until you dip below say 140 or so, in terms of rage generation at least.
The difference is we all also probably have gained 17 expertise now as well(Assuming Shard/Onslaught Belt). So you have a nice 4.25% cushion(68ish hit rating) and you most likely won't notice a massive drop off until you dip below say 140 or so, in terms of rage generation at least.
|
Originally Posted by Kaan
To Gaiwer:
Resocket to more strength. Get Teron cloak if you can. A slower offhand would yield 15-20 DPS increase. Get a [Shard of Contempt] and [Dragonspine Trophy] if you can (both are better trinkets). Smaller upgrades: X-Bow from badges or throwable weapon from sunwell trash, Illidan ring. Yeah and of course the nice offhand from sunwell trash ([Mounting Vengeance]). Your WWS looks quite normal and right to me. So this are my tips for you. Edit: you specced in to execute ... according to spreadsheets 2% hit overall from precision would be a bit better. |
Edited onPatch 2.4.1
|
Originally Posted by Kaoz
The spreadsheet I use favors executioner in OH past a certain gear level which is around mid BT. Is the sheet known to be wrong or something?
|
Also I've been running dual executioner mostly since it became available, and I'm not really sure what to do with that. On our first Brutallus kills I had something stupid like 26 executioner procs according to WWS. Our other fury warriors had around 8 executioner procs + 3 mongoose procs. I'd imagine many of my procs overlapped, but I've kinda stopped worrying about which setup is better. Also I had Dragonstrike and they did not, so I'm unsure of what that does to my procs. I think from what I have read, proc rate changes as I gain or lose haste proc, but it's sure hard to explain the ridiculous amount of additional exec procs I get compared to our other warriors. I'm not aware of any solid answer about what is better in regards to exec/exec vs exec/mong.
Last edited by scoTTy : 05/12/08 at 5:01 PM.
Crit wont surpass Str in value (for Fury PvE dps) until your AP becomes very large.
Even if your crit is very low, stacking more str is still goign to be better until a very high gear level.
Even if your crit is very low, stacking more str is still goign to be better until a very high gear level.
Crit surpasses Str with end-BT-gear.
The jury is still out on whats better, crit or strength. Landsouls spreadsheet and grims spreadsheet have near identical values for expertise, arp ect. But Grims spreadsheet values strength as 90% of crit. And landsouls spreadsheet values crit as 90% of strength. The reason for this is how execute is modelled. Although no definitive model has yet been done of execute mechanics, as it is so complicated and their are so many variables to consider.
My suggestion would be this. If you feel your crit is low, socket crit. If not, socket strength, or go for pyrestones. Its that simple
My suggestion would be this. If you feel your crit is low, socket crit. If not, socket strength, or go for pyrestones. Its that simple
Edited onPatch 2.4.1
And my suggestion is, stay at 36% crit fullbuffed / full raiddebuffed boss, to have about 33% crit against a boss. Each third hit will be a crit then, so having a nice flurry uptime and possibly spending the remaining stats in strength would be optimal, at least for me. At over 33% crit, the diminishing returns on flurry uptime increases hardly (read this anywhere here on EJ forums).
Executioner / Mungo is the way to go ... landsoul's sheet has offhand Exec modeled, Grim's too, both show a clearly decrease in DPS compared to Exec/Mungo.
Crit won't surpass Strength in any time. With proper sunwell items your crit will be like 40-45% with normal raidbuffs (no LOTP), so having hard diminishing returns on it. Strength on the other side provides a lot more to bloodthirst and improved zerker stance. Strength is a safer stat too, because it increases damage on every hit, crit is sorta lucky.
edit: grammar.
Executioner / Mungo is the way to go ... landsoul's sheet has offhand Exec modeled, Grim's too, both show a clearly decrease in DPS compared to Exec/Mungo.
Crit won't surpass Strength in any time. With proper sunwell items your crit will be like 40-45% with normal raidbuffs (no LOTP), so having hard diminishing returns on it. Strength on the other side provides a lot more to bloodthirst and improved zerker stance. Strength is a safer stat too, because it increases damage on every hit, crit is sorta lucky.
edit: grammar.
Last edited by Kaan : 05/12/08 at 11:17 PM.
| With proper sunwell items your crit will be like 40-45% with normal raidbuffs (no LOTP) |
I wouldn't say my gear is amazing, but raid buffed I'm sitting at 38.xx% crit (with LotP though, without Mongoose up), which gives me a 90-95% uptime flurry, rarely runs off.
Has anyone done any further testing with dual Dragonstrikes? Last person who tested didn't get it to stack anymore, which would be a shame, as it seemed to me it would've been the ultimate combination pre-glaives.
Has anyone done any further testing with dual Dragonstrikes? Last person who tested didn't get it to stack anymore, which would be a shame, as it seemed to me it would've been the ultimate combination pre-glaives.
For me gemming crit or Str is base on your usual group makeup. Some guild can have a feral druid in the melee dps group (due to lack of rogue and dps war) and possibly a Ret pally makin an extra 8% crit in raid buff. Also if you have Enchant shaman that can constantly do Totem Twisting (GoA and WF) i would say gem for str is better than crit in this case.
There's no way you will get 90-95% uptime with flurry from a 38% crit rate. It may spike to that if you get lucky, but using the formula below, you can approximate your uptime:
(1-Critrate)^x
where x is the number of attacks that flurry lasts for. For 3 attacks (assuming no instants during the proc), and a 38.5% crit rate, this will give a 23% chance to have 3 non-crit attacks in a row, thereby allowing flurry to fall off. For 4, this gives a 14% chance. Due to the cooldown of BT and WW, I would guess that 'x' would be somewhere around 3.2 (assuming 2 x 2.6 speed weapons, no haste buffs except flurry. With haste buffs, or faster weapons, this value of x would get lower).
Anyway, using these calculations, at x=3.2, flurry uptime would be around 79%.
(1-Critrate)^x
where x is the number of attacks that flurry lasts for. For 3 attacks (assuming no instants during the proc), and a 38.5% crit rate, this will give a 23% chance to have 3 non-crit attacks in a row, thereby allowing flurry to fall off. For 4, this gives a 14% chance. Due to the cooldown of BT and WW, I would guess that 'x' would be somewhere around 3.2 (assuming 2 x 2.6 speed weapons, no haste buffs except flurry. With haste buffs, or faster weapons, this value of x would get lower).
Anyway, using these calculations, at x=3.2, flurry uptime would be around 79%.
|
Originally Posted by Crimsonstorm
I think Dragonstrike should stack, and wouldnt be broken if it did, because its worse in the OH than the Badge fist which costs only 45 badges, because the OH doesnt proc nearly as much.
|
As I'm already a committed 375 Macesmith with one Dragonmaw who is nowhere near the level of optimized progression raiding, I may well make them anyway at some point.
Looking for a confirmation on whether or not the procs still stack now that this patch has gone live. I remember reading reports earlier that it had been changed.
Edited onPatch 2.4.2
|
Originally Posted by Graul
No it won't.
|
| The spreadsheet report on Double Dragonstrike is not complete because spreadsheets cannot do permutations. Most significantly, it cannot model the stacking proc that produced Warglaive level haste. That makes an enormous difference. |
Last edited by Kaan : 05/13/08 at 2:02 PM.
Edited onPatch 2.4.2
Well I just tested dw dragonstrike/dragonmaw on live and the haste effect didn't stack, just renewed it. Spent 15 minutes on a servant in BL, The quickest my attack speed went down to was 1.9 from 2.7 (flurry + haste proc)
Admittedly that is not 2 Dragonstrikes, but the buff is identical. Just an FYI.
Admittedly that is not 2 Dragonstrikes, but the buff is identical. Just an FYI.
Last edited by Gellor : 05/13/08 at 3:39 PM.
I also crafted one because I had the gold kicking around. The haste proc rarely falls off -- but even with that being the case, i'm not sure how it would stack up to the DPS of 2x103.1 (Season 3) or 2x103.0 (Badge Fists). =/
even if the buffs dont stack - but just refresh - double dragonstrike is looking awfully attactive for warriors...
According to spreadsheet, if the uptime of the buff is 60%, then the double dragonstrike combo is actually better than s3 + mounting vengeance.
somebody should definitely do some testruns to determine the actual uptime.
According to spreadsheet, if the uptime of the buff is 60%, then the double dragonstrike combo is actually better than s3 + mounting vengeance.
somebody should definitely do some testruns to determine the actual uptime.
Hi guys, looking for some input with itemization over here - I'm below hit cap for 2H at the moment, and I was wondering what I can do about it. I suppose regemming is a possibility, and I also have the [Stormrage Signet Ring]. Should I regem for some hit, and/or switch one of the rings to Stormrage? I'd hate to lose the crit but misses can really screw up my rotations on low-rage bosses like Brutallus.
Also, at what point is crit worse than armor penetration? I'm currently at ~1200-ish armor pen, and going below 32% crit really hurts flurry uptime.
Also, at what point is crit worse than armor penetration? I'm currently at ~1200-ish armor pen, and going below 32% crit really hurts flurry uptime.
Edited onPatch 2.4.2
Well, if I assume a ppm of 1.4 and that each proc will give 4 hasted swings (in reality it's 4.2 swings) I get an uptime of 35% for dual DS with overwriting buffs. I calculated it using a quick and dirty python script over 1000 swings and only using white swings. Specials will complicate things quite a lot in my script so I don't have time to add them, but they will of course make the uptime go up a bit, maybe up towards 40+%, but I don't think it's very likely that you will reach 60% uptime.
edit: NB, the script also assumes 0% miss/dodges, i.e. all swings can proc, and no WF.
edit: NB, the script also assumes 0% miss/dodges, i.e. all swings can proc, and no WF.
Last edited by Gruntle : 05/14/08 at 7:37 AM.
|
Originally Posted by dahakon
Hi guys, looking for some input with itemization over here - I'm below hit cap for 2H at the moment, and I was wondering what I can do about it. I suppose regemming is a possibility, and I also have the [Stormrage Signet Ring]. Should I regem for some hit, and/or switch one of the rings to Stormrage? I'd hate to lose the crit but misses can really screw up my rotations on low-rage bosses like Brutallus.
Also, at what point is crit worse than armor penetration? I'm currently at ~1200-ish armor pen, and going below 32% crit really hurts flurry uptime. |
|
Originally Posted by Kaan
I would switch the Unstoppable Aggressor's Ring with Stormrage Signet Ring. The ring is anyway the best except for sunwell rings.
|
To my knowledge Stormrage Signet Ring and the Ring of Ruinious Delight is the best ring combo in the game, or have there been any recent loot table descoveries of rings?
The illidan-ring wastes to much item value for hit. the best combo ist badge-ring/twins-ring in my opinion.
|
Originally Posted by np|Georgious
The illidan-ring wastes to much item value for hit. the best combo ist badge-ring/twins-ring in my opinion.
|
Indeed, I'm having trouble hit capping even when I use Illidari Shatterer, and I'll definitely see more once I replace my gloves(if I ever do) with Immortal Dusk and chest with the BSing one, hit is definitely one of the harder stats to come by, but once our Moonkin is able to play his druid consistently in raids(i.e. on Illidan,etc) I should be fine on hit. That 3% hit FF gives you a lot of room to play with your gear, I'm messing around with a new set up for tonight, but I'll likely have to swap back to my usual set up for Illidans
All in all that was meant to say, Stormrage signet ring is absolutely amazing for warriors
All in all that was meant to say, Stormrage signet ring is absolutely amazing for warriors
Edited onPatch 2.4.2
Resocketing for hit and getting a [Hard Khorium Band] will be more DPS than wearing [Stormrage Signet Ring]. But everyone seems to be hell-bent against resocketing, even when it's a DPS upgrade. If you're below hit cap and you have sockets which are not hit gems, you're doing it wrong. A fully utilized [Rigid Dawnstone] is more DPS than [Smooth Lionseye].
-edit-
Sorry Giantlol, with this post coming right after yours, I realized this could seem like a personal attack, but it really wasn't meant that way >_>
-edit-
Sorry Giantlol, with this post coming right after yours, I realized this could seem like a personal attack, but it really wasn't meant that way >_>
Last edited by Grayson Carlyle : 05/14/08 at 1:25 PM.
Most Warriors going from BT gear to Sunwell probably lost about 80 or so hit, your mileage may vary.
The difference is we all also probably have gained 17 expertise now as well(Assuming Shard/Onslaught Belt). So you have a nice 4.25% cushion(68ish hit rating) and you most likely won't notice a massive drop off until you dip below say 140 or so, in terms of rage generation at least.
The difference is we all also probably have gained 17 expertise now as well(Assuming Shard/Onslaught Belt). So you have a nice 4.25% cushion(68ish hit rating) and you most likely won't notice a massive drop off until you dip below say 140 or so, in terms of rage generation at least.
Edited onPatch 2.4.2
|
Originally Posted by Grayson Carlyle
Resocketing for hit and getting a [Hard Khorium Band] will be more DPS than wearing [Stormrage Signet Ring]. But everyone seems to be hell-bent against resocketing, even when it's a DPS upgrade. If you're below hit cap and you have sockets which are not hit gems, you're doing it wrong. A fully utilized [Rigid Dawnstone] is more DPS than [Smooth Lionseye].
-edit- Sorry Giantlol, with this post coming right after yours, I realized this could seem like a personal attack, but it really wasn't meant that way >_> |
I would gem for hit, and I do(well I did), but now that I've got a Moonkin raiding part time(I do keep hit gear in the bank) I'm hardly in trouble. And technically, it *is* better to negate that .2% or whatever it is chance to miss, but I think(Not 100% on this) that once I've got all the gear upgrades I need, I definitely will not have to be gemming for hit. Another thing you have to realize is that Stormrage Signet ring might be a little more accessible than KHB for some of us~ Another thing is that the problem I find with gemming for hit, is that eventually I pick upgrades which phase out the need for hit, and then I feel hesitant about "wasting" BT gems(Gem vendor isn't out yet)
Not to mention getting 30 of the "required" 142~ish(less if you have a moonkin) hit rating from just your ring gives you a lot of freedom to pick up other slots. In an ideal world we'd take whatever we want, but random loot is random. You can only hope that loot drops(Finally, for me, after months~I finally got Dreadboots).
More excited about the boots than Glaives :P haha. Hoping to get glaives one day!
Last edited by Giantlol : 05/14/08 at 1:42 PM.
Even if you gem hit in every socket, you won't get more white damage than ~40%. So it isn't clever.
[Ancient Amani Longbow] [Crossbow of Relentless Strikes]
Which one do you guys think is better? I waited forever for the ZA bow and it never dropped and i'm STILL using serpentshrine shurriken haha. I'm probably just going to end up getting the badge once since I just got 150 badges.
Which one do you guys think is better? I waited forever for the ZA bow and it never dropped and i'm STILL using serpentshrine shurriken haha. I'm probably just going to end up getting the badge once since I just got 150 badges.
Badge one is like 2 dps better than Amani Longbow. Very expensive for its benefit. But if you dont have ZA bow then its a bigger upgrade.
|
Originally Posted by Qruz
To my knowledge Stormrage Signet Ring and the Ring of Ruinious Delight is the best ring combo in the game, or have there been any recent loot table descoveries of rings?
|
|
Originally Posted by Heaton
[Ancient Amani Longbow] [Crossbow of Relentless Strikes]
Which one do you guys think is better? I waited forever for the ZA bow and it never dropped and i'm STILL using serpentshrine shurriken haha. I'm probably just going to end up getting the badge once since I just got 150 badges. |
Generally I drop some hit for trash so the bow is my choice there. However on low raid damage bosses where rage isn't as forthcoming I prefer the crossbow for slightly more hit.
If you dont have either then just take whatever comes first, there's really not much in it.
Hmm, just decided to fill in Landsoul's spreadsheet to see what that would say about various item combinations with my current gear.
I have no idea wether Dragonstrike is modeled as it the mace is in the game right now (non-stacking but refreshing procs), but it seems to be.
I filled in my current gear, the raid buffs I usually have - all the same on all three occasions. Only changes are the weapons.
- Dual Dragonstrike turns it into a 102.7 on average weapon, resulting in 1919 DPS. Haste uptime 48%, giving an average haste of 10% roughly
- My current combo (Dunno if Armory is updated, but it's DS/Talon with Exec/Goose) results in 1923 DPS
- The Vanir fists would result in 1945 DPS
I'm actually tempted to go grab the fists now, seems to be the best combination pre-Glaives despite the amazing haste from Dragonstrike?
Hurts to get rid of my lovely mace though tbh..
I have no idea wether Dragonstrike is modeled as it the mace is in the game right now (non-stacking but refreshing procs), but it seems to be.
I filled in my current gear, the raid buffs I usually have - all the same on all three occasions. Only changes are the weapons.
- Dual Dragonstrike turns it into a 102.7 on average weapon, resulting in 1919 DPS. Haste uptime 48%, giving an average haste of 10% roughly
- My current combo (Dunno if Armory is updated, but it's DS/Talon with Exec/Goose) results in 1923 DPS
- The Vanir fists would result in 1945 DPS
I'm actually tempted to go grab the fists now, seems to be the best combination pre-Glaives despite the amazing haste from Dragonstrike?
Hurts to get rid of my lovely mace though tbh..
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Originally Posted by Halle
I use both depending on what I'm attacking.
Generally I drop some hit for trash so the bow is my choice there. However on low raid damage bosses where rage isn't as forthcoming I prefer the crossbow for slightly more hit. If you dont have either then just take whatever comes first, there's really not much in it. |
So, anyone tried out the new Sweeping Strikes?
Appears to be the same chain range as, or slightly bigger than Cleave. However, the neat part is that it's a full 360 degrees around your center. WW'ing someone in front of you and behind you nets a nice 4 hits total. I've found it very useful in farming, but you could also position yourself nicely for Akama, and trash obviously. Can't think of any other boss fights off the top of my head where it would come in handy though.
Appears to be the same chain range as, or slightly bigger than Cleave. However, the neat part is that it's a full 360 degrees around your center. WW'ing someone in front of you and behind you nets a nice 4 hits total. I've found it very useful in farming, but you could also position yourself nicely for Akama, and trash obviously. Can't think of any other boss fights off the top of my head where it would come in handy though.
I debated making this its own thread, since I really feel it has become paramount for a change, but instead I'm going to start it here.
Now that I have experienced what Blizzard has given us as the most cutting edge of encounters; Illidari Council, Illidan, Kalecgos, Felmyst, Brutallus (if we could actually DPS from the front), Eredar Twins, and M'uru, I really feel as though it is beyond the time for Blizzard to re-evaluate the fact that we take 10% more damage than any other raid member on every raid encounter in the game. It seems that the new direction has become every encounter is going to stress the raid healers in some form of low pulsing damage, that either has a separate ability that increases the stress 5 to 10 fold on a few select members ( Read - Encapsulate, FA on Mother, the pulse during M'uru phase 2, phase 2 being the extreme case ), or will ramp up over time (Noxious fumes + Gas cloud).
Some could say, "Why not use battle stance for these encounters?". I find that while this always a good option, and one that perhaps made some sense in the past, the way these encounters are scaling has really become an issue. I know that a stable rotation for arms PVE is simply not possible in battle, and of course the obvious "intended" stance for fury has always been berserker. When I say scaling I mean of course how not just raid damage but the damage we need to deal to the boss or boss event mobs.
I believe a solution for this for this is possible without damaging the "danger" inherent in PVP, or in quick switch, stun, and kill tactics. The solution could be in the same vein as improved berserker stance. "Improved disciplines" could reduce damage taken in berserker stance by 4%\3%\3% for each point, along with the same change for improved berserker stance. I don't see why they couldn't also have -10% threat as well for "Improved Disciplines". Quite obviously, since these abilities are not usable in arena( or for fury, not really viable ), you would have little incentive to spend those points. If they felt some people might ( I don't see why they would ) they could disable it in arenas or some mechanic I haven't thought of.
Now that I have experienced what Blizzard has given us as the most cutting edge of encounters; Illidari Council, Illidan, Kalecgos, Felmyst, Brutallus (if we could actually DPS from the front), Eredar Twins, and M'uru, I really feel as though it is beyond the time for Blizzard to re-evaluate the fact that we take 10% more damage than any other raid member on every raid encounter in the game. It seems that the new direction has become every encounter is going to stress the raid healers in some form of low pulsing damage, that either has a separate ability that increases the stress 5 to 10 fold on a few select members ( Read - Encapsulate, FA on Mother, the pulse during M'uru phase 2, phase 2 being the extreme case ), or will ramp up over time (Noxious fumes + Gas cloud).
Some could say, "Why not use battle stance for these encounters?". I find that while this always a good option, and one that perhaps made some sense in the past, the way these encounters are scaling has really become an issue. I know that a stable rotation for arms PVE is simply not possible in battle, and of course the obvious "intended" stance for fury has always been berserker. When I say scaling I mean of course how not just raid damage but the damage we need to deal to the boss or boss event mobs.
I believe a solution for this for this is possible without damaging the "danger" inherent in PVP, or in quick switch, stun, and kill tactics. The solution could be in the same vein as improved berserker stance. "Improved disciplines" could reduce damage taken in berserker stance by 4%\3%\3% for each point, along with the same change for improved berserker stance. I don't see why they couldn't also have -10% threat as well for "Improved Disciplines". Quite obviously, since these abilities are not usable in arena( or for fury, not really viable ), you would have little incentive to spend those points. If they felt some people might ( I don't see why they would ) they could disable it in arenas or some mechanic I haven't thought of.
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Originally Posted by Werelds
Hmm, just decided to fill in Landsoul's spreadsheet to see what that would say about various item combinations with my current gear.
I have no idea wether Dragonstrike is modeled as it the mace is in the game right now (non-stacking but refreshing procs), but it seems to be. I filled in my current gear, the raid buffs I usually have - all the same on all three occasions. Only changes are the weapons. - Dual Dragonstrike turns it into a 102.7 on average weapon, resulting in 1919 DPS. Haste uptime 48%, giving an average haste of 10% roughly - My current combo (Dunno if Armory is updated, but it's DS/Talon with Exec/Goose) results in 1923 DPS - The Vanir fists would result in 1945 DPS I'm actually tempted to go grab the fists now, seems to be the best combination pre-Glaives despite the amazing haste from Dragonstrike? Hurts to get rid of my lovely mace though tbh.. |
I had my first Raid yesterday with this combination. I must say i was a little bit disappointed.
The DPS were about the same as with the combination i ran before. The proc wasnt up that often. But i would like to have more statistics.
Does anyone have experience with dual DS for now?
I also cant find a procwatcher which is working with 2.42, any recommendation for that?
Dual Dragonstrike isn't that good now that the buffs don't stack anymore. However, if I would ran dual DS I would only with lots of hitrating because haste is obviously profiting more from hitrating and the weapons will proc a lot more, when you don't miss that much.
Edited onPatch 2.4.2
Well, I'm still playing with the spreadsheet a bit, to see if I can maybe get it to work better, still think they should've made it stack though.
Seems I'll actually have to get the fist weapons until we get Glaives.
Edit: Just updated my spreadsheets (got MotB last night, finally dropped) and then started playing around with other items.
Filled in Stormrage Signet Ring instead of my Unstoppable Aggressor, and according to the spreadsheet (for now I'm just assuming the DS proc is modeled correctly, it seems to be anyway looking at proc data) Dual DS actually beats a single DS by a small margin, 2 DPS.
This is at 206 hit, which is not that hard to reach really.
My exact unbuffed stats in the sheet at this point: 2043 AP, 206 Hit, 29.36 Crit (lost some due to switching out Tsunami/Agressor), 539 ArP and 11 Expertise.
I haven't really looked at Sunwell items that much yet since we're still farming BT mostly at the moment, but from what I gather from this thread hit will be hard to come by in Sunwell gear? If that's the case, Dual DS most certainly will fail, but if we're able to keep hit around 210ish and just improve all of our other stats, it actually seems to be a viable option?
Then again, the fists are still worth 19 more DPS.
Seems I'll actually have to get the fist weapons until we get Glaives.
Edit: Just updated my spreadsheets (got MotB last night, finally dropped) and then started playing around with other items.
Filled in Stormrage Signet Ring instead of my Unstoppable Aggressor, and according to the spreadsheet (for now I'm just assuming the DS proc is modeled correctly, it seems to be anyway looking at proc data) Dual DS actually beats a single DS by a small margin, 2 DPS.
This is at 206 hit, which is not that hard to reach really.
My exact unbuffed stats in the sheet at this point: 2043 AP, 206 Hit, 29.36 Crit (lost some due to switching out Tsunami/Agressor), 539 ArP and 11 Expertise.
I haven't really looked at Sunwell items that much yet since we're still farming BT mostly at the moment, but from what I gather from this thread hit will be hard to come by in Sunwell gear? If that's the case, Dual DS most certainly will fail, but if we're able to keep hit around 210ish and just improve all of our other stats, it actually seems to be a viable option?
Then again, the fists are still worth 19 more DPS.
Last edited by Werelds : 05/16/08 at 3:15 AM.
Guys, thanks for the excellent input (as always) re. my problems with 2H hit. I suppose I'll just replace the Aggressor ring with the Stormrage one as we're quite gem starved at the moment, and no gem vendor on our realm yet.
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Originally Posted by Morsexy
I believe a solution for this for this is possible without damaging the "danger" inherent in PVP, or in quick switch, stun, and kill tactics. The solution could be in the same vein as improved berserker stance. "Improved disciplines" could reduce damage taken in berserker stance by 4%\3%\3% for each point, along with the same change for improved berserker stance. I don't see why they couldn't also have -10% threat as well for "Improved Disciplines". Quite obviously, since these abilities are not usable in arena( or for fury, not really viable ), you would have little incentive to spend those points. If they felt some people might ( I don't see why they would ) they could disable it in arenas or some mechanic I haven't thought of.
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Originally Posted by Hozz
I think the ability reducing Berserker stance damage taken ought to just be rolled into Improved Berserker Stance.
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This is an even bigger issue with Sunwell gear, it's pretty sad that the higher the instance gets (with quite a bit of ride wide damage pulsing) that warriors start to completely lose out on stamina and now have less than every other mele class. Whats the point of plate if you're not going to actually get hit by physical damage while DPS'ing a boss when its all magical auras/dots going off.
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Originally Posted by Grayson Carlyle
So, anyone tried out the new Sweeping Strikes?
Appears to be the same chain range as, or slightly bigger than Cleave. However, the neat part is that it's a full 360 degrees around your center. WW'ing someone in front of you and behind you nets a nice 4 hits total. I've found it very useful in farming, but you could also position yourself nicely for Akama, and trash obviously. Can't think of any other boss fights off the top of my head where it would come in handy though. |
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Originally Posted by shed
Yes, nobody actually PVP's with this spec since it isnt viable (even with the talents to actually reduce dmg to make it 0% or *gasp* 10% less dmg taken too), so there wouldnt be any PVP issues.
This is an even bigger issue with Sunwell gear, it's pretty sad that the higher the instance gets (with quite a bit of ride wide damage pulsing) that warriors start to completely lose out on stamina and now have less than every other mele class. Whats the point of plate if you're not going to actually get hit by physical damage while DPS'ing a boss when its all magical auras/dots going off. |
Quite frankly I'm astonished that this hasn't been addressed. I am still trying to understand how other classes have a mix of stats on their t6 Sunwell pieces, and we do not, while all are subject to magic damage.
Rogues have +61 stamina in their t6 vs our boots\bracers\belt t6. You're telling me that 5-8 critical strike rating (.23- .36%%) can't be dropped from each piece to add whatever that would be in stamina. I definitely do NOT want to turn this into a QQ about it thread, but of the classes that do melee damage, shaman\druid\paladin can heal, rogues can vanish and cloak, shamans can ahnk. While I realize that the healing may be terrible, it still seems odd that we take the most damage, have the least stamina, and have zero "outs" besides healthstones\pots. Most of these outs cost a GCD sure, but they are also productive outs. Going Defensive stance is a pure reactive out and does nothing for us but prolong an imminent death while completely halting dps ( I know I don't raid with TM ).
I am not saying anything like "don't be a dumbass and you won't die", I am not talking about pulling aggro, I am talking about the raidstress of healing us along with our propensity to be the most vulnerable of all the melee classes for any of the aforementioned reasons. It is beyond time to change what was once "cool" and has now scaled beyond what could have been intended.
Maybe it's because I'm a tauren, or maybe it's because I have dual season 3 weapons, but when they removed all stamina from the new tier 6 pieces on the PTR, and then added some of it back for everyone but warriors, I was very pleased. Traditionally I've had a couple thousand more hitpoints than any of the other DPS in my guild's raids, but losing a bit of stamina on the new T6 pieces brings me more in line with the rest of the raid in terms of total hit points. I am enjoying the extra dps stats on the new warrior T6 pieces very much. While the new sunwell encounters do focus heavily on raid-wide magical damage, I certainly haven't been dying more than any of the other DPS due to a lack of stamina, or because I take 10% increased damage taken in berserk stance.
It's fine. Besides, the whole point of berserk stance is to give a bonus to DPS, but at the cost of making it inherently more dangerous to be in that stance.
It's fine. Besides, the whole point of berserk stance is to give a bonus to DPS, but at the cost of making it inherently more dangerous to be in that stance.
First time poster, long time admirer.
I have a question regarding the [Shattered Sun Pendant of Might] vs. [Pendant of the Perilous] in my current gear set. Is the proc worth dropping some stats and going from perilous to might? I'm exalted and able to buy the neck, going to try it out in a raid and see how it goes. Not too sure yet which one to use.
EDIT: I have access to [Choker of Serrated Blades] , is the armor pen worth dropping the crit?
I have a question regarding the [Shattered Sun Pendant of Might] vs. [Pendant of the Perilous] in my current gear set. Is the proc worth dropping some stats and going from perilous to might? I'm exalted and able to buy the neck, going to try it out in a raid and see how it goes. Not too sure yet which one to use.
EDIT: I have access to [Choker of Serrated Blades] , is the armor pen worth dropping the crit?
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Originally Posted by Warfield
Besides, the whole point of berserk stance is to give a bonus to DPS, but at the cost of making it inherently more dangerous to be in that stance.
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The only issue with this, is the 'bonus' to dps merely brings us in line with other classes, whereas they do not suffer any negative repercussions for any sort of bonuses. If we were on par in battle, and zerk put us slightly ahead of the pack, sure, this point would have value.
I honestly don't see a real issue with the current state of Berserker Stance in regards to the extra damage taken. Sure, we may be balanced around having the extra 3% crit, but we also have the benefit of Defensive Stance, which we can swap to in instances when we know we're about to take a large chunk of unavoidable damage.
Like the poster a couple posts above, maybe it's because I'm tauren and and I tend to have more HP than any other dps in the raid, but I've never really had an issue with the 10% more damage. Granted, I'm yet to deal with the twins or Mu'ru, but up to and including Felmyst I've never noticed a problem with survivability.
EDIT: This is all in regards to PvE. PvP might be a different issue.
Like the poster a couple posts above, maybe it's because I'm tauren and and I tend to have more HP than any other dps in the raid, but I've never really had an issue with the 10% more damage. Granted, I'm yet to deal with the twins or Mu'ru, but up to and including Felmyst I've never noticed a problem with survivability.
EDIT: This is all in regards to PvE. PvP might be a different issue.
It might seem silly, but if you're at 100% HP, tossing up Commanding Shout before a big AoE gives a nice little ~1300 HP buff. It's rather situational I suppose (I can only think of Naj'entus as a good example) but it's useful on fights that have a lot of splash damage and aren't really timer intensive. Kalecgos, Mother, IC, RoS Phase 1, and Archimonde are all fights that come to mind off the top of my head.
That being said, I don't think it's really accurate to say that ret paladins, enh. shaman, or feral druids have healing themselves as an "out". Their heals are generally pretty weak, and consume a good chunk of mana, which is used (by shaman and paladins at least) for DPS. Depending on the length of the fight, it can be quite a large chunk of DPS gone; though I suppose the counter to that is they'd do 0 DPS if they were dead. But still, they don't take the extra 10% damage, and they do have the stamina on T6 Sunwell items.
I know warriors have more base HP than other classes now in TBC, but is it enough to make up for 10% extra damage taken and 0 stam on otherwise well itemized pieces?
That being said, I don't think it's really accurate to say that ret paladins, enh. shaman, or feral druids have healing themselves as an "out". Their heals are generally pretty weak, and consume a good chunk of mana, which is used (by shaman and paladins at least) for DPS. Depending on the length of the fight, it can be quite a large chunk of DPS gone; though I suppose the counter to that is they'd do 0 DPS if they were dead. But still, they don't take the extra 10% damage, and they do have the stamina on T6 Sunwell items.
I know warriors have more base HP than other classes now in TBC, but is it enough to make up for 10% extra damage taken and 0 stam on otherwise well itemized pieces?
The point is muru, kalecgos, twins sometimes, felmyst all pulse damage every 5-10 seconds and its not avoidable.
I find this whole "oh well its more dangerous" or "thats what its supposed to BE man" or some argument like that very out dated. Every single mage in the raid has iceblock now, warlocks can shatter, there have been tons of little changes that balance the game around either A. Fixing imbalance like Invis+Fd + nothing for locks or B. solving complicated issues that are detrimental to everyone of a certain type, healer, dps, or melee. The cleave change was for the better I think we would all agree, and right now, on M'uru, doing what I have to do to make myself viable, on Entropius I take average hits of 2500 damage, vs 2050 or so damage for the rest of the raid. Granted this is with deathwish, recklessness and obviously berserker stance up, but nothing changes the fact that if the raid is taking 2050 damage pulses, I should be taking 2800 pulses, which seems insane.
With just berserker stance Id be taking 205 more damage.
The real question is, why doesn't an ability like "The Beast Within" confer the same extra damage taking as deathwish, or recklessness? The long and short is this was an ability designed with splash damage encounters in mind, or perhaps PVP, and so that side of it was removed or not even seriously considered, and under the logic currently in place for warriors, it absolutely should be.
The long and short is this needs to be evaluated. On M'uru I took a pulse for 2747. The next highest is 2304 ( warrior ) and then a smattering of people around 2070-2111 ( warlock ).
I know I personally wish that all of this "more damage inc lawl" crap was plain gone from the game, but I would settle just for a balance in PvE. I can handle that recklessness is THAT insane of an ability, and thus deserves the 20% more damage. What I can't handle is 10% more damage to be in the correct and only damage dealing stance.
I find this whole "oh well its more dangerous" or "thats what its supposed to BE man" or some argument like that very out dated. Every single mage in the raid has iceblock now, warlocks can shatter, there have been tons of little changes that balance the game around either A. Fixing imbalance like Invis+Fd + nothing for locks or B. solving complicated issues that are detrimental to everyone of a certain type, healer, dps, or melee. The cleave change was for the better I think we would all agree, and right now, on M'uru, doing what I have to do to make myself viable, on Entropius I take average hits of 2500 damage, vs 2050 or so damage for the rest of the raid. Granted this is with deathwish, recklessness and obviously berserker stance up, but nothing changes the fact that if the raid is taking 2050 damage pulses, I should be taking 2800 pulses, which seems insane.
With just berserker stance Id be taking 205 more damage.
The real question is, why doesn't an ability like "The Beast Within" confer the same extra damage taking as deathwish, or recklessness? The long and short is this was an ability designed with splash damage encounters in mind, or perhaps PVP, and so that side of it was removed or not even seriously considered, and under the logic currently in place for warriors, it absolutely should be.
The long and short is this needs to be evaluated. On M'uru I took a pulse for 2747. The next highest is 2304 ( warrior ) and then a smattering of people around 2070-2111 ( warlock ).
I know I personally wish that all of this "more damage inc lawl" crap was plain gone from the game, but I would settle just for a balance in PvE. I can handle that recklessness is THAT insane of an ability, and thus deserves the 20% more damage. What I can't handle is 10% more damage to be in the correct and only damage dealing stance.
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Originally Posted by Cranbery
First time poster, long time admirer.
I have a question regarding the [Shattered Sun Pendant of Might] vs. [Pendant of the Perilous] in my current gear set. Is the proc worth dropping some stats and going from perilous to might? I'm exalted and able to buy the neck, going to try it out in a raid and see how it goes. Not too sure yet which one to use. EDIT: I have access to [Choker of Serrated Blades] , is the armor pen worth dropping the crit? |
Edited onPatch 2.4.2
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Originally Posted by Grayson Carlyle
Resocketing for hit and getting a [Hard Khorium Band] will be more DPS than wearing [Stormrage Signet Ring]. But everyone seems to be hell-bent against resocketing, even when it's a DPS upgrade. If you're below hit cap and you have sockets which are not hit gems, you're doing it wrong. A fully utilized [Rigid Dawnstone] is more DPS than [Smooth Lionseye].
-edit- Sorry Giantlol, with this post coming right after yours, I realized this could seem like a personal attack, but it really wasn't meant that way >_> |
I would gem for hit, and I do(well I did), but now that I've got a Moonkin raiding part time(I do keep hit gear in the bank) I'm hardly in trouble. And technically, it *is* better to negate that .2% or whatever it is chance to miss, but I think(Not 100% on this) that once I've got all the gear upgrades I need, I definitely will not have to be gemming for hit. Another thing you have to realize is that Stormrage Signet ring might be a little more accessible than KHB for some of us~ Another thing is that the problem I find with gemming for hit, is that eventually I pick upgrades which phase out the need for hit, and then I feel hesitant about "wasting" BT gems(Gem vendor isn't out yet)
Not to mention getting 30 of the "required" 142~ish(less if you have a moonkin) hit rating from just your ring gives you a lot of freedom to pick up other slots. In an ideal world we'd take whatever we want, but random loot is random. You can only hope that loot drops(Finally, for me, after months~I finally got Dreadboots).
More excited about the boots than Glaives :P haha. Hoping to get glaives one day!
Last edited by Giantlol : 05/14/08 at 1:42 PM.
Even if you gem hit in every socket, you won't get more white damage than ~40%. So it isn't clever.
[Ancient Amani Longbow] [Crossbow of Relentless Strikes]
Which one do you guys think is better? I waited forever for the ZA bow and it never dropped and i'm STILL using serpentshrine shurriken haha. I'm probably just going to end up getting the badge once since I just got 150 badges.
Which one do you guys think is better? I waited forever for the ZA bow and it never dropped and i'm STILL using serpentshrine shurriken haha. I'm probably just going to end up getting the badge once since I just got 150 badges.
Badge one is like 2 dps better than Amani Longbow. Very expensive for its benefit. But if you dont have ZA bow then its a bigger upgrade.
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Originally Posted by Qruz
To my knowledge Stormrage Signet Ring and the Ring of Ruinious Delight is the best ring combo in the game, or have there been any recent loot table descoveries of rings?
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Originally Posted by Heaton
[Ancient Amani Longbow] [Crossbow of Relentless Strikes]
Which one do you guys think is better? I waited forever for the ZA bow and it never dropped and i'm STILL using serpentshrine shurriken haha. I'm probably just going to end up getting the badge once since I just got 150 badges. |
Generally I drop some hit for trash so the bow is my choice there. However on low raid damage bosses where rage isn't as forthcoming I prefer the crossbow for slightly more hit.
If you dont have either then just take whatever comes first, there's really not much in it.
Hmm, just decided to fill in Landsoul's spreadsheet to see what that would say about various item combinations with my current gear.
I have no idea wether Dragonstrike is modeled as it the mace is in the game right now (non-stacking but refreshing procs), but it seems to be.
I filled in my current gear, the raid buffs I usually have - all the same on all three occasions. Only changes are the weapons.
- Dual Dragonstrike turns it into a 102.7 on average weapon, resulting in 1919 DPS. Haste uptime 48%, giving an average haste of 10% roughly
- My current combo (Dunno if Armory is updated, but it's DS/Talon with Exec/Goose) results in 1923 DPS
- The Vanir fists would result in 1945 DPS
I'm actually tempted to go grab the fists now, seems to be the best combination pre-Glaives despite the amazing haste from Dragonstrike?
Hurts to get rid of my lovely mace though tbh..
I have no idea wether Dragonstrike is modeled as it the mace is in the game right now (non-stacking but refreshing procs), but it seems to be.
I filled in my current gear, the raid buffs I usually have - all the same on all three occasions. Only changes are the weapons.
- Dual Dragonstrike turns it into a 102.7 on average weapon, resulting in 1919 DPS. Haste uptime 48%, giving an average haste of 10% roughly
- My current combo (Dunno if Armory is updated, but it's DS/Talon with Exec/Goose) results in 1923 DPS
- The Vanir fists would result in 1945 DPS
I'm actually tempted to go grab the fists now, seems to be the best combination pre-Glaives despite the amazing haste from Dragonstrike?
Hurts to get rid of my lovely mace though tbh..
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Originally Posted by Halle
I use both depending on what I'm attacking.
Generally I drop some hit for trash so the bow is my choice there. However on low raid damage bosses where rage isn't as forthcoming I prefer the crossbow for slightly more hit. If you dont have either then just take whatever comes first, there's really not much in it. |
So, anyone tried out the new Sweeping Strikes?
Appears to be the same chain range as, or slightly bigger than Cleave. However, the neat part is that it's a full 360 degrees around your center. WW'ing someone in front of you and behind you nets a nice 4 hits total. I've found it very useful in farming, but you could also position yourself nicely for Akama, and trash obviously. Can't think of any other boss fights off the top of my head where it would come in handy though.
Appears to be the same chain range as, or slightly bigger than Cleave. However, the neat part is that it's a full 360 degrees around your center. WW'ing someone in front of you and behind you nets a nice 4 hits total. I've found it very useful in farming, but you could also position yourself nicely for Akama, and trash obviously. Can't think of any other boss fights off the top of my head where it would come in handy though.
I debated making this its own thread, since I really feel it has become paramount for a change, but instead I'm going to start it here.
Now that I have experienced what Blizzard has given us as the most cutting edge of encounters; Illidari Council, Illidan, Kalecgos, Felmyst, Brutallus (if we could actually DPS from the front), Eredar Twins, and M'uru, I really feel as though it is beyond the time for Blizzard to re-evaluate the fact that we take 10% more damage than any other raid member on every raid encounter in the game. It seems that the new direction has become every encounter is going to stress the raid healers in some form of low pulsing damage, that either has a separate ability that increases the stress 5 to 10 fold on a few select members ( Read - Encapsulate, FA on Mother, the pulse during M'uru phase 2, phase 2 being the extreme case ), or will ramp up over time (Noxious fumes + Gas cloud).
Some could say, "Why not use battle stance for these encounters?". I find that while this always a good option, and one that perhaps made some sense in the past, the way these encounters are scaling has really become an issue. I know that a stable rotation for arms PVE is simply not possible in battle, and of course the obvious "intended" stance for fury has always been berserker. When I say scaling I mean of course how not just raid damage but the damage we need to deal to the boss or boss event mobs.
I believe a solution for this for this is possible without damaging the "danger" inherent in PVP, or in quick switch, stun, and kill tactics. The solution could be in the same vein as improved berserker stance. "Improved disciplines" could reduce damage taken in berserker stance by 4%\3%\3% for each point, along with the same change for improved berserker stance. I don't see why they couldn't also have -10% threat as well for "Improved Disciplines". Quite obviously, since these abilities are not usable in arena( or for fury, not really viable ), you would have little incentive to spend those points. If they felt some people might ( I don't see why they would ) they could disable it in arenas or some mechanic I haven't thought of.
Now that I have experienced what Blizzard has given us as the most cutting edge of encounters; Illidari Council, Illidan, Kalecgos, Felmyst, Brutallus (if we could actually DPS from the front), Eredar Twins, and M'uru, I really feel as though it is beyond the time for Blizzard to re-evaluate the fact that we take 10% more damage than any other raid member on every raid encounter in the game. It seems that the new direction has become every encounter is going to stress the raid healers in some form of low pulsing damage, that either has a separate ability that increases the stress 5 to 10 fold on a few select members ( Read - Encapsulate, FA on Mother, the pulse during M'uru phase 2, phase 2 being the extreme case ), or will ramp up over time (Noxious fumes + Gas cloud).
Some could say, "Why not use battle stance for these encounters?". I find that while this always a good option, and one that perhaps made some sense in the past, the way these encounters are scaling has really become an issue. I know that a stable rotation for arms PVE is simply not possible in battle, and of course the obvious "intended" stance for fury has always been berserker. When I say scaling I mean of course how not just raid damage but the damage we need to deal to the boss or boss event mobs.
I believe a solution for this for this is possible without damaging the "danger" inherent in PVP, or in quick switch, stun, and kill tactics. The solution could be in the same vein as improved berserker stance. "Improved disciplines" could reduce damage taken in berserker stance by 4%\3%\3% for each point, along with the same change for improved berserker stance. I don't see why they couldn't also have -10% threat as well for "Improved Disciplines". Quite obviously, since these abilities are not usable in arena( or for fury, not really viable ), you would have little incentive to spend those points. If they felt some people might ( I don't see why they would ) they could disable it in arenas or some mechanic I haven't thought of.
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Originally Posted by Werelds
Hmm, just decided to fill in Landsoul's spreadsheet to see what that would say about various item combinations with my current gear.
I have no idea wether Dragonstrike is modeled as it the mace is in the game right now (non-stacking but refreshing procs), but it seems to be. I filled in my current gear, the raid buffs I usually have - all the same on all three occasions. Only changes are the weapons. - Dual Dragonstrike turns it into a 102.7 on average weapon, resulting in 1919 DPS. Haste uptime 48%, giving an average haste of 10% roughly - My current combo (Dunno if Armory is updated, but it's DS/Talon with Exec/Goose) results in 1923 DPS - The Vanir fists would result in 1945 DPS I'm actually tempted to go grab the fists now, seems to be the best combination pre-Glaives despite the amazing haste from Dragonstrike? Hurts to get rid of my lovely mace though tbh.. |
I had my first Raid yesterday with this combination. I must say i was a little bit disappointed.
The DPS were about the same as with the combination i ran before. The proc wasnt up that often. But i would like to have more statistics.
Does anyone have experience with dual DS for now?
I also cant find a procwatcher which is working with 2.42, any recommendation for that?
Dual Dragonstrike isn't that good now that the buffs don't stack anymore. However, if I would ran dual DS I would only with lots of hitrating because haste is obviously profiting more from hitrating and the weapons will proc a lot more, when you don't miss that much.
Edited onPatch 2.4.2
Well, I'm still playing with the spreadsheet a bit, to see if I can maybe get it to work better, still think they should've made it stack though.
Seems I'll actually have to get the fist weapons until we get Glaives.
Edit: Just updated my spreadsheets (got MotB last night, finally dropped) and then started playing around with other items.
Filled in Stormrage Signet Ring instead of my Unstoppable Aggressor, and according to the spreadsheet (for now I'm just assuming the DS proc is modeled correctly, it seems to be anyway looking at proc data) Dual DS actually beats a single DS by a small margin, 2 DPS.
This is at 206 hit, which is not that hard to reach really.
My exact unbuffed stats in the sheet at this point: 2043 AP, 206 Hit, 29.36 Crit (lost some due to switching out Tsunami/Agressor), 539 ArP and 11 Expertise.
I haven't really looked at Sunwell items that much yet since we're still farming BT mostly at the moment, but from what I gather from this thread hit will be hard to come by in Sunwell gear? If that's the case, Dual DS most certainly will fail, but if we're able to keep hit around 210ish and just improve all of our other stats, it actually seems to be a viable option?
Then again, the fists are still worth 19 more DPS.
Seems I'll actually have to get the fist weapons until we get Glaives.
Edit: Just updated my spreadsheets (got MotB last night, finally dropped) and then started playing around with other items.
Filled in Stormrage Signet Ring instead of my Unstoppable Aggressor, and according to the spreadsheet (for now I'm just assuming the DS proc is modeled correctly, it seems to be anyway looking at proc data) Dual DS actually beats a single DS by a small margin, 2 DPS.
This is at 206 hit, which is not that hard to reach really.
My exact unbuffed stats in the sheet at this point: 2043 AP, 206 Hit, 29.36 Crit (lost some due to switching out Tsunami/Agressor), 539 ArP and 11 Expertise.
I haven't really looked at Sunwell items that much yet since we're still farming BT mostly at the moment, but from what I gather from this thread hit will be hard to come by in Sunwell gear? If that's the case, Dual DS most certainly will fail, but if we're able to keep hit around 210ish and just improve all of our other stats, it actually seems to be a viable option?
Then again, the fists are still worth 19 more DPS.
Last edited by Werelds : 05/16/08 at 3:15 AM.
Guys, thanks for the excellent input (as always) re. my problems with 2H hit. I suppose I'll just replace the Aggressor ring with the Stormrage one as we're quite gem starved at the moment, and no gem vendor on our realm yet.
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Originally Posted by Morsexy
I believe a solution for this for this is possible without damaging the "danger" inherent in PVP, or in quick switch, stun, and kill tactics. The solution could be in the same vein as improved berserker stance. "Improved disciplines" could reduce damage taken in berserker stance by 4%\3%\3% for each point, along with the same change for improved berserker stance. I don't see why they couldn't also have -10% threat as well for "Improved Disciplines". Quite obviously, since these abilities are not usable in arena( or for fury, not really viable ), you would have little incentive to spend those points. If they felt some people might ( I don't see why they would ) they could disable it in arenas or some mechanic I haven't thought of.
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Originally Posted by Hozz
I think the ability reducing Berserker stance damage taken ought to just be rolled into Improved Berserker Stance.
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This is an even bigger issue with Sunwell gear, it's pretty sad that the higher the instance gets (with quite a bit of ride wide damage pulsing) that warriors start to completely lose out on stamina and now have less than every other mele class. Whats the point of plate if you're not going to actually get hit by physical damage while DPS'ing a boss when its all magical auras/dots going off.
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Originally Posted by Grayson Carlyle
So, anyone tried out the new Sweeping Strikes?
Appears to be the same chain range as, or slightly bigger than Cleave. However, the neat part is that it's a full 360 degrees around your center. WW'ing someone in front of you and behind you nets a nice 4 hits total. I've found it very useful in farming, but you could also position yourself nicely for Akama, and trash obviously. Can't think of any other boss fights off the top of my head where it would come in handy though. |
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Originally Posted by shed
Yes, nobody actually PVP's with this spec since it isnt viable (even with the talents to actually reduce dmg to make it 0% or *gasp* 10% less dmg taken too), so there wouldnt be any PVP issues.
This is an even bigger issue with Sunwell gear, it's pretty sad that the higher the instance gets (with quite a bit of ride wide damage pulsing) that warriors start to completely lose out on stamina and now have less than every other mele class. Whats the point of plate if you're not going to actually get hit by physical damage while DPS'ing a boss when its all magical auras/dots going off. |
Quite frankly I'm astonished that this hasn't been addressed. I am still trying to understand how other classes have a mix of stats on their t6 Sunwell pieces, and we do not, while all are subject to magic damage.
Rogues have +61 stamina in their t6 vs our boots\bracers\belt t6. You're telling me that 5-8 critical strike rating (.23- .36%%) can't be dropped from each piece to add whatever that would be in stamina. I definitely do NOT want to turn this into a QQ about it thread, but of the classes that do melee damage, shaman\druid\paladin can heal, rogues can vanish and cloak, shamans can ahnk. While I realize that the healing may be terrible, it still seems odd that we take the most damage, have the least stamina, and have zero "outs" besides healthstones\pots. Most of these outs cost a GCD sure, but they are also productive outs. Going Defensive stance is a pure reactive out and does nothing for us but prolong an imminent death while completely halting dps ( I know I don't raid with TM ).
I am not saying anything like "don't be a dumbass and you won't die", I am not talking about pulling aggro, I am talking about the raidstress of healing us along with our propensity to be the most vulnerable of all the melee classes for any of the aforementioned reasons. It is beyond time to change what was once "cool" and has now scaled beyond what could have been intended.
Maybe it's because I'm a tauren, or maybe it's because I have dual season 3 weapons, but when they removed all stamina from the new tier 6 pieces on the PTR, and then added some of it back for everyone but warriors, I was very pleased. Traditionally I've had a couple thousand more hitpoints than any of the other DPS in my guild's raids, but losing a bit of stamina on the new T6 pieces brings me more in line with the rest of the raid in terms of total hit points. I am enjoying the extra dps stats on the new warrior T6 pieces very much. While the new sunwell encounters do focus heavily on raid-wide magical damage, I certainly haven't been dying more than any of the other DPS due to a lack of stamina, or because I take 10% increased damage taken in berserk stance.
It's fine. Besides, the whole point of berserk stance is to give a bonus to DPS, but at the cost of making it inherently more dangerous to be in that stance.
It's fine. Besides, the whole point of berserk stance is to give a bonus to DPS, but at the cost of making it inherently more dangerous to be in that stance.
First time poster, long time admirer.
I have a question regarding the [Shattered Sun Pendant of Might] vs. [Pendant of the Perilous] in my current gear set. Is the proc worth dropping some stats and going from perilous to might? I'm exalted and able to buy the neck, going to try it out in a raid and see how it goes. Not too sure yet which one to use.
EDIT: I have access to [Choker of Serrated Blades] , is the armor pen worth dropping the crit?
I have a question regarding the [Shattered Sun Pendant of Might] vs. [Pendant of the Perilous] in my current gear set. Is the proc worth dropping some stats and going from perilous to might? I'm exalted and able to buy the neck, going to try it out in a raid and see how it goes. Not too sure yet which one to use.
EDIT: I have access to [Choker of Serrated Blades] , is the armor pen worth dropping the crit?
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Originally Posted by Warfield
Besides, the whole point of berserk stance is to give a bonus to DPS, but at the cost of making it inherently more dangerous to be in that stance.
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The only issue with this, is the 'bonus' to dps merely brings us in line with other classes, whereas they do not suffer any negative repercussions for any sort of bonuses. If we were on par in battle, and zerk put us slightly ahead of the pack, sure, this point would have value.
I honestly don't see a real issue with the current state of Berserker Stance in regards to the extra damage taken. Sure, we may be balanced around having the extra 3% crit, but we also have the benefit of Defensive Stance, which we can swap to in instances when we know we're about to take a large chunk of unavoidable damage.
Like the poster a couple posts above, maybe it's because I'm tauren and and I tend to have more HP than any other dps in the raid, but I've never really had an issue with the 10% more damage. Granted, I'm yet to deal with the twins or Mu'ru, but up to and including Felmyst I've never noticed a problem with survivability.
EDIT: This is all in regards to PvE. PvP might be a different issue.
Like the poster a couple posts above, maybe it's because I'm tauren and and I tend to have more HP than any other dps in the raid, but I've never really had an issue with the 10% more damage. Granted, I'm yet to deal with the twins or Mu'ru, but up to and including Felmyst I've never noticed a problem with survivability.
EDIT: This is all in regards to PvE. PvP might be a different issue.
It might seem silly, but if you're at 100% HP, tossing up Commanding Shout before a big AoE gives a nice little ~1300 HP buff. It's rather situational I suppose (I can only think of Naj'entus as a good example) but it's useful on fights that have a lot of splash damage and aren't really timer intensive. Kalecgos, Mother, IC, RoS Phase 1, and Archimonde are all fights that come to mind off the top of my head.
That being said, I don't think it's really accurate to say that ret paladins, enh. shaman, or feral druids have healing themselves as an "out". Their heals are generally pretty weak, and consume a good chunk of mana, which is used (by shaman and paladins at least) for DPS. Depending on the length of the fight, it can be quite a large chunk of DPS gone; though I suppose the counter to that is they'd do 0 DPS if they were dead. But still, they don't take the extra 10% damage, and they do have the stamina on T6 Sunwell items.
I know warriors have more base HP than other classes now in TBC, but is it enough to make up for 10% extra damage taken and 0 stam on otherwise well itemized pieces?
That being said, I don't think it's really accurate to say that ret paladins, enh. shaman, or feral druids have healing themselves as an "out". Their heals are generally pretty weak, and consume a good chunk of mana, which is used (by shaman and paladins at least) for DPS. Depending on the length of the fight, it can be quite a large chunk of DPS gone; though I suppose the counter to that is they'd do 0 DPS if they were dead. But still, they don't take the extra 10% damage, and they do have the stamina on T6 Sunwell items.
I know warriors have more base HP than other classes now in TBC, but is it enough to make up for 10% extra damage taken and 0 stam on otherwise well itemized pieces?
The point is muru, kalecgos, twins sometimes, felmyst all pulse damage every 5-10 seconds and its not avoidable.
I find this whole "oh well its more dangerous" or "thats what its supposed to BE man" or some argument like that very out dated. Every single mage in the raid has iceblock now, warlocks can shatter, there have been tons of little changes that balance the game around either A. Fixing imbalance like Invis+Fd + nothing for locks or B. solving complicated issues that are detrimental to everyone of a certain type, healer, dps, or melee. The cleave change was for the better I think we would all agree, and right now, on M'uru, doing what I have to do to make myself viable, on Entropius I take average hits of 2500 damage, vs 2050 or so damage for the rest of the raid. Granted this is with deathwish, recklessness and obviously berserker stance up, but nothing changes the fact that if the raid is taking 2050 damage pulses, I should be taking 2800 pulses, which seems insane.
With just berserker stance Id be taking 205 more damage.
The real question is, why doesn't an ability like "The Beast Within" confer the same extra damage taking as deathwish, or recklessness? The long and short is this was an ability designed with splash damage encounters in mind, or perhaps PVP, and so that side of it was removed or not even seriously considered, and under the logic currently in place for warriors, it absolutely should be.
The long and short is this needs to be evaluated. On M'uru I took a pulse for 2747. The next highest is 2304 ( warrior ) and then a smattering of people around 2070-2111 ( warlock ).
I know I personally wish that all of this "more damage inc lawl" crap was plain gone from the game, but I would settle just for a balance in PvE. I can handle that recklessness is THAT insane of an ability, and thus deserves the 20% more damage. What I can't handle is 10% more damage to be in the correct and only damage dealing stance.
I find this whole "oh well its more dangerous" or "thats what its supposed to BE man" or some argument like that very out dated. Every single mage in the raid has iceblock now, warlocks can shatter, there have been tons of little changes that balance the game around either A. Fixing imbalance like Invis+Fd + nothing for locks or B. solving complicated issues that are detrimental to everyone of a certain type, healer, dps, or melee. The cleave change was for the better I think we would all agree, and right now, on M'uru, doing what I have to do to make myself viable, on Entropius I take average hits of 2500 damage, vs 2050 or so damage for the rest of the raid. Granted this is with deathwish, recklessness and obviously berserker stance up, but nothing changes the fact that if the raid is taking 2050 damage pulses, I should be taking 2800 pulses, which seems insane.
With just berserker stance Id be taking 205 more damage.
The real question is, why doesn't an ability like "The Beast Within" confer the same extra damage taking as deathwish, or recklessness? The long and short is this was an ability designed with splash damage encounters in mind, or perhaps PVP, and so that side of it was removed or not even seriously considered, and under the logic currently in place for warriors, it absolutely should be.
The long and short is this needs to be evaluated. On M'uru I took a pulse for 2747. The next highest is 2304 ( warrior ) and then a smattering of people around 2070-2111 ( warlock ).
I know I personally wish that all of this "more damage inc lawl" crap was plain gone from the game, but I would settle just for a balance in PvE. I can handle that recklessness is THAT insane of an ability, and thus deserves the 20% more damage. What I can't handle is 10% more damage to be in the correct and only damage dealing stance.
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Originally Posted by Cranbery
First time poster, long time admirer.
I have a question regarding the [Shattered Sun Pendant of Might] vs. [Pendant of the Perilous] in my current gear set. Is the proc worth dropping some stats and going from perilous to might? I'm exalted and able to buy the neck, going to try it out in a raid and see how it goes. Not too sure yet which one to use. EDIT: I have access to [Choker of Serrated Blades] , is the armor pen worth dropping the crit? |
Same as cranberry, first post but been reading these forums for ages.
got a question about what neck to get as replacment for my [Pendant of the Perilous]. i have access to both [Choker of Serrated Blades] and [Choker of Endless Nightmares]?
i presonally like the supremus neck because of it`s hitrating, seeing as it`ll be one of the few items i`ll wear with hit endgame.
also wich cloak should i use? have [Dory's Embrace] atm, is [Shadowmoon Destroyer's Drape] enough of a upgrade for me as a arms warrior to use dkp on or should i start saving for sunwell loot?(farmed illidan for 4 weeks now, so we`ll be in sunwell anytime now.)
about the extra damage taken from zerker stance i don`t know about sunwell. altho i don`t really see myself going very low on stamina anytime soon(below 12k raidbuffed). getting the 3 sunwell T6 parts i`ll loose 92 stamina, and getting a new neck i`ll loose another 24. wich will bring me to 9800 or so unbuffed. replace some of the 0sta items with vindicator items wich aren`t that much worse dps for a warrior and you`ll be fine imo. again, spoken from a pre-sunwell pow.
Edit: for the lazy ones my stats are 34.30% crit, 1842ap, 122 hitrating and almost 1200 armor ignore atm unbuffed in zerker stance
got a question about what neck to get as replacment for my [Pendant of the Perilous]. i have access to both [Choker of Serrated Blades] and [Choker of Endless Nightmares]?
i presonally like the supremus neck because of it`s hitrating, seeing as it`ll be one of the few items i`ll wear with hit endgame.
also wich cloak should i use? have [Dory's Embrace] atm, is [Shadowmoon Destroyer's Drape] enough of a upgrade for me as a arms warrior to use dkp on or should i start saving for sunwell loot?(farmed illidan for 4 weeks now, so we`ll be in sunwell anytime now.)
about the extra damage taken from zerker stance i don`t know about sunwell. altho i don`t really see myself going very low on stamina anytime soon(below 12k raidbuffed). getting the 3 sunwell T6 parts i`ll loose 92 stamina, and getting a new neck i`ll loose another 24. wich will bring me to 9800 or so unbuffed. replace some of the 0sta items with vindicator items wich aren`t that much worse dps for a warrior and you`ll be fine imo. again, spoken from a pre-sunwell pow.
Edit: for the lazy ones my stats are 34.30% crit, 1842ap, 122 hitrating and almost 1200 armor ignore atm unbuffed in zerker stance
I'd take the Choker, but hold off on Shadowmoon for a bit, let the rogues/hunters take it IMO, Dory's is pretty damn good as arms(Unless no rogues need it, its your call, Shadowmoon is a nice cloak)
The illidan ring wouldn't hurt either, has high ArP+hit
Also
Nice shoulder enchant, haha.
The illidan ring wouldn't hurt either, has high ArP+hit
Also
Nice shoulder enchant, haha.
@ Dianne and Cranberry
As a sidenote, [Vengeance Wrap] is a fantastic back item that seems to go overlooked, don't think that [Dory's Embrace] is your only option prior to [Shadowmoon Destroyer's Drape].
Please don't forget that the members of these forums have provided tools for you to answer your own questions. All it takes is some time. If you don't have this already, go to this thread and download the spreadsheet. Plug in your own gear/spec and swap out items to find the best set up with the upgrades available to you.
As a sidenote, [Vengeance Wrap] is a fantastic back item that seems to go overlooked, don't think that [Dory's Embrace] is your only option prior to [Shadowmoon Destroyer's Drape].
Please don't forget that the members of these forums have provided tools for you to answer your own questions. All it takes is some time. If you don't have this already, go to this thread and download the spreadsheet. Plug in your own gear/spec and swap out items to find the best set up with the upgrades available to you.
To all warriors out there that think about speccing Sword-Spec DW-Fury (26/35)
I tested it this week on 2 days, will spec 17/44 for sunday (because Azgalor and Archimonde are aggrocapping me otherwise) and test it again next week. My experiences are, that Death Wish brings you ahead 17/44 spec, when the fights are short enough (Akama, Teron, Rage Winterchill, Anetheron) or have phases where you do zero damage and then come in again (Illidan, perhaps RoS because of P2, Gurtogg). Sword spec along with the -10% Aggro you lose is sometimes VERY spiky in aggro. You'll sometimes be 10-20% under the tank in aggro, then have some lucky WF-Swordspec critchains and pull aggro off the tank (but this is rather bad luck). The other thing is, you lose 250 ap and overall 10% AP. Sword spec and Death Wish need to balance this, and can in shorter fights as mentioned before. Sword spec will give you lots of rage, you will have spare rage because you don't use Rampage. So with the right gear (I think you need at least 200 to 230 hit to play well with this spec) and some haste items, that push sword spec further, and right usage of Death Wish, I think 26/35 can pull ahead of 17/44. The spec is A LOT steadier in almost everything but aggro. The aggro is the only problem with this spec - the damage is nice, it's making a lot fun to play and Death Wish kicks ass, but when you have aggro problems you simply need to wait at the start of the fight, or make damage breaks. The biggest problem is, when your aggro grows to the end of the fight and you simply need to make a damage break, otherwise pulling aggro when Death Wish + Recklessness and executing sub 20% of the boss. However, my biggest problems were bosses that have aggro resets: RoS, Gurtogg, sometimes Illidan, the other bosses going easy. There you will need either damage stops at the start and/or damage stops in the middle of the fight to execute with cooldowns sub 20%.
I think 26/35-spec will have a shiny future in Sunwell, because there are almost no bosses (although I don't know anything about Kil'jaeden), with kind of any aggro resets, except perhaps for Felmyst (?).
Note: I played with 198 hit, two S3 weapons (slow and fast for maximum sword spec). The best weapon setup will easily be with both Slow Mainhand and Warglaive, or double Warglaive.
I think 26/35-spec will have a shiny future in Sunwell, because there are almost no bosses (although I don't know anything about Kil'jaeden), with kind of any aggro resets, except perhaps for Felmyst (?).
Note: I played with 198 hit, two S3 weapons (slow and fast for maximum sword spec). The best weapon setup will easily be with both Slow Mainhand and Warglaive, or double Warglaive.
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Originally Posted by Tiranar
@ Dianne and Cranberry
As a sidenote, [Vengeance Wrap] is a fantastic back item that seems to go overlooked, don't think that [Dory's Embrace] is your only option prior to [Shadowmoon Destroyer's Drape]. |
You can basically skip all of the other cloaks between dinging 70 and killing Gorefiend if you just spend some money on a Vengeance Wrap or a Cloak of Darkness.
Edited onPatch 2.4.2
Okay lets talk about the future of a DPS warrior.
Leaked warrior talents are out.
Fury
Titan's Grip: Dual Wield 2-Handed weapons and attack slower with them. Attack less slow up to 20% slower with full talent ponts.
Assumptions:
Shift normalization from 2.4 to 3.6
Shift swing avg speed from 2.6 to 4.3
Implications:
Unpredictable and/or spikey rage generation
Very high whirlwind damage, possibly outdamaging bloodthirst
Attack speed so slow flurry uptime will be very high
Benefit of having stat pool of 2 2-Handed weapons
Improved slam and use of slam will be viable
Heroic strike will become increasingly difficult to use effectively
Executing with Titan-Grip weapons will not be effective at all, will have to switch to fast/fast
Bloodsurge: Fully talented, a Bloodthirst crit will make your next slam instant.
Implications:
Along with the new viability of improved slam using Titan-Grip will make this talent very useful
Will make the value of crit skyrocket in a sense critting a BT will give you an instant attack
Spending the talent points for this is questionable with the use of improved slam
Furious Resolve: Basically a threat reducer when it comes to raiding, not that important
Intensify Rage: Increases rage generated by damage taken by 10/20%
Implications:
Fights seem to be becoming more and mroe rage damage heavy. Along with the use of well-timed Berserker Rage, can give you much welcomed large rage spikes in between watching paint dry when waiting for your swing timer using Titan-Grip
Heroic Leap: Leap attack dealing 50% weapon damage in an AoE circle
Implications:
Doesn't sound so great for a raid environment depending on rage cost, but it sounds absolutely amazing for adventure-type environments and farming. May work decently in a dps rotation if the cooldown is high and the rage cost is moderate.
Could possibly couple the daze effect with increased damage from heroic strike.
Arms:
Trauma: Fully talented, increases bleed effects on the target of your critical strikes by 30%.
Implications: If your raid has rogues, dps warriors, or feral druids, this talent may be useful, but it doesnt seem too great.
Leaked warrior talents are out.
Fury
Titan's Grip: Dual Wield 2-Handed weapons and attack slower with them. Attack less slow up to 20% slower with full talent ponts.
Assumptions:
Shift normalization from 2.4 to 3.6
Shift swing avg speed from 2.6 to 4.3
Implications:
Unpredictable and/or spikey rage generation
Very high whirlwind damage, possibly outdamaging bloodthirst
Attack speed so slow flurry uptime will be very high
Benefit of having stat pool of 2 2-Handed weapons
Improved slam and use of slam will be viable
Heroic strike will become increasingly difficult to use effectively
Executing with Titan-Grip weapons will not be effective at all, will have to switch to fast/fast
Bloodsurge: Fully talented, a Bloodthirst crit will make your next slam instant.
Implications:
Along with the new viability of improved slam using Titan-Grip will make this talent very useful
Will make the value of crit skyrocket in a sense critting a BT will give you an instant attack
Spending the talent points for this is questionable with the use of improved slam
Furious Resolve: Basically a threat reducer when it comes to raiding, not that important
Intensify Rage: Increases rage generated by damage taken by 10/20%
Implications:
Fights seem to be becoming more and mroe rage damage heavy. Along with the use of well-timed Berserker Rage, can give you much welcomed large rage spikes in between watching paint dry when waiting for your swing timer using Titan-Grip
Heroic Leap: Leap attack dealing 50% weapon damage in an AoE circle
Implications:
Doesn't sound so great for a raid environment depending on rage cost, but it sounds absolutely amazing for adventure-type environments and farming. May work decently in a dps rotation if the cooldown is high and the rage cost is moderate.
Could possibly couple the daze effect with increased damage from heroic strike.
Arms:
Trauma: Fully talented, increases bleed effects on the target of your critical strikes by 30%.
Implications: If your raid has rogues, dps warriors, or feral druids, this talent may be useful, but it doesnt seem too great.
Last edited by landsoul : 05/22/08 at 3:22 PM.
In terms of the fury tree, this is definitely nuts, looks like arms got some interesting stuff, but fury definitely got the juicy tid bits. I like the intensify rage talent(was it on damage incoming or damage done?) If its on damage incoming thats great, seeing as a lot of fights in BC atm have a fairly decent amount of AoE damage(Which I do enjoy time to time because I still raid with some resilience, proccing enrage is quite awesome.)
The potential of bloodsurge is absolutely nuts. I'd definitely like to try out fury in WoTLK if i'm still a warrior! More curiously I'd also like to see what Ashbringer/Frostmourne might look like
Titan Grip go!
Dual wielding 2hs might put a bit of a heavier emphasis on crit to keep flurry up, because a dry streak with titan's grip would be absolutely awful. I dunno, I'm not much of a fury nut, but I'd like to see where WoTLK takes it
The potential of bloodsurge is absolutely nuts. I'd definitely like to try out fury in WoTLK if i'm still a warrior! More curiously I'd also like to see what Ashbringer/Frostmourne might look like
Titan Grip go!Dual wielding 2hs might put a bit of a heavier emphasis on crit to keep flurry up, because a dry streak with titan's grip would be absolutely awful. I dunno, I'm not much of a fury nut, but I'd like to see where WoTLK takes it
These were touted as the "official" warrior talents that were mined from The Burning Crusade. What makes finding Titan Grip this time around different from last time?
They seem to generally make a little more sense this time in terms of what went where, and just in general. Though hurling a weapon would have been badass. Seeing as the warrior ones make a decent amount of sense we're just hoping devs weren't dumb with talents this time around(hello ER, useless for a long ass time, still useless for PvE)
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Originally Posted by Wump
These were touted as the "official" warrior talents that were mined from The Burning Crusade. What makes finding Titan Grip this time around different from last time?
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Originally Posted by Wump
These were touted as the "official" warrior talents that were mined from The Burning Crusade. What makes finding Titan Grip this time around different from last time?
|
I'm still going to wait and see because of so very many unknowns, but it's a nice preview of something.
Hmm, if you can get Titan's Grip with only 50 points in Fury, it might be worth it to skip Heroic leap, Bloodsurge, etc. and get 4/5 2H weapon spec.
Edited onPatch 2.4.2
Eh, nevermind. You can't get Titan's Grip and Sword Spec at level 80 if Titan's is a 51 point talent. Which if real, undoubtedly is at the bottom.
Last edited by Graul : 05/23/08 at 5:43 AM.
It also makes fury a bit more viable for PVP, like it was pre BC. I also saw some more talents / abilities but maybe those were fake? There was one that increased your AP depending on how high your armour is. Which sounds fury-ish.
Wielding 2x 2h may also put more emphasis on the hit cap. A miss with a 2h is a huge loss of rage, but when you hit/crit you can probaly get a full rage bar anyway. Time will tell I guess, but im very much looking forward to dualwielding 2h'ers. Lets hope it stays in this time.
Wielding 2x 2h may also put more emphasis on the hit cap. A miss with a 2h is a huge loss of rage, but when you hit/crit you can probaly get a full rage bar anyway. Time will tell I guess, but im very much looking forward to dualwielding 2h'ers. Lets hope it stays in this time.
Would instant slams from bloodsurge still reset your swingtimer?
If they don't, we could be seeing some insane burst damage from fury in both pvp and pve.
Imagine something like:
whitex2-> improved slam-> bloodthirst-> instant slam-> Whitex2-> Improved slam-> whirlwind, and on top of that windfury.
To make it even more interesting, why not a 25/46 build with slower attack speed, but with extra attacks from swordspec.
If they don't, we could be seeing some insane burst damage from fury in both pvp and pve.
Imagine something like:
whitex2-> improved slam-> bloodthirst-> instant slam-> Whitex2-> Improved slam-> whirlwind, and on top of that windfury.
To make it even more interesting, why not a 25/46 build with slower attack speed, but with extra attacks from swordspec.
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Originally Posted by Doxic
Would instant slams from bloodsurge still reset your swingtimer?
If they don't, we could be seeing some insane burst damage from fury in both pvp and pve. Imagine something like: whitex2-> improved slam-> bloodthirst-> instant slam-> Whitex2-> Improved slam-> whirlwind, and on top of that windfury. To make it even more interesting, why not a 25/46 build with slower attack speed, but with extra attacks from swordspec. |
With the swing timers of 2 2 handed weapons hitting giving you undoubtedly a full rage bar and then not swinging again for 3.6ish seconds then a bloodthirst - slam - ww - slam will become the staple and extremely high PvE dps choice. Its a very clever solution the problems caused by weilding 2 2handers. The downtime waiting between swings for the next instant would be unbearable
Edited onPatch 2.4.2
The problem is if it resets your swing timer. It's somewhat acceptable if they fix it so that it only affects the main hand swing timer. Having your offhand reset as well (which is how it works now) honestly makes the ability to Slam after a crit Bloodthirst, instant or not pretty crappy on paper in any PvE application except for finishing off trash instead of blowing all of a rage surplus on Execute. It might be very nice burst in PvP, but unless the swing timer reset gets resolved, or better yet removed, it doesn't seem that great. I wouldn't be suprised if this (Titan's) was just Blizzard's way of trying to reduce competition for specific items between classes. Instead of drawing from the same pool as Rogues, Shamans, Paladins and Death Knights we would essentially only be infringing upon Paladins and Death Knights.
Last edited by Graul : 05/23/08 at 7:16 AM.
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Originally Posted by Morsexy
The point is muru, kalecgos, twins sometimes, felmyst all pulse damage every 5-10 seconds and its not avoidable.
I find this whole "oh well its more dangerous" or "thats what its supposed to BE man" or some argument like that very out dated. Every single mage in the raid has iceblock now, warlocks can shatter, there have been tons of little changes that balance the game around either A. Fixing imbalance like Invis+Fd + nothing for locks or B. solving complicated issues that are detrimental to everyone of a certain type, healer, dps, or melee. The cleave change was for the better I think we would all agree, and right now, on M'uru, doing what I have to do to make myself viable, on Entropius I take average hits of 2500 damage, vs 2050 or so damage for the rest of the raid. Granted this is with deathwish, recklessness and obviously berserker stance up, but nothing changes the fact that if the raid is taking 2050 damage pulses, I should be taking 2800 pulses, which seems insane. With just berserker stance Id be taking 205 more damage. The real question is, why doesn't an ability like "The Beast Within" confer the same extra damage taking as deathwish, or recklessness? The long and short is this was an ability designed with splash damage encounters in mind, or perhaps PVP, and so that side of it was removed or not even seriously considered, and under the logic currently in place for warriors, it absolutely should be. The long and short is this needs to be evaluated. On M'uru I took a pulse for 2747. The next highest is 2304 ( warrior ) and then a smattering of people around 2070-2111 ( warlock ). I know I personally wish that all of this "more damage inc lawl" crap was plain gone from the game, but I would settle just for a balance in PvE. I can handle that recklessness is THAT insane of an ability, and thus deserves the 20% more damage. What I can't handle is 10% more damage to be in the correct and only damage dealing stance. |
With regards to Titan's Grip:
If these notes do indeed go live, I'm not sure I'm a big fan of it. From a lore perspective, we've never seen it. The barbarian was a D2 character, not a WC one. Hellscream, uber warrior of the horde, wielded *one* 2H axe.
From a gaming point of view, it really chops up the flow of fury. We know it will be huge chunks and spikes of rage, make our dps even more dependent on WF, and while slam might prove more useful, it doesn't mesh well with the 60~>70 transition.
If true, the future of the dps warrior, for me, looks less appealing.
If these notes do indeed go live, I'm not sure I'm a big fan of it. From a lore perspective, we've never seen it. The barbarian was a D2 character, not a WC one. Hellscream, uber warrior of the horde, wielded *one* 2H axe.
From a gaming point of view, it really chops up the flow of fury. We know it will be huge chunks and spikes of rage, make our dps even more dependent on WF, and while slam might prove more useful, it doesn't mesh well with the 60~>70 transition.
If true, the future of the dps warrior, for me, looks less appealing.
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Originally Posted by Mjollnir
With regards to Titan's Grip:
If these notes do indeed go live, I'm not sure I'm a big fan of it. From a lore perspective, we've never seen it. The barbarian was a D2 character, not a WC one. Hellscream, uber warrior of the horde, wielded *one* 2H axe. From a gaming point of view, it really chops up the flow of fury. We know it will be huge chunks and spikes of rage, make our dps even more dependent on WF, and while slam might prove more useful, it doesn't mesh well with the 60~>70 transition. If true, the future of the dps warrior, for me, looks less appealing. |
Sure, we have always gained a great increase in dps from it, but with dual twohanded weapons we will only gain even more.
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Originally Posted by Doxic
but with dual twohanded weapons we will only gain even more.
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But we get WF all the time anyway, so whats the problem?
I also wonder about the wording on titans grip. 20% slower so 20% less damage, or 20% slower so just harder hitting attacks? My guess would be the former. Whenever we get something really nice, there is often a downside. Even if its the former will still have more effective DPS than 2x 1h.
I also wonder about the wording on titans grip. 20% slower so 20% less damage, or 20% slower so just harder hitting attacks? My guess would be the former. Whenever we get something really nice, there is often a downside. Even if its the former will still have more effective DPS than 2x 1h.
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Originally Posted by Rishina
But we get WF all the time anyway, so whats the problem?
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With regards to DW 2H: as a DW Fury, I know rage generation is often spiky enough as is. At 70 in BT gear, there are plenty of times I jump from 30ish rage to 90ish off of MH/OH/WF crits happening inside of the same GCD (case worsened with haste effects). This would only be accentuated with 2Hers, going from rage depravity to rage cap, and thus, nerfing potential dps. For those MS/BF currently raiding, a simple crit usually generates roughly 50-60rage in a raid environment? If OH dps is nerfed by 50, and we witness a WF proc as well, we're looking at 150rage from 0 if the aforementioned takes place. Thus far, I've not seen anyone examine this side of the picture.
[Edit] For clarity: I am demonstrating that the rage generation being as choppy as it is sometimes at 70, will be worse at 80, and that the strike values of 2H will push the rage gained past cap often enough that rage will be lost on a regular basis. While I have provided a simple, albeit extreme example (3x crit from MH/OH/WF), any raiding warrior knows it doesn't take much to be pushing rage cap as is.
The rage calculation is likely to be changed again anyway, as it was before TBC. Otherwise at 80 you will get a full rage bar very fast indeed.
There is the rage spike problem, but thats a problem now. I can go from nothing to a full rage bar with a WF crit and MH crit. The only way it could be fixed is have have rage use the same sort of steady gain as rogues do, and im sure nobody wants that.
There is also as you noted the MS vs Fury argument. Personally I hope WOTLK is back to how it used to be and should be in my opinion. Arms = PVP. Fury = PVE.
There is the rage spike problem, but thats a problem now. I can go from nothing to a full rage bar with a WF crit and MH crit. The only way it could be fixed is have have rage use the same sort of steady gain as rogues do, and im sure nobody wants that.
There is also as you noted the MS vs Fury argument. Personally I hope WOTLK is back to how it used to be and should be in my opinion. Arms = PVP. Fury = PVE.
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Originally Posted by Rishina
There is also as you noted the MS vs Fury argument. Personally I hope WOTLK is back to how it used to be and should be in my opinion. Arms = PVP. Fury = PVE.
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Same as cranberry, first post but been reading these forums for ages.
got a question about what neck to get as replacment for my [Pendant of the Perilous]. i have access to both [Choker of Serrated Blades] and [Choker of Endless Nightmares]?
i presonally like the supremus neck because of it`s hitrating, seeing as it`ll be one of the few items i`ll wear with hit endgame.
also wich cloak should i use? have [Dory's Embrace] atm, is [Shadowmoon Destroyer's Drape] enough of a upgrade for me as a arms warrior to use dkp on or should i start saving for sunwell loot?(farmed illidan for 4 weeks now, so we`ll be in sunwell anytime now.)
about the extra damage taken from zerker stance i don`t know about sunwell. altho i don`t really see myself going very low on stamina anytime soon(below 12k raidbuffed). getting the 3 sunwell T6 parts i`ll loose 92 stamina, and getting a new neck i`ll loose another 24. wich will bring me to 9800 or so unbuffed. replace some of the 0sta items with vindicator items wich aren`t that much worse dps for a warrior and you`ll be fine imo. again, spoken from a pre-sunwell pow.
Edit: for the lazy ones my stats are 34.30% crit, 1842ap, 122 hitrating and almost 1200 armor ignore atm unbuffed in zerker stance
got a question about what neck to get as replacment for my [Pendant of the Perilous]. i have access to both [Choker of Serrated Blades] and [Choker of Endless Nightmares]?
i presonally like the supremus neck because of it`s hitrating, seeing as it`ll be one of the few items i`ll wear with hit endgame.
also wich cloak should i use? have [Dory's Embrace] atm, is [Shadowmoon Destroyer's Drape] enough of a upgrade for me as a arms warrior to use dkp on or should i start saving for sunwell loot?(farmed illidan for 4 weeks now, so we`ll be in sunwell anytime now.)
about the extra damage taken from zerker stance i don`t know about sunwell. altho i don`t really see myself going very low on stamina anytime soon(below 12k raidbuffed). getting the 3 sunwell T6 parts i`ll loose 92 stamina, and getting a new neck i`ll loose another 24. wich will bring me to 9800 or so unbuffed. replace some of the 0sta items with vindicator items wich aren`t that much worse dps for a warrior and you`ll be fine imo. again, spoken from a pre-sunwell pow.
Edit: for the lazy ones my stats are 34.30% crit, 1842ap, 122 hitrating and almost 1200 armor ignore atm unbuffed in zerker stance
I'd take the Choker, but hold off on Shadowmoon for a bit, let the rogues/hunters take it IMO, Dory's is pretty damn good as arms(Unless no rogues need it, its your call, Shadowmoon is a nice cloak)
The illidan ring wouldn't hurt either, has high ArP+hit
Also
Nice shoulder enchant, haha.
The illidan ring wouldn't hurt either, has high ArP+hit
Also
Nice shoulder enchant, haha.
@ Dianne and Cranberry
As a sidenote, [Vengeance Wrap] is a fantastic back item that seems to go overlooked, don't think that [Dory's Embrace] is your only option prior to [Shadowmoon Destroyer's Drape].
Please don't forget that the members of these forums have provided tools for you to answer your own questions. All it takes is some time. If you don't have this already, go to this thread and download the spreadsheet. Plug in your own gear/spec and swap out items to find the best set up with the upgrades available to you.
As a sidenote, [Vengeance Wrap] is a fantastic back item that seems to go overlooked, don't think that [Dory's Embrace] is your only option prior to [Shadowmoon Destroyer's Drape].
Please don't forget that the members of these forums have provided tools for you to answer your own questions. All it takes is some time. If you don't have this already, go to this thread and download the spreadsheet. Plug in your own gear/spec and swap out items to find the best set up with the upgrades available to you.
To all warriors out there that think about speccing Sword-Spec DW-Fury (26/35)
I tested it this week on 2 days, will spec 17/44 for sunday (because Azgalor and Archimonde are aggrocapping me otherwise) and test it again next week. My experiences are, that Death Wish brings you ahead 17/44 spec, when the fights are short enough (Akama, Teron, Rage Winterchill, Anetheron) or have phases where you do zero damage and then come in again (Illidan, perhaps RoS because of P2, Gurtogg). Sword spec along with the -10% Aggro you lose is sometimes VERY spiky in aggro. You'll sometimes be 10-20% under the tank in aggro, then have some lucky WF-Swordspec critchains and pull aggro off the tank (but this is rather bad luck). The other thing is, you lose 250 ap and overall 10% AP. Sword spec and Death Wish need to balance this, and can in shorter fights as mentioned before. Sword spec will give you lots of rage, you will have spare rage because you don't use Rampage. So with the right gear (I think you need at least 200 to 230 hit to play well with this spec) and some haste items, that push sword spec further, and right usage of Death Wish, I think 26/35 can pull ahead of 17/44. The spec is A LOT steadier in almost everything but aggro. The aggro is the only problem with this spec - the damage is nice, it's making a lot fun to play and Death Wish kicks ass, but when you have aggro problems you simply need to wait at the start of the fight, or make damage breaks. The biggest problem is, when your aggro grows to the end of the fight and you simply need to make a damage break, otherwise pulling aggro when Death Wish + Recklessness and executing sub 20% of the boss. However, my biggest problems were bosses that have aggro resets: RoS, Gurtogg, sometimes Illidan, the other bosses going easy. There you will need either damage stops at the start and/or damage stops in the middle of the fight to execute with cooldowns sub 20%.
I think 26/35-spec will have a shiny future in Sunwell, because there are almost no bosses (although I don't know anything about Kil'jaeden), with kind of any aggro resets, except perhaps for Felmyst (?).
Note: I played with 198 hit, two S3 weapons (slow and fast for maximum sword spec). The best weapon setup will easily be with both Slow Mainhand and Warglaive, or double Warglaive.
I think 26/35-spec will have a shiny future in Sunwell, because there are almost no bosses (although I don't know anything about Kil'jaeden), with kind of any aggro resets, except perhaps for Felmyst (?).
Note: I played with 198 hit, two S3 weapons (slow and fast for maximum sword spec). The best weapon setup will easily be with both Slow Mainhand and Warglaive, or double Warglaive.
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Originally Posted by Tiranar
@ Dianne and Cranberry
As a sidenote, [Vengeance Wrap] is a fantastic back item that seems to go overlooked, don't think that [Dory's Embrace] is your only option prior to [Shadowmoon Destroyer's Drape]. |
You can basically skip all of the other cloaks between dinging 70 and killing Gorefiend if you just spend some money on a Vengeance Wrap or a Cloak of Darkness.
Edited onPatch 2.4.2
Okay lets talk about the future of a DPS warrior.
Leaked warrior talents are out.
Fury
Titan's Grip: Dual Wield 2-Handed weapons and attack slower with them. Attack less slow up to 20% slower with full talent ponts.
Assumptions:
Shift normalization from 2.4 to 3.6
Shift swing avg speed from 2.6 to 4.3
Implications:
Unpredictable and/or spikey rage generation
Very high whirlwind damage, possibly outdamaging bloodthirst
Attack speed so slow flurry uptime will be very high
Benefit of having stat pool of 2 2-Handed weapons
Improved slam and use of slam will be viable
Heroic strike will become increasingly difficult to use effectively
Executing with Titan-Grip weapons will not be effective at all, will have to switch to fast/fast
Bloodsurge: Fully talented, a Bloodthirst crit will make your next slam instant.
Implications:
Along with the new viability of improved slam using Titan-Grip will make this talent very useful
Will make the value of crit skyrocket in a sense critting a BT will give you an instant attack
Spending the talent points for this is questionable with the use of improved slam
Furious Resolve: Basically a threat reducer when it comes to raiding, not that important
Intensify Rage: Increases rage generated by damage taken by 10/20%
Implications:
Fights seem to be becoming more and mroe rage damage heavy. Along with the use of well-timed Berserker Rage, can give you much welcomed large rage spikes in between watching paint dry when waiting for your swing timer using Titan-Grip
Heroic Leap: Leap attack dealing 50% weapon damage in an AoE circle
Implications:
Doesn't sound so great for a raid environment depending on rage cost, but it sounds absolutely amazing for adventure-type environments and farming. May work decently in a dps rotation if the cooldown is high and the rage cost is moderate.
Could possibly couple the daze effect with increased damage from heroic strike.
Arms:
Trauma: Fully talented, increases bleed effects on the target of your critical strikes by 30%.
Implications: If your raid has rogues, dps warriors, or feral druids, this talent may be useful, but it doesnt seem too great.
Leaked warrior talents are out.
Fury
Titan's Grip: Dual Wield 2-Handed weapons and attack slower with them. Attack less slow up to 20% slower with full talent ponts.
Assumptions:
Shift normalization from 2.4 to 3.6
Shift swing avg speed from 2.6 to 4.3
Implications:
Unpredictable and/or spikey rage generation
Very high whirlwind damage, possibly outdamaging bloodthirst
Attack speed so slow flurry uptime will be very high
Benefit of having stat pool of 2 2-Handed weapons
Improved slam and use of slam will be viable
Heroic strike will become increasingly difficult to use effectively
Executing with Titan-Grip weapons will not be effective at all, will have to switch to fast/fast
Bloodsurge: Fully talented, a Bloodthirst crit will make your next slam instant.
Implications:
Along with the new viability of improved slam using Titan-Grip will make this talent very useful
Will make the value of crit skyrocket in a sense critting a BT will give you an instant attack
Spending the talent points for this is questionable with the use of improved slam
Furious Resolve: Basically a threat reducer when it comes to raiding, not that important
Intensify Rage: Increases rage generated by damage taken by 10/20%
Implications:
Fights seem to be becoming more and mroe rage damage heavy. Along with the use of well-timed Berserker Rage, can give you much welcomed large rage spikes in between watching paint dry when waiting for your swing timer using Titan-Grip
Heroic Leap: Leap attack dealing 50% weapon damage in an AoE circle
Implications:
Doesn't sound so great for a raid environment depending on rage cost, but it sounds absolutely amazing for adventure-type environments and farming. May work decently in a dps rotation if the cooldown is high and the rage cost is moderate.
Could possibly couple the daze effect with increased damage from heroic strike.
Arms:
Trauma: Fully talented, increases bleed effects on the target of your critical strikes by 30%.
Implications: If your raid has rogues, dps warriors, or feral druids, this talent may be useful, but it doesnt seem too great.
Last edited by landsoul : 05/22/08 at 3:22 PM.
In terms of the fury tree, this is definitely nuts, looks like arms got some interesting stuff, but fury definitely got the juicy tid bits. I like the intensify rage talent(was it on damage incoming or damage done?) If its on damage incoming thats great, seeing as a lot of fights in BC atm have a fairly decent amount of AoE damage(Which I do enjoy time to time because I still raid with some resilience, proccing enrage is quite awesome.)
The potential of bloodsurge is absolutely nuts. I'd definitely like to try out fury in WoTLK if i'm still a warrior! More curiously I'd also like to see what Ashbringer/Frostmourne might look like Titan Grip go!
Dual wielding 2hs might put a bit of a heavier emphasis on crit to keep flurry up, because a dry streak with titan's grip would be absolutely awful. I dunno, I'm not much of a fury nut, but I'd like to see where WoTLK takes it
The potential of bloodsurge is absolutely nuts. I'd definitely like to try out fury in WoTLK if i'm still a warrior! More curiously I'd also like to see what Ashbringer/Frostmourne might look like
Titan Grip go!Dual wielding 2hs might put a bit of a heavier emphasis on crit to keep flurry up, because a dry streak with titan's grip would be absolutely awful. I dunno, I'm not much of a fury nut, but I'd like to see where WoTLK takes it
These were touted as the "official" warrior talents that were mined from The Burning Crusade. What makes finding Titan Grip this time around different from last time?
They seem to generally make a little more sense this time in terms of what went where, and just in general. Though hurling a weapon would have been badass. Seeing as the warrior ones make a decent amount of sense we're just hoping devs weren't dumb with talents this time around(hello ER, useless for a long ass time, still useless for PvE)
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Originally Posted by Wump
These were touted as the "official" warrior talents that were mined from The Burning Crusade. What makes finding Titan Grip this time around different from last time?
|
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Originally Posted by Wump
These were touted as the "official" warrior talents that were mined from The Burning Crusade. What makes finding Titan Grip this time around different from last time?
|
I'm still going to wait and see because of so very many unknowns, but it's a nice preview of something.
Hmm, if you can get Titan's Grip with only 50 points in Fury, it might be worth it to skip Heroic leap, Bloodsurge, etc. and get 4/5 2H weapon spec.
Edited onPatch 2.4.2
Eh, nevermind. You can't get Titan's Grip and Sword Spec at level 80 if Titan's is a 51 point talent. Which if real, undoubtedly is at the bottom.
Last edited by Graul : 05/23/08 at 5:43 AM.
It also makes fury a bit more viable for PVP, like it was pre BC. I also saw some more talents / abilities but maybe those were fake? There was one that increased your AP depending on how high your armour is. Which sounds fury-ish.
Wielding 2x 2h may also put more emphasis on the hit cap. A miss with a 2h is a huge loss of rage, but when you hit/crit you can probaly get a full rage bar anyway. Time will tell I guess, but im very much looking forward to dualwielding 2h'ers. Lets hope it stays in this time.
Wielding 2x 2h may also put more emphasis on the hit cap. A miss with a 2h is a huge loss of rage, but when you hit/crit you can probaly get a full rage bar anyway. Time will tell I guess, but im very much looking forward to dualwielding 2h'ers. Lets hope it stays in this time.
Would instant slams from bloodsurge still reset your swingtimer?
If they don't, we could be seeing some insane burst damage from fury in both pvp and pve.
Imagine something like:
whitex2-> improved slam-> bloodthirst-> instant slam-> Whitex2-> Improved slam-> whirlwind, and on top of that windfury.
To make it even more interesting, why not a 25/46 build with slower attack speed, but with extra attacks from swordspec.
If they don't, we could be seeing some insane burst damage from fury in both pvp and pve.
Imagine something like:
whitex2-> improved slam-> bloodthirst-> instant slam-> Whitex2-> Improved slam-> whirlwind, and on top of that windfury.
To make it even more interesting, why not a 25/46 build with slower attack speed, but with extra attacks from swordspec.
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Originally Posted by Doxic
Would instant slams from bloodsurge still reset your swingtimer?
If they don't, we could be seeing some insane burst damage from fury in both pvp and pve. Imagine something like: whitex2-> improved slam-> bloodthirst-> instant slam-> Whitex2-> Improved slam-> whirlwind, and on top of that windfury. To make it even more interesting, why not a 25/46 build with slower attack speed, but with extra attacks from swordspec. |
With the swing timers of 2 2 handed weapons hitting giving you undoubtedly a full rage bar and then not swinging again for 3.6ish seconds then a bloodthirst - slam - ww - slam will become the staple and extremely high PvE dps choice. Its a very clever solution the problems caused by weilding 2 2handers. The downtime waiting between swings for the next instant would be unbearable
Edited onPatch 2.4.2
The problem is if it resets your swing timer. It's somewhat acceptable if they fix it so that it only affects the main hand swing timer. Having your offhand reset as well (which is how it works now) honestly makes the ability to Slam after a crit Bloodthirst, instant or not pretty crappy on paper in any PvE application except for finishing off trash instead of blowing all of a rage surplus on Execute. It might be very nice burst in PvP, but unless the swing timer reset gets resolved, or better yet removed, it doesn't seem that great. I wouldn't be suprised if this (Titan's) was just Blizzard's way of trying to reduce competition for specific items between classes. Instead of drawing from the same pool as Rogues, Shamans, Paladins and Death Knights we would essentially only be infringing upon Paladins and Death Knights.
Last edited by Graul : 05/23/08 at 7:16 AM.
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Originally Posted by Morsexy
The point is muru, kalecgos, twins sometimes, felmyst all pulse damage every 5-10 seconds and its not avoidable.
I find this whole "oh well its more dangerous" or "thats what its supposed to BE man" or some argument like that very out dated. Every single mage in the raid has iceblock now, warlocks can shatter, there have been tons of little changes that balance the game around either A. Fixing imbalance like Invis+Fd + nothing for locks or B. solving complicated issues that are detrimental to everyone of a certain type, healer, dps, or melee. The cleave change was for the better I think we would all agree, and right now, on M'uru, doing what I have to do to make myself viable, on Entropius I take average hits of 2500 damage, vs 2050 or so damage for the rest of the raid. Granted this is with deathwish, recklessness and obviously berserker stance up, but nothing changes the fact that if the raid is taking 2050 damage pulses, I should be taking 2800 pulses, which seems insane. With just berserker stance Id be taking 205 more damage. The real question is, why doesn't an ability like "The Beast Within" confer the same extra damage taking as deathwish, or recklessness? The long and short is this was an ability designed with splash damage encounters in mind, or perhaps PVP, and so that side of it was removed or not even seriously considered, and under the logic currently in place for warriors, it absolutely should be. The long and short is this needs to be evaluated. On M'uru I took a pulse for 2747. The next highest is 2304 ( warrior ) and then a smattering of people around 2070-2111 ( warlock ). I know I personally wish that all of this "more damage inc lawl" crap was plain gone from the game, but I would settle just for a balance in PvE. I can handle that recklessness is THAT insane of an ability, and thus deserves the 20% more damage. What I can't handle is 10% more damage to be in the correct and only damage dealing stance. |
With regards to Titan's Grip:
If these notes do indeed go live, I'm not sure I'm a big fan of it. From a lore perspective, we've never seen it. The barbarian was a D2 character, not a WC one. Hellscream, uber warrior of the horde, wielded *one* 2H axe.
From a gaming point of view, it really chops up the flow of fury. We know it will be huge chunks and spikes of rage, make our dps even more dependent on WF, and while slam might prove more useful, it doesn't mesh well with the 60~>70 transition.
If true, the future of the dps warrior, for me, looks less appealing.
If these notes do indeed go live, I'm not sure I'm a big fan of it. From a lore perspective, we've never seen it. The barbarian was a D2 character, not a WC one. Hellscream, uber warrior of the horde, wielded *one* 2H axe.
From a gaming point of view, it really chops up the flow of fury. We know it will be huge chunks and spikes of rage, make our dps even more dependent on WF, and while slam might prove more useful, it doesn't mesh well with the 60~>70 transition.
If true, the future of the dps warrior, for me, looks less appealing.
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Originally Posted by Mjollnir
With regards to Titan's Grip:
If these notes do indeed go live, I'm not sure I'm a big fan of it. From a lore perspective, we've never seen it. The barbarian was a D2 character, not a WC one. Hellscream, uber warrior of the horde, wielded *one* 2H axe. From a gaming point of view, it really chops up the flow of fury. We know it will be huge chunks and spikes of rage, make our dps even more dependent on WF, and while slam might prove more useful, it doesn't mesh well with the 60~>70 transition. If true, the future of the dps warrior, for me, looks less appealing. |
Sure, we have always gained a great increase in dps from it, but with dual twohanded weapons we will only gain even more.
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Originally Posted by Doxic
but with dual twohanded weapons we will only gain even more.
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But we get WF all the time anyway, so whats the problem?
I also wonder about the wording on titans grip. 20% slower so 20% less damage, or 20% slower so just harder hitting attacks? My guess would be the former. Whenever we get something really nice, there is often a downside. Even if its the former will still have more effective DPS than 2x 1h.
I also wonder about the wording on titans grip. 20% slower so 20% less damage, or 20% slower so just harder hitting attacks? My guess would be the former. Whenever we get something really nice, there is often a downside. Even if its the former will still have more effective DPS than 2x 1h.
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Originally Posted by Rishina
But we get WF all the time anyway, so whats the problem?
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With regards to DW 2H: as a DW Fury, I know rage generation is often spiky enough as is. At 70 in BT gear, there are plenty of times I jump from 30ish rage to 90ish off of MH/OH/WF crits happening inside of the same GCD (case worsened with haste effects). This would only be accentuated with 2Hers, going from rage depravity to rage cap, and thus, nerfing potential dps. For those MS/BF currently raiding, a simple crit usually generates roughly 50-60rage in a raid environment? If OH dps is nerfed by 50, and we witness a WF proc as well, we're looking at 150rage from 0 if the aforementioned takes place. Thus far, I've not seen anyone examine this side of the picture.
[Edit] For clarity: I am demonstrating that the rage generation being as choppy as it is sometimes at 70, will be worse at 80, and that the strike values of 2H will push the rage gained past cap often enough that rage will be lost on a regular basis. While I have provided a simple, albeit extreme example (3x crit from MH/OH/WF), any raiding warrior knows it doesn't take much to be pushing rage cap as is.
The rage calculation is likely to be changed again anyway, as it was before TBC. Otherwise at 80 you will get a full rage bar very fast indeed.
There is the rage spike problem, but thats a problem now. I can go from nothing to a full rage bar with a WF crit and MH crit. The only way it could be fixed is have have rage use the same sort of steady gain as rogues do, and im sure nobody wants that.
There is also as you noted the MS vs Fury argument. Personally I hope WOTLK is back to how it used to be and should be in my opinion. Arms = PVP. Fury = PVE.
There is the rage spike problem, but thats a problem now. I can go from nothing to a full rage bar with a WF crit and MH crit. The only way it could be fixed is have have rage use the same sort of steady gain as rogues do, and im sure nobody wants that.
There is also as you noted the MS vs Fury argument. Personally I hope WOTLK is back to how it used to be and should be in my opinion. Arms = PVP. Fury = PVE.
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Originally Posted by Rishina
There is also as you noted the MS vs Fury argument. Personally I hope WOTLK is back to how it used to be and should be in my opinion. Arms = PVP. Fury = PVE.
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Originally Posted by Rishina
The rage calculation is likely to be changed again anyway, as it was before TBC. Otherwise at 80 you will get a full rage bar very fast indeed.
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Unless something else comes into play where rage gain is calculated differently for DW 2H then rage cap/depravity will be a serious issue. On the flip side, if we get smaller chunks of rage, then we are losing half of the benefit of DW 2Hers in the first place. The only thing I would see happening to counter this is to raise the rage cap to something like 200, but that's not a realistic change either, given the way our cousin rogues are wired.
It'll be interesting to say the least where WotLK takes everyone, and perhaps I'm not thinking enough outside of the box, but there just appears to be glaring issues with TG. Again, this could just be me.
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Originally Posted by Graul
it's more of a "do or die now" burst playstyle instead of a draining/endurance style.
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Originally Posted by Mjollnir
Arms has both of these elements. Fury will never be endurance capable (unless Blood Craze gets a mad buff?).
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Seems to me that Titans grip is in the wrong tree.
Hopefully they move it to arms where it belongs.
Hopefully they move it to arms where it belongs.
@Graul: The point I was getting at is that Arms is still going to be able to provide both burst and survivability. Fury is only going to provide burst. There will be varying levels of course, done in different ways, but current gameplay and 'leaked' xpac notes do not lead me to believe there are any [significant] changes to the current model.
This one time, in patch notes, I read about Deathwish being removed from the Fury tree.
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Originally Posted by Mardraum
Hopefully they move it to arms where it belongs.
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Originally Posted by Graul
Blizzard stated that they wanted 2h DPS to be fairly equal to DW. Why, I have no idea, but it's their words, and it seems like their goal with BF was to make it equal to DW output. The reverse is happening until a Fury Warrior has the Warglaive *set* or unless you run an unusual amount of casters in your raids however. I can't really speak for anyone who normally raided with a 2h, but it seems like the viability issue was a matter of not wanting to have to compete with other DW users as well as having a weapon to PvP with or simply using their PvP weapon for PvE. Titans Grip will basically all but remove that argument (unless BF simply scales too well at 80). People will have their 2h that maybe they gained through Arena (paired with some other) and also be able to spec the highest Warrior raid DPS as Fury. This also gives Fury more PvP viability than it has now, although it remains to be seen if it will be enough to compete with Arms in the long run or if it's more of a "do or die now" burst playstyle instead of a draining/endurance style.
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BF is really overestimated as I said here and on blizz warrior forums multiple times. Looking at the parses you need 17-20k physical dps on fight like brutallus for BF to actually make a difference. It can happen, but its far from given. Fury warriors do ~2700 dps without glaives (at least i can), Arms gets to 2k, sometimes a bit higher. 700/0.04= 17500, not counting ruptures deep wounds lacerates from tanks etc. So on a fight with ~30k total dps , unless 2/3 is coming from physical sources , BF isnt really worth it. For us yes - we run 2 melee group+hunter group+1 caster group often... We do have BF warrior. For other guilds, you can really argue if BF is useful.
Titans grip aside - the talent tree that was leaked shows another 10% threat reduction - that alone could put me close to 3k with just t6 boots/mounting vengeance. My last kills ALL were riding threat on tanks - and I dont mean occasional threat problem - i sit around 100% threat witha bit loose heroic strike use then when i start pushing it i get above. Last kill on this wws Wow Web Stats I was above 105% threat on omen 100% of the fight beside very start when MDs pulled tanks ahead. One moment i was even above 110% (didnt pull though - either omen is wrong, or the fact that you can attack Brutallus from further away then he can melee you , makes it count the aggro as "ranged" in that case).
Now for Titans grip - I wouldnt mind a fury talent extending rage bar. Given warrior cooldown limitation and rage mechanics, some deep fury talent increasing rage maximum amount doesnt seem overpowered or strange. In its current state Titans grip just doesnt seem useful.
Fury talents I would like to see to solve some problems:
- Getting rid of zerker stance damage taken increase , incorporated into one of the talents with threat.
- Improved Rampage - 5 point talent granting 20/40/60/80/100% of Rampage AP to the party
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Originally Posted by Mjollnir
This one time, in patch notes, I read about Deathwish being removed from the Fury tree.
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2700dps on Brut? Highest on file is 2600+. I can't manage to view the ability breakdown but it would be safe to assume s/he is Fury. I have also seen Arms posted with putting up 2300+ on the same encounter. Knowing this, BF is still king. (WWS aren't loading for me atm).
As far as improvements to our class, I don't know of anyone who wouldn't agree the dmg redux on zerk stance would be overdue. I would love to see us get 'free' Rampage much like a Spooky's shadow spells stack 5 'shadow sunders'. We should get a stacking Rampage that adds a stack (up to 5) or refreshes each time we crit, rather than a rage loss of 20 every 20-25sec.
That being said, I can agree a Fury needs some sort of group utility. BShout is decent but doesn't scale. A Fury is far outpaced these days by MS/BF and Retadins providing raid-wide benefits, and Ferals and especially Enh Shams providing Totems/UR/Lust. Either that, or boost individual dps and provide on demand threat reduction. I would be partial to the former personally. The once staple dps warrior in 40mans has a declining habitat these days.
If Deathwish is back, I express my joy. It has been missed.
Regardless this is all speculation, but interesting nonetheless to explore some of the possibilities to come.
As far as improvements to our class, I don't know of anyone who wouldn't agree the dmg redux on zerk stance would be overdue. I would love to see us get 'free' Rampage much like a Spooky's shadow spells stack 5 'shadow sunders'. We should get a stacking Rampage that adds a stack (up to 5) or refreshes each time we crit, rather than a rage loss of 20 every 20-25sec.
That being said, I can agree a Fury needs some sort of group utility. BShout is decent but doesn't scale. A Fury is far outpaced these days by MS/BF and Retadins providing raid-wide benefits, and Ferals and especially Enh Shams providing Totems/UR/Lust. Either that, or boost individual dps and provide on demand threat reduction. I would be partial to the former personally. The once staple dps warrior in 40mans has a declining habitat these days.
If Deathwish is back, I express my joy. It has been missed.
Regardless this is all speculation, but interesting nonetheless to explore some of the possibilities to come.
Ive never seen 2300+ arms wws. My link is 2684 under 2.4 parsing, and
- i miss a lot of sunwell gear (not even 4 piece t6), and using both badge claws (not a single mounting vengeance lol... not to mention )
- 2 heroisms only too, which is normal for our melee so yea.
- 1 hunter so aggro sucked - could pull 50-100 more if not for that.
I dont feel a problem with competition with arms. They do significantly less (even if 2300 was true, a fury warrior with top end gear can push 3k) dps, and they dont scale. If you have enough physical dps, then unless you are running exceptionally hunter heavy, you can fit 2nd warrior for bshout etc - and it will be an upgrade over rogue. If you have low melee, then BF warrior isnt really needed. Also note that brutallus due to full stacked dps groups synergies, and 0 movement, is PERFECT encounter for arms. Ive seen 2500+ on twins for fury, never above 1800 for arms - just the small movements here and there and a bit worse synergies and they drop... Either way there is room for ONE arms warrior, and ONE ret paladin in raid.
Ferals are not a competition at all in terms of dps honestly. Enhancement Shamans are different... I honestly think the class/spec is broken. They bring by far most buffs, and they can go over 2500 on brutallus (ours does, although not consistently - the report had her at 2450 i think. Although due to debuffs she couldnt use FS, and she attacked for 2 mins from front (we had a warlock died and she took his spot for soaking since we really push it with melee - a dead soaker has to be replaced or it gets risky). In fact unless your rogues have warglaives its up to a point that replacing rogues with ANOTHER enh shamans (the group already has one) is a raid dps boost - thats pretty stupid imo.
- i miss a lot of sunwell gear (not even 4 piece t6), and using both badge claws (not a single mounting vengeance lol... not to mention )
- 2 heroisms only too, which is normal for our melee so yea.
- 1 hunter so aggro sucked - could pull 50-100 more if not for that.
I dont feel a problem with competition with arms. They do significantly less (even if 2300 was true, a fury warrior with top end gear can push 3k) dps, and they dont scale. If you have enough physical dps, then unless you are running exceptionally hunter heavy, you can fit 2nd warrior for bshout etc - and it will be an upgrade over rogue. If you have low melee, then BF warrior isnt really needed. Also note that brutallus due to full stacked dps groups synergies, and 0 movement, is PERFECT encounter for arms. Ive seen 2500+ on twins for fury, never above 1800 for arms - just the small movements here and there and a bit worse synergies and they drop... Either way there is room for ONE arms warrior, and ONE ret paladin in raid.
Ferals are not a competition at all in terms of dps honestly. Enhancement Shamans are different... I honestly think the class/spec is broken. They bring by far most buffs, and they can go over 2500 on brutallus (ours does, although not consistently - the report had her at 2450 i think. Although due to debuffs she couldnt use FS, and she attacked for 2 mins from front (we had a warlock died and she took his spot for soaking since we really push it with melee - a dead soaker has to be replaced or it gets risky). In fact unless your rogues have warglaives its up to a point that replacing rogues with ANOTHER enh shamans (the group already has one) is a raid dps boost - thats pretty stupid imo.
Edited onPatch 2.4.2
Thats some impressive DPS Shha. How did you get nearly 50% constant crit?
On the subject of a max rage increase talent, its doubtful. I just can't see them doing that, and even if the cap was increased, it would still be reached eventually.
Titans grip is just a means to more damage, and along with bloodsurge should make for some pretty insane DPS.
And deathwish is back were it belongs? Thats good to hear, the talents I saw were from a few days ago and have since been removed.
On the subject of a max rage increase talent, its doubtful. I just can't see them doing that, and even if the cap was increased, it would still be reached eventually.
Titans grip is just a means to more damage, and along with bloodsurge should make for some pretty insane DPS.
And deathwish is back were it belongs? Thats good to hear, the talents I saw were from a few days ago and have since been removed.
Last edited by Rishina : 05/23/08 at 6:06 PM.
Crit is about what it should be honestly. Feral 5% +35% base+3% ret = 43 from the "%". Then Goa talented +kings+mark+scroll of agility=~140agi (around 5% crit). Sharpening stones add another 0.7 - overall im at around 49 (shows 49,6 on average on spreadsheets). On a side note I do a rather counter-intuitive dps priority - i basically heroic strike 1st , before using rage on instants. I posted explanation in one of other warrior topics (i dont remember which though :P)
Edited onPatch 2.4.2
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Originally Posted by Shha
BF is really overestimated as I said here and on blizz warrior forums multiple times. Looking at the parses you need 17-20k physical dps on fight like brutallus for BF to actually make a difference. It can happen, but its far from given. Fury warriors do ~2700 dps without glaives (at least i can), Arms gets to 2k, sometimes a bit higher. 700/0.04= 17500, not counting ruptures deep wounds lacerates from tanks etc. So on a fight with ~30k total dps , unless 2/3 is coming from physical sources , BF isnt really worth it. For us yes - we run 2 melee group+hunter group+1 caster group often... We do have BF warrior. For other guilds, you can really argue if BF is useful.
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Our setup on Brutallus is: 2 Rogues, Enh Shaman, Warrior, Ret Paladin, Feral Druid (tank), Prot Warrior (tank) and 2x Hunters. I've always said it depends on the setup your guild runs with, and how hard those classes actually try. If not everyone is going all out or you run with fewer physical damage dealers, BF isn't really worth it. But on a fight like Brutallus you can hardly say it's overrated unless you are comparing it to a Warrior who has the Warglaive set.
And weren't you the one who said BF was so good that you subbed in a Prot Warrior with crappy gear for debuffs and BF originally?
Last edited by Graul : 05/24/08 at 5:33 AM.
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Originally Posted by landsoul
Okay lets talk about the future of a DPS warrior.
Leaked warrior talents are out. ... Arms: Trauma: Fully talented, increases bleed effects on the target of your critical strikes by 30%. Implications: If your raid has rogues, dps warriors, or feral druids, this talent may be useful, but it doesnt seem too great. |
Bloodbath (rank 1)
15 Rage
5 yd range
Instant
Wound up to 5 enemy targets within 8 yards, causing 244 to 256 damage and causing them to Bleed for 250 damage over 15 sec. If the target becomes Enraged, the Bloodbath bleed effect causes four times the normal damage.
No cooldown. Depending on how the numbers bear out in the end, Trauma could be very a nice boost to both your personal DPS and your tank's TPS, assuming rend and bloodbath are good enough to slot into the standard tank rotation.
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Originally Posted by Graul
How many drum users did you have per group and what was your kill time? You said in the Warrior forums that BL was overrated, yet I think you are understating it. With only 1 BL, a Ret Paladin instead of a Feral in our group and only 1-2x LW per DPS group I can do 2300 with a killtime at around 5'57 as Fury and without BF. We switched me out for our second Protection Warrior who has an "ok" Arms set so he could get the gear he needed from this fight since I already had what I needed. For BF being overrated, with the exact same setup besides myself being there, the kill time was only 1 second later and his personal DPS was only 1337. I have yet to do this fight as 33/28, but I am more than certain that I could pull at least 1950. We also take 3x Shadow Priests, which is very abnormal and is probably lowering our kill time by 5-10 seconds, but it works for us.
Our setup on Brutallus is: 2 Rogues, Enh Shaman, Warrior, Ret Paladin, Feral Druid (tank), Prot Warrior (tank) and 2x Hunters. I've always said it depends on the setup your guild runs with, and how hard those classes actually try. If not everyone is going all out or you run with fewer physical damage dealers, BF isn't really worth it. But on a fight like Brutallus you can hardly say it's overrated unless you are comparing it to a Warrior who has the Warglaive set. And weren't you the one who said BF was so good that you subbed in a Prot Warrior with crappy gear for debuffs and BF originally? |
Yea we subbed that warrior - but at the time we had 4 rogues 1 shaman 1 ret paladin 2 feral druid tanks 2 warriors and 3 hunters. We had an extremely stacked physical raid. With your setup lets see. 2 Rogues at 2400, Enh shaman at 2200 Fury at 2300 Ret at 1700 2 hunters at 2500(BM) 1800(Surv) 2 tanks at 1000. 15300 physical dps. 4% of it = 610 dps from BF. If you indeed can go 1950 vs 2300 dps then go with BF. If its 1700 vs 2300 it doesnt matter. I know for a fact that with my ping getting 1850 would be good for BF, and I can reliably go over 2600 as fury.
In fact that was my whole argument about subbing that person in. With our raid setup BF was worth it. So subbing a 1300 warrior meant getting it without me having to grab it. Now lets see - we use dual feral tank so if not for him:
- I would have to go BF , WHILE keeping imp tclap/demo (at least 4 gcd every 30 sec - the expected 1850 dps would lower to 1500 easily). 2600-1500 = 1100 dps gain.
- Other melee group would lose Bshout (around 150 dps for 2 rogues, 100 dps for ret paladin, 50 dps for feral tank) = 450 more dps.
1550 dps total in addition to 1350 personal made the "sub" have 2800 raid dps which is somehow respectable.
I see you have the same trinkets that I do. One of the reasons I always hated playing 33/28 other than having to skip Slams due to timing issues with procs and something moving was latency. It may have been a fluke, but if you looked at the WWS I posted in the 2h thread, I essentially used 0 Slams on any boss fight and did for the most part (and ironically in some cases higher) than what I do with a MH glaive and Mounting Vengeance as Fury. I would say the way I am playing it would *require* a DST and a sword at least, but you don't have to worry about latency issues this way. Not sure if you have a CE or not, but you might try it out sometime to see how well you do.
I am having a really strange sense of deja vu in this thread now too.
I am having a really strange sense of deja vu in this thread now too.
Well Im really not too convinced. Teron is taking around 12% more dmg then brutallus due to lower armor, and its a way shorter fight. Ill have to give it a shot sometime, but frankly it just "doesnt compute". You could go with double sword then and just dual wield - White dmg would suffer from around 15% miss and maybe 10% lower, but you would get a 60% boost from your oh. 90*85*160= 22% increase. MS would be around 33% smaller but do only 13% of your damage. Heroic strike dps would be a bit higher due to better effectiveness with 1h. WF is more effective, sword spec is about same (offhand hits generating mh swings really shine with dual wield).
I'm one of two Fury Warriors in my raiding guild, and the only one with a Solarian's Sapphire. I have been using a Shard of Contempt in my second trinket slot, but recently acquired a Dragonspine Trophy. Is the consensus that DST scales better in raids than SoC? With a Sapphire, SoC, and DST, should I think about looting Madness of the Betrayer?
Thanks and sorry if I'm parroting an ancient post in this thread.
Thanks and sorry if I'm parroting an ancient post in this thread.
'Scales' is a poor argument for choosing gear, when it is all available to you. Just use whichever is better for you currently.
Well, Weapon Mastery + SoC + t6 Belt will give you all the expertise you need. Up until the expertise cap, SoC is better than DST (should check landsoul's DPS spreadsheet). However, since your an Orc, you may be able to reach the cap (~6.50%) without the SoC.
I'd use SoC + Sapphire unless your using axes, and have t6 belt (or Vashj's). In that case, use DST + Sapphire? This is all easily modeled again by landsoul's spreadsheet.
Well, Weapon Mastery + SoC + t6 Belt will give you all the expertise you need. Up until the expertise cap, SoC is better than DST (should check landsoul's DPS spreadsheet). However, since your an Orc, you may be able to reach the cap (~6.50%) without the SoC.
I'd use SoC + Sapphire unless your using axes, and have t6 belt (or Vashj's). In that case, use DST + Sapphire? This is all easily modeled again by landsoul's spreadsheet.
I am an Orc wielding S3 Axes, but my only piece of Expertise gear otherwise is SoC. Guild is working on Archimonde and Gorefiend, so Sunwell T6 is a long ways off. Sorry for not mentioning this stuff in first post.
Yeah I've looked at the spreadsheet, was looking here for a confirmation of what I saw there.
Thanks for the reply, any comment on MotB?
Yeah I've looked at the spreadsheet, was looking here for a confirmation of what I saw there.
Thanks for the reply, any comment on MotB?
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Originally Posted by Shha
Ive never seen 2300+ arms wws. My link is 2684 under 2.4 parsing, and
- i miss a lot of sunwell gear (not even 4 piece t6), and using both badge claws (not a single mounting vengeance lol... not to mention ) - 2 heroisms only too, which is normal for our melee so yea. - 1 hunter so aggro sucked - could pull 50-100 more if not for that. I dont feel a problem with competition with arms. They do significantly less (even if 2300 was true, a fury warrior with top end gear can push 3k) dps, and they dont scale. If you have enough physical dps, then unless you are running exceptionally hunter heavy, you can fit 2nd warrior for bshout etc - and it will be an upgrade over rogue. If you have low melee, then BF warrior isnt really needed. Also note that brutallus due to full stacked dps groups synergies, and 0 movement, is PERFECT encounter for arms. Ive seen 2500+ on twins for fury, never above 1800 for arms - just the small movements here and there and a bit worse synergies and they drop... Either way there is room for ONE arms warrior, and ONE ret paladin in raid. Ferals are not a competition at all in terms of dps honestly. Enhancement Shamans are different... I honestly think the class/spec is broken. They bring by far most buffs, and they can go over 2500 on brutallus (ours does, although not consistently - the report had her at 2450 i think. Although due to debuffs she couldnt use FS, and she attacked for 2 mins from front (we had a warlock died and she took his spot for soaking since we really push it with melee - a dead soaker has to be replaced or it gets risky). In fact unless your rogues have warglaives its up to a point that replacing rogues with ANOTHER enh shamans (the group already has one) is a raid dps boost - thats pretty stupid imo. |
Edited onPatch 2.4.2
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Originally Posted by Kupeludo
I cannot agree with you, just did some windows calculator math on your log, and BF added 630~ dps. Any arms warrior worth his salt would be pulling 2200 if not a lot more with your gear and your support. I remember doing 1900 a couple months ago with only bracers from sunwell, and no feral or boomkin FF. However I think Brut would eat his face maybe even before those death wish reck executes.
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Modrack (2057) Wow Web Stats
He had 1 BL and used the Sapphire. He added ~597 DPS. It's safe to say he contributed at least what a Fury Warrior doing 2600 would have done and with less support. Their kill time is much faster than the "average" guild that uses either eight healers or three tanks, so that's going to inflate his numbers very slightly (maybe 50 - 75 DPS?) but it still shows that both BF and BL are being underrated by some. He also seems to have a near perflect Slam rotation. I don't see very many WWS with an almost 1:1 Steady Shot like ratio when using Slam, even if that's how it should look.
Last edited by Graul : 05/25/08 at 7:56 AM.
These kinds of numbers honestly confuse the hell out of me...
Currently I'm running basically the best gear available to my guild (minus T6 boots) and the best I've ever managed is about 1850 (Wow Web Stats) on Brutallus.
Granted this isn't one of our fastest kills but I can't get my head around how arms warriors are hitting 2100+ DPS. Rage permitting my slam rotation is dead on, latency being around 150-180. Switch to dual weild (swiftsteel/s2 mace) for execute spam during Heroism/Haste Pot/Death Wish/Reck and then back to slam rotation once Heroism wears off.
In that WWS the high miss rate (8%) on Swing is due to switching to dual weild at sub 20%, past that I should have a 0% miss rate as I was hit and expertise capped.
Group setup is usually far from optimal, but not horrible; generally Enh Shaman - Me - Fury War - Rogue - Rogue.
Any ideas or recommendations? It's really pissing me off that I can't get anywhere near the numbers some of you guys are pushing out.
Currently I'm running basically the best gear available to my guild (minus T6 boots) and the best I've ever managed is about 1850 (Wow Web Stats) on Brutallus.
Granted this isn't one of our fastest kills but I can't get my head around how arms warriors are hitting 2100+ DPS. Rage permitting my slam rotation is dead on, latency being around 150-180. Switch to dual weild (swiftsteel/s2 mace) for execute spam during Heroism/Haste Pot/Death Wish/Reck and then back to slam rotation once Heroism wears off.
In that WWS the high miss rate (8%) on Swing is due to switching to dual weild at sub 20%, past that I should have a 0% miss rate as I was hit and expertise capped.
Group setup is usually far from optimal, but not horrible; generally Enh Shaman - Me - Fury War - Rogue - Rogue.
Any ideas or recommendations? It's really pissing me off that I can't get anywhere near the numbers some of you guys are pushing out.
Edited onPatch 2.4.2
I don't really think it's worth switching out your weapons for Execute when you have Bloodlust, Drums, Haste Potion and Flurry up. You are either beating your GCD or coming close enough and without the added miss. And I just noticed you also have a DST, so that's another haste effect that might not always be up during Bloodlust at sub 20%, but it could just as easily be up.
Last edited by Graul : 05/25/08 at 11:31 AM.
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Originally Posted by Kupeludo
I cannot agree with you, just did some windows calculator math on your log, and BF added 630~ dps. Any arms warrior worth his salt would be pulling 2200 if not a lot more with your gear and your support. I remember doing 1900 a couple months ago with only bracers from sunwell, and no feral or boomkin FF. However I think Brut would eat his face maybe even before those death wish reck executes.
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Originally Posted by shed
And I cannot agree with you that a MS/BF warrior will do at minimum 2200 DPS or even "a lot more" (so like 2400-2600 DPS?).
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Originally Posted by Rishina
The rage calculation is likely to be changed again anyway, as it was before TBC. Otherwise at 80 you will get a full rage bar very fast indeed.
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Unless something else comes into play where rage gain is calculated differently for DW 2H then rage cap/depravity will be a serious issue. On the flip side, if we get smaller chunks of rage, then we are losing half of the benefit of DW 2Hers in the first place. The only thing I would see happening to counter this is to raise the rage cap to something like 200, but that's not a realistic change either, given the way our cousin rogues are wired.
It'll be interesting to say the least where WotLK takes everyone, and perhaps I'm not thinking enough outside of the box, but there just appears to be glaring issues with TG. Again, this could just be me.
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Originally Posted by Graul
it's more of a "do or die now" burst playstyle instead of a draining/endurance style.
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Originally Posted by Mjollnir
Arms has both of these elements. Fury will never be endurance capable (unless Blood Craze gets a mad buff?).
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Seems to me that Titans grip is in the wrong tree.
Hopefully they move it to arms where it belongs.
Hopefully they move it to arms where it belongs.
@Graul: The point I was getting at is that Arms is still going to be able to provide both burst and survivability. Fury is only going to provide burst. There will be varying levels of course, done in different ways, but current gameplay and 'leaked' xpac notes do not lead me to believe there are any [significant] changes to the current model.
This one time, in patch notes, I read about Deathwish being removed from the Fury tree.
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Originally Posted by Mardraum
Hopefully they move it to arms where it belongs.
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Originally Posted by Graul
Blizzard stated that they wanted 2h DPS to be fairly equal to DW. Why, I have no idea, but it's their words, and it seems like their goal with BF was to make it equal to DW output. The reverse is happening until a Fury Warrior has the Warglaive *set* or unless you run an unusual amount of casters in your raids however. I can't really speak for anyone who normally raided with a 2h, but it seems like the viability issue was a matter of not wanting to have to compete with other DW users as well as having a weapon to PvP with or simply using their PvP weapon for PvE. Titans Grip will basically all but remove that argument (unless BF simply scales too well at 80). People will have their 2h that maybe they gained through Arena (paired with some other) and also be able to spec the highest Warrior raid DPS as Fury. This also gives Fury more PvP viability than it has now, although it remains to be seen if it will be enough to compete with Arms in the long run or if it's more of a "do or die now" burst playstyle instead of a draining/endurance style.
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BF is really overestimated as I said here and on blizz warrior forums multiple times. Looking at the parses you need 17-20k physical dps on fight like brutallus for BF to actually make a difference. It can happen, but its far from given. Fury warriors do ~2700 dps without glaives (at least i can), Arms gets to 2k, sometimes a bit higher. 700/0.04= 17500, not counting ruptures deep wounds lacerates from tanks etc. So on a fight with ~30k total dps , unless 2/3 is coming from physical sources , BF isnt really worth it. For us yes - we run 2 melee group+hunter group+1 caster group often... We do have BF warrior. For other guilds, you can really argue if BF is useful.
Titans grip aside - the talent tree that was leaked shows another 10% threat reduction - that alone could put me close to 3k with just t6 boots/mounting vengeance. My last kills ALL were riding threat on tanks - and I dont mean occasional threat problem - i sit around 100% threat witha bit loose heroic strike use then when i start pushing it i get above. Last kill on this wws Wow Web Stats I was above 105% threat on omen 100% of the fight beside very start when MDs pulled tanks ahead. One moment i was even above 110% (didnt pull though - either omen is wrong, or the fact that you can attack Brutallus from further away then he can melee you , makes it count the aggro as "ranged" in that case).
Now for Titans grip - I wouldnt mind a fury talent extending rage bar. Given warrior cooldown limitation and rage mechanics, some deep fury talent increasing rage maximum amount doesnt seem overpowered or strange. In its current state Titans grip just doesnt seem useful.
Fury talents I would like to see to solve some problems:
- Getting rid of zerker stance damage taken increase , incorporated into one of the talents with threat.
- Improved Rampage - 5 point talent granting 20/40/60/80/100% of Rampage AP to the party
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Originally Posted by Mjollnir
This one time, in patch notes, I read about Deathwish being removed from the Fury tree.
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2700dps on Brut? Highest on file is 2600+. I can't manage to view the ability breakdown but it would be safe to assume s/he is Fury. I have also seen Arms posted with putting up 2300+ on the same encounter. Knowing this, BF is still king. (WWS aren't loading for me atm).
As far as improvements to our class, I don't know of anyone who wouldn't agree the dmg redux on zerk stance would be overdue. I would love to see us get 'free' Rampage much like a Spooky's shadow spells stack 5 'shadow sunders'. We should get a stacking Rampage that adds a stack (up to 5) or refreshes each time we crit, rather than a rage loss of 20 every 20-25sec.
That being said, I can agree a Fury needs some sort of group utility. BShout is decent but doesn't scale. A Fury is far outpaced these days by MS/BF and Retadins providing raid-wide benefits, and Ferals and especially Enh Shams providing Totems/UR/Lust. Either that, or boost individual dps and provide on demand threat reduction. I would be partial to the former personally. The once staple dps warrior in 40mans has a declining habitat these days.
If Deathwish is back, I express my joy. It has been missed.
Regardless this is all speculation, but interesting nonetheless to explore some of the possibilities to come.
As far as improvements to our class, I don't know of anyone who wouldn't agree the dmg redux on zerk stance would be overdue. I would love to see us get 'free' Rampage much like a Spooky's shadow spells stack 5 'shadow sunders'. We should get a stacking Rampage that adds a stack (up to 5) or refreshes each time we crit, rather than a rage loss of 20 every 20-25sec.
That being said, I can agree a Fury needs some sort of group utility. BShout is decent but doesn't scale. A Fury is far outpaced these days by MS/BF and Retadins providing raid-wide benefits, and Ferals and especially Enh Shams providing Totems/UR/Lust. Either that, or boost individual dps and provide on demand threat reduction. I would be partial to the former personally. The once staple dps warrior in 40mans has a declining habitat these days.
If Deathwish is back, I express my joy. It has been missed.
Regardless this is all speculation, but interesting nonetheless to explore some of the possibilities to come.
Ive never seen 2300+ arms wws. My link is 2684 under 2.4 parsing, and
- i miss a lot of sunwell gear (not even 4 piece t6), and using both badge claws (not a single mounting vengeance lol... not to mention )
- 2 heroisms only too, which is normal for our melee so yea.
- 1 hunter so aggro sucked - could pull 50-100 more if not for that.
I dont feel a problem with competition with arms. They do significantly less (even if 2300 was true, a fury warrior with top end gear can push 3k) dps, and they dont scale. If you have enough physical dps, then unless you are running exceptionally hunter heavy, you can fit 2nd warrior for bshout etc - and it will be an upgrade over rogue. If you have low melee, then BF warrior isnt really needed. Also note that brutallus due to full stacked dps groups synergies, and 0 movement, is PERFECT encounter for arms. Ive seen 2500+ on twins for fury, never above 1800 for arms - just the small movements here and there and a bit worse synergies and they drop... Either way there is room for ONE arms warrior, and ONE ret paladin in raid.
Ferals are not a competition at all in terms of dps honestly. Enhancement Shamans are different... I honestly think the class/spec is broken. They bring by far most buffs, and they can go over 2500 on brutallus (ours does, although not consistently - the report had her at 2450 i think. Although due to debuffs she couldnt use FS, and she attacked for 2 mins from front (we had a warlock died and she took his spot for soaking since we really push it with melee - a dead soaker has to be replaced or it gets risky). In fact unless your rogues have warglaives its up to a point that replacing rogues with ANOTHER enh shamans (the group already has one) is a raid dps boost - thats pretty stupid imo.
- i miss a lot of sunwell gear (not even 4 piece t6), and using both badge claws (not a single mounting vengeance lol... not to mention )
- 2 heroisms only too, which is normal for our melee so yea.
- 1 hunter so aggro sucked - could pull 50-100 more if not for that.
I dont feel a problem with competition with arms. They do significantly less (even if 2300 was true, a fury warrior with top end gear can push 3k) dps, and they dont scale. If you have enough physical dps, then unless you are running exceptionally hunter heavy, you can fit 2nd warrior for bshout etc - and it will be an upgrade over rogue. If you have low melee, then BF warrior isnt really needed. Also note that brutallus due to full stacked dps groups synergies, and 0 movement, is PERFECT encounter for arms. Ive seen 2500+ on twins for fury, never above 1800 for arms - just the small movements here and there and a bit worse synergies and they drop... Either way there is room for ONE arms warrior, and ONE ret paladin in raid.
Ferals are not a competition at all in terms of dps honestly. Enhancement Shamans are different... I honestly think the class/spec is broken. They bring by far most buffs, and they can go over 2500 on brutallus (ours does, although not consistently - the report had her at 2450 i think. Although due to debuffs she couldnt use FS, and she attacked for 2 mins from front (we had a warlock died and she took his spot for soaking since we really push it with melee - a dead soaker has to be replaced or it gets risky). In fact unless your rogues have warglaives its up to a point that replacing rogues with ANOTHER enh shamans (the group already has one) is a raid dps boost - thats pretty stupid imo.
Edited onPatch 2.4.2
Thats some impressive DPS Shha. How did you get nearly 50% constant crit?
On the subject of a max rage increase talent, its doubtful. I just can't see them doing that, and even if the cap was increased, it would still be reached eventually.
Titans grip is just a means to more damage, and along with bloodsurge should make for some pretty insane DPS.
And deathwish is back were it belongs? Thats good to hear, the talents I saw were from a few days ago and have since been removed.
On the subject of a max rage increase talent, its doubtful. I just can't see them doing that, and even if the cap was increased, it would still be reached eventually.
Titans grip is just a means to more damage, and along with bloodsurge should make for some pretty insane DPS.
And deathwish is back were it belongs? Thats good to hear, the talents I saw were from a few days ago and have since been removed.
Last edited by Rishina : 05/23/08 at 6:06 PM.
Crit is about what it should be honestly. Feral 5% +35% base+3% ret = 43 from the "%". Then Goa talented +kings+mark+scroll of agility=~140agi (around 5% crit). Sharpening stones add another 0.7 - overall im at around 49 (shows 49,6 on average on spreadsheets). On a side note I do a rather counter-intuitive dps priority - i basically heroic strike 1st , before using rage on instants. I posted explanation in one of other warrior topics (i dont remember which though :P)
Edited onPatch 2.4.2
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Originally Posted by Shha
BF is really overestimated as I said here and on blizz warrior forums multiple times. Looking at the parses you need 17-20k physical dps on fight like brutallus for BF to actually make a difference. It can happen, but its far from given. Fury warriors do ~2700 dps without glaives (at least i can), Arms gets to 2k, sometimes a bit higher. 700/0.04= 17500, not counting ruptures deep wounds lacerates from tanks etc. So on a fight with ~30k total dps , unless 2/3 is coming from physical sources , BF isnt really worth it. For us yes - we run 2 melee group+hunter group+1 caster group often... We do have BF warrior. For other guilds, you can really argue if BF is useful.
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Our setup on Brutallus is: 2 Rogues, Enh Shaman, Warrior, Ret Paladin, Feral Druid (tank), Prot Warrior (tank) and 2x Hunters. I've always said it depends on the setup your guild runs with, and how hard those classes actually try. If not everyone is going all out or you run with fewer physical damage dealers, BF isn't really worth it. But on a fight like Brutallus you can hardly say it's overrated unless you are comparing it to a Warrior who has the Warglaive set.
And weren't you the one who said BF was so good that you subbed in a Prot Warrior with crappy gear for debuffs and BF originally?
Last edited by Graul : 05/24/08 at 5:33 AM.
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Originally Posted by landsoul
Okay lets talk about the future of a DPS warrior.
Leaked warrior talents are out. ... Arms: Trauma: Fully talented, increases bleed effects on the target of your critical strikes by 30%. Implications: If your raid has rogues, dps warriors, or feral druids, this talent may be useful, but it doesnt seem too great. |
Bloodbath (rank 1)
15 Rage
5 yd range
Instant
Wound up to 5 enemy targets within 8 yards, causing 244 to 256 damage and causing them to Bleed for 250 damage over 15 sec. If the target becomes Enraged, the Bloodbath bleed effect causes four times the normal damage.
No cooldown. Depending on how the numbers bear out in the end, Trauma could be very a nice boost to both your personal DPS and your tank's TPS, assuming rend and bloodbath are good enough to slot into the standard tank rotation.
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Originally Posted by Graul
How many drum users did you have per group and what was your kill time? You said in the Warrior forums that BL was overrated, yet I think you are understating it. With only 1 BL, a Ret Paladin instead of a Feral in our group and only 1-2x LW per DPS group I can do 2300 with a killtime at around 5'57 as Fury and without BF. We switched me out for our second Protection Warrior who has an "ok" Arms set so he could get the gear he needed from this fight since I already had what I needed. For BF being overrated, with the exact same setup besides myself being there, the kill time was only 1 second later and his personal DPS was only 1337. I have yet to do this fight as 33/28, but I am more than certain that I could pull at least 1950. We also take 3x Shadow Priests, which is very abnormal and is probably lowering our kill time by 5-10 seconds, but it works for us.
Our setup on Brutallus is: 2 Rogues, Enh Shaman, Warrior, Ret Paladin, Feral Druid (tank), Prot Warrior (tank) and 2x Hunters. I've always said it depends on the setup your guild runs with, and how hard those classes actually try. If not everyone is going all out or you run with fewer physical damage dealers, BF isn't really worth it. But on a fight like Brutallus you can hardly say it's overrated unless you are comparing it to a Warrior who has the Warglaive set. And weren't you the one who said BF was so good that you subbed in a Prot Warrior with crappy gear for debuffs and BF originally? |
Yea we subbed that warrior - but at the time we had 4 rogues 1 shaman 1 ret paladin 2 feral druid tanks 2 warriors and 3 hunters. We had an extremely stacked physical raid. With your setup lets see. 2 Rogues at 2400, Enh shaman at 2200 Fury at 2300 Ret at 1700 2 hunters at 2500(BM) 1800(Surv) 2 tanks at 1000. 15300 physical dps. 4% of it = 610 dps from BF. If you indeed can go 1950 vs 2300 dps then go with BF. If its 1700 vs 2300 it doesnt matter. I know for a fact that with my ping getting 1850 would be good for BF, and I can reliably go over 2600 as fury.
In fact that was my whole argument about subbing that person in. With our raid setup BF was worth it. So subbing a 1300 warrior meant getting it without me having to grab it. Now lets see - we use dual feral tank so if not for him:
- I would have to go BF , WHILE keeping imp tclap/demo (at least 4 gcd every 30 sec - the expected 1850 dps would lower to 1500 easily). 2600-1500 = 1100 dps gain.
- Other melee group would lose Bshout (around 150 dps for 2 rogues, 100 dps for ret paladin, 50 dps for feral tank) = 450 more dps.
1550 dps total in addition to 1350 personal made the "sub" have 2800 raid dps which is somehow respectable.
I see you have the same trinkets that I do. One of the reasons I always hated playing 33/28 other than having to skip Slams due to timing issues with procs and something moving was latency. It may have been a fluke, but if you looked at the WWS I posted in the 2h thread, I essentially used 0 Slams on any boss fight and did for the most part (and ironically in some cases higher) than what I do with a MH glaive and Mounting Vengeance as Fury. I would say the way I am playing it would *require* a DST and a sword at least, but you don't have to worry about latency issues this way. Not sure if you have a CE or not, but you might try it out sometime to see how well you do.
I am having a really strange sense of deja vu in this thread now too.
I am having a really strange sense of deja vu in this thread now too.
Well Im really not too convinced. Teron is taking around 12% more dmg then brutallus due to lower armor, and its a way shorter fight. Ill have to give it a shot sometime, but frankly it just "doesnt compute". You could go with double sword then and just dual wield - White dmg would suffer from around 15% miss and maybe 10% lower, but you would get a 60% boost from your oh. 90*85*160= 22% increase. MS would be around 33% smaller but do only 13% of your damage. Heroic strike dps would be a bit higher due to better effectiveness with 1h. WF is more effective, sword spec is about same (offhand hits generating mh swings really shine with dual wield).
I'm one of two Fury Warriors in my raiding guild, and the only one with a Solarian's Sapphire. I have been using a Shard of Contempt in my second trinket slot, but recently acquired a Dragonspine Trophy. Is the consensus that DST scales better in raids than SoC? With a Sapphire, SoC, and DST, should I think about looting Madness of the Betrayer?
Thanks and sorry if I'm parroting an ancient post in this thread.
Thanks and sorry if I'm parroting an ancient post in this thread.
'Scales' is a poor argument for choosing gear, when it is all available to you. Just use whichever is better for you currently.
Well, Weapon Mastery + SoC + t6 Belt will give you all the expertise you need. Up until the expertise cap, SoC is better than DST (should check landsoul's DPS spreadsheet). However, since your an Orc, you may be able to reach the cap (~6.50%) without the SoC.
I'd use SoC + Sapphire unless your using axes, and have t6 belt (or Vashj's). In that case, use DST + Sapphire? This is all easily modeled again by landsoul's spreadsheet.
Well, Weapon Mastery + SoC + t6 Belt will give you all the expertise you need. Up until the expertise cap, SoC is better than DST (should check landsoul's DPS spreadsheet). However, since your an Orc, you may be able to reach the cap (~6.50%) without the SoC.
I'd use SoC + Sapphire unless your using axes, and have t6 belt (or Vashj's). In that case, use DST + Sapphire? This is all easily modeled again by landsoul's spreadsheet.
I am an Orc wielding S3 Axes, but my only piece of Expertise gear otherwise is SoC. Guild is working on Archimonde and Gorefiend, so Sunwell T6 is a long ways off. Sorry for not mentioning this stuff in first post.
Yeah I've looked at the spreadsheet, was looking here for a confirmation of what I saw there.
Thanks for the reply, any comment on MotB?
Yeah I've looked at the spreadsheet, was looking here for a confirmation of what I saw there.
Thanks for the reply, any comment on MotB?
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Originally Posted by Shha
Ive never seen 2300+ arms wws. My link is 2684 under 2.4 parsing, and
- i miss a lot of sunwell gear (not even 4 piece t6), and using both badge claws (not a single mounting vengeance lol... not to mention ) - 2 heroisms only too, which is normal for our melee so yea. - 1 hunter so aggro sucked - could pull 50-100 more if not for that. I dont feel a problem with competition with arms. They do significantly less (even if 2300 was true, a fury warrior with top end gear can push 3k) dps, and they dont scale. If you have enough physical dps, then unless you are running exceptionally hunter heavy, you can fit 2nd warrior for bshout etc - and it will be an upgrade over rogue. If you have low melee, then BF warrior isnt really needed. Also note that brutallus due to full stacked dps groups synergies, and 0 movement, is PERFECT encounter for arms. Ive seen 2500+ on twins for fury, never above 1800 for arms - just the small movements here and there and a bit worse synergies and they drop... Either way there is room for ONE arms warrior, and ONE ret paladin in raid. Ferals are not a competition at all in terms of dps honestly. Enhancement Shamans are different... I honestly think the class/spec is broken. They bring by far most buffs, and they can go over 2500 on brutallus (ours does, although not consistently - the report had her at 2450 i think. Although due to debuffs she couldnt use FS, and she attacked for 2 mins from front (we had a warlock died and she took his spot for soaking since we really push it with melee - a dead soaker has to be replaced or it gets risky). In fact unless your rogues have warglaives its up to a point that replacing rogues with ANOTHER enh shamans (the group already has one) is a raid dps boost - thats pretty stupid imo. |
Edited onPatch 2.4.2
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Originally Posted by Kupeludo
I cannot agree with you, just did some windows calculator math on your log, and BF added 630~ dps. Any arms warrior worth his salt would be pulling 2200 if not a lot more with your gear and your support. I remember doing 1900 a couple months ago with only bracers from sunwell, and no feral or boomkin FF. However I think Brut would eat his face maybe even before those death wish reck executes.
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Modrack (2057) Wow Web Stats
He had 1 BL and used the Sapphire. He added ~597 DPS. It's safe to say he contributed at least what a Fury Warrior doing 2600 would have done and with less support. Their kill time is much faster than the "average" guild that uses either eight healers or three tanks, so that's going to inflate his numbers very slightly (maybe 50 - 75 DPS?) but it still shows that both BF and BL are being underrated by some. He also seems to have a near perflect Slam rotation. I don't see very many WWS with an almost 1:1 Steady Shot like ratio when using Slam, even if that's how it should look.
Last edited by Graul : 05/25/08 at 7:56 AM.
These kinds of numbers honestly confuse the hell out of me...
Currently I'm running basically the best gear available to my guild (minus T6 boots) and the best I've ever managed is about 1850 (Wow Web Stats) on Brutallus.
Granted this isn't one of our fastest kills but I can't get my head around how arms warriors are hitting 2100+ DPS. Rage permitting my slam rotation is dead on, latency being around 150-180. Switch to dual weild (swiftsteel/s2 mace) for execute spam during Heroism/Haste Pot/Death Wish/Reck and then back to slam rotation once Heroism wears off.
In that WWS the high miss rate (8%) on Swing is due to switching to dual weild at sub 20%, past that I should have a 0% miss rate as I was hit and expertise capped.
Group setup is usually far from optimal, but not horrible; generally Enh Shaman - Me - Fury War - Rogue - Rogue.
Any ideas or recommendations? It's really pissing me off that I can't get anywhere near the numbers some of you guys are pushing out.
Currently I'm running basically the best gear available to my guild (minus T6 boots) and the best I've ever managed is about 1850 (Wow Web Stats) on Brutallus.
Granted this isn't one of our fastest kills but I can't get my head around how arms warriors are hitting 2100+ DPS. Rage permitting my slam rotation is dead on, latency being around 150-180. Switch to dual weild (swiftsteel/s2 mace) for execute spam during Heroism/Haste Pot/Death Wish/Reck and then back to slam rotation once Heroism wears off.
In that WWS the high miss rate (8%) on Swing is due to switching to dual weild at sub 20%, past that I should have a 0% miss rate as I was hit and expertise capped.
Group setup is usually far from optimal, but not horrible; generally Enh Shaman - Me - Fury War - Rogue - Rogue.
Any ideas or recommendations? It's really pissing me off that I can't get anywhere near the numbers some of you guys are pushing out.
Edited onPatch 2.4.2
I don't really think it's worth switching out your weapons for Execute when you have Bloodlust, Drums, Haste Potion and Flurry up. You are either beating your GCD or coming close enough and without the added miss. And I just noticed you also have a DST, so that's another haste effect that might not always be up during Bloodlust at sub 20%, but it could just as easily be up.
Last edited by Graul : 05/25/08 at 11:31 AM.
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Originally Posted by Kupeludo
I cannot agree with you, just did some windows calculator math on your log, and BF added 630~ dps. Any arms warrior worth his salt would be pulling 2200 if not a lot more with your gear and your support. I remember doing 1900 a couple months ago with only bracers from sunwell, and no feral or boomkin FF. However I think Brut would eat his face maybe even before those death wish reck executes.
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Originally Posted by shed
And I cannot agree with you that a MS/BF warrior will do at minimum 2200 DPS or even "a lot more" (so like 2400-2600 DPS?).
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Edited onPatch 2.4.2
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Originally Posted by Graul
I don't really think it's worth switching out your weapons for Execute when you have Bloodlust, Drums, Haste Potion and Flurry up. You are either beating your GCD or coming close enough and without the added miss. And I just noticed you also have a DST, so that's another haste effect that might not always be up during Bloodlust at sub 20%, but it could just as easily be up.
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Also, I've been using hit food to stay capped as I do find that getting misses can really throw off my rotation - worth using Strength food over it, or stick with +hit?
Last edited by Kiranat : 05/25/08 at 1:33 PM.
| Do you think it's still worth using Execute in the slam rotation though? |
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Originally Posted by Graul
You can't really even do this unless you proc sword spec off of it because you won't be able to Slam again until after your next white attack landed instead of starting it just before it lands.
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Originally Posted by Graul
They usually won't, and I'm not sure where he's getting those numbers from. Modrack might have been able to pull off 2150 with the same buffs, which still has him doing more than you did *with* BF, but he's not in an average guild either.
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This is our latest Brut. Our arms warrior in that is our second prot warrior, with only two sunwell dps items being bracers and belt. Has no cursed vision and was using solarian, we had no leader of the pack. So, provided with adequate sunwell gear (to match the fury warriors doing 2700 dps) a career arms warrior will be easily pushing 2k IMO with the same support shown in Wow Web Stats . Maybe a lot more to be honest.
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Originally Posted by Kupeludo
Wow Web Stats
This is our latest Brut. Our arms warrior in that is our second prot warrior, with only two sunwell dps items being bracers and belt. Has no cursed vision and was using solarian, we had no leader of the pack. So, provided with adequate sunwell gear (to match the fury warriors doing 2700 dps) a career arms warrior will be easily pushing 2k IMO with the same support shown in Wow Web Stats . Maybe a lot more to be honest. |
Edited onPatch 2.4.2
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Originally Posted by Mode
Is it really fair to include Recklessness when discussing the DPS a warrior should be putting out? Maybe that's why everyone here is talking past each other with regard to what warriors should be putting out.
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[Edit] Slaving a response to this post. With regards to the comment on 2300dps by Arms: I cannot relocate it and I clear my cache nearly daily. It is possible I am misquoting what I saw, and cannot prove my claim.
Last edited by Mjollnir : 05/26/08 at 12:13 AM.
Some Arms warrior put Improve Disciplines though which increase duration into 19 secs (that 4 seconds can make difference)
I think the more important question, which I still haven't been able to playtest accurately, is in what situation, if any, does it benefit Arms or Fury to swap to 2 fast weapons during execute range. Seems to be something most warriors have their own opinion about but is difficult to model accurately enough to have a definitive answer.
having 2 fast weapons definately helps execute better at lower rage levels. when all your cooldowns are finished (reck, haste pot, heroism) switch to 2 fast weapons and your executes will be much cleaner
Is it better to use a haste potion with bloodlust? or wait till BL is gone? DW warrior here, thinking of the brutallus fight mostly.
haste effects used together will provide the same benefit as when you use em 1 after another. Therefor it doesnt matter if you pop bloodlust + haste pot, or use bloodlust, and after its run out use haste pot. Provided the battle is the same length, it wont matter. If you wanna get more bang for you buck during heroism/bloodlust, you can pop a insane str potion as that will scale with the haste from bloodlust/heroism
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Originally Posted by Daerwen
haste effects used together will provide the same benefit as when you use em 1 after another.
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Originally Posted by Kupeludo
Wow Web Stats
This is our latest Brut. Our arms warrior in that is our second prot warrior, with only two sunwell dps items being bracers and belt. Has no cursed vision and was using solarian, we had no leader of the pack. So, provided with adequate sunwell gear (to match the fury warriors doing 2700 dps) a career arms warrior will be easily pushing 2k IMO with the same support shown in Wow Web Stats . Maybe a lot more to be honest. |
My gear is only a bit behind Shha's; 2 pieces of Sunwell, Solarian's. I'm on demo duty.
Wow Web Stats
No druid, ret pali was in the "extra" group with hunters and healers and I forgot to use my 2nd [Elixir of Demonslaying]
I did get 2 Bloodlusts though, like Shha. However, I didn't execute because the 2nd bloodlust was at 35%, before my death wish and potion were even up again. I was looking forward to breaking 2k with a nice finish blowing everything at once, but instead I kept up the rotation. This was the first kill I was able to sustain a full rotation the entire time without having rage problems, though I did clip an auto attack once.Blood Frenzy contributed ~526 (raid) DPS from the rogues, hunters, tanks and ret paladin.
I really want to try him with a [Shivering Felspine] and Poleaxe spec, just to see if rage gen. is more consistent, as I think I got lucky with it tonight.
Nice dps there, just wander seeing your WWS you only got 2x Unleashed Rage, did you get swapped in middle or fight?
My guild just recently work on Brutalus and i swap into Arms, but my guild somehow struggle to get Enchant Shaman online. I find it really hard to dps as arms without a windfury.
Also what factor make your Slam crit that high (4601), i think my gear is not that far behind from yours but i hardly seeing my slam higher that 4k only (that also in Deathwish period)
My guild just recently work on Brutalus and i swap into Arms, but my guild somehow struggle to get Enchant Shaman online. I find it really hard to dps as arms without a windfury.
Also what factor make your Slam crit that high (4601), i think my gear is not that far behind from yours but i hardly seeing my slam higher that 4k only (that also in Deathwish period)
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Originally Posted by Graul
Why would they if you use Death Wish, Recklessness or a Berserkers Call during the stacked haste? You can also beat the GCD with stacked haste at 20% instead of spreading it out as well.
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If you combine bloodlust with a haste pot alone, it doesnt matter wether you use it after or during the bloodlust if its the same time span. If you combine it with stuff like deathwish and recklessness + trinket + pot, then you should use that pot DURING bloodlust, and not after, to gain a bigger advantage of youre recklessness/deathwish/trinket on top of bloodlust.
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Originally Posted by milanista11
Nice dps there, just wander seeing your WWS you only got 2x Unleashed Rage, did you get swapped in middle or fight?
My guild just recently work on Brutalus and i swap into Arms, but my guild somehow struggle to get Enchant Shaman online. I find it really hard to dps as arms without a windfury. Also what factor make your Slam crit that high (4601), i think my gear is not that far behind from yours but i hardly seeing my slam higher that 4k only (that also in Deathwish period) |
I didn't get swapped though; the fact that Unleashed Rage was only applied to me twice is exceptionally good, it means my shaman kept critting a lot, so it nearly never fell off. He only had it once, so in fact it only fell off me when he was swapped out for the 1st Bloodlust.
My unbuffed AP is relatively low, as I gem for crit, so my highest slam is a fair bit lower than Modrack's (4735), and he actually had an incredible 5080 Mortal Strike. (his WWS from the last page: Wow Web Stats). If you don't run with a Survival Hunter, that'll take off 200 at least from your highest crits. Everything else is pretty normal for the fight: Unleashed Rage, CoR, Elixir of Demonslaying, Faerie Fire, 5xSunder...
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Originally Posted by Mode
This might not seem so good at first - but check out bloodbath and rend. Improved Bloodletting aka Improved Rend gives you +225% damage on rend and bloodbath. Rend now scales better and bloodbath...From someone with access to the database dump:
Bloodbath (rank 1) 15 Rage 5 yd range Instant Wound up to 5 enemy targets within 8 yards, causing 244 to 256 damage and causing them to Bleed for 250 damage over 15 sec. If the target becomes Enraged, the Bloodbath bleed effect causes four times the normal damage. No cooldown. Depending on how the numbers bear out in the end, Trauma could be very a nice boost to both your personal DPS and your tank's TPS, assuming rend and bloodbath are good enough to slot into the standard tank rotation. |
1. The talent is still lackluster. 15rage for 1250dmg + 1250dmg under optimal conditions. Mangle won't be on 5 targets at once realistically speaking. More can be done with this, or perhaps there is a scaling attribute that isn't being incorporated.
2. Bleed effects account for less than 2% of total dps. And 2% is being generous.
3. I have no control whatsoever on an NPC becoming enraged. If we are talking bosses hitting enrage timers, the fight is won or lost already. The pitiful dps gain from becoming enraged really matters little.
In a PvP or solo grinding senario, there could be applications. (I've merged some of the topics).
2. Bleed effects account for less than 2% of total dps. And 2% is being generous.
3. I have no control whatsoever on an NPC becoming enraged. If we are talking bosses hitting enrage timers, the fight is won or lost already. The pitiful dps gain from becoming enraged really matters little.
In a PvP or solo grinding senario, there could be applications. (I've merged some of the topics).
I believe they changed Imp Rend to increase your rend and bloodbath abilities by 275% or something like that. It actually seems like a pretty nice ability, although we don't know if there will be a lot of AOE situations in WotLK like in Hyjal. Time will tell.
Well BF is worth it for a lot of guilds. The only thing I ever said is that its not ALWAYS worth it. There are _real_ raid setups used by a considerable amount of guilds where BF is NOT worth it.
Graul i tried your "style" on todays Brutallus and it was working amazingly well. 1971 dps without a single slam use. BF debuff basically makes up for the dps loss (not a big surprise we run melee heavy, and BF was always worth it - just we had someone else usually do it). The interesting part is - 1971 dps while keeping imp clap and demo both. Especially clap completely screws slam rotation , so Id risk saying that way outperforms slamming. I dont think I could get 2k with slam use (not with my ping anyway but even beside that), while keeping clap. Demo? Maybe, clap, not a chance.
I kind of wonder what would be my "result" just going with 2h fury - gaining 600 ap 10% white and WW dmg vs losing 5% total due to SS ... interesting question .
Anyway back to other stuff - executes. I definitely think most spreadsheets are wrong with the dual wield switch. My execute as 2h were by FAR better then ever with fury.
1s) With capped expertise, you never miss anything. Not white attacks, not executes. You ALWAYS have rage on intervals equal to your weapon speed. Thats huge.
2s) Deathwish and improved recklessness are nuts. On brutallus i fucked up on our kill with DW and had no reck up (thats why 1971 could be way higher), but before... I just wait till Dst is about to Proc, (cooldown over), pop DW. Execute away with 1st Dst buff then haste pot with reck. Recklessness executes breakdown:
136 base haste, 80 drums = 216. With dst proc ~540 with haste pot ~610. Thats lets average it 35% haste.
3.5 Cataclysm speed.
3.5/[ 1.15(flurry)* 1.3(Heroism)*1.35(Haste)]=2 seconds.
Sure its a waste of gcd a bit. But my dps was still a lot higher because of complete predictability and rage generation. No miss streaks no wasting of 3 sec waiting for rage etc.
Recklessness for 19 seconds basically gives you:
6k white(including the 20% dmg from WF)
8.5k execute.
thats over 7k dps easily. My fury recklessness was getting around 5k dps tops.
Other executes during heroism (basically whole last 20%). - 4k white average, 5k executes around. Still 4k dps.
With smart haste use, execute phase actually shines with 2h. With my 9% hit dual wielding fast weapons wouldnt produce close to same results really.
P.S. Our enhancement shaman broke 2500 today on brutallus... it kinda feels "not right". You can talk about how BF adds 630 dps to raid. She adds 700+dps to every person in her group ^_^.
P.P.S 6300 Mortal strike crits are yummy (felmyst though, on brutallus i didnt had 4 piece t6 - stacked more ArP, on felmyst since i was capped i switched some gear to get more AP and 4pct6).
Graul i tried your "style" on todays Brutallus and it was working amazingly well. 1971 dps without a single slam use. BF debuff basically makes up for the dps loss (not a big surprise we run melee heavy, and BF was always worth it - just we had someone else usually do it). The interesting part is - 1971 dps while keeping imp clap and demo both. Especially clap completely screws slam rotation , so Id risk saying that way outperforms slamming. I dont think I could get 2k with slam use (not with my ping anyway but even beside that), while keeping clap. Demo? Maybe, clap, not a chance.
I kind of wonder what would be my "result" just going with 2h fury - gaining 600 ap 10% white and WW dmg vs losing 5% total due to SS ... interesting question .
Anyway back to other stuff - executes. I definitely think most spreadsheets are wrong with the dual wield switch. My execute as 2h were by FAR better then ever with fury.
1s) With capped expertise, you never miss anything. Not white attacks, not executes. You ALWAYS have rage on intervals equal to your weapon speed. Thats huge.
2s) Deathwish and improved recklessness are nuts. On brutallus i fucked up on our kill with DW and had no reck up (thats why 1971 could be way higher), but before... I just wait till Dst is about to Proc, (cooldown over), pop DW. Execute away with 1st Dst buff then haste pot with reck. Recklessness executes breakdown:
136 base haste, 80 drums = 216. With dst proc ~540 with haste pot ~610. Thats lets average it 35% haste.
3.5 Cataclysm speed.
3.5/[ 1.15(flurry)* 1.3(Heroism)*1.35(Haste)]=2 seconds.
Sure its a waste of gcd a bit. But my dps was still a lot higher because of complete predictability and rage generation. No miss streaks no wasting of 3 sec waiting for rage etc.
Recklessness for 19 seconds basically gives you:
6k white(including the 20% dmg from WF)
8.5k execute.
thats over 7k dps easily. My fury recklessness was getting around 5k dps tops.
Other executes during heroism (basically whole last 20%). - 4k white average, 5k executes around. Still 4k dps.
With smart haste use, execute phase actually shines with 2h. With my 9% hit dual wielding fast weapons wouldnt produce close to same results really.
P.S. Our enhancement shaman broke 2500 today on brutallus... it kinda feels "not right". You can talk about how BF adds 630 dps to raid. She adds 700+dps to every person in her group ^_^.
P.P.S 6300 Mortal strike crits are yummy
(felmyst though, on brutallus i didnt had 4 piece t6 - stacked more ArP, on felmyst since i was capped i switched some gear to get more AP and 4pct6).You have a parse for the attempt Shha?
Nice info there, just wander how much ArP you put for Brutallus ?
Edited onPatch 2.4.2
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Originally Posted by Shha
Well BF is worth it for a lot of guilds. The only thing I ever said is that its not ALWAYS worth it. There are _real_ raid setups used by a considerable amount of guilds where BF is NOT worth it.
Graul i tried your "style" on todays Brutallus and it was working amazingly well. 1971 dps without a single slam use. BF debuff basically makes up for the dps loss (not a big surprise we run melee heavy, and BF was always worth it - just we had someone else usually do it). The interesting part is - 1971 dps while keeping imp clap and demo both. Especially clap completely screws slam rotation , so Id risk saying that way outperforms slamming. I dont think I could get 2k with slam use (not with my ping anyway but even beside that), while keeping clap. Demo? Maybe, clap, not a chance. I kind of wonder what would be my "result" just going with 2h fury - gaining 600 ap 10% white and WW dmg vs losing 5% total due to SS ... interesting question . Anyway back to other stuff - executes. I definitely think most spreadsheets are wrong with the dual wield switch. My execute as 2h were by FAR better then ever with fury. 1s) With capped expertise, you never miss anything. Not white attacks, not executes. You ALWAYS have rage on intervals equal to your weapon speed. Thats huge. 2s) Deathwish and improved recklessness are nuts. On brutallus i fucked up on our kill with DW and had no reck up (thats why 1971 could be way higher), but before... I just wait till Dst is about to Proc, (cooldown over), pop DW. Execute away with 1st Dst buff then haste pot with reck. Recklessness executes breakdown: 136 base haste, 80 drums = 216. With dst proc ~540 with haste pot ~610. Thats lets average it 35% haste. 3.5 Cataclysm speed. 3.5/[ 1.15(flurry)* 1.3(Heroism)*1.35(Haste)]=2 seconds. Sure its a waste of gcd a bit. But my dps was still a lot higher because of complete predictability and rage generation. No miss streaks no wasting of 3 sec waiting for rage etc. Recklessness for 19 seconds basically gives you: 6k white(including the 20% dmg from WF) 8.5k execute. thats over 7k dps easily. My fury recklessness was getting around 5k dps tops. Other executes during heroism (basically whole last 20%). - 4k white average, 5k executes around. Still 4k dps. With smart haste use, execute phase actually shines with 2h. With my 9% hit dual wielding fast weapons wouldnt produce close to same results really. P.S. Our enhancement shaman broke 2500 today on brutallus... it kinda feels "not right". You can talk about how BF adds 630 dps to raid. She adds 700+dps to every person in her group ^_^. P.P.S 6300 Mortal strike crits are yummy (felmyst though, on brutallus i didnt had 4 piece t6 - stacked more ArP, on felmyst since i was capped i switched some gear to get more AP and 4pct6). |
Glad to see you tried it out and it was working for you. I still have not yet been able to try Brutallus like this yet, and last night was only the second raid night on farm content where I was able to mess around with this, but I was getting similar results to the previous WWS I posted, so at least I know it wasn't just some random fluke. And yeah, 2h Executes are better I believe, especially since you can break the GCD, and even after the haste effects start to scatter and your weapon might slow down a little bit more, it's still worth it simply because of not missing. You also miss a GCD when you switch weapons, or close enough to it anyway.
The limiting factor to this though is that I think you really need a DST and at the very least a sword. Every person that I had ever read about doing this had both.
Last edited by Graul : 05/28/08 at 9:40 AM.
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Originally Posted by milanista11
Nice info there, just wander how much ArP you put for Brutallus ?
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Or maybe i should just get a set with 1710 ArP for 6200 bosses and go back to mongoose on CE... thats something to consider too. Stable 0 armor at enemy + getting 4% crit/2% haste as proc doesnt seem all that bad.
So I'm a bit confused What exactly is this "no slam" rotation that Graul & Shha are discussing here?
Is is contingent on having a DST, for the increased haste?
Thanks in advance for any help.
Is is contingent on having a DST, for the increased haste?
Thanks in advance for any help.
Edited onPatch 2.4.2
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Originally Posted by Graul
I don't really think it's worth switching out your weapons for Execute when you have Bloodlust, Drums, Haste Potion and Flurry up. You are either beating your GCD or coming close enough and without the added miss. And I just noticed you also have a DST, so that's another haste effect that might not always be up during Bloodlust at sub 20%, but it could just as easily be up.
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Also, I've been using hit food to stay capped as I do find that getting misses can really throw off my rotation - worth using Strength food over it, or stick with +hit?
Last edited by Kiranat : 05/25/08 at 1:33 PM.
| Do you think it's still worth using Execute in the slam rotation though? |
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Originally Posted by Graul
You can't really even do this unless you proc sword spec off of it because you won't be able to Slam again until after your next white attack landed instead of starting it just before it lands.
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Originally Posted by Graul
They usually won't, and I'm not sure where he's getting those numbers from. Modrack might have been able to pull off 2150 with the same buffs, which still has him doing more than you did *with* BF, but he's not in an average guild either.
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This is our latest Brut. Our arms warrior in that is our second prot warrior, with only two sunwell dps items being bracers and belt. Has no cursed vision and was using solarian, we had no leader of the pack. So, provided with adequate sunwell gear (to match the fury warriors doing 2700 dps) a career arms warrior will be easily pushing 2k IMO with the same support shown in Wow Web Stats . Maybe a lot more to be honest.
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Originally Posted by Kupeludo
Wow Web Stats
This is our latest Brut. Our arms warrior in that is our second prot warrior, with only two sunwell dps items being bracers and belt. Has no cursed vision and was using solarian, we had no leader of the pack. So, provided with adequate sunwell gear (to match the fury warriors doing 2700 dps) a career arms warrior will be easily pushing 2k IMO with the same support shown in Wow Web Stats . Maybe a lot more to be honest. |
Edited onPatch 2.4.2
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Originally Posted by Mode
Is it really fair to include Recklessness when discussing the DPS a warrior should be putting out? Maybe that's why everyone here is talking past each other with regard to what warriors should be putting out.
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[Edit] Slaving a response to this post. With regards to the comment on 2300dps by Arms: I cannot relocate it and I clear my cache nearly daily. It is possible I am misquoting what I saw, and cannot prove my claim.
Last edited by Mjollnir : 05/26/08 at 12:13 AM.
Some Arms warrior put Improve Disciplines though which increase duration into 19 secs (that 4 seconds can make difference)
I think the more important question, which I still haven't been able to playtest accurately, is in what situation, if any, does it benefit Arms or Fury to swap to 2 fast weapons during execute range. Seems to be something most warriors have their own opinion about but is difficult to model accurately enough to have a definitive answer.
having 2 fast weapons definately helps execute better at lower rage levels. when all your cooldowns are finished (reck, haste pot, heroism) switch to 2 fast weapons and your executes will be much cleaner
Is it better to use a haste potion with bloodlust? or wait till BL is gone? DW warrior here, thinking of the brutallus fight mostly.
haste effects used together will provide the same benefit as when you use em 1 after another. Therefor it doesnt matter if you pop bloodlust + haste pot, or use bloodlust, and after its run out use haste pot. Provided the battle is the same length, it wont matter. If you wanna get more bang for you buck during heroism/bloodlust, you can pop a insane str potion as that will scale with the haste from bloodlust/heroism
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Originally Posted by Daerwen
haste effects used together will provide the same benefit as when you use em 1 after another.
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Originally Posted by Kupeludo
Wow Web Stats
This is our latest Brut. Our arms warrior in that is our second prot warrior, with only two sunwell dps items being bracers and belt. Has no cursed vision and was using solarian, we had no leader of the pack. So, provided with adequate sunwell gear (to match the fury warriors doing 2700 dps) a career arms warrior will be easily pushing 2k IMO with the same support shown in Wow Web Stats . Maybe a lot more to be honest. |
My gear is only a bit behind Shha's; 2 pieces of Sunwell, Solarian's. I'm on demo duty.
Wow Web Stats
No druid, ret pali was in the "extra" group with hunters and healers and I forgot to use my 2nd [Elixir of Demonslaying]
I did get 2 Bloodlusts though, like Shha. However, I didn't execute because the 2nd bloodlust was at 35%, before my death wish and potion were even up again. I was looking forward to breaking 2k with a nice finish blowing everything at once, but instead I kept up the rotation. This was the first kill I was able to sustain a full rotation the entire time without having rage problems, though I did clip an auto attack once.Blood Frenzy contributed ~526 (raid) DPS from the rogues, hunters, tanks and ret paladin.
I really want to try him with a [Shivering Felspine] and Poleaxe spec, just to see if rage gen. is more consistent, as I think I got lucky with it tonight.
Nice dps there, just wander seeing your WWS you only got 2x Unleashed Rage, did you get swapped in middle or fight?
My guild just recently work on Brutalus and i swap into Arms, but my guild somehow struggle to get Enchant Shaman online. I find it really hard to dps as arms without a windfury.
Also what factor make your Slam crit that high (4601), i think my gear is not that far behind from yours but i hardly seeing my slam higher that 4k only (that also in Deathwish period)
My guild just recently work on Brutalus and i swap into Arms, but my guild somehow struggle to get Enchant Shaman online. I find it really hard to dps as arms without a windfury.
Also what factor make your Slam crit that high (4601), i think my gear is not that far behind from yours but i hardly seeing my slam higher that 4k only (that also in Deathwish period)
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Originally Posted by Graul
Why would they if you use Death Wish, Recklessness or a Berserkers Call during the stacked haste? You can also beat the GCD with stacked haste at 20% instead of spreading it out as well.
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If you combine bloodlust with a haste pot alone, it doesnt matter wether you use it after or during the bloodlust if its the same time span. If you combine it with stuff like deathwish and recklessness + trinket + pot, then you should use that pot DURING bloodlust, and not after, to gain a bigger advantage of youre recklessness/deathwish/trinket on top of bloodlust.
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Originally Posted by milanista11
Nice dps there, just wander seeing your WWS you only got 2x Unleashed Rage, did you get swapped in middle or fight?
My guild just recently work on Brutalus and i swap into Arms, but my guild somehow struggle to get Enchant Shaman online. I find it really hard to dps as arms without a windfury. Also what factor make your Slam crit that high (4601), i think my gear is not that far behind from yours but i hardly seeing my slam higher that 4k only (that also in Deathwish period) |
I didn't get swapped though; the fact that Unleashed Rage was only applied to me twice is exceptionally good, it means my shaman kept critting a lot, so it nearly never fell off. He only had it once, so in fact it only fell off me when he was swapped out for the 1st Bloodlust.
My unbuffed AP is relatively low, as I gem for crit, so my highest slam is a fair bit lower than Modrack's (4735), and he actually had an incredible 5080 Mortal Strike. (his WWS from the last page: Wow Web Stats). If you don't run with a Survival Hunter, that'll take off 200 at least from your highest crits. Everything else is pretty normal for the fight: Unleashed Rage, CoR, Elixir of Demonslaying, Faerie Fire, 5xSunder...
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Originally Posted by Mode
This might not seem so good at first - but check out bloodbath and rend. Improved Bloodletting aka Improved Rend gives you +225% damage on rend and bloodbath. Rend now scales better and bloodbath...From someone with access to the database dump:
Bloodbath (rank 1) 15 Rage 5 yd range Instant Wound up to 5 enemy targets within 8 yards, causing 244 to 256 damage and causing them to Bleed for 250 damage over 15 sec. If the target becomes Enraged, the Bloodbath bleed effect causes four times the normal damage. No cooldown. Depending on how the numbers bear out in the end, Trauma could be very a nice boost to both your personal DPS and your tank's TPS, assuming rend and bloodbath are good enough to slot into the standard tank rotation. |
1. The talent is still lackluster. 15rage for 1250dmg + 1250dmg under optimal conditions. Mangle won't be on 5 targets at once realistically speaking. More can be done with this, or perhaps there is a scaling attribute that isn't being incorporated.
2. Bleed effects account for less than 2% of total dps. And 2% is being generous.
3. I have no control whatsoever on an NPC becoming enraged. If we are talking bosses hitting enrage timers, the fight is won or lost already. The pitiful dps gain from becoming enraged really matters little.
In a PvP or solo grinding senario, there could be applications. (I've merged some of the topics).
2. Bleed effects account for less than 2% of total dps. And 2% is being generous.
3. I have no control whatsoever on an NPC becoming enraged. If we are talking bosses hitting enrage timers, the fight is won or lost already. The pitiful dps gain from becoming enraged really matters little.
In a PvP or solo grinding senario, there could be applications. (I've merged some of the topics).
I believe they changed Imp Rend to increase your rend and bloodbath abilities by 275% or something like that. It actually seems like a pretty nice ability, although we don't know if there will be a lot of AOE situations in WotLK like in Hyjal. Time will tell.
Well BF is worth it for a lot of guilds. The only thing I ever said is that its not ALWAYS worth it. There are _real_ raid setups used by a considerable amount of guilds where BF is NOT worth it.
Graul i tried your "style" on todays Brutallus and it was working amazingly well. 1971 dps without a single slam use. BF debuff basically makes up for the dps loss (not a big surprise we run melee heavy, and BF was always worth it - just we had someone else usually do it). The interesting part is - 1971 dps while keeping imp clap and demo both. Especially clap completely screws slam rotation , so Id risk saying that way outperforms slamming. I dont think I could get 2k with slam use (not with my ping anyway but even beside that), while keeping clap. Demo? Maybe, clap, not a chance.
I kind of wonder what would be my "result" just going with 2h fury - gaining 600 ap 10% white and WW dmg vs losing 5% total due to SS ... interesting question .
Anyway back to other stuff - executes. I definitely think most spreadsheets are wrong with the dual wield switch. My execute as 2h were by FAR better then ever with fury.
1s) With capped expertise, you never miss anything. Not white attacks, not executes. You ALWAYS have rage on intervals equal to your weapon speed. Thats huge.
2s) Deathwish and improved recklessness are nuts. On brutallus i fucked up on our kill with DW and had no reck up (thats why 1971 could be way higher), but before... I just wait till Dst is about to Proc, (cooldown over), pop DW. Execute away with 1st Dst buff then haste pot with reck. Recklessness executes breakdown:
136 base haste, 80 drums = 216. With dst proc ~540 with haste pot ~610. Thats lets average it 35% haste.
3.5 Cataclysm speed.
3.5/[ 1.15(flurry)* 1.3(Heroism)*1.35(Haste)]=2 seconds.
Sure its a waste of gcd a bit. But my dps was still a lot higher because of complete predictability and rage generation. No miss streaks no wasting of 3 sec waiting for rage etc.
Recklessness for 19 seconds basically gives you:
6k white(including the 20% dmg from WF)
8.5k execute.
thats over 7k dps easily. My fury recklessness was getting around 5k dps tops.
Other executes during heroism (basically whole last 20%). - 4k white average, 5k executes around. Still 4k dps.
With smart haste use, execute phase actually shines with 2h. With my 9% hit dual wielding fast weapons wouldnt produce close to same results really.
P.S. Our enhancement shaman broke 2500 today on brutallus... it kinda feels "not right". You can talk about how BF adds 630 dps to raid. She adds 700+dps to every person in her group ^_^.
P.P.S 6300 Mortal strike crits are yummy (felmyst though, on brutallus i didnt had 4 piece t6 - stacked more ArP, on felmyst since i was capped i switched some gear to get more AP and 4pct6).
Graul i tried your "style" on todays Brutallus and it was working amazingly well. 1971 dps without a single slam use. BF debuff basically makes up for the dps loss (not a big surprise we run melee heavy, and BF was always worth it - just we had someone else usually do it). The interesting part is - 1971 dps while keeping imp clap and demo both. Especially clap completely screws slam rotation , so Id risk saying that way outperforms slamming. I dont think I could get 2k with slam use (not with my ping anyway but even beside that), while keeping clap. Demo? Maybe, clap, not a chance.
I kind of wonder what would be my "result" just going with 2h fury - gaining 600 ap 10% white and WW dmg vs losing 5% total due to SS ... interesting question .
Anyway back to other stuff - executes. I definitely think most spreadsheets are wrong with the dual wield switch. My execute as 2h were by FAR better then ever with fury.
1s) With capped expertise, you never miss anything. Not white attacks, not executes. You ALWAYS have rage on intervals equal to your weapon speed. Thats huge.
2s) Deathwish and improved recklessness are nuts. On brutallus i fucked up on our kill with DW and had no reck up (thats why 1971 could be way higher), but before... I just wait till Dst is about to Proc, (cooldown over), pop DW. Execute away with 1st Dst buff then haste pot with reck. Recklessness executes breakdown:
136 base haste, 80 drums = 216. With dst proc ~540 with haste pot ~610. Thats lets average it 35% haste.
3.5 Cataclysm speed.
3.5/[ 1.15(flurry)* 1.3(Heroism)*1.35(Haste)]=2 seconds.
Sure its a waste of gcd a bit. But my dps was still a lot higher because of complete predictability and rage generation. No miss streaks no wasting of 3 sec waiting for rage etc.
Recklessness for 19 seconds basically gives you:
6k white(including the 20% dmg from WF)
8.5k execute.
thats over 7k dps easily. My fury recklessness was getting around 5k dps tops.
Other executes during heroism (basically whole last 20%). - 4k white average, 5k executes around. Still 4k dps.
With smart haste use, execute phase actually shines with 2h. With my 9% hit dual wielding fast weapons wouldnt produce close to same results really.
P.S. Our enhancement shaman broke 2500 today on brutallus... it kinda feels "not right". You can talk about how BF adds 630 dps to raid. She adds 700+dps to every person in her group ^_^.
P.P.S 6300 Mortal strike crits are yummy
(felmyst though, on brutallus i didnt had 4 piece t6 - stacked more ArP, on felmyst since i was capped i switched some gear to get more AP and 4pct6).You have a parse for the attempt Shha?
Nice info there, just wander how much ArP you put for Brutallus ?
Edited onPatch 2.4.2
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Originally Posted by Shha
Well BF is worth it for a lot of guilds. The only thing I ever said is that its not ALWAYS worth it. There are _real_ raid setups used by a considerable amount of guilds where BF is NOT worth it.
Graul i tried your "style" on todays Brutallus and it was working amazingly well. 1971 dps without a single slam use. BF debuff basically makes up for the dps loss (not a big surprise we run melee heavy, and BF was always worth it - just we had someone else usually do it). The interesting part is - 1971 dps while keeping imp clap and demo both. Especially clap completely screws slam rotation , so Id risk saying that way outperforms slamming. I dont think I could get 2k with slam use (not with my ping anyway but even beside that), while keeping clap. Demo? Maybe, clap, not a chance. I kind of wonder what would be my "result" just going with 2h fury - gaining 600 ap 10% white and WW dmg vs losing 5% total due to SS ... interesting question . Anyway back to other stuff - executes. I definitely think most spreadsheets are wrong with the dual wield switch. My execute as 2h were by FAR better then ever with fury. 1s) With capped expertise, you never miss anything. Not white attacks, not executes. You ALWAYS have rage on intervals equal to your weapon speed. Thats huge. 2s) Deathwish and improved recklessness are nuts. On brutallus i fucked up on our kill with DW and had no reck up (thats why 1971 could be way higher), but before... I just wait till Dst is about to Proc, (cooldown over), pop DW. Execute away with 1st Dst buff then haste pot with reck. Recklessness executes breakdown: 136 base haste, 80 drums = 216. With dst proc ~540 with haste pot ~610. Thats lets average it 35% haste. 3.5 Cataclysm speed. 3.5/[ 1.15(flurry)* 1.3(Heroism)*1.35(Haste)]=2 seconds. Sure its a waste of gcd a bit. But my dps was still a lot higher because of complete predictability and rage generation. No miss streaks no wasting of 3 sec waiting for rage etc. Recklessness for 19 seconds basically gives you: 6k white(including the 20% dmg from WF) 8.5k execute. thats over 7k dps easily. My fury recklessness was getting around 5k dps tops. Other executes during heroism (basically whole last 20%). - 4k white average, 5k executes around. Still 4k dps. With smart haste use, execute phase actually shines with 2h. With my 9% hit dual wielding fast weapons wouldnt produce close to same results really. P.S. Our enhancement shaman broke 2500 today on brutallus... it kinda feels "not right". You can talk about how BF adds 630 dps to raid. She adds 700+dps to every person in her group ^_^. P.P.S 6300 Mortal strike crits are yummy (felmyst though, on brutallus i didnt had 4 piece t6 - stacked more ArP, on felmyst since i was capped i switched some gear to get more AP and 4pct6). |
Glad to see you tried it out and it was working for you. I still have not yet been able to try Brutallus like this yet, and last night was only the second raid night on farm content where I was able to mess around with this, but I was getting similar results to the previous WWS I posted, so at least I know it wasn't just some random fluke. And yeah, 2h Executes are better I believe, especially since you can break the GCD, and even after the haste effects start to scatter and your weapon might slow down a little bit more, it's still worth it simply because of not missing. You also miss a GCD when you switch weapons, or close enough to it anyway.
The limiting factor to this though is that I think you really need a DST and at the very least a sword. Every person that I had ever read about doing this had both.
Last edited by Graul : 05/28/08 at 9:40 AM.
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Originally Posted by milanista11
Nice info there, just wander how much ArP you put for Brutallus ?
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Or maybe i should just get a set with 1710 ArP for 6200 bosses and go back to mongoose on CE... thats something to consider too. Stable 0 armor at enemy + getting 4% crit/2% haste as proc doesnt seem all that bad.
So I'm a bit confused What exactly is this "no slam" rotation that Graul & Shha are discussing here?
Is is contingent on having a DST, for the increased haste?
Thanks in advance for any help.
Is is contingent on having a DST, for the increased haste?
Thanks in advance for any help.
In a nutshell it's just using your instants as soon as their cooldown is up, using Hamstring when one of them is on cooldown and you have at least 40 rage and using Heroic Strike at 60+ rage (which happens a lot with the frequent spikes up to 100). I also use Drums + Haste Potions + Blood Fury every time they are up as well as trying to use either the second or last Death Wish at BL/20%. I keep saying that it seems like it requires a few very specific items to even be useable, but that's just an opinion right now.
I think no slam rotation better for ppls with high ping (i usually averaging 500-600ms) gonna try no slam probably for this week raid.
I just wander the reason you throw hamstring is to get sword spec proc?
I just wander the reason you throw hamstring is to get sword spec proc?
Flurry, BF, DST, SoC, Enchants and Sword Spec.
22:12'57.015 Graul's Swing crits Coilskar Sea-Caller for 2283 Physical damage
22:12'57.781 Graul's Swing hits Coilskar Sea-Caller for 1129 Physical damage
22:12'58.656 Graul's Mortal Strike hits Coilskar Sea-Caller for 1382 Physical damage
22:12'59.921 Graul's Whirlwind hits Coilskar Sea-Caller for 1154 Physical damage
22:13'00.234 Graul gains Executioner
22:12'31.828 Graul's Swing hits Aqueous Spawn for 971 Physical damage
22:12'32.890 Graul's Hamstring hits Aqueous Spawn for 44 Physical damage
22:12'34.953 Graul gains 1 Attack from Sword Specialization
22:12'57.781 Graul's Swing hits Coilskar Sea-Caller for 1129 Physical damage
22:12'58.656 Graul's Mortal Strike hits Coilskar Sea-Caller for 1382 Physical damage
22:12'59.921 Graul's Whirlwind hits Coilskar Sea-Caller for 1154 Physical damage
22:13'00.234 Graul gains Executioner
22:12'31.828 Graul's Swing hits Aqueous Spawn for 971 Physical damage
22:12'32.890 Graul's Hamstring hits Aqueous Spawn for 44 Physical damage
22:12'34.953 Graul gains 1 Attack from Sword Specialization
I started seeing more and more posts about this over the past few days, gonna have to give it a shot next time I'm at Brut. Quick question though, once all is said and done, and you have your ideal gear, will you still be keeping your 4 peice bonus? Or will you get Twins shoulders, Crafted Chest, KJ Gloves, etc. Personally I am leaning more towards keeping T6 shoulders, but the way this rotation works the Twins shoulders are actually very nice, along with the Brut legs.
I just recently picked up the shoulders after passing on them for months due to them not being a big upgrade over the Blood-Stained without the four piece bonus. And until Sunwell, it wasn't really worth trying to chase. I don't know how dead on accurate the spreadsheets are with the bonus, but it puts the Onslaught at least equal to, if not better than any of the others in Sunwell. Plus they look better than any of the other shoulders. I also don't have the chest, but the shoulders, boots, belt and bracer, so I definitely want to upgrade my chest sometime.
I realize I'm starting to get all "QQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQ" about this topic, but man it is beyond time for warriors to push getting rid of extra damage in bers stance, through a talent if we absolutely MUST keep it for arena.
Experiencing the KJ fight there is yet again, tons of crap all over the place hitting everyone for 91% of what I am getting hit for. I realize that there will always be a place for a warrior in a raid given how insane battleshout is for 4 other melee classes, but you are consistantly taking the most damage of anyone in the group. Assuming WoTLK will be featuring these types of encounters more regularly, I hope this get adjusted.
Experiencing the KJ fight there is yet again, tons of crap all over the place hitting everyone for 91% of what I am getting hit for. I realize that there will always be a place for a warrior in a raid given how insane battleshout is for 4 other melee classes, but you are consistantly taking the most damage of anyone in the group. Assuming WoTLK will be featuring these types of encounters more regularly, I hope this get adjusted.
Plate dps gear is itemized for more stam to make up for it, thats my guess.
Some of these numbers that get thrown around here are just mind boggling. Shha's 2700 parse of Brutallus still confounds me. I reassure myself by telling myself things like "oh, they're using two personal-dps trinkets instead of Solarian's" and, "oh, they've got some freaky group comp where they get an Enh Shaman, a Feral Druid, and a Ret Paladin somehow all in the same group and are getting Blood Frenzy as well" and "oh, they're using Imp EA instead of Sunder". Still, even under those incredibly ideal circumstances I'd be hard pressed to pull off 2700.
I've only personally done Brutallus once because there's only room for one DPS Warrior in our regular roster and for that fight and the Arms Warrior has dibs until his loot drops. I got burned twice and switched to Battle for most of it, then Defensive for the last 10 seconds to minimize burn. That, of course, gimped my damage but I still only ended up at like 1950 on it.
I don't know. You darn punks with your Imp EA and two personal DPS trinkets are making the rest of us look bad!
I've only personally done Brutallus once because there's only room for one DPS Warrior in our regular roster and for that fight and the Arms Warrior has dibs until his loot drops. I got burned twice and switched to Battle for most of it, then Defensive for the last 10 seconds to minimize burn. That, of course, gimped my damage but I still only ended up at like 1950 on it.
I don't know. You darn punks with your Imp EA and two personal DPS trinkets are making the rest of us look bad!
That may have been the case before, but a handful of items that had stats allocated specifically for DPS have no stamina, which almost seems like a backwards way of doing things. I noticed also when we first started doing Sunwell that I was taking more damage from AE effects on average than I had in any of the previous zones. BT and Hyjal had their fair share of AE obviously, but they seemed to come in smaller chunks of damage at a time, and even the big waves were not that bad to heal through and almost never put me even at half life. This was of course when I also had a little over 600 more hit points.
[Onslaught Belt]
[Onslaught Bracers]
[Onslaught Treads]
The reduction of stamina isn't so bad by itself, but in conjunction to the increased damage taken in Berserker it's pretty annoying.
I'm sure RNG has a lot to do with it, as well as buffs and debuffs getting bounced or simply falling off of Brutallus, but on our first kill I only did around 1980, but then on the next did 2190 and then 2299 after that. I personally did nothing different and the raid makeup was the same. The first kill time took around 20 seconds longer, but the last two did not have greater than a 5 second disparity.
[Onslaught Belt]
[Onslaught Bracers]
[Onslaught Treads]
The reduction of stamina isn't so bad by itself, but in conjunction to the increased damage taken in Berserker it's pretty annoying.
| That, of course, gimped my damage but I still only ended up at like 1950 on it. |
2700 DPS on Brutallus is extremely atypical. I would venture to guess that maybe a handful of Warriors have done that or better.
Berserker stance needs to have that penalty removed. There are far too many encounters where constant damage is part of it, and its a huge drawback to Warriors in a DPS role.
I also think they need to rethink the 110% for melee and 130% for ranged aggro snap thresholds.
Berserker stance needs to have that penalty removed. There are far too many encounters where constant damage is part of it, and its a huge drawback to Warriors in a DPS role.
I also think they need to rethink the 110% for melee and 130% for ranged aggro snap thresholds.
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Originally Posted by Mardraum
Plate dps gear is itemized for more stam to make up for it, thats my guess.
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Raid buffed I have less than 10K HP these days.
And furthermore, we are the only class itemized in such a way... perhaps to prevent Arena usage? I know I am still using t6 bracers, regardless of the lack of stam ( Maybe I would switch to Furious Shackles for 5's ).
Which at this point, given the "rushdown" aspect of rogue gearing, I find so rediculous as to be stupid in the extreme.
I'm hoping to pick up a DST soon to test out this no slam DPS with an Apolyon, and perhaps some haste stacking along with smart ArPen items. I remember when I first switched to fury from 2h MS in the Molten Core days, and I felt overwhelmed with the amount of crap going on. Now after babysitting my swing timer for the last 10 months going fury feels pretty liberating.
Perhaps there is a nice middle ground where you have a white - > slam ratio of something like 5:1 which would combine the best of both worlds, and only slam when you're 99% sure of a good slam, and only that small chance of clipping a sword proc.
Which at this point, given the "rushdown" aspect of rogue gearing, I find so rediculous as to be stupid in the extreme.
I'm hoping to pick up a DST soon to test out this no slam DPS with an Apolyon, and perhaps some haste stacking along with smart ArPen items. I remember when I first switched to fury from 2h MS in the Molten Core days, and I felt overwhelmed with the amount of crap going on. Now after babysitting my swing timer for the last 10 months going fury feels pretty liberating.
Perhaps there is a nice middle ground where you have a white - > slam ratio of something like 5:1 which would combine the best of both worlds, and only slam when you're 99% sure of a good slam, and only that small chance of clipping a sword proc.
I dunno im at 14k raid buffed and i have all the t6 set pieces from sunwell + BT/hyjal gear...
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Originally Posted by Mardraum
I dunno im at 14k raid buffed and i have all the t6 set pieces from sunwell + BT/hyjal gear...
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Why yes... you certainly do. That's a lot of tier 6.|
Originally Posted by LodeRunner
Some of these numbers that get thrown around here are just mind boggling. Shha's 2700 parse of Brutallus still confounds me. I reassure myself by telling myself things like "oh, they're using two personal-dps trinkets instead of Solarian's" and, "oh, they've got some freaky group comp where they get an Enh Shaman, a Feral Druid, and a Ret Paladin somehow all in the same group and are getting Blood Frenzy as well" and "oh, they're using Imp EA instead of Sunder". Still, even under those incredibly ideal circumstances I'd be hard pressed to pull off 2700.
I've only personally done Brutallus once because there's only room for one DPS Warrior in our regular roster and for that fight and the Arms Warrior has dibs until his loot drops. I got burned twice and switched to Battle for most of it, then Defensive for the last 10 seconds to minimize burn. That, of course, gimped my damage but I still only ended up at like 1950 on it. I don't know. You darn punks with your Imp EA and two personal DPS trinkets are making the rest of us look bad! |
As for group comp - i never had all 3 feral/ret/enh. Basically my group setups is typical for a guild thats melee heavy. If you run 2 melee groups, thats what you usually end up with.
Ironically enough, I can do a lot better now. I got tons of upgrades since last time, but threat starts to really be an issue. Im not sure what kind of threat your tanks put, but 2700 was already taxing for me - i was riding 100+% aggroand had to cut heroics few times, and skip one BT/WW/BT. All in all its around 1400 sustained TPS, on a fight where while rage flooded, your tanks dont exactly go with aggro gear. Maybe its our druids too - they do fine aggro on some fights and good OT, but i guess with endless rage, expertise capped sunwell warriors would do better. Anyway I really dont think ill be beating 2700 significantly anytime soon - unless i start doing crap like getting a DI from our ret etc. Im threat capped at ~2700 when my gear i believe allows for 2900-3000 currently. Partly the reason why I experiment with 2h for him - fury gets old really fast where you have no room to improve.
EDIT: As for hp, both Shed and Madraum are exagerating. Shed has about same stamina on gear as me - thats realm of 12500 raid buffed. Didnt check Madraum but i doubt 14k. Still even if we have 10% more hp than rogues, thats 10% more healing to be done as well...
If we run 2 dps warriors in the melee group we get imp commanding shout == 14k
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Originally Posted by Shha
Personal dps trinkets actually end up better in my math. Especially if your guild does the 4:30 kills, you just put solarian on, battleshout on pull then switch it out. 2-3 mins of improved battleshout - and personal trinket there - best of 2 worlds.
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I tried this in arena and thats what I found. (Or does it only not work in arenas?)
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Originally Posted by shed
That's really funny considering all the T6 plate in Sunwell has 0 stam (i guess you can count the socket bonus for some peices as stam?).
Raid buffed I have less than 10K HP these days. |
The T6 sunwell items as I recall went through 3 versions. The first had pretty bad stats and high stamina. The second had better stats, but stamina removed. Then the third they added stamina to all but the warrior DPS set. Now this would make sense if the warrior DPS items had better DPS stats than the other classes, so that the same budget had been spent, but as can be seen by comparing our T6 sunwell gear to ret paladins T6 gear, this isn't the case. They have near identical stats and stamina. Blizzards motive for this? I guess is to stop us wearing it in arena, but why should that only affect us, and not other classes? Seems very unfair..
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Originally Posted by Crimsonstorm
I thought this didnt work? When you equip a different trinket your AP provided by that battle shout goes down.
I tried this in arena and thats what I found. (Or does it only not work in arenas?) |
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Originally Posted by LodeRunner
The extra AP stays on the other 4 people you buffed, but you personally lose the 87.5 AP. This, of course, is made up for by the DST/Shard you just equipped in its stead.
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Edited onPatch 2.4.2
Stamina on SWP T6 pieces
The only piece where you lose high amounts of stamina when switching to a T6 piece are the boots.
Bracers of Eradication (socketed with 10 Str) -> Onslaught Bracers = -9 Stam (Eradication has 12 Stam, Onslaught Bracers 3 (Socket Bonus)).
Red Belt of Battle (socketed with purple/orange) = 28 Stam.
37 Stam therefore lost with switching 2 pieces.
Dreadboots of the Legion -> Onslaught Treads = -40 Stam (!)
This results in a overall loss of 770 LP. Not THAT bad I think. Anyway you get stamina back with some SWP items (for example, the Thrown weapon out the trash). But the fact that we haven't more stats but zero stamina on SWP T6 gear is holding on...
Bracers of Eradication (socketed with 10 Str) -> Onslaught Bracers = -9 Stam (Eradication has 12 Stam, Onslaught Bracers 3 (Socket Bonus)).
Red Belt of Battle (socketed with purple/orange) = 28 Stam.
37 Stam therefore lost with switching 2 pieces.
Dreadboots of the Legion -> Onslaught Treads = -40 Stam (!)
This results in a overall loss of 770 LP. Not THAT bad I think. Anyway you get stamina back with some SWP items (for example, the Thrown weapon out the trash). But the fact that we haven't more stats but zero stamina on SWP T6 gear is holding on...
Last edited by Kaan : 06/01/08 at 10:38 PM.
Here's a WWS of the Teron tonite (bad M'uru group, QQ) using the no-slam rotation for the first time.
Wow Web Stats
Was grouped with 2 rogues, another DPS war, and an enhancement shammy I beleive, with no elixirs/pots and whatnot, overall I liked it, but it will take a little getting used too, as it's a lot different then slam rotation. I'd like to give it a try on Brutallus next week in Sunwell to get a better read on DPS, but looks promising so far. I didn't get a sub-20% heroism which kind of sucked, but with DST and flurry being up made it ok.
If I had to decide right now I'd say DST is an absolute must, the haste proc makes the rotation great.
The rotation is most definitly promising though, looking forward to trying it out some more on different fights.
As of me posting this armory spec and gear isn't updated btw, only gear swap was DST for Beserkers, and spec is 33/28 but with 2 pts in Imp Execute instead of Imp Slam.
P.S. ROS kind of sucked with it, I spent almost all of phase 2 threat capped. >< Definitely one of the downsides of the rotation.
Wow Web Stats
Was grouped with 2 rogues, another DPS war, and an enhancement shammy I beleive, with no elixirs/pots and whatnot, overall I liked it, but it will take a little getting used too, as it's a lot different then slam rotation. I'd like to give it a try on Brutallus next week in Sunwell to get a better read on DPS, but looks promising so far. I didn't get a sub-20% heroism which kind of sucked, but with DST and flurry being up made it ok.
If I had to decide right now I'd say DST is an absolute must, the haste proc makes the rotation great.
The rotation is most definitly promising though, looking forward to trying it out some more on different fights.
As of me posting this armory spec and gear isn't updated btw, only gear swap was DST for Beserkers, and spec is 33/28 but with 2 pts in Imp Execute instead of Imp Slam.
P.S. ROS kind of sucked with it, I spent almost all of phase 2 threat capped. >< Definitely one of the downsides of the rotation.
We might get more STA on our T6.5 pieces if armor wasn't considered in the item budget. I'm surprised I don't hear more people complaining about it. The fact that our gear has less stats allocated to it just because it's plate seems rather absurd.
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Originally Posted by Kaan
The only piece where you lose high amounts of stamina when switching to a T6 piece are the boots.
Bracers of Eradication (socketed with 10 Str) -> Onslaught Bracers = -9 Stam (Eradication has 12 Stam, Onslaught Bracers 3 (Socket Bonus)). Red Belt of Battle (socketed with purple/orange) = 28 Stam. 37 Stam therefore lost with switching 2 pieces. Dreadboots of the Legion -> Onslaught Treads = -40 Stam (!) This results in a overall loss of 770 LP. Not THAT bad I think. Anyway you get stamina back with some SWP items (for example, the Thrown weapon out the trash). But the fact that we haven't more stats but zero stamina on SWP T6 gear is holding on... |
I calculate that we lose 1056 health. 28 stam from belt, bracers and 40 from boots + kings. Given the fact that raid wide damage has increased by some factor on top of which we take the most damage in a raid wide damage scenario along with losing 10% of our health. I guess this would make sense if this current set of raid gear was balanced finally by someone with an arena mindset, but I find that annoying, or discouraging, given how prevalent rogue pve gear is in arena settings. This desire for t6 is at least far more than it is for warriors, unless people are playing a different game than I am where I get owned in about 2 seconds in 5's with 350-380 Resil coupled with a stun.
In a nutshell it's just using your instants as soon as their cooldown is up, using Hamstring when one of them is on cooldown and you have at least 40 rage and using Heroic Strike at 60+ rage (which happens a lot with the frequent spikes up to 100). I also use Drums + Haste Potions + Blood Fury every time they are up as well as trying to use either the second or last Death Wish at BL/20%. I keep saying that it seems like it requires a few very specific items to even be useable, but that's just an opinion right now.
I think no slam rotation better for ppls with high ping (i usually averaging 500-600ms) gonna try no slam probably for this week raid.
I just wander the reason you throw hamstring is to get sword spec proc?
I just wander the reason you throw hamstring is to get sword spec proc?
Flurry, BF, DST, SoC, Enchants and Sword Spec.
22:12'57.015 Graul's Swing crits Coilskar Sea-Caller for 2283 Physical damage
22:12'57.781 Graul's Swing hits Coilskar Sea-Caller for 1129 Physical damage
22:12'58.656 Graul's Mortal Strike hits Coilskar Sea-Caller for 1382 Physical damage
22:12'59.921 Graul's Whirlwind hits Coilskar Sea-Caller for 1154 Physical damage
22:13'00.234 Graul gains Executioner
22:12'31.828 Graul's Swing hits Aqueous Spawn for 971 Physical damage
22:12'32.890 Graul's Hamstring hits Aqueous Spawn for 44 Physical damage
22:12'34.953 Graul gains 1 Attack from Sword Specialization
22:12'57.781 Graul's Swing hits Coilskar Sea-Caller for 1129 Physical damage
22:12'58.656 Graul's Mortal Strike hits Coilskar Sea-Caller for 1382 Physical damage
22:12'59.921 Graul's Whirlwind hits Coilskar Sea-Caller for 1154 Physical damage
22:13'00.234 Graul gains Executioner
22:12'31.828 Graul's Swing hits Aqueous Spawn for 971 Physical damage
22:12'32.890 Graul's Hamstring hits Aqueous Spawn for 44 Physical damage
22:12'34.953 Graul gains 1 Attack from Sword Specialization
I started seeing more and more posts about this over the past few days, gonna have to give it a shot next time I'm at Brut. Quick question though, once all is said and done, and you have your ideal gear, will you still be keeping your 4 peice bonus? Or will you get Twins shoulders, Crafted Chest, KJ Gloves, etc. Personally I am leaning more towards keeping T6 shoulders, but the way this rotation works the Twins shoulders are actually very nice, along with the Brut legs.
I just recently picked up the shoulders after passing on them for months due to them not being a big upgrade over the Blood-Stained without the four piece bonus. And until Sunwell, it wasn't really worth trying to chase. I don't know how dead on accurate the spreadsheets are with the bonus, but it puts the Onslaught at least equal to, if not better than any of the others in Sunwell. Plus they look better than any of the other shoulders. I also don't have the chest, but the shoulders, boots, belt and bracer, so I definitely want to upgrade my chest sometime.
I realize I'm starting to get all "QQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQ" about this topic, but man it is beyond time for warriors to push getting rid of extra damage in bers stance, through a talent if we absolutely MUST keep it for arena.
Experiencing the KJ fight there is yet again, tons of crap all over the place hitting everyone for 91% of what I am getting hit for. I realize that there will always be a place for a warrior in a raid given how insane battleshout is for 4 other melee classes, but you are consistantly taking the most damage of anyone in the group. Assuming WoTLK will be featuring these types of encounters more regularly, I hope this get adjusted.
Experiencing the KJ fight there is yet again, tons of crap all over the place hitting everyone for 91% of what I am getting hit for. I realize that there will always be a place for a warrior in a raid given how insane battleshout is for 4 other melee classes, but you are consistantly taking the most damage of anyone in the group. Assuming WoTLK will be featuring these types of encounters more regularly, I hope this get adjusted.
Plate dps gear is itemized for more stam to make up for it, thats my guess.
Some of these numbers that get thrown around here are just mind boggling. Shha's 2700 parse of Brutallus still confounds me. I reassure myself by telling myself things like "oh, they're using two personal-dps trinkets instead of Solarian's" and, "oh, they've got some freaky group comp where they get an Enh Shaman, a Feral Druid, and a Ret Paladin somehow all in the same group and are getting Blood Frenzy as well" and "oh, they're using Imp EA instead of Sunder". Still, even under those incredibly ideal circumstances I'd be hard pressed to pull off 2700.
I've only personally done Brutallus once because there's only room for one DPS Warrior in our regular roster and for that fight and the Arms Warrior has dibs until his loot drops. I got burned twice and switched to Battle for most of it, then Defensive for the last 10 seconds to minimize burn. That, of course, gimped my damage but I still only ended up at like 1950 on it.
I don't know. You darn punks with your Imp EA and two personal DPS trinkets are making the rest of us look bad!
I've only personally done Brutallus once because there's only room for one DPS Warrior in our regular roster and for that fight and the Arms Warrior has dibs until his loot drops. I got burned twice and switched to Battle for most of it, then Defensive for the last 10 seconds to minimize burn. That, of course, gimped my damage but I still only ended up at like 1950 on it.
I don't know. You darn punks with your Imp EA and two personal DPS trinkets are making the rest of us look bad!
That may have been the case before, but a handful of items that had stats allocated specifically for DPS have no stamina, which almost seems like a backwards way of doing things. I noticed also when we first started doing Sunwell that I was taking more damage from AE effects on average than I had in any of the previous zones. BT and Hyjal had their fair share of AE obviously, but they seemed to come in smaller chunks of damage at a time, and even the big waves were not that bad to heal through and almost never put me even at half life. This was of course when I also had a little over 600 more hit points.
[Onslaught Belt]
[Onslaught Bracers]
[Onslaught Treads]
The reduction of stamina isn't so bad by itself, but in conjunction to the increased damage taken in Berserker it's pretty annoying.
I'm sure RNG has a lot to do with it, as well as buffs and debuffs getting bounced or simply falling off of Brutallus, but on our first kill I only did around 1980, but then on the next did 2190 and then 2299 after that. I personally did nothing different and the raid makeup was the same. The first kill time took around 20 seconds longer, but the last two did not have greater than a 5 second disparity.
[Onslaught Belt]
[Onslaught Bracers]
[Onslaught Treads]
The reduction of stamina isn't so bad by itself, but in conjunction to the increased damage taken in Berserker it's pretty annoying.
| That, of course, gimped my damage but I still only ended up at like 1950 on it. |
2700 DPS on Brutallus is extremely atypical. I would venture to guess that maybe a handful of Warriors have done that or better.
Berserker stance needs to have that penalty removed. There are far too many encounters where constant damage is part of it, and its a huge drawback to Warriors in a DPS role.
I also think they need to rethink the 110% for melee and 130% for ranged aggro snap thresholds.
Berserker stance needs to have that penalty removed. There are far too many encounters where constant damage is part of it, and its a huge drawback to Warriors in a DPS role.
I also think they need to rethink the 110% for melee and 130% for ranged aggro snap thresholds.
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Originally Posted by Mardraum
Plate dps gear is itemized for more stam to make up for it, thats my guess.
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Raid buffed I have less than 10K HP these days.
And furthermore, we are the only class itemized in such a way... perhaps to prevent Arena usage? I know I am still using t6 bracers, regardless of the lack of stam ( Maybe I would switch to Furious Shackles for 5's ).
Which at this point, given the "rushdown" aspect of rogue gearing, I find so rediculous as to be stupid in the extreme.
I'm hoping to pick up a DST soon to test out this no slam DPS with an Apolyon, and perhaps some haste stacking along with smart ArPen items. I remember when I first switched to fury from 2h MS in the Molten Core days, and I felt overwhelmed with the amount of crap going on. Now after babysitting my swing timer for the last 10 months going fury feels pretty liberating.
Perhaps there is a nice middle ground where you have a white - > slam ratio of something like 5:1 which would combine the best of both worlds, and only slam when you're 99% sure of a good slam, and only that small chance of clipping a sword proc.
Which at this point, given the "rushdown" aspect of rogue gearing, I find so rediculous as to be stupid in the extreme.
I'm hoping to pick up a DST soon to test out this no slam DPS with an Apolyon, and perhaps some haste stacking along with smart ArPen items. I remember when I first switched to fury from 2h MS in the Molten Core days, and I felt overwhelmed with the amount of crap going on. Now after babysitting my swing timer for the last 10 months going fury feels pretty liberating.
Perhaps there is a nice middle ground where you have a white - > slam ratio of something like 5:1 which would combine the best of both worlds, and only slam when you're 99% sure of a good slam, and only that small chance of clipping a sword proc.
I dunno im at 14k raid buffed and i have all the t6 set pieces from sunwell + BT/hyjal gear...
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Originally Posted by Mardraum
I dunno im at 14k raid buffed and i have all the t6 set pieces from sunwell + BT/hyjal gear...
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Why yes... you certainly do. That's a lot of tier 6.|
Originally Posted by LodeRunner
Some of these numbers that get thrown around here are just mind boggling. Shha's 2700 parse of Brutallus still confounds me. I reassure myself by telling myself things like "oh, they're using two personal-dps trinkets instead of Solarian's" and, "oh, they've got some freaky group comp where they get an Enh Shaman, a Feral Druid, and a Ret Paladin somehow all in the same group and are getting Blood Frenzy as well" and "oh, they're using Imp EA instead of Sunder". Still, even under those incredibly ideal circumstances I'd be hard pressed to pull off 2700.
I've only personally done Brutallus once because there's only room for one DPS Warrior in our regular roster and for that fight and the Arms Warrior has dibs until his loot drops. I got burned twice and switched to Battle for most of it, then Defensive for the last 10 seconds to minimize burn. That, of course, gimped my damage but I still only ended up at like 1950 on it. I don't know. You darn punks with your Imp EA and two personal DPS trinkets are making the rest of us look bad! |
As for group comp - i never had all 3 feral/ret/enh. Basically my group setups is typical for a guild thats melee heavy. If you run 2 melee groups, thats what you usually end up with.
Ironically enough, I can do a lot better now. I got tons of upgrades since last time, but threat starts to really be an issue. Im not sure what kind of threat your tanks put, but 2700 was already taxing for me - i was riding 100+% aggroand had to cut heroics few times, and skip one BT/WW/BT. All in all its around 1400 sustained TPS, on a fight where while rage flooded, your tanks dont exactly go with aggro gear. Maybe its our druids too - they do fine aggro on some fights and good OT, but i guess with endless rage, expertise capped sunwell warriors would do better. Anyway I really dont think ill be beating 2700 significantly anytime soon - unless i start doing crap like getting a DI from our ret etc. Im threat capped at ~2700 when my gear i believe allows for 2900-3000 currently. Partly the reason why I experiment with 2h for him - fury gets old really fast where you have no room to improve.
EDIT: As for hp, both Shed and Madraum are exagerating. Shed has about same stamina on gear as me - thats realm of 12500 raid buffed. Didnt check Madraum but i doubt 14k. Still even if we have 10% more hp than rogues, thats 10% more healing to be done as well...
If we run 2 dps warriors in the melee group we get imp commanding shout == 14k
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Originally Posted by Shha
Personal dps trinkets actually end up better in my math. Especially if your guild does the 4:30 kills, you just put solarian on, battleshout on pull then switch it out. 2-3 mins of improved battleshout - and personal trinket there - best of 2 worlds.
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I tried this in arena and thats what I found. (Or does it only not work in arenas?)
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Originally Posted by shed
That's really funny considering all the T6 plate in Sunwell has 0 stam (i guess you can count the socket bonus for some peices as stam?).
Raid buffed I have less than 10K HP these days. |
The T6 sunwell items as I recall went through 3 versions. The first had pretty bad stats and high stamina. The second had better stats, but stamina removed. Then the third they added stamina to all but the warrior DPS set. Now this would make sense if the warrior DPS items had better DPS stats than the other classes, so that the same budget had been spent, but as can be seen by comparing our T6 sunwell gear to ret paladins T6 gear, this isn't the case. They have near identical stats and stamina. Blizzards motive for this? I guess is to stop us wearing it in arena, but why should that only affect us, and not other classes? Seems very unfair..
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Originally Posted by Crimsonstorm
I thought this didnt work? When you equip a different trinket your AP provided by that battle shout goes down.
I tried this in arena and thats what I found. (Or does it only not work in arenas?) |
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Originally Posted by LodeRunner
The extra AP stays on the other 4 people you buffed, but you personally lose the 87.5 AP. This, of course, is made up for by the DST/Shard you just equipped in its stead.
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Edited onPatch 2.4.2
Stamina on SWP T6 pieces
The only piece where you lose high amounts of stamina when switching to a T6 piece are the boots.
Bracers of Eradication (socketed with 10 Str) -> Onslaught Bracers = -9 Stam (Eradication has 12 Stam, Onslaught Bracers 3 (Socket Bonus)).
Red Belt of Battle (socketed with purple/orange) = 28 Stam.
37 Stam therefore lost with switching 2 pieces.
Dreadboots of the Legion -> Onslaught Treads = -40 Stam (!)
This results in a overall loss of 770 LP. Not THAT bad I think. Anyway you get stamina back with some SWP items (for example, the Thrown weapon out the trash). But the fact that we haven't more stats but zero stamina on SWP T6 gear is holding on...
Bracers of Eradication (socketed with 10 Str) -> Onslaught Bracers = -9 Stam (Eradication has 12 Stam, Onslaught Bracers 3 (Socket Bonus)).
Red Belt of Battle (socketed with purple/orange) = 28 Stam.
37 Stam therefore lost with switching 2 pieces.
Dreadboots of the Legion -> Onslaught Treads = -40 Stam (!)
This results in a overall loss of 770 LP. Not THAT bad I think. Anyway you get stamina back with some SWP items (for example, the Thrown weapon out the trash). But the fact that we haven't more stats but zero stamina on SWP T6 gear is holding on...
Last edited by Kaan : 06/01/08 at 10:38 PM.
Here's a WWS of the Teron tonite (bad M'uru group, QQ) using the no-slam rotation for the first time.
Wow Web Stats
Was grouped with 2 rogues, another DPS war, and an enhancement shammy I beleive, with no elixirs/pots and whatnot, overall I liked it, but it will take a little getting used too, as it's a lot different then slam rotation. I'd like to give it a try on Brutallus next week in Sunwell to get a better read on DPS, but looks promising so far. I didn't get a sub-20% heroism which kind of sucked, but with DST and flurry being up made it ok.
If I had to decide right now I'd say DST is an absolute must, the haste proc makes the rotation great.
The rotation is most definitly promising though, looking forward to trying it out some more on different fights.
As of me posting this armory spec and gear isn't updated btw, only gear swap was DST for Beserkers, and spec is 33/28 but with 2 pts in Imp Execute instead of Imp Slam.
P.S. ROS kind of sucked with it, I spent almost all of phase 2 threat capped. >< Definitely one of the downsides of the rotation.
Wow Web Stats
Was grouped with 2 rogues, another DPS war, and an enhancement shammy I beleive, with no elixirs/pots and whatnot, overall I liked it, but it will take a little getting used too, as it's a lot different then slam rotation. I'd like to give it a try on Brutallus next week in Sunwell to get a better read on DPS, but looks promising so far. I didn't get a sub-20% heroism which kind of sucked, but with DST and flurry being up made it ok.
If I had to decide right now I'd say DST is an absolute must, the haste proc makes the rotation great.
The rotation is most definitly promising though, looking forward to trying it out some more on different fights.
As of me posting this armory spec and gear isn't updated btw, only gear swap was DST for Beserkers, and spec is 33/28 but with 2 pts in Imp Execute instead of Imp Slam.
P.S. ROS kind of sucked with it, I spent almost all of phase 2 threat capped. >< Definitely one of the downsides of the rotation.
We might get more STA on our T6.5 pieces if armor wasn't considered in the item budget. I'm surprised I don't hear more people complaining about it. The fact that our gear has less stats allocated to it just because it's plate seems rather absurd.
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Originally Posted by Kaan
The only piece where you lose high amounts of stamina when switching to a T6 piece are the boots.
Bracers of Eradication (socketed with 10 Str) -> Onslaught Bracers = -9 Stam (Eradication has 12 Stam, Onslaught Bracers 3 (Socket Bonus)). Red Belt of Battle (socketed with purple/orange) = 28 Stam. 37 Stam therefore lost with switching 2 pieces. Dreadboots of the Legion -> Onslaught Treads = -40 Stam (!) This results in a overall loss of 770 LP. Not THAT bad I think. Anyway you get stamina back with some SWP items (for example, the Thrown weapon out the trash). But the fact that we haven't more stats but zero stamina on SWP T6 gear is holding on... |
I calculate that we lose 1056 health. 28 stam from belt, bracers and 40 from boots + kings. Given the fact that raid wide damage has increased by some factor on top of which we take the most damage in a raid wide damage scenario along with losing 10% of our health. I guess this would make sense if this current set of raid gear was balanced finally by someone with an arena mindset, but I find that annoying, or discouraging, given how prevalent rogue pve gear is in arena settings. This desire for t6 is at least far more than it is for warriors, unless people are playing a different game than I am where I get owned in about 2 seconds in 5's with 350-380 Resil coupled with a stun.
This no-slam rotation really got me interested.
But regarding spec for this, what do you think about going 28/33 instead of 33/28 getting an extra 10% from Flurry and 2sec faster cooldown on Whirlwind instead of Improved Discipline (2/3)/Improved Intercept and Blood Frenzy?
Would it even be possible to outdo 17/44 with it? Considering you got optimal gear like this ~ chardev.org - A World of Warcraft character planner v.3.a
Or am I just whising to come up with something innovative here?
But regarding spec for this, what do you think about going 28/33 instead of 33/28 getting an extra 10% from Flurry and 2sec faster cooldown on Whirlwind instead of Improved Discipline (2/3)/Improved Intercept and Blood Frenzy?
Would it even be possible to outdo 17/44 with it? Considering you got optimal gear like this ~ chardev.org - A World of Warcraft character planner v.3.a
Or am I just whising to come up with something innovative here?
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Originally Posted by Ramayana
Here's a WWS of the Teron tonite (bad M'uru group, QQ) using the no-slam rotation for the first time.
Wow Web Stats Was grouped with 2 rogues, another DPS war, and an enhancement shammy I beleive, with no elixirs/pots and whatnot, overall I liked it, but it will take a little getting used too, as it's a lot different then slam rotation. I'd like to give it a try on Brutallus next week in Sunwell to get a better read on DPS, but looks promising so far. I didn't get a sub-20% heroism which kind of sucked, but with DST and flurry being up made it ok. If I had to decide right now I'd say DST is an absolute must, the haste proc makes the rotation great. The rotation is most definitly promising though, looking forward to trying it out some more on different fights. As of me posting this armory spec and gear isn't updated btw, only gear swap was DST for Beserkers, and spec is 33/28 but with 2 pts in Imp Execute instead of Imp Slam. P.S. ROS kind of sucked with it, I spent almost all of phase 2 threat capped. >< Definitely one of the downsides of the rotation. |
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Originally Posted by Smörj
This no-slam rotation really got me interested.
But regarding spec for this, what do you think about going 28/33 instead of 33/28 getting an extra 10% from Flurry and 2sec faster cooldown on Whirlwind instead of Improved Discipline (2/3)/Improved Intercept and Blood Frenzy? Would it even be possible to outdo 17/44 with it? Considering you got optimal gear like this ~ chardev.org - A World of Warcraft character planner v.3.a Or am I just whising to come up with something innovative here? |
2: The "optimal gear"-set you post, only consists of the highest lvl items or did you actually consider it? Somehow you managed to sacrifice armor cap, hit cap and expertise cap for 224 haste rating.. And you didnt even go all-in on haste. Imo choices like [Clutch of Demise] - [Warharness of Reckless Fury] - [Blade of Life's Inevitability] are all better for your set, maybe even consider a higher BF uptime and a little haste and throw a Mongoose on Apolyon :P
3: All that being said, oooh it would be so nice to make a haste-based set for 2h spec, and you will LOVE it in WotLK when you get Titan Grip. If your guild pwns and already have a Arms warrior, but no fury, make the full-flurry spec with DST and 200+ haste, keep the Drums of Battle and Haste Potions flowing and post a WWS. Now that would be truely interesting
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Originally Posted by Webb
So whats the basic "rotation"? Keep MS/WW on cd and HS/hamstring your rage away? And do you save rage to make full executes, for spam 2h/spam DW set in execute range?
1: You will need BF at all times, as a 2h warrior. Definately. Flurry uptime and a couple of WW's wont fill the 500+ dps gap up to an equal geared fury. 2: The "optimal gear"-set you post, only consists of the highest lvl items or did you actually consider it? Somehow you managed to sacrifice armor cap, hit cap and expertise cap for 224 haste rating.. And you didnt even go all-in on haste. Imo choices like [Clutch of Demise] - [Warharness of Reckless Fury] - [Blade of Life's Inevitability] are all better for your set, maybe even consider a higher BF uptime and a little haste and throw a Mongoose on Apolyon :P 3: All that being said, oooh it would be so nice to make a haste-based set for 2h spec, and you will LOVE it in WotLK when you get Titan Grip. If your guild pwns and already have a Arms warrior, but no fury, make the full-flurry spec with DST and 200+ haste, keep the Drums of Battle and Haste Potions flowing and post a WWS. Now that would be truely interesting |
2: Nah I didn't look into armor cap, but the wonder of food makes the hit cap precisly. And it was just to much sex to turn down the Sliver for SoC.
3: Yeah, looking at about 2s swingspeed with Apolyon. Just give that now godaim.
Edited onPatch 2.4.2
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Originally Posted by Webb
So whats the basic "rotation"? Keep MS/WW on cd and HS/hamstring your rage away? And do you save rage to make full executes, for spam 2h/spam DW set in execute range?
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Personally for execute range, I popped Death Wish and Recklessness so for the duration of that basically every execute was a full rage execute, and once it dropped I continued just spamming it. I'd like to try swapping to 2 swords, slow MH fast OH and seeing how executing is then, but I don't have a fast OH sword. ><
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Originally Posted by Smörj
This no-slam rotation really got me interested.
But regarding spec for this, what do you think about going 28/33 instead of 33/28 getting an extra 10% from Flurry and 2sec faster cooldown on Whirlwind instead of Improved Discipline (2/3)/Improved Intercept and Blood Frenzy? Would it even be possible to outdo 17/44 with it? Considering you got optimal gear like this ~ chardev.org - A World of Warcraft character planner v.3.a Or am I just whising to come up with something innovative here? |
As to ideal gear, I don't think it is a whole lot different then the ideal gear for an arms warrior using slam rotation. A no slam rotation may make haste more useful, but you still pretty much will be picking the best in slot for each item, which aside from using a DST, doesn't change a whole lot of item choices.
Based on gear setup you posted, I personally would use Leggings of the Immortal Night over Felfury, Golden Bow of Quel'Thalas/Thoridal (lol) over badge xbow, and I'm undecided on Sliver. The sliver is amazing, but 11 Expertise loss is huge.
Last edited by Ramayana : 06/02/08 at 2:10 AM.
Edited onPatch 2.4.2
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Originally Posted by Ramayana
33/28 is pretty set in stone, the main reason to bring an arms warrior is Blood Frenzy, you can't drop it. And as to ideal gear, I don't think it is a whole lot different then the ideal gear for an arms warrior using slam rotation. A no slam rotation may make haste more useful, but you still pretty much will be picking the best in slot for each item, which aside from using a DST, doesn't change a whole lot of item choices.
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Originally Posted by Ramayana
Based on gear setup you posted, I personally would use Leggings of the Immortal Night over Felfury, Golden Bow of Quel'Thalas/Thoridal (lol) over badge xbow, and I'm undecided on Sliver. The sliver is amazing, but 11 Expertise loss is huge.
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Last edited by Smörj : 06/02/08 at 2:40 AM.
Got a question about expertise and yellow damage. I'm an orc using axe on MH and fist of OH. So my experise is +5MH , 0OH. How does this affect yellow damage?
Special attacks are with the main-hand, will be affected if you're matching your weapon racial in that hand.
Well, since you have extra expertise on your MH, all attacks from that hand will have less dodges (1.25%), this means that all your BT's, HS and half of your WW attacks will be dodged 1.25% less. So, your yellow damage from these attacks will go up by roughly 1.25%. In principle I guess about 90% of the yellow damage will come from the MH, so about 1.1% increase in total yellow damage (disregarding added rage generation from white non-dodged attacks).
Or, just input the stuff in one of the spreadsheets and look at it in detail.
Or, just input the stuff in one of the spreadsheets and look at it in detail.
The dps difference from T6 to Sunwell-item on shoulder, is much smaller than it is on the chest slot. And as far as the dps goes; Download Recount (ace addon). Look at your Bloodthirst dmg on Brut encounter. Take away 5% and write it down. Look at your spreadsheet difference from T6 to each of the 3 shoulders you linked.
Without having done this, my bet would be that fury warriors would want the Demontooth if they dont have 1350 ArP, else Berserking. Arms will go T6.
Without having done this, my bet would be that fury warriors would want the Demontooth if they dont have 1350 ArP, else Berserking. Arms will go T6.
Berserking is superior, the 4 piece bonus isn't that much damage... arms or otherwise.
Edited onPatch 2.4.2
1942 dps last Brutallus - 13% of which was due to MS, and 5% af that amounts to 12,623 dps. Berserking wont bring you 12,623 dps by any spreadsheet i have seen..
Last edited by Webb : 06/06/08 at 3:15 PM.
5% of 13% is 0.65%.
4 piece bonus contributed to 0.65% of your total damage. Correct me if i'm wrong...
Best in slot gear from sunwell = 3 piece t6 and it's still more DPS on my spreadsheets (grim13) without 4 piece bonus
4 piece bonus contributed to 0.65% of your total damage. Correct me if i'm wrong...
Best in slot gear from sunwell = 3 piece t6 and it's still more DPS on my spreadsheets (grim13) without 4 piece bonus
Since all the spreadsheets measure in "DPS", wouldnt it be more serving to calculate by the same measure? I dont know what your point is, Mardraum, all i am saying is that T6 setbonus makes more dps than running Pauldrons of Berserking and missing the setbonus (with my data in the sheets).
And yes, 0,65% of 1942 dps = 12,623 dps. How much difference do you see from T6 to Berserking in your spreadsheets? I guess it really also depends on gear lvl and playstyle (a regular slam rotation will let MS be up for several seconds before using the cd, whereas a DST/haste build will let you chain cd's = more MS's)
And yes, 0,65% of 1942 dps = 12,623 dps. How much difference do you see from T6 to Berserking in your spreadsheets? I guess it really also depends on gear lvl and playstyle (a regular slam rotation will let MS be up for several seconds before using the cd, whereas a DST/haste build will let you chain cd's = more MS's)
Felmyst Spec?
Hey guys, quick and simple post here. I picked up a warglaive about a week ago, which opened my door to fury up. We got Felmyst to 10% so we're really working for a dps push so we can get her down on Sunday. I'm here to ask you guys whether or not I should be arms (I have CE, different pants/bow), or fury spec for Felmyst hardcore attempts. You can armory me to check out what I'm currently wearing, and other than that I guess I'll give you a rundown on our raid composition;
We usually have 1-2 rogues, an enhancement shaman, a ret pally, our tank, and a survival hunter.
Our best night so far has been this: http://http://wowwebstats.com/bucg5h2uqqnlw
After the 10% attempt (try 14) I was put in, in place of the other warrior (who was arms), Sagnessagiel.
So if any of you guys could give me some feedback on what spec you think I ought to be, please do. I like to think my arms dps is pretty decent, I usually hit 2000 on Brutallus with one bloodlust. Unfortunately I haven't had much time to test fury out as my guild is still wondering about the transition of fury vs. arms, so all I can say is that it is definately noticeably stronger. Any help is appreciated, thanks.
~Kyrudun
We usually have 1-2 rogues, an enhancement shaman, a ret pally, our tank, and a survival hunter.
Our best night so far has been this: http://http://wowwebstats.com/bucg5h2uqqnlw
After the 10% attempt (try 14) I was put in, in place of the other warrior (who was arms), Sagnessagiel.
So if any of you guys could give me some feedback on what spec you think I ought to be, please do. I like to think my arms dps is pretty decent, I usually hit 2000 on Brutallus with one bloodlust. Unfortunately I haven't had much time to test fury out as my guild is still wondering about the transition of fury vs. arms, so all I can say is that it is definately noticeably stronger. Any help is appreciated, thanks.
~Kyrudun
Your current Fury spec is fine. If you're wondering if you should play Fury or Arms, play whichever you fancy more. From a min/max perspective, you run with a light physical dps crew, so Arms wouldn't give too much of an additional benefit.
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Originally Posted by Graul
22:12'57.015 Graul's Swing crits Coilskar Sea-Caller for 2283 Physical damage
22:12'57.781 Graul's Swing hits Coilskar Sea-Caller for 1129 Physical damage 22:12'58.656 Graul's Mortal Strike hits Coilskar Sea-Caller for 1382 Physical damage 22:12'59.921 Graul's Whirlwind hits Coilskar Sea-Caller for 1154 Physical damage 22:13'00.234 Graul gains Executioner 22:12'31.828 Graul's Swing hits Aqueous Spawn for 971 Physical damage 22:12'32.890 Graul's Hamstring hits Aqueous Spawn for 44 Physical damage 22:12'34.953 Graul gains 1 Attack from Sword Specialization |
The sword spec gain always shows up in the combat log before the hit that triggered it.
So what else happens at 22:12'34.953?
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Originally Posted by Webb
Since all the spreadsheets measure in "DPS", wouldnt it be more serving to calculate by the same measure? I dont know what your point is, Mardraum, all i am saying is that T6 setbonus makes more dps than running Pauldrons of Berserking and missing the setbonus (with my data in the sheets).
And yes, 0,65% of 1942 dps = 12,623 dps. How much difference do you see from T6 to Berserking in your spreadsheets? I guess it really also depends on gear lvl and playstyle (a regular slam rotation will let MS be up for several seconds before using the cd, whereas a DST/haste build will let you chain cd's = more MS's) |
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Originally Posted by Voxx
Now I know this is a pretty petty thing to mention, but for the sake of correctness: 0.65% of 1942 is far from 12,624 "dps." It's 12.624. The way you have that decimal written for some reason keeps trying to tell me 12 thousand and not 12.624.
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Edited onPatch 2.4.2
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Originally Posted by Webb
How much difference do you see from T6 to Berserking in your spreadsheets?
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To me, that justify's [Pauldrons of Berserking] over [Onslaught Shoulderblades].
It's not even that the shoulders are the best of our set from T6, just that all our other options are shitty too. [Shoulderpads of the Stranger] are better than them, unless you're otherwise already at the expertise dodge cap.
Last edited by Grayson Carlyle : 06/08/08 at 5:58 AM.
After some time yesterday my guild worked on Brutallus again and im on duty to play 2 hand/ blood frenzy DPS.
My question is at the Bloodlust + Death wish + Haste pot + possible DST proc + Flurry timer, do i still need to keep slam rotation? Because i feel like at that much haste its so hard to keep my rotation (i sit at 500-600 ms ping usually).
I tried to use Heroic strike instead Slam when the Bloodlust timing and im pretty pleased with the result.
But if i check Grayson's WWS and most other slam warrior they usually do 0 Heroic Strike even they got Bloodlust and using Haste potion
My question is at the Bloodlust + Death wish + Haste pot + possible DST proc + Flurry timer, do i still need to keep slam rotation? Because i feel like at that much haste its so hard to keep my rotation (i sit at 500-600 ms ping usually).
I tried to use Heroic strike instead Slam when the Bloodlust timing and im pretty pleased with the result.
But if i check Grayson's WWS and most other slam warrior they usually do 0 Heroic Strike even they got Bloodlust and using Haste potion
Once your swing timer is 2.5-2.8ish, it's probably time to forgo Slam. With your ping, I would probably forgo at 3.1.
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Originally Posted by milanista11
But if i check Grayson's WWS and most other slam warrior they usually do 0 Heroic Strike even they got Bloodlust and using Haste potion
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I start the fight with a Haste Potion after I get Demo Shout off so that my swing timer is just below 2.5, getting me into a GCD rotation to get it started. After that, I use Death Wish on top of Bloodlusts (I usually get 2) and then pop a Haste potion right after Bloodlust wears off, so that I keep a sub 2.5 swing for a full minute. Stacking Haste and Bloodlust would either mean dropping the rotation in favour of heroics, or executes. I don't like the idea of stacking both for a bit to lose my rotation, so that's why I chain them. It might not be the best option under ideal circumstances, but it's what I do. If I got Bloodlust in Execute range, then I would totally pop Haste and go to town, but that's why you will rarely see any Heroic Strikes in my logs.
Wow Web Stats
2 nights of attempt finally down bruttalus.
I dont have enchant shaman in my group not also bloodlust.
My group consist of 2 BM hunters, 1 feral druid (the main tank) and 1 shaman (dropping GoA and Str).
I found it very usefull in term to keep my Blood Frenzy debuff all time, with around 42% crit chance i feel like never see my deep wound wear off.
2 nights of attempt finally down bruttalus.
I dont have enchant shaman in my group not also bloodlust.
My group consist of 2 BM hunters, 1 feral druid (the main tank) and 1 shaman (dropping GoA and Str).
I found it very usefull in term to keep my Blood Frenzy debuff all time, with around 42% crit chance i feel like never see my deep wound wear off.
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Originally Posted by Magna
Some countries use commas instead of decimals in their number system.
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Originally Posted by Voxx
I'm aware of that, but no country uses decimals instead of commas to represent numbers in the thousands.
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This no-slam rotation really got me interested.
But regarding spec for this, what do you think about going 28/33 instead of 33/28 getting an extra 10% from Flurry and 2sec faster cooldown on Whirlwind instead of Improved Discipline (2/3)/Improved Intercept and Blood Frenzy?
Would it even be possible to outdo 17/44 with it? Considering you got optimal gear like this ~ chardev.org - A World of Warcraft character planner v.3.a
Or am I just whising to come up with something innovative here?
But regarding spec for this, what do you think about going 28/33 instead of 33/28 getting an extra 10% from Flurry and 2sec faster cooldown on Whirlwind instead of Improved Discipline (2/3)/Improved Intercept and Blood Frenzy?
Would it even be possible to outdo 17/44 with it? Considering you got optimal gear like this ~ chardev.org - A World of Warcraft character planner v.3.a
Or am I just whising to come up with something innovative here?
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Originally Posted by Ramayana
Here's a WWS of the Teron tonite (bad M'uru group, QQ) using the no-slam rotation for the first time.
Wow Web Stats Was grouped with 2 rogues, another DPS war, and an enhancement shammy I beleive, with no elixirs/pots and whatnot, overall I liked it, but it will take a little getting used too, as it's a lot different then slam rotation. I'd like to give it a try on Brutallus next week in Sunwell to get a better read on DPS, but looks promising so far. I didn't get a sub-20% heroism which kind of sucked, but with DST and flurry being up made it ok. If I had to decide right now I'd say DST is an absolute must, the haste proc makes the rotation great. The rotation is most definitly promising though, looking forward to trying it out some more on different fights. As of me posting this armory spec and gear isn't updated btw, only gear swap was DST for Beserkers, and spec is 33/28 but with 2 pts in Imp Execute instead of Imp Slam. P.S. ROS kind of sucked with it, I spent almost all of phase 2 threat capped. >< Definitely one of the downsides of the rotation. |
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Originally Posted by Smörj
This no-slam rotation really got me interested.
But regarding spec for this, what do you think about going 28/33 instead of 33/28 getting an extra 10% from Flurry and 2sec faster cooldown on Whirlwind instead of Improved Discipline (2/3)/Improved Intercept and Blood Frenzy? Would it even be possible to outdo 17/44 with it? Considering you got optimal gear like this ~ chardev.org - A World of Warcraft character planner v.3.a Or am I just whising to come up with something innovative here? |
2: The "optimal gear"-set you post, only consists of the highest lvl items or did you actually consider it? Somehow you managed to sacrifice armor cap, hit cap and expertise cap for 224 haste rating.. And you didnt even go all-in on haste. Imo choices like [Clutch of Demise] - [Warharness of Reckless Fury] - [Blade of Life's Inevitability] are all better for your set, maybe even consider a higher BF uptime and a little haste and throw a Mongoose on Apolyon :P
3: All that being said, oooh it would be so nice to make a haste-based set for 2h spec, and you will LOVE it in WotLK when you get Titan Grip. If your guild pwns and already have a Arms warrior, but no fury, make the full-flurry spec with DST and 200+ haste, keep the Drums of Battle and Haste Potions flowing and post a WWS. Now that would be truely interesting
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Originally Posted by Webb
So whats the basic "rotation"? Keep MS/WW on cd and HS/hamstring your rage away? And do you save rage to make full executes, for spam 2h/spam DW set in execute range?
1: You will need BF at all times, as a 2h warrior. Definately. Flurry uptime and a couple of WW's wont fill the 500+ dps gap up to an equal geared fury. 2: The "optimal gear"-set you post, only consists of the highest lvl items or did you actually consider it? Somehow you managed to sacrifice armor cap, hit cap and expertise cap for 224 haste rating.. And you didnt even go all-in on haste. Imo choices like [Clutch of Demise] - [Warharness of Reckless Fury] - [Blade of Life's Inevitability] are all better for your set, maybe even consider a higher BF uptime and a little haste and throw a Mongoose on Apolyon :P 3: All that being said, oooh it would be so nice to make a haste-based set for 2h spec, and you will LOVE it in WotLK when you get Titan Grip. If your guild pwns and already have a Arms warrior, but no fury, make the full-flurry spec with DST and 200+ haste, keep the Drums of Battle and Haste Potions flowing and post a WWS. Now that would be truely interesting |
2: Nah I didn't look into armor cap, but the wonder of food makes the hit cap precisly. And it was just to much sex to turn down the Sliver for SoC.
3: Yeah, looking at about 2s swingspeed with Apolyon. Just give that now godaim.
Edited onPatch 2.4.2
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Originally Posted by Webb
So whats the basic "rotation"? Keep MS/WW on cd and HS/hamstring your rage away? And do you save rage to make full executes, for spam 2h/spam DW set in execute range?
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Personally for execute range, I popped Death Wish and Recklessness so for the duration of that basically every execute was a full rage execute, and once it dropped I continued just spamming it. I'd like to try swapping to 2 swords, slow MH fast OH and seeing how executing is then, but I don't have a fast OH sword. ><
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Originally Posted by Smörj
This no-slam rotation really got me interested.
But regarding spec for this, what do you think about going 28/33 instead of 33/28 getting an extra 10% from Flurry and 2sec faster cooldown on Whirlwind instead of Improved Discipline (2/3)/Improved Intercept and Blood Frenzy? Would it even be possible to outdo 17/44 with it? Considering you got optimal gear like this ~ chardev.org - A World of Warcraft character planner v.3.a Or am I just whising to come up with something innovative here? |
As to ideal gear, I don't think it is a whole lot different then the ideal gear for an arms warrior using slam rotation. A no slam rotation may make haste more useful, but you still pretty much will be picking the best in slot for each item, which aside from using a DST, doesn't change a whole lot of item choices.
Based on gear setup you posted, I personally would use Leggings of the Immortal Night over Felfury, Golden Bow of Quel'Thalas/Thoridal (lol) over badge xbow, and I'm undecided on Sliver. The sliver is amazing, but 11 Expertise loss is huge.
Last edited by Ramayana : 06/02/08 at 2:10 AM.
Edited onPatch 2.4.2
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Originally Posted by Ramayana
33/28 is pretty set in stone, the main reason to bring an arms warrior is Blood Frenzy, you can't drop it. And as to ideal gear, I don't think it is a whole lot different then the ideal gear for an arms warrior using slam rotation. A no slam rotation may make haste more useful, but you still pretty much will be picking the best in slot for each item, which aside from using a DST, doesn't change a whole lot of item choices.
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Originally Posted by Ramayana
Based on gear setup you posted, I personally would use Leggings of the Immortal Night over Felfury, Golden Bow of Quel'Thalas/Thoridal (lol) over badge xbow, and I'm undecided on Sliver. The sliver is amazing, but 11 Expertise loss is huge.
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Last edited by Smörj : 06/02/08 at 2:40 AM.
Got a question about expertise and yellow damage. I'm an orc using axe on MH and fist of OH. So my experise is +5MH , 0OH. How does this affect yellow damage?
Special attacks are with the main-hand, will be affected if you're matching your weapon racial in that hand.
Well, since you have extra expertise on your MH, all attacks from that hand will have less dodges (1.25%), this means that all your BT's, HS and half of your WW attacks will be dodged 1.25% less. So, your yellow damage from these attacks will go up by roughly 1.25%. In principle I guess about 90% of the yellow damage will come from the MH, so about 1.1% increase in total yellow damage (disregarding added rage generation from white non-dodged attacks).
Or, just input the stuff in one of the spreadsheets and look at it in detail.
Or, just input the stuff in one of the spreadsheets and look at it in detail.
The dps difference from T6 to Sunwell-item on shoulder, is much smaller than it is on the chest slot. And as far as the dps goes; Download Recount (ace addon). Look at your Bloodthirst dmg on Brut encounter. Take away 5% and write it down. Look at your spreadsheet difference from T6 to each of the 3 shoulders you linked.
Without having done this, my bet would be that fury warriors would want the Demontooth if they dont have 1350 ArP, else Berserking. Arms will go T6.
Without having done this, my bet would be that fury warriors would want the Demontooth if they dont have 1350 ArP, else Berserking. Arms will go T6.
Berserking is superior, the 4 piece bonus isn't that much damage... arms or otherwise.
Edited onPatch 2.4.2
1942 dps last Brutallus - 13% of which was due to MS, and 5% af that amounts to 12,623 dps. Berserking wont bring you 12,623 dps by any spreadsheet i have seen..
Last edited by Webb : 06/06/08 at 3:15 PM.
5% of 13% is 0.65%.
4 piece bonus contributed to 0.65% of your total damage. Correct me if i'm wrong...
Best in slot gear from sunwell = 3 piece t6 and it's still more DPS on my spreadsheets (grim13) without 4 piece bonus
4 piece bonus contributed to 0.65% of your total damage. Correct me if i'm wrong...
Best in slot gear from sunwell = 3 piece t6 and it's still more DPS on my spreadsheets (grim13) without 4 piece bonus
Since all the spreadsheets measure in "DPS", wouldnt it be more serving to calculate by the same measure? I dont know what your point is, Mardraum, all i am saying is that T6 setbonus makes more dps than running Pauldrons of Berserking and missing the setbonus (with my data in the sheets).
And yes, 0,65% of 1942 dps = 12,623 dps. How much difference do you see from T6 to Berserking in your spreadsheets? I guess it really also depends on gear lvl and playstyle (a regular slam rotation will let MS be up for several seconds before using the cd, whereas a DST/haste build will let you chain cd's = more MS's)
And yes, 0,65% of 1942 dps = 12,623 dps. How much difference do you see from T6 to Berserking in your spreadsheets? I guess it really also depends on gear lvl and playstyle (a regular slam rotation will let MS be up for several seconds before using the cd, whereas a DST/haste build will let you chain cd's = more MS's)
Felmyst Spec?
Hey guys, quick and simple post here. I picked up a warglaive about a week ago, which opened my door to fury up. We got Felmyst to 10% so we're really working for a dps push so we can get her down on Sunday. I'm here to ask you guys whether or not I should be arms (I have CE, different pants/bow), or fury spec for Felmyst hardcore attempts. You can armory me to check out what I'm currently wearing, and other than that I guess I'll give you a rundown on our raid composition;
We usually have 1-2 rogues, an enhancement shaman, a ret pally, our tank, and a survival hunter.
Our best night so far has been this: http://http://wowwebstats.com/bucg5h2uqqnlw
After the 10% attempt (try 14) I was put in, in place of the other warrior (who was arms), Sagnessagiel.
So if any of you guys could give me some feedback on what spec you think I ought to be, please do. I like to think my arms dps is pretty decent, I usually hit 2000 on Brutallus with one bloodlust. Unfortunately I haven't had much time to test fury out as my guild is still wondering about the transition of fury vs. arms, so all I can say is that it is definately noticeably stronger. Any help is appreciated, thanks.
~Kyrudun
We usually have 1-2 rogues, an enhancement shaman, a ret pally, our tank, and a survival hunter.
Our best night so far has been this: http://http://wowwebstats.com/bucg5h2uqqnlw
After the 10% attempt (try 14) I was put in, in place of the other warrior (who was arms), Sagnessagiel.
So if any of you guys could give me some feedback on what spec you think I ought to be, please do. I like to think my arms dps is pretty decent, I usually hit 2000 on Brutallus with one bloodlust. Unfortunately I haven't had much time to test fury out as my guild is still wondering about the transition of fury vs. arms, so all I can say is that it is definately noticeably stronger. Any help is appreciated, thanks.
~Kyrudun
Your current Fury spec is fine. If you're wondering if you should play Fury or Arms, play whichever you fancy more. From a min/max perspective, you run with a light physical dps crew, so Arms wouldn't give too much of an additional benefit.
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Originally Posted by Graul
22:12'57.015 Graul's Swing crits Coilskar Sea-Caller for 2283 Physical damage
22:12'57.781 Graul's Swing hits Coilskar Sea-Caller for 1129 Physical damage 22:12'58.656 Graul's Mortal Strike hits Coilskar Sea-Caller for 1382 Physical damage 22:12'59.921 Graul's Whirlwind hits Coilskar Sea-Caller for 1154 Physical damage 22:13'00.234 Graul gains Executioner 22:12'31.828 Graul's Swing hits Aqueous Spawn for 971 Physical damage 22:12'32.890 Graul's Hamstring hits Aqueous Spawn for 44 Physical damage 22:12'34.953 Graul gains 1 Attack from Sword Specialization |
The sword spec gain always shows up in the combat log before the hit that triggered it.
So what else happens at 22:12'34.953?
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Originally Posted by Webb
Since all the spreadsheets measure in "DPS", wouldnt it be more serving to calculate by the same measure? I dont know what your point is, Mardraum, all i am saying is that T6 setbonus makes more dps than running Pauldrons of Berserking and missing the setbonus (with my data in the sheets).
And yes, 0,65% of 1942 dps = 12,623 dps. How much difference do you see from T6 to Berserking in your spreadsheets? I guess it really also depends on gear lvl and playstyle (a regular slam rotation will let MS be up for several seconds before using the cd, whereas a DST/haste build will let you chain cd's = more MS's) |
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Originally Posted by Voxx
Now I know this is a pretty petty thing to mention, but for the sake of correctness: 0.65% of 1942 is far from 12,624 "dps." It's 12.624. The way you have that decimal written for some reason keeps trying to tell me 12 thousand and not 12.624.
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Edited onPatch 2.4.2
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Originally Posted by Webb
How much difference do you see from T6 to Berserking in your spreadsheets?
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To me, that justify's [Pauldrons of Berserking] over [Onslaught Shoulderblades].
It's not even that the shoulders are the best of our set from T6, just that all our other options are shitty too. [Shoulderpads of the Stranger] are better than them, unless you're otherwise already at the expertise dodge cap.
Last edited by Grayson Carlyle : 06/08/08 at 5:58 AM.
After some time yesterday my guild worked on Brutallus again and im on duty to play 2 hand/ blood frenzy DPS.
My question is at the Bloodlust + Death wish + Haste pot + possible DST proc + Flurry timer, do i still need to keep slam rotation? Because i feel like at that much haste its so hard to keep my rotation (i sit at 500-600 ms ping usually).
I tried to use Heroic strike instead Slam when the Bloodlust timing and im pretty pleased with the result.
But if i check Grayson's WWS and most other slam warrior they usually do 0 Heroic Strike even they got Bloodlust and using Haste potion
My question is at the Bloodlust + Death wish + Haste pot + possible DST proc + Flurry timer, do i still need to keep slam rotation? Because i feel like at that much haste its so hard to keep my rotation (i sit at 500-600 ms ping usually).
I tried to use Heroic strike instead Slam when the Bloodlust timing and im pretty pleased with the result.
But if i check Grayson's WWS and most other slam warrior they usually do 0 Heroic Strike even they got Bloodlust and using Haste potion
Once your swing timer is 2.5-2.8ish, it's probably time to forgo Slam. With your ping, I would probably forgo at 3.1.
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Originally Posted by milanista11
But if i check Grayson's WWS and most other slam warrior they usually do 0 Heroic Strike even they got Bloodlust and using Haste potion
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I start the fight with a Haste Potion after I get Demo Shout off so that my swing timer is just below 2.5, getting me into a GCD rotation to get it started. After that, I use Death Wish on top of Bloodlusts (I usually get 2) and then pop a Haste potion right after Bloodlust wears off, so that I keep a sub 2.5 swing for a full minute. Stacking Haste and Bloodlust would either mean dropping the rotation in favour of heroics, or executes. I don't like the idea of stacking both for a bit to lose my rotation, so that's why I chain them. It might not be the best option under ideal circumstances, but it's what I do. If I got Bloodlust in Execute range, then I would totally pop Haste and go to town, but that's why you will rarely see any Heroic Strikes in my logs.
Wow Web Stats
2 nights of attempt finally down bruttalus.
I dont have enchant shaman in my group not also bloodlust.
My group consist of 2 BM hunters, 1 feral druid (the main tank) and 1 shaman (dropping GoA and Str).
I found it very usefull in term to keep my Blood Frenzy debuff all time, with around 42% crit chance i feel like never see my deep wound wear off.
2 nights of attempt finally down bruttalus.
I dont have enchant shaman in my group not also bloodlust.
My group consist of 2 BM hunters, 1 feral druid (the main tank) and 1 shaman (dropping GoA and Str).
I found it very usefull in term to keep my Blood Frenzy debuff all time, with around 42% crit chance i feel like never see my deep wound wear off.
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Originally Posted by Magna
Some countries use commas instead of decimals in their number system.
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Originally Posted by Voxx
I'm aware of that, but no country uses decimals instead of commas to represent numbers in the thousands.
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Originally Posted by Voxx
I'm aware of that, but no country uses decimals instead of commas to represent numbers in the thousands.
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How much affect would a really bad frame rate have on fury warrior Dps? I have some very good gear and i often am only able to do 1700-1800 on brut where other warriors with similar gearing are doing 2k. My FPS in boss fights is only 5fps and at idle in raids is about 15-20. My normal world stuff/arena is 30+ and i never took any notice of it in raids. Has anyone gone from a similar situation to having a good computer able to sustain over 20-30fps on a boss fight? If so was there much of a increase in ur ability to dps, like faster use of CD ect?
I have been reading and do ing fury warrior dps for along time, i have all the rotations down, and i am now always in the right position so i have no idea why my dps would be so low even with no retadin/feral usually i often end up getting double bloodlusts.
I have been reading and do ing fury warrior dps for along time, i have all the rotations down, and i am now always in the right position so i have no idea why my dps would be so low even with no retadin/feral usually i often end up getting double bloodlusts.
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Originally Posted by Bluefang
How much affect would a really bad frame rate have on fury warrior Dps? I have some very good gear and i often am only able to do 1700-1800 on brut where other warriors with similar gearing are doing 2k. My FPS in boss fights is only 5fps and at idle in raids is about 15-20. My normal world stuff/arena is 30+ and i never took any notice of it in raids. Has anyone gone from a similar situation to having a good computer able to sustain over 20-30fps on a boss fight? If so was there much of a increase in ur ability to dps, like faster use of CD ect?
I have been reading and do ing fury warrior dps for along time, i have all the rotations down, and i am now always in the right position so i have no idea why my dps would be so low even with no retadin/feral usually i often end up getting double bloodlusts. |
You can't raid very well with 5fps either way. You'll be (too) slow on boss events. My shaman has/had 5fps and sometimes misses/missed a conflag.
The faster your cpu is, the more fps you get. Gpu isn't important. 1gb, 2,5ghz+ Core2Duo is where the sweet spot is. Nice smooth boss fights for little money.
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Originally Posted by Spuddelkopf
I think quite some european countries do. We do it in Germany, too.
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Originally Posted by Graul
Glad to see you tried it out and it was working for you. I still have not yet been able to try Brutallus like this yet, and last night was only the second raid night on farm content where I was able to mess around with this, but I was getting similar results to the previous WWS I posted, so at least I know it wasn't just some random fluke. And yeah, 2h Executes are better I believe, especially since you can break the GCD, and even after the haste effects start to scatter and your weapon might slow down a little bit more, it's still worth it simply because of not missing. You also miss a GCD when you switch weapons, or close enough to it anyway.
The limiting factor to this though is that I think you really need a DST and at the very least a sword. Every person that I had ever read about doing this had both. |
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Originally Posted by Amyannirving
Question on the last comment about requirements for this rotation to work. If I have a DST, would I be able to do this using a Shivering Felspine, or would I be better off using a Jin'Rokh (my best sword available right now)? Felspine is obviously a better weapon, but just wondering if you think sword spec is really that necessary for the no-slam rotation if I already have a DST. Thanks.
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Originally Posted by Apate
I tried it out with Soul Cleaver vs. Twinblade and concluded that sword spec is more or less required. Rage generation was too uneven. At least the long swing timer makes it easy to slam.
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Originally Posted by Amyannirving
i was kind of referring to the no-slam rotation though.
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I currently have a question that the search function can not completely answer. Opinions are rather shared.
My 'problem' is that I don't know if i should craft a second Dragonstrike. I'm currently using the 2.5 speed badges offhand.
The main con is probably the fact that it isn't that much of a boost due to the haste buff not stacking.
The pro is most likely that there will be times that you can "double" the haste uptime.
Any opinions that fit my current gear?
My 'problem' is that I don't know if i should craft a second Dragonstrike. I'm currently using the 2.5 speed badges offhand.
The main con is probably the fact that it isn't that much of a boost due to the haste buff not stacking.
The pro is most likely that there will be times that you can "double" the haste uptime.
Any opinions that fit my current gear?
You would never "double" the uptime. Since they only refresh, you'd only slightly extend the single version uptime. Perhaps 20-30%?
The hopes of dualweilding those were dashed as soon as the buffs stopped stacking. Stick with the badge off-hand.
The hopes of dualweilding those were dashed as soon as the buffs stopped stacking. Stick with the badge off-hand.
Oh come on, Vanir's offhand is way better than a second DS. It was better even when the haste buffs were stacking. I don't get why people think DS can in any way compete with T6 weapons. Haste is good, don't get me wrong, but the dps and nonexisting other stats on DS makes it subpar to all of the MH/BT/s3/new badge weapons (with the obvious exception of daggers). If you don't believe me just input it in the spreadsheets to see for yourself.
Edited onPatch 2.4.2
Been pondering to try and weave .5 second slams after my white hits while dual wielding 2.6 speed weapons. I'd take 2 points out of precision. I guess my DPS would go up a little if I was able to time it correctly without overlapping key skill times. Here's the GCD breakdown. What I mean by 'possible slam period' is when you wait for your main hand attack to land, you may use your slam after it hits during these possible periods.
0 bt
1.5 ww
3 rampage
4.5 free GCD
6 bt
7.5-10 possible slam period
10.5 ww
12 bt
13.5-16.5 possible slam period
18 bt
19.5 ww
21-22.5 possible slam period
24 bt
etc etc
It appears to be 3 slams per 4 BT. Slam would crit for a little more than a heroic strike. Very high geared players will have the rage for this most of the time. Correct me if I am way out there.
edit correctness
0 bt
1.5 ww
3 rampage
4.5 free GCD
6 bt
7.5-10 possible slam period
10.5 ww
12 bt
13.5-16.5 possible slam period
18 bt
19.5 ww
21-22.5 possible slam period
24 bt
etc etc
It appears to be 3 slams per 4 BT. Slam would crit for a little more than a heroic strike. Very high geared players will have the rage for this most of the time. Correct me if I am way out there.
edit correctness
Last edited by landsoul : 06/19/08 at 11:40 AM.
Well, even though you lose the hit with Sunwell gear and the 2 points out of precision, you're not losing rage from using Heroic Strike. I wonder if it'd be more threat efficient though even if it ends up being less DPS or too difficult to maintain.
Edited onPatch 2.4.2
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Originally Posted by Waagaa
This log proves nothing.
The sword spec gain always shows up in the combat log before the hit that triggered it. So what else happens at 22:12'34.953? |
Last edited by Graul : 06/20/08 at 2:45 AM.
A possible salution for high end rage use
at this point of gear lvl the only thing stopping me from doing more dmg is threat so I have simply moved the point from improved Ww to improved slam. Now I understand the benefit of slam with a two hander over a one hander but I would ask you all to look past that for a moment and just compare slam to Heroic strike.
Now useing a wicked slow 2.5 or more main hand is gonna net slam a decent chunk of damage all its own but with all the armor penatration available now those hits are hitting alot harder I am currently seeing crits from 2-3k and with a 1 sec cast time its really easy to cycle it into my BT Ww cd's.
Slams other benefit comes from the fact that not only does it not cause added threat but at 1 sec unless your a haste built fury warrior is always going to be faster then HS but unlike cleave will not break a CC target. That simple fact alone has made me very pleased with the talent change.
Aslo when takeing a consistant aamount of splash dmg I find I am able to pop to battle stand and use a BT / Slam rotation do prevent not only prevent myself from recieving the 10% added dmg penalty of zerker stance but to toss up some thunder clap for the druid or pally tank I am working with.
Now I am not going to sit here and try to tell you this build is going to cuase a major spike in your dmg as for me it was a very small increase but I will promise that you will maintain = dmg at a far more comfortable threat lvl.
What I really need is some big math experts to break down the numbers to help me get the rotation maximized also I wonder if with an ability to utilize so much more rage is there now any added benefit to a fast off hand (got a nice one just for execute range anyway).
Now useing a wicked slow 2.5 or more main hand is gonna net slam a decent chunk of damage all its own but with all the armor penatration available now those hits are hitting alot harder I am currently seeing crits from 2-3k and with a 1 sec cast time its really easy to cycle it into my BT Ww cd's.
Slams other benefit comes from the fact that not only does it not cause added threat but at 1 sec unless your a haste built fury warrior is always going to be faster then HS but unlike cleave will not break a CC target. That simple fact alone has made me very pleased with the talent change.
Aslo when takeing a consistant aamount of splash dmg I find I am able to pop to battle stand and use a BT / Slam rotation do prevent not only prevent myself from recieving the 10% added dmg penalty of zerker stance but to toss up some thunder clap for the druid or pally tank I am working with.
Now I am not going to sit here and try to tell you this build is going to cuase a major spike in your dmg as for me it was a very small increase but I will promise that you will maintain = dmg at a far more comfortable threat lvl.
What I really need is some big math experts to break down the numbers to help me get the rotation maximized also I wonder if with an ability to utilize so much more rage is there now any added benefit to a fast off hand (got a nice one just for execute range anyway).
Slamming DW is really bad because it doesn't just reset the hand that's Slamming, but both hands, and it also may prevent the off hand from taking any action while you're Slamming, even if you're about to land an attack (anyone feel free to correct this if it's wrong). Not advisable at all until maybe the expansion and then again only if the mechanic is changed. You really don't need a math expert to show you why it's bad right now.
But in theory it isnt bad if you have matching speed weapons and you can time the slams in between your BT and WW coodowns so that you always hit slam after the double melee swing and 2 seconds before your next BT or WW.
I think with threat capping herioc strike it might be worth it to try. It will take a lot of learning and experimentation. I'm going to try it in kara or ZA or something this weekend.
I think with threat capping herioc strike it might be worth it to try. It will take a lot of learning and experimentation. I'm going to try it in kara or ZA or something this weekend.
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Originally Posted by landsoul
But in theory it isnt bad if you have matching speed weapons and you can time the slams in between your BT and WW coodowns so that you always hit slam after the double melee swing and 2 seconds before your next BT or WW.
I think with threat capping herioc strike it might be worth it to try. It will take a lot of learning and experimentation. I'm going to try it in kara or ZA or something this weekend. |
If you're working off the standard Fury DPS rotation you have three brief windows of opportunity for that to work. Two 1 second windows before the second WW, and one 2.5 second window before the cycle repeats. The chance of things lining up well for the first two windows isn't great (roughly 40% of the time it'll land in one, but more ideal timings will be roughly 20%), so most of it will come from the third window of opportunity.
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Originally Posted by Eusomee
It's been a while since I've dug through every thread, but I do believe that matched speed weapons don't always keep the same swing time. If for some reason you swing from the front and get parried, that hand will be thrown off. But a far more normal problem would be the gain/loss of the Flurry aura. The last thread I remember reading about how evenly it worked when applied mid swing made it sound as if it was not only capable of, but rather prone to desynching your weapon swings.
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Edited onPatch 2.4.2
Only time I have experienced desyncing is if I parry, or a windfury proc happens on not the last attack from the aura and it does not crit. Windfury procs as far as I know consume flurry. Other than that there is no possibly way for matched weapons to desync.
Even if it did desync, the slam would resync it.
I made a cast sequence macro for it. It only seems to be working for Heroic Strike -> Slam right now.
/script UIErrorsFrame:Hide()
/castsequence reset=.1 Heroic Strike, Slam
/script UIErrorsFrame:Clear(); UIErrorsFrame:Show()
I'm trying to get it to work with just regular attacking instead of chaining it off a heroic strike.
Even if it did desync, the slam would resync it.
I made a cast sequence macro for it. It only seems to be working for Heroic Strike -> Slam right now.
/script UIErrorsFrame:Hide()
/castsequence reset=.1 Heroic Strike, Slam
/script UIErrorsFrame:Clear(); UIErrorsFrame:Show()
I'm trying to get it to work with just regular attacking instead of chaining it off a heroic strike.
Last edited by landsoul : 06/23/08 at 3:42 AM.
Same speed weapons do not desync. I tested it a long while ago.
I made a suggestion like this a while ago which was shut down rather abruptly. The concept works well but in practice it's nearly impossible to manage. The dps increase would be so small that it's almost not worth it in my opinion. For one, you'll run into the problem of slam occasionally clipping windfury procs like with a 2h spec. Another downfall is limiting the mobility of the dual wield spec, and ofc the fact that that just adds one more thing for you to watch while dps'ing.
Demo shout, Thunderclap if you have to, Rampage, BT/WW cooldowns, rage management, any aoe damage in the fight that you have to avoid, Trinket/Pot cooldowns and then add on top of all that watching your swing timer and adding another factor into your rage generation. I don't think I'd be able to handle it without developing some severe tunnel vision.
Again, in theory it should work and net you a small dps increase, but in practice and with human error I don't know how viable it is.
Demo shout, Thunderclap if you have to, Rampage, BT/WW cooldowns, rage management, any aoe damage in the fight that you have to avoid, Trinket/Pot cooldowns and then add on top of all that watching your swing timer and adding another factor into your rage generation. I don't think I'd be able to handle it without developing some severe tunnel vision.
Again, in theory it should work and net you a small dps increase, but in practice and with human error I don't know how viable it is.
What Voxx is saying is completely correct. I managed to practice on servants for quite a long time to perfect the rotations, slam would occur instantly and only after a heroic strike was casted using tweaked macros. The DPS between slamming and not using slam was completely the same. The only significant difference is that the slam rotation yields a lot less threat. The management part of it wasn't so bad after I got the hang of it.
Basically I made a macro that would keep my BT and WW on cooldown and I had timer watchers and if both were on high cooldown, I would start spamming the Slam macro.
The slam macro was a cast sequence macro with a .1 second reset. This means that if I didn't spam the macro fast enough to clear the reset, it would not cast the slam after the heroic strike, but would queue another heroic strike. This ensures that you don't wait too long and cannibalize your swing time with a bad slam cast. Swing timers were all useless because they couldn't track with dual wield unless you initiated combat with only one weapon and then switched to dual wield.
In conclusion, while not a significant DPS increase to warrant its annoyance to manage the rotations and the rage management required, it could possibly produce less threat. Having it be "another thing to watch" might cause some players to become distracted from more important things. With the use of the macro I made it also would definitely clip the windfury since it is 100ms fast. I play with around 50ms so it might not happen to me, but I don't want to find out that it does either.
I might try it out again during non-progression and provide more feedback.
Basically I made a macro that would keep my BT and WW on cooldown and I had timer watchers and if both were on high cooldown, I would start spamming the Slam macro.
The slam macro was a cast sequence macro with a .1 second reset. This means that if I didn't spam the macro fast enough to clear the reset, it would not cast the slam after the heroic strike, but would queue another heroic strike. This ensures that you don't wait too long and cannibalize your swing time with a bad slam cast. Swing timers were all useless because they couldn't track with dual wield unless you initiated combat with only one weapon and then switched to dual wield.
In conclusion, while not a significant DPS increase to warrant its annoyance to manage the rotations and the rage management required, it could possibly produce less threat. Having it be "another thing to watch" might cause some players to become distracted from more important things. With the use of the macro I made it also would definitely clip the windfury since it is 100ms fast. I play with around 50ms so it might not happen to me, but I don't want to find out that it does either.
I might try it out again during non-progression and provide more feedback.
You made a Slam-casting macro with build in delay, Landsoul?
Anyone using macroes for regular 2h slam builds?
Anyone using macroes for regular 2h slam builds?
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Originally Posted by Voxx
I'm aware of that, but no country uses decimals instead of commas to represent numbers in the thousands.
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How much affect would a really bad frame rate have on fury warrior Dps? I have some very good gear and i often am only able to do 1700-1800 on brut where other warriors with similar gearing are doing 2k. My FPS in boss fights is only 5fps and at idle in raids is about 15-20. My normal world stuff/arena is 30+ and i never took any notice of it in raids. Has anyone gone from a similar situation to having a good computer able to sustain over 20-30fps on a boss fight? If so was there much of a increase in ur ability to dps, like faster use of CD ect?
I have been reading and do ing fury warrior dps for along time, i have all the rotations down, and i am now always in the right position so i have no idea why my dps would be so low even with no retadin/feral usually i often end up getting double bloodlusts.
I have been reading and do ing fury warrior dps for along time, i have all the rotations down, and i am now always in the right position so i have no idea why my dps would be so low even with no retadin/feral usually i often end up getting double bloodlusts.
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Originally Posted by Bluefang
How much affect would a really bad frame rate have on fury warrior Dps? I have some very good gear and i often am only able to do 1700-1800 on brut where other warriors with similar gearing are doing 2k. My FPS in boss fights is only 5fps and at idle in raids is about 15-20. My normal world stuff/arena is 30+ and i never took any notice of it in raids. Has anyone gone from a similar situation to having a good computer able to sustain over 20-30fps on a boss fight? If so was there much of a increase in ur ability to dps, like faster use of CD ect?
I have been reading and do ing fury warrior dps for along time, i have all the rotations down, and i am now always in the right position so i have no idea why my dps would be so low even with no retadin/feral usually i often end up getting double bloodlusts. |
You can't raid very well with 5fps either way. You'll be (too) slow on boss events. My shaman has/had 5fps and sometimes misses/missed a conflag.
The faster your cpu is, the more fps you get. Gpu isn't important. 1gb, 2,5ghz+ Core2Duo is where the sweet spot is. Nice smooth boss fights for little money.
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Originally Posted by Spuddelkopf
I think quite some european countries do. We do it in Germany, too.
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Originally Posted by Graul
Glad to see you tried it out and it was working for you. I still have not yet been able to try Brutallus like this yet, and last night was only the second raid night on farm content where I was able to mess around with this, but I was getting similar results to the previous WWS I posted, so at least I know it wasn't just some random fluke. And yeah, 2h Executes are better I believe, especially since you can break the GCD, and even after the haste effects start to scatter and your weapon might slow down a little bit more, it's still worth it simply because of not missing. You also miss a GCD when you switch weapons, or close enough to it anyway.
The limiting factor to this though is that I think you really need a DST and at the very least a sword. Every person that I had ever read about doing this had both. |
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Originally Posted by Amyannirving
Question on the last comment about requirements for this rotation to work. If I have a DST, would I be able to do this using a Shivering Felspine, or would I be better off using a Jin'Rokh (my best sword available right now)? Felspine is obviously a better weapon, but just wondering if you think sword spec is really that necessary for the no-slam rotation if I already have a DST. Thanks.
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Originally Posted by Apate
I tried it out with Soul Cleaver vs. Twinblade and concluded that sword spec is more or less required. Rage generation was too uneven. At least the long swing timer makes it easy to slam.
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Originally Posted by Amyannirving
i was kind of referring to the no-slam rotation though.
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I currently have a question that the search function can not completely answer. Opinions are rather shared.
My 'problem' is that I don't know if i should craft a second Dragonstrike. I'm currently using the 2.5 speed badges offhand.
The main con is probably the fact that it isn't that much of a boost due to the haste buff not stacking.
The pro is most likely that there will be times that you can "double" the haste uptime.
Any opinions that fit my current gear?
My 'problem' is that I don't know if i should craft a second Dragonstrike. I'm currently using the 2.5 speed badges offhand.
The main con is probably the fact that it isn't that much of a boost due to the haste buff not stacking.
The pro is most likely that there will be times that you can "double" the haste uptime.
Any opinions that fit my current gear?
You would never "double" the uptime. Since they only refresh, you'd only slightly extend the single version uptime. Perhaps 20-30%?
The hopes of dualweilding those were dashed as soon as the buffs stopped stacking. Stick with the badge off-hand.
The hopes of dualweilding those were dashed as soon as the buffs stopped stacking. Stick with the badge off-hand.
Oh come on, Vanir's offhand is way better than a second DS. It was better even when the haste buffs were stacking. I don't get why people think DS can in any way compete with T6 weapons. Haste is good, don't get me wrong, but the dps and nonexisting other stats on DS makes it subpar to all of the MH/BT/s3/new badge weapons (with the obvious exception of daggers). If you don't believe me just input it in the spreadsheets to see for yourself.
Edited onPatch 2.4.2
Been pondering to try and weave .5 second slams after my white hits while dual wielding 2.6 speed weapons. I'd take 2 points out of precision. I guess my DPS would go up a little if I was able to time it correctly without overlapping key skill times. Here's the GCD breakdown. What I mean by 'possible slam period' is when you wait for your main hand attack to land, you may use your slam after it hits during these possible periods.
0 bt
1.5 ww
3 rampage
4.5 free GCD
6 bt
7.5-10 possible slam period
10.5 ww
12 bt
13.5-16.5 possible slam period
18 bt
19.5 ww
21-22.5 possible slam period
24 bt
etc etc
It appears to be 3 slams per 4 BT. Slam would crit for a little more than a heroic strike. Very high geared players will have the rage for this most of the time. Correct me if I am way out there.
edit correctness
0 bt
1.5 ww
3 rampage
4.5 free GCD
6 bt
7.5-10 possible slam period
10.5 ww
12 bt
13.5-16.5 possible slam period
18 bt
19.5 ww
21-22.5 possible slam period
24 bt
etc etc
It appears to be 3 slams per 4 BT. Slam would crit for a little more than a heroic strike. Very high geared players will have the rage for this most of the time. Correct me if I am way out there.
edit correctness
Last edited by landsoul : 06/19/08 at 11:40 AM.
Well, even though you lose the hit with Sunwell gear and the 2 points out of precision, you're not losing rage from using Heroic Strike. I wonder if it'd be more threat efficient though even if it ends up being less DPS or too difficult to maintain.
Edited onPatch 2.4.2
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Originally Posted by Waagaa
This log proves nothing.
The sword spec gain always shows up in the combat log before the hit that triggered it. So what else happens at 22:12'34.953? |
Last edited by Graul : 06/20/08 at 2:45 AM.
A possible salution for high end rage use
at this point of gear lvl the only thing stopping me from doing more dmg is threat so I have simply moved the point from improved Ww to improved slam. Now I understand the benefit of slam with a two hander over a one hander but I would ask you all to look past that for a moment and just compare slam to Heroic strike.
Now useing a wicked slow 2.5 or more main hand is gonna net slam a decent chunk of damage all its own but with all the armor penatration available now those hits are hitting alot harder I am currently seeing crits from 2-3k and with a 1 sec cast time its really easy to cycle it into my BT Ww cd's.
Slams other benefit comes from the fact that not only does it not cause added threat but at 1 sec unless your a haste built fury warrior is always going to be faster then HS but unlike cleave will not break a CC target. That simple fact alone has made me very pleased with the talent change.
Aslo when takeing a consistant aamount of splash dmg I find I am able to pop to battle stand and use a BT / Slam rotation do prevent not only prevent myself from recieving the 10% added dmg penalty of zerker stance but to toss up some thunder clap for the druid or pally tank I am working with.
Now I am not going to sit here and try to tell you this build is going to cuase a major spike in your dmg as for me it was a very small increase but I will promise that you will maintain = dmg at a far more comfortable threat lvl.
What I really need is some big math experts to break down the numbers to help me get the rotation maximized also I wonder if with an ability to utilize so much more rage is there now any added benefit to a fast off hand (got a nice one just for execute range anyway).
Now useing a wicked slow 2.5 or more main hand is gonna net slam a decent chunk of damage all its own but with all the armor penatration available now those hits are hitting alot harder I am currently seeing crits from 2-3k and with a 1 sec cast time its really easy to cycle it into my BT Ww cd's.
Slams other benefit comes from the fact that not only does it not cause added threat but at 1 sec unless your a haste built fury warrior is always going to be faster then HS but unlike cleave will not break a CC target. That simple fact alone has made me very pleased with the talent change.
Aslo when takeing a consistant aamount of splash dmg I find I am able to pop to battle stand and use a BT / Slam rotation do prevent not only prevent myself from recieving the 10% added dmg penalty of zerker stance but to toss up some thunder clap for the druid or pally tank I am working with.
Now I am not going to sit here and try to tell you this build is going to cuase a major spike in your dmg as for me it was a very small increase but I will promise that you will maintain = dmg at a far more comfortable threat lvl.
What I really need is some big math experts to break down the numbers to help me get the rotation maximized also I wonder if with an ability to utilize so much more rage is there now any added benefit to a fast off hand (got a nice one just for execute range anyway).
Slamming DW is really bad because it doesn't just reset the hand that's Slamming, but both hands, and it also may prevent the off hand from taking any action while you're Slamming, even if you're about to land an attack (anyone feel free to correct this if it's wrong). Not advisable at all until maybe the expansion and then again only if the mechanic is changed. You really don't need a math expert to show you why it's bad right now.
But in theory it isnt bad if you have matching speed weapons and you can time the slams in between your BT and WW coodowns so that you always hit slam after the double melee swing and 2 seconds before your next BT or WW.
I think with threat capping herioc strike it might be worth it to try. It will take a lot of learning and experimentation. I'm going to try it in kara or ZA or something this weekend.
I think with threat capping herioc strike it might be worth it to try. It will take a lot of learning and experimentation. I'm going to try it in kara or ZA or something this weekend.
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Originally Posted by landsoul
But in theory it isnt bad if you have matching speed weapons and you can time the slams in between your BT and WW coodowns so that you always hit slam after the double melee swing and 2 seconds before your next BT or WW.
I think with threat capping herioc strike it might be worth it to try. It will take a lot of learning and experimentation. I'm going to try it in kara or ZA or something this weekend. |
If you're working off the standard Fury DPS rotation you have three brief windows of opportunity for that to work. Two 1 second windows before the second WW, and one 2.5 second window before the cycle repeats. The chance of things lining up well for the first two windows isn't great (roughly 40% of the time it'll land in one, but more ideal timings will be roughly 20%), so most of it will come from the third window of opportunity.
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Originally Posted by Eusomee
It's been a while since I've dug through every thread, but I do believe that matched speed weapons don't always keep the same swing time. If for some reason you swing from the front and get parried, that hand will be thrown off. But a far more normal problem would be the gain/loss of the Flurry aura. The last thread I remember reading about how evenly it worked when applied mid swing made it sound as if it was not only capable of, but rather prone to desynching your weapon swings.
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Edited onPatch 2.4.2
Only time I have experienced desyncing is if I parry, or a windfury proc happens on not the last attack from the aura and it does not crit. Windfury procs as far as I know consume flurry. Other than that there is no possibly way for matched weapons to desync.
Even if it did desync, the slam would resync it.
I made a cast sequence macro for it. It only seems to be working for Heroic Strike -> Slam right now.
/script UIErrorsFrame:Hide()
/castsequence reset=.1 Heroic Strike, Slam
/script UIErrorsFrame:Clear(); UIErrorsFrame:Show()
I'm trying to get it to work with just regular attacking instead of chaining it off a heroic strike.
Even if it did desync, the slam would resync it.
I made a cast sequence macro for it. It only seems to be working for Heroic Strike -> Slam right now.
/script UIErrorsFrame:Hide()
/castsequence reset=.1 Heroic Strike, Slam
/script UIErrorsFrame:Clear(); UIErrorsFrame:Show()
I'm trying to get it to work with just regular attacking instead of chaining it off a heroic strike.
Last edited by landsoul : 06/23/08 at 3:42 AM.
Same speed weapons do not desync. I tested it a long while ago.
I made a suggestion like this a while ago which was shut down rather abruptly. The concept works well but in practice it's nearly impossible to manage. The dps increase would be so small that it's almost not worth it in my opinion. For one, you'll run into the problem of slam occasionally clipping windfury procs like with a 2h spec. Another downfall is limiting the mobility of the dual wield spec, and ofc the fact that that just adds one more thing for you to watch while dps'ing.
Demo shout, Thunderclap if you have to, Rampage, BT/WW cooldowns, rage management, any aoe damage in the fight that you have to avoid, Trinket/Pot cooldowns and then add on top of all that watching your swing timer and adding another factor into your rage generation. I don't think I'd be able to handle it without developing some severe tunnel vision.
Again, in theory it should work and net you a small dps increase, but in practice and with human error I don't know how viable it is.
Demo shout, Thunderclap if you have to, Rampage, BT/WW cooldowns, rage management, any aoe damage in the fight that you have to avoid, Trinket/Pot cooldowns and then add on top of all that watching your swing timer and adding another factor into your rage generation. I don't think I'd be able to handle it without developing some severe tunnel vision.
Again, in theory it should work and net you a small dps increase, but in practice and with human error I don't know how viable it is.
What Voxx is saying is completely correct. I managed to practice on servants for quite a long time to perfect the rotations, slam would occur instantly and only after a heroic strike was casted using tweaked macros. The DPS between slamming and not using slam was completely the same. The only significant difference is that the slam rotation yields a lot less threat. The management part of it wasn't so bad after I got the hang of it.
Basically I made a macro that would keep my BT and WW on cooldown and I had timer watchers and if both were on high cooldown, I would start spamming the Slam macro.
The slam macro was a cast sequence macro with a .1 second reset. This means that if I didn't spam the macro fast enough to clear the reset, it would not cast the slam after the heroic strike, but would queue another heroic strike. This ensures that you don't wait too long and cannibalize your swing time with a bad slam cast. Swing timers were all useless because they couldn't track with dual wield unless you initiated combat with only one weapon and then switched to dual wield.
In conclusion, while not a significant DPS increase to warrant its annoyance to manage the rotations and the rage management required, it could possibly produce less threat. Having it be "another thing to watch" might cause some players to become distracted from more important things. With the use of the macro I made it also would definitely clip the windfury since it is 100ms fast. I play with around 50ms so it might not happen to me, but I don't want to find out that it does either.
I might try it out again during non-progression and provide more feedback.
Basically I made a macro that would keep my BT and WW on cooldown and I had timer watchers and if both were on high cooldown, I would start spamming the Slam macro.
The slam macro was a cast sequence macro with a .1 second reset. This means that if I didn't spam the macro fast enough to clear the reset, it would not cast the slam after the heroic strike, but would queue another heroic strike. This ensures that you don't wait too long and cannibalize your swing time with a bad slam cast. Swing timers were all useless because they couldn't track with dual wield unless you initiated combat with only one weapon and then switched to dual wield.
In conclusion, while not a significant DPS increase to warrant its annoyance to manage the rotations and the rage management required, it could possibly produce less threat. Having it be "another thing to watch" might cause some players to become distracted from more important things. With the use of the macro I made it also would definitely clip the windfury since it is 100ms fast. I play with around 50ms so it might not happen to me, but I don't want to find out that it does either.
I might try it out again during non-progression and provide more feedback.
You made a Slam-casting macro with build in delay, Landsoul?
Anyone using macroes for regular 2h slam builds?
Anyone using macroes for regular 2h slam builds?
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Originally Posted by landsoul
Windfury procs as far as I know consume flurry.
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I started trying it out, and so far it provides substantial (100dps on a fight where i do ~2500) boost. However the sample is really small right now. Its not too annoying to use honestly. I use 2 macros basically
/castsequence reset=6 (i went up from 2 before, because of problems sometimes) Bt,WW,Ram,BT,WW,BT
and
/castsequence reset=0.1 HS,Slam taken from this forums.
Question now is, where to take those 2 points for slam from ! :P
/castsequence reset=6 (i went up from 2 before, because of problems sometimes) Bt,WW,Ram,BT,WW,BT
and
/castsequence reset=0.1 HS,Slam taken from this forums.
Question now is, where to take those 2 points for slam from ! :P
Edited onPatch 2.4.2
edit: mispost
Last edited by giameetj : 06/23/08 at 1:34 PM.
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Originally Posted by Shha
Question now is, where to take those 2 points for slam from ! :P
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Edited onPatch 2.4.2
Well the :P I hoped would indicate sarcasm. I just wanted to point out one more weakness of the build - 17/44 build is really set in stone and getting imp Slam is a serious tradeoff.
Anyway to elaborate more on the subject. I'm pretty sure the whole thing can be brought down to one castsequence. I found I rarely slam at all except for 2 obvious points in the 18 second rotation.
Rotation as follows for the build
BT
WW
Rampage
FREE CD
BT
FREE CD
FREE CD
WW
BT
FREE CD
FREE CD
FREE CD
Leaves 2 spots for using Slam - after 2nd and 3rd BT. Anywhere else, and on top of other drawbacks you also delay your instants most likely - making it a bad investment.
It also makes the decision making rather easy - rage is never really a problem.
Knowing that we can try to estimate math behind the whole Slam business.
Over 18 seconds we slam twice so the quick gains/expenses table
we gain
2xSlam damage
we lose
2x 0.5-0.6 sec on white swing (latency really isnt a problem with the castsequence) - on BOTH hands. So we can assume delaying your MH/OH attacks by 1.1 sec (we are talking about synced or half synced weapons - half synced means that your OH is twice as fast as mh - practically case for warglaives)
30 rage for slams
rage from the white hits.
Now lets look at data for my warrior. (Data for fight like Brutallus)
White MH = ~2350crits/1150 hits. OH = 62.5% of it. Crit rate = 44%. Glancing Rate = 25% Miss rate = 12% Average White MH+OH = 2336. Average White MH = 1440.
Weapon speed = ~1.73 WITHOUT DST proc
1.1 of white attacks = 1485 damage loss.
Slam damage. MH + 140 - so 2740 crits 1290 hits 44% Crit rate = 1928 average. we get it twice so 3860 around.
2375 damage ahead so far.
Now to make it simpler - the rage we lose is around 30+1 MH hit. Its around 1.5 heroics. Heroics damage is actually same as slam - averaging 1930 around, vs white hits averaging 1440. So by not using heroics here we get 735 damage loss.
2375-735= 1640. Over 18 second rotation it adds up to 90 dps.
HOWEVER, the important part is here. We also risk of not getting TWO wf procs, so on average 40% of a "improved WH". To shorten the math we can assume WF clipped procs to average 1600 damage, so 40% of it means 640 further down the drain and reduction in effectiveness to ~50 dps. Hopefully something blizzard will fix.
That math is probably flawed at times. Its a hasty work, and It doesnt pretend to be perfect - or even useful for making real calculation. The reason for posting it is simple, it SEEMS that the whole concept is viable, and the accuracy of math here is enough to prove that in my opinion.
P.S This assumes badge fists (still no luck on OH
), synced with speed. If someone wants, math for warglaives should be probably even better - 10% slower weapon means harder slams for same "investment" basically - so even more viable.
Edit: For blatant math mistake.
Anyway to elaborate more on the subject. I'm pretty sure the whole thing can be brought down to one castsequence. I found I rarely slam at all except for 2 obvious points in the 18 second rotation.
Rotation as follows for the build
BT
WW
Rampage
FREE CD
BT
FREE CD
FREE CD
WW
BT
FREE CD
FREE CD
FREE CD
Leaves 2 spots for using Slam - after 2nd and 3rd BT. Anywhere else, and on top of other drawbacks you also delay your instants most likely - making it a bad investment.
It also makes the decision making rather easy - rage is never really a problem.
Knowing that we can try to estimate math behind the whole Slam business.
Over 18 seconds we slam twice so the quick gains/expenses table
we gain
2xSlam damage
we lose
2x 0.5-0.6 sec on white swing (latency really isnt a problem with the castsequence) - on BOTH hands. So we can assume delaying your MH/OH attacks by 1.1 sec (we are talking about synced or half synced weapons - half synced means that your OH is twice as fast as mh - practically case for warglaives)
30 rage for slams
rage from the white hits.
Now lets look at data for my warrior. (Data for fight like Brutallus)
White MH = ~2350crits/1150 hits. OH = 62.5% of it. Crit rate = 44%. Glancing Rate = 25% Miss rate = 12% Average White MH+OH = 2336. Average White MH = 1440.
Weapon speed = ~1.73 WITHOUT DST proc
1.1 of white attacks = 1485 damage loss.
Slam damage. MH + 140 - so 2740 crits 1290 hits 44% Crit rate = 1928 average. we get it twice so 3860 around.
2375 damage ahead so far.
Now to make it simpler - the rage we lose is around 30+1 MH hit. Its around 1.5 heroics. Heroics damage is actually same as slam - averaging 1930 around, vs white hits averaging 1440. So by not using heroics here we get 735 damage loss.
2375-735= 1640. Over 18 second rotation it adds up to 90 dps.
HOWEVER, the important part is here. We also risk of not getting TWO wf procs, so on average 40% of a "improved WH". To shorten the math we can assume WF clipped procs to average 1600 damage, so 40% of it means 640 further down the drain and reduction in effectiveness to ~50 dps. Hopefully something blizzard will fix.
That math is probably flawed at times. Its a hasty work, and It doesnt pretend to be perfect - or even useful for making real calculation. The reason for posting it is simple, it SEEMS that the whole concept is viable, and the accuracy of math here is enough to prove that in my opinion.
P.S This assumes badge fists (still no luck on OH
), synced with speed. If someone wants, math for warglaives should be probably even better - 10% slower weapon means harder slams for same "investment" basically - so even more viable.Edit: For blatant math mistake.
Last edited by Shha : 06/23/08 at 3:30 PM.
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Originally Posted by landsoul
/script UIErrorsFrame:Hide()
/castsequence reset=.1 Heroic Strike, Slam /script UIErrorsFrame:Clear(); UIErrorsFrame:Show() |
Math on dual-wield Slam looks pretty good, but one thing you didn't take into account is the loss of 2 talent points, which I guess would come out of Precision?
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Originally Posted by DarthGreg
Math on dual-wield Slam looks pretty good, but one thing you didn't take into account is the loss of 2 talent points, which I guess would come out of Precision?
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Edited onPatch 2.4.2
Here are my thoughts on high-end TBC fury warriors. Feel free to correct me as what I'm saying is really just a gathering of observations.
I see many of the fury warriors that have access to the full sunwell loot table are switching to fast offhands, whether it be [Grip of Mannoroth] or warglaives (or [Swiftsteel Bludgeon] in the case of spreadsheet-defying Perkynose).
What could be the cause of this? Well let's examine what makes a slow offhand preferential in the first place. A common misconception (although I'm sure it's fairly uncommon on these forums) is that the increased damage from whirlwind puts slow offhands in front. In reality the reason they have always been better is because the slower attack speed over the course of a boss fight uses so many less flurry charges, therefore allowing a significant increase in instant attacks per 3 flurry charges thus vastly increasing flurry uptime.
Now, when you reach the level of gear available at the end of TBC content, your raid buffed crit is 9 times out of 10 going to be over 40%. 40% crit has such a ridiculously high flurry uptime that the use of a slow offhand provides a marginal increase. Also at this level of gear you'll be sitting around 200+ hit rating and expertise capped. With stats like these a slow offhand becomes inferior due to offhands striking so much that the extra rage generation allows constant usage of heroic strike. Fin.
I see many of the fury warriors that have access to the full sunwell loot table are switching to fast offhands, whether it be [Grip of Mannoroth] or warglaives (or [Swiftsteel Bludgeon] in the case of spreadsheet-defying Perkynose).
What could be the cause of this? Well let's examine what makes a slow offhand preferential in the first place. A common misconception (although I'm sure it's fairly uncommon on these forums) is that the increased damage from whirlwind puts slow offhands in front. In reality the reason they have always been better is because the slower attack speed over the course of a boss fight uses so many less flurry charges, therefore allowing a significant increase in instant attacks per 3 flurry charges thus vastly increasing flurry uptime.
Now, when you reach the level of gear available at the end of TBC content, your raid buffed crit is 9 times out of 10 going to be over 40%. 40% crit has such a ridiculously high flurry uptime that the use of a slow offhand provides a marginal increase. Also at this level of gear you'll be sitting around 200+ hit rating and expertise capped. With stats like these a slow offhand becomes inferior due to offhands striking so much that the extra rage generation allows constant usage of heroic strike. Fin.
Last edited by manglemangle : 06/23/08 at 6:23 PM.
I was always under the impression that matching weapon speed, while likely ideal, was still a distant third to raw white DPS and stats when choosing an off hand weapon.
Edited onPatch 2.4.2
Question peoples. I am always looking to see what can be done w/ prot as far as dps goes. I know 1H Weapon Specialization increases your shield slam damage, but what about dual wield specialization? It reads with 5 points, "increases the damage by your offhand weapon by 25%"
Last edited by Jrk : 06/23/08 at 8:18 PM.
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Originally Posted by manglemangle
What could be the cause of this? Well let's examine what makes a slow offhand preferential in the first place. A common misconception (although I'm sure it's fairly uncommon on these forums) is that the increased damage from whirlwind puts slow offhands in front. In reality the reason they have always been better is because the slower attack speed over the course of a boss fight uses so many less flurry charges, therefore allowing a significant increase in instant attacks per 3 flurry charges thus vastly increasing flurry uptime.
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The main reason for going with a slow oh is the increased WW damage (about 0.5% in total dps), not increased flurry uptime. Otherwise I agree with your conclusion, having close to unlimited rage makes HS a lot more important than WW as a source of damage and a fast OH can help slightly with this (even though I'm sure slow offhands works fine as well).
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Originally Posted by Gruntle
Even if you assume that matched weapons always gives you 4 flurried attacks and unmatched always 3 you will find that the difference in flurry uptime between slow-fast and slow-slow is on the order of a few percent (for reasonable values of crit). In reality this is not how it works since flurry can go on and off midswing, making the difference even smaller (this was tested a while back by dr_ALLCOM3 in the 2.3 spreadsheet thread). All in all the effect of having 2-3% higher flurry uptime will be a lot smaller than the the lost damage from WW.
The main reason for going with a slow oh is the increased WW damage (about 0.5% in total dps), not increased flurry uptime. Otherwise I agree with your conclusion, having close to unlimited rage makes HS a lot more important than WW as a source of damage and a fast OH can help slightly with this (even though I'm sure slow offhands works fine as well). |
You just take the offhand with the better stats.
[Grip of Mannoroth] has haste and hit, both aren't that good.
[Mounting Vengeance] has Ignore Armor and, even better, two sockets.
Help with DPS
Hey guys, figured I'd post about something that has been bothering me for a while to see if I can get some assistance.
First of all, I raid as DW fury, and since I'm prot right now on my armory, and for the weekend I'll be pvp spec, so I'll just give my gear: Illidari helm, choker of serrated blades, tier 6 shoulders, teron's cloak, sunwell BS chest piece (love it!), tier 6 bracers, grips of silent justice (trying to get immortal dusk but only two people who can craft it in server quit the game lawl), red belt of battle, endless rage legs (divine ret wont drop >.<), boots of obliteration (RoS is being a betch), Illidan ring, ZA timed event Ring, Shard of Contempt, DST, Badges xbow, Dragonstrike and Swiftsteel Bludgeon.
My problem is, my dps is getting me pissed right now because in Teron I get like 1870dps (was my best so far on him but pulled aggro and died, prolly would've made it to 1900+) and on Hyjal it was normal for me to hit around the 1700-1800dps (havent done hyjal in a while). Regardless, on Brutallus its hard for me to keep 1700dps. I bet having to be the demoshout guy now (which has given me some trouble to be honest, incorporating it in the rotation, even though I know it shouldnt) and having to use Solarian Sapphire cause arms warrior wont use it >.< dont help at all, but seeing as some people here are doing 2.6k+ dps I know there must be something wrong with how I'm dpsing.
We havent killed Brutallus yet, we're having troubles with tanks dying, so we havent been able to get too many 20% > test runs yet so no recklessness nor even heroisms normally, but still I think I should be doing better. My main concern and question would be:
What type of dps do you fury warriors are normally doing in that fight before heroism and executes?
Also, read about Shha (or is it Ssha? I'm sorry if I miss typed it) giving priority to heroic strikes rather than instants? Is that correct? And how many seconds before running out do you refresh rampage to help maximize performance? Cause I've had the problem that I tried to wait for around 5 seconds or less, and BT or WW or both come up around that time, or I go rage starved with a bad streak of misses, and I lose it =(
I'm on my way to get the left fist weapon from badges, since warglaives refuse to drop for us (Im going to get em most likely but 16 kills, no glaives) nor mounting vengeance and I used my badges for some of the tanking gear (I dps and tank both almost equally as needed be), but I doubt that only the offhand would make so much difference in dps.
Thanks in advance on any tip that you guys could share.
First of all, I raid as DW fury, and since I'm prot right now on my armory, and for the weekend I'll be pvp spec, so I'll just give my gear: Illidari helm, choker of serrated blades, tier 6 shoulders, teron's cloak, sunwell BS chest piece (love it!), tier 6 bracers, grips of silent justice (trying to get immortal dusk but only two people who can craft it in server quit the game lawl), red belt of battle, endless rage legs (divine ret wont drop >.<), boots of obliteration (RoS is being a betch), Illidan ring, ZA timed event Ring, Shard of Contempt, DST, Badges xbow, Dragonstrike and Swiftsteel Bludgeon.
My problem is, my dps is getting me pissed right now because in Teron I get like 1870dps (was my best so far on him but pulled aggro and died, prolly would've made it to 1900+) and on Hyjal it was normal for me to hit around the 1700-1800dps (havent done hyjal in a while). Regardless, on Brutallus its hard for me to keep 1700dps. I bet having to be the demoshout guy now (which has given me some trouble to be honest, incorporating it in the rotation, even though I know it shouldnt) and having to use Solarian Sapphire cause arms warrior wont use it >.< dont help at all, but seeing as some people here are doing 2.6k+ dps I know there must be something wrong with how I'm dpsing.
We havent killed Brutallus yet, we're having troubles with tanks dying, so we havent been able to get too many 20% > test runs yet so no recklessness nor even heroisms normally, but still I think I should be doing better. My main concern and question would be:
What type of dps do you fury warriors are normally doing in that fight before heroism and executes?
Also, read about Shha (or is it Ssha? I'm sorry if I miss typed it
) giving priority to heroic strikes rather than instants? Is that correct? And how many seconds before running out do you refresh rampage to help maximize performance? Cause I've had the problem that I tried to wait for around 5 seconds or less, and BT or WW or both come up around that time, or I go rage starved with a bad streak of misses, and I lose it =(I'm on my way to get the left fist weapon from badges, since warglaives refuse to drop for us (Im going to get em most likely but 16 kills, no glaives) nor mounting vengeance and I used my badges for some of the tanking gear (I dps and tank both almost equally as needed be), but I doubt that only the offhand would make so much difference in dps.
Thanks in advance on any tip that you guys could share.
Well first of all, waiting for things to drop is your first mistake. Warglaive, boots, divine ret, etc. just plan on them not dropping anytime soon. Get rid of the Dragonstrike. Pickup a 4 piece replacing your legs and gloves as a quick, easy fix for a little boost. Grab the Ninja leather badge boots or season4, which are slightly better than warboots when gemmed correctly. Talk to your melee leader and see if arms warrior can do demo/solarian since that is their job. Grab an S3 weapon at least, or if you cant PvP, the badge fist. Mounting Vengeance will also help you, if it does drop. I wouldnt recommend heroic priority at your gear level. Just stick to 6 second BT 9 second WW rotation. Try to refresh rampage at the end of its timer, or up to 10 seconds early if you need to lineup your rage/cooldowns in order. If your rage bank is high, spam the heroic strike button. Spam those buttons. You can get a bloodthirst with windfury attack power if times correctly. Chain haste pots. Go leatherworking for drums of battle. Use recklessness, BT/WW/HS with heroism, switch to fast/fast when reck is done and spam BT/execute.
If you are tanking part time, why would you be after a glaive against a rogue who might have more tenure or DPS in general, regardless of DKP or any system you use?
Regardless, these kinds of help posts in general do not belong on these forums, but I will help you out anyways.
If you are tanking part time, why would you be after a glaive against a rogue who might have more tenure or DPS in general, regardless of DKP or any system you use?
Regardless, these kinds of help posts in general do not belong on these forums, but I will help you out anyways.
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Originally Posted by dr_AllCOM3
That's right. There is no such thing as flurries hits or fast offhand eating charges.
You just take the offhand with the better stats. [Grip of Mannoroth] has haste and hit, both aren't that good. [Mounting Vengeance] has Ignore Armor and, even better, two sockets. |
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Originally Posted by Mardraum
What about for execute phase? fast / fast is still the best? Surely you aren't WWing during execute
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Originally Posted by landsoul
Well first of all, waiting for things to drop is your first mistake. Warglaive, boots, divine ret, etc. just plan on them not dropping anytime soon. Get rid of the Dragonstrike. Pickup a 4 piece replacing your legs and gloves as a quick, easy fix for a little boost. Grab the Ninja leather badge boots or season4, which are slightly better than warboots when gemmed correctly. Talk to your melee leader and see if arms warrior can do demo/solarian since that is their job. Grab an S3 weapon at least, or if you cant PvP, the badge fist. Mounting Vengeance will also help you, if it does drop. I wouldnt recommend heroic priority at your gear level. Just stick to 6 second BT 9 second WW rotation. Try to refresh rampage at the end of its timer, or up to 10 seconds early if you need to lineup your rage/cooldowns in order. If your rage bank is high, spam the heroic strike button. Spam those buttons. You can get a bloodthirst with windfury attack power if times correctly. Chain haste pots. Go leatherworking for drums of battle. Use recklessness, BT/WW/HS with heroism, switch to fast/fast when reck is done and spam BT/execute.
If you are tanking part time, why would you be after a glaive against a rogue who might have more tenure or DPS in general, regardless of DKP or any system you use? Regardless, these kinds of help posts in general do not belong on these forums, but I will help you out anyways. |
As for the glaives, I tank because we didnt had a second tank. I was tank with another warrior, a feral druid and 2 pally tanks, so I wasnt needed, went fury, both pallies stopped playing, now we got another pally and another warrior a few days ago so I wont have to tank anymore. And everyone knew I wouldnt tank stuff when I got the glaives.
Thanks a lot for the tips, I totally agree with you that waiting for things to drop is what has been kicking my behind the most =/
Thanks again.
Edited onPatch 2.4.2
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Originally Posted by landsoul
I wouldnt recommend heroic priority at your gear level. Just stick to 6 second BT 9 second WW rotation.
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Is it basically just switching the roles of Heroic Strike and your instants in your rotation and making Heroic Strike your biggest priority while using BT and WW when your rage spikes high enough for you to use them?
Last edited by Tankin : 06/29/08 at 2:44 PM.
Edited onPatch 2.4.2
Tankin (and maybe also landsoul), I think you have misunderstood the "heroic strike" priority cycle. It has little to do with gear level, a lot more to do with the type of fights that are common in SWP. You need a lot of incoming damage to maintain the rage generation needed to spam HS on every hit. Also, you will not quit doing BT/WWs just because you're doing HS, you do both in this situation. BT/WW will always be higher in damage/rage, there is no way you can get higher damage by not doing those attacks and only doing HS. This is true even with a fast MH.
In the logs it will seem like all you do is HS (having 40% damage from HS in the wws log is not uncommon), but this is due to how HS works. HS replaces a white hit, so 40% HS damage just means that you have taken a lot of the white damage and converted it to HS.
edit: I meant "little to do with gear level" as in "less to do with gear level than incoming damage".
In the logs it will seem like all you do is HS (having 40% damage from HS in the wws log is not uncommon), but this is due to how HS works. HS replaces a white hit, so 40% HS damage just means that you have taken a lot of the white damage and converted it to HS.
edit: I meant "little to do with gear level" as in "less to do with gear level than incoming damage".
Last edited by Gruntle : 07/01/08 at 9:01 AM.
If you keep referring to my wws/post, then I feel obliged to correct you.
My "heroic priority", as you can actually read in my own post has nothing to do with dropping WW/BT from rotation. It doesnt even really prioritize HS over them. What it means I forfeit the rage buffer people keep to make sure to be able BT/WW on cooldown. I st3ated that with good enough gear, the possibility of being rage starved and not be able to BT/WW is low, and possible delay of 0.5-1 sec in worst case, wont make as much difference in dps, as losing rage on few crits because you tried to stay at 60+ all time like some people advise. In short - if your BT/WW are on cooldown, you do HS, if they are not, they have priority. However I just dont stay "above xx rage", before i do heroics - I do them every time i can afford them.
My "heroic priority", as you can actually read in my own post has nothing to do with dropping WW/BT from rotation. It doesnt even really prioritize HS over them. What it means I forfeit the rage buffer people keep to make sure to be able BT/WW on cooldown. I st3ated that with good enough gear, the possibility of being rage starved and not be able to BT/WW is low, and possible delay of 0.5-1 sec in worst case, wont make as much difference in dps, as losing rage on few crits because you tried to stay at 60+ all time like some people advise. In short - if your BT/WW are on cooldown, you do HS, if they are not, they have priority. However I just dont stay "above xx rage", before i do heroics - I do them every time i can afford them.
Thanks for clearing that up for me. That's what I initially thought, but when I went looking on the WWS scoreboards, I just got more confused.
I realize now that I was forgetting to factor in execute phase and that explains the lower number of BTs/WWs than I was expecting based on the length of the fight assuming a perfect rotation. I just assumed it was because of such high heroic strike usage, but now I see why my logic was flawed.
I realize now that I was forgetting to factor in execute phase and that explains the lower number of BTs/WWs than I was expecting based on the length of the fight assuming a perfect rotation. I just assumed it was because of such high heroic strike usage, but now I see why my logic was flawed.
It so does too have to do with gear level. Incoming damage + insane rage generation = a lot of rage. You cant have it without lots of gear. You don't walk into Sunwell with partial BT gear and expect to have an unlimited rage supply even if you take that incoming damage, right? The implication is to spam heroic strike without having to worry about rage management, because once the BT and WW timer is available, all you have to do is literally wait less than a second and yuo will have the rage to use it. Keeping your hits per second high through the use of heroic strike, negating clances and misses in the main hand, to guarantee more procs and windfury, begin to shine. Keeping the rotation is sill optimal since it is so tight, but you have to worry less about having the rage for it because you HS too much.
Of course it has to do with gear level as well, but when running with slow-slow (or fast-fast too for that matter but less so) and trying to do HS on every white hit (+BT/WW cycle) I suspect that even end-game gear will not be enough. The rage from incoming damage will be necessary to get the rage generation smooth enough for HS to be usable at every swing. I think you need both great gear and incoming damage to make it work.
Well, I suppose that at some point with enough gear you can manage to generate enough rage with minimum incoming damage and your offhand doing all the work. May it be from excess of armor penetration that makes your offhand hit hard enough or a lot of haste (DTS, Warglaive proc, Flurry, haste, all that good stuff), that makes your offhand fast enough to generate enough rage to sustain your rotation + heroics on every hit, I'm sure when you're hitting 2.6k dps its posible.
For me, I'm still quite dependant on raid damage to be able to perform such feat. For instance, Brutallus, which as very low incoming damage encounter (on melee group) makes me stay around 1600-1700dps (without heroism/recklessness/execute phase since we have gotten him below 20% only a handful of times, and a lot of times missing key buffs like an enhancement shaman due to attendance... yeah...), getting rage starved quite often, making me break my rotation by a couple seconds, yet at Teron I can go all the way up to 1900 (and most likely pull aggro and get my face removed like last week).
Just like Landsoul says, my level of gear is just not at that point yet indeed, and that I could notice quite clearly last night doing Brutallus and see myself go rage starved and having to wait like 3 seconds waiting to BT, then having to skip that BT because I noticed my rampage has 2 seconds before it falls off (and I time my rampage have demoshout behind it, so I panic at the idea of demo falling off). That really hurts dps a lot.
What I do assume is that just like pre BC, warriors (fury specially) escalate really well with gear at end game, and the jump from 1.9kdps to 2.4k dps is a matter of only a couple months of gearing (last pieces of BT and getting some items in sunwell like the rest of tier 6). Warriors have an unusual synergy with their stats and how they affect rage generation that eventually, from the point I'm stuck in right now to the point Landsoul is, or Shha is, gear makes your rage generation be independant from raid damage, increasing dps exponentially, which is something that rogues for example dont get to enjoy. I could be wrong, of course. It might just a bold idea on my part. But it does look like from the point I am and forwards is when a dps warrior becomes the dps warrior they were in Naxx days that you couldnt get rid of the rage fast enough, getting the benefit of both the stat increase from the gear and the benefit of the rage generation increase as well.
For me, I'm still quite dependant on raid damage to be able to perform such feat. For instance, Brutallus, which as very low incoming damage encounter (on melee group) makes me stay around 1600-1700dps (without heroism/recklessness/execute phase since we have gotten him below 20% only a handful of times, and a lot of times missing key buffs like an enhancement shaman due to attendance... yeah...), getting rage starved quite often, making me break my rotation by a couple seconds, yet at Teron I can go all the way up to 1900 (and most likely pull aggro and get my face removed like last week).
Just like Landsoul says, my level of gear is just not at that point yet indeed, and that I could notice quite clearly last night doing Brutallus and see myself go rage starved and having to wait like 3 seconds waiting to BT, then having to skip that BT because I noticed my rampage has 2 seconds before it falls off (and I time my rampage have demoshout behind it, so I panic at the idea of demo falling off). That really hurts dps a lot.
What I do assume is that just like pre BC, warriors (fury specially) escalate really well with gear at end game, and the jump from 1.9kdps to 2.4k dps is a matter of only a couple months of gearing (last pieces of BT and getting some items in sunwell like the rest of tier 6). Warriors have an unusual synergy with their stats and how they affect rage generation that eventually, from the point I'm stuck in right now to the point Landsoul is, or Shha is, gear makes your rage generation be independant from raid damage, increasing dps exponentially, which is something that rogues for example dont get to enjoy. I could be wrong, of course. It might just a bold idea on my part. But it does look like from the point I am and forwards is when a dps warrior becomes the dps warrior they were in Naxx days that you couldnt get rid of the rage fast enough, getting the benefit of both the stat increase from the gear and the benefit of the rage generation increase as well.
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Originally Posted by landsoul
Windfury procs as far as I know consume flurry.
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I started trying it out, and so far it provides substantial (100dps on a fight where i do ~2500) boost. However the sample is really small right now. Its not too annoying to use honestly. I use 2 macros basically
/castsequence reset=6 (i went up from 2 before, because of problems sometimes) Bt,WW,Ram,BT,WW,BT
and
/castsequence reset=0.1 HS,Slam taken from this forums.
Question now is, where to take those 2 points for slam from ! :P
/castsequence reset=6 (i went up from 2 before, because of problems sometimes) Bt,WW,Ram,BT,WW,BT
and
/castsequence reset=0.1 HS,Slam taken from this forums.
Question now is, where to take those 2 points for slam from ! :P
Edited onPatch 2.4.2
edit: mispost
Last edited by giameetj : 06/23/08 at 1:34 PM.
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Originally Posted by Shha
Question now is, where to take those 2 points for slam from ! :P
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Edited onPatch 2.4.2
Well the :P I hoped would indicate sarcasm. I just wanted to point out one more weakness of the build - 17/44 build is really set in stone and getting imp Slam is a serious tradeoff.
Anyway to elaborate more on the subject. I'm pretty sure the whole thing can be brought down to one castsequence. I found I rarely slam at all except for 2 obvious points in the 18 second rotation.
Rotation as follows for the build
BT
WW
Rampage
FREE CD
BT
FREE CD
FREE CD
WW
BT
FREE CD
FREE CD
FREE CD
Leaves 2 spots for using Slam - after 2nd and 3rd BT. Anywhere else, and on top of other drawbacks you also delay your instants most likely - making it a bad investment.
It also makes the decision making rather easy - rage is never really a problem.
Knowing that we can try to estimate math behind the whole Slam business.
Over 18 seconds we slam twice so the quick gains/expenses table
we gain
2xSlam damage
we lose
2x 0.5-0.6 sec on white swing (latency really isnt a problem with the castsequence) - on BOTH hands. So we can assume delaying your MH/OH attacks by 1.1 sec (we are talking about synced or half synced weapons - half synced means that your OH is twice as fast as mh - practically case for warglaives)
30 rage for slams
rage from the white hits.
Now lets look at data for my warrior. (Data for fight like Brutallus)
White MH = ~2350crits/1150 hits. OH = 62.5% of it. Crit rate = 44%. Glancing Rate = 25% Miss rate = 12% Average White MH+OH = 2336. Average White MH = 1440.
Weapon speed = ~1.73 WITHOUT DST proc
1.1 of white attacks = 1485 damage loss.
Slam damage. MH + 140 - so 2740 crits 1290 hits 44% Crit rate = 1928 average. we get it twice so 3860 around.
2375 damage ahead so far.
Now to make it simpler - the rage we lose is around 30+1 MH hit. Its around 1.5 heroics. Heroics damage is actually same as slam - averaging 1930 around, vs white hits averaging 1440. So by not using heroics here we get 735 damage loss.
2375-735= 1640. Over 18 second rotation it adds up to 90 dps.
HOWEVER, the important part is here. We also risk of not getting TWO wf procs, so on average 40% of a "improved WH". To shorten the math we can assume WF clipped procs to average 1600 damage, so 40% of it means 640 further down the drain and reduction in effectiveness to ~50 dps. Hopefully something blizzard will fix.
That math is probably flawed at times. Its a hasty work, and It doesnt pretend to be perfect - or even useful for making real calculation. The reason for posting it is simple, it SEEMS that the whole concept is viable, and the accuracy of math here is enough to prove that in my opinion.
P.S This assumes badge fists (still no luck on OH ), synced with speed. If someone wants, math for warglaives should be probably even better - 10% slower weapon means harder slams for same "investment" basically - so even more viable.
Edit: For blatant math mistake.
Anyway to elaborate more on the subject. I'm pretty sure the whole thing can be brought down to one castsequence. I found I rarely slam at all except for 2 obvious points in the 18 second rotation.
Rotation as follows for the build
BT
WW
Rampage
FREE CD
BT
FREE CD
FREE CD
WW
BT
FREE CD
FREE CD
FREE CD
Leaves 2 spots for using Slam - after 2nd and 3rd BT. Anywhere else, and on top of other drawbacks you also delay your instants most likely - making it a bad investment.
It also makes the decision making rather easy - rage is never really a problem.
Knowing that we can try to estimate math behind the whole Slam business.
Over 18 seconds we slam twice so the quick gains/expenses table
we gain
2xSlam damage
we lose
2x 0.5-0.6 sec on white swing (latency really isnt a problem with the castsequence) - on BOTH hands. So we can assume delaying your MH/OH attacks by 1.1 sec (we are talking about synced or half synced weapons - half synced means that your OH is twice as fast as mh - practically case for warglaives)
30 rage for slams
rage from the white hits.
Now lets look at data for my warrior. (Data for fight like Brutallus)
White MH = ~2350crits/1150 hits. OH = 62.5% of it. Crit rate = 44%. Glancing Rate = 25% Miss rate = 12% Average White MH+OH = 2336. Average White MH = 1440.
Weapon speed = ~1.73 WITHOUT DST proc
1.1 of white attacks = 1485 damage loss.
Slam damage. MH + 140 - so 2740 crits 1290 hits 44% Crit rate = 1928 average. we get it twice so 3860 around.
2375 damage ahead so far.
Now to make it simpler - the rage we lose is around 30+1 MH hit. Its around 1.5 heroics. Heroics damage is actually same as slam - averaging 1930 around, vs white hits averaging 1440. So by not using heroics here we get 735 damage loss.
2375-735= 1640. Over 18 second rotation it adds up to 90 dps.
HOWEVER, the important part is here. We also risk of not getting TWO wf procs, so on average 40% of a "improved WH". To shorten the math we can assume WF clipped procs to average 1600 damage, so 40% of it means 640 further down the drain and reduction in effectiveness to ~50 dps. Hopefully something blizzard will fix.
That math is probably flawed at times. Its a hasty work, and It doesnt pretend to be perfect - or even useful for making real calculation. The reason for posting it is simple, it SEEMS that the whole concept is viable, and the accuracy of math here is enough to prove that in my opinion.
P.S This assumes badge fists (still no luck on OH
), synced with speed. If someone wants, math for warglaives should be probably even better - 10% slower weapon means harder slams for same "investment" basically - so even more viable.Edit: For blatant math mistake.
Last edited by Shha : 06/23/08 at 3:30 PM.
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Originally Posted by landsoul
/script UIErrorsFrame:Hide()
/castsequence reset=.1 Heroic Strike, Slam /script UIErrorsFrame:Clear(); UIErrorsFrame:Show() |
Math on dual-wield Slam looks pretty good, but one thing you didn't take into account is the loss of 2 talent points, which I guess would come out of Precision?
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Originally Posted by DarthGreg
Math on dual-wield Slam looks pretty good, but one thing you didn't take into account is the loss of 2 talent points, which I guess would come out of Precision?
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Edited onPatch 2.4.2
Here are my thoughts on high-end TBC fury warriors. Feel free to correct me as what I'm saying is really just a gathering of observations.
I see many of the fury warriors that have access to the full sunwell loot table are switching to fast offhands, whether it be [Grip of Mannoroth] or warglaives (or [Swiftsteel Bludgeon] in the case of spreadsheet-defying Perkynose).
What could be the cause of this? Well let's examine what makes a slow offhand preferential in the first place. A common misconception (although I'm sure it's fairly uncommon on these forums) is that the increased damage from whirlwind puts slow offhands in front. In reality the reason they have always been better is because the slower attack speed over the course of a boss fight uses so many less flurry charges, therefore allowing a significant increase in instant attacks per 3 flurry charges thus vastly increasing flurry uptime.
Now, when you reach the level of gear available at the end of TBC content, your raid buffed crit is 9 times out of 10 going to be over 40%. 40% crit has such a ridiculously high flurry uptime that the use of a slow offhand provides a marginal increase. Also at this level of gear you'll be sitting around 200+ hit rating and expertise capped. With stats like these a slow offhand becomes inferior due to offhands striking so much that the extra rage generation allows constant usage of heroic strike. Fin.
I see many of the fury warriors that have access to the full sunwell loot table are switching to fast offhands, whether it be [Grip of Mannoroth] or warglaives (or [Swiftsteel Bludgeon] in the case of spreadsheet-defying Perkynose).
What could be the cause of this? Well let's examine what makes a slow offhand preferential in the first place. A common misconception (although I'm sure it's fairly uncommon on these forums) is that the increased damage from whirlwind puts slow offhands in front. In reality the reason they have always been better is because the slower attack speed over the course of a boss fight uses so many less flurry charges, therefore allowing a significant increase in instant attacks per 3 flurry charges thus vastly increasing flurry uptime.
Now, when you reach the level of gear available at the end of TBC content, your raid buffed crit is 9 times out of 10 going to be over 40%. 40% crit has such a ridiculously high flurry uptime that the use of a slow offhand provides a marginal increase. Also at this level of gear you'll be sitting around 200+ hit rating and expertise capped. With stats like these a slow offhand becomes inferior due to offhands striking so much that the extra rage generation allows constant usage of heroic strike. Fin.
Last edited by manglemangle : 06/23/08 at 6:23 PM.
I was always under the impression that matching weapon speed, while likely ideal, was still a distant third to raw white DPS and stats when choosing an off hand weapon.
Edited onPatch 2.4.2
Question peoples. I am always looking to see what can be done w/ prot as far as dps goes. I know 1H Weapon Specialization increases your shield slam damage, but what about dual wield specialization? It reads with 5 points, "increases the damage by your offhand weapon by 25%"
Last edited by Jrk : 06/23/08 at 8:18 PM.
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Originally Posted by manglemangle
What could be the cause of this? Well let's examine what makes a slow offhand preferential in the first place. A common misconception (although I'm sure it's fairly uncommon on these forums) is that the increased damage from whirlwind puts slow offhands in front. In reality the reason they have always been better is because the slower attack speed over the course of a boss fight uses so many less flurry charges, therefore allowing a significant increase in instant attacks per 3 flurry charges thus vastly increasing flurry uptime.
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The main reason for going with a slow oh is the increased WW damage (about 0.5% in total dps), not increased flurry uptime. Otherwise I agree with your conclusion, having close to unlimited rage makes HS a lot more important than WW as a source of damage and a fast OH can help slightly with this (even though I'm sure slow offhands works fine as well).
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Originally Posted by Gruntle
Even if you assume that matched weapons always gives you 4 flurried attacks and unmatched always 3 you will find that the difference in flurry uptime between slow-fast and slow-slow is on the order of a few percent (for reasonable values of crit). In reality this is not how it works since flurry can go on and off midswing, making the difference even smaller (this was tested a while back by dr_ALLCOM3 in the 2.3 spreadsheet thread). All in all the effect of having 2-3% higher flurry uptime will be a lot smaller than the the lost damage from WW.
The main reason for going with a slow oh is the increased WW damage (about 0.5% in total dps), not increased flurry uptime. Otherwise I agree with your conclusion, having close to unlimited rage makes HS a lot more important than WW as a source of damage and a fast OH can help slightly with this (even though I'm sure slow offhands works fine as well). |
You just take the offhand with the better stats.
[Grip of Mannoroth] has haste and hit, both aren't that good.
[Mounting Vengeance] has Ignore Armor and, even better, two sockets.
Help with DPS
Hey guys, figured I'd post about something that has been bothering me for a while to see if I can get some assistance.
First of all, I raid as DW fury, and since I'm prot right now on my armory, and for the weekend I'll be pvp spec, so I'll just give my gear: Illidari helm, choker of serrated blades, tier 6 shoulders, teron's cloak, sunwell BS chest piece (love it!), tier 6 bracers, grips of silent justice (trying to get immortal dusk but only two people who can craft it in server quit the game lawl), red belt of battle, endless rage legs (divine ret wont drop >.<), boots of obliteration (RoS is being a betch), Illidan ring, ZA timed event Ring, Shard of Contempt, DST, Badges xbow, Dragonstrike and Swiftsteel Bludgeon.
My problem is, my dps is getting me pissed right now because in Teron I get like 1870dps (was my best so far on him but pulled aggro and died, prolly would've made it to 1900+) and on Hyjal it was normal for me to hit around the 1700-1800dps (havent done hyjal in a while). Regardless, on Brutallus its hard for me to keep 1700dps. I bet having to be the demoshout guy now (which has given me some trouble to be honest, incorporating it in the rotation, even though I know it shouldnt) and having to use Solarian Sapphire cause arms warrior wont use it >.< dont help at all, but seeing as some people here are doing 2.6k+ dps I know there must be something wrong with how I'm dpsing.
We havent killed Brutallus yet, we're having troubles with tanks dying, so we havent been able to get too many 20% > test runs yet so no recklessness nor even heroisms normally, but still I think I should be doing better. My main concern and question would be:
What type of dps do you fury warriors are normally doing in that fight before heroism and executes?
Also, read about Shha (or is it Ssha? I'm sorry if I miss typed it) giving priority to heroic strikes rather than instants? Is that correct? And how many seconds before running out do you refresh rampage to help maximize performance? Cause I've had the problem that I tried to wait for around 5 seconds or less, and BT or WW or both come up around that time, or I go rage starved with a bad streak of misses, and I lose it =(
I'm on my way to get the left fist weapon from badges, since warglaives refuse to drop for us (Im going to get em most likely but 16 kills, no glaives) nor mounting vengeance and I used my badges for some of the tanking gear (I dps and tank both almost equally as needed be), but I doubt that only the offhand would make so much difference in dps.
Thanks in advance on any tip that you guys could share.
First of all, I raid as DW fury, and since I'm prot right now on my armory, and for the weekend I'll be pvp spec, so I'll just give my gear: Illidari helm, choker of serrated blades, tier 6 shoulders, teron's cloak, sunwell BS chest piece (love it!), tier 6 bracers, grips of silent justice (trying to get immortal dusk but only two people who can craft it in server quit the game lawl), red belt of battle, endless rage legs (divine ret wont drop >.<), boots of obliteration (RoS is being a betch), Illidan ring, ZA timed event Ring, Shard of Contempt, DST, Badges xbow, Dragonstrike and Swiftsteel Bludgeon.
My problem is, my dps is getting me pissed right now because in Teron I get like 1870dps (was my best so far on him but pulled aggro and died, prolly would've made it to 1900+) and on Hyjal it was normal for me to hit around the 1700-1800dps (havent done hyjal in a while). Regardless, on Brutallus its hard for me to keep 1700dps. I bet having to be the demoshout guy now (which has given me some trouble to be honest, incorporating it in the rotation, even though I know it shouldnt) and having to use Solarian Sapphire cause arms warrior wont use it >.< dont help at all, but seeing as some people here are doing 2.6k+ dps I know there must be something wrong with how I'm dpsing.
We havent killed Brutallus yet, we're having troubles with tanks dying, so we havent been able to get too many 20% > test runs yet so no recklessness nor even heroisms normally, but still I think I should be doing better. My main concern and question would be:
What type of dps do you fury warriors are normally doing in that fight before heroism and executes?
Also, read about Shha (or is it Ssha? I'm sorry if I miss typed it
) giving priority to heroic strikes rather than instants? Is that correct? And how many seconds before running out do you refresh rampage to help maximize performance? Cause I've had the problem that I tried to wait for around 5 seconds or less, and BT or WW or both come up around that time, or I go rage starved with a bad streak of misses, and I lose it =(I'm on my way to get the left fist weapon from badges, since warglaives refuse to drop for us (Im going to get em most likely but 16 kills, no glaives) nor mounting vengeance and I used my badges for some of the tanking gear (I dps and tank both almost equally as needed be), but I doubt that only the offhand would make so much difference in dps.
Thanks in advance on any tip that you guys could share.
Well first of all, waiting for things to drop is your first mistake. Warglaive, boots, divine ret, etc. just plan on them not dropping anytime soon. Get rid of the Dragonstrike. Pickup a 4 piece replacing your legs and gloves as a quick, easy fix for a little boost. Grab the Ninja leather badge boots or season4, which are slightly better than warboots when gemmed correctly. Talk to your melee leader and see if arms warrior can do demo/solarian since that is their job. Grab an S3 weapon at least, or if you cant PvP, the badge fist. Mounting Vengeance will also help you, if it does drop. I wouldnt recommend heroic priority at your gear level. Just stick to 6 second BT 9 second WW rotation. Try to refresh rampage at the end of its timer, or up to 10 seconds early if you need to lineup your rage/cooldowns in order. If your rage bank is high, spam the heroic strike button. Spam those buttons. You can get a bloodthirst with windfury attack power if times correctly. Chain haste pots. Go leatherworking for drums of battle. Use recklessness, BT/WW/HS with heroism, switch to fast/fast when reck is done and spam BT/execute.
If you are tanking part time, why would you be after a glaive against a rogue who might have more tenure or DPS in general, regardless of DKP or any system you use?
Regardless, these kinds of help posts in general do not belong on these forums, but I will help you out anyways.
If you are tanking part time, why would you be after a glaive against a rogue who might have more tenure or DPS in general, regardless of DKP or any system you use?
Regardless, these kinds of help posts in general do not belong on these forums, but I will help you out anyways.
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Originally Posted by dr_AllCOM3
That's right. There is no such thing as flurries hits or fast offhand eating charges.
You just take the offhand with the better stats. [Grip of Mannoroth] has haste and hit, both aren't that good. [Mounting Vengeance] has Ignore Armor and, even better, two sockets. |
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Originally Posted by Mardraum
What about for execute phase? fast / fast is still the best? Surely you aren't WWing during execute
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Originally Posted by landsoul
Well first of all, waiting for things to drop is your first mistake. Warglaive, boots, divine ret, etc. just plan on them not dropping anytime soon. Get rid of the Dragonstrike. Pickup a 4 piece replacing your legs and gloves as a quick, easy fix for a little boost. Grab the Ninja leather badge boots or season4, which are slightly better than warboots when gemmed correctly. Talk to your melee leader and see if arms warrior can do demo/solarian since that is their job. Grab an S3 weapon at least, or if you cant PvP, the badge fist. Mounting Vengeance will also help you, if it does drop. I wouldnt recommend heroic priority at your gear level. Just stick to 6 second BT 9 second WW rotation. Try to refresh rampage at the end of its timer, or up to 10 seconds early if you need to lineup your rage/cooldowns in order. If your rage bank is high, spam the heroic strike button. Spam those buttons. You can get a bloodthirst with windfury attack power if times correctly. Chain haste pots. Go leatherworking for drums of battle. Use recklessness, BT/WW/HS with heroism, switch to fast/fast when reck is done and spam BT/execute.
If you are tanking part time, why would you be after a glaive against a rogue who might have more tenure or DPS in general, regardless of DKP or any system you use? Regardless, these kinds of help posts in general do not belong on these forums, but I will help you out anyways. |
As for the glaives, I tank because we didnt had a second tank. I was tank with another warrior, a feral druid and 2 pally tanks, so I wasnt needed, went fury, both pallies stopped playing, now we got another pally and another warrior a few days ago so I wont have to tank anymore. And everyone knew I wouldnt tank stuff when I got the glaives.
Thanks a lot for the tips, I totally agree with you that waiting for things to drop is what has been kicking my behind the most =/
Thanks again.
Edited onPatch 2.4.2
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Originally Posted by landsoul
I wouldnt recommend heroic priority at your gear level. Just stick to 6 second BT 9 second WW rotation.
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Is it basically just switching the roles of Heroic Strike and your instants in your rotation and making Heroic Strike your biggest priority while using BT and WW when your rage spikes high enough for you to use them?
Last edited by Tankin : 06/29/08 at 2:44 PM.
Edited onPatch 2.4.2
Tankin (and maybe also landsoul), I think you have misunderstood the "heroic strike" priority cycle. It has little to do with gear level, a lot more to do with the type of fights that are common in SWP. You need a lot of incoming damage to maintain the rage generation needed to spam HS on every hit. Also, you will not quit doing BT/WWs just because you're doing HS, you do both in this situation. BT/WW will always be higher in damage/rage, there is no way you can get higher damage by not doing those attacks and only doing HS. This is true even with a fast MH.
In the logs it will seem like all you do is HS (having 40% damage from HS in the wws log is not uncommon), but this is due to how HS works. HS replaces a white hit, so 40% HS damage just means that you have taken a lot of the white damage and converted it to HS.
edit: I meant "little to do with gear level" as in "less to do with gear level than incoming damage".
In the logs it will seem like all you do is HS (having 40% damage from HS in the wws log is not uncommon), but this is due to how HS works. HS replaces a white hit, so 40% HS damage just means that you have taken a lot of the white damage and converted it to HS.
edit: I meant "little to do with gear level" as in "less to do with gear level than incoming damage".
Last edited by Gruntle : 07/01/08 at 9:01 AM.
If you keep referring to my wws/post, then I feel obliged to correct you.
My "heroic priority", as you can actually read in my own post has nothing to do with dropping WW/BT from rotation. It doesnt even really prioritize HS over them. What it means I forfeit the rage buffer people keep to make sure to be able BT/WW on cooldown. I st3ated that with good enough gear, the possibility of being rage starved and not be able to BT/WW is low, and possible delay of 0.5-1 sec in worst case, wont make as much difference in dps, as losing rage on few crits because you tried to stay at 60+ all time like some people advise. In short - if your BT/WW are on cooldown, you do HS, if they are not, they have priority. However I just dont stay "above xx rage", before i do heroics - I do them every time i can afford them.
My "heroic priority", as you can actually read in my own post has nothing to do with dropping WW/BT from rotation. It doesnt even really prioritize HS over them. What it means I forfeit the rage buffer people keep to make sure to be able BT/WW on cooldown. I st3ated that with good enough gear, the possibility of being rage starved and not be able to BT/WW is low, and possible delay of 0.5-1 sec in worst case, wont make as much difference in dps, as losing rage on few crits because you tried to stay at 60+ all time like some people advise. In short - if your BT/WW are on cooldown, you do HS, if they are not, they have priority. However I just dont stay "above xx rage", before i do heroics - I do them every time i can afford them.
Thanks for clearing that up for me. That's what I initially thought, but when I went looking on the WWS scoreboards, I just got more confused.
I realize now that I was forgetting to factor in execute phase and that explains the lower number of BTs/WWs than I was expecting based on the length of the fight assuming a perfect rotation. I just assumed it was because of such high heroic strike usage, but now I see why my logic was flawed.
I realize now that I was forgetting to factor in execute phase and that explains the lower number of BTs/WWs than I was expecting based on the length of the fight assuming a perfect rotation. I just assumed it was because of such high heroic strike usage, but now I see why my logic was flawed.
It so does too have to do with gear level. Incoming damage + insane rage generation = a lot of rage. You cant have it without lots of gear. You don't walk into Sunwell with partial BT gear and expect to have an unlimited rage supply even if you take that incoming damage, right? The implication is to spam heroic strike without having to worry about rage management, because once the BT and WW timer is available, all you have to do is literally wait less than a second and yuo will have the rage to use it. Keeping your hits per second high through the use of heroic strike, negating clances and misses in the main hand, to guarantee more procs and windfury, begin to shine. Keeping the rotation is sill optimal since it is so tight, but you have to worry less about having the rage for it because you HS too much.
Of course it has to do with gear level as well, but when running with slow-slow (or fast-fast too for that matter but less so) and trying to do HS on every white hit (+BT/WW cycle) I suspect that even end-game gear will not be enough. The rage from incoming damage will be necessary to get the rage generation smooth enough for HS to be usable at every swing. I think you need both great gear and incoming damage to make it work.
Well, I suppose that at some point with enough gear you can manage to generate enough rage with minimum incoming damage and your offhand doing all the work. May it be from excess of armor penetration that makes your offhand hit hard enough or a lot of haste (DTS, Warglaive proc, Flurry, haste, all that good stuff), that makes your offhand fast enough to generate enough rage to sustain your rotation + heroics on every hit, I'm sure when you're hitting 2.6k dps its posible.
For me, I'm still quite dependant on raid damage to be able to perform such feat. For instance, Brutallus, which as very low incoming damage encounter (on melee group) makes me stay around 1600-1700dps (without heroism/recklessness/execute phase since we have gotten him below 20% only a handful of times, and a lot of times missing key buffs like an enhancement shaman due to attendance... yeah...), getting rage starved quite often, making me break my rotation by a couple seconds, yet at Teron I can go all the way up to 1900 (and most likely pull aggro and get my face removed like last week).
Just like Landsoul says, my level of gear is just not at that point yet indeed, and that I could notice quite clearly last night doing Brutallus and see myself go rage starved and having to wait like 3 seconds waiting to BT, then having to skip that BT because I noticed my rampage has 2 seconds before it falls off (and I time my rampage have demoshout behind it, so I panic at the idea of demo falling off). That really hurts dps a lot.
What I do assume is that just like pre BC, warriors (fury specially) escalate really well with gear at end game, and the jump from 1.9kdps to 2.4k dps is a matter of only a couple months of gearing (last pieces of BT and getting some items in sunwell like the rest of tier 6). Warriors have an unusual synergy with their stats and how they affect rage generation that eventually, from the point I'm stuck in right now to the point Landsoul is, or Shha is, gear makes your rage generation be independant from raid damage, increasing dps exponentially, which is something that rogues for example dont get to enjoy. I could be wrong, of course. It might just a bold idea on my part. But it does look like from the point I am and forwards is when a dps warrior becomes the dps warrior they were in Naxx days that you couldnt get rid of the rage fast enough, getting the benefit of both the stat increase from the gear and the benefit of the rage generation increase as well.
For me, I'm still quite dependant on raid damage to be able to perform such feat. For instance, Brutallus, which as very low incoming damage encounter (on melee group) makes me stay around 1600-1700dps (without heroism/recklessness/execute phase since we have gotten him below 20% only a handful of times, and a lot of times missing key buffs like an enhancement shaman due to attendance... yeah...), getting rage starved quite often, making me break my rotation by a couple seconds, yet at Teron I can go all the way up to 1900 (and most likely pull aggro and get my face removed like last week).
Just like Landsoul says, my level of gear is just not at that point yet indeed, and that I could notice quite clearly last night doing Brutallus and see myself go rage starved and having to wait like 3 seconds waiting to BT, then having to skip that BT because I noticed my rampage has 2 seconds before it falls off (and I time my rampage have demoshout behind it, so I panic at the idea of demo falling off). That really hurts dps a lot.
What I do assume is that just like pre BC, warriors (fury specially) escalate really well with gear at end game, and the jump from 1.9kdps to 2.4k dps is a matter of only a couple months of gearing (last pieces of BT and getting some items in sunwell like the rest of tier 6). Warriors have an unusual synergy with their stats and how they affect rage generation that eventually, from the point I'm stuck in right now to the point Landsoul is, or Shha is, gear makes your rage generation be independant from raid damage, increasing dps exponentially, which is something that rogues for example dont get to enjoy. I could be wrong, of course. It might just a bold idea on my part. But it does look like from the point I am and forwards is when a dps warrior becomes the dps warrior they were in Naxx days that you couldnt get rid of the rage fast enough, getting the benefit of both the stat increase from the gear and the benefit of the rage generation increase as well.
And I cant wait until we hit lvl 80 and all our hit/crit gets gimped to the point where we cant generate enough rage to do decent DPS.
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Originally Posted by dr_AllCOM3
Surely you could check the armory and answer that by yourself.
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Originally Posted by landsoul
You can get a bloodthirst with windfury attack power if times correctly.
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Originally Posted by cainor
Could you please explain that a little bit more in detail? When do i have to hit to proc out the intended wf?
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Shed: Haha! Well, as long as they dont bring 360 cleaves again.
Quick question, does anyone know at what point Solarian Sapphire can be replaced? Assuming my standard dps group is rogue/rogue/ret/enhancement/Arms warrior (me). Short of digging through spread sheets and figuring out how much dps the 87.5 AP is worth and comparing it to the DPS i would gain from a proper second trinket (Like MotB, DST or something similar) has anyone worked this out already? Or am i doomed to be the battle shout bot until the end of time itself?
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Originally Posted by Calgar
Quick question, does anyone know at what point Solarian Sapphire can be replaced? Assuming my standard dps group is rogue/rogue/ret/enhancement/Arms warrior (me). Short of digging through spread sheets and figuring out how much dps the 87.5 AP is worth and comparing it to the DPS i would gain from a proper second trinket (Like MotB, DST or something similar) has anyone worked this out already? Or am i doomed to be the battle shout bot until the end of time itself?
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Originally Posted by dr_AllCOM3
That's right. There is no such thing as flurries hits or fast offhand eating charges.
You just take the offhand with the better stats. |
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Originally Posted by manglemangle
How can this be? After an initial flurry procs, if your swing times are slower you have more time during that given flurry to use instant attacks that can crit and refresh. It seems over the course of a fight this added time would increase flurry uptime by a few percentages. Am I way off base here?
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The real calculation looks more like: 1 - ((1-c)^{3,4} * (1-c)^X)) where X is the total special attacks per average flurry duration. X becomes larger as the weapons become slower, naturally increasing the flurry uptime percent.
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Originally Posted by DarthGreg
[Solarian's Sapphire] is unfortunately not replaceable by any trinket in-game from a standpoint of raid damage (as long as you're in the melee group).
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1) Count how many players really benefit from it in your group. For example a cat druid gets maybe half the benefit of it then a rogue. A hunter gets really low benefit etc. A tanking druid - well that depends if there are threat problems or not on the encounter. In general vs DsT (my dilemma), it seems that group needs 3.5 "points" for the trinket to be better - Counting Warriors/Rogues/Ret/Enh as 1 point and feral tanks/hunters as 0 (see a note above), and feral dps as 0.5. YOU count as a warrior of course. That means with most setups yea Solarian is best. However
2) Remember that you can switch trinkets. With our brutallus kills being well below 5 mins now, switching trinkets becomes much better option. Shout with Solarian then switch it off. This means you wont get the benefit of it, but your party will - for almost 50% of the time. With our group being : Feral Tank, Enh .War(me),Rogue .Rogue/Ret it means that the switch basically gives 3x0.5 = 1.5 "points". while keeping SS on gives 4. 2.5 Difference with this scheme is not enough to keep SS on. So I do switch it for the fight.
3) A lot of fights with ~1 min dps time like felmyst and to an extent Kalecgos, do favor DsT due to timing and hidden cooldowns.
4) on fights like M'uru, SS is unmatched.
5) Reverse Twins is even more then brutallus prefered to use switching - entire "hard" phase where your dps actually matters is covered by initial BS.
Thinking about it, I think Solarian's will be less replaceable in Wrath than it is now. Figuring that bshout will be raid wide, that means that it will apply to ever tank/hunter pet/melee DPS in the raid. Even figuring that there will be much better trinkets, providing 87AP to that many other raiders seems like it would outweigh another trinket on all but very short encounters.
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Originally Posted by Katrael
Thinking about it, I think Solarian's will be less replaceable in Wrath than it is now. Figuring that bshout will be raid wide, that means that it will apply to ever tank/hunter pet/melee DPS in the raid. Even figuring that there will be much better trinkets, providing 87AP to that many other raiders seems like it would outweigh another trinket on all but very short encounters.
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Well it will be more powerful with this scaling then its now, but Blizzard is known to nerf such stuff (like T2 bonuses for healers etc). So I'm pretty sure they will rended SS useless in WOTLK. Whether they will place other items affecting shouts is unknown - but they will probably be weaker if shouts are made global.
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Originally Posted by landsoul
This is correct. The flurry uptime model is a biproduct calculation of instants as well as white attacks. However, I think he might be thinking of the simplified version of the 1 - (1-c)^{3,4} which runs off white attacks only. In this case it does not matter what the speeds are of the weapons, unless you are trying to used synced speeds which can change the hits per flurry number more towards four and away from three.
The real calculation looks more like: 1 - ((1-c)^{3,4} * (1-c)^X)) where X is the total special attacks per average flurry duration. X becomes larger as the weapons become slower, naturally increasing the flurry uptime percent. |
So in the end you take the weapon with the better stats, unless they have the same. Then you take the slow one (PvP weapons), just because of that little whirlwind bonus.
Yea speed is largely irrelevant now. If there was a good MH with fast speed i would use it too. Actually fast Mh boost is even a bit more then oh (the vague "more smooth rage generation"). Heroic strikes with fast weapons are more effective (cheaper), which actually makes up for the 10-15 dps from lower WW.
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Originally Posted by Thikkor
I believe he means to BT right after a windfury proc (which is completely random). If I get this right, he's trying to get the attack power bonus from improved windfury totem to apply to the BT if you time it correctly, dealing quite a bit of extra damage.
Shed: Haha! Well, as long as they dont bring 360 cleaves again. |
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Originally Posted by cainor
Well, since Windfury is random, it would ruin the rotation if you wait for it to proc to hit in the Bloodthirst applied with the bonus wouldnt it?
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Every 5 MH swings will proc 1 WF. At high gear levels all (or nearly) will be heroic strikes, so the only off-chance of not proccing WF would be through a dodge. According to the law of averages, a 2.0 spd weapon will swing 3x inside of a single BT cd, meaning you will proc 3/5 of a WF. Time the BT just after and gain yourself a substantial boost to your BT value (furthered with 4pc t6).
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Originally Posted by Mjollnir
Additionally, 87AP at 80 will be rather inconsequential.
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Looking at what they've done with pre-BC items, Blizzard clearly doesn't want trinkets from old content to have any sort of relevancy. I have a feeling that the sapphire will get nerfed into the ground at some point during Wrath.
I started doing the same thing. I had originally read the "55 rage or more" deal, and took that as law, but after just doing bt raids I found it to be silly. So many times I can simply spam strike with bt/ww on cooldown, not really pay extremely careful attention to my rage, and still have no issues. This is generally because even if I have only 10 or so rage a second or two before bt/ww come off of cooldown, it only takes that amount of time to generate that rage. With Windfury and incoming damage generating rage is extremely simple for me, at least. I do tend to get threat capped a lot, but it's usually only on Teron (unless our pally is tanking, which is a rarity) and RoS from spamming more heroic strikes, but overall it's a dps increase straight up. We haven't hit up SWP yet, having finally polished off Illidan a couple weeks back, and due to other guild issues I haven't been able to test and see how it'll affect me in there, but I imagine it's going to be hardly different.
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Originally Posted by Amorpheus
Even if you can say that it's "only" 87AP, adding it to significantly more people will cancel out scaling. Remember that WOTLK will have somewhat more melee oriented raids due to Death Knights.
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Again, 87AP at 80 will either be insignificant [raid wide], the item will get nerfed, or door number 3, with whatever it may hold. Regardless, Blizzard will not let a 2nd tier BC trinket define an entire class/spec.
I bet we'll see a green quest reward that will provide almost the same buff.
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Originally Posted by shed
I bet we'll see a green quest reward that will provide almost the same buff.
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I'm more or less obsessive when it comes to min/maxing, so when I saw the Fury Imp. Slam variant build being discussed I had to jump on it. My gear level is a bit low, but when the RNG smiles on me I've seen what it can do. I like being different than other Fury Warriors, but I'm not convinced of the build's general practicality. It seems to be limited in application by movement-intensive fights, haste effects, and the fact that it is a strict DPS decrease during Execute phase.
The more time I spend running around and concentrating on the fight rather than my personal DPS cycle, the fewer Slams I can fit in and the lower my DPS goes relative to cookie-cutter Fury. Do those of you who have had success with this build use it only for specific fights, like Brutallus or Gorefiend, or have you found generalized success with it? If so, can you offer any tips?
Furthermore, do you alter your gear and/or consumables to favor other effects over haste? I use a DST (don't have a replacement for it), usually pack [Haste Potion]s, get Bloodlusts and Drums, and the combined effect of these often gets my swing-time down to 1.5s and below, making Slamming pretty silly. If these haste effects are prevalent enough, doesn't the point of bringing Imp. Slam diminish significantly?
Any advice is appreciated.
The more time I spend running around and concentrating on the fight rather than my personal DPS cycle, the fewer Slams I can fit in and the lower my DPS goes relative to cookie-cutter Fury. Do those of you who have had success with this build use it only for specific fights, like Brutallus or Gorefiend, or have you found generalized success with it? If so, can you offer any tips?
Furthermore, do you alter your gear and/or consumables to favor other effects over haste? I use a DST (don't have a replacement for it), usually pack [Haste Potion]s, get Bloodlusts and Drums, and the combined effect of these often gets my swing-time down to 1.5s and below, making Slamming pretty silly. If these haste effects are prevalent enough, doesn't the point of bringing Imp. Slam diminish significantly?
Any advice is appreciated.
The variant is feasable, but it is a huge pain in the butt for a slim margin. I tested it on servant mobs and I had a very small gain. I would highly doubt though I'd see this gain vs a boss due to glancing blows since I am having to use some HS rage for my slam macro. Maybe if I had more rage gen.... I havent tried it on Brut yet, for the reason we only killed him for the first time last week. I think I'm going to try it eventually though since I got some huge upgrades.
glaive question on landsoul's sheet
Hey i figured id ask my question here since it is a more active thread:
Landsoul(or anyone else),
What exactly is added when you select the 2 bonus from warglaives in raid options? The full 450 haste and the AP bonus to demons?? The haste proc is up like wut 15% of the time ---is that taking into effect when displaying the set bonus?? OR is The DPS gain shown including the full haste effect and the AP bonus refering to ONLY the 10 second proc duration?
Also does anyone know if you can swap the glaives out once the proc is triggered and and keep the buff??? PLZ?
thanks kindly,
Jev
Landsoul(or anyone else),
What exactly is added when you select the 2 bonus from warglaives in raid options? The full 450 haste and the AP bonus to demons?? The haste proc is up like wut 15% of the time ---is that taking into effect when displaying the set bonus?? OR is The DPS gain shown including the full haste effect and the AP bonus refering to ONLY the 10 second proc duration?
Also does anyone know if you can swap the glaives out once the proc is triggered and and keep the buff??? PLZ?
thanks kindly,
Jev
And I cant wait until we hit lvl 80 and all our hit/crit gets gimped to the point where we cant generate enough rage to do decent DPS.
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Originally Posted by dr_AllCOM3
Surely you could check the armory and answer that by yourself.
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Originally Posted by landsoul
You can get a bloodthirst with windfury attack power if times correctly.
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Originally Posted by cainor
Could you please explain that a little bit more in detail? When do i have to hit to proc out the intended wf?
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Shed: Haha! Well, as long as they dont bring 360 cleaves again.
Quick question, does anyone know at what point Solarian Sapphire can be replaced? Assuming my standard dps group is rogue/rogue/ret/enhancement/Arms warrior (me). Short of digging through spread sheets and figuring out how much dps the 87.5 AP is worth and comparing it to the DPS i would gain from a proper second trinket (Like MotB, DST or something similar) has anyone worked this out already? Or am i doomed to be the battle shout bot until the end of time itself?
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Originally Posted by Calgar
Quick question, does anyone know at what point Solarian Sapphire can be replaced? Assuming my standard dps group is rogue/rogue/ret/enhancement/Arms warrior (me). Short of digging through spread sheets and figuring out how much dps the 87.5 AP is worth and comparing it to the DPS i would gain from a proper second trinket (Like MotB, DST or something similar) has anyone worked this out already? Or am i doomed to be the battle shout bot until the end of time itself?
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Originally Posted by dr_AllCOM3
That's right. There is no such thing as flurries hits or fast offhand eating charges.
You just take the offhand with the better stats. |
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Originally Posted by manglemangle
How can this be? After an initial flurry procs, if your swing times are slower you have more time during that given flurry to use instant attacks that can crit and refresh. It seems over the course of a fight this added time would increase flurry uptime by a few percentages. Am I way off base here?
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The real calculation looks more like: 1 - ((1-c)^{3,4} * (1-c)^X)) where X is the total special attacks per average flurry duration. X becomes larger as the weapons become slower, naturally increasing the flurry uptime percent.
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Originally Posted by DarthGreg
[Solarian's Sapphire] is unfortunately not replaceable by any trinket in-game from a standpoint of raid damage (as long as you're in the melee group).
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1) Count how many players really benefit from it in your group. For example a cat druid gets maybe half the benefit of it then a rogue. A hunter gets really low benefit etc. A tanking druid - well that depends if there are threat problems or not on the encounter. In general vs DsT (my dilemma), it seems that group needs 3.5 "points" for the trinket to be better - Counting Warriors/Rogues/Ret/Enh as 1 point and feral tanks/hunters as 0 (see a note above), and feral dps as 0.5. YOU count as a warrior of course. That means with most setups yea Solarian is best. However
2) Remember that you can switch trinkets. With our brutallus kills being well below 5 mins now, switching trinkets becomes much better option. Shout with Solarian then switch it off. This means you wont get the benefit of it, but your party will - for almost 50% of the time. With our group being : Feral Tank, Enh .War(me),Rogue .Rogue/Ret it means that the switch basically gives 3x0.5 = 1.5 "points". while keeping SS on gives 4. 2.5 Difference with this scheme is not enough to keep SS on. So I do switch it for the fight.
3) A lot of fights with ~1 min dps time like felmyst and to an extent Kalecgos, do favor DsT due to timing and hidden cooldowns.
4) on fights like M'uru, SS is unmatched.
5) Reverse Twins is even more then brutallus prefered to use switching - entire "hard" phase where your dps actually matters is covered by initial BS.
Thinking about it, I think Solarian's will be less replaceable in Wrath than it is now. Figuring that bshout will be raid wide, that means that it will apply to ever tank/hunter pet/melee DPS in the raid. Even figuring that there will be much better trinkets, providing 87AP to that many other raiders seems like it would outweigh another trinket on all but very short encounters.
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Originally Posted by Katrael
Thinking about it, I think Solarian's will be less replaceable in Wrath than it is now. Figuring that bshout will be raid wide, that means that it will apply to ever tank/hunter pet/melee DPS in the raid. Even figuring that there will be much better trinkets, providing 87AP to that many other raiders seems like it would outweigh another trinket on all but very short encounters.
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Well it will be more powerful with this scaling then its now, but Blizzard is known to nerf such stuff (like T2 bonuses for healers etc). So I'm pretty sure they will rended SS useless in WOTLK. Whether they will place other items affecting shouts is unknown - but they will probably be weaker if shouts are made global.
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Originally Posted by landsoul
This is correct. The flurry uptime model is a biproduct calculation of instants as well as white attacks. However, I think he might be thinking of the simplified version of the 1 - (1-c)^{3,4} which runs off white attacks only. In this case it does not matter what the speeds are of the weapons, unless you are trying to used synced speeds which can change the hits per flurry number more towards four and away from three.
The real calculation looks more like: 1 - ((1-c)^{3,4} * (1-c)^X)) where X is the total special attacks per average flurry duration. X becomes larger as the weapons become slower, naturally increasing the flurry uptime percent. |
So in the end you take the weapon with the better stats, unless they have the same. Then you take the slow one (PvP weapons), just because of that little whirlwind bonus.
Yea speed is largely irrelevant now. If there was a good MH with fast speed i would use it too. Actually fast Mh boost is even a bit more then oh (the vague "more smooth rage generation"). Heroic strikes with fast weapons are more effective (cheaper), which actually makes up for the 10-15 dps from lower WW.
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Originally Posted by Thikkor
I believe he means to BT right after a windfury proc (which is completely random). If I get this right, he's trying to get the attack power bonus from improved windfury totem to apply to the BT if you time it correctly, dealing quite a bit of extra damage.
Shed: Haha! Well, as long as they dont bring 360 cleaves again. |
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Originally Posted by cainor
Well, since Windfury is random, it would ruin the rotation if you wait for it to proc to hit in the Bloodthirst applied with the bonus wouldnt it?
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Every 5 MH swings will proc 1 WF. At high gear levels all (or nearly) will be heroic strikes, so the only off-chance of not proccing WF would be through a dodge. According to the law of averages, a 2.0 spd weapon will swing 3x inside of a single BT cd, meaning you will proc 3/5 of a WF. Time the BT just after and gain yourself a substantial boost to your BT value (furthered with 4pc t6).
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Originally Posted by Mjollnir
Additionally, 87AP at 80 will be rather inconsequential.
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Looking at what they've done with pre-BC items, Blizzard clearly doesn't want trinkets from old content to have any sort of relevancy. I have a feeling that the sapphire will get nerfed into the ground at some point during Wrath.
I started doing the same thing. I had originally read the "55 rage or more" deal, and took that as law, but after just doing bt raids I found it to be silly. So many times I can simply spam strike with bt/ww on cooldown, not really pay extremely careful attention to my rage, and still have no issues. This is generally because even if I have only 10 or so rage a second or two before bt/ww come off of cooldown, it only takes that amount of time to generate that rage. With Windfury and incoming damage generating rage is extremely simple for me, at least. I do tend to get threat capped a lot, but it's usually only on Teron (unless our pally is tanking, which is a rarity) and RoS from spamming more heroic strikes, but overall it's a dps increase straight up. We haven't hit up SWP yet, having finally polished off Illidan a couple weeks back, and due to other guild issues I haven't been able to test and see how it'll affect me in there, but I imagine it's going to be hardly different.
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Originally Posted by Amorpheus
Even if you can say that it's "only" 87AP, adding it to significantly more people will cancel out scaling. Remember that WOTLK will have somewhat more melee oriented raids due to Death Knights.
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Again, 87AP at 80 will either be insignificant [raid wide], the item will get nerfed, or door number 3, with whatever it may hold. Regardless, Blizzard will not let a 2nd tier BC trinket define an entire class/spec.
I bet we'll see a green quest reward that will provide almost the same buff.
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Originally Posted by shed
I bet we'll see a green quest reward that will provide almost the same buff.
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I'm more or less obsessive when it comes to min/maxing, so when I saw the Fury Imp. Slam variant build being discussed I had to jump on it. My gear level is a bit low, but when the RNG smiles on me I've seen what it can do. I like being different than other Fury Warriors, but I'm not convinced of the build's general practicality. It seems to be limited in application by movement-intensive fights, haste effects, and the fact that it is a strict DPS decrease during Execute phase.
The more time I spend running around and concentrating on the fight rather than my personal DPS cycle, the fewer Slams I can fit in and the lower my DPS goes relative to cookie-cutter Fury. Do those of you who have had success with this build use it only for specific fights, like Brutallus or Gorefiend, or have you found generalized success with it? If so, can you offer any tips?
Furthermore, do you alter your gear and/or consumables to favor other effects over haste? I use a DST (don't have a replacement for it), usually pack [Haste Potion]s, get Bloodlusts and Drums, and the combined effect of these often gets my swing-time down to 1.5s and below, making Slamming pretty silly. If these haste effects are prevalent enough, doesn't the point of bringing Imp. Slam diminish significantly?
Any advice is appreciated.
The more time I spend running around and concentrating on the fight rather than my personal DPS cycle, the fewer Slams I can fit in and the lower my DPS goes relative to cookie-cutter Fury. Do those of you who have had success with this build use it only for specific fights, like Brutallus or Gorefiend, or have you found generalized success with it? If so, can you offer any tips?
Furthermore, do you alter your gear and/or consumables to favor other effects over haste? I use a DST (don't have a replacement for it), usually pack [Haste Potion]s, get Bloodlusts and Drums, and the combined effect of these often gets my swing-time down to 1.5s and below, making Slamming pretty silly. If these haste effects are prevalent enough, doesn't the point of bringing Imp. Slam diminish significantly?
Any advice is appreciated.
The variant is feasable, but it is a huge pain in the butt for a slim margin. I tested it on servant mobs and I had a very small gain. I would highly doubt though I'd see this gain vs a boss due to glancing blows since I am having to use some HS rage for my slam macro. Maybe if I had more rage gen.... I havent tried it on Brut yet, for the reason we only killed him for the first time last week. I think I'm going to try it eventually though since I got some huge upgrades.
glaive question on landsoul's sheet
Hey i figured id ask my question here since it is a more active thread:
Landsoul(or anyone else),
What exactly is added when you select the 2 bonus from warglaives in raid options? The full 450 haste and the AP bonus to demons?? The haste proc is up like wut 15% of the time ---is that taking into effect when displaying the set bonus?? OR is The DPS gain shown including the full haste effect and the AP bonus refering to ONLY the 10 second proc duration?
Also does anyone know if you can swap the glaives out once the proc is triggered and and keep the buff??? PLZ?
thanks kindly,
Jev
Landsoul(or anyone else),
What exactly is added when you select the 2 bonus from warglaives in raid options? The full 450 haste and the AP bonus to demons?? The haste proc is up like wut 15% of the time ---is that taking into effect when displaying the set bonus?? OR is The DPS gain shown including the full haste effect and the AP bonus refering to ONLY the 10 second proc duration?
Also does anyone know if you can swap the glaives out once the proc is triggered and and keep the buff??? PLZ?
thanks kindly,
Jev
Edited onPatch 2.4.3
@cainor:
This would anyway be nice, I think. And it would probably lower your threat a bit. However, I'm wondering if your Prot Warrior or Feral starts the fight, I think it would be useful for the Feral Druid to start tanking Brutallus first, because his threat is, atleast at the start of the fight, better than the threat of the Prot Warrior, therefore you can maybe go all-out without threat problems.
@gab: Landsoul changed the way flurry charges are consumed. Misses also consume flurry charges now, so a higher crit and hit chance rises your flurry uptime, and therefore Midnight Chestguard would be > S4, because your hitrating is too low without Midnight Chestguard, I guess.
edit: Haste pot is stronger than Insane Str. because you get more attacks out with Recklessness. Anyway the haste from Haste Potion brings more stats than Insane Str, so this is obvious. I only would use Insane Str. Potions, when Haste won't do me anything good, for example as MS-Warrior who wants to Slam after every white hit and is limited to 2,7-2,9 Speed swings because of the GCD. In any other case Haste Potions would be clearly better.
| What do you think of re-gemming all possible to Strengthgems? So get a little less crit, therefore higher average hits and less aggro? |
@gab: Landsoul changed the way flurry charges are consumed. Misses also consume flurry charges now, so a higher crit and hit chance rises your flurry uptime, and therefore Midnight Chestguard would be > S4, because your hitrating is too low without Midnight Chestguard, I guess.
edit: Haste pot is stronger than Insane Str. because you get more attacks out with Recklessness. Anyway the haste from Haste Potion brings more stats than Insane Str, so this is obvious. I only would use Insane Str. Potions, when Haste won't do me anything good, for example as MS-Warrior who wants to Slam after every white hit and is limited to 2,7-2,9 Speed swings because of the GCD. In any other case Haste Potions would be clearly better.
Last edited by Kaan : 08/13/08 at 9:55 PM.
Yeah of course Haste Pots will push my hits during recklessness but if there is already a heroism up while i pop recklesness with insane strength i dunno >.<
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Originally Posted by cainor
Thanks for your answer,
I thought the same. The problem ist that up to 80% Health of Brutalus I am as good as threatcapped. So i can put in just a few Heroic Strikes. What do you think of re-gemming all possible to Strengthgems? So get a little less crit, therefore higher average hits and less aggro? |
Either your tanks are pretty bad or they just have no support, i tanked Brut for my own several times and with a good choice of gear, you can easily reach aps values around 1500-2000 with support.
Ok a first intermediate result. I regemmed as much as i could to just strength-gems without losing socketbonus.
We had the luck that we could throw in a 2nd Enhancer into the tankgroup.
We just did BT yesterday and all i can say is that i was around ~2650dps @ 7% on Teron when i got ghosted.
With that much more threat from the tank i could spam HS from the beginning. (without hastepotions by the way)
I had 1 BL and 2 Drummer. Seems there was little more possible but the ghost didnt let me try it. It was a progress for sure, since my max dps on Teron was 2500dps before.
Im looking forward to Brutallus and cant wait to see if i can throw the max there.
Thank for your opinions and tips for now. :-)
We had the luck that we could throw in a 2nd Enhancer into the tankgroup.
We just did BT yesterday and all i can say is that i was around ~2650dps @ 7% on Teron when i got ghosted.
With that much more threat from the tank i could spam HS from the beginning. (without hastepotions by the way)
I had 1 BL and 2 Drummer. Seems there was little more possible but the ghost didnt let me try it. It was a progress for sure, since my max dps on Teron was 2500dps before.
Im looking forward to Brutallus and cant wait to see if i can throw the max there.
Thank for your opinions and tips for now. :-)
Hey guys, my guild is working currently in T6 and I am trying to do my best to contribute DPS wise to our raids I am going through these threads and seeing very large dps numbers in fights from DPS warriors but wondering myself why I am not getting some of these numbers. I am not exactly the greatest theorycrafter so I'm not even sure what a reasonable number to be at with my current gear is, so I was wondering if I could get a little help. Below is a WWS from our most recent Hyjal raid and my armory:
WWS
Armory
My basic idea when I'm dpsing seems to be the accepted theory of keeping BT and WW on cooldown and to HS when rage is above 55 or so.
I am looking for any tidbit of advice on this and have a pretty thick skin so feel free to dig in if appropriate :P, but I would appreciate constructive criticism when possible. Thanks in advance.
WWS
Armory
My basic idea when I'm dpsing seems to be the accepted theory of keeping BT and WW on cooldown and to HS when rage is above 55 or so.
I am looking for any tidbit of advice on this and have a pretty thick skin so feel free to dig in if appropriate :P, but I would appreciate constructive criticism when possible. Thanks in advance.
Slom, one of the most important upgrades (besides getting epic gems) would be [Angelista's Revenge] as a replacement for your SSC ring.
Other than that, the most important piece of advice besides a clean rotation is - get as much clean dps time as possible. I.e. always keep up BS and Rampage, always have enough rage for BT/WW - and, don't move that often (give your healers something to do.) You might also want to consider replacing your boot enchant with Cat's Swiftness or Agility.
Other than that, the most important piece of advice besides a clean rotation is - get as much clean dps time as possible. I.e. always keep up BS and Rampage, always have enough rage for BT/WW - and, don't move that often (give your healers something to do.) You might also want to consider replacing your boot enchant with Cat's Swiftness or Agility.
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Originally Posted by gab
Yeah of course Haste Pots will push my hits during recklessness but if there is already a heroism up while i pop recklesness with insane strength i dunno >.<
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And Insane Strength Potions don't push Execute-DPS (or only small through more rage), but Haste Pots do.And another tipp, although this may be frowned upon by some ... The following makro will give you something close to a perfect rotation:
/castsequence Bloodthirst,Whirlwind,Rampage,Bloodthirst,Battle Shout,Whirlwind,Bloodthirst,Demoralizing Shout,Bloodthirst,Whirlwind,Bloodthirst,Whirlwind,Bloodthirst,Rampage,Bloodthirst,Whi rlwind,Demoralizing Shout,Bloodthirst,Whirlwind,Bloodthirst
Basically, what it does:
+ optimal cycle
+ refreshes Rampage with 0 seconds and 3 seconds left
+ refreshes demo shout with 0 seconds and 3 seconds left
+ refreshes battle shout
Where are the problems?
- demo shouts can be resisted!
- rampage only works after a crit - the makro will STOP if you haven't crit in the last few seconds
- it wastes 10 rage per minute because it rebuffs Battle Shout once a minute (because of a limitation to 255 characters this has to be done)
- it has no sequence reset - which means it will always start where you left off ...
/castsequence Bloodthirst,Whirlwind,Rampage,Bloodthirst,Battle Shout,Whirlwind,Bloodthirst,Demoralizing Shout,Bloodthirst,Whirlwind,Bloodthirst,Whirlwind,Bloodthirst,Rampage,Bloodthirst,Whi rlwind,Demoralizing Shout,Bloodthirst,Whirlwind,Bloodthirst
Basically, what it does:
+ optimal cycle
+ refreshes Rampage with 0 seconds and 3 seconds left
+ refreshes demo shout with 0 seconds and 3 seconds left
+ refreshes battle shout
Where are the problems?
- demo shouts can be resisted!
- rampage only works after a crit - the makro will STOP if you haven't crit in the last few seconds
- it wastes 10 rage per minute because it rebuffs Battle Shout once a minute (because of a limitation to 255 characters this has to be done)
- it has no sequence reset - which means it will always start where you left off ...
Hey Bronwyn,
Actually interested in adjusting your macro some (and i have no idea how i'd do it correctly)
We always have another prot warrior in raid 'sides the MT so there will always be someone else to demo shout.
is there anyway in your macro to add a sequence reset now without the demo shouts in there since there's less than 255 chars? i'm guessing the reset will be beneficial if the macro stops cause of rampage not working? and maybe to also lengthen the time of battle shout refreshes as to not waste rage (of 2nd importance)?
i want to try using this macro and comparing to my normal clicking to see what the difference will be.
Thanks!
Actually interested in adjusting your macro some (and i have no idea how i'd do it correctly)
We always have another prot warrior in raid 'sides the MT so there will always be someone else to demo shout.
is there anyway in your macro to add a sequence reset now without the demo shouts in there since there's less than 255 chars? i'm guessing the reset will be beneficial if the macro stops cause of rampage not working? and maybe to also lengthen the time of battle shout refreshes as to not waste rage (of 2nd importance)?
i want to try using this macro and comparing to my normal clicking to see what the difference will be.
Thanks!
I think it's a lot safer to use a simpler macro that only contains the BT's and WW's. Using a long sequence without a reset is just asking for trouble.
/castsequence reset=18/combat Bloodthirst, Whirlwind, Bloodthirst, Whirlwind, Bloodthirst
You have plenty of free gcd's to do the shouts and rampage, I can't really see the need of including them in a macro.
/castsequence reset=18/combat Bloodthirst, Whirlwind, Bloodthirst, Whirlwind, Bloodthirst
You have plenty of free gcd's to do the shouts and rampage, I can't really see the need of including them in a macro.
Edited onPatch 2.4.3
@cainor:
This would anyway be nice, I think. And it would probably lower your threat a bit. However, I'm wondering if your Prot Warrior or Feral starts the fight, I think it would be useful for the Feral Druid to start tanking Brutallus first, because his threat is, atleast at the start of the fight, better than the threat of the Prot Warrior, therefore you can maybe go all-out without threat problems.
@gab: Landsoul changed the way flurry charges are consumed. Misses also consume flurry charges now, so a higher crit and hit chance rises your flurry uptime, and therefore Midnight Chestguard would be > S4, because your hitrating is too low without Midnight Chestguard, I guess.
edit: Haste pot is stronger than Insane Str. because you get more attacks out with Recklessness. Anyway the haste from Haste Potion brings more stats than Insane Str, so this is obvious. I only would use Insane Str. Potions, when Haste won't do me anything good, for example as MS-Warrior who wants to Slam after every white hit and is limited to 2,7-2,9 Speed swings because of the GCD. In any other case Haste Potions would be clearly better.
| What do you think of re-gemming all possible to Strengthgems? So get a little less crit, therefore higher average hits and less aggro? |
@gab: Landsoul changed the way flurry charges are consumed. Misses also consume flurry charges now, so a higher crit and hit chance rises your flurry uptime, and therefore Midnight Chestguard would be > S4, because your hitrating is too low without Midnight Chestguard, I guess.
edit: Haste pot is stronger than Insane Str. because you get more attacks out with Recklessness. Anyway the haste from Haste Potion brings more stats than Insane Str, so this is obvious. I only would use Insane Str. Potions, when Haste won't do me anything good, for example as MS-Warrior who wants to Slam after every white hit and is limited to 2,7-2,9 Speed swings because of the GCD. In any other case Haste Potions would be clearly better.
Last edited by Kaan : 08/13/08 at 9:55 PM.
Yeah of course Haste Pots will push my hits during recklessness but if there is already a heroism up while i pop recklesness with insane strength i dunno >.<
|
Originally Posted by cainor
Thanks for your answer,
I thought the same. The problem ist that up to 80% Health of Brutalus I am as good as threatcapped. So i can put in just a few Heroic Strikes. What do you think of re-gemming all possible to Strengthgems? So get a little less crit, therefore higher average hits and less aggro? |
Either your tanks are pretty bad or they just have no support, i tanked Brut for my own several times and with a good choice of gear, you can easily reach aps values around 1500-2000 with support.
Ok a first intermediate result. I regemmed as much as i could to just strength-gems without losing socketbonus.
We had the luck that we could throw in a 2nd Enhancer into the tankgroup.
We just did BT yesterday and all i can say is that i was around ~2650dps @ 7% on Teron when i got ghosted.
With that much more threat from the tank i could spam HS from the beginning. (without hastepotions by the way)
I had 1 BL and 2 Drummer. Seems there was little more possible but the ghost didnt let me try it. It was a progress for sure, since my max dps on Teron was 2500dps before.
Im looking forward to Brutallus and cant wait to see if i can throw the max there.
Thank for your opinions and tips for now. :-)
We had the luck that we could throw in a 2nd Enhancer into the tankgroup.
We just did BT yesterday and all i can say is that i was around ~2650dps @ 7% on Teron when i got ghosted.
With that much more threat from the tank i could spam HS from the beginning. (without hastepotions by the way)
I had 1 BL and 2 Drummer. Seems there was little more possible but the ghost didnt let me try it. It was a progress for sure, since my max dps on Teron was 2500dps before.
Im looking forward to Brutallus and cant wait to see if i can throw the max there.
Thank for your opinions and tips for now. :-)
Hey guys, my guild is working currently in T6 and I am trying to do my best to contribute DPS wise to our raids I am going through these threads and seeing very large dps numbers in fights from DPS warriors but wondering myself why I am not getting some of these numbers. I am not exactly the greatest theorycrafter so I'm not even sure what a reasonable number to be at with my current gear is, so I was wondering if I could get a little help. Below is a WWS from our most recent Hyjal raid and my armory:
WWS
Armory
My basic idea when I'm dpsing seems to be the accepted theory of keeping BT and WW on cooldown and to HS when rage is above 55 or so.
I am looking for any tidbit of advice on this and have a pretty thick skin so feel free to dig in if appropriate :P, but I would appreciate constructive criticism when possible. Thanks in advance.
WWS
Armory
My basic idea when I'm dpsing seems to be the accepted theory of keeping BT and WW on cooldown and to HS when rage is above 55 or so.
I am looking for any tidbit of advice on this and have a pretty thick skin so feel free to dig in if appropriate :P, but I would appreciate constructive criticism when possible. Thanks in advance.
Slom, one of the most important upgrades (besides getting epic gems) would be [Angelista's Revenge] as a replacement for your SSC ring.
Other than that, the most important piece of advice besides a clean rotation is - get as much clean dps time as possible. I.e. always keep up BS and Rampage, always have enough rage for BT/WW - and, don't move that often (give your healers something to do.) You might also want to consider replacing your boot enchant with Cat's Swiftness or Agility.
Other than that, the most important piece of advice besides a clean rotation is - get as much clean dps time as possible. I.e. always keep up BS and Rampage, always have enough rage for BT/WW - and, don't move that often (give your healers something to do.) You might also want to consider replacing your boot enchant with Cat's Swiftness or Agility.
|
Originally Posted by gab
Yeah of course Haste Pots will push my hits during recklessness but if there is already a heroism up while i pop recklesness with insane strength i dunno >.<
|
And Insane Strength Potions don't push Execute-DPS (or only small through more rage), but Haste Pots do.And another tipp, although this may be frowned upon by some ... The following makro will give you something close to a perfect rotation:
/castsequence Bloodthirst,Whirlwind,Rampage,Bloodthirst,Battle Shout,Whirlwind,Bloodthirst,Demoralizing Shout,Bloodthirst,Whirlwind,Bloodthirst,Whirlwind,Bloodthirst,Rampage,Bloodthirst,Whi rlwind,Demoralizing Shout,Bloodthirst,Whirlwind,Bloodthirst
Basically, what it does:
+ optimal cycle
+ refreshes Rampage with 0 seconds and 3 seconds left
+ refreshes demo shout with 0 seconds and 3 seconds left
+ refreshes battle shout
Where are the problems?
- demo shouts can be resisted!
- rampage only works after a crit - the makro will STOP if you haven't crit in the last few seconds
- it wastes 10 rage per minute because it rebuffs Battle Shout once a minute (because of a limitation to 255 characters this has to be done)
- it has no sequence reset - which means it will always start where you left off ...
/castsequence Bloodthirst,Whirlwind,Rampage,Bloodthirst,Battle Shout,Whirlwind,Bloodthirst,Demoralizing Shout,Bloodthirst,Whirlwind,Bloodthirst,Whirlwind,Bloodthirst,Rampage,Bloodthirst,Whi rlwind,Demoralizing Shout,Bloodthirst,Whirlwind,Bloodthirst
Basically, what it does:
+ optimal cycle
+ refreshes Rampage with 0 seconds and 3 seconds left
+ refreshes demo shout with 0 seconds and 3 seconds left
+ refreshes battle shout
Where are the problems?
- demo shouts can be resisted!
- rampage only works after a crit - the makro will STOP if you haven't crit in the last few seconds
- it wastes 10 rage per minute because it rebuffs Battle Shout once a minute (because of a limitation to 255 characters this has to be done)
- it has no sequence reset - which means it will always start where you left off ...
Hey Bronwyn,
Actually interested in adjusting your macro some (and i have no idea how i'd do it correctly)
We always have another prot warrior in raid 'sides the MT so there will always be someone else to demo shout.
is there anyway in your macro to add a sequence reset now without the demo shouts in there since there's less than 255 chars? i'm guessing the reset will be beneficial if the macro stops cause of rampage not working? and maybe to also lengthen the time of battle shout refreshes as to not waste rage (of 2nd importance)?
i want to try using this macro and comparing to my normal clicking to see what the difference will be.
Thanks!
Actually interested in adjusting your macro some (and i have no idea how i'd do it correctly)
We always have another prot warrior in raid 'sides the MT so there will always be someone else to demo shout.
is there anyway in your macro to add a sequence reset now without the demo shouts in there since there's less than 255 chars? i'm guessing the reset will be beneficial if the macro stops cause of rampage not working? and maybe to also lengthen the time of battle shout refreshes as to not waste rage (of 2nd importance)?
i want to try using this macro and comparing to my normal clicking to see what the difference will be.
Thanks!
I think it's a lot safer to use a simpler macro that only contains the BT's and WW's. Using a long sequence without a reset is just asking for trouble.
/castsequence reset=18/combat Bloodthirst, Whirlwind, Bloodthirst, Whirlwind, Bloodthirst
You have plenty of free gcd's to do the shouts and rampage, I can't really see the need of including them in a macro.
/castsequence reset=18/combat Bloodthirst, Whirlwind, Bloodthirst, Whirlwind, Bloodthirst
You have plenty of free gcd's to do the shouts and rampage, I can't really see the need of including them in a macro.
|
Originally Posted by Grayson Carlyle
Did you not read the first line of the post?
|
Except the important part though...
Which means you must refresh over and over and over again until the numbers stop changing. Makes some changes, then refresh and refresh and refresh and refresh until the numbers stop changing again.
| UNTIL THE NUMBERS HAVE CONVERGED |
This is not the spreadsheet thread; shut the fuck up, all of you.
I've got 2 Questions:
WF can only procc on landing White Hits, but can WF procc miss or be dodged/parried?
Same Question for Sword Specialization
SS can only procc on landing Hits, but can SS procc miss or be dodged/parried?
SS could be tested with a Rogue with 100% avoidance and a Warrior without Expertise/Hit equiped. Overpower cant be dodged but can procc SS -> if white hit of SS lands -> SS proccs always land when it proccs.
WF can only procc on landing White Hits, but can WF procc miss or be dodged/parried?
Same Question for Sword Specialization
SS can only procc on landing Hits, but can SS procc miss or be dodged/parried?
SS could be tested with a Rogue with 100% avoidance and a Warrior without Expertise/Hit equiped. Overpower cant be dodged but can procc SS -> if white hit of SS lands -> SS proccs always land when it proccs.
|
Originally Posted by Glory
I've got 2 Questions:
WF can only procc on landing White Hits, but can WF procc miss or be dodged/parried? Same Question for Sword Specialization SS can only procc on landing Hits, but can SS procc miss or be dodged/parried? |
Ok i have a question about Macros
i want a Macro that priorize BT/WW/Execute.
As stated here DMG per Rage
WW and BT do more dmg per rage if you have enough Rage. But you should do an attack on every GCD, and not wait for the Rage for a BT/WW. Because an Attack on every GCD increases PPM and Flurry uptime and the lower your Rage is if you can perform an Execute, the better is Dmg per Rage. A 10 Rage Execute -> 92.5 DMG per Rage 12 Rage Execute -> 77 DMG per Rage ... (First one with T6 Bonus and 1 point in imp Execute, Second only with T6 Bonus).
Would a Macro like this work? And how can i make it that there wont be Error Messages on my Screen because of this Marco?
/cast Bloodthirst
/cast Whirlwind
/cast Execute
i want a Macro that priorize BT/WW/Execute.
As stated here DMG per Rage
WW and BT do more dmg per rage if you have enough Rage. But you should do an attack on every GCD, and not wait for the Rage for a BT/WW. Because an Attack on every GCD increases PPM and Flurry uptime and the lower your Rage is if you can perform an Execute, the better is Dmg per Rage. A 10 Rage Execute -> 92.5 DMG per Rage 12 Rage Execute -> 77 DMG per Rage ... (First one with T6 Bonus and 1 point in imp Execute, Second only with T6 Bonus).
Would a Macro like this work? And how can i make it that there wont be Error Messages on my Screen because of this Marco?
/cast Bloodthirst
/cast Whirlwind
/cast Execute
|
Originally Posted by Liar
Yes. The procs are treated as if they were normal white hits so everything that applies to your white hits applies to them as well.
|
|
Originally Posted by Voxx
This is somewhat incorrect, they are triggered by white hits, count as white hits for the purpose of rage generation, but (I could be slightly mistaken in terms of glancing blows here) are subject to the hit table of special attacks. If this were not the case, windfury procs would have a much higher miss rate than they currently do.
|
|
Originally Posted by Grayson Carlyle
Did you not read the first line of the post?
|
Except the important part though...
Which means you must refresh over and over and over again until the numbers stop changing. Makes some changes, then refresh and refresh and refresh and refresh until the numbers stop changing again.
| UNTIL THE NUMBERS HAVE CONVERGED |
This is not the spreadsheet thread; shut the fuck up, all of you.
I've got 2 Questions:
WF can only procc on landing White Hits, but can WF procc miss or be dodged/parried?
Same Question for Sword Specialization
SS can only procc on landing Hits, but can SS procc miss or be dodged/parried?
SS could be tested with a Rogue with 100% avoidance and a Warrior without Expertise/Hit equiped. Overpower cant be dodged but can procc SS -> if white hit of SS lands -> SS proccs always land when it proccs.
WF can only procc on landing White Hits, but can WF procc miss or be dodged/parried?
Same Question for Sword Specialization
SS can only procc on landing Hits, but can SS procc miss or be dodged/parried?
SS could be tested with a Rogue with 100% avoidance and a Warrior without Expertise/Hit equiped. Overpower cant be dodged but can procc SS -> if white hit of SS lands -> SS proccs always land when it proccs.
|
Originally Posted by Glory
I've got 2 Questions:
WF can only procc on landing White Hits, but can WF procc miss or be dodged/parried? Same Question for Sword Specialization SS can only procc on landing Hits, but can SS procc miss or be dodged/parried? |
Ok i have a question about Macros
i want a Macro that priorize BT/WW/Execute.
As stated here DMG per Rage
WW and BT do more dmg per rage if you have enough Rage. But you should do an attack on every GCD, and not wait for the Rage for a BT/WW. Because an Attack on every GCD increases PPM and Flurry uptime and the lower your Rage is if you can perform an Execute, the better is Dmg per Rage. A 10 Rage Execute -> 92.5 DMG per Rage 12 Rage Execute -> 77 DMG per Rage ... (First one with T6 Bonus and 1 point in imp Execute, Second only with T6 Bonus).
Would a Macro like this work? And how can i make it that there wont be Error Messages on my Screen because of this Marco?
/cast Bloodthirst
/cast Whirlwind
/cast Execute
i want a Macro that priorize BT/WW/Execute.
As stated here DMG per Rage
WW and BT do more dmg per rage if you have enough Rage. But you should do an attack on every GCD, and not wait for the Rage for a BT/WW. Because an Attack on every GCD increases PPM and Flurry uptime and the lower your Rage is if you can perform an Execute, the better is Dmg per Rage. A 10 Rage Execute -> 92.5 DMG per Rage 12 Rage Execute -> 77 DMG per Rage ... (First one with T6 Bonus and 1 point in imp Execute, Second only with T6 Bonus).
Would a Macro like this work? And how can i make it that there wont be Error Messages on my Screen because of this Marco?
/cast Bloodthirst
/cast Whirlwind
/cast Execute
|
Originally Posted by Liar
Yes. The procs are treated as if they were normal white hits so everything that applies to your white hits applies to them as well.
|
|
Originally Posted by Voxx
This is somewhat incorrect, they are triggered by white hits, count as white hits for the purpose of rage generation, but (I could be slightly mistaken in terms of glancing blows here) are subject to the hit table of special attacks. If this were not the case, windfury procs would have a much higher miss rate than they currently do.
|
I get those values (same two weapons, ungemmed, BT+WW+HS@65, numbers are just for scale, all at Lv80):
Apolyon 1792
Felspine 1774
S4 1771
BoH 1755
Cataclysm 1747
S3 1736
Torch 1727
So any combination of Apo/Felspine/S4 is quite good, BoH is nice.
Weapons are not synced if you start meleeing in melee range.
Apolyon 1792
Felspine 1774
S4 1771
BoH 1755
Cataclysm 1747
S3 1736
Torch 1727
So any combination of Apo/Felspine/S4 is quite good, BoH is nice.
Weapons are not synced if you start meleeing in melee range.
You're not able to dual wield Felspine, as it's a polearm.
|
Originally Posted by Gink
You're not able to dual wield Felspine, as it's a polearm.
|
Does the human racial expertise bonus change anything?
I've got 2 Jin'Rohks in the bank, but also have enough badges for a pair of BoH. I've been uncertain which of the two will perform higher dps, factoring in the extra 5 expertise I get from wielding swords as a human.
I've got 2 Jin'Rohks in the bank, but also have enough badges for a pair of BoH. I've been uncertain which of the two will perform higher dps, factoring in the extra 5 expertise I get from wielding swords as a human.
Human expertise is nerfed to 3 Expertise now. I expect 2xBoH would be quite a bit better, the stats on those things are pretty amazing.
I've been testing on the PTR with a 53/8/0 build in order to see what approach will maximize my dps. What kills me is that slam no longer clips autoattacks. That means logically that there is no reason to stick to a rotation.
So far it seems that staying in zerker and using this "hierarchical" rotation:
1) MS when up
2) Next WW when up
3) Execute lit then use it if 1 and 2 are still on CD
4) Slam if 1 and 2 are not about to come off CD and you have over 45 rage or are about to autoattack with over 15 rage
5) HS if MS, WW are on CD execute is not lit and you have almost full rage
It's not really a "slam rotation" like before 3.0. It's much more reactive and difficult to pull off. Has anyone else experienced this "hierarchical" approach as the best dps in 3.0 as 53/8/0, or am I missing the boat here? It seemed that staying in battle for OP was terrible. Stance dancing for OP was horrible too.
So far it seems that staying in zerker and using this "hierarchical" rotation:
1) MS when up
2) Next WW when up
3) Execute lit then use it if 1 and 2 are still on CD
4) Slam if 1 and 2 are not about to come off CD and you have over 45 rage or are about to autoattack with over 15 rage
5) HS if MS, WW are on CD execute is not lit and you have almost full rage
It's not really a "slam rotation" like before 3.0. It's much more reactive and difficult to pull off. Has anyone else experienced this "hierarchical" approach as the best dps in 3.0 as 53/8/0, or am I missing the boat here? It seemed that staying in battle for OP was terrible. Stance dancing for OP was horrible too.
I'm even wondering if a
Macro might be useful as a rage dump. Endless rage is giving me ridiculous amounts of rage. With haste gear in a raid, it almost seems like slam is just a way to stall the next autoattack .5 seconds until your abilities come off CD or light up. HS is a good way to prevent that auto attack from generating wasted rage.
#showtooltip slam /cast slam /cast heroic strike
On the PTR does the anticipatory activation of Heroic Strike become deactivated when you use Slam? I would suspect that the suspension of the auto-swing would have that effect.
The efficiency of a half-second swing time Slam has more to do with your combat situation. Certainly the suspension of the auto-swing is much more beneficial as the fifteen rage used may now be replenished with the subsequent white swing. To use that macro you must be assured that you will benefit from the exchange of your white swing for the Heroic Strike and that for another auto-swing's duration you will have sufficient rage to apply any buffs or activate any ability procs that may occur.
The efficiency of a half-second swing time Slam has more to do with your combat situation. Certainly the suspension of the auto-swing is much more beneficial as the fifteen rage used may now be replenished with the subsequent white swing. To use that macro you must be assured that you will benefit from the exchange of your white swing for the Heroic Strike and that for another auto-swing's duration you will have sufficient rage to apply any buffs or activate any ability procs that may occur.
I get those values (same two weapons, ungemmed, BT+WW+HS@65, numbers are just for scale, all at Lv80):
Apolyon 1792
Felspine 1774
S4 1771
BoH 1755
Cataclysm 1747
S3 1736
Torch 1727
So any combination of Apo/Felspine/S4 is quite good, BoH is nice.
Weapons are not synced if you start meleeing in melee range.
Apolyon 1792
Felspine 1774
S4 1771
BoH 1755
Cataclysm 1747
S3 1736
Torch 1727
So any combination of Apo/Felspine/S4 is quite good, BoH is nice.
Weapons are not synced if you start meleeing in melee range.
You're not able to dual wield Felspine, as it's a polearm.
|
Originally Posted by Gink
You're not able to dual wield Felspine, as it's a polearm.
|
Does the human racial expertise bonus change anything?
I've got 2 Jin'Rohks in the bank, but also have enough badges for a pair of BoH. I've been uncertain which of the two will perform higher dps, factoring in the extra 5 expertise I get from wielding swords as a human.
I've got 2 Jin'Rohks in the bank, but also have enough badges for a pair of BoH. I've been uncertain which of the two will perform higher dps, factoring in the extra 5 expertise I get from wielding swords as a human.
Human expertise is nerfed to 3 Expertise now. I expect 2xBoH would be quite a bit better, the stats on those things are pretty amazing.
I've been testing on the PTR with a 53/8/0 build in order to see what approach will maximize my dps. What kills me is that slam no longer clips autoattacks. That means logically that there is no reason to stick to a rotation.
So far it seems that staying in zerker and using this "hierarchical" rotation:
1) MS when up
2) Next WW when up
3) Execute lit then use it if 1 and 2 are still on CD
4) Slam if 1 and 2 are not about to come off CD and you have over 45 rage or are about to autoattack with over 15 rage
5) HS if MS, WW are on CD execute is not lit and you have almost full rage
It's not really a "slam rotation" like before 3.0. It's much more reactive and difficult to pull off. Has anyone else experienced this "hierarchical" approach as the best dps in 3.0 as 53/8/0, or am I missing the boat here? It seemed that staying in battle for OP was terrible. Stance dancing for OP was horrible too.
So far it seems that staying in zerker and using this "hierarchical" rotation:
1) MS when up
2) Next WW when up
3) Execute lit then use it if 1 and 2 are still on CD
4) Slam if 1 and 2 are not about to come off CD and you have over 45 rage or are about to autoattack with over 15 rage
5) HS if MS, WW are on CD execute is not lit and you have almost full rage
It's not really a "slam rotation" like before 3.0. It's much more reactive and difficult to pull off. Has anyone else experienced this "hierarchical" approach as the best dps in 3.0 as 53/8/0, or am I missing the boat here? It seemed that staying in battle for OP was terrible. Stance dancing for OP was horrible too.
I'm even wondering if a
Macro might be useful as a rage dump. Endless rage is giving me ridiculous amounts of rage. With haste gear in a raid, it almost seems like slam is just a way to stall the next autoattack .5 seconds until your abilities come off CD or light up. HS is a good way to prevent that auto attack from generating wasted rage.
#showtooltip slam /cast slam /cast heroic strike
On the PTR does the anticipatory activation of Heroic Strike become deactivated when you use Slam? I would suspect that the suspension of the auto-swing would have that effect.
The efficiency of a half-second swing time Slam has more to do with your combat situation. Certainly the suspension of the auto-swing is much more beneficial as the fifteen rage used may now be replenished with the subsequent white swing. To use that macro you must be assured that you will benefit from the exchange of your white swing for the Heroic Strike and that for another auto-swing's duration you will have sufficient rage to apply any buffs or activate any ability procs that may occur.
The efficiency of a half-second swing time Slam has more to do with your combat situation. Certainly the suspension of the auto-swing is much more beneficial as the fifteen rage used may now be replenished with the subsequent white swing. To use that macro you must be assured that you will benefit from the exchange of your white swing for the Heroic Strike and that for another auto-swing's duration you will have sufficient rage to apply any buffs or activate any ability procs that may occur.
The special attack hit cap is an important number only because of how it affects the value of hit rating. If you have less than the required amount of hit rating to cap specials, then gaining one more point of hit rating affects both your white damage as well as your yellow damage. All of your damage benefits from it at this point. However, once you reach the special hit cap, gaining one more point of hit rating only affects your white damage. Because of this it becomes a very poor stat compared to other stats like strength and crit, which affect all of your damage, not just white damage. This doesn't mean that hit rating does absolutely nothing for your dps after you've capped specials, all it means is that once you reach that magic number, you should focus on boosting other stats that will provide a greater increase to your damage output than hit rating would.
Rotation
I'm a dual glaive warrior and have gone 15/46/0 and 1H Fury.
Just curious as to what people are seeing as the optimum rotation.
Just curious as to what people are seeing as the optimum rotation.
Bloodthirst, WW, (instant slam), heroic strike. Something like that.
Yeah... now i just need an addon to watch for bloodsurge... keep missing it.
Most updated scrolling combat text addons already include a "Slam!" message when your Bloodthirst crits. I suppose you could change it to whatever font size you want so you don't miss it. 
IMO Bloodsurge with two 1h weps is a poor value for 3 points.
Even if you time everything perfect and have like 50% crit, you are looking at 5 slams a minute. No bueno.
Even if you time everything perfect and have like 50% crit, you are looking at 5 slams a minute. No bueno.
I have a question pertaining to my warrior alt and I'm sorry if this has already been brought up. I'm Currently Titan's Grip using a Lionheart Executioner in my Main hand and a Rising Tide in my offhand. I've been monitering my miss count and I'm seeing very few of them with 180 hit and 3/3 Precision. I'm wondering if there is any evidence of the Hit penalty not factoring in if you are not duel wielding 2handers? Unfortunatley I do not have any WWS logs to link.
I am using the mod tellmewhen to put up an icon when bloodsurge procs, its easy to lose in sct sometimes.
"IMO Bloodsurge with two 1h weps is a poor value for 3 points." What are you putting those points into then? execute?
"IMO Bloodsurge with two 1h weps is a poor value for 3 points." What are you putting those points into then? execute?
Hey Guys a little advice if you could please.
I have tried TG and got the following results with Just BS buff.
I have been speaking with a few warriors on there thoughts and a few questions remain unanswered.
Im thinking of going back to DW 1 handers and currently have both fists of brutality, he blade of infamy and 2 x dragonstrikes at my disposal. I was using the blade of infamy and the fist of brutality.
1 of the warriors i spoke to has gone heavy 53/8/0 with the glaives and gone swordspec. but he said he feels axe spec way over powers this now. So i was thinking of making the 2 wicked edges and trying them. But then i got to thinking +15% ignore armor of the mace spec must also be strong?
And then my illussions get swayed again when i see posts of 15/46 ?
Im a little torn here guys can you help?
I have tried TG and got the following results with Just BS buff.
I have been speaking with a few warriors on there thoughts and a few questions remain unanswered.
Im thinking of going back to DW 1 handers and currently have both fists of brutality, he blade of infamy and 2 x dragonstrikes at my disposal. I was using the blade of infamy and the fist of brutality.
1 of the warriors i spoke to has gone heavy 53/8/0 with the glaives and gone swordspec. but he said he feels axe spec way over powers this now. So i was thinking of making the 2 wicked edges and trying them. But then i got to thinking +15% ignore armor of the mace spec must also be strong?
And then my illussions get swayed again when i see posts of 15/46 ?
Im a little torn here guys can you help?
I have been hearing a lot of (mis)information about how deep wounds lately. As far as I understand it used to simply reset the duration if you crit again with your deep wounds already on the target without doing anything to the damage of the ticks right? Right now there seems to be a lot of confusion about how it is currently working. I have heard that it rolls now and I have heard that it simply acts how ignite does currently.
Ex. 1 Rolling behavior indicates receiving above and beyond the additional 48% bleed damage from crits like:
(I am assuming DW ticks 3 times over 6 seconds)
Crit: 1000
DW: 160
DW: 160
Crit: 1000
DW: 320
DW: 320
Crit: 1000
DW: 480
DW: 480
Noncrit: 417
DW: 480
DW fades.
Total DW Expected: 1440
Actual DW Damage (assuming DW actually "rolls"): 2400
Ex. 2 What you would expect if DW is working like the current version of ignite:
Crit: 1000
DW: 160
DW: 160
Crit: 1000
DW: 213
DW: 213
Crit: 1000
DW: 231
DW: 231
Noncrit: 417
DW: 231
Expected Damage: 1440
Actual Damage: 1439
So basically I am curious as to whether DW is using the arguably bugged "rolling" behavior or if it is simply stacking as ignites currently do for mages (indicated in second example).
Ex. 1 Rolling behavior indicates receiving above and beyond the additional 48% bleed damage from crits like:
(I am assuming DW ticks 3 times over 6 seconds)
Crit: 1000
DW: 160
DW: 160
Crit: 1000
DW: 320
DW: 320
Crit: 1000
DW: 480
DW: 480
Noncrit: 417
DW: 480
DW fades.
Total DW Expected: 1440
Actual DW Damage (assuming DW actually "rolls"): 2400
Ex. 2 What you would expect if DW is working like the current version of ignite:
Crit: 1000
DW: 160
DW: 160
Crit: 1000
DW: 213
DW: 213
Crit: 1000
DW: 231
DW: 231
Noncrit: 417
DW: 231
Expected Damage: 1440
Actual Damage: 1439
So basically I am curious as to whether DW is using the arguably bugged "rolling" behavior or if it is simply stacking as ignites currently do for mages (indicated in second example).
Edited onPatch 2.4.3
2 BT Geared Warriors 1 Two Hander DPS Test
Purpose: To post some imperical data comparing zerker stance to battle stance.
Introduction: Two BT geared warriors giving some DPS data with particular rotations for other warriors to compare to. Most of the data I have seen posted is from fuly Sunwell geared raid buffed warriors. This post is intended to be used for further theory crafting.
Analysis
Warrior Test 1
Doogster
Spec: 53/8/0 - AP(unbuffed): 2106 - Hit: 169 - Crit: 40.86 (43.86 in zerker) - Expertise: 15
Battle stance
Rotation: Rend>MS>SD>OP>BS if nothing else slam
DPS 1833
*Included one BS use
**Did not include the use of recklessness
Zerker stance
Rotation priority to: MS>SD>BS>WW>Heroic strike
DPS1596
*Included one BS, recklessness, no slam
From this test it appears that making use of rend, OP, Slam in Battle stance is greater then the extra 3% crit in Zerker stance by 1833-1596=237DPS not factoring using recklessness.
Warrior Test 2
Nnev
Spec: 53/8/0 - AP(unbuffed): 2184 - Hit: 181 - Crit: 35.38 (38.38 in zerker) - Expertise: 15
Battle Stance
Rotation: Same as above
DPS1491
Zerker Stance
Rotation:Same as above
Image of Zerker Stance - Photobucket - Video and Image Hosting1389
From this test it appears that making use of rend, OP, Slam in Battle stance is greater then the extra 3% crit in Zerker stance by 1491-1389=102DPS not factoring using recklessness.
Conclusion
1) DPSing in battle stance results in more DPS then in zerker stance.
2) Approximately 1% crit = 70.7DPS all things being equal as calculated below:
Doogster battle stance crit 40.86 - Nnev battle stance crit 35.38 = 5.48% crit
Doogster battle stance DPS 1833 - Nnev battle stance DPS 1491 = 342DPS
342DPS/5.48%crit = 62.41DPS
Doogster DPS in battle stance 1833 - Doogster DPS in Zerker Stance 1596 = 237
Difference in stances = 3% to crit
237DPS/3 = 79DPS
(79+62.4)/2 = 70.7DPS
3) Crit 40.48; when I take off red belt of battle 24crit with two +10 crit gems my crit reduces by 44crit rating to 38.86% for a difference of 2%.
44crit rating/2% crit
22crit = 1% to crit
***All data was gathered starting with no rage; Used bloodrage to pop Battle Shout then began rotation.
****I will update this post if/when Nnev gets the BOH Axe (unlikely going to happen).
Introduction: Two BT geared warriors giving some DPS data with particular rotations for other warriors to compare to. Most of the data I have seen posted is from fuly Sunwell geared raid buffed warriors. This post is intended to be used for further theory crafting.
Analysis
Warrior Test 1
Doogster
Spec: 53/8/0 - AP(unbuffed): 2106 - Hit: 169 - Crit: 40.86 (43.86 in zerker) - Expertise: 15
Battle stance
Rotation: Rend>MS>SD>OP>BS if nothing else slam
DPS 1833
*Included one BS use
**Did not include the use of recklessness
Zerker stance
Rotation priority to: MS>SD>BS>WW>Heroic strike
DPS1596
*Included one BS, recklessness, no slam
From this test it appears that making use of rend, OP, Slam in Battle stance is greater then the extra 3% crit in Zerker stance by 1833-1596=237DPS not factoring using recklessness.
Warrior Test 2
Nnev
Spec: 53/8/0 - AP(unbuffed): 2184 - Hit: 181 - Crit: 35.38 (38.38 in zerker) - Expertise: 15
Battle Stance
Rotation: Same as above
DPS1491
Zerker Stance
Rotation:Same as above
Image of Zerker Stance - Photobucket - Video and Image Hosting1389
From this test it appears that making use of rend, OP, Slam in Battle stance is greater then the extra 3% crit in Zerker stance by 1491-1389=102DPS not factoring using recklessness.
Conclusion
1) DPSing in battle stance results in more DPS then in zerker stance.
2) Approximately 1% crit = 70.7DPS all things being equal as calculated below:
Doogster battle stance crit 40.86 - Nnev battle stance crit 35.38 = 5.48% crit
Doogster battle stance DPS 1833 - Nnev battle stance DPS 1491 = 342DPS
342DPS/5.48%crit = 62.41DPS
Doogster DPS in battle stance 1833 - Doogster DPS in Zerker Stance 1596 = 237
Difference in stances = 3% to crit
237DPS/3 = 79DPS
(79+62.4)/2 = 70.7DPS
3) Crit 40.48; when I take off red belt of battle 24crit with two +10 crit gems my crit reduces by 44crit rating to 38.86% for a difference of 2%.
44crit rating/2% crit
22crit = 1% to crit
***All data was gathered starting with no rage; Used bloodrage to pop Battle Shout then began rotation.
****I will update this post if/when Nnev gets the BOH Axe (unlikely going to happen).
Last edited by thechamp : 10/19/08 at 5:05 AM.
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Originally Posted by teenbcn
I did more slams than bloodsurges procs, this was done because I wanted to try it out, see how it turned to be as it was my first raid post 3.0.2 and more of a test than anything else. But no, 21slams in that recount doesn't mean 21 bloodsurges.
Hopefully the WoW Meter Online link will work as soon as the data can be backed up again, then you can check more throughfully. |
My question is that, if WOW Meter is correct, you're putting out 3433 TPS yet both your tanks are only at 2167/2029 TPS. How'd you manage that with no disc priests (pain supression) but 4 paladins (hand of salvation)? Was 4 hands really that much threat reduction?
Or were the tanks at like 3.5k - 4k TPS when tanking, but much less when not tanking and WOW Meter shows the average? 'cause now that I think about it, I can put out 2k TPS easily in ZA... A T6 tank with full raid buffs and Brut's infinate rage should easily double that xD
So I noticed while tanking headless horseman as 53/8 spec last night that MS and shield slam do not share a CD. I'm trying to figure out if there is any way to gain a DPS boost from this, considering my shield slams were critting for around 2.5k in my dps gear. Weapon swap triggers GCD, correct? So you essentially use 3 GCDs if you swap out to shield slam, or is that innaccurate?
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Originally Posted by Akston
I have been hearing a lot of (mis)information about how deep wounds lately. As far as I understand it used to simply reset the duration if you crit again with your deep wounds already on the target without doing anything to the damage of the ticks right? Right now there seems to be a lot of confusion about how it is currently working. I have heard that it rolls now and I have heard that it simply acts how ignite does currently.
Ex. 1 Rolling behavior indicates receiving above and beyond the additional 48% bleed damage from crits like: (I am assuming DW ticks 3 times over 6 seconds) Crit: 1000 DW: 160 DW: 160 Crit: 1000 DW: 320 DW: 320 Crit: 1000 DW: 480 DW: 480 Noncrit: 417 DW: 480 DW fades. Total DW Expected: 1440 Actual DW Damage (assuming DW actually "rolls"): 2400 Ex. 2 What you would expect if DW is working like the current version of ignite: Crit: 1000 DW: 160 DW: 160 Crit: 1000 DW: 213 DW: 213 Crit: 1000 DW: 231 DW: 231 Noncrit: 417 DW: 231 Expected Damage: 1440 Actual Damage: 1439 So basically I am curious as to whether DW is using the arguably bugged "rolling" behavior or if it is simply stacking as ignites currently do for mages (indicated in second example). |
a) DW tick every second not 2
b) Even then a warrior using all haste buffs and fast OH often crits MORE often then every second.
c) Every crit refreshes duration of deep wound
d) Crits more often then 1 sec apart cause deep wounds to not tick AT ALL, but "accumulate" damage in "DW buffer"
e) When you stop critting for moer then a sec the damage is "released"
Assuming you crit exactly 1.0 sec (or slightly more so DW ticks just before the next crit) apart with 1000 dmg MH range the ticks will be
0.0 CRIT (480 DW "buffer") ->DW tick of 80 (DW "buffer" down to 400)
1.0 CRIT (+480 DW "buffer"=880) ->DW tick of 147 (DW "buffer" down to 733)
2.0 CRIT (+480 DW "buffer"=1213) ->DW tick of 202 (DW "buffer" down to 1011)
....
....
....
(lets assume after 60 sec it comes to DW cap - in real math it never reaches it but its good enough approximation)
60.0 CRIT (+480 DW "buffer"=2880) ->DW tick of 480 (DW "buffer" down to 2400)
then it 'caps out' at 480/sec ticks
Thats exactly how ignite rolls, and its damage you can observe in some testing environment
However the huge ticks corm from different mechanism. Lets assume now the crits are still 1.0 sec apart but now its just 0.0001 sec BEFORE DW ticks
0.0 CRIT (480 DW "buffer") ->DW do NOT tick, because duration is refreshed
1.0 CRIT (960 DW "buffer") ->DW do NOT tick, because duration is refreshed
2.0 CRIT (1440 DW "buffer") ->DW do NOT tick, because duration is refreshed
...
...
60. CRIT(60x480=28800 DW "buffer") ->DW do NOT tick, because duration is refreshed
so far DW damage is ZERO. But if we stop attacking or stop critting that often, all the buffer is released THEN in 6 sec burst
61. NO CRIT - DW TICK OF 4800 (24000 dmg remaining in buffer)
62. NO CRIT - DW TICK OF 4800 (19200 dmg remaining in buffer)
63. NO CRIT - DW TICK OF 4800 (14400 dmg remaining in buffer)
64. NO CRIT - DW TICK OF 4800 (9600 dmg remaining in buffer)
65. NO CRIT - DW TICK OF 4800 (4800 dmg remaining in buffer)
66. NO CRIT - DW TICK OF 4800 (0 dmg remaining in buffer)
The damage from DW is about same if you add it up in 1st case remember they tick for 66 sec total in 2nd for 6. But the average tick damage will be 11 times higher in the 2nd - they will be just less spaced apart.
Notice how the DW recount/WWS with the huge ticks , have WAY less ticks then seconds in fight from 2.5-4 times less actually.
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Originally Posted by Shha
DW rolls perfectly fine using 2nd way - the reason why you see the 10k ticks on some WWS is totally different and not really applicable to mages.
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Originally Posted by Shha
a) DW tick every second not 2
b) Even then a warrior using all haste buffs and fast OH often crits MORE often then every second. c) Every crit refreshes duration of deep wound d) Crits more often then 1 sec apart cause deep wounds to not tick AT ALL, but "accumulate" damage in "DW buffer" e) When you stop critting for moer then a sec the damage is "released" |
Anyway what i wanted to know is if the huge ticks were a result of bugged ("rolling") behavior or simply the result of finally working like ignite does currently (minus ignites wierd issues with instant attacks) and it appears that it is just working they way it should and not causing any "extra" damage from DW the way true rolling does. I just got curious because everyone was using the term rolling and it seems no one actually understands exactly what rolling implies, I.E. pre-bc fire mages in naxx getting more than the listed extra damage on crits from ignite. A better terms for DW's current behavior would be stacking.
Edited onPatch 2.4.3
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Originally Posted by thechamp
...
To post some imperical data comparing zerker stance to battle stance. ... |
That said, I'm not sure this is much of a concern, and pretty sure it has been explored in other threads. Still, if you do want to re-examine something yourself, that's cool. Just try to do it a bit more scientifically if you want the results to be relevant to the rest of us. As a final note, it is useful to post the expanded dps percentages with recount (click your name) instead of just a flat number.
Last edited by Alaron : 10/19/08 at 5:19 PM.
With such emphasis on hit with TG how does expertise look? While putting together my TG set I came up with [Brooch of Deftness] beating out all but Endless Nightmares and Hard Khorium for that slot. Expertise should be just as valuable as hit should it not?
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Originally Posted by Machinator
With such emphasis on hit with TG how does expertise look? While putting together my TG set I came up with [Brooch of Deftness] beating out all but Endless Nightmares and Hard Khorium for that slot. Expertise should be just as valuable as hit should it not?
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Hey guys,
My highest DPS on tonights Kil'Jaeden attempts was 4070 DPS.
My highest deep wounds tick was 11,682.
Sadly I died twice on our actual kill so I'm sure I could have pushed higher numbers
Some links:
Armory
WebStats for my Character
Talent Spec (Armory hasn't updated since I tried 15/46/0)
I loved trying this spec.
With Incite maxed out and [Glyph of Heroic Strike] feeding it, you can seriously slam out those Heroic Strike crits to stack your deep wounds!
When patch went live, I started to stack crit, changed all my gems from 10 str to Crit/Str etc.
I changed my off-hand to a fast weapon and put mongoose on it.
I stacked haste items to try and keep critting before the initial deep wound ticks would go off, and that's about it!
Sadly I'm no number cruncher, but after being asked a few times on my realm what I did, i decided to post here!
Hope this helps people find a spec they enjoy
My highest DPS on tonights Kil'Jaeden attempts was 4070 DPS.
My highest deep wounds tick was 11,682.
Sadly I died twice on our actual kill so I'm sure I could have pushed higher numbers
Some links:
Armory
WebStats for my Character
Talent Spec (Armory hasn't updated since I tried 15/46/0)
I loved trying this spec.
With Incite maxed out and [Glyph of Heroic Strike] feeding it, you can seriously slam out those Heroic Strike crits to stack your deep wounds!
When patch went live, I started to stack crit, changed all my gems from 10 str to Crit/Str etc.
I changed my off-hand to a fast weapon and put mongoose on it.
I stacked haste items to try and keep critting before the initial deep wound ticks would go off, and that's about it!
Sadly I'm no number cruncher, but after being asked a few times on my realm what I did, i decided to post here!
Hope this helps people find a spec they enjoy
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Originally Posted by Kaytiecakes
Hey guys,
My highest DPS on tonights Kil'Jaeden attempts was 4070 DPS. My highest deep wounds tick was 11,682. Sadly I died twice on our actual kill so I'm sure I could have pushed higher numbers Some links: Armory WebStats for my Character Talent Spec (Armory hasn't updated since I tried 15/46/0) I loved trying this spec. With Incite maxed out and [Glyph of Heroic Strike] feeding it, you can seriously slam out those Heroic Strike crits to stack your deep wounds! When patch went live, I started to stack crit, changed all my gems from 10 str to Crit/Str etc. I changed my off-hand to a fast weapon and put mongoose on it. I stacked haste items to try and keep critting before the initial deep wound ticks would go off, and that's about it! Sadly I'm no number cruncher, but after being asked a few times on my realm what I did, i decided to post here! Hope this helps people find a spec they enjoy |
I'm going to be perfectly honest and just say that I assumed it would increase my chances of getting a critical hit in before the first tick of deep wounds would go off, which is 2 seconds after the critical hit lands.
I sure wish I was a mathematician to help you out, but it just felt like it made sense
I don't have any numbers or anything to back it up and I don't have any WWS logs to really go by, so I can't really compare SLOW/SLOW to SLOW/FAST personally and I'm sorry about that. The idea behind it was purely to prolong the chances of that first deep wounds tick going off and sneaking in a few Heroic Strike, Bloodthirst or Whirlwind crits before the first deep wound would tick.
After next weeks reset I'm going to record more logs and try to compare my melee hits landing and their crit chances and see the difference using a Slow/Slow combo. But I'm sure someone can answer your question much better than I can with Super hard maths!
I sure wish I was a mathematician to help you out, but it just felt like it made sense
I don't have any numbers or anything to back it up and I don't have any WWS logs to really go by, so I can't really compare SLOW/SLOW to SLOW/FAST personally and I'm sorry about that. The idea behind it was purely to prolong the chances of that first deep wounds tick going off and sneaking in a few Heroic Strike, Bloodthirst or Whirlwind crits before the first deep wound would tick.
After next weeks reset I'm going to record more logs and try to compare my melee hits landing and their crit chances and see the difference using a Slow/Slow combo. But I'm sure someone can answer your question much better than I can with Super hard maths!
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Originally Posted by Thoragar
Or were the tanks at like 3.5k - 4k TPS when tanking, but much less when not tanking and WOW Meter shows the average? 'cause now that I think about it, I can put out 2k TPS easily in ZA... A T6 tank with full raid buffs and Brut's infinate rage should easily double that xD
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Katiecakes, that's a pretty nice spec you got there. I tried out full fury, deep wounds fury, incite fury, but never mixed deep wounds with incite and rest fury. Quite a nice idea.
While I dont have math at hand, I dont even think its needed in order to tell you that you're correct on your assumtion that having a fast off hand will grant you more crits between the 2 seconds before DW ticks. Hell, it would be interesting to see how two fast weapons behave with DW, although the added damage to DW might not make it worth it in the end, it would still be interesting to see. Next time I run BT I'll test it out with Kalecgos' sword and Swiftsteel Bludgeon (1.5 speed weapons with haste into them ftw) with your spec to see what type of dps I get. Would be kinda sketch of me to be "trying" stuff when working on Kil'jaedan hehe.
That spec of yours with dual warglaives should be insanely good tho, so if someone has both glaives, might be a good idea to try it out. With the ammount of haste you can generate (specially if you have a DST) and that insanely fast offhand, those DW should be pilling up like crazy.
Regardless, I bet that the best spec most likely is 53/8 (if not 53/0/8 for incite) with two (I dare say) fast one handed axes and just go to town with heroic strikes and executes and make those DW tick like crazy. If someone has access to 2 S3 or S4 one handed axes, the fast ones, and can do some tests on that, it would be great, even if most people wont be able to play along with such a spec since the only fast one handed axe that comes to mind is The Brutalizer... lol and its a tad late to actually farm those axes in arenas right now. Maybe at level 80. 53/10/8 DWing fast axes and execute/heroic strike spam would be quite interesting to check out.
While I dont have math at hand, I dont even think its needed in order to tell you that you're correct on your assumtion that having a fast off hand will grant you more crits between the 2 seconds before DW ticks. Hell, it would be interesting to see how two fast weapons behave with DW, although the added damage to DW might not make it worth it in the end, it would still be interesting to see. Next time I run BT I'll test it out with Kalecgos' sword and Swiftsteel Bludgeon (1.5 speed weapons with haste into them ftw) with your spec to see what type of dps I get. Would be kinda sketch of me to be "trying" stuff when working on Kil'jaedan hehe.
That spec of yours with dual warglaives should be insanely good tho, so if someone has both glaives, might be a good idea to try it out. With the ammount of haste you can generate (specially if you have a DST) and that insanely fast offhand, those DW should be pilling up like crazy.
Regardless, I bet that the best spec most likely is 53/8 (if not 53/0/8 for incite) with two (I dare say) fast one handed axes and just go to town with heroic strikes and executes and make those DW tick like crazy. If someone has access to 2 S3 or S4 one handed axes, the fast ones, and can do some tests on that, it would be great, even if most people wont be able to play along with such a spec since the only fast one handed axe that comes to mind is The Brutalizer... lol and its a tad late to actually farm those axes in arenas right now. Maybe at level 80. 53/10/8 DWing fast axes and execute/heroic strike spam would be quite interesting to check out.
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Originally Posted by Thikkor
Regardless, I bet that the best spec most likely is 53/8 (if not 53/0/8 for incite) with two (I dare say) fast one handed axes and just go to town with heroic strikes and executes and make those DW tick like crazy. If someone has access to 2 S3 or S4 one handed axes, the fast ones, and can do some tests on that, it would be great, even if most people wont be able to play along with such a spec since the only fast one handed axe that comes to mind is The Brutalizer... lol and its a tad late to actually farm those axes in arenas right now. Maybe at level 80. 53/10/8 DWing fast axes and execute/heroic strike spam would be quite interesting to check out.
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About MH speed a fast one has various drawbacks. Lower deep wounds base damage, lower MS and WW damage, Sudden death procs with lesst than 1.5 sec difference are slightly wasted. I'm not sure a few more sudden death procs and more crits to stack Deep Wounds offset the drawbacks.
Old philosophy of slow MH for higher damage specials and now higher deep wounds base damage and fast OH for more hit procs and crits is the way that makes sense.
i was asking about that spec a few pages back. On our first KJ kill yesterday i was using a traditional Deep Wounds / Bloodthirst, Bloodsurge no TG spec with Glaives and was averaging 3000-3400 dps with haste breaths etc (Hard to validate, will post a wws later) I'll go back with DW, Incite and 3/5 IBS on Tuesday and give it a whirl. For the record i was getting 8k Deep wounds ticks. Woah.
The special attack hit cap is an important number only because of how it affects the value of hit rating. If you have less than the required amount of hit rating to cap specials, then gaining one more point of hit rating affects both your white damage as well as your yellow damage. All of your damage benefits from it at this point. However, once you reach the special hit cap, gaining one more point of hit rating only affects your white damage. Because of this it becomes a very poor stat compared to other stats like strength and crit, which affect all of your damage, not just white damage. This doesn't mean that hit rating does absolutely nothing for your dps after you've capped specials, all it means is that once you reach that magic number, you should focus on boosting other stats that will provide a greater increase to your damage output than hit rating would.
Rotation
I'm a dual glaive warrior and have gone 15/46/0 and 1H Fury.
Just curious as to what people are seeing as the optimum rotation.
Just curious as to what people are seeing as the optimum rotation.
Bloodthirst, WW, (instant slam), heroic strike. Something like that.
Yeah... now i just need an addon to watch for bloodsurge... keep missing it.
Most updated scrolling combat text addons already include a "Slam!" message when your Bloodthirst crits. I suppose you could change it to whatever font size you want so you don't miss it.
IMO Bloodsurge with two 1h weps is a poor value for 3 points.
Even if you time everything perfect and have like 50% crit, you are looking at 5 slams a minute. No bueno.
Even if you time everything perfect and have like 50% crit, you are looking at 5 slams a minute. No bueno.
I have a question pertaining to my warrior alt and I'm sorry if this has already been brought up. I'm Currently Titan's Grip using a Lionheart Executioner in my Main hand and a Rising Tide in my offhand. I've been monitering my miss count and I'm seeing very few of them with 180 hit and 3/3 Precision. I'm wondering if there is any evidence of the Hit penalty not factoring in if you are not duel wielding 2handers? Unfortunatley I do not have any WWS logs to link.
I am using the mod tellmewhen to put up an icon when bloodsurge procs, its easy to lose in sct sometimes.
"IMO Bloodsurge with two 1h weps is a poor value for 3 points." What are you putting those points into then? execute?
"IMO Bloodsurge with two 1h weps is a poor value for 3 points." What are you putting those points into then? execute?
Hey Guys a little advice if you could please.
I have tried TG and got the following results with Just BS buff.
I have been speaking with a few warriors on there thoughts and a few questions remain unanswered.
Im thinking of going back to DW 1 handers and currently have both fists of brutality, he blade of infamy and 2 x dragonstrikes at my disposal. I was using the blade of infamy and the fist of brutality.
1 of the warriors i spoke to has gone heavy 53/8/0 with the glaives and gone swordspec. but he said he feels axe spec way over powers this now. So i was thinking of making the 2 wicked edges and trying them. But then i got to thinking +15% ignore armor of the mace spec must also be strong?
And then my illussions get swayed again when i see posts of 15/46 ?
Im a little torn here guys can you help?
I have tried TG and got the following results with Just BS buff.
I have been speaking with a few warriors on there thoughts and a few questions remain unanswered.
Im thinking of going back to DW 1 handers and currently have both fists of brutality, he blade of infamy and 2 x dragonstrikes at my disposal. I was using the blade of infamy and the fist of brutality.
1 of the warriors i spoke to has gone heavy 53/8/0 with the glaives and gone swordspec. but he said he feels axe spec way over powers this now. So i was thinking of making the 2 wicked edges and trying them. But then i got to thinking +15% ignore armor of the mace spec must also be strong?
And then my illussions get swayed again when i see posts of 15/46 ?
Im a little torn here guys can you help?
I have been hearing a lot of (mis)information about how deep wounds lately. As far as I understand it used to simply reset the duration if you crit again with your deep wounds already on the target without doing anything to the damage of the ticks right? Right now there seems to be a lot of confusion about how it is currently working. I have heard that it rolls now and I have heard that it simply acts how ignite does currently.
Ex. 1 Rolling behavior indicates receiving above and beyond the additional 48% bleed damage from crits like:
(I am assuming DW ticks 3 times over 6 seconds)
Crit: 1000
DW: 160
DW: 160
Crit: 1000
DW: 320
DW: 320
Crit: 1000
DW: 480
DW: 480
Noncrit: 417
DW: 480
DW fades.
Total DW Expected: 1440
Actual DW Damage (assuming DW actually "rolls"): 2400
Ex. 2 What you would expect if DW is working like the current version of ignite:
Crit: 1000
DW: 160
DW: 160
Crit: 1000
DW: 213
DW: 213
Crit: 1000
DW: 231
DW: 231
Noncrit: 417
DW: 231
Expected Damage: 1440
Actual Damage: 1439
So basically I am curious as to whether DW is using the arguably bugged "rolling" behavior or if it is simply stacking as ignites currently do for mages (indicated in second example).
Ex. 1 Rolling behavior indicates receiving above and beyond the additional 48% bleed damage from crits like:
(I am assuming DW ticks 3 times over 6 seconds)
Crit: 1000
DW: 160
DW: 160
Crit: 1000
DW: 320
DW: 320
Crit: 1000
DW: 480
DW: 480
Noncrit: 417
DW: 480
DW fades.
Total DW Expected: 1440
Actual DW Damage (assuming DW actually "rolls"): 2400
Ex. 2 What you would expect if DW is working like the current version of ignite:
Crit: 1000
DW: 160
DW: 160
Crit: 1000
DW: 213
DW: 213
Crit: 1000
DW: 231
DW: 231
Noncrit: 417
DW: 231
Expected Damage: 1440
Actual Damage: 1439
So basically I am curious as to whether DW is using the arguably bugged "rolling" behavior or if it is simply stacking as ignites currently do for mages (indicated in second example).
Edited onPatch 2.4.3
2 BT Geared Warriors 1 Two Hander DPS Test
Purpose: To post some imperical data comparing zerker stance to battle stance.
Introduction: Two BT geared warriors giving some DPS data with particular rotations for other warriors to compare to. Most of the data I have seen posted is from fuly Sunwell geared raid buffed warriors. This post is intended to be used for further theory crafting.
Analysis
Warrior Test 1
Doogster
Spec: 53/8/0 - AP(unbuffed): 2106 - Hit: 169 - Crit: 40.86 (43.86 in zerker) - Expertise: 15
Battle stance
Rotation: Rend>MS>SD>OP>BS if nothing else slam
DPS 1833
*Included one BS use
**Did not include the use of recklessness
Zerker stance
Rotation priority to: MS>SD>BS>WW>Heroic strike
DPS1596
*Included one BS, recklessness, no slam
From this test it appears that making use of rend, OP, Slam in Battle stance is greater then the extra 3% crit in Zerker stance by 1833-1596=237DPS not factoring using recklessness.
Warrior Test 2
Nnev
Spec: 53/8/0 - AP(unbuffed): 2184 - Hit: 181 - Crit: 35.38 (38.38 in zerker) - Expertise: 15
Battle Stance
Rotation: Same as above
DPS1491
Zerker Stance
Rotation:Same as above
Image of Zerker Stance - Photobucket - Video and Image Hosting1389
From this test it appears that making use of rend, OP, Slam in Battle stance is greater then the extra 3% crit in Zerker stance by 1491-1389=102DPS not factoring using recklessness.
Conclusion
1) DPSing in battle stance results in more DPS then in zerker stance.
2) Approximately 1% crit = 70.7DPS all things being equal as calculated below:
Doogster battle stance crit 40.86 - Nnev battle stance crit 35.38 = 5.48% crit
Doogster battle stance DPS 1833 - Nnev battle stance DPS 1491 = 342DPS
342DPS/5.48%crit = 62.41DPS
Doogster DPS in battle stance 1833 - Doogster DPS in Zerker Stance 1596 = 237
Difference in stances = 3% to crit
237DPS/3 = 79DPS
(79+62.4)/2 = 70.7DPS
3) Crit 40.48; when I take off red belt of battle 24crit with two +10 crit gems my crit reduces by 44crit rating to 38.86% for a difference of 2%.
44crit rating/2% crit
22crit = 1% to crit
***All data was gathered starting with no rage; Used bloodrage to pop Battle Shout then began rotation.
****I will update this post if/when Nnev gets the BOH Axe (unlikely going to happen).
Introduction: Two BT geared warriors giving some DPS data with particular rotations for other warriors to compare to. Most of the data I have seen posted is from fuly Sunwell geared raid buffed warriors. This post is intended to be used for further theory crafting.
Analysis
Warrior Test 1
Doogster
Spec: 53/8/0 - AP(unbuffed): 2106 - Hit: 169 - Crit: 40.86 (43.86 in zerker) - Expertise: 15
Battle stance
Rotation: Rend>MS>SD>OP>BS if nothing else slam
DPS 1833
*Included one BS use
**Did not include the use of recklessness
Zerker stance
Rotation priority to: MS>SD>BS>WW>Heroic strike
DPS1596
*Included one BS, recklessness, no slam
From this test it appears that making use of rend, OP, Slam in Battle stance is greater then the extra 3% crit in Zerker stance by 1833-1596=237DPS not factoring using recklessness.
Warrior Test 2
Nnev
Spec: 53/8/0 - AP(unbuffed): 2184 - Hit: 181 - Crit: 35.38 (38.38 in zerker) - Expertise: 15
Battle Stance
Rotation: Same as above
DPS1491
Zerker Stance
Rotation:Same as above
Image of Zerker Stance - Photobucket - Video and Image Hosting1389
From this test it appears that making use of rend, OP, Slam in Battle stance is greater then the extra 3% crit in Zerker stance by 1491-1389=102DPS not factoring using recklessness.
Conclusion
1) DPSing in battle stance results in more DPS then in zerker stance.
2) Approximately 1% crit = 70.7DPS all things being equal as calculated below:
Doogster battle stance crit 40.86 - Nnev battle stance crit 35.38 = 5.48% crit
Doogster battle stance DPS 1833 - Nnev battle stance DPS 1491 = 342DPS
342DPS/5.48%crit = 62.41DPS
Doogster DPS in battle stance 1833 - Doogster DPS in Zerker Stance 1596 = 237
Difference in stances = 3% to crit
237DPS/3 = 79DPS
(79+62.4)/2 = 70.7DPS
3) Crit 40.48; when I take off red belt of battle 24crit with two +10 crit gems my crit reduces by 44crit rating to 38.86% for a difference of 2%.
44crit rating/2% crit
22crit = 1% to crit
***All data was gathered starting with no rage; Used bloodrage to pop Battle Shout then began rotation.
****I will update this post if/when Nnev gets the BOH Axe (unlikely going to happen).
Last edited by thechamp : 10/19/08 at 5:05 AM.
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Originally Posted by teenbcn
I did more slams than bloodsurges procs, this was done because I wanted to try it out, see how it turned to be as it was my first raid post 3.0.2 and more of a test than anything else. But no, 21slams in that recount doesn't mean 21 bloodsurges.
Hopefully the WoW Meter Online link will work as soon as the data can be backed up again, then you can check more throughfully. |
My question is that, if WOW Meter is correct, you're putting out 3433 TPS yet both your tanks are only at 2167/2029 TPS. How'd you manage that with no disc priests (pain supression) but 4 paladins (hand of salvation)? Was 4 hands really that much threat reduction?
Or were the tanks at like 3.5k - 4k TPS when tanking, but much less when not tanking and WOW Meter shows the average? 'cause now that I think about it, I can put out 2k TPS easily in ZA... A T6 tank with full raid buffs and Brut's infinate rage should easily double that xD
So I noticed while tanking headless horseman as 53/8 spec last night that MS and shield slam do not share a CD. I'm trying to figure out if there is any way to gain a DPS boost from this, considering my shield slams were critting for around 2.5k in my dps gear. Weapon swap triggers GCD, correct? So you essentially use 3 GCDs if you swap out to shield slam, or is that innaccurate?
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Originally Posted by Akston
I have been hearing a lot of (mis)information about how deep wounds lately. As far as I understand it used to simply reset the duration if you crit again with your deep wounds already on the target without doing anything to the damage of the ticks right? Right now there seems to be a lot of confusion about how it is currently working. I have heard that it rolls now and I have heard that it simply acts how ignite does currently.
Ex. 1 Rolling behavior indicates receiving above and beyond the additional 48% bleed damage from crits like: (I am assuming DW ticks 3 times over 6 seconds) Crit: 1000 DW: 160 DW: 160 Crit: 1000 DW: 320 DW: 320 Crit: 1000 DW: 480 DW: 480 Noncrit: 417 DW: 480 DW fades. Total DW Expected: 1440 Actual DW Damage (assuming DW actually "rolls"): 2400 Ex. 2 What you would expect if DW is working like the current version of ignite: Crit: 1000 DW: 160 DW: 160 Crit: 1000 DW: 213 DW: 213 Crit: 1000 DW: 231 DW: 231 Noncrit: 417 DW: 231 Expected Damage: 1440 Actual Damage: 1439 So basically I am curious as to whether DW is using the arguably bugged "rolling" behavior or if it is simply stacking as ignites currently do for mages (indicated in second example). |
a) DW tick every second not 2
b) Even then a warrior using all haste buffs and fast OH often crits MORE often then every second.
c) Every crit refreshes duration of deep wound
d) Crits more often then 1 sec apart cause deep wounds to not tick AT ALL, but "accumulate" damage in "DW buffer"
e) When you stop critting for moer then a sec the damage is "released"
Assuming you crit exactly 1.0 sec (or slightly more so DW ticks just before the next crit) apart with 1000 dmg MH range the ticks will be
0.0 CRIT (480 DW "buffer") ->DW tick of 80 (DW "buffer" down to 400)
1.0 CRIT (+480 DW "buffer"=880) ->DW tick of 147 (DW "buffer" down to 733)
2.0 CRIT (+480 DW "buffer"=1213) ->DW tick of 202 (DW "buffer" down to 1011)
....
....
....
(lets assume after 60 sec it comes to DW cap - in real math it never reaches it but its good enough approximation)
60.0 CRIT (+480 DW "buffer"=2880) ->DW tick of 480 (DW "buffer" down to 2400)
then it 'caps out' at 480/sec ticks
Thats exactly how ignite rolls, and its damage you can observe in some testing environment
However the huge ticks corm from different mechanism. Lets assume now the crits are still 1.0 sec apart but now its just 0.0001 sec BEFORE DW ticks
0.0 CRIT (480 DW "buffer") ->DW do NOT tick, because duration is refreshed
1.0 CRIT (960 DW "buffer") ->DW do NOT tick, because duration is refreshed
2.0 CRIT (1440 DW "buffer") ->DW do NOT tick, because duration is refreshed
...
...
60. CRIT(60x480=28800 DW "buffer") ->DW do NOT tick, because duration is refreshed
so far DW damage is ZERO. But if we stop attacking or stop critting that often, all the buffer is released THEN in 6 sec burst
61. NO CRIT - DW TICK OF 4800 (24000 dmg remaining in buffer)
62. NO CRIT - DW TICK OF 4800 (19200 dmg remaining in buffer)
63. NO CRIT - DW TICK OF 4800 (14400 dmg remaining in buffer)
64. NO CRIT - DW TICK OF 4800 (9600 dmg remaining in buffer)
65. NO CRIT - DW TICK OF 4800 (4800 dmg remaining in buffer)
66. NO CRIT - DW TICK OF 4800 (0 dmg remaining in buffer)
The damage from DW is about same if you add it up in 1st case remember they tick for 66 sec total in 2nd for 6. But the average tick damage will be 11 times higher in the 2nd - they will be just less spaced apart.
Notice how the DW recount/WWS with the huge ticks , have WAY less ticks then seconds in fight from 2.5-4 times less actually.
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Originally Posted by Shha
DW rolls perfectly fine using 2nd way - the reason why you see the 10k ticks on some WWS is totally different and not really applicable to mages.
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Originally Posted by Shha
a) DW tick every second not 2
b) Even then a warrior using all haste buffs and fast OH often crits MORE often then every second. c) Every crit refreshes duration of deep wound d) Crits more often then 1 sec apart cause deep wounds to not tick AT ALL, but "accumulate" damage in "DW buffer" e) When you stop critting for moer then a sec the damage is "released" |
Anyway what i wanted to know is if the huge ticks were a result of bugged ("rolling") behavior or simply the result of finally working like ignite does currently (minus ignites wierd issues with instant attacks) and it appears that it is just working they way it should and not causing any "extra" damage from DW the way true rolling does. I just got curious because everyone was using the term rolling and it seems no one actually understands exactly what rolling implies, I.E. pre-bc fire mages in naxx getting more than the listed extra damage on crits from ignite. A better terms for DW's current behavior would be stacking.
Edited onPatch 2.4.3
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Originally Posted by thechamp
...
To post some imperical data comparing zerker stance to battle stance. ... |
That said, I'm not sure this is much of a concern, and pretty sure it has been explored in other threads. Still, if you do want to re-examine something yourself, that's cool. Just try to do it a bit more scientifically if you want the results to be relevant to the rest of us. As a final note, it is useful to post the expanded dps percentages with recount (click your name) instead of just a flat number.
Last edited by Alaron : 10/19/08 at 5:19 PM.
With such emphasis on hit with TG how does expertise look? While putting together my TG set I came up with [Brooch of Deftness] beating out all but Endless Nightmares and Hard Khorium for that slot. Expertise should be just as valuable as hit should it not?
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Originally Posted by Machinator
With such emphasis on hit with TG how does expertise look? While putting together my TG set I came up with [Brooch of Deftness] beating out all but Endless Nightmares and Hard Khorium for that slot. Expertise should be just as valuable as hit should it not?
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Hey guys,
My highest DPS on tonights Kil'Jaeden attempts was 4070 DPS.
My highest deep wounds tick was 11,682.
Sadly I died twice on our actual kill so I'm sure I could have pushed higher numbers
Some links:
Armory
WebStats for my Character
Talent Spec (Armory hasn't updated since I tried 15/46/0)
I loved trying this spec.
With Incite maxed out and [Glyph of Heroic Strike] feeding it, you can seriously slam out those Heroic Strike crits to stack your deep wounds!
When patch went live, I started to stack crit, changed all my gems from 10 str to Crit/Str etc.
I changed my off-hand to a fast weapon and put mongoose on it.
I stacked haste items to try and keep critting before the initial deep wound ticks would go off, and that's about it!
Sadly I'm no number cruncher, but after being asked a few times on my realm what I did, i decided to post here!
Hope this helps people find a spec they enjoy
My highest DPS on tonights Kil'Jaeden attempts was 4070 DPS.
My highest deep wounds tick was 11,682.
Sadly I died twice on our actual kill so I'm sure I could have pushed higher numbers
Some links:
Armory
WebStats for my Character
Talent Spec (Armory hasn't updated since I tried 15/46/0)
I loved trying this spec.
With Incite maxed out and [Glyph of Heroic Strike] feeding it, you can seriously slam out those Heroic Strike crits to stack your deep wounds!
When patch went live, I started to stack crit, changed all my gems from 10 str to Crit/Str etc.
I changed my off-hand to a fast weapon and put mongoose on it.
I stacked haste items to try and keep critting before the initial deep wound ticks would go off, and that's about it!
Sadly I'm no number cruncher, but after being asked a few times on my realm what I did, i decided to post here!
Hope this helps people find a spec they enjoy
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Originally Posted by Kaytiecakes
Hey guys,
My highest DPS on tonights Kil'Jaeden attempts was 4070 DPS. My highest deep wounds tick was 11,682. Sadly I died twice on our actual kill so I'm sure I could have pushed higher numbers Some links: Armory WebStats for my Character Talent Spec (Armory hasn't updated since I tried 15/46/0) I loved trying this spec. With Incite maxed out and [Glyph of Heroic Strike] feeding it, you can seriously slam out those Heroic Strike crits to stack your deep wounds! When patch went live, I started to stack crit, changed all my gems from 10 str to Crit/Str etc. I changed my off-hand to a fast weapon and put mongoose on it. I stacked haste items to try and keep critting before the initial deep wound ticks would go off, and that's about it! Sadly I'm no number cruncher, but after being asked a few times on my realm what I did, i decided to post here! Hope this helps people find a spec they enjoy |
I'm going to be perfectly honest and just say that I assumed it would increase my chances of getting a critical hit in before the first tick of deep wounds would go off, which is 2 seconds after the critical hit lands.
I sure wish I was a mathematician to help you out, but it just felt like it made sense
I don't have any numbers or anything to back it up and I don't have any WWS logs to really go by, so I can't really compare SLOW/SLOW to SLOW/FAST personally and I'm sorry about that. The idea behind it was purely to prolong the chances of that first deep wounds tick going off and sneaking in a few Heroic Strike, Bloodthirst or Whirlwind crits before the first deep wound would tick.
After next weeks reset I'm going to record more logs and try to compare my melee hits landing and their crit chances and see the difference using a Slow/Slow combo. But I'm sure someone can answer your question much better than I can with Super hard maths!
I sure wish I was a mathematician to help you out, but it just felt like it made sense
I don't have any numbers or anything to back it up and I don't have any WWS logs to really go by, so I can't really compare SLOW/SLOW to SLOW/FAST personally and I'm sorry about that. The idea behind it was purely to prolong the chances of that first deep wounds tick going off and sneaking in a few Heroic Strike, Bloodthirst or Whirlwind crits before the first deep wound would tick.
After next weeks reset I'm going to record more logs and try to compare my melee hits landing and their crit chances and see the difference using a Slow/Slow combo. But I'm sure someone can answer your question much better than I can with Super hard maths!
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Originally Posted by Thoragar
Or were the tanks at like 3.5k - 4k TPS when tanking, but much less when not tanking and WOW Meter shows the average? 'cause now that I think about it, I can put out 2k TPS easily in ZA... A T6 tank with full raid buffs and Brut's infinate rage should easily double that xD
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Katiecakes, that's a pretty nice spec you got there. I tried out full fury, deep wounds fury, incite fury, but never mixed deep wounds with incite and rest fury. Quite a nice idea.
While I dont have math at hand, I dont even think its needed in order to tell you that you're correct on your assumtion that having a fast off hand will grant you more crits between the 2 seconds before DW ticks. Hell, it would be interesting to see how two fast weapons behave with DW, although the added damage to DW might not make it worth it in the end, it would still be interesting to see. Next time I run BT I'll test it out with Kalecgos' sword and Swiftsteel Bludgeon (1.5 speed weapons with haste into them ftw) with your spec to see what type of dps I get. Would be kinda sketch of me to be "trying" stuff when working on Kil'jaedan hehe.
That spec of yours with dual warglaives should be insanely good tho, so if someone has both glaives, might be a good idea to try it out. With the ammount of haste you can generate (specially if you have a DST) and that insanely fast offhand, those DW should be pilling up like crazy.
Regardless, I bet that the best spec most likely is 53/8 (if not 53/0/8 for incite) with two (I dare say) fast one handed axes and just go to town with heroic strikes and executes and make those DW tick like crazy. If someone has access to 2 S3 or S4 one handed axes, the fast ones, and can do some tests on that, it would be great, even if most people wont be able to play along with such a spec since the only fast one handed axe that comes to mind is The Brutalizer... lol and its a tad late to actually farm those axes in arenas right now. Maybe at level 80. 53/10/8 DWing fast axes and execute/heroic strike spam would be quite interesting to check out.
While I dont have math at hand, I dont even think its needed in order to tell you that you're correct on your assumtion that having a fast off hand will grant you more crits between the 2 seconds before DW ticks. Hell, it would be interesting to see how two fast weapons behave with DW, although the added damage to DW might not make it worth it in the end, it would still be interesting to see. Next time I run BT I'll test it out with Kalecgos' sword and Swiftsteel Bludgeon (1.5 speed weapons with haste into them ftw) with your spec to see what type of dps I get. Would be kinda sketch of me to be "trying" stuff when working on Kil'jaedan hehe.
That spec of yours with dual warglaives should be insanely good tho, so if someone has both glaives, might be a good idea to try it out. With the ammount of haste you can generate (specially if you have a DST) and that insanely fast offhand, those DW should be pilling up like crazy.
Regardless, I bet that the best spec most likely is 53/8 (if not 53/0/8 for incite) with two (I dare say) fast one handed axes and just go to town with heroic strikes and executes and make those DW tick like crazy. If someone has access to 2 S3 or S4 one handed axes, the fast ones, and can do some tests on that, it would be great, even if most people wont be able to play along with such a spec since the only fast one handed axe that comes to mind is The Brutalizer... lol and its a tad late to actually farm those axes in arenas right now. Maybe at level 80. 53/10/8 DWing fast axes and execute/heroic strike spam would be quite interesting to check out.
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Originally Posted by Thikkor
Regardless, I bet that the best spec most likely is 53/8 (if not 53/0/8 for incite) with two (I dare say) fast one handed axes and just go to town with heroic strikes and executes and make those DW tick like crazy. If someone has access to 2 S3 or S4 one handed axes, the fast ones, and can do some tests on that, it would be great, even if most people wont be able to play along with such a spec since the only fast one handed axe that comes to mind is The Brutalizer... lol and its a tad late to actually farm those axes in arenas right now. Maybe at level 80. 53/10/8 DWing fast axes and execute/heroic strike spam would be quite interesting to check out.
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About MH speed a fast one has various drawbacks. Lower deep wounds base damage, lower MS and WW damage, Sudden death procs with lesst than 1.5 sec difference are slightly wasted. I'm not sure a few more sudden death procs and more crits to stack Deep Wounds offset the drawbacks.
Old philosophy of slow MH for higher damage specials and now higher deep wounds base damage and fast OH for more hit procs and crits is the way that makes sense.
i was asking about that spec a few pages back. On our first KJ kill yesterday i was using a traditional Deep Wounds / Bloodthirst, Bloodsurge no TG spec with Glaives and was averaging 3000-3400 dps with haste breaths etc (Hard to validate, will post a wws later) I'll go back with DW, Incite and 3/5 IBS on Tuesday and give it a whirl. For the record i was getting 8k Deep wounds ticks. Woah.
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Originally Posted by Mogwai
i was asking about that spec a few pages back. On our first KJ kill yesterday i was using a traditional Deep Wounds / Bloodthirst, Bloodsurge no TG spec with Glaives and was averaging 3000-3400 dps with haste breaths etc (Hard to validate, will post a wws later) I'll go back with DW, Incite and 3/5 IBS on Tuesday and give it a whirl. For the record i was getting 8k Deep wounds ticks. Woah.
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Yeah, with no BS or rampage to keep up, free GCD's are everywhere.
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Originally Posted by Origence
As I see it Heroic Strike and Sudden Death Executes are rage dumps. And you will use one or the other, not both. In a bad streak of lack of sudden death procs Im using a few heroic strikes but honestly it doesnt happen much. When it gets changed to chance on hit probably HS will be more used but still HS and Execute go against each other as rage dumps. We'll never get rage for use MS,WW,Execute and HS. because execute sends your rage back to 10 and HS prevents the MH from generating rage. And HS is the worse of those 4 attacks, so it should be skipped.
About MH speed a fast one has various drawbacks. Lower deep wounds base damage, lower MS and WW damage, Sudden death procs with lesst than 1.5 sec difference are slightly wasted. I'm not sure a few more sudden death procs and more crits to stack Deep Wounds offset the drawbacks. Old philosophy of slow MH for higher damage specials and now higher deep wounds base damage and fast OH for more hit procs and crits is the way that makes sense. |
If we're talking about a spec like 53/0/8, or 53 whatever else, while dual wielding, your main focus is A) Executes and B) Deep Wounds. Everything else just there to provide some extra damage, but at the end of the raid, the things that will be doing most of your damage are going to be those two, plus Heroic Strike and/or auto attacks. You can actually see this if you check some pages back on the reports people have been linking. So if your MS is gonna hit lower, and your whirlwind is also not going to hit that hard, then who cares? I wouldn't as long as my executes and deep wounds and heroic strikes are making up for it, because its the whole idea on that spec.
When Sudden Death becomes a chance on hit, it will get even more benefit from a faster weapon as well. The more strikes you hit, the more chances you have to proc it, and Execute behaves the same with a fast weapon or a slow weapon, provided that even if it now benefits from attack power and, because of this, is now normalized by weapon speed, you're still using swords and not daggers, so its still the same 2.5 value for normalization of attack power on instant attacks. So your heroic strikes will hit lower, but you will hit more of them. Your executes are going to be hitting just as hard as they would hit any other way, but you will be getting a lot more Sudden Death procs (well, maybe not a LOT, but you get my point, even 1 extra is something when it crits for 9k). Your BT and WW will be lower. But, your Deep Wounds is going to go to the roof, and when you add Execute values + Deep Wounds, what will you get? That's what I'll try to find out now, to see if two fast weapons can actually do what in my head seems like an idea decent enough to at least try out.
Edit: Oh, and the Heroic Strike and Execute Glyphs would work amazingly well with such a built.
fury 15/46, with 60% crit raidbuffed, and blizzard is going to nerf arms 
ImageShack - Hosting :: wowscrnshot101908164400zl1.jpg
ImageShack - Hosting :: wowscrnshot101908164400zl1.jpg
I surely don't hope so. What I see are some decent warriors with warglaives.
You can't underestimate the haste gain from the glaives and the available haste gear that is finally competitive (or even better) than the changed amor ignore.
You can't underestimate the haste gain from the glaives and the available haste gear that is finally competitive (or even better) than the changed amor ignore.
60% crit? How you managed to get so much crit?
I thought crit was "capped" around 42% anyway? As in, not actually capped, but at a certain amount of crit it starts being the result getting pushed off the combat table, instead of other things.
I'm probably just way behind the times on this, apologies in advance.
I'm probably just way behind the times on this, apologies in advance.
well, critgems and sunwellgear, I had ~46% crit unbuffed in berserkerstance, + 2* Elemental Sharpening Stone and all the raidbuffs: mdw + kings +5%rampage + 3%Heart of the crusader.
My expertise is capped for dodges, 12% hit (with hitfood),
this makes 100 - 16% miss -25%glancings ~ 59% critcap for whitehits
and 75% for specials.
My expertise is capped for dodges, 12% hit (with hitfood),
this makes 100 - 16% miss -25%glancings ~ 59% critcap for whitehits
and 75% for specials.
I'm going to try this spec tomorrow during sunwell, I guess I can actually enchant my grip of mannorath since everyone is using fast OH now.
That's quite nice crit Zodd. I went 15/46 last night and was at around 50% crit only and did quite better than I was doing as arms, getting to 2900 on my best attempt on KJ. Still quite lower than what you guys are doing, but I'm still lacking some gear. Plus the few pieces I was proud of got a nice nerf (Hard Khorium Battleplate and Gloves of Immortal Dusk... /wrist). Went with Slow main hand (Dragonstrike) and Fast off hand (swiftsteel bludgeon) since I was expertise capped to use Kalecgos' sword. Still its more dps so I might try it out with the sword next time.
Deep Wounds ticks were around 4k at the highest. Dont know how you guys are making them tick for as high as you are. Maybe the extra 10% crit you have above me? lol. I'm definitely changing some things on my gear for more crit, like the gems on my chest and gloves (and bracers I believe?) which are all 10 str ones, make em 5str/5crit.
WTB a Muramasa tho, kinda tired of this bloody hammer already. Funny how some friends were impressed with my dps yesterday when there's people doing like 5k dps in here.
Deep Wounds ticks were around 4k at the highest. Dont know how you guys are making them tick for as high as you are. Maybe the extra 10% crit you have above me? lol. I'm definitely changing some things on my gear for more crit, like the gems on my chest and gloves (and bracers I believe?) which are all 10 str ones, make em 5str/5crit.
WTB a Muramasa tho, kinda tired of this bloody hammer already. Funny how some friends were impressed with my dps yesterday when there's people doing like 5k dps in here.
Edited onPatch 2.4.3
Ok from reading the last few pages it seems whether going arms or fury you still DW 1handed weapons to get the best damage. This is due to DW stacking and dumping.... is this working as intended or a known bug? yet to see anything from blizzard saying it's a bug though.
There don't seem to be many parses for arms using a 2hander so i don't know if it's worth using 2handers in arms. Currently it seems using a 2hander isn't as good as using 2x 1h but i can't really judge as theres not much 2handed arms info. Also which rotations to use as 2handed arms? Stick in battle and use overpower or stick to the 'standard' 2handed playstyle in zerker?
There don't seem to be many parses for arms using a 2hander so i don't know if it's worth using 2handers in arms. Currently it seems using a 2hander isn't as good as using 2x 1h but i can't really judge as theres not much 2handed arms info. Also which rotations to use as 2handed arms? Stick in battle and use overpower or stick to the 'standard' 2handed playstyle in zerker?
Last edited by narenek : 10/21/08 at 11:52 AM. Reason: my spelling is bad :(
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Originally Posted by narenek
Ok from reading the last few pages it seems whether going arms or fury you still DW 1handed weapons to get the best damage. This is due to DW stacking and dumping.... is this working as intended or a known bug? yet to see anything from blizzard saying it's a bug though.
There don't seem to be many parses for arms using a 2hander so i don't know if it's worth using 2handers in arms. Currently it seems using a 2hander isn't as good as using 2x 1h but i can't really judge as theres not much 2handed arms info. Also which rotations to use as 2handed arms? Stick in battle and use overpower or stick to the 'standard' 2handed playstyle in zerker? |
Right now you can go 53/8 with a two hander, 53/8 with 2 one handers, 53/0/8 for heroic strike crits to help with DWs, you can go 51/10 if you want to ignore Sudden Death (I did that at first, did around 2300dps while not used to the spec, so its viable but not recommendable to be honest). Or you could go Fury, and go 15/46, or 15/38/8, or 0/61/0 for Titan's Grip, or 1/52/8 I think another one is with Titan's Grip? There's a lot of different specs one can try, and you can perform extemely well with most of them, if you have the right gear for them. Specs are very gear sensitive at this point. Low hit while titan's grip, or low crit while 53 points in arms is going to really hurt your dps, as in, gimp the potential dps you could do.
I was 53/8 with a 2 hander till last night where I tried 15/46 (and loved it by the way), and I was always coming up at around 2500dps on boss fights. On trash, its retarded the amount of damage you can deal while using Bladestorm. Really, its amazing.
As for rotation as arms, I found staying on battle stance to be better because of overpower and rend. I normally went with something like: Rend > Sudden Death > MS > Overpower > Slam > Heroic Strike. Worked fine for me.
I tried 15/46 this week and I got I believe 3500 on brutallus only 3k on KJ. I tend to forget to slam just because I'm not used to it yet. I never used a SLOW/FAST combo just because I didn't have time to enchant my grip of mannorth, maybe nextweek.
try this for slams EventAlert - Addons - Curse
You can also modify your Scrolling Combat text to alert you to slam when your bloodthirst crits. So as 15/46 spec, with Deep wounds getting pushed back more and more the more often you crit back to back within one second of each other (happens a lot with glaives) is anyone noticing they do much more DPS if the fight lasts longer?
Zodd, how long was that Brut Kill? I was only managing 4150 on my first time with Dual Glaives so maybe I can compare differences?
Zodd, how long was that Brut Kill? I was only managing 4150 on my first time with Dual Glaives so maybe I can compare differences?
or MikScrolingBattleText...
Perhaps its group composition Landsoul? Do you run with a Ret Pally in the raid? Because he does, and a 3% haste when using dual glaives I bet is quite nice. Besides that, he has like 40 armor pen rating, 2.3% crit and 3% extra haste from haste rating from gear above you, while you have 80 hit rating and 130 more attack power above him (and 2% extra dmg on BT, WW and Slam). I doubt the difference between 4700dps to 4150 can be from those alone (the gear stats), but when you combine it with the benefit from the Ret Pally, then it just might (not that its the only possible factor, just weighting both of those which are the most obvious possibilities).
Are you using 2 elemental sharpening stones? That could also do quite a bit of difference if you are using the Righteous Weapon Coating or even Adamantite ones.
On another subject. Is there a particular reason why you both are still running with that Metagem? I believe CSD is better. 12 crit rating + 3% crit dmg > 12 agi + 3% crit damage. Slight benefit but a benefit nontheless.
Are you using 2 elemental sharpening stones? That could also do quite a bit of difference if you are using the Righteous Weapon Coating or even Adamantite ones.
On another subject. Is there a particular reason why you both are still running with that Metagem? I believe CSD is better. 12 crit rating + 3% crit dmg > 12 agi + 3% crit damage. Slight benefit but a benefit nontheless.
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Originally Posted by thechamp
Purpose: To post some imperical data comparing zerker stance to battle stance.
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Originally Posted by Nesnah
If so, it looks like your meta would be inactive, which would obviously hinder your DPS by a large amount.
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Originally Posted by ZODD1
fury 15/46, with 60% crit raidbuffed, and blizzard is going to nerf arms
ImageShack - Hosting :: wowscrnshot101908164400zl1.jpg |
Accounting for such "nerf", would reduce your Deep wound damage by up to 40% (35% more likely) putting it at more reasonable 20-25% range, and reducing overall dps by 500-700 dps. 4k-4.2k for a legendary wielding warrior with end gear - on a class that with new deep wound and other mechanics is back to "most gear dependant", and "fastest scaling", seem fine with me.
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Originally Posted by Shha
Accounting for such "nerf", would reduce your Deep wound damage by up to 40% (35% more likely) putting it at more reasonable 20-25% range, and reducing overall dps by 500-700 dps. 4k-4.2k for a legendary wielding warrior with end gear - on a class that with new deep wound and other mechanics is back to "most gear dependant", and "fastest scaling", seem fine with me.
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We'll see.
what is most popular build after 3.0.2?
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Originally Posted by Thikkor
Perhaps its group composition Landsoul? Do you run with a Ret Pally in the raid? etc etc
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Oh and BTW the difference between the 12 agi and the 12 crit meta gem is so abysmal it isnt worth the cost.
Well, yeah its extremely miniscule (0.18 crit if im not wrong), but I had the mats on my bank so went ahead and got it. Not much one can do with primals these days anyways. And yes, I missed the Guardian vs Stormrage thing too. =/ I hate it when pvp gear beats end game pve gear so much though.
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Originally Posted by Nezralix
You're being really optimistic about how they're going to resolve this issue, because I doubt they intend for Deep Wounds to be doing even 10% of your damage, let alone 25% or 40%. . I think it's much more likely they'll nerf the hell out of the current situation by making critical strikes just refresh your existing Deep Wounds stack without adding the remaining Deep Wounds damage to it, but probably while fixing the bug that's plagued Deep Wounds for awhile where the next tick time would be extended by a new application.
We'll see. |
Why would they do that? Other things aside, its a bit late to now nerf warrior damage by 25% and try to redesign talent trees to add the damage in other places. Ignite for fire mages works EXACTLY the same (save for %, but counting armor ignore, its also pretty much the same), always accounted for 25% or more of damage they do. Deep wounds arent a real "separate skill", its a mistake a lot of people seem to do in more or less annoying way (read the blizz forums ignorant post saying how "deep wounds require no skill"). Currently Deep wounds are like a modifier added to all your damage done - something along 20-25% added to your every attack. They dont "just happen". You still need to use WW , BT , Slams to keep your fury rotation going, keep flurry up etc - or your deep wounds will drop a lot - actually MORE then the damage overall.
If instead of saying "48% weapon damage" etc, it just said "increases your critical strike bonus by 60%" or so (sort of like Ruin or similiar talents) - it would be BETTER (more burst for pvp), yet cause less cries from people because it wouldnt have separate column in damage reports.
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Originally Posted by Mogwai
i was asking about that spec a few pages back. On our first KJ kill yesterday i was using a traditional Deep Wounds / Bloodthirst, Bloodsurge no TG spec with Glaives and was averaging 3000-3400 dps with haste breaths etc (Hard to validate, will post a wws later) I'll go back with DW, Incite and 3/5 IBS on Tuesday and give it a whirl. For the record i was getting 8k Deep wounds ticks. Woah.
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Yeah, with no BS or rampage to keep up, free GCD's are everywhere.
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Originally Posted by Origence
As I see it Heroic Strike and Sudden Death Executes are rage dumps. And you will use one or the other, not both. In a bad streak of lack of sudden death procs Im using a few heroic strikes but honestly it doesnt happen much. When it gets changed to chance on hit probably HS will be more used but still HS and Execute go against each other as rage dumps. We'll never get rage for use MS,WW,Execute and HS. because execute sends your rage back to 10 and HS prevents the MH from generating rage. And HS is the worse of those 4 attacks, so it should be skipped.
About MH speed a fast one has various drawbacks. Lower deep wounds base damage, lower MS and WW damage, Sudden death procs with lesst than 1.5 sec difference are slightly wasted. I'm not sure a few more sudden death procs and more crits to stack Deep Wounds offset the drawbacks. Old philosophy of slow MH for higher damage specials and now higher deep wounds base damage and fast OH for more hit procs and crits is the way that makes sense. |
If we're talking about a spec like 53/0/8, or 53 whatever else, while dual wielding, your main focus is A) Executes and B) Deep Wounds. Everything else just there to provide some extra damage, but at the end of the raid, the things that will be doing most of your damage are going to be those two, plus Heroic Strike and/or auto attacks. You can actually see this if you check some pages back on the reports people have been linking. So if your MS is gonna hit lower, and your whirlwind is also not going to hit that hard, then who cares? I wouldn't as long as my executes and deep wounds and heroic strikes are making up for it, because its the whole idea on that spec.
When Sudden Death becomes a chance on hit, it will get even more benefit from a faster weapon as well. The more strikes you hit, the more chances you have to proc it, and Execute behaves the same with a fast weapon or a slow weapon, provided that even if it now benefits from attack power and, because of this, is now normalized by weapon speed, you're still using swords and not daggers, so its still the same 2.5 value for normalization of attack power on instant attacks. So your heroic strikes will hit lower, but you will hit more of them. Your executes are going to be hitting just as hard as they would hit any other way, but you will be getting a lot more Sudden Death procs (well, maybe not a LOT, but you get my point, even 1 extra is something when it crits for 9k). Your BT and WW will be lower. But, your Deep Wounds is going to go to the roof, and when you add Execute values + Deep Wounds, what will you get? That's what I'll try to find out now, to see if two fast weapons can actually do what in my head seems like an idea decent enough to at least try out.
Edit: Oh, and the Heroic Strike and Execute Glyphs would work amazingly well with such a built.
fury 15/46, with 60% crit raidbuffed, and blizzard is going to nerf arms
ImageShack - Hosting :: wowscrnshot101908164400zl1.jpg
ImageShack - Hosting :: wowscrnshot101908164400zl1.jpg
I surely don't hope so. What I see are some decent warriors with warglaives.
You can't underestimate the haste gain from the glaives and the available haste gear that is finally competitive (or even better) than the changed amor ignore.
You can't underestimate the haste gain from the glaives and the available haste gear that is finally competitive (or even better) than the changed amor ignore.
60% crit? How you managed to get so much crit?
I thought crit was "capped" around 42% anyway? As in, not actually capped, but at a certain amount of crit it starts being the result getting pushed off the combat table, instead of other things.
I'm probably just way behind the times on this, apologies in advance.
I'm probably just way behind the times on this, apologies in advance.
well, critgems and sunwellgear, I had ~46% crit unbuffed in berserkerstance, + 2* Elemental Sharpening Stone and all the raidbuffs: mdw + kings +5%rampage + 3%Heart of the crusader.
My expertise is capped for dodges, 12% hit (with hitfood),
this makes 100 - 16% miss -25%glancings ~ 59% critcap for whitehits
and 75% for specials.
My expertise is capped for dodges, 12% hit (with hitfood),
this makes 100 - 16% miss -25%glancings ~ 59% critcap for whitehits
and 75% for specials.
I'm going to try this spec tomorrow during sunwell, I guess I can actually enchant my grip of mannorath since everyone is using fast OH now.
That's quite nice crit Zodd. I went 15/46 last night and was at around 50% crit only and did quite better than I was doing as arms, getting to 2900 on my best attempt on KJ. Still quite lower than what you guys are doing, but I'm still lacking some gear. Plus the few pieces I was proud of got a nice nerf (Hard Khorium Battleplate and Gloves of Immortal Dusk... /wrist). Went with Slow main hand (Dragonstrike) and Fast off hand (swiftsteel bludgeon) since I was expertise capped to use Kalecgos' sword. Still its more dps so I might try it out with the sword next time.
Deep Wounds ticks were around 4k at the highest. Dont know how you guys are making them tick for as high as you are. Maybe the extra 10% crit you have above me? lol. I'm definitely changing some things on my gear for more crit, like the gems on my chest and gloves (and bracers I believe?) which are all 10 str ones, make em 5str/5crit.
WTB a Muramasa tho, kinda tired of this bloody hammer already. Funny how some friends were impressed with my dps yesterday when there's people doing like 5k dps in here.
Deep Wounds ticks were around 4k at the highest. Dont know how you guys are making them tick for as high as you are. Maybe the extra 10% crit you have above me? lol. I'm definitely changing some things on my gear for more crit, like the gems on my chest and gloves (and bracers I believe?) which are all 10 str ones, make em 5str/5crit.
WTB a Muramasa tho, kinda tired of this bloody hammer already. Funny how some friends were impressed with my dps yesterday when there's people doing like 5k dps in here.
Edited onPatch 2.4.3
Ok from reading the last few pages it seems whether going arms or fury you still DW 1handed weapons to get the best damage. This is due to DW stacking and dumping.... is this working as intended or a known bug? yet to see anything from blizzard saying it's a bug though.
There don't seem to be many parses for arms using a 2hander so i don't know if it's worth using 2handers in arms. Currently it seems using a 2hander isn't as good as using 2x 1h but i can't really judge as theres not much 2handed arms info. Also which rotations to use as 2handed arms? Stick in battle and use overpower or stick to the 'standard' 2handed playstyle in zerker?
There don't seem to be many parses for arms using a 2hander so i don't know if it's worth using 2handers in arms. Currently it seems using a 2hander isn't as good as using 2x 1h but i can't really judge as theres not much 2handed arms info. Also which rotations to use as 2handed arms? Stick in battle and use overpower or stick to the 'standard' 2handed playstyle in zerker?
Last edited by narenek : 10/21/08 at 11:52 AM. Reason: my spelling is bad :(
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Originally Posted by narenek
Ok from reading the last few pages it seems whether going arms or fury you still DW 1handed weapons to get the best damage. This is due to DW stacking and dumping.... is this working as intended or a known bug? yet to see anything from blizzard saying it's a bug though.
There don't seem to be many parses for arms using a 2hander so i don't know if it's worth using 2handers in arms. Currently it seems using a 2hander isn't as good as using 2x 1h but i can't really judge as theres not much 2handed arms info. Also which rotations to use as 2handed arms? Stick in battle and use overpower or stick to the 'standard' 2handed playstyle in zerker? |
Right now you can go 53/8 with a two hander, 53/8 with 2 one handers, 53/0/8 for heroic strike crits to help with DWs, you can go 51/10 if you want to ignore Sudden Death (I did that at first, did around 2300dps while not used to the spec, so its viable but not recommendable to be honest). Or you could go Fury, and go 15/46, or 15/38/8, or 0/61/0 for Titan's Grip, or 1/52/8 I think another one is with Titan's Grip? There's a lot of different specs one can try, and you can perform extemely well with most of them, if you have the right gear for them. Specs are very gear sensitive at this point. Low hit while titan's grip, or low crit while 53 points in arms is going to really hurt your dps, as in, gimp the potential dps you could do.
I was 53/8 with a 2 hander till last night where I tried 15/46 (and loved it by the way), and I was always coming up at around 2500dps on boss fights. On trash, its retarded the amount of damage you can deal while using Bladestorm. Really, its amazing.
As for rotation as arms, I found staying on battle stance to be better because of overpower and rend. I normally went with something like: Rend > Sudden Death > MS > Overpower > Slam > Heroic Strike. Worked fine for me.
I tried 15/46 this week and I got I believe 3500 on brutallus only 3k on KJ. I tend to forget to slam just because I'm not used to it yet. I never used a SLOW/FAST combo just because I didn't have time to enchant my grip of mannorth, maybe nextweek.
try this for slams EventAlert - Addons - Curse
You can also modify your Scrolling Combat text to alert you to slam when your bloodthirst crits. So as 15/46 spec, with Deep wounds getting pushed back more and more the more often you crit back to back within one second of each other (happens a lot with glaives) is anyone noticing they do much more DPS if the fight lasts longer?
Zodd, how long was that Brut Kill? I was only managing 4150 on my first time with Dual Glaives so maybe I can compare differences?
Zodd, how long was that Brut Kill? I was only managing 4150 on my first time with Dual Glaives so maybe I can compare differences?
or MikScrolingBattleText...
Perhaps its group composition Landsoul? Do you run with a Ret Pally in the raid? Because he does, and a 3% haste when using dual glaives I bet is quite nice. Besides that, he has like 40 armor pen rating, 2.3% crit and 3% extra haste from haste rating from gear above you, while you have 80 hit rating and 130 more attack power above him (and 2% extra dmg on BT, WW and Slam). I doubt the difference between 4700dps to 4150 can be from those alone (the gear stats), but when you combine it with the benefit from the Ret Pally, then it just might (not that its the only possible factor, just weighting both of those which are the most obvious possibilities).
Are you using 2 elemental sharpening stones? That could also do quite a bit of difference if you are using the Righteous Weapon Coating or even Adamantite ones.
On another subject. Is there a particular reason why you both are still running with that Metagem? I believe CSD is better. 12 crit rating + 3% crit dmg > 12 agi + 3% crit damage. Slight benefit but a benefit nontheless.
Are you using 2 elemental sharpening stones? That could also do quite a bit of difference if you are using the Righteous Weapon Coating or even Adamantite ones.
On another subject. Is there a particular reason why you both are still running with that Metagem? I believe CSD is better. 12 crit rating + 3% crit dmg > 12 agi + 3% crit damage. Slight benefit but a benefit nontheless.
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Originally Posted by thechamp
Purpose: To post some imperical data comparing zerker stance to battle stance.
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Originally Posted by Nesnah
If so, it looks like your meta would be inactive, which would obviously hinder your DPS by a large amount.
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Originally Posted by ZODD1
fury 15/46, with 60% crit raidbuffed, and blizzard is going to nerf arms
ImageShack - Hosting :: wowscrnshot101908164400zl1.jpg |
Accounting for such "nerf", would reduce your Deep wound damage by up to 40% (35% more likely) putting it at more reasonable 20-25% range, and reducing overall dps by 500-700 dps. 4k-4.2k for a legendary wielding warrior with end gear - on a class that with new deep wound and other mechanics is back to "most gear dependant", and "fastest scaling", seem fine with me.
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Originally Posted by Shha
Accounting for such "nerf", would reduce your Deep wound damage by up to 40% (35% more likely) putting it at more reasonable 20-25% range, and reducing overall dps by 500-700 dps. 4k-4.2k for a legendary wielding warrior with end gear - on a class that with new deep wound and other mechanics is back to "most gear dependant", and "fastest scaling", seem fine with me.
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We'll see.
what is most popular build after 3.0.2?
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Originally Posted by Thikkor
Perhaps its group composition Landsoul? Do you run with a Ret Pally in the raid? etc etc
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Oh and BTW the difference between the 12 agi and the 12 crit meta gem is so abysmal it isnt worth the cost.
Well, yeah its extremely miniscule (0.18 crit if im not wrong), but I had the mats on my bank so went ahead and got it. Not much one can do with primals these days anyways. And yes, I missed the Guardian vs Stormrage thing too. =/ I hate it when pvp gear beats end game pve gear so much though.
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Originally Posted by Nezralix
You're being really optimistic about how they're going to resolve this issue, because I doubt they intend for Deep Wounds to be doing even 10% of your damage, let alone 25% or 40%. . I think it's much more likely they'll nerf the hell out of the current situation by making critical strikes just refresh your existing Deep Wounds stack without adding the remaining Deep Wounds damage to it, but probably while fixing the bug that's plagued Deep Wounds for awhile where the next tick time would be extended by a new application.
We'll see. |
Why would they do that? Other things aside, its a bit late to now nerf warrior damage by 25% and try to redesign talent trees to add the damage in other places. Ignite for fire mages works EXACTLY the same (save for %, but counting armor ignore, its also pretty much the same), always accounted for 25% or more of damage they do. Deep wounds arent a real "separate skill", its a mistake a lot of people seem to do in more or less annoying way (read the blizz forums ignorant post saying how "deep wounds require no skill"). Currently Deep wounds are like a modifier added to all your damage done - something along 20-25% added to your every attack. They dont "just happen". You still need to use WW , BT , Slams to keep your fury rotation going, keep flurry up etc - or your deep wounds will drop a lot - actually MORE then the damage overall.
If instead of saying "48% weapon damage" etc, it just said "increases your critical strike bonus by 60%" or so (sort of like Ruin or similiar talents) - it would be BETTER (more burst for pvp), yet cause less cries from people because it wouldnt have separate column in damage reports.
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Originally Posted by Shha
Why would they do that? Other things aside, its a bit late to now nerf warrior damage by 25% and try to redesign talent trees to add the damage in other places. Ignite for fire mages works EXACTLY the same (save for %, but counting armor ignore, its also pretty much the same), always accounted for 25% or more of damage they do. Deep wounds arent a real "separate skill", its a mistake a lot of people seem to do in more or less annoying way (read the blizz forums ignorant post saying how "deep wounds require no skill"). Currently Deep wounds are like a modifier added to all your damage done - something along 20-25% added to your every attack. They dont "just happen". You still need to use WW , BT , Slams to keep your fury rotation going, keep flurry up etc - or your deep wounds will drop a lot - actually MORE then the damage overall.
If instead of saying "48% weapon damage" etc, it just said "increases your critical strike bonus by 60%" or so (sort of like Ruin or similiar talents) - it would be BETTER (more burst for pvp), yet cause less cries from people because it wouldnt have separate column in damage reports. |
It would suck to have it nerfed stupidly at 80 because fixing the oh\mh procs is too large a hassle.
Edit: To be clear, I am 100% behind fixing the fast OH issue, just concerned about how they would do that.
Simple bandaid fix would be :
Deep Wounds no longer proc from OH attacks
Dual Wield Specialization changed to 10/20/30/40/50% increased offhand damage.
Not perfect but would work fine in my opinion
Deep Wounds no longer proc from OH attacks
Dual Wield Specialization changed to 10/20/30/40/50% increased offhand damage.
Not perfect but would work fine in my opinion
Really the offhand proccing MH damage range DW isn't that big of a problem. Warrior dps is hardly out of control and in need of nerfing at level 80. The only reason I could see for changing it would be that it causes people to gear rather strangely (2h-mh/dagger-oh).
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Originally Posted by Shha
Simple bandaid fix would be :
Deep Wounds no longer proc from OH attacks Dual Wield Specialization changed to 10/20/30/40/50% increased offhand damage. Not perfect but would work fine in my opinion |
My raiding alt is a fire mage, and I guess the system works identically, but it just feels so different. I realize no mage has 60% crit while also using the equivalent of fireballs from either hand and unlimited mana, yet making it tick every second would seem to fix a lot of issues. Having a refreshing dot tick with a longer space than our GCD seems counterintuitive.
Edited onPatch 2.4.3
It would also be nice if UF was better than enrage with some certainty. When I play with deep fury specs at 80, I tend to have those 2 talents competing with each other for points. For leveling, soloing, tanking 5 mans, and collateral damage fights, enrage is flat out better (and not by a close margin). On a fight like patchwerk with 0 collateral damage, UF is better. I'm all for nerfing deep wounds and redistributing the dps deeper into the trees. I did like, however, fighting a holy paladin outside of SW last night (instance servers down) and being able to plow small crits into him to generate actual damage through deep wounds.
Old ignite and new deep wounds are not quite the same. In old ignite, crits not only refreshed ignite but they also brought over 100% damage. I've never raided on a mage, but I think at one point if you had 3 1000 ticks coming your way and 2 went off and you crit again, you would now have 3 2000 ticks coming because it brought over 100% of the old ignite into the new. Deep wounds brings over only the unused damage (which I think is what new ignite does). Going an entire fight chaining crits within a second of each other is hardly possible. You can sustain it for seconds or fractions of a minute, but an entire 3 minute fight? Any time your deep wounds starts ticking, that huge built up pool of damage bleeds off extremely fast. I think some of the huge DW bursts we see come immediately after reckless heroisms where they let their reckless charges go for almost the full duration. Then you can see 10 seconds of pure crits at a frequency that would prevent ticks.
Then again, if you're afraid your ticks won't go off until a boss is dead, then it's just dps-queen numbers and not really important.
Old ignite and new deep wounds are not quite the same. In old ignite, crits not only refreshed ignite but they also brought over 100% damage. I've never raided on a mage, but I think at one point if you had 3 1000 ticks coming your way and 2 went off and you crit again, you would now have 3 2000 ticks coming because it brought over 100% of the old ignite into the new. Deep wounds brings over only the unused damage (which I think is what new ignite does). Going an entire fight chaining crits within a second of each other is hardly possible. You can sustain it for seconds or fractions of a minute, but an entire 3 minute fight? Any time your deep wounds starts ticking, that huge built up pool of damage bleeds off extremely fast. I think some of the huge DW bursts we see come immediately after reckless heroisms where they let their reckless charges go for almost the full duration. Then you can see 10 seconds of pure crits at a frequency that would prevent ticks.
Then again, if you're afraid your ticks won't go off until a boss is dead, then it's just dps-queen numbers and not really important.
Last edited by Grymm : 10/22/08 at 4:32 PM.
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Originally Posted by Morsexy
My raiding alt is a fire mage, and I guess the system works identically, but it just feels so different. I realize no mage has 60% crit while also using the equivalent of fireballs from either hand and unlimited mana, yet making it tick every second would seem to fix a lot of issues. Having a refreshing dot tick with a longer space than our GCD seems counterintuitive.
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b) Deep wounds are alreayd on 1 sec tick. The problem is with the super fast oh + all the haste effects you can get a WG OH down to like 0.5speed. With 65%+ crit it can almost "suspend" deep wounds on its own - thus making the super ticks.
Just a quick rundown. I have 25% haste on gear, there is 25% flurry 20% WF 3% ret aura = 0.74 speed on 1.4 OH. If i had WG bonus , and counting DST procs , heroism , haste pots (each of those effects basically pushing you under 0.5 speed, combined they can make it like 0.3 as well...) . Well imagine rest for yourself
So for those of you that are currently using 53/8 are you finding better dps in battle using overpower and rend or in zerker using WW?
I stayed in zerker last night on Brut. I think WW is excellent for keeping DW rolling along with the 3% to crit for SD procs.
I stayed in zerker last night on Brut. I think WW is excellent for keeping DW rolling along with the 3% to crit for SD procs.
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Originally Posted by Grymm
Then again, if you're afraid your ticks won't go off until a boss is dead, then it's just dps-queen numbers and not really important. |
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Originally Posted by Shha
a) Raiding Mages have now well over 60% crit if they try :p
b) Deep wounds are alreayd on 1 sec tick. The problem is with the super fast oh + all the haste effects you can get a WG OH down to like 0.5speed. With 65%+ crit it can almost "suspend" deep wounds on its own - thus making the super ticks. Just a quick rundown. I have 25% haste on gear, there is 25% flurry 20% WF 3% ret aura = 0.74 speed on 1.4 OH. If i had WG bonus , and counting DST procs , heroism , haste pots (each of those effects basically pushing you under 0.5 speed, combined they can make it like 0.3 as well...) . Well imagine rest for yourself |
Actually i disagree. Ever since the major warrior overhaul some time ago it seemed clear that warrior "evolution" will be
2h arms-> TG-> DW arms, as the gear progresses.2h Arms provides best "punch" in the talents, whilepretty horrible scaling (only with crit, and that caps out decently fast). TG provides awesome scaling, but very bad start, and start for DW SD arms is even more abysmal but scaling is pretty insane (SD spec gets about SEVEN times more dps out of 1% crit then pre-3.0 fury). The late shifts/buffs/nerfs just seem to change the distance between those specs a bit, but not really change the order. Come early 80 most warriors who care foremost about effectiveness will go with 2h arms, then switch to TG and at the very end go DW arms.
Furthermore the discussion about deep wounds is even more important with TG buff - because TG RIGHT NOW is about abusing DW even more - aka slow 3.8 2hander in MH, and 1.3 speed OH dagger to keep them coming.
2h arms-> TG-> DW arms, as the gear progresses.2h Arms provides best "punch" in the talents, whilepretty horrible scaling (only with crit, and that caps out decently fast). TG provides awesome scaling, but very bad start, and start for DW SD arms is even more abysmal but scaling is pretty insane (SD spec gets about SEVEN times more dps out of 1% crit then pre-3.0 fury). The late shifts/buffs/nerfs just seem to change the distance between those specs a bit, but not really change the order. Come early 80 most warriors who care foremost about effectiveness will go with 2h arms, then switch to TG and at the very end go DW arms.
Furthermore the discussion about deep wounds is even more important with TG buff - because TG RIGHT NOW is about abusing DW even more - aka slow 3.8 2hander in MH, and 1.3 speed OH dagger to keep them coming.
Edited onPatch 2.4.3
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Originally Posted by Shha
If instead of saying "48% weapon damage" etc, it just said "increases your critical strike bonus by 60%" or so (sort of like Ruin or similiar talents) - it would be BETTER (more burst for pvp), yet cause less cries from people because it wouldnt have separate column in damage reports.
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-edit for emphasis-
Two points in Deep Wounds increases your total damage by more than 50%
Last edited by Grayson Carlyle : 10/22/08 at 7:30 PM.
Are there any WWS logs that have DW contributing more than 48% of your total damage? I didn't think I saw any on here... Most of the time DW contributes roughly 35-45% of your total damage...
How exactly would 2 points (in a 3 point talent) increase total damage by more than the total contribution of DW? You can really only attribute the damage from it to itself right? It doesn't make your executes more exciting or your blood thirsts more epic... I Suppose I just don't quite understand the point you're trying to make... Unless you were talking about total damage of DW?
Please forgive my ignorance I am just here trying to understand proper warrior theory-crafting.
How exactly would 2 points (in a 3 point talent) increase total damage by more than the total contribution of DW? You can really only attribute the damage from it to itself right? It doesn't make your executes more exciting or your blood thirsts more epic... I Suppose I just don't quite understand the point you're trying to make... Unless you were talking about total damage of DW?
Please forgive my ignorance I am just here trying to understand proper warrior theory-crafting.
Edited onPatch 2.4.3
Can you please read my posts before you reply to them Grayson?
I said multiple times in this thread that the OH "bug" should be fixed. Deep wounds dont account for anywhere close to 35% damage if you dont abuse it. Fix it and they will cap out around 20% of your damage. 15% if you have worse gear.
20% of your damage is 25% increased damage. With the current crazy crit of ~70% (for me at least) crits roughly contribute to 85% of your non periodic damage. That means DW increase critical damage by ~30%.
Also to everyone complaining about DW :
Seal of the Martyr - Spell - World of Warcraft
What exactly is the difference?
I said multiple times in this thread that the OH "bug" should be fixed. Deep wounds dont account for anywhere close to 35% damage if you dont abuse it. Fix it and they will cap out around 20% of your damage. 15% if you have worse gear.
20% of your damage is 25% increased damage. With the current crazy crit of ~70% (for me at least) crits roughly contribute to 85% of your non periodic damage. That means DW increase critical damage by ~30%.
Also to everyone complaining about DW :
Seal of the Martyr - Spell - World of Warcraft
What exactly is the difference?
Last edited by Shha : 10/22/08 at 8:11 PM.
Edited onPatch 2.4.3
Well, scrub most of this post cause I was saying something entirely wrong.
Last edited by Grayson Carlyle : 10/22/08 at 8:29 PM.
Shha,
For the laymen... please explain why optimaly a warrior would want to wield 2 1hers in Arms spec.
As well as, what exactly is the reason you would wield a 3.5 speed 2her and 1.3 speed dagger for fury?
Finally, as far as leveling 70-80, what is the optimal spec?
TIA.
For the laymen... please explain why optimaly a warrior would want to wield 2 1hers in Arms spec.
As well as, what exactly is the reason you would wield a 3.5 speed 2her and 1.3 speed dagger for fury?
Finally, as far as leveling 70-80, what is the optimal spec?
TIA.
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Originally Posted by Alexplayswow
As well as, what exactly is the reason you would wield a 3.5 speed 2her and 1.3 speed dagger for fury? |
Quick napkin math:
Say you have 3 weapons. 2 are 3.8 speed 2 handers of whoa and 1 is a 1.4 156 dps dagger. All 3 weapons are of the same ilvl. I chose these dps values from the bs craftables to ensure the same ilvl.
MH a 3.8er at 5000 ap. Damage (base) = 3.8*(203+5000/14) = 2128.54
Deep Wounds = .48*2128.54 = 1021.7
Crits (base) are = 2*2128.54 = 4257.1
Total MH Crit damage = 5278.8
Total MH DPS at 50% crit = 974.65
This is all without any real talents/abilities/magnifiers.
OH a 3.8er at 5000 ap. Damage (base) = 3.8*.625*(203+5000/14)= 1330.3 (includes DW spec)
Crits (base) are = 2*1330.3 = 2660.7
Total OH Crit Damage = 2660.7+ 1021.7 = 3682.4
Total OH DPS at 50% crit = 656.6
The OH does 67.7% of the MH dps because it uses the MH for deep wounds instead of the OH. This is a slight bump from the expected 62.5%.
Now OH the dagger at 5000 ap. Damage (base) = 1.4*.625*(156+5000/14)=449 (included DW spec)
Crits (base) are = 2*449 = 898
Total OH Crit damage = 898 + 1021.7 = 1919.7 Yes, the OH does more damage on a crit from DW than it does base.
Total OH DPS at 50% crit = 846.0
The OH dagger does 86.8% of the MH dps because of deep wounds. This is a large step up from 62.5%. As crit increases, this percentage increases to 98.7% at 100% crit.
So, a player OHing a lower dps dagger gains 186 dps base at 50% before any haste effects and amplifiers are even taken into effect.
Say you have 3 weapons. 2 are 3.8 speed 2 handers of whoa and 1 is a 1.4 156 dps dagger. All 3 weapons are of the same ilvl. I chose these dps values from the bs craftables to ensure the same ilvl.
MH a 3.8er at 5000 ap. Damage (base) = 3.8*(203+5000/14) = 2128.54
Deep Wounds = .48*2128.54 = 1021.7
Crits (base) are = 2*2128.54 = 4257.1
Total MH Crit damage = 5278.8
Total MH DPS at 50% crit = 974.65
This is all without any real talents/abilities/magnifiers.
OH a 3.8er at 5000 ap. Damage (base) = 3.8*.625*(203+5000/14)= 1330.3 (includes DW spec)
Crits (base) are = 2*1330.3 = 2660.7
Total OH Crit Damage = 2660.7+ 1021.7 = 3682.4
Total OH DPS at 50% crit = 656.6
The OH does 67.7% of the MH dps because it uses the MH for deep wounds instead of the OH. This is a slight bump from the expected 62.5%.
Now OH the dagger at 5000 ap. Damage (base) = 1.4*.625*(156+5000/14)=449 (included DW spec)
Crits (base) are = 2*449 = 898
Total OH Crit damage = 898 + 1021.7 = 1919.7 Yes, the OH does more damage on a crit from DW than it does base.
Total OH DPS at 50% crit = 846.0
The OH dagger does 86.8% of the MH dps because of deep wounds. This is a large step up from 62.5%. As crit increases, this percentage increases to 98.7% at 100% crit.
So, a player OHing a lower dps dagger gains 186 dps base at 50% before any haste effects and amplifiers are even taken into effect.
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Originally Posted by Shha
...
b) Deep wounds are alreayd on 1 sec tick... |
Would like to see some numbers backing up your claim about dw arms being supreme at high gear levels. Or have you already done the napkinmath and I missed it? Is this only gut feeling? I remain somewhat sceptic
First time poster long time lurker...
I've been messing with the specs too.
Forewarning: I didn't change any of my gear nor regem anything since the 3.0 patch, just the spec. i'm 53/8/0.
We did Brutallus the other day. I started with Cat's Edge for the first 3-5 tries or so. Then switched to the two badge fists (1.5 speed one in OH).
Here's our best non-attempt with me using a Cat's Edge
Wow Web Stats
Here's our kill with me using the two badge fists (1.5 speed one in OH) and staying in zerker stance.
Wow Web Stats
i'm sold on the DW in arms spec.
Forewarning: I didn't change any of my gear nor regem anything since the 3.0 patch, just the spec. i'm 53/8/0.
We did Brutallus the other day. I started with Cat's Edge for the first 3-5 tries or so. Then switched to the two badge fists (1.5 speed one in OH).
Here's our best non-attempt with me using a Cat's Edge
Wow Web Stats
Here's our kill with me using the two badge fists (1.5 speed one in OH) and staying in zerker stance.
Wow Web Stats
i'm sold on the DW in arms spec.
i have used 53/8/0 whit an axe mh (decipitator) and sword oh (blade of savagery) tonight on our alt bt run.
my gear isnt the best but decent (middle sunwell, slacking a bit nowadays...). it came out for 4100 dps on mother, and i died at 22%. well, i know her is a low armor boss but i think this dps can be around 4500-5000 on brutallus if i get some better mh (s4 axe over the decipitator, or glaive over decipitator and a good and fast axe over the blade of savagery.)
gear was what you can see on armory. i took 5/5 axe and sword specc. execution and rend major glyps.
http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?warr...00000000000000
i kept up rend, used execute whenever it was up, overpower > ms. and heroic around 80 rage and no sudden death up. havent used bladestorm. sadly they going to nerf sudden death. so we are going to fall behind this dps soon.
my gear isnt the best but decent (middle sunwell, slacking a bit nowadays...). it came out for 4100 dps on mother, and i died at 22%. well, i know her is a low armor boss but i think this dps can be around 4500-5000 on brutallus if i get some better mh (s4 axe over the decipitator, or glaive over decipitator and a good and fast axe over the blade of savagery.)
gear was what you can see on armory. i took 5/5 axe and sword specc. execution and rend major glyps.
http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?warr...00000000000000
i kept up rend, used execute whenever it was up, overpower > ms. and heroic around 80 rage and no sudden death up. havent used bladestorm. sadly they going to nerf sudden death. so we are going to fall behind this dps soon.
Edited onPatch 2.4.3
You can actually use them as pretty good measurements because you typically have every buff all the time and 1 heroism.
also Sudden Death is staying the way it is.
MMO-Champion BlueTracker - Sudden Death not getting nerfed?
Name DPS Class Spec Time Proof 1 Trent 5472 Hunter MM 2:50 http://gwai.org/Stasis/Beta/sws-patchwerk-1224471301/index.html 2 Chalon 5335 Rogue Mutilate 2:50 http://gwai.org/Stasis/Beta/sws-patchwerk-1224471301/index.html 3 Negivarian 5023 Warrior Arms 2:50 http://gwai.org/Stasis/Beta/sws-patchwerk-1224471301/index.html 4 Oglop 4999 Mage Frostfire 3:57 http://gwai.org/Stasis/Beta/sws-patchwerk-1224384289/index.html 5 Lotek 4827 Warrior Fury 2:50 http://gwai.org/Stasis/Beta/sws-patchwerk-1224471301/index.html 6 Khaene 4401 DK Frost 2:50 http://gwai.org/Stasis/Beta/sws-patchwerk-1224471301/index.html 7 Chaz 4287 Paladin Ret 2:50 http://gwai.org/Stasis/Beta/sws-patchwerk-1224471301/index.html 8 Rinn 4265 Mage Fire 2:50 http://gwai.org/Stasis/Beta/sws-patchwerk-1224471301/index.html 9 Magekg 4171 Mage Frostfire 2:50 http://gwai.org/Stasis/Beta/sws-patchwerk-1224471301/index.html 10 Rpgwizard 4025 Mage Frostfire 2:50 http://gwai.org/Stasis/Beta/sws-patchwerk-1224471301/index.html
MMO-Champion BlueTracker - Sudden Death not getting nerfed?
Last edited by Aedon : 10/23/08 at 7:45 PM.
I'll be honest, I never paid attention to it as to the exact timing before now of Deep Wounds.
It is definitely 1 second ticks. Just at first blush, this is something they changed? I tried to find a note of that somewhere but couldn't find it.
I definitely remember 260ish Deep Wounds ticks when I would get a kill on someone like a rogue in PVP before they changed it to the 3.0 Deep Wounds, so its my guess it was changed.
It is definitely 1 second ticks. Just at first blush, this is something they changed? I tried to find a note of that somewhere but couldn't find it.
I definitely remember 260ish Deep Wounds ticks when I would get a kill on someone like a rogue in PVP before they changed it to the 3.0 Deep Wounds, so its my guess it was changed.
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Originally Posted by Kcinham
I've been messing with the specs too.
Forewarning: I didn't change any of my gear nor regem anything since the 3.0 patch, just the spec. i'm 53/8/0. We did Brutallus the other day. I started with Cat's Edge for the first 3-5 tries or so. Then switched to the two badge fists (1.5 speed one in OH). Here's our best non-attempt with me using a Cat's Edge Wow Web Stats Here's our kill with me using the two badge fists (1.5 speed one in OH) and staying in zerker stance. Wow Web Stats i'm sold on the DW in arms spec. |
Im sold on it too, our gear is similar and from the wws we have the same 'rotation' i'd throw a few more HS in and get the glyph to return 10 rage making it cost only 2 for a chance at a non missing SD proc with the 53/0/8 spec.
After a few raids as a dual-glaive warrior in Sunwell with patch 3.0.2, i thought i would post my findings.
Week 1: 12/49/0
Spec something like: http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?warr...12053120501300
My initial reaction was awesome, historically on fights like Brut i was generally near the top around the same damage as a non-glaived rogue and generally behind a lock or a mage around 2300 dps. Not great for a dual glaive warrior but with raid leading as well it affects my dps. I don't feel bad about it.
Brut - I don't have a WWS for that weeks Brut, but recount had me around the 3300 mark and that was without an enh. shaman. Using slam with bloodsurge, a ret paladin for BoM and my own rampage buff.
KJ - (First kill) Wow Web Stats The kill was pretty low dps combined with lots of darkness shields, meteor avoidance etc. Some earlier attempts (13,14,15) show dps around the 3300 mark. Again no improved wf.
The spec is fairly simple to play, with no BS and Rampage to manage, all you are looking for is the Slam! proc. I didn't manage my short cooldown buffs as well as i might (Blood Fury, Recklessness, Death Wish)
Week 2: 15/38/8
http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?warr...12051120300000
only 3/5 IBS, 1/3 Intensify Rage , No Rampage, 3/5 Unbridled Wrath. 3/3 Incite.
Whilst the previous week was fun, i thought that playing with incite was worth it. Although 8 talent points for a 15% crit bonus on 1 real skill doesn't seem worth it, the increased Deep Wounds procs seemed to be worth looking at for those big rolling numbers.
Initial feeling felt like significantly more DPS, i pulled aggro on felmyst early on, which was a first. The tanking warrior soon learnt to keep Vigilance on me, it may have been the upped threat from the loss of 2/5 IBS, but numbers were bigger too.
Brut - Wow Web Stats There was significant server lag, and my numbers i think in a vacuum don't look great, but i was fairly happy with this considering. Couldn't spend rage fast enough at all, HS glyph keeps it coming in. I hit slam a few times accidentally but it felt bigger than the old spec.
KJ - Wow Web Stats This was fun, however comparatively i think we only needed 2 shields during the whole fight compared to 6 or 7 the previous week, so a lot more dps uptime.
Assuming DW stays as it is, i think an Incite build is interesting, i don't necessarily think it is worth it though considering the lack of utility you bring with no Rampage. I'm sure some will criticise my dps, but enough people have inquired as to the spec for me to bring some info.
I hit 3993 DPS on teron and somewhere along the line in BT i broke a 10k DW tick. It does feel nice to be shredding the meters though. I may have a play with arms at some point.
Week 1: 12/49/0
Spec something like: http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?warr...12053120501300
My initial reaction was awesome, historically on fights like Brut i was generally near the top around the same damage as a non-glaived rogue and generally behind a lock or a mage around 2300 dps. Not great for a dual glaive warrior but with raid leading as well it affects my dps. I don't feel bad about it.
Brut - I don't have a WWS for that weeks Brut, but recount had me around the 3300 mark and that was without an enh. shaman. Using slam with bloodsurge, a ret paladin for BoM and my own rampage buff.
KJ - (First kill) Wow Web Stats The kill was pretty low dps combined with lots of darkness shields, meteor avoidance etc. Some earlier attempts (13,14,15) show dps around the 3300 mark. Again no improved wf.
The spec is fairly simple to play, with no BS and Rampage to manage, all you are looking for is the Slam! proc. I didn't manage my short cooldown buffs as well as i might (Blood Fury, Recklessness, Death Wish)
Week 2: 15/38/8
http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?warr...12051120300000
only 3/5 IBS, 1/3 Intensify Rage , No Rampage, 3/5 Unbridled Wrath. 3/3 Incite.
Whilst the previous week was fun, i thought that playing with incite was worth it. Although 8 talent points for a 15% crit bonus on 1 real skill doesn't seem worth it, the increased Deep Wounds procs seemed to be worth looking at for those big rolling numbers.
Initial feeling felt like significantly more DPS, i pulled aggro on felmyst early on, which was a first. The tanking warrior soon learnt to keep Vigilance on me, it may have been the upped threat from the loss of 2/5 IBS, but numbers were bigger too.
Brut - Wow Web Stats There was significant server lag, and my numbers i think in a vacuum don't look great, but i was fairly happy with this considering. Couldn't spend rage fast enough at all, HS glyph keeps it coming in. I hit slam a few times accidentally but it felt bigger than the old spec.
KJ - Wow Web Stats This was fun, however comparatively i think we only needed 2 shields during the whole fight compared to 6 or 7 the previous week, so a lot more dps uptime.
Assuming DW stays as it is, i think an Incite build is interesting, i don't necessarily think it is worth it though considering the lack of utility you bring with no Rampage. I'm sure some will criticise my dps, but enough people have inquired as to the spec for me to bring some info.
I hit 3993 DPS on teron and somewhere along the line in BT i broke a 10k DW tick. It does feel nice to be shredding the meters though. I may have a play with arms at some point.
| We tried a couple of nerfs to Sudden Death, such as less damage or less chance to proc. We didn't like any of them, so for now the ability is staying as is. |
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Originally Posted by Karsa
Doesn't this mean that it will still be a 9% chance on hit? Not 30% chance on crit as it is now? Since they have already stated that they don't want axe-specc to become mandatory if you play arms.
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No, it means it stays as it is now, which is 30% chance to proc off of your crit. So if your crit is 30%, then yes your chance to proc SD if 9% - if your attack crits. If your crit is 40% then its 12%, etc., etc..
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Originally Posted by Shha
Why would they do that? Other things aside, its a bit late to now nerf warrior damage by 25% and try to redesign talent trees to add the damage in other places. Ignite for fire mages works EXACTLY the same (save for %, but counting armor ignore, its also pretty much the same), always accounted for 25% or more of damage they do. Deep wounds arent a real "separate skill", its a mistake a lot of people seem to do in more or less annoying way (read the blizz forums ignorant post saying how "deep wounds require no skill"). Currently Deep wounds are like a modifier added to all your damage done - something along 20-25% added to your every attack. They dont "just happen". You still need to use WW , BT , Slams to keep your fury rotation going, keep flurry up etc - or your deep wounds will drop a lot - actually MORE then the damage overall.
If instead of saying "48% weapon damage" etc, it just said "increases your critical strike bonus by 60%" or so (sort of like Ruin or similiar talents) - it would be BETTER (more burst for pvp), yet cause less cries from people because it wouldnt have separate column in damage reports. |
It would suck to have it nerfed stupidly at 80 because fixing the oh\mh procs is too large a hassle.
Edit: To be clear, I am 100% behind fixing the fast OH issue, just concerned about how they would do that.
Simple bandaid fix would be :
Deep Wounds no longer proc from OH attacks
Dual Wield Specialization changed to 10/20/30/40/50% increased offhand damage.
Not perfect but would work fine in my opinion
Deep Wounds no longer proc from OH attacks
Dual Wield Specialization changed to 10/20/30/40/50% increased offhand damage.
Not perfect but would work fine in my opinion
Really the offhand proccing MH damage range DW isn't that big of a problem. Warrior dps is hardly out of control and in need of nerfing at level 80. The only reason I could see for changing it would be that it causes people to gear rather strangely (2h-mh/dagger-oh).
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Originally Posted by Shha
Simple bandaid fix would be :
Deep Wounds no longer proc from OH attacks Dual Wield Specialization changed to 10/20/30/40/50% increased offhand damage. Not perfect but would work fine in my opinion |
My raiding alt is a fire mage, and I guess the system works identically, but it just feels so different. I realize no mage has 60% crit while also using the equivalent of fireballs from either hand and unlimited mana, yet making it tick every second would seem to fix a lot of issues. Having a refreshing dot tick with a longer space than our GCD seems counterintuitive.
Edited onPatch 2.4.3
It would also be nice if UF was better than enrage with some certainty. When I play with deep fury specs at 80, I tend to have those 2 talents competing with each other for points. For leveling, soloing, tanking 5 mans, and collateral damage fights, enrage is flat out better (and not by a close margin). On a fight like patchwerk with 0 collateral damage, UF is better. I'm all for nerfing deep wounds and redistributing the dps deeper into the trees. I did like, however, fighting a holy paladin outside of SW last night (instance servers down) and being able to plow small crits into him to generate actual damage through deep wounds.
Old ignite and new deep wounds are not quite the same. In old ignite, crits not only refreshed ignite but they also brought over 100% damage. I've never raided on a mage, but I think at one point if you had 3 1000 ticks coming your way and 2 went off and you crit again, you would now have 3 2000 ticks coming because it brought over 100% of the old ignite into the new. Deep wounds brings over only the unused damage (which I think is what new ignite does). Going an entire fight chaining crits within a second of each other is hardly possible. You can sustain it for seconds or fractions of a minute, but an entire 3 minute fight? Any time your deep wounds starts ticking, that huge built up pool of damage bleeds off extremely fast. I think some of the huge DW bursts we see come immediately after reckless heroisms where they let their reckless charges go for almost the full duration. Then you can see 10 seconds of pure crits at a frequency that would prevent ticks.
Then again, if you're afraid your ticks won't go off until a boss is dead, then it's just dps-queen numbers and not really important.
Old ignite and new deep wounds are not quite the same. In old ignite, crits not only refreshed ignite but they also brought over 100% damage. I've never raided on a mage, but I think at one point if you had 3 1000 ticks coming your way and 2 went off and you crit again, you would now have 3 2000 ticks coming because it brought over 100% of the old ignite into the new. Deep wounds brings over only the unused damage (which I think is what new ignite does). Going an entire fight chaining crits within a second of each other is hardly possible. You can sustain it for seconds or fractions of a minute, but an entire 3 minute fight? Any time your deep wounds starts ticking, that huge built up pool of damage bleeds off extremely fast. I think some of the huge DW bursts we see come immediately after reckless heroisms where they let their reckless charges go for almost the full duration. Then you can see 10 seconds of pure crits at a frequency that would prevent ticks.
Then again, if you're afraid your ticks won't go off until a boss is dead, then it's just dps-queen numbers and not really important.
Last edited by Grymm : 10/22/08 at 4:32 PM.
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Originally Posted by Morsexy
My raiding alt is a fire mage, and I guess the system works identically, but it just feels so different. I realize no mage has 60% crit while also using the equivalent of fireballs from either hand and unlimited mana, yet making it tick every second would seem to fix a lot of issues. Having a refreshing dot tick with a longer space than our GCD seems counterintuitive.
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b) Deep wounds are alreayd on 1 sec tick. The problem is with the super fast oh + all the haste effects you can get a WG OH down to like 0.5speed. With 65%+ crit it can almost "suspend" deep wounds on its own - thus making the super ticks.
Just a quick rundown. I have 25% haste on gear, there is 25% flurry 20% WF 3% ret aura = 0.74 speed on 1.4 OH. If i had WG bonus , and counting DST procs , heroism , haste pots (each of those effects basically pushing you under 0.5 speed, combined they can make it like 0.3 as well...) . Well imagine rest for yourself
So for those of you that are currently using 53/8 are you finding better dps in battle using overpower and rend or in zerker using WW?
I stayed in zerker last night on Brut. I think WW is excellent for keeping DW rolling along with the 3% to crit for SD procs.
I stayed in zerker last night on Brut. I think WW is excellent for keeping DW rolling along with the 3% to crit for SD procs.
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Originally Posted by Grymm
Then again, if you're afraid your ticks won't go off until a boss is dead, then it's just dps-queen numbers and not really important. |
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Originally Posted by Shha
a) Raiding Mages have now well over 60% crit if they try :p
b) Deep wounds are alreayd on 1 sec tick. The problem is with the super fast oh + all the haste effects you can get a WG OH down to like 0.5speed. With 65%+ crit it can almost "suspend" deep wounds on its own - thus making the super ticks. Just a quick rundown. I have 25% haste on gear, there is 25% flurry 20% WF 3% ret aura = 0.74 speed on 1.4 OH. If i had WG bonus , and counting DST procs , heroism , haste pots (each of those effects basically pushing you under 0.5 speed, combined they can make it like 0.3 as well...) . Well imagine rest for yourself |
Actually i disagree. Ever since the major warrior overhaul some time ago it seemed clear that warrior "evolution" will be
2h arms-> TG-> DW arms, as the gear progresses.2h Arms provides best "punch" in the talents, whilepretty horrible scaling (only with crit, and that caps out decently fast). TG provides awesome scaling, but very bad start, and start for DW SD arms is even more abysmal but scaling is pretty insane (SD spec gets about SEVEN times more dps out of 1% crit then pre-3.0 fury). The late shifts/buffs/nerfs just seem to change the distance between those specs a bit, but not really change the order. Come early 80 most warriors who care foremost about effectiveness will go with 2h arms, then switch to TG and at the very end go DW arms.
Furthermore the discussion about deep wounds is even more important with TG buff - because TG RIGHT NOW is about abusing DW even more - aka slow 3.8 2hander in MH, and 1.3 speed OH dagger to keep them coming.
2h arms-> TG-> DW arms, as the gear progresses.2h Arms provides best "punch" in the talents, whilepretty horrible scaling (only with crit, and that caps out decently fast). TG provides awesome scaling, but very bad start, and start for DW SD arms is even more abysmal but scaling is pretty insane (SD spec gets about SEVEN times more dps out of 1% crit then pre-3.0 fury). The late shifts/buffs/nerfs just seem to change the distance between those specs a bit, but not really change the order. Come early 80 most warriors who care foremost about effectiveness will go with 2h arms, then switch to TG and at the very end go DW arms.
Furthermore the discussion about deep wounds is even more important with TG buff - because TG RIGHT NOW is about abusing DW even more - aka slow 3.8 2hander in MH, and 1.3 speed OH dagger to keep them coming.
Edited onPatch 2.4.3
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Originally Posted by Shha
If instead of saying "48% weapon damage" etc, it just said "increases your critical strike bonus by 60%" or so (sort of like Ruin or similiar talents) - it would be BETTER (more burst for pvp), yet cause less cries from people because it wouldnt have separate column in damage reports.
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-edit for emphasis-
Two points in Deep Wounds increases your total damage by more than 50%
Last edited by Grayson Carlyle : 10/22/08 at 7:30 PM.
Are there any WWS logs that have DW contributing more than 48% of your total damage? I didn't think I saw any on here... Most of the time DW contributes roughly 35-45% of your total damage...
How exactly would 2 points (in a 3 point talent) increase total damage by more than the total contribution of DW? You can really only attribute the damage from it to itself right? It doesn't make your executes more exciting or your blood thirsts more epic... I Suppose I just don't quite understand the point you're trying to make... Unless you were talking about total damage of DW?
Please forgive my ignorance I am just here trying to understand proper warrior theory-crafting.
How exactly would 2 points (in a 3 point talent) increase total damage by more than the total contribution of DW? You can really only attribute the damage from it to itself right? It doesn't make your executes more exciting or your blood thirsts more epic... I Suppose I just don't quite understand the point you're trying to make... Unless you were talking about total damage of DW?
Please forgive my ignorance I am just here trying to understand proper warrior theory-crafting.
Edited onPatch 2.4.3
Can you please read my posts before you reply to them Grayson?
I said multiple times in this thread that the OH "bug" should be fixed. Deep wounds dont account for anywhere close to 35% damage if you dont abuse it. Fix it and they will cap out around 20% of your damage. 15% if you have worse gear.
20% of your damage is 25% increased damage. With the current crazy crit of ~70% (for me at least) crits roughly contribute to 85% of your non periodic damage. That means DW increase critical damage by ~30%.
Also to everyone complaining about DW :
Seal of the Martyr - Spell - World of Warcraft
What exactly is the difference?
I said multiple times in this thread that the OH "bug" should be fixed. Deep wounds dont account for anywhere close to 35% damage if you dont abuse it. Fix it and they will cap out around 20% of your damage. 15% if you have worse gear.
20% of your damage is 25% increased damage. With the current crazy crit of ~70% (for me at least) crits roughly contribute to 85% of your non periodic damage. That means DW increase critical damage by ~30%.
Also to everyone complaining about DW :
Seal of the Martyr - Spell - World of Warcraft
What exactly is the difference?
Last edited by Shha : 10/22/08 at 8:11 PM.
Edited onPatch 2.4.3
Well, scrub most of this post cause I was saying something entirely wrong.
Last edited by Grayson Carlyle : 10/22/08 at 8:29 PM.
Shha,
For the laymen... please explain why optimaly a warrior would want to wield 2 1hers in Arms spec.
As well as, what exactly is the reason you would wield a 3.5 speed 2her and 1.3 speed dagger for fury?
Finally, as far as leveling 70-80, what is the optimal spec?
TIA.
For the laymen... please explain why optimaly a warrior would want to wield 2 1hers in Arms spec.
As well as, what exactly is the reason you would wield a 3.5 speed 2her and 1.3 speed dagger for fury?
Finally, as far as leveling 70-80, what is the optimal spec?
TIA.
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Originally Posted by Alexplayswow
As well as, what exactly is the reason you would wield a 3.5 speed 2her and 1.3 speed dagger for fury? |
Quick napkin math:
Say you have 3 weapons. 2 are 3.8 speed 2 handers of whoa and 1 is a 1.4 156 dps dagger. All 3 weapons are of the same ilvl. I chose these dps values from the bs craftables to ensure the same ilvl.
MH a 3.8er at 5000 ap. Damage (base) = 3.8*(203+5000/14) = 2128.54
Deep Wounds = .48*2128.54 = 1021.7
Crits (base) are = 2*2128.54 = 4257.1
Total MH Crit damage = 5278.8
Total MH DPS at 50% crit = 974.65
This is all without any real talents/abilities/magnifiers.
OH a 3.8er at 5000 ap. Damage (base) = 3.8*.625*(203+5000/14)= 1330.3 (includes DW spec)
Crits (base) are = 2*1330.3 = 2660.7
Total OH Crit Damage = 2660.7+ 1021.7 = 3682.4
Total OH DPS at 50% crit = 656.6
The OH does 67.7% of the MH dps because it uses the MH for deep wounds instead of the OH. This is a slight bump from the expected 62.5%.
Now OH the dagger at 5000 ap. Damage (base) = 1.4*.625*(156+5000/14)=449 (included DW spec)
Crits (base) are = 2*449 = 898
Total OH Crit damage = 898 + 1021.7 = 1919.7 Yes, the OH does more damage on a crit from DW than it does base.
Total OH DPS at 50% crit = 846.0
The OH dagger does 86.8% of the MH dps because of deep wounds. This is a large step up from 62.5%. As crit increases, this percentage increases to 98.7% at 100% crit.
So, a player OHing a lower dps dagger gains 186 dps base at 50% before any haste effects and amplifiers are even taken into effect.
Say you have 3 weapons. 2 are 3.8 speed 2 handers of whoa and 1 is a 1.4 156 dps dagger. All 3 weapons are of the same ilvl. I chose these dps values from the bs craftables to ensure the same ilvl.
MH a 3.8er at 5000 ap. Damage (base) = 3.8*(203+5000/14) = 2128.54
Deep Wounds = .48*2128.54 = 1021.7
Crits (base) are = 2*2128.54 = 4257.1
Total MH Crit damage = 5278.8
Total MH DPS at 50% crit = 974.65
This is all without any real talents/abilities/magnifiers.
OH a 3.8er at 5000 ap. Damage (base) = 3.8*.625*(203+5000/14)= 1330.3 (includes DW spec)
Crits (base) are = 2*1330.3 = 2660.7
Total OH Crit Damage = 2660.7+ 1021.7 = 3682.4
Total OH DPS at 50% crit = 656.6
The OH does 67.7% of the MH dps because it uses the MH for deep wounds instead of the OH. This is a slight bump from the expected 62.5%.
Now OH the dagger at 5000 ap. Damage (base) = 1.4*.625*(156+5000/14)=449 (included DW spec)
Crits (base) are = 2*449 = 898
Total OH Crit damage = 898 + 1021.7 = 1919.7 Yes, the OH does more damage on a crit from DW than it does base.
Total OH DPS at 50% crit = 846.0
The OH dagger does 86.8% of the MH dps because of deep wounds. This is a large step up from 62.5%. As crit increases, this percentage increases to 98.7% at 100% crit.
So, a player OHing a lower dps dagger gains 186 dps base at 50% before any haste effects and amplifiers are even taken into effect.
|
Originally Posted by Shha
...
b) Deep wounds are alreayd on 1 sec tick... |
Would like to see some numbers backing up your claim about dw arms being supreme at high gear levels. Or have you already done the napkinmath and I missed it? Is this only gut feeling? I remain somewhat sceptic
First time poster long time lurker...
I've been messing with the specs too.
Forewarning: I didn't change any of my gear nor regem anything since the 3.0 patch, just the spec. i'm 53/8/0.
We did Brutallus the other day. I started with Cat's Edge for the first 3-5 tries or so. Then switched to the two badge fists (1.5 speed one in OH).
Here's our best non-attempt with me using a Cat's Edge
Wow Web Stats
Here's our kill with me using the two badge fists (1.5 speed one in OH) and staying in zerker stance.
Wow Web Stats
i'm sold on the DW in arms spec.
Forewarning: I didn't change any of my gear nor regem anything since the 3.0 patch, just the spec. i'm 53/8/0.
We did Brutallus the other day. I started with Cat's Edge for the first 3-5 tries or so. Then switched to the two badge fists (1.5 speed one in OH).
Here's our best non-attempt with me using a Cat's Edge
Wow Web Stats
Here's our kill with me using the two badge fists (1.5 speed one in OH) and staying in zerker stance.
Wow Web Stats
i'm sold on the DW in arms spec.
i have used 53/8/0 whit an axe mh (decipitator) and sword oh (blade of savagery) tonight on our alt bt run.
my gear isnt the best but decent (middle sunwell, slacking a bit nowadays...). it came out for 4100 dps on mother, and i died at 22%. well, i know her is a low armor boss but i think this dps can be around 4500-5000 on brutallus if i get some better mh (s4 axe over the decipitator, or glaive over decipitator and a good and fast axe over the blade of savagery.)
gear was what you can see on armory. i took 5/5 axe and sword specc. execution and rend major glyps.
http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?warr...00000000000000
i kept up rend, used execute whenever it was up, overpower > ms. and heroic around 80 rage and no sudden death up. havent used bladestorm. sadly they going to nerf sudden death. so we are going to fall behind this dps soon.
my gear isnt the best but decent (middle sunwell, slacking a bit nowadays...). it came out for 4100 dps on mother, and i died at 22%. well, i know her is a low armor boss but i think this dps can be around 4500-5000 on brutallus if i get some better mh (s4 axe over the decipitator, or glaive over decipitator and a good and fast axe over the blade of savagery.)
gear was what you can see on armory. i took 5/5 axe and sword specc. execution and rend major glyps.
http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?warr...00000000000000
i kept up rend, used execute whenever it was up, overpower > ms. and heroic around 80 rage and no sudden death up. havent used bladestorm. sadly they going to nerf sudden death. so we are going to fall behind this dps soon.
Edited onPatch 2.4.3
You can actually use them as pretty good measurements because you typically have every buff all the time and 1 heroism.
also Sudden Death is staying the way it is.
MMO-Champion BlueTracker - Sudden Death not getting nerfed?
Name DPS Class Spec Time Proof 1 Trent 5472 Hunter MM 2:50 http://gwai.org/Stasis/Beta/sws-patchwerk-1224471301/index.html 2 Chalon 5335 Rogue Mutilate 2:50 http://gwai.org/Stasis/Beta/sws-patchwerk-1224471301/index.html 3 Negivarian 5023 Warrior Arms 2:50 http://gwai.org/Stasis/Beta/sws-patchwerk-1224471301/index.html 4 Oglop 4999 Mage Frostfire 3:57 http://gwai.org/Stasis/Beta/sws-patchwerk-1224384289/index.html 5 Lotek 4827 Warrior Fury 2:50 http://gwai.org/Stasis/Beta/sws-patchwerk-1224471301/index.html 6 Khaene 4401 DK Frost 2:50 http://gwai.org/Stasis/Beta/sws-patchwerk-1224471301/index.html 7 Chaz 4287 Paladin Ret 2:50 http://gwai.org/Stasis/Beta/sws-patchwerk-1224471301/index.html 8 Rinn 4265 Mage Fire 2:50 http://gwai.org/Stasis/Beta/sws-patchwerk-1224471301/index.html 9 Magekg 4171 Mage Frostfire 2:50 http://gwai.org/Stasis/Beta/sws-patchwerk-1224471301/index.html 10 Rpgwizard 4025 Mage Frostfire 2:50 http://gwai.org/Stasis/Beta/sws-patchwerk-1224471301/index.html
MMO-Champion BlueTracker - Sudden Death not getting nerfed?
Last edited by Aedon : 10/23/08 at 7:45 PM.
I'll be honest, I never paid attention to it as to the exact timing before now of Deep Wounds.
It is definitely 1 second ticks. Just at first blush, this is something they changed? I tried to find a note of that somewhere but couldn't find it.
I definitely remember 260ish Deep Wounds ticks when I would get a kill on someone like a rogue in PVP before they changed it to the 3.0 Deep Wounds, so its my guess it was changed.
It is definitely 1 second ticks. Just at first blush, this is something they changed? I tried to find a note of that somewhere but couldn't find it.
I definitely remember 260ish Deep Wounds ticks when I would get a kill on someone like a rogue in PVP before they changed it to the 3.0 Deep Wounds, so its my guess it was changed.
|
Originally Posted by Kcinham
I've been messing with the specs too.
Forewarning: I didn't change any of my gear nor regem anything since the 3.0 patch, just the spec. i'm 53/8/0. We did Brutallus the other day. I started with Cat's Edge for the first 3-5 tries or so. Then switched to the two badge fists (1.5 speed one in OH). Here's our best non-attempt with me using a Cat's Edge Wow Web Stats Here's our kill with me using the two badge fists (1.5 speed one in OH) and staying in zerker stance. Wow Web Stats i'm sold on the DW in arms spec. |
Im sold on it too, our gear is similar and from the wws we have the same 'rotation' i'd throw a few more HS in and get the glyph to return 10 rage making it cost only 2 for a chance at a non missing SD proc with the 53/0/8 spec.
After a few raids as a dual-glaive warrior in Sunwell with patch 3.0.2, i thought i would post my findings.
Week 1: 12/49/0
Spec something like: http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?warr...12053120501300
My initial reaction was awesome, historically on fights like Brut i was generally near the top around the same damage as a non-glaived rogue and generally behind a lock or a mage around 2300 dps. Not great for a dual glaive warrior but with raid leading as well it affects my dps. I don't feel bad about it.
Brut - I don't have a WWS for that weeks Brut, but recount had me around the 3300 mark and that was without an enh. shaman. Using slam with bloodsurge, a ret paladin for BoM and my own rampage buff.
KJ - (First kill) Wow Web Stats The kill was pretty low dps combined with lots of darkness shields, meteor avoidance etc. Some earlier attempts (13,14,15) show dps around the 3300 mark. Again no improved wf.
The spec is fairly simple to play, with no BS and Rampage to manage, all you are looking for is the Slam! proc. I didn't manage my short cooldown buffs as well as i might (Blood Fury, Recklessness, Death Wish)
Week 2: 15/38/8
http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?warr...12051120300000
only 3/5 IBS, 1/3 Intensify Rage , No Rampage, 3/5 Unbridled Wrath. 3/3 Incite.
Whilst the previous week was fun, i thought that playing with incite was worth it. Although 8 talent points for a 15% crit bonus on 1 real skill doesn't seem worth it, the increased Deep Wounds procs seemed to be worth looking at for those big rolling numbers.
Initial feeling felt like significantly more DPS, i pulled aggro on felmyst early on, which was a first. The tanking warrior soon learnt to keep Vigilance on me, it may have been the upped threat from the loss of 2/5 IBS, but numbers were bigger too.
Brut - Wow Web Stats There was significant server lag, and my numbers i think in a vacuum don't look great, but i was fairly happy with this considering. Couldn't spend rage fast enough at all, HS glyph keeps it coming in. I hit slam a few times accidentally but it felt bigger than the old spec.
KJ - Wow Web Stats This was fun, however comparatively i think we only needed 2 shields during the whole fight compared to 6 or 7 the previous week, so a lot more dps uptime.
Assuming DW stays as it is, i think an Incite build is interesting, i don't necessarily think it is worth it though considering the lack of utility you bring with no Rampage. I'm sure some will criticise my dps, but enough people have inquired as to the spec for me to bring some info.
I hit 3993 DPS on teron and somewhere along the line in BT i broke a 10k DW tick. It does feel nice to be shredding the meters though. I may have a play with arms at some point.
Week 1: 12/49/0
Spec something like: http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?warr...12053120501300
My initial reaction was awesome, historically on fights like Brut i was generally near the top around the same damage as a non-glaived rogue and generally behind a lock or a mage around 2300 dps. Not great for a dual glaive warrior but with raid leading as well it affects my dps. I don't feel bad about it.
Brut - I don't have a WWS for that weeks Brut, but recount had me around the 3300 mark and that was without an enh. shaman. Using slam with bloodsurge, a ret paladin for BoM and my own rampage buff.
KJ - (First kill) Wow Web Stats The kill was pretty low dps combined with lots of darkness shields, meteor avoidance etc. Some earlier attempts (13,14,15) show dps around the 3300 mark. Again no improved wf.
The spec is fairly simple to play, with no BS and Rampage to manage, all you are looking for is the Slam! proc. I didn't manage my short cooldown buffs as well as i might (Blood Fury, Recklessness, Death Wish)
Week 2: 15/38/8
http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?warr...12051120300000
only 3/5 IBS, 1/3 Intensify Rage , No Rampage, 3/5 Unbridled Wrath. 3/3 Incite.
Whilst the previous week was fun, i thought that playing with incite was worth it. Although 8 talent points for a 15% crit bonus on 1 real skill doesn't seem worth it, the increased Deep Wounds procs seemed to be worth looking at for those big rolling numbers.
Initial feeling felt like significantly more DPS, i pulled aggro on felmyst early on, which was a first. The tanking warrior soon learnt to keep Vigilance on me, it may have been the upped threat from the loss of 2/5 IBS, but numbers were bigger too.
Brut - Wow Web Stats There was significant server lag, and my numbers i think in a vacuum don't look great, but i was fairly happy with this considering. Couldn't spend rage fast enough at all, HS glyph keeps it coming in. I hit slam a few times accidentally but it felt bigger than the old spec.
KJ - Wow Web Stats This was fun, however comparatively i think we only needed 2 shields during the whole fight compared to 6 or 7 the previous week, so a lot more dps uptime.
Assuming DW stays as it is, i think an Incite build is interesting, i don't necessarily think it is worth it though considering the lack of utility you bring with no Rampage. I'm sure some will criticise my dps, but enough people have inquired as to the spec for me to bring some info.
I hit 3993 DPS on teron and somewhere along the line in BT i broke a 10k DW tick. It does feel nice to be shredding the meters though. I may have a play with arms at some point.
| We tried a couple of nerfs to Sudden Death, such as less damage or less chance to proc. We didn't like any of them, so for now the ability is staying as is. |
|
Originally Posted by Karsa
Doesn't this mean that it will still be a 9% chance on hit? Not 30% chance on crit as it is now? Since they have already stated that they don't want axe-specc to become mandatory if you play arms.
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No, it means it stays as it is now, which is 30% chance to proc off of your crit. So if your crit is 30%, then yes your chance to proc SD if 9% - if your attack crits. If your crit is 40% then its 12%, etc., etc..
Edited onPatch 2.4.3
I got the wws reports now
Brutallus 4900 DPS, I guess 5k is possible, but I was constant over 90% threat with vigilance on me.
Wow Web Stats
KJ 4500 DPS
Wow Web Stats
Brutallus 4900 DPS, I guess 5k is possible, but I was constant over 90% threat with vigilance on me.
Wow Web Stats
KJ 4500 DPS
Wow Web Stats
Last edited by ZODD1 : 10/24/08 at 10:38 AM.
http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?warr...00000000000000
Is the spec i'd go for dual glaives, should break 3.5k without a sweat and includes slam as a rage dump if you have a spare gcd. Feral druid or fury war with rampage is a must.
Is the spec i'd go for dual glaives, should break 3.5k without a sweat and includes slam as a rage dump if you have a spare gcd. Feral druid or fury war with rampage is a must.
That's some insane DPS ZODD. Only i can't quite realise how you're having threat problems, have you asked Paladins for Hand of Salvation?
hum, I guess no, didn't even knew they have such a stuff now.
While I only have an OH glaive, this week I had tried 15/46 for our SW raids (last week was TG) and I did 1200 more DPS on brut due to DW. Wow Web Stats
Pretty insane. And yeah, I ran into a huge threat issue, I went over and almost overtook one of our tanks, I yelled on vent for a hand of salvation. I was also intervened. It helped greatly for the rest of the fight.
Same thing almost happened on KJ too. I gave our lock tank a 20k threat lead and he told me towards the end that I was riding him.
Pretty insane. And yeah, I ran into a huge threat issue, I went over and almost overtook one of our tanks, I yelled on vent for a hand of salvation. I was also intervened. It helped greatly for the rest of the fight.
Same thing almost happened on KJ too. I gave our lock tank a 20k threat lead and he told me towards the end that I was riding him.
|
Originally Posted by ZODD1
I got the wws reports now
Brutallus 4900 DPS, I guess 5k is possible, but I was constant over 90% threat with vigilance on me. Wow Web Stats KJ 4500 DPS Wow Web Stats |
Edited onPatch 2.4.3
If you actually had a look at the WWS, you'd see that he was using Bloodthirst, meaning it'd be a Fury build. It also lists the build at the top of his personal DPS track, if you click his name in the listing.
Insanely nice damage though, I wonder if 1H Fury still has some merit - also in Wrath?
Insanely nice damage though, I wonder if 1H Fury still has some merit - also in Wrath?
Last edited by Arantar : 10/25/08 at 5:03 AM.
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Originally Posted by Heaton
what spec was this? armory says 53/8 so I assume that
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Edited onPatch 2.4.3
|
Originally Posted by Arantar
Insanely nice damage though, I wonder if 1H Fury still has some merit - also in Wrath?
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Brutallus 4752 DPS
On Brut I was spiking ontop of the tank the last 5%, as we're still "experimenting" he felt it'd be a good idea to give our ret pala Vigilance. The thing that annoys me with DW atm is that faced with a movement encounter, or f.ex Muru where you face many mobs which die quickly, you're stuck with Deep Wounds barely more potent (ok, that's hardly fair, it's three very good talent points spent even for encounters with movement, but there's a pretty big gap none the less) than our old version. Only on fight's like Brut (or KJ if you actually don't get knocked constantly which unfortunately is my life) sure, you have the opportunity to stack it very high, but just look at the fights in Naxxramas and then tell me how many of those we'll get that opportunity on. Granted that I'd love to keep DW like it is, but I would much rather see it's damage capability spread out around our other skills/talents instead of having to depend on those string of crits and constant attacks to keep me viable.
Last edited by Qruz : 10/25/08 at 12:33 PM.
At the very least patchwerk!
The numbers from beta have hunters on top most of the time with warriors a close second...
I do believe we'll all be nerfed though because blizz has said in the past that 5k dps would be ridiculous in first tier content of WoLK (I don't remember where that post is...) and there are hunters hitting over 6k dps in naxx... So I think a lot of the highest dpsers currently will be nerfed to be more in like with the rest of the classes in the 3-4k dps range.
The numbers from beta have hunters on top most of the time with warriors a close second...
I do believe we'll all be nerfed though because blizz has said in the past that 5k dps would be ridiculous in first tier content of WoLK (I don't remember where that post is...) and there are hunters hitting over 6k dps in naxx... So I think a lot of the highest dpsers currently will be nerfed to be more in like with the rest of the classes in the 3-4k dps range.
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Originally Posted by Qruz
. The thing that annoys me with DW atm is that faced with a movement encounter, or f.ex Muru where you face many mobs which die quickly, you're stuck with Deep Wounds barely more potent (ok, that's hardly fair, it's three very good talent points spent even for encounters with movement, but there's a pretty big gap none the less) than our old version. Only on fight's like Brut (or KJ if you actually don't get knocked constantly which unfortunately is my life) sure, you have the opportunity to stack it very high, but just look at the fights in Naxxramas and then tell me how many of those we'll get that opportunity on. Granted that I'd love to keep DW like it is, but I would much rather see it's damage capability spread out around our other skills/talents instead of having to depend on those string of crits and constant attacks to keep me viable.
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Edited onPatch 2.4.3
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Originally Posted by Shha
That part shows you dont really understand current DW mechanics. In fact DW are MORE potent on movement encounters since they have chance to tick fully. On stationary encounters mob often dies with a huge stacked DW on it. DW only FEELS more powerful on stationary encounters cause it stacks. But stacking != more damage. On a movement fight i get 1000 ticks and they tick every second. On brutallus i get 5k ticks but they tick every 5 or so (thats why they stack so high - you crit so often they dont have time to actually "tick" before refreshing).
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It's quite a simple comparison, watch WWS, watch percentages of total damage, deep wounds will be lower percentage wise on movement / target swapping fights.
What I don't really get from your little argument there is, how would you crit less often just because the boss is moving? What I meant with "movement" based encouters (I'll give it to you, I used that term loosely) was more encounters where you had to avoid AoE/were unable to sustain a high enough DPS time to keep DW up at all, let alone stack it up than encounters where you have to follow a moving boss.
Last edited by Qruz : 10/25/08 at 4:17 PM.
Well for example on felmyst DW damage is higher then brutallus for me. The main thing is though - stationary fights like brutallus let you always have every possible totem/buff up.
Interesting idea...
Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft
With a build like like this, how could anything else really compete... assuming execution glyph is present...
Stacking hit/haste would provide pretty solid SD uptime, and Deathwish for obvious purposes.
Edit: This would be at 80... and I don't have beta to play with it myself.... thoughts?
Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft
With a build like like this, how could anything else really compete... assuming execution glyph is present...
Stacking hit/haste would provide pretty solid SD uptime, and Deathwish for obvious purposes.
Edit: This would be at 80... and I don't have beta to play with it myself.... thoughts?
Edited onPatch 2.4.3
edit. Nvm
Last edited by Zeiten : 10/26/08 at 9:35 AM.
dw dmg should be even more insane at lvl 80 with (the buffed version) TG, fast 1.3 offhand dagger and a 2hand 3.7 mainhand
hum i don't think so, here is my M'uru wws Wow Web Stats
sure the deep wounds dmg-percentage was lower, but only because of all the ww's and cleave's.
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Originally Posted by Qruz
It's quite a simple comparison, watch WWS, watch percentages of total damage, deep wounds will be lower percentage wise on movement / target swapping fights.
What I don't really get from your little argument there is, how would you crit less often just because the boss is moving? What I meant with "movement" based encouters (I'll give it to you, I used that term loosely) was more encounters where you had to avoid AoE/were unable to sustain a high enough DPS time to keep DW up at all, let alone stack it up than encounters where you have to follow a moving boss. |
hum i don't think so, here is my M'uru wws Wow Web Stats
sure the deep wounds dmg-percentage was lower, but only because of all the ww's and cleave's.
Considering they "fixed" the OH DW presumably with this fight , it doesnt seem to be the case.
With the reports from people testing new beta build (and mostly confirming what I observer), the DW damage was lowered so harshly from the OH that overall damage in your WWS example zodd would be lower by over 60% - aka your damage would be lower but over 1000 dps, at ~3800 dps, and DW contribution would be ~17%.
Right now it seems Blizzard "overdid" with fixing the "fast OH DW bug", and offhand DW are from 4 to 2.5 times too low. Also Bloodthirst DW seem to use this extremely low OH calculation further dipping the DW damage. However even using the optimistic calculations about final DW , it seems Blizzard decided to cut OH DW damage to normal proportions - aka I wouldnt really expect more then 3900 dps in case of report like yours.
Edit : that didnt include the hopefully fixing of "BT Deep wound bug" , which could add another 100.
With the reports from people testing new beta build (and mostly confirming what I observer), the DW damage was lowered so harshly from the OH that overall damage in your WWS example zodd would be lower by over 60% - aka your damage would be lower but over 1000 dps, at ~3800 dps, and DW contribution would be ~17%.
Right now it seems Blizzard "overdid" with fixing the "fast OH DW bug", and offhand DW are from 4 to 2.5 times too low. Also Bloodthirst DW seem to use this extremely low OH calculation further dipping the DW damage. However even using the optimistic calculations about final DW , it seems Blizzard decided to cut OH DW damage to normal proportions - aka I wouldnt really expect more then 3900 dps in case of report like yours.
Edit : that didnt include the hopefully fixing of "BT Deep wound bug" , which could add another 100.
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Originally Posted by ZODD1
dw dmg should be even more insane at lvl 80 with (the buffed version) TG, fast 1.3 offhand dagger and a 2hand 3.7 mainhand
hum i don't think so, here is my M'uru wws Wow Web Stats sure the deep wounds dmg-percentage was lower, but only because of all the ww's and cleave's. |
Well fortunately for me I don't need to depend on your reports as I have my own tyvm. You obviously depend more on DW doing your job for you than I do, just looking at your Brut fight you'd be doing 2800 DPS not counting deep wounds whereas I'd be lying around 3250. Granted that I might've been deluded by grandeur when I took it on myself to generalize based on my own results, however, I stand by what I said and one lone report won't change that as you're trying to convince me that a fight which you spent mostly DPSing M'uru cleaving and WWing adds most likely tanked ontop of him should count towards "fights with target swapping"? Get ahold of yourself, I was refering to when you actually had to do that fight properly.
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Originally Posted by Qruz
It's quite a simple comparison, watch WWS, watch percentages of total damage, deep wounds will be lower percentage wise on movement / target swapping fights.
What I don't really get from your little argument there is, how would you crit less often just because the boss is moving? What I meant with "movement" based encouters (I'll give it to you, I used that term loosely) was more encounters where you had to avoid AoE/were unable to sustain a high enough DPS time to keep DW up at all, let alone stack it up than encounters where you have to follow a moving boss. |
I wonder is there any working swing timer after 3.0? I would really want to add a MS before SD if there is still 2 sec before next white attack. It seems quartz and Doc's swingtimers are not updated for the slam change.
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Originally Posted by Qruz
Well fortunately for me I don't need to depend on your reports as I have my own tyvm. You obviously depend more on DW doing your job for you than I do, just looking at your Brut fight you'd be doing 2800 DPS not counting deep wounds whereas I'd be lying around 3250. Granted that I might've been deluded by grandeur when I took it on myself to generalize based on my own results, however, I stand by what I said and one lone report won't change that as you're trying to convince me that a fight which you spent mostly DPSing M'uru cleaving and WWing adds most likely tanked ontop of him should count towards "fights with target swapping"? Get ahold of yourself, I was refering to when you actually had to do that fight properly.
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1. On movement fights, you are more prone to losing huge aura crit buffs (totems, lotp) that will reduce your deep wounds.
2. There are more mob death events where deep wound damage is voided.
3. During movement, your BT/WW cooldowns continue to cycle. This means when you will show slightly higher contributions from those talents which do much more damage than their deep wound contributions (a crit BT is much higher damage than a crit OH hit, but they have the same deep wounds damage).
Also, just because someone is gearing and speccing to do higher deep wounds damage does not mean they are letting deep wounds "do [their] job for [them]."
So it's true that a faster OH improves the Deep Wounds now, right?
I was trying to switch between the slow/fast OH and, at least on dummies, slow OH still seemed to be better. I'll try switching them in tonight's SWP.
I was trying to switch between the slow/fast OH and, at least on dummies, slow OH still seemed to be better. I'll try switching them in tonight's SWP.
2 questions sticking my neck out.
how much dps increase with a paladin running devotion aura with the talent armored to the teeth?
any point to running 2h fury now or even dual-wield arms (not that there was before for that one but just in case)?
how much dps increase with a paladin running devotion aura with the talent armored to the teeth?
any point to running 2h fury now or even dual-wield arms (not that there was before for that one but just in case)?
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Originally Posted by wajcher
So it's true that a faster OH improves the Deep Wounds now, right?
I was trying to switch between the slow/fast OH and, at least on dummies, slow OH still seemed to be better. I'll try switching them in tonight's SWP. |
Edited onPatch 2.4.3
I got the wws reports now
Brutallus 4900 DPS, I guess 5k is possible, but I was constant over 90% threat with vigilance on me.
Wow Web Stats
KJ 4500 DPS
Wow Web Stats
Brutallus 4900 DPS, I guess 5k is possible, but I was constant over 90% threat with vigilance on me.
Wow Web Stats
KJ 4500 DPS
Wow Web Stats
Last edited by ZODD1 : 10/24/08 at 10:38 AM.
http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?warr...00000000000000
Is the spec i'd go for dual glaives, should break 3.5k without a sweat and includes slam as a rage dump if you have a spare gcd. Feral druid or fury war with rampage is a must.
Is the spec i'd go for dual glaives, should break 3.5k without a sweat and includes slam as a rage dump if you have a spare gcd. Feral druid or fury war with rampage is a must.
That's some insane DPS ZODD. Only i can't quite realise how you're having threat problems, have you asked Paladins for Hand of Salvation?
hum, I guess no, didn't even knew they have such a stuff now.
While I only have an OH glaive, this week I had tried 15/46 for our SW raids (last week was TG) and I did 1200 more DPS on brut due to DW. Wow Web Stats
Pretty insane. And yeah, I ran into a huge threat issue, I went over and almost overtook one of our tanks, I yelled on vent for a hand of salvation. I was also intervened. It helped greatly for the rest of the fight.
Same thing almost happened on KJ too. I gave our lock tank a 20k threat lead and he told me towards the end that I was riding him.
Pretty insane. And yeah, I ran into a huge threat issue, I went over and almost overtook one of our tanks, I yelled on vent for a hand of salvation. I was also intervened. It helped greatly for the rest of the fight.
Same thing almost happened on KJ too. I gave our lock tank a 20k threat lead and he told me towards the end that I was riding him.
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Originally Posted by ZODD1
I got the wws reports now
Brutallus 4900 DPS, I guess 5k is possible, but I was constant over 90% threat with vigilance on me. Wow Web Stats KJ 4500 DPS Wow Web Stats |
Edited onPatch 2.4.3
If you actually had a look at the WWS, you'd see that he was using Bloodthirst, meaning it'd be a Fury build. It also lists the build at the top of his personal DPS track, if you click his name in the listing.
Insanely nice damage though, I wonder if 1H Fury still has some merit - also in Wrath?
Insanely nice damage though, I wonder if 1H Fury still has some merit - also in Wrath?
Last edited by Arantar : 10/25/08 at 5:03 AM.
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Originally Posted by Heaton
what spec was this? armory says 53/8 so I assume that
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Edited onPatch 2.4.3
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Originally Posted by Arantar
Insanely nice damage though, I wonder if 1H Fury still has some merit - also in Wrath?
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Brutallus 4752 DPS
On Brut I was spiking ontop of the tank the last 5%, as we're still "experimenting" he felt it'd be a good idea to give our ret pala Vigilance. The thing that annoys me with DW atm is that faced with a movement encounter, or f.ex Muru where you face many mobs which die quickly, you're stuck with Deep Wounds barely more potent (ok, that's hardly fair, it's three very good talent points spent even for encounters with movement, but there's a pretty big gap none the less) than our old version. Only on fight's like Brut (or KJ if you actually don't get knocked constantly which unfortunately is my life) sure, you have the opportunity to stack it very high, but just look at the fights in Naxxramas and then tell me how many of those we'll get that opportunity on. Granted that I'd love to keep DW like it is, but I would much rather see it's damage capability spread out around our other skills/talents instead of having to depend on those string of crits and constant attacks to keep me viable.
Last edited by Qruz : 10/25/08 at 12:33 PM.
At the very least patchwerk!
The numbers from beta have hunters on top most of the time with warriors a close second...
I do believe we'll all be nerfed though because blizz has said in the past that 5k dps would be ridiculous in first tier content of WoLK (I don't remember where that post is...) and there are hunters hitting over 6k dps in naxx... So I think a lot of the highest dpsers currently will be nerfed to be more in like with the rest of the classes in the 3-4k dps range.
The numbers from beta have hunters on top most of the time with warriors a close second...
I do believe we'll all be nerfed though because blizz has said in the past that 5k dps would be ridiculous in first tier content of WoLK (I don't remember where that post is...) and there are hunters hitting over 6k dps in naxx... So I think a lot of the highest dpsers currently will be nerfed to be more in like with the rest of the classes in the 3-4k dps range.
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Originally Posted by Qruz
. The thing that annoys me with DW atm is that faced with a movement encounter, or f.ex Muru where you face many mobs which die quickly, you're stuck with Deep Wounds barely more potent (ok, that's hardly fair, it's three very good talent points spent even for encounters with movement, but there's a pretty big gap none the less) than our old version. Only on fight's like Brut (or KJ if you actually don't get knocked constantly which unfortunately is my life) sure, you have the opportunity to stack it very high, but just look at the fights in Naxxramas and then tell me how many of those we'll get that opportunity on. Granted that I'd love to keep DW like it is, but I would much rather see it's damage capability spread out around our other skills/talents instead of having to depend on those string of crits and constant attacks to keep me viable.
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Edited onPatch 2.4.3
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Originally Posted by Shha
That part shows you dont really understand current DW mechanics. In fact DW are MORE potent on movement encounters since they have chance to tick fully. On stationary encounters mob often dies with a huge stacked DW on it. DW only FEELS more powerful on stationary encounters cause it stacks. But stacking != more damage. On a movement fight i get 1000 ticks and they tick every second. On brutallus i get 5k ticks but they tick every 5 or so (thats why they stack so high - you crit so often they dont have time to actually "tick" before refreshing).
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It's quite a simple comparison, watch WWS, watch percentages of total damage, deep wounds will be lower percentage wise on movement / target swapping fights.
What I don't really get from your little argument there is, how would you crit less often just because the boss is moving? What I meant with "movement" based encouters (I'll give it to you, I used that term loosely) was more encounters where you had to avoid AoE/were unable to sustain a high enough DPS time to keep DW up at all, let alone stack it up than encounters where you have to follow a moving boss.
Last edited by Qruz : 10/25/08 at 4:17 PM.
Well for example on felmyst DW damage is higher then brutallus for me. The main thing is though - stationary fights like brutallus let you always have every possible totem/buff up.
Interesting idea...
Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft
With a build like like this, how could anything else really compete... assuming execution glyph is present...
Stacking hit/haste would provide pretty solid SD uptime, and Deathwish for obvious purposes.
Edit: This would be at 80... and I don't have beta to play with it myself.... thoughts?
Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft
With a build like like this, how could anything else really compete... assuming execution glyph is present...
Stacking hit/haste would provide pretty solid SD uptime, and Deathwish for obvious purposes.
Edit: This would be at 80... and I don't have beta to play with it myself.... thoughts?
Edited onPatch 2.4.3
edit. Nvm
Last edited by Zeiten : 10/26/08 at 9:35 AM.
dw dmg should be even more insane at lvl 80 with (the buffed version) TG, fast 1.3 offhand dagger and a 2hand 3.7 mainhand
hum i don't think so, here is my M'uru wws Wow Web Stats
sure the deep wounds dmg-percentage was lower, but only because of all the ww's and cleave's.
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Originally Posted by Qruz
It's quite a simple comparison, watch WWS, watch percentages of total damage, deep wounds will be lower percentage wise on movement / target swapping fights.
What I don't really get from your little argument there is, how would you crit less often just because the boss is moving? What I meant with "movement" based encouters (I'll give it to you, I used that term loosely) was more encounters where you had to avoid AoE/were unable to sustain a high enough DPS time to keep DW up at all, let alone stack it up than encounters where you have to follow a moving boss. |
hum i don't think so, here is my M'uru wws Wow Web Stats
sure the deep wounds dmg-percentage was lower, but only because of all the ww's and cleave's.
Considering they "fixed" the OH DW presumably with this fight , it doesnt seem to be the case.
With the reports from people testing new beta build (and mostly confirming what I observer), the DW damage was lowered so harshly from the OH that overall damage in your WWS example zodd would be lower by over 60% - aka your damage would be lower but over 1000 dps, at ~3800 dps, and DW contribution would be ~17%.
Right now it seems Blizzard "overdid" with fixing the "fast OH DW bug", and offhand DW are from 4 to 2.5 times too low. Also Bloodthirst DW seem to use this extremely low OH calculation further dipping the DW damage. However even using the optimistic calculations about final DW , it seems Blizzard decided to cut OH DW damage to normal proportions - aka I wouldnt really expect more then 3900 dps in case of report like yours.
Edit : that didnt include the hopefully fixing of "BT Deep wound bug" , which could add another 100.
With the reports from people testing new beta build (and mostly confirming what I observer), the DW damage was lowered so harshly from the OH that overall damage in your WWS example zodd would be lower by over 60% - aka your damage would be lower but over 1000 dps, at ~3800 dps, and DW contribution would be ~17%.
Right now it seems Blizzard "overdid" with fixing the "fast OH DW bug", and offhand DW are from 4 to 2.5 times too low. Also Bloodthirst DW seem to use this extremely low OH calculation further dipping the DW damage. However even using the optimistic calculations about final DW , it seems Blizzard decided to cut OH DW damage to normal proportions - aka I wouldnt really expect more then 3900 dps in case of report like yours.
Edit : that didnt include the hopefully fixing of "BT Deep wound bug" , which could add another 100.
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Originally Posted by ZODD1
dw dmg should be even more insane at lvl 80 with (the buffed version) TG, fast 1.3 offhand dagger and a 2hand 3.7 mainhand
hum i don't think so, here is my M'uru wws Wow Web Stats sure the deep wounds dmg-percentage was lower, but only because of all the ww's and cleave's. |
Well fortunately for me I don't need to depend on your reports as I have my own tyvm. You obviously depend more on DW doing your job for you than I do, just looking at your Brut fight you'd be doing 2800 DPS not counting deep wounds whereas I'd be lying around 3250. Granted that I might've been deluded by grandeur when I took it on myself to generalize based on my own results, however, I stand by what I said and one lone report won't change that as you're trying to convince me that a fight which you spent mostly DPSing M'uru cleaving and WWing adds most likely tanked ontop of him should count towards "fights with target swapping"? Get ahold of yourself, I was refering to when you actually had to do that fight properly.
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Originally Posted by Qruz
It's quite a simple comparison, watch WWS, watch percentages of total damage, deep wounds will be lower percentage wise on movement / target swapping fights.
What I don't really get from your little argument there is, how would you crit less often just because the boss is moving? What I meant with "movement" based encouters (I'll give it to you, I used that term loosely) was more encounters where you had to avoid AoE/were unable to sustain a high enough DPS time to keep DW up at all, let alone stack it up than encounters where you have to follow a moving boss. |
I wonder is there any working swing timer after 3.0? I would really want to add a MS before SD if there is still 2 sec before next white attack. It seems quartz and Doc's swingtimers are not updated for the slam change.
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Originally Posted by Qruz
Well fortunately for me I don't need to depend on your reports as I have my own tyvm. You obviously depend more on DW doing your job for you than I do, just looking at your Brut fight you'd be doing 2800 DPS not counting deep wounds whereas I'd be lying around 3250. Granted that I might've been deluded by grandeur when I took it on myself to generalize based on my own results, however, I stand by what I said and one lone report won't change that as you're trying to convince me that a fight which you spent mostly DPSing M'uru cleaving and WWing adds most likely tanked ontop of him should count towards "fights with target swapping"? Get ahold of yourself, I was refering to when you actually had to do that fight properly.
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1. On movement fights, you are more prone to losing huge aura crit buffs (totems, lotp) that will reduce your deep wounds.
2. There are more mob death events where deep wound damage is voided.
3. During movement, your BT/WW cooldowns continue to cycle. This means when you will show slightly higher contributions from those talents which do much more damage than their deep wound contributions (a crit BT is much higher damage than a crit OH hit, but they have the same deep wounds damage).
Also, just because someone is gearing and speccing to do higher deep wounds damage does not mean they are letting deep wounds "do [their] job for [them]."
So it's true that a faster OH improves the Deep Wounds now, right?
I was trying to switch between the slow/fast OH and, at least on dummies, slow OH still seemed to be better. I'll try switching them in tonight's SWP.
I was trying to switch between the slow/fast OH and, at least on dummies, slow OH still seemed to be better. I'll try switching them in tonight's SWP.
2 questions sticking my neck out.
how much dps increase with a paladin running devotion aura with the talent armored to the teeth?
any point to running 2h fury now or even dual-wield arms (not that there was before for that one but just in case)?
how much dps increase with a paladin running devotion aura with the talent armored to the teeth?
any point to running 2h fury now or even dual-wield arms (not that there was before for that one but just in case)?
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Originally Posted by wajcher
So it's true that a faster OH improves the Deep Wounds now, right?
I was trying to switch between the slow/fast OH and, at least on dummies, slow OH still seemed to be better. I'll try switching them in tonight's SWP. |
As of now Arms seems to be doing well/best for DPS, but I'm worried about Wotlk and it's continuation of being a viable spec. The last 10 talent points really can't improve anything I currently use. Is it basically a no-brainer that Fury and TG are the only viable specs for Wotlk or no?
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Originally Posted by Flytan
As of now Arms seems to be doing well/best for DPS, but I'm worried about Wotlk and it's continuation of being a viable spec. The last 10 talent points really can't improve anything I currently use. Is it basically a no-brainer that Fury and TG are the only viable specs for Wotlk or no?
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For PvE, it's probably not going to see the TG + Deep Wounds style increase, but Arms is already ahead by a bit so it should come roughly to par.
I found that if you download the OLD Doc's SwingerClub, and disable slam from resetting swing, you get a nearly working swing timer.
-- Constants.
local resetspells = {
[GetSpellInfo(845)] = true, -- Cleave
[GetSpellInfo(78)] = true, -- Heroic Strike
[GetSpellInfo(6807)] = true, -- Maul
[GetSpellInfo(2973)] = true, -- Raptor Strike
[GetSpellInfo(1464)] = false, -- Slam
[GetSpellInfo(24275)] = true, -- Hammer of Wrath
So how exactly does the 15/46/0 dps rotation work? I notice in Zodd's WWS that HS is like 15-25% of his damage and Deep Wounds being 30-35%.
Spam HS/BT/WW whenever its up, Slam on surges?
Spam HS/BT/WW whenever its up, Slam on surges?
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Originally Posted by 2Face
So how exactly does the 15/46/0 dps rotation work? I notice in Zodd's WWS that HS is like 15-25% of his damage and Deep Wounds being 30-35%.
Spam HS/BT/WW whenever its up, Slam on surges? |
Answering how would be with bloodsurge, well, it would be like you'll use it just after Bloodthirst if it pops. Rest is just the same.
Well so far DW arms holds the glory i think. Im not sure maybe I do somethign wrong but i never went over 3500 with 15/46. Today sunwell clear had me at 3800 brutallus where a stupid rogue pulled aggro and got me killed in the process (got ressed but no buffs etc), and 4500 on KJ as 52/9 with dual weapon spec axe/sword combo (najentus axe + s4 sword OH).
I feel on Brutallus I could easily go over 4500 or maybe get close to the warglaive rogue 4900ish records if i didnt die.
I feel on Brutallus I could easily go over 4500 or maybe get close to the warglaive rogue 4900ish records if i didnt die.
Thighs will change when they will implement latest changes in Wotlk.
I did some regemming/enchant changes and even downgrades in terms of ilvl to reach around 300 hit rating for TG. I did quite good yesterday (wws).
Now with 5% penalty I could swap most of the gems to 10str ones and use less hit oriented items. So in my opinion Titan Grip is ok and will get better when we reach level 80.
I did some regemming/enchant changes and even downgrades in terms of ilvl to reach around 300 hit rating for TG. I did quite good yesterday (wws).
Now with 5% penalty I could swap most of the gems to 10str ones and use less hit oriented items. So in my opinion Titan Grip is ok and will get better when we reach level 80.
Oh TG definitely wont reach current dual wield arms effectiveness. Not even close at 70. No DW, no executes... TG right now caps out around 3k dps +/- 10% for RNG and superb gear. The changes arent close to significant enough to get it over 4.5k.
Granted i find it "ok" since current DW arms effectiveness is simply silly. Warglaive warriors doing 15/46 and getting 4900 is silly enough, but if i can get close to that using najentus axe and heroic MgT dagger (correction from previous post, this week i switched from sword to just dagger oh to maximize sd/dw procs), thats simply heavily broken. 3k seems like "cap" for most of classes anyway so warriors doing well over 4k had to be nerfed (well didnt HAD granted how we know lvl 70 dps doesnt matter, but it was clear that once warrior stats reach similiar level in wotlk the situation would repeat).
As TG even with buffs ill have to heavily work to get on top of dps, right now I can do it without consumables/watching tv.
Granted i find it "ok" since current DW arms effectiveness is simply silly. Warglaive warriors doing 15/46 and getting 4900 is silly enough, but if i can get close to that using najentus axe and heroic MgT dagger (correction from previous post, this week i switched from sword to just dagger oh to maximize sd/dw procs), thats simply heavily broken. 3k seems like "cap" for most of classes anyway so warriors doing well over 4k had to be nerfed (well didnt HAD granted how we know lvl 70 dps doesnt matter, but it was clear that once warrior stats reach similiar level in wotlk the situation would repeat).
As TG even with buffs ill have to heavily work to get on top of dps, right now I can do it without consumables/watching tv.
3800 for me to on Brutallus fight - with no food, no elixir or flask up, no sharpening stones, no scrolls and no haste potions - all this because i have some aggro problems (our tank doing something wrong maybe)
With my gear i thing 4500 is no problem, just givme some 3500+ TPS
With my gear i thing 4500 is no problem, just givme some 3500+ TPS
Did anyone see the blue post today regarding warrior vs rogue dps?
I clearly remember blizzard saying the hybrids will be able to do as much dps as the pure classes, given we don't bring unique buffs with the new buff system. "Sometimes" doesn't sound very reassuring to me. Given that
Where does that leave dps warriors?
PS. I assume the blue post is referring to level 80 dps.
| If you have two players of equal skill and gear on a fight that doesn't favor the mechanics of one over the other, then the rogue should do more damage. The delta is smaller than it used to be though, so very good warriors will sometimes "win the meters." |
- we are harder to heal
- designed to do less damage generally
- our three major buffs blood frenzy (combat rogues), rampage (feral druids) and battle shout (paladins) are covered by common classes found in 25 man
Where does that leave dps warriors?
PS. I assume the blue post is referring to level 80 dps.
You seem to be forgetting, that off-specced warriors are the next best choice to apply the major armor debuff in a raid without a def-specced warrior, because:
- For a rogue the DPS-loss is greater (5CP per application vs refreshing the full stack).
- The hunter pet requires A: the hunter to spec 51 BM (as it stands inferior to the other specs in a raid) B: the worm also being an inferior (and uglier) pet.
- For a rogue the DPS-loss is greater (5CP per application vs refreshing the full stack).
- The hunter pet requires A: the hunter to spec 51 BM (as it stands inferior to the other specs in a raid) B: the worm also being an inferior (and uglier) pet.
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Originally Posted by ZeTodu
3800 for me to on Brutallus fight - with no food, no elixir or flask up, no sharpening stones, no scrolls and no haste potions - all this because i have some aggro problems (our tank doing something wrong maybe)
With my gear i thing 4500 is no problem, just givme some 3500+ TPS |
Scrolls dont work anymore, and sharpening stones/elixir doesnt give too much to arms DW. You still lack a small bit of gear to 4500 but it shows how OP the spec is. If it makes any sence (since i expect patch nerfing SD to the ground next week), farm Vexallus dagger from MgT. Trust me even without weapon spec and 87 dps, this weapon alone will give you 200dps. Thats the current DW model/SD model effect for fast OHands
, and 1.3 dagger with haste on it is about as good as it gets.|
Originally Posted by Shha
Get hand of salv/intervene/vigilance etc.
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Ill try to intervane with other dps warrior, tnx for advise!
p.s. Tonight - start to farm MGt Heroic
last question to you Shha - wich spec you will use for leveling 70-80!
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Originally Posted by LittleHamster
Did anyone see the blue post today regarding warrior vs rogue dps?
I clearly remember blizzard saying the hybrids will be able to do as much dps as the pure classes, given we don't bring unique buffs with the new buff system. "Sometimes" doesn't sound very reassuring to me. Given that
Where does that leave dps warriors? PS. I assume the blue post is referring to level 80 dps. |
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Originally Posted by Macar
We give AP buff to the melee group, and also (with Fury spec) 5% crit from Rampage. Those buffs alone should make us viable vs Rogues.
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Technically its more than a rogue brings, but not by much.
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Originally Posted by Vitalstatistix
And LotP has 100% uptime compared to Rampage - not to mention there are very few dps warriors not running 2H Arms or DW Arms right now.
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You read it wrong. LotP most definitely is raid-wide.
Edited onPatch 2.4.3
IIRC what I see in raids on live, only
aren't raid wide. I'm not sure about tremor totem since our shaman insists it is, while raid members claim they aren't getting it. For ferocious inspiration, our hunters say it being party only is a bug and will be fixed in 3.0.3. Drums don't exist at level 80.
Back to battle shout, I haven't used it once since 3.0. The only good blessings for dps warriors are kings and might. Other AP based classes want wisdom in addition of these two. I've never been in a raid with less than 3 paladins. (I get sanctuary as my 3rd, if you are curious). I have a question for those who run a raid group with less than 3 paladins. Can I do battle shout on top of blessings of might for the hunters? (Battle shout is less powerful then BoM just to stop us overriding it). Or do you just let your hunters go without wisdom?
- water totems from shaman - mana tide, mana spring
- tremor totem
- ferocious inspiration
- vampiric embrace (ie spriest healing)
- drums
aren't raid wide. I'm not sure about tremor totem since our shaman insists it is, while raid members claim they aren't getting it. For ferocious inspiration, our hunters say it being party only is a bug and will be fixed in 3.0.3. Drums don't exist at level 80.
Back to battle shout, I haven't used it once since 3.0. The only good blessings for dps warriors are kings and might. Other AP based classes want wisdom in addition of these two. I've never been in a raid with less than 3 paladins. (I get sanctuary as my 3rd, if you are curious). I have a question for those who run a raid group with less than 3 paladins. Can I do battle shout on top of blessings of might for the hunters? (Battle shout is less powerful then BoM just to stop us overriding it). Or do you just let your hunters go without wisdom?
Last edited by LittleHamster : 10/30/08 at 1:42 PM.
Edited onPatch 2.4.3
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Originally Posted by Shha
Well so far DW arms holds the glory i think. Im not sure maybe I do somethign wrong but i never went over 3500 with 15/46. Today sunwell clear had me at 3800 brutallus where a stupid rogue pulled aggro and got me killed in the process (got ressed but no buffs etc), and 4500 on KJ as 52/9 with dual weapon spec axe/sword combo (najentus axe + s4 sword OH).
I feel on Brutallus I could easily go over 4500 or maybe get close to the warglaive rogue 4900ish records if i didnt die. |
I'm wondering what rotation you're using to pull this off though, since I've never been DW arms before.
Is it just SD-Execute spam, and do you use HS/MS in the rotation anywhere?
Last edited by 2Face : 10/30/08 at 6:26 PM.
Edited onPatch 2.4.3
In Landsoul's dps spreadsheet post he mentioned that unless you have dual glaives it may be your worthwhile to start getting your titan's grip gear ready in the next patch. There seems to still be a lot of talk here about deep wounds, however, from my understanding on the beta/ptr right now deep wounds has been fixed and or broken in the sense that BT and ww are not working properly with it.
Has anyone been able to test TG vs DW in the latest build on PTR? I was unable to find an enhancement shaman and without one in my group TG seemed to keep me rage starved.
Has anyone been able to test TG vs DW in the latest build on PTR? I was unable to find an enhancement shaman and without one in my group TG seemed to keep me rage starved.
Last edited by chiznitz : 10/30/08 at 5:42 PM.
DPS records are very superficial now with the way DWounds works. The longer the fight is, the more DPS you will do. You could pull off probably > 6000 dps if you were the only one DPSing simply because the deep wounds keep getting higher since the probability of not critting for 6 seconds approaches 0. If you have fast kills, then you cannot really reach those numbers because your DWounds do not reach the full effect of throttling your DPS value.
Secondly, how are you finding practical boss tanks that can produce the TPS required to stay above you? 5K dps *.8*.9 (arms, vigilance) = 3600 consistent TPS. Are you waiting 20 seconds before you start attacking?
Secondly, how are you finding practical boss tanks that can produce the TPS required to stay above you? 5K dps *.8*.9 (arms, vigilance) = 3600 consistent TPS. Are you waiting 20 seconds before you start attacking?
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Originally Posted by landsoul
DPS records are very superficial now with the way DWounds works. The longer the fight is, the more DPS you will do. You could pull off probably > 6000 dps if you were the only one DPSing simply because the deep wounds keep getting higher since the probability of not critting for 6 seconds approaches 0. If you have fast kills, then you cannot really reach those numbers because your DWounds do not reach the full effect of throttling your DPS value.
Secondly, how are you finding practical boss tanks that can produce the TPS required to stay above you? 5K dps *.8*.9 (arms, vigilance) = 3600 consistent TPS. Are you waiting 20 seconds before you start attacking? |
|
Originally Posted by landsoul
DPS records are very superficial now with the way DWounds works. The longer the fight is, the more DPS you will do. You could pull off probably > 6000 dps if you were the only one DPSing simply because the deep wounds keep getting higher since the probability of not critting for 6 seconds approaches 0. If you have fast kills, then you cannot really reach those numbers because your DWounds do not reach the full effect of throttling your DPS value.
Secondly, how are you finding practical boss tanks that can produce the TPS required to stay above you? 5K dps *.8*.9 (arms, vigilance) = 3600 consistent TPS. Are you waiting 20 seconds before you start attacking? |
KJ fights are already around 4 min easily.
As for tanking.
a) We had tanks do 3.6k tps. Remember that vigilance gives them your threat, so if you rock high tps their goes up to. its effectively a 0.8 multiplier.
b) You can have a voidwalker tank for 15k tps :P
c) You are a NE ! L2Shadowmeld
On Beta right now SD is 9% hit instead of 30% crit. I'm no mathematician, but from a logical point of view, after considering raid buffs, this is a nerf. On top of that, GC stated the idea of capping Executes at 50 rage (didn't state if we retain the excess rage or if it goes to waste, but I'm assume we'll get to keep the excess rage). How would these changes affect DW arms dps in the long run?
Source: WotLK Beta (US-English) Forums -> So whats the deal with sudden death GC
Source: WotLK Beta (US-English) Forums -> So whats the deal with sudden death GC
well between the nerf to DW and that it would severly gut the spec. Right now Executes are ~40% of my dmg and DW are 35% (well maybe 35/35 is more common). I would say assuming they fix OH/Execute DW bug in beta right now, DW damage would go down to at most 20%. Executes would go to 9% from ~21% on hit, however i would switch to a fast/fast setup giving me ~20% more chances (including unchanged OH/specials). So overall its easily 30% nerf to the build with a very rough math. It STILL seems somewhat competitive to TG tbh, but i believe it will fall behind.
I really hope they go back to a better SD and nerf DW arms in other ways. Its better simply because it SCALES with multiple stats, unlike 2h arms. Also some talents make little sense. Blood Frenzy is insanely good talent for Dual wield builds - 6% haste for 2 talents is huge (close to flurry), and 4 % damage on top. And thats for build that actually procs off autoattacks so 6% haste = ~6% more damage. At same time BF doesnt give any significant buff to 2h arms.
I really hope they go back to a better SD and nerf DW arms in other ways. Its better simply because it SCALES with multiple stats, unlike 2h arms. Also some talents make little sense. Blood Frenzy is insanely good talent for Dual wield builds - 6% haste for 2 talents is huge (close to flurry), and 4 % damage on top. And thats for build that actually procs off autoattacks so 6% haste = ~6% more damage. At same time BF doesnt give any significant buff to 2h arms.
As of now Arms seems to be doing well/best for DPS, but I'm worried about Wotlk and it's continuation of being a viable spec. The last 10 talent points really can't improve anything I currently use. Is it basically a no-brainer that Fury and TG are the only viable specs for Wotlk or no?
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Originally Posted by Flytan
As of now Arms seems to be doing well/best for DPS, but I'm worried about Wotlk and it's continuation of being a viable spec. The last 10 talent points really can't improve anything I currently use. Is it basically a no-brainer that Fury and TG are the only viable specs for Wotlk or no?
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For PvE, it's probably not going to see the TG + Deep Wounds style increase, but Arms is already ahead by a bit so it should come roughly to par.
I found that if you download the OLD Doc's SwingerClub, and disable slam from resetting swing, you get a nearly working swing timer.
-- Constants.
local resetspells = {
[GetSpellInfo(845)] = true, -- Cleave
[GetSpellInfo(78)] = true, -- Heroic Strike
[GetSpellInfo(6807)] = true, -- Maul
[GetSpellInfo(2973)] = true, -- Raptor Strike
[GetSpellInfo(1464)] = false, -- Slam
[GetSpellInfo(24275)] = true, -- Hammer of Wrath
So how exactly does the 15/46/0 dps rotation work? I notice in Zodd's WWS that HS is like 15-25% of his damage and Deep Wounds being 30-35%.
Spam HS/BT/WW whenever its up, Slam on surges?
Spam HS/BT/WW whenever its up, Slam on surges?
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Originally Posted by 2Face
So how exactly does the 15/46/0 dps rotation work? I notice in Zodd's WWS that HS is like 15-25% of his damage and Deep Wounds being 30-35%.
Spam HS/BT/WW whenever its up, Slam on surges? |
Answering how would be with bloodsurge, well, it would be like you'll use it just after Bloodthirst if it pops. Rest is just the same.
Well so far DW arms holds the glory i think. Im not sure maybe I do somethign wrong but i never went over 3500 with 15/46. Today sunwell clear had me at 3800 brutallus where a stupid rogue pulled aggro and got me killed in the process (got ressed but no buffs etc), and 4500 on KJ as 52/9 with dual weapon spec axe/sword combo (najentus axe + s4 sword OH).
I feel on Brutallus I could easily go over 4500 or maybe get close to the warglaive rogue 4900ish records if i didnt die.
I feel on Brutallus I could easily go over 4500 or maybe get close to the warglaive rogue 4900ish records if i didnt die.
Thighs will change when they will implement latest changes in Wotlk.
I did some regemming/enchant changes and even downgrades in terms of ilvl to reach around 300 hit rating for TG. I did quite good yesterday (wws).
Now with 5% penalty I could swap most of the gems to 10str ones and use less hit oriented items. So in my opinion Titan Grip is ok and will get better when we reach level 80.
I did some regemming/enchant changes and even downgrades in terms of ilvl to reach around 300 hit rating for TG. I did quite good yesterday (wws).
Now with 5% penalty I could swap most of the gems to 10str ones and use less hit oriented items. So in my opinion Titan Grip is ok and will get better when we reach level 80.
Oh TG definitely wont reach current dual wield arms effectiveness. Not even close at 70. No DW, no executes... TG right now caps out around 3k dps +/- 10% for RNG and superb gear. The changes arent close to significant enough to get it over 4.5k.
Granted i find it "ok" since current DW arms effectiveness is simply silly. Warglaive warriors doing 15/46 and getting 4900 is silly enough, but if i can get close to that using najentus axe and heroic MgT dagger (correction from previous post, this week i switched from sword to just dagger oh to maximize sd/dw procs), thats simply heavily broken. 3k seems like "cap" for most of classes anyway so warriors doing well over 4k had to be nerfed (well didnt HAD granted how we know lvl 70 dps doesnt matter, but it was clear that once warrior stats reach similiar level in wotlk the situation would repeat).
As TG even with buffs ill have to heavily work to get on top of dps, right now I can do it without consumables/watching tv.
Granted i find it "ok" since current DW arms effectiveness is simply silly. Warglaive warriors doing 15/46 and getting 4900 is silly enough, but if i can get close to that using najentus axe and heroic MgT dagger (correction from previous post, this week i switched from sword to just dagger oh to maximize sd/dw procs), thats simply heavily broken. 3k seems like "cap" for most of classes anyway so warriors doing well over 4k had to be nerfed (well didnt HAD granted how we know lvl 70 dps doesnt matter, but it was clear that once warrior stats reach similiar level in wotlk the situation would repeat).
As TG even with buffs ill have to heavily work to get on top of dps, right now I can do it without consumables/watching tv.
3800 for me to on Brutallus fight - with no food, no elixir or flask up, no sharpening stones, no scrolls and no haste potions - all this because i have some aggro problems (our tank doing something wrong maybe)
With my gear i thing 4500 is no problem, just givme some 3500+ TPS
With my gear i thing 4500 is no problem, just givme some 3500+ TPS
Did anyone see the blue post today regarding warrior vs rogue dps?
I clearly remember blizzard saying the hybrids will be able to do as much dps as the pure classes, given we don't bring unique buffs with the new buff system. "Sometimes" doesn't sound very reassuring to me. Given that
Where does that leave dps warriors?
PS. I assume the blue post is referring to level 80 dps.
| If you have two players of equal skill and gear on a fight that doesn't favor the mechanics of one over the other, then the rogue should do more damage. The delta is smaller than it used to be though, so very good warriors will sometimes "win the meters." |
- we are harder to heal
- designed to do less damage generally
- our three major buffs blood frenzy (combat rogues), rampage (feral druids) and battle shout (paladins) are covered by common classes found in 25 man
Where does that leave dps warriors?
PS. I assume the blue post is referring to level 80 dps.
You seem to be forgetting, that off-specced warriors are the next best choice to apply the major armor debuff in a raid without a def-specced warrior, because:
- For a rogue the DPS-loss is greater (5CP per application vs refreshing the full stack).
- The hunter pet requires A: the hunter to spec 51 BM (as it stands inferior to the other specs in a raid) B: the worm also being an inferior (and uglier) pet.
- For a rogue the DPS-loss is greater (5CP per application vs refreshing the full stack).
- The hunter pet requires A: the hunter to spec 51 BM (as it stands inferior to the other specs in a raid) B: the worm also being an inferior (and uglier) pet.
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Originally Posted by ZeTodu
3800 for me to on Brutallus fight - with no food, no elixir or flask up, no sharpening stones, no scrolls and no haste potions - all this because i have some aggro problems (our tank doing something wrong maybe)
With my gear i thing 4500 is no problem, just givme some 3500+ TPS |
Scrolls dont work anymore, and sharpening stones/elixir doesnt give too much to arms DW. You still lack a small bit of gear to 4500 but it shows how OP the spec is. If it makes any sence (since i expect patch nerfing SD to the ground next week), farm Vexallus dagger from MgT. Trust me even without weapon spec and 87 dps, this weapon alone will give you 200dps. Thats the current DW model/SD model effect for fast OHands
, and 1.3 dagger with haste on it is about as good as it gets.|
Originally Posted by Shha
Get hand of salv/intervene/vigilance etc.
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Ill try to intervane with other dps warrior, tnx for advise!
p.s. Tonight - start to farm MGt Heroic
last question to you Shha - wich spec you will use for leveling 70-80!
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Originally Posted by LittleHamster
Did anyone see the blue post today regarding warrior vs rogue dps?
I clearly remember blizzard saying the hybrids will be able to do as much dps as the pure classes, given we don't bring unique buffs with the new buff system. "Sometimes" doesn't sound very reassuring to me. Given that
Where does that leave dps warriors? PS. I assume the blue post is referring to level 80 dps. |
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Originally Posted by Macar
We give AP buff to the melee group, and also (with Fury spec) 5% crit from Rampage. Those buffs alone should make us viable vs Rogues.
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Technically its more than a rogue brings, but not by much.
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Originally Posted by Vitalstatistix
And LotP has 100% uptime compared to Rampage - not to mention there are very few dps warriors not running 2H Arms or DW Arms right now.
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You read it wrong. LotP most definitely is raid-wide.
Edited onPatch 2.4.3
IIRC what I see in raids on live, only
aren't raid wide. I'm not sure about tremor totem since our shaman insists it is, while raid members claim they aren't getting it. For ferocious inspiration, our hunters say it being party only is a bug and will be fixed in 3.0.3. Drums don't exist at level 80.
Back to battle shout, I haven't used it once since 3.0. The only good blessings for dps warriors are kings and might. Other AP based classes want wisdom in addition of these two. I've never been in a raid with less than 3 paladins. (I get sanctuary as my 3rd, if you are curious). I have a question for those who run a raid group with less than 3 paladins. Can I do battle shout on top of blessings of might for the hunters? (Battle shout is less powerful then BoM just to stop us overriding it). Or do you just let your hunters go without wisdom?
- water totems from shaman - mana tide, mana spring
- tremor totem
- ferocious inspiration
- vampiric embrace (ie spriest healing)
- drums
aren't raid wide. I'm not sure about tremor totem since our shaman insists it is, while raid members claim they aren't getting it. For ferocious inspiration, our hunters say it being party only is a bug and will be fixed in 3.0.3. Drums don't exist at level 80.
Back to battle shout, I haven't used it once since 3.0. The only good blessings for dps warriors are kings and might. Other AP based classes want wisdom in addition of these two. I've never been in a raid with less than 3 paladins. (I get sanctuary as my 3rd, if you are curious). I have a question for those who run a raid group with less than 3 paladins. Can I do battle shout on top of blessings of might for the hunters? (Battle shout is less powerful then BoM just to stop us overriding it). Or do you just let your hunters go without wisdom?
Last edited by LittleHamster : 10/30/08 at 1:42 PM.
Edited onPatch 2.4.3
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Originally Posted by Shha
Well so far DW arms holds the glory i think. Im not sure maybe I do somethign wrong but i never went over 3500 with 15/46. Today sunwell clear had me at 3800 brutallus where a stupid rogue pulled aggro and got me killed in the process (got ressed but no buffs etc), and 4500 on KJ as 52/9 with dual weapon spec axe/sword combo (najentus axe + s4 sword OH).
I feel on Brutallus I could easily go over 4500 or maybe get close to the warglaive rogue 4900ish records if i didnt die. |
I'm wondering what rotation you're using to pull this off though, since I've never been DW arms before.
Is it just SD-Execute spam, and do you use HS/MS in the rotation anywhere?
Last edited by 2Face : 10/30/08 at 6:26 PM.
Edited onPatch 2.4.3
In Landsoul's dps spreadsheet post he mentioned that unless you have dual glaives it may be your worthwhile to start getting your titan's grip gear ready in the next patch. There seems to still be a lot of talk here about deep wounds, however, from my understanding on the beta/ptr right now deep wounds has been fixed and or broken in the sense that BT and ww are not working properly with it.
Has anyone been able to test TG vs DW in the latest build on PTR? I was unable to find an enhancement shaman and without one in my group TG seemed to keep me rage starved.
Has anyone been able to test TG vs DW in the latest build on PTR? I was unable to find an enhancement shaman and without one in my group TG seemed to keep me rage starved.
Last edited by chiznitz : 10/30/08 at 5:42 PM.
DPS records are very superficial now with the way DWounds works. The longer the fight is, the more DPS you will do. You could pull off probably > 6000 dps if you were the only one DPSing simply because the deep wounds keep getting higher since the probability of not critting for 6 seconds approaches 0. If you have fast kills, then you cannot really reach those numbers because your DWounds do not reach the full effect of throttling your DPS value.
Secondly, how are you finding practical boss tanks that can produce the TPS required to stay above you? 5K dps *.8*.9 (arms, vigilance) = 3600 consistent TPS. Are you waiting 20 seconds before you start attacking?
Secondly, how are you finding practical boss tanks that can produce the TPS required to stay above you? 5K dps *.8*.9 (arms, vigilance) = 3600 consistent TPS. Are you waiting 20 seconds before you start attacking?
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Originally Posted by landsoul
DPS records are very superficial now with the way DWounds works. The longer the fight is, the more DPS you will do. You could pull off probably > 6000 dps if you were the only one DPSing simply because the deep wounds keep getting higher since the probability of not critting for 6 seconds approaches 0. If you have fast kills, then you cannot really reach those numbers because your DWounds do not reach the full effect of throttling your DPS value.
Secondly, how are you finding practical boss tanks that can produce the TPS required to stay above you? 5K dps *.8*.9 (arms, vigilance) = 3600 consistent TPS. Are you waiting 20 seconds before you start attacking? |
|
Originally Posted by landsoul
DPS records are very superficial now with the way DWounds works. The longer the fight is, the more DPS you will do. You could pull off probably > 6000 dps if you were the only one DPSing simply because the deep wounds keep getting higher since the probability of not critting for 6 seconds approaches 0. If you have fast kills, then you cannot really reach those numbers because your DWounds do not reach the full effect of throttling your DPS value.
Secondly, how are you finding practical boss tanks that can produce the TPS required to stay above you? 5K dps *.8*.9 (arms, vigilance) = 3600 consistent TPS. Are you waiting 20 seconds before you start attacking? |
KJ fights are already around 4 min easily.
As for tanking.
a) We had tanks do 3.6k tps. Remember that vigilance gives them your threat, so if you rock high tps their goes up to. its effectively a 0.8 multiplier.
b) You can have a voidwalker tank for 15k tps :P
c) You are a NE ! L2Shadowmeld
On Beta right now SD is 9% hit instead of 30% crit. I'm no mathematician, but from a logical point of view, after considering raid buffs, this is a nerf. On top of that, GC stated the idea of capping Executes at 50 rage (didn't state if we retain the excess rage or if it goes to waste, but I'm assume we'll get to keep the excess rage). How would these changes affect DW arms dps in the long run?
Source: WotLK Beta (US-English) Forums -> So whats the deal with sudden death GC
Source: WotLK Beta (US-English) Forums -> So whats the deal with sudden death GC
well between the nerf to DW and that it would severly gut the spec. Right now Executes are ~40% of my dmg and DW are 35% (well maybe 35/35 is more common). I would say assuming they fix OH/Execute DW bug in beta right now, DW damage would go down to at most 20%. Executes would go to 9% from ~21% on hit, however i would switch to a fast/fast setup giving me ~20% more chances (including unchanged OH/specials). So overall its easily 30% nerf to the build with a very rough math. It STILL seems somewhat competitive to TG tbh, but i believe it will fall behind.
I really hope they go back to a better SD and nerf DW arms in other ways. Its better simply because it SCALES with multiple stats, unlike 2h arms. Also some talents make little sense. Blood Frenzy is insanely good talent for Dual wield builds - 6% haste for 2 talents is huge (close to flurry), and 4 % damage on top. And thats for build that actually procs off autoattacks so 6% haste = ~6% more damage. At same time BF doesnt give any significant buff to 2h arms.
I really hope they go back to a better SD and nerf DW arms in other ways. Its better simply because it SCALES with multiple stats, unlike 2h arms. Also some talents make little sense. Blood Frenzy is insanely good talent for Dual wield builds - 6% haste for 2 talents is huge (close to flurry), and 4 % damage on top. And thats for build that actually procs off autoattacks so 6% haste = ~6% more damage. At same time BF doesnt give any significant buff to 2h arms.
Edited onPatch 2.4.3
Spec question
I read most of this thread for the last month or so. I am trying to get back up to speed.
I released i got two question.
I armored several peoples and I see quite a few doing 53/8/0 or 52/9/0 dual wielding two 1H and no point in 2H spec and i am trying to understand why.
How does this compare to a 16/45/0 build, is it that good?
What is the probability upcoming nerf/fix/change to Deep Wound with slow MH/fast OF on PTR? Has the change already been made to lower the dps of this setup? Is it worth enchanting Swiftsteel Bludgeon to try out with a dragon strike?
(Sorry this wasn't really clear; I had to split this in two groups of question)
I released i got two question.
I armored several peoples and I see quite a few doing 53/8/0 or 52/9/0 dual wielding two 1H and no point in 2H spec and i am trying to understand why.
How does this compare to a 16/45/0 build, is it that good?
What is the probability upcoming nerf/fix/change to Deep Wound with slow MH/fast OF on PTR? Has the change already been made to lower the dps of this setup? Is it worth enchanting Swiftsteel Bludgeon to try out with a dragon strike?
(Sorry this wasn't really clear; I had to split this in two groups of question)
Last edited by Opta : 11/04/08 at 11:34 AM.
There were several bugs with Deep Wounds. We believe we have those all fixed now so we need to observe the changes for a bit before we decide if any further changes are warranted.
Ghostcrawler
Blizzard Poster
Is there a new build? And for what kind of fix he is talking about?
Ghostcrawler
Blizzard Poster
Is there a new build? And for what kind of fix he is talking about?
Someone knows if the build deployed in USA servers at this moment have the Deep Wound that ignores ranks 2 and 3? I think that is the build 9183. I'm not sure if this one was the build tested in PTR as 3.0.3 or not.
Edited onPatch 2.4.3
Wrong topic for this reply. Please remove.
Last edited by Shha : 11/04/08 at 8:42 AM.
9155 i think was last beta one.
Deep wounds nerf?
Sorry if this was posted somewhere, but I tried using search and also going back several pages on the relevant warrior threads and couldn't find specifics (nor is it in the patch notes). What is the deep wounds nerf that is going into effect? Some folks were theorizing about how to reduce the slow/fast setups with deep wounds, but I could not find anything concrete about what Blizzard was planning..
What was planned:
OH crits cause OH deep wounds based on OH weapon damage
What ended happening
OH crits cause OH deep wounds based on OH weapon damage, but only as if you have rank 1 of the talent (rank 2 and 3 didnt change anything).
What we DONT KNOW if was planned
Crits with special abilities not using equipped weapon damage (Shield Slam, Execute, Bloodthirst) changed to use the "artificial weapon damage" attached to the skill - aka very very small values.
I dont believe its what Blizzard planned, but thats what was in 9155
Patch build is later it might be fixed on both aspects.
OH crits cause OH deep wounds based on OH weapon damage
What ended happening
OH crits cause OH deep wounds based on OH weapon damage, but only as if you have rank 1 of the talent (rank 2 and 3 didnt change anything).
What we DONT KNOW if was planned
Crits with special abilities not using equipped weapon damage (Shield Slam, Execute, Bloodthirst) changed to use the "artificial weapon damage" attached to the skill - aka very very small values.
I dont believe its what Blizzard planned, but thats what was in 9155
Patch build is later it might be fixed on both aspects.
Apparently 3.03 is going live this morning.
Is that a typo on the TG change? I'd heard it was only going to 12%
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Warriors * Armored to the Teeth: Grants only attack power(as intended) and recalculates the bonus immediately upon learning any rank of the talent. * Bladestorm: Now breaks all snares and roots on the warrior when activated. * Bloodthirst: Cooldown reduced to 5 sec.Percentage of damage from attack power raised from 45% to 50%. * Deep Wounds: Now works properly with Heroic Throw. * Heroic Throw: No longer gains increased damage from the warrior's agility. * Improved Rend changed to 10/20%. * Rampage: Can now be triggered by off-hand Whirlwind damage. * Rend: Damage has been adjusted to be less base and more weapon based. * Rend: Ranks 9 and 10 now do 35% more damage when the target is above 75% health instead of 4 times damage when the target is enraged. Sudden Death: Now has 3/6/9% chance on hit instead of 10/20/30% chance on crit. * Titan's Grip: Changed to 5% penalty. * Vigilance: Now properly transfers threat generated by heals. |
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Originally Posted by Darkmyst
Is that a typo on the TG change? I'd heard it was only going to 12%
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| Sudden Death: Now has 3/6/9% chance on hit instead of 10/20/30% chance on crit. |
Edited onPatch 2.4.3
What's going to happen with the miss rate on white hits with the 3.0.3 TG?
Will it stay 15% extra miss or go down to 0% miss (ignoring the base miss chance ofcourse)?
The tooltip basically implies that there will be no extra miss rate on white hits, but I find that rather hard to believe.
Also those patch notes are quite contradictive with what's been written here:
MMO-Champion BlueTracker - Sudden Death not getting nerfed?
Will it stay 15% extra miss or go down to 0% miss (ignoring the base miss chance ofcourse)?
The tooltip basically implies that there will be no extra miss rate on white hits, but I find that rather hard to believe.
Also those patch notes are quite contradictive with what's been written here:
MMO-Champion BlueTracker - Sudden Death not getting nerfed?
| We tried a couple of nerfs to Sudden Death, such as less damage or less chance to proc. We didn't like any of them, so for now the ability is staying as is. |
Last edited by Smooglab : 11/04/08 at 12:37 PM.
Dual wielding always adds 15% miss chance for white attacks, no changes here. Doesn't matter if you are using 1h or 2h with TG.
So many really obvious and stupid questions are being asked, and on top of that they are getting answered. Why? Please people just report them and don't answer the question. If someone can't figure out what the first hit cap is then they shouldn't really have the privelidge to ask. The tooltip clearly says abilities, which means not white damage. And also, this information on hit cap is found on wowwiki, the first page of the DPS warrior compendium thread, and various places around the internet.
I don't want to be a jackass, but this is not really the place to ask and answer basic questions.
-Mod edit-
I am Kaubel and I approve this message.
I don't want to be a jackass, but this is not really the place to ask and answer basic questions.
-Mod edit-
I am Kaubel and I approve this message.
Smooglab, your link is 2 week old…
That’s the info from mmo for Build 9183 (Patch 3.0.3)
Wrath of the Lich King - Warrior - Arms Talents
Wrath of the Lich King - Warrior - Fury Talents
"Sudden Death: Now has 3/6/9% chance on hit instead of 10/20/30% chance on crit."
Is that change significant enough where it would it make sense to spec sword instead axe for a Dual Wielding Arm build assuming you don't have warglaive, (is mace even worth a try with this build?) and stack more hit? 5% extra hit = Increase rage generation would mean more SD proc and more rage on each dump. This is probably requires some testing to figure out SD PPM with and without sword spec. i have like 4 talent build i need to try. i'll start with mace to avoid changing weaponsmithing.
Axe spec seems to be really OP atm, I am sure orcs are going nuts with this...
That’s the info from mmo for Build 9183 (Patch 3.0.3)
Wrath of the Lich King - Warrior - Arms Talents
Wrath of the Lich King - Warrior - Fury Talents
"Sudden Death: Now has 3/6/9% chance on hit instead of 10/20/30% chance on crit."
Is that change significant enough where it would it make sense to spec sword instead axe for a Dual Wielding Arm build assuming you don't have warglaive, (is mace even worth a try with this build?) and stack more hit? 5% extra hit = Increase rage generation would mean more SD proc and more rage on each dump. This is probably requires some testing to figure out SD PPM with and without sword spec. i have like 4 talent build i need to try. i'll start with mace to avoid changing weaponsmithing.
Axe spec seems to be really OP atm, I am sure orcs are going nuts with this...
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Originally Posted by pdpi
Sword spec procs off weapon swings. That header under Recount means that the swing that generated the proc was an execute.
|
It would appear so that the extra attack is a copy of the previous attack which triggered the Sword Spec proc, instead of getting a white attack. Had no idea of it working like that, is that intended?
Opta:
53/8/0 and 52/9/0 were focused on a lot of fast attacks (with your offhand mostly of course), getting Sudden Death to proc, and doing a lot of executes throughout the fight. It was better than 15/46/0 spec for the most part, if you managed to control your threat (10% less threat than 15/46/0 cause of imp berserker stance proved problematic for me, personally).
As to what's better now, we have to wait and see how both specs react to the DW nerf, not to mention the Sudden Death change too. Arms got more nerfed than fury since two of the main reasons it was doing so much damage were nerfed, while fury got hit really bad from DWs, but BT got buffed... I suppose... and fury doesn't suffer from the change in Sudden Death. Plus, Titan's Grip got a decent buff from BT and the lesser hit penalty, allowing more crit/haste/str to be equipped. I'll do some testing tonight at raid on different specs.
Edited onPatch 2.4.3
With my glaives my spreadsheet says I get roughly 2 hits per second with a 53/8 spec with sword spec. This means that every second I have an 18% chance to light up an execute. That means I can hit sudden death on average about once every 5-6 seconds. Let's compare.
Hits per second: ~2
Crits per second: ~1.2
Old patch: 30% on crit:
execute every 2.77 (1/(1.2*.3)) seconds.
New patch: 9% on hit:
execute every 5.55 (1/(2*.09) seconds.
That's a pretty huge hit. Forgoing a glaive build, try to push up my hits per second up to 2.5 using very fast weapons and hit rating seemed kind of wash to me as it would really destroy the rest of my damage. It only pushed my time between executes down to 4. I think the spam-execute days may be over sadly. Even if you had max hit rating and the fastest weapons possible, you would not be able to get to the point of being able to hit execute as often as before, really making the build pointless compared to others.
When looking at a perspective without glaives, my speculation became this: GO TG. even when I ran glaive fury vs TG Fury in my spreadsheet, TG came out a little ahead.
2/51/8 Cookie TG ~3700
15/46 Warglaives old style Fury ~3600
Best stats to get with TG: ArP/STR > Crit > Haste. STR diverges from crit as gear goes up.
Enchants: dbl executioner. Really. Mongoose is crap without wounds. Even on a low armor boss mongoose was only 3dps ahead of execution in the offhand. DBL executioner is also better for levelling than Executioner/mongoose.
Trinkets: Shard> Naaru > Madness/DST (based on armor) > Tsunami > B's Call
Just my 2c
Hits per second: ~2
Crits per second: ~1.2
Old patch: 30% on crit:
execute every 2.77 (1/(1.2*.3)) seconds.
New patch: 9% on hit:
execute every 5.55 (1/(2*.09) seconds.
That's a pretty huge hit. Forgoing a glaive build, try to push up my hits per second up to 2.5 using very fast weapons and hit rating seemed kind of wash to me as it would really destroy the rest of my damage. It only pushed my time between executes down to 4. I think the spam-execute days may be over sadly. Even if you had max hit rating and the fastest weapons possible, you would not be able to get to the point of being able to hit execute as often as before, really making the build pointless compared to others.
When looking at a perspective without glaives, my speculation became this: GO TG. even when I ran glaive fury vs TG Fury in my spreadsheet, TG came out a little ahead.
2/51/8 Cookie TG ~3700
15/46 Warglaives old style Fury ~3600
Best stats to get with TG: ArP/STR > Crit > Haste. STR diverges from crit as gear goes up.
Enchants: dbl executioner. Really. Mongoose is crap without wounds. Even on a low armor boss mongoose was only 3dps ahead of execution in the offhand. DBL executioner is also better for levelling than Executioner/mongoose.
Trinkets: Shard> Naaru > Madness/DST (based on armor) > Tsunami > B's Call
Just my 2c
Last edited by landsoul : 11/04/08 at 7:53 PM.
Ghost changes for live:
offhand deep wounds is always using rank 1.
offhand whirlwind crit can now cause deep wounds.
offhand whirlwind crit can now cause Rampage.
offhand deep wounds is always using rank 1.
offhand whirlwind crit can now cause deep wounds.
offhand whirlwind crit can now cause Rampage.
Landsoul, how do your previous findings change if you incorporate the new buggy Deep Wounds? What weapons did you assume for the TG numbers?
I presume I will try 15/46 for our last TBC raid on Thursday this week and gem back to a more balanced Str/Crit (enjoyed 53/8 since 3.0.2). If you people here do some raids tomorrow, I'd be real interested to see how you perform and with what spec/gear you did it. Thanks in advance!
I presume I will try 15/46 for our last TBC raid on Thursday this week and gem back to a more balanced Str/Crit (enjoyed 53/8 since 3.0.2). If you people here do some raids tomorrow, I'd be real interested to see how you perform and with what spec/gear you did it. Thanks in advance!
No, my comment takes into account non-buggy deep wounds. The glaive build would put out a little less with buggy wounds.
Your spreadsheet really seems to overvalue ArP. Even with this in mind though it shows double mongoose ahead of executioner for me though. Makes sense though, since Executioner was only SLIGHTLY ahead of mongoose pre-3.0, and now:
- Agility gives slightly more crit
- Armor Penetration from executioner is worth less since armor of mobs is higher, and because any ArP on your gear reduces its value.
- Agility gives slightly more crit
- Armor Penetration from executioner is worth less since armor of mobs is higher, and because any ArP on your gear reduces its value.
Any numbers after latest patch? Seem TG is > then deep wounds after this patch either due to bugs or fixes. At least for solo unbuffed i was getting higher numbers right now with TG 0/53/8.
Edited onPatch 2.4.3
- Armor Penetration from executioner is worth less since armor of mobs is higher, and because any ArP on your gear reduces its value.
What? no. ArP gets better the more you have, still. If you modify the value of armor penetration, it also modifies the value of agility, strength, or whatever the hell. What you are saying is like saying haste is the best stat cause it scales with windfury better, and haste is one of the worst ones.
Are you using TG shaa? its showing dbl executioner for me a lot better on high armor boss (and thusly leveling) and only a little behind like 10 dps with dbl mongoose off on low. Can you upload your setup so I can look at it?
What? no. ArP gets better the more you have, still. If you modify the value of armor penetration, it also modifies the value of agility, strength, or whatever the hell. What you are saying is like saying haste is the best stat cause it scales with windfury better, and haste is one of the worst ones.
Are you using TG shaa? its showing dbl executioner for me a lot better on high armor boss (and thusly leveling) and only a little behind like 10 dps with dbl mongoose off on low. Can you upload your setup so I can look at it?
Last edited by landsoul : 11/05/08 at 3:43 AM.
Is the boss armor buff not just in WoTLK rather than now? Thus double mongoose at this point in time may well be more beneficial?
|
Originally Posted by Maddette
Right ... now DW Arms is kinda out the window.
Is it back to 2h Arm or TG fury for PvE? Advice is welcome  |
Edited onPatch 2.4.3
@landsoul:
It can't be that dual Exec. now is that good. Pre ArP-Nerf/Change and with CoR and Expose Armor (~1250 -Armor more), Exec was worse on Offhand. Now Agility got buffed and -Armor is a lot worser than before, because CoR/ EA is missing and the stat itself got nerfed.
More realistic would be, that Exec is on top on mainhand, and Mongoose easily the best offhand Enchant on any Bosses. I don't have any numerical proofs but your own sheet in an early Beta status showed itself Exec/Mungo being the best enchants for TG, and Exec only with a small margin on high armor bosses compared to Mongoose. I think it's like Shha said: Dual Mongoose is nearly as good as Exec/Mongoose and easily better than dual Exec.
Edit: I could imagine that Mongoose would lose value because of the high crit we have raidbuffed now. But this isn't enough to overcome the above statement. Pre 3.0.2 Dual Exec was worse than Exec/Mongoose, with -1300 Armor, CoR, FF, EA. Now with nerfed ArP and less -Armor debuffs it is better? Makes little sense to me.
It can't be that dual Exec. now is that good. Pre ArP-Nerf/Change and with CoR and Expose Armor (~1250 -Armor more), Exec was worse on Offhand. Now Agility got buffed and -Armor is a lot worser than before, because CoR/ EA is missing and the stat itself got nerfed.
More realistic would be, that Exec is on top on mainhand, and Mongoose easily the best offhand Enchant on any Bosses. I don't have any numerical proofs but your own sheet in an early Beta status showed itself Exec/Mungo being the best enchants for TG, and Exec only with a small margin on high armor bosses compared to Mongoose. I think it's like Shha said: Dual Mongoose is nearly as good as Exec/Mongoose and easily better than dual Exec.
Edit: I could imagine that Mongoose would lose value because of the high crit we have raidbuffed now. But this isn't enough to overcome the above statement. Pre 3.0.2 Dual Exec was worse than Exec/Mongoose, with -1300 Armor, CoR, FF, EA. Now with nerfed ArP and less -Armor debuffs it is better? Makes little sense to me.
Last edited by Kaan : 11/05/08 at 12:16 PM.
Edited onPatch 2.4.3
Spec question
I read most of this thread for the last month or so. I am trying to get back up to speed.
I released i got two question.
I armored several peoples and I see quite a few doing 53/8/0 or 52/9/0 dual wielding two 1H and no point in 2H spec and i am trying to understand why.
How does this compare to a 16/45/0 build, is it that good?
What is the probability upcoming nerf/fix/change to Deep Wound with slow MH/fast OF on PTR? Has the change already been made to lower the dps of this setup? Is it worth enchanting Swiftsteel Bludgeon to try out with a dragon strike?
(Sorry this wasn't really clear; I had to split this in two groups of question)
I released i got two question.
I armored several peoples and I see quite a few doing 53/8/0 or 52/9/0 dual wielding two 1H and no point in 2H spec and i am trying to understand why.
How does this compare to a 16/45/0 build, is it that good?
What is the probability upcoming nerf/fix/change to Deep Wound with slow MH/fast OF on PTR? Has the change already been made to lower the dps of this setup? Is it worth enchanting Swiftsteel Bludgeon to try out with a dragon strike?
(Sorry this wasn't really clear; I had to split this in two groups of question)
Last edited by Opta : 11/04/08 at 11:34 AM.
There were several bugs with Deep Wounds. We believe we have those all fixed now so we need to observe the changes for a bit before we decide if any further changes are warranted.
Ghostcrawler
Blizzard Poster
Is there a new build? And for what kind of fix he is talking about?
Ghostcrawler
Blizzard Poster
Is there a new build? And for what kind of fix he is talking about?
Someone knows if the build deployed in USA servers at this moment have the Deep Wound that ignores ranks 2 and 3? I think that is the build 9183. I'm not sure if this one was the build tested in PTR as 3.0.3 or not.
Edited onPatch 2.4.3
Wrong topic for this reply. Please remove.
Last edited by Shha : 11/04/08 at 8:42 AM.
9155 i think was last beta one.
Deep wounds nerf?
Sorry if this was posted somewhere, but I tried using search and also going back several pages on the relevant warrior threads and couldn't find specifics (nor is it in the patch notes). What is the deep wounds nerf that is going into effect? Some folks were theorizing about how to reduce the slow/fast setups with deep wounds, but I could not find anything concrete about what Blizzard was planning..
What was planned:
OH crits cause OH deep wounds based on OH weapon damage
What ended happening
OH crits cause OH deep wounds based on OH weapon damage, but only as if you have rank 1 of the talent (rank 2 and 3 didnt change anything).
What we DONT KNOW if was planned
Crits with special abilities not using equipped weapon damage (Shield Slam, Execute, Bloodthirst) changed to use the "artificial weapon damage" attached to the skill - aka very very small values.
I dont believe its what Blizzard planned, but thats what was in 9155
Patch build is later it might be fixed on both aspects.
OH crits cause OH deep wounds based on OH weapon damage
What ended happening
OH crits cause OH deep wounds based on OH weapon damage, but only as if you have rank 1 of the talent (rank 2 and 3 didnt change anything).
What we DONT KNOW if was planned
Crits with special abilities not using equipped weapon damage (Shield Slam, Execute, Bloodthirst) changed to use the "artificial weapon damage" attached to the skill - aka very very small values.
I dont believe its what Blizzard planned, but thats what was in 9155
Patch build is later it might be fixed on both aspects.
Apparently 3.03 is going live this morning.
Is that a typo on the TG change? I'd heard it was only going to 12%
|
Warriors * Armored to the Teeth: Grants only attack power(as intended) and recalculates the bonus immediately upon learning any rank of the talent. * Bladestorm: Now breaks all snares and roots on the warrior when activated. * Bloodthirst: Cooldown reduced to 5 sec.Percentage of damage from attack power raised from 45% to 50%. * Deep Wounds: Now works properly with Heroic Throw. * Heroic Throw: No longer gains increased damage from the warrior's agility. * Improved Rend changed to 10/20%. * Rampage: Can now be triggered by off-hand Whirlwind damage. * Rend: Damage has been adjusted to be less base and more weapon based. * Rend: Ranks 9 and 10 now do 35% more damage when the target is above 75% health instead of 4 times damage when the target is enraged. Sudden Death: Now has 3/6/9% chance on hit instead of 10/20/30% chance on crit. * Titan's Grip: Changed to 5% penalty. * Vigilance: Now properly transfers threat generated by heals. |
|
Originally Posted by Darkmyst
Is that a typo on the TG change? I'd heard it was only going to 12%
|
| Sudden Death: Now has 3/6/9% chance on hit instead of 10/20/30% chance on crit. |
Edited onPatch 2.4.3
What's going to happen with the miss rate on white hits with the 3.0.3 TG?
Will it stay 15% extra miss or go down to 0% miss (ignoring the base miss chance ofcourse)?
The tooltip basically implies that there will be no extra miss rate on white hits, but I find that rather hard to believe.
Also those patch notes are quite contradictive with what's been written here:
MMO-Champion BlueTracker - Sudden Death not getting nerfed?
Will it stay 15% extra miss or go down to 0% miss (ignoring the base miss chance ofcourse)?
The tooltip basically implies that there will be no extra miss rate on white hits, but I find that rather hard to believe.
Also those patch notes are quite contradictive with what's been written here:
MMO-Champion BlueTracker - Sudden Death not getting nerfed?
| We tried a couple of nerfs to Sudden Death, such as less damage or less chance to proc. We didn't like any of them, so for now the ability is staying as is. |
Last edited by Smooglab : 11/04/08 at 12:37 PM.
Dual wielding always adds 15% miss chance for white attacks, no changes here. Doesn't matter if you are using 1h or 2h with TG.
So many really obvious and stupid questions are being asked, and on top of that they are getting answered. Why? Please people just report them and don't answer the question. If someone can't figure out what the first hit cap is then they shouldn't really have the privelidge to ask. The tooltip clearly says abilities, which means not white damage. And also, this information on hit cap is found on wowwiki, the first page of the DPS warrior compendium thread, and various places around the internet.
I don't want to be a jackass, but this is not really the place to ask and answer basic questions.
-Mod edit-
I am Kaubel and I approve this message.
I don't want to be a jackass, but this is not really the place to ask and answer basic questions.
-Mod edit-
I am Kaubel and I approve this message.
Smooglab, your link is 2 week old…
That’s the info from mmo for Build 9183 (Patch 3.0.3)
Wrath of the Lich King - Warrior - Arms Talents
Wrath of the Lich King - Warrior - Fury Talents
"Sudden Death: Now has 3/6/9% chance on hit instead of 10/20/30% chance on crit."
Is that change significant enough where it would it make sense to spec sword instead axe for a Dual Wielding Arm build assuming you don't have warglaive, (is mace even worth a try with this build?) and stack more hit? 5% extra hit = Increase rage generation would mean more SD proc and more rage on each dump. This is probably requires some testing to figure out SD PPM with and without sword spec. i have like 4 talent build i need to try. i'll start with mace to avoid changing weaponsmithing.
Axe spec seems to be really OP atm, I am sure orcs are going nuts with this...
That’s the info from mmo for Build 9183 (Patch 3.0.3)
Wrath of the Lich King - Warrior - Arms Talents
Wrath of the Lich King - Warrior - Fury Talents
"Sudden Death: Now has 3/6/9% chance on hit instead of 10/20/30% chance on crit."
Is that change significant enough where it would it make sense to spec sword instead axe for a Dual Wielding Arm build assuming you don't have warglaive, (is mace even worth a try with this build?) and stack more hit? 5% extra hit = Increase rage generation would mean more SD proc and more rage on each dump. This is probably requires some testing to figure out SD PPM with and without sword spec. i have like 4 talent build i need to try. i'll start with mace to avoid changing weaponsmithing.
Axe spec seems to be really OP atm, I am sure orcs are going nuts with this...
|
Originally Posted by pdpi
Sword spec procs off weapon swings. That header under Recount means that the swing that generated the proc was an execute.
|
It would appear so that the extra attack is a copy of the previous attack which triggered the Sword Spec proc, instead of getting a white attack. Had no idea of it working like that, is that intended?
Opta:
53/8/0 and 52/9/0 were focused on a lot of fast attacks (with your offhand mostly of course), getting Sudden Death to proc, and doing a lot of executes throughout the fight. It was better than 15/46/0 spec for the most part, if you managed to control your threat (10% less threat than 15/46/0 cause of imp berserker stance proved problematic for me, personally).
As to what's better now, we have to wait and see how both specs react to the DW nerf, not to mention the Sudden Death change too. Arms got more nerfed than fury since two of the main reasons it was doing so much damage were nerfed, while fury got hit really bad from DWs, but BT got buffed... I suppose... and fury doesn't suffer from the change in Sudden Death. Plus, Titan's Grip got a decent buff from BT and the lesser hit penalty, allowing more crit/haste/str to be equipped. I'll do some testing tonight at raid on different specs.
Edited onPatch 2.4.3
With my glaives my spreadsheet says I get roughly 2 hits per second with a 53/8 spec with sword spec. This means that every second I have an 18% chance to light up an execute. That means I can hit sudden death on average about once every 5-6 seconds. Let's compare.
Hits per second: ~2
Crits per second: ~1.2
Old patch: 30% on crit:
execute every 2.77 (1/(1.2*.3)) seconds.
New patch: 9% on hit:
execute every 5.55 (1/(2*.09) seconds.
That's a pretty huge hit. Forgoing a glaive build, try to push up my hits per second up to 2.5 using very fast weapons and hit rating seemed kind of wash to me as it would really destroy the rest of my damage. It only pushed my time between executes down to 4. I think the spam-execute days may be over sadly. Even if you had max hit rating and the fastest weapons possible, you would not be able to get to the point of being able to hit execute as often as before, really making the build pointless compared to others.
When looking at a perspective without glaives, my speculation became this: GO TG. even when I ran glaive fury vs TG Fury in my spreadsheet, TG came out a little ahead.
2/51/8 Cookie TG ~3700
15/46 Warglaives old style Fury ~3600
Best stats to get with TG: ArP/STR > Crit > Haste. STR diverges from crit as gear goes up.
Enchants: dbl executioner. Really. Mongoose is crap without wounds. Even on a low armor boss mongoose was only 3dps ahead of execution in the offhand. DBL executioner is also better for levelling than Executioner/mongoose.
Trinkets: Shard> Naaru > Madness/DST (based on armor) > Tsunami > B's Call
Just my 2c
Hits per second: ~2
Crits per second: ~1.2
Old patch: 30% on crit:
execute every 2.77 (1/(1.2*.3)) seconds.
New patch: 9% on hit:
execute every 5.55 (1/(2*.09) seconds.
That's a pretty huge hit. Forgoing a glaive build, try to push up my hits per second up to 2.5 using very fast weapons and hit rating seemed kind of wash to me as it would really destroy the rest of my damage. It only pushed my time between executes down to 4. I think the spam-execute days may be over sadly. Even if you had max hit rating and the fastest weapons possible, you would not be able to get to the point of being able to hit execute as often as before, really making the build pointless compared to others.
When looking at a perspective without glaives, my speculation became this: GO TG. even when I ran glaive fury vs TG Fury in my spreadsheet, TG came out a little ahead.
2/51/8 Cookie TG ~3700
15/46 Warglaives old style Fury ~3600
Best stats to get with TG: ArP/STR > Crit > Haste. STR diverges from crit as gear goes up.
Enchants: dbl executioner. Really. Mongoose is crap without wounds. Even on a low armor boss mongoose was only 3dps ahead of execution in the offhand. DBL executioner is also better for levelling than Executioner/mongoose.
Trinkets: Shard> Naaru > Madness/DST (based on armor) > Tsunami > B's Call
Just my 2c
Last edited by landsoul : 11/04/08 at 7:53 PM.
Ghost changes for live:
offhand deep wounds is always using rank 1.
offhand whirlwind crit can now cause deep wounds.
offhand whirlwind crit can now cause Rampage.
offhand deep wounds is always using rank 1.
offhand whirlwind crit can now cause deep wounds.
offhand whirlwind crit can now cause Rampage.
Landsoul, how do your previous findings change if you incorporate the new buggy Deep Wounds? What weapons did you assume for the TG numbers?
I presume I will try 15/46 for our last TBC raid on Thursday this week and gem back to a more balanced Str/Crit (enjoyed 53/8 since 3.0.2). If you people here do some raids tomorrow, I'd be real interested to see how you perform and with what spec/gear you did it. Thanks in advance!
I presume I will try 15/46 for our last TBC raid on Thursday this week and gem back to a more balanced Str/Crit (enjoyed 53/8 since 3.0.2). If you people here do some raids tomorrow, I'd be real interested to see how you perform and with what spec/gear you did it. Thanks in advance!
No, my comment takes into account non-buggy deep wounds. The glaive build would put out a little less with buggy wounds.
Your spreadsheet really seems to overvalue ArP. Even with this in mind though it shows double mongoose ahead of executioner for me though. Makes sense though, since Executioner was only SLIGHTLY ahead of mongoose pre-3.0, and now:
- Agility gives slightly more crit
- Armor Penetration from executioner is worth less since armor of mobs is higher, and because any ArP on your gear reduces its value.
- Agility gives slightly more crit
- Armor Penetration from executioner is worth less since armor of mobs is higher, and because any ArP on your gear reduces its value.
Any numbers after latest patch? Seem TG is > then deep wounds after this patch either due to bugs or fixes. At least for solo unbuffed i was getting higher numbers right now with TG 0/53/8.
Edited onPatch 2.4.3
- Armor Penetration from executioner is worth less since armor of mobs is higher, and because any ArP on your gear reduces its value.
What? no. ArP gets better the more you have, still. If you modify the value of armor penetration, it also modifies the value of agility, strength, or whatever the hell. What you are saying is like saying haste is the best stat cause it scales with windfury better, and haste is one of the worst ones.
Are you using TG shaa? its showing dbl executioner for me a lot better on high armor boss (and thusly leveling) and only a little behind like 10 dps with dbl mongoose off on low. Can you upload your setup so I can look at it?
What? no. ArP gets better the more you have, still. If you modify the value of armor penetration, it also modifies the value of agility, strength, or whatever the hell. What you are saying is like saying haste is the best stat cause it scales with windfury better, and haste is one of the worst ones.
Are you using TG shaa? its showing dbl executioner for me a lot better on high armor boss (and thusly leveling) and only a little behind like 10 dps with dbl mongoose off on low. Can you upload your setup so I can look at it?
Last edited by landsoul : 11/05/08 at 3:43 AM.
Is the boss armor buff not just in WoTLK rather than now? Thus double mongoose at this point in time may well be more beneficial?
|
Originally Posted by Maddette
Right ... now DW Arms is kinda out the window.
Is it back to 2h Arm or TG fury for PvE? Advice is welcome |
Edited onPatch 2.4.3
@landsoul:
It can't be that dual Exec. now is that good. Pre ArP-Nerf/Change and with CoR and Expose Armor (~1250 -Armor more), Exec was worse on Offhand. Now Agility got buffed and -Armor is a lot worser than before, because CoR/ EA is missing and the stat itself got nerfed.
More realistic would be, that Exec is on top on mainhand, and Mongoose easily the best offhand Enchant on any Bosses. I don't have any numerical proofs but your own sheet in an early Beta status showed itself Exec/Mungo being the best enchants for TG, and Exec only with a small margin on high armor bosses compared to Mongoose. I think it's like Shha said: Dual Mongoose is nearly as good as Exec/Mongoose and easily better than dual Exec.
Edit: I could imagine that Mongoose would lose value because of the high crit we have raidbuffed now. But this isn't enough to overcome the above statement. Pre 3.0.2 Dual Exec was worse than Exec/Mongoose, with -1300 Armor, CoR, FF, EA. Now with nerfed ArP and less -Armor debuffs it is better? Makes little sense to me.
It can't be that dual Exec. now is that good. Pre ArP-Nerf/Change and with CoR and Expose Armor (~1250 -Armor more), Exec was worse on Offhand. Now Agility got buffed and -Armor is a lot worser than before, because CoR/ EA is missing and the stat itself got nerfed.
More realistic would be, that Exec is on top on mainhand, and Mongoose easily the best offhand Enchant on any Bosses. I don't have any numerical proofs but your own sheet in an early Beta status showed itself Exec/Mungo being the best enchants for TG, and Exec only with a small margin on high armor bosses compared to Mongoose. I think it's like Shha said: Dual Mongoose is nearly as good as Exec/Mongoose and easily better than dual Exec.
Edit: I could imagine that Mongoose would lose value because of the high crit we have raidbuffed now. But this isn't enough to overcome the above statement. Pre 3.0.2 Dual Exec was worse than Exec/Mongoose, with -1300 Armor, CoR, FF, EA. Now with nerfed ArP and less -Armor debuffs it is better? Makes little sense to me.
Last edited by Kaan : 11/05/08 at 12:16 PM.
|
Originally Posted by landsoul
- Armor Penetration from executioner is worth less since armor of mobs is higher, and because any ArP on your gear reduces its value.
What? no. ArP gets better the more you have, still. If you modify the value of armor penetration, it also modifies the value of agility, strength, or whatever the hell. What you are saying is like saying haste is the best stat cause it scales with windfury better, and haste is one of the worst ones. Are you using TG shaa? its showing dbl executioner for me a lot better on high armor boss (and thusly leveling) and only a little behind like 10 dps with dbl mongoose off on low. Can you upload your setup so I can look at it? |
Btw, it's SHHA not SHAA
.I have real problem with your spreadsheet. ArP stat really seem extremely high, and I cant really nail down the problem. ArP in general seems way too good in it. I understand TG doesnt have deep wounds, but neither did pre-3.0 warrior dps.
1700 ArP before patch was about enough to reduce 6200-boss armor to zero (imp expose, FF, Reck)
Thats going from 86.13% damage to 100% damage. = 16.1% increase.
Now 1700 old ArP = 1700/51.4 = 33%.
6200 boss is usually around 3k armor now. Armor Pen puts it at 2k.
Thats going from 77.87% reduction to 84.07% aka 8% increase.
Armor Pen value is halved.
Now pre-3.0 my Sep Values were around
1 STR
0.63 AGI
0.9 CRIT
0.85 HASTE
1.4 ArP.
I understand ArP value might have changed independently due to a bit different mechanics of TG. But honestly, 1.4/2 = 0.7. Its just hard to believe it really ends up higher then str in your sheet. Somewhat TG mechanics made ArP twice as effective? And in situation when there is LESS buffs to AP, so STR should be actually worth more?
It doesnt look THAT bad for higher armor bosses, but still the fact that basically ArP is often MORE of a "king of stats" now in your spreadsheet is disturbing. No matter what other stats are there, basically ArP items seem to always pull ahead.
Noticed that the tooltip for rend shows it dealing less dmg if you're hasted. Haven't seen if it really ticks for less or if it's just a tooltip bug. Can anyone confirm?
I'm definetly with Shha on this one, and I've done a bit of the math to prove it to myself.
(Math)
Lets take for the sake of comparison a level 70 boss with low armor (6200). Under the new system the total debuffed armor from raid buffs that boss will be is 2150 (w/ executioner proc).
Now using the armor reduction reduction formula.... % mitigation = x / [x + 10557.5]
I calculated the following mitigation percents for the new system.
2150 armor = 16.92%
+50 ArP rating
2004.73 armor = 15.96%
+100 ArP rating
1859.46 armor = 14.98%
+150 ArP rating
1714.19 armor = 13.97%
From this we can see that the gains from 50 arp rating sequentially are... .96%, .98%, and 1.01%. This proves that ArP is still a scaling stat in that the more we stack the better it is. However, this scaling as we know has been drastically cut back. The second derivite gains are nearly even in this system. Now lets compare that to the old system under the same conditions.
2150 armor = 16.92%
+350 ArP
1800 armor = 14.57%
+700 ArP
1450 armor = 12.08%
+1050 ArP
1100 armor = 9.44%
Our sequential gains are... 2.35%, 2.49%, 2.64%. So not only is Shha right in his ballpark estimate hes underestimating the devaluing of this stat in the low armor range as its closer to 40% of its original value.
(/math)
Now my calculations with higher armor values show the same trend but in a less drastic fashion as ArP is less effective as a whole with high armor values. However, the old system still rains supreme in all cases. (see 3.0 Dps warrior spreadsheet for my full posting of this). So I played around with Landsoul's speadsheet like he suggested by first plugging in the highest dps set for TG I could fit then adding ArP vs strength. I did this on a high armor value and ArP smoked strength (the set had around 2650 unbuffed ap and 33% ArP). This just seems off to me, and while I've actually convinced myself that ArP is not a horrible stat, I'm almost certain that its not the best stat.
(Math)
Lets take for the sake of comparison a level 70 boss with low armor (6200). Under the new system the total debuffed armor from raid buffs that boss will be is 2150 (w/ executioner proc).
Now using the armor reduction reduction formula.... % mitigation = x / [x + 10557.5]
I calculated the following mitigation percents for the new system.
2150 armor = 16.92%
+50 ArP rating
2004.73 armor = 15.96%
+100 ArP rating
1859.46 armor = 14.98%
+150 ArP rating
1714.19 armor = 13.97%
From this we can see that the gains from 50 arp rating sequentially are... .96%, .98%, and 1.01%. This proves that ArP is still a scaling stat in that the more we stack the better it is. However, this scaling as we know has been drastically cut back. The second derivite gains are nearly even in this system. Now lets compare that to the old system under the same conditions.
2150 armor = 16.92%
+350 ArP
1800 armor = 14.57%
+700 ArP
1450 armor = 12.08%
+1050 ArP
1100 armor = 9.44%
Our sequential gains are... 2.35%, 2.49%, 2.64%. So not only is Shha right in his ballpark estimate hes underestimating the devaluing of this stat in the low armor range as its closer to 40% of its original value.
(/math)
Now my calculations with higher armor values show the same trend but in a less drastic fashion as ArP is less effective as a whole with high armor values. However, the old system still rains supreme in all cases. (see 3.0 Dps warrior spreadsheet for my full posting of this). So I played around with Landsoul's speadsheet like he suggested by first plugging in the highest dps set for TG I could fit then adding ArP vs strength. I did this on a high armor value and ArP smoked strength (the set had around 2650 unbuffed ap and 33% ArP). This just seems off to me, and while I've actually convinced myself that ArP is not a horrible stat, I'm almost certain that its not the best stat.
|
Originally Posted by Daronsk
I'm definetly with Shha on this one, and I've done a bit of the math to prove it to myself.
(Math) Lets take for the sake of comparison a level 70 boss with low armor (6200). Under the new system the total debuffed armor from raid buffs that boss will be is 2150 (w/ executioner proc). Now using the armor reduction reduction formula.... % mitigation = x / [x + 10557.5] I calculated the following mitigation percents for the new system. 2150 armor = 16.92% +50 ArP rating 2004.73 armor = 15.96% +100 ArP rating 1859.46 armor = 14.98% +150 ArP rating 1714.19 armor = 13.97% From this we can see that the gains from 50 arp rating sequentially are... .96%, .98%, and 1.01%. This proves that ArP is still a scaling stat in that the more we stack the better it is. However, this scaling as we know has been drastically cut back. The second derivite gains are nearly even in this system. Now lets compare that to the old system under the same conditions. 2150 armor = 16.92% +350 ArP 1800 armor = 14.57% +700 ArP 1450 armor = 12.08% +1050 ArP 1100 armor = 9.44% Our sequential gains are... 2.35%, 2.49%, 2.64%. So not only is Shha right in his ballpark estimate hes underestimating the devaluing of this stat in the low armor range as its closer to 40% of its original value. (/math) Now my calculations with higher armor values show the same trend but in a less drastic fashion as ArP is less effective as a whole with high armor values. However, the old system still rains supreme in all cases. (see 3.0 Dps warrior spreadsheet for my full posting of this). So I played around with Landsoul's speadsheet like he suggested by first plugging in the highest dps set for TG I could fit then adding ArP vs strength. I did this on a high armor value and ArP smoked strength (the set had around 2650 unbuffed ap and 33% ArP). This just seems off to me, and while I've actually convinced myself that ArP is not a horrible stat, I'm almost certain that its not the best stat. |
The concept you are not seeing is that if you lower the power of ArP which is what happened in 3.0, this means that every other stat you have will also do less damage. They do not do the same damage. For example, if before 3.0 20 ArP got 28 dps and 20 STR got 20 dps, after 3.0 that same 20 str will do less than 20 dps, because of how the new calculations for armor penetration works. Also, we do much more base damage in general, and ArP is a percentage scaling based stat. Instead of doing 2k damage in general we are doing 3k+. The percentage gains are more for 3k than they are for 2k. Armor penetration effectiveness is not reduced by half when you look at the big picture. You have to consider everything when you compare both pre 3.0 and post 3.0 and quite frankly you both aren't.. You can't think of it that way because that's not how simple it is. Warrior dps is much much more multidimensional. If I did not know this, I wouldn't be backing myself up so frivilously. I will continue to do so as long as you keep posting these incomplete mathematical representations.
I Read the last 2 Pages about TG vs old Cookie Cuter, what about Arms?
I did 3250 DPS on Brut with Blade of Harbringers (Axe Spec) and 2 SW T6 Rest was BT/Badge Gear. Focusing on Crit and having Mungoose. I got infight 55-60% Crit in Battle Stance. Had 6 Agi on EoS Feet then, now got T6 Feet with Surefooted. Cant remember how good Raidbuffs were.
Could i do more DPS with Cats & BoH with TG Spec, i got enough Items to get Hit over 200. (381 without Sockets if i Want, but loosing lots of Crit/Expertise)
Or Cookie Cuter with Slow/Slow?
We had Cookie Cuter with us who had 2800 DPS a bit less gear but not much, i was First on the meters, CC and other Arms were about the Same and shared 2nd and 3rd.
I did 3250 DPS on Brut with Blade of Harbringers (Axe Spec) and 2 SW T6 Rest was BT/Badge Gear. Focusing on Crit and having Mungoose. I got infight 55-60% Crit in Battle Stance. Had 6 Agi on EoS Feet then, now got T6 Feet with Surefooted. Cant remember how good Raidbuffs were.
Could i do more DPS with Cats & BoH with TG Spec, i got enough Items to get Hit over 200. (381 without Sockets if i Want, but loosing lots of Crit/Expertise)
Or Cookie Cuter with Slow/Slow?
We had Cookie Cuter with us who had 2800 DPS a bit less gear but not much, i was First on the meters, CC and other Arms were about the Same and shared 2nd and 3rd.
Thats very true and is more or less what I have been looking for. However, I wouldn't say that my math is incomplete in the sense that it accomplishes what I set out to prove. That comparing the old ArP system to the new ArP system, the old system is vastly better. This isn't to say that ArP isin't the best stat or the worst stat, but simply shows that if blizzard haden't changed the system that the warriors would benefit much more from flat static armor reductions. Of course this rule of thumb we all knew from the start and all the math proves is how much worse it is.
The implications of this lead me to believe that ArP may be sufficiently weakend as a stat to consider 1) not gemming around it, and 2) Gearing away from it. This is where your big picture comes into play as we have to consider all the stats and comparing them to each other. I have not looked at the gains the other stats give but I suspect you may be right in this regards. Take stength for example...
str -> adds a flat damage increase to white damage, and a damage increase as the ap gained effects your effective weapon damage. What scales with this stat is rage gain.
What we come down to at this point is we know that ArP still scales, but scales far less fast. It would be interesting at this to see now an arguement that either the other stats do not scale(as I've more or less reasoned out with strength) or that they scale slower then ArP.
[All comments in regards to TG @ 70]
The implications of this lead me to believe that ArP may be sufficiently weakend as a stat to consider 1) not gemming around it, and 2) Gearing away from it. This is where your big picture comes into play as we have to consider all the stats and comparing them to each other. I have not looked at the gains the other stats give but I suspect you may be right in this regards. Take stength for example...
str -> adds a flat damage increase to white damage, and a damage increase as the ap gained effects your effective weapon damage. What scales with this stat is rage gain.
What we come down to at this point is we know that ArP still scales, but scales far less fast. It would be interesting at this to see now an arguement that either the other stats do not scale(as I've more or less reasoned out with strength) or that they scale slower then ArP.
[All comments in regards to TG @ 70]
You are a bit deluded here though Landsoul.
Ive proven above that just % gain from ArP is lower now. Lets see about STR now.
Bloodthirst dps - STR went UP in effectiveness since average ap went down (from not stacking str scrolls, might and shouts etc)
"weapon damage dps" Again our weapon based dps went down while str adds a static amount there. Our higher dps comes from higher crit ratings, and similiar effects. Damage of swings is about same or lower - so str is MORE effective here % wise.
Execute dps - again STR now affects dps of executes more directly.
In short - same amount of str gives MORE of a PERCENTAGE based dps boost. Same amount of ArP gives LESS of a PERCENTAGE based dps boost. So str should be a lot better then ArP.
And now the best part is. I watched how much my dps changed based on items , and sort of blindly assumed the "SEP" values posted above are right - since like I said ArP items seem to end up much higher for me. However now i run more and more tests on spreadsheet and came to a conclusion:
a) SEPs posted above are "bogus" for my stats. STR for me is almost 50% more powerful then ArP - so it seems its correct here.
b) The low value of the non-arp items comes from low value of hit and haste - not the high value of ArP. Apparently hit and haste lost a lot of value from pre-3.0 (even though they werent that high in first place). I can understand that hit past the 14% cap is worth less - higher rage generation gives us heroic on really every swing+ more contribution of instants. Haste is the same - more contribution of instants is one thing - but more importantly the best TG weapons are currently giving a lot of haste themselves. Not trying for haste at all im closing to 400 in that regard.
Thats more "acceptable". In fact STR is so high ahead of our other stats for me, nothing else (crit included) comes close - at least until deep wounds/impale makes it back into the play.
My SEP values
STR = 1.0
ArP = 0.65
Crit = 0.75
Hit = 0.2 - yes THAT low (Obviously after cap)
Haste - 0.5
Its simply because of overinflated rage generation imo. Hit and Haste were our large contributors to rage generation. So was crit. With TG it seems we are basically doomed to be rage capped in the long run, and rage just stopped to be a factor (even doing heroics every swing). I made math already in wotlk preview thread showing that with average stats at 80, OH alone will be enough to fuel Heroics on every MH swing + every instant, with 50% rage overflow. That is with full epic gear etc.
Thats why rage generating stats lost so much appeal with TG, and only ones left are ArP/Str. Since we lack impale/DW , crit is low for the time being , although it will catch up to other 2 come 80.
Ive proven above that just % gain from ArP is lower now. Lets see about STR now.
Bloodthirst dps - STR went UP in effectiveness since average ap went down (from not stacking str scrolls, might and shouts etc)
"weapon damage dps" Again our weapon based dps went down while str adds a static amount there. Our higher dps comes from higher crit ratings, and similiar effects. Damage of swings is about same or lower - so str is MORE effective here % wise.
Execute dps - again STR now affects dps of executes more directly.
In short - same amount of str gives MORE of a PERCENTAGE based dps boost. Same amount of ArP gives LESS of a PERCENTAGE based dps boost. So str should be a lot better then ArP.
And now the best part is. I watched how much my dps changed based on items , and sort of blindly assumed the "SEP" values posted above are right - since like I said ArP items seem to end up much higher for me. However now i run more and more tests on spreadsheet and came to a conclusion:
a) SEPs posted above are "bogus" for my stats. STR for me is almost 50% more powerful then ArP - so it seems its correct here.
b) The low value of the non-arp items comes from low value of hit and haste - not the high value of ArP. Apparently hit and haste lost a lot of value from pre-3.0 (even though they werent that high in first place). I can understand that hit past the 14% cap is worth less - higher rage generation gives us heroic on really every swing+ more contribution of instants. Haste is the same - more contribution of instants is one thing - but more importantly the best TG weapons are currently giving a lot of haste themselves. Not trying for haste at all im closing to 400 in that regard.
Thats more "acceptable". In fact STR is so high ahead of our other stats for me, nothing else (crit included) comes close - at least until deep wounds/impale makes it back into the play.
My SEP values
STR = 1.0
ArP = 0.65
Crit = 0.75
Hit = 0.2 - yes THAT low (Obviously after cap)
Haste - 0.5
Its simply because of overinflated rage generation imo. Hit and Haste were our large contributors to rage generation. So was crit. With TG it seems we are basically doomed to be rage capped in the long run, and rage just stopped to be a factor (even doing heroics every swing). I made math already in wotlk preview thread showing that with average stats at 80, OH alone will be enough to fuel Heroics on every MH swing + every instant, with 50% rage overflow. That is with full epic gear etc.
Thats why rage generating stats lost so much appeal with TG, and only ones left are ArP/Str. Since we lack impale/DW , crit is low for the time being , although it will catch up to other 2 come 80.
Edited onPatch 2.4.3
Does anyone have a "ballpark" amount of stats to go for with Titan's Grip? I don't have a lot of the gear you guys are running with but know I could certainly do much better with what I have:
Armory
Given the conversations here, I'm still not all that clear what stats I should focus most on. Any constructive tips would be appreciated.
Armory
Given the conversations here, I'm still not all that clear what stats I should focus most on. Any constructive tips would be appreciated.
Last edited by Sydar : 11/05/08 at 5:28 PM.
Edited onPatch 2.4.3
It appears you guys are talking about low armor bosses while I am talking about high armor bosses. They are indeed quite different. Our arguments are futile because we're not all talking about the same thing, myself, Shha and Daronsk. You are definitely correct that STR is much more powerful than ArP for a low armor boss.
My perspective is coming from the fact that we're going to be leveling in 8 days and that there won't be any armor debuffs on mostly anything we are trying to kill until raids. It doesn't make sense to continue to gear for low armor bosses because they are not progression related. You are going to be spending dozens of hours whacking on stuff thats going to have increasingly more and more armor. Not to mention at 80 comes the return of high armor bosses, in a sense that they increased all armor of bosses in beta by 10% to help level the physical to caster DPS curves. Would you argue that STR will be better than ArP on a boss with 12k armor?
edit: actually, ArP shines over strength while levelling, however on a 12k armor boss @80 and @80 talents I didn't see ArP performing very well versus strength, possibly more due to the introduction of bleeds.
My perspective is coming from the fact that we're going to be leveling in 8 days and that there won't be any armor debuffs on mostly anything we are trying to kill until raids. It doesn't make sense to continue to gear for low armor bosses because they are not progression related. You are going to be spending dozens of hours whacking on stuff thats going to have increasingly more and more armor. Not to mention at 80 comes the return of high armor bosses, in a sense that they increased all armor of bosses in beta by 10% to help level the physical to caster DPS curves. Would you argue that STR will be better than ArP on a boss with 12k armor?
edit: actually, ArP shines over strength while levelling, however on a 12k armor boss @80 and @80 talents I didn't see ArP performing very well versus strength, possibly more due to the introduction of bleeds.
Last edited by landsoul : 11/05/08 at 6:18 PM.
I've been lurking here for around a year now, and I must say, you guys do deliver.
However I've taken an extra interest in the Cookie Cutter spec, DW-rest fury, or the so called "lower Cookie Cutter" spec, where you get 8 points in prot, 15 in arms and rest in fury. I have to say this spec really do deliver, not as high as 2hander spec does for trash, but on most boss-fights it really does. However I went with a PuG today, to Hyjal Summit. I instantly noticed that DW is somewhat changed, it does far less dmg. I'm having problems stacking it to 3k, while I post 3.03 I with little ease managed to pull it up to 5k per tick. I see a significant loss in DPS, going down from 3k on bosses, to 2k on the same bosses. I have the exact same buffs, 60% crit raidbuffed with mongoose proccs. I've tried to find valid information about this, but blizzard seems to have left none. Any clue if this is a stealth nerf or whatnot?
However I've taken an extra interest in the Cookie Cutter spec, DW-rest fury, or the so called "lower Cookie Cutter" spec, where you get 8 points in prot, 15 in arms and rest in fury. I have to say this spec really do deliver, not as high as 2hander spec does for trash, but on most boss-fights it really does. However I went with a PuG today, to Hyjal Summit. I instantly noticed that DW is somewhat changed, it does far less dmg. I'm having problems stacking it to 3k, while I post 3.03 I with little ease managed to pull it up to 5k per tick. I see a significant loss in DPS, going down from 3k on bosses, to 2k on the same bosses. I have the exact same buffs, 60% crit raidbuffed with mongoose proccs. I've tried to find valid information about this, but blizzard seems to have left none. Any clue if this is a stealth nerf or whatnot?
How could you miss the 2+ pages talking about the normalization of deep wounds?
Oh my, must be blind.
Now that that's clarified, Any suggestion to specs that doesn't mean mainstream TG or same old Arms tree? Is it still worth keeping the DW slow Mh, fast OH, stacking crit, etc?
Now that that's clarified, Any suggestion to specs that doesn't mean mainstream TG or same old Arms tree? Is it still worth keeping the DW slow Mh, fast OH, stacking crit, etc?
Rotations
Do we have any consensus on what the preferred rotation will be for Wrath with the new 5 second bloodthirst? I'm currently in sunwell and trying both WW->BT and the old style BT->WW and it seems that leading with bloodthirst is a lot smoother. I don't get gcd clips with bloodsurged slams leading with BT and the rotation is shorter. However, one WW does more damage than one BT (I believe), any thoughts?
I am using a basic rotation of:
BT--GCD(possibly a slam)--WW--0.5 sec for computer and brainlag--BT--GCD(possibly a slam)--GCD--0.5 sec for computer and brainlag
That should always allow you to use BT and WW on CD, leaves .5 seconds for reaction time and lag, and even if bloodsurge procs twice in 10 seconds, you still have a free GCD.
BT--GCD(possibly a slam)--WW--0.5 sec for computer and brainlag--BT--GCD(possibly a slam)--GCD--0.5 sec for computer and brainlag
That should always allow you to use BT and WW on CD, leaves .5 seconds for reaction time and lag, and even if bloodsurge procs twice in 10 seconds, you still have a free GCD.
That's what I've been using and I like it more than prioritizing whirlwind, I think I'll stick with it unless math backs up something else.
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Originally Posted by landsoul
edit: actually, ArP shines over strength while levelling, however on a 12k armor boss @80 and @80 talents I didn't see ArP performing very well versus strength, possibly more due to the introduction of bleeds.
|
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Originally Posted by Sydar
Does anyone have a "ballpark" amount of stats to go for with Titan's Grip? I don't have a lot of the gear you guys are running with but know I could certainly do much better with what I have:
Armory Given the conversations here, I'm still not all that clear what stats I should focus most on. Any constructive tips would be appreciated. |
So I'd replace the 10 hitrating gem in your T6 pants for starters. And perhaps look around if there are nice/better items to replace some of your hit gear.
On rotations, it doesn't matter which you prioritize first really, the cooldowns dont overlap and you can always delay your bloodsurge. Whirlwind hits harder yes but also bloodthirst has the potential to do yield more damage with bloodsurge. Whatever skill you hit first, the rest of your rotation will get in line.
@ArP: Does ArP count total boss armor or actual armor?
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Originally Posted by landsoul
On rotations, it doesn't matter which you prioritize first really, the cooldowns dont overlap and you can always delay your bloodsurge. Whirlwind hits harder yes but also bloodthirst has the potential to do yield more damage with bloodsurge. Whatever skill you hit first, the rest of your rotation will get in line.
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Originally Posted by Wrata
@ArP: Does ArP count total boss armor or actual armor?
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I'm not sure yet (not enough data atm) if executioner is calculated before ArP on gear, but the difference on low armor boss would be bigger than on high armor bosses.
Can you please stop asking questions that have been answered like five times already? Think and search before posting, especially it you aren't a regular poster. We aren't your personal advisors. This forum can only provide valuable information because craptastic posts get punished.
To the rest: Stop answering those noob questions and just report them. Do you want to add three unnessecary answers to every dumb question? It's just spam.
To the rest: Stop answering those noob questions and just report them. Do you want to add three unnessecary answers to every dumb question? It's just spam.
What does more dps? 2/2 impale with 1handers or titan's grip without imaple?
[Warrior] Fury DPS Spreadsheet for 3.0
Got SEP module working for excel. Download it it will answer your questions!
Got SEP module working for excel. Download it it will answer your questions!
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Originally Posted by landsoul
- Armor Penetration from executioner is worth less since armor of mobs is higher, and because any ArP on your gear reduces its value.
What? no. ArP gets better the more you have, still. If you modify the value of armor penetration, it also modifies the value of agility, strength, or whatever the hell. What you are saying is like saying haste is the best stat cause it scales with windfury better, and haste is one of the worst ones. Are you using TG shaa? its showing dbl executioner for me a lot better on high armor boss (and thusly leveling) and only a little behind like 10 dps with dbl mongoose off on low. Can you upload your setup so I can look at it? |
Btw, it's SHHA not SHAA
.I have real problem with your spreadsheet. ArP stat really seem extremely high, and I cant really nail down the problem. ArP in general seems way too good in it. I understand TG doesnt have deep wounds, but neither did pre-3.0 warrior dps.
1700 ArP before patch was about enough to reduce 6200-boss armor to zero (imp expose, FF, Reck)
Thats going from 86.13% damage to 100% damage. = 16.1% increase.
Now 1700 old ArP = 1700/51.4 = 33%.
6200 boss is usually around 3k armor now. Armor Pen puts it at 2k.
Thats going from 77.87% reduction to 84.07% aka 8% increase.
Armor Pen value is halved.
Now pre-3.0 my Sep Values were around
1 STR
0.63 AGI
0.9 CRIT
0.85 HASTE
1.4 ArP.
I understand ArP value might have changed independently due to a bit different mechanics of TG. But honestly, 1.4/2 = 0.7. Its just hard to believe it really ends up higher then str in your sheet. Somewhat TG mechanics made ArP twice as effective? And in situation when there is LESS buffs to AP, so STR should be actually worth more?
It doesnt look THAT bad for higher armor bosses, but still the fact that basically ArP is often MORE of a "king of stats" now in your spreadsheet is disturbing. No matter what other stats are there, basically ArP items seem to always pull ahead.
Noticed that the tooltip for rend shows it dealing less dmg if you're hasted. Haven't seen if it really ticks for less or if it's just a tooltip bug. Can anyone confirm?
I'm definetly with Shha on this one, and I've done a bit of the math to prove it to myself.
(Math)
Lets take for the sake of comparison a level 70 boss with low armor (6200). Under the new system the total debuffed armor from raid buffs that boss will be is 2150 (w/ executioner proc).
Now using the armor reduction reduction formula.... % mitigation = x / [x + 10557.5]
I calculated the following mitigation percents for the new system.
2150 armor = 16.92%
+50 ArP rating
2004.73 armor = 15.96%
+100 ArP rating
1859.46 armor = 14.98%
+150 ArP rating
1714.19 armor = 13.97%
From this we can see that the gains from 50 arp rating sequentially are... .96%, .98%, and 1.01%. This proves that ArP is still a scaling stat in that the more we stack the better it is. However, this scaling as we know has been drastically cut back. The second derivite gains are nearly even in this system. Now lets compare that to the old system under the same conditions.
2150 armor = 16.92%
+350 ArP
1800 armor = 14.57%
+700 ArP
1450 armor = 12.08%
+1050 ArP
1100 armor = 9.44%
Our sequential gains are... 2.35%, 2.49%, 2.64%. So not only is Shha right in his ballpark estimate hes underestimating the devaluing of this stat in the low armor range as its closer to 40% of its original value.
(/math)
Now my calculations with higher armor values show the same trend but in a less drastic fashion as ArP is less effective as a whole with high armor values. However, the old system still rains supreme in all cases. (see 3.0 Dps warrior spreadsheet for my full posting of this). So I played around with Landsoul's speadsheet like he suggested by first plugging in the highest dps set for TG I could fit then adding ArP vs strength. I did this on a high armor value and ArP smoked strength (the set had around 2650 unbuffed ap and 33% ArP). This just seems off to me, and while I've actually convinced myself that ArP is not a horrible stat, I'm almost certain that its not the best stat.
(Math)
Lets take for the sake of comparison a level 70 boss with low armor (6200). Under the new system the total debuffed armor from raid buffs that boss will be is 2150 (w/ executioner proc).
Now using the armor reduction reduction formula.... % mitigation = x / [x + 10557.5]
I calculated the following mitigation percents for the new system.
2150 armor = 16.92%
+50 ArP rating
2004.73 armor = 15.96%
+100 ArP rating
1859.46 armor = 14.98%
+150 ArP rating
1714.19 armor = 13.97%
From this we can see that the gains from 50 arp rating sequentially are... .96%, .98%, and 1.01%. This proves that ArP is still a scaling stat in that the more we stack the better it is. However, this scaling as we know has been drastically cut back. The second derivite gains are nearly even in this system. Now lets compare that to the old system under the same conditions.
2150 armor = 16.92%
+350 ArP
1800 armor = 14.57%
+700 ArP
1450 armor = 12.08%
+1050 ArP
1100 armor = 9.44%
Our sequential gains are... 2.35%, 2.49%, 2.64%. So not only is Shha right in his ballpark estimate hes underestimating the devaluing of this stat in the low armor range as its closer to 40% of its original value.
(/math)
Now my calculations with higher armor values show the same trend but in a less drastic fashion as ArP is less effective as a whole with high armor values. However, the old system still rains supreme in all cases. (see 3.0 Dps warrior spreadsheet for my full posting of this). So I played around with Landsoul's speadsheet like he suggested by first plugging in the highest dps set for TG I could fit then adding ArP vs strength. I did this on a high armor value and ArP smoked strength (the set had around 2650 unbuffed ap and 33% ArP). This just seems off to me, and while I've actually convinced myself that ArP is not a horrible stat, I'm almost certain that its not the best stat.
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Originally Posted by Daronsk
I'm definetly with Shha on this one, and I've done a bit of the math to prove it to myself.
(Math) Lets take for the sake of comparison a level 70 boss with low armor (6200). Under the new system the total debuffed armor from raid buffs that boss will be is 2150 (w/ executioner proc). Now using the armor reduction reduction formula.... % mitigation = x / [x + 10557.5] I calculated the following mitigation percents for the new system. 2150 armor = 16.92% +50 ArP rating 2004.73 armor = 15.96% +100 ArP rating 1859.46 armor = 14.98% +150 ArP rating 1714.19 armor = 13.97% From this we can see that the gains from 50 arp rating sequentially are... .96%, .98%, and 1.01%. This proves that ArP is still a scaling stat in that the more we stack the better it is. However, this scaling as we know has been drastically cut back. The second derivite gains are nearly even in this system. Now lets compare that to the old system under the same conditions. 2150 armor = 16.92% +350 ArP 1800 armor = 14.57% +700 ArP 1450 armor = 12.08% +1050 ArP 1100 armor = 9.44% Our sequential gains are... 2.35%, 2.49%, 2.64%. So not only is Shha right in his ballpark estimate hes underestimating the devaluing of this stat in the low armor range as its closer to 40% of its original value. (/math) Now my calculations with higher armor values show the same trend but in a less drastic fashion as ArP is less effective as a whole with high armor values. However, the old system still rains supreme in all cases. (see 3.0 Dps warrior spreadsheet for my full posting of this). So I played around with Landsoul's speadsheet like he suggested by first plugging in the highest dps set for TG I could fit then adding ArP vs strength. I did this on a high armor value and ArP smoked strength (the set had around 2650 unbuffed ap and 33% ArP). This just seems off to me, and while I've actually convinced myself that ArP is not a horrible stat, I'm almost certain that its not the best stat. |
The concept you are not seeing is that if you lower the power of ArP which is what happened in 3.0, this means that every other stat you have will also do less damage. They do not do the same damage. For example, if before 3.0 20 ArP got 28 dps and 20 STR got 20 dps, after 3.0 that same 20 str will do less than 20 dps, because of how the new calculations for armor penetration works. Also, we do much more base damage in general, and ArP is a percentage scaling based stat. Instead of doing 2k damage in general we are doing 3k+. The percentage gains are more for 3k than they are for 2k. Armor penetration effectiveness is not reduced by half when you look at the big picture. You have to consider everything when you compare both pre 3.0 and post 3.0 and quite frankly you both aren't.. You can't think of it that way because that's not how simple it is. Warrior dps is much much more multidimensional. If I did not know this, I wouldn't be backing myself up so frivilously. I will continue to do so as long as you keep posting these incomplete mathematical representations.
I Read the last 2 Pages about TG vs old Cookie Cuter, what about Arms?
I did 3250 DPS on Brut with Blade of Harbringers (Axe Spec) and 2 SW T6 Rest was BT/Badge Gear. Focusing on Crit and having Mungoose. I got infight 55-60% Crit in Battle Stance. Had 6 Agi on EoS Feet then, now got T6 Feet with Surefooted. Cant remember how good Raidbuffs were.
Could i do more DPS with Cats & BoH with TG Spec, i got enough Items to get Hit over 200. (381 without Sockets if i Want, but loosing lots of Crit/Expertise)
Or Cookie Cuter with Slow/Slow?
We had Cookie Cuter with us who had 2800 DPS a bit less gear but not much, i was First on the meters, CC and other Arms were about the Same and shared 2nd and 3rd.
I did 3250 DPS on Brut with Blade of Harbringers (Axe Spec) and 2 SW T6 Rest was BT/Badge Gear. Focusing on Crit and having Mungoose. I got infight 55-60% Crit in Battle Stance. Had 6 Agi on EoS Feet then, now got T6 Feet with Surefooted. Cant remember how good Raidbuffs were.
Could i do more DPS with Cats & BoH with TG Spec, i got enough Items to get Hit over 200. (381 without Sockets if i Want, but loosing lots of Crit/Expertise)
Or Cookie Cuter with Slow/Slow?
We had Cookie Cuter with us who had 2800 DPS a bit less gear but not much, i was First on the meters, CC and other Arms were about the Same and shared 2nd and 3rd.
Thats very true and is more or less what I have been looking for. However, I wouldn't say that my math is incomplete in the sense that it accomplishes what I set out to prove. That comparing the old ArP system to the new ArP system, the old system is vastly better. This isn't to say that ArP isin't the best stat or the worst stat, but simply shows that if blizzard haden't changed the system that the warriors would benefit much more from flat static armor reductions. Of course this rule of thumb we all knew from the start and all the math proves is how much worse it is.
The implications of this lead me to believe that ArP may be sufficiently weakend as a stat to consider 1) not gemming around it, and 2) Gearing away from it. This is where your big picture comes into play as we have to consider all the stats and comparing them to each other. I have not looked at the gains the other stats give but I suspect you may be right in this regards. Take stength for example...
str -> adds a flat damage increase to white damage, and a damage increase as the ap gained effects your effective weapon damage. What scales with this stat is rage gain.
What we come down to at this point is we know that ArP still scales, but scales far less fast. It would be interesting at this to see now an arguement that either the other stats do not scale(as I've more or less reasoned out with strength) or that they scale slower then ArP.
[All comments in regards to TG @ 70]
The implications of this lead me to believe that ArP may be sufficiently weakend as a stat to consider 1) not gemming around it, and 2) Gearing away from it. This is where your big picture comes into play as we have to consider all the stats and comparing them to each other. I have not looked at the gains the other stats give but I suspect you may be right in this regards. Take stength for example...
str -> adds a flat damage increase to white damage, and a damage increase as the ap gained effects your effective weapon damage. What scales with this stat is rage gain.
What we come down to at this point is we know that ArP still scales, but scales far less fast. It would be interesting at this to see now an arguement that either the other stats do not scale(as I've more or less reasoned out with strength) or that they scale slower then ArP.
[All comments in regards to TG @ 70]
You are a bit deluded here though Landsoul.
Ive proven above that just % gain from ArP is lower now. Lets see about STR now.
Bloodthirst dps - STR went UP in effectiveness since average ap went down (from not stacking str scrolls, might and shouts etc)
"weapon damage dps" Again our weapon based dps went down while str adds a static amount there. Our higher dps comes from higher crit ratings, and similiar effects. Damage of swings is about same or lower - so str is MORE effective here % wise.
Execute dps - again STR now affects dps of executes more directly.
In short - same amount of str gives MORE of a PERCENTAGE based dps boost. Same amount of ArP gives LESS of a PERCENTAGE based dps boost. So str should be a lot better then ArP.
And now the best part is. I watched how much my dps changed based on items , and sort of blindly assumed the "SEP" values posted above are right - since like I said ArP items seem to end up much higher for me. However now i run more and more tests on spreadsheet and came to a conclusion:
a) SEPs posted above are "bogus" for my stats. STR for me is almost 50% more powerful then ArP - so it seems its correct here.
b) The low value of the non-arp items comes from low value of hit and haste - not the high value of ArP. Apparently hit and haste lost a lot of value from pre-3.0 (even though they werent that high in first place). I can understand that hit past the 14% cap is worth less - higher rage generation gives us heroic on really every swing+ more contribution of instants. Haste is the same - more contribution of instants is one thing - but more importantly the best TG weapons are currently giving a lot of haste themselves. Not trying for haste at all im closing to 400 in that regard.
Thats more "acceptable". In fact STR is so high ahead of our other stats for me, nothing else (crit included) comes close - at least until deep wounds/impale makes it back into the play.
My SEP values
STR = 1.0
ArP = 0.65
Crit = 0.75
Hit = 0.2 - yes THAT low (Obviously after cap)
Haste - 0.5
Its simply because of overinflated rage generation imo. Hit and Haste were our large contributors to rage generation. So was crit. With TG it seems we are basically doomed to be rage capped in the long run, and rage just stopped to be a factor (even doing heroics every swing). I made math already in wotlk preview thread showing that with average stats at 80, OH alone will be enough to fuel Heroics on every MH swing + every instant, with 50% rage overflow. That is with full epic gear etc.
Thats why rage generating stats lost so much appeal with TG, and only ones left are ArP/Str. Since we lack impale/DW , crit is low for the time being , although it will catch up to other 2 come 80.
Ive proven above that just % gain from ArP is lower now. Lets see about STR now.
Bloodthirst dps - STR went UP in effectiveness since average ap went down (from not stacking str scrolls, might and shouts etc)
"weapon damage dps" Again our weapon based dps went down while str adds a static amount there. Our higher dps comes from higher crit ratings, and similiar effects. Damage of swings is about same or lower - so str is MORE effective here % wise.
Execute dps - again STR now affects dps of executes more directly.
In short - same amount of str gives MORE of a PERCENTAGE based dps boost. Same amount of ArP gives LESS of a PERCENTAGE based dps boost. So str should be a lot better then ArP.
And now the best part is. I watched how much my dps changed based on items , and sort of blindly assumed the "SEP" values posted above are right - since like I said ArP items seem to end up much higher for me. However now i run more and more tests on spreadsheet and came to a conclusion:
a) SEPs posted above are "bogus" for my stats. STR for me is almost 50% more powerful then ArP - so it seems its correct here.
b) The low value of the non-arp items comes from low value of hit and haste - not the high value of ArP. Apparently hit and haste lost a lot of value from pre-3.0 (even though they werent that high in first place). I can understand that hit past the 14% cap is worth less - higher rage generation gives us heroic on really every swing+ more contribution of instants. Haste is the same - more contribution of instants is one thing - but more importantly the best TG weapons are currently giving a lot of haste themselves. Not trying for haste at all im closing to 400 in that regard.
Thats more "acceptable". In fact STR is so high ahead of our other stats for me, nothing else (crit included) comes close - at least until deep wounds/impale makes it back into the play.
My SEP values
STR = 1.0
ArP = 0.65
Crit = 0.75
Hit = 0.2 - yes THAT low (Obviously after cap)
Haste - 0.5
Its simply because of overinflated rage generation imo. Hit and Haste were our large contributors to rage generation. So was crit. With TG it seems we are basically doomed to be rage capped in the long run, and rage just stopped to be a factor (even doing heroics every swing). I made math already in wotlk preview thread showing that with average stats at 80, OH alone will be enough to fuel Heroics on every MH swing + every instant, with 50% rage overflow. That is with full epic gear etc.
Thats why rage generating stats lost so much appeal with TG, and only ones left are ArP/Str. Since we lack impale/DW , crit is low for the time being , although it will catch up to other 2 come 80.
Edited onPatch 2.4.3
Does anyone have a "ballpark" amount of stats to go for with Titan's Grip? I don't have a lot of the gear you guys are running with but know I could certainly do much better with what I have:
Armory
Given the conversations here, I'm still not all that clear what stats I should focus most on. Any constructive tips would be appreciated.
Armory
Given the conversations here, I'm still not all that clear what stats I should focus most on. Any constructive tips would be appreciated.
Last edited by Sydar : 11/05/08 at 5:28 PM.
Edited onPatch 2.4.3
It appears you guys are talking about low armor bosses while I am talking about high armor bosses. They are indeed quite different. Our arguments are futile because we're not all talking about the same thing, myself, Shha and Daronsk. You are definitely correct that STR is much more powerful than ArP for a low armor boss.
My perspective is coming from the fact that we're going to be leveling in 8 days and that there won't be any armor debuffs on mostly anything we are trying to kill until raids. It doesn't make sense to continue to gear for low armor bosses because they are not progression related. You are going to be spending dozens of hours whacking on stuff thats going to have increasingly more and more armor. Not to mention at 80 comes the return of high armor bosses, in a sense that they increased all armor of bosses in beta by 10% to help level the physical to caster DPS curves. Would you argue that STR will be better than ArP on a boss with 12k armor?
edit: actually, ArP shines over strength while levelling, however on a 12k armor boss @80 and @80 talents I didn't see ArP performing very well versus strength, possibly more due to the introduction of bleeds.
My perspective is coming from the fact that we're going to be leveling in 8 days and that there won't be any armor debuffs on mostly anything we are trying to kill until raids. It doesn't make sense to continue to gear for low armor bosses because they are not progression related. You are going to be spending dozens of hours whacking on stuff thats going to have increasingly more and more armor. Not to mention at 80 comes the return of high armor bosses, in a sense that they increased all armor of bosses in beta by 10% to help level the physical to caster DPS curves. Would you argue that STR will be better than ArP on a boss with 12k armor?
edit: actually, ArP shines over strength while levelling, however on a 12k armor boss @80 and @80 talents I didn't see ArP performing very well versus strength, possibly more due to the introduction of bleeds.
Last edited by landsoul : 11/05/08 at 6:18 PM.
I've been lurking here for around a year now, and I must say, you guys do deliver.
However I've taken an extra interest in the Cookie Cutter spec, DW-rest fury, or the so called "lower Cookie Cutter" spec, where you get 8 points in prot, 15 in arms and rest in fury. I have to say this spec really do deliver, not as high as 2hander spec does for trash, but on most boss-fights it really does. However I went with a PuG today, to Hyjal Summit. I instantly noticed that DW is somewhat changed, it does far less dmg. I'm having problems stacking it to 3k, while I post 3.03 I with little ease managed to pull it up to 5k per tick. I see a significant loss in DPS, going down from 3k on bosses, to 2k on the same bosses. I have the exact same buffs, 60% crit raidbuffed with mongoose proccs. I've tried to find valid information about this, but blizzard seems to have left none. Any clue if this is a stealth nerf or whatnot?
However I've taken an extra interest in the Cookie Cutter spec, DW-rest fury, or the so called "lower Cookie Cutter" spec, where you get 8 points in prot, 15 in arms and rest in fury. I have to say this spec really do deliver, not as high as 2hander spec does for trash, but on most boss-fights it really does. However I went with a PuG today, to Hyjal Summit. I instantly noticed that DW is somewhat changed, it does far less dmg. I'm having problems stacking it to 3k, while I post 3.03 I with little ease managed to pull it up to 5k per tick. I see a significant loss in DPS, going down from 3k on bosses, to 2k on the same bosses. I have the exact same buffs, 60% crit raidbuffed with mongoose proccs. I've tried to find valid information about this, but blizzard seems to have left none. Any clue if this is a stealth nerf or whatnot?
How could you miss the 2+ pages talking about the normalization of deep wounds?
Oh my, must be blind.
Now that that's clarified, Any suggestion to specs that doesn't mean mainstream TG or same old Arms tree? Is it still worth keeping the DW slow Mh, fast OH, stacking crit, etc?
Now that that's clarified, Any suggestion to specs that doesn't mean mainstream TG or same old Arms tree? Is it still worth keeping the DW slow Mh, fast OH, stacking crit, etc?
Rotations
Do we have any consensus on what the preferred rotation will be for Wrath with the new 5 second bloodthirst? I'm currently in sunwell and trying both WW->BT and the old style BT->WW and it seems that leading with bloodthirst is a lot smoother. I don't get gcd clips with bloodsurged slams leading with BT and the rotation is shorter. However, one WW does more damage than one BT (I believe), any thoughts?
I am using a basic rotation of:
BT--GCD(possibly a slam)--WW--0.5 sec for computer and brainlag--BT--GCD(possibly a slam)--GCD--0.5 sec for computer and brainlag
That should always allow you to use BT and WW on CD, leaves .5 seconds for reaction time and lag, and even if bloodsurge procs twice in 10 seconds, you still have a free GCD.
BT--GCD(possibly a slam)--WW--0.5 sec for computer and brainlag--BT--GCD(possibly a slam)--GCD--0.5 sec for computer and brainlag
That should always allow you to use BT and WW on CD, leaves .5 seconds for reaction time and lag, and even if bloodsurge procs twice in 10 seconds, you still have a free GCD.
That's what I've been using and I like it more than prioritizing whirlwind, I think I'll stick with it unless math backs up something else.
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Originally Posted by landsoul
edit: actually, ArP shines over strength while levelling, however on a 12k armor boss @80 and @80 talents I didn't see ArP performing very well versus strength, possibly more due to the introduction of bleeds.
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Originally Posted by Sydar
Does anyone have a "ballpark" amount of stats to go for with Titan's Grip? I don't have a lot of the gear you guys are running with but know I could certainly do much better with what I have:
Armory Given the conversations here, I'm still not all that clear what stats I should focus most on. Any constructive tips would be appreciated. |
So I'd replace the 10 hitrating gem in your T6 pants for starters. And perhaps look around if there are nice/better items to replace some of your hit gear.
On rotations, it doesn't matter which you prioritize first really, the cooldowns dont overlap and you can always delay your bloodsurge. Whirlwind hits harder yes but also bloodthirst has the potential to do yield more damage with bloodsurge. Whatever skill you hit first, the rest of your rotation will get in line.
@ArP: Does ArP count total boss armor or actual armor?
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Originally Posted by landsoul
On rotations, it doesn't matter which you prioritize first really, the cooldowns dont overlap and you can always delay your bloodsurge. Whirlwind hits harder yes but also bloodthirst has the potential to do yield more damage with bloodsurge. Whatever skill you hit first, the rest of your rotation will get in line.
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Originally Posted by Wrata
@ArP: Does ArP count total boss armor or actual armor?
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I'm not sure yet (not enough data atm) if executioner is calculated before ArP on gear, but the difference on low armor boss would be bigger than on high armor bosses.
Can you please stop asking questions that have been answered like five times already? Think and search before posting, especially it you aren't a regular poster. We aren't your personal advisors. This forum can only provide valuable information because craptastic posts get punished.
To the rest: Stop answering those noob questions and just report them. Do you want to add three unnessecary answers to every dumb question? It's just spam.
To the rest: Stop answering those noob questions and just report them. Do you want to add three unnessecary answers to every dumb question? It's just spam.
What does more dps? 2/2 impale with 1handers or titan's grip without imaple?
[Warrior] Fury DPS Spreadsheet for 3.0
Got SEP module working for excel. Download it it will answer your questions!
Got SEP module working for excel. Download it it will answer your questions!